91 | The Dark Night of the Soul...and the Other Side

Send us a text

Ever felt the ground crumble beneath your feet, questioning everything you thought you knew? Join us as we unpack the "dark night of the soul," a phase of profound spiritual desolation and existential doubt. Inspired by our listeners who have experienced this season, we share our own harrowing experiences, discuss the emotional upheaval, and explore how these challenging times are crucial for deeper spiritual growth. Discover how feeling abandoned can ultimately lead to a closer, more mature union with the divine, and the vital importance of a supportive community during this turbulent journey.

Imagine finding clarity through a psychedelic experience, only to face the collapse of your support system. We dive into a personal story where the use of psychedelics to combat depression, only led to newfound clarity that clashed with the expectations of a husband and mother-in-law. Learn about the emotional manipulation and conflict avoidance that ensued, and the painful but necessary steps of establishing boundaries and self-respect within controlling relationships. We shed light on the struggles of dealing with narcissistic behaviors and the courage it takes to prioritize personal well-being.

Parent-child relationships, lifelong friendships, and the transformative power of personal growth are also on the agenda. We tackle the emotional reassessment of deeply ingrained beliefs about our parents, the growing trend of millennials going no-contact, and the heart-wrenching experience of losing friendships due to personal evolution. Through raw and introspective discussions, we aim to provide you with the tools and support needed to navigate these complex dynamics. So, tune in and join us as we remind you that there is light on the other side of these challenging journeys, and that resilience, community, and self-acceptance are key to emerging stronger.

If you are going through a similar journey and need a metaphoric hand to hold through the process, you can book a call with either one of us through the link in our bio and here: https://www.syotospodcast.com/booking

Microdosify 
10% OFF our trusted microdose supply!

1:1 Discovery Calls 
Are psychedelics right for you on your healing journey? Book a discovery call to ask us anything.

https://www.buzzsprout.com/1982724/support

Support the show

Our Website:
https://linktr.ee/seeyouontheothersidepodcast

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
here we go one more time, everybody's feeling fine,
here we go.
Now.
Yes, yes, yes, here we go.
In sync has got the flow.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
I didn't know that was in sync moving hands to the
beat.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
We got everything you need.
Here we go now I know the song.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
I was never an NSYNC girly.
Welcome back to See you on theOther Side.
Hello friends, hey guys,today's episode was inspired by
a listener Altered roads we'relooking at you.

(00:42):
Oh, we're calling her out.
Yeah, she did say're callingher out.
Yeah, she did say we could.
Yeah, she did say we could.
Altered roads message.
Just I hate that.
I like I know everybody bytheir instagram handle it's
funny, because you were askingme someone.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
You're like, do you know this person?
Like she's my friend blah blah,and I was like oh, and I
literally you said her instagramname, just said her instagram
name said her Instagram nameshe's like and you're like yeah,
that's how we know you guys.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
I hate that, but it's also like it's kind of cute and
endearing.
It's like your little nicknames.
Yes, so where did my notes go?
She messaged us, asking usabout what we knew about the
dark night of the soul.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
We've never really covered it, no, and we both have
gone through it, and probably alot of our listeners also have
gone through it, but they don'tknow that that's what it is and
that's what it's called.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
I didn't know that's what it was until I was out of
it and was like holy shit,that's what I went through.
I also think that we havetalked about out of it and was
like holy shit, that's what Iwent through.
Um, I also think that we havetalked about it but never really
put the name to it.
Okay, that's yeah.
And I think sometimes when wetalk about how hard this journey

(01:58):
is, like what we're really kindof doing a disservice to like
the severity of how hard it is.
I think with the name, I like Ilove a label.
I think you do love a label Ireally feel like labels help you
understand things better.

(02:18):
Spectrums help you understandthat it's not black and white
like I love a fucking label.
Um, so what this is called isthe dark night of the soul.
Can you kind of explain it inyour, with your understanding?
So she messaged us and was likewhat do you guys know about
this?
And I was like, oh girl, let metell you.

(02:39):
Um, because she's kind of beengoing through that and it can be
dark and heavy and mucky, andwe literally just talked about
it in the last episode that wedid with Meg.
She brought it up how heavy andhard it can be, but again, she

(03:00):
didn't use the word dark nightof the soul either.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
And I also think of it as like also to like
questioning everything youthought you knew, yeah, and
realizing that a lot of thosethings were wrong.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Conditioning like Like doesn't align with you
anymore.
Right, right, right.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Like the conspiracy theories, you're like I believe
that now, like it's everythingthat you thought, literally you
knew has just been wiped away.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
Your truth has been ripped out from under you.
Yes, lonely, isolating, um,very hard, heavy, dark part,

(03:55):
yeah, of this process.
It's a dark place to be.
Yeah, I let me kind of give thedescription that I found um,
because this kind of describesit perfectly.
The dark night of the soul is aterm used to describe a period
of intense spiritual desolation,confusion and inner turmoil.
It's originated from thewritings of the 16th century

(04:17):
Spanish mystic, saint John ofthe Cross, and it refers to a
phase in the spiritual journeywhere an individual feels
abandoned by God and experiencesprofound existential doubt.
This period is oftencharacterized by a sense of
emptiness, depression and a lossof direction.
Despite its challenges, thedark night is considered a

(04:37):
crucial part of spiritual growthand it leads ultimately to a
deeper, more mature faith and acloser union with the divine.
Leads ultimately to a deeper,more mature faith and a closer
union with the divine.
So we were having a back andforth dialogue and I was letting
her know, like, you're notalone, we went through this as

(05:09):
well.
We just didn't have a platformwhen we were going through it in
that way.
I know that mine was a coupleof years before yours and it was
it got really fucking dark.
I have opened up about how,after that first journey, I fell
into a deep dark depression andI feel like this was part of it
, like I was seeing things thatno one else around me was seeing
, and I don't mean likehallucinating.

(05:29):
Can you elaborate on that?

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, because and the reason why I'm bringing this up
is because, like, that wasprobably a really tough time in
your marriage too, right?
Because, absolutely, your Jason, your husband was not on this
journey yet and you were, and soyou really like, at least I had
you and I had the support ofTony Like he didn't understand

(05:58):
it, but he wasn't.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Like you know, jason was still deep in addiction when
you, and also I think that whenwe tell people that you need
support, I think sometimes theythink from their lens will I
have support.
Yeah, I felt the same way I feltlike before my first mushroom

(06:26):
journey.
And here's the thing Spiritualawakenings can happen with or
without psychedelics.
I think sometimes psychedelicskind of bring it on much quicker
and sometimes they happenbecause you've had like an
existential loss or you knowsomething, you hit rock bottom

(06:46):
or you lost something.
Then that happens.
But I think that doing ajourney kind of puts you on the
fast track to some sort ofawakening.
And so for me, before I did I'msaying that because my spiritual
awakening happened because Idid mushrooms and I wasn't

(07:08):
expecting what came after myhusband was very much in support
of me not being depressedanymore, was very supportive,
like sure I'll, I'll pay for youto go have this done, sure I'll
, I'll pay for you to go havethis done.

