95 | Transformative Therapy and Psychedelics with Dr. Shealy - See You On The Other Side

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, you're in the hot seat.
I know this is new.
Am I supposed to talk?

Speaker 2 (00:03):
too.
Oh boy, I don't know, I'mpretty nervous.

Speaker 1 (00:09):
It's like my favorite thing is when you're talking.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Oh, you like that.
I just read it.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Oh, it's very soothing you could do like
meditation.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Oh, I could really yeah just tune into the body and
just let the.
That really is an importantpart of what we're talking about
being able to connect with thebody.
Yeah, yeah, we'll talk aboutthat We'll get there.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Yeah, dr Sheely, everybody.

Speaker 4 (00:33):
Dr Sheely, the man, the myth, the legend.
We have talked about you a loton our podcast, just kind of
name-dropping you because I'veseen you individually.
Tony and I have come and haveseen you together, and same
thing with Leah you saved mymarriage.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
I mean you were part of it.

Speaker 4 (00:58):
I mean, you both kind of saved your own marriage.
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
But you were a tool.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yes, One of the one of the one of the best.

Speaker 1 (01:06):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
He was a modality yeah, that's the best way to
think of me okay and that's truefor whether we're talking about
psychedelics or preparationintegration whatever yeah, it's
a tool I love that, so.

Speaker 4 (01:19):
So how would you introduce yourself?

Speaker 2 (01:24):
well, um, I guess I would, you know, just start with
the credential part.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
like everybody generally does, I have a PhD in
clinical psychology, and I gotthat at the University of South.

Speaker 2 (01:34):
Florida, in Tampa, I've been doing therapy of
different varieties over these.
I don't know 35 years orsomething like that.
I don't know 35 years orsomething like that.
And what I find is that,because we're talking about this
sort of clinical orprofessional development in some

(01:56):
ways that's how I seerelationships that it starts out
one place, and so here I am ingraduate school, scared to death
of everything trying to be ableto do some decent cognitive,
behavioral whatever and thenthat just gets kind of old and
dry.
So then I move on to somethingelse.
And then I discover, likemindfulness, and that's why my
website be mindfulorg how'd youget that?

(02:19):
So what?
I got it back in the stone age,but that was enlivening for me.
That's another piece aboutrelationships, because we can
start out one place and we'reall excited about this, that or
the other thing, and then,heaven forbid, we have our 2.3
kids and now need to get excitedabout something else.
And so when they went from, uh,from that came up.
You know, my wife and I wentaway out of the country for four

(02:41):
years, did peace corps insouthern africa about two and a
half years, that type of thingyeah.
That's important too.

Speaker 4 (02:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
To be able to that transition, after having about
23 years in Tampa and developinga growing practice, and I did
the work I needed to do so Icould train other therapists and
continue my education programsand all that sort of stuff.
So it would be like a nightmarefor a financial manager person

(03:09):
to say so.
Here you are now and I wasexpanding and doing these
workshops, blah, blah, blah, andexplain to me what you're doing
now.
Well, we're getting rid ofeverything that won't fit in a
friend's closet and we're goingaway.
Do you know where you're going?
Well, we're going to start inPeru for a while, but that was,
and the fact that my wife Jordanand I worked so together, 24-7,
basically living out of asuitcase for four years, and

(03:31):
then Peace Corps was anotherthing.
So all these opportunities togrow, but that's very different.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
You see than we had back in Tampa.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
And so then we come, we, you know, finish that up,
come back to Louisville, andthen I do some more mindfulness
stuff, and then, for whateverreason, psychedelics come in
about eight years ago or sothat's an interesting path too,
I guess you could say, because16 years ago when we first left

(04:00):
the country for that four-yearsabbatical we talk about it, as
I had some very powerfulayahuasca experiences.
We actually lived with what Iwould consider a very
well-qualified shaman, alonzodel Rio, and we lived with him

(04:20):
for a couple months, and thisties into another piece I'd like
to spend a little time with.
What was it that motivated meto work on, trying to figure out
is there a way of helping,myself included?
How do I integrate theseexperiences?
What do I do with theseexperiences?

(04:44):
Because those experiences andparticularly there very powerful
, you know, just a very clear,dying experience, lying in the
floor there and that feel the,the coldness coming up my hands
and feet and say well, you'redying.
Now here's another piece.
Why were those experiencesimportant?
Because I hear, and that's sortof like am I watching it happen

(05:07):
, there's nothing I can do aboutit?
And then I hear a voice, orwhat I think of as the higher
voice, and it says well, john,you can ask for help.
And I say hell, no, I don't askfor help.
And it's like, well, maybe.
And so then I open up and then,very clearly, it's like here
are these figures standingaround me and it's not a clear

(05:27):
face or clear faces, but it wasvery clear.
The ancestors have come and sothat would be very consistent
with ayahuasca experiences andnature, mysticism and all that.
The spirits are still here,they're still with us, which I
still work with all the time,and as I work with it more, it
just seems more and more real.

(05:47):
The spirits are here.
Where else would they go, andare they limited to this thing
or that thing?
Where are they and can we tapinto them more?
But that was very, very lightword.
It was just extremelytransformative in some ways in
the sense of saying not only thepurging, which is unbelievable,

(06:09):
just you know all sorts ofpurging, all sorts of things
coming out.
The shaman there would say whenhe first saw me, he said you
know, you have a lot of otherpeople's stuff on you.
Don't know how I got that, youknow doing 25 years of therapy.
Don't know where that stuff camefrom.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Apologies, Maybe I stepped on.
You Don't know how I got that,you know doing 25 years of
therapy.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Don't know where that stuff came from.
Apologies, maybe I stepped onsomething, but that the purging
of that ayahuasca very, verypowerful, but I didn't know what
to do with it, I didn't have.
I just like it's almost likehaving a experience of a
psychedelic experience.
That's about taking a break,doing a gram or two of mushrooms

(06:52):
and going to a concert.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's just that the intention
is not to go into as dark aplace as we can go into, and so
the ayahuasca experience is ahalf a dozen or so I had during
that period.
It was definitely going intoAyahuasca is not really a

(07:16):
particularly pleasant experience.
But then come out and now howdo I think?
Do I think of myselfdifferently Now?
Do I think of myselfdifferently?
I've seen aspects of myself andrelative to relationships,
particularly too, I saw anelement of my adaptive

(07:37):
strategies Growing up in myfamily.
It was sort of like I havethree brothers, four years
between us, all each of us.
But the message there, and themessage my father sent too,
pretty much was you know, youdon't ask for help much.
That's not a part of themasculine identity or what it
means to be a man back in the50s and 60s so that was

(08:02):
important, but it didn'tregister as important at the
time.
That didn't really that didn'tstart coming together until I
was doing um, some of mypersonal favorite really is, uh,
psilocybin, which is just athey all psilocybin mushrooms
are not the same, but you know agood mushroom is is uh can be

(08:23):
very gentle, it can be very uh,it can be very opening.
It can be all sorts of whateverit needs to be Not always gentle
, but it's going to certainly be, in my experience, going to be
an easier ride than a good doseof ayahuasca.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
I think we would agree with that.
Yeah, a little bit easier, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
So you've had experiences, do you talk?

Speaker 1 (08:44):
about those we do talk about them.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, okay, folks know so, you've had experiences.
Do you talk about those?
We do talk about them.
Yeah, okay, folks know thatyou've had experience.

Speaker 4 (08:49):
No, yeah totally we are um really open books.
Yeah, that's great we usually.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Uh, so they, they also know.
Like ayahuasca for us we talkedabout, that experience was like
much harder, like that's notsomething we would go and do a
little bit of for fun right,that's like a deeper right.

Speaker 4 (09:11):
Purging my guts out right yeah, yeah yeah, um.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
So how do you come back to the real world?

Speaker 2 (09:19):
oh, boy, thank you so much for that one, because see
the real world one argument iswhen we're psychedelics one
piece of it and this is gettinginto the model why it's
important to have a model orsomething, not that it's the
model or how it works, but themodel I work with often is my

(09:42):
conditioning, is not my trueself, yeah, and so if I'm living
all my life and my thoughts andmy direction and pretty, much
everything is coming through thedistorting filter of my
conditioning.
I'm not in the real world and sowith you know, you know

(10:03):
ayahuasca, psilocybinparticularly, and bufo holy be
Jesus, bufo is another.
We can talk about that in alittle bit, but it's another
thing.
I think of it as sort of agraduation ceremony After you've
had some of these experiencesand you know what to look for
and you can relax with lettinggo of completely of any kite

(10:26):
string or anything tying youback to what you were talking
about consensual reality.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
Nobody's there.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
And it's like well.
I don't know what that is, butwhat I do with it.
I say this must be what it'slike to die.
There's just no body there's noconditioning, there's no
responsibility.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
There's no nothing.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
It's just no body, there's no conditioning, there's
no responsibility, there's nonothing, it's just except it's
everything.
Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
No, nothing, except it's everything.
Go back to this thing.
True reality To me.
Well, I mean, where were webefore?
Yeah, like these easy questions.
How old are you?
Well, I don't know.
And I said let's just go backto the Big Bang.
That's fine.
There's nothing here thatwasn't there before.
Reality you're talking about.

(11:09):
All of this is evolving overthousands and thousands and
thousands.
I have opposing thumbs.
My father, grandfather, didn'tcome up with opposing thumbs.
My favorite place is to go backto when the first reptile
started to fly.

Speaker 3 (11:20):
Let's just start there.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
That's how old I am.
We go back to this silly placeand say you know, it's actually
whenever I came out into theworld.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
The real world, okay, real world, that's correct,
except you know, you go back andyou look at this egg and sperm
thing and the capacity for thislittle tiny to construct this
and the brain, and you know, newbody every seven years, the
unbelievable miracle, it's like.

Speaker 2 (11:43):
So was this just a blank slate?
It knew nothing at all.
I mean, I wouldn't, have mythumbnail sticking out my nose.
It doesn't make any sense.
So you start to look at thetrue reality of it and some of
these psychedelic experiences inmy mind, in my experiences.
It will give you some glimpses.
Yeah, now, what do you do withthose?

(12:04):
Right, how is?
In my experiences it will giveyou some glimpses.
Now, what do you do with those?
How is that helpful?
A big part of it and again backto the model and how
psychedelics can be helpful isnow there's a whole different
perspective.
Who am I?
And you say, well, huh.
And then like is there an?
Ending to it and if we look forthese experiences particularly

(12:28):
if we kind of cue it into them.
Then it's like in the modelthat I work with, a lot is
consciousness, awareness andobject.
So they're always happening,awareness and object.
So I can see the glass.
I don't think I am the glass,think that's when I'm gonna have
a little problem, but when Ican see who I have been

(12:53):
conditioned to believe myself tobe.
I can see that what I thoughtwas I, me or mine, as a
collection of it's and objects,holy smoly man.
And it's like whoa, who am Ireally?
And then it starts settling in.
Well, I'm that which iswatching the show Awareness, and

(13:14):
then you get with some of thesefolks and this is some years
ago.
I forget the guy's name.
They have a little journalabout it.

Speaker 3 (13:26):
Concerning the evolution of consciousness.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
So not only are we developing over time, posing
thumbs, all sorts of stuff, butour consciousness, our capacity
is growing and evolving, yeah.
And of course, we have toolsthat can facilitate that now
that we didn't have even ahandful of decades ago.
I mean, there's all sorts ofpower that we can look at with

(13:50):
computers and all sorts ofdifferent things.
Of course those can take usagain.
Let's go do two grams ofmushrooms.
Let's go to the concert.
That's fine, there's nothingwrong with that, just realize
you're not going deep into thedarkness and the confusion and
the distortion of yourconditioning is that necessary?
nothing's necessary and I tellpeople.

(14:12):
They say my man have you donepowder cocaine?
I've done powder cocaine about12 times in my life and that was
close to 50 years ago and whenI was coming out and I was
saying how much I can't send mymotorcycle let's say, get rid of
my truck because I'm justconverting that into powder.
There's something that went offthat said this stuff will take
your soul, baby, and I'm sayingokay.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Never mind Never mind .

Speaker 2 (14:35):
I had a lighter experience of that in the past
few years, when I was smokingsome cannabis flower every day
for two years and I realizedthis is harming my marriage,
that this is harming my capacityto function in what you're
referring to as the real worldall sorts of ways and see, this
is not what I was smoking 50years ago.

Speaker 3 (14:57):
It's not the same.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
It's nowhere in the ballpark.
So I mean I'd go to my littleshop and I'd have a toke, and
then it's sort of like, oh,let's see there was a house here
somewhere, there was a househere somewhere, and see, that's
not what we used to smoke backthen.
It really looked more like hay,really Seeds all in it.

Speaker 3 (15:16):
It was awful.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
So what we have now is so powerful like that, and I
work with folks, and this is awhole other.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
I just keep throwing all these little sidebars as we
get to them.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
I work with folks that have a smoke amount for
them and their makeup and theirattitude toward turning toward
the discomfort versus turningaway from it, and what seems to
me is that their function tothink is distorted now.

Speaker 3 (15:47):
So I'm not talking.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
I might be talking.
This person might be 35 or 40.
I'm not talking to someone whohas a rational brain.
The brain it's like something'soff here because they, they,
they're not seeing theconsequences of what's happening
.

Speaker 3 (16:03):
Lost their job.
They're now basically live outin that shop.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
They play video games all day and they have two kids
and a wife.
What about that?

Speaker 3 (16:11):
Can't get away from it.

Speaker 2 (16:12):
So you know I have some concern about that.
Of course, the level ofintensity of whatever folks are
taking in is getting greater andgreater, and so this is my back
to how would I describe myself?
One of my favorite hobbies isbeing like an amateur
anthropologist, because I lookat this stuff.

(16:34):
I mean I might have no trainingin it, but I look at this, look
over what's happening over allthese decades that I've been
alive and what's happening nowis rather extreme.
You know, my father saw thebattery-powered radio come in
the house.
I saw the black-and-whitetelevision come in the house.
There was so much controlaround what could be shown

(16:58):
magazine-wise otherwise.
Then my first little computeryou know that had the big floppy
disk you load up virtuallyuseless, but compared to now
Right.
But the access, the averagemovie.
Now, if I just plug intosomething, the level of violence
is unbelievable, absolutelyunbelievable.
And people are so casual theyjust kill people and it's like

(17:20):
bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow,and so that.
And then, of course, there'sthe representation of women and
sexuality and the distortion ofthat and what seems to me to be
the loss of the sense ofsacredness.
And back to couples again.

