This episode explores the challenges account executives face in navigating complex sales and how Pod aims to address these issues with AI-powered solutions. Patrick Monnot, CEO of Pod, shares insights on sales effectiveness, the importance of real-time guidance, and the evolving landscape of AI in sales.
• Discussing the distinct challenges faced by AEs
• Highlighting the difference between productivity and effectiveness
• Exploring the value of real-time guidance and insights
• Addressing the market gap for AE-focused solutions
• Measuring ROI through improved sales performance
• The importance of hiring the right talent for growth
• Insights into future trends in AI adoption in sales
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Recruitment: www.mindhire.ai
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@seedtoexitpod
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is why I think, when you're building in the AI
space, you have to understandwhether, if you're working in a
foundational model, are you justa few months away from having a
bigger player launchingsomething better, or do you have
a different positioning?
In our case, yes, we're an AIenabled solution, we're not a
foundational builder.
So I think the value in ourmoat and our differentiation is
(00:22):
in the application of thesemodels for very, very specific
use cases, delivering very clearand tangible enterprise value
for companies.
So that's a bit more defensible.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome to today's episode of Seed to Exit.
I'm Rhys Keck and today I'mjoined by Patrick Mana, founder
and CEO of Pod.
Patrick started at McKinsey,later became the director of
product and biz ops at Zinnierand is now leading Pod, an
AI-powered workspace designed toenhance productivity for B2B
sales teams.
So today we're going to talk alittle bit more about product
evolution how do you balanceiteration with scalability,
(00:57):
product and go-to-marketstrategy, ai technology,
leadership and personal insights, as well as some of Patrick's
advice for inspiringentrepreneurs.
Really excited for you tolisten.
Let's go ahead and get started.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Welcome to Seed to Exit, the podcast where we
uncover the stories, strategiesand insights that power the
startup ecosystem.
I'm your host, rhys Keck,founder of MindHire, a talent
acquisition firm specializing inhelping startups build
exceptional teams.
Each week, I sit down withfounders, investors and industry
leaders to explore the journeysbehind iconic companies.
Firm specializing in helpingstartups build exceptional teams
.
Each week, I sit down withfounders, investors and industry
leaders to explore the journeysbehind iconic companies and
(01:29):
game-changing ideas.
Whether you're building,investing or just curious about
what it takes to succeed in thestartup world, I want this
podcast to be your go-toresource for actionable insights
and inspiring conversations.
Now, if you enjoy the show,please don't forget to subscribe
, leave a review or share itwith your network.
Your support means the worldand really helps bring more
(01:50):
incredible conversations to life.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Patrick thanks for coming on.
Very excited to be here.
Thank you for having me,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So I'm excited to talk to you.
I know we've been connected onLinkedIn for a while.
I've seen a lot of your postsjamming out just around
different aspects of salesgo-to-market product, so really
excited to dive into some moreof your knowledge with you today
.
So, before we get into things,tell me a little bit more about
Pod, your inspiration forstarting the company and some of
the traction you've gotten sofar.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, so at Pod we're a pipeline coaching tool for
B2B sales team.
So pretty much my whole careerI've been at the intersection of
product and go-to-market,working directly with account
executives.
In my last gig so doing thecold calls, the demo calls, the
qualification calls I got achance to work hand-in-hand with
AEs and understand a bit oftheir pain points and ultimately
(02:42):
, what I saw as being one of thebiggest blockers, biggest thing
I saw at the end of the day isa lot of account executive make
mistakes managing their pipelineand lose deals because they
lack the know how and theguidance to know how to push
deals forward Right.
They basically have a lot ofinformation scattered all over
the place and very limitedguidance.
They're lucky they get 30minutes a week with their
manager.
(03:02):
So what we're Pod is prettysimple we're trying to help them
to manage their pipelinesmarter and we do so by giving
them real-time selling guidance,so connecting with all their
different data and then helpingthem to understand what are
specifically the deals that theyshould prioritize and then what
are the tactical and tangiblenext best action they can take
to close deals faster,ultimately hitting their quota
(03:24):
and getting to the president'sclub.
So, yeah, we're a C-stagestartup.
So we've raised a little over$3 million US so far.
And you know, we've relauncheda new version of Pod a few
months back and now we're kindof hitting the market, working
with a few hundreds of differentaccount executives across 100
plus different companies to helpthem be their best selves, so
to speak.
So that's the gist of it.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Awesome.
So what specific pain points interms of the sales workflow are
you addressing?
Because I know you mentionedthat you know issues with
prioritization, not knowing howto push things forward.
Why is that a problem?
Is it a training problem?
Is it just not having dataavailable to them in the right
way?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
There's a few different things.
The thing with sales is thatit's very convoluted.
Right At the end of the day,it's very convoluted, but also
very straightforward in terms ofthe golden metric.
The thing that matters at theend of the day is are you
closing a deal or not?
And I think what we realize isthat there's a lot of attention
put around productivity in thisspace, right?
So how can I, you know, do someadmin work as efficiently as
(04:31):
possible?
How can I get leads as easilyas possible?
How do I make sure that I canautomate this mundane task or
that one?
And there's nothing wrong withthose.
But I think that, at the end ofthe day, what we truly believe
is that it's not because you'regetting back five to 10 hours
every single week from nothaving to do as much admin work
(04:51):
that you're going to spend five,10 more hours selling or you're
going to do any more betterselling.
So I think it comes down, atthe end, of the difference
between efficiency andeffectiveness, and although
there's a lot of attention onefficiency as a value
proposition or as a pain pointthat companies are solving for
account executive, I think thateffectiveness is more important,
(05:12):
so not increasing the quantityof work being done, but
ultimately the quality.
And I think it comes down to toanswer your question to the root
cause of what makes salesdifficult and where a lot of
reps are left to themselvesultimately, at the end of the
day and it's navigating complexsales situation.
No deals is the same.
(05:33):
They all have their differentpersonas, own dynamic, different
constraints, different concerns, different questions, different
companies, different processes,and a rep, their work is
basically to be able to navigatethat.
And today, although thereexists frameworks and
methodologies, there's a bigdifference between the theory
and the practice.
And I think what we'rerealizing is that in the moment,
(05:55):
so when a rep is in front oftheir computer about to jump on
a call, there's very littlereal-time enablement, very
limited real-time guidance.
And this is what we're lookingto provide reps.
It's like giving them thatlittle nudge, that little
insight, that littlerecommendation that'll help them
make better, faster and smarterdecisions in how they manage
their pipeline.
And, to be clear, right, wefocus on a very specific part of
(06:18):
the sales funnel.
We don't do prospecting, wedon't do forecasting, we're
focused on account executivesthat have, I don't know, 20, 25,
30 deals and are only focusedon managing their pipeline,
pushing these deals forward.
So we're not trying to boil theocean or solve all the problems
for everyone, but this problemof effectiveness is very, very
acute for AE, specifically asthey manage of pipeline.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, I think it's interesting because so many of
the sales solutions that I haveseen so far are more related to
the BDR function, as inprospecting, automation,
customization et cetera.
I don't do a ton of deep diveon sales AI tools beyond that,
but I think that that's reallymost of what I've seen.
So your solution is interestingthat it's for AEs.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
There's a lot of, I mean seen.
So your solution is interesting, that it's for AEs.
There's a lot of I mean.
The AI SDR market is very, verybusy and very noisy, and I'm
not trying to say whether I'mdoing something better or worse
than what AI SDRs are.
I think they complement eachother for every organization.
But if you put yourself into theshoes of a chief revenue
(07:26):
officer and think from a moneyperspective, you know they're
putting a lot of money intogenerating leads, a lot of money
right A lead can be.
You know the cost of acquisitionof a customer can be $1,000.
You put $100 a pop for a leadand then, once those leads are
qualified, you basically throwthem on the lap of an AE and you
(07:47):
expect them to close when inreality it's only the beginning.
