July 7, 2025 • 69 mins
Have you ever wondered what it takes to move from the pulpit to publishing—or how faith can inspire the craft of writing? In this episode of Seek Go Create, host Tim Winders sits down with Will Parker Anderson, senior editor, pastor, and founder of the Writer Circle, to unpack the mysteries of calling, creativity, and the journey from ministry to editing bestselling Christian books. Will shares honest insights on embracing God’s will through career transitions, the audacity and humility required to write for an audience, and how storytelling can become a powerful tool for impact. If you’re an aspiring writer, a creative leader, or simply curious about finding purpose in unexpected places, this conversation is for you.
"A book cannot create a love for writing, but a love for writing can create a book." - Will Parker Anderson
Access all show and episode resources HERE
About Our Guest:
Will Parker Anderson is a senior editor at Waterbrook and Multnomah, imprints of Penguin Random House, where he has played a key role in shaping impactful, Christ-centered books. With over a decade of experience as a pastor in various leadership roles, Will brings a unique blend of spiritual insight, editorial expertise, and a passion for storytelling. He is also the founder of the Writer Circle, a thriving community and podcast that equips nonfiction writers to develop their craft and publish with purpose. Will’s extensive background in ministry, publishing, and coaching makes him a trusted guide for authors seeking to tell meaningful stories that resonate and inspire.
Reasons to Listen:
- Discover how Will Parker Anderson made the leap from full-time pastor to senior book editor at a major Christian publishing house, and the surprising insights he gained about calling and vocation.
- Get an inside look at how successful nonfiction books are crafted—including what makes writing truly resonate and the delicate balance editors strike between confidence, humility, and storytelling.
- Hear candid thoughts on faith and creativity in the age of AI, as Will unpacks the ethical and practical dilemmas writers face with new technology—and what that means for aspiring Christian authors today.
Episode Resources & Action Steps:
Absolutely! Here are the resources mentioned and action steps you can take based on this episode with Will Parker Anderson on Seek Go Create:
Resources Mentioned:
- Writer Circle (Newsletter & Podcast): Will’s newsletter and podcast are designed to equip and inspire nonfiction writers, providing tips and insights about writing and publishing. – Writer Circle Website
- “Adorning the Dark” by Andrew Peterson: Will references Andrew Peterson’s book which explores faith, creativity, and the audacity required to create for others.
- The Chosen (TV Series) Curriculum: Will shared about creating Gen Z curriculum for "The Chosen", the popular TV series about the life of Jesus.
Action Steps for Listeners:
- Subscribe to Writer Circle: If you’re an aspiring or current writer, sign up for Will Parker Anderson’s weekly writing tips newsletter at Writer Circle and consider tuning in to his podcast for behind-the-scenes looks at publishing and craft.
- Build Your Writing “Muscle” with Short Form: Before tackling a book, challenge yourself to write a few short-form pieces (like articles or blog posts/newsletters) and share them with friends for feedback. This practice will help you...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
there is a certain level of audacityyou have to have because to be a
(00:03):
writer, you're not just saying,I'm, I'm processing my thoughts.
this is cathartic, This is, for me.
No, as a writer you're sayingthis is for other people.
This is, uh, for the pub,for public consumption.
And there is a level of audacity there.
But I think along with Audacityis the humility not to take
(00:24):
yourself too seriously.
So you need the boldness to put yourwords out there, and then you need
the humility for some people to belike, I hate that, uh, that sucks.
(00:44):
What do a book editor, a pastor, anda writing coach all have in common?
In today's episode, we'rejoined by Will Parker Anderson,
a man who embodies all three.
As a senior editor at WaterBrookand Mult, no and Imprint, A Penguin
Random House will has helped shapepowerful Christ Center messages
into books that reach and inspire.
(01:05):
He's also the founder of the WriterCircle, a growing community and podcast
that equips nonfiction writers tosharpen their craft and publish with
purpose, with a passion for the gospeland a deep understanding of story
will walks alongside authors to ensuretheir words glorify Christ, connect
meaningful meaningfully with readers.
(01:27):
conversation, we explore his uniqueleadership journey, one that spans
publishing, pastoring, and platformbuilding and the wisdom he's
gained helping others tell their
story.
Well, will welcome
to Seek, go
create.
Thanks, Tim.
Great to be here.
Excited to talk with you.
Excited, excited
(01:47):
that you're here too, man.
I'm really excited about this.
I've cranked out a number of
episodes this
week, kind of batching
Yeah.
you are kinda like
my exclamation point.
Oh, I'm honored.
this, we're recording this on a,we're we're, we're recording this
on a Friday and this is kinda sortof for the listener, but it's a
little bit for me personally on some
stuff I'm working on.
So,
Perfect.
we're gonna have fun.
(02:07):
Will, before we get intothat though, uh, would you
rather
answer the what do you do,
you know, kind of
typical networking thing
or who are you pick it and
just start
answering.
Yeah.
Love that question.
It's a tough one too.