(17:44):
We've lost the sacredness andthere's been, particularly with
adolescents, at this point thatthey're, I mean, I, I remember,
honestly, I must have been 14years old and we had, like, I
found like a playboy somewhereand I could actually see the
pubic hair looking sideways onthis woman and I'm thinking,
holy smokes, they're justshowing anything now.
So that's where it was, that'swhere it was.

(18:06):
And then Hustler comes in andHustler brings more open, all
this stuff.
But compare it to now with theaverage 8-year-old can access
for free, dial it up, man, whatdo you want to see?
And then women being abused andloving and all this sort of
stuff.
So see, it's not unknown thatthere's power in the media.

(18:30):
I mean, why are we spending$1,000 million, at least in a
presidential election?

Speaker 3 (18:36):
It's not about educating people it doesn't seem
to be.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
It seems to be more like the porn, like the violence
.
Get it up so that the dopaminerush is noticeable.
So if we take the dopamine rushand we're resting state about
right here somewhere, thenyou've got to give it a pretty
big shot here, or I'm not goingto notice it.
Yeah, and if you dull me down,like what about reading a book?

(19:01):
Reading a book I've heard thatterm before.
I don't know what that's about,but of course it, reading a
book, impacts the brain in avery different way.
You read, you read a few words,the brain, the brain takes the
words, it creates an image andit also it has to follow.
It's creating the storyline orit's following the storyline

(19:24):
that's not happening.
Bam, kabam, kabam, kabam, kabam, kabam, uh-uh, go back, it's
got to be 50 years Close to it.
Gerrymander four arguments forthe elimination of television.
What does television do?
You couldn't show a marriedcouple in bed together.
We're not talking about thecontent, just the bam, bam bam.
It's totally unnatural.
We can lose our capacity forcritical thought.

(19:47):
Now you just put that on thewall somewhere, lose capacity
for critical thought, and thenyou kind of like say, well man,
so people can be shaped intodoing all sorts of weird stuff.
Huh, Beyond the just, we'regoing to sell this beer or this,
whatever, and make you feelinadequate.
You can buy this thing or thatthing millions and millions of

(20:08):
dollars in a Super Bowl game.
I mean the art that goes intothese advertisements.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
See, they're not about saying you're perfectly
fine and complete as you are.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
Nobody's going to say that.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
Nobody's going to say that.
I'll say that.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
You'll say that I sure will.
We'll say that.
You'll say that I sure will.

Speaker 3 (20:26):
We'll say it right here, we'll say it right yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:30):
Even my stepdaughters .
They've been talking to meabout their 19 and 22 dating and
how hard it is to date.
Because they feel like, andit's it's probably you know both
men and women, but a lot of thelike and it's it's probably you
know both men and women, but alot of the the men that they
talk to it's like all right, yougot one thing wrong with you or
one thing I don't like.

(20:50):
I'm not going to address itonto the next, onto the next,
onto the next.
And so they find it very righthere.
Yeah, they find it very hard tolike, be in a relationship, to
like and connect with somebody,because it's like you know, one
thing goes wrong.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
You're out, new, new girls in and and yeah, I I feel
for for this generation that's abeautiful opening, you see,
because now you're seeing anadult woman yeah uh and and
basically, uh, what she, what Iwould say she's talking about or
they're talking about isthey're talking about the

(21:27):
current conditioning of theculture that is saying you
should look this way, and sothey're not there.
Even as an adult woman, they'renot being motivated to discover
their authentic, true self.
They're motivated to to make up, color it up, heal it up, do

(21:49):
whatever you got to do becausethat man over there is geared up
to look for a certain thing.
Of course, the man over there,he didn't know who he is either.
Yeah, so what?
One thing we're talking aboutis what?
What I do a lot of work with,and that would be the midlife
opportunity.
A lot of my folks come in,they're 45, 50 years old and
they say I don't know who I am.
I said, said bingo, that'swonderful.
And so see if they go into thewrong place, like to their

(22:13):
primary caregiver, for example,and they say I'm depressed, I'm
anxious.
They say, oh, we can fix thatbaby.
And here's some benzos.
Holy moly, you really don'twant to do benzos.
It's just so horribly difficult.
Some folks get off those things.
But antidepressants too,because, see, the person comes
in and they're confused in someway and they're sad in some way.

(22:33):
And what I say is and I stealthis from David Snarch I guess
he died a few years ago but hewould work with couples and
they'd come in like havingintense.
He'd probably not work for fouror five days, just intense
stuff.
And his point was nothing isbroken here.

Speaker 3 (22:50):
You folks are waking up.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Nothing is broken because you're anxious and
depressed.
You have moved through decadesof your life and now, like
you're 20, 22 years old andyou're about to define,
particularly if you go after the2.3 kids pretty early, which
you need to do if you're a womanfor sure, then you're on a path
now and you don't know who youare.

(23:13):
And the culture is againgetting more and more extreme,
more and more resistant, lessand less interested in actual,
authentic reality.
Who am I really?
And then they wait untilthey're 45 or whatever.
Oh, we're divorcing, well,whatever.
And people say, oh God, whatwent wrong?
And I'm saying, well, what wentwrong happened when they were
19, 20, 25, 26, because therehasn't been a sufficient

(23:35):
awakening, somebody hadn'tshaken them up, somebody hadn't
given them a good five grams ofpsilocybin with a good
preparation, good integration,and saying wow, I feel different
, you are different, I'm seeingthe world from a different
perspective.
Well, bingo, that's right.
Your perspective before cameout of your family of origin
which said I don't know whereyou're going to go.

(23:56):
Find a family that's not goingto say this is okay, this isn't.
This is okay, this isn't.
We don't do music here, wedon't tell jokes here, you can't
say this, you can't do this,you can't blah, blah, blah, blah
.
So we're restricted, of course,back to the couples again.
Oftentimes, since we arerestricted in our sense of
safety, sense of attunement,sense of being treated special,

(24:18):
sense of being able to work withour emotions, somebody has
their back.
We find a complement to that.
We find what we don't have thisperson appears to have and what
they don't have you appear tohave.
So now we've got one and oneequals one quarter.
So we come together and that'sokay if you understand what
you're doing Right now.
It's like going to the concert.
Let's take two grams ofmushrooms, go to the concert,

(24:39):
that's fine.
But understand what you'redoing now.
You're kind of answering needsthat really fit into a
developmental model.
They're not something you'regoing to go fix right away, and
heaven forbid that other personcan't fix them for you.
Back to relationships again.
So am I saying that it would begreat to be in a relationship

(25:01):
where there's a lot of growthand a lot of quote-unquote
conflict?
Absolutely, because otherwisewe're not going to be growing
into our true, actual self,you're not challenged.
That's right, you're notchallenged.
And now see it's so difficultto get two people in the same

(25:22):
page to understand things like,like and they'll say things like
um, so I'm just telling you,let's go to your model.
you talk a lot about beingtriggered and she did this and I
went off and I was eight,actually like an eight-year-old,
and blah, blah, blah and allthat.
I don't like that you're tryingto say is this supposed to be
good for me, or something I'mgonna say well, yes, it is, it's

(25:44):
not only good for me, orsomething I'm going to say, well
, yes, it is, it's not only goodfor you.
I don't know what else is goingto work.
And if you have a relationship,committed relationship, and you
trust each other over time, youknow, go, do whatever
experiences you need in order totest each other out, if you
have those things and if youhave a language around it you

(26:06):
can say wow, I set my glass downhard or something, or I do
whatever I do and see, insteadof me rolling back into my
eight-year-old self, which isoften what happens, because
that's the adaptive strategieskicking up, and I yell and
whatever.
I kind of just like wow.
And she's like, oh, okay.
And she says what's up honey?

Speaker 3 (26:27):
Nothing honey, it's just of course you do it enough.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
She just say, well, he's off zoning out.
Again I said, well, butactually it's not zoning out,
it's zoning in, zoning in to see, because the body's reaction to
that trigger is really what thepanic is about.
An eight-year-old says we've gotto fix this, Don't need to fix
that.
That's where being able to scanthe body, let that ripple go,

(26:52):
come back and say, wow, I wonderwhy that was so hard.
Then, of course, they've openedup a whole channel of
investigation, curiosity,whatever.
And it might come to you inyour dreams journaling.
It might come to you as youdreams journaling may come to
you right down the road.
You say, wow, that's what myviolent drunk dad used to do.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
He would come in, he'd slam whatever and something
about the day, that night orwhatever, when my loving husband
did that.
I wanted to kill somebody andit's like, but I could feel it,
I could see there's somethingthat's not real, that's not
relevant, that is hijacking me.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
And then it's like okay.
I don't want to be hijacked.

Speaker 3 (27:32):
And you say well, honey, thanks for slamming the
cup down and he says what areyou?
Talking about.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
I said well, just clearing things out, and you do
that for each other.
See, it opens up.
It opens up amazing.
I just don't know of any other.
I mean psychotherapy, blah blah, all this stuff.
But man, if you want asituation for uh healing these

(27:59):
types of traumas, you know,developmental traumas, where
we've grown up with thesetraumas and we've had more and
more repeated experiences offeeling worthless and inadequate
and whatever else we are.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
Man, that committed relationship is the place.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
I want to take it back to these like triggers.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
Okay, I mean we don't have to live there for a little
bit.
Oh, I love it.

Speaker 2 (28:20):
Let's live there.
We don't have to live there fora little bit.
Oh, I love it, let's live there.

Speaker 1 (28:24):
This is interesting because I remember it starts
with awareness right, and Ithink when my husband and I
first started seeing you, it waswild because he was also newly
sober.
Our relationship was so muchharder when we started to become
aware.
For the first half of it wewere just kind of coasting, but

(28:50):
both of us unhappy, but wedidn't fight that much.
And then, like once we broughtthis awareness up and we were
both seeing things, like it wasalmost, I mean, I had to lock
him down.
I mean he wanted to walk awaybecause he was like I've never
fought this much with you andI'm like but we're working

(29:10):
through things Like they're nothappening again and again and
again and again.
It's like one big fight andthen a resolution happens and
then a repair happens, and thenthat is a lesson that we have
learned, that we never learnedbefore.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
And you likely trust each other in a different way
than you did before.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:33):
Because you've gone through this and so that gets
easier every time that's right.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah, and it's like the duration of whatever these
blowups would be used to be like.
We would be in this for weeksand then it'd be like one week
and then it'd be like a few daysand then now it's like, oh,
we're, we're repairing in anhour.
What, what you're gonnaapologize to me within 30
minutes that's wild but, I alsoremember like trying to I

(30:04):
wouldn't say teach him, but butlike I would, I would point
things out Like that'striggering, because this, this,
this Sure, it used to bother himLike you're pointing out all
these things I'm doing wrong.
So you're activating one of histriggers yes, okay, that that,
yes, he hated it.
Sure, how would you feel if Ipointed out everything you did

(30:26):
wrong and I'm like well, if I'mhurting you, I'd want you to
tell me so I can be aware of itand not do it like try to make a
conscious effort not to do it.
And so he did this one time,like it.
You know, we're taught, we'rearguing, and then later he comes
back and he's like I don't likethat because that's what my mom

(30:47):
used to do to me.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
That's it, and I'm like there, it is there it is
that's right.

Speaker 1 (30:51):
You've never said that to me before.

Speaker 2 (30:54):
And now.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
I'm aware of it.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Right and see that can shape us into not doing
Right or it can shape us intosaying wow.
So basically what was triggeredwas my eight-year-old little
boy, and oftentimes we can sayI'm an eight-year-old little
girl, right.
And we're squabbling.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Right, because I didn't know that I was doing
anything either.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
That's right, yes, but see that, to me, is a sign
of a healthy relationship.
But see that to me is a sign ofa healthy relationship is that
we move into this place awayfrom this sort of what they used
to say about traditionalpsychotherapy is about helping
people be less miserable intheir miserable life.

(31:39):
Instead, that's not what we'retalking about here.
We're talking about movingthrough the discomfort in order
to be truly who we are and to betruly happy, you know.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Happy, feel with joy Be able to drink water when your
throat clogs up.

Speaker 4 (31:54):
At peace Now.
All of that sounds veryfamiliar.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
Just everything Leah's talking about, because it
is when Tony and I firststarted dating.
I went from being a 20-someyear old with no kids to then
what I felt like was locked downwith two teenage stepdaughters
and you know not greatco-parenting situation.

(32:25):
And then I was in it and I felthonestly, kind of stuck and I'm
like what the heck?
You know what am I doing?
And it got.
It was to a point where if weweren't fighting, it felt weird
because we like there was justso much happening.

(32:46):
But it's almost like the morewe just continue to work through
it and working with you and andactually just like talking
things through, because I wassomebody who I would get
incredibly triggered.
And once I got triggered, thatwas like the eight-year-old
little girl who's like you can'ttrust anybody.
You had an absent father and anemotionally neglectful mother,

(33:09):
so like it's you, you don't haveanyone.
Or now it's like we've reallydone the work where I feel safe
with him.
So even if I am triggered, Ican now say like okay, and we
can talk through it.
But it took a long time, ohyeah, and it's still a lot of
work.
Oh, sure it is, yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
But what you said there about I feel safe.
Now see one of those fiveelements of attachment safety, I
think safety sort of comes backto all of them.
Yeah, but once you felt safe,then the little girl feels safe,
and I think of that, as youknow reparenting, yeah, and.
And so they're the mother in you.
Addressing your inner child,you might say well, it's able to
say notice what's going on,he's not hitting, he's not

(33:49):
throwing things, he's notthreatening you, but and you're
scared, it's okay to be scared.
And so here's where the model,a model where we can understand
and say what's happening, mylittle girl is feeling
threatened.
And so the answer to that,fundamentally, down the road
somewhere, is it's not him Alittle sidebar about

(34:10):
psychedelics it's not him, it'sthe experience of being cared
for since before the beginningof time.
We don't have to go back thatfar, but we go back and realize
again, if you look at it,ayahuasca, experience, a good
five grams of psilocybinexperience.
If we look at it and say, do Ifeel is there, and that this is,

(34:31):
uh, this notion from the ideaof a mystical experience, and so
there, there's no fear here,there's no urgency, here,
there's really no hope, nothingneeds to change.
And so if you really settleinto it and you say, wow, this
is, this is interesting, and seewhat, I would say is now

(34:53):
this is real.
This is real, undisturbed byall of this conditioning.
And so if we, that's like sortof the goal of integration.
A goal of integration is thatthe norm that used to be going
through the eight-year-old ithas to go through.
There's nothing broken that itgoes through that.

