98 | The Third Perspective: Politically Homeless in a Polarized World - See You On The Other Side

Episode Transcript
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Christine (00:04):
you got this.
I uh screenshotted all yourthreads because my um I always
lock my social media apps.
Thanks we'll get to it, if weget to it I would like to share
that because I I forgot aboutthat.
That, because I forgot aboutthat.

(00:37):
Can you see the time?
Yeah, okay, all right,everybody, season four.
See you on the other side.
Welcome back Episode one and ahalf.
That first one counts.
That first one counts.
It does, it does.

(00:57):
And if you are listening tothis, early.

Leah (00:59):
Congrats, boy.
Do we have an episode for you?
You ready, leah?
No, no, yeah, I'm ready.
Um, this is really scary for me.
Um, I'm glad you're here withme.
I don't think I could do thiswithout you.
But, at the same time, I'mgoing to give this, I'm going to

(01:20):
put this information.
I'm going to give thisinvitation out to our listeners.
I'm going to put thisinformation, I'm going to give
this invitation out to ourlisteners.
I invite you to do some sort ofgrounding meditation.
Find some way to groundyourself before you listen to

(01:41):
this.
Listen with an open heart andan open mind and, um, I think
it's.
It might be incrediblyuncomfortable for some people to
hear, and for others, I thinkit will be incredibly comforting
to hear.

Christine (01:59):
I sure hope so.

Leah (02:01):
I a hundred percent think so, based on on conversations
that I've had in the past year,I think that a lot of people are
in this same boat.
So I'm going to kind of sitback and let you take the lead
on this, and not because I'mscared, but it's because of what

(02:23):
I said in our last episode.
I don't need these right now.
It's because of what I said inour last episode.
You have really, like, I admirethe way you speak on these
topics so much and you haveopened my eyes to so much, um,
and I have learned through you,but I am better at the way in

(02:46):
which I speak.
I am better at relating thingsback to personal experiences
than absorbing all theinformation and the facts, and I
think in this area, like youare so much more articulate than
I am.
So take the lead, christine.

Christine (03:10):
All right.
So um back in November I postedsomething about well, let me
just backtrack, I have votedDemocrat.
My entire life I have votedDemocrat my entire life Same Yep
.
And back in November I hadposted a few things just from my

(03:38):
own words, talking about whereI had struggle.
I had been struggling to alignwith the democratic party and I
had felt this way for some timeand I got a lot of flack.

Leah (04:00):
You got so much hate.

Christine (04:02):
I got a lot of hate.
I had a lot of people who justunfriended me, who I was
genuinely friends with.
I got people who I wasn'tfriends with at all maybe met
them once and were sending meincredibly hateful and just

(04:23):
aggressive, aggressive messages.
How can you sleep with yourselfat night?
Um, you know whatever?
Calling me names?
Um, there was a woman who hasadopted Marshallese children and

(04:43):
sent me a message and she waslike I'm blocking you.
How can you be Marshallese andsay this?
All of this?
But I got way more people whowere like thank you for saying
that.

(05:03):
I have felt that way for so long.
I am a business owner and I'mscared to speak about it.
Um, I am somebody who I'm notgood with confrontation in that
way.
Um, so I have not said anything, um, and I appreciate you using
your voice, and so I kind ofwant to backtrack.
So again, every election.

(05:26):
The first time I was able tostart voting was in 2008,.
Voted for Obama twice, votedfor Biden, voted for Hillary and
was somebody who is veryvocally anti-Trump vocally

(05:50):
anti-Trump 2016.
Can you almost not go on asecond date with your husband
Over that?
Yes, okay, so let's, let's talkabout that.
Tony, my husband and I, we hadgone on a date, and this was in
2017.
So Trump was already presidentand I did everything you're like
technically not supposed to doon a first date and I brought up
religion and I brought uppolitics and we started talking

(06:16):
about politics and I was like ifyou voted for Trump, I will not
go on a second date with you.
And he was like well, I didn'tvote for Trump, I voted for Gary
Johnson.
And I was like so you voted forTrump, which was essentially
which is yes, this isessentially a voted for Trump
because you didn't vote forHillary and he was like, and he
was somebody who was like, well,I didn't align with Hillary and

(06:39):
I didn't align with Trump andso I voted for somebody who I
felt more aligned with and Ithink that's what you should do
and I fought hard back.
I fought back hard on that andI was very adamant that he was
wrong and I was right.
2020 comes around.
Still very adamant about myfeelings, you know, still very

(07:00):
adamant about my feelings.
You know, everything withGeorge Floyd and Breonna Taylor
happened.
A lot of stuff was veryemotionally heightened in 2020.
To the point where I don't knowif you remember, but that was
like a night where you went tobed not knowing who was

(07:23):
president.
Yeah, I remember that.
And the next morning, Iremember going into Tony's
office and being like, oh mygosh, if Trump gets Trump hates,
hates, black and brown peopleIf he gets elected, we're gonna
have to move.
We're gonna have to move.
I'm gonna have, like you know,panicking, all of that.

(07:45):
That time is also when we hadKai with us.
So I felt like, oh my gosh, Ijust brought this child, you
know, from the Marshall Islandsto America and we're going to
have to move.
We're going to have, you know,very panicked, afraid, very
afraid, very terrified, veryemotionally charged, very, very,
very dysregulated, fast forward, closed my business in 2021.

(08:08):
And also, at that time, very,very, very vocal about my
beliefs and very Argumentative,argumentative and hateful
towards the people who didn'tvote the way that I voted and
who, um had different opinionsand perspectives than me.

(08:30):
Um, so then, close my business2021, you and I, you know we've
told the story so many times.
You and I connect.
You tell me about your mushroomjourney.
With you and with Jason, I do amushroom journey.
That was something that reallychanged the game for me, which,

(08:55):
if you've been a listener, youknow that, and it changed the
game for me because I wassomebody who always thought in
very black and white and I thinkthat is a trauma response,
right.

Leah (09:12):
It's not considered a healthy mindset.

Christine (09:16):
Correct, correct, but I think it is a protective
mechanism Absolutely so I get it, I get it, I've been there.
Mechanism Absolutely so I getit, I get it, I've been there.
But when I did that firstjourney, tony watched me change
within the course of a yearbefore he decided to do a
journey of his own.
During that course andobviously it has continued on he

(09:40):
watched me become a lot moregray in life.

Leah (09:46):
I would like to use the word colorful.

Christine (09:49):
Yes, yes.
So specific examples unrelatedto politics.
I was somebody who hated my dad.
I absolutely despised my dadbecause he was an addict.
He did this, he wasn't there, Ididn't have a present father

(10:10):
figure and also, in turn, Ihated men.
I may have dated men, but Ihated men.
You put a drink in me, oh, thismouth was a going with a man
and she was fighting.
She was picking a fight with aman.
Men ain't shit.
Yeah, yeah, oh, I wouldactually like pick fights with

(10:33):
men, like be like you want tofight, and they'd be like no, I
just asked you for your number.
That's how black and white mythinking is.
Was after psychedelics, Istarted to be like Hmm.

(10:53):
Yes, my father was wounded.
Yes, he struggled withaddiction.
Yes, he wasn't present in mylife.
But holding onto this hatereally hasn't really served me
any type of purpose.
And because I've had this hate,I have this wonderful, safe man
in my life who I have had areally hard time letting my

(11:17):
guard down, because I have hadthis conditioned in me that men
are bad and I started to open upto that.
Then I also started to open up.
Open up to the fact that, wow,you came in hot in a lot of
situations and you came in veryblack and white and you

(11:42):
automatically assumed you mayhave had good intentions but you
automatically assumed that youwere right and where your heart
was was the way to be and otherpeople were bad.
But they might've just had adifferent perspective or they

(12:03):
might've just grown updifferently, or they might have
just been taught differentvalues than what you were taught
and maybe you weren't as rightas what you think you were,
Maybe you weren't necessarilywrong, but maybe this was just a
lot more complex and had morenuance than what you originally

(12:25):
thought and that kind of openedand fucked my world up.
It's a mindfuck.
It is a mindfuck.
And there are a lot moreexamples besides that.

Leah (12:38):
Well, you and I have always said this about coming
out of our first mushroomjourneys is we started to see
things for what?
For the way they were, andmaybe not necessarily for the
way that we had conditioned tobelieve that they were and this
is like in every area of life.
This is in relationships, infriendships, in business.

(12:59):
In just the way we saw theworld was very different.

Christine (13:02):
Yes, yes, and I grew up with a mother who is very
feminist, I think, has had a lotof trust issues with men, and I
think that unconsciously thisis not to talk bad, but
unconsciously it got projectedonto me and I took that as my

(13:25):
own.
And with plant medicine, Istarted to show up in the world,
maybe more authentically, andtry to figure out my own ideas.
Um and so, before November, Iwas scared to talk to you about

(13:49):
some things.
We never talked politics.
We never, ever talked politics.
But I was also able to take astep back and be like wow, in
2016 and 2020, I was veryemotionally charged.
I, in those years, was at someof the lowest points in my life

(14:13):
in regards to my mental health.
Those were periods of timewhere, again, I've stated that I
struggled with a lot of anxiety, depression, panic attacks,
physical health issues becauseof how much stress I felt with

(14:33):
the weight of the world.
So I had reached out.
I don't.
Do you remember how theconversation started?

Leah (14:47):
No, but I kind of I want to add a little bit more to that
because I think even in ourpodcast we were going in this
direction without realizing itwe were talking about.
We have said that we don'tnecessarily agree with um big
pharma and SSRI use and we thinkthey do more harm than good,

(15:09):
and we have talked about thisopenly.
We have talked about findingthe root problems instead of
treating the symptoms.
We have talked to holisticpractitioners more than once and
learned more things about ourbody.
We have learned how to be inour body through somatics.
We have been basicallypracticing.

Christine (15:31):
What we're about to talk about.

Leah (15:32):
What we're about to talk about, and I think you came
across an interview Can I say itnow, yeah With RFK Um, and you
sent it to me and I and I thinkthat that kind of started

(15:59):
because I listened to thatinterview and I was like hold up
, this isn't.
I didn't.
Okay, this man is verydifferent than what I thought he
was Like.
I thought he was a wacko, Ithought he was crazy, I thought
he was a conspiracy theorist andI'm going to be honest, like
I've been a little bit of aconspiracy theorist for the past
couple of years.
So like nothing he said waslike too out there for me, but

(16:26):
most of what he said was beingtaken out of context and
regurgitated, and so Iimmediately was like nope, this
man's a quack, I don't like him.
And you sent me a podcast andyou said you should listen to
this.
I listened to it, I sent it tomy husband.