So I actually transitioned frombeing a full-time pastor for over
(02:29):
10 years to being a book editor.
And that transition brought this questionto the fore in my life because suddenly
what I had been doing pastoring and whatI thought I would do forever shifted.
And so I'm gonna go with, in this season,uh, who I am is probably more important,
and I would answer that a number of ways.
(02:52):
I am, uh, a son of God.
I am a father, a husband, uh, acreative, you know, a, a, a writer.
And yes, some of those thingsinvolve what I do from day to day,
but those are simple identities.
you know, you don't go to, to, yourpoint, networking events and say,
(03:12):
yeah, I'm a, a dad And, a husband.
Um, you, you talk about youraccolades or your resume or whatnot.
And, um, I think God has been pruningme of my attachment to titles a
little bit and in a good way, uh,showing me that who I am is important.
Um, I.
My calling generally to serve others tolove him can be applied in all kinds of
(03:40):
vocations and projects and businesses.
Um, and they they may changethrough the years, but what won't
change is my status in his eyes.
And so that's how I'd answer.
Very
good.
All right, so this is the, uh,I'm just gonna go ahead and go
big with like
my follow up question.
Yeah.
Do you, do you believe that atthis time you are walking in steps
(04:05):
that God created you to walk in?
Or are you moving towardsthat, or are you transitioning?
I, mean, there's a lot ofwords we could use here.
What,
which, which resonates morewith you when I, when I
mention that?
Yeah.
I believe
that God's will is more mysterious than wewould like to imagine, and sometimes as.
(04:26):
No, no, no.
Will we want simple answers and that's all
we're gonna answer
here on seat.
Go create.
No,
I'm sorry.
I am an editor.
I, I like to complicate people's lives.
That's part of my mo
but God in his wisdom, not onlyknows where we need to be and what
we need to do, but he knows how muchinformation we need or don't need.
(04:48):
And so I think sometimes weplay the God card and we say,
yeah, this is what he has.
And I, and I was saying thatin some seasons of my life, I'm
going to be a church planterand a pastor that is my calling.
And there's almost a, um, an accoladeyou receive when you know your
lane and you always walk in it.
(05:09):
And to some God calls them into somethingearly on and they stick with it for
their whole life, and God bless that.
But for me, it's justbeen much more mysterious.
And so what I like to focus onare the things that are clear.
Um, what God has made plain.
And that is to be as present as I can bewith what's actually in my hands, my, my
(05:34):
relationship with my kids, uh, again, as ahusband, extending beyond that, my church
community, even my city, my neighbors.
Those are the things thatI know that I'm called to.
And I have a ton of fun, vocationally.
I mean, I love what I do.
I love building things.
I love editing, um, you know, goodwriting and meeting interesting
(05:57):
people, but I've just learned that,uh, God knows, you know, where I need
to be in any given season of life.
And editing has been, in retrospect,just a surprising delight.
Like, oh wow.
I didn't see this coming, but now thatI'm here, Lord, I can see your wisdom.
And now that I've walked through some ofthat pain of letting go of some previous
(06:21):
dreams or goals, I'm recognizing like,oh wow, this is far more suited for me
than all those things I thought I wanted.
And now that I'm here, I'm I'mlearning to be increasingly grateful.
So.
I, I do love that response.
And what I'm doing is I'm circlingaround the question that I'm getting
(06:43):
to about your role in full-timeministry and sort of transitioning.
so the follow up I've got is, have youalways had that, what I will call this
is me kind of summarizing what I justheard you say, kind of a peaceful,
relaxed approach to this journey.
I use the jour word journey a lot hereat See, go create this journey you're on.
(07:08):
Or was there a time thatyou were a bit more.
Intense dogmatic.
Uh, I, I could throw a lot of wordsout here about your, I'm doing air
quotes for those, listening in thosewatching on YouTube, your calling.
Um, uh, and, and I wannapreface it with this too.
I, I, I've been around church worldfor a while, but I'm a business guy,
(07:31):
so I was
saved in business
and so church has
always been a little bit, I kindof poke fun at it, truthfully.
I'm sorry,
Oh, you're in good company.
often.
Um, but I also spent a couple yearsat a bible school and this whole thing
around calling, and I was calledat the age of three to whatever,
Yeah.
Anyway, will always been thatrelaxed that I just heard you say, or
(07:57):
was there a time where youwere like, man, this is where
I'm headed.
I would describe myself as afool in the hands of a wise God.
So yeah, when I look at the bigmilestones life, the, the full weight
of decisions didn't really land on me.
that that could be just part of mytemperament bit more laid back in
(08:18):
intuitive and how I move through theworld, the versus planned, you know,
type A. But from choosing the college Iattended, which required moving states to
marrying my wife to different, uh, citieswe've lived in to jobs I've taken to, um.
I just, of course there's moments ofstress, moments of wondering, okay, Lord,
(08:42):
how are you gonna come through here?
Or, which direction should we go?
But the overarching theme of mylife has been really just a a
willingness to allow God's spiritto blow us in whatever direction.