(35:14):
We learn that in order tosurvive.
We learn that in order to notbe abandoned because we're
abandoned as little people,we're going to die.
We're very, very fragilespecies here.
So we've got to get it out ofour head that something's broken
.
It's not, we're just using atool that we don't need anymore.
And so we step out of that.
And again it becomes where's myhigher self, where's my higher

(35:37):
parenting?
Where's my mother, my father?
That's all right here, but it'stied to again.
A mystical experience I findwhen this falls away and my eyes
are clear and I can see.
I can see there's nothing wronghere.

Speaker 3 (35:50):
I don't need to defend anything.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
It's all wonderful and again that see.
I don't want to send themessage that you do the
psilocybin experience orayahuasca experience?
I mean MDMA is anotherexperience which has a lot of
application but MDMA, it's justyou know I don't talk about it

(36:12):
because I don't know about it.

Speaker 4 (36:14):
It's a different and I've had experiences with it.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
Yeah, and I think it can be helpful in opening
couples up if they use itappropriately and to make sure
they test it before they take it, because some people are dying
because it's got fentanyl in it.
Now there are stories of thatactually happening, with flour
too.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Some things are coming back.

Speaker 2 (36:38):
The person got in their trunk, they got whatever
and they got fentanyl too.
Some things are coming back.
The person got in their trunk,they got whatever and they got
fentanyl too, and fentanyl.
So you really need to knowwhere you're getting your stuff.
But anyway, to come to thisplace where the comfort with
discomfort and that learningthat See.
I think that there's all sortsof examples of that.

Speaker 4 (37:04):
If we do yoga, if we go to school, if we get married,
there are all sorts of movinginto discomforts oh yeah, with
me, because I felt like I wasthe one who was always
instigating the fights, becausethere were things that were like
okay, you're driving me insane.
But, I don't feel that wayanymore, because we've really
accomplished a lot by learninghow to fight with each other,

(37:27):
learning how to communicate witheach other and learning that a
lot of the things that we'refighting about now it's stems
way, way, way deeper, andlearning those things about each
other have been veryenlightening.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
I think a lot of people think the goal in a
relationship is to find someoneyou don't fight with.
I was going to say that and Ithink that's so.
I don't even know what to.
That's basic.

Speaker 4 (37:54):
That's so.
I don't even know what tothat's basic.
Well and I know, I know, I knowa teenager who her parents got
divorced and she would be likeyou guys, didn't ever fight and
she was correct.
But that was kind of.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
If we're not fighting the problem, you should be
worried.
Yeah, because I reached a pointin our relationship where I
stopped fighting because I waslike he's not hearing me, I'm
done, I'm checked out.
I reached this very apatheticstate and he thought things were
great.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
Isn't that?

Speaker 3 (38:29):
great.
But what we see when you?

Speaker 2 (38:32):
say he it's another thing I work with like this
little piece of neurolinguisticprogramming.
When you say he, what you'rereally describing there is his
conditioning yeah, that's nothim.
Back to what's real again.
So basically, his little boy isbeing activated and he's
responding from the little boy.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
That's all.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
And then he moves through into an authentic
experience and he does that likewhat I'll do piece at a time.

Speaker 3 (38:57):
He has a realization.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
He says wow, I just realized.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
I had an insight.
I didn't sit down andrationally, you know, four plus
four is eight.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
It was an insight that said that's what my mother
used to do, and one of the termsthat I use so much about that
is don't take it personally,because it's not.
Yeah, and then so you're sayinglike you might see a six or
eight-year-old little boy andhe's having a fit you can go in,
you can approach him like he'san adult and say but we usually

(39:29):
don't.

Speaker 3 (39:30):
We usually say, so he's activated in some way.
Let me see if I can help himfeel safe.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
Help him know somebody's treating him as a
special person.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
All these same attachment issues it's there.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
But those experiences , see of sort of reparenting
each other.

Speaker 3 (39:47):
It's sort of what we do.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
And see, I'm not talking about enabling, I'm not
talking about what's that otherterm, Whatever it is codependent
I'm talking about we bothunderstand, we have a model of
what's going on and we should beable to.
It's sort of a heroic challengein some ways to be able to say

(40:10):
things like how old do you feelnow?

Speaker 1 (40:14):
That's what we say a lot.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
And the partner.

Speaker 4 (40:18):
Who did we learn that from things?

Speaker 2 (40:19):
like how old are you feeling now?
That's what we say a lot, andthe partner who did we learn
that from?
We don't know, but you comeback and see it requires that
you're both able to pause for aminute and say, oh, about eight
years old.
Okay, fine, say anything youwant.
Say anything you want, doanything you want.
I'm here for you, baby.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
Can I give an example of this?
Absolutely Because this was aconcept that took Jason a very
long time to get.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
It took Jason's adaptive strategy.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
There, you go His conditioning.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
And see that could be very helpful.
I appreciate that there's somenotion of understanding
masculine egos.
What I would encourage you todo is understand that's not the
whole picture.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
I like that.
I also feel like I'm throwinghim under the bus a lot.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
But I want you to know like.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
I had to learn all this too, and coming to see you
one time.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
You know you asked me how does that make you?

Speaker 1 (41:18):
feel and I'm like, I don't know, maybe like six, six
years old, and our daughter wasabout five at the time and and

(41:49):
you asked him how he deals withher when she does the same thing
, and he's like well, that'sdifferent and you're like, but
it's not.
So I remember, like on the wayhome, I'm like, you got to treat
me like I'm five and he's like,but you're not.
And I'm like, in that moment Iam, and what I need from you is
what you give to our daughter.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yes, that's right.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
And now it's crazy to think of.
I don't have to like spell itout like that anymore, because I
do feel we do that for eachother, like if he's activated.
I I've said this to you beforeLike I sometimes feel, like I'm
like, oh my God, I feel like I'myelling at a child.
That's right, I don't like that.
Well, I got to step back aminute.

(42:27):
He's got to feel safe andthat's what's happening.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
I'm yelling at a child, yeah, and the child has
been beaten or conditioned inone way or the other that he
says I've got to stand up formyself.
Yeah, you can't tell me I'mworthless.
You can't tell me I can't dothis, whatever.
So you got the eight-year-oldsaying, yeah, why don't you make
me do that, baby?

(42:51):
Come on, let's see you do thatone.
All right, and you don't makeme.
That's not it, but but see it'sI think it's really important
to understand.
We're talking about a process,so we're not talking about
settling to it.
Now I've got twoeight-year-olds living in a
house.
That's not it, but it's justwhat you're describing and it's
going to be difficult in thebeginning.
I don't have I don't know whatto do with it, it's just got to
be difficult it's, it's a it's along process yeah I.

(43:15):
I don't know if it'll ever endI don't know if it ever ends.

Speaker 3 (43:17):
I mean, I'd like to say well where are you now?

Speaker 2 (43:19):
oh, I fixed all that.
I've never.
My wife is totally incapable oftriggering me let's get her on
here.
Let's get her here exactlyright, it says when's the last
time you were triggered.
Oh, let's see what time is itthis morning, this one, what?
It?
It like you're saying about, orsaid a minute ago about, these
are two weeks, is it?
One week is one day and nowit's just watch it like whoa.

Speaker 3 (43:41):
Okay, write that down , whoa I like that, yeah, but I
mean, that's like you know, agood, solid 20 years of pretty
dedicated meditation practice.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
When you know 10 day, 20 day, 30 day meditation
practice.
You, you know 10-day, 20-day,30-day meditation practice, you
know into the place of sayingnotice what's going on no
conversation, no eye contact.

Speaker 3 (44:00):
Get up at 4.30, blah, blah, blah.
Now what's happening?
What's happening, what'shappening.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
And you sit there and you're just all this stuff
comes.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
You say, well, there's this sort of this is in
me somewhere it's got to be inyou, it's always in you.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
It heals, though, see .

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Yeah, and then we learn about ourselves, we learn
about our conditioning, and wecan understand things, my
conditioning, when I look at itnow, which I don't know when but
it's fairly recent that thiscame on certainly in the past 10
years and I think I would sayit was facilitated by some
serious psychedelic experiences.

(44:40):
Yeah, but see I mentionedearlier, I'm the youngest of
four boys, so by the time I'msix years old, somebody
everybody went to ClemsonUniversity down the road where
we lived.
And so by the time I'm sixyears old, somebody is in
college, so they're havingconversations, and then he

(45:01):
leaves the next person's incollege and the next person's in
college.
So I am fundamentally thestupidest person at the table
who cannot interact at thatlevel at all.
So the conditioning around thatwas really I honestly could not
imagine myself ever owning ahome or ever going to college.

(45:24):
And then I went down.
I was involved with a unionthere.
I worked at a telephone companyfor 12 years before I was a
cable repairman outside climbingtelephone poles, all that good
stuff, Because some of thatmatched with my father.
He was an outside person.
He didn't do that telephoneclimbing pole stuff.
And I'm in a training and RudyCraig is up there and he says,

(45:44):
okay, just take out a piece ofpaper, no one will see.
But you Write on there whereyou want to be in 10 years and
I'm saying, no, it's your job.
And I'm thinking I could notwrite that down in a piece of
paper.

Speaker 3 (45:55):
And so that came up and I said I'm not quite right
about this.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
So after that week of training there, whatever I said
, well, I'll go to schoolpart-time and get my undergrad
degree in about eight years, asit turned out, in 10 years.
I colleges.
And see, some of that was arealization of saying, wait a
minute, and as soon as I wentinto the little junior college
to take my remedial math class,I could start taking real

(46:19):
classes.
See, it was like a whole worldopened up.
And then I'm an older student.
I'm 30 at the time, and so theteachers, professors probably
teachers at that place respondedvery well, and so there's the
sense of safety, the sense ofattunement, the sense of being
treated special.
All these things were rightthere.

(46:39):
And so then the school.
Just, I remember there's alibrary probably about as big as
this room at that littlecollege place.
And I walked in there and Isaid holy smokes man, and I grew
up around books all the time.

Speaker 3 (46:51):
But there was something about that experience.
See, it's interesting to me togo back and say what changed
there?

Speaker 2 (47:00):
And I said this whole section is about whatever it's
about.
And of course at a realuniversity you wouldn't say this
whole floor is about this.
And then undergrad was there,essentially finished two years,
three years into 24 credits asemester.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
All this sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Because I could and because I was motivated and
because I was brought alive inthat transition.
So if we're not brought alivein these transitions there's, I
don't know how much time we'regoing to spend there, because
that was a pretty hard road.
Then I showed up in graduateschool and looked around the
table with the 12 of us there, Ithink and I realized I am not

(47:38):
the brightest bulb on the tree,but it's like whoa, this is
gonna be something else.
so there's pretty focus in thereand you know whatever it was
but then come out of that thefour years in the work for my
major professor in.
Hmo sweatshop, All of thosethings I've seen.
But those experiences offinding what brings us alive is

(48:02):
so important.
A lot of people find that withtheir children, they really can.
It's such a miracle to have achild.
It really is, but then ofcourse I mean being a man, my
wife at the time she said thatwas a pretty difficult time.

Speaker 3 (48:17):
I was kind of sitting out there, you know trying to
go find a place to smoke acigarette, which I did for about
two years, you know.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
But she's in there having birth and all this kind
of stuff, but it's a miracle andthe birth of my daughter when I
was almost 19 saved my life.
I have no doubt about that.
Aw, I was almost 19.
Saved my life, I have no doubtabout that Aw.
I was doing some horriblethings.
It was crazy.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
It was crazy, it was you know going to Atlanta buying
a pound of trash weed for about$100.
Crazy stuff.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
That good weed.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
That good weed.
That was good weed back thenright, but it's that seed.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
When I look back at that, I'm saying I'm trying to
find a place, I'm trying to findan identity that I didn't have
in my family All the spaces aretaken up, so I'm going to be the
rebel.
I think I did a pretty good Bjob of being a rebel.
See, it wasn't about me at all.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
And then I look back, like even today right over here
, I thought about Mr Prather.

Speaker 2 (49:18):
Mr Prather was someone who lived next to where.

Speaker 3 (49:20):
I believe were my grandparents.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
at the time I was probably five or six years old
and he would take us some of uswith him.
He went around into what wewould call back then, the
African-American or blackneighborhoods.
And I remember asking him whatdo they like to be called?

Speaker 3 (49:38):
And he said they don't like to be called anything
.
And say I feel that right now.

Speaker 2 (49:43):
I was a five-year-old little boy, and so we can go
back and revisit some of thesepowerful moments that we've had
in our life.
I think the advantage of thatis that we're sort of
strengthening our identity whoam I and how did I get to be
here?

Speaker 3 (50:03):
And some of these conditionings are really
negative and harmful.
And some of them are verypositive and helpful.
And how did that?

Speaker 2 (50:12):
shape me Attitude toward race, going to Peace
Corps and going and being theonly white people in the
neighborhood and on the bus.

Speaker 3 (50:20):
Was that it Did, mr Prather plant a seed Was there a
seed planted when I was 18 anddid.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
LSD.
Where are the seeds?
Where are the helpful seeds?
Because I don.
I don't want to encourage andsupport the unhealthy, but
there's a lot of positive stuffback there.
Drink water on that one, huh.

Speaker 1 (50:45):
Raise a glass to that .