So I think this is why the bestorganization understand the
necessity of building a pipelineand building funnel, but
ultimately understand that youneed to put a lot of effort in
enabling your team to close thatfunnel right, to close those
deals, and putting as mucheffort and money into that as
well.
So this is why this is where wesee the biggest white space is,
(08:11):
at the end of the day, beingable to have a percentage
improvement in the salesvelocity or a percentage
improvement in the close ratehas a very clear ROI for
organization right, it's a cleareconomic value at the end of
the day, because you just haveto close one more deal that is
worth $100,000 to you know forit to be worth it, so to speak.
So it's not about one beingbetter than the other, but
(08:33):
ultimately both of them beingimportant to think about your
funnel end to end.
And I think this is where wecome in.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
So when we think about the AEs current workflow
because you're right, I think somuch of the effort that we talk
about, even from a technologyand from the sales training, is
that BDR to AE pipeline and thenyou generally think that, like,
once you're the AE, you've madeit right, unless you want to go
into leadership.
Since we're on the subject ofAI, sdrs, some of the concerns
that I have heard are going tobe if we automate out the BDRs
(09:02):
and we sort of remove the bottomrung of the career ladder, who
then becomes the AEs?
Is that something you'rethinking about or approaching in
any way?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
It's actually a very interesting point and I'd love
to give you a fancy answer, butit's actually the first time
thinking about it that way, LikeI've been thinking about being
able to use BDRs for notnecessarily replacing them, but
getting a lot of the mundaneresearch, heavy task automated
and then get them to eitherfocus on personalization or
(09:35):
contribute in other ways.
So I never really thought aboutit in terms of a hundred percent
replacement but ultimatelyaugmentation.
But I think you have a verygood point, though Typically
that's the normal path, but Istill believe that there's a
place in the sales funnel formore junior sales rep, whether
(09:56):
it's in what we call today moretraditional BDR work cold call,
cold email etc.
Or something else.
I think there's still going tobe a place, because even if you
say an ai, sdr or bdr, I thinkwhat that has highlighted is the
fact that people still want ahuman interaction.
(10:20):
Right, they want to talk tosomeone.
There's so much content outthere that many buyer and when
you think about their journey,they're going to push out the
moment at which they're going towant to talk to someone, but at
the end of the day, they wantto speak to someone and that
person is mostly going to be aBDR.
Are you going to need as manyBDRs as before?
Probably not, but I'm never abig proponent of replacing, but
(10:45):
rather kind of augmenting.
So that's my take.
but I don't know I mean I don'tknow if you've seen or seen or
heard things differently outthere, but would be curious.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Well, yeah, it was, it was discussed.
There was an episode that wedid with um.
It was the, the guys over atbounty.
Ai is the sharp risky.
And then Matt, matt Cooley, andtheir take was going to be that
it's probably going to becomemore of a junior salesperson who
really becomes involved in thefull cycle early on, as opposed
to just doing the research andpipeline bill.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
But it's, it's just an interesting thought
experiment we, you know, wewon't know until we we find out.
Yeah, Till it's too late, right, right.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
So so let's let's talk a little bit more about the
journey of Pod so far.
So 100% understand the problemat this point.
So when did you come to realizethis was a problem?
What made you decide to foundthe company, as opposed to doing
the last role that you were in?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, well, it was actually my previous role.
I was at a Series C startup andwe had, let's speak, it was
actually my previous role.
I was at a Series C startup andwe had, let's speak, we were
underperforming from a revenueperspective and I had for a long
time wanted to start a business.
And I jumped into that problemand you know, working with the
executive team, trying tounderstand what was the
(12:01):
underlying problem with oursales process or our ICP or the
enablement, and it kind ofexposed me to this whole world
of B2B enterprise sales and tosome extent to me it was an
unknown world because I don'tthink sales behaves the same as
any other function.
It's quite unique in the typeof people that are there.
(12:22):
The incentive structure, theprocesses, the expectation, the
type of skillset is very, veryunique and I kind of fell in
love with the I said that Ithink the dual nature of the
problem I was seeing.
It's not just a technologyproblem but ultimately also a
human and behavioral and changemanagement type of problem.
(12:45):
So I really love the problem.
I spent many months trying tofix it or working on fixing it
within the organization and then, when I decided it was time for
me to go on to something else.
I knew I wanted to buildsomething.
So when I was thinking aboutdifferent ideas, this one kind
of was something that I hadfirsthand experience with and
(13:06):
that I I had a, I think, aunique insight to be able to
tackle it.
But you know the the, thejourney of a, of a founder, so
to speak, is one where you'reconsistently learning.
So I didn't have a a solid of aperspective on what was the
value proposition or the product, as as I have right now, when I
started.
(13:26):
When I started, I had an idea, Isaw a problem, I thought I had
a.
You know, I had a solution thatcould solve it.
And then, ultimately, I justspoke to hundreds, if not
thousands, of people in thesales space right, aes, bdrs,
revops, SalesOps, salesEnablement, management
Consultant, systemImplementation Providers, name
(13:47):
it and that just gave me a verygood.
It helped me to sharpen mypencil in terms of okay, well,
what is the landscape?
How are we thinking aboutsomething different than what's
out there and, ultimately,better.
And ultimately, we're prettyexcited about where we are right
now in terms of not just theproblem that we're facing and
the fact that we think it's avery important problem.
(14:08):
It's not just a surface levelgood to have problem.
We think that can ultimatelymake a big difference in how
sales teams and reps perform.
But it's evolved over time.
So yeah, but it started backthen.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
What were some of the learnings from those hundreds
of thousands of conversationsthat you maybe hadn't thought
about before?
That helped change theevolution of the product.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
There's many, many, many, many of those, but, um, I
think it there's, there's a fewof them.
I'll pick a few that I thinkare most shape the our journey.
Um, I think one is around whatI was mentioning earlier of
efficiency versus effectiveness,productivity versus
intelligence, so to speak.
We initially started with kindof building an application that
would be more competitive, withthe likes of a scratch pad or a
(15:00):
dually or a rattle that are morefocused on updating your
Salesforce faster, so to speak,and I think what we realized
over time so that was very, veryfocused on productivity right,
making your reps more productiveand what we realized over time
and ultimately that insight camefrom, started with one
discussion with a director ofrev ops and it was in middle of
(15:22):
2022 where that person told mewas like, hey, you know, we're
cutting expenses.
Me was like, hey, you know,we're cutting expenses across
the organization and I have tocut half a million dollar in
tools, and the one, the firstone I'm gonna cut is this kind
of productivity tool that we'vestarted that a's love, and I was
like, oh, wow, okay, why isthat the case?
(15:44):
Your a's love them.
You told them, you told youknow, you told them yourself
right, what he was.
What he said then was I cannotwrap my head around an roi for
that tool like I could.
It's not because your reps havea, you know, it doesn't, even
if it makes their life easier.
I don't see an roi for ourbusiness as a whole.
(16:05):
So we're going to cut thatfirst.
And I thought that was veryenlightening in the relationship
, or the perceived value ofproductivity or, you know,
reducing admin work versus theROI for a sales organization.
And that's where we decided tonot necessarily pivot but take a
slightly different direction oflike, rather than focus on
productivity, focus on kind ofintelligence insights that would
(16:29):
ultimately help to close dealsfaster and more predictably, so
to speak.
So that was a big, big, biglearning around the perceived
value of an organization.
Right, we're a B2B SaaS company.
At the end of the day, we'regoing to sell to leaders, vps of
sales, head of rev ops, etcetera, et cetera.
And if these people don'tultimately see the value or the,
(16:52):
you know the, the clear valueproposition or the value for for
the organization, it was goingto be, it was going to be tough,
right, it was going to beheadwinds the whole way.
So that was a big one.
We always thought aboutproductivity and intelligence is
coming hand in hand and westarted with productivity.