And that doesn't mean we don't have goalsand and thoughtful discernment, uh,
getting welcoming the opinions of men,mentors and thinking through things.
(09:04):
But ultimately what's happened inthe pattern I've noticed is whenever
something just clicks in is effortlessor in a door opens, not every time, but
most of the time, that's an indication.
And a, a lot of times everyother door will just close and
then this one door will open.
And, um, whereas I was beating myhead against the wall trying to make
(09:27):
something else happen, then somethingI didn't even see coming, you know.
Pops up and God blesses it.
I've learned to just trust that.
I have enough reps now, uh, ofseeing God's faithfulness that
I, I've learned to recognize it.
And of course, he's notbound to any pattern.
He can act in our life however he wants.
(09:48):
But, uh, I think in his kindness,he gives us some nudges.
Like, remember when I didthat And that, and that before
while I'm doing that again?
And so you can pry your hands offthe, the controls and just trust and
fully lean into this opportunity.
And, uh, I would say that's howI've approached most decisions.
(10:10):
And a quick side story, I used to teachhigh school seniors theology, and they
would get so anxious about their college.
choice in the next season.
And I would just tell them thestory of how I chose my college.
I was like, guys, I applied to a bunchof colleges, got accepted to some of 'em.
Didn't make a decision, didn'teven really think much about it.
(10:30):
Then my parents sat me down one day andsaid, will, you've gotta make a choice.
So pick a college.
So I just picked one and I pickedone in California because I, I
thought it'd be fun to live there.
That was as shallow as my decision makingwas, and yet God has done extensive
work in my life in the last 20 plusyears here in the state of California.
(10:55):
The, the friends I've met, Imet my wife here, on and on.
Uh, the ministries I've been a partof, he knew when I was clueless.
So I hope that would bean encouragement to people
I, I think it is.
And one thing I heard you, sayearlier, I think I wrote down,
you know, allow God decisions.
But I mean, I just wasthinking You you really.
(11:15):
Or allowing God to
be God
Hmm.
us saying we're not God.
You know, o one of the things I
recognize is I have a highdegree need for control.
Yeah.
of people do.
They want to
control their
situation, their lives,
Yeah,
probably their spouse, their children,uh, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.
And I think part of
the journey of people that are like that,and I think there are many people like
(11:38):
that in first
world cultures,
yeah.
is being bent, broken, whatever youwanna call it, to realize that we are
not God and that there is a bigger
picture beyond
Hmm.
beyond us.
so somewhere along the way you gotinto ministry and then you have stepped
away from full-time ministry and.
(11:58):
My observation is that a lot of people,once they get into the ministry,
they will often feel as if that is
the pinnacle of what they
Hmm.
be doing for God with God.
You know, kingdom of God, churchworld, whatever you wanna call
I'm always fascinated by when
people transition away from, and I, I
(12:18):
don't think
people are out of ministry,
Yeah,
but what, how a lot of people definefull-time ministry Tell me more about
Maybe you could give a little bitof the background of your full-time
ministry experience and then maybe
stepping away
from it.
absolutely.
Yeah.
So I, I was a pastor in various contextsfor, you know, 10, 12 years, somewhere
(12:40):
in there and did all kinds of things.
I was a youth pastor, was, uh, localoutreach pastor, uh, an associate pastor.
I, I helped plant two different churcheshere in Orange County and loved it.
Went through seminary and.
You know, some people have a dryseminary experience where they
(13:01):
feel like God becomes a subjectand their faith sort of atrophies.
I had the opposite, thanks to some reallydynamic, raw, authentic type professors
who just sort of broke the mold of whata stiff academic personality should be.
uh, just very open about their ownsin, struggles, their sto, their
past, and there was a real gratitudeand and rawness to their faith.
(13:25):
That was really transformative for me.
And I I missed, those days, honestly.
Uh, I there was a season where I wouldjust tear up any time, uh, worship began
in, in church, 'cause the words and andthe person of Jesus had landed on me
and I was a lifelong Christian, right?
I'm like 23, 24, 25, and justhaving this incredible experience.
(13:49):
So I love ministry.
One of the ways that God has,has gifted me, I think, is
to teach and to communicate.
And I, and I always love openingthe scriptures, being in a room of
people and getting to share, um,you know, uh, make things clear.
Um, just get people asking good questions.
(14:11):
And that's what I reallymiss about ministry.
That, and I think sitting withpeople, I don't get to do that as
much in the same way as pastoring.
But the transition happened.
So I, for four years was on staff at achurch here in, uh, Santa Ana, California.
(14:31):
We planted in 20.
20, so right in the middle of,uh, the pandemic and everything.
and um, I, I was a church planningresident there And ended up becoming
essentially an associate pastor.
And as the residency was winding down,I came to this fork in the road and
I had two opportunities before me.
And this is what I was referringto with doors opening and closing.
(14:54):
Right?
One was a church in Portland thatwas potentially looking for a lead
pastor for one of their congregations.
