May 6, 2024 • 23 mins
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Changing the Stigma of Mental Health and Addiction
How To Do Recovery in Family
Guest: Crissy Clark
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🔸In this episode, Trisha and Thomas interview Crissy Clark, the executive director of Ripple Ranch, a holistic addiction treatment center. They discuss the interrelationship between substance abuse and mental health disorders, highlighting the importance of addressing both issues together. Chrissy explains various trauma treatments, such as EMDR and CBT, and emphasizes the need to understand the impact of trauma on individuals. They also explore the concept of rock bottom and how it is not necessary for someone to hit rock bottom before seeking help. The conversation delves into the stigma surrounding mental health and addiction, and the importance of open communication and support within families. Chrissy shares insights on codependency and setting boundaries, as well as the resources available for individuals and families seeking help.
To learn more about Ripple Ranch Recovery Center, go to
We are Trisha and Thomas Walker, licensed ministers, relationship coaches, & prayer counselors where we teach couples how to deepen their relationship with each other and with God. This is the Seeds For Your Marriage podcast where we share biblical wisdom and practical advice on building a strong, healthy, and fulfilling marriage rooted in faith. These marriage stories are to inspire you and give you a deeper understanding of God's design for marriage and steps to having a Christ-centered and thriving family.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
everybody has to figure it out for themselves,
but the way we look at it is isit impacting your functioning?
Do you now have legal troubles?
Have you lost your marriage, ajob?
Are your children not talkingto you?
Thank you, guys for focusing onfamily and marriage, because I
think that's such an importantcore value that our communities
and our societies need Seeds foryour marriage.
(00:22):
Our societies need Seeds foryour marriage.
At a substance abuse treatmentcenter doing my internship, and
just being there for myinternship, of course you start
to see these patterns and I wasnoticing a lot of trauma with
the people that were there andthat seemed to be a common
thread, which is why I startedto pursue some of these trauma
(00:43):
treatments.
Having made a career out ofthis, I've been able to kind of
build on that theory that a lotof the people that we're dealing
with at a substance ortreatment centers all not all,
you can't say all, you never cansay all but I would say you
know most of them that I haveinteractions with or am working
(01:03):
with are struggling with mentalhealth issues.
So, for example, you might havesomeone come in who is using
meth and you have theopportunity to sit and talk with
them or do their intake and youfind out that they're having
some type of auditory or visualhallucinations.
(01:24):
Well, that can be meth, so candetoxing off of alcohol.
But then, as you're talking tothat person and getting a
history, you find out that maybethe first time they had a
visual hallucination was whenthey were six, okay, six years
old.
So now we're talking aboutthere's something was going on
there at a pretty young age andthen maybe on top of that you
(01:48):
find out that they were beingsexually abused or physically
abused really change theconnections in your brain and
the way that you view the worldand things can seem really scary
.
So you have to kind of go backand you have to build trust with
(02:09):
the person to kind of get allof that history and see where
the core issue is.
But sometimes it's really hardto pull apart substance use and
mental health.
But we have tours, sometimes atRipple, from other treatment
centers and they'll say, oh,it's so cool that you guys do
mental health, we don't do that,we just do substance use.
(02:40):
We don't do that, we just dosubstance use.
And I kind't think, don't thinkof them as separate issues.
But the people that come to aninpatient treatment facility.
But, that being said, you knowit can be anything from.
I mean, I'm thinking about, forinstance, our one of our
admissions specialists.
She shares her story all thetime, so I don't I know she
(03:01):
wouldn't mind me sharing somethings, but for her her rock
bottom was she had gotten acouple of DWIs.
She got arrested, was in jailfor another DWI and she thought
to herself I could really use adrink right now.
She came to Ripple.
She got sober two years laterbecause we required two years of
(03:23):
sobriety to come back and workfor us and she's been one of our
star admissions counselors eversince then and been able to be
a part of her kids' lives andher grandkids' lives.
And so you know, you have otherpeople that come in and they
just they have no family thatwill talk to them, they have no
support, they've spent all oftheir money, they are homeless,
(03:47):
they have lost their driver'slicense, they've had everything
stolen from them, like we haveliterally people come with
nothing.
So everybody's rock bottom is alittle bit different and the
population that we serve isreally diverse.
We have attorneys, we have,like I said, people that are
homeless, that have lost theirjobs, lost their family.
(04:08):
We have people that have lostchildren and have spiraled into
substance use as a way ofdealing with grief.
So it's really diverse.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, I think that I would assume that for the
majority of the people, though,there are some mental health I
guess symptoms or the wholething around having family
trauma or trauma in someone'slife.
It started a long way backbefore they ever started using
right.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I think maybe even the using of substance is
actually more of a symptom fromtrying to hide all of that pain
and so what we've tried to do,which I love yoga, by the way,
and I love meditation andgrounding, and those are all
really good tools calming yourcentral nervous system when you
have been through a lot oftrauma.
