June 3, 2024 • 29 mins
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How To Grow Your Self Awareness: The Key To Understanding Yourself
Equipping Couples w/ Marriage Skills
Guests: Sherod & Phyllis Miller
âś… Get access - our FREE resources for couples are designed to help effective communication in marriage, resolve marriage issues, & build stronger connections (articles, videos, and interactive tools) here: https://trishaandthomas.com/free-resources/
🔸Sherod and Phyllis Miller discuss their background and the development of the Couple Communication™ Program. They emphasize the importance of equipping couples rather than just repairing relationships. They introduce the concept of a healthy marriage as a dance between togetherness and individuality. They explain the Couple Communication Program, which includes teaching couples how to talk and listen effectively, and the use of the Awareness Wheel to understand wants and needs. They differentiate between compromise and collaboration in a relationship, highlighting the importance of working together to find a solution that meets the interests of both partners and the relationship as a whole. In this conversation, the topic of sacrifice in a marriage is explored. The guests discuss the importance of taking a long-term view and considering what is best for the relationship and family in the long run. They emphasize the need for collaboration and communication in making sacrifices, rather than one person always being the one to sacrifice. They also discuss the challenges of sacrifice, such as moving and leaving behind friends, and the importance of open and respectful conversations about wants and needs. The guests highlight the benefits of investing in marriage skills and the impact it can have on financial, emotional, and physical well-being. They also touch on the importance of self-awareness and faith in navigating sacrifices and building a strong relationship.
To learn more about the Couple Communication Program, go here:
https://couplecommunication.com/
We are Trisha and Thomas Walker, licensed ministers, relationship coaches, & prayer counselors where we teach couples how to deepen their relationship with each other and with God. This is the Seeds For Your Marriage podcast where we share biblical wisdom and practical advice on building a strong, healthy, and fulfilling marriage rooted in faith. These marriage stories are to inspire you and give you a deeper understanding of God's design for marriage and steps to having a Christ-centered and thriving family.
For more visit:
https://trishaandthomas.com/podcast/
Learn about Trisha and Thomas Walker and their ministry, LGLP Ministries, Inc, visit:
https://trishaandthomas.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
As I move from trying torepair to quit relationships
(00:05):
compromise reallyis a set of trades
I'll do this if you dothat Seeds for your marriage
All rightIt is official It is official
Welcome to Seedsfor your Marriage podcast
I'm Thomas and I'm TriciaAnd we are joined today
by Phyllis and Sherrod MillerAnd we are just
so thrilled to have you with usOur journey
(00:26):
started with you in 2010 2010So we've been
we've been with youfor 14 years and counting
So welcome to the Seedsfor your marriage podcast
And let's get startedI had an internship
at the court servicesin Minneapolis
and the county court serviceand part of my job
(00:47):
was to evaluate kidswhether they
should get married or notThey were teenagers
Let's put it that wayYeah there was The law
was if a girl was 16she needed parent or court
permission to marryAnd so that's where
some would come to the courtto see if the court
would sign off for themThe irony of the thing was
(01:08):
all they had to dois drive to South Dakota
and get marriedbecause their the law was age
15 four or 14 I thinkWell anyway it was younger
and the so it wasyou know kind of fruitless
I thoughtAnd so what occurred to me
is rather thantry and evaluate these these
kids because they were reallyI would say 95% of the couples
(01:34):
the girl was already pregnantSo I thought well let's shift
and start offering a classto equip them rather than
try and prevent them or whateverAnyway And that was huge
in my mind And what shiftedas I move from trying to repair
(01:55):
to equip relationships And sofrom that time on
and at the universitythere were colleagues there
We were in graduateschool together
and we started to developwhat's now known as
coupled communicationAnd so the thrust
is really been on equippingpeople to do better together
(02:16):
rather than waitingtill they're on the ropes
and go for repair I love thatI love the comment
instead of repairI want to equip them I just
I love that Yeah it's proactiveinstead of reactive by nature
It's educationalEven though for some couples
it can betherapeutic or you know
(02:37):
fit in counselingSo it it kind of fits
the spectrum I think Welland what
we've learned over the yearsI think is that good therapy
has an equipping elementin it And the couples
program is usedby a lot of therapists as well
as in other more educationalor developmental
(02:59):
settings or churchesprimarily and
and schools so forthI can tell you
we are a case of one marriagethat you have equipped us
to actually helpto build a healthy marriage
Our own marriageOur own marriage
First rate starts with usBreaking starts
It does start with us And I'mcurious Phyllis and Sharon
(03:21):
just healthy is the word I useAnd I'm curious your definition
or how you think abouta healthy marriage Well let me
show you somethingthat's really kind of
a simple Okay I thinkusing my hands here
and by the wayyou'll see a little shape
is that I have what's calledan essential tremor
It's a Swedishgene runs through her family
(03:44):
cousins a dentistthink of two people Okay?
Each man's a person hereand when they come together
they join You knowthey have fun together
they make loveand then sometimes they fight
Okay?