(07:28):
And you know when you get backand hopefully you'll be better
and I support this new, you knowwhole, improved version of you
where you're not depressed allthe time and um.
And he was super supportiveuntil I came home and that also
meant I can't be in thisenvironment anymore unless

(07:48):
things change.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
So from his lens he was like you go, do whatever you
need to do, You're the problemRight.
You're the problem and you comeback and you're happy and then
we'll be good.
Yeah, but what in actuality itwas?
It was like you got thisinsight and you're like and
again, this is like theintegration part of it.
Okay, I had this lesson, or Ihad this experience, and now I

(08:13):
want to change myself.
I want to change our how we arein our relationship, like our
home, and he was probably likewhoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we
Whoa.
That's exactly what he wassaying.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Like what the actual fuck?
I I'm not fucking changing,like I didn't do a journey, like
you were supposed to do thisjourney and get all better.
And so what I found during thatfirst year after doing
mushrooms is that my supportsystem fell apart.
The people that I thought wouldsupport me the most were

(08:53):
working against me.
Should I get into that?
Oh, let's fucking go.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
You know I'm down to fucking go there.
You're always down to go there,yeah, so I'm going to be
rooting for to fucking go there.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
You're always down to go there, yeah, so I'm going to
be rooting for you to go there.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
I was very close for our entire relationship.
I've been with my husband for18 years and I very quickly
attached to his mother as theonly girl in the family, the
daughter she never had.
She to me, was a very she wasthe mother figure that I didn't

(09:31):
really have growing up attachedto her very quickly.
Um, we were very close.
I would even say closer to herthan my husband was to her, her
than my husband was to her.
For years she has been.

(09:51):
You need help.
You have all this childhoodtrauma, like you're married to
an alcoholic.
You really need to get help.
You can't do this alone.
So I did that and it's almostlike doing that also made me see
her and who she really was andthe way that their family

(10:13):
brushed stuff under the rug andyou just you deal with it
because they're family and youdon't have hard conversations
and you don't have hardconversations, like I just
started to see a lot of thesimilarities in my relationship
to my husband and the way thathe dealt with conflict.

(10:38):
I was literally going to sayconflict.
The way that I dealt withconflict before was to pretend
it wasn't there and forgive andforget.
What about him?
How did he deal with conflict?
He didn't.
I mean he drank yeah, he drankor he would give me the silent

(11:01):
treatment.
And I noticed his mom did allthe same me the silent treatment
.
And I noticed his mom did allthe same things the silent
treatment.
The silent treatment when shedidn't get her way.
She would be upset with someonefor months and not tell them
why, but then get upset thatthey weren't reaching out and
asking her why.
But we were like, we didn'tknow, you were mad, like just

(11:22):
like this, like it was justsomething that I saw for the
first time.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
And can I bring something up?
So this morning we're we'rehaving uh, just like a
conversation about just business, yeah, and you said to me
something like I'm I'm likeworried, like you're not gonna
like you're you're not gonnatell me if I'm like whatever,
pulling like more weight or yeah.

(11:51):
Yeah, and I'm like Leah, likeyou know me, like you know that
I would tell you, I would, Iwould, I would share that with
you.
But I think you are very, umlike still conditioned in a
little bit of ways because ofthe just the people that you've,

(12:12):
you've been around, thatthey're going to like be mad at
you and then like exile you andthen not even tell you.
And I'm like, leah, like youlike, I will, I will communicate
with you.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
I didn't think about it that way.
But, yeah, it turned into ayear of fucking hell because I
started speaking up um mainly tomy husband, because my
mother-in-law um avoided me,refused to have a conversation
with me, continued to say youknow what you did wrong and I'm

(12:48):
like I don't know what I didwrong.
Please tell me what I did wrong, because I don't know what I
did wrong.
You know what it was and I'mlike I I genuinely don't
Gaslighting.
I genuinely if it would be somuch easier if you could just
tell me what I did to upset you.
Yeah, but you just keep sayingI should know and I need to

(13:09):
apologize.
I don't even know what I'mapologizing for.
Yeah, but that first year washell because she turned against
me.
She was trying to turn myhusband against me.
I'm like getting shaky in myvoice right now.
And this is all going back tothat support system, because the

(13:32):
people that I was closest to inmy life really just left me out
to fucking die.
And she was telling my husbandlike she's crazy, like her mom,
you can't fix her, she'scontrolling, which is so wild to
me because for years she usedto tell me like she knew his

(13:52):
drinking was a problem and sheused to always say, like you
need to put your foot down andyou need to let him know that
you're not going to stick aroundif he's going to continue this
behavior.
And so when I started doingthat, I became controlling, I

(14:16):
became the bad guy, I became thecrazy one and I'm like
literally over in my corner,like just trying to fucking heal
and learning to speak up formyself and learning that
sweeping things under the rugdoesn't work for me anymore and
realizing that the silenttreatment is abuse and calling
it out when it happened.

(14:36):
So I became the bad guy in mysupport group because I was
calling things out as I saw them.

Speaker 1 (14:45):
When you guys before you started this journey, when
when you were like deep inpeople pleaser mode, did you
guys really get along and shewas involved in your
relationship because she got tobe like a part of your
relationship, because she wasshe was she would say like you
need to put your foot down.
Was she saying you need to getyour shit together and you need

(15:09):
to stop drinking?
And you need to stop Like.
That's what I find veryinteresting about this.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
She had my side almost a hundred percent of the
time.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
She compared him, but she kind of did it.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
I know, I know she, but she meddled a lot.
There were times where thingswere off and she'd be like
what's going on?
Is something going on?
And I'd be like, no, we're fine.
She's like, leah, I can tellsomething's going on.
What's going on?
So I would confide in her witha lot of things.
She knew a lot of stuff aboutour marriage, so that was I'm

(15:47):
like remembering.
Now I set a boundary with herafter my journey and I said I
can't come to you with stufffrom our relationship anymore.
It's not helping, it's kind ofmessed up that like I'm
involving you in our marriage.
I don't want to do that anymore.
This is something that we needto figure out.
And that was not okay with herand she was like, well, you've

(16:09):
been doing this for 15 years andI'm like I know that, but I'm
telling you I'm not doing itanymore.
I will talk to you about thekids, I will talk to you about
other things going on, but I amnot going to come to you with
our relationship anymore.
That was not okay with her.

(16:29):
I feel like she felt like shehad to be needed.
She felt like she had to be thevoice of reason and really what
it was doing was like pittingmy husband's mom against him,
and so I was like this doesn'tfeel right to me anymore.
It feels ick.
Yeah, I don't want to do itanymore.

(16:51):
We're going to go to therapyinstead.
I did say that to her one timeand that pissed her off.
Like I didn't say it in thatway, but she was like she said
we didn't need, she didn't needus anymore because she has a
therapist.
I'm like I'm relieving you ofthis pressure, because you
always say you wish you didn'tknow what went on behind closed
doors.
So I am relieving you of thispressure Now you know boundary.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
You don't have to do anything right.
It's me removing myself fromright.

Speaker 2 (17:17):
All I'm saying is I'm not going to tell you the one
doing the work.
You don't have to do anything.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
You don't have to do the work.
You don't have to do anything.
You don't have to do anything,and you don't have to fucking
like it either, right, sorry,yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
It was a lot.
So, on top of that, and justseeing the way some of my
friendships were and how Ipeople pleased my way into some
questionable friendships becauseI didn't want to hurt the other
person or I felt bad or I letthis person walk all over me and

(17:49):
we always did what this personwanted to do and I would get
anxious when they wanted to hangout because I knew that I was
going to leave feeling drained.
You know, like I was goingfucking through it, having all
of these realizations, and itwas so hard because I went

(18:10):
through it alone I don't likesaying that because I did have
my friend Sarah, but that'sanother level too because she
wasn't going through theawakening that I was going
through.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, and you didn't have me either.
Cause.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
I didn't have you.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Well, I didn't.
I didn't know what the fuck youwere doing with your life.