In hindsight, we probablyshould have started with these
insights first.
(17:12):
That's one.
I think.
Another one is in terms of ourgo-to-market At the very
beginning we focus on individualreps as an ideal customer
profile, going to them, enablingthem, getting them on the
platform for free, getting themstarted, kind of PLG-type motion
, right Product-like growthbottom up.
And I think what we realizedover time is that this persona,
(17:34):
although they have moredecision-making power and
flexibility to use new toolsthan other functions, so to
speak, they still don'tnecessarily remain the main
decision makers or influencersin a decision.
So shifting from a bottom-upmotion focused on AEs to a more
(17:55):
traditional top-down motionfocused on managers not
necessarily leadership, butmanagers, because they have a
clear problem awareness, becausethey have budget, because they
have kind of influence ordecision-making power, was
another big learning for us.
And obviously we're still anearly stage company.
We learn every single day butthose were two big aha moment
(18:18):
that has shaped our direction,focus, resources and what we're
doing today.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Super interesting.
So to dive a little bit deeperonto each of them.
So for the first one, whenwe're talking about ROI or lack
thereof when it comes toproductivity, how do you think
about measuring or explainingROI of the current product to
customers?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, well, I think the ultimate metric is the same
for everyone.
It's quite simple and it'saverage quota attainment.
It's your close rate, so tospeak, or are you hitting your
quota?
That's the golden metric,ultimately, that most sales tech
tools aim for, because that'sthe one metric that the whole
(19:08):
sales or revenue organization isaiming for.
But I think we like to look atkind of leading indicators that
lead to quota attainment.
So, whether that is conversionacross the funnel or the overall
sales velocity so rather thantypically closing a deal in four
(19:29):
months, you'll close it in twoand a half months those, I think
, are indicators of the factthat you are more effectively
navigating your deals and you'refocusing on deals that will
close, rather than spreadingyourself thin and working on 20
deals at the same time.
You kind of focus on high,you're focusing on high priority
or high value deals value inthe grand way, the grand meaning
(19:52):
of it, so to speak.
And you're also to us.
It's an indicator as well thatyou are getting guidance and
insights to help you navigatethese deals that will help you
to go from one stage to anotherquicker.
So we'd like to think about,although it's all linked to the
same metric these laggingindicators of velocity and
(20:13):
conversion across the funnel is,I think, how we can prove our
ROI to organization to say, hey,well, before that was your
conversion rate across dealsfrom stage one to stage two.
Now it's 20% better and I thinkthat ultimately trickles down
into more dollars in the pocketsof the company.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Got it.
And then for the second thingthat you had mentioned, when we
were talking about who you wereselling into and a little bit of
that aha moment of switchingfrom the individual AEs to the
managers, how have you thoughtabout the types of organizations
that you're selling into,whether it's SMB, mid-market
enterprise.
And then how did you make thatdecision?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, selling into whether it's SMB, mid-market
enterprise.
And then how did you make thatdecision?
Yeah, again, in the hundreds ofcalls and discussions I've had
early on, I got a chance to talkto people that are doing
transactional sales, accountmanagement, large enterprise
(21:10):
deals in all types of industries, from people doing postal
services to restaurant servicesto B2B SaaS and I think what we
end up realizing is that theproblem that we're solving one
of not knowing how to navigateyour deal is most relevant to
selling motions that are longeror more complex than others.
So think about it as theaverage sales cycle being at
(21:33):
least three, four weeks, to goup to 12 month, average contract
value being slightly, you know,above a certain threshold, so a
minimum of five to $10,000average contract value, the
number of stakeholders involvedin your buying committee being
at least three people, not justone person.
(21:53):
So those characteristicsultimately lead to a more
complex deal, more complex,nuanced, ambiguous selling
motion, and this is where wetypically come in and add most
value right.
Help reps to navigate thatambiguity.
Give them data-driven insightsand recommendation to help them
navigate it.
If you're a company that has aone-call close or a very high
(22:17):
velocity or transactional salescycle, effectiveness isn't that
big of a deciding factor in yourperformance.
At the end of the day, yourability to execute fast on a
process ultimately impacts yourperformance, right, so we
typically have less value.
So yeah, in summary, where wereally really focus is more B2B,
(22:39):
enterprise-y selling motion,with large deals, long sales
cycle, complex buying committees.
But at the end of the day,we're not industry specific.
Obviously we're.
It's more relevant for someindustries than others, but I
found it quite interesting tosee that, whether you're selling
(23:01):
a $2.5 million MRI machine oran ERP right, the selling motion
, or at least the approach orthe methodology, ends up being
pretty much the same right.
So it's unique in its own waysand the way that you pitch a
product and the valueproposition, et cetera, et
cetera.
But it ends up being a mix offocusing on the right deals,
making sure you're talking tothe right stakeholders, make
(23:24):
sure you're engaging with themand addressing their concerns,
and making sure that you ask theright question or cover the
right topics according to yourmethodology.
That's what more complex salesends up boiling down to.
So the industry although from ago-to-market perspective we're
targeting some of them doesn'treally have an impact from a
product perspective.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
So here's an interesting question when it
comes to hiring.
So I've been doing recruitingfor a long time.
I've hired a lot of salespeople, mostly in the SaaS space, and
it has almost always been, in myexperience, a non-negotiable
for the person to have sold SaaSin the past as opposed to sales
from some other industry.
(24:06):
But in your experience and allthe conversations you've had,
you're saying that the salesmotion is pretty much the same.
What's your take on hiring forsales, I mean, even in your own
company?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah, good question.
Well, I think that the companyyeah, good question.
Well, I think that the,although the, the skillset can
be different.
What I meant to say?
That to believe the, the, the,the methodology or the workflows
of a cell, a seller, in itsessence don't necessarily vary
that much from one industry toanother.
Then when you look, however, atthe skill set of the
(24:42):
salesperson, I think there's abig difference whether you're
selling into the fintech spaceor in healthcare versus more
traditional B2B enterprise, Ithink because of an
understanding of the industry,an understanding of their pain
points, an understanding of theregulations and understanding of
their pain points, andunderstanding of the regulations
(25:03):
or constrained, et cetera.
I think this is where theexperience of an account
executive is going to come intoplay and is going to impact
their ability to be comfortablein one industry versus another,
knowing the lingo andunderstanding the, you know the
specificities of what'shappening in one industry versus
(25:25):
another.
It's interesting that, in mostcases, I think that if you sell
into B2B SaaS, it might makesense to look for people that
have previously sold into B2BSaaS as well, because I think
it's a bit different thanselling into healthcare, right,
but if you're in healthcare orif you're doing insurance right.
I don't think you necessarilywant someone that's still B2B
(25:47):
SaaS to come in because you needto have some sort of
institutional or industryknowledge to be able to talk to
insurers or hospitals or, youknow, government regulators, et
cetera.
I think that's my take, I thinkin our case.
Yes, looking take, I think inin our, in our case, yes,
looking for someone that hassold SaaS in the past is
(26:07):
important because this is whatwe do and we want people that
understand or have navigated inthe past the adoption and the
buying journey of people inbuying or purchasing SaaS
solutions.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah, no, and I, I I agree with you.
I was just wondering if youwere being contrarian, but that
makes sense.
So on that note, just for youknow, since we're talking about
hiring, how have you approachedinternal growth and hiring at
Pod?
What made you decide to do thefundraise?
Was that primarily to supporthiring efforts or just for other
(26:41):
investments into the company?
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
It was mostly from a hiring perspective.
In the first year and a half ofthe company, we were very, very
lean.
It was myself a foundingengineer and relied a lot on
contractors, offshorecontractors in India and in Asia
overall, and I think that wasit was an uphill battle, to some
(27:08):
extent right, and when you're afounder, especially a solo
founder, you end up having torely on people, and when you
don't have a lot of people torely on, you put a lot on your
own shoulders.