And argue that that'stogetherness in a sense
Then there's a time whenthey're apart
and that you see both handshere I can see
(04:08):
So you know she goes to workand whatever her day is
and activitiesand he's into his day
and so forth So they're togetherAnd then there's a partner's
and there's akind of a flow of that So
and then there's the timewhen she leads and he follows
And there's a time when he leadsand she follows
(04:28):
And so if you think about itnow when my experience
when couples get in troubleis they get stuck
they can't get togetherbecause they fight too much
They're afraid to get apartin it or they spend
a lot of time apart becausesomething is not working here
(04:49):
And more traditionallythe man's led
and the woman's followedAnd in that becomes a pattern
So they kind of get togetheronce in a while
and then he leadsAnd what's missing
is her leading and hisaccepting their influence
So with that shaky illustrationfor me a really healthy marriage
(05:11):
is one thatthat has this dance of
all the stepsall the possibilities in it
it counts their individualityand their togetherness
I love them All rightYeah That's so good Yeah I think
early in the earlyin the collaborative
marriage skills you talk abouttwo powerful people
(05:32):
And I think that you knowyou talk about the fact
that I am I'm an individualwhich is an individual
There's a me andbut there's also that
we componentAnd I think that's exactly
what you're speaking to ushow to move through life
with that flow and wherewe don't lose
ourselves in each otherWe maintain our individuality
but we also build thatthat sense of connection
(05:52):
and togethernessAnd one of the goals
of the couplecommunication program
is to help each personbe stronger in the sense
that they can speakeach of them for themselves
with caring for the othercaring for themselves
the other personand for their relationship
(06:16):
And so I thinkall of those are important
Yeah absolutely Yeah I meanjust the way that God made us
he made us unique And we eachwhen we come when we get married
we each bring our our strengthsinto that relationship
And my strength might not beThomas's and Thomas's
(06:37):
might not be mineSo just if you're we you know
if we're ableto work together and learn in
what situations I leadand what situations
Thomas leads it really helpswith the marriage
to move forward togetherAnd you know like you said
then you end up spendingless time fighting
Yes So wheneverI was really able
(06:57):
to get fully like really be ableto work the wheel and start
getting to the deeper onesfor not only for me
but for us for the familyI was actually able
to realize thatthe root of really why
I wanted to homeschoolwith my children
(07:18):
is because I really wanted toI really wanted them to grow up
where they knew the Lordand they knew
they had a good foundationin understanding Christ
how to relate to ChristAnd I was in the understanding
that the only waythat was going to happen
is if I homeschooled themYeah but you have to be able
(07:38):
to talk about itto have time in way
but in a healthy wayThat's the essence of
of this And Sharon I rememberyou always talking about
the secret sauce OkayYeah that is that is one piece
I think ofwhat would we call it?
A framework a map that we teachin couple communication
(08:03):
And there wouldyou will map just a bit
And then the part that he callsthat you have called
the secret sauce becauseyeah let's literally
save the secret saucebecause we're have
for just a moment and just yeahit's like running a commercial
and you know we're sorrywe're cutting away
you know come backI'll tell you that secret
(08:24):
and then you got to stay tunedAll right Here's the commercial
First of all let let's just realbriefly say what we developed
at the Universityof Minnesota in research
was a programcalled Couple Communication
And basicallythere are four units
or four segments And we want tobriefly mention that
(08:47):
because you'll see how thesecret sauce positions in
there But the first sessionwe teach in each of the sessions
we teach what I call mapscognitive maps mental maps
and thenskill associated with it
So on these mapsone map is to teach people
(09:08):
how to talk together Anotherhow to listen to one another
how to put these togetherAnd I think it begins
with a map of how people talkAnd we call
it styles of communicationAnd they're really
I don't want to detail themYou can look it up
(09:29):
on the Internetthat more information But anyway
how people talk effective waysand in effective ways
is the first sessionand then they look at themselves
And now our systemhow do we talk to each other
and how much percentand small talk
how much in in shop talkcontrol talk quite spite
(09:50):
And then what we call searchtalk and aware talk And those
there's a map of this and peoplefind themself in the map
where they areand where they'd like to go
That's the nice thingabout a map shows
you where you areand gives you a choice
an alternativeIt really comes down to
very powerfulLet me say in the 1970s when
(10:16):
we first started developing thisemotions were really a big deal
It's kind of likegetting in touch
with your emotionsEverything would fall together
by the way The wheelevery one of those
zones are importantand they're all going on
This is the stuff that's insideof us as we interact
with the outside worldSo I don't want to
(10:39):
overemphasize one zoneto the other
They're all importantBut what we found is the thing
that's been least developed inin the literature
and so forth isthe business around wants
and they're very powerfulSo when we first
developed the wheelmany years ago
(11:00):
we had under want zone selfwe did not have other and us
and they didn't mean to dothat because each of the
zones would be what I thinkwhat I've seen and heard
what I did or what I will dowhat my emotions are
So at the beginningit was just what do I want
(11:24):
without considerationfor what I might want
for our relationshipor for what?