Speaker 4 (50:48):
Yeah, no, my stepdaughter has recently moved
in with us and over like thelast four or five weeks, we've
been having just a lot ofconversations about um repressed
memories that she has had, andthese conversations have been

(51:08):
incredibly hard, but I see themas a really good thing because
there has been an increasinglevel of awareness and so there
are things that she'll say andshe'll be like oh, you know,
that happened and um, oh gosh, Irealized I do that too and I
don't really like that aboutmyself.
And oh, you know, the reasonwhy I do this and this and this

(51:29):
is because I got pressured to dothis, this and this, but it's
not really.
It's not really me.
And and but I'm I love itbecause I never had I never had
that, those conversations withanyone at that age.
So I do think it's a good thing, cause I'm like that's awesome,
like I was having thoseconversations at 30, right.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
You know, and I was doing.

Speaker 4 (51:54):
I was like, oh my gosh, I feel like I'm losing it
and I'm, you know, don't knowwhat to do.
Mushrooms definitely saved mylife, but like she, I feel like
she's, in ways she's getting ahead start.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
Oh, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (52:06):
Because she has that.

Speaker 2 (52:09):
No doubt.
See.
That's it Back to my amateuranthropology person.
See, like I mean my father grewup in a multi-generational
household and see what happensthere.
it's like what we see inSwaziland when we're in Peace
Corps it's like, oh, look, lookat that child with the mother
and you say, well, why would youthink that's her mother?
Well, she's nursing Notnecessarily her mother.

(52:31):
That could be her sister oraunt, a visitor from across the
street, but that baby is notgoing to be a toddler, it's not
going to be far away fromsomebody that's going to pick
him or her up and hug her,nourish her and support her.

Speaker 3 (52:45):
It's all about that.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
And now you see again a handful of decades, we moved
to a place where the normal forAmericans at least the norm is
to live in bubbles.
So I don't have like I had.
I don't have a Mr Prather nextdoor, I don't have my Dande, who
is my Dande, and Bomba that'sofficial names for my
grandparents that I grew up with.

(53:08):
I don't have that, see, and soI, you know, grew up like a lot
of people do.
My parents are burning out,frustrated, raising teenagers,
all this sort of stuff, so theydon't have opportunity for that,
and I didn't have a constantgrandparent figure.
But in the quote-unquote olddays and this is true even now

(53:30):
in some cultures.
I noticed some of the folks fromfrom southeast asia come and,
and it's norm, the month thegrandparents will be living in
the house they are taking careof the child, because somebody
says these people are having ababy.
As they ain't really kind oftuned in to be able to raise
babies so much, so we'll helpthem with that.
Yeah, now it's like a miraclethat happens.

(53:52):
Yeah, in some places ofcourse've got other cultures
that has a lot of focus on thechildren and just to talk about
the shift in cultures, I was inAtlanta Airport actually Monday
and Atlanta is a home of adifferent culture and so in the
airport I wish it's Melonic.

(54:16):
I'm trying to get the rightword.
There's a better word thanblack or melanin melanin melanin
.
I think that's it.
They're there, but we're therethey have like a.
This, honestly, is the bestmeal I've ever had in a
restaurant.
It's a kebab.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
Anyway, it's a nice place.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
And so I'm watching these folks interact and they're
joking all the time and they'rekind of egging each other on
all the time and they are sopresent with each other.
They're present when they comeup.
They come up and they'reconnected and she says, hey,
baby, what do you need Something?
Like she said, and there's justa sense of warmth there and a

(54:59):
sense of community in thatrestaurant and in the airport
period.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Because if you're there, you're going to be
interacting with this is whoyou're going to be interacting
with.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
This is the culture you're in, and it was just a joy
to be interacting with.
This is the culture you're innow and it was just a joy to
watch all that.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
Yeah, because some of what I see in America
particularly lately is folks areyoung people, particularly
young people being 18, 20,whatever they are they're like
zombies.
They really are like zombies,and I try to interact with them
and they're kind of like yeahokay, well, it's like man you
need to sober up man.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
But they're not Right , because they haven't learned
somehow.
What I would assume is theyhaven't experienced the reward
of being their genuine, true,concerned self and exchanging
that connection with someoneelse.
And then I think about talkingabout relationships.
Where are they going to go?

Speaker 4 (55:57):
That's what I worry about, and you were talking
about the Peace Corps.
My mom was in the Peace Corpsas well.
That's how I came into thisworld.
Oh, that's great.
But I got separated from myMarshallese side of the family
and it was the.
Grandma lives with you, grandpalives with you, cousins aunts

(56:19):
uncles.

Speaker 1 (56:20):
The village.
You have a village.

Speaker 3 (56:21):
You have a village.

Speaker 4 (56:22):
Now it's gotten more Americanized and so they've
strayed away from their ownculture.
But in a lot of my psilocybinjourneys, those ancestors show
up and tell me to not do thethings that I'm I'm doing and to
work on being more, and allthat.

(56:44):
But what I was going to say,what I was going to say, is it's
really hard now having kidsbecause I don't, I don't have
any help.
It's you know, and so part ofof it was hard to work, because
I'm like how are you supposed towork 40 hours a week and own a
business and then also show upfor, you know, you have three

(57:04):
kids, I have three kids.
Like it's impossible, and so weboth have made the decision to
step away so then we can bepresent with our families and be
for our kids what we never gotto have.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
Absolutely.
That's beautiful, but see thatnorm in America changed.
See, when I grew up, my normwas, honestly, I don't know what
I was.
I must have been in my 30sbefore I ever came home.
I've had a key to a house.
We don't lock the house and soand so, man, my mother is always

(57:37):
there.
She's always there.
And then I go riding off mybicycle, on my bicycle ride down
the little roads out here.
If I fall off and hurt myself,I'm going to just walk to the
door that's there somewhere andthe woman's going to say do
whatever she needs to do to getme help.
You know if I need help,whatever.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
So and my mother knows that.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
See we've been conditioned so much.
Now, one thing about COVID forus was a surprise.
We have kids living in ourneighborhood we'd never seen
before.

Speaker 3 (58:07):
Oh my gosh, and it's like holy smokes man.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
They're out riding bicycles.
Honey, do you know where thesekids are?
Well, I think that's like athird house up.
Why I said honey, do you knowwhere these kids are?
Well, I think that's like athird house up.
Why don't we see them?
They don't play.
Why aren't they playing?
They're not playing now.
They're not playing now.
And it's like how do you learn?
And now we're back to nature.
Mysticism like ayahuasca isgrounded in.
How can we be so separated fromnature and expect that?

Speaker 3 (58:30):
to not have some harm to us.
It's amazing.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
Yeah, what you said about the piece of you got the
message of what you need to dois change, so I'm down.
This is my two-year experience.
What I'll say was it was veryhelpful for about six months and
then I had about 18 months thatI was addicted to cannabis
flower.
So I'm down doing an ayahuascaexperience and just plain as day

(58:58):
, man, and that language ofayahuasca, mother ayahuasca,
what I would say, is my newmother.
My mother says John, you got tostop smoking dope.
And I said that's what we usedto call it back in the 60s.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
And it wasn't like.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
I'm saying, oh, you do it.
It's like that's right.
And so I came home and I had acollection like people have wine
collections and I take out mycollection of flour and my pipes
and all the other stuff and Itake it over and give it away.
It's like I'm not going tothrow it away.
I think it has potential, too,of being a sacred healing

(59:33):
medicine.
It's just, you've got to becareful with it, is all I'd say
about it.
I don't think you're going tohave to worry about that with
ayahuasca and I don't thinkyou're going to get to where you
got to.
Microdosing is wonderfulMicrodosing.
Let's talk about this littlesidebar here, microdosing for me
, I've just had some folks thathave been on antidepressants

(59:54):
since God was a small girl andthey start microdosing and the
antidepressants, thepharmaceuticals, fall away and
they don't need to come back.
And I'm saying somebody needsto know this.
You need to know you can dolike 0.1, 0.2 grams three or
four days a week and holy smokesman.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
They talk about a good thing to do.
We have a lot of people who arelike I've been on
antidepressants for 20 years andI'm scared to come off and lots
of.
I mean lots of people are likethey don't realize they're
addicted, but they're definitelylike dependent on it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
And they realize that they're like oh, I don't, I
could.

Speaker 4 (01:00:32):
I could live life without it well, and here's
what's crazy is, so many peopleare dependent on it, like that's
just our norm is to likepharmaceuticals to take a take a
pill for something and I'm like, I feel like we're more
depressed, more disconnectedthan ever before.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
So if they're so great, like why are we so?

Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
miserable just as a society.
You.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
You were talking earlier about all the stuff on
TV.
I was reading this article afew days ago that was talking
about how women now will watchthese serial killer shows to
calm down and to fall asleep andit's like I can't anymore.
And I used to be that.

(01:01:14):
I used to listen, that, I usedto like listen to like the
murder podcast and like now Irealize like my tolerance for
that, my capacity to like sitwith that is so much smaller,
because now I'm like that givesme the ick that like that's
something I used to listen to tocalm down.
That's backwards calm down.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
That's backwards.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
But we're so disconnected from what feels
good and moving towards thingsthat feel good and moving
towards things that feel likechaos and dark and scary, and
that shouldn't be normal, but itseems like it's getting more
and more normal.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Where somebody right now does that.
It's like you know so you'rewatching stuff that's feeding
your fears.
Yeah, and it's all right there,and it's not like you're
reading a story or whateverYou're seeing, images and the
brain takes those images andit's very difficult for the
brain to say is this real or not?

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
especially with the big screen and the high
definition.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
And you wonder why you're anxious all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
That's right, exactly .

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
So this is a random side note.
There is one time where Tonyand I we were watching Stranger
Things, okay, and have you seenthat?
Yeah, okay, I think her name isMax.
Yeah, she has a really abusivebrother, and it was so like I

(01:02:38):
don't do scary movies, I hatescary movies, but I didn't,
wasn't expecting it, butwatching that I got very
triggered because I had an oldersibling who was abusive to me.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
And I started crying.
Yeah, tony's like, like,laughed at me.
He's like.
You know, why are you?
Why are you crying Like it's?

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
just a show.

Speaker 4 (01:02:56):
It's just a show.
It's just a show.
Well, we got into like a prettybig fight about it, but the
good thing about having thatconversation was he realized
like why I was crying and why itwas so triggering and why it
was very hard for me to watch.
But yeah, no, you're right, I'mvery sensitive to things.

(01:03:18):
Now I will watch Game ofThrones, though.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
Okay.

Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
Everybody gets their head chopped off at Game of
Thrones, everybody gets theirhead chopped off.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Medieval times.

Speaker 4 (01:03:28):
I don't know why that's the only exception of
mine, but it is yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:34):
But I want to go back to what what you're saying
about your, your, your learningthat the things that used to
calm you down or excite you orwhatever.
Those things are changing nowand that that's.

Speaker 3 (01:03:47):
That's a very big piece too.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
That can be difficult for folks who are in a whatever
the norm that they establishedin their relationship in the
past 5, 15, 25 years, whateveryeah, they come up and say
that's, it's not doing it for menow and see then the partner
says, we've done this for blahblah, blah, blah blah and say
well, I don't care if we've doneit since before I was born.

(01:04:08):
I'm just telling you now thatmy sensitivity is different.

Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
I think some of that is we're seeing the real world
differently.
Yeah, and what's really?

Speaker 2 (01:04:19):
one of the things that's really important there is
we're learning what nurtures usand what kicks us in the job or
some more sensitive areas.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
It's like why would I do?

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
that, and then you start to notice because
awareness is continuing to grow.
And, like you, go out and takea walk, like you know, at the
area you're just talking aboutright at your.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
You live in it pretty much.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Go there and spend a couple hours and not only the
research suggests that yourimmune function goes up for
maybe two or three days, justfrom that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:54):
But that in your mind , the mind, mind.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
the rabbit's got to run some and now the calm is
starting to come back.

Speaker 3 (01:05:07):
Yoga, meditation, all sorts of different things
Moving into silence differenttypes of music, all sorts of
stuff, but it's like we'veshifted away.

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
There's been a shifting away from avoidance
into moving into and releasing.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
Yeah, numbing and avoiding and running.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
Yeah, so what are your favorite tools?
Are your favorite tools?
Because I can honestly say thatawareness for me didn't happen
overnight or naturally.
I think the first time I didmushrooms kind of opened up this

(01:05:48):
level of awareness that I'dnever had before, and it's just
grown from that first experienceseveral years ago.
Yeah, how can people get therewithout psilocybin?
Or do you feel like, what doyou think is the best tool?

Speaker 3 (01:06:19):
well, see, I, I would , I would take your question as
uh, what is a?
What is a um?

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
a reliable.
What would be my suggestion forpreparation?

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
yeah, and the preparation would be for turning
toward discomfort.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Uh preparation like you say I want, I want awareness
to grow, I want to be moreaware of, I want to be able to
step back and watch the showthat my conditioning is playing
out here.

Speaker 3 (01:06:45):
I think one of the things that's important?

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
is it's important?
That folks find something thatresonates with them, and of
course I mean I think there areother examples- I guess, but the
two go-tos that come to me isHatha yoga and some of the other
eight limbs of yoga that mightbe helpful, and then meditation,
the thing about meditation,particularly when you get past

(01:07:10):
the weekend experiences andfive-day experiences and you go
into, like Esen, Goenka,Vipassana experiences the
container there is exceptionalyou know, just let the dogma
kind of float through you.
You know don't agree with someof that the rules and whatever
else.
But to be in a place where youronly responsibility basically

(01:07:36):
else but to be in a place wherethere's, your only
responsibility basically is tonot interfere with people and to
um, to settle into thestillness, and you do that.
I don't know six, seven hours aday, and it's not, it's not
difficult.
See to see here's the discomfortrising and see there's nothing
to be uncomfortable about noresponsibility, a quiet place, a
quiet place, generally goodfood, the two meals a day you

(01:07:59):
have, and there's such awonderful opportunity to
practice feeling uncomfortable,tied in a knot, and it's kind of
like, oh okay, let me see whatI did.
The high end of that experiencefor me was after we left Peace
Corps.
That would be after what wouldit be three or four years after

(01:08:25):
Ayahuasca experience?
I'm not sure how that feedsinto it, but I suspect it might.
I'm doing a 20-day retreatThailand and there's a time
there.

Speaker 3 (01:08:37):
I can't relax or focus because those are four
years in.