Speaker 2 (18:31):
I was just doing drugs.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
For me like it never came from, like I never like
judged you.
I listened to the podcast, likewhen you guys talked about like
cannabis and all of that, but Ijust didn't there.
Like when you guys talked aboutlike cannabis and all of that,
but I just didn't, there wasn'tjudgment.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
I just didn't understand that world yet, yeah,
yeah I get it so like if youwould have been like, you and I
also weren't close, Right.
So there was a lot of like.
I felt like my world wascrumbling in around me, the
people that I thought loved methe most.
And I remember a year later andthis is something that I have

(19:07):
talked about that like deep,dark depression that I fell into
a year after my first mushroomjourney, where I was having
suicidal ideations and it wasthe lowest I ever got, and my
husband was watching me havethese breakdowns almost daily,
at this point where I am likewailing on the floor crying out

(19:30):
what the fuck is wrong with me,that everyone is leaving me,
like why am I all of a suddenthe bad guy and I am just trying
to get better, like it fuckedwith me so much because I don't
know.
I genuinely, to this day, stilldon't know what I did wrong in

(19:56):
that relationship.
I do now.
I do now, but I do now becauseand here's the thing too, too
like my husband fought me on itfor so long where I was like
don't you see what she's doing?
And he's like you're fuckingcrazy, that's not what's
happening.
And then he did a mushroomjourney and slowly started to

(20:17):
see the same shit and it fuckedhis world up too, because he was
like holy shit, you were right.
I don't know what to do withthis information.
Like she's she won't listen tome.
Like it it's.
It's been an ongoing journey andit still has been, and it got
really ugly and maybe one day wecan talk about, like the depths

(20:38):
, narcissists in that way andhow fucking detrimental it can
be to your mental health whenyou are enmeshed in a
narcissistic relationship.
It almost broke me and I feelreally bad for people who are to

(21:05):
the point where, okay, this iswhat I'm going to say and I'm
going to I'm.
I'm trying to be careful withmy words here.
I wished for a very long timethat I didn't know what I knew.
I wished that I could go backto not knowing.
And it doesn't even change theperson that she was.

(21:27):
She was always that person.
I watched it play out in otherrelationships for 15 years.
I watched it happen over andover.
It had just never happened tome.
I wish I don't anymore, but Iused to wish I could go back to
not seeing what I saw, becausethen I would still be in her

(21:47):
good graces.
Yes, it wouldn't have been real.
But once I saw what I saw, Icouldn't unsee it and I wasn't
even like vocal about it withher.
You know, know what I mean?
I think she should.
She could just sense that I waslike firm and I was like no,

(22:08):
I'm sticking with theseboundaries, like this is my
boundary and you don't have tolike it.
And got more and more distant.
I got more and more distant.
I got so much pushback.
I have recorded conversationswhere they have tried to
gaslight Well, this is the firsttime you've ever talked about

(22:29):
boundaries with us.
And I'm like I know that's whyI'm having this conversation.
Well, you don't get to decidethat.
And I'm like no, I do.
Though One of the things thatthey said to me when I say they,
it was like his mom and hisstepdad would in a family
conversation, and it was allabout like us going to them with

(22:50):
our relationship problems,because they were kind of the
mediator in a lot of situationswith us.
Um, well, you came to us andyou said you're not going to do
this anymore, but you've beensteering.
You know, this ship has beengoing for 15 years and now, all
of a sudden, you get to decidethat you're not going to steer
it in this direction anymore.
That's not how that works andI'm like no, but it is, and also

(23:10):
I can do whatever the fuck Iwant in my own marriage.
It's my ship, right, I get tochoose who's on board and which
direction I'm going.
So I absolutely do get tochange the direction and the
course of this ship.
And if I don't want you guys toknow about what's happening in
our marriage, I don't have totell you.

(23:32):
It's that simple.
So sorry, that was a littleside tangent, just to kind of
prove that.
Like if you would have told mebefore my mushroom journey that
these people would turn on me orthat my support system would
have been not so great, I wouldhave like been like you don't

(23:55):
know my support system.
They're great.
They really want me to be better.
They want me.
They want the best for me, theywant the best for me.
Where that switches is whenwhat's best for you means that
the people in your life have toalso change, or they don't have

(24:15):
to.
They don't have to change, butyou're going to change the way
that you interact with thosepeople, and that's why I think
that those support systems thatwe think we have going in are
sometimes not the best,especially when you're in the
middle of an awakening, likeit's to your detriment that.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Well, and to add to this, there have been people who
we have sat with and they'vebeen like, yeah, I don't want to
be in this marriage anymore.
This is a very like this, this,like I've hit the end of the
road, or like I want to leave myjob, or like there, there can

(25:05):
be very big realizations thatcome from this that also affect
other people in your life, andthose other people may not like
those big changes Right, yeah,but those changes are necessary.
That's why you're struggling inthe first place.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
And it's also like but this is my journey, right,
but I'm not asking you to change, or well, I was asking my
husband to change, yeah, causeit was either like if you don't
change, I have to leave, like Iam going to have to walk away
because this is way too fuckingtoxic, but again, environment

(25:45):
for me, you're healing.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
You're finding yourself.
Who's going to have a problemwith you changing?

Speaker 2 (25:51):
What types of people?
The people who benefited fromyou being the way that you were
before Right.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
The people who benefited from your suffering.
Yeah, so.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, yeah.
I think my suffering made herfeel like she was.
You were in it with her.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, misery loves company she was suffering too,
and so you guys, like we, bondedon a lot of you trauma bonded,
we absolutely trauma bonded,like we bonded on so many things
like oh, you don't have arelationship with your mother,
and neither do I, but she chose,oh you married an alcoholic.
So did I.
She chose to stay in thattrauma, though, yeah, where I

(26:26):
feel like healing is likelearning to like.
It takes time and it takes, youknow, a lot of work, but it's
like learning to like be okay,sitting with yourself, learning
to find the joy, learning tofind the happiness.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Well, and that was the thing too, like when we were
in the height of like thethings that were happening,
there were people she was likedefending herself, like.
But I've gone through this andI've gone through this and you
have to forgive me and I'm likeI have also gone through ABCD,
like I think you're forgettingthat we had very similar
childhoods and upbringings andmarriages.

(27:01):
I've also gone through thosethings, but I've healed those
things not healed, but I amhealing those things and I'm not
using them as an excuse to bethe way that I was.
I used to, but I don't anymoreof all of that was like the

(27:27):
spiritual awakening part of itwhich really fucked me up a
little bit, because I used to be, I was raised Christian, but I
was always a rebel, never reallyfully believed in it.
Um, so I was I would considermyself, um, maybe an atheist or
an agnostic before my mushroomjourney and the things that
started to happen and I'm notjust talking like number signs.

(27:48):
I did see a lot of number signs, but the things that started to
happen in my life after myjourney couldn't have been
explained in any other way otherthan there was some type of
higher power stepping in and Icouldn't ignore it.
I was like what the fuck ishappening?

