89 | Healing Through Psychedelics and Holistic Living (with Stephanie Graves) - See You On The Other Side

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, everyone, welcome back to another episode
of See you on the Other Side.
We are so excited we haveStephanie Graves here with us
today, and we were talkingbefore we started recording.
But you have a lot of titlesunder your belt, so I'm going to
have you introduce yourself tothe listeners and tell the

(00:22):
listeners a little bit of whatyou do to the listeners and tell
the listeners a little bit ofwhat you do Awesome.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Thank you so much for having me.
Yes, so I'm Stephanie and bytrade I am a physician assistant
.
However, my real passion is mywork as a functional medicine
nutritionist, psychedelicintegration coach and cacao
practitioner.
I am also a wife and mom offour who my homeschool.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
What Okay, I didn't know that part.
You just added another layer.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
We're going to have to talk after this because I am
seriously questioninghomeschooling like so much, but
that can be a topic for anotherday.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
We can do like part two yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Okay, so I don't even know where to start with this.
Can you start about?
Can you start with, like, whereyour journey started?
Yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'll give you my cliff notes version of the story
, so this being a podcastregarding psychedelics and all.
So my journey started aboutfive years ago.
At that time my husband wasstruggling severely with
alcoholism.
He'd been to AA and done rehaband those things weren't really

(01:39):
working.
He was sober yet was stillextremely depressed and even
suicidal.
So after a relapse it was sosevere that we had to do
something like urgently.
So a friend mentioned ayahuascaand at that time we were so
desperate I was like let's shipyou to a foreign country,

(02:00):
absolutely Like whatever needsto be done to address this
problem, like please.
And after that one experienceit was completely life-changing
for him.
It just opened his eyes up tothis new life in front of him
and new way of thinking andfeeling and healing.
And from that one experience itreally just started him on this

(02:22):
path of using psychedelics toheal.
Experience it really juststarted him on this path of
using psychedelics to healHappened to report.
He's five plus years sober andmyself, being someone who's very
self-motivated, before my eyesI saw him growing and changing
and evolving.
So I was like if he's goingplaces, I'm going with him.

(02:43):
So I'll give this thing a try.
And yeah, that's what reallystarted my journey using
psychedelics to heal.
At that time I'd been working asa PA and was pretty unsatisfied
with my job because I was justdoing what everyone else was and
is doing Western medicine.
It's just how many patients canyou see in a day?
What's your problem?
Here's your medication, here'syour refill onto the next one,

(03:05):
and I didn't really feel like Iwas actually helping people.
I'd also been struggling withdaily debilitating abdominal
pain and bloating, profoundfatigue, to the point having to
take two naps a day dizziness,chronic anxiety and, most
notably, was without a menstrualcycle for about 20 years.
So, you know, sought my primaryyeah, not normal, sought my

(03:30):
primary.
And they did what everyone elseagain go see this specialist,
take this medication.
Much like my husband,traditional methods weren't
working for me.
So as I started to usepsychedelics, very clearly was
able to peel back the layers ofthe onion and understand all of

(03:51):
these physical manifestationswere basically these unaddressed
emotions I had just stuffed myentire life.
For me, it was easier just topush things down than to address
them.
Um, especially when my husbandwas actively drinking, it's like
I'll just go for a three hourrun instead of have to worry
about what's actually happening,you know, in home life.

(04:12):
Um so, uh, my first integrationcoach was actually a functional
nutritionist, so she's the onewho opened me up to this new way
of medicine.
And, um so I, I started mytraining and I completed that,
and it was so eyeopening to beable to learn basically
everything I learned in PAschool through a different lens,
through a functional lens andone that honestly makes sense.

(04:37):
So, through very mindful andintentional changes in my diet
and lifestyle, along with agreat facilitation of plant
medicines, was able tocompletely eradicate all of
those physical symptoms that Ihad been managing and struggling
with for so long.
And about two years ago, I gotmy menstrual cycle back, which

(04:58):
was a huge life accomplishmentfor me, something I never
thought was possible.
And then, after just a coupleof cycles not intentionally, but
we got pregnant and conceivedour fourth baby.
My previous three pregnancieswere all through fertility
treatments, so really just atestament to what is possible

(05:20):
when healing to the completecore and root is achieved Wow.
So that's my story, and now Iget to support others and pay it
forward and as they go throughtheir experiences, either using
psychedelics or with nutrition,because, again, they've greatly

(05:48):
impacted my life and myhusband's life and our families,
ultimately so that we can dobetter for our children.
So we're super passionate aboutthis field.
So now again, being able to payit forward and working in
alignment with really myauthenticity feels really great.

Speaker 1 (06:02):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (06:03):
I have so much I want to say I do too.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
Do you want to go first or do you want me to go
first?
You go first, okay.
So the first question that Iwanted to ask is with us and our
families, we are the ones whostarted the journey.
Where, with your family, yourhusband is the one who started
the journey and you watched himchange.
Can you elaborate on what youmean by that?

(06:28):
Like when he came back from hisayahuasca retreat, like, what
did you see?
What transformation did you see?

Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah, I think after his first ayahuasca was the most
profound, like he literallyjust came to life, like those
six months after he had like theayahuasca glow and just was so
present with life and motivatedand, you know, really just
wanting to take charge of hislife, versus just kind of
sitting on the sidelines andletting everything pile on and

(06:56):
happen to him.
He also was starting to feel alot and moving through a lot of
emotions and a lot of grief.
He's lost two brothers toaddiction, so the weight of that
really hit him after that andbeing able to properly grieve
and then just really telling meabout his experiences, I was so
curious and he went to oneceremony where there was a

(07:20):
husband and wife couple thereand he thought that was so
interesting and spoke with themand they basically said like I
don't know how you could do thiswork without your partner being
on board.
More or less you know, one ofthem is healing, the other one's
not, and just said howbeautiful it was to see them
together in ceremony, likeeither before or during and

(07:42):
after.
So he really wanted to bring meto the same community and
introduced me to it and justwith my first journey certainly
I was a little nervous before,but once the medicine came on it
was like okay, this is where Ibelong, like this is amazing,
like when are we doing this?
Like when, like this ishappening, like we need to form

(08:02):
our own community and we'regoing to do this?

Speaker 3 (08:06):
So I feel like there's this like common theme
with, like anybody who has theseprofound experiences, where
they come out and they're likewhy is no one talking about this
?
Where are the people doing this?
Everybody deserves this.
Like there needs to be moreeducation, more access, safer
routes to go about.
Like I also sorry, I didn'tmean to cut you off if you were

(08:29):
still talking no, you're good,no and yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
And I mean after I'm, like you know, texting the
facilitators, theco-facilitators, and just like
brainstorming, like how to growthis just after that one.
And that's just kind of speaksinto my personality too.
Once I get excited, I'mpassionate about something.
It's like full steam ahead.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
Do you know what your human design is?

Speaker 2 (08:49):
I don't.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
Okay, I love that.
That's like a question we askeverybody now.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Maybe I should find out, though we can help you with
that.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
You should look into that.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
Yeah, so I can relate on so many levels because my
husband also an alcoholic.
He's three years sober and Ithink there is this very
misunderstood language aroundthe use of psychedelics when you
are speaking to addicts.
We have had a very terribleinterview gone wrong with

(09:22):
someone who owned a rehabfacility who was very, very
against psychedelic use becausehe used to do psychedelics and
he knows how bad they can be andin the height of his addiction
he did a lot of acid, you know.
So I think that there is thisvery large misunderstanding
because in my experience, like Ithink a lot of people are

(09:44):
afraid to touch it because it'sanother drug and while I think
in the height of addiction itcan be used in that way and not
intentionally used, I thinkusing it intentionally with the
purpose of like healing andmaybe finding out why you are an
addict is like a very differentthing.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
So, yeah, absolutely, people get really triggered by
that Like it was definitely aslippery slope at times.
It was like is he, are youchasing like the high, like the
expansion, um, or are youactually taking time to
integrate what it is that you'relearning or the insights that
are coming in?
And I think there needs to be alot of education too,

(10:26):
particularly like with MDMA,because, again from his
experience, the low basicallyputs you back in that wound and
it can be really really hard andtriggering for people if they
don't have proper support orthey don't understand and
they're at this like bottomagain that it can be a really
vulnerable place for someonewith, um, you know, a substance

(10:46):
abuse addiction, um, to maybefall back into that.
And I mean honestly.
I mean I wouldn't say everyone,but a lot of people have
addictions.
It just looks different Likefor me it was exercise and again
I used to run marathons to notfeel my pain.
Some people are shopping, somepeople gambling or sex or eating

(11:10):
, whatever it is.
It just looks different and Ithink there's just a bigger
stigma obviously around peoplethat are using substances to
cope with their pain.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, you're exactly right, We've talked about that a
lot.
Like you shopped a lot for me,I was in the fitness industry
and so I struggled with bulimia,anorexia, overexercising, body
dysmorphia Like I went into thefitness industry because I had

(11:40):
these issues with my body andwith control and all of that.
So it's, it is, it's it's.
We don't talk about thosethings, but we do talk about
addiction and I think we allhave a lot of addictions or
unhealthy coping mechanisms todeal with things that we don't
want to really deal with.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
Yeah, Unfortunately, most people don't get like
addicted to celery.
It doesn't really, you know.

