93 | From Ancestral Wisdom to Modern Healing (with Micah Stover)

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Imagine connecting with your ancestral gifts through psychedelic experiences. In this episode we sit down with Micah Stover, a psychedelic somatic therapist and trauma midwife, who shares her personal journey of uncovering a lineage of midwifery and integrating spiritual awareness with somatic experiences. Micah's story of rediscovering her roots and using psychedelic therapy as a tool for healing is both awe-inspiring and deeply insightful.

We explore how psychedelics can be powerful catalysts for healing birth trauma and fertility wounds, emphasizing the profound emotional and psychological aspects of pregnancy and motherhood. Micah's unique perspective reveals the mystical design of the woman's body and the importance of reclaiming its power. We also discuss the challenges of postpartum experiences and the limitations of traditional pharmacological approaches, highlighting the need for a broader conversation around these transformative experiences.

This episode isn't just about personal healing—it's about community and ethical practices in psychedelic therapy. Micah discusses the importance of consent, safe practices, and the role of self-responsibility in therapeutic settings. We touch on the wisdom of ancestors, the challenges of moving to a place with fewer conveniences, and the empowerment that comes from self-awareness and autonomy. Join us for a heartfelt and organic conversation that fuses the mystical with the practical, offering a holistic approach to trauma recovery and personal growth.

You can connect with Micah here: http://www.micahstoverconsulting.com/

And here: www.instagram.com/micahsugarfoot

Order her book Healing Psychedelics here: https://amzn.to/3MJK4Qn

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Okay, everyone, welcome back to another episode
of See you on the Other Side.
We have got Micah Stover herewith us today and I'm so excited
to talk to her.
So, micah Stover, you are apsychedelic somatic therapist
and a trauma midwife.

(00:21):
So I just want to like get outthe gate and ask this question
what is a trauma midwife?
So I just want to like get outthe gate and ask this question
what is a trauma midwife?
Good question.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, it is a good question and let me unpack it,
because it's not like a thingthat I went to school and got
some sort of certification thatsays trauma midwife.
I think that the language ofthe medicine is all symbol and
metaphor, and when I say thelanguage of the medicine I mean

(00:52):
obviously psychedelic earthmedicines.
And so in one of my earlyceremonies, when I was on my own
, starting my own healing path,I was at that point pretty
acutely aware that I had a lotof intergenerational trauma that
had not been unpacked.
And it was actually birth andpregnancy that brought me into

(01:14):
awareness of that.
And there's that expressionthat people often talk about it
in indigenous worlds thatwherever there's trauma that we
inherit also there are gifts,and sometimes the trauma and the
pain can eclipse our capacityto see the gifts that are there.
So in this particular ceremony,one of the intentions that I
went in with is like help me see, on the other side of all this

(01:38):
pain, what was going on with myancestors that I want to
cultivate, that I want to alsotap into.
And one of the first things thatreally came into my third eye
consciousness clarity was that Iam a descendant of a long line
of midwives on my father's sideand you know, at that time

(02:04):
there's so many fascinatingparallel parallels here, because
at that time midwifery was, youknow, a kind of witchcraft.
It was forbidden, illegal andalso saving a lot of people's
lives.
And so my ancestors, who werein like the back backwoods of

(02:24):
Appalachian Mountains inTennessee were, depending on who
you're talking to like thepeople who saved people or the
people who needed to be lockedup.
And so I just started realizinglike, oh, the women in my
lineage have always been in likethis midwifery place and

(02:45):
there's always been traumaeverywhere around.
And so my iteration of that isto be also in a birth space,
albeit not necessarily bringingthem for the fresh, brand new
babies, but like the rebirthingof spirits through this
psychedelic birth from pain intopotential, into purpose, into

(03:11):
alchemy.
So that's really where thattitle comes from is from a
lineage of being in midwiferyand working with trauma.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Wow.
Wow, I've been watching youover there, I'm like clipping
away.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
And I also want to just I wanted to say that I'm so
happy to be here.
I've loved finding your podcastand listening to it, and so
just also want to acknowledge,as we start the conversation I'm
really excited to be here andI'm so just also want to
acknowledge, as we start theconversation I'm really excited
to be here and I'm excited thatyou want to talk about these
sorts of things, because I thinkwomen really need to hear these

(03:53):
things.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Well, and we're really excited to have you here,
because this is like we talk alot about psychedelics.
We are both mothers, but wehave not really talked about it
in the way that I think we'regoing to talk about it today,
and so I'm I'm really lookingforward to kind of like diving
into this, this new territory.

(04:15):
I guess the other thing I wantto ask is how how would you
define a psychedelic somatictherapist?
That's also something I thinkmaybe a lot of our listeners are
unfamiliar with.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Sure, so yeah, it's a good question.
So I think one of the thingsthat I try to bring to this
world of psychedelic work islike the interstice, where
spirit and science can meet andnot fight each other for
somebody to win and be mostright, but commingle and
compliment one another.

(04:53):
So when I think about my workas a facilitator, as a therapist
, I am like, in spirit form I ammother, I am a trauma midwife.
I'm like like I read somewhereonce for those of people who
don't know, Ina May Gaskin.
Check her out.
She's like the mother ofmidwifery.
She's amazing.
No idea who that is.

(05:14):
I just-.
Oh, my God.
We talk a whole show about that.
She's amazing Bookmark, thatwoman.
But she said something like agood midwife is everywhere and
nowhere in the room, and so Ialways think about that.
When I'm with people in thepsychedelic space it's like, oh,
I'm everywhere up in that roomand also it ain't got nothing to

(05:35):
do with me, Right?
So a good midwife is helpingthe labor process to not stall
out, to flow, to be empowering,but also she's not inserting
herself, because it's likedivinity within the spirit
that's going through thispassage.
So that's kind of the spiritualexpression that I bring to the

(05:55):
work.
And then I also I'm totallylike a nerd and I love to learn
and I love to train, and so thepsychedelic somatic therapist
part is definitely my clinicaltraining.
It is a whole training.
There's a school called thePsychedelic Somatic Institute,
which is based out of Denver,and I'm trained through that

(06:18):
school.
And it's not the only modalityof therapy that I'm trained in,
but it's one that I have foundto be incredibly powerful and
yielding of lasting results.
And I think the main thing thatI'll say, just to keep it
succinct the reason why I thinkit's so effective is because it

(06:41):
really works with intention toground out these kind of
ephemeral spiritual awarenessesthat can emerge from psychedelic
spaces and conduit them throughthe somatic body.
So we're always working in apsychedelic somatic session to
say, okay, so this is thethought, this is the idea,

(07:04):
what's happening in the body?
Can we connect what's up herewith what's down here?
Oh wow, maybe if those thingsare moving in tandem we feel
more whole right.

Speaker 3 (07:17):
Yeah, Christine, you've talked about your last
journey, feeling very embodiedin it, in that being the first
time that that ever reallyhappened for you.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
So, that's that's interesting is connecting those
two, that and the other thing Iwanted to add the journey that I
had before that.
It was about all of myancestral trauma and
experiencing my ancestors trauma, not even my own.
And part of that journey wasexperiencing the trauma of birth

(07:52):
, so it was like me, literallylike being burned out and that
being a traumatic experience.
And that was crazy in itself,so yeah, and I've, I've done.
I've done somatic, um, I've donea somatic therapy session, um,

(08:14):
and it was wonderful, but I'venever done it with psychedelics,
yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
So it's like you know , the, the.
I always tell folks like the,the meds aren't the cure,
they're a catalyst.
We say that too, and same withsomatic work, like, okay, so

(08:44):
provocative things are happening, things are moving.
If we add in the right set andsetting, this elixir of a
powerful medicine, then thedepth and scope of what we can
get to and how we can, like,reconsolidate it inside
ourselves, inside our psyche, isjust amplified.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, yeah.
So with with psychedelics, howdo they assist in healing like
birth trauma and a fertilitywound, like what like?
Can you give like a more?
Uh, can you give like anexample of what like a session
would even look like, because Ifeel like this is such a foreign

(09:27):
topic to everyone.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
I could talk to y'all till the cows come home,
because it is just.
I mean, I came to psychedelicsbecause my first pregnancy was
fraught with kind ofcatastrophic incidents.
I had two placental abruptions,a vanishing twin, I ended up
with preeclampsia, my son whomade it.