(16:48):
He said the same thing.
He was like dude, I thoughtthis guy was like fucking crazy
off his rocker and I actuallyreally like him.
I feel like I should also saythis was before he ever
announced that he was runningfor president.
This was a year before heannounced that he was running
for president, this was a yearbefore he announced that he was

(17:10):
running for president, soneither one of us were listening
to this man thinking that hewas ever going to run for
president, yes, but we werealigned with a lot of what he
said, not everything, and I feellike that needs to be said.

Christine (17:26):
I feel like that is going to need to be said
throughout A hundred percent.

Leah (17:32):
Because I also feel like it needs to be said that if
you've made it this far intothis episode and you're making
assumptions, you're probablywrong too.

Christine (17:42):
And also you're probably missing the point.
Yes, so I got to a point whereI had to realize, in 2016, 2020,
and also just a lot of my lifewith politics and outside of

(18:02):
politics, I repeated a lot ofinformation that was
regurgitated to me.
I don't think social media hashelped that, and so if I was on
the left and somebody was sayingthat someone is bad, I believed
it, not saying that that waswrong.
But I went into this state ofmy life where I said, even if I

(18:27):
don't like somebody,specifically Trump, I am going
to listen to everyone.
I'm not going to watch the news, I'm not just going to find a
clip on social media.
I'm not just going to find aheadline article and be like, oh
, that's it going to find aheadline article and be like, oh

(18:47):
, that's it.
I want to watch people in full,what they say, even if I don't
like them, even if I don'tconsider myself on that side,
because I wanted to form my ownauthentic opinion and that's
okay.

Leah (19:02):
Let me also reiterate that at the time, he was a Democrat.

Christine (19:07):
Yes.

Leah (19:08):
So it didn't feel too far off that we were listening to
what this man had to say.

Christine (19:14):
A hundred percent.

Leah (19:16):
He is anti big pharma.
He was very into holistichealing.
He was an advocate forpsychedelics.

Christine (19:27):
There's also a lot of stuff where people say he's
anti-vax and I could notdisagree with.
You.
Forgot about that part where weare so, so quick to label
people and I think it is a verydangerous territory that we are

(19:53):
walking down.
Because I think it's okay,especially after the world of
COVID and what we know now it isokay to question something,
specifically a multi-trilliondollar industry, their motives,

(20:13):
their intentions, where themoney's coming from, what the
money's going towards.
Yes, I think we can allcollectively agree that we've
all questioned that and againjust because someone questions,
it doesn't mean that they areanti it.
That's very black and white.

(20:34):
It's very, very black and whitethinking um, so what was he?

Leah (20:38):
if you want to explain it, what was rfk?
He wasn't anti-vax, I know hewasn't, but like what would you
explain to people when he saidthat?
When people said that?

Christine (20:48):
I would say that he has a lot of questions and
concerns, and I think he's alsostated that he wants people to
be informed.
Yes, he wants vaccine companiesto be liable if there is a
vaccine industry, and he wantspeople to be able to make a

(21:10):
choice.
And I think sometimes, when ithas come to medical topics,
there are a lot of people whofeel bullied into doing things
to go along with the masses orthe mob.
And specifically, what I amtalking about is COVID.

(21:33):
So we both have a mutual friend.
I'm just going to go ahead andsay her name Laura.
When I was very Democratic.
Hi, laura.
When I was very Democratic, hiLaura.
I give her so much kudos becauseshe has somebody who has always
been independent and she hassomebody who has always

(21:53):
questioned the status quo andquestioned what the masses
normalize, and whether you thinkshe's right or wrong, quite
frankly, is irrelevant.
I appreciate that she stands inher individual self with what

(22:14):
she believes, and she was thefirst person that I knew who was
very vocal about not trustingthe COVID vaccine, about not
trusting the COVID vaccine andnot feeling like it was okay to
mandate the entire country toget a vaccine, and I cannot
stress this enough, whether youthink she's right or wrong,

(22:38):
isn't the point.
She used her autonomy and usedher voice that was very
unpopular at that time and stoodon it 10 toes, fucking down to
the point where I didn't findthis out until literally this
summer.
Um that, and I told her at thattime that I disagreed with her

(23:05):
and she was like, okay, cool,yeah, you can disagree with me,
I'm not saying this, so youagree with me.
I'm saying this is just what Ibelieve and that's okay, and I
didn't understand it at the time.
And now I have since apologizedand also have told her how

(23:26):
courageous I think she is,because that is not an easy
place to be in the world ofsocial media, where you are not
going with what's popular.

Leah (23:35):
You're going against the grain, against the status quo.
You're speaking on things thatpeople have been canceled for
speaking on.
Lost their jobs Right.
So like You're right, it theirjobs Right.
So like You're right, it's avery brave thing to do.

Christine (23:48):
I am now somebody who like kudos to a bitch that
doesn't give a fuck, you know,because I have a lot of respect
for that.

Leah (23:57):
And she wasn't angry?

Christine (23:59):
No, she wasn't like a , she was very grounded and
holding her position very strong, and she ended up being right
about a lot of it.
Let me be very clear on that.
I think there was a lot ofinformation we didn't know.
A lot of us felt pressure to dosomething and it didn't end up
working out in the way that Ithought it would Right and
that's okay to say Working outin the way that I thought it

(24:21):
would Right and that's okay tosay.
I found out this summer,specifically at my wedding, that
when she was posting thosethings, a mutual friend of ours

(24:42):
reached out to her to tell herhow much she disagreed with her.
I don't know if she had thesepeople do it or she didn't, but
then about 10 of her friends,who Laura didn't know wasn't
friends with, then messagedLaura to let her know that
pretty much she's a piece ofshit.
She was responsible for killingsomeone's grandma.

(25:04):
They hoped that, um, her andher entire family got covid and
people she didn't know.
Yes, yes, people she did notknow they were friends of our
mutual friend and whatever, andI was was like you know, I heard
that this summer.
I was like that is actually sofucked up, like it is so fucked

(25:29):
up.
Um, I think we've gotten tothis place where we are quick to
judge somebody who thinksdifferently than us, when it
could be an opportunity to havea conversation.
Still leave the conversationand disagree on things, but
maybe agree on some things andhopefully at minimum come to a

(25:52):
middle ground on some things,right, and I think that that's
okay and that's kind of where Iwant to go with this episode
today.
And so, kind of you know, backto my post.
And so, kind of you know, backto my post.

(26:12):
I spoke about a party that Ihave belonged to ever since I
could vote and I think I am wellwithin my right to voice
questions and concerns aboutthat party, and I think I'm well
within my right to say I don'tlike where this is going.

(26:33):
A lot of the responses that Igot was what a piece of shit I
am and okay, so now you're aTrumper and now you're MAGA and
you're now a Republican.
Let me say for the record, Ihave never spoken about Trump
except for negative thingspublicly.

Leah (26:55):
Right.

Christine (26:56):
That's one.
Two I think I'm allowed tovoice my own opinion about a
party that I belong to.
Three, I think we all should beable to not just say have this

(27:16):
us versus them mentality and beable to acknowledge the things
in our party that we don't like.
And I think we've gotten tothis place where we are good and
they or that or them is evil.

Leah (27:37):
It's a very us versus them .

Christine (27:40):
Yes, and so it became okay.
So you're not with us anymore.
You're against us, you areagainst us.

Leah (27:49):
Isn't that like a quote, like if you're not with us,
you're against us?

Christine (27:52):
Yes, yes, yes, and it's again.
I never said anything aboutTrump or being a Republican, but
that is just what people wereso quick to label me as.
But that is just what peoplewere so quick to label me as.
What they don't understand is,the more grounded that I have
become, the more mushroomjourneys that I have done, the

(28:21):
more the message has continuedto reiterate that your ancestors
didn't get to talk.
You do get to talk.
Stand on business.
You can stand on business in akind way, but stand in your
truth.
It doesn't have to be popular.
That's not what you're meant todo.
You're meant to speak, andthose that will resonate with

(28:44):
you will come.
Those that will resonate withyou will come, and um, so those
conversations just lit me upmore.

Leah (29:00):
You're like, oh shit, this needs to be done more than I
realized.
Yeah, this is a needed space, Ithink, especially because
you've got so much positivefeedback in those conversations.
You're like, holy shit, morepeople feel this way than are
speaking.
They're afraid to speak out Ahundred percent.

Christine (29:11):
I was like, holy shit , so many people are messaging
me saying thank you for sayingthis.
I've thought this and I've beentoo scared to say it, and so to
me, I'm like that's a problemand I'm not scared to say it, so
I'm going to go ahead andcontinue to say it, but we took
a break.
So I'm like but how am I goingto say it, how am I going to

(29:33):
talk about this and how am Igoing to stand firm in what I
believe and what my values are,be open to changing my mind and
changing my perspective, and tryto speak with kindness, while
also trying to find truth, and Ithink we have become a place

(29:54):
where we want to be on a sideand sometimes we don't want to
hear the truth, and I don't likewhere that has gone, and so I
do want to talk about it.
The other thing I want to say,too, is, in 2016 and 2020, a lot
of my Marshallese familymembers spoke out about their

(30:19):
support of Trump, and I foughtwith them.

Leah (30:23):
Oh, they were in support.
Yes, ok.

Christine (30:24):
Oh, they were in support, yes, okay.
And I was like how can you beMarshallese and you think this
way?
Because that party is racist,that party, like you know, you
are supporting a politician in aparty that is racist and I was

(30:46):
not grounded in thoseconversations, I was angry.
Now, seeing it from a differentlens, I've realized that and
I've gotten this just becausesomebody is brown or black
doesn't mean that they have tovote or all think the same, and

(31:09):
it's something that has really,really, really bothered me to my
core.
Just because we want diversitydoesn't mean that we should shun
viewpoint diversity and itdoesn't mean that, because of
the color of our skin, that weall think the same and we all

(31:32):
vote the same.
And I've had to really learnthat we all vote all over the
place and we should be allowedto do that.
And I was called a racist byand I said this, I did a

(31:54):
follow-up post specificallywhite liberal women, and I have
had a very hard time with thatbecause I come from poverty.