The other was an editing rulewhere I'm at now at WaterBrook.
And I had been doing alot of freelance writing.
You know, as a church planter,you're not making a lot of money.
So I would be doing a ton ofwriting, uh, work, writing copy
(15:17):
for different organizations.
And uh, I did a project with the chosenthe TV series writing curriculum for them.
And it was sort of aspinoff from the show.
They were trying to write curriculum forGen Z. And so I met another editor there.
Who had just started at WaterBrookand and said, Hey, will, we're
hiring, would you maybe wanna apply?
(15:38):
And so anyways, the church plantingthing in Portland didn't work out.
Uh, they weren't quiteready to bring someone on.
The timing didn't align.
And I had a, a hard deadline of when myresidency ended, so I needed to find work.
And the editing job worked out.
Uh, again, it felt quite effortless.
(15:59):
Uh, I was hired by, uh, someone Ideeply respect, who's just a veteran
in the publishing industry who sawsomething in me and honestly took a risk.
Um, on paper.
I was not the most qualified person.
Um, but I kind of slid in,laterally into this industry that
normally you have to climb up.
(16:20):
and I just.
Recognize, I, I here'show I've described it.
Editing is the job that I waspreparing for, for my whole
life, but I didn't know it.
And so as I've stepped into this, I've,I've realized, man, I am so suited for
this and, and what the job requires.
And that's not boastfulsaying I'm so good at it.
(16:41):
I'm just saying the type of personality,uh, the work environment, um, the
relational aspect, but then being ableto just sit with for hours, like at
a computer, you know, do I enjoy that?
Uh, it's just been very very rewarding.
So that's a little bit of my story.
Is, uh, is it a
(17:02):
ministry
for you?
100%. Yep.
And you know, I, I may bea pastor again someday.
I don't know what God has, but Iwill never leave that role behind.
I want to be careful here becausepeople have different experiences,
some of them painful, and so whenyou talk about leaving ministry,
(17:24):
there are all kinds of motivations.
Um, I personally love the church.
I'm committed to the church in many ways.
I miss, you know, being in the church.
Um, and so I think I always tryto carry some of that with me.
And what I do is highly relational.
So as I talk with authors, I, I'mtaking the most precious thing many of
(17:49):
them have ever created, which is thisbook, this manuscript, and am walking
beside them through the editorialprocess, which can be painful, As you're
cutting some ideas and adding others.
It, it, it's very, uh, delicate work.
In some cases.
I am praying for them, you know,we're exchanging voice memos.
(18:09):
Week in and Week out.
Uh, I'm encouraging them I'm sittingwith them in their marketing meetings
and trying to champion them and, andbe, and bring ideas to the table to
help their book reach more people.
yeah, I, I tr I think it'svery pastoral what I do.
Um, like I just sent an author yesterday.
(18:29):
I had read through his manuscriptfor the first time, made all my
edits, and then I type up sort ofa summary we call a editorial memo.
That's just my high level feedback.
And at the beginning of that, I justcopied and pasted this liturgy called
a Liturgy for receiving Feedback.
And it just talks about how ouridentity is in Christ, how our ideas
(18:55):
and whether they're received orrejected does not define our worth.
And that's just one example of I'malways looking for little opportunities
where I can be more than just an editor.
But where I can be a, a friend insome cases, I can be, um, a pastor
in some cases, and not to blur thethe professional lines there, but the
reality is, again, this is like preciousheart, mind, soul work of these authors.
(19:22):
And I'm not coming in as acold, detached, grammar Nazi.
You know, I'm coming in as someonewho wants to enter into the creative
process with the authors I work withand who's really an advocate for them.
And, um, and what a privilege to getto do some of that supportive work.
(19:46):
Yeah, that's good.
Going back,
you mentioned you
were a youth pastor
Yeah.
at, at least I'm familiarwith those roles.
At
least you made so much money in that you
never
have to think about money again.
Right.
It's,
Yeah.
that's a
high
paying gig, right?
Oh, you know, the, the, thepayment is in pizza and fun events.
But not money.
(20:06):
42 cents an hour whenyou calculate it out or
something like
that.
So,
Absolutely.
I, and I I actually believe thatwhat you're describing is pastoral
discipling,
Yeah.
because I, as a coach, I typicallyhave worked with leaders and leadership
teams, and I don't think I'm.
(20:27):
You know, making more of myselfthan I should be, but I feel as if I
interact
with people.
more in a role of a discipler,
Hmm.
you know, to be able to disciple people.
And, and it's interesting you bring it
up.
I'm actually, I've just starteda role where I'm functioning
as a
COO of a
company
Hmm.
was a client.
(20:48):
And when I talked to the CEO,my good friend, we've known
each other for 30, 30 years.
We actually, when we werecrafting our roles, I
said, you know, it's gonnabe more like you're an
evangelist.
And
I'm the pastor.
in that for-profit.
I mean, it's a
business.
Okay?
Don't get it, don't get me
Yeah.
Wow.