So we worked very, very hard toget the first MVP out.
We got a bunch of new customersin, we launched the product
publicly, got you know that waswhen was it?
(27:28):
It was May 2023, got a lot ofinterest and support and inbound
users and that was all great.
But we understood that we hadput together an MVP, so to speak
, or kind of an alpha or abetter version of the product.
But in order to get to the nextlevel and have a more solid
product and in order to have ahigher velocity from a product
(27:50):
and go-to-market perspective, Ineeded more help.
That's the gist of it.
So the first thing that we didafter the seed round was hiring.
I was in San Francisco, beforethen decided to move back to
Canada Montreal, hired the teammostly in Montreal and, rather
than relying on contractors,this is where I wanted some
(28:13):
solid, trustworthy folks thatwere going to come on board and
basically be all in on themission right, and be passionate
about what we're doing and notjust treat this as another job.
So I think the seed round inthe month afterwards we're
really focused on hiring andbringing and putting together a
(28:35):
nucleus of a team that was super, super strong and an experience
.
But the approach to it was oneof quite manual, to be honest,
right, when it's that, it'sbasically all on myself reaching
out to folks a lot, talking topeople, leveraging my network,
because I think I really, reallybelieve that the decision you
(28:57):
make from a people perspectivethis early in the company can
really shift the directory right.
You have a negative leader, soto speak, or a negative person
that you bring on board in thefirst five to 10 people.
Then it's just a shakyfoundation for whoever you're
going to bring next, and I thinkit was a famous entrepreneur
(29:19):
that said that you know, uh, bplayers don't hire b players.
Right, they're gonna hire b orc players, but only a player is
gonna hire a players.
So, yeah, I really put a lot ofeffort in bringing like very
solid, experienced,knowledgeable folks in um kind
of in a core group, and rightnow we're a nine people and and
(29:43):
I think that's that's creates agreat foundation from a people
perspective, from a cultureperspective, from a mindset
perspective, and ultimatelycreates a better environment for
us to to thrive into.
So so, yeah, what?
Speaker 3 (29:56):
what made you decide to move to to montreal from san
francisco, especially given thehiring for tech talents?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
yeah, yeah, so, so, so, interestingly enough, canada
, I'm originally from Canada, sothere's a part of it which is
also which is also personal, andwe were we were remote back
then and before the seed roundand I had to make a decision on
do I stay in San Francisco andthen hire in San Francisco, or
do I move back to Montreal andhire in Montreal?
And I think there's a few,there's a few reason beyond on
(30:29):
the personal side, why I moveback to montreal is uh, I think
canada, generally speaking, froma talent pool perspective, uh,
is super, super strong.
Uh, montreal and toronto, froman ai talent pool, is amongst
the, the best hubs in the world.
Yeah, in terms of academictalent, the, the I'm probably
going to get this wrong, but outof the four founding fathers of
(30:51):
deep learning, three of themare in Canada, something like
that.
Oh, I had no idea In Montreal.
So it's a hotbed for a lot oflike a lot of kind of technology
, software talent.
It's also from an economicperspective your, your dollars
go further just because of theforeign exchange, uh, and sorry,
(31:11):
sorry, the exchange rate, uh,in terms of the cost of living,
etc.
Etc.
So for me it was like, hey, Iwant to go to somewhere.
From a personal perspective, Iwant to feel like it's time for
me and my partner to go back toMontreal, and it felt just from
the fundraiser that we had likeyou got to give, put all the
chances on your end and you canget more out of your dollars in
(31:32):
Montreal than in San Francisco,where the cost of living talent
is significantly more expensive.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
So I think that's the gist of it.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
There's part of it which is financial, Part of it
is talent, Part of it ispersonal.
Um, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I know that this is it feels like an eternity, and
in particularly in early stagestartup time, but how do you see
both the, the landscape of yourmarket that you're selling into
, as well as pod itself,evolving over the next call at
one to two years?
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Um, it's interesting years.
It's interesting because Ithink it has evolved
significantly in the past one totwo years.
You could say that sales hasprobably been one of the busiest
segment of the market when itcomes to AI solution.
There's a lot of noise, like wewere saying earlier.
(32:22):
There's a lot of noise, like wewere saying earlier.
There's a lot of widget-y tools.
Not all of them are going toraise to be a company that is
going to last for long or to beeither a venture backable or
just a kind of a business thatis going to thrive.
So it definitely has evolved, Ithink, over the next one or two
years.
To me, I think the biggest thingis, I think organization are
(32:47):
going to get a better handle ora better level of comfort in how
they want to integrate AIsolution into their stack, and
I'm talking purely about, on thetechnology side of things, a
lot of other things that areshaping up how sales evolves
overall.
But as it pertains to the roleof technology, I think many
(33:07):
organizations over the past oneor two years did not know how to
implement it.
They were more comfortable notmaking a decision than making a
decision and, three months downthe line, either the solution
being obsolete or open, ailaunching a model, et cetera,
and I've talked to many CROs whotold me exactly that it's like
I do not know what to do.
(33:29):
There's just too much noise.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
So I think that's kind of you know, sorry to have
to cut you off, but I mean, Ithought about myself like if I
was to build in the AI space, Iwould be terrified that,
whatever, oh, but I was going toroll out some new feature my
startup disappears.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah, exactly, I mean .
This is why I think, whenyou're building in the AI space,
you have to understand whether,if you're working on a
foundational model, are you justa few months away from having a
bigger player launchingsomething better, or do you have
a different positioning?
In our case, yes, we're anAI-enabled solution.
(34:05):
We're not a foundational modelbuilder.
So I think the value in ourmoat and our differentiation is
in the application of thesemodels for very, very specific
use cases, delivering very clearand tangible enterprise value
for companies, and so that's abit more defensible Open AI.
I mean, it's tough to saybecause they're doing a lot of
(34:26):
different things, but they'renot going to launch an AI
solution for account executiveor pipeline management.
They're not going to do that.
What we do, however, is workingwith them, is to benefit on any
advancement that they make inthe foundational model building.
Right when we started Pod, wewere using well, not when we
started Pod, but a bit afterwe're using ChatGPD 3.
(34:48):
And then now we're using, youknow, chatgpd 01.
So we're using the latest modeland our use cases are
significantly more powerful,nuanced, thoughtful, reliable,
precise than they were before.
So I think a lot of decisionmakers in an organization are, I
(35:11):
think, are frightened and arelooking for support on how to
leverage it.
I'm part of a community calledan amazing community called
Pavilion for kind ofgo-to-market executives, and
that's a topic that many discuss.
It's like, hey, well, how haveyou done this?
How are you using AI to do that?
And not just from a purerational or structural
(35:33):
perspective, but from abehavioral perspective.
How do I make sure that my repsare using it appropriately?
How do I make sure that I'mprotecting my data?
Make sure that it's not.
How do I deal withhallucinations?
So it's a lot of questions thatI think are being ironed out
throughout the industry,throughout the technology
segment, and I think over thenext one or two years, it's
(35:54):
going to be clearer and clearerto leaders how they should
leverage it, and it's going tobe clearer and clearer for them
where the value comes from andhow to mitigate the risks of
adoption.
Like any other technology.
Right, ai is just a new term,but when you talked about cloud,
it was the same exactdiscussion.
So it's an adoption curve likeany other technology.
(36:16):
So I think that's where we arein the cycle with AI, and this
is going to shape the next twoyears of the adoption of it
Makes sense and I'm rooting foryou guys.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
I'm very excited to see how the next couple of years
pans out for you and justoverall.
Thank you for coming on theshow.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
It's been great.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for having me Lovetalking about this stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Seed to
Exit.
I hope you found today'sconversation insightful and
valuable.
If you enjoyed the episode,please take a moment to
subscribe, leave a review andshare it with your network.