(32:15):
I come from a different country,a third world country.
I come from a home where Ididn't even have like glass on
the windows of our home.
We don't even have like glasson the windows of our home and I

(32:51):
come from.
The only reason why Marshallesepeople are not to move to the
US indefinitely without a visabecause of the nuclear testing
that happened on our island inthe 40s and the 50s.
It went on for 12 years.
The US used us as humanexperiments of what high levels
of radiation would do to people.
It's what the show SpongeBobSquarePants is based on.

(33:15):
It's the mutated sea life inBikini Atoll, which is an actual
atoll in the Marshall Islands.
It's where the term bikini camefrom is from the Marshall
Islands.
It's also where Godzilla comesfrom.
That's why he's mutated.
So this is a very sensitivetopic and it has felt incredibly

(33:42):
frustrating to get shut downfrom people I know, people I
don't know, who I know didn'thave experiences with racism,
didn't have experiences withcoming from poverty, coming from
a different country, having tolearn English, having to learn a

(34:08):
new way of life and a new wayof living and that culture shock
, calling me a racist.
That's rich and it did make mefeel very angry.
And so I did have to take abreak, because there's one

(34:32):
person in particular who I havebeen friends with her for a
decade, advocated for her indifferent situations because
that's just kind of.
I'm very ride or die in a lotof situations and have, um
fought a lot of people's battleswhich maybe I've now realized

(34:53):
they weren't necessarily mine tofight.
Um, that somebody like that, whoknows me, knows my heart, knows
the work that I've done onmyself, isn't able, isn't even
able to give me a sit-downconversation that I've wanted,
because now I am no longer onher side.

(35:15):
And to add to that, someone Idon't know who is her friend
verbally attacked me, and thatwas okay and justified because
that person was on her side,right.
And so now it was like I knowthis person but nope, now I'm

(35:38):
not going to talk to her anymore.
None of my friends are going totalk to her, none like anything
, because now she's that Like,the mob is going to come after
you.
100 to which you know, bring iton like it's, and I'm not saying
that in like I'm gonna combatyou, but like, if you want to

(35:59):
debate I'll debate, but that'swhy I think, like the people who
message you and said thank youfor saying that that's what
they're afraid of, a hundredpercent.
Including myself?
Yeah, no, and I get it.

Leah (36:10):
I totally get it.
You have to be a very strongperson.
Not only that, but I think youhave to be incredibly grounded
and 10 toes down in your valuesand your morals to know that, no
matter what people think aboutyou, I know who I am, you know
who you are Right and they.
You are Right and they're wrong.
Right, right.

Christine (36:34):
And also the woman who adopted Marshallese children
.
I messaged her because sheblocked me and I said I hope
that you raise these boys where,just because the color of their
skin, you are not expectingthem to be exactly like you, and

(37:01):
you embrace them to maybe havea different perspective and
different opinions and maybe youcould learn something from
those different perspectives oropinions.
And you might be wrong, notsaying that, you're not saying
that, I'm right, but I thinkpeople need to be more committed
to the fact that they might bewrong and that's okay and that a

(37:27):
lot of these issues are verycomplex, and I was wrong about a
lot of things.

Leah (37:33):
Same A lot of things.

Christine (37:35):
Same same and I've also like I thought I was right,
right, and I've also gone onand apologize and been like I
thought I was like so right andI I wasn't, and I was so adamant
that I was so right that Imight not have married my
husband because I was so adamantthat I was right and he was
wrong, you know, and and like alot of those interactions were

(38:00):
people pushed back against me.
I actually really appreciatethat because I don't think it
was easy to push back against meat that time and I know I'm a
strong-willed person.
I understand that.
The thing that I have struggledwith is I have really wanted
debate and I've really wanteddialogue, and the people who

(38:22):
have labeled me not been open toconversation, those have been
the people where I have not beenable to have conversation with
and I hate that and it's reallybothered me and so I'm really
grateful that we are getting tosit here and have that dialogue

(38:43):
and be able to say, hey, in thismoment I wasn't right, and
that's okay to say, and that'sokay to like change your way of
thinking.
That's okay to change your mind, it's okay to evolve, it's okay
to agree with some things andagree and disagree with some
others, like um and I.
I, I guess I would just want tonormalize that and, um, I don't

(39:06):
know what date we're going torelease this.
Last week, charlie kirk gotassassinated, yes, and I want to
go into that a little bit.
Um, do you want to addsomething?

Leah (39:17):
I kind of wanted to add um , like, um, how we ended up on
the same page with all of this.
Oh, yeah, yeah, and so I don'twant to go too much into it.
But like I kind of want to addto that that um, similar story
with me, like starting toquestion the narrative.

(39:38):
Um, I think I was still veryliberal in my head, very
democratic in my beliefs whichwhat does that even fucking mean
?
Like my beliefs are still thesame, like none of that has
changed, maybe.
Like my information has changedand my opinion has changed, but
I still stand very firm in mycore values and my morals.

(40:02):
Um, but I was very one-sidedand when you sent me the RFK
stuff and we started listeningto him again, I said at the time
, like he was still a Democrat.
Um, and whenever I also want tosay, like we also found Callie
and Casey means oh, yeah.

(40:24):
I started reading their bookgood energy.
Oh, yeah, I started readingtheir book good energy.
Um, it's just about like thethings that we do as a society
that like harm our bodies andour brains, and like eating
whole foods and like exercisingand doing all of these things
that are good.
Literally everything that waslike in line with what we talked

(40:44):
about on the podcast.
Okay, so that was like in linewith what we talked about on the
podcast.
Okay, so I have always beenlike, yeah, the news lies.
I stopped watching the newsafter COVID, but you would still
see things on Instagram, andthis is when I started to
question everything, like whatyou were saying earlier.
I would see a meme or aheadline.
I'd be like what?
I don't remember who said this,but like somebody somewhere out
there has said I don't watchthe news If it's important

(41:05):
enough.
I'd be like what?
I don't remember who said this,but like somebody somewhere out
there has said I don't watchthe news.
If it's important enough, I'll.
It'll show up and that's kindof how I felt.
I'm not going to watch the news,but if something relevant is
happening in the world, ifsomething's going on, I'll find
out about it.
I have clients who talk aboutthis.
I have social media.
It's going to come across mypage eventually and then I'll do

(41:32):
my own research and I'll do mydue diligence and I'll figure
out, like what the truth of itis.
I also am kind of curious about, like what this news station is
saying about it versus whatthis news station is saying
about it, because a lot of timesthey were so vastly different
that it's kind of like nofucking wonder we're fighting
about this, because you all aregetting two very different

(41:54):
stories Right, because when Ifound this, that's not the story
that I got at all.

Christine (41:59):
Like.

Leah (42:00):
I feel like what I was getting was like a little bit
more of the truth than this newsstation in this news station.

Christine (42:08):
And you know, like, take out politics, but you know
when they say, all right, youtalk to this person and you talk
to this person and they havetwo totally different stories
and the truth lies in the middle.

Leah (42:17):
Yes, yes, there's their truth.
There's their truth, and thenthere's the truth in the middle.

Christine (42:23):
I think we seem to forget about that in politics,
though.
100%.

Leah (42:27):
Yes, we have gotten way too into like no, I'm right,
you're wrong.
Right, you're wrong 100%,because I'm a good person, so I
know that what I think is good.

Christine (42:38):
Right, right.

Leah (42:41):
So that must mean you're bad.

Christine (42:42):
Right.

Leah (42:43):
Which is literally a term called splitting, and people
with, like um, borderlinepersonality disorder do this.
People with narcissisticpersonality disorder do this.
Um, splitting is where you it's.
It's you're either all good orall bad.
It's very black and whitethinking.

(43:04):
There is no room for middleground.
There's no room for gray orcolor.
Um, it's, you did this thingand it hurt me, so now you're
bad.

Christine (43:14):
Yep.

Leah (43:15):
And there's no coming back from that with someone with a
personality disorder.
You are, you're bad.
That's not healthy.
Yeah, we all.
No one is inherently good orinherently bad.
We're all.
All of it, right, all of it.
So when we started to listen toRFK and he announced that he

(43:36):
was running for president, um, Istarted to see even more the
narrative going against him.
I saw his own party push himout.
That's why he ran as anindependent, because the
democratic party didn't welcomehim, um, and at the time,

(43:57):
neither did the Republican party.
So he re I'd never votedindependent.
I, if you ask me, who did yousay?
Tony voted for Gary.

Christine (44:05):
Johnson.

Leah (44:06):
Never heard of him.
I think a lot of people and Inoticed this because I was like
no, I'm gonna vote RFK.
I think he can make adifference.
I think I align with him inmore ways and I align with
either side of the party in thiselection.
I'm voting RFK.
And the amount of people whoare like you never vote
independent.
You can't vote independent youcan't vote independent.

(44:28):
You can't vote independentbecause that doesn't do anything
and I'm like then what's thefucking point of having it?
Because I, in my opinion, ifenough people do that, why are
we telling people not to voteindependent?
Yeah and let, because it swaysthe vote because it swings the
vote one way or the other.
So I was very like this is whoI'm voting for, um, and then he

(44:50):
pulled his candidacy, he pulledout of the race.

Christine (44:57):
We're smart.
We're not that smart.

Leah (45:00):
He pulled out of the race and he went with Trump.
So callie and casey means sodid tulsi gabbard so did tulsi
gabbard, somebody else who waslike pushed out of the
democratic party, someone who isnot the normal democratic well,

(45:23):
very, very Not the normalRepublican Party and a minority,
and a minority Served in thearmy.
Yeah, democrats used to fuckinglove her, so it just.

Christine (45:36):
Democrats used to also be the party of anti-Big
Pharma, anti-large corporationand anti-elite, and now it's
become the party of the elites,the party of big pharma, the
party of large corporations.

Leah (45:52):
It also used to be the party of diversity, and what we
have continued to see over andover and over again is as long
as it's not diversity of thought, you have to agree with
everything.
Don't push back on anything,don't question anything.
Everything.
Don't push back on anything.
Don't question anything.
If you question it, you're partof the bad side, so I struggled

(46:14):
when I really did.
I shut down because I was like,what the fuck am I supposed to
do?
Because if I don't, if I voteindependent, you're going to get
in trouble.
People will never understandwhere I'm coming from, because
they won't even let me speak onthis.
Because I'm first off, I'mscared to speak on it.

(46:34):
But like I dabbled my toes,well, I want to.
I want to post that because Iwas already noticing how much
the narrative started to shift,how many things were taken out
of context, how things that hesaid was taken out of context
when I listened to the entireinterview and I was like hold up

(46:55):
, he didn't say that.
That's not what he said.
Why are they running with thatnarrative?
Can I say a?