But I, I, I actually believe.
(21:08):
That the marketplace is
the place where most of this occurs.
And, and again,
I, I
think what
we will call the
Hmm.
traditional church think we need toembrace more the, I don't know, the the
ways that they can interact togetherthem out like, like we've done.
That's me.
(21:29):
That's my little
rant on that.
But,
Yeah.
ha.
have you I mean, do youconsider yourself a writer?
Have you written from a young age or howhave you kind of come in to getting your
writing chops?
Yeah, great question.
Yes.
I've always had a love for writing,um, stretching back to kindergarten.
(21:49):
Actually, I, it, it, it's kind offunny to to analyze your, your, uh,
elementary year, you know, writing.
But there is a assignment in kindergartenwhere it was an acrostic poem And,
you know, first letter of, I thinkit was the word ocean or something.
uh, every kid, it was just random.
Each line was just its own thing.
(22:12):
Uh, apparently this iswhat my parents tell me.
My acrostic was all ocean themed.
So I, I wove it all togetherin my tiny five-year-old brain.
And, um, the truth is,Tim, uh, I I love writing.
I, I just know so many.
Fantastic writers that you'retempted to compare yourself, right?
(22:34):
But what I had was an environment thatnurtured my love for telling stories,
for writing, and made me believethat maybe I before I actually was.
And As an now, you know, I, Ipublished mainly articles, um,
across, you know, all kinds ofdifferent organizations, websites.
Uh, I have my own newsletter,but I'll look back on something I
(22:56):
wrote a year ago and I'll think,wow, I could do so much better.
And.
You know, your future version ofyourself is always gonna look back
at the version today and be like,yeah, that, that wasn't that great.
And, uh, I, I, but I love that becauseit shows growth and looking back at,
it's like those tick marks on the doorframe as you measure a kid who's growing
(23:20):
and then, you know, you don't see themgrowing day to day, but you can when
you look back how really have grown.
And I think as a writer, um, that's beenmy mentality, but, uh, for me to sit down
and write and to wrestle through an ideaand to try to get it right and then to
ship it out into the world and to see itsimpact, great or small, to me is one of
(23:43):
the most rewarding things in the world.
And so for me right now.
I mostly do that through Substack in mynewsletter, um, where I have a group of
folks that I am writing too, and they'remostly aspiring writers, but I just,
I love even writing about writing, so,
That's good.
You know, at, at times Ithink there's a fine line.
(24:05):
Maybe it's not that fine.
maybe it's just me between
confidence,
yeah.
arrogance maybe
being
delusional, you know?
Yeah.
you know?
you you up that you may have been givenmore confidence than you really should
have had I, I think I was raised that way.
I wasn't writing, I At a young age,but I was speaking and I, I loved
(24:30):
speaking
and telling stories, which has,I've sort of migrated that.
we're gonna talk about the relationshipbetween being a writer, author,
and storyteller in just a moment.
'cause I wanna, I
wanna really unpack that.
I think, I think they're
related, they're
cousins or siblings,
Yeah.
So, how important is confidence?
And I wanna mention one thing relatedto being in kindergarten, which I'm
(24:52):
guessing is like five, six-ish years old.
Yeah.
We're staying, I showed you right beforewe hit record, I showed you we're in the
alleyway behind
my granddaughters.
Yeah.
there's one, she's five years old, wewere having a conversation at dinner
yesterday And we were talking about someactivities that she, might wanna do soon.
And we brought up, do you wantto do you want to take piano.
(25:12):
lessons?
Do you wanna take violin?
And she, she just boldly infront of the table said, I
already know how to play piano.
And we all kind of looked at each other.
She's five now.
She, there's no one in thefamily that's owned a piano.
She's got a toy piano, but sheboldly proclaimed, she might've
gotten this from me, by the way.
(25:33):
See, I think this isborderline delusional.
I think that's where you step into this.
she basically said,yeah, I could play piano.
We said, well, don't youwant lessons or anything?
And she almost looked at
us like,
why would I need
Yeah, I got this.
I can already play.
How important is confidence when it comesto writing, and how do you have to manage
that as someone who might have the red pen
(25:57):
are critiquing someone's writing?
Yeah, what a tough question.
Um, the word that, that Ilike to use is audacity.
So I got that from Andrew Peterson.
He has a memoir called, it's eitherAdorning the Dark or God of the Garden.
One of those.
But, uh, he, he, I think it's adorningthe Dark 'cause he's talking more
(26:17):
about creatives, those, whetherthey're songwriters, artists, writers,
and there is a certain level ofaudacity you have to have because to
be a writer, you're not just saying,I'm, I'm processing my thoughts.
this is cathartic, This is, for me.
No, as a writer you're sayingthis is for other people.
This is, uh, for the pub,for public consumption.
(26:40):
And there is a level of audacity there.
But I think along with Audacityis the humility not to take
yourself too seriously.
So you need the boldness to put yourwords out there, and then you need
the humility for some people to belike, I hate that, uh, that sucks.