But sometimes we try to teachjust kind of sitting with your
(05:01):
emotions and learning how toretrain your brain.
That like it's okay to feeloverwhelmingly sad or
overwhelmingly frustrated, but Ithink the big thing that that
you're talking about too is thatone of the most probably
harmful emotions that peopleexperience and try to avoid as
(05:24):
shame.
And so when you've got somekind of abuse that happened
within the family, a lot oftimes there's shame surrounding
that.
And as children especially, wejust we kind of have this belief
that like the moon follows uswherever we go.
That's a very egocentric worldand so, of course, as children,
(05:45):
if something bad's happening tous, the natural reaction is well
, if I'm just a better kid or ifI can change the way I'm
behaving or keep somebody happy,then these things won't happen.
And yeah, it's reallyinteresting because I'd say that
a lot of times you see peoplecome into treatment, whether it
be in just mental health ingeneral or substance use
(06:06):
treatment, like in their earlythirties and it's almost seems
to be like that's the tippingpoint where, like I've been able
to kind of keep this togetherand maintain this like avoidance
that I'm doing, but at somepoint, if you don't deal with it
, it's going to implode on you,and so that's where we see I
(06:27):
think that's a really common agethat I see early thirties,
where people are like I justcan't do this anymore, like I
just can't, like my anxiety isout of control, my depression's
out of control.
So then the stigma within thefamilies, especially that can be
a cultural issue or, like yousaid, maybe there's some even
potential legal issues that canhappen with families.
(06:49):
We have to be really carefuland supportive of families so
that because the idea is we wantto like keep them together,
because we need our families andwe need our support systems I
mean, I can say more on thestigma, unless there's something
that you have that's like aspecific question about the
stigma.
But I think that beingself-aware, understanding the
(07:11):
facts, us as therapists, kind ofeducating families and
educating our clients, can helpwith the stigma.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We talk a lot about lowering the waterline.
And you know, if you think about, the iceberg is what you see.
You know when you're, whenyou're on the waters, but what's
underneath is what's reallygoing on and and.
So if there's no safety, ifthere's not a feeling of
security and trust, and so thatvulnerability becomes really
important, and I think that kindof maybe connects to the stigma
(07:38):
which is for me to come out andsay I'm depressed or I'm this.
How do we combat that stigmaand get to a place where it's
okay to not be okay and alsoensure that there's the help,
the support and the servicesthat we have that we need to
help folks overcome and, as youtalked about, getting to the
(07:59):
root?
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, I mean I think it's a good question.
It's really interesting becauseI have three girls.
My youngest is 19.
And her generation is almostovercorrected in a way, I think,
because they just use theseterms.
Well, I'm bipolar, I have PTSD,I have anxiety.
They sort of use them in almosta flippant kind of help
(08:24):
normalize that that all familiesdeal with and some people deal
with it at certain times intheir family or in their life,
and sometimes it's a lifelongstruggle.
But it's just more, I think,more the norm than we realize.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I 100% agree.
I'm so glad you said thatbecause I mean, even in our own
family, we have family membersthat have gone through different
bouts of mental health andsubstance abuse, and one of the
things that we, even Trisha andI, still talk about to this day
in some of our familyrelationships is the idea of
codependency.
There's a really fine linebetween that and you know,
(09:01):
chrissy, you were talking aboutthe fact that you involve the
whole family into supportingthose who you work with.
Just some thoughts on that.
And how do we get to a placewhere we can educate ourselves
as I think, people in the familyto know the difference and know
am I really helping this person, am I a codependent, and how do
(09:22):
we navigate that situation?
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I just kind of was exposed to some information
about the idea of codependencyand that whole idea kind of
where it comes from.
It is a 12-step AA concept.
There's been a lot of bookswritten about codependency.
There's very little evidencethat codependency actually
(09:44):
exists, so can't really diagnosepeople when they're in crisis.
We don't do that.
You'll see behaviors andsymptoms that aren't necessarily
always there.
So if we think aboutcodependency or people using
substances we're as a crisissituation, you can't really look
(10:04):
at the family and say, oh, thisis like, this is a diagnosis,
this is a disorder, and so wekind of feel like it's created a
lot of toxic responses tosubstance use in the substance
use world.
But I think there's not reallya perfect formula for it.
So one of the examples I heardwas a guy who his mom was an
(10:27):
alcoholic and he was also inrecovery and he shared the story
that one night his mom showedup.
She had been drinking, she'dbeen on the bender or whatever,
and she somehow managed to getherself.
It was raining and she managedto get herself to his house in a
taxi or something like that,but she didn't have her license
(10:49):
and she didn't have any money.