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Peace Corps, there's a lot of meditation going on, I
mean Peace.

Speaker 3 (01:08:44):
Corps.
You don't have to do much.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
I mean we got involved in different bringing
money in sewing machines, allkinds of stuff, but then to be
and I had a very difficult- timefor the first seven days, and
that's just to concentrate onthe breath right here.
Seven days, come back, comeback, come back, come back, come
back, come back.
Get your mind somewhat settledand then you shift into a body

(01:09:05):
scan that's what uh, I thinkthat's what um mbsr is based
around body scan, move up yourbody, down your body.
As soon as we shifted into that, then there was just a profound
stillness that came in.
So after a few days of that thenthere was just a time when what

(01:09:26):
they would describe as just theindividual energy, the kalapas
vibrating in the body and sothat came on, and I'm just
sitting there thinking wow, sothere's no pain here, there's
just vibrating energy and ofcourse, the idea is that that's

(01:09:47):
essentially true.
The vibrating energy like, Imean the vibrating energy all
around us, and if we can that'slike a to me it's like a high
end experience of looking beyondthe conditioning, even beyond
the conditioning of the body tomove away from things that are
uncomfortable, relax into themand to a degree, this is how
mindfulness-based stressreduction programs John Kevitt's

(01:10:09):
Zen stuff would work withsomeone in chronic pain.
What do you do?
Look at it and folks say Idon't think.

Speaker 3 (01:10:16):
I understood you.
Look at it, notice what it is.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Notice your resistance to it.

Speaker 3 (01:10:20):
Notice your labeling to it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
Notice your body tightening, and so I sat there
for at least four hours.

Speaker 3 (01:10:27):
Folks would get up.
Sit for an hour, get up theywalk around for 15 minutes.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Come back again.

Speaker 3 (01:10:31):
And I have a column of probably 15 or so monks.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
You know they're in their orange, they're over here
and when you get to these higherlevel meditation experiences,
the room will be full of people,they're not moving.
It's just it could be in thatsituation there'd be probably
100 people there.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
And it's just dead still.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
And so you sit with that dead still and you move
into that dead still and youmove, you move into that and
then you just experience.
Then the mind says well do youneed to get up?
I don't think so.
And then there's another hourand you think you'd get up not
really.
And then, of course, then theystrike a little thing for our
snack, and a snack in thailandit's like holy smokes man.

(01:11:14):
So I said I gotta get up withthis one.

Speaker 3 (01:11:17):
So up we go, and then for a couple days there's still
that that experience swordblock in some ways similar to a,
you know a psychedelicexperience, but it's seeing very
differently and it's also it'slike a training course in
objectifying experiences in thebody watching the working of the

(01:11:37):
mind and come back to awareness, non-reactive awareness.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
So I mean I don't know how serious someone would
need to get with that, but Ithink any amount that you do and
I don't know why.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
I was drawn into that , so that it made sense to me,
right, uh, but we need to findsomething to make sense, to us,
that is about being quiet andbeing in the body, and yoga
hatha yoga.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
Hatha piece of yoga is very helpful in the sense
that you know you start movingand you say, well, I can't move
past this, and you just relaxinto the discomfort, be loving
and compassionate and gentle andyou notice you've got all kinds
of movement you didn't havebefore Similar to this, and you
learn to not be so reactive tothe first sign of discomfort
that arises.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
That's probably the way more.

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
You want to know about that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
I'm interested.
Jason's much better atmeditating than I am.
Sometimes I'm like you're alittle too calm yeah so see okay
, so you're.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Uh, what's that teak?

Speaker 1 (01:12:44):
not hon, I think, said that we in the west have
very limited capacity for peaceoh, and I think a lot of people,
when we talk about aboutmeditation, they're like I can't
do it, I can't quiet my mind.
That was me, but it's like thepractice of it.
Of course you can.

Speaker 4 (01:13:01):
Right, I thought I had to be perfect and I'm like
oh, I have ADHD mind, so it'slike squirrel flower outside you
know and see if we work withthat what you said before.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
see who you truly are is not striving toward
perfection.
One of your strong conditionpieces is you've got to be
perfect.
And see when you talk about the22 and 21-year-old women here
you've got to be, perfect, butthe culture is going to bring
that on too.
Somehow we've got to break thatbubble.
But the question is how do youknow?

(01:13:34):
You can't meditate, the cultureis going to bring that on too.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
Somehow we've got to break that bubble.

Speaker 4 (01:13:37):
But the question is how do you know you can't
meditate?

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
How do you know you?

Speaker 4 (01:13:41):
aren't meditating.
I was meditating.
I think it's a practice that'sright, you were meditating.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
That's right.
Yeah, it was like you said, youcouldn't meditate.

Speaker 4 (01:13:47):
Well, I used to think that.
You used to think that, yeah,so I used to be like I can't do
that, I can't focus for more.
You know, focus on or not, justmy mind be blank and I'm like,
well, that's kind of.
The point is just practice.
Notice your thoughts.
And notice them and be like ohhey, okay, you did notice that
squirrel and that flower, Okay,that's great.

(01:14:11):
What advice would you give tolike okay, so let's say, my
stepdaughters, who are in thisworld where social media and
movies and there's just so muchbusyness and it's really hard to
date and it's really hard tokind of really find out who you

(01:14:34):
are?
Um, there are so many youngadults that are really, really
struggling right now.
I've really noticed so, like alot of their friends.
They're medicated, um, theyhave depression, they're bipolar
, they're anxious, um, theystruggle with their sexuality,

(01:14:56):
like it's.
I feel like it's more prevalentnow than when we were younger.
I didn't even know what anxietywas.
I was anxious, but I was very.
We just didn't even have thoseconversations.
We didn't have the language forit either.

Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
We didn't have the language, but either.

Speaker 4 (01:15:14):
We didn't have the link, but it's almost like they
have too much language withoutthe tools, if that makes sense.
So, like a lot of them theyidentify with, like well, I'm
depressed and I'm anxious andI'm this and non-binary and you
know all of the things, butthere's, they're all struggling,
All of them.

(01:15:34):
What advice would you give tothe younger generation, who they
are trying to find themselvesand they are trying to figure it
out?

Speaker 2 (01:15:44):
Yeah, there are a lot of major points in what you
just said, and one of them wasthey're trying to find an
identity.

Speaker 4 (01:15:56):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
And folks like.
Ken Wilber when he talks aboutthe development level of the
culture.
I think at this point he wouldsay we're like.
What he would say is like green, we're past rational now we're
into sort of anti-hierarchy evenif the hierarchy has some
purpose.
Like you know, this is amolecule and this is a cell and

(01:16:19):
all this stuff.
And when you go back to what's ahealthy upbringing, wealthy

(01:16:42):
upbringing.
A lot of that has to do with asense of belonging, a sense of
being valued, a sense of purpose, and I use the story most often
.
I think of my father beingprobably six, maybe eight, but
he would carve a slingshot forhimself and he would bring a
rabbit into the house and they'dcook the rabbit and his mother
would say we need to thank Edwinfor this.

(01:17:03):
He killed the rabbit.
So he's a little boy there, see, and then he might go hunting
with his father with a bow, orarrow or maybe a shotgun and
we're going to try to kill thisdeer and being still and silent.

Speaker 3 (01:17:20):
We're not talking about this is what you have to
do, and if you're able to dothat, then we're going to have I
don't know 50, 60 pounds ofgood meat to eat this winter.
If you don't, then father hereis going to be very clear with
you.

Speaker 2 (01:17:36):
This is not what you can do.
Not because you're insulting me, not because I want you to be a
different way, because you'rethreatening the health and
survival of our pack our planhere.

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):
And so, even as a small child, we see it in
Swaziland.
You see little?

Speaker 2 (01:17:52):
children carrying maybe a gallon of water and
they're walking up from thecreek and and they see, that was
something that mattered seethey had a role they had a
purpose and so what's happenedhere?
Again back to the amateuranthropology piece is um and
this is stealing from uh back in80s, mid-80s or so there was a

(01:18:16):
strong men's movement.
It was called Robert Bly, samKeen.

Speaker 3 (01:18:20):
these folks- and what Robert?

Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Bly would say is there was a collapse with the
Industrial Revolution, and whathe would say is that the fathers
are no longer feeding theirsons and what he would say is
that the fathers are no longerfeeding their sons, that there's
a feeding.
That happens in that experienceof saying, what are we doing
now?
We're being absolutely stilland quiet because, you know, the

(01:18:46):
deer has to come within 50 feetof us and we're planting the
corn this deep.

Speaker 3 (01:18:49):
Not this deep because the crows will get it or it'll
rot.

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
This is not a game we're playing, and it changed.

Speaker 3 (01:18:57):
It became and the father.

Speaker 2 (01:18:58):
You see, he's doing things too, that makes sense
find some more milk cows 10acres of tomatoes.

Speaker 3 (01:19:08):
Whatever it is, see, it's all right in nature working
, functioning, and he's on hisown a lot like farmers often
were back then.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
And so now the male figure which in my rearing.

Speaker 3 (01:19:23):
That would be my father, but of course he didn't
go into a factory, he was like aself-taught not self-taught.
So much but unlicensed civilengineer which you could do a
lot with in those early days.
And his last, probably 20 yearsof his job, he'd have a shotgun
in his car.
And if he came up on a cubby orquail he'd get out and hunt for

(01:19:45):
a while and I got some beautifulstories from people that worked
with him just how wonderful hewas He'd say, you know?
We've got to go get somewherein some kind of urgency.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
Well, there's a dozen quail, just jumped up and came
over man, let's go do this, andhe would tell me.
He told me as a young man, Idon't even know what job I was
working I might have been.
I was still workingconstruction job.
He said you really don't doanything you don't like to do.
He said three sons and I quit ajob with no idea of where I was
going to get another one.
It didn't matter.

(01:20:18):
I know I was going to getsomething and you always will
you get along with people youdon't mind work.
Don't worry about it, don'tstay in some place like that.

Speaker 3 (01:20:25):
I remember that I was a teenager at the time.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
I still remember that's a beautiful lesson.

Speaker 3 (01:20:38):
I don't know what the substitutes are for that.
See my father's there.

Speaker 2 (01:20:42):
He sends him to the table every day.
I know him.
My mother's not getting on toowell.
He enjoys having affairs everynow and then.
It was a delight watching himbe late 70s and taking him to
get some kind of procedure ortest and watch him interact with
the nurses.

Speaker 3 (01:21:00):
They like him and he liked them.

Speaker 2 (01:21:02):
They light up, so they just have a beautiful time,
but Mama didn't like that much.
No, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:21:08):
I would assume not.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
But it's that there's also there were clear messages.

Speaker 3 (01:21:17):
What does it?

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
mean to be a man here , and so not that it's a
definition of what a man means.

Speaker 3 (01:21:24):
I'm saying within the culture, what does it mean to
be a?
Man and I say so John, what areyou up to?
Well, I work for a telephonecompany.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
What does that mean?
Well, I type telephone pollsand blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3 (01:21:34):
Kind of a top craft job unionized and a lot of sort
of the good and bad ofmasculinity is represented there
.
But not like now, which I'm apsychologist, most psychologists
psychotherapists in particular,are going to be female Of
course I learned that, havinglittle of my father's
inclination look around and say,man, if I'm taking a psychology

(01:21:56):
class.

Speaker 2 (01:21:56):
there are some beautiful women in these classes
.
There are not so many guys, youknow, say well, that sounds
well, I can tolerate this.

Speaker 3 (01:22:03):
So all of that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
And then having the validation that this is an okay
path.
It's okay to walk away from a20-year psychotherapy practice
and go off in the world for awhile.

Speaker 3 (01:22:21):
It doesn't make any difference.

Speaker 2 (01:22:22):
You come back and do something else.

Speaker 3 (01:22:24):
Don't be afraid of that.

Speaker 2 (01:22:28):
And there are folks like back to the men's movement
and developmental psychology isnot, I haven't had much of that,
but you look and say what doesthis uh six-year-old need the?
Six-year-old comes in and heasks them the would you stay
with the?
Father because that that's a.

Speaker 3 (01:22:48):
What we're doing is trying to where's the example of
a healthy male, energy?
And a six-year-old comes in andsays Daddy, is there a God?
And six years old?
You turn to him and sayabsolutely son, absolutely don't
ever doubt it never doubt it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:04):
He comes back when he's 12, and he says Dad, is
there a God?
And you say oh, whoa, whoa son,no, that is not a question you
ask anybody outside of you.
That's a question you askinside of you Because you don't
believe anything.
Anybody tells you about that.

Speaker 3 (01:23:20):
But your questioning is very important.
See that six is not appropriateit's not appropriate to tell a
six-year-old what's?
A gender.
What's a male, what's a female?
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
Fine Are you kind of curious?
Do you know what's happened?
They're not.
They're saying now I don't know, it's mid to late 20s, before
our brain is fully developed.
So we're talking about a littleinfant here, basically in a
little bit bigger body, andwhether they're 8 or 12, and
they're confused, why would?
They be confused.
Look at the culture, look atthe images, look at the

(01:23:58):
presentations, the conditioningpresentations that you're seeing
in the media and the movies andthe rest, it's all over the
place.
So the lack of stability I'm notsaying that all the stability
is good and helpful.
I'm just talking about from thechild's perspective, if you
know what to do, like againhunting.
You're not going to sing andhum out here, son, we're waiting

(01:24:21):
on the deer.
The deer can hear you scratchyour face.
You know you can't do that, andso moving into that maturity
eight-year-old, mature enough toshoot a deer.
I'm not a big shooter person,but that's a back in the old
days that was.
That was an important thing todo.
So these days, see, I don'tknow what to say other than

(01:24:46):
notice what is going on.
Yeah, step back and notice whatis going on.

Speaker 3 (01:24:52):
And because we just flew, up from atlanta yesterday
or monday, whenever it was and,and there's a a man here, this
is a man.
He's not 16, he's 30 somethingand and a little hour, 10 minute
flight he, he never takes hismind, his, his eyes off that
phone.