I disagree.
And to not have it crush youridentity or sense of self-worth.
(27:02):
Um, but confidence is a tricky word forme because what I've discovered, even
with writers who mentioning their names,people would think, oh, they've arrived.
They've written bestselling books beingon the inside of publishing, what I see is
that imposter syndrome infects everyone.
No one's immune to it.
(27:24):
Everyone feels like they're the jokesterin the room, that somehow they snuck in.
And at any moment, someone's gonnatap them on the shoulder and call
them out like you don't belong.
And I'm talking people whoon paper are successful.
You know, um, I edit.
A lot of books by well-knownauthors, and a lot of times
I'll, I'll think, man, okay.
(27:46):
Writing, you know what I mean?
And that's very common inthe publishing industry.
And so, but what they have is audacity.
They have that sense of, I, I,first of all, it's a burning within,
like, I, I gotta get this out.
You gotta have that fire and that urgency.
But then you have to have the audacity tosay, and I'm actually going to act on it.
(28:08):
I'm gonna plant this flag in theground, in the form of the written word.
I'm gonna practice in You know, I, I wasprocessing with a good friend of mine,
he's published, uh, I think five books,but his first one is when he was like
25 and it made a little bit of a splash.
(28:29):
You know, he was interviewed by NPRand LA Times and a couple others.
And, um.
Then the book just got rippedapart by one or two leaders that he
deeply respected and it just stung.
So I was talking with him at leasta decade later and I was like,
(28:49):
so looking back on that book,how do you feel about it now?
You know, do you stand by your words?
And he is like, I do.
But yeah, there's a lot ofthings I would say differently.
Um, but what's freeing, I think,for writers is, yeah, he would say
things differently now in some cases,but he doesn't regret the book.
He has learned the pain ofbeing criticized by some of his
(29:14):
heroes, and he's still okay.
And his books have gottenbetter and better and better.
And because I have access to thesedatabases, I can tell you that his
last book sold more than any ofhis other books and I would say is
the best book he's ever written.
So, yeah.
Audacity does not mean youthink you're always right.
It means you're willing to takerisks and put it on the line.
(29:38):
And, uh, to me, few things are as sadas when there's a capable writer who
is so afraid or, or their humilityis, has grown into insecurity.
It's, it's been taken too far.
And, uh, I'm thinking of one friendin particular who often says, I
think it's irresponsible for meto put my words out there to that
(30:00):
many people because who am I?
I'm like, well, dude, yes, but letme tell you, there's thousands of
people much less qualified thanyou who are already doing that.
And so I, part of me wonders if what'sunderneath that is a fear of looking
stupid, is a fear of, um, and I, I'mnot questioning his authenticity.
I I know he really does.
(30:22):
Feel responsible forthe impact of his words.
But anyways, yeah, I thinkaudacity and humility are the,
the paradox of a writer's mindset.
Yeah.
And, and you know, there's aword ego that popped into my
mind
that I believe you probablyhave to, uh, you, you have to.
Uh, I guess we could use that word,while, while also pastoring and nurturing
(30:47):
someone's soul while you're doing it.
And I you know, I recognized it.
I, I put 70,000 words in a novel,and I would, no one would ever
say that, Tim, you know, he isjust a, the model of humility.
No, they would possibly usesome other words to describe
me, but I'll tell you will.
(31:09):
I mean, we self-published, but I,I was like going, I wasn't sure I
wanted to push upload Amazon andall because was a bit different.
It was a novel.
It was, there was a littlebit of self-reflection in it.
I had never put a lot of words out, eventhough I'd been writing most of my life.
(31:30):
uh, it was a little bit of a shaky start.
I I don't,
I
don't think I was excitedabout possible criticism.
Maybe that
was what it was.
Yeah.
Um.
Which is interesting, but, youknow, I I think about personal
preference and I wonder how thatintegrates into what you do.
I man, I just thought about thisbook series and it was, most of
(31:51):
this audience would probably agreethat the 50 Shades of Gray books
were trash as far as their content.
But even worse, to me it was
just
bad writing.
I, I, I had someone around me that saidthey read a portion of it and, you know,
I think it was El James or something,made a boatload of money, did well and
(32:11):
all that kinda stuff to, truthfully,it was almost porn if you ask me.
the writing was
horrible, you know, had it
Yeah.
good writing, I wanna say, okay,the content's not my thing and
all that, but it, it was horrible.
So does personal preferenceand just liking versus not
liking certain things enter into
(32:32):
your role?
Yeah.
Uh, are you asking sort ofhow I evaluate writing or,
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you mentioned in the,uh, earlier you said this just, this
is good writing, or this writing
may not be
good.
yeah.
how do you know maybe the best way of
asking how do you know ifwriting is good or not?
(32:54):
Then this might be me personally
asking.
Yeah, yeah, great question.
And I should qualify.
I'm a nonfiction editor, so I,I can really speak primarily
to, you know, that genre.
'cause fiction writers to me, I just amfilled with envy, uh, how gifted they are.