Your support means the worldhelps us continue to grow and
bring more incredible guestsonto the show.
Now for more content andupdates, follow me on LinkedIn
(36:56):
or Twitter, or you can check outMindHire, where we help
startups build exceptional teams.
Thanks again for listening andI'll see you in the next episode
of Seed2Exit.
This is why I think, when you're building in the AI
space, you have to understandwhether, if you're working in a
foundational model, are you justa few months away from having a
bigger player launchingsomething better, or do you have
a different positioning?
In our case, yes, we're an AIenabled solution, we're not a
foundational builder.
So I think the value in ourmoat and our differentiation is
(00:22):
in the application of thesemodels for very, very specific
use cases, delivering very clearand tangible enterprise value
for companies.
So that's a bit more defensible.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome to today's episode of Seed to Exit.
I'm Rhys Keck and today I'mjoined by Patrick Mana, founder
and CEO of Pod.
Patrick started at McKinsey,later became the director of
product and biz ops at Zinnierand is now leading Pod, an
AI-powered workspace designed toenhance productivity for B2B
sales teams.
So today we're going to talk alittle bit more about product
evolution how do you balanceiteration with scalability,
(00:57):
product and go-to-marketstrategy, ai technology,
leadership and personal insights, as well as some of Patrick's
advice for inspiringentrepreneurs.
Really excited for you tolisten.
Let's go ahead and get started.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Welcome to Seed to Exit, the podcast where we
uncover the stories, strategiesand insights that power the
startup ecosystem.
I'm your host, rhys Keck,founder of MindHire, a talent
acquisition firm specializing inhelping startups build
exceptional teams.
Each week, I sit down withfounders, investors and industry
leaders to explore the journeysbehind iconic companies.
Firm specializing in helpingstartups build exceptional teams
.
Each week, I sit down withfounders, investors and industry
leaders to explore the journeysbehind iconic companies and
(01:29):
game-changing ideas.
Whether you're building,investing or just curious about
what it takes to succeed in thestartup world, I want this
podcast to be your go-toresource for actionable insights
and inspiring conversations.
Now, if you enjoy the show,please don't forget to subscribe
, leave a review or share itwith your network.
Your support means the worldand really helps bring more
(01:50):
incredible conversations to life.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Patrick thanks for coming on.
Very excited to be here.
Thank you for having me,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So I'm excited to talk to you.
I know we've been connected onLinkedIn for a while.
I've seen a lot of your postsjamming out just around
different aspects of salesgo-to-market product, so really
excited to dive into some moreof your knowledge with you today
.
So, before we get into things,tell me a little bit more about
Pod, your inspiration forstarting the company and some of
the traction you've gotten sofar.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, so at Pod we're a pipeline coaching tool for
B2B sales team.
So pretty much my whole careerI've been at the intersection of
product and go-to-market,working directly with account
executives.
In my last gig so doing thecold calls, the demo calls, the
qualification calls I got achance to work hand-in-hand with
AEs and understand a bit oftheir pain points and ultimately
(02:42):
, what I saw as being one of thebiggest blockers, biggest thing
I saw at the end of the day isa lot of account executive make
mistakes managing their pipelineand lose deals because they
lack the know how and theguidance to know how to push
deals forward Right.
They basically have a lot ofinformation scattered all over
the place and very limitedguidance.
They're lucky they get 30minutes a week with their
manager.
(03:02):
So what we're Pod is prettysimple we're trying to help them
to manage their pipelinesmarter and we do so by giving
them real-time selling guidance,so connecting with all their
different data and then helpingthem to understand what are
specifically the deals that theyshould prioritize and then what
are the tactical and tangiblenext best action they can take
to close deals faster,ultimately hitting their quota
(03:24):
and getting to the president'sclub.
So, yeah, we're a C-stagestartup.
So we've raised a little over$3 million US so far.
And you know, we've relauncheda new version of Pod a few
months back and now we're kindof hitting the market, working
with a few hundreds of differentaccount executives across 100
plus different companies to helpthem be their best selves, so
to speak.
So that's the gist of it.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Awesome.
So what specific pain points interms of the sales workflow are
you addressing?
Because I know you mentionedthat you know issues with
prioritization, not knowing howto push things forward.
Why is that a problem?
Is it a training problem?
Is it just not having dataavailable to them in the right
way?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
There's a few different things.
The thing with sales is thatit's very convoluted.
Right At the end of the day,it's very convoluted, but also
very straightforward in terms ofthe golden metric.
The thing that matters at theend of the day is are you
closing a deal or not?
And I think what we realize isthat there's a lot of attention
put around productivity in thisspace, right?
So how can I, you know, do someadmin work as efficiently as
(04:31):
possible?
How can I get leads as easilyas possible?
How do I make sure that I canautomate this mundane task or
that one?
And there's nothing wrong withthose.
But I think that, at the end ofthe day, what we truly believe
is that it's not because you'regetting back five to 10 hours
every single week from nothaving to do as much admin work
(04:51):
that you're going to spend five,10 more hours selling or you're
going to do any more betterselling.
So I think it comes down, atthe end, of the difference
between efficiency andeffectiveness, and although
there's a lot of attention onefficiency as a value
proposition or as a pain pointthat companies are solving for
account executive, I think thateffectiveness is more important,
(05:12):
so not increasing the quantityof work being done, but
ultimately the quality.
And I think it comes down to toanswer your question to the root
cause of what makes salesdifficult and where a lot of
reps are left to themselvesultimately, at the end of the
day and it's navigating complexsales situation.
No deals is the same.
(05:33):
They all have their differentpersonas, own dynamic, different
constraints, different concerns, different questions, different
companies, different processes,and a rep, their work is
basically to be able to navigatethat.
And today, although thereexists frameworks and
methodologies, there's a bigdifference between the theory
and the practice.
And I think what we'rerealizing is that in the moment,
(05:55):
so when a rep is in front oftheir computer about to jump on
a call, there's very littlereal-time enablement, very
limited real-time guidance.
And this is what we're lookingto provide reps.
It's like giving them thatlittle nudge, that little
insight, that littlerecommendation that'll help them
make better, faster and smarterdecisions in how they manage
their pipeline.
And, to be clear, right, wefocus on a very specific part of
(06:18):
the sales funnel.
We don't do prospecting, wedon't do forecasting, we're
focused on account executivesthat have, I don't know, 20, 25,
30 deals and are only focusedon managing their pipeline,
pushing these deals forward.
So we're not trying to boil theocean or solve all the problems
for everyone, but this problemof effectiveness is very, very
acute for AE, specifically asthey manage of pipeline.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, I think it's interesting because so many of
the sales solutions that I haveseen so far are more related to
the BDR function, as inprospecting, automation,
customization et cetera.
I don't do a ton of deep diveon sales AI tools beyond that,
but I think that that's reallymost of what I've seen.
So your solution is interestingthat it's for AEs.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
There's a lot of, I mean seen.
So your solution is interesting, that it's for AEs.
There's a lot of I mean.
The AI SDR market is very, verybusy and very noisy, and I'm
not trying to say whether I'mdoing something better or worse
than what AI SDRs are.
I think they complement eachother for every organization.
But if you put yourself into theshoes of a chief revenue
(07:26):
officer and think from a moneyperspective, you know they're
putting a lot of money intogenerating leads, a lot of money
right A lead can be.
You know the cost of acquisitionof a customer can be $1,000.
You put $100 a pop for a leadand then, once those leads are
qualified, you basically throwthem on the lap of an AE and you
(07:47):
expect them to close when inreality it's only the beginning.
So I think this is why the bestorganization understand the
necessity of building a pipelineand building funnel, but
ultimately understand that youneed to put a lot of effort in
enabling your team to close thatfunnel right, to close those
deals, and putting as mucheffort and money into that as
well.