Speaker 3 (12:02):
I wish I was addicted to celery.
Come on, I can't be addicted tobroccoli and all the good stuff
and protein Like what's up withthat?

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Go ahead.
So I was going to ask you aboutthen.
Okay, so he had this experience, you watched him evolve and
change, and then can you talk tous about that first experience?
Cause I do feel like I mean,I've had a lot of profound
experiences, but the firstjourney that I had was with

(12:34):
psilocybin and I was like, holyshit, this is what self-love is
Like.
I really am embodying it.
So I want to hear about, hearabout.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
So, again, I was in a very small, intimate group and
my husband was there too, and,yeah, there wasn't much for like
visuals I mean, usually yourfirst experience there's not a
ton of visuals, but the messagewas very clear and it was the
war is over.
And for me, I'd been someonewho is, like, always running and
very type A and suffered fromsevere adrenal fatigue and

(13:08):
burnout, like that's basicallywhat all my physical
manifestations were as a resultof, so you know, commuting.
I was at that time commuting anhour each way, working 12 hour
shifts, three kids, four andunder.
I was also running a travelblog, like I said, running
marathons, all this crazy stuff.
So it was really clear that Ididn't have to do that anymore,

(13:31):
like that wasn't serving me, andit was just such a relief just
to be there and be surrounded bythese people that I'd, on paper
, like we're very different from, but like connected with, and
felt very safe, um, safe withand um, yeah, I mean it was just
.
It was exactly what I needed.

(13:52):
And then just that rest, to havethat time to do nothing.
And even I remember thebeforehand, the night before, in
the hotel room, my husband andI usually, like I was working a
side business or I was workingon the travel blog, I would be
doing something, cause I wasalways doing something and that
night before the journey, wejust like sat in bed and watched
TV and I was like, wow, this isdifferent, but it feels nice

(14:17):
just to rest.
So that was just kind of apreview, so just really having
that time with the medicine toreally just lay down and check
out of mom mode and work modeand all the things, and just be
there with myself and givemyself that medicine that I
needed, which was rest and a lotmore of it coming.
But even again, on the otherside, once I got out of it, just

(14:39):
it was such a positiveexperience that I knew that this
was something that we weregoing to, it was going to be a
very big part of our lives andthat we were going to continue
to do so.
It was like, okay, um, what'snext?
Was it ayahuasca?
Uh, no, um, it was, um, mdmaand some other plants.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Okay, that was another.
I was going to ask the samething.
I want to go.
So we just had an interviewcome out last week with a
functional medicine.
Is that what she?
Is that the name?

Speaker 1 (15:14):
She's a naturopath, thank you.

Speaker 3 (15:17):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
There's so many different variations.

Speaker 3 (15:20):
Yes, and we did not discuss psychedelics.
So when we were talking today,I was like I love bridging this
gap because very similar, likefinding the root cause,
backgrounds.
But I want to talk about thisbecause it's something I didn't
ask her.
We were talking about how tofix your gut health, how to fix
adrenals like all of this, theissues that happen when your

(15:42):
liver isn't functioning properly, what anger can do for your
body, what grief does to yourbody, and like fixing all of
these things.
The one thing I walked awaywishing I had asked was and I'm
going to relate this back to youand your husband in a second Um
, how much can you fix of thosethings?

(16:03):
How much can you fix of yourgut functioning properly, your
liver functioning properly, yourskin clearing up all of these
internal things, if you arestill in, let's say, the
relationship with your husbandbefore he was sober?

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, no, I would say that that would not be feasible
because and not even to mentionand thank you for bringing that
up how much our relationshiphas grown through healing
together.
I mean before, when you know,just five years ago, like we
didn't communicate and yeah, wejust there was hardly a

(16:46):
relationship.
You know, we knew that we lovedeach other but there was no
real connection there.
So for my personal experienceagain, I was suffering later to
find out when I went through myfunctional training, from severe
adrenal fatigue and burnout,from chronic years of again just
always going and type A,overexercising, undereating, all

(17:09):
the things, and then also, so,at its core, adrenal fatigue
stems from chronic stress.
So stress comes in so manydifferent forms, like I said.
So stress comes in so manydifferent forms, like I said,
overexercising, under eating,not sleeping, just, you know,
having a very busy schedule, andthen also emotional stressors

(17:31):
to financial stress, unhealedtraumas.
So our body and my beliefstores all of these unhealed
traumas and emotions and ifthey're not addressed then
really true healing can occur.
So if you're still runningmarathons or under eating, or

(17:53):
you're still in a toxicrelationship or you're working
the stressful job, your body'sstill in some form of fight or
flight mode and that's survivalmode and you can sustain that
for some period of time.
You know a bear is chasing you,it's helpful, but again, after
years and decades of being insurvival mode, eventually your
adrenal glands burn out andthat's when you start developing

(18:15):
these different physicalmanifestations, like I was.
So when the body is in thatfight or flight sympathetic mode
, really true healing can'toccur because the body is again
prioritizing survival, notthriving or healing really.
And that's also a reason why,looking back, I was not able to

(18:35):
have a period or get pregnant,because, again, when the body is
in survival mode, it's likethis isn't a great idea to bring
another life into the world,right.
But once I was able to addressmy internal terrain and diet and
lifestyle through a myriad offactors and then really

(18:56):
understand why I was the waythat I was, my body was able to
flip into more of thatparasympathetic healing mode and
then my body felt safe and someof these things could calm down
.
Um, so yeah, I hope thatanswered the question.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
Absolutely, cause I we say often like you can take a
fish out of dirty water, get ithealthy, but like to put that
fish back into the same fishtank.
It's not going to take long forthat fish to get sick again.
So you can work on all of thesephysical symptoms and ailments
and finding the root of them.
But unless you're really trulyfocusing on fixing the situation

(19:39):
, that's like causing all thisstuff to go awry.
Yeah, it's not going to do muchlong term.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's even something I
recommend clients doing if theyare managing this, one of the
first things is really justmaking a list of all the
stressors in their life and justlooking at like, okay, what are
the things that are not servingme and how can I start
addressing them.
Because, again, yeah, healing,full healing can occur if there
is still stress or if the bodyis perceiving danger.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
Which is wild.
The wife of an alcoholic is nota calm way of living a life.
So yeah, looking back I waslike no fucking wonder I was
depressed all the time.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
But I think I'm glad that you're mentioning that,
because I do think that a lot ofpeople, we get a lot of people
who reach out to us and they'relike I'm struggling with
depression or I'm strugglingwith anxiety or I'm having these
body issues come up andsometimes you know, you start
talking to them and you're like,well, you know, you and your

(20:50):
husband are not connected,you're not doing what you want
to be doing.
You know you're, you're nothanging out with the job.
You hate your job, you're,you're, you're not hanging out
with people who are supportinglike your evolution and growth,
are supporting like yourevolution and growth.
But you point that all of thosethings out, that's a lot to

(21:15):
take in and it's a lot forpeople like it's hard for people
to let go of things sometimesor it's hard for people to like
want to do these substancesbecause it means that like you
can't see, unsee the thingsyou're about to see, and like
things are just going to come upto the surface.
If you do this medicine and ifyou're not willing to change

(21:38):
certain things in your life, itcan make it really hard.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah, yeah.
In my experience, the universejust continues to like poke at
the wound and make it moreuncomfortable.
And again for me and myphysical symptoms, it got to a
point where it was like this isundeniable, like something is
going on here, and I think it'ssomething like Tony Robbins has
something to the extent of likeyour desire to change has to be
greater than your desire to staythe same.

(22:02):
So, it's exactly right, like hasto be greater than your desire
to stay the same.
So it's exactly right Like doyou want to continue living this
like high stress, dysfunctionallifestyle, or do you want to
feel better and actually um healand have a better quality of
life for yourself and also yourfamily too?

Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, I think we're so conditioned to live a
stressful, busy too.
Yeah, I think we're soconditioned to live a stressful,
busy, unconnected life, and I,I hate that it's it's it's sad.
Okay, so you started in Westernmedicine and now you've
transitioned to plant medicine,a more holistic space.

(22:40):
Can you talk about, in youropinion, what the difference is
between both and why the moreholistic route has?
I mean, you've already kind ofshared but has better served you
?

Speaker 3 (22:55):
Or better, served anyone really yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Yeah Well, Western medicine they are merely
treating symptoms, so it's thispill for that problem.
They're not really taking thetime to understand the patient
or their story, to hear how itis that these physical symptoms
have come about and why.
Again, it's just this pill forthat problem, which isn't a good

(23:19):
long-term solution.
And not to mention that most ofthese medications haven't
really been studied forlong-term use yet.
People are on their Prilosec orantidepressants for years and
decades versus taking afunctional approach.
My first visit with a client isjust all their health history,
so one hour just learningeverything about them from birth

(23:43):
up until this moment of time.
So I really have a crystalclear picture of everything
that's true for them theirchildhood, what they were eating
, what they're eating now, theirlifestyle, sleep, travel,
traumas, et cetera, and thenmaking very individualized
recommendations regarding theirdiet and lifestyle in order to

(24:06):
reduce inflammation and reducestress in the body, to create an
environment that is moreconducive to healing.
There are some non-negotiablesin, in my opinion, for really
just anyone.
Once we address those, then itreally becomes okay.
Now, where are you still at?
What issues are you stillhaving?
How can we continue to tweakthings based on your specific

(24:28):
symptoms or issues that you'rehaving, so that again, we can
get clean everything up and inmy experience, diet and
lifestyle can take you very far.
And then it's with thepsychedelics that gives you that
like last piece to reallyunlock the why behind.
Okay, you've done all thesethings to clean up your diet and
supplements and lifestyle andhave you know better

(24:50):
relationships, but why are youanxious?
And then the psychedelics cangive you that answer.
Because I feel as though onceyou can understand something,
then you can heal from it.
And when I work with my clientstoo, and even my children,
being a homeschool teacher, Ifind that it's very important to
educate on the why, so thatpeople understand you know why

(25:10):
I'm asking them to make certainchanges.
So, again for me, being able toactually visualize myself as a
child and seeing what wasn'tworking for me and how this
anxiety and these disempoweringbeliefs of not being enough
really came about to be like, oh, that makes sense, I don't have
to carry that along anymore, Idon't have to, that doesn't have

(25:33):
to be my story.
Um, that doesn't have to be mystory, but um, without that I
feel like it would be reallyhard or you wouldn't be able to
get full resolution.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with that, yeah
.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
Uh, I'm so sorry.
I was like thinking about like,um, we, I've been showing up on
social media a lot lately in adifferent way and not in a good
way.
I've been getting triggered alot.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
Let's get into it.
Should I get into?

Speaker 3 (26:03):
it.
So there is this.
I guess he's an influencer,yeah, who posted a very making
fun of people who aremicrodosing post, who is very
misinformed.
He has millions of followers.
So it was like really upsetting, because I'm like listening to

(26:24):
this guy talk shit aboutpsychedelics and he's sober.
I think he's like 15 yearssober and that's like his thing
is like he's, he's very sober,he doesn't need drugs to feel
good and dah, dah, dah.
But I was like in the commentsection really feeling like I
was defending psychedelics inlike such a big way, cause

(26:48):
people are like they don'tchange your life, blah, blah,
blah.
And I'm like true, and so thisis what I kind of want to get
into, because I'm sure you seethis with your clients, like and
I'm sure that you probablytalked to your clients about
this before Like this is notsomething that is going to
change your life If you are notin a.
I used to be one of thosepeople who are like everybody

(27:08):
should do them.
The whole world needspsychedelics.
And then now I'm like actuallylike it can do a lot more damage
if you're not willing to change, if you are not in a healthy,
supportive, safe environment tomake those changes, if you don't
have a healthy support system,and so I can see both sides of

(27:29):
it now, which is frustratingbecause I'm, like in comment
sections, arguing with peoplenot really really argue.

Speaker 2 (27:35):
I don't call it arguing.
I call it.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
Informing and educating, yeah, but it's
frustrating because it's it's.
I see people who I think couldreally benefit from the medicine
, but then I see their home lifeand I'm like I don't know that
it would do that much good.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah, I feel like definitely there has to be
support and if there is a spouse, then they have to be a
thousand percent on board too,because if they're weary or
questionable about it, I justfeel like the person going under
the medicine isn't going tohave a great experience if
they're just being faced withlike a lot of fear and yeah.
So one of my jobs is I'mcollaborating and I work with a

(28:20):
local ketamine clinic and notonly do I provide the infusions
there but I also serve as anintegration coach.
So all of my clients, like yousaid, I let them know that again
.
My experience opinion, thepsychedelic is like the passive
healing, like that's the easypart.
It's really the integration islike 80% or more of the work

(28:42):
after.
It's what you do really withthese insights and these lessons
, visuals, whatever that youhave experienced during the
infusion and how you translatethat into um, into your life and
making new, healthier habits ornew relationships.
So people you know I've even hadsomeone say they're looking for

(29:02):
a quick fix.
This is not a quick fix, notfor you If you are doing any
psychedelic and then justpopping back into your old life
or like jumping back into work.
Essentially that was just moneyand time wasted, because not
much is really that.
The same patterns are stillgoing to be there, the same

(29:23):
triggers, and if you haven't, ifyou're not supported again.
That's why I really advocate forpeople to have a coach,
especially if it's their firsttime.
Then you're just kind of liketreading water and lost and you
have no idea like what'shappening or why, or what to do
next, or have really someone tosupport you along the journey.

(29:44):
So, yeah, I definitelyrecommend, if it is your first
time, to a thousand percent havea coach, or even if you're,
it's been a few times havingsomeone just walk you along that
journey so that to keep youaccountable and also have a
better understanding of what itis that's you know, coming to
you or what's coming up for youin your life and healthier ways

(30:06):
to you know process and releasethese traumas, and also to
create healthier routines andrelationships too If usually
there's a partner or spouseinvolved too and how to educate
them so that they can be ofsupport to the person who's
undergoing the infusions orceremony.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
That is the thing we didn't have was like coaches
weren't a thing, likeintegration wasn't really being
talked about, like we figured itout on our own.
But I don't wish that uponanybody.
And so in this particular posthe was like making fun of this
guy for being a coach.

(30:45):
And he was like and get this ifyou go to his page, you can pay
him to show you how to do drugs.
And I'm like in the commentslike obviously, because you all
don't know what you're talkingabout, so there have to be
people teaching people like youthink microdosing is like
somebody like high all the time.

(31:06):
So clearly you're misinformedand miseducate and not really
understanding what microdosingmeans, which is why he is
coaching people.
Because if you go into thisthinking you know what you're
doing, it could go very wrongvery quickly.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
Yeah, and especially on the other side, when things
start coming up, if you don'thave someone to support you
through that or talk you throughit or help you navigate these
new feelings.
A lot of times people arefeeling literally for the first
time.
Again, that was my experienceafter I don't know, maybe like
half a dozen journeys.
All of a sudden, like somethingshifted and I was like and now
I'm feeling everything.

(31:47):
Yay Like you know, like or noactually.
Well, actually, after my firstjourney yeah, it was like two
months later I was actually inthe ER for a panic attack
because it just broke me openand now I was just feeling all
the anxiety that I had beenpushing down.
So it was.
It can be really overwhelmingand luckily I did have a coach

(32:07):
and she helped me through that.
But, yeah, I, and even likewith my husband and I both, you
know, using psychedelics we'rebasically always talking, we're
like basically alwaysintegrating, but I think it's
really important to have someoneelse to talk to.
Maybe you can be a little bitmore open with or just have a

(32:30):
different perspective Becausewhen you're in it with your
spouse, you know all the timesometimes it can make it really
hard to see, like, what'sactually happening or just have
another perspective.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
You're a hundred percent right.
I have Christine.
No, we have the podcast, wehave each other, and I feel like
a lot of times we struggletrying to help people connect
with other people like who arelike-minded, who they can bounce
ideas back and forth with.
This is not a um, do it alonething Like it's.

(33:04):
It's actually much, much harderwhen you are going about this
journey and you are alone.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah.
No, so we grew up, you know,obviously in the dare generation
.
No, so we grew up, you know,obviously in the dare generation

(33:33):
.