What I might want for my partnerthat my partner would say Yes
I would want thatSo what we were doing
and unknowinglyand inadvertently
(11:45):
is teaching peopleto be flaming narcissist
in in the sensethat it fills with
say what she want and I'd saywhat I want Pretty forceful Okay
So anyway what's going on isnow that I've told you
all about my wheeland I've said what I want
I should get itAnd literally for some years
(12:08):
that's what we were teachingAnd what we didn't realize
is there was no bridgethere was no other
in the system Andso that changed and it was huge
So let me startwith wants for self
Those are real importantThey're legitimate in somebody
(12:30):
who has a poor sense of themselfhas trouble speaking their wants
or knowing their wantsand the really problematic
thing is when somebody doesn'tspeak their wants
and put it out on the tableand in a sense make it known
and negotiableit becomes a hidden agenda
(12:52):
And so that you havethis powerful force that I'm not
telling you about thatI really want that's
making interactionsand decisions and life screwy
and unknown in many waysSo to be able to put your wants
on the table doesn't meanI get everything I want but
(13:15):
it's counting myself inSo that's an important piece
But I'm notthe only person in the system
and you want to talkWell it's the relationship
So we added to this iswhat do I want for my partner?
That my partner agreesthat yes I would like that
(13:37):
or based on mypartner's interests
what do I want for youbased on your interests
which as you said for examplemaybe my partner wants to
go back to school and getsome further education
or training that kind of thingAnd what that means
(13:57):
is that's morecosts for the family
or that might beall kinds of things
That might mean that my partnercan't work as much
to earn money or whateverand maybe me as a partner would
or the partner would sayWell I'd like you to do that too
How can we figure that out?
(14:19):
And the third want iswhat would be
wants for our relationship?
What what would help forboth this a relationship?
So you're thinking in termsof all of those aspects of it
That becomes a way to negotiatehow we can get to some of that
(14:40):
It might take longerto go to school than you know
I had maybe originally thoughtor it might
take some kind of adjustmentsome way But getting all of
those wants out is importantrather than keeping it
part of it hiddenand doing some kind of
underhanded ways to seeif I can get what I would like
(15:04):
And they talk about compromiseWell I'm compromising for you
and I'm compromisingin this situation and
but I'm not getting what I wantor whatever
the situation is And I thinkback to this example
that I gave with our childrenand the homeschooling versus
Christian school situationAnd if all if
(15:24):
the idea was compromised thenone of us would
have said okay willyou just homeschool then?
And like Thomas Curtissaid you just homeschool
then and we'll justwe'll just make it work
And there'd be someresentment there Exactly
There'd be some resentmentSo you all talk
about collaborationand how to have a
(15:46):
collaborative marriageAnd so I would love for you
to talk about the differencebetween compromise
and collaborationin a relationship Lester
With compromise Yeah go aheadYeah Yeah Well compromise
really is a set of tradesI'll do this if you do that
(16:06):
All right?
I give you a gift to get YesAnd I gain something
and I lose somethingYou gain something
and you lose something Andso what that
is is for some peoplethat's the highest level
they can ever get to Butit's fragile Well partly
(16:27):
what makes it fragileis when I think about it
what do I think about whatI got or what I gave up?
Yeah most peoplethat had biological parents
which by the way as everybodythink all kinds of stories
you know about Butwe're all human And you know we
(16:52):
we think about what wegive up in and lose
more than we getAnd that is often
a set up for failure of whateverthe dispute is
or the issue is or whateverthe the problem is
that you're trying to doOn the other hand what the
the other thing about thatsoon is
(17:12):
you said you would do thisand I said I'd do this
It's conditional OkaySo as soon as I see
you not doing what you saidyou would do
that gives me permissionnot to do what I do
Or a little slip up or a slip upYeah Yeah And
so I'm My eyes are on youand not on what I
contribute or how I respondSo that whole mindset
(17:36):
as you say you see it on TVand you see it
in our political worldwhere it can't even get that far
Yeah you knowit compromises this
the highest order you get tobut it's in many cases
seen as a bad word nowSo how do you transcend
compromise to a what really iscalled collaboration?
(17:58):
Okay And collaborationis really working
together effectivelyto make a decision
or resolve a conflictAnd I think really
it requires both some skilland some goodwill
both of those kinds of thingsYeah When when that's not
(18:20):
there is an underlyingthat I care about you
and I care about methen all the kind of
spiteful kind of communicationthe argument
the fight as opposed toa focus by the way
we've developed kind ofI don't know we've developed it
but we're using a new wordthat my colleague
and I have just written a booktwo workbooks
(18:42):
just on the awareness wheeland we call
What We Talk About asinner action I and e r Actio n
So usingthe wheel is interaction
The skills arereally interaction skills
many of them as wellSo any way based on
(19:06):
collaboration is basedon your wheel And my wheel
that we can both discloseWe draw on my experience
in your experienceand that means that each person
has to put it out thereMy experience in a respectful
kind of way and it's based onwants for my partner myself
(19:30):
and us as a relationshipSo it the skill part
would come in tousing the talking skills that
that are taught in the couplecommunication program
and the listening skillsto bring that together to
work out a decision in the mapsThe maps as you said help
(19:54):
structure that and promptit become kind of a platform
for that But the the issueyou mentioned about schooling
with your kids once you'vereally discovered your
your interest at a deeper leveland fuller level
really broader levelwhat's really important
(20:15):
then it takes youvery naturally to okay now
how do we implement this?
