99 | Context, Courage, and the Cost of Speaking Up

The temperature online feels louder, sharper, and less forgiving by the day. So we decided to do the uncomfortable thing: talk honestly about context, courage, and how to disagree without dehumanizing each other. We trace the spiral from viral clips to moral panic, the way empathy gets weaponized as a political pose, and why whataboutism is the fastest way to kill a real conversation. Along the way, we admit our own fears about posting, the hives and shaky hands that come with saying something unpopular, and the relief of finally choosing brave expression over silence.

We go deep on the Charlie Kirk controversy to show how quotes mutate when pulled from their setting, then widen the lens to the broader ecosystem: media echo chambers, confirmation bias, and the illusion that we’re all reacting to the same facts. We talk about listening to people we disagree with, seeking nonpartisan reporting, and recognizing when someone is committed to misunderstanding you. Bringing in Africa Brooke’s 'The Third Perspective,' we share practical tools for speaking with integrity in an age that punishes nuance.

The most personal turn comes with autism, Tylenol, vaccines, and the line between inquiry and taboo. One of us is parenting a child on the spectrum, and we center the harsh realities many families face while arguing for compassionate and curiosity instead of ridicule. We also examine pharma’s cultural footprint ~ direct-to-consumer ads, quick prescriptions, and the subtle ways a system conditions us to medicate first and ask later ~ without throwing out the real benefits of Western medicine.

If you’ve felt yourself go quiet to avoid the pile-on, this conversation is for you. Take a breath, step outside the algorithm, and come sit in the messy middle where context lives and curiosity survives. If this resonates, follow us on Patreon and share with a friend who values nuance and holds space for multiple perspectives.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Let's get comfy.
Let's get comfy.
Let's get comfy because we'reabout to get uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 (00:13):
Is this ever gonna get easier?

SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
I hope so.
I feel like this it feels like amuscle that we are training and
practicing.
And um, you know, you are usedto not talking about this stuff.
Yeah.
I'm not necessarily used totalking about this stuff.

(00:37):
I'm used to being opinionated,maybe even controversial with
some things, but um not likethis.
Yeah.
There's a lot of combativenessin the air right now.
So um what is happening?

SPEAKER_02 (00:55):
What's happening around social media and just
like the world in general rightnow?
Like all of the it's it's likeevery day we're hit with
something else.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07):
It feels like Mercury is in the microwave all
day, every day, 25-8.
25-8.
Yeah.
I said that on purpose.
I've never heard anybody saythat.
Yeah, no.
25-8, not 24-7.

SPEAKER_02 (01:23):
It is 25-8.
Um, yeah, it feels it, uh God,it feels like heavy and
insurmountable, but I also thinkthat it is like necessary.
And um let me explain what Imean by that.

(01:44):
Like, first off, we'll we'll getinto this in a second, but like
I think what we want to talkabout today is um what happened
with Charlie Kirk.

SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
Um we brushed on it a little bit on I guess what
part one.

SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
Yeah.
Um free speech, opinions, um,context, like context matters,
and um doing your own research.
Maybe like I guess these are allthe things that I want to touch
on today, like um doing your ownresearch, news outlets, and like

(02:23):
who's paying them to say what.
And uh also what just happened,I guess yesterday.
Yeah.
Um, with the announcement fromTrump.
Was it yesterday or a couple ofdays ago?

SPEAKER_00 (02:39):
Um, I think it was yes.
It was two days ago.
Well, and and yesterday, likeit's just been a shit storm on
social media.
And I posted something.
I you didn't tell me you weregonna post, and I saw it, and
then not only did you post, youposted like a few different
things, and that is somethingthat is very unlike you.

(03:00):
And like I felt like a proud momto a child, like who it was did
something brave.

SPEAKER_02 (03:10):
That's it's what it felt like.

SPEAKER_00 (03:12):
Like when you text me, you're like, you should see
my hives or you should see myneck and my chest right now.

SPEAKER_02 (03:17):
I was so red, I was like shaking, but at this end
every time I wanted to like goand delete it because I was
like, no, I'm gonna get somepushback.
I'm gonna get pushback, peopleare gonna like cancel me,
they're gonna unfollow.
I don't care anymore.
Yeah, like that's how far,that's how upset I am over this,
like silencing people becausethey feel something different.

(03:41):
Like, that's how mad I am.
So yeah.
So share it.
Well, I was just gonna say,like, I think we should touch on
that today, too, is like allthis stuff about Tylenol and
autism and um vaccines, and tryto go into that without again

(04:06):
like taking the politics out ofit and just looking at what is
actually happening.
It seems like we are living in aworld where everything is
political when it doesn't haveto be.
And if you believe this, thenyou're clearly Republican, and

(04:26):
if you believe that, then you'reclearly a liberal, like
Democrat, like whatever.
Like why why is it like that?

SPEAKER_00 (04:35):
Well, I do like what you posted because there's this
um content creator that we like,uh Laura Timu's.

SPEAKER_02 (04:42):
Oh, I thought it was Laura Matsu.

SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
Oh, yeah, you're right.

unknown (04:45):
You're right.

SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Timu Laura.
Laura Matsu.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And it was like, what a time tobe alive.
You know, one day you're aliberal because you believe in
like organic food and you areanti-big pharma.
Yeah.
And then the next day you'reextreme right because you

(05:07):
believe those same things.
Yeah.
And that's how it feels.
Um, and I think that there are alot of people who are scared to
talk who feel the same way wherethey're like, I'm now extreme
right.
I've never considered myselfextreme right, but now I'm
extreme right because I feelthis way, and I've kind of
always felt this way.

SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
We didn't we touched on something a little bit in our
last episode, but like how likeall of a sudden, like it it used
to be the other way around.
Yeah.
Like it really did.

SPEAKER_00 (05:40):
Well, and I've seen we've seen clips of like old
school liberals talking, andthat's yeah, what they're
they're they're saying.

SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
Like they are we don't trust big pharma.
You should go out and get somefresh air, like, you know, eat
healthy foods, like anti-largecorporation, exercising, and
then now it's like if you saythose things, it's offensive.
Like I am, I literally sometimesfeel like I'm losing my mind.

SPEAKER_00 (06:10):
Yeah.
Can I, can I, so I shared um, Ishared a clip once.
This was like, yes, stuff washeavy and definitely divided.
I feel like it gets worse andworse over time, but this was
probably like a year ago.
I posted um, it was a podcastclip just about the importance
of eating, like trying to eat asorganic as possible and eating

(06:32):
like whole whole nutrient densefoods.
Like as unprocessed as possible.
As unprocessed as possible, youknow, whatever.
And I got a really hateful, veryemotionally charged um DM from
somebody I know.
And she was like, you know,that's rich of you to say

(06:55):
because um you have money andthere are people who can't
afford it.
And I'm like, Yeah, you'refucking right.
Um I that's not what I'm tryingto say at all.
And she made it very political.
And I'm like, no, I I wish weall had access to nutrient-dense

(07:18):
foods.
And what I don't get to say toyou is that I have family in the
Marshall Islands.
Um, my cousin who you met at mywedding, she had gone to the
Marshall Islands probably likesix months ago, and she was
there visiting her parents andher family, and she went to the
grocery store because things inHawaii are incredibly expensive

(07:41):
as well.
It's very hard to eat healthy inthe Marshall Islands.
That's who I'm talking about.
Um, but to get a bag of grapeswas$30.
Jesus Christ.
And she's somebody who eatshealthy and tries to be fit, and
that is um, unfortunately, thereis a big um diabetes epidemic in

(08:04):
the Marshallese populationbecause they do not have access
to whole nutrient-dense foodsbecause to ship healthy foods to
the Marshall Islands isexpensive, and they don't the
land that we live on, there'snot like farming that they are
able to like grow their own likevegetables and fruits and things

(08:27):
like that.
There's obviously coconuts andbreadfruit and things like that,
but as a whole, the cheapestoption is to eat processed
foods.
So a lot of Marshallese peopleare overweight and unhealthy and
diabetic.
And I would love for that tochange, but you're, you know, in
my DMs insinuating like I don'tknow what that means and I don't

(08:51):
know what that feels like, andyou're policing me.
And instead, it could have beenan opportunity to have a
conversation to be like, yeah,this is a problem.
We actually like agree right onit.
You're taking it as we don'tagree, and you're taking it as
like I don't have experiencewith that, or I like I've just

(09:11):
lived this cush life, and you'reit's very privileged to say that
like eating healthy is good foryou.

SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
You shouldn't be saying that because not
everybody can eat healthy.

SPEAKER_00 (09:21):
How crazy is that?
And my cousin and I have talkedabout like what we could do for
our community, whether it beeducation, whether it be, you
know, finding opportunitieswhere um Marshallese people are
getting access to like a betterdiet.
Like we've talked about that.

(09:41):
And again, it's going back tolike you're missing ample these
opportunities to be able toconverse with your friends,
families, your neighbors,acquaintances instead of like
policing them.

SPEAKER_02 (09:55):
Wasn't there around this time there was also like
there are these like foodbloggers who post like healthy
recipes, and somebody postedlike a healthy Thanksgiving meal
option.
And they get a and she wasdragged in the comments because
like you shouldn't be fatshaming people and you shouldn't

(10:17):
be um making people feel badabout what they're eating on
Thanksgiving.
And people can't afford that,and yeah, and it's like her
whole platform is about healthyfood and and switching but to
like healthier options.
That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 (10:33):
Well, and it's gotten to a point where even if
you try to do the say do theright thing or say the right
thing, or you know, again, talkabout like here is an
alternative, so you're noteating shit, or you know, like
trying to maybe provideeducation or awareness about
something, you get fuckingmurdered online for it.

(10:55):
Right.
And and labeled and and andjudged, and it's just like, I
mean, what have we come to?
Over everything, it is overeverything, and I'm like, we
both constantly get thank youfor saying this.
I'm too scared to say say shit.
Yes, that's what happened to melast night.

SPEAKER_02 (11:14):
Yeah, like I didn't have any negative engagement.
Most of my engagement wasthrough DMs, and most of them
were saying, like, thank you forfor saying this out loud.

SPEAKER_00 (11:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (11:27):
I wish I could say it.

SPEAKER_00 (11:28):
Yeah.
We also both know people who ifthey have liked something on the
internet, they get verballyattacked by somebody that they
know.
We do.
That is fucking wild to me.

SPEAKER_02 (11:46):
And again, I think I have a friend who lost a
lifelong friend because sheliked an Instagram post.

SPEAKER_00 (11:57):
Yeah.
And I I think that it's there'sgot to be a point where there
are people like us who are like,all right, we need to talk about
this because this is a fuckingproblem.
And somebody's gotta be the oneto bridge the gap and to be able

(12:17):
to have these conversations.
And that's kind of where we'reat.
And I think we're gonna probablyhave a lot of conversations
about this because it's such aprevalent problem right now.
It's every content, every dayyou get on social media, and
it's it's just so much vitriol,and so many people are like,
Well, I'm gonna deactivate mysocial media.

(12:39):
I'm not gonna say anything, I'mgonna mute myself and that is
very valid, and that is veryfair.
But that's what I've been doing.
Yeah, but I think that there'sgotta be somebody who's the
people there's gotta be peoplewho are brave enough to be like,
you know what?
I'm gonna talk.
And you if you wanna cancel me,go for it.

(13:00):
You want to try to censor me, gofor it.
You wanna try to police me, gofor it.
But I don't give a fuck and I'mstill going to talk.
Even if it's bad, even if youthink it's wrong, even if you
disagree, you know what?
And if I'm wrong aboutsomething, which we were on our
last episode about empats, um, Iwill correct myself.

(13:26):
Yeah.
Like, fuck, but let me be ahuman.

SPEAKER_02 (13:30):
So let me read this page that I came across
yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
So pumped you're gonna read this.

SPEAKER_02 (13:35):
We did talk about this book in our last episode,
The Third Perspective.
Um, Brave Expression in the Ageof Intolerance.
It's by Africa Brook.
Um, if you don't know who sheis, I highly like I think that
we should post some um of herpodcasts and some of her content
for people to find her.

(13:58):
Um but uh we both read thisbook, and there's so many
nuggets of wisdom in here.

SPEAKER_00 (14:07):
So good.
Her her social media content'sgood, her book is wonderful, her
podcast interviews are amazing.
She is incredible.

SPEAKER_02 (14:16):
Like, do we do we have a crush on her?

SPEAKER_00 (14:18):
I totally have a girl crush.
I find her fascinating andbeautiful inside and out.
Yeah, she's she's she's likealmost um hypnotizing to listen
to her talk.

SPEAKER_02 (14:30):
Yes, it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 (14:32):
Yes, like she's so articulate and well spoken,
articulate, kind, and and I lovelistening to her.

SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
She's not like angry, yes.
Okay, so this is um oh, I doneed my glasses.
I'm like, I cannot read this.
God, just wait till you hit 40.
Just it happens overnight.
Um each topic feels like aminefield where one misstep can

(15:01):
lead to unintended explosions.
When these big topics arefighting for your attention at
the same time, it can feel likeyour single voice might get lost
in the noise.
But not only that, if you decideto say something, there's
usually a big worry that youwill be dragged through the
streets of social media by yourcaller if you get it wrong.
This is an over thisoverwhelming feeling is a big
reason many of us end uppressing the mute button on our

(15:24):
opinions.
This is where I begin to worry.
Why are we expecting people tobe born educated on these
topics?
Why are we anticipatingperfection, demanding the use of
language that doesn't offendanyone, and upholding an ideal
of political correctness?
The reality of being human isthat we are inherently
imperfect.
I would even go as far as to saythat every single one of us is

(15:46):
politically incorrect by nature.
Our nature includes thevulnerability of making
mistakes, the grace of growth,and the journey of learning.
When I reflect on my own life,it's a lovely jumble of rights
and wrongs, of triumphs andtribulations, and of lessons
learned both gently and harshly.
Every mistake, every misstep wasan opportunity for me to grow,

(16:07):
to realign, and to progress.
And isn't that what being humanis all about?
Chef's kiss.
Chef's kiss.
Like I love everything that shesays, but I also need everybody
to know that this book is notabout politics.
It really isn't.
This is about being brave enoughto speak up and how to share

(16:33):
your opinions and how to havedifficult conversations.
Um I think it's also necessarythat we say not everybody is
willing to be on the other endof that conversation in the same
way.
So you can't force theseconversations with people who
are unwilling to listen andcommitted to misunderstanding

(16:59):
you.

SPEAKER_00 (16:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (17:00):
And she teaches that in here as well to like use your
discernment and know when tospeak up and the difference
between like self-sabotage andself-censoring, and like just
reading the room.
Yeah.
And knowing when to speak.

SPEAKER_00 (17:18):
Something else that I like that she has said.
So, like, if somebody is, we arewanting to have these
conversations, um, and noteveryone is wanting to receive
that, um, but she talks a lotabout are you listening to try
to understand, or are youlistening to go right into the
conversation to be offended?

SPEAKER_02 (17:38):
Oh shit.

SPEAKER_00 (17:40):
And I'm like, fuck, that is very true.
And I think, you know, peopleare so stuck on their side that
if somebody um disagrees,presents um new information that
doesn't align with whatevertheir side is, that um, you

(18:02):
know, maybe wants dialogue ormore text, context with the
conversation, that there is alot of um rhetoric that shuts
the conversation down.