(28:09):
I don't believe in God, butthere is something bigger than
me here and everything I thoughtI ever knew is has literally
just been turned upside down.
Um, so, anyway, all of that tosay, a year later, when I was in
my deep dark depression, Iended up doing another journey
and it pulled me out of the darkplace and it kind of reset me.

(28:31):
And at this point my husband wassober, so like, okay, I've got
this safe place now, like thisisn't a thing anymore.
And then he started to see thepatterns of behavior in his mom,
and so that felt safe.
Because I was like, oh, finally, like someone else sees what I
see, mom.
And so that felt safe.
Because I was like, oh, finally, like someone else sees what I
see.
So it was still a journey toget out of it.

(28:56):
I don't think.
I think honestly, if he hadnever done a journey and if he
had never gotten sober, I wouldhave had to have walked away A
hundred percent.
Believe that I don't thinkanother journey would have saved
me.
Believe that I don't thinkanother journey would have saved
me.
And if I had stayed, does thatmake sense?
Yeah, okay.
So you and I were talking andI'm going to bring this
conversation up that you don'tremember having, oh gosh, when

(29:16):
we were painting this room um,and it was several months after
your first journey.
we were talking about it and youwere coming to me with like,
and this is happening?
And I'm like, yeah, that'snormal.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
I don't even remember what this is happening.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
I'm like yep, but I just remember talking to you and
saying like everything you'regoing through is is so normal.
You're going through exactlywhat I went through, but I need
you to know that, like you haveme to talk to because I've gone

(29:53):
through it and that made all thedifference.
And I'm not saying like I madethe biggest difference, but like
no, but you did.
I'm like motherfucker, I wish Ihad that.
Whenever I came out of my darkhole, I started like looking on
Instagram and there were peopletalking about dark night of the
soul and I was like is that whatI went through?

(30:16):
There are spiritual coaches thathelp you get through that dark
night of the soul, because I canabsolutely see how, without the
right information and support,you can get stuck in the muck
and it becomes existential dread.
And it's kind of like that memewith the guy on the bus and

(30:41):
there's like two sides of thebus and one is like dark and
weary and he's like what's thepoint, you know?
And then on the other sidethere's another guy and he's
looking out the window and it'slike beautiful and sunset and
grass and he's like what's thepoint?
Yeah, you know both of thosethings are true, but it's in the
way that you look at it.
Does that make sense?

(31:03):
Absolutely, can you stop sayingthat?
Okay, thank you.
So do you feel like you relateto that Like I do?

Speaker 1 (31:13):
Okay, so, like I have a lot of empathy and compassion
for you because you reallydidn't have anybody, whereas I
had the support of you and I hadthe support of Tony.
Um, but like before I I didthis, I was somebody who was
like very black and white in mythinking, very, very black and

(31:34):
white.
Like this person did something,so that means they're bad.
And then this person, who otherperson who is in this situation
, that means they're good.
Um, like even Tony and I'sfirst date, for example, and
again I've been burned, I've,I've been divorced, like I've.
Again I didn't grow up.

(31:54):
Yeah, I didn't grow up with afather Like I'm going to stress
this, um, but I was he he'sagnostic and I grew up Christian
.
I don't feel like I had thatreligious trauma that you had,
but I was like if you're good,you are a Christian, if you're

(32:14):
not, you are bad.
Because just that conditioningyou grew up like Catholic coded.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yeah, I would say, that's what I would call you
there wasn't pressure therewasn't.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
It never resonated with me.
But I like was like it's justsomething that you just kind of
have to do to be good.
Like listen, any of the sermonsI went to it was like in one
ear out the fucking other.
I took a nap Like I wasn'tpaying attention because it
didn't resonate with me.
Yeah, but it was something thatI was conditioned to.

(32:48):
Like this is how you have to beto be good.
And um, our first date, like hetold me that he was agnostic.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
He he, he's a serial killer.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Well, like his mom grew up with a lot of religious
trauma from her father and sohis mother did not do that to
them, so he's like I don't knowwhat the truth is.
I don't know what to believe,but what I do believe is like
the religious people in myfamily they weren't great people
and they use their religion tocontrol and manipulate and I

(33:19):
don't like that.
I don't like that judgment andthat just like rocked my fucking
world Cause I was like soyou're bad.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Oh shit.
So what you're saying is you'rea baddie.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
But but right.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
But I.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
I like equated it.
I was like, oh God, I don'tknow if I can do this because
like he's agnostic, Like, andthen like to think now I'm like
bitch, you didn't believe it,Believe in it either Can.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
I ask you if your ex-husband was religious?
No, okay.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
We it was.
We weren't religious, but wetied ourselves to Christianity
because that's what everyoneelse, that's what everybody does
.
Okay, so you were like well,he's a Christian, right, we're
not going to go to church, we'renot going to talk about
religion.
Right, we're not going to go tochurch, we're not going to talk
about religion, we're not goingto do anything, we're not going
to embody anything.
That like, whatever.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
But we grew up Christian, so we're Christian,
right, but look what he did.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Right, cheated, lied, all the things.
Yeah, right, right, right, allthe things Right.
So then I, even on our firstdate, I was like brought up.
It's like the two things youdon't bring up on a first date.
Politics and religion, politicsand religion.
And I brought it up and I waslike, if you believe this way

(34:33):
and I'm not going to share whatway it is Right it's wrong,
you're wrong.
And I was so black and whitewith my way of thinking because
I was like, if you believe thisway, you're a bad person.
I was like, if you believe thisway, you're a bad person,
you're a racist, you're this,you're that, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,damn.
And he was the one who was likeI really disagree with you.
So he challenged your beliefs,he did, and he made me

(34:56):
incredibly uncomfortable, likewhen we first started dating,
because he was, he was kind andhe spoiled me and he was
reliable and he was loyal and hewas sweet.
And I was like, fuck this.
It felt so uncomfortable, itfelt very, even our first
Christmas he gave me like hespoiled me on Christmas.

(35:17):
I didn't know what to do withit because I've never I'd never
had that, because I've never I'dnever had that.
But and I think, like you know,my mom had to be that way, but
there was a lot of like rigidityin the way of thinking that
maybe got definitely got passedon to me that I didn't realize

(35:40):
that that's what it was.
And so when I did this journey,my first journey, it turned my
world upside down in that way.
Okay, so like I would be likethat person is bad, but then

(36:00):
after the journey, I'm like,well, they went through a lot of
trauma and there's this andthere's that and there's this,
and you know are like there's alot of gray in life.
There's not a lot of black andwhite, there's a lot of gray.
And I was very like this iswhat I believe and I hold firm
in that belief.
And it took all of that andfucking Flipped it on its head.

(36:24):
That and fucking flipped it onits head and so, like you know
again, was diehard that I was aChristian.
That went away was diehard.
That I was like had thispolitical stance that went away,
like a lot of who I thought Iwas, and it was very black and
white that went away, likeeverything I thought I knew I

(36:49):
was like.
You're wrong about that and youweren't necessarily wrong.
You were conditioned in thatway.
It's not you.

Speaker 2 (36:58):
Can I also mention something else that I realized,
like it probably happened alsoin that first year, cause we
started the podcast only a fewmonths after your first journey.
Oh, it was like for me it waslike two years after my first
journey, so I had already kindof gone through this giant right

(37:20):
, giant, dark, fucking night atthe soul realizations.
But with you, knowing you eightyears ago, as I knew you, the
story I got was um, my dadwasn't around.
My mom's a saint, she's my hero.