Because you options you knowand with that the spirit behind
it is very different It isAnd I'll do this
if you do that it's okayWe've built an agreement here
What are we going to doand how next steps
how do we create it together?
(20:36):
Yeah Yes And sowe find a solution that
we call a best fit solutionthat takes into account one
another's wants ofboth of us in inner
for the relationshipAnd in your case the
the US can extendmaybe beyond the partner
(20:56):
your father us of our familyRight That's really good
The sacrifice occursIt's an important thing
But sacrifice would be a mutualkind of sacrifice
That's right Yeah And in thatI think with
it comes a longer term viewA lot of time sacrifice is
(21:19):
kind of what I do nowand what I'm upset or unhappy
about what I have to sacrificenow That's
where the US is thinkinglonger term If there's
a US in a relationshipI will sacrifice for it
sometimesSo it's as force and mutual
The other piece is that workoften can happen in sacrifice
(21:43):
is one persondoes the sacrificing
and the other person doesn'tAnd so you get a pattern
that's not healthy And rememberthe coming together going apart
one leads one followsthe other leads when follows
But in sacrifice one leadsand the other one
sacrifice to always followAnd it's never
(22:04):
goes the other wayBut I have to say I think in
our own relationshipI don't see much sacrifice
Occasionally we dobut I think we more figure
things outbased on Phyllis's interests
my interests and how can wemake those both fit
and sacrifice kind of evaporatesBut very often say with
(22:28):
health care or disability orother you know
change in jobs or commutingor you know there are a
lot of external impactsthat that hit us that we look at
sacrifice is how can I transcendjust my interests
at this moment or longer termfor the good of
(22:51):
sometimes for spiritual goodand for relational health?
And and Ithink there's a question of
long term what is betterfor the relationship
long term what is betterfor our family long term
and thinking of more than thejust the now?
Because I thinkwe live in a word world
(23:14):
of immediacyYou know what do I want now?
What?
I don't want togive up something
You know I want it nowAnd sometimes it takes
a longer term viewand perhaps we can see that
having a longer termrelationship more that you know
How long have you been married?
Oh my goodnessForever Over 60 years
(23:39):
We're pushing not 63 No no no 60We're 61 and a half to be exact
So that's that's a long timeBut I tell you we started it
We're still working on tryingto create a collaborative
operating system Is thatthis is a lifetime journey
I wouldn't saya lifetime project
(23:59):
but we're working at it Andbut when we signed on
and he's learned really wellwhen we signed on
rather than a collaborativeoperating system
See I didn't singwhen growing up I mean I didn't
I didn't my folks did a lot ofgood things together
but it wasn't alwaysreal collaborative
(24:20):
It was dad leads mom followskind of situation
So when we got marriedwe had a unilateral
operating system you knowand Phyllis was good follower
for a whileand then things started
changing MemberAlso thinking about money
and how money decisionswere made some way
(24:42):
I was talking withmy folks about it
and I was workingI think teaching
probably school earlyin our marriage together before
I did a work in corporationsBut I said something
to my parents about Wellwell I make money Sharon
makes the decisionson how the money is spent
(25:02):
And my dad saidAnd that's the way
it's supposed to be That's rightI had good backup but
that was her dad to bring itfrom the validation I think
Well my parents I would sayhad a nice relationship
And I think Sharon'sparents did too By the way
(25:24):
He thought I was excuse mebut he thought I was me
and he was tzachi Oh well you'retalking about
a TV show All in the FamilyAnd Archie was the father
in law of type of thing AnywayI forgot what I was going to say
except that you know that'show it was
(25:45):
that we learned as a coupleand we learned
really from the couplecommunication program
that he was developing abouthow to be more collaborative
And I think definitelywe are more collaborative now
and it's important to in my viewit's important at every stage
(26:06):
in a relationship in ain a marriage
particularly in datingWell whether Yeah but in every
stage of the relationshipWell we were
maybe getting our schoolingbefore we had children
And we certainlywith children it's
very importantAnd then when they leave
how we live our lives togetherand just how we get navigate
(26:31):
some of the issues we haveat this point in our lives
whether it's with health careor things like that
So I think at every stagein a couple relationship
and it's importantwhen you asked about sacrifice
and you got more than thatbut sacrifice
I think as Sherrod's saysto sum up
(26:52):
as more of a long term lookYeah Well
the other thing I like aboutis is I'm hearing
when you take that longterm view and you have
healthy conversations aroundwhat it is your interests
are making sacrificeswhere we're at choice
and having consciousconversations and being able
(27:12):
to willingly sayI am willing to lay this down
for the good of our relationshipAnd I feel really good
about that as opposedto being coerced or manipulated
into giving up somethingI think there's
a real differencebetween how one sacrifices
this difference in the worldBy the way Thomas
I wanted to pick upI'm going to borrow from you
(27:34):
I love your phraseSpeaking of the awareness
wheel as a tool to unpacka situation
I've never thought of itin that terms but that's exactly
what that tools for unpackingwhat's going on inside of me
stopping to reflect it and thentrying to put the parts together
(27:54):
concurrentlyso that I live can grow
I think over the years for usin our own relationship
we've had all the challengesthat everybody else has had
And the part of it is maybe notall of them not all we've had
We missed one Wellwe haven't had
all of them And I know thatalthough
(28:15):
there are more to come worknow I'm nervous anyway
that it's going to setover our lives Over our lives?