He called his sponsor and saidwhat do you think I should do?
Like my mom's, you know, hereshe has no, she has nothing.
He said I think you should notlet her in.
His mom was in her seventies orsomething.
He said there was.
There was no, no version of thestory where he was going to
leave his 70 year old mom out inthe rain with no you know.
(11:10):
And so that's just an example.
Not everybody goes to thoseextremes, but I think it's an
example of how, like, yes, weneed to set boundaries, but we
also that's those are our familymembers and we love them, and
so sometimes we do have to makedecisions based on do we think,
like, this person is going tolive or die if I don't help them
?
(11:30):
So you have to set thoseboundaries and you have to kind
of figure that out, I think, asyou go.
I myself had a child whostruggled with addiction.
So for me it was there wereconsiderations that we had, like
we had younger children in thehouse and so we couldn't allow
use in the house because wecould have lost the ability to
(11:51):
care for those younger children.
We had to make that a verystrict rule, but we had to just
also continue to love her andtry to make sure she was safe to
the best of our abilities, likefocus on the things that we had
control over, alsounderstanding that we could not
control her and her decisions.
So it's again that's why I sayit's.
(12:14):
Sometimes that's that createsmore questions, because there's
not, like there's not, a perfectformula for it.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, but I really like what you're saying, though,
just around, instead of lookingat it as the term codependency,
really looking at the termboundaries and assessing our own
boundaries for ourself, likewhat are we allowing and what
are we not allowing for our ownlife and our own home?
But then what are theboundaries for the other person
to like?
What are we willing to acceptor not accept from their
(12:42):
behaviors?
And then even education, right,like you talked earlier just
about education, educatingourselves.
So if we are going through asituation with a family member
who is suffering from, you know,substance abuse or any sort of
mental health issue, likeeducating ourselves first
instead of just reacting, Iguess, to the situation, I think
(13:04):
that can be really helpful.
And then I think the other partis just community and allow us
to be overcome by that shame,but really, yeah, and that
connects to the love that youtalked about, chrissy.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
you know, leading with love.
I think that that's soimportant in anything that we do
is just, you know, letting thelove come through, and
relationships really matter too.
I think that connects to thecommunity piece, because
sometimes we want to control theoutcome and it's not within our
control.
So so, having trust in God andthat he's got it, and having
faith, I think, is also a very,very important component of what
(13:38):
we're talking about doing whathe believed, what we believe
he's telling us to do.
There's no blueprint for that.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, there really isn't, which makes it difficult.
I will add into that that youknow some common behaviors that
we see with people that are inactive addiction and they are
desperate they're in survivalmode, you know.
So they at times will pull outall the stops, make people feel
guilty, and just all the stopsmake people feel guilty and just
(14:09):
, I think, standing firm andunderstanding that that's the
addiction talking and that youcan't take that personally.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Well, what are some of the things that you do at
Ripo Ranch where you help tosupport the family and maybe the
education piece, so they kindof understand that.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So we do an online meeting for parents or family
members every Tuesday and that'sactually open to the community.
So it's not technically like aCODA meeting or you know it's
not because we do this dualdiagnosis.
So ours is just a little bitdifferent.
We focus on somepsychoeducation about different
(14:44):
types of diagnosis and educatefamily on what aftercare looks
like.
But it is open to anyone whowants to join.
It's a Zoom meeting that doesdepend on the person giving us
permission.
We do have to have a release ofinformation for us to
communicate with families.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
You find good participation from the family,
that many are willing to comearound and really go through the
online sessions and be thereand get the education and the
knowledge that they need toreally support aftercare and
when their family members leave.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It really depends on where the family is.
You know, unfortunately, weknow that I think that the
average is like eight treatmentcenters before you achieve
sobriety and I think that that'skind of I wish that we were
able to keep people longer.
Usually insurance pays forabout 30 days and you know, if
(15:38):
you've been using hard drugs for15 years, 30 days is not
usually ideal.
So for some of these familiesthey've done this so many times
and they're just not all thatinvolved.
They've made those decisions tolet the person figure it out on
(16:01):
their own.
So I would say it's maybe halfand half.
You know, like half of thefamilies are super involved.
They want to know what's goingon, they want to be part of the
aftercare plan.
They are attending the meetings, but some of the families are,
you can tell, just very burnedout, compassion fatigue at this
point.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
So so I noticed that Ripple Ranch high completion
rate and also very, very highsatisfaction rate and I can
imagine that one of the greatestjoys that you have is seeing
someone go on to thrive.
So obviously you're havingresults and I'm curious, because
(16:42):
we are about thrivingindividuals, marriages and
families and you said early onthat we need that, like we need
that in society.