Christine (47:00):
specific example.
Yeah, there is somebody in myfamily who's incredibly liberal.
There is somebody in my familywho's incredibly liberal and no
matter who's running, no matterwhat they stand for, she is
always going to be that way andit's on both sides.

Leah (47:22):
I want to be very clear on that.

Christine (47:23):
I feel like we need to reiterate that, yes, yes,
there is extremism on both sidesand we'll get to that.

Leah (47:27):
We need to reiterate that.
Yes, yes, there is extremism onboth sides and we'll get to
that.
We'll get to that.

Christine (47:32):
So she came to me and I said we started she and again
, I've also learned a lot ofthese people bring it up, but
then I feel like I'm not allowedto say something.
Yeah, she brought it to you.
She brought it to me and saidyou know, rfk is a quack.
He says, um, that the waterturns people trans.

Leah (47:58):
Someone in my family said that.

Christine (48:00):
And I go.
Is that what he actually said?
She goes, she pulls it up, shegoes yep, see, here's a quote
and I go.
You want to know what's funny?
I actually know what he saidbecause I actually listened to
him.
And we have become a world ofwe find a quote or we find a

(48:22):
clip and then we run with itinstead of listening to the
entire conversation.

Leah (48:27):
Here's the scary part about that, though there have
been multiple situations and Ithink we wrote one of them down
to talk about later where I haveread an article that has quoted
someone, and that article isn'twrong, but it's missing the
context.
It is a direct quote, but it'smissing the context of what was

(48:49):
said.
It's missing the question thatwas asked that led to that quote
, and I have listened to thefull context, the full interview
, of where that person said that, and reading it on paper is a
very different understanding.
Yes, because you can absolutelysee how that would be taken out

(49:11):
of context.
Right, you're like, listen, hedid say that, but let me tell
you what he meant, and not justbecause I'm like paraphrasing or
like because I think this iswhat he meant, but like, let me
tell you what was said in thatepisode and how that quote came
to be.

Christine (49:27):
Yes.

Leah (49:29):
Yes, this is happening right now with a lot of things.

Christine (49:33):
Yes, it's happening so often.
And again, there is animportance of, I think, being
able to listen to somebody andfeel uncomfortable with what
they have to say and also beable to not agree with it, but
still stay grounded and maybehear what they have to say, and
also be able to not agree withit, but still stay grounded and
maybe hear what they have to say.
So then, if you're going toshare information, you are

(49:54):
sharing it correctly.
So she said well, he said thatwater, the water, you know, the
water makes people trans, peopletrans.
And I said no, and I said no.

Leah (50:15):
What he said was that there is something in the water
that is making frogs changetheir sex, and it should be
looked into.
And it should be looked into.
We should be wondering whythat's happening.

Christine (50:24):
Yes, he is very pro yes, and if you say that, if you
have stated that you agree with, some of his stances are also
pro curiosity, you areautomatically labeled anti-vax,
a quack, a conspiracy,conspiracy transph and somebody

(50:48):
who is anti-science.
Those are all things that havebeen said.

Leah (50:53):
He is literally an environmental lawyer.
He did this for decades and wonseveral civil action lawsuits,
like several huge, huge casesagainst very big corporations,
against very big corporations.
I have someone in my family whois trans and they said this and

(51:15):
it came up in conversation Likehe's transphobic and he thinks
that, you know, trans people areit's because of the water and
it is so incredibly hard to havea rational conversation with
them because they're so fearfuland scared and don't want to

(51:36):
give him the time of day.
And that's kind of where youknow, I didn't push back on this
, but my husband did, because hewas like why don't you listen
to it, jason?

Christine (51:44):
why are?

Leah (51:44):
similar.
You guys are very similar.
He will push back and and I'vealways admired him for that like
he is very good with his wordsand he's careful with his words
and he's also he used to be veryangry and now he's like not as
angry with his words, but likehe's very well spoken and very
intelligent very intelligentalso used to be very anti-trump

(52:06):
and very liberal come used to bevery anti-Trump, very liberal,
and has come Used to be veryliberal To the middle Same.
So this shift started happeningwith him and I in the same way,
and I am very thankful for that.
Even though that shift startedhappening, we still didn't talk
about it, you and I still didn'ttalk politics.
It was very difficult, but Istarted listening to both sides.

(52:28):
I started listening to Trump,which we can both agree Painful,
it is hard to listen.
Painful, I don't.
I still don't like the man.
I will say that right now.
He's.

Christine (52:40):
And he's very, he's very callous with how he talks.
He's very, I think he's funny.
Yeah, with how he talks, he'svery I think he's funny.
Yeah, I think when you take thetrigger out of it.
It's like you're like, oh mygosh, this man.

Leah (52:55):
What an idiot.
Yeah, what an idiot.
Why would he say?
He knows that people are goingto take that out of context?
A hundred percent.
I'm not praising him by anymeans, but like when I started
actually listening to his fullinterviews, like the interview
we sat through, I was like God,this is so hard to listen to,
but I'm at least going to givehim like I'm going to give him a

(53:15):
chance, right.
Um, the same way I did RFK, I'mgoing to listen to this guy, I'm
going to listen to these people, I'm going to listen to these
people that I never, ever, ever,in a million years would have
listened to and I'm.
What I took away from that waslike I'm learning a different
perspective.
I am coming out of thosesituations feeling a little bit

(53:37):
of, um, confusion, because I'mlike, wait a minute, what they
said kind of makes sense, and Idon't know how I feel about that
, because I've always thoughtthis way and if I think that way
, then that means that I'm oneof them.
It took me a while to realizethat that wasn't the case.
I struggled with that.
I was like if I don't voteDemocrat, does that make me

(53:59):
Republican?
I really did.

Christine (54:01):
Yeah.

Leah (54:02):
I want to read what I wrote Because clearly, after the
election, a lot of things gotheated.
Where'd my glasses go?
Oh wow, you're really showingyour Listen.
This happens like, oh no,they're on your head, ok.

(54:22):
So this is something that I justI noticed about both sides
because, again, when you don'ttake a side and you are just
like sitting on the fence in themiddle watching both sides
react and at this point myalgorithm was no longer
political, I was seeing bothsides of everything.
I was no longer in, like thisecho chamber of everybody that

(54:45):
agrees with me and aligns withme is what's showing up on my
for you page?
My for you page was all overthe fucking place and I saw it
on both sides.
So this was my observation andI hope that by saying this,
people will will hear that, likethere is a middle ground.

(55:06):
The left and the right havealways had their extremes, but
what seems different now is thatthe left, which traditionally
championed inclusivity andtolerance, has developed a more
rigid ideological purity test.
In the past, there was moreroom for nuance and debate
within the left, but today, ifyou're not fully aligned with

(55:27):
the most extreme viewpoints,you're often that's a word we're
going to use a lot.
Yes, if you made it this far,that's the word of the day.
Yeah, politically homeless.

(55:49):
I've just been sitting silentlyobserving over the past few
months, and this is what I'venoticed Women, or those more
connected to the feminine, seemto express more anger and
emotional intensity around thisoutcome, and I believe it could
have a lot to do with the waythat feminine energy, when

(56:09):
unhealed, manifests in pain andprotection mode.
The wounded feminine oftenoperates from a place of deep
fear, betrayal and a desire tonurture through control.
When people feel powerless,they cling to righteous anger
because it gives them a sense ofagency, and for many women,

(56:30):
politics is deeply personal.
It's about bodily autonomy,safety and justice, so the
stakes feel higher in a way thatmight not register.
The same for men who, in anunhealed masculine state, tend
to detach, repress orintellectualize conflict instead
of diving into emotionalexpression.
On the other hand, the farright embodies the wounded

(56:55):
masculine, and I think, before Igo any further, I need to say
this was about both sides.
What was that Okay?
On the other hand, the farright embodies the wounded
masculine, which is controlthrough domination, rigidity and
suppression of emotion.

(57:15):
The far left and the far right,almost act as mirrors to each
other, but with differentexpressions of trauma.
Both extremes are acting fromdeep wounds, which is why
conversations feel impossible.
Neither side is engaging from aplace of wholeness or love or
desire to understand the other.

(57:36):
If you feel like an outsider,you're in a unique position
because you're choosing neitherextreme, which means you're not
seeking validation from onewounded ideology or the other.
This makes you a threat tothose who need their side to be
the right side, to feel safe.
The anger towards you isn'tabout you.

(57:57):
It's about their need forcertainty, and your refusal to
play into the dichotomy disruptsthat certainty.
The way forward isn't easy, butit's through people like you,

(58:18):
those who can see the biggerpicture, hold nuance and
recognize that healing.
So this was speaking to thepeople who, I think, felt a lot
like us politically homeless.
We didn't align with one sideor the other.
We felt like outcasts.
We felt like we couldn't speakbecause we were in the middle of
like political crossfires.

Christine (58:38):
Felt like there couldn't even be conversation to
explain why we felt the waythat we felt, or why we felt in
the middle, or we couldn't saywhy we didn't align with this
side in depth and and and sharelike our experience with that,
or why we didn't align with thisside, or you know, whatever

(58:59):
that's was so well written.

Leah (59:02):
Well, the comment section is where it got, and I was like
and I'm taking a step back I wascriticizing both sides, but
people didn't see it that way,did they?
It's not just that peopledidn't see it that way, I was
hit more from one side than theother.
I was called a racist, I wascalled a bigot, I was called a

(59:25):
fascist because I wascriticizing the people on the
left.
And I started to get defensive.
And people in my commentsection started to get defensive
, defending me because I waslike hold up, I criticized the
right too.
I criticized both, both sides.
Right, if you can't handle thecriticism of your party, that's,

(59:50):
that's a problem.
Well, and I think.
But it's also what kind ofpushed me back into my shell of
like, all right, I can't evenhave a middle ground in this,
yeah, and it feels unsafe totalk about it, and it feels
unsafe to speak on my ownpersonal experiences.

(01:00:12):
I can't speak on Right, whichseems insane.

Christine (01:00:15):
Right To say out loud , and I think that is kind of
where I think this conversationis important and I hope we are
able to have more conversationswith our listeners who may
relate to this, because it hasbecome impossible to even just
be in the middle without beingattacked.

(01:00:37):
And I think you know where wehave gone wrong is we are very
loyal to a movement, to a partyto a side, to a movement to a
party to a side, and when amovement overtakes loyalty to
your friends, your neighbors,the people who you could be
having conversations, with.