Speaker 3 (33:33):
Yeah, and so you know , kind of going back to that
social media post or whateverthat Leah was talking about.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
When you are educating people, a lot of
people think of these medicinesand they lump them with drugs,
so they think of it as likeyou're drinking on the weekends
or you're doing drugs and that'show it's it's used.
Um, how would you explain tosomebody that they are very
different when used with theright intention, cause it's like
I don't even like to refer tothem as drugs because I'm like

(33:55):
they're not.
Even people are like well, I, Ismoked weed once and I got
really paranoid when I got high.
I was like please do notcompare mushrooms or any type of
plant medicine to even cannabis.
They're very different and itworks very differently and it's
used very differently.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
So yeah, I have a lot of clients who have used
psychedelics recreationally andor you know, maybe they've had
one experience or like a badtrip.
And for me, I actually usedmushrooms one time in college
and it was the most horrificexperience ever.
It was so scary.
So I was definitely a littleapprehensive the first time

(34:30):
before my journey.
You know I was, I was nervous,but, um, much like my experience
and when I tell my clients orprospective clients is, like you
said, when used with intention,and we're doing this in a very
safe setting, we're preparingfor it, it's not just like in
your friend's backseat.

(34:50):
It's a very different experiencebecause you're respecting the
medicine, you're respecting theprocess.
When you don't respect themedicine, it can slap you around
and you can have a veryunfavorable experience.
And that's usually what happenswhen people do have these, you
know, like bad trips or they getreally anxious with cannabis.
Um, from what I see, it justlike amplify.

(35:11):
So if you're going into itanxious, it's just going to make
that so much louder so that youhave to look at it really.
But so, yeah, that's again justreally educating them that this
is very different and we're notdoing this to escape.
We're actually doing this todive into the discomfort for
healing.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, it's a very different language with people,
you and I.
When we were like on the planetogether, we sat next to this
guy who was like he saw amushroom on my hat and was like
fuck yeah, drugs.
But, like you know, I'm like,oh, he's one of us and he's
talking to me about psychedelics, and then I mentioned a heroic
journey and he was like what'sthat?
He was like, oh, we're verydifferent, Like that's a

(36:01):
different language and it's notthe same thing that we talk
about and that we are helpinglike spread to, you know, other
women.
Like that's not what we, that'snot what we educate people on.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, no, absolutely I agree we.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
That's not what we educate people on.
Yeah, no, absolutely I agree,can.
Can you share um like othermedicines that you've used, and
kind of not necessarily whatyour experience was with them,
but what maybe it brought foryou?

Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, Um, I've used a variety of psychedelics, so
MDMA mushrooms, lsd San Pedro,ayahuasca aboga.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
I'm curious about aboga.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
And I did do.
Yeah, and ketamine cannabis,but yeah, I think that's the
list.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Do you feel like they all have very different.
I always say this I feel likethey each have a very different
energy and purpose.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
Yeah, I guess that's kind of where I was going with
that.

Speaker 3 (37:07):
Okay, because I had.
This isn't throwing anybodyunder the bus, it wasn't a
negative conversation oranything.
Somebody reached out to me whohas done mushroom journeys and
is like I think I need to doketamine and I was just trying
to explain the difference and,just knowing this person and how

(37:27):
far they've come, I was like Ireally think that you could
stick with mushrooms and getmore out of it than the ketamine
.
I think the ketamine would befor a different reason, but like
what you're looking for, Ithink would be here in this, do
you find that same thing?
It's almost like a prescriptive, like yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
I think that the ketamine and things like MDMA
are great because they're legaland they kind of get people in
the door and then then it kindof opens up for like
conversations of are do you wantto continue on this path?

Speaker 3 (37:59):
do you want to go deeper?
yeah, yeah that's what I felt.
That's kind of what I wassaying.
I was like I appreciateketamine in this space.
I think it's like the, thelegal doorway for people to dip
their toes in and feel likethey're doing something safe and
legal and they're not likebreaking any laws.
That's the way I kind of felt.

(38:20):
But I was like but and it'sgreat, I loved it.
It was a beautiful, positiveexperience because I was doing
it with a therapist but, like, Ijust think it was like a toe
dip.

Speaker 2 (38:35):
Yeah, yeah, in my experience the plant medicines
are certainly more powerful andprofound.
So things like MDMA andketamine, yes, can be really
helpful, but I find that theplant medicines are more
spiritually connected, obviously, and more like you feel more

(38:55):
and you have to really movethrough these emotions.
More than just the MDMA, I justfeel like it's kind of like a
stream of information that comesin, and the ketamine was just
like a lot of self-love, whichis always great.
It's like fuzzy, um, but theother medicines, you really have
to feel it and it can be reallyuncomfortable and, um, maybe
not to say that you probablycan't have that with the other

(39:15):
ones, but I find that the plantmedicines are far more, yes,
deeper.

Speaker 3 (39:21):
So I I don't know much about ibogaine or iboga and
I read this chart.
I was reading this chart theother day that talks about how,
with psychedelics, they reallyopen this like window of
opportunity for your um mind tochange a little bit.
It's that like window of likelearning, that capacity to

(39:43):
rewire neural pathways and makedifferent choices, and the thing
that I was reading was kind ofcomparing them by the amount
that the trip, the duration ofthe trip, correlates to the
amount of time that window isopen.
So, like a an hour longketamine journey, that window of
time is only going to last aday or two.
With mushrooms or MDMA, withsix to eight hours of a journey,

(40:08):
it's going to be, like, youknow, several weeks.
And then iboga or ibogaine,which is like 24 to 48 hours of
a journey, leaves that window oftime open for much, much longer
.
So you have like months toreally like integrate and get
deep into making changes in yourlife.

(40:28):
Does that like, do you feellike that kind of checks?

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Yeah, so I mean I've done a fair amount of
psychedelics different types aswell, as I just mentioned and
definitely nothing was moreprofound or impactful than a
boga.
It's a very direct.
You go with questions and youask the questions and you get
answers.
So, and also during theexperience, you have a

(40:56):
facilitator with you or at leastwhere I was for a part of it,
and she was literally justguiding me through, like my
childhood, like okay, we'llstart at age three, we'll start
at this, like what do you see?
And again it was very clearbeing able to see myself as a
child, and like what didn't workfor me, like why this?
Again this anxiety came about.
What didn't work for me, likewhy this?

(41:20):
Again this anxiety came about.
Um, and other events in my lifewhere you know I was, there was
a recurring theme of like beingblindsided and how that also
like provoked my anxiety andlike feelings of wanting control
.
So very, very direct.
And then, after the experience,so yeah, it's um, you're like
12 hours in the medicine andthen the whole next you don't go
to sleep and then the next dayyou're still in the medicine,

(41:45):
but at least you can like walk,Cause you can't really like.
At least I couldn't move duringthe experience.
I mean, some people werestanding up and I was like I
can't even roll over right now,I have no idea what you're doing
.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
Are you conscious that, like I'm conscious, like
I'm here and this is what I'mdoing, and like I, I and like
you, consciously knew, like,okay, like I can't do what
they're doing, I can't stand, Ican't roll over, I can't?

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Because for so long, um, I also know, like through my
functional training of thelittle like rhyme, dilution is
the solution to pollution, notto say that a bogus pollution.
But I was just trying to drinka lot of water during the
journey so that it would be over, because it was, it was just,
it was so long, so anyway.
So I really had to use thebathroom, so I was just laying

(42:32):
there, unable to move, becauseany little micro movement caused
such profound nausea.
But then eventually, when Iwent to the bathroom, like
someone had to walk me to thebathroom and then walk me back.
But yeah, I was, I could openmy eyes and you know be present
or close my eyes.

Speaker 1 (42:50):
So what can you explain what iboga is?

Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, and is it different than ibogaine?
Yeah, what are the similarities?

Speaker 2 (42:59):
to the best of my knowledge, they come from um,
the same source, and abogaine, Ibelieve, is like the alkaloid
um, so it comes from a tree barkin africa is where it stems
from um, and it's again, as faras I know, it's the most
powerful psychedelic on planetEarth and has been here
basically since Earth wascreated.

(43:22):
So, yeah, it comes from a treebark and they grind it up and it
tastes really bad, like almostgood medicines do.

Speaker 1 (43:31):
Yeah, ayahuasca was pretty terrible.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Like the time the girl was like it tasted like
fruit punch.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
We were like you weren't drinking ayahuasca, you
didn't have ayahuasca.
I don Like the time the girlwas like it tasted like fruit
punch.
We were like you weren'tdrinking ayahuasca, you didn't
have ayahuasca.
I don't know what you had, butthat wasn't what that was Unless
it tastes like dog shit.
It wasn't ayahuasca.