Are there any obviously notsharing names, but any
testimonies that you can share,chrissy, of maybe where there
was a family that before it wasdon't know how this is going to
end, but after you sawrestoration and you saw healing
(17:04):
and you saw a family go on toovercome this challenge of
mental health and substanceabuse?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I mean, we have so many examples and I can't.
The one that comes to mind thatI feel comfortable sharing
about again is our admissionscounselor that came through.
We have, you know, had a fewpeople that have come back.
I've been there three years, sowe have the two-year rule as
far as people coming back to getjobs.
(17:33):
We have one person that's gotseveral family members there now
working.
That went through our program,came and worked and now, you
know, has family members workingthere as well, and so that's
really beautiful to see thatthem using Ripple as kind of a
way to maintain theirrelationship by working together
(17:54):
.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And so we've heard a lot of different stories and
there are a lot of families,like you said, it's very common.
I mean, I think every familyprobably has at least one person
that is suffering fromaddiction or from any sort of
mental health type thing.
And so, yeah, I just reallyfelt, like Every couple of our
(18:16):
podcasts, we just try to addressthis issue because it's
affected our family, it'saffected a lot of families that
we know, and if there's any waythat we can bring just education
to people and just support, ifwe feel like we both are trained
ministers and we do a lot withinner healing and so part of
(18:37):
what we do is just really, Ifeel like we partner with people
like you, partner with peoplewho you know, have all of the
acronyms behind their name, youknow, and do all of the deep
work stuff, the deep trauma work, but feel like we can help also
come alongside those people andhelp people understand how to
relate to one another as youknow, families, how to really
(19:00):
get to the root of, you know,maybe some things with their
faith and their identity andthings like that.
So, yeah, we just thank you.
Thank you for just being onhere and and talking with us.
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I really appreciate it as well, chrissy.
I think, just substance abuseaside, like knowing that it,
like some of the root, can getto the mental health aspect, are
there any places that you wouldencourage people to maybe go
online resources thatimmediately come to mind, or
just any thoughts aroundquestions to ask yourself right
(19:35):
To?
Maybe I don't know what it is,but sometimes it's these honest
conversations that we have withourself and then when we start
to realize, ok, I'm not OK, yeah, what do I do next?
What do I do next?
Right, where do I go?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
So I think the way that we think about it from a
therapeutic standpoint is is isit something that's impacting
your functioning?
Because we literally will getpeople coming in with lots of
stuff going on and they're stillsaying I don't think, I have a
problem.
So when do you decide that youhave a problem?
(20:09):
And the way that we look at itand everybody has to figure it
out for themselves but the waywe look at it is is it impacting
your functioning?
So, do you, do you now havelegal troubles?
Do you have you know?
Have you lost your marriage?
Have you lost a job?
Are your children not talkingto you?
Have you lost all your money?
Are you having to sell yourhouse?
(20:31):
So as soon as you're seeingthese big life changes, that's
usually a good clue that this isgetting out unmanageable.
Right, and as far as where togo, it's, every state is really
different, every county isreally different, and so it
(20:52):
really depends on the resources.
In your area there is a numberthat you can call 211, and they
are a good resource to kind ofhelp you get started.
But if it's a substance useproblem, a lot of times you can
just call a treatment center,because even if they're not in
(21:12):
your area or they don't acceptyour insurance.
The people that answer thephones for treatment centers are
fairly well-trained in casemanagement or referring out.
So if somebody calls you andsays I'm in a really bad spot
and I don't know what to do,they can't just say sorry, we
can't accept you.
(21:33):
They have to help you find theright, get you started on the
right path.
So sometimes calling just afacility can be helpful.
A lot of times there'scommunity mental health in most
counties and that's across thenation.
So sometimes calling yourcommunity mental health can be a
good start.
Especially for people thatdon't have insurance.
(21:54):
That can be a resource.
So those are probably theplaces that I would start, based
on what I know.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Those are some good ones.
Yeah, yeah, 211.
Contact a mental healthfacility in your area or look
for community health outletsthat might be close to you.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, call a treatment center if you have one
near you, because even if theydon't take your insurance, they
can usually guide you to in theright direction.
Excellent.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Well, thank you so much, Chrissy.
This is really good and soimportant, so important for us
to.
I think everyone deserves, youknow, the opportunity to have a
thriving, healthy, whole andfulfilling life, and this is a
part of it right and dealingwith and overcoming these
challenges.
So thank you for the work thatyou're doing, that your team is
(22:45):
doing at Ripple, making adifference.
Like you said, you know at thebeginning, one individual at a
time, and I think that that'show God sees us.
We're all uniquely andwonderfully made and so he
designed us, and so the factthat you take the time to really
get to know each person thatcomes through the door and give
them exactly what they need, Ithink is just beautiful.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, thank you guys for focusing on family and
marriage, because I think thatthat's such an important core
value that our communities andour societies need so.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Amen.
Yeah we're going after it justlike you are All right.