So this is why this is where wesee the biggest white space is,
(08:11):
at the end of the day, beingable to have a percentage
improvement in the salesvelocity or a percentage
improvement in the close ratehas a very clear ROI for
organization right, it's a cleareconomic value at the end of
the day, because you just haveto close one more deal that is
worth $100,000 to you know forit to be worth it, so to speak.
So it's not about one beingbetter than the other, but
(08:33):
ultimately both of them beingimportant to think about your
funnel end to end.
And I think this is where wecome in.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
So when we think about the AEs current workflow
because you're right, I think somuch of the effort that we talk
about, even from a technologyand from the sales training, is
that BDR to AE pipeline and thenyou generally think that, like,
once you're the AE, you've madeit right, unless you want to go
into leadership.
Since we're on the subject ofAI, sdrs, some of the concerns
that I have heard are going tobe if we automate out the BDRs
(09:02):
and we sort of remove the bottomrung of the career ladder, who
then becomes the AEs?
Is that something you'rethinking about or approaching in
any way?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
It's actually a very interesting point and I'd love
to give you a fancy answer, butit's actually the first time
thinking about it that way, LikeI've been thinking about being
able to use BDRs for notnecessarily replacing them, but
getting a lot of the mundaneresearch, heavy task automated
and then get them to eitherfocus on personalization or
(09:35):
contribute in other ways.
So I never really thought aboutit in terms of a hundred percent
replacement but ultimatelyaugmentation.
But I think you have a verygood point, though Typically
that's the normal path, but Istill believe that there's a
place in the sales funnel formore junior sales rep, whether
(09:56):
it's in what we call today moretraditional BDR work cold call,
cold email etc.
Or something else.
I think there's still going tobe a place, because even if you
say an ai, sdr or bdr, I thinkwhat that has highlighted is the
fact that people still want ahuman interaction.
(10:20):
Right, they want to talk tosomeone.
There's so much content outthere that many buyer and when
you think about their journey,they're going to push out the
moment at which they're going towant to talk to someone, but at
the end of the day, they wantto speak to someone and that
person is mostly going to be aBDR.
Are you going to need as manyBDRs as before?
Probably not, but I'm never abig proponent of replacing, but
(10:45):
rather kind of augmenting.
So that's my take.
but I don't know I mean I don'tknow if you've seen or seen or
heard things differently outthere, but would be curious.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Well, yeah, it was, it was discussed.
There was an episode that wedid with um.
It was the, the guys over atbounty.
Ai is the sharp risky.
And then Matt, matt Cooley, andtheir take was going to be that
it's probably going to becomemore of a junior salesperson who
really becomes involved in thefull cycle early on, as opposed
to just doing the research andpipeline bill.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
But it's, it's just an interesting thought
experiment we, you know, wewon't know until we we find out.
Yeah, Till it's too late, right, right.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
So so let's let's talk a little bit more about the
journey of Pod so far.
So 100% understand the problemat this point.
So when did you come to realizethis was a problem?
What made you decide to foundthe company, as opposed to doing
the last role that you were in?
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, well, it was actually my previous role.
I was at a Series C startup andwe had, let's speak, it was
actually my previous role.
I was at a Series C startup andwe had, let's speak, we were
underperforming from a revenueperspective and I had for a long
time wanted to start a business.
And I jumped into that problemand you know, working with the
executive team, trying tounderstand what was the
(12:01):
underlying problem with oursales process or our ICP or the
enablement, and it kind ofexposed me to this whole world
of B2B enterprise sales and tosome extent to me it was an
unknown world because I don'tthink sales behaves the same as
any other function.
It's quite unique in the typeof people that are there.
(12:22):
The incentive structure, theprocesses, the expectation, the
type of skillset is very, veryunique and I kind of fell in
love with the I said that Ithink the dual nature of the
problem I was seeing.
It's not just a technologyproblem but ultimately also a
human and behavioral and changemanagement type of problem.
(12:45):
So I really love the problem.
I spent many months trying tofix it or working on fixing it
within the organization and then, when I decided it was time for
me to go on to something else.
I knew I wanted to buildsomething.
So when I was thinking aboutdifferent ideas, this one kind
of was something that I hadfirsthand experience with and
(13:06):
that I I had a, I think, aunique insight to be able to
tackle it.
But you know the the, thejourney of a, of a founder, so
to speak, is one where you'reconsistently learning.
So I didn't have a a solid of aperspective on what was the
value proposition or the product, as as I have right now, when I
started.
(13:26):
When I started, I had an idea, Isaw a problem, I thought I had
a.
You know, I had a solution thatcould solve it.
And then, ultimately, I justspoke to hundreds, if not
thousands, of people in thesales space right, aes, bdrs,
revops, SalesOps, salesEnablement, management
Consultant, systemImplementation Providers, name
(13:47):
it and that just gave me a verygood.
It helped me to sharpen mypencil in terms of okay, well,
what is the landscape?
How are we thinking aboutsomething different than what's
out there and, ultimately,better.
And ultimately, we're prettyexcited about where we are right
now in terms of not just theproblem that we're facing and
the fact that we think it's avery important problem.
(14:08):
It's not just a surface levelgood to have problem.
We think that can ultimatelymake a big difference in how
sales teams and reps perform.
But it's evolved over time.
So yeah, but it started backthen.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
What were some of the learnings from those hundreds
of thousands of conversationsthat you maybe hadn't thought
about before?
That helped change theevolution of the product.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
There's many, many, many, many of those, but, um, I
think it there's, there's a fewof them.
I'll pick a few that I thinkare most shape the our journey.
Um, I think one is around whatI was mentioning earlier of
efficiency versus effectiveness,productivity versus
intelligence, so to speak.
We initially started with kindof building an application that
would be more competitive, withthe likes of a scratch pad or a
(15:00):
dually or a rattle that are morefocused on updating your
Salesforce faster, so to speak,and I think what we realized
over time so that was very, veryfocused on productivity right,
making your reps more productiveand what we realized over time
and ultimately that insight camefrom, started with one
discussion with a director ofrev ops and it was in middle of
(15:22):
2022 where that person told mewas like, hey, you know, we're
cutting expenses.
Me was like, hey, you know,we're cutting expenses across
the organization and I have tocut half a million dollar in
tools, and the one, the firstone I'm gonna cut is this kind
of productivity tool that we'vestarted that a's love, and I was
like, oh, wow, okay, why isthat the case?
(15:44):
Your a's love them.
You told them, you told youknow, you told them yourself
right, what he was.
What he said then was I cannotwrap my head around an roi for
that tool like I could.
It's not because your reps havea, you know, it doesn't, even
if it makes their life easier.
I don't see an roi for ourbusiness as a whole.
(16:05):
So we're going to cut thatfirst.
And I thought that was veryenlightening in the relationship
, or the perceived value ofproductivity or, you know,
reducing admin work versus theROI for a sales organization.
And that's where we decided tonot necessarily pivot but take a
slightly different direction oflike, rather than focus on
productivity, focus on kind ofintelligence insights that would
(16:29):
ultimately help to close dealsfaster and more predictably, so
to speak.
So that was a big, big, biglearning around the perceived
value of an organization.
Right, we're a B2B SaaS company.
At the end of the day, we'regoing to sell to leaders, vps of
sales, head of rev ops, etcetera, et cetera.
And if these people don'tultimately see the value or the,
(16:52):
you know the, the clear valueproposition or the value for for
the organization, it was goingto be, it was going to be tough,
right, it was going to beheadwinds the whole way.
So that was a big one.
We always thought aboutproductivity and intelligence is
coming hand in hand and westarted with productivity.
In hindsight, we probablyshould have started with these
insights first.
(17:12):
That's one.
I think.
Another one is in terms of ourgo-to-market At the very
beginning we focus on individualreps as an ideal customer
profile, going to them, enablingthem, getting them on the
platform for free, getting themstarted, kind of PLG-type motion
, right Product-like growthbottom up.