Speaker 2 (43:44):
That's funny, but yeah, I mean it was wild.
So being able to again.
She just journeyed me throughmy childhood and my childhood
and then during points of it, Icould literally feel it like
scrubbing out my brain.
And one of the I guess benefitsthat they noted on was just

(44:05):
this like mental clarity and itjust like clearing out all the
files.
And so the day after thejourney was pretty much like
laid in bed all day and beingawake and having this like very
stimulating medicine was prettymuch like laid in bed all day
and being awake and having thislike very stimulating medicine
was pretty wiped.
But the day after that I havenever felt better in my entire
life.
It was just so incredible, likeincredibly different how I felt

(44:30):
two days before and I takereally good care of my body, so
I already felt pretty good goingin and just the mental clarity
there was literally just like nothoughts.
It was thoughtlessness.
And then I was practicing yogaand my range of motion was like
10 degrees more.
I did purge during the journeyand I was like I don't like this

(44:53):
is incredible.
Like whose body is this, likewhat is happening?
But this, this is so amazingthat, yes, it was, you know, a
difficult 12 hours, but if thisis what's on the other side of
it, like, this is such amazingmedicine, for sure Do you think
like the after part, whereyou're, you're like I have no

(45:14):
thoughts.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
I've never felt better, because it's like those
12 hours or however long ittakes, you're really doing like
the hard work and bringingeverything up to the surface and
like letting it go.
So then it's like your body isfinally able, because it's like
I like before I did psychedelicsthere were a lot of things that

(45:38):
I understood, like I understoodlike, okay, yeah, love yourself
.
Okay, yeah, take care ofyourself, take care of your mind
, body, spirit.

Speaker 3 (45:44):
Yeah, let it go.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Blah, blah, blah, blah, where it's like, but like
truly being able to like sitwith those uncomfortable
feelings.
You can't run, you can't avoidthem, you can't push them down.
They're there and it's likeeverything comes up and then so,
then, after, it's like okay,like I just like release like a

(46:07):
hundred pounds of just traumaout of my body, yeah, or the
aboga.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
I feel like it was really just like the brain
scrubbing aspect of it too.
Oh, yeah, literally feeling mybrain being scrubbed.
But, yeah, the purging I feltwas correlated to just how like
my body, the range of motion andthe trauma that I released
there.
Yeah, and then, like the last,I don't know it's hard to tell
time, obviously, but like fouror five hours that was the most

(46:39):
difficult for me because I wasso exhausted that I couldn't
even think of questions to askanymore.
You know, I was like, will weget it, will we have a fourth
baby?
Which was really curious.
And I saw a very clear visualof us walking a dog.
So it was like, ok, but I mean,that wasn't in our cards at
that time, I had hadn't even gotmy period back yet.

(47:00):
So, um, so, yeah, really justtrying to lay there and like
surrender, and I, you know,opened my eyes a million times
to see if the sun was coming up.
And then finally, I noticedthat the music changed because
with the Bogots are very loudand very high paced, um, fast
paced music that's played theentire time, the traditional
music.
So at some point I realizedthat the music switched to more,

(47:22):
like you know, journey music.
I was like, oh my gosh, wait,what's happening?
And then I opened my eyes andfinally it was daylight.

Speaker 3 (47:30):
It's over.
I made it yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Interesting and I just kept watching the
facilitator.
I'm like okay, call this okay,hang on.

Speaker 3 (47:41):
So I do want to say this about iboga and ibogaine.
I think it's not talked aboutenough, but it is one of the
only things that can literallyreset your opiate receptors too,
so it is something that is usedin a lot of um with a lot of um
additions.
Thank you Like heroin andopiate, and that's not being

(48:04):
talked about enough.
I don't understand why.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Yeah, I mean so my husband did ayahuasca and then
he was sober for uh, six monthsmaybe and then he relapsed and
then he went and did aboga andthat's what separated him from
his addiction um.
Again, as best to my knowledge,um abigain is known to yeah,
help break like that addictionum, and then the aboga really is

(48:29):
to understand why the only.

Speaker 3 (48:32):
Thing but okay the only thing that I have ever seen
about this is like lamar odom'sum documentary, who was very
addicted to opiates and heroinand he did ketamine first and
then he did ibogaine, andwatching his journey like
because he let them record it,like that was like this giant
basketball player of a manhaving to be carried.

(48:55):
So like you're saying this and Iwas like, oh yeah, I can see
that, because he literally likecouldn't walk, he couldn't
function in his body but likecame out of it and he's no
longer addicted, like he's cleanand sober now.
So that was like really wild tosee.
Um yeah, that's all I got.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Well.
So I was going to ask you.
I wanted to do like a littleword association.
Leah always does this where shetalks about like what word each
psychedelic like means to her.
Or like the energy, or likeyeah, the first thing that comes
up when you think about thissubstance, oh, yeah, so like

(49:35):
iboga, what's the first thingthat comes up when you think
about that medicine?

Speaker 2 (49:42):
As cheesy as I sound, I would just say truth.
So the Bui Tui they have asaying it's Basi.
They say that a lot when you goand do iboga and that means
truth.
So again, very profoundexperience.
And that's really what the BuiTui they study is basically the
meaning of life.
So the truth.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
What about?
What about ayahuasca?

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Ooh, I would say more mystical I like that experience
Okay.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
What about um?
I like this game.
Uh, what about ketamine?

Speaker 2 (50:17):
Hmm, ketamine.
I'm trying to think of a goodword.
I only had to pick one word.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
Or phrase.
Could it be a phrase?
Yeah, I mean for ketamine.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
it was just kind of like melting and everything just
really slowed down melting andeverything just really slowed
down.
Um and again like a lot ofself-love or like
self-appreciation.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
Okay, I like that.
I want to talk about cacao.
How?
What would be the word forcacao?

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Oh, just like love.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
Oh, I like that.
I love that Heart opening, whatwe were talking about earlier.
So I want to hear about how youuse cacao in your practices,
and you said that you use it.
Um, it can be a really goodbeginner for people like dipping
their toes into psychedelics.
We've done it a few times.

(51:11):
I have cacao at home.
I don't think I use it the waythat I am supposed to be using
it, though After doing like anactual cacao ceremony, I was
like oh, I was literally justlike drinking it Like it was you
know chocolate with some agave.
You know, like I didn't realizethere was an entire intentional
practice that should be behindit.

(51:31):
So, I guess, help me understandthat a little bit more.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, I will say I am hosting a virtual ceremony in
August, so if y'all want to, canyou send us the invite.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
Yeah, we'll do it.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Okay, Let us know, we'll be there the right cacao,
too much like other medicines.
You know, cacao is not allcreated equally.
So, um, I'll just tell youquickly my story with cacao.
So I was at a retreat forayahuasca in San Pedro and cacao
was being served kind of justlike casually in the morning and

(52:06):
I didn't really know much aboutit, I just drank it because it
tasted amazing.
And then after the retreat itcontinued to speak to me and I
was really curious about goingthrough the practitioner
training and had reached out tothe facilitator of the retreat
about what that looked like.
And at that time I was pregnant.

(52:27):
So I was like, do I do it now?
Do I do it later?
Do I wait till baby's born,ended up doing it after baby was
earth side, and even beforethat I had been sharing it with
my family.
We'd been doing cacao ceremoniesat home, or anytime someone
would come to visit, we wouldhave a cacao ceremony.
And then, once I went throughthe training though, that's when

(52:49):
I started opening up to thecommunity and doing virtual and
then also local events here inNorth Carolina, and for me cacao
has been so wonderful Again,being a very busy mom of four,
having my cacao in the morningand having that practice, just
to have literally five minutesto sit with it in silence,

(53:13):
really helps ground me for theday and soften the edges, if you
will, so that no matter whathappens after that point and if
the whole day unravels at least,I know I had those few moments
first thing in the morning withmy delicious and nourishing
beverage where I was just reallypresent with it and with myself

(53:34):
so much like the othermedicines.
Now, being able to pick itforward and share it with other
people has been so incredibleand people are just having, you
know, even really like deepexperiences with cacao.
It really just depends on howopen you are and having really
incredible results with myclients, the ones who I think

(53:57):
will actually go forward with it.
Oftentimes I will give themsome cacao and then give them a
very brief ritual to go throughand have them be able to
experience, because it is areally great integration tool
for people who are, if they hada recent psychedelic journey or
if they're going through aketamine series, to just have

(54:18):
something with you that's kindof by your side throughout this
whole process, that you can, youknow, have daily, where you're
still getting insights and evenjust feel support from the cacao
.
So it can be a really greataddition for anyone who's, you
know, currently going through aseries or an upcoming journey.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
I was a little bit confused before we went on.
I'm not going to lie, and now Iunderstand it, because I was
like how in the world can it bethe same as like kind of dipping
your toes into psychedelics?
But I, after hearing this, I'mlike okay, I wasn't, I was just

(55:04):
drinking it, I didn't have apractice.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
I didn't have a ritual surrounding it, but
hearing you say all of that, I'mlike, oh my God, that probably
is, like I mean, that's what wasmissing, like I didn't have
that, yeah, and so it ispsychoactive, not psychedelic.
So really, again, justeducating people on that.
So it more creates shifts inhow you think and feel.
I only use and recommendKeith's cacao.
He's the original chocolateshaman and he says that cacao
will take you to the door butyou have to be willing to go
there, versus, like ayahuasca,it's pulling you through the

(55:28):
door like whether you want to goor not.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
Oh, I love that.
I like that a lot.