SPEAKER_02 (18:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (18:18):
So that the conversation is just unable to
be had.
So um I feel like a lot of usare feeling that right now.
And because we feel that we thenjust mute ourselves and just
don't use our voice and don'tshare our opinion because it
doesn't feel good to be on thereceiving end of that.

(18:40):
So it doesn't feel good to becalled a racist or you know,
classist, ageist, homophobic,fascist, fascist, whatever.
All the all the issue.
All the issue or all the obias.

unknown (18:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:56):
Um, okay, so let's get into like the first thing
that happened in and this wholecar Charlie Kirk situation,
because um, I will admit I umwas not aware of who he was
until about a year ago.
And I didn't listen to TurningPoint, but I have listened to

(19:19):
him debate several times, and Iwas always like very impressed
with the way that he debatedpeople.

SPEAKER_00 (19:32):
And can I say an emphasis on impress, even though
there were things that I waslike, I don't really agree with
you on that.
100%.
But I think we need to normalizestill being able to listen to
somebody or hear somebody whenwe don't agree, because maybe
you're gonna come out of it andbe like, oh, you know, you did
make a fair point on that.

SPEAKER_02 (19:52):
Right.
I don't agree with everythingyou said, but you did bring this
up and I didn't think about itthat way.

SPEAKER_00 (19:57):
And it's still good for me to listen to opposing
ideas because that is how I'mgonna evolve and challenge my
brain.
But yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:11):
Well, so I think that um a lot of people right
now are are kind of like stuckin this like echo chamber of
voices that that they agreewith, and so they find it very,
very hard to believe that likeother people think differently
when it's like actually no morepeople think differently than
you realize.
They've just been silenced, andyour echo chamber is just loud

(20:35):
with voices that you agree with.
Because if they do disagree andthey post something or say
something, you immediatelydelete them or block them or
mute them.
So wouldn't that only likefurther isolate your echo
chamber of only hearing frompeople who think like you, speak

(20:57):
like you?
Like you're creating more of ahole.

unknown (21:03):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (21:04):
Um and I've I am saying that because I've caught
myself doing the same thing.
Yeah.
Muting people that that postsomething that I don't agree
with, or deleting them because Idon't want to support their page
anymore.
Um, I have done a lot less ofthat in the past year.
If anything, I have gotten morecurious about where they stand

(21:24):
and I will listen if I if ifsomebody says they're
controversial, I want to hear itfor myself.
I do too.
And that makes peopleuncomfortable because they're
like, why would you listen tohim?
Why would you support him in anyway?
Like every listen is is asupport.
And I'm like, I want to hear itfor myself.
I want to hear it and use my owndiscernment and form an opinion

(21:48):
based on what I believe happenedin that conversation, not what
the headlines say, not what thememes are saying, not what
you're saying, not the articlethat you read where he was
quoted and it was out ofcontext.
Because I think people arelosing their minds over context

(22:09):
right now and misunderstandingthings over things that he said
and things that he said arebeing very misquoted, and if
they're even if they're quoted,they're still being used out of
context.
And I need to, I feel like Ineed to say this so many times.
Context absolutely matters.

SPEAKER_00 (22:32):
Didn't you see a post where um somebody said it
didn't matter?

SPEAKER_02 (22:39):
I've seen several posts.

SPEAKER_00 (22:41):
Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (22:42):
I have seen several posts where they're like, you
guys are saying we're using hisquotes out of context, but like,
then don't say the things.
Like you shouldn't be sayinganything that can be used out of
context.
I'm like, that's human.
Every conversation ever,something that you say can be

(23:03):
misunderstood and heard and usedout of context to spin the
narrative.

SPEAKER_00 (23:09):
A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_02 (23:10):
In every situation, in every conversation.
There was one guy who was justlike, if he was such a good
debater, then how are we misshow are we misunderstanding his
quotes?
Like you guys keep saying hewas, you know, they were used
out of context, but like if hewas such a good debater, it
wouldn't have been used out ofcontext.
You're missing the context.

(23:31):
Right.
Like it's driving me insane.

SPEAKER_00 (23:34):
Can you provide like an example?

SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
Yeah.
So I think the thing that like alot of people are running with
right now, and the one that likehas probably driven me crazy
crazy the most is what he saidabout empathy.
Um he's being quoted as saying,I don't have it in front of me,
so I'm like not trying tomisquote him, but do the

(23:59):
research.
Like you've probably seen it ahundred times this past few
weeks, like where empathy is amade-up new age term.
I much prefer sympathy andcompassion over empathy.
Empathy means you are feelingwhat that other person feelings
and whatever.

SPEAKER_00 (24:15):
Well, then he also said, um, Clinton used it.
It it's he he felt like it was aform of political emotional
manipulation because Clintonwould say, I know how you feel,
I know how you feel, but hecan't say that because he
doesn't know how you feel.

SPEAKER_02 (24:35):
Right.
So people using the part wherehe's saying like empathy is a
made-up new age term, are usingthat against him, and then
people are like, that's not thefull quote.
So then they're saying the restof it.
And I'm like, again, that's outof context because what he was
referring to when he said that,if you listen to the entire
thing, which is very hard tofind these days because people

(24:58):
are just posting clips, they'relike, Nope, he said it, he said
it, no, he said it.
Listen to the minutes before hesaid that, because that's what
he was referring to.
He was referring to it beingempathy being used as a
political tactic, a politicalweapon.
Clinton in his administrationused it to gain votes because he

(25:18):
was like, I empathize with you.
Yeah, how can he though?

SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 (25:26):
He he's never experienced the things that you
guys have exper had that thatpeople voting for him have
experienced.
Like, I'm not saying he hasn'tgone through some shit, but like
to use it as a political weaponis what he was saying.
I would much rather sympathy andcompassion.

unknown (25:43):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (25:44):
So it really grinds my gears.
Yes, because I am like thatperson who's gonna go down the
rabbit hole and and listen to itfor myself.
Well, you want the truth, nobodyelse is doing that.

SPEAKER_00 (25:56):
You want the truth, and you can still leave and be
like, okay, I did my research, Ifound the truth, and I still
disagree with him.
Like, again, the whether youagree or disagree is kind of
irrelevant.
Yeah.
And um, you know, I've seenpeople where he his his stance
on abortion.
Yeah.
And I have been somebody who myentire life have been

(26:19):
pro-choice.
Same.
And I still am.
But hearing his stances onabortion, you know, he made this
point where he said, um, youknow, I feel like it's murder,
and that's valid for him to feelthat way.
Um, and if you were a pregnantwoman and you got murdered, that

(26:41):
would be a double homicidebecause you had a baby, baby in
your belly.
So how is abortion not the samething?
I'm like, you know, I've neverthought about it that way.
I still am pro-choice, but likeit's a valid point.
It's a valid point.
And people are justifying nothaving empathy for somebody who

(27:02):
believed that.
And I'm like, where are we gonnago as human beings if we are
justifying someone gettingmurdered in front of our very
eyes because they said thingsthat they didn't agree with, and
their whole entire platform wasum to go and have dialogue with

(27:27):
people he intentionally knewwould not agree with him.
Yeah, I think that's that's kindof dangerous waters to go down.
Um, the other thing I've seen isum there's a clip of him getting
angry and he's getting off ofhis seat.
Yeah.
And he says, I'm just I'm gonnasay the word chink.

SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
He's like yelling at this guy.

SPEAKER_00 (27:50):
And I've seen it with people who I follow.
Yeah.
And they use that clip.

SPEAKER_02 (27:55):
They're like, listen to him saying this about
somebody who's Asian.
He's calling him a derogatoryterm.
Derogatory word.

SPEAKER_00 (28:02):
It's a person.

SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
That is his name.

SPEAKER_02 (28:05):
He was on the panel that day.

SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Yes, he's a Turkish American commentator, and he
would, I think they were theywere in argument and got heated
and got disagreement.
He was not calling somebody aname, he was calling someone by
their actual name.
Yeah.
And that is a fact.
Wasn't a derogatory word.

(28:27):
It wasn't a derogatory word.
So, you know, um the other thingthat he talks about that has
gotten taken taken out ofcontext is the Civil Rights Act.

SPEAKER_02 (28:39):
Yeah.
So I've seen several people saythat.
Like he didn't believe in theCivil Rights Act.
Not what he said.

SPEAKER_00 (28:46):
It's not what he said.
Um, he one, he he talked abouthow he wanted uh the black
community to focus on um, therewere a lot of fatherless homes,
and he wanted he believed inhaving everyone having like that
nuclear family, and uh, youknow, a mother and a father, and

(29:07):
and them being in the home andparenting together, and he
wanted people to, you know, getmarried and have children, and
that's okay to believe that.
I don't I don't know why that'scontroversial.
Um uh but he talked about how hebelieved that the Civil Rights
Act needed to happen, but whereit had gone and it has it has

(29:33):
gone, has taken away from theoriginal the black community.
And I don't disagree with that.
Um because now it's the CivilRights Act includes a lot of the
trans movement in on that, andum I think that it it is worth

(29:57):
questioning and having aconversation.
Um, he was saying that it wastaking away from civil rights
with the black community.
Right.
Not that he was against blackpeople.
Um, so again, I I feel like wereally throw the word racist
around and bigot around.

(30:17):
Um, and it's because of that, itgets thrown around so l loosely
with clips and and and quotestaken out of context that it's
lost its meaning.
Um, and I don't, I don't, Idon't like that.
So, like I said, the point isnot whether you agree with him
or disagree with him.
The point is that like we areallowed to disagree with people

(30:40):
and still treat them like humanbeings.

SPEAKER_02 (30:44):
I think another thing to say, I think a lot of
people do feel like they're verywell informed.
They're like, no, I read I readthis article and it did show
clips of him saying this.
And again, I think that's whereit's like if you think that your
wherever you are getting yourinformation from isn't

(31:05):
affiliated with a political sideand their narrative is very,
very different, like you have alot of trust, my friend.
Yeah, you have a lot of trust inwhat they're telling us.
I saw something the other day,and this like kind of like made
so much sense to me.
Um she's an actress, she playedin the good place, she did an

(31:29):
interview where she said, youknow, what's crazy is I think
that like there's so much dividebecause we think we're all
seeing the same thing and havingvery different reactions to it,
when in reality we're seeingcompletely different stories
about the same event about thesame event, we're seeing very

(31:51):
different sides and verydifferent narratives, and we're
having very different reactionsto the same event.
We're not seeing the samestories, we're we're not.
That's something I have likerealized a lot this past year
because I have removed my like Idon't watch the news.

(32:13):
Yeah, like I'm not readingheadlines.
If I see one pop up, I'm gonnago and dig and figure out like
whatever what other people aresaying about it.
I'm gonna find the originalcontent.
Um, I don't know.
It just, it just it irks mebecause it's like you but you're
trusting this news outlet who'svery, very politically driven to

(32:38):
put out stuff that aligns withthe side.

SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
Right.
Well, so I see a lot, well, youwatch Fox News, and I'm like,
okay, I don't watch like they'resaying I'm not in this
conversation.
Right, right, right.
But this person watches FoxNews, and I'm like, okay, but
you watch CNN.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (33:00):
Like Can I tell you something somebody said to me?

SPEAKER_00 (33:03):
Two birds of the same feather, you know, they're
just opposite.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (33:09):
They said, I do watch both sides of the news.
I just refuse to watch Fox Newsbecause they lie.
I was like, wait, what?
Wait, what?
You don't think the other oneslie?
Right.
You don't think the other oneslie?

(33:29):
Yeah.
I'm not saying you should listento Fox News or CNN.
I'm saying there is a truthsomewhere between the two, and
it is not on either side.
Right.
You gotta find it, you gottafind like nonpartisan, like
journalists, independentjournalists.
You've got to find people whoaren't being bought and paid
for.
Um breaking points is is a goodone.

(33:52):
I just told you about that theother day.
It's like two people.
Um, one is Republican, one isDemocrat, and they meet in the
middle and they have theseconversations.
They're not bought by a, they'renot sponsored by anybody, and
they want to keep it that waybecause they don't want anybody
telling them what they can andcan't say.

SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
I love that.

SPEAKER_02 (34:12):
I also want to recognize that there have been a
lot of people who have beencanceled from or fired from
their jobs because they don'twant to say what they're being
told to say anymore.
Don't you have a list of that?

SPEAKER_00 (34:29):
I do.
And these are people on the leftand the right who have been
canceled by their own party.
Um Andrew Yang, Tulsi Gabbard,Tommy Larin.
Tommy Larin was um a Republicancommentator.
She still is, but she gotcanceled because she was

(34:50):
pro-choice.
So the right didn't like that,and they canceled her.
Um Tulsi, did I say TulsiGabbard?
RFK, Tucker Carlson, CandaceOwen, Marjorie Taylor Green, Joe
Rogan, Elon Musk.
So Joe Rogan.
I've seen this a lot.

(35:11):
People will say the left needstheir own Joe Rogan.
Someone like Joe Rogan, okay?
And I'm like, y'all had him.
His name was Joe Rogan.
Uh, he was a huge Bernie Sanderssupporter.

SPEAKER_02 (35:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (35:26):
Big Bernie guy.
Y'all didn't like him.
You know, people, we've gotten alot of hate because the person
that we have most aligned withhas been RFK.
RFK was on the left, you guys.
He was a Democrat.
Yeah.
Tulsi Gabbard.
Also loved Tulsi Gabbard.

(35:47):
I liked Tulsi Gabbard back in2020.
Yeah.
Um, she debated Kamala, and Ithought she destroyed her.
Um got canceled.

SPEAKER_02 (36:02):
Because she's anti-war?
Yeah.
Like that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 (36:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's it's it's both sides, isthe point that I think we are
trying to make.
And there has to be some voicesin the middle willing to call
out the tribalism, the echochambers, the hypocrisy um of

(36:28):
both.
Both sides.
And I think that's okay.
Um, and we kind of came intothis knowing like this was gonna
ruffle some feathers a littlebit, but you know, this podcast
name, see you on the other side,I think it's the meaning has
become elevated because of wherewe are in our country right now,

(36:50):
and um what we are seeing justgo down just on the internet,
this this hate and division andand you know, I don't know what
we're gonna what we're gonna doabout it and what our role and
our purpose is and what we'regonna do with our voice.

SPEAKER_02 (37:12):
But so you talked, didn't you talk a little bit in
the last episode about likewhataboutism?
Yeah.
You did.
Um I've seen this, it keepshappening.
It it literally keeps happeningbecause it happened, um happened
with Charlie Kirk.

(37:32):
The oh, you're gonna post aboutthis.
Well, what about what about thekids who are the mass shootings
in in the schools?
Like, okay, that's a separateissue.

SPEAKER_00 (37:43):
What was the post that you saw the other day?
It was something about was itabout Tylenol or autism?
And then it was like, well, whatabout mass shootings?

SPEAKER_02 (37:52):
Yes.
That's what I'm saying.
Like it happened again, and sonow it's like it's like, oh, you
all speak up when it comes toTylenol, but I didn't see any of
you all talking about these massshootings.
Like it's like, what about this?
What about this?
We can't fucking keep up.

SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
Yeah, we can't keep up, and I and I do want to say,
like, I have had a harder timewith talking to people on the
left.
Um, having these types ofconversations, I've actually had
an easier time to peep talkingto people on the right.

SPEAKER_02 (38:26):
Um that's shocking to me because I've witnessed it
too.