Well, you have a wonderful,wonderful week ahead.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Oh, good to talk to you.
Thank you Likewise, Chrissy.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Thank you for listening to Seeds for your
Marriage with hosts Krisha andThomas Walker.
We pray this episode has givenyou tips and tools on how to
thrive in your marriage.
Be sure to subscribe to thispodcast and follow us on
Facebook and Instagram at Trishaand Thomas.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
We want to hear from you.
Be sure to leave a review andlet us know how we're doing.
It's our desire that thispodcast completely benefits you,
so also, let us know futuremarriage topics that you would
like to hear about.
everybody has to figure it out for themselves,
but the way we look at it is isit impacting your functioning?
Do you now have legal troubles?
Have you lost your marriage, ajob?
Are your children not talkingto you?
Thank you, guys for focusing onfamily and marriage, because I
think that's such an importantcore value that our communities
and our societies need Seeds foryour marriage.
(00:22):
Our societies need Seeds foryour marriage.
At a substance abuse treatmentcenter doing my internship, and
just being there for myinternship, of course you start
to see these patterns and I wasnoticing a lot of trauma with
the people that were there andthat seemed to be a common
thread, which is why I startedto pursue some of these trauma
(00:43):
treatments.
Having made a career out ofthis, I've been able to kind of
build on that theory that a lotof the people that we're dealing
with at a substance ortreatment centers all not all,
you can't say all, you never cansay all but I would say you
know most of them that I haveinteractions with or am working
(01:03):
with are struggling with mentalhealth issues.
So, for example, you might havesomeone come in who is using
meth and you have theopportunity to sit and talk with
them or do their intake and youfind out that they're having
some type of auditory or visualhallucinations.
(01:24):
Well, that can be meth, so candetoxing off of alcohol.
But then, as you're talking tothat person and getting a
history, you find out that maybethe first time they had a
visual hallucination was whenthey were six, okay, six years
old.
So now we're talking aboutthere's something was going on
there at a pretty young age andthen maybe on top of that you
(01:48):
find out that they were beingsexually abused or physically
abused really change theconnections in your brain and
the way that you view the worldand things can seem really scary
.
So you have to kind of go backand you have to build trust with
(02:09):
the person to kind of get allof that history and see where
the core issue is.
But sometimes it's really hardto pull apart substance use and
mental health.
But we have tours, sometimes atRipple, from other treatment
centers and they'll say, oh,it's so cool that you guys do
mental health, we don't do that,we just do substance use.
(02:40):
We don't do that, we just dosubstance use.
And I kind't think, don't thinkof them as separate issues.
But the people that come to aninpatient treatment facility.
But, that being said, you knowit can be anything from.
I mean, I'm thinking about, forinstance, our one of our
admissions specialists.
She shares her story all thetime, so I don't I know she
(03:01):
wouldn't mind me sharing somethings, but for her her rock
bottom was she had gotten acouple of DWIs.
She got arrested, was in jailfor another DWI and she thought
to herself I could really use adrink right now.
She came to Ripple.
She got sober two years laterbecause we required two years of
(03:23):
sobriety to come back and workfor us and she's been one of our
star admissions counselors eversince then and been able to be
a part of her kids' lives andher grandkids' lives.
And so you know, you have otherpeople that come in and they
just they have no family thatwill talk to them, they have no
support, they've spent all oftheir money, they are homeless,
(03:47):
they have lost their driver'slicense, they've had everything
stolen from them, like we haveliterally people come with
nothing.
So everybody's rock bottom is alittle bit different and the
population that we serve isreally diverse.
We have attorneys, we have,like I said, people that are
homeless, that have lost theirjobs, lost their family.
(04:08):
We have people that have lostchildren and have spiraled into
substance use as a way ofdealing with grief.
So it's really diverse.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yeah, I think that I would assume that for the
majority of the people, though,there are some mental health I
guess symptoms or the wholething around having family
trauma or trauma in someone'slife.
It started a long way backbefore they ever started using
right.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
I think maybe even the using of substance is
actually more of a symptom fromtrying to hide all of that pain
and so what we've tried to do,which I love yoga, by the way,
and I love meditation andgrounding, and those are all
really good tools calming yourcentral nervous system when you
have been through a lot oftrauma.
But sometimes we try to teachjust kind of sitting with your
(05:01):
emotions and learning how toretrain your brain.
That like it's okay to feeloverwhelmingly sad or
overwhelmingly frustrated, but Ithink the big thing that that
you're talking about too is thatone of the most probably
harmful emotions that peopleexperience and try to avoid as
(05:24):
shame.
And so when you've got somekind of abuse that happened
within the family, a lot oftimes there's shame surrounding
that.
And as children especially, wejust we kind of have this belief
that like the moon follows uswherever we go.