Oh yeah Trying to livecan grow really
with our faith with ourwhat we teach with the skills
(28:37):
that and that's partlythat our relationships
keep being trying to liveconcurrently in the community
and with our people isthat's a high value
I guess I'd say Thank youfor listening to Seeds
for your marriage with hostsKrista and Thomas Walker
We pray this episode has givenyou tips and tools
(28:57):
and how to thrivein your marriage
Be sure to subscribeto this podcast
and follow us on Facebookand Instagram
at Tricia and ThomasWe want to hear from you
Be sure to leave a reviewand let us know how we're doing
It's our desirethat this podcast
completely benefits youSo also let us know future
marriage topics that youwould like to hear about
As I move from trying torepair to quit relationships
(00:05):
compromise reallyis a set of trades
I'll do this if you dothat Seeds for your marriage
All rightIt is official It is official
Welcome to Seedsfor your Marriage podcast
I'm Thomas and I'm TriciaAnd we are joined today
by Phyllis and Sherrod MillerAnd we are just
so thrilled to have you with usOur journey
(00:26):
started with you in 2010 2010So we've been
we've been with youfor 14 years and counting
So welcome to the Seedsfor your marriage podcast
And let's get startedI had an internship
at the court servicesin Minneapolis
and the county court serviceand part of my job
(00:47):
was to evaluate kidswhether they
should get married or notThey were teenagers
Let's put it that wayYeah there was The law
was if a girl was 16she needed parent or court
permission to marryAnd so that's where
some would come to the courtto see if the court
would sign off for themThe irony of the thing was
(01:08):
all they had to dois drive to South Dakota
and get marriedbecause their the law was age
15 four or 14 I thinkWell anyway it was younger
and the so it wasyou know kind of fruitless
I thoughtAnd so what occurred to me
is rather thantry and evaluate these these
kids because they were reallyI would say 95% of the couples
(01:34):
the girl was already pregnantSo I thought well let's shift
and start offering a classto equip them rather than
try and prevent them or whateverAnyway And that was huge
in my mind And what shiftedas I move from trying to repair
(01:55):
to equip relationships And sofrom that time on
and at the universitythere were colleagues there
We were in graduateschool together
and we started to developwhat's now known as
coupled communicationAnd so the thrust
is really been on equippingpeople to do better together
(02:16):
rather than waitingtill they're on the ropes
and go for repair I love thatI love the comment
instead of repairI want to equip them I just
I love that Yeah it's proactiveinstead of reactive by nature
It's educationalEven though for some couples
it can betherapeutic or you know
(02:37):
fit in counselingSo it it kind of fits
the spectrum I think Welland what
we've learned over the yearsI think is that good therapy
has an equipping elementin it And the couples
program is usedby a lot of therapists as well
as in other more educationalor developmental
(02:59):
settings or churchesprimarily and
and schools so forthI can tell you
we are a case of one marriagethat you have equipped us
to actually helpto build a healthy marriage
Our own marriageOur own marriage
First rate starts with usBreaking starts
It does start with us And I'mcurious Phyllis and Sharon
(03:21):
just healthy is the word I useAnd I'm curious your definition
or how you think abouta healthy marriage Well let me
show you somethingthat's really kind of
a simple Okay I thinkusing my hands here
and by the wayyou'll see a little shape
is that I have what's calledan essential tremor
It's a Swedishgene runs through her family
(03:44):
cousins a dentistthink of two people Okay?
Each man's a person hereand when they come together
they join You knowthey have fun together
they make loveand then sometimes they fight
Okay?