(37:41):
She raised this many kids, wasa single mother and within that
first year some things startedshifting with that too, and it's
hard because it's a delicatesubject.
But I will say, like the samething has happened with my mom
and my relationship with my momit has absolutely shifted.
But you were like wait a minute, there are multiple stories in

(38:08):
this and it's not just that likemy dad was bad and my mom was
good, so that I remember whenyou were going through that was
like a really big fucking deal.
Yeah, because it fucked yourwhole, not identity up, but it
kind of like fucked up yourwhole.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Like this is the way I've always thought it was Right
, like I idolized my mom and Ihated my dad, and it took me a
minute.
It took me some time Cause Ithink you have to like go
through this process where,after I did it, then I got

(38:52):
really angry with my mom becauseI realized that, even though
she was physically there and shewas the physically present
parent, there were still thingsthat I didn't get, that I that I
really, really needed from mychildhood, that I didn't get
from my mother and I didn't getfrom my father.

(39:13):
It was both, and that's okay.
And again, I cannot stress thisenough she did the best that
she could with what she had, theknowledge that she knew Like
again, we've learned so muchmore about mental health and
healing and how to talk to ourchildren and our parents didn't
learn those tools.
I get that Right, but thosewounds were still there, and so

(39:37):
I had to go through a little bitof a process where I felt
really angry at her.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
I'm going to go through some of that in a minute
.
Okay, I think you probably cameinto this process thinking, oh,
I've definitely got some fatherwounds.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Oh, I knew that.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
And I wore it as a badge of honor and you probably
didn't realize there were motherwounds too.
Yeah, and that's kind of whereI'm like there were mother
wounds too.
Yeah, and that's kind of whereI'm like doing this shit will
like wake you up spiritually,emotionally, all of the things.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
Here's the other thing.
Because of the fact that shewas a single mother and because
of the fact not only did I nothave a father, I didn't have any
safe adult, especially in menshe was very hard and so I grew

(40:40):
up carrying that hardness andtoughness, carrying that
hardness and toughness and likeI had to, there was, and again
she knew what she knew.
But I had to go through alittle bit of that like anger
and resentment towards her thatI was hard to.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
And wasn't it you who told me like single mothers
have to be in their masculine?

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Yeah, they don't have a choice.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
They don't have a choice.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
Because, I mean, think about it, they have to be
the mom, they have to be the dad, they have to be the nurturer,
but they also have to be theprotector and the provider, like
I have so much empathy for anysingle mom out there being
raised by a single mom, and itwasn't just she was a single mom

(41:29):
, she was a single mom.
She didn't have any supportfrom parents, from like aunts
and uncles, family members,nothing with six children
working as a social worker.
She worked, busted her ass,like she was always working like
three jobs, so it's like shehad to right she couldn't like,

(41:50):
and so I understand that now shecouldn't.
Um, she couldn't show up for mein certain ways because she was
just trying to survive and keepfood on the table and a roof
over our head and clothes on ourbody.
Like I know that, but I had togo through those emotions from

(42:13):
her too, that I, even though shehad to go through that, I was
still a child that didn't getwhat they needed from their
mother.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
And it also doesn't mean that she was a bad mother.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
She was a very good mother and she did the best that
she could.
I cannot stress this enough.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
That's where that though, is where if you and this
is where it was with with, likemy mother-in-law, like we
couldn't bring anything to herthat was negative, like, or she
would immediately go into thedefense, like I'm not a bad
person, I'm not a bad person,I'm not a bad person.
We're like no one is sayingthat yeah, we're just saying

(42:52):
this behavior is harmful, and Ialso was so like anytime, maybe
I started to share how I wasfeeling about my childhood.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
People would be like you should be so grateful
because your mom brought youhere, Like she gave you this
life.
She's worked so hard and it'syes.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
That's also true.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
That is true, but also, yes, I was a child who
didn't get their needs met.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
I don't think people realize how much I'm so sorry
You're on cry number two today.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Oh my God, yeah, no.
So I felt very um, gaslight,gaslit to not have those
feelings.
Yeah, because it was like youshould be.
It's.
I guess the best example Icould give is like when a child

(43:56):
gets adopted and they havefeelings of grief because they
don't have a relationship withtheir birth parents.
You know, their birth parentsplaced them for adoption,
whatever it is.
It's a very complex situationand I don't care what anybody
says.
It's trauma, no matter howamazing those adoptive parents

(44:19):
are.
But when people say to childrenand they're like but you should
be so lucky that you wereadopted.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
And I'm like like let's bypass all those other
feelings, yeah, and I'm likefuck you.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Because you know, like for Kai, for example, like
I have an understanding thatlike that is trauma for him, and
there is one there, like oneday it will probably come up,
and what am I supposed to do?

(44:54):
You should just be so gratefulthat I, that I, you know, you're
with our family and blah, blah,blah.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
It's like, no like fuck off with that thinking.
I think we acknowledge thegrief and the sadness and that
whole process that comes withthat Right, because that in
itself is a process that somepeople get stuck in, sometimes
to the grieving process.
So so yeah, that's interesting,like the rigidity and like I

(45:24):
think the world would be.
There's like an epidemic of ofmillennials going non-no contact
with their parents oh yeah,that waking up because there's
language around behaviors.
Now that's why I love a fuckinglabel, because I didn't know
what gaslighting was until I sawthe word and the definition and

(45:46):
I was like, oh my God, that'swhat's been happening to me, or
the silent treatment I didn'tknow that was a thing.
So once I had a word attachedto the behavior, I was able to
articulate what was happeningand recognize it when it was
happening and call it out whenit was happening.
So it's like that's why I lovea label.
I love words, I love language,yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
I didn't know that sibling abuse was a thing.
I thought abuse had to comefrom a partner, a parent, like
an adult figure.
I didn't know that siblingabuse was even.
See, it's a word If it's a word.
If it's a word, it's real well.
But then people started talkingabout it and I started seeing
things and because, again, a lotof times people would be like I

(46:28):
mean, yeah, you know how she is, or she's just a bully, or you
know, and I'm like excused, oryeah, I'm like lost over it
feels a little bit more thanbullying.
I don't know call me crazy, butlike I actually feel, like I'm
getting abused.

Speaker 2 (46:40):
It doesn't seem like typical sibling bickering.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah, this feels a little deeper than that.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Maybe I'm wrong, right, yeah, no.
So I think, um the epidemic of,like millennials, cutting
parents off or going no contact,I think is because they are
trying to have theseconversations with their parents
and their parents are like.
I think is because they aretrying to have these
conversations with their parentsand their parents are like.
I did the best I could.
I was a single mother.
I'm just giving this as anexample, but like you know, your

(47:08):
dad wasn't around and I had todo this and I had to do this,
and it's like I know that, butall you have to say is like I'm
really sorry that I wasn't therein that way.
I did the best I could, butthat rigidity keeps people from

(47:31):
being able to acknowledge thatboth of those things can exist
at the same time.
No one's calling you a badperson because I told you I
didn't have my needs met, right.

Speaker 1 (47:42):
Even like we've.
We've shared this before, but Ihave I feel this guilt for like
our beginning episodes because,again, like what you said
earlier, when we first startedrecording, I was like a month or
two out from my first journeyever, so a lot of stuff was
coming up for me.