Speaker 2 (01:25:10):
He is there lost another.
That's when I see a lot of theculture, I guess, of people who
have sufficient resource to flyin a plane period, and I think
they have some type of basiceducation and we're coming back
from British Columbia, I think,and there's a woman here and she
has a small child.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):
The child couldn't be over four.
And so she's on her phone andhe goes, mommy, mommy what.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
What do you want to watch?
He says I don't want to watchanything.
Well that's what we have to dohere.
That's all we have here is themovie.
What do you want to watch here?
Pick it out, go back in and I'mthinking, see if she had mother
ayahuasca or somebody to sayyou need to pay attention to
what you're doing.
You've got a three-year-old boythat says mommy, mommy, are you

(01:26:00):
there for me?
And you say no.
I'm not son, I've got some stuffto keep up with here on my
social media page, becausesocial media again, man, we talk
about something geared up forthe bam bam bam Wow, bam bam wow
.
14 seconds, 15 seconds, 50s,unbelievable.

Speaker 3 (01:26:20):
You see, again, it's getting higher and higher it
goes from the three networksblack and white, no married
couple in the bed together.

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
Now it is extreme, and so it would be like again.
I'd say folks say somethingabout they've never enjoyed a
drug.
I see ever done powder cocaine,because I mean people that
don't like that.
There's something wrong withthem.
But you need to appreciate thatwill take your soul.
I think you're safer withpowder cocaine than you are in
letting your letting yourself beconditioned, without any

(01:26:44):
interference on your higher selfpart.
Allow yourself to be driftedaway by this and allow our
culture to shape you into thehorror of the reality of it is
you can believe what they say toyou is actually an authentic
reflection of who you actuallyare.
Talk about something that'supside down, and so folks that

(01:27:06):
have had less and less of thatcan come in and they can kind of
see some of that, because I cansay, can you remember you
remember what it's like to getyour first bicycle?
And say, can you remember youremember what it's like to get
your first bicycle?
I mean, I had that when I waswhat was it 35, I think when I
got my first off-road bicycleand I was on that thing and I
said, man, I feel like I'm 12years old, I junk up over curbs,

(01:27:26):
get the ditches.
I just love that.
But there it was.

Speaker 3 (01:27:31):
I was 12 years old on my bicycle, and nowadays there
can be young men, for example,25 years old.

Speaker 2 (01:27:38):
They're not interested in getting a driver's
license.
I'm saying I mean I would sellmy mother's soul when I was.
I started driving when I was 14.

Speaker 3 (01:27:48):
Got a license at 15.
But at 13, you say what do youthink about?

Speaker 2 (01:27:51):
selling your mother's soul, unless you drive alone.
Oh yes, I don't think she needsher soul really.
I got to tell you about freedom.
Oh my goodness gracious.

Speaker 4 (01:27:59):
Well, so to add to that, that's what's really
interesting is because in Iowawe could drive at 14 if we lived
in the country.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:28:08):
I was all about that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:28:10):
And I wanted to drive .
I wanted to leave the home.
I wanted to drive.
I wanted to leave the home.
I wanted freedom, I wantedindependence.
These kids are built differentin that way where they're not
wanting to go to work, and I wasso excited to get a job make my
own money get out, right,that's right.
A lot of these kids aren't likethat.

(01:28:31):
It's really hard for them toget a job.

Speaker 2 (01:28:33):
You got to like oh, you got to yeah.
Sh Shut them out the doors.

Speaker 4 (01:28:36):
Get them to go hang out with their friends yeah.
Get them to go outside yeah.
Get off their phone.
Stop watching TV.
Yeah, they don't know a worldwithout social media and the
internet.
Right, even yeah going andgetting a license.
Yeah, like there are so manykids who just don't drive.
And I'm like what the.

Speaker 1 (01:28:55):
My 16-year-old.
I'm like I want you to go to aparty.
They don't do that anymore.
He has no desire to go hang outwith his friends because he
just can.
He.

Speaker 2 (01:29:09):
FaceTimes them, he texts them.
Well, back again, I mean what wehave is something to make
powder cocaine look like it'snot addictive at all, yeah, and
see the increasing intensity andthe dopamine rushes, and the
rest, some of the folks thatwire people up and see what's
happening in the brain.
You can just sit your phone onthe table in a restaurant,

(01:29:29):
whatever, and you get a shotfrom that.
So we're addicting our childrento shots of dopamine and we're
elevating those higher andhigher all the time and so we
say, well, it's because, see,they don't have the things, they
don't go.
When I was, what was I?

Speaker 3 (01:29:44):
I must've been 12, maybe 13.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
My first real job with the Osteens at the drive-in
movie place I elevated myselffrom taking tickets.
Now I'm actually poppingpopcorn on a popcorn machine and
then I elevate to the top ofthe line, which now I'm serving
people food at the cafeteria thewhatever concession stand.
I guess it was.
But see, those things meantsomething to me, as corny as

(01:30:10):
they are.
It's like can I do this?
I mean I'm like 12.
Now of course, I lie about myage and get a job at the grocery
store, and now I'm stockingshelves and all, and that gets
elevated too.
And so if I work hard, and.
I'm quasi-honest and don't stealtoo much, then I can see.
And then I have the gift.
Mr Collins, who was my lastboss man there, he was a good

(01:30:33):
man.
The man before that not so muchA boss man there, he was a good
man.
The man before that, not somuch the man before that said
you have to go to schooltomorrow, and I'm thinking
tomorrow's.
Wednesday he knows, he's got togo to school.
He's trying to get me to cutclasses.
Come in here and do this.
I'm not going to do that.
I'm just not going to do that.
And then Mr Collins would neverask that he sees what I see in
him is he appreciates that I'mon the road to somewhere?

(01:30:55):
I'm not going to be a bag boythe rest of my life.
The man before that doesn'tcare.
See, I see that happening.
Those things are important.
I still remember them.
I mean that's not yesterdaythat that happened.
Whether I'm getting a firstconstruction job, carrying
buckets of concrete, all thesekinds of stuff, it doesn't make
any difference.

Speaker 3 (01:31:12):
It doesn't make any difference.

Speaker 2 (01:31:22):
Are you being seen for who you are?
Are you being challenged to geta little deeper into your true
self?
Are you allowing some of yourtalents and gifts and whatever
else?
Are they coming out andsomebody saying damn, you're
good at that.
Thank you, appreciate that,because that wasn't what was
there growing up and now, ofcourse.
So you're thinking about thisodd, strange thing of staying
home as a mother and maybe dosome interactions with children,
whether they're 21 or two.

(01:31:43):
It's like, well, that was thenorm and now it's not the norm
so we moved to the place like Isee when in my, I guess it'd be
my niece my wife's niece, it'slike the new norm is and her
husband is a perfectly competentperson, college educated,

(01:32:05):
working for a plumbing company.
He could have his own businessjust with nothing Her mind 40
hours a week two children.

Speaker 3 (01:32:13):
Who's going to take care of the?

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
kids Daycare would be good.

Speaker 3 (01:32:15):
See daycare is a new invention.

Speaker 2 (01:32:17):
Daycare is a new invention.

Speaker 3 (01:32:20):
So when you ask about what's happening with our
children our children are nothaving the challenges.

Speaker 2 (01:32:31):
I should change that.
Our children are not having thedeeply validating and rewarding
challenges that used to beavailable to us.
Going to a party, all sorts ofI mean hormones kick in.
That's happening a little earlynow too.
It's not unusual for a younggirl I use that word
intentionally.
She's not a woman, she's a girl.
And now she's starting, she'shaving menstrual periods now and

(01:32:55):
she might be nine years old.
Yeah, nine years old, and Ithink the norm used to be like
14.

Speaker 3 (01:32:59):
Yeah, Some are in there, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
Because you look at her and say yeah, she's 14.
And she's kind of easing intothat young woman phase Now
they're nine or 10.
By the time they're 12,.
You might see some of those atthe movie and they look like
they're hookers and you say so,honey why do you do?
This and you say why do I dothis man?
I walk in the room.
Everybody, every man at least.
I don't care if he's eight or80, they're going to look at me

(01:33:22):
and say, holy shit, talk about abeautiful woman.

Speaker 3 (01:33:25):
She has no clue about who she is.

Speaker 2 (01:33:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:33:29):
And so you've got all these things happening.
So again, anthropology here'sthe conditioning.

Speaker 2 (01:33:33):
My wife and I spent some time in british columbia.

Speaker 3 (01:33:35):
Part of that and most of that has been in small towns
north north part of the islandin vancouver, I know, for
example, come into small and weremark about things.

Speaker 2 (01:33:45):
We have a conversation with a young person
.
They have actually look at youin the eye and listen to what
you're saying and actually havea reasonable response back to
what you're saying, and it'slike, wow, honey, there's
something different here and soI don't know what's happening
there, but somehow another, assoon as we can get a corrective

(01:34:06):
experience.
What's a corrective experience?
It may be some type of back inthe old days again it might be a
wilderness experience.
It might be learning to climb,rock climbing, it may be
something see, that's going togive.
And I think that whether you'reriding a motorcycle or you're

(01:34:27):
doing high-risk behaviors,there's some charge to that.
In a lot of ways, there's acharge that say I you know that
the sign said 30, I was doing 60.
I'm thinking, ah, that's fine,and I'd actually be able to lay
it down enough where I'm notpropelled off the side of the
mountain.
Learn to ski, learn to dosomething, learn to do something

(01:34:47):
.

Speaker 3 (01:34:47):
There's some challenging somehow don't get
that.

Speaker 2 (01:34:50):
It's like where does the self-confidence come from?
Yeah, and then of course you gointo the school system and the
school system's overwhelmedbecause the children, they're
just kind of wired up andthey're looking for something.
They're not going to get what Igot like in ninth grade.
I guess when.

Speaker 3 (01:35:06):
Ms Hahn.

Speaker 2 (01:35:07):
See, these are Cs.
I go back to my Cs.
Where's the Cs?
Where's the positive Cs shegives?

Speaker 3 (01:35:11):
me back my paper and she says you know, you're a good
writer, really.

Speaker 2 (01:35:19):
Wow.
There's this woman and she seesme and she says I'm a good
writer.
Wow, what do you have aboutthat?
Never got that at home.
And then I had I guess it wouldbe a college-level algebra
class which I had F, f, f, f, f,f, F, d, and she said there's

(01:35:41):
no reason for you to notgraduate and see she saw me too,
but I mean you know, if yousmoked up and drank a lot of
alcohol college-level math doesnot calculate well in the brain.
So those little gifts, I don'tknow.

(01:36:03):
I don't know, I don't know whatto say other than notice what
you're doing Detox yourself.
Nature seems like such a areasonable, easy access, if you
do it go out in the fieldsomeplace for a couple of hours
or in the woods in a couple ofhours without your phone.

(01:36:24):
I think your phone is adangerous machine, so you're
sitting there without your phoneand just look at just sit down
and notice the life around you,and that's one thing about, like
the rainforest out west.
You just sit there and it'slike holy smokes.

Speaker 3 (01:36:41):
And Jordan and I, we've discovered the slugs that
are out there.
They're slugs and they'redifferent colors, and so we'd
stop and sit, and one time Ithink we were at least there 20,
25 hours and then you startseeing this guy.

Speaker 2 (01:36:52):
He's about this big, then he's this big and at some
point he lifts up and you see,there's a face under there.
There's just a face under there.
It's like a little personlooking at.
See.
I've never gotten that close tosnails before we actually
believe it or not.

Speaker 3 (01:37:05):
I hate to confess this we had poison for snails in
our garden.
We don't do that anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:37:10):
we just go out and talk to them and say, hey, you
know, you just don, just don'teat everything, it doesn't
matter if you eat anything.

Speaker 3 (01:37:16):
We're not going to kill these guys.
They have little faces.

Speaker 2 (01:37:18):
Yeah, I don't know how you do that.
I don't know how somebody goesout and stays in the woods for
three or four days, one of mypersonal rehab experiences back
when I was still working inTampa at least once a year,
maybe twice.

Speaker 3 (01:37:33):
I'd go up by myself four or five days in the woods
up in.
Shining Rock.

Speaker 2 (01:37:37):
Wilderness around Asheville, and it'd be what am I
doing?

Speaker 3 (01:37:41):
I said what are you doing up there?

Speaker 2 (01:37:42):
Well, I started out talking to trees, and that's
fine talking to trees, but manafter two or three days.

Speaker 3 (01:37:47):
the trees start talking back, and that is
important it really is.
I went there and did aboutthree grams of mushrooms and
it's like holy smoly Now.

Speaker 2 (01:37:56):
this is a nice place to do three grams of mushrooms.

Speaker 4 (01:38:02):
I did five grams outside and.
Tony came out and I said youknow, I need you to leave me
alone because I'm talking to thetrees right now.
And I was talking to them andthey were talking to me back
yeah, yeah, yeah but, back tothe, the parenting thing.
You know, having a five-year-oldand also not having so much on

(01:38:27):
my plate has been reallywonderful because I am able to
watch him do things with so muchwonder.
Things for him, like if we'reoutside and we're at the park
things are slower, like ourwalks are slower, getting things
done is slower, but I'm I'mlearning to appreciate that

(01:38:50):
because he wants to stop and hewants to like play with the
grasshopper and look at the ladybug and look at the flower and
talk about the butterfly.
And I'm trying to, like he isso authentically himself, and
learn from him and how he seesthe world.
And I think a lot of times weare, we stray away from that

(01:39:11):
because of our parenting andconditioning and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:39:15):
But we're also, as adults, we're also, you know, we
have a dopamine addiction.

Speaker 4 (01:39:21):
Yeah, oh, I have to.
I've had to set limits on myphone.
So you know, at nine o'clock atnight I can't be on social
media.
From 10 to two I can't be onsocial media because it is so
easy to just pick it up get itboom, boom boom okay, there's,
three hours goes by, yeah andit's like what was I even doing?

(01:39:42):
Jason?

Speaker 1 (01:39:43):
wants to get a dumb phone.
Oh good, I've thought aboutthat too.
A phone that calls like and I'mlike we're calling it a dumb
phone, like.
Remember when they first hadthem and we were like this is
awesome that's a smartphone yeah, it's pretty smart, yeah, but I
also agree, like I think a lotof what's happening is like the
problem isn't with the kidsnecessarily, it's with the

(01:40:07):
parents and we have to heal inorder to give them a space to
heal in, in order to see them.
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:40:16):
Well, and how can we teach them to be connected to
ourselves when we'redisconnected?
We're disconnected to them.
We're connected to things likeour phone.