SPEAKER_00 (38:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:32):
It's been sh incredibly shocking.

SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
Yeah.
So um a lot of conversationswhere I've, again, this is a
party that I've once belonged towhere I started to say things
about, you know, um, censoringRFK, um, not feeling like we get

(38:56):
to have a choice in theprimaries.
Um, and Kamala just got it lyingabout um Biden's cognitive um
health.
Um again, I feel like the lefthas become the party where it's

(39:18):
now kind of like the elites andpro-big pharma and pro-big
corporation.
Corporate pro-big corporation.
And so, like, again, it's likeif you're saying, I want
everyone of all socioeconomicbackgrounds to be able to have
access to, you know, cleanwater, whole and nutrient-dense

(39:40):
foods, that's like a self-care.
Yeah, that's a that's aright-wing thing.
Um, but when I've had theseconversations with people on the
left, it's been, well, Trump didthis.
Well, what about Trump?
What about Trump?
And I'm like, I'm talking aboutmy concerns and my issues with
the party that I belong to thathad nothing to do with Trump.

(40:03):
It had nothing to do withRepublicans, it had nothing to
do with conservatives, it had todo with my party that I once
felt aligned with, that I nolonger feel aligned with.
Um, and where I'm going withthis is I feel like kind of
tying back to the horseshoetheory, the hatred for him has

(40:24):
been so strong that it's reallyhard to have a conversation
because that is the only focus.
And if you say something aboutRFK, it's like, oh, that quack,
okay, he um he killed a bear anddid this and he thought he had a

(40:48):
worm in his head.
Yeah, and I'm just like, it's Ican't Which by the way, do
people not know that parasitesare real?
But I'm like, I can't talkbecause I'm gonna say this Trump
derangement syndrome, and I'mgonna say RFK derangent
derangement syndrome is sofucking real.

(41:12):
And I'm sure Kamala derangementsyndrome is so real.
Yeah.
But it is the person that youare you hate so much, it's
gotten to the point where you'vebecome what you hate.

(41:32):
And um I have this quote whetheryou're shouting in the name of
equality or tradition, if youcan't tolerate disagreement, if
you silence and dehumandehumanize, you're not on the
opposite ends of a spectrum.
You are holding hands at thebottom of the horseshoe.
And it's it's been it's beenfrustrating to have these types

(41:56):
of conversations because, again,I feel like doing those things,
the whataboutism, well, Trumpdid this, um, you're a racist,
you're a bigot, you'rehomophobic, you're transphobic.
It has been a beautiful way toshut down conversation and to
shut down people and to policepeople.

SPEAKER_02 (42:15):
It's silencing a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 (42:18):
And it's I think it's a form of narcissism and
manipulation.
So again, you think that he isthat.
You think that Trump is that,and you might not be wrong, but
you are doing it too.
So there are people who arelike, well, he should be doing

(42:41):
this and they should be doingthis, and you should be doing
this.
And I'm like, Meanwhile, if yourhouse and your life is a
dumpster fire.
Yeah.
But you think you have all ofthe answers to all the world
problems, to all the worldproblems where you have to shut
down every conversation.
Meanwhile, like, I know you arenot okay.

SPEAKER_02 (43:03):
I would not trade lives with you, right?

SPEAKER_00 (43:05):
So it's it's it's hard to have those conversations
with those types of people whoare very angry and very
emotional, and I think again,dysregulated.
When you come from that place,like your vision may not be as
clear as what you think it is.
And that's a fact, though.

SPEAKER_02 (43:24):
Yeah, that is like a psychological fact that when you
are so angry and spiraling aboutstuff, your amygdala is
overpowering your brain.
You are not thinking clearly orrationally or critically, like

(43:45):
you are acting out of anger andfear and irration, and there's
no like that is a psychologicalfact.

SPEAKER_00 (43:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (43:58):
Like that's not like a political statement.

SPEAKER_00 (44:02):
Right, right.
Can we get into the Tylenol ofit all?

SPEAKER_02 (44:06):
Yeah, the Tylenol of it.

SPEAKER_00 (44:07):
Because I want to talk about the fact that again,
it doesn't matter if you agreeor disagree, okay?
That's not the point.
But I have seen people on socialmedia with my very own eyes who
are pregnant and are downingbottles of Tylenol to prove a

(44:30):
point.
And I'm like, that is not theflex that you think it is,
because again, you are doingsomething from an emotional
place, very dysregulated place,very dysregulated place, and we
have to get to a point where weare able to hear a bad idea, an

(44:55):
idea we wholeheartedly disagreewith, and still be able to stay
grounded.

SPEAKER_02 (45:03):
There's a guy I follow who talks about this.
He was like, You guys don't seeme talk about political stuff
when it happens because I sitand wait.
I sit and wait, I let it settle,I figure out what's true, what's
not true, and I'm not gonnaspeak on it until like I am like

(45:23):
I am sure that I know what'shappening, and I am coming from
a place of like emotionalregulation.
And I I actually like I reallylove and respect that.
Like, it is okay to take a stepback before you react.
Yeah, we've been talking aboutthis from the very beginning of

(45:46):
our podcast, like how when westarted our healing journeys, we
were very reaction, like wereacted very quickly to things.
And I think that like throughall the healing that we have
done through psychedelics, itkind of gives people this break
in between the reaction wherethey have a chance to respond

(46:08):
thoughtfully and peacefully andregulated without immediately
overreacting.
So that's kind of what we'retalking about here.
Like I this whole autism Tylenolvaccine conundrum is not a

(46:30):
conspiracy theory.
I have a son on the spectrum, hewas diagnosed at eight.
This so this is like almost 10years ago.
Um, I would consider him highfunctioning.
Uh my husband high functioning.

(46:50):
Um we have had to use an IEP formy son before through COVID
because it was very difficultfor him to pass middle school.
Um, the way that we had to domiddle school with the um NTI
being home and without his like,you know, routines and schedule.

(47:13):
Um, but I know since we foundout that he was on the spectrum,
I joined Facebook groups, I readbooks, I immersed myself in
this, like in these like onlinesupport groups.
I never really participated inthem.
It was kind of like I'm gonnasit back and like gather

(47:36):
information.
Um, it was a learning experiencefor me, but a lot of these moms,
and I think this is anotherreason I never really like
participated in the groups,because a lot of these moms have
issues and very little support,and their children are very low

(47:58):
functioning, and their qualityof life, the parents' quality of
life, is has gone downhillbecause they are pouring every
ounce of themselves intosupporting their children and
picking up their lives andmoving so their children have a
better school and have betteraccess to support and are

(48:23):
quitting their job so they canstay home with their children
because no one else can, andbecause they can't go to daycare
or school.
This it like broke my heart andmade me feel guilty at the same
time that I had my own issuesbecause they didn't seem to even

(48:44):
compare to what these otherfamilies have gone through.
I know people who have childrenwho are severely autistic.
It's heartbreaking.

unknown (48:59):
Got it.

SPEAKER_02 (49:00):
Why am I getting emotional?

SPEAKER_00 (49:01):
Because it's heavy.

SPEAKER_02 (49:03):
And I've I They have been fighting for answers for so
long because this isn't the typeof cute and fun autism that
everybody is like using thesedays where they're
self-diagnosing themselvesbecause they're a little shy and
a little weird sometimes.
Like, this isn't what you see onLove on the Spectrum.

(49:24):
This is like tearing familiesapart.
Like the statistics of familieslike getting a divorce in these
families is like very highbecause there's they're having
they have a very low quality oflife.
And they would do anything fortheir children.
And so people using this like mychild's not a burden.
This isn't something that needsto be fixed.