And argue that that'stogetherness in a sense
Then there's a time whenthey're apart
and that you see both handshere I can see
(04:08):
So you know she goes to workand whatever her day is
and activitiesand he's into his day
and so forth So they're togetherAnd then there's a partner's
and there's akind of a flow of that So
and then there's the timewhen she leads and he follows
And there's a time when he leadsand she follows
(04:28):
And so if you think about itnow when my experience
when couples get in troubleis they get stuck
they can't get togetherbecause they fight too much
They're afraid to get apartin it or they spend
a lot of time apart becausesomething is not working here
(04:49):
And more traditionallythe man's led
and the woman's followedAnd in that becomes a pattern
So they kind of get togetheronce in a while
and then he leadsAnd what's missing
is her leading and hisaccepting their influence
So with that shaky illustrationfor me a really healthy marriage
(05:11):
is one thatthat has this dance of
all the stepsall the possibilities in it
it counts their individualityand their togetherness
I love them All rightYeah That's so good Yeah I think
early in the earlyin the collaborative
marriage skills you talk abouttwo powerful people
(05:32):
And I think that you knowyou talk about the fact
that I am I'm an individualwhich is an individual
There's a me andbut there's also that
we componentAnd I think that's exactly
what you're speaking to ushow to move through life
with that flow and wherewe don't lose
ourselves in each otherWe maintain our individuality
but we also build thatthat sense of connection
(05:52):
and togethernessAnd one of the goals
of the couplecommunication program
is to help each personbe stronger in the sense
that they can speakeach of them for themselves
with caring for the othercaring for themselves
the other personand for their relationship
(06:16):
And so I thinkall of those are important
Yeah absolutely Yeah I meanjust the way that God made us
he made us unique And we eachwhen we come when we get married
we each bring our our strengthsinto that relationship
And my strength might not beThomas's and Thomas's
(06:37):
might not be mineSo just if you're we you know
if we're ableto work together and learn in
what situations I leadand what situations
Thomas leads it really helpswith the marriage
to move forward togetherAnd you know like you said
then you end up spendingless time fighting
Yes So wheneverI was really able
(06:57):
to get fully like really be ableto work the wheel and start
getting to the deeper onesfor not only for me
but for us for the familyI was actually able
to realize thatthe root of really why
I wanted to homeschoolwith my children
(07:18):
is because I really wanted toI really wanted them to grow up
where they knew the Lordand they knew
they had a good foundationin understanding Christ
how to relate to ChristAnd I was in the understanding
that the only waythat was going to happen
is if I homeschooled themYeah but you have to be able
(07:38):
to talk about itto have time in way
but in a healthy wayThat's the essence of
of this And Sharon I rememberyou always talking about
the secret sauce OkayYeah that is that is one piece
I think ofwhat would we call it?
A framework a map that we teachin couple communication
(08:03):
And there wouldyou will map just a bit
And then the part that he callsthat you have called
the secret sauce becauseyeah let's literally
save the secret saucebecause we're have
for just a moment and just yeahit's like running a commercial
and you know we're sorrywe're cutting away
you know come backI'll tell you that secret
(08:24):
and then you got to stay tunedAll right Here's the commercial
First of all let let's just realbriefly say what we developed
at the Universityof Minnesota in research
was a programcalled Couple Communication
And basicallythere are four units
or four segments And we want tobriefly mention that
(08:47):
because you'll see how thesecret sauce positions in
there But the first sessionwe teach in each of the sessions
we teach what I call mapscognitive maps mental maps
and thenskill associated with it
So on these mapsone map is to teach people
(09:08):
how to talk together Anotherhow to listen to one another
how to put these togetherAnd I think it begins
with a map of how people talkAnd we call
it styles of communicationAnd they're really
I don't want to detail themYou can look it up
(09:29):
on the Internetthat more information But anyway
how people talk effective waysand in effective ways
is the first sessionand then they look at themselves
And now our systemhow do we talk to each other
and how much percentand small talk
how much in in shop talkcontrol talk quite spite
(09:50):
And then what we call searchtalk and aware talk And those
there's a map of this and peoplefind themself in the map
where they areand where they'd like to go
That's the nice thingabout a map shows
you where you areand gives you a choice
an alternativeIt really comes down to
very powerfulLet me say in the 1970s when
(10:16):
we first started developing thisemotions were really a big deal
It's kind of likegetting in touch
with your emotionsEverything would fall together
by the way The wheelevery one of those
zones are importantand they're all going on
This is the stuff that's insideof us as we interact
with the outside worldSo I don't want to
(10:39):
overemphasize one zoneto the other
They're all importantBut what we found is the thing
that's been least developed inin the literature
and so forth isthe business around wants
and they're very powerfulSo when we first
developed the wheelmany years ago
(11:00):
we had under want zone selfwe did not have other and us
and they didn't mean to dothat because each of the
zones would be what I thinkwhat I've seen and heard
what I did or what I will dowhat my emotions are
So at the beginningit was just what do I want
(11:24):
without considerationfor what I might want
for our relationshipor for what?
What I might want for my partnerthat my partner would say Yes
I would want thatSo what we were doing
and unknowinglyand inadvertently
(11:45):
is teaching peopleto be flaming narcissist
in in the sensethat it fills with
say what she want and I'd saywhat I want Pretty forceful Okay
So anyway what's going on isnow that I've told you
all about my wheeland I've said what I want
I should get itAnd literally for some years
(12:08):
that's what we were teachingAnd what we didn't realize
is there was no bridgethere was no other
in the system Andso that changed and it was huge
So let me startwith wants for self
Those are real importantThey're legitimate in somebody
(12:30):
who has a poor sense of themselfhas trouble speaking their wants
or knowing their wantsand the really problematic
thing is when somebody doesn'tspeak their wants
and put it out on the tableand in a sense make it known
and negotiableit becomes a hidden agenda
(12:52):
And so that you havethis powerful force that I'm not
telling you about thatI really want that's
making interactionsand decisions and life screwy
and unknown in many waysSo to be able to put your wants
on the table doesn't meanI get everything I want but
(13:15):
it's counting myself inSo that's an important piece
But I'm notthe only person in the system
and you want to talkWell it's the relationship
So we added to this iswhat do I want for my partner?