(09:55):
We spent six weeks on bed restin the hospital, which is not a
very good for the nervous systemplace, even if people are
trying to take good care of youand then he spent his first
three weeks in the NICU and itwas after that experience that I
was like, oh shit, I have a lotof unresolved trauma and also,

(10:20):
from a clinical perspective, wasdiagnosed with postpartum
psychosis.
It's interesting.
Again, I want to bring balanceto what science says and how,
like a more indigenous curanderamight approach it, which is to
say, oh, I don't think you wereso psychotic, so psychotic.
I think you like tapped intothe ancestral cave and you were

(10:43):
hearing what all the women inyour lineage have been screaming
for years, which is likesomebody come save us from this
shit.
And so you know, I'm humbledand honored to show up to that.
Yeah, can I ask you?

Speaker 3 (11:05):
I wanted to get into that, like how you even got into
this space to begin with, andthat's like a that's a crazy
entry point Not crazy, butthat's like an interesting entry
entry point because we weretalking a little bit before we
started talking to you and shementioned earlier I struggled

(11:26):
with postpartum depression, withmy third child not having a
clue what was going on and Iended up being medicated about
for probably a year andafterwards, when I started
really digging in and healingand doing the inner work, I had
a completely differentperspective on what my

(11:49):
postpartum depression was andwhere it stemmed from.
And I think that that gets a lotof pushback, because so many
people are like well, no, yourchemicals and your hormones are
just off balance and so it'snormal.
And I was like for me, I had adaughter and I had a lot of
mother wounds and it triggeredso much of that because I had

(12:14):
kids before, but it didn'treally hit the same way.
So, yeah, I definitely thinkthat it's kind of on point with
what you're saying.
Like so many women are likediagnosed postpartum depression,
postpartum anxiety, postpartumpsychosis and I just think it's

(12:35):
a little bit deeper than thatand it's a hard thing to swallow
.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like.
I want to be clear, because Ithink sometimes I don't think
there's any like.
I don't think it.
I think it's too reductionisticto be like there's good guys
and there's bad guys in terms ofdoctors, clinicians and also
medicines, right, like I thinkthere's a.
There was a period, in order tostabilize, in which

(13:04):
pharmacological meds helped mestabilize, which was I'm not
ashamed to say it and I do thinkit helped.
But man, no freaking way wasthat going to get to the root of
what was there?
No way, no way, no way, no way.
So I guess I just want anylisteners who are like oh God,

(13:25):
I'm taking pharmacological meds.
Does this mean I'm not lookingat my ancestral shit?
No, honey, you do what makesyou feel like you can show up
until you feel like you have itin you to look deeper, and then
you go, and nobody knows thattimeline better than the mother
in her own body, right?

(13:46):
But the other thing that I wantto say and I get real fiery
about this is that these expertsand a lot of times they're men
who don't, I'm sorry to say, butthey don't know shit.
They may have a lot of training, but their body has never
delivered a baby, will willnever deliver a baby doesn't
know what it's like tomenstruate, and they're trying

(14:08):
to control the uncontrollable,which is the great mystical
design of the woman's body Ourcapacity to bring a soul from
some other place, where soulscome from, into this earth.
It's like it has beencatastrophized by the medical

(14:30):
model and that's like so manypeople in psychedelic spaces
recall birth trauma.
Why?
Because they're being pulledout by forceps, because they're
being induced before baby isready to come out, like.
I could go on and on, and on,and on and on, but I won't
because it's too much of arabbit hole.

(14:52):
I think we have to.
This is one of the biggestthings I think, as women healing
, we have to do is reclaim birth, reclaim birth, reclaim our
cycle, reclaim our darkness,reclaim all that Because, guess
what?

Speaker 1 (15:09):
That's where our power is, our power and our
pleasure, and we deserve bothand, if you really think about
it, I feel like women are theclosest thing to God, because
the fact that women can carrylife and create life like that's

(15:34):
a fucking.

Speaker 2 (15:36):
That's crazy If you just really think about it in
itself.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
And I feel like when women are pregnant, it's like
there's a lot of focus on am Ihaving a boy or a girl?
There's diapers and sleeplessnights, but we don't talk about
the deeper things that are goingto come with having a child and
bringing a child into thisworld, and those are things we

(16:03):
just don't even talk about.
Bringing a child into thisworld, and it's like those are
things we just don't even talkabout.
So then it's like this womangives birth and it's supposed to
be the happiest moment of herlife, but then she's struggling
with depression and it's like,well, I shouldn't be struggling
with depression.
I have this child and I justgave birth to this child and
it's beautiful and it is, butthere's often not support.
There's often not theseconversations about having these

(16:25):
types of feelings or your bodychanging or your hormones
changing and all of this.
It's just like diapers and kindof the stuff.
Yeah, it matters, it's allsurface.
Yeah, it doesn't really matter.
Yeah, so it's.
I think a lot of women struggleand then there's a lot of shame
that they're struggling.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yes, yeah, yeah, there's no village.
Like, where'd the village go?
You know like women are luckyif they get what six weeks off
work, and then you know they'vegot.
You know a couple of goodfriends who are available.
But when, especially if youhave intergenerational trauma,
and you know they've got, youknow a couple of good friends
who are available, but when,especially if you have

(17:07):
intergenerational trauma and youknow, most of us in like a
collection of a couple ofgenerations, I believe, were
raised by women who who became,technically became mothers but
never ascended to motherhood,they remain maidens.
So they raised us as maidens.
So we can't really go to themaiden for advice on how to

(17:31):
mother.
So, yeah, we're going to feelsome rage about that, because
it's like, oh shit, like youdidn't mother me.
No wonder I'm feeling all kindsof confused right now, right
here.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Holy shit, that makes so much sense.
I did not birth my son, butwhen he came into our lives I
owned a business.
I had two weeks off with him andthose two weeks they weren't

(18:08):
off and I didn't feel like I hada village.
And I'm very grateful becausehim coming into my life is the
reason why I closed my businessdown and started on my healing
journey.
And started on my healingjourney, but also it's been a
very big challenge because it'slike you're raising this human

(18:33):
and then, while you're raisingthis human and on your healing
journey, you're like, oh shit,like this is really challenging
for me.
I love to give these thingsthat my child needs, but it's
almost like pouring from anempty cup because you're giving
them things that you never got.
And so it's this.
I love to do that and I'm gonnado that and I'm gonna break

(18:55):
that cycle.
But also I don't have support.
I don't have a village.
I didn't get mothered in thatway.
I didn't get fathered in theway that I.
You know, my father wasn'tthere, like.
So a lot of things have shownup for me and there's been a lot
of grief that has come withbeing a mother.

(19:16):
That has been reallychallenging and it's something
that it's a daily strugglesomething that it's a daily
struggle.