(01:01:02):
I think that a lot of harm hascome with that and we're seeing
that, and so hopefully again,this opens some doors to have

(01:01:31):
conversation and be able to holdspace for each other, because
that is where, for me, that iswhere I've gotten kind of the
most hate and the mostintolerance and I have really
struggled with like yes, blackand brown voices, talk, talk, we
need you.
And then it's like, oh, youdidn't say something that fit
the narrative of the day, you'reout.
So we want black and brownvoices, just not yours, yours
doesn't count, yours doesn'tcount, and I don't like that.

(01:01:53):
And again I want to reiteratewe should be encouraging
viewpoint diversity and weshould even be encouraging bad
ideas and being able to hear badideas.
Let's talk about it Right,because it's like I thought I

(01:02:14):
knew what a bad idea was andthen I was like, oh, it actually
wasn't a bad idea and Iactually kind of hated might
have not been as right as what Ithought I was, but um, but yeah
, I, I um.
Last week, charlie kirk both ofus accidentally um sought the

(01:02:44):
assassination I thought it wasai.
I didn't think it was real yeah,and I think, um, a lot of
people share that experience and, um, I don't care what side
you're on, I don't like you.

(01:03:06):
I think that when we have tostart with that, I think we're
kind of dehumanizing people andI've seen that a lot where it's
like, oh well, I didn't like him, but I'm like we just saw
somebody, as in between my youknow, food videos and memes saw

(01:03:31):
somebody get murdered on mysocial media and I don't think
that we've realized that.
That's like a trauma that we'veall experienced.
And I think to for it to be theday before 9-11,.
Leah and I met on 9-11 and wewere talking about how, like

(01:03:56):
when.
I I remember where I was when9-11 happened.
Specifically, I was in scienceclass and they rolled the TV in
and we were all watchingstudents faculty in horror at
what was happening.
The difference is that was atime where, one, we didn't have

(01:04:18):
social media, but two, it was atime of, even though something
so horrific happened, youwatched the country come
together and unite.
Where now it is, we are justtearing each other apart.
It's so divided and it's wildto watch in real time, and it

(01:04:42):
has been honestly frightening towatch people celebrate it.
People say, well, he said this,this and this and this,
insinuating that he deserved itbecause he, like you, disagreed

(01:05:06):
with him on everything or somethings it's.
It has felt Disheartening tosee people you know post things
like that and, where we havegone, that we would justify the

(01:05:28):
murdering of somebody because wedidn't like who they were, what
they said, and I've seen a lotof rhetoric, of which, by the
way, it's been taken out ofcontext because I cannot stress
this enough they didn't watchthe full interview.
I didn't agree with everythingCharlie Kirk said, but he's well

(01:05:50):
, he's racist, he's for guns.
So essentially, he, you know hewanted this and I thought about
that because I was like youknow, I had this experience.
I moved to a new school in thefifth grade, so I was 10 years
old.
So I was 10 years old and therewas a girl in my class and her

(01:06:15):
mom, and then her brother was inhigh school and the brother
would push me down in the hallsand the mom.
And again I went to a ruralschool in Iowa.
The town was like 900 people,there wasn't a black person,
there wasn't a black person,there wasn't an asian person.
So it's like I was all of thosethings because my family, we
were the only like minorityfamily there but this mom again

(01:06:40):
I was 10 called me, they wouldcall me the n-word.
Tell me to go back to where Icame from.
Tell me, a 10 year old calledme an African American bitch,
which I'm you know.
Now I'm like, first off, likeI'm Marshallese thank you very
much but it got to a point wherethe school got involved and

(01:07:02):
yada, yada, yada.
Where I'm going with this is Iwould never wish harm on that
person, ever.
I didn't like that person for areally really long time.
I think that it's veryobviously wrong and evil for a
parent to do, but I don't thinkthe solution to evil is to then

(01:07:26):
justify evil happening to them.
So if I've run into her, I'vesaid hello and, you know, been a
kind person.
I obviously don't want to befriends and that we don't have,
you know, we do not align still,even though I'm, you know, 37
years old.

(01:07:46):
But like to see peoplejustifying, well, he's this and
he's that and he's that, and tothink like I wouldn't even wish
that on somebody who haspersonally been racist towards
me because I just I don't thinkthat that is going to solve the

(01:08:07):
problem.
And also, um, we are again veryquick to label people and very
quick to take things out ofcontext, but I don't think that
because someone says somethingthat you don't like and you
don't agree with that, theydeserve harm, and I think that's
very dangerous rhetoricrhetoric to go down and stand by

(01:08:30):
because one day that might getpointed at you and I think it
adds to people's fear of sharingtheir authentic opinion and I

(01:08:50):
don't like that and I think youknow it's important for us to
try to reframe that.

Leah (01:08:58):
I think another thing that is happening is like he is
being labeled as a bad personbecause he had ideas that people
don't necessarily agree with,and I will even say I didn't
agree with everything that hesaid.
I don't think he was a badperson.

No, I also.

Leah (01:09:17):
I think and I'm allowed to say I don't I.
There are people in my familywho I love dearly, who I don't
agree with sometimes.
I would never, never think thatthey deserve something like
that.
I would never think thatthey're a bad person because of
what they believe.

(01:09:37):
I'm going to just put this outthere and this is probably going
to if my family even listens tothis going to trigger some of
my family members.
But I think my mamaw was a very, very, very old fashioned
Christian woman, very simple,lived a very simple life.

(01:09:58):
The most wonderful human beingon the planet was very devout
Christian.
I think she would probably haveagreed with a lot of the things
he said because of her valuesand because of her faith, and
she was one of the best people Iknew.
She loved everybody, sheaccepted everybody.

(01:10:21):
Just because you don't agreewith something doesn't mean that
you don't accept that person asa human being.

Yeah.

Leah (01:10:30):
You know, like she loved everybody equally.
Yeah, and I think it's crazy tosay that just because you don't
align or agree with something,that that means you're against
it, right?
That's crazy, yeah.

I've also.
We really throw around labels.
I've been called a racist andit's gotten to a point where the
word has lost its meaning.
I think because we throw itaround so loosely and we are so

(01:11:14):
quick to dehumanize each otherin the name of social justice.
And what I've seen is you and Ishare a friend, angie.
She is somebody who is a devoutChristian.
I don't agree with her on it,on everything.
We've actually had like heateddiscussions with each other
because I am much more spiritual.

(01:11:38):
So she takes she is very by theBible.
I am not.
I take that as one.
It's up for interpretation andsome people, I feel like, take
it literally and that's okay.
That is their belief.
I don't want to change theirbelief, but I have a belief in

(01:12:05):
God.
We just have differentinterpretations and I think
that's okay.
We've had wonderfulconversations about it and we do
not agree.
I don't think she is a badperson.
I don't think she thinks of meas a bad person.
I think I have opened herperspective to different things
and vice versa.

(01:12:26):
She was, you know, in my lifebefore I did mushrooms and
although she has not touched italthough I do hope one day she
does I've never pushed that onher.
She shares it with peoplebecause, like she has seen

(01:12:46):
through me what I've gonethrough, and I think that I
guess what I'm trying to say isI feel like I am watching people
in real time show theirspiritual emptiness yeah, and

(01:13:10):
it's hard to watch and showtheir lack of soleness and lack
of humanity in the name ofsocial justice and in the name
of staying on their side.
And I hope that this climate nowis an opportunity for all of us

(01:13:37):
to be able to take a step backand maybe, at the point where we
start to get so angry that weare dehumanizing each other, I
post this on my Facebook thatmaybe it's a call to do the
inner work and to just I'm notsaying that in like a

(01:13:59):
condescending way.
I'm saying that in a way oflike why are you so angry?
Why do you vilify somebody whohas a different opinion than you
?
Why can't you have aconversation and hear a
different perspective and stayregulated?
Why is that?
Why do you justify these things?

Leah (01:14:21):
I've also seen a lot of whataboutism where it's Explain
what that is in this context,because I know what it means.

But when it's.
Explain what that is in thiscontext, because I know what it
means.
But yeah, and it's, it's.
Oh, so you posted About CharlieKirk.
Well, what about mass shootings?
What about this?

Leah (01:14:45):
What about this?
I'm having to post about this.

Yes, so I wrote this.
I've not shared it.

Leah (01:14:54):
Oh, this is the first first listen inside edition.

Yes, so I've seen a lot of what about ism to justify
a human being get assassinatedassassinated while we watched it
on our social media platformsand for many of us it was
involuntary.
This mentality of type ofthinking is called splitting,
which we've talked about,meaning you only think in black
and white, are unable to holdnuance, use it to shut down

(01:15:18):
dialogue and it actuallyescalates the problem more and
then kind of what we've said.
It's incredibly narcissistic.
So one quote I see a lot.
Well, why don't you care aboutschool shootings?
And I put I have yet to meet asoul who votes in any direction,
who is not absolutely horrifiedat what gun violence has become

(01:15:42):
in America, watching innocentchildren get watching and
hearing about innocent childrenbeing shot and killed while at
school especially.
We have opinions all across theboard on how to solve it, but
nonetheless, most rational humanbeings find it absolutely

(01:16:03):
heartbreaking and wanted to end.
Next one Well, why didn't youpost about X, y and Z?
Next one Well, why didn't youpost about X, y and Z?
And I wrote because I haveexperienced this.
You have too.
We just talked about thisBecause social media,
specifically for me, instagram,used to be a place where I went

(01:16:24):
to go post a shitty picture withan even shittier filter and it
got like two likes yeah, and itwas fucking awesome and only our
friend saw it and only ourfriend saw it.
Sorry, it is nothing like thatanymore.
And coincidentally, with therise of social media came the
decline of our mental health.
Social media has become such aheavy place where we are exposed

(01:16:48):
to daily tragedies all over theworld that our nervous systems
were not built to see.
Let's add the pressure to notonly post but to say the right
thing according to the alwaysmoving narrative, because that
is now what we call socialjustice.
It feels like a lot of pressure.
Well, he said so.

(01:17:10):
This is the next one.
Well, he said X, said x, y andz, so he got what he deserved,
or he got what he he stood foranyways.
I've seen that a lot.
I've seen that a lot.
We have to be able to normalizehearing things we don't like or
agree with, while stayingregulated.
I do not consider myself achristian a and I do not even

(01:17:31):
own a gun, but I respect that.
He wanted to debatespecifically with people who did
not agree with him and hewanted to have much needed
dialogue about uncomfortabletopics.
I also respected that he stayedcalm and didn't yell or call
people names, and I cannot saythe same for some of the people
who chose to debate him.