That's a very egocentric worldand so, of course, as children,
(05:45):
if something bad's happening tous, the natural reaction is well
, if I'm just a better kid or ifI can change the way I'm
behaving or keep somebody happy,then these things won't happen.
And yeah, it's reallyinteresting because I'd say that
a lot of times you see peoplecome into treatment, whether it
be in just mental health ingeneral or substance use
(06:06):
treatment, like in their earlythirties and it's almost seems
to be like that's the tippingpoint where, like I've been able
to kind of keep this togetherand maintain this like avoidance
that I'm doing, but at somepoint, if you don't deal with it
, it's going to implode on you,and so that's where we see I
(06:27):
think that's a really common agethat I see early thirties,
where people are like I justcan't do this anymore, like I
just can't, like my anxiety isout of control, my depression's
out of control.
So then the stigma within thefamilies, especially that can be
a cultural issue or, like yousaid, maybe there's some even
potential legal issues that canhappen with families.
(06:49):
We have to be really carefuland supportive of families so
that because the idea is we wantto like keep them together,
because we need our families andwe need our support systems I
mean, I can say more on thestigma, unless there's something
that you have that's like aspecific question about the
stigma.
But I think that beingself-aware, understanding the
(07:11):
facts, us as therapists, kind ofeducating families and
educating our clients, can helpwith the stigma.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
We talk a lot about lowering the waterline.
And you know, if you think about, the iceberg is what you see.
You know when you're, whenyou're on the waters, but what's
underneath is what's reallygoing on and and.
So if there's no safety, ifthere's not a feeling of
security and trust, and so thatvulnerability becomes really
important, and I think that kindof maybe connects to the stigma
(07:38):
which is for me to come out andsay I'm depressed or I'm this.
How do we combat that stigmaand get to a place where it's
okay to not be okay and alsoensure that there's the help,
the support and the servicesthat we have that we need to
help folks overcome and, as youtalked about, getting to the
(07:59):
root?
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, I mean I think it's a good question.
It's really interesting becauseI have three girls.
My youngest is 19.
And her generation is almostovercorrected in a way, I think,
because they just use theseterms.
Well, I'm bipolar, I have PTSD,I have anxiety.
They sort of use them in almosta flippant kind of help
(08:24):
normalize that that all familiesdeal with and some people deal
with it at certain times intheir family or in their life,
and sometimes it's a lifelongstruggle.
But it's just more, I think,more the norm than we realize.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
I 100% agree.
I'm so glad you said thatbecause I mean, even in our own
family, we have family membersthat have gone through different
bouts of mental health andsubstance abuse, and one of the
things that we, even Trisha andI, still talk about to this day
in some of our familyrelationships is the idea of
codependency.
There's a really fine linebetween that and you know,
(09:01):
chrissy, you were talking aboutthe fact that you involve the
whole family into supportingthose who you work with.
Just some thoughts on that.
And how do we get to a placewhere we can educate ourselves
as I think, people in the familyto know the difference and know
am I really helping this person, am I a codependent, and how do
(09:22):
we navigate that situation?
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I just kind of was exposed to some information
about the idea of codependencyand that whole idea kind of
where it comes from.
It is a 12-step AA concept.
There's been a lot of bookswritten about codependency.
There's very little evidencethat codependency actually
(09:44):
exists, so can't really diagnosepeople when they're in crisis.
We don't do that.
You'll see behaviors andsymptoms that aren't necessarily
always there.
So if we think aboutcodependency or people using
substances we're as a crisissituation, you can't really look
(10:04):
at the family and say, oh, thisis like, this is a diagnosis,
this is a disorder, and so wekind of feel like it's created a
lot of toxic responses tosubstance use in the substance
use world.
But I think there's not reallya perfect formula for it.
So one of the examples I heardwas a guy who his mom was an
(10:27):
alcoholic and he was also inrecovery and he shared the story
that one night his mom showedup.
She had been drinking, she'dbeen on the bender or whatever,
and she somehow managed to getherself.
It was raining and she managedto get herself to his house in a
taxi or something like that,but she didn't have her license
(10:49):
and she didn't have any money.
He called his sponsor and saidwhat do you think I should do?
Like my mom's, you know, hereshe has no, she has nothing.
He said I think you should notlet her in.
His mom was in her seventies orsomething.
He said there was.
There was no, no version of thestory where he was going to
leave his 70 year old mom out inthe rain with no you know.
(11:10):
And so that's just an example.
Not everybody goes to thoseextremes, but I think it's an
example of how, like, yes, weneed to set boundaries, but we
also that's those are our familymembers and we love them, and
so sometimes we do have to makedecisions based on do we think,
like, this person is going tolive or die if I don't help them
?
(11:30):
So you have to set thoseboundaries and you have to kind
of figure that out, I think, asyou go.