Speaker 2 (19:28):
Yeah, it's a really meta, because you're like trying
to do all of these things thatyou don't have like a, you don't
have necessarily a felt sensebecause you didn't experience it
yourself.
So you're, you know, kind ofbuilding the plane while you're
flying it and then also grievingfor the child inside yourself.
That's like 25 different jobsto be doing at the same time.

(19:52):
And then also this is anothertheme that I have experienced
and I see it with so many of themothers in my care, mothers in
my care is that then, feelingthis kind of epigenetic load and
burden of needing to be socompensatory, and what I mean by

(20:13):
that is I got to do so muchbetter so that my kids don't
have all the things that I had.
So it's almost like doingtriple time.
And I think that this is a realopportunity, because what I
would say is that our kids don'tneed the absence of adversity

(20:34):
to be good, they need thepresence of repair.
So we didn't.
We're not so wounded becausethe stuff was hard.
Hard is actually whatcultivates grit and tenacity and
resilience, but hard, in theabsence of unconditional love

(20:55):
and repair, is crushing Right.
So for moms listening like giveyourself a break, because even
if we be telling our kids allthe right things and trying to
do all the right things perfect,they feel if we don't treat
ourselves with that same graceand compassion that we're

(21:18):
telling them to treat themselveswith.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:22):
Right that makes a lot of sense I have a friend who
is a self-proclaimedperfectionist and is almost like
I don't want to say proud of it.
She knows it's like not a greatthing, but she's like yeah
that's just how I am, and that'show my parents taught me to be,
but I don't want my children tobe that way.

(21:43):
I only expect perfectionperfection from myself, not my
children, and I'm just sittinghere thinking well, but that's
what they're going to emulate.
That's what they're going to seeLike because you have to heal
that part of you that feels likeyou have to be perfect before
your kids are ever going to beable to see that and realize, oh

(22:03):
, I don't have to be perfectbefore your kids are ever going
to be able to see that andrealize, oh, I don't have to be
perfect either.
Totally.

Speaker 2 (22:10):
And eventually they'll start mirroring it to
you, like saying but you don'tdo that, mommy, you know?
And then you're like oh point,the dissonance can exist, or we
end up certainly improving uponwhat we experience, but still

(22:35):
perpetuating some new version ofit.

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Get rid of that old saying.
I swear I feel like it's beenused for generations the do as I
say, not as I do.
I don't know a situation wherethat has ever worked out,

(23:00):
because that very much confusesa little child's mind Like well
then, why are you doing?

Speaker 2 (23:06):
it.
No, it's so confusing.

Speaker 3 (23:08):
You're saying to do this, but you're doing that.
So, like I'm trying to emulateyou, you're the parental figure
you know.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
When the other thing that comes to mind is like good
old Mr Rogers, what is thatquote from him?
Something like kids neverremember what you tell them.
They remember how, how theyfelt with you, right?
So I think that's the otherthing, is like another quote

(23:38):
that comes to mind.
Not to do a bunch of quotedropping, but this is one of the
things I think is mostimportant to think about.
As parents, carl Young said,the greatest detriment to the
child is the unfulfilled life ofthe parents.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
Right.
So for us, if we want our kidsso many, if so many parents I
don't think just moms, moms anddads, but definitely moms are
like sacrificing things thatthey want to.
I don't think just moms, momsand dads, but definitely moms
are like sacrificing things thatthey want to.
I got to do all these thingsfor my kid Meanwhile.
There's a message wrapped up inthere that I think is

(24:13):
definitely not intended, butfelt all the same Mom sacrificed
everything for me.
I have now child has guilt,mom's unfulfilled and child
feels responsible somehow forthat.
So it's really important, evenif it means we have to take time
away.
You know like, for example I'lluse myself as an example we

(24:38):
have a new baby that justappeared.
This miracle in our life thatwe've been looking for and
there's a little girl justshowed up, disappeared.
This miracle in our life thatwe've been looking for and
there's a little girl justshowed up and I'm supposed to
fly tomorrow to Denver for aninterview for my book and part
of me has had to really have bigback and forth with other parts
of me about you need to cancelthat.

(24:59):
You have this miracle thatshowed up.
Meanwhile the other part of meis like you wrote this book for
your kids.
You really not going to seethat through.
Uh-uh, girl, you're going toget on that plane and you're
going to trust that the worlddoesn't hinge on you being the
glue that holds everything inplace all the time, because that

(25:21):
might actually give otherpeople a chance to show up.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Because that might actually give other people a
chance to show up.
That's what the village issupposed to be for?

Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, so what is your advice then to mothers who are
listening, who relate to notfeeling like they have a village
or feeling like they'reparenting, but they didn't get
that type of parenting when theygrew up.
Um, and.
I guess, like how to justnavigate that without completely

(25:57):
losing yourself, cause it'slike there, you do want to heal,
you do want to do the work, youdo want to hold yourself
accountable, but it's it's, it'sa lot when you don't have the
support, and there are many momswho just don't have that
support Like cause it is it's,it's like it's it's giving, but
it's giving from like you haveto fill your own cup, but it's

(26:21):
also, you know, giving from kindof an empty cup because you're
not getting the support frommaybe the people who should be
there and they're just not.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
Yeah, I think this is a really good question because
I do see it come up a lot thatpeople almost feel like personal
shame about the fact that theydon't have a village, Like, what
did I do wrong?
And there's one of my all-timefavorite books is called the
Wild Edge of Sorrow by FrancisWeller.
One of the passages in thatbook says it is our greatest

(26:57):
grief that the village did notappear.
So I'm sharing that quotebecause I want people who are
listening to know this is notsomething that you did wrong.
The village should be there.
You didn't.
You didn't send them away.
We are like capitalist.
Greedy culture has deep, hascorroded the village.

(27:18):
It's made us hyperividuated andput that like as a priority at
the cost of the village.
So the village is something wehave to come back home to and
your village can start smallwith like two people who are
conscious.
That's great, that's a greatstart, and then it will grow

(27:44):
from there.
You know, like when we movedhere to I live in Mexico when we
moved here, we know a personand now we have a village.
But we've also been here fiveyears and it took time to
cultivate that village.
So I think I would also just sayremember that the village
doesn't have to be huge and thenit can start one person at a

(28:04):
time.
And also this is reallyimportant the person in your
village that has always beenthere and will never forsake you
is the earth.
So when I first got here, oneof the Coranderas that I love
and treasure said to me.
That I love and treasure saidto me honey, one of your biggest

(28:30):
problems is that you think thiswhole secure attachment injury
started with your biological mom.
It started with being made toforget that your original
attachment injury is not knowingthe earth as mother.
She's home Entry is not knowingthe earth as mother.
She's home, she's mom and sheis always like here for you.