(01:17:52):
Whether you liked him or not isirrelevant, and the people
quoting him to justify nothaving compassion are removing a
lot of context from what heactually said and meant.
We have to start humanizingeach other and let go of the
expectation that 8 billionpeople using a social media
platform need to water or filterdown every opinion to fit your

(01:18:16):
perspective and worldview.
Another one I am not going tocelebrate it, but I'm definitely
not sad about it.
When I am able to see peoplefrom the right, left and middle

(01:18:50):
all agree that what we witnessedthe other day about him or what
he stood for, I am stillreminded that there is still so
much extremism and polarizationand I'm sorry, but that is some
dark ass energy.
But even where there is dark,there is also still a lot of

(01:19:10):
light.
But even where there is dark,there is also still a lot of
light.
What an incredible freedom thatwe have the opportunity to
agree and disagree with eachother.
Please do not take that forgranted.
I can't help but think aboutwhere I was during 9-11, and I

(01:19:31):
said this sitting in my middleschool class and we all united
as a country.
Believe it or not, there was along period of time before
social media existed, where thenorm was to not have any idea
who someone voted for and tocontinue to be friends and in
relationships with people whohad polar opposite opinions of
you.
My husband, tony, his parents.

(01:19:53):
They voted differently and theyhad one of the most beautiful
marriages that I've ever heardabout.
Don't let an echo chamberconvince you otherwise.
At some point we all have toremind ourselves to take a step
back, be conscious of thecontent we are consuming and if

(01:20:13):
it's narrowing our worldview oropening it up, and take
responsibility for the words andenergy we are putting into the
world.
I see a lot of lack of empathy,labeling and finger pointing
from people who I know aredysregulated, avoid themselves
and are mentally and emotionallynot okay.

(01:20:36):
When you are operating from aplace like that, your vision may
not be as clear as you think.
Make sure to take care ofyourself, take breaks from your
phone often and do more of thethings that are actually good
for your soul.
We need more people, now morethan ever, who stay present and
grounded and if you are somebodywho also feels politically

(01:20:56):
homeless at this time, I see youand I was just, like you know,
with it's been a lot on socialmedia and I just I wrote that
but I kept it to myself.
But you've seen all the, allthe notes I've written since I
don't know for the last likeyear and a half that I've just
kept to myself.
But you've seen all the notesI've written since I don't know

(01:21:16):
for the last year and a halfthat I've just kept to myself
and showed you we have morepeople who are willing to step
up and are able to haveconversations and have open
dialogue, even with people thatwe, um, don't agree with or we

(01:21:38):
see as wrong.

Leah (01:21:40):
I will say that that has been something that I have seen.
Um, not a lot of it, but enoughof it.
That makes me feel somewhathopeful.

And that's kind of what I said too.
Like I've seen people on theleft be like that's wrong, it's
so wrong and there's justthere's no excuse for it, like
there's no excuse.

Leah (01:22:02):
I've also, you know, seen the noise.
I've seen the um, that noise,I've seen the um posts that are
being taken out of context andquotes that are being used
against him.
And this is where, again, thisis where I have learned at years

(01:22:23):
, into using my discernment andusing my rabbit hole searching,
I have learned to take nothingat face value, a hundred percent
Nothing.
So the first time I saw thathis quote on empathy was used
against him, I immediately wentto go find where he said that

(01:22:46):
and I found the full context andI was like that is not what he
was saying.

You want to share that?

Leah (01:22:51):
Well, I'm not able to quote it, so I feel weird
quoting it, but I can parap fullcontext and I was like that is
not what he was saying.
You want to share that Well?

I'm not able to quote it, so I feel weird quoting it,
but I can paraphrase.

Leah (01:22:55):
Yes, he was basically saying that Bill Clinton and
politicians have started to useempathy as a.
He was saying like when BillClinton was president, he
started to use this as a tactic.

I feel how you feel.

Leah (01:23:08):
I know how you feel.
I know exactly how you feelLike you should vote for me, and
they're using it as a tactic towin votes and and emotionally
like manipulate you and it works.
But.
But he's saying there's no waya politician can know exactly
what you feel.
And so he likes so he likes theword sympathy better, and we

(01:23:32):
could go and we will.
We will do an entire episode onempathy and how too much of a
good thing can also be a badthing.

And also how we both felt like we were empaths, and
we don't even believe in thatterm anymore.

Leah (01:23:44):
I don't even believe it's a thing and I feel like I need
to elaborate on that, but notright now.

Yes, and we started the podcast saying we were both
empaths and we have both changedour minds on that.

Leah (01:23:58):
I guess what I would like to say is like everybody is and
everybody isn't right, and itcan be an incredibly good thing,
but it can also be anincredibly bad thing.
I would rather have yoursympathy and compassion than
your empathy.
I don't want people hurtingover something I'm going through
if it's not theirs, and I hadto learn that the hard way.

(01:24:19):
I had to stop feeling everyoneelse's pain so I could feel at
peace.
I had to sift through what weremy feelings versus the feelings
feelings of others, and and toomuch empathy absolutely will
send you into a depressivespiral.

That and I also learned that like, oh you know,
having so much empathy andfeeling everybody's pain, it was
a way to avoid my own work.

Leah (01:24:48):
I didn't even think about that, but absolutely.

Yeah.

Leah (01:24:51):
Yeah, I had.
Once I started to sift throughwhat was mine and what wasn't
like, I started to really beable to find peace within myself
.
And again, we can do an episodeon that later, because we
talked about empathy in thefirst season and our, our views
have changed Right, and that'sokay, and that's okay.

We're going to be ever evolving, which I want to
talk about.
Um, we've talked about, kind ofthe polarization of um, this
climate right now.
Uh, a theory that you and Ihave talked about, but I don't I
don't know if our listenersknow this term.
Oh, it's called the horseshoetheory.
Oh, yeah, so this term wascoined by a French philosopher.
Hopefully I said this, right,jean-pierre Fay, jean-pierre,

(01:25:43):
yeah, jean-pierre Fay, in the1990s.
The idea of it is that the farleft and the far right are not
linear opposites like two endsof a straight line.
Instead, they curve like ahorseshoe towards each other,
like the ends of a horseshoeMeaning, while moderates center

(01:26:09):
left, center right, whilemoderates center left, center
right are far apart fromextremists, the extremes
themselves begin to mirror eachother in tactics, attitudes and
authoritarian impulses.
So I want to like elaborate onthat is there are a lot of
people who hate Trump.
There are a lot of people whohate Trump.

(01:26:30):
I myself was somebody who hatedhim because I thought
everything he stood for was inhate racism, extremism, bigotry,
ignorance, all of it, um, allof it.

(01:27:00):
But I think that if you get toa point where you hate someone
so much and that is what'sfueling you is your hatred for
that person, that sometimes youoperate from a level and from a
wounded place where you actuallystart to act similarly.
So, um, it's like me saying Idon't align with the democratic

(01:27:21):
party for these reasons andsaying, okay, so you're just a
Trumper and you're just afascist now.
So, again, you hate him becauseyou think he's ignorant, he's
is racist, he lacks diversity.
But you are canceling somebodywithout even giving them a

(01:27:42):
conversation and essentiallybeing hateful yourself.
And I've really struggled withthat.
Um, I've had a a lot of.
I've have had a really hardtime with talking to people on
the left who have an extremehatred for trump, because it's

(01:28:03):
what fuels them.
It is what fuels them and, like, like I said, when I was
talking to that friend who I'vebeen friends with for 10 years,
I never said anything aboutTrump and um, there was a lot of
extreme extremism.
And what about ism?
And so if I said I am, I havedisagreed with um, this and this

(01:28:27):
on the left and it's a partyI've belonged to, so I wanted to
share that.
Well, what about Trump?
What about what he did?
I also said and this is goingto be controversial and I know
it and I'm also going to stand10 toes down on it at the moment
, because it's what I believe Isaid.

(01:28:49):
I do not agree that we shouldbe allowing children to
transition when their brain andbodies are not developed, and
it's going to cause permanentdamage.
Permanent damage, um, I just Idon't agree with that.

(01:29:16):
If you're an adult with a fullydeveloped frontal lobe, you go
for it.
That's not what I'm talkingabout to do that's not what I'm
talking about.
I'm talking about children andI'm saying this as a mother who
has a child that that isirreparable damage that you
cannot undo.
Well, so-and-so is trans, andif they didn't do this while

(01:29:38):
they were a kid, they were goingto kill themselves.

Leah (01:29:42):
It's the whataboutism.

It is the whataboutism.
What I wanted to say back tothat, but I couldn't because I
was like this person is they'renot hearing you.
They're not regulated,everything is well.
What about this?
What about that?
What I wanted to say back tothat was then maybe we should
start having conversations ofwhat the trauma is around that

(01:30:09):
and dig deeper on that before wemake permanent changes to
somebody's body.

Leah (01:30:16):
as a child it should not be the first line of action?

It should not be the first line of action, just like
how I also believe if you arestruggling with your mental
health depression, anxiety,eating disorders, you know,
whatever it is I don't think thefirst line of defense should be
to go on an antidepressant.
I think it should be getting tothe root of why you are feeling

(01:30:46):
that way in the in the firstplace.
Is it, um, uh, trauma thathasn't been addressed?
Um, do you feel safe in yourbody?
Yes, do you feel safe at home?
You know what are some of thethings that have happened to you
?
What are some of the modalitiesthat you have used, those types

(01:31:07):
of things?
I'm going to treat that issuespecifically with children.
The same, and that seems to bea very controversial topic.
But where I've struggled iswith the left, is, I feel, like
the marker is always moving andwe are not allowed to question
it, and I think it's okay toquestion it and we throw these

(01:31:32):
labels.
Okay, well, you are transphobic.

Leah (01:31:35):
No.

Phobia means to have like a phobic if you're racist,
you're homophobic, you'retransphobic.
That means to have a fear or aprejudice against, and I think
having questions or havingconcerns about certain issues

(01:31:58):
and then getting labeled one ofthose things is a wonderful way
to be able to take out necessarydialogue, because you are
shutting that conversation downand I think it should be a
conversation and we shouldnormalize being able to have
conversations about that,because they are very real

(01:32:21):
things that are happening rightnow and I think I am allowed to
say, as a human, as an adult, asa mother, I have some questions
that doesn't sit right with me.
Yeah, it doesn't sit right withme.
Who are these doctors?
Why?
What's big pharma getting outof this?