That my partner agreesthat yes I would like that
(13:37):
or based on mypartner's interests
what do I want for youbased on your interests
which as you said for examplemaybe my partner wants to
go back to school and getsome further education
or training that kind of thingAnd what that means
(13:57):
is that's morecosts for the family
or that might beall kinds of things
That might mean that my partnercan't work as much
to earn money or whateverand maybe me as a partner would
or the partner would sayWell I'd like you to do that too
How can we figure that out?
(14:19):
And the third want iswhat would be
wants for our relationship?
What what would help forboth this a relationship?
So you're thinking in termsof all of those aspects of it
That becomes a way to negotiatehow we can get to some of that
(14:40):
It might take longerto go to school than you know
I had maybe originally thoughtor it might
take some kind of adjustmentsome way But getting all of
those wants out is importantrather than keeping it
part of it hiddenand doing some kind of
underhanded ways to seeif I can get what I would like
(15:04):
And they talk about compromiseWell I'm compromising for you
and I'm compromisingin this situation and
but I'm not getting what I wantor whatever
the situation is And I thinkback to this example
that I gave with our childrenand the homeschooling versus
Christian school situationAnd if all if
(15:24):
the idea was compromised thenone of us would
have said okay willyou just homeschool then?
And like Thomas Curtissaid you just homeschool
then and we'll justwe'll just make it work
And there'd be someresentment there Exactly
There'd be some resentmentSo you all talk
about collaborationand how to have a
(15:46):
collaborative marriageAnd so I would love for you
to talk about the differencebetween compromise
and collaborationin a relationship Lester
With compromise Yeah go aheadYeah Yeah Well compromise
really is a set of tradesI'll do this if you do that
(16:06):
All right?
I give you a gift to get YesAnd I gain something
and I lose somethingYou gain something
and you lose something Andso what that
is is for some peoplethat's the highest level
they can ever get to Butit's fragile Well partly
(16:27):
what makes it fragileis when I think about it
what do I think about whatI got or what I gave up?
Yeah most peoplethat had biological parents
which by the way as everybodythink all kinds of stories
you know about Butwe're all human And you know we
(16:52):
we think about what wegive up in and lose
more than we getAnd that is often
a set up for failure of whateverthe dispute is
or the issue is or whateverthe the problem is
that you're trying to doOn the other hand what the
the other thing about thatsoon is
(17:12):
you said you would do thisand I said I'd do this
It's conditional OkaySo as soon as I see
you not doing what you saidyou would do
that gives me permissionnot to do what I do
Or a little slip up or a slip upYeah Yeah And
so I'm My eyes are on youand not on what I
contribute or how I respondSo that whole mindset
(17:36):
as you say you see it on TVand you see it
in our political worldwhere it can't even get that far
Yeah you knowit compromises this
the highest order you get tobut it's in many cases
seen as a bad word nowSo how do you transcend
compromise to a what really iscalled collaboration?
(17:58):
Okay And collaborationis really working
together effectivelyto make a decision
or resolve a conflictAnd I think really
it requires both some skilland some goodwill
both of those kinds of thingsYeah When when that's not
(18:20):
there is an underlyingthat I care about you
and I care about methen all the kind of
spiteful kind of communicationthe argument
the fight as opposed toa focus by the way
we've developed kind ofI don't know we've developed it
but we're using a new wordthat my colleague
and I have just written a booktwo workbooks
(18:42):
just on the awareness wheeland we call
What We Talk About asinner action I and e r Actio n
So usingthe wheel is interaction
The skills arereally interaction skills
many of them as wellSo any way based on
(19:06):
collaboration is basedon your wheel And my wheel
that we can both discloseWe draw on my experience
in your experienceand that means that each person
has to put it out thereMy experience in a respectful
kind of way and it's based onwants for my partner myself
(19:30):
and us as a relationshipSo it the skill part
would come in tousing the talking skills that
that are taught in the couplecommunication program
and the listening skillsto bring that together to
work out a decision in the mapsThe maps as you said help
(19:54):
structure that and promptit become kind of a platform
for that But the the issueyou mentioned about schooling
with your kids once you'vereally discovered your
your interest at a deeper leveland fuller level
really broader levelwhat's really important
(20:15):
then it takes youvery naturally to okay now
how do we implement this?
Because you options you knowand with that the spirit behind
it is very different It isAnd I'll do this
if you do that it's okayWe've built an agreement here
What are we going to doand how next steps
how do we create it together?
(20:36):
Yeah Yes And sowe find a solution that
we call a best fit solutionthat takes into account one
another's wants ofboth of us in inner
for the relationshipAnd in your case the
the US can extendmaybe beyond the partner
(20:56):
your father us of our familyRight That's really good
The sacrifice occursIt's an important thing
But sacrifice would be a mutualkind of sacrifice
That's right Yeah And in thatI think with
it comes a longer term viewA lot of time sacrifice is
(21:19):
kind of what I do nowand what I'm upset or unhappy
about what I have to sacrificenow That's
where the US is thinkinglonger term If there's
a US in a relationshipI will sacrifice for it
sometimesSo it's as force and mutual
The other piece is that workoften can happen in sacrifice
(21:43):
is one persondoes the sacrificing
and the other person doesn'tAnd so you get a pattern
that's not healthy And rememberthe coming together going apart
one leads one followsthe other leads when follows
But in sacrifice one leadsand the other one
sacrifice to always followAnd it's never
(22:04):
goes the other wayBut I have to say I think in
our own relationshipI don't see much sacrifice
Occasionally we dobut I think we more figure
things outbased on Phyllis's interests
my interests and how can wemake those both fit
and sacrifice kind of evaporatesBut very often say with
(22:28):
health care or disability orother you know
change in jobs or commutingor you know there are a
lot of external impactsthat that hit us that we look at
sacrifice is how can I transcendjust my interests
at this moment or longer termfor the good of
(22:51):
sometimes for spiritual goodand for relational health?