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Looking back, maybe we shouldn't have done that, but
I also feel like it was a lotof like learning for you that
otherwise wouldn't have happened.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
Absolutely.
And I cringe at those earlierepisodes because I was still
very much in it and very like,had anger, a lot of anger, and
like stuff.
Everything was coming to thesurface, yeah, but it was my
truth at that time and what Iwas truly experiencing at that

(48:29):
time.
I'm in a much different place.
I feel like I'm much moredetached to it because I don't
need those things from thosepeople anymore and it's okay and
it's not like a place of like Idon't need that from you
anymore.
I'm like it's not a place ofbitterness, it's like a place of
acceptance and and I can givethose things to myself.

(48:51):
So I don't need you to show upin that way for me anymore.
I did at that time.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Can we also talk about maybe the fact that, like
you, did have friends that youthought would be supportive and
literally stopped talking to youbecause you were micro dosing?
Yeah, so, and that is probablythat flipped me on my head

(49:16):
Someone you thought, wanted thebest for you always.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
That's somebody who used to be the godmother of my
child right, somebody you neverin a million years would think
would like turn on you when youstarted to heal yeah, and it's
crazy because there were a fewsituations so this person
literally, like I thought waslike my biggest ride or die ride

(49:40):
or die like was so supportiveof like everything I was doing,
you know, with the gym, with myson, like all of that, so that
flipped me on it on my head.
But when, um, I shared with herand this was over text that I
had done a journey, she was veryweird about it.

(50:03):
And this is like another thingthat's interesting and and like
earlier we were talking aboutlike pleasure and how, like, if
you're just sharing yourexperience, it makes other, it
can make other people feeluncomfortable.
Yeah, and that's how I feltwith a lot of friendships, and
that's how I felt with a lot offriendships in this part of my
life where I just shared what Idid, and it was like, oh my God,

(50:26):
I could never and I'm like I'mnot telling you to, I'm just I'm
just telling you what I did.
I'm just telling you what I did.
I'm not I'm not like a salesmanfor this.
Now do I believe in it and I,and I love it.
I don't think it's for this.
Now do I believe in it and I,and I love it.
I don't think it's for everyone, but, like I'm just sharing my
experience because I love youand we have this friendship and
I want you to know what I'vedone.

(50:47):
That's made me feel good and Ilike made me find myself and, um
, it was a very weirdinteraction and we didn't talk
for a while and then she reachedout to me and she was like, she
said something like you know, Ijust don't know if I can like
hang out with you, if you'rejust like microdosing and doing
drugs all over the place and I'mlike thinking in my head okay,

(51:09):
you did one mushroom journey andI was alone with Leah on a
couch.
I went, wore an eye mask and Iwent into my own subconscious
for an hour.
So I'm not understanding whypeople are triggered or are mad
about this.
And then I also had a friendwho, when we released my story

(51:32):
or whatever, she reached out tome and she was like oh my God, I
didn't know all of that and I'mlike well, I didn't know it
either at the time.
I was just I was so deep in thetrenches I didn't even know how
to vocalize that to otherpeople.
And she's like thank you somuch for sharing your story.

(51:53):
Well, turns out, she was nothappy for me, that was.
I don't know what thatconversation was, but like she
was not happy for me.
That was.
I don't know what thatconversation was, but like she
was hating on me behind my backand like, I think, making fun of
me and and and um, I think theworst part of it is is, uh, a

(52:14):
lot of people that I grew upwith knew, you know, the
struggles I had with like racism, being a single, you know,
growing up in a with a singleparent, like not having a dad,
like having an abusive sibling,having an eating disorder.
But then when I talked about iton the podcast, they really

(52:34):
dismissed my trauma and werevery like she was, was popular,
like what would she have tocomplain about and kind of like
that, and like kind of talkingabout me to each other and like
yeah, and diminishing myexperience essentially.
um, and I ended up finding out,but what was interesting is I

(52:58):
never said anything.
I didn't say anything for ayear, year and a half, and I
don't know what happened, but Ithink that person started to put
together that I knew what theywere saying.
Ah, because I was like thisisn't worth a conversation
because they're not going totell me the truth.

(53:19):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 2 (53:22):
I see it's worth it.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yeah, and I see you like, I see you like, you know,
and it's like and if there's not, there's not a fight, there's
not hate, there's not whatever,just removing myself and I
literally didn't even talk toanybody else about it besides
you, um, on purpose, and butyeah, I ended up finding out,
and so then that person reachedout to me and wanted to be
friends again.
But what they said when we hadthis conversation I'm like

(53:45):
listen, I'm not like trying totalk, and that's the other thing
.
Like I'm not trying to talkanybody into this.
Like I don't understand whypeople are just triggered
because I'm just saying that Iuse this medicine.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
This was my experience.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
I don't like I'm not trying to push you or like you
don't have to believe in it, butlike I experienced this for
real.
I'm not making this shit up,right, and so I just want to
share and it be a safe space.
But they listened to theepisodes and they said something
like in this conversation um,like oh gosh, uh, oh yeah, I

(54:26):
don't, I don't listen to yourstuff because it just it's just
not my thing.
But then a little bit later, inthat same conversation, they
were saying that they listenedto the episodes to hear if I
would talk about them.
Talk about them, shut up.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
And I'm like, so you're listening to see if I'm
talking about you.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
But what's interesting is for that year
time I distanced myself and theyknew that and they continued to
do that and talk about me.
So I just shared and again mesharing my experiences with
losing friends or where I'vechanged or grown.

(55:10):
It's not to talk shit, it's tojust authentically share how
hard this stuff is and what itcan really do to your life and
how it can literally.
I mean the whole point of thisepisode is how it can literally
flip your world upside down, andfriendship is a part of that.
But they listen to, not hear me, they listen to see what I

(55:32):
would say about them and I didshare my experience, but I'm not
calling out anybodyspecifically.
I'm just saying I've lostfriendships because I felt like
people didn't see me and seewhere I was at and and so I just
kind of like didn't make a bigdeal, Didn't tell anybody, but
just slowly backed away because,like I want to be in places
where I feel seen and where Ifeel safe.

Speaker 2 (55:55):
I feel like that was just a sermon I didn't forget.
But there's a friendship that Ilost.
That was probably the hardest,like a life, almost lifelong
friendship.
Oh shit, you haven't talkedabout that.
No, I haven't, because it'sreally hard to talk about, but
it wasn't.
It was like nothing happenedand I couldn't really explain,

(56:15):
except for there was like Icould feel myself not sharing
things because I felt judgedwhen I did so.
I would keep things to myselfand every time I would share
something I would be met withlike pushback or like what was.
I think the hardest part for mewas an episode with my husband

(56:40):
came out talking about hissobriety and what's wild is like
that episode came out and likewe had strangers messaging him
and people that we've known foryears reaching out and saying
like, oh my God, I had no ideahe was sober.
Like so proud of him,Congratulations.
Like so proud of him,congratulations.