(01:32:43):
There seems to be a lot ofindoctrination with children
with taking medicine.
I have questions.

Leah (01:32:53):
I feel like our family is not the norm, typical family,
because I have an eight-year-old, a 13-year-old and an almost
18-year-old who have never beenmedicated.

Yes.

Leah (01:33:04):
And most of the children in their classes are heavily
medicated.
Yes, their classes are heavilymedicated.
I have heard mothers talk abouttheir children being on
multiple medications for theiranxiety, for their ADHD, for
their depression, and they're 12years old.

I know a 10-year-old who is on Ambien.

Leah (01:33:26):
That's not okay.
That's not okay and I have avery triggering response to
Ambien and you know this ahundred percent, because it is
personal.
It's a very personal situationand it is not a medication that
anybody ever should be on forlonger than three months, ever,
ever.

Yeah, it's really does a lot of damage to your
brain and I really would like toget into more episodes where we
are talking about SSRIs that'san episode.
We're talking about benzosthat's an episode.
We're talking about Ambienthat's an episode.
I've seen a lot of rhetoricwhere, okay, you and I watch

(01:34:09):
Bravo and we watch um summerhouse.
Yeah, oh gosh, what is um pageon page de sorbo?
The giggly squad?
Yes, she hosts a podcast calledthe giggly squad, but she's on
something, um, oh, like amedicine.
Yes, she's on a medicine.

(01:34:29):
Fuck, I'm going to have to lookthis up.

Leah (01:34:33):
I don't want to say it wrong.

I don't either.

Leah (01:34:34):
Like Alexa pro or something, whatever
Pharmaceutical.

They had an ad on Instagram show up, and it was
like the giggly squad does it,so can you?
I was like crazy, that's crazy,does it, so can you?
And I was like crazy, that'scrazy, that's so nuts.
Because, fun fact, you shoulddo it too.
Well, and pharmaceuticals arenot allowed in other countries

(01:35:03):
besides us and New Zealand, andI think New Zealand has even
stronger regulations with that,so I'm almost positive.
No, they are okay.
Okay, you looked at me.

Leah (01:35:14):
I didn't mean to look at you like that.
No, they absolutely are okayyou shared statistics on this
before yeah, yeah, um.

So again, what are we , what are we getting programmed
to believe?
Um, but anyways, on this, thispost, it was wild to watch the
comments because it was likeLexapro girly here, welbutrin,
you know, if I don't take myProzac I can't function.

(01:35:43):
You know all that stuff and I'mlike whew, the Liberal Party
man.
It used to be anti those thingsand now it's very pro those
things.

Leah (01:35:53):
But can I also say that if you say that that you are
diminishing mental health andyou are stigmatizing mental
health and it's like actually no, that's not what we're saying
at all.

Also, a lot of these medications have been proven to
numb.
And is it the black box whereit says can cause suicidal and
homicidal ideation?

Leah (01:36:24):
Nobody ever talks about these side effects with you.

We take it like it's candy Antidepressants you told
me they take two years to weanoff and I don't think a lot of
doctors share that.
No, so I really would like toget into, dive into that.
And again, that's another.
Very uncomfortable, it's atopic we've been afraid to touch

(01:36:47):
fully.
We've expressed some things, butwe have not expressed fully the
information that we havegathered and what we know now
versus what we knew when wefirst started I also think that
we have been very um, we'vewalked on eggshells of what we
really think, so we say thingslike well, I mean, if something

(01:37:09):
happens and you really need it,that's okay.

Leah (01:37:12):
And we've tried very hard to like be very neutral.
Yes, yes.

Yes.

Leah (01:37:20):
Yeah, and I want to go back because I don't want to
lose this trait of thought but,like when you were talking about
this conversation that you'rehaving with this person and
they're like they're what aboutthis and what about that.
One of the other things that Ithink you and I have both worked
very, very hard on that havemaybe helped shape the way that
we are right now is ourrelationships with our husbands,

(01:37:45):
and I have learned so much moreabout how to be in a healthy,
loving, safe relationship sincewe started doing this work
together, and I believe the samefor you Doesn't mean it's
perfect.

You were such a wounded feminine.

Leah (01:38:07):
And I was the poster girl of wounded masculine 100% and I
was the poster girl of woundedmasculine A hundred percent and
I think one of the things thatwe have learned in like I go
down so many rabbit holes and Ilistened to a lot of
informational podcasts and I'velistened to the Gottman I was

(01:38:27):
going to say the Gottman twinsand that's not what they are,
the Gottman lab, like thehusband and wife, who are like
relationship experts and they doall these studies on like
relationships and healthyrelationships versus toxic ones
and how to tell which ones willlast and how to tell which ones
won't and how to fight, becauseif you're not fighting also
that's a red flag.
If you're not havingconversation and communication,

(01:38:47):
that's a red flag.
I know several people who arelike we just don't fight.
Like what are you holding back?

What are you keeping in One or both of you is not
being authentic.

Leah (01:38:58):
Because one of the things that I learned through all of
this unlearning and relearninghow to be in a relationship with
someone was when I go to Jasonwith an issue and I say with
someone was when I go to Jasonwith an issue and I say this
thing, you did really hurt myfeelings.
And he says to me oh yeah, well, what about this?

(01:39:18):
You did this to me.
That not only is toxic, but itis also a very narcissistic
tendency for people to use todeflect, and it used to make me
so mad because he would changethe subject so fast and put the
blame on me.
I am not saying that I have notalso done that in the past.

(01:39:40):
I think we've all been guiltyof that.
I don't think either one of usrealized how toxic that was.
When someone is coming to youwith an issue and you turn it
around and say, well, what aboutthis?
That's incredibly not onlyinvalidating, but you're

(01:40:03):
deflecting, you're not evenacknowledging that person's
feelings or thoughts and you'renot even allowing this to go
into a healthy direction.
It's not going to end well,yeah, there's not going to be a
healthy dialogue.
There's not going.
This person is immediately notsafe, this person immediately
feels attacked and they're goingto go back into their shell and

(01:40:24):
they're like well, I'm notgoing to bring it up, I guess
well, and I think every time Ibring something up, something
else gets thrown back at me andI shouldn't be that way.

What's interesting is , if you just take what you said
, take everything out of thisepisode that we've talked about,
take the politics out of it.
Yeah, you take what you said,most people would be like,
absolutely, that is toxic, thathe would do that and he would
dismiss it and kind of be like,well, what about me?
Yeah, and kind of be like, well, what about me?
Yeah, I think that we need tochannel that energy towards the

(01:40:55):
way we talk to people aboutpolitics as well.
Yeah, because that people agreewith you, but then they don't
apply it to themselves and maybehow they talk to each other in
this political climate.

Leah (01:41:09):
Yeah, because that's different.
It is that that's different.
That's not the same like whenit's when it comes to human
relationships, healthy humanrelationships.

that is necessary and the other thing too, about this
what about ism?
I see a lot of well, I'm just,I guess I'm just on the side
that actually cares about peopleand has empathy and has
compassion.
Again, I don't think peoplerealize this, and I've been

(01:41:45):
there.
I'm saying this for myself aswell.
We've both been there.
That's a very narcissisticthing to say, because
essentially, what you're sayingis I'm a good person, you are a
terrible person.
I'm on the side of good, youare the side of evil, I'm.
You know this, this, this, youare anti and it's a form of

(01:42:13):
extremism.

Leah (01:42:17):
I'm going to use this as an example and I hope that this
comes across and I hope that youguys are open to hearing what
I'm going to say, because it'snot like.
I don't think it's the bestexample, but it is an example of
something someone specificallysaid to me, of something someone

(01:42:42):
specifically said to me how cananyone support someone who the
KKK supports?
This was said to me and Ithought about that because I'm
like that's fucked up and youknow true, like, oh shit, didn't
think about it that way.
Do you know how many people Ihave in my life who are
extremely liberal and probablythe most toxic person people
I've ever met in my entire life?

(01:43:03):
There are horrible people onboth sides of the spectrum
because, again, there is always,there's always going to be good
and there's always going to beevil.

On one side.

Leah (01:43:19):
We are never, ever going to get rid of that Ever.
There are probably I'm notsaying this as like a definite,
because it's just like I'm justgoing to say it there are
probably pedophiles on the left,rap, it's just like I'm just
going to say it like there areprobably pedophiles on the left,
rapists on the left, racists onthe left.
There are so many differentpeople and what we label as like

(01:43:43):
good and bad and horrible andevil all over, a hundred percent
, all over, but some of thepeople who have done the most
damage in my life have been onthe side that they thought was
good, yeah, so I think that thatis like an extreme example.

Yeah.

Leah (01:44:06):
And I hate that.
Yeah, I hate to like even usethat as an example, because it
really like fucks with you alittle bit and makes you like
think yeah.
But maybe that's like, why Likethink about it for just a
minute.

Oh, a hundred percent .
And I think there's badChristians and I think there are
people who really, like I'mlike, wow, I feel like they
embody what, like in my mind, aChristian should embody.
There's bad people who areatheists.
There's bad people who areatheists.
There's wonderful people whoare atheists.
Hang on, I'm putting a pin init.

(01:44:40):
You brought up the racism thingand I have had some of the most
intolerant conversations withpeople on the left, with people
on the left.
Right now, people on the righthave been more tolerant to the

(01:45:01):
fact that I don't agree withthem fully.
And I'm going to add to that andI said this to when I was
having this conversation, textconversation with that friend
who, like really wouldn't meetwith me to have an in-person

(01:45:23):
conversation is for the peoplewho constantly preach that they
are anti-racist not that they'rejust not anti, not that they're
just they're not racist, theyare anti-racist.

(01:45:48):
I've experienced the mostintolerant from them, to the
point where I'm like I was seenas a good human and as somebody
who was so necessary fordiversity when I was on your

(01:46:10):
side, yet you exiled me, shut medown, weren't even open to an
in-person conversation, eventhough I was the one who got
berated for just speaking mymind and now I'm just exiled out

(01:46:32):
from your life and essentiallyexiled from a group.
Yeah, you might not be asanti-racist as you think you are
, because it feels like it hasfelt like brown and black people
have been used for numbers, notfor the fact that we are

(01:46:54):
embraced, because we are diverse, which includes our
intellectual diversity as well.
A little fun fact Malcolm Xalso spoke about this.
I didn't know that, I'll haveto find the direct quote, but he
just talked about how I'm notquoting him correctly, but how,

(01:47:24):
at least with white Republicans,he knew where he stood knew
where he stood, and with whiteliberals he felt like he was
being used for a movement.
I remember reading this and hefelt that that was more
dangerous.