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Yeah, so again, a lot of heart opening, very much
connected to yourself, others,nature.
It has so many nutritionalbenefits.
Fun fact, it's the mostnutritionally dense superfood on
the planet, so number onesource of antioxidants magnesium
.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
I didn't know that We've been doing it wrong,
Christine.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
And then it's also really high in phenylethylamine
and oh, my mind is escaping meright now phenylethylamine and
anantamide.
So those are known as love andbliss chemicals.
So again.
That's why it really gives youthat high and blissful feeling.
Also really helps with mentalclarity.
Goal-directed task completion.

(56:17):
I mean basically like all thethings right.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 (56:20):
Everyone should drink it and it's safe for kids.
So again, it's a reallybeautiful thing that we've
incorporated with our family.
We have little medicine kids intraining, so they-.

Speaker 3 (56:31):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
We love our Good Cow Ceremony days.
It's just such a great day forconnection and everyone's in
great spirits.
So it really just such a greatday for connection and
everyone's in great spirits.
So it really just sets the tone.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
Can I ask you how you do that with your family?
Is it like a?
Like?
It's really hard these days.
I know I was just watching ashow the other night that was
talking about how his familydoes sit down meals every single
night and I'm like we are sobusy that does not happen the
way that it should.
So do you just like set aside atime every day?

(57:01):
Is it weekly Like?
What does that look like foryou guys?

Speaker 2 (57:04):
The family kick-off.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:06):
So usually we'll do like once a month, like on a
Saturday, and we'll just kind ofrandomly like, okay, we haven't
done a kick-off ceremony thismonth or in a while.
So, yeah, it usually takes upour whole morning.
Yeah, we, you know, clear thespace and then we usually open
with just kind of checking inhow everyone's feeling.
The kids like get the room setup.

(57:27):
We use my daughter's room whichkind of doubles as like their
bedroom, the homeschool spaceand the cacao ceremony space, so
they get the space already andlike the altar and they love
that.
And then, yeah, we just kind ofcheck in.
We drink the medicine, weusually sit or lie in silence

(57:47):
for some time or listen to musicfor maybe like 15 minutes.
The kids have gotten reallygood.
Each time we bump up the quiettime and then after we share and
then we all just kind of likedance and pick a song on the
Alexa and then we have a littlebrunch.
So it's like the best day.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
That's the best.
Thing ever.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
I want to be in this family.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
I do too.
And then I forgot, before weclose we always draw our animal
spirit cards too, or some sortof from deck.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:16):
I have one child who is into this stuff the way that
I am, and the other two I.
I say this and I mean it, but Idon't, but like I started way
too late in this space yeahthey're older one's about to be
12 and one is 16 and they thinkI'm wackadoodle.
And well, I am.

(58:36):
I am but my daughter.
You know, this whole journeystarted when she was born for me
, so she is so in it, like, soconnected, like believes in
magic, all the things like shedoes these types of things with
me and it makes me sad that Ican't have that with everybody.

(58:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, theysee me doing it, so maybe
they'll marry someone who doesit too.

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Yeah, and this isn't a question.
You marry your mom, right,right.
This isn't a question, but it'sjust commentary.
Like there, um is a lot of.
There are a lot of men in thisspace we often have noticed, and
so to hear like another mom inthis space doing this and doing
this with their kids, it's justlike it's very heartwarming.

(59:25):
So, I just had to say that.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
Yeah, and we were super open with them too, like
if we're ever, you know, goingto a ceremony, what we're doing
or, you know, even like at home,like it's very open, versus
like in my upbringing it wasvery like things weren't talked
about.
So, yeah, just being able toopen it up with them and being

(59:49):
really honest with them, andalso in our continued healing
and growth, like when we makemistakes, being able to own up
for it and be like hey, thatwasn't cool, I'm sorry about
that.

Speaker 3 (59:59):
You know, I love this guy for you guys, like your
whole family has kind of like,can I ask, did you always want
to homeschool or was that adecision that came post?
Psychedelics, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
Uh no, I always did.
Um, I always wanted to like,find like the magic solution to
get me out of my, you know, nineto five so I could have the
freedom to be at home with mykids or have more time with them
, because, especially goingthrough infertility treatments,
I wish that upon no one.
It was like hell on earth andwanting kids so bad, and then

(01:00:36):
getting them and be like, andnow I have to go to work.
This is lame, even though I wasreally lucky, I only worked
part-time after my girls wereborn, but so no, it happened in
COVID.
I have twin daughters and theywere in kindergarten at the time
and then when they came homeand they're like yeah, we're
going to do virtual, you know,we're going to do kindergarten,

(01:00:57):
you know we're going to do umkindergarten virtually from home
and I was like 0% chance that'shappening.
My five-year-olds are not goingto sit at home in front of a
computer while I'm at work andlearn like we're pulling the
plug on this.
Um, and then it was all likethe school was open, the school
was closed, so that, just youknow, really validated it and
luckily, my employer at the timewas also very supportive and

(01:01:18):
she had a family, so, yeah,supported my decision to start
homeschooling them and so that'skind of what started it for us
and luckily, ever since thatI've been able to continue and
my husband and I now we do ittogether.
So this past year he joined, sohe teaches a subject and I
teach a few.

(01:01:38):
And, yeah, every year I askthem to if they want to continue
or if they want to go to publicschool.
And last year one of my girlsexpressed wanting to go to
public school, but afterrationalizing with her a little
bit more, she decided not to.
I think she wanted to just gobecause one of like our next
door neighbor or friend wasthere.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
But they realized that they have it pretty good in
homeschool.
I feel like it's kind of thenew wave and it's different than
what.
Like a lot of it has kind oflike psychedelics, but people
think of homeschooling like backin the day to maybe shelter
kids from their kids, from otherthings.

Speaker 3 (01:02:23):
I think it has a lot of religious undertones to it
yeah, even like where I feellike it's changed so much in the
louisville area for likehomeschool for us where we are.
It was like every singlehomeschool pod or website that
popped up was like a religiousgroup and I was like I don't

(01:02:44):
want to do that either.
So it's really, I think, it'shard to find the resources.
Everybody says it's easy tofind the resources, but I
disagree because I've tried tofind just people in this area
who know what it is without thereligious context.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean it's a lot of trial and
error too.
I mean I would say our firstyear was, like you know, kind of
a shit show, and that wasbefore I had done much healing
some, but it was pre-aboga andthat's really what changed for
me in like teaching and justreally parenting in general.
But yeah, it's a lot of, yeah,trial and error, but it's super

(01:03:25):
fun.
It is a lot of work, that's forsure.
It would be so much easier justto send them to school and be
like, okay, I'm going to workfor four hours in the morning,
you know, instead of cramming itall in one day, but super
rewarding.
You know, like I taught mydaughters how to read, right now
I'm teaching my son how to readand then really being able to

(01:03:46):
teach them things that areimportant or that we think are
important, versus what someoneelse is saying, like you have to
read, or you have to learn thisway, or or like one of my
daughters just isn't great attaking tests, or like time tests
.
So I know that she would not dowell in that setting where now
it seems like it is sostandardized and there's so much

(01:04:08):
testing done.
I mean, even sometimes, likelast year.
The girls were in fourth gradeand it's kind of getting to the
point.
Sometimes the math ischallenging at times.
There was a day we were doingchallenging word problems and I
was like, guys, I can't solvethese.
I'm telling you right now youwill never need to know this.
So we're not doing this today.

(01:04:29):
And they're like what I'mkidding?
I'm like, if I can't figure itout and I've never applied this
to my life, I think you're goingto be OK.

Speaker 3 (01:04:37):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:38):
I love that too.

Speaker 3 (01:04:39):
They're learning a lot of stuff that I'm like.
I don't know how to help youwith that.
Go ask your dad.