(57:03):
And this person, who was likemy best friend, called me and
said I just listened to Jason'sepisode and I was like, oh yeah,
what, what'd you think?
And she was like I'm not buyingit, I wouldn't sit in a room
with him if you paid me too.
And it was like I found myselfdefending him because I was like
but he's not like that anymore.
Yeah, I don't buy it Like.
Like, but he's not like thatanymore.
Yeah, I don't buy it Like, well, you haven't been around him.
Like you haven't been aroundhim since he got sober, like

(57:26):
he's not the same person anymore.
And so that's when I kind ofstarted pulling away, like
little things, like he startedgoing to law school and I didn't
share that.
And when I mentioned somethingabout him taking the LSAT, she's
like I didn't know he was goingto law school and I was like oh
yeah, he's going to law school.
Why would he do that?
He's like 40 something.

(57:46):
Why would he start up?
Like everything was met withpushback and so I was like well,
this is why I didn't tell you,because I knew that if I brought
it up you wouldn't understandit.

(58:06):
So I just I started to likereally feel like I had to censor
myself.
I had to not share things thatwere happening in my life
because they weren't met withcuriosity at all.
They were met with a lot of.
I could feel the judgment.
Yeah, like I could feel itRight, right, right, and in her
tone and the way that sheresponded to things.
So it really made me pull backand say I don't know if I can do

(58:32):
it.
I want someone who's happy forme when I'm happy, not someone
who is I don't even know theword, but like triggered that
I'm happy for the first timeever.
You know like it.
It was just.
It was a really difficult loss.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
And we don't talk about that enough.
I don't think we talk about thebad things enough, because we
also, like, want to share thegood side of all of it.

Speaker 1 (59:02):
And here's the thing, too, with the hard part about
losing friendships.
Yeah, I think about thosepeople almost every day.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:16):
But I don't want to go back to that place.
I'm in a much better place.
But because it's like youshared like childhood memories
or you know, like they were withyou through like a lot of like
pivotal times, when you're likegrowing up and becoming a young
adult, like you know funnymemories, stories, so you really

(59:40):
miss that and that connectionthat you did have.
But it's like you've out,you've evolved into more and you
need more, and so thatrelationship dynamic has just
changed and it's okay.
There doesn't always have to belike this fallout draw out
something doesn't have to happenor anything, but it is, it's,

(01:00:00):
it's okay.
There doesn't always have to belike this fallout draw
something doesn't have to happen, or anything, but it is.
it's it's like like, oh my gosh,like you were really important
for like this chunk of my lifeand I I really appreciate you
and I love you.
Because I had that with you.
We've outgrown each other andwe, you know, I've gone this way
and you've gone this way andthat's okay.
But like I still think about itfrequently because I still have

(01:00:23):
like hold a lot of love forthem, but it just has to be from
a distance.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Well, there's this like thing where it's like I, I
feel like I can't be my fullself around you and I wish there
was a way that you could meetme where I am.
Yeah, but instead of meeting mewhere I am, I have to make
myself smaller for you.
Yeah, and I don't like doingthat for people.

(01:00:50):
Yeah, like I don't like nothaving the conversations that I
have, with the deepconversations that I have.
I don't like to wallow inself-pity.
I don't like to only talk aboutthe negative things in my life.
I like to hear the positivethings.
I like to talk about mypositive things without feeling

(01:01:11):
like I can't talk about this infront of this person because
they're really struggling rightnow.
You know it's hard, becausethat's exactly what it is.
It's like I have so much lovefor the people that I have lost,
but there is a big part of methat wishes you could just meet
me.
Meet me where I am, instead ofwanting me to go back to where I

(01:01:34):
was.
I don't want to go back to that, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
I noticed I started to really struggle with like
friendships, where it was likeall the connecting, like
conversations were about likewhat we did in our past, because
we had nothing in commonpresent day.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
I was just going to say there's like a thing,
there's like a whole thing withthat.
Like you can tell when mendon't evolve because all of
their conversations revolvearound and I'm saying men, but I
feel like it's with women too.
Oh, it's women, like whenthey're like sitting around the
campfire talking about theirgood old heydays in college.
It's like, why aren't youtalking about life right now?
Right right, what do you havein common right now?

(01:02:12):
I know you have all thesememories and all these fun times
together, but, like, what areyou going through in your
marriage right now?
How are your kids doing?

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Like I don't want to talk about the past anymore and
it's okay, Like sometimes, butI'm like.
I want you to know where I amnow.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
That's, and I want to know where you are now, like
truly like on a deep level.
And also, are you in the sameplace?
You've always been.
Yeah, because that's hard too,because I remember watching this
reel one time that was likethis is how you know when it's
time to let somebody go, um, andit's when you want more for
them than they want forthemselves.

(01:02:52):
Because that's it's really hardto love someone on such a deep
level that you want nothing butthe best for them.
But they are stuck in the muck,and not only stuck in the muck,
they don't want to do anythingabout it.
And you're throwing lifelineafter lifeline after lifeline,

(01:03:14):
and everyone else is too.
Everyone else is too, but theyare just this energy sucking
life force that is becomingincreasingly hard to be around.
I think since my journey, I amincreasingly more aware of the
energy that people put out andthe energy that takes out of me.

(01:03:35):
I don't know, would you agreewith that?
Like, I feel like okay, we don'thave much time, but I want to
say to Altered Roads and toanyone else who was going
through this dark night of thesoul, because it can absolutely
be soul crushing and feel likethere's no end and I think one

(01:03:58):
of the things that she said tome when she was opening up is
like why did I wait till I was46 to do all of this?
I went through that same thing.
I went through that same guilttrip of why didn't I do all of
this sooner?
Look at all the things that Ihave done in my life, look at
all the things I've ruinedbecause I was this way.

(01:04:18):
But I will say keep going,because there is an end to it.
And she said something.
I did respond to this.
She said something like if thisis what the other side is, and
I was like oh, no, no, no, no,no, no.
You're not there yet.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
Yeah, yeah, there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
You're not on the other side yet, like when we
talk about see you on the otherside, like you've got to get
through this muck first and thenyou're going to get to the
other side.
And then I truly believe thatfirst awakening is the hardest.
There are things that will comeup that will rock you to your
core after, but they're a littlebit easier to handle because

(01:04:58):
you've already gone through thislike great, big dark night of
the soul.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Yeah, yeah, cause it's like the first time things
are coming up that you've nevereven fucking touched Right, you
never even thought about.

Speaker 2 (01:05:11):
Right, you're like I didn't even know that was a
thing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
You're like what the fuck?
Right when now I'm like, orlike something that's always
triggered you and you're likeit's a trigger for me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
And then it triggers you after you do a journey and
you're like, oh my god, I justhad a flashback of when I was
five and this happened and, ohmy god, that's why that's such a
trigger for me.
Holy shit, like putting thoselittle pieces together and
you've said this before it'slike a puzzle, like every few

(01:05:43):
months you get a new littledownload.
That's the thing too.
People think that like thejourney is is the mushroom
journey, but it's like noboo-boo, it's the year that
comes after, because you'll have, like just a random thought or
a download out of nowhere orthis like puzzle piece of a of
information that you didn't evenknow was there, and it creates
this puzzle.