(49:46):
It's not a there doesn't need tobe a cure for autism.
My child is beautiful the waythey are.
That's great if that's yourexperience.
I would argue the same thing,but I would also say I don't
think my child's a burden, andhe is very high on the spectrum.
But if I could do things to makehis life easier because I see

(50:07):
where he struggles, I would wantto do it.
And I would want people fightingfor that, and I would want
people asking these questions.
So, like, what's blowing my mindright now is the people who are
like making fun of this, orlike, oh god, he look at what
Trump is saying, and RFK is afucking quack, and look at what

(50:28):
he's saying.
These have been studies thathave been going on for decades.
This isn't new information.
This isn't, this isn't like it'snot political.
It shouldn't be political.
It just we happen to findsomeone who is willing to do
this digging, and he has beencalled an anti-vaxxer for years,

(50:52):
even though we have already saidhe's not necessarily anti-vax.
He is more about educatingpeople, people using their own
discernment, people askingquestions.
He wants to know why vaccinecompanies aren't being held
liable because and I'm there wasan act, uh the Vaccine Act of

(51:13):
1986 was passed where no one cansue these companies if they have
vaccine harm.
They're exempt from legalobligations, they're exempt from
legal action.
People can know that they wereinjured from a vaccine and they
can't sue these companies andthey can't be compensated, which

(51:37):
is crazy to me.
The studies aren't there enough,they're not being tested enough.
There's no placebo studies invaccine groups.
Like, so how can you be socertain that that's not one of
the causes?
Yes, not the cause, not the onlycause.

(52:00):
How can you be so certain?
And you know what's like this isalso like I have I this is what
I posted about last night.
It's infuriating because whyyou're going off.

SPEAKER_00 (52:09):
I'm loving this.
Are you no?
I'm just very proud of you.

SPEAKER_02 (52:12):
The people I have seen who have been the loudest
in attacking this are people whoA don't have children, B, are
not mothers, C they havechildren, but their children are
healthy.
So please let these mothers getanswers.

(52:34):
Like I am happy that we havesomeone who is fighting for
that.
Because if there was somethingthat you could do to change the
outcome, you are insane if youwould sit here and say you
wouldn't do it.
Put yourself in this situation,have a little empathy for the

(52:54):
people that this is likeaffecting the most.
If you think that you wouldn't,like that just it blows my mind.

SPEAKER_00 (53:03):
And I'm I'm really happy that you shared that.
Um I've seen mothers who haveeven been disappointed with
parents who have children withhigh functioning autism, and
saying, like, you know, my childis not a burden because they're

(53:24):
like, if I leave my child alonefor one second, they're not safe
to themselves.
They will spread their feces onthemselves and the walls.
They are can't communicate.
They are so frustrated that theywill literally bang their head

(53:47):
against the wall.

SPEAKER_02 (53:48):
Um have you seen there have been children who
have like gone missing and died?

SPEAKER_01 (53:54):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (53:54):
Because they have gotten out of their house.
Like this was a concern of ourswhen Gabe was little.
Like we had to put padlocks onour front door because we were
afraid that like he would likehe would he would he didn't
sleepwalk, but he would havenight terrors where he didn't
know what he was doing.
Like his like grandparents wereconcerned, like, you need to put

(54:16):
a padlock on the front doorbecause we didn't like if he
woke up and didn't know what hewas doing, like I was like, what
what if he runs out into thestreet?
Like, and this is an actualthing that has happened in so
many families.
I have witnessed something likethis happen where they have had
to put locks on their doors tokeep their kids from running
away because they're not awareof what they're doing, right?

(54:40):
So I also feel like that it'scrazy to like my my child is not
a burden, but if you are aparent at all to healthy
children, there are times yourchildren are gonna drive you
crazy.

(55:00):
And this has nothing to do withlike being on the spectrum,
nothing, but like it's it's okayto say like gosh, being a parent
is hard, and oh my gosh, havingkids is hard, and I wish this
was a little bit easier.
So if you're saying that yourchild is not a burden and
doesn't have to be fixed, likeit's a very narrow way of of

(55:23):
seeing what's actually harmingfamilies.

SPEAKER_00 (55:27):
Well, and it's you see parents who get divorced,
you see parents who they don'tthey're not able to date each
other, you see parents who haveto sleep in separate bedrooms,
you see parents who againthey're they're watching their
child have to stay in diapers,not talk, um hurt themselves,

(55:49):
hurt other people, uh, not knowwhat they're doing, never be in
a relationship, never get a job.
Um why is that offensive to say?

SPEAKER_02 (56:01):
I remember when this came out, like the first time
when they were talking aboutlike we're gonna do some, we're
gonna do some digging and we'regonna figure out what's actually
causing it.
And they were saying thesethings.
I think it was RFK like came anddid a a not a live, what is it
called, a conference and wassaying Yeah, like a press
conference.

(56:21):
Yes, thank you.
Where where there are people whoare never gonna be able to hold
jobs, they're never gonna beable to pay taxes, and that was
so offensive to people.

SPEAKER_00 (56:29):
But it's the truth.

SPEAKER_02 (56:31):
Maybe he wasn't referring to you, right?
If if you are if you consideryourself autistic or you're
somewhere on the spectrum andyou were holding down a job and
you have a family, my husband,you have a family, like he was
not talking about you.

SPEAKER_00 (56:46):
Yeah, well, and I have a former client who, you
know, she has a son that is onthe spectrum, and he is, you
know, nonverbal, and they havethe finances where they can give
him the support that he needs,and they still struggle so much.

(57:11):
Think about the families whodon't have the support, who
don't have the finances to carefor their child, who they can't
have a parent to stay home withthis child.

SPEAKER_02 (57:26):
Like that they don't live in an area with like good
ABA programs, or you know thoseare the parents who are
screaming, yeah, help me.

SPEAKER_00 (57:36):
And you know, you you may not agree with Tylenol,
but what is wrong with beinglike, all right, this might be a
factor.
So vaccines might be a factor,the environment might be a
factor, our food might be afactor.
Yes, genetics are also a factor,but there are also a lot of

(58:01):
these other things too.
And like I don't know, I justthe to watch the dismissal of
these parents who again I'm I'mseeing are like literally
screaming like, no, we needhelp, we need answers.
This isn't right, like there'ssomething like very wrong here.

SPEAKER_02 (58:21):
Like and they're they're labeled anti-vaxxers
because they question it.
They question like what whatwhat happened, you know, after
my child got his 18-month shotsand I saw them digress.
Like, why are they being labeledanti-vaxx crazy hippies and also

(58:41):
for noticing a difference intheir child with their own eyes?
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:46):
I was talking to um, I I tell you about her, uh, a
doctor, and and she she saw itin her nephew where he was two
years old, and he was talkingand all of these things, and
then he just completelyregressed.
Like she is a doctor, and shehas questions.
A lot of doctors do wrong withthat.

(59:08):
And if you see a graph of the USand Canada compared to other
countries, I mean it's it's wildto see how prevalent it is here
compared to other countries.
Why is I wish we could have aconversation?

SPEAKER_02 (59:30):
Why can't we ask these questions?
Yeah, why can't we ask thesequestions?
You know, another thing likepeople are like up in arms
about, and and I've seen thisposted a few times, RFK is not a
medical expert.
Show of hands, does anybody knowout of the last Secretary of

(59:52):
Health and Human Services, isthat what it is, Health and
Human Services?
Out of the last 10.
How many have been in themedical field?

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:03):
Can I break it down?

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:05):
Go for it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:06):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:07):
Because people saying like he's not qualified.
He's not qualified for thisposition.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:12):
Okay.
The one before RFK, XavierSerra, Democrat, lawyer and
politician.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:20):
Not a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:22):
Not a doctor.
Alex M.
Azar, lawyer.
Not a doctor.
Tom Price, he was a Republicanthat served under Donald Trump's
first term and just only in2017.
I don't know what happened tohim.
If he probably got canceled.
Yeah.
He was a physician.