(28:50):
So I think that that's reallyimportant for every person I've
seen actually change their lifewith psychedelics, through
healing, They've cultivated arelationship with the earth and
let that be like a pillar inyour village.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
I love that answer Not something that I was
expecting.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
No, I was telling Christine, you know, I think a
lot of great gifts skipped ageneration.
I, my mamaw, just passed awaylast month and she left before.
I was like curious enough, andshe had dementia.
So like even in the pastseveral years I haven't really

(29:34):
been able to like talk to herabout the things that I really
wanted nothing to do with as ateenager and as a young adult,
like I didn't want to know howto raise chickens, I didn't want
to know how to make bread, Ididn't want to know how to live
off the land.
Like that was like sounappealing to me.
And then, since, like thishealing journey, like I'm, like
I'm, I want to learn how to makebread and I want to learn how

(29:57):
to garden, and she had such abeautiful green thumb and could
do anything and I am like madthat I wasn't curious enough,
you know.
But again, like that's like kindof the earth being your mother,
like that wasn't instilled inme, that was not something that

(30:17):
was taught to me Like my momkind of went away from that too,
like oh my God, ew, we're notraising chickens, we're not
living on a farm, we're going tolive in the city, where
everything's convenient.
And I just learned that.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Right, that's that whole modern movement, and it
took us away from this idea thatevolving is about remembering,
going forward is about goingback, and I also just want to
say to you that, like you'reepigenetically, have all that

(30:54):
stuff your grandma had, like theeggs of you, existed inside her
body.
Even if your mom didn't teachyou, it lives in your dna.
So if you want to know it, justjust open it up that's
interesting.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
I'm like getting all emotional now because, um, I
have like reconnected with mymom in the past few years and
she does garden now and shenever did this when I was a kid,
like I had to tell my husbandthis the other day, cause I'm
like this is not the mom I knew,by the way, like my mom didn't
make food from scratch, my momdidn't have a garden, my mom

(31:33):
didn't live off the land, likethat was not what we did.
But I like she's coming nextweek to stay and I'm like can
you help me learn how to?

Speaker 2 (31:42):
garden, so it's just it's.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
I know that's like a little off subject, but it's
like.
You know, I I think we've beenso far removed from all of that,
so it's just it feels good tolike go back to it, and I feel
like some people would probablythink I was going crazy, because
I did not used to be this way.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
I mean, I think sometimes when we break away
from the myth of normal you knowGabor Mate's book then people
who aren't, when we unsubscribeto that myth of normal mass
consciousness, may say oh god,what's going on with her?
And I'm sort of like peace out,yeah, you guys keep keep paying

(32:35):
your fees to to be part of thatclub.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
Just not looking so happy over there, yeah how do
you go back to the real worldthough, Like genuine question,
Like when you're working with,with people who who kind of
start to feel this like pullback to what our ancestors did

(33:02):
and and the way that they lived,and and I'm not even talking
about like just farming, I'mjust saying in general when we
start to go back to that.
And then you see the worldaround you and you're like, oh,
it's just me, okay, all right,and it's not.
I know that.
But a lot of people feel alonein that.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Totally, totally, I mean okay, so concurrent themes
like the village, like as wecultivate our village, even
though we look around and theworld is like sick I would say
there's a lot of dis-ease in theworld.
We got like our growing villageand our connection at our root

(33:43):
chakra to the earth as our likeumbilical cord to source and
it's like, okay, you know, thisis, this is hard and I feel like
on the margins, but I feelsomehow still better on the
margins than I did when I was inthe center of that myth.
Right, yeah, and I do thinkit's also like a detox process,

(34:12):
like if in, if anyone has evergone through addiction or love
someone who goes throughaddiction, that that detox
process is gnarly.
You know, like when we moved toMexico, we lived in Portland
Oregon before and in those firstsix months of being here I felt

(34:35):
like I was detoxing the myth ofnormal.
There's no mail, there's noAmazon Prime here.
There is, but Amazon Prime islike a week, you know.
It's like normal shipping.
It's not.
There's no Whole Foods withlike 45 different supplements

(34:58):
for every possible thing.
There's like and I'm not tooproud to own that.
That felt really uncomfortablefor me in the beginning and
parts of me were like what the Fhave you done, girl, with your
two babies?
Where are you?
What are you doing?
Why did you do it?
This is whack, and over time,I've come to see that that

(35:23):
decision saved my life.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
That's huge.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
So for people who can't move to Mexico, which it's
funny because it's crossed our,it's crossed my mind.
Yeah, me too.
My partner and I have talkedabout like, about like.
Well, what if we just like?

Speaker 3 (35:51):
move out of the country.
Like how does that look like?

Speaker 1 (35:52):
we don't have, we don't feel like we have support
anyways, but people who are?
Here and just yeah, you knowhow our society is like.
What does session work with youlook like?
Like what types?
Of psychedelics do you use Like, what like?
Fill me in.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean and and that's a totally
fair question Cause a lot of Imean a lot of my clients are not
leaving the States to get thesecountries, you know.
But I do think that really, um,unsubscribing to the myth of
normal and all the myriad waysthat we're consciously and

(36:35):
unconsciously subscribed to that, and starting to cultivate a
village and a garden literal andmetaphorical, it's like you
know, we plant the seeds in thespring, we don't have, the
garden is at lush until thesummer, so really also like
shifting our mindset from thisimmediacy to at things have to

(37:00):
harvest, they have to.
There's a seasonality to it,right, and I talk a lot with my
clients about nature because,like I can't stress that enough,
every single person I've workedwith who's not only felt better
but stayed better hascultivated some form of like a

(37:20):
relational space with nature,and it looks different for
different people.
Uh, ongoing support, because itis, it is isolating, especially
if we're breaking generationalcycles and we can't talk with
our, our family of origins aboutthe stuff, because often we

(37:43):
can't, because often we get gaslit or various things happen,
and I think that community isreally important.
So there are lots of ways thatwe can tap into community.
There are, you know, I think,more and more emerging like
local communities ofconsciousness where, like you

(38:06):
guys have made this podcast tobring consciousness, to bring a
conversation to life that wasotherwise happening, you know,
behind closed doors, don't tellso.
Good job.
Like every time we talk aboutthese things, we create
opportunities for people to feelless alone.
Now to answer your questionabout medicine.

(38:27):
So I it is like my, myphilosophy, I guess if we could
say it that way on medicines islike part of the.
In indigenous culture they talkabout right relationship with
sacred medicines, right?
So part of that rightrelationship comes from being
invited to work with a medicine.
What?

(38:47):
What does that mean?
This is like to receive a callin your spirit.
So for me personally, my spiritcall was to work with
psilocybin.
So that is the plant spiritthat I work with.
I have studied it deeply withmany people and spent more hours

(39:07):
now than I can count in thatspace, so it's one I feel very
intimately acquainted with.
The other medicines that I'mstudied and trained to work with
are ketamine, mdma and alsocannabis, and one of the ways
that I think about it is likeplants are spirits, they're
sentient, they have like ahigher intelligence of their own

(39:31):
because they're livingcreatures.
Where, say, ketamine or MDMAare medicines?
Spirits can be medicinal, butthey don't necessarily in and of
themselves have a higherintelligence.
However, as medicinal tools,when they come into our brain
and create neurogenetic activity, they can help to unlock our

(39:54):
own higher intelligence.
So they're medicines that helpus to tap deeper into ourself,
as opposed to say plant spiritsthat are like bringing us into
relation with bigger spirits.
And so you can maybe deduce justfrom that explanation there are
times when I really recommendpeople don't start their first

(40:18):
experience with a spirit outsideof themselves.
Like if someone comes to me andI can tell that they're like
not even necessarily in touchwith their own spirit self
because of trauma and no faultof their own, I'm maybe probably
not going to say let's dopsilocybin right out the gate.
Because why?

(40:38):
Because before we start makingrelations with other spirits, we
need to know the spirit thatlives in the house that's our
body.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
I love that.
That makes sense, yes, cause Ihave been.
Um, we've talked about thislike wanting to have somebody
come on to speak on MDMA, andhere is our opportunity.
Like this might go a little bitdifferent than what you tangent
but, um, I love the medicine,Like it's something that I have

(41:12):
said personally saved mymarriage and I have always said
psilocybin was for me and MDMAwas for my marriage.
I've never done it solo but Ican absolutely.
Just knowing the medicine andthe way that it works, I can see

(41:34):
how doing that work solo wouldbe so powerful and beneficial
for connecting with yourself.
Um what is?
What does that look like?
Who would you have maybe startworking with MDMA, and do you

(41:54):
also work with couples with MDMA?
Or is it just solo work?