(01:06:05):
And here's what I think it isthe puzzle looks like something
completely different than whatyou thought it would.
Yeah, it's not the puzzleyou've been working on your
whole life.
This puzzle is like well, nowonder this puzzle wasn't
working, because I was using allthe wrong pieces and I was
trying to paint this picture,but this is the picture that the

(01:06:26):
puzzle supposed to be.
So every journey after that andI am not saying they're easy,
because they're never fuckingeasy.
But this one feels like the bigawakening.
That's why I think it's likecalled the dark night of the
soul.
Everything after that is stilldifficult, but you're like more

(01:06:47):
prepared, I think, and you'relike all right, this is going to
be really hard but I'm ready,well, and I think, I think you
know, like you kind of know thesteps, like you know that you're
, you, the steps.
Like you know that you're youmay have a hard time, but you
know you're going to get throughit.
So that's exactly like.
You know you're not going tostay in the muck this time.
Right, I was in the muck for alittle bit.

Speaker 1 (01:07:08):
And you kind of know what you need to do to, like,
get through that muck Right andyou know there's another side
and you're stronger.
Yeah, you have more tools.

Speaker 2 (01:07:23):
You have more tools.
You have more language aroundthings that are happening around
you.
Hopefully you have moreawareness.
Hopefully you have more of yourpeople.
That, too, that happens too.
Like the people who we've lost,has only made room for
different connections.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
Oh, and that's.
That's one thing I want to say.
Oh, and that's one thing I wantto say Losing people is really
really hard, right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
The hardest and again .

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
I am telling the truth when I think about those
people often and I have a lot oflove for those memories because
they helped shape me to be whoI am and where I'm at now.
But those doors closed so otherdoors could open up, and so
like being in this space andcontinuing to put myself out

(01:08:07):
there in this way and share mytruth, even if I've been met
with like what the fuck is wrongwith you, you're on drugs, what
you know, whatever shit Right,but like those people left.
So then people who are likeholy shit, that's really cool,
tell me more.
Tell me more about it.
That's really reallyinteresting.
I'm on this journey too.
Like I love the way you show up.

(01:08:29):
Yeah, the people who see you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
We'll see you then, and it might not happen right
away.

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
No, it might take years to build which we have
talked about this continuouslyhappen right away.
No, it might take years tobuild which we have talked about
this continuously.
And we are, you know, trying tolike put our brains together
and work on it, about likehelping people who live all over
be able to find support andconnection.
So find your people.

Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
To find your people, because we know how hard that is
, and we know that that'ssomething that's very needed.
Yes, I think it's easier for usbecause we have a platform
where we openly share and talkabout it.
I think it's much harder forpeople who don't have platforms
where they can share to findlike-minded people.
100%, we're just the ones outhere bearing it all.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
We're just the fucking three fives, you guys.
We're just sharing our threefives.
You guys, we're the three fivesSharing our truth.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
It's part of our design Our trauma, the good, bad
, the ugly.
So just really quick.
I know that the dark night ofthe soul can be challenging, but
here are things that can helpyou.
Seek support, connect withtrusted friends, family or a
spiritual advisor who canprovide comfort, guidance and

(01:09:44):
understanding.
Now we do one-on-one calls andwe have also gone through this
process, and those one-on-onecalls are not just for
microdosing or psychedelics.
If you are going throughsomething like this and do not
have the support of someone whohas also gone through it, we
would love to support you.
We can help you Like we can callyou.

(01:10:05):
Sometimes all you need is tohear that somebody else has gone
through it and they understand.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
Do you know how many times, like we've done calls,
where I've had a call andthey're they've felt like no
hope, like their, their mom,mom's.
This, their mother-in-law isthat, you know?
Whatever, all all the same shitthat we've been through, yeah,
friends, family, all the same itI'm losing friends right and
just maybe having someone totalk to a safe space and also

(01:10:32):
maybe somebody who is like, hasbeen through it, been doing it
for a while to share, like theirperspective.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
And like this, isn't this?

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
isn't where you are now and this isn't the end for
you this is.
This is kind of just thebeginning, I love that it's a
rough start Right.
It is a rough start, but like,like, sometimes that's all you
need to hear.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
Yeah, yeah, is that you're not alone?

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
Right, it makes you feel a lot less alone.
Yeah, you want to be witnessed.
People want to be witnessed,Maintain spiritual practices.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
So this one is hard because if you're new to
spirituality it can feel veryoff-putting.
For me it did, because I had somuch religious trauma so
anything that was a spiritualpractice to me felt ick.

Speaker 1 (01:11:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
It took me a while to be able to build those
practices and trust them.
It it took me a while to beable to build those practices
and trust them.
It felt cheesy at first.
It totally did Self-compassion.
Be gentle and compassionatewith yourself.
Recognize that this is adifficult period and allow
yourself to feel and processyour emotions without judgment.
Journaling could help Readspiritual texts.
So this is like read some books, look up some like you know,

(01:11:39):
mystics or theologians Thank youfor that, oh, wow, thank you or
spiritual figures who haveexperienced similar journeys.
Their insight can often offerperspective and hope,
mindfulness and grounding,professional help, patience and
trust.
Trust that this period, whileit's difficult, is temporary and

(01:11:59):
a part of a larger process.
Have patience with yourself andthe journey.
Also, forgive yourself for notdoing it sooner.
You were doing it exactly whenyou need to be doing it.
I used to think that, and thenI was like you know what?
I don't think I would have beenable able to handle this.
Yeah, at 26.

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
And also forgive yourself for the mistakes that
you made at 26, because we wereall in survival mode doing the
best we could, and so like yes,there may have been things you
would have done differently, butit's like you don't know what
you don't know.
Exactly so it's like learningto even love those that shadow
part of you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:36):
Yeah, physical care.
Ensure that you're taking careof your physical health, proper
nutrition.
Creative expression is one thatwe talked about with meg today
in that episode I think we'll,when this one comes out, will be
the episode from last week yeah, um, engage in creative
activities like art, music orwriting to express your emotions
in a non-verbal way.
And I also think there needs tobe a little bit of grace and

(01:13:00):
compassion for the grievingprocess.
You can absolutely grieve andthere's five steps to grieving.
And the first is denial, thenthere's anger, then there's
bargaining, where it's like whatif, or if only, or if only I
had done this sooner.
Why didn't I do this sooner?

(01:13:21):
That's like the bargain whydidn't I see this before?
Why was I so?
I dealt a lot with that with myhusband and the abuse that I had
been going through.
Like I was so stupid.
How naive was I that I like satin this and didn't realize it
was this toxic Like.
So, yes, there's that part ofthe grieving process.

(01:13:41):
And then depression that isalso part of the process.
There's nothing wrong with youIf you fall into another state
of state of depression.
It's part of the process.
Just know that you're going tocome out of it and you have the
tools to come out of it.
And then acceptance is the finalstage, and I think that that's
where maybe she needs to hear.

(01:14:02):
This is that like there'snothing you can do to go back in
time at this point to wish youhad done this sooner.
So just accept that what you'reseeing and everything that is
happening is happening for you,not to you, and accept that this
is part of the process.
That's good.
So that's all I got, and chef'skiss.

(01:14:26):
Seriously, give us a call ifyou guys are experiencing
anything like this, if you needsomeone to talk to, and you will
make it to the other side.
It's just a really hard journeyat first.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
We wouldn't have been able to have a podcast in those
first moments.
Yeah, again you guys.
I wouldn't have been able to doit.
I was on the podcast rightafter I did my journey.

Speaker 2 (01:14:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
You all have seen all the muck and it's yes, it's,
you're worth it, I promise.

Speaker 2 (01:15:01):
Yes, keep going.
Um, all right, stay open, becurious and we will see you on
the other side.
Bye, Bye, okay.