(01:47:44):
I also, um I want to get intohim later, but there is um, an
independent voice.
His name is Coleman Hughes.
He's a black man, um, but ohshit, I just lost my train of

(01:48:04):
thought.
Oh, I know, um.
He was talking about the CharlieKirk shooting and how he is
having issues as a black man andseeing the justification and
even the celebration of thisviolence, and that in the 60s

(01:48:29):
there were more assassinations.
In the 70s there was morepolitical violence.
And he has watched every MLKspeech and even though you know
we don't live in a world thatMLK lived in, I want to be very,

(01:48:51):
very clear on that, um and MLKspoke in I want to be very, very
clear on that and MLK spoke atnauseam about how violence was
never the way to solve theproblem ever, and they were
going through more politicalviolence at that time than what

(01:49:14):
we are now.
And every speech it wasn't.
He wouldn't just say it, hespoke about it for like 30
minutes continued to reiteratethat that, even though he was
experiencing violence, violencewas not the answer, and I think

(01:49:39):
we all need to remind ourselvesof that.
But, yeah, it's beendisappointing to feel like you
were used for a movement andyour actual thoughts and
viewpoints and perspectives andbackgrounds, because, again,
that person has not asked me onequestion about my background

(01:50:05):
and where I come from.
We've been friends for 10 yearsand I don't think she probably
knows anything about my cultureand, granted, that's on me too,
because I didn't speak a lotabout it.
I've spoken up more about it inrecent years, but I guess what
I'm trying to say is there isstill some learning.
Even when you think you're onthe side of good, everyone

(01:50:26):
thinks they're on the side ofgood.

Leah (01:50:28):
Everybody.

Yeah, there was a podcast interview that I saw and
he was interviewing an actorand I think, oh gosh, what movie
was it?
Inglourious Bastards.

Leah (01:50:42):
Maybe I haven't seen it.

OK, I think Brad Pitt , whatever but he was like you
played evil so well.
How did you play somebody soevil?
Oh, I saw this clip.
How did you play somebody soevil?
Oh, I saw this clip, how didyou do that?
And he was like, when I acted,I didn't think that I was on the
side of evil.
I thought I was doing the goodthing and the right thing.

(01:51:05):
Just something to think about.

Leah (01:51:10):
I was just going to say.
That is literally justsomething to think about.

I was just going to say that is literally just just
go ahead and sit with that.

Leah (01:51:16):
Yeah, I'm going to.
Okay, so we are about to haveto come to an end and we didn't
even get into our notes, and sothis makes me like we're going
to have a lot to talk about.
Yeah, we're going to have a lotto talk about you guys we

(01:51:37):
didn't get past page one and wehave 15 pages of notes, 15 pages
.
So we've we've bottled a lot up.
We did, and I think that thiswas necessary, but I do want to
end with um this if you're, if,if you're okay with ending yes,
okay, yeah, yeah um, I think wealso in this time where we felt
like our voices were unsafe andwhere we felt like no one else
felt like us and we had ourcircles getting smaller and

(01:51:59):
smaller, and there are I willsay like there are people that I
have talked to in the past yearwho feel very exactly the way
we feel and they just don't feelcomfortable to speak on it and,
and I get that.
I get that.
We have always said that, evenwhen it came to psychedelics,
you and I are in a place wherewe can speak on it.

(01:52:21):
We don't have employers to comeafter us.
We have families where,honestly, we've gotten to the
point where we're like it's okayif you don't agree with me, it
took a lot of work to get herebut I think in this situation
like we don't, you don't have tospeak up.
We will speak up for you.
Yeah, but I also think that thisis why, like this discord

(01:52:44):
community might be a safer placefor people to openly share and
feel safe and not feel theweight of social media coming
down on them.
Yes, and feel safe and not feelthe weight of social media
coming down on them.
But it seems like the rightthings and the right podcasts

(01:53:09):
and the right books always seemto fall into our paths at the
right time Around.
This time last year, we cameacross Africa Brooke, who wrote
a book, and we both read thisbook, and I think that, honestly
, that book has been what'sgiven me the strength.
We were never going to go inthis direction, by the way.
Yeah.

No, we weren't.

Leah (01:53:30):
Ever.
Ever.
We were like this is notsomething we touch, we don't
touch it, we don't want to gettoo controversial.
This is not something we touch,we don't touch it, we don't
want to get too controversial.
That's not what we're here todo.
It brought us both to a placeyou were already there, but, but
I think it helped you in theway you speak yes.

(01:53:51):
And how careful you are withyour words, which matter so much
.
Yeah, but she wrote a bookcalled the Third Perspective,
and this is kind of what we'vebeen trying to say this
politically homeless place, thisthird perspective, this it's

(01:54:12):
not us versus them, it's notright or left, it's not good
versus evil.
It is literally this place inthe middle that anyone who's on
either side cannot see.
They cannot even fathom thatthere would be someone in the
middle.
How, how?
And I will say, I used to thinkthis way too, and I'm going to
say what I said to you the otherday.

(01:54:34):
I sometimes feel like if I amtalking to someone about this
third perspective or this centerplace, they think I'm making
something up.
They cannot fathom that that'sa possibility that someone could
sit somewhere in the middle onany of these issues, that there

(01:54:55):
is a third perspective.
It's almost like I'm speakinglike there's this like make
believe Narnia type place andthey're not hearing what I'm
saying.
Yeah, yeah.
And so I highly recommend Iprobably listened to.
I couldn't even tell you howmany hours of her podcasts I

(01:55:16):
listened to.
I was going to add that too,not just her podcast but her
being guests on other podcasts,Her book was extremely helpful
and it's not political.

No.

Leah (01:55:29):
At all.

Yeah.

Leah (01:55:32):
But she is extremely well-versed, extremely
well-spoken.

So soft-spoken and articulate.

Leah (01:55:40):
I wish, and her book teaches you to speak the way she
speaks.
It teaches you how toarticulate these things without
getting a rise out of yourself,with how to stay grounded in
your beliefs, how to have theseconversations and to speak

(01:56:02):
uncomfortable truths to peoplewithout silencing yourself,
without going back into yourhole.

Yeah, so, and I want to touch up on her just a little
bit and and also to I want toprovide, um you know, podcasts,
books, people to follow who aremore in the middle and really
hold space for nuance and andand gray um in life.

(01:56:29):
And what I really love aboutAfrica is she is a black woman,
she's an immigrant from Zimbabweand has moved to the UK and
wrote a letter on Instagram in2021.

Leah (01:56:47):
We should share that letter.
We really should.

Yes, about how she was leaving the cult of wokeness
and obviously got a lot ofpushback for being a black woman
.
And I want to stress too, whenwe've listened to a lot of
people and read books, we'velistened to people from all
diverse backgrounds Um, andsomething that really resonated

(01:57:13):
with me that she talks about isshe talks about how she was part
of the woke movement and, um,very mentally, um and
emotionally dysregulated at thattime and fell into the oh, I'm
oppressed, I'm oppressed, I'moppressed, I'm oppressed, and

(01:57:39):
the kind of the more work shedid on herself.
She was like I refuse to saythat I'm oppressed when I live
in the UK and have this lifethat I live, and I have family
members who are living inZimbabwe who are actually
oppressed, and so I got to thatpoint where I had this victim

(01:58:03):
mentality and through, you know,doing a lot of kind of work but
taking like self-responsibility, that I'm not a victim in this
country.
I'm like here I am talkingabout how I'm oppressed here and

(01:58:25):
I get to live the life that Ilive and do whatever I want to
do, say whatever I want to say,and I have family members who
don't have that in the MarshallIslands, I have siblings who
don't have access to runningwater or electricity, and in the

(01:58:47):
Marshall Islands the closestdecent hospital is Hawaii, which
is a seven hour flight away, sothey don't even have access to
good healthcare.
Um and I lost a sister-in-lawduring COVID because she had

(01:59:09):
cancer and didn't have access toeven just be able to get to a
hospital.
Um, and here I am, sitting hereand feeling sorry for myself.
Um, so, reading her book,finding her content highly,
highly, highly, encourage you tofollow her on Instagram and

(01:59:33):
listen to some of the podcaststhat she has been on.
Read her book the ThirdPerspective A really good one.

Leah (01:59:41):
I'm just going to throw this out.
There is the one that she doeswith Diary of a CEO, Stephen
Bartlett.

That's a really good one, but we can link some more,
but that was probably the firsttime I ever heard her speak some
more, but that was probably thefirst time I ever ever heard
her speak long form, yes and um,yeah it it just.
It changed my perspective tohear a different perspective
that didn't fit my narrative andmade me realize that there are

(02:00:09):
things that I have don't havecontrol over and there are
things that I do have controlover.
And what I do have control overis myself, the energy that I
bring into the world, the workthat I'm doing with myself and
with my family, and um how muchmy mental health has changed and

(02:00:29):
my perspective has changed butalso opened up when doing those
things.

Leah (02:00:36):
So that was beautifully said.
I encourage anybody to evenstart with her letter, her open
letter, and why she left thecoat of wokeism.
It's the cult of wokeism.
It is like a like makes.
Like even hearing that titlelike makes you want to like

(02:00:57):
clench your booty hole a littlebit and your jaws, and that's
okay and that's more than okay.
Like we are all about sittingthrough the discomfort and being
uncomfortable to get to theother side of something.
And so when I finished readingthat, I was like, holy shit, I

(02:01:17):
never thought about it this way.
I never, ever thought about itbeing offensive to think that
she was oppressed and for her tosay that.
I was like, oh my God, I'mreally happy that I read that
now.

Yep.

Leah (02:01:35):
It's a hard read, yeah, but worth it.
Um.
So I guess in closing we'regonna continue part one um, this
will be a full episode,obviously, because we're almost.
We're at two hours, holy shit,um, but we have.
This was supposed to be episodeone.

(02:01:57):
That's so crazy, and I feellike this is going to be 15
episodes.
You never know, you never know.
So if you made it this far, wereally appreciate your support.
We hope you, um, came out ofthis feeling something positive,
feeling hopeful, feeling lessalone, and we encourage you to

(02:02:27):
stay open and be curious, andwe'll see you on the other side
in the next episode.
Bye, bye.

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98 | The Third Perspective: Politically Homeless in a Polarized World

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}98 | The Third Perspective: Politically Homeless in a Polarized World