Speaker 1 (01:04:43):
Yeah, yeah, I'll be that mom.
My son's four, but I will bethat mom too.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
I am 100% that mom.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
I'm like I am not smarter than a fifth grader
right now.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
I to figure this out.
So I am smarter than a fifthgrader in life.
Okay, like I may not know howto do common core math, but that
was irrelevant to living mylife.
Okay, don't mean that as going.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
Going off the homeschool topic, you earlier
mentioned, san Pedro.
Can you talk about what that is, how that experience was?

Speaker 2 (01:05:18):
Can you talk about what that is, how that
experience was?
Yeah, so a St Pedro comes froma cactus that basically just
sits in the sun all day, so it'sa great medicine to do during
the day, especially in the sun.
So when I did it in aceremonial setting a little over
a year ago was in the Southwestof the United States, so in the
desert.
Ago was in the Southwest of theUnited States, so in the desert

(01:05:41):
, um, and it was actuallyfollowing um to ayahuasca.
So we had two ayahuascaceremonies and then a San Pedro
the next day.
Um, I was actually pregnant atthe time, so I didn't do a full
dose of the San Pedro.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
Oh, we have to talk about that.
Yeah, put a pin in that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
Okay, I also didn't do a full of the ayahuasca.
I did do two cups the firstnight and then one medium cup or
dose the second night.
So I didn't take a ton ofmedicine of the San Pedro just
considering.
But it was still a verybeautiful day and I had a lot of
um for me.
I was pregnant at the time andwhen I found out I was pregnant,
my husband and I were in likethe thralls of like his PTSD and
, um, yeah, he was going throughum, he was actually microdosing
psilocybin and going throughEMDR.
So it was like super intenseand it was a really, really
difficult time for us and wereally honestly didn't know if

(01:06:42):
we were going to make it.
And then, like four days later,I found out I was just like
magically pregnant and I waslike I have no idea what's
happening right now with my lifeand there was a lot of doubt
and just genuine concern aboutlike is this a good time to
bring a child into this birth?
Yet it is a direct miracle andtestament to my journey.

(01:07:05):
So it was really hard thosefirst few weeks and really just
trying to make the rightdecision.
So I had a lot of guilt aboutthat and knowing what I know
about healing, like, oh my gosh,this baby's going to come into
the world and and think that hismom didn't want him or there
was uncertainty, and I just hadso much forgiveness for myself
and connection to the baby.

(01:07:27):
Um, during my San Pedroexperience, just like so many
tears wept and connecting withhim and him, just knowing that I
was trying to make you know theright decision and take my time
with it, and just how much likeI loved him already and how
connected we were and just himbeing there with me through that

(01:07:47):
experience made it a lot lessscary.
Knowing I had like a passengerwith me and just you know,
having so much love for him, fortrusting me and for allowing me
to, you know, do that with him.
So, yeah, it was reallybeautiful and I look forward to
I've done it um.
Other um other times um,oftentimes we'll go on hikes um

(01:08:09):
as a family, and my husband andI will.
We have some at home.
We have a cactus um, butnothing like the dose that I did
there.
But yeah, it's just a reallybeautiful gentle medicine.
It's certainly not as deep as,say, ayahuasca or aboga, but
really, you know, connection toearth at being I mean all of
these being plant medicines, butbeing particularly something

(01:08:32):
that just sits in the ground andgets blasted by the sun all day
ground and gets blasted by thesun all day.

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
I did not realize until we talked on the phone
that you could do ayahuascawhile pregnant.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Yeah, that one is a new one for me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
And I can't imagine like that connection that you
would feel using that kind ofmedicine to your baby.

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
Yeah, um, it had been calling me for a while and it
just kept.
I kept like like missing itwith this one facilitator that I
wanted to sit with.
You know, she took a leave andthen she had some personal
things and then anyway, so itcame up for me again and just
happened to be pregnant and Ireached out to a different, a

(01:09:17):
different facilitator who shehad actually trained under, and
spoke with her on the phoneabout it and she said, yeah,
like, it's totally safe, thebaby is not affected whatsoever,
it doesn't cross the placenta,um, and it's best to do it in
the second trimester, whichwould be exactly where I was
when the ceremony was happening.
So I was like, well, I'mdefinitely not going to have any

(01:09:41):
time to do it when baby's onthe other side, for, you know,
at least two years probablyuntil I can leave them.
So I mean, if she says, it'scool, I mean I'm sure people in
the Amazon are doing it all thetime yeah so true, yeah so true,
yeah so and it um.
Actually I I was like 20 weekswhen I went um and the first
time I felt baby move was likeas soon as I got there.

(01:10:03):
So that was kind of cool.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
Oh my gosh, let's get pregnant.

Speaker 3 (01:10:08):
You go right ahead.
I'm good.
No, I'm good.
No offense, I love my kids.
I'm just done.
I know I'm done.
Yeah, it's been a lot.
Okay.
I have a few last questions foryou.
How do you view the future ofpsychedelics and mainstream

(01:10:30):
medicine, and what changes wouldyou like to see in the
healthcare system regarding theacceptance and the use of
psychedelics?
Good, question.

Speaker 2 (01:10:38):
Yeah, I think that we are like part of a movement and
I think that there is like thiswave that is happening right
now, particularly with MDMA andpsilocybin and ketamine and
these things being legalized ordecriminalized or what have you.
So I do think a lot more peopleare using them to heal and
having really, really amazingresults.

(01:11:01):
Whether or not they're workingwith a coach, at least they're
opening up their eyes to what ispossible, and my hope is people
like myself particularly thatare medical professionals, to
really be able to advocate forthe safe use of these medicines
and how they can be usedtherapeutically to really do far

(01:11:23):
more than any pharmaceuticalcould do ever.

Speaker 3 (01:11:27):
I truly believe like there is good and bad in
everything and for the peoplewho are arguing that it could
like do so much damage, I reallythink that, like, education is
the biggest part of that.
Yeah, because in the same waythat, like you know, taking
prescription meds, if you takeit as directed, it may have less

(01:11:50):
side effects or less um,there's a lot less damage that
it could do.
But if you go outside of theprescription, like, it could do
a lot more damage.
You could become addicted.
You know it could do much morethan just the usual side effects
if you go outside of thatprescriptive list.
So what if we could live in aworld where I hate to say

(01:12:14):
prescriptive, because I don'tlike lumping it into the same
category as pharmaceuticals, butlike if you just know the
medicine and understand thedosing and the setting, and that
if you do it outside of thisprescriptive case, a lot more

(01:12:34):
damage could happen?
So why can't we talk about thesafe way to do these things?

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:12:43):
I don't know, I just feel like that's.
I'm really big on that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
Yeah, for sure.
No, I definitely feel that itdoes come down to educating
people on how this is differentthan, again, just doing it
recreationally, and you're goingto get a very different
response when you're going toget a very different response
when you're going into it withpreparation and attention and
respect, versus just doing itlike haphazardly and buying it
from some guy off the streetLike that's definitely not

(01:13:09):
recommended Right or theinternet.
I have clients that will ask meabout, like buying mushrooms
off the internet.
I was, like I do not supportthat.
Like please don't do that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:19):
Like could we also agree that, like not all medical
professionals with degrees knoweverything about everything?

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
Yeah, and even I see in ketamine too, some clinics
are more spiritual.
The vast majority majority ofthem, I would say are just very
clinical and it's even just likehow the clinic feels.
And also just talking with theowners, um, because I've talked
to quite a few differentketamine clinics, or the
physicians there, and um, andjust they see that these

(01:13:55):
medicines work but they don'tknow like everything that goes
into it to making the experienceactually like the most
successful.

Speaker 3 (01:14:05):
They're turning into pain clinics.

Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:14:08):
Yeah, we talked with someone who owns.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
Or like IV nutrients or something.

Speaker 3 (01:14:14):
Yeah, you just go in and get it as needed nutrients
or something.
Yeah, you just go in and get itas needed.
We talked with someone andasked you know, who does own a
very we think holistic practicewith ketamine and they have this
holistic approach.
And one of the things he saidwhen looking for a ketamine
clinic if they're not accessibleto you is like, do they work
from a psychedelic framework?

(01:14:34):
Are they talking preparation,integration?
Are they supporting you throughthis journey?
Is their goal to help heal youor are they just trying to get
you in for these treatments andwe'll see you back in six weeks
for your other wins and you'regoing to keep coming back
because you don't know what todo with it when you come out of
here.
So, yeah, I see that a lot tooin the ketamine world happening.

Speaker 2 (01:14:58):
It's unfortunate.

Speaker 3 (01:14:58):
Yeah, it is unfortunate.