Speaker 2 (42:01):
So primarily my work, I focus on individual work, and
that's not because I also agreethat MDMA is great for couples
work.
I don't necessarily do coupleswork.
I have before and I startedhaving very strong like event
memory echoes of being in myfamily of origins.

(42:24):
I was very much the therapistbetween my two parents who were
always fighting, and so couplestherapy is a really charged
dynamic for me because it bringsup a lot of old stuff.
So I primarily work one-on-onewith people.
But now I'm going to reallytalk to you about MDMA.
So MDMA, like LSD, like ketamine, these medicines that were kind

(42:47):
of discovered accidentally andand or their original
application was for somethingelse and then it was like oh
what, wait, hold on.
So MDMA falls into thiscategory and people don't
realize this.
But one of my mentors told methis years ago.
He said you know, when theyfirst realized what this

(43:09):
molecule could do, the name thatthey were using to talk about
it was empathy, not ecstasyempathy.
So this is yes, this is soimportant because when I think
about MDMA, this is itssuperpower is that it evokes
empathy, and so certainly we can, we can understand how that

(43:31):
would be relevant within thecontext of couples, right,
because the inner kids arefighting with each other.
So then we have empathy.
Oh, I can see your inner kid.
Well, we also need that withourselves, because there's so
much judgment that we feel rightaround Like if we have
perfectionist tendencies or ifwe felt like we had to be

(43:53):
perfect in order to be loved, inorder to be accepted, then
we're often going to be outmyself so hard on ourselves.
So for someone like me, orsomeone who resonates with that,
mdma is such a powerfulmedicine of actually helping you
see yourself through that lensof like wow, not so much

(44:18):
judgment, but let me justempathically look at who I am.
Um, which is powerful.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Uh, so my last journey.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
I did mushrooms with MDMA, which we should probably
say we do not recommend foranybody who is like just
beginning and doing this on yourown.
Please don't do that.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
Yeah, this is, this is uh, um, yeah, I'm we're.
This is uh, um, yeah, I'm we're, we're three, fives, we're
experimenters and uh.
So, yes, I, I did this, um, andI grew up with an absent father
and my other parent was um, asingle parent, and so I've had a

(45:10):
lot of compassion for herbecause of that, but she was
incredibly neglectful and Iinternalize that and would try
to do things to be seen andoverachieve to be seen, and so
now it's been, I'm now realizinglike 36 years of being

(45:34):
incredibly hard on myself andputting a lot of pressure on
myself.
And so, with this experience,this journey with mushrooms and
MDMA, like my ancestors showedup and it was all about Like my
ancestors showed up and it wasall about you don't have to do
to be seen, you just need to beand and and work on that.
But the MDMA part that came inwas it was it was like okay, so

(45:58):
here's this lesson that I justgave you, and.
But now you're actually goingto like, embody it and you're
going to be in your bed andyou're going to, you're going to
feel what it means to reallylove yourself and and embody
that.
And it was very wonderful, itwas incredibly profound.
Like I came out of it and I waslike laughing and smiling.

(46:19):
I've really struggled withintegration, integrating that,
because that's a lot of years ofconditioning and the concept of
you don't have to do, you justhave to be.
That's a hard concept for me tolike.
Okay, what does that mean?
You know, I don't know like Ifeel still feel like okay.

(46:39):
So what do I need to do so Ican be?

Speaker 3 (46:44):
what do I do to be yeah?
How do I?

Speaker 1 (46:45):
do what are the steps that I need to do to be so that
that's.
That's been a little bit harderfor me and I don't even know
where I was going with that, butI guess where I was going is
the MDMA part, was I really gotto like embody that empathy and
that compassion for myself andjust being okay with who I am in

(47:08):
that moment is something whereoutside of MDMA.
It's been a little bit harderfor me, for sure.
So that was the first time I hadever done MDMA solo and I can
only imagine like doing solowork with that, how how one

(47:29):
could really develop someempathy and and love for oneself
.
So maybe I'll be calling youlater, yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Well, and I also appreciate what you said about
the struggle to integrate,because I do think that this is
one of the like every foreverything that has a superpower
, there's also like a challenge.
That's part of the balance, thetwo sides of one coin.
So MDMA, like part of thescience, of how it's working and

(48:02):
achieving the effects, is thatit like is like putting a salve
on your amygdala and ouramygdala is our fight or flight
response and so we don't just goto the response you know reacts
, place, so in that calmer statewe can see all of these things,
but as the medicine wears off,the amygdala is like I'm back,

(48:25):
I'm ready to do my usualdeployment, so do, do, do, do,
do.
And so I think I mean you knowit's worth mentioning, cause
there's a really big thinghappening with MDMA right now.
In the psychedelic world wherethe FDA we were on a, everybody
was like this is going to be theyear, this is the year like uh,

(48:45):
and they just tapped on thebrakes and it's like I don't
want to go too far into thatrabbit hole, but I just really
want to encourage people who arelistening that you don't have
to be scared of this medicine.
It is highly effective athelping people with complex
trauma and PTSD.

(49:06):
We've seen that with veterans.
The other study group that wasreally the most astounding
transformative results and thisisn't talked about as much were
victims of sexual abuse andsexual trauma, which I think is
just.
Let's think for a minute.
One is a war on the outside ofour body and another is a war

(49:26):
inside our body for a minute.
One is a war on the outside ofour body and another is a war
inside our body.
So in both cases MDMA it was areally helpful medicine for
people dealing with a kind ofwar inside or out.
Now what is going on with theFDA putting the brakes?
Oh, there's so many things, butit's not necessarily about the
medicine itself not being safe.

(49:48):
I think what we need to bereally careful and intentional
about is making sure that anyoneentering into an MDMA
experience understands that theexperience itself is likely to
be pretty darn good, but comingout is going to be like when a
plane lands.
You know it's often bumpybecause you've gone from this

(50:16):
place where all of the fight orflight responses of the amygdala
are sort of restraint, and thenthey're going to come back.
The medicine is not going tomake that stop happening.
It's going to put it on pauseso that you can start to build a
felt sense of what it's like.
If you're not in that rigor andthat is really important because

(50:37):
we can't replicate something wehave no felt sense of.
So like if I tell you, oh,christine, you need to do more
human being, less human doing,you would be like, oh, that
sounds really good in theory butokay.
But if we have a feeling oflike, oh, I felt that then we

(51:01):
can like any muscle, we canexercise it, we can work it, we
can build it, we can develop it.
But I think part of the kind ofchallenge that's happening now
with MDMA is that it was talkedabout in such like bravado,
promising terms because it helpsbut it doesn't make things go

(51:24):
away.
So I think listeners reallyneed to.
I feel an integrity to say thatthe integration can be hard
because the heart opening islike, you know, somebody took
crowbars and pulled it open andthen it feels really good when
we've been guarded for a long,long time.
But the guards aren't goingaway.

(51:45):
But now we have a felt sensethat we have to continue to work
with yeah, I sorry.