Speaker 1 (01:40:24):
I also think this is so wild because I've never been
a stay-at-home mom.
Past 18 months has been mything.
And what does Elle's Christmaslist upstairs say?

Speaker 4 (01:40:35):
Homeschool she list upstairs, say homeschool.

Speaker 1 (01:40:37):
She wants to be homeschooled.
So bad, and I've thought aboutit.
I've thought about it and Idon't even know how to go about
it, I have two and I.
I don't even know where tostart, but it's crossed my mind
because it what you're saying,with the schools and everything
like it's.
It's all like I want to.
I want to be home, but I alsolike I want to have a commune

(01:40:58):
and I want you to be there andDr Sheila, you can come visit
like who's going to garden andwe have a community kitchen, so
like that village is somethingthat, like our grandparents had,
that we thought was crazy andnow I want it back.

Speaker 4 (01:41:14):
Leah and I are in the process of making our own bread
, oh great.

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
Oh, I've made the bread.
I haven't made sourdough bread,but I've made honey wheat bread
and it's delicious.
That's great, but my kids arelike do you have any more of
that bread?

Speaker 3 (01:41:26):
Yeah, but what you're saying is back again advice.

Speaker 2 (01:41:33):
I think you're spot on when you say what we're
working with really are parentsyeah.
And so it's not like parentsjust got pulled into the
addictive whatever's there.
I mean, I saw that when I was.
I don't forget what I waslooking at.
Somebody said you've got to putyourself on the social media or
whatever.
And I was there for like 90minutes.

Speaker 3 (01:41:54):
Easy, I was sitting in the backyard and I'm saying,
damn, for like 90 minutes Easy,and I'd sit in the backyard and
I'd say, damn, it's 3.30.

Speaker 2 (01:41:58):
How did I get to be 3.30?

Speaker 3 (01:41:59):
So I'd say just don't do it.
Just you know same thing about.

Speaker 2 (01:42:02):
I don't have any powder cocaine.
I don't have any flour cannabisflour in my house.
Yeah, Don't have sugar in myhouse.

Speaker 3 (01:42:12):
back, there in the corner that's a little treat,
but the thing of being able torealize that if I'm awake, then
my child can have a model ofbeing awake.
And I can also be awake andcurious.
So when?
They stop it's sort of likewalking the person that really
is tuning in with their dog.

Speaker 2 (01:42:33):
The dog says who's going for the walk?
My dog's going for the walk.
And so here we go and they stop, and they've got to smell
something or whatever to comeback and they blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah.
That's not the only way totreat a dog, but it's just kind
of what we did.
But you get to that place wherethere's an appreciation for that
, when they stop and you see thechild, the five-year-old, the

(01:42:54):
six-year-old, that you see, thewhatever and see it's sort of
like in back to therelationships, like like we're
shaping ourselves up to to treatour partner.
I want to notice the thingsthat are are helpful to our
marriage which is um.
I guess it was uh jose was.

Speaker 3 (01:43:15):
Joseph Campbell.
That said in a marriage there'snot, there are individuals
anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:43:22):
It's not me and you, it's simply the marriage.
So what helps the marriage arethese experiences and these
supports and so whenever thepartner does something that
other partner recognizes it says, wow, I need to support that,
and it could be all sorts oflittle things.
You could be over there.
One partner's lost in whateverthey're lost into.

(01:43:42):
And the other partner says Ithink I'm going to go for a walk
.
Okay, you want to go with me?
Instead of saying go for a walk, let's do it, or whatever else
it is, I'm going to go meditateand go do some yoga.
Let's do partner's yoga.
That's a beautiful thing.

Speaker 3 (01:44:00):
It really is, because it's all sorts of you know a
good teacher and guide.

Speaker 2 (01:44:04):
You can do all kinds of things that are trusting and
build confidence.

Speaker 4 (01:44:07):
Yeah, I've always wanted to try that.
I didn't think I was flexibleenough.

Speaker 1 (01:44:12):
It's a practice.

Speaker 2 (01:44:17):
That's why you do yoga exactly.
I wish there was more I wish.

Speaker 3 (01:44:22):
I had an understanding of how people can
deal with the culture and the.

Speaker 1 (01:44:29):
Thing you can't save the world.

Speaker 2 (01:44:31):
Well, I can, I've done that already that, I say,
is my Jesus complex and that'swhat got us into peace corps my
wife said something like I'vealways wanted to go to the peace
corps, so I was actually inbrazil.
I'm filling out the application.
I'm down there with john of god.
He's got some bad reputationhere lately, but uh and and so I
sent her a text.
I said honey, you're filling outyour application and she says

(01:44:54):
well not yet I not yet I saidwe've got to apply to Peace
Corps, and so we applied toPeace.
Corps and off we go.

Speaker 3 (01:44:59):
Then we traveled After we left the country we
were never going to get for ourfour-year sabbatical.
We didn't know if we were goingto get in or not.
We get phone calls sitting inPeru.
Our cell phones are stillworking.
Ring, ring, hello.
We still want to go, absolutelywant to go.
Would you go to sub-SaharanAfrica?

Speaker 2 (01:45:15):
Absolutely Off we go.
So it's just, you just neverknow.
It's sort of like being able torecognize the opportunities,
yeah, and some of theopportunities are not going to
be supported by the real realityin our culture.
They're going to say that'sridiculous.
You know, don't?

Speaker 3 (01:45:35):
do that when I was 56 .

Speaker 2 (01:45:39):
Wait, wait, 20 years or do peace corps when you're 12
or you know.
I guess that most people thereare just out of college but
somehow or another they'replanning that, that interest in
that drive to have an actualembodied experience of some
variety.

Speaker 4 (01:45:56):
Yeah, we have um with the podcast.
We have both struggled with, uh, cause it's almost like if you
have a podcast, if you have abusiness now you have to be on
social media.
And so both of I have both ofus have struggled with social
media and feeling the pressureto show up in a consistent way,

(01:46:17):
and we recently have showed upway, way, way less, like
non-existent, like non-existentum.
And what's interesting aboutthat is, I think, that people
often think, like if you don'tshow up online, that there's
something wrong oh yeah, andyou're not good, I've wondered
that.

Speaker 1 (01:46:36):
I'm like I wonder what our listeners are thinking,
Cause we don't post anymore.
We haven't said anything.
We've just kind of taken a stepback and kind of focused more
on our worlds, our inner worlds.
Yes, without telling them,we're doing it.

Speaker 4 (01:46:54):
Yeah, but but yeah, we're we.
Yes, without telling them we'redoing it.
Yeah, but yeah.
We live in a world where, ifyou don't show up on social
media, something's wrong andit's like no, something is right
because I'm not on social media.

Speaker 3 (01:47:02):
That's right and that's something you might
consider.
What the impact?

Speaker 2 (01:47:06):
might be, but that might be.
Here's what we're doing.

Speaker 4 (01:47:09):
Yeah, here's what we're doing.

Speaker 2 (01:47:11):
Yeah, and you know here's what we're doing, yeah,
and you know here's what we'redoing.
We're pulling away from this,yeah, and we're we're plugging
in every now and then and we sayyou know, we have a handful of
podcasts that we will.

Speaker 3 (01:47:21):
We follow because we do but there I'm trying to think
of uh it it.

Speaker 2 (01:47:28):
I don't know if it's anybody as folks out there doing
interviews and they say someoneasked him about.
What do you do about all thosecomments?
He said I never look, yeah,Never look, Joe Rogan.

Speaker 3 (01:47:41):
I think I mean somebody's a big time person as
far as podcasts go Right.

Speaker 1 (01:47:46):
I think it may have been him.
He said I don't look at thatyeah.

Speaker 4 (01:47:49):
Yeah.
Because you could go down.
I mean, we've been guilty of itwhere we've, you know
especially Like responding andgetting worked up Well, and two
women, two moms.

Speaker 2 (01:48:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:48:03):
Who talk openly about our psychedelic use, and
there's, you know, people inthis space who they're like.
You don't look the part.
You don't look the way you'resupposed to look, or you know,
and in the moment it felt like,look the way you're supposed to
look.
Or you know, and in the momentit felt like I'm not bothered by
this.
So I'm going to tell you what Ireally think.

Speaker 2 (01:48:22):
Yes.

Speaker 4 (01:48:23):
Now, looking back, it's like you weren't even worth
our energy.

Speaker 2 (01:48:27):
Right.

Speaker 4 (01:48:27):
Because you don't know me.

Speaker 2 (01:48:30):
So that to me is so important is to figure out what
is worth our energy, yeah andrealize that there's so many
demands out there that if we, ifwe don't, if we don't do some
of that, then we're going to getburned out right, because it's
sort of like and what I sayabout, about myself is I.
I was an activist and I startedlike earth save in tampa and we

(01:48:50):
did john robin's here and allsorts of stuff, and then active
in meditation community and allsorts of stuff.
and active in meditationcommunity and all sorts of stuff
, bring teachers in from allover.
Blah, blah, blah blah.
I retired from that and nowthere's a deeper level than
retirement.
I'm in a place where I reallyhave to block my engagement with
so much stuff because it's justnot my job.

(01:49:12):
Because it's just not my joband the overstimulation of the
stuff, climate change politics.
Oh yeah, questions you ask aboutwhat should we do with our
children, blah, blah, blah.
I say well, sorry, and thenother things that I need in
order to stay adequatelybalanced.

Speaker 3 (01:49:32):
Need to go in the woods, need to go take trips,
need to do different things.
Why are you doing it?

Speaker 2 (01:49:37):
Because I'm needed, and there are more important
things to do around here.
No, not for me and folks say,well, you know you should
contribute.
Why don't you go to southernAfrica for two and a half years
and go with a Peace Corps andtell me that I need to go work
in the ditch for a while?
What are you doing?
So I think I'd already donethat.

(01:49:58):
I'm going to check that box andthat was my Jesus complex.
I'm going to go save the world.
Found out, got this piece aboutthere.
And you say well, I don't thinkso.
John, this is pretty big.
Going to help that person, tohelp that child?
Nope, nope.
How about that one?

(01:50:19):
Yeah, let's focus on that one.
Too big can't do it all.
Three eyes, yeah, and it's sortof three eyes in our life now.

Speaker 4 (01:50:22):
So it's always that way.
Yeah, well, it's like.
It's like you speak aboutsomething.
It's like well, why don't youspeak about this?
Why don't you?

Speaker 1 (01:50:27):
talk about this.

Speaker 4 (01:50:28):
Why don't you care about these people?
and it's like it's not enough itwell it can never, it never
ends.
And then, if you know, if youhave a little bit of a platform,
it's it's you.
Enough, it will.
It can never, it never ends.
And then, if you know, if youhave a little bit of a platform,
it's it's you.
I feel like you can get held toa really high standard and have
a microscope on you of well,you said this about this, why
don't you talk about this?
And it's just.
I want to be home with myfamily right now.

Speaker 1 (01:50:52):
I just want to be home.

Speaker 4 (01:50:53):
I just want to be home and I want to make my bread
and I want to go for a hike.
That's what's really importantto me right now.

Speaker 1 (01:51:02):
And that, to me, is saving the world.
It is Absolutely that is doingthat?

Speaker 2 (01:51:07):
Where is that it's saying?
There somewhere.

Speaker 4 (01:51:10):
Mother.

Speaker 2 (01:51:10):
Teresa, the notion is that we really save the world
by saving ourselves.

Speaker 4 (01:51:15):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:51:18):
And we can't get caught.

Speaker 3 (01:51:20):
It's another one of those attachment issues the
cultivated adaptive strategies,whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:51:27):
So, yeah, I'm Mother Teresa or I'm Jesus or I'm
somebody.
Well, who are you really?
You're trying to act a role andyou know maybe it's a better
role than being.
You know something else, butit's still a role and we can't
be who we are if we can't takethese insights, like you're
having, and say it's time forthis to fall away.

(01:51:47):
And that's why I don't want toget lost with this one, but I've
been working for a while now onthe notion of dying well living
in a way that dying makes sense, and one of the biggest pieces
there is what we're talkingabout now, and

(01:52:09):
that's sort of like here's therole I'm playing, here's what's
taking my energy.

Speaker 3 (01:52:14):
Here's what I'm invested in and now that's gone.

Speaker 2 (01:52:17):
Let's just let that go now, and then we have some
type of period where we can havean open to a transformation,
insights, whatever it is, andnow okay, here comes a rebirth.

Speaker 3 (01:52:28):
We're not talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:52:30):
In some way it can be a spiritual rebirth too, but
I'm just talking about what arewe filling our time with?

Speaker 3 (01:52:36):
Because if we don't do that, then we're going to get
burned out.

Speaker 2 (01:52:39):
It's not going to be bringing us alive anymore, and
if we're not, brought alive mysimple philosophy is it's not
what we need to be doing.

Speaker 3 (01:52:48):
If it ain't fun, don't do it.

Speaker 2 (01:52:50):
I mean it's yeah, yeah, time to have more water.

Speaker 4 (01:52:56):
yeah, yeah, I brought up mother Teresa because she I
think it was her that said thequote like the best thing oh
gosh, I'm gonna butcher thislike the best thing you can do
to like heal the world is to gohome and like love your family,
or something like that yeah,okay, yeah, and I think we did
an episode on this last yearwhere it was like I'm doing my

(01:53:16):
part by working on me.

Speaker 1 (01:53:20):
I don't need to be an activist, I don't need to put
out there whose side I'm on,because I'm focused on myself.

Speaker 3 (01:53:28):
Call it selfish, but it's the best thing I can do for
my family.

Speaker 2 (01:53:32):
I don't see that as selfish.
I'll roll back.
I don't know why this image iscoming up.
See that as selfish.
Again, I'll roll back.
I don't know why this image iscoming up.
We were bounced around fromthose storm things and we're
bounced around airports.
They sent us out to Minneapolissomewhere.
We're trying to get to New Yorkand you can see in my view, you
can see some of the worst of.