(01:00:42):
He was an orthopedic surgeon.
Served in private practice andacademic medicine.
Person before him.
Sylvia Matthews Burrell,Democrat, experienced executive
in government and nonprofit.
Not a doctor.
Kathleen Sibelis, politicianwith executive and public

(01:01:03):
administration background, not adoctor.
Mike Levitt served under GeorgeBush.
Political administrator wasgovernor of Utah.
Tommy Thompson also served underBush.
Experienced in state government,governor of Wisconsin.
Donna Shalala, Democrat,academic administrator.

(01:01:25):
Yeah.
Louis Sullivan.
Another physician.
And that was under that wasunder George H.W.
Bush.
So not even George W.
Bush.
Yeah.
His dad.
89 to 93.
So there's out of 10, there'stwo.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:41):
There's been two.
One only served one term.
I would love to do a job.
One only served one year.
One year, one year.
Not even one term.
One year.
I would love, I will do myresearch and I will figure out
why he didn't finish out histerm under Trump the first time.
Um, because that's interesting.
That's what everybody's saying.
But you know what I would argueis that if you listened, and and

(01:02:03):
this is the first time I everheard RFK speak ever, ever, was
on Joe Rogan's podcast.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:09):
Oh, and people hate Joe Rogan or refuse to listen to
him.
Why?

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:12):
Because he has people on who are controversial.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:16):
And he has people on of all sides.
He argues with his guests.
Yes.
Can we normalize that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:24):
Can we normalize that?
Like, I don't really care thatmuch for Joe Rogan.
I will listen when he hassomeone on who's interesting.
Who's interesting.
Yeah.
Sometimes he annoys the fuck outof me.
Right.
But I'm not there for him.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:40):
Right.
You're there for his guests.
I'm there for his guests.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:43):
I'm there to listen to all kinds of different
people.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:46):
All kinds of different opinions.
I listened to his interview withDonald Trump.
I didn't.
I listened to his interview withBernie Sanders.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:51):
The Donald Trump one, both of those actually were
hard to listen to.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:54):
Yes, yes, they're both painful.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:56):
The RFK one was fucking fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:01):
People don't.
A lot of people who I've noticedwho hate him will not even
listen to him.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:12):
It's it's I think a lot of people say it's because
of his voice, and I hate that.
It makes me angry.
Yeah.
Because you're missing a very,very good conversation with
someone.
Yes.
You're missing out onunderstanding who this person

(01:03:33):
is.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:34):
And again, you can still leave the conversation and
disagree with him.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:38):
That's not the point.
Yes, absolutely.
Uh within 10 minutes of thisepisode, I re-listened to this
because I hadn't listened tothis since it first came out.
Um, within 10 minutes, he'stalking about how he got into
these vaccine studies.
Like back in like the 90s, early2000s.
Um, he's an environmentallawyer.

(01:04:00):
He has been doing thisenvironmental stuff for decades,
has won several billion dollarsin lawsuits against big
corporations, um, pollutants inthe water.
Uh, Lake Hudson is now a cleanplace because he fought against

(01:04:24):
pollutants being put in thewater.
He saw what it was doing to thepeople around the water.
Um he knew a lot about mercurypoisoning.
A lot about mercury poisoning.
That was like a lot of his caseswere were about this particular
thing.
And my husband's in law school.

(01:04:50):
Like, you think I go down rabbitholes?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:53):
They go down rabbit holes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:54):
They have to.
It's how they win theirarguments.
They have to present facts uponfacts upon facts, resource after
resource.
Like he was like, you becomethis is what RFK said, you
become somewhat of an expert inthese areas because you spend
months doing this research andcollecting evidence and

(01:05:16):
gathering information.
So he knew so much about mercurypoisoning.
And he would go and have thesetalks, and and these women would
follow him.
Like these like droves of womenwould borderline harass him.
Please, please, please look intothese mercury, mercury cases and

(01:05:37):
vaccines.
Like my child was was harmed bythis vaccine and nobody's
listening to me.
Like, you know so much aboutmercury.
Please will you look into thisfor us?
And he was like so against it atfirst.
And finally, he said, like,somebody came and left him like
an 18-inch stack of studieswhere these mothers had done the

(01:05:58):
research themselves, and theywere like, Look at all these
studies that we have that thatare pointing to vaccines and
mercury.
I want you to look into this,please.
And so he finally read it and hewas like, What the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:11):
You know what I think of when you're talking
about these moms?
What?
That is some Cali fuckingenergy.
Yeah.
Because it doesn't matter whatanyone else is saying, they will
fight tooth and nail for theirchildren.
That's some Cali shit.
Why are we so emotional overthis?
Because I I feel I feel forthese parents.

(01:06:34):
Yeah.
I feel for these parents.
I feel that it's this politicalthing.
And I feel for them that it hasaffected their quality of life,
their children, their childrenwho are not autistic.
Um, and just to watch thegaslighting and this dismissal
of it from regular people andfrom people who are experts,

(01:06:57):
it's just disheartening.
Because I I think that thisshould be something where we
really should be coming togetherto help these people.
And I hate that.
So anywho.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:09):
Yeah.
So it's it's it's it'sfrustrating because people are
like, he doesn't know what thefuck he's talking about.
I would argue he knows so muchmore than you know.

unknown (01:07:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:21):
You're you're you're you literally look like an
imbecile trying to argue withthis man.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:28):
And and he did like he did take on these families.
He he did take them on and hewon.
And it was there was mercurythat was harming children in the
vaccines.
They removed the mercury, likeit was doing a lot of damage.
Like, like this is uh factualinformation.

(01:07:49):
And to think that like it's allgood now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:56):
This man has been on to this, he has been on their
asses for decades.
This isn't a fucking conspiracytheory, and this isn't new
information.
He has been fighting for theseparents ever since.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:10):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:10):
So yeah, that's that's my two cents.
Yeah.
Like maybe he is an expert inthis area.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:17):
Right, right, right.
And maybe just be open to opento listening to what he has to
say.
Um, the other point that Iwanted to talk about, where I
don't we've we've touched alittle bit on it um in previous
seasons where we've been talkingabout like SSRIs and and benzos
and just big pharma.

(01:08:40):
I don't think that we realizehow brainwashed we are.
And so I kind of want to go intothat of what I've said before
was that we are us and NewZealand are the only two
countries in the world who allowpharma commercials.

(01:09:03):
Now think about that for asecond.
It is blasted everywhere.
So it is blasted.
It is the top commercial alongwith um with car commercials,
and um I'll have to find theother one.
Is alcohol one of them?

(01:09:24):
I think it's cars and alcoholand fast food.
I see so much so I want you, Iwant you to think about that for
example commercials.
Yeah.
Again, the commercials you areseeing, the top commercials you
are seeing, cars, alcohol, fastfood, big pharma.

(01:09:48):
Just sit on that.
Okay, so um this has beenhappening since 1997.
In New Zealand, it's been sincethe 1980s.
But the difference with NewZealand, it is a much smaller
market.
Okay.

(01:10:08):
So um, so for the US, it'senormous.
Uh, the US spends billions peryear on these ads.
It is one of the largestcategories on TV.
Like I said, it's up there withcars, fast food, alcohol.
Um the style of the way thatthey do it compared to New

(01:10:31):
Zealand.
We do like it's you know, peoplerunning around and having so
much fun and playing with theirkids and like frolicking in a
field.
It's so crazy to me.
Where in New Zealand it's notthat, it's just informational.
The ads are shorter with plainerpresentation of risk.