And I think what we realizedover time is that this persona,
(17:34):
although they have moredecision-making power and
flexibility to use new toolsthan other functions, so to
speak, they still don'tnecessarily remain the main
decision makers or influencersin a decision.
So shifting from a bottom-upmotion focused on AEs to a more
(17:55):
traditional top-down motionfocused on managers not
necessarily leadership, butmanagers, because they have a
clear problem awareness, becausethey have budget, because they
have kind of influence ordecision-making power, was
another big learning for us.
And obviously we're still anearly stage company.
We learn every single day butthose were two big aha moment
(18:18):
that has shaped our direction,focus, resources and what we're
doing today.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Super interesting.
So to dive a little bit deeperonto each of them.
So for the first one, whenwe're talking about ROI or lack
thereof when it comes toproductivity, how do you think
about measuring or explainingROI of the current product to
customers?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, well, I think the ultimate metric is the same
for everyone.
It's quite simple and it'saverage quota attainment.
It's your close rate, so tospeak, or are you hitting your
quota?
That's the golden metric,ultimately, that most sales tech
tools aim for, because that'sthe one metric that the whole
(19:08):
sales or revenue organization isaiming for.
But I think we like to look atkind of leading indicators that
lead to quota attainment.
So, whether that is conversionacross the funnel or the overall
sales velocity so rather thantypically closing a deal in four
(19:29):
months, you'll close it in twoand a half months those, I think
, are indicators of the factthat you are more effectively
navigating your deals and you'refocusing on deals that will
close, rather than spreadingyourself thin and working on 20
deals at the same time.
You kind of focus on high,you're focusing on high priority
or high value deals value inthe grand way, the grand meaning
(19:52):
of it, so to speak.
And you're also to us.
It's an indicator as well thatyou are getting guidance and
insights to help you navigatethese deals that will help you
to go from one stage to anotherquicker.
So we'd like to think about,although it's all linked to the
same metric these laggingindicators of velocity and
(20:13):
conversion across the funnel is,I think, how we can prove our
ROI to organization to say, hey,well, before that was your
conversion rate across dealsfrom stage one to stage two.
Now it's 20% better and I thinkthat ultimately trickles down
into more dollars in the pocketsof the company.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Got it.
And then for the second thingthat you had mentioned, when we
were talking about who you wereselling into and a little bit of
that aha moment of switchingfrom the individual AEs to the
managers, how have you thoughtabout the types of organizations
that you're selling into,whether it's SMB, mid-market
enterprise.
And then how did you make thatdecision?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, selling into whether it's SMB, mid-market
enterprise.
And then how did you make thatdecision?
Yeah, again, in the hundreds ofcalls and discussions I've had
early on, I got a chance to talkto people that are doing
transactional sales, accountmanagement, large enterprise
(21:10):
deals in all types of industries, from people doing postal
services to restaurant servicesto B2B SaaS and I think what we
end up realizing is that theproblem that we're solving one
of not knowing how to navigateyour deal is most relevant to
selling motions that are longeror more complex than others.
So think about it as theaverage sales cycle being at
(21:33):
least three, four weeks, to goup to 12 month, average contract
value being slightly, you know,above a certain threshold, so a
minimum of five to $10,000average contract value, the
number of stakeholders involvedin your buying committee being
at least three people, not justone person.
(21:53):
So those characteristicsultimately lead to a more
complex deal, more complex,nuanced, ambiguous selling
motion, and this is where wetypically come in and add most
value right.
Help reps to navigate thatambiguity.
Give them data-driven insightsand recommendation to help them
navigate it.
If you're a company that has aone-call close or a very high
(22:17):
velocity or transactional salescycle, effectiveness isn't that
big of a deciding factor in yourperformance.
At the end of the day, yourability to execute fast on a
process ultimately impacts yourperformance, right, so we
typically have less value.
So yeah, in summary, where wereally really focus is more B2B,
(22:39):
enterprise-y selling motion,with large deals, long sales
cycle, complex buying committees.
But at the end of the day,we're not industry specific.
Obviously we're.
It's more relevant for someindustries than others, but I
found it quite interesting tosee that, whether you're selling
(23:01):
a $2.5 million MRI machine oran ERP right, the selling motion
, or at least the approach orthe methodology, ends up being
pretty much the same right.
So it's unique in its own waysand the way that you pitch a
product and the valueproposition, et cetera, et
cetera.
But it ends up being a mix offocusing on the right deals,
making sure you're talking tothe right stakeholders, make
(23:24):
sure you're engaging with themand addressing their concerns,
and making sure that you ask theright question or cover the
right topics according to yourmethodology.
That's what more complex salesends up boiling down to.
So the industry although from ago-to-market perspective we're
targeting some of them doesn'treally have an impact from a
product perspective.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
So here's an interesting question when it
comes to hiring.
So I've been doing recruitingfor a long time.
I've hired a lot of salespeople, mostly in the SaaS space, and
it has almost always been, in myexperience, a non-negotiable
for the person to have sold SaaSin the past as opposed to sales
from some other industry.
(24:06):
But in your experience and allthe conversations you've had,
you're saying that the salesmotion is pretty much the same.
What's your take on hiring forsales, I mean, even in your own
company?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Yeah, good question.
Well, I think that the companyyeah, good question.
Well, I think that the,although the, the skillset can
be different.
What I meant to say?
That to believe the, the, the,the methodology or the workflows
of a cell, a seller, in itsessence don't necessarily vary
that much from one industry toanother.
Then when you look, however, atthe skill set of the
(24:42):
salesperson, I think there's abig difference whether you're
selling into the fintech spaceor in healthcare versus more
traditional B2B enterprise, Ithink because of an
understanding of the industry,an understanding of their pain
points, an understanding of theregulations and understanding of
their pain points, andunderstanding of the regulations
(25:03):
or constrained, et cetera.
I think this is where theexperience of an account
executive is going to come intoplay and is going to impact
their ability to be comfortablein one industry versus another,
knowing the lingo andunderstanding the, you know the
specificities of what'shappening in one industry versus
(25:25):
another.
It's interesting that, in mostcases, I think that if you sell
into B2B SaaS, it might makesense to look for people that
have previously sold into B2BSaaS as well, because I think
it's a bit different thanselling into healthcare, right,
but if you're in healthcare orif you're doing insurance right.
I don't think you necessarilywant someone that's still B2B
(25:47):
SaaS to come in because you needto have some sort of
institutional or industryknowledge to be able to talk to
insurers or hospitals or, youknow, government regulators, et
cetera.
I think that's my take, I thinkin our case.
Yes, looking take, I think inin our, in our case, yes,
looking for someone that hassold SaaS in the past is
(26:07):
important because this is whatwe do and we want people that
understand or have navigated inthe past the adoption and the
buying journey of people inbuying or purchasing SaaS
solutions.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah, no, and I, I I agree with you.
I was just wondering if youwere being contrarian, but that
makes sense.
So on that note, just for youknow, since we're talking about
hiring, how have you approachedinternal growth and hiring at
Pod?
What made you decide to do thefundraise?
Was that primarily to supporthiring efforts or just for other
(26:41):
investments into the company?
Tell me more about that.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
It was mostly from a hiring perspective.
In the first year and a half ofthe company, we were very, very
lean.
It was myself a foundingengineer and relied a lot on
contractors, offshorecontractors in India and in Asia
overall, and I think that wasit was an uphill battle, to some
(27:08):
extent right, and when you're afounder, especially a solo
founder, you end up having torely on people, and when you
don't have a lot of people torely on, you put a lot on your
own shoulders.
So we worked very, very hard toget the first MVP out.
We got a bunch of new customersin, we launched the product
publicly, got you know that waswhen was it?
(27:28):
It was May 2023, got a lot ofinterest and support and inbound
users and that was all great.
But we understood that we hadput together an MVP, so to speak
, or kind of an alpha or abetter version of the product.