Speaker 2 (01:15:03):
Luckily, the place that I'm collaborating with here
locally, the physician sees meand anytime I have a suggestion
he's like whatever you think isbest.
He's like you know better thanI do.
I'm just overseeing and makingsure that everything is safe,
like I love that if you, if weneed to have noise canceling,

(01:15:24):
headphones in the room and aspotify playlist like, just let
me know I love that being heard.

Speaker 3 (01:15:30):
That's my, like, absolute favorite thing, and so
not all medical professionalsknow anything about psychedelics
either.
So that's like a big one.
So somebody was saying theother day well, you know, I have
PTSD, so I am high risk, and mypsychiatrist would say
absolutely not, I can never dopsychedelics.

(01:15:51):
And I'm like what does he knowabout psychedelics?
So like I don't know.
Actually you need psychedelics,Right?
I was like if anything thatmakes you a candidate like that
doesn't mean you're high risk,Like if you should find a
psychiatrist, who, who worksspecifically with the medicine,
who to tell you yes or no beforeyou jump on that judgment.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
Well, and it's like how many Western medicine
doctors you know you go to andthey don't talk to you about
your diet.
And they don't talk to youabout your diet.
They don't talk to you aboutyour stress.
They don't talk to you aboutyour sleep.
They don't talk to you about,like, your trauma.
They don't talk to you aboutyour food, Like, so you know,
like they know what they know,but they don't necessarily know
everything, Right.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
Right, yeah, and again.
So when I went through myfunctional training like I said
earlier, just like relearningeverything from a way that made
sense it was like why didn't Ilearn this the first time, when
I paid $160,000 to go to PAschool?
And now I'm paying a fractionof a cost and now it makes sense
?
It's like this is ridiculous.

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
I kind of love that you have been in both worlds.
I absolutely love that.
It's also like I love that youhave been in both worlds, like,
yeah, I absolutely love that.
It's also like why didn't Ihave a period for 20 years and
how come nobody could ever tellme what was going on?
And then the minute I startedworking internally and like
changing my life and doing allthese like positive things and
making positive changes, like itcame like, that is whoever

(01:17:16):
suggested that to you?
Did you ever have anybodysuggest like hey, maybe your
husband should get sober andmaybe you should do this, and
maybe you know?

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):
like nobody's doing that.
I went through fertilitytreatments.
I did see an acupuncturistbecause I had a friend who went
through um fertility treatmentsand said that acupuncture was
really helpful for her Um, andhe's the only one who said like
maybe you should start runningless, maybe you should start
like increasing your protein.
And for me acupuncture was justa go, a way to go and just like
check out and it really didhelp my stress and anxiety.

(01:17:49):
And luckily, though, as much askind of bash on Western
medicine, modern medicine isextremely helpful and advanced
and without it I wouldn't havemy three oldest children, so I
am very grateful for it.
I do feel that there is a timeand a place for it, for sure.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:18:09):
I love that Best of both worlds.

Speaker 1 (01:18:11):
Can you share any type of success story that
you've had with the clients thatyou've worked with?

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
Yeah, let me think of so I have actually the one that
comes to mind my most recentclient.
I started working with herprobably just like two weeks ago
and the first time I spoke toher she had already signed up to
do her ketamine infusions andusually I meet with clients
twice before their infusionsanyway, so this was just kind of
like our initial phone meet andgreet, and she already had a

(01:18:44):
suicide plan.
Like this was her last resort.
And if this didn't work, thenshe was going to go through with
her plan, so obviously severelydepressed, PTSD, adhd, autistic
, so much trauma, sexual trauma.
And by her fourth ketaminesession.
So this was like maybe 10 dayslater she said the thought of

(01:19:07):
suicide was boring, like, andshe has completely changed, like
she's looking for jobs.
She like came in wearing adress you know had actually
started, um like moving andtaking steps to create this
workshop.
Um, she was a circus aerialist,so to actually help other

(01:19:28):
circus performers heal fromtheir trauma, because, from what
I understand, it's a verytraumatic environment there, um,
and so she wanted to startdoing the ketamine first and
then we're going to work on thenutrition later.
And I also introduced her tocacao and she had a really
beautiful experience with itwhen she was visited by a
deceased pet actually, so reallyjust being able to work with

(01:19:53):
her and again having her talk tosomeone that wasn't her
extremely like narcissistic,controlling family, and giving
her some frameworks to thinkabout and some action steps to
incorporate into her life andjust being there for her really,

(01:20:15):
because no one had been, uh,and knowing that I can.
I can take it and I will sagemyself afterwards.
Um, but it was just soincredible.
Her, her journey, just in short, such a short period of time.
She has her last infusion on umthis Friday, so someone went
from literally like extreme oneside now to the other side.

(01:20:39):
There's not even thinking aboutthat whatsoever and just
thinking about like what is herpurpose here and how can she
make a bigger impact in thisworld?

Speaker 3 (01:20:49):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:20:50):
I love that so much.

Speaker 3 (01:20:52):
Is your husband also in this space with you Like,
does he have a role in helping?
Um, he does.

Speaker 2 (01:21:01):
So he has written and published two books on his
experiences with psychedelics Um.
The first one just kind of his,his journey um you can plug it,
plug it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:11):
Miraculous.

Speaker 2 (01:21:13):
Okay, and then the second book is called the
Mushroom Chronicles, also RyanGraves, available on Amazon, and
that one documents his journeymicrodosing while going through
the EMDR.
So that whole like veryturbulent time is documented in
a story.

Speaker 3 (01:21:32):
Wow, okay, we are going to link those Link in bio.

Speaker 2 (01:21:38):
And he also serves as a coach and is a Buitui
initiate.
So he's been initiated into theAboga tradition and hold space
for some medicines as well.

Speaker 3 (01:21:48):
I love that you guys are such a healing family.
Yeah, like I really want tolive there.

Speaker 1 (01:21:54):
Now you said that you had the cacao ceremony coming
up in August.
Anything else that you have toofferacao ceremony coming up um
in August, anything else thatyou have to offer, or how can
people find you?

Speaker 2 (01:22:02):
Yeah, so my website, um, mostly talks about, um, a
lot of the nutritional aspect.
I haven't gone forced to likecompletely revamp it, but it
does include all my services, um, the functional healercom, also
on Instagram, the functionalhealer Um.
You can check that out and seepictures of my adorable fam, um.
And then, yeah, I do have thevirtual cacao ceremony.

(01:22:23):
I can send you the link to signup for that.
Um, that's happening August 4th, on a Sunday morning on a new
moon, so I think it's a thattheme is manifesting more fun.

Speaker 3 (01:22:36):
Oh, I know I'm like okay, but first we need to sign
up before we left this out tothe masses.
So, like, send us the link andwe will add that as well.
And honestly, like I am likeenthralled everything that
you're doing.
I'm like I could talk to youfor hours.

Speaker 2 (01:22:55):
My favorite, my favorite thing is I also um, I
um also created a online programfor women, um, the burnout
recovery system, which is a 12week program to help women go
from, you know, burnt out toliving vibrant and full of
energy.
So, um, I previously was likereally big and that was, like

(01:23:17):
you know, my role for a while,but now that I've really
switched over not switched over,but now, I guess, given myself
permission to really just followthis psychedelic path and have
this be like what it is that I'mtalking about and promoting for
myself and on social media.
I've kind of put that on theback burner, but it is there and

(01:23:38):
it's available and it's areally great program um, to
follow a 12 week um regarding um, very specific dietary
lifestyle tips to go from, likeI said, burnt out to thriving.

Speaker 1 (01:23:51):
I'm curious about, and I can email you after this,
but I'm curious about that formy, for myself.

Speaker 3 (01:23:57):
I was literally staring you down.

Speaker 1 (01:24:00):
I know, yeah, I'm trying to get you to.
The burnout is real yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
Yeah absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:24:07):
Okay, okay, yeah, I'll reach out to you.
Oh, I remember what I was goingto say, but it's I like these
interviews are so healing for us.
I'm speaking for you, yeah, no,uh, because I feel like every
interview is truly integrationwork for us and it's very

(01:24:32):
healing.
So thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
Thank you so much Thank you for giving today.

Speaker 1 (01:24:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:24:35):
Yeah, oh my gosh, you do this all day, and to all of
our listeners um, I'm happy youguys got to meet.
I was super excited.
This has been awesome.
Reach out to Stephanie throughher Instagram or website.
Link everything Absolutely.
Stay curious, be open and we'llsee you guys on the other side.
Bye.

All Episodes

89 | Healing Through Psychedelics and Holistic Living (with Stephanie Graves)

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial

Good Hang with Amy Poehler

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}89 | Healing Through Psychedelics and Holistic Living (with Stephanie Graves)