(01:10:53):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:55):
So um our commercials are living their
best lives.
100%.
Well, the fucking side effectsat the end are like may cause
suicide and homicidal ideation,may cause constipation, may
cause diarrhea.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:10):
Maybe diarrhea may cause um heart failure.
Heart failure, may cause liverdamage, may cause like so again,
like okay.
So the other thing, most westernmedicine doctors here in the US
are for pharma.
You go to a doctor, you'redepressed, they're not gonna

(01:11:33):
talk to you about like whattrauma do you have?
Why are you sad?
What's your home life like?
You know, what's your stress,whatever.
Here's Zoloft, here's WellButrin, here's Prozac.
Okay.
In New Zealand, this is a muchstronger public debate.
Many New Zealand doctors, healthgroups, and politicians argue

(01:11:54):
that pharma ads confuse patientsand undermine trust.
Um, several governments havetried to ban them, but lobbying
has kept them alive.
So again, there are doctors,even though there's
pharmaceutical ads in NewZealand, it's on a much smaller
scale, much more informationalthan like, you know, like

(01:12:15):
fucking picking fucking flowersand shit while talking about
whatever, you know, medication.
And doctors fight this.
Here it is very normalized, andit's the only country in the
world where it's so normalized.

(01:12:37):
So I just want people to sit onthat.
And um yeah, the volume in theUS is much, much different in
New Zealand.
The tone in the US is muchdifferent than New Zealand, and
the public opinion in the US ismuch, much different than New
Zealand.

(01:12:58):
Um yeah, so it's just somethingworth thinking about, worth
sitting with, worth looking intothe way that we have been
programmed since 1997 with justcommercials, and maybe how this

(01:13:19):
has brainwashed us a little bitto where we think it's normal,
but the fact is it's not, it'snot normal anywhere fucking
else.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:32):
Okay, I just feel like once upon a time you posted
some statistics about that,about how much money, how much
these ad companies pay theselike channels to post their ads,

(01:13:52):
and it's a it's an insaneridiculous amount of money.
And I think we should find thatand come back to it because I'm
not gonna lie, I think thiscould be an entire episode.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:02):
Oh, and if someone knows anyone who would be
willing to talk to us about anyof these things, please send
them our way.
We've got some we've got somegreat people on the back burner
who I'm very excited about, butlike these are things that I

(01:14:24):
think we should talk about.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:26):
I there are some things I didn't know.
There's another Joe Roganpodcast I listened to with like
Brigham.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:33):
I love Brigham Young.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:35):
Yes, who was a big pharmaceutical rep rep.
Um, and finally realized likewhat he was doing was like
wrong.
And he like basically is thiswhistleblower for big pharma and
big insurance companies.
And he is very outspoken abouthow fucked up the medical and

(01:15:00):
pharmaceutical and insurancecompanies are, how it is
literally just about money andnot about health.
And I think it's easy for likelike people will say that, be
like, oh yeah, they don't careabout our health.
But like, no, when you hear himtalk about the inside of what's
going on and the shit that hehas done and the stuff that he
has seen.

(01:15:22):
And I witnessed it firsthandjust a few months ago.
Like, just how very, very quick.
I haven't had a primary carephysician in 10 years, probably
longer.
I can't even remember the lasttime I saw one.
Same.
Like, I don't go to the doctorthat often.

(01:15:43):
I've started, I've I would sayfor like 10 years, I've been
more holistic than than not.
Um, it takes a lot for me to bemedicated.
Um, I say that because I I wason Zoloft um after I had my last
child, so that that was eightyears ago.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:03):
Can you also share that I I don't think most people
know this that to get off of anantidepressant takes two years?
Yeah, nobody knows that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:14):
We can get into that.
Actually, I kind of want to savethis story.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:20):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:20):
Can this be a can to be continued?
Sure.
Sure.
Because it it could just keepgoing if I start.
But let I will just say I Ifinally caved.
I found a primary carephysician.
Um and within 30 minutes, shewas trying to put me on four
different medications that Ikept pushing back and saying no

(01:16:43):
on.

unknown (01:16:44):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:45):
I walked out of that place and felt very defeated and
felt like I had never witnessedanything like that before.
I knew it happened, but it I cansee how if you're not aware of
it, you're like, oh, they'rejust trying to help me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:01):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:02):
And now I'm like on the on the hunt for a very
holistic doctor.
So if anybody knows I'm gonna,I've got several leads.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:10):
Well, and I think there's a time and a place for
Western medicine.
If I break a bone and I needsurgery, I think Western
medicine is obviously the way togo.
Um I don't think she knew I haddone my research on a lot of
this stuff.
And I think I think we are usedto getting gaslight, gaslit by
um doctors and experts.
And I would say that there isprobably a strong argument,

(01:17:32):
which it that's another rabbithole I would like to go down is
Rockefeller, um and the wholeWestern medicine and how that
started.
Um, but I think that there is astrong argument that some of the
smartest people that weconsider, like doctors and
experts like that, are also someof the most indoctrinated.

(01:17:56):
Uh yeah.
So like it's I think it's okayto push back.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:02):
You see common practice for doctors to learn
holistic medicine, and that wasremoved.
Until Rockefeller.
You know the story?
I do.
I don't.
That's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Until Rockefeller so happens tobe a billionaire.
What do you know?
Wow.
Yeah, and then started teachingit.
You know what's funny?

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:24):
You know, I think we're like giving people a
glimpse right now into like whatour actual conversations have
been like over the past fewyears that we have been like,
yeah, we can't say this stuffout loud.
Like we'll get fucking canceled.
You know what?
Cancel us.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:41):
That's okay.
We're okay with it.
Yeah, we're okay with it.
There is a there's a part of methat the word Come at me, bro.
Kinda we can say there there isthis part where it's like, okay,
you can cancel me.
Like you can you can try.
You can you can take a clip ofsomething I said.

(01:19:04):
Um, like a I'll own it.
I'll I'll own that maybe I saidsomething wrong.
We do not claim to be experts.
We don't claim to be perfect.
We don't claim to be perfect.
We will maybe change our mind.
We have on several things.
We have on several things.
So it's like, you want to cancelme, go right ahead.

(01:19:27):
Like that honestly kind of likemotivates me to say things that
people, other people are scaredto say.
Like, okay, I'll go be at homewith my family.
I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:41):
Can we can we talk about what this is right now
collectively?
I think people are calling thislike the Charlie Kirk
experience.
It's like this movement wherepeople are like, all right, you
want to say I'm racist?
I don't care anymore.
Yeah, you're you're committed tomisunderstanding me.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:01):
You're committed to making me out to be the villain.
That part.
You are committed tomisunderstanding me.
So anything I say is going torub you the wrong way because
you are listening to beoffended.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:13):
It's like, it's like when you say, like, anything you
can and say can and what is it?
Hang on.
What a police officer say, whatis it, the Miranda rights?
You can anything you say can andwill be used against you.
Use it, use it, go for it.

unknown (01:20:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:28):
Cause and and like I'm I'm allowed to make
mistakes.
I'm I'm allowed to get thingswrong.
We all are.

unknown (01:20:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:20:37):
Um, and I think that like what happened with Charlie
is absolutely horrific, but Ithink more and more people are
like standing up and speakingout because what happened gave
us the fucking balls to do it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:56):
Well, it's like COVID.
As awful as it was, some peoplewoke up.
Yeah.
This, Charlie Kirk, obviouslyhorrific.
Whatever side of the fenceyou're on, I don't give a shit
about that.
People woke up.
I think there is happening.

(01:21:17):
There is incredible value rightnow in authentic
self-expression.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:26):
I don't know how we close with anything other than
that.
What do we do?
Um if you heard this episode, itmeans you're part of our inner
circle.
Maybe one day we'll be brave andput it out there for everyone

(01:21:47):
else.
Um, I think that clips wouldprobably be great, but but you
know.
Right now, we appreciate youguys.
Um I hope you learned somethingfrom this.
Um, and what do we say now?
Stay open, be curious.

(01:22:07):
Um, we'll see you guys on theother side.
Bye.