Speaker 3 (51:53):
I heard someone say this once that it feels like
open heart surgery, like in yourheart, is just like out on the
table and then without properintegration.
It just feels like you've justbeen left out in the open and it
can be very debilitating ifthere isn't that work that comes

(52:15):
after Um.
So and and I I do feel like,even though we're talking about
MDMA, I feel like that's alittle bit with all of the
medicines that we talk about onthis podcast Like this is not a.
You do it and you feel better.
There is work and it is heavyand deep and dark sometimes and

(52:39):
it is an integral part of theprocess of getting to that other
side.
Like you can't just come out ofit and be like, oh wow, that
was beautiful, like it's goingto get a little heavy and it's
going to test you.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah, totally Well.

Speaker 3 (52:54):
I was going to go often.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
No, no, you go ahead.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
Well, I was.
I was just going to say that,um, that I have struggled to
integrate this journey.
I have struggled to integratethis journey.
I did this journey in June andthe integration has been harder
than other journeys that I'veintegrated.
Like I felt like before thingsclicked, this it clicks, but

(53:25):
again, embodying it and likethat, that's been a little bit
more challenging.
Um, but like I am okay with itand I, I've, I've, I've been
like giving myself some gracethat this one is going to take
some time and some work and alsosome like, like a lot of the

(53:47):
things, a lot of the journeys.
Before I was like, okay, thisis what I need to do, this is
what I need to do, this is whatI need to do.
Or now I'm like, yeah, I'mgoing to kind of not commit to
anything.
And if something feels good, I'mgoing to do it, and if it
doesn't, I'm going to allowmyself to have a rest.
So I think a lot of like how mybrain works was like okay, this

(54:10):
is a problem, this is what Ineed to do for the solution.
Where this one has been like,you don't really have to do
anything for the solution.
I think you just need to workon, you know, being conscious of
loving yourself and givingyourself compassion, giving
yourself grace, giving yourselflike permission to have like, a

(54:33):
high day and a low day, andthere are days where you may
feel motivated to do things, butthere are maybe days where,
like, rest is part of that day,and that is OK, and that is okay
.
So, I think it just has looked alittle bit different because
it's been more of a place ofless doing and giving myself
more love and just compassion.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Whatever step I'm taking or if I'm not doing
anything at all, totally I mean.

(55:30):
So if the message or the lesson, how everyone think of it, was
human being, not human doing,then I would say your
integration.
If you're doing more, beingless doing, do do.
It's a lot of human doing, andso it's going to be like
disorienting to suddenly nothave like an action plan?

Speaker 1 (55:36):
Yeah, it feels uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
It does.
That's part of the healing, Ithink is like deconstructing
that whole mindset.
That whole mindset Again.
That's part of the rememberinghow to just be, how do I be and
not do, do, do.
And I always tell people, thebigger the lesson, like you know

(56:02):
folks, when they have a, really, because all ceremonies, I
think, are magical and importantand if we've had enough
ceremonies, we know that everynow and then there comes one and
it's like just a doozy.
It's like 10 ceremonies and moreand we learn a lot of stuff and
people are like often will feel, oh, this is going to be the

(56:23):
one that everything's differentafter and I'm like careful with
that, be the one thateverything's different after and
I'm like careful with that.
This is going to be the onewhere integration feels like a
holy shit because there's somuch you have to kind of carry
back Like, and part of me wantsto go back to the, the like
original theme of birth, youknow.

(56:45):
So it's like how much it's likelabor, right, Like how much
effort is it to bring a spiritthrough and also does not even
have to be through the channelof our body, like adopting a
child is a different kind ofbringing a spirit through, like
integration is like this, likethe ceremony, this information

(57:08):
comes through from the otherside and then the labor is like
learning to live.
It make it walk in our life.

Speaker 3 (57:23):
Another thing that I've heard a little bit about
from some of the older MDMAtrials People who and maybe I
should add a trigger warning tothis people who have struggled

(57:43):
with sexual assault or rape orsomething similar.
It can be incredibly difficultfor them to put themselves in a
state of vulnerability,especially with these types of
medicines.
What would be something youwould recommend?
Because I'm just going to sayfor me personally, if that was

(58:09):
something that I struggled with,I would have a very hard time
sitting with um, sitting with aman I, I feel like there would
have to be a lot of trust builtbefore that ever happened.
And so you know, christine, andI like I really only work with

(58:31):
women for that reason you knowso anyway, my, I guess my
question is like how would youwork with someone who struggled
with something like that and theconsent and the vulnerability?
What does that look like?

Speaker 2 (58:47):
Very carefully and as a survivor of sexual trauma, I
like have a really intimateunderstanding of this, not only
from a like training,theoretical place, but from a
like I know this inside myselfand you know I didn't work with

(59:08):
a male therapist until fiveyears ago and I was well into my
psychedelic journey before.
That even felt like a viableoption and then it felt like, oh
God, if I I'm a mother now, I'ma mother of two sons and a
daughter, but at that point Ihad two sons and I was acutely

(59:34):
aware of how their physicality,which is totally a normal
expression of their boyhood, wastriggering for parts of me
because of a history of physicalviolence with men, of a history
of physical violence with men.
And so it came to me like Ineed to be, I need to find a

(01:00:02):
male therapist to work on thiswith.
But that was okay.
So I'm 45 now.
I was 40.
And I've been what I've been onthis path already a long time
before that.
So I think you move into thatslowly and when you feel ready,
and then you vet the shit out ofthat person to make sure that
you feel like this person, justbecause the person has a title,
just because they are a shaman,just because they're, I don't

(01:00:25):
care and like it doesn't matter.
It's how your nervous systemfeels when you're in the same
space with that person, right,like for me, the person who I
ended up working with.
He's a host of a well-knownpodcast, and so I had spent, you
know, three years listening toevery episode of his podcast,

(01:00:47):
and it wasn't even really clearto me until I sat with him in
person that, oh, I've beenbetting you this whole time.
I've been checking you out tosee what you're all about.
So by the time I got to bethere with him in person, my
nervous system already had donea lot of assessment of him.
So I think that this is reallyimportant for survivors is a lot

(01:01:12):
of assessment.
Well, before you go intomedicine, work with anyone, and
when I'm working as a therapistwith people who have this in
their history, we don't startwith medicine too soon, because
there's this thing that wehaven't talked about.
In clinical terms, we call ittransference, and transference
means like the externalizationof all the trauma wounds onto

(01:01:36):
the canvas of the therapeuticcontainer in order to have a
corrective experience, right.
So if we go, it's like anyrelationship.
If we go from you go from zeroto home base right away.
That's going to yield so manyproblems, even if in the short
term of the ceremony it feelslike good stuff's happening.

(01:01:56):
The vulnerability hangover, thevulnerability remorse all of
that can undermine the efficacyof everything that came up.
So go slow.
The other two things I want tomention here because it's a
really important topic thatyou're raising, is that sadly,
tragically, there is a lot ofviolating behavior happening in

(01:02:20):
psychedelic spaces and we needto not shy away from talking
about this, because people canget really hurt here because
they're in altered states ofconsciousness.
So there's a great resourcecalled the Wheel of Consent,
which is written by Betty Martin.
There are classes on this andcertainly people who are

(01:02:45):
practitioners to familiarizethemselves with this work,
because it has so much to dowith how we navigate touch
within altered states ofconsciousness.
I'm of the belief that wereally shouldn't be putting our
hands on anybody Like if I'mlooking at someone and they look
like they're struggling, mymaternal impetus might be to

(01:03:07):
want to be like oh, honey, no,no, ma'am, that's my shit and I
need to remember everywhere andnowhere in the room.
So, instead of defaulting totouching them because I don't
know if that's really what theywant, and they might not even
have the the like cultivation oftheir voice to say no if they

(01:03:28):
don't like it.
So the first step is toacknowledge.
It looks to me like you'rehaving a hard time.
Am I reading that right?
How can I be of support to younow?
Like I might say, I'm going toput my hand out and if it feels

(01:03:48):
like it might be a comfort, youcan reach for it.
I'm not putting my hands onanybody because we have to be so
, so careful.
There are people out there whoare instructing patients and
clients to explore reparativetouch.
This is whack, wrong, no, no,no, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
That's kind of why I started going down that road.
I listened to a podcast thatwas very much the dark side of
this space and how it canabsolutely like re-traumatize
and it's not always you know.
It's like exposure therapy iswhat they call it, but it's for
sexual trauma, but it's not like.