I myself had a child whostruggled with addiction.
So for me it was there wereconsiderations that we had, like
we had younger children in thehouse and so we couldn't allow
use in the house because wecould have lost the ability to
(11:51):
care for those younger children.
We had to make that a verystrict rule, but we had to just
also continue to love her andtry to make sure she was safe to
the best of our abilities, likefocus on the things that we had
control over, alsounderstanding that we could not
control her and her decisions.
So it's again that's why I sayit's.
(12:14):
Sometimes that's that createsmore questions, because there's
not, like there's not, a perfectformula for it.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yeah, but I really like what you're saying, though,
just around, instead of lookingat it as the term codependency,
really looking at the termboundaries and assessing our own
boundaries for ourself, likewhat are we allowing and what
are we not allowing for our ownlife and our own home?
But then what are theboundaries for the other person
to like?
What are we willing to acceptor not accept from their
(12:42):
behaviors?
And then even education, right,like you talked earlier just
about education, educatingourselves.
So if we are going through asituation with a family member
who is suffering from, you know,substance abuse or any sort of
mental health issue, likeeducating ourselves first
instead of just reacting, Iguess, to the situation, I think
(13:04):
that can be really helpful.
And then I think the other partis just community and allow us
to be overcome by that shame,but really, yeah, and that
connects to the love that youtalked about, chrissy.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
you know, leading with love.
I think that that's soimportant in anything that we do
is just, you know, letting thelove come through, and
relationships really matter too.
I think that connects to thecommunity piece, because
sometimes we want to control theoutcome and it's not within our
control.
So so, having trust in God andthat he's got it, and having
faith, I think, is also a very,very important component of what
(13:38):
we're talking about doing whathe believed, what we believe
he's telling us to do.
There's no blueprint for that.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, there really isn't, which makes it difficult.
I will add into that that youknow some common behaviors that
we see with people that are inactive addiction and they are
desperate they're in survivalmode, you know.
So they at times will pull outall the stops, make people feel
guilty, and just all the stopsmake people feel guilty and just
(14:09):
, I think, standing firm andunderstanding that that's the
addiction talking and that youcan't take that personally.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Well, what are some of the things that you do at
Ripo Ranch where you help tosupport the family and maybe the
education piece, so they kindof understand that.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So we do an online meeting for parents or family
members every Tuesday and that'sactually open to the community.
So it's not technically like aCODA meeting or you know it's
not because we do this dualdiagnosis.
So ours is just a little bitdifferent.
We focus on somepsychoeducation about different
(14:44):
types of diagnosis and educatefamily on what aftercare looks
like.
But it is open to anyone whowants to join.
It's a Zoom meeting that doesdepend on the person giving us
permission.
We do have to have a release ofinformation for us to
communicate with families.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
You find good participation from the family,
that many are willing to comearound and really go through the
online sessions and be thereand get the education and the
knowledge that they need toreally support aftercare and
when their family members leave.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It really depends on where the family is.
You know, unfortunately, weknow that I think that the
average is like eight treatmentcenters before you achieve
sobriety and I think that that'skind of I wish that we were
able to keep people longer.
Usually insurance pays forabout 30 days and you know, if
(15:38):
you've been using hard drugs for15 years, 30 days is not
usually ideal.
So for some of these familiesthey've done this so many times
and they're just not all thatinvolved.
They've made those decisions tolet the person figure it out on
(16:01):
their own.
So I would say it's maybe halfand half.
You know, like half of thefamilies are super involved.
They want to know what's goingon, they want to be part of the
aftercare plan.
They are attending the meetings, but some of the families are,
you can tell, just very burnedout, compassion fatigue at this
point.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
So so I noticed that Ripple Ranch high completion
rate and also very, very highsatisfaction rate and I can
imagine that one of the greatestjoys that you have is seeing
someone go on to thrive.
So obviously you're havingresults and I'm curious, because
(16:42):
we are about thrivingindividuals, marriages and
families and you said early onthat we need that, like we need
that in society.
Are there any obviously notsharing names, but any
testimonies that you can share,chrissy, of maybe where there
was a family that before it wasdon't know how this is going to
end, but after you sawrestoration and you saw healing
(17:04):
and you saw a family go on toovercome this challenge of
mental health and substanceabuse?
Speaker 1 (17:11):
I mean, we have so many examples and I can't.
The one that comes to mind thatI feel comfortable sharing
about again is our admissionscounselor that came through.
We have, you know, had a fewpeople that have come back.
I've been there three years, sowe have the two-year rule as
far as people coming back to getjobs.
(17:33):
We have one person that's gotseveral family members there now
working.
That went through our program,came and worked and now, you
know, has family members workingthere as well, and so that's
really beautiful to see thatthem using Ripple as kind of a
way to maintain theirrelationship by working together
(17:54):
.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And so we've heard a lot of different stories and
there are a lot of families,like you said, it's very common.