But in order to get to the nextlevel and have a more solid
product and in order to have ahigher velocity from a product
(27:50):
and go-to-market perspective, Ineeded more help.
That's the gist of it.
So the first thing that we didafter the seed round was hiring.
I was in San Francisco, beforethen decided to move back to
Canada Montreal, hired the teammostly in Montreal and, rather
than relying on contractors,this is where I wanted some
(28:13):
solid, trustworthy folks thatwere going to come on board and
basically be all in on themission right, and be passionate
about what we're doing and notjust treat this as another job.
So I think the seed round inthe month afterwards we're
really focused on hiring andbringing and putting together a
(28:35):
nucleus of a team that was super, super strong and an experience
.
But the approach to it was oneof quite manual, to be honest,
right, when it's that, it'sbasically all on myself reaching
out to folks a lot, talking topeople, leveraging my network,
because I think I really, reallybelieve that the decision you
(28:57):
make from a people perspectivethis early in the company can
really shift the directory right.
You have a negative leader, soto speak, or a negative person
that you bring on board in thefirst five to 10 people.
Then it's just a shakyfoundation for whoever you're
going to bring next, and I thinkit was a famous entrepreneur
(29:19):
that said that you know, uh, bplayers don't hire b players.
Right, they're gonna hire b orc players, but only a player is
gonna hire a players.
So, yeah, I really put a lot ofeffort in bringing like very
solid, experienced,knowledgeable folks in um kind
of in a core group, and rightnow we're a nine people and and
(29:43):
I think that's that's creates agreat foundation from a people
perspective, from a cultureperspective, from a mindset
perspective, and ultimatelycreates a better environment for
us to to thrive into.
So so, yeah, what?
Speaker 3 (29:56):
what made you decide to move to to montreal from san
francisco, especially given thehiring for tech talents?
Speaker 1 (30:02):
yeah, yeah, so, so, so, interestingly enough, canada
, I'm originally from Canada, sothere's a part of it which is
also which is also personal, andwe were we were remote back
then and before the seed roundand I had to make a decision on
do I stay in San Francisco andthen hire in San Francisco, or
do I move back to Montreal andhire in Montreal?
And I think there's a few,there's a few reason beyond on
(30:29):
the personal side, why I moveback to montreal is uh, I think
canada, generally speaking, froma talent pool perspective, uh,
is super, super strong.
Uh, montreal and toronto, froman ai talent pool, is amongst
the, the best hubs in the world.
Yeah, in terms of academictalent, the, the I'm probably
going to get this wrong, but outof the four founding fathers of
(30:51):
deep learning, three of themare in Canada, something like
that.
Oh, I had no idea In Montreal.
So it's a hotbed for a lot oflike a lot of kind of technology
, software talent.
It's also from an economicperspective your, your dollars
go further just because of theforeign exchange, uh, and sorry,
(31:11):
sorry, the exchange rate, uh,in terms of the cost of living,
etc.
Etc.
So for me it was like, hey, Iwant to go to somewhere.
From a personal perspective, Iwant to feel like it's time for
me and my partner to go back toMontreal, and it felt just from
the fundraiser that we had likeyou got to give, put all the
chances on your end and you canget more out of your dollars in
(31:32):
Montreal than in San Francisco,where the cost of living talent
is significantly more expensive.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
So I think that's the gist of it.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
There's part of it which is financial, Part of it
is talent, Part of it ispersonal.
Um, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
I know that this is it feels like an eternity, and
in particularly in early stagestartup time, but how do you see
both the, the landscape of yourmarket that you're selling into
, as well as pod itself,evolving over the next call at
one to two years?
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Um, it's interesting years.
It's interesting because Ithink it has evolved
significantly in the past one totwo years.
You could say that sales hasprobably been one of the busiest
segment of the market when itcomes to AI solution.
There's a lot of noise, like wewere saying earlier.
(32:22):
There's a lot of noise, like wewere saying earlier.
There's a lot of widget-y tools.
Not all of them are going toraise to be a company that is
going to last for long or to beeither a venture backable or
just a kind of a business thatis going to thrive.
So it definitely has evolved, Ithink, over the next one or two
years.
To me, I think the biggest thingis, I think organization are
(32:47):
going to get a better handle ora better level of comfort in how
they want to integrate AIsolution into their stack, and
I'm talking purely about, on thetechnology side of things, a
lot of other things that areshaping up how sales evolves
overall.
But as it pertains to the roleof technology, I think many
(33:07):
organizations over the past oneor two years did not know how to
implement it.
They were more comfortable notmaking a decision than making a
decision and, three months downthe line, either the solution
being obsolete or open, ailaunching a model, et cetera,
and I've talked to many CROs whotold me exactly that it's like
I do not know what to do.
(33:29):
There's just too much noise.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
So I think that's kind of you know, sorry to have
to cut you off, but I mean, Ithought about myself like if I
was to build in the AI space, Iwould be terrified that,
whatever, oh, but I was going toroll out some new feature my
startup disappears.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yeah, exactly, I mean .
This is why I think, whenyou're building in the AI space,
you have to understand whether,if you're working on a
foundational model, are you justa few months away from having a
bigger player launchingsomething better, or do you have
a different positioning?
In our case, yes, we're anAI-enabled solution.
(34:05):
We're not a foundational modelbuilder.
So I think the value in ourmoat and our differentiation is
in the application of thesemodels for very, very specific
use cases, delivering very clearand tangible enterprise value
for companies, and so that's abit more defensible Open AI.
I mean, it's tough to saybecause they're doing a lot of
(34:26):
different things, but they'renot going to launch an AI
solution for account executiveor pipeline management.
They're not going to do that.
What we do, however, is workingwith them, is to benefit on any
advancement that they make inthe foundational model building.
Right when we started Pod, wewere using well, not when we
started Pod, but a bit afterwe're using ChatGPD 3.
(34:48):
And then now we're using, youknow, chatgpd 01.
So we're using the latest modeland our use cases are
significantly more powerful,nuanced, thoughtful, reliable,
precise than they were before.
So I think a lot of decisionmakers in an organization are, I
(35:11):
think, are frightened and arelooking for support on how to
leverage it.
I'm part of a community calledan amazing community called
Pavilion for kind ofgo-to-market executives, and
that's a topic that many discuss.
It's like, hey, well, how haveyou done this?
How are you using AI to do that?
And not just from a purerational or structural
(35:33):
perspective, but from abehavioral perspective.
How do I make sure that my repsare using it appropriately?
How do I make sure that I'mprotecting my data?
Make sure that it's not.
How do I deal withhallucinations?
So it's a lot of questions thatI think are being ironed out
throughout the industry,throughout the technology
segment, and I think over thenext one or two years, it's
(35:54):
going to be clearer and clearerto leaders how they should
leverage it, and it's going tobe clearer and clearer for them
where the value comes from andhow to mitigate the risks of
adoption.
Like any other technology.
Right, ai is just a new term,but when you talked about cloud,
it was the same exactdiscussion.
So it's an adoption curve likeany other technology.
(36:16):
So I think that's where we arein the cycle with AI, and this
is going to shape the next twoyears of the adoption of it
Makes sense and I'm rooting foryou guys.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
I'm very excited to see how the next couple of years
pans out for you and justoverall.
Thank you for coming on theshow.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
It's been great.
I appreciate it.
Thank you for having me Lovetalking about this stuff.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Seed to
Exit.
I hope you found today'sconversation insightful and
valuable.
If you enjoyed the episode,please take a moment to
subscribe, leave a review andshare it with your network.
Your support means the worldhelps us continue to grow and
bring more incredible guestsonto the show.
Now for more content andupdates, follow me on LinkedIn
(36:56):
or Twitter, or you can check outMindHire, where we help
startups build exceptional teams.
Thanks again for listening andI'll see you in the next episode
of Seed2Exit.
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