And and Ithink there's a question of
long term what is betterfor the relationship
long term what is betterfor our family long term
and thinking of more than thejust the now?
Because I thinkwe live in a word world
(23:14):
of immediacyYou know what do I want now?
What?
I don't want togive up something
You know I want it nowAnd sometimes it takes
a longer term viewand perhaps we can see that
having a longer termrelationship more that you know
How long have you been married?
Oh my goodnessForever Over 60 years
(23:39):
We're pushing not 63 No no no 60We're 61 and a half to be exact
So that's that's a long timeBut I tell you we started it
We're still working on tryingto create a collaborative
operating system Is thatthis is a lifetime journey
I wouldn't saya lifetime project
(23:59):
but we're working at it Andbut when we signed on
and he's learned really wellwhen we signed on
rather than a collaborativeoperating system
See I didn't singwhen growing up I mean I didn't
I didn't my folks did a lot ofgood things together
but it wasn't alwaysreal collaborative
(24:20):
It was dad leads mom followskind of situation
So when we got marriedwe had a unilateral
operating system you knowand Phyllis was good follower
for a whileand then things started
changing MemberAlso thinking about money
and how money decisionswere made some way
(24:42):
I was talking withmy folks about it
and I was workingI think teaching
probably school earlyin our marriage together before
I did a work in corporationsBut I said something
to my parents about Wellwell I make money Sharon
makes the decisionson how the money is spent
(25:02):
And my dad saidAnd that's the way
it's supposed to be That's rightI had good backup but
that was her dad to bring itfrom the validation I think
Well my parents I would sayhad a nice relationship
And I think Sharon'sparents did too By the way
(25:24):
He thought I was excuse mebut he thought I was me
and he was tzachi Oh well you'retalking about
a TV show All in the FamilyAnd Archie was the father
in law of type of thing AnywayI forgot what I was going to say
except that you know that'show it was
(25:45):
that we learned as a coupleand we learned
really from the couplecommunication program
that he was developing abouthow to be more collaborative
And I think definitelywe are more collaborative now
and it's important to in my viewit's important at every stage
(26:06):
in a relationship in ain a marriage
particularly in datingWell whether Yeah but in every
stage of the relationshipWell we were
maybe getting our schoolingbefore we had children
And we certainlywith children it's
very importantAnd then when they leave
how we live our lives togetherand just how we get navigate
(26:31):
some of the issues we haveat this point in our lives
whether it's with health careor things like that
So I think at every stagein a couple relationship
and it's importantwhen you asked about sacrifice
and you got more than thatbut sacrifice
I think as Sherrod's saysto sum up
(26:52):
as more of a long term lookYeah Well
the other thing I like aboutis is I'm hearing
when you take that longterm view and you have
healthy conversations aroundwhat it is your interests
are making sacrificeswhere we're at choice
and having consciousconversations and being able
(27:12):
to willingly sayI am willing to lay this down
for the good of our relationshipAnd I feel really good
about that as opposedto being coerced or manipulated
into giving up somethingI think there's
a real differencebetween how one sacrifices
this difference in the worldBy the way Thomas
I wanted to pick upI'm going to borrow from you
(27:34):
I love your phraseSpeaking of the awareness
wheel as a tool to unpacka situation
I've never thought of itin that terms but that's exactly
what that tools for unpackingwhat's going on inside of me
stopping to reflect it and thentrying to put the parts together
(27:54):
concurrentlyso that I live can grow
I think over the years for usin our own relationship
we've had all the challengesthat everybody else has had
And the part of it is maybe notall of them not all we've had
We missed one Wellwe haven't had
all of them And I know thatalthough
(28:15):
there are more to come worknow I'm nervous anyway
that it's going to setover our lives Over our lives?
Oh yeah Trying to livecan grow really
with our faith with ourwhat we teach with the skills
(28:37):
that and that's partlythat our relationships
keep being trying to liveconcurrently in the community
and with our people isthat's a high value
I guess I'd say Thank youfor listening to Seeds
for your marriage with hostsKrista and Thomas Walker
We pray this episode has givenyou tips and tools
(28:57):
and how to thrivein your marriage
Be sure to subscribeto this podcast
and follow us on Facebookand Instagram
at Tricia and ThomasWe want to hear from you
Be sure to leave a reviewand let us know how we're doing
It's our desirethat this podcast
completely benefits youSo also let us know future
marriage topics that youwould like to hear about
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