Speaker 3 (01:53:50):
America in those situations, because people are
yelling at the people and allthis stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:53:54):
And so I'm coming up to this poor young woman who's
been yelled at.
I'm just standing there, and soshe's doing what she does and
she sort of starts like okay,yeah, I'm just seeing if we can
get a flight out to.
What can we do here?

Speaker 3 (01:54:12):
And she's sort of like she has to readjust herself
because she has to.
It's like working with policeofficers they have to put their
armor on because, of whatthey're dealing with.
They're not safe and she's notsafe.

Speaker 2 (01:54:26):
She can't be herself.

Speaker 3 (01:54:28):
And there are a lot of situations like that I find
is that they're like in thatexperience in the restaurant and
airport.

Speaker 2 (01:54:35):
I connected with a woman that served us.

Speaker 3 (01:54:40):
I don't know what she was 45 or something, but she
was there.

Speaker 2 (01:54:45):
And then the people who were cooking.
I looked back there and said Ireally love watching you guys
cook and that's not a huge bigthing, but it's at least
something that brings some senseof I appreciate your sacrifice
so I can have a decent mealwhatever it is, but if we free
ourselves up, of the things thatwe're thinking speaking and

(01:55:07):
doing that are draining ourenergy.
I think that's what naturallycomes out.

Speaker 3 (01:55:12):
I really believe this notion that people are really
genuinely loving.

Speaker 2 (01:55:17):
This is a loving species and somehow we're
forgetting how to do that andthat's just spooky to me and I
see it deteriorating rapidly.
We've been back in the countrynow about 11 years and I see it.
It's different.
People aren't as warm as theyused to be.

(01:55:37):
If I'm passing somebody in theKroger I would say, excuse me.
Most people these days have noresponse to that.

Speaker 3 (01:55:45):
And see if we go back to attachment issues, which you
learned something about withrelationships particularly.
I want to mention her namewould be Sue.
Johnson.

Speaker 2 (01:55:53):
And there's anything.
I've talked about here.
I'm going to have some kind ofreference on my website about it
, but she shows a little videoof a small child and the mother
and the mother just goesstone-faced and the baby goes
berserk.

Speaker 3 (01:56:09):
Can't stand it.
And then you see a couple kindof acting out the same way.
We've forgotten how to be openand we've forgotten how
important it is to have anengaged face to say how are you
doing and connect and say youknow, welcome to our store.

Speaker 2 (01:56:25):
I had that at Costco, right where there is around
here, and it's like the youngwoman and I said can I put this
card on my phone?
And she said need an app.
I said I need an app, costcoapp.
I said okay.

Speaker 3 (01:56:38):
But see, she's a zombie.

Speaker 2 (01:56:41):
She's not saying saw it in the hospital the other day
doing some basic checkup stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:56:49):
That nurse did not take care of that man Lefty 83
years old.

Speaker 2 (01:56:52):
He's sort of walking around.
She's walking away from him.
You need to put him where heneeds to be you need to pay
attention to what you're doingand so because she's off,
wherever she is, she's offwherever she's not used to
focusing anymore yeah and beingable to a lot of that little
sidebar is about noticing therewards where they exist.

(01:57:15):
They are rich, wonderfulrewards in being present and
being open and allowing just thenatural sense of concern and
compassion to just.
It's not.
That's not work.
That is not work.

Speaker 3 (01:57:29):
The work is getting the noise out of the way, so the
true loving signal can come out.

Speaker 4 (01:57:36):
I love that you said that Tony and I we went on a
date on Friday and it's beenforever since we had gone on a
date and we had a wonderfulconversation with just the
waiter and it ended up just veryorganic Me and this guy
exchanged not weird, soundsweird.

Speaker 1 (01:57:59):
No, I get it, don't worry about it.

Speaker 4 (01:58:00):
Yeah, we exchanged information because I just
started bringing up psychedelicsand you know whatever, and we
had just this beautifulconversation and a lot of the
pressure I have felt has been tolike show up in a certain way,
be seen, be heard, because oftengrowing up, I didn't feel seen

(01:58:22):
or heard, and so Tony waswatching this interaction and,
like he was, like I just lovewatching you be yourself.
And when you be yourself andjust be you even if it's at a
restaurant or wherever, likepeople love you.
The right people love you.

Speaker 2 (01:58:42):
Wow, that's beautiful .

Speaker 4 (01:58:43):
And I was like, yeah, yeah, you're right.
I always felt like I had toshow up in a certain way on
social media or whatever and getthat attention.
Where I'm now I'm, I'm having abetter time integrating my last
psilocybin journey, because I'mlike, oh, so that's what you
mean about just being?

Speaker 2 (01:59:00):
Being yeah, that's great.
Stop trying to be.
Yeah, that's what you mean.

Speaker 4 (01:59:04):
Ancestor, about just being.
You don't have to try.
You just be you and just you'llmake the connections that way
and you don't have to try sohard to be liked and be seen.

Speaker 2 (01:59:14):
And that's such a beautiful example, you see, of
the wonder of a couple.
Yeah, see, he didn't say Idon't really like to sit here in
a restaurant.
I want you watch this guy tryto pick you up.

Speaker 4 (01:59:26):
It wasn't that I swear.
I know I swear.
He was like he could be mygrandpa.

Speaker 2 (01:59:31):
Well, I'm just saying've got this energy, but
he's looking at you and he isseeing you.

Speaker 3 (01:59:40):
He is recognizing your authentic self and he tells
you that yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:59:45):
So that's that support that I was talking about
.

Speaker 4 (01:59:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:59:49):
You're not nine years old or eight years old, and
he's not either.
Right Two functioning adultssaying this is the woman I love,
I care about, she's the heartof my life.
And here's an opportunity tosay wow, I just want you to know
yeah, so wonderful to see you.

Speaker 4 (02:00:02):
Yeah, he always jokes that even though I didn't have
a dad, I have a daddy now.
So there you go Exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:00:13):
Who sees you?

Speaker 4 (02:00:14):
for who you are Exactly, yeah who sees you for
who you are exactly yeah, soit's you know.

Speaker 2 (02:00:19):
Yeah, well, that's some of the stuff we're talking
about.
Really, it's got likereparenting.

Speaker 4 (02:00:21):
Yes, it really is, yes and that's what we have
conversations about.
That and that is his joke.
He's like listen, you didn'thave a dad.
You got a daddy.

Speaker 1 (02:00:29):
Now you're good and we have dr shaley and we have dr
shaley he's.

Speaker 2 (02:00:36):
He comes in rambles about stuff all the time I love
your rambles.

Speaker 4 (02:00:40):
Yeah, I appreciate it .

Speaker 1 (02:00:41):
I love my rambles too , so it's a little bit different
when you're not like digging inon me I know yeah it doesn't
feel as intimidating.
I'm not crying it's not atherapy session.

Speaker 4 (02:00:54):
I'm like my mom and my dad did this.

Speaker 2 (02:00:58):
I'm feeling like a failure sitting here today, no
tears happening.

Speaker 1 (02:01:03):
No tears happening.
You didn't get to it.
No, you got to it really well,just in a different way.
We appreciate everything thatyou do.
We send a lot of people yourway.
I don't know how many of themare brave enough to come, but
anytime somebody reaches out tous about a journey or anything
that they've had troubleintegrating or setting an

(02:01:24):
intention, we send them your way.
We're like.
You don't have to break up withyour therapist, Just go see Dr
Sheely.

Speaker 2 (02:01:31):
I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (02:01:32):
He'll help you get on the right track.
You helped us in so many wayshelped our relationships and
you're helping so many peopleWell.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (02:01:40):
Well, it's all a part of my own growth and my own
healing to be able to do that.
If I couldn't do that, thenwhat would I be doing?

Speaker 1 (02:01:48):
What would you be doing?

Speaker 3 (02:01:50):
That's like maybe in the transition phase, yeah, find
something that brings you alivebecause there's, there's
there's more growing and morehealing.

Speaker 2 (02:01:58):
I don't know if it ever stops.
So till you die I don't evenknow about that part.
I mean this there's some realinteresting stuff out there
about, or in here too, aboutopening up to spirit, and what
is that.
But I mean I don't, I don'tmind, I just don't know what it
is, but there seems to be some,some presence that, if we have

(02:02:20):
experiences like we have with uhyou know, sufficient dose of of
different medicines, then it'slike we, it's like it tunes in
our, our ear, like someone whoknows music and they'll say his
guitar string's too loose orwhatever and I'll sing.
Then I thought that was a violin, so it's like.
But people that know, know, andso if we know and start looking

(02:02:43):
for that, oh, there's thespirit, there's the spirit of my
authentic partner, there's thespirit of that five-year-old,
there's the spirit of that12-year-old.
Because see, that's what's notbeing supported and fed Back to
the question what's the advice?

Speaker 1 (02:03:08):
Find somebody that recognizes you, does that person
have to also recognizethemselves or be able to
recognize themselves?

Speaker 2 (02:03:12):
Pretty difficult task , isn't it?

Speaker 1 (02:03:14):
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (02:03:16):
And they also have to be tuned in to what's important
, but not about the distractionI mean it just makes me a little
bit batty to see a young couple, young couple and and they're
at the table and it's like yousee them.
I'm saying you people should bewhat you know you're missing.
You're just missing such awonderful time in your life
Hormones going crazy beingrecognized, physical touch,

(02:03:40):
sexual intimacy All this stuffis right there opening up and
you're saying did you see thisone?
Take your phone and smash itwith a hammer.

Speaker 1 (02:03:52):
Throw it away.

Speaker 4 (02:03:53):
Yeah, I'm about ready too.

Speaker 1 (02:03:55):
I think it would be really good to just go on like a
phone break through theholidays the holidays really get
to us, especially us and we'regoing into an election right now
yeah, and it's you know, if youvote this way, right, try not
to.
So yeah, I say turn them off.

Speaker 2 (02:04:18):
That's a great idea.

Speaker 1 (02:04:18):
Put them away as much as you can.
I know that I have.
You know I've got schoolscalling me right now.
So that type of stuff like Ican't completely get rid of it,
but just try to turn off alittle bit more and be
intentional about it.
Intention to me is like huge.

Speaker 4 (02:04:35):
With everything.
With everything with everything, psychedelics or not like.

Speaker 1 (02:04:38):
Listen, I know a soda is not good for me, but like
I'm gonna have this soda and I'mgonna enjoy it on the weekend
because I like the way it tastes.
I know it's not good for me,but I'm gonna be intentional
with it.
Yeah, I like that.
How can um'll put your?
Is it okay to put your website?
I love like the resources thatyou have like three or four

(02:05:00):
books.
Yeah, You've got, it's a.
It's a full of resources.

Speaker 2 (02:05:06):
It's been there for a long time.

Speaker 1 (02:05:08):
So you always add to it oh yeah, okay, sure.

Speaker 2 (02:05:10):
Especially yeah, different things and this.

Speaker 3 (02:05:12):
Yeah, different things and just the form it
takes too Like my website upuntil before psychedelics was
all about mindfulness.

Speaker 2 (02:05:18):
Now it really looks like it's a vibe generator
somewhere.
And then also the resources arethere too different.

Speaker 3 (02:05:25):
As.

Speaker 2 (02:05:25):
I present different things like attachment theory,
somatic experiencing there'slittle sections of that in
different ways.

Speaker 1 (02:05:32):
So even if people aren't lucky enough to get to
meet you in person, you have somany resources.

Speaker 2 (02:05:39):
And then I'm still uh , offer like a 20 minute
conversation to somebody if theywant to, if we connect and we
have a phone call or whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:05:47):
So I've sent so many people his way From high school
who did like a call with youfrom like London, kentucky, all
right, and I thought that waslike so cool, because she was
like it's okay that I can't doin person yeah, so obviously not
dropping names but I was justlike, oh my gosh, that's so cool
.
I went to high school with thisperson.

Speaker 2 (02:06:06):
That's great, and I do a lot of Zoom calls with
people, yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:06:11):
Oh, you do, that's what she was doing.

Speaker 4 (02:06:16):
She was seeing him through Zoom.
Okay, good to know.
Yeah, good to know for ournon-local listeners.

Speaker 2 (02:06:19):
Oh yeah, yeah, Not all over the place.

Speaker 1 (02:06:22):
So here you guys go, the man, the myth, the legend.

Speaker 2 (02:06:24):
Da-da-da.

Speaker 1 (02:06:28):
One of our favorite people, Da-da-da yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:06:31):
And sort of an ongoing joke with my wife is I.
And it's sort of an ongoingjoke with my wife is I say,
honey, the only thing wrong withme is my humility.

Speaker 1 (02:06:40):
I'm just too humble.
Anything, any last statementsyou want to leave our listeners
with, or us with, or anything Idon't know.

Speaker 2 (02:06:50):
I think we covered a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:06:51):
We did, we did.

Speaker 2 (02:06:54):
That piece about finding practices that resonate
with you that are moving youtoward greater stillness
wholeness and a deeper sense ofyour authentic being.
There are all sorts of stuffout there that can be such a

(02:07:14):
powerful thing to just recognizewhat is a distraction and what
is an enriching, embodiedexperience of who you truly are.
Figure that out, man, becauseif you don't, if we don't do
that, we're lost really.

Speaker 1 (02:07:32):
And we're all just walking each other home.

Speaker 2 (02:07:34):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (02:07:35):
I love that.
I love that Some Ram Dass, butI think it's like when someone
figures it out you know, listento them I think a lot of times
we don't listen to other people.
We think we got it all figuredout.
We don't ask for help.

Speaker 2 (02:07:53):
Well, you guys see Whether I watch.
Go to.
Yeah, she'll there, you goWhether.

Speaker 1 (02:07:55):
I watch.
Go to that.
Yeah, she'll help you out.
All right To all our listeners.
Thank you for listening.
If you don't hear from me andChristine, or see us, we'll
explain later.
Well, but we have been taking abreak and I'm sure you've
noticed.
But we're still here and we'regood.
We're good, we're just takingcare of ourselves and our

(02:08:17):
families and stay open, becurious and we'll see you on the
other side, all right.

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95 | Transformative Therapy and Psychedelics with Dr. Shealy

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}95 | Transformative Therapy and Psychedelics with Dr. Shealy