Um, I mean, to, to tell a story and, andthat being all that your book is, it a
(33:17):
story from start to finish gotta knowwhat you're doing with pacing and dialogue
and the, the way you describe things.
Um, but yeah, in the nonfictionworld, what makes good writing,
there's no way around thesubjectivity of it to be fair, right?
So some people are gonna love onetype of author and they're not
gonna like another, and the nextperson is gonna feel differently.
(33:41):
They might feel the reverse, but ingeneral, um, I think writing that
resonates, uh, addresses a need.
Something that readerscan readily identify.
It, it names an ache that they feel,and in the best cases, it names an
(34:02):
ache that they feel but haven't beenable to articulate for themselves.
So good writing provides the gift ofour articulating the, the groans of our
soul, whether it's the fear we feel,the hopes that we have, the dreams that
we have, the problems we're facing.
And a mistake I think a lot of writersmake is their writing is too them focused.
(34:27):
Um, they're they're writing forthemselves, not for the readers.
And so as an editorial team, we havedifferent ways that we will coach writers,
like different comments that we'll make.
Here's a few of em.
We'll say something like, this is agreat place to turn to the reader.
In other words.
Go and ask the reader a question orencourage them to think about something.
(34:51):
or if you've just taught someprinciple or truth show, give
them a, uh, buffet of ways thatthis could work out in their life.
Get their juices flowing,that kind of a thing.
So, turn to the reader, but myfavorite one is look the reader
in the eye because it's concrete.
It's like you're sitting at coffee andthere's someone across from you And
(35:14):
you know those moments in conversationswhere sometimes you're distracted,
you're stirring your coffee, maybeyou're glancing over at the awkward first
date, sitting next to you, you know?
But then you have moments whereyou're just making direct eye contact.
You're, you're locked in and you're,you're connecting with the person
that you're communicating with.
And good writing taps into that, eventhough it's on the page, not in person.
(35:39):
it's quite possible to do that.
So that's one thing.
What else makes for good writing?
I would say, um, clarityand and pacing are huge.
And so a lot of what I helpwriters do is really boil down
what they're trying to say.
Uh, a good story at the wrongtime makes it a bad story.
(36:03):
So a lot of times I'll bereading through a manuscript
and I'm like, this is hilarious.
I love this story, but it doesn't fit.
Or, wow, this is aheartbreaking narrative.
Um, I think actually youspent too much time here.
I think you went into somedetails that are gonna burden
readers rather than help them.
(36:24):
Um, and not saying writers shouldairbrush or minimize their pain, but
when we get writing, sometimes weget extra cathartic and uh, we start,
it's like a therapy session for us.
And again, the minute you decidethat you wanna share your words with
others, that the writing is for them.
What that means is you have to putthem first and you have to be a
(36:46):
ruthless eliminator and editor ofyour own life and sprinkle them in
as seasoning, But not the main course.
Uh, the exceptions of course,would be a memoir where
that's, that's the whole deal.
But those are extremely hard tosell, even harder to write Well,
and um, I think a lot of writersintuitively turn to to memoir when
(37:09):
they're trying to write something.
'cause it's like, oh,I'll just write my story.
Um, but actually what most nonfictionbooks should be, I think, is, uh,
books that are teaching you something,solving a problem, that kind of a thing.
They're, they're instructive in some way.
So, um, I could go on and on, but,but those are, those are a few things.
(37:29):
And I mentioned pacing, that, thattaps into the storytelling aspect.
So knowing how long totell a story is part of it.
So is transitioning from the end of thatstory into whatever point you're making.
And you could do that or inductively.
Deductively is when you give thetruth first, and then, uh, you
(37:51):
explain it through the story.
Inductively is where you start withthe story and the climax of the story.
Almost like one of Jesus'sparables is this pithy takeaway,
like the take home point.
Um, so you, you can do it either way,but, and knowing how to do that well
and knowing, okay, what details willengage the reader and keep them clued
(38:13):
in, and then when too many detailsare going to cause them to tune out.
Like those instincts are very whenit comes to writing nonfiction.
Yeah, and it's good.
like that you brought up that there is adifference between fiction and nonfiction.
One of the hardest things Ihad to do, write more what I
call fiction with a purpose.
I'm attempting to teach and get some
(38:36):
points
across.
So it's kinda Like fiction on a
mission or something like that is
Like Pilgrim's
But dialogue,
something like that, you know, dialogue.
I actually hired a coach
to help me with writing
fantastic.
It was like extremely
difficult to do, but
Yeah.
do you see a at all between peoplethat are good uh, oral communicators?
(39:01):
and that they're also goodwritten or is there a disconnect?
The, the reason I bring it up, Iwas in Bible school and there was
a lady that said, you know, Tim,you're a pretty good writer and
all that, would you read my book?
And this was a person that was sortof awkward communicating in general.
And truthfully, the bookwas a little awkward also.