I mean, I think every familyprobably has at least one person
that is suffering fromaddiction or from any sort of
mental health type thing.
And so, yeah, I just reallyfelt, like Every couple of our
(18:16):
podcasts, we just try to addressthis issue because it's
affected our family, it'saffected a lot of families that
we know, and if there's any waythat we can bring just education
to people and just support, ifwe feel like we both are trained
ministers and we do a lot withinner healing and so part of
(18:37):
what we do is just really, Ifeel like we partner with people
like you, partner with peoplewho you know, have all of the
acronyms behind their name, youknow, and do all of the deep
work stuff, the deep trauma work, but feel like we can help also
come alongside those people andhelp people understand how to
relate to one another as youknow, families, how to really
(19:00):
get to the root of, you know,maybe some things with their
faith and their identity andthings like that.
So, yeah, we just thank you.
Thank you for just being onhere and and talking with us.
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I really appreciate it as well, chrissy.
I think, just substance abuseaside, like knowing that it,
like some of the root, can getto the mental health aspect, are
there any places that you wouldencourage people to maybe go
online resources thatimmediately come to mind, or
just any thoughts aroundquestions to ask yourself right
(19:35):
To?
Maybe I don't know what it is,but sometimes it's these honest
conversations that we have withourself and then when we start
to realize, ok, I'm not OK, yeah, what do I do next?
What do I do next?
Right, where do I go?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
So I think the way that we think about it from a
therapeutic standpoint is is isit something that's impacting
your functioning?
Because we literally will getpeople coming in with lots of
stuff going on and they're stillsaying I don't think, I have a
problem.
So when do you decide that youhave a problem?
(20:09):
And the way that we look at itand everybody has to figure it
out for themselves but the waywe look at it is is it impacting
your functioning?
So, do you, do you now havelegal troubles?
Do you have you know?
Have you lost your marriage?
Have you lost a job?
Are your children not talkingto you?
Have you lost all your money?
Are you having to sell yourhouse?
(20:31):
So as soon as you're seeingthese big life changes, that's
usually a good clue that this isgetting out unmanageable.
Right, and as far as where togo, it's, every state is really
different, every county isreally different, and so it
(20:52):
really depends on the resources.
In your area there is a numberthat you can call 211, and they
are a good resource to kind ofhelp you get started.
But if it's a substance useproblem, a lot of times you can
just call a treatment center,because even if they're not in
(21:12):
your area or they don't acceptyour insurance.
The people that answer thephones for treatment centers are
fairly well-trained in casemanagement or referring out.
So if somebody calls you andsays I'm in a really bad spot
and I don't know what to do,they can't just say sorry, we
can't accept you.
(21:33):
They have to help you find theright, get you started on the
right path.
So sometimes calling just afacility can be helpful.
A lot of times there'scommunity mental health in most
counties and that's across thenation.
So sometimes calling yourcommunity mental health can be a
good start.
Especially for people thatdon't have insurance.
(21:54):
That can be a resource.
So those are probably theplaces that I would start, based
on what I know.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Those are some good ones.
Yeah, yeah, 211.
Contact a mental healthfacility in your area or look
for community health outletsthat might be close to you.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Yeah, call a treatment center if you have one
near you, because even if theydon't take your insurance, they
can usually guide you to in theright direction.
Excellent.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Well, thank you so much, Chrissy.
This is really good and soimportant, so important for us
to.
I think everyone deserves, youknow, the opportunity to have a
thriving, healthy, whole andfulfilling life, and this is a
part of it right and dealingwith and overcoming these
challenges.
So thank you for the work thatyou're doing, that your team is
(22:45):
doing at Ripple, making adifference.
Like you said, you know at thebeginning, one individual at a
time, and I think that that'show God sees us.
We're all uniquely andwonderfully made and so he
designed us, and so the factthat you take the time to really
get to know each person thatcomes through the door and give
them exactly what they need, Ithink is just beautiful.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah, thank you guys for focusing on family and
marriage, because I think thatthat's such an important core
value that our communities andour societies need so.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Amen.
Yeah we're going after it justlike you are All right.
Well, you have a wonderful,wonderful week ahead.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Oh, good to talk to you.
Thank you Likewise, Chrissy.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Thank you for listening to Seeds for your
Marriage with hosts Krisha andThomas Walker.
We pray this episode has givenyou tips and tools on how to
thrive in your marriage.
Be sure to subscribe to thispodcast and follow us on
Facebook and Instagram at Trishaand Thomas.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
We want to hear from you.
Be sure to leave a review andlet us know how we're doing.
It's our desire that thispodcast completely benefits you,
so also, let us know futuremarriage topics that you would
like to hear about.
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