(01:04:36):
It's like let me put my armaround you and how safety you
know, stuff like that where.
And in this, in this podcast,it didn't do the clients or the
patients any good.
It it honestly like made him,made it worse, made it worse.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
In my mind, exposure therapy is real Jeez, louise,
like baby steps, like so.
Exposure therapy, I exposuretherapy.
I have a client who this isn'tjust one client.
I've had many clients who, whenthe medicine comes on, because
of the nature of their trauma,they're like I can't handle this
vulnerability.
Can you leave?
Okay, so I cannot leave.

(01:05:15):
No, I cannot leave you.
You're in an altered state ofconsciousness and it's a moral
imperative that I stay here toensure your safety.
However, I want you to have thecorrective experience of
feeling like your boundaries arelistened to, honored and
respected.
So let's figure out how we canachieve that without me
abandoning you in a vulnerablestate.

(01:05:37):
Sometimes that's looked likeI've had clients say will you
turn your chair so you're notstaring at me?
Absolutely can do that.
So I had one person who said Iwant you to go all the way to
the door.
Can you just sit your chair inthe doorway?
Absolutely can do that.
And exposure therapy is thenlike with them leading.

(01:05:58):
I think it feels safe for youto come closer now.
Or, if I have the sense thatthey're trusting me more, I can
ask what do you think it wouldfeel like if I got a little
closer.
Are you open to try?
Okay, I'm going to scoot twoinches closer.
Sometimes people are like Ilike that.
Will you come closer?
Yes, I will.
Yes, I can.
Sometimes people are like getyour energy away from me?

(01:06:21):
Great, I'll do that.
This is actually correctivetherapeutic care and exposure
therapy, therapy, therapy, wherewe're letting people find their
yes and no inside their ownbody.

Speaker 3 (01:06:35):
Yeah, like they're leading, they're leading it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
Yes, it's been hard because we have learned, and I'm
grateful because I think a lotof people message us because
we're a safe space for them tojust talk and ask questions.
But a lot of people havemessaged us saying that there
are male and female facilitatorsthat are local who have had

(01:07:02):
sexual behaviors with the peoplethat they have been guiding.
And I, like I'm also somebodywho, you know, grew up with a
physically abusive father whohas also been raped and has
trauma with that, and so I can'timagine someone taking

(01:07:27):
advantage of me while I'm underthe medicine and what kind of
damage that can do, which is whywe have this podcast, because
we really want to, you know,bring education and harm
reduction to our listeners, sothese things don't happen, and I
hate that we have to have theseconversations, but
unfortunately we do.
So it yeah, it really is soimportant, like who got to

(01:07:53):
highlight the good and the bad?
Yeah, like who you are doingthis medicine with and and
making sure they really reallyare a safe space and you are
having these types ofconversations with them.
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
I think it's two, two things just to recap is like
really trusting one's intuition.
How do you feel when you'resitting with the person, Cause
they could have all thecredentials they could come from
20 generations of healers.
How do you feel when you'resitting with the person?
Because they could have all thecredentials they could come
from 20 generations of healers.
But if the person doesn't feela yes in that relational space,

(01:08:31):
then it's enough.
It doesn't mean the person'sbad, it's just we have to listen
to our intuition, right.
And then the other piece is togo so slow, like no hurrying to
the medicine experience, likereally taking your time to see
if that initial sense of yes orno does it hold up.

(01:08:52):
And also, last thing is Ialways encourage people to ask
practitioners when you're liketrying to find the person you
want to work with.
Talk to me about how you handletouch.
Talk to me about the hardestmedicine session or client
experience you've had and howdid you handle that?

(01:09:14):
How did you navigate repair?
You know these are reallyimportant questions for people
to feel empowered to ask.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Yeah, yeah, no, I I agree.

Speaker 3 (01:09:28):
I'm glad we touched on that it didn't mean to, but
it went where it was supposed togo.
Can you tell us a little bitabout your book that's coming
out?
By the way, it's in my Amazoncart already.
I know it's out in November,but yeah, let our listeners know
what that's about.

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
Yeah, so it's called Healing Psychedelics and, you
know, the topic that we werejust on is actually a large
impetus as to why I officiallydecided to write the book.
I started writing the bookafter my son was born and when
it began it was mostly like Ineed to write that.

(01:10:11):
Like I said, I was havingpostpartum psychosis or talking
to my ancestors and I washearing all of these stories
from women in my lineage, frommy grandmothers and my aunts,
and I was like I need to writethis down.
I need to write it down formyself.
I need to write it down.
Maybe my kids will want to knowthis history someday.
And it evolved over time, likethis is no longer my story.

(01:10:36):
I mean, my story is part of it,but it became a story of the
work.
And what does it mean to healwith psychedelics?
Like to actually heal, notspiritual bypass, but also to
heal the stigma aroundpsychedelics, which is like part
of the psychedelic legacy thatwe're trying to heal, part of

(01:11:03):
the psychedelic legacy thatwe're trying to heal that
they're bad and dangerous.
And the moment when it was like, okay, micah, no more hemming
and hawing about this anymore.
There was a young woman who Ihad known years before and in a
totally different capacity.
I wasn't even a psychedelictherapist at that time and she
was a mutual friend of some some.

(01:11:25):
We a mutual friend and ourmutual friend reached out to me
and said you know this, she'ssomething really bad has
happened to her and I don'ttotally understand what it is or
what it was, and I think it's.
My friend was a man and the shewas a young woman and he was
like I think it's sexual and itinvolves something psychedelic.

(01:11:49):
And at that time I was startingto work with psychedelics and
he was like I'm really scared,something is not going to be
okay with her.
So I reached out to her and shewas not okay, very much not
okay.
And so she had gone to aretreat in which she'd been
served a cocktail of medicinedidn't know what, all meds or

(01:12:11):
what doses and, yeah, instructedby a male facilitator to to
explore reparative touch.
And she doesn't rememberanything, like after he started
rubbing her shoulders.
She just doesn't rememberanything.
So this is like right beforeCOVID, when she and I came back

(01:12:33):
into contact, and so we didn'tlive in the same place.
She didn't have the financialmeans to come to Mexico.
I also wanted her to havesomeone who could support her
like regularly.
So we I was trying to help herreally build a care team in
California where she lived andthen COVID happened and
everything started shutting down.

(01:12:54):
This is like the worst casescenario.
And so a few weeks had passedand I got a message from her
partner at the time saying youknow, she's, she's, we've taken
her to a care facility becauseshe was unstable and they've
diagnosed her as bipolar andshe's on all kinds of meds, and

(01:13:18):
it was a disaster.
And, to not go into all of thegory details of this story, that
young woman ended up committingsuicide and I don't feel
responsible for her leaving, butalso I feel a commitment to her

(01:13:45):
and to the integrity of thiswork, because she's not the only
story like that and people needto know that this goes on.
We don't need to just sitaround all day talking about the
magic.
We cannot just be love andlight.
We have to look at the shadowswith equal commitment.

(01:14:08):
And so when that happened, Icommitted to myself and her that
I would finish this effing book, and most of the book was going
to be about harm reduction andher story is a chapter in the
book.
So the book is many things.
It's not just that story.
It's a story of all sorts ofdifferent kinds of traumatic

(01:14:31):
wounds, from pre verbal traumato this kind of inappropriate
violation within the psychedelicspace, to complex trauma.
And the idea is that you havelike a companion guide as you
read the book, who goes with youthrough the whole psychedelic

(01:14:51):
arc, from preparation throughceremony or altered states of
consciousness and then intointegration and each chapter has
some kind of like therapeutic.
This is how it goes, this iswhat to think, and then there's
a vignette of a client or couldbe my personal experience to
illustrate this is kind of whatI mean and all these theoretical

(01:15:14):
concepts.
And each chapter concludes withexercises and activities.
So that you know, in thisglorious world myth of normal,
where we're making things moreaccessible, we're also inflating
prices and there are going tobe many people who need this
work, who aren't going to beable to afford it.
And I want to be explicitlyclear in saying that a book can

(01:15:40):
never be a replacement for aguide or a facilitator or a
therapist.
However, if someone is going tochoose between doing it all by
themselves or having like acompanion guide through a book,
I'm going to feel a lot betterwhen I sleep at night that they
at least have this book in anyway that it can be helpful.
So that's a little bit aboutthe book and, yes, it will be

(01:16:04):
released in November and yeah,this is the book we wish we had.

Speaker 1 (01:16:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
We will.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
We will be sure to share the book, and I want to
just say thank you so much forthe work that you are doing in
this space, like.

Speaker 2 (01:16:22):
I said earlier.

Speaker 1 (01:16:23):
We've had a lot of people reach out to us with just
experiences and people saythings like, yeah, I went to
this retreat.
I don't know what I took.
I think I took ayahuasca, itwas this fruity drink.
And you know, we're sittingthere and we're like, oh, it
wasn't ayahuasca.
You know we're sitting thereand we're like, oh, it wasn't

(01:16:44):
ayahuasca.
You know, they should have toldyou what the medicine was, how
much you're taking.
There was somebody who went anddidn't know that there was even
medicine to be had.
There was somebody who went toa retreat and I think she, she
had, like, what was it?
She, she ended up having to goto the hospital.
Yeah, um, oh, my God, so it's,it's.

(01:17:04):
We hear these stories andthey're they're they're gut
wrenching and and we really wantpeople to be able to, um, have
a little education about themedicine that they're taking,
who they're working with.
We want people to advocate forthemselves and we even tell
people, like, don't just listento what I say, don't just listen

(01:17:26):
to what Leah says, like, doyour own research.
Um, if this doesn't feel rightfor you, there is no, there is
not pressure.
Like, do not do it, this is nota rush thing.
Um, you know, we want you tofeel.
We want you to feel safe.
We want you to feel like youcan advocate for yourself.
We want you to feel safe.
We want you to feel like youcan advocate for yourself.
We want you to feel like youcan ask any question that you

(01:17:46):
want to ask.
This is not a pressuresituation, but you have to go
into these things and be awarethat these things unfortunately
happen and I absolutely hatethat, because the medicine is
really so can be such abeautiful experience and so
healing for so many people, andI hate that this is even

(01:18:07):
something that we have to talkabout, but it is.

Speaker 2 (01:18:09):
I know, yeah, it's a 100%.
I hate that.
It's something that we have totalk about.
And also it's imperative thatwe do because it is a real risk
and sadly.
Imperative that we do becauseit is a real risk and sadly,
yeah.
So we have a moral imperative,I think, to bring consciousness,
and I agree with everythingyou've said, like it is really.

(01:18:29):
I made a post about this onsocial media yesterday.
Like we're in.
There's this really weirdpsychedelic deja vu thing
happening because you know we oh, you know it's because we've
been here before People likedoes anything about this feel
familiar?
And it's like knowledge ispower.
We have to educate ourselves tofeel empowered and our

(01:18:53):
sovereignty is defined notthrough like, oh well, micah
told me, or Christine or Leahtold me, or I read this in this
place.
It's like, no, we go and welike ask around and we read
around until we feel like in ourbody, I've got a sense of this.
That's sovereignty, and I thinkthese medicines are sovereign

(01:19:16):
tools, so we have to come tothem not with a hungry, bleeding
heart.
I mean, maybe our heart isbleeding, but we also need to
match that with right reverence,which is doing our sovereign
homework so that we're comingready.

Speaker 3 (01:19:33):
Well, and I just read something the other day that
responsibility is what breedsempowerment, and so we do say
that often is be your ownadvocate.
But like also, you know, we saythis too, like you know, to the
people who are like, well, Idid it in college and I had a
bad trip, and then you startasking questions and you're like

(01:19:53):
how much did you have?
Well, I don't know.
Well, who were you with?
I don't remember you know it'slike.
Well, you, that's yourresponsibility to know what
you're doing and who you'redoing it with, and how to do it
safely.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
And you know that's why you felt disempowered in
that situation you know.

Speaker 3 (01:20:10):
So I think that there is a level of responsibility to
be had individually as well,and we aren't taught that either
.
We are taught.
You don't know anything aboutthis, I do, and you need to
trust me.

Speaker 2 (01:20:23):
So yeah, it's similar to the birth scene.
Right, we'll circle back tothat Like let me tell you how
you should birth feet up, layingback.
Actually, no man, I'm going tostand up because gravity might
help here.

Speaker 1 (01:20:38):
Yeah, what's that saying?
Like, don't confuse your Googlesearch with my medical degree.
And it's and it's like well,don't confuse my body Like I
know my body best, right andlike.
I like and, but I think I'm theexpert here, yeah.
We're so conditioned to, fromsuch an early age, to not trust

(01:21:02):
our body because, it's like gohug this person.
You don't want to hug thisperson, but I'm going to make
you hug this person, Right?
Go do this, and you know youdon't want to do this, but you
have to listen to them, causethat's your teacher, that's your
coach, that's this, that's that, and it's's it's.
I even have to catch myselfwith parenting, like not doing

(01:21:26):
that with my son and letting himhave his own autonomy and
trusting himself and he, if hedoesn't feel like doing that,
not pressuring him and lettinghim, letting his body speak and
and yeah, so Totally.

Speaker 3 (01:21:42):
This was such a good talk.

Speaker 1 (01:21:43):
I know, we had, we had a whole list of questions
and.
We do that, we.
We have a whole list ofquestions, but we really have
realized that we like speakingorganically from the heart and
yes, we have ideas of what wewant to talk about, but we also
want the conversation to justflow and it be really authentic.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):
So we talked a lot about a lot of things that we've
never touched on before.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
So that's, I think, what exactly what was needed but
the problem is is like we couldtalk to you for probably two
hours I think I could do.

Speaker 3 (01:22:20):
Yeah, All right.
Well, group chat later.
You're going to help us move toMexico.

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):
And solo.

Speaker 3 (01:22:28):
MDMA yes, so we will link your your up and coming
book in our bio and the shownotes and how to find you on
Instagram and we hope all ourlisteners can connect with you
in some way, because today wasbeautiful, so thank you for
everything that you're doing andfor the conversation All right.

Speaker 2 (01:22:50):
So honored to be here .
Thank you both for sharing thespace and letting it flow and
just be beautiful.

Speaker 3 (01:22:59):
And to all of our listeners stay curious, be open
and we'll see you on the otherside.