(39:21):
So,
and maybe that
was just an isolated
Hmm.
correlations with people that are,if they're good communicators, it
translates to multiple Written speakingor, or am I trying to make something
of nothing?
I.
Yeah, great question.
I think it would dependon, um, a few things.
So it depends on what you mean by goodoral communicator, because there's
(39:45):
there's different skills involved, right?
So I'm editing a book right now whereI actually think he's a incredible
oral communicator, but one of hisskills is distilling big ideas in
small, catchy, memorable phrases.
Um, and when he submitted hismanuscript, I was like, wow, I'm
(40:08):
seeing that on the page like you have.
You know, I, I told him becauseI was just debriefing with him.
I was like, these phrasesare like souvenirs.
They're things that, because they'reso pithy and so catchy, readers can
take them with them and remember them.
You know, they may not remembereverything you said in the book, but
some of these are gonna stick with them.
(40:28):
That's a communicationgift that this guy has.
Um, but there's often a huge disconnectbetween people who are great on stage, in
person communicators, and then they go towrite a book and it's all over the place.
Because they're intuitive thinkers.
They're not super linear.
(40:48):
They, they, they don't think as muchin terms of structure and order.
They're just really goodat capturing a room.
And you could honestly give themany topic and just be like, go
riff on that and make it engaging.
And they could do it.
Um.
Then you have communicators who aresort of the unicorns who can do both.
(41:09):
It's like they have, um, they havethis magnetic quality about them.
They have an ability to read a roomand to win people over effortlessly
in short, you know, in minutes.
And they know how to structure.
they know how to build a talkto sort of a climactic point.
(41:30):
Um, they know how to, as wewere saying, really look people
in the eye and engage them.
So it's not just about here's the truthand the information, but there's a
real presence about them and, and theycan see their audience really well.
Um, yeah, those folks, they can pullit off, but often we have to sort
(41:52):
of, teach some new skills to publicspeakers as they come to a book.
the question is, do you, write.
The way you talk, andshould You yes and no.
Um, certainly you wantit to be accessible.
You want it to be relatable.
You don't wanna sound stiff andawkward on the page, but it's
not exactly the same thing.
(42:12):
Um, words flow in a page differently.
I think the way that you handle a30 minute talk into an auditorium
is different than the way youwrite a chapter in a book.
And, um, you know, with a book, uh,I've, I've heard this comparison from
a mentor of mine who's a great, uh,speaker, communicator, and a thoughtful
(42:34):
writer, but he just said the differencebetween a book and a talk is that in
a talk, people are stuck there for 30minutes and you've got 'em with a book.
The goal is just get 'em to turn one morepage, one more page, one more page, and
it's, it's a game that you have to play.
It's a skill you have to cultivate.
(42:56):
And so.
I would say maybe just to synthesize,it's like in a book, the demand
or the the urgency to really hookreaders and keep them with you
because they have many other options.
They can close the book, they can checktheir phone, they can turn on Netflix.
Um, they have to choose to read you.
(43:16):
you've gotta learn the art of, ofkeeping 'em with you and, uh, them in
really authentic ways and remindingthem, Hey, this is for you and, um,
you're gonna get something out of this.
So, um, yeah, those are a few thoughts.
That was really good.
And I actually, as you were youmentioned that rare unicorn that can
(43:37):
speak and
Yeah.
had this epiphany of where mygranddaughter got the idea that
she could play the piano when she's
never really sat before.
cause, cause I had this flash go throughmy mind going, oh Tim, you're the unicorn.
You could do both.
That was my thought,
Yeah.
then I thought, well,that's pretty delusional.
(43:57):
That's, I'm trying to be
self-aware at the same time.
I'm being delusional.
I'm like going,
no, you're not.
That's not
the case.
But,
Yeah.
uh, anyway, that is, thatis, that's really good.
And I'm, I'm glad I asked that question.
I wanna follow it up with somethingthat kind of nags at me at times.
And I don't know where I fit into it.
I think I'm
stepping
into it a little bit more.
(44:18):
Hmm.
what, how do you define the differencebetween someone who's a writer, just
love putting words on paper, digital orwhatever, an author, someone who just
loves cranking out books, and then maybe astoryteller that might have some of both.
And I might even be missing some terms,but I see those used interchangeably in
(44:41):
this
industry and at times I wonder where
I. Fit.
So what, and say whateveryou want to about those.
'cause I'm guessing yousee some of all of those
Yeah, that's a fascinating distinction.
And so as, uh, my friend Andy Crouchsays, you know, I have ideas, but
maybe not many thoughts, you know,well-formed, um, to me an author, there's
(45:07):
an undertone there of, it's a career.
Um, and it's somethingyou do vocationally.
Um, it doesn't have to be your soleincome, but you know, maybe every
couple years you're, you're puttingout a book or something like that.
Um, writer is a term.
I think you even said, Tim, maybe beforewe hit record, like I've written and
(45:29):
I have all these ideas, but I don'tknow that I'd call myself a writer.
And I would actually push back onthat a little bit because what is
the standard of being a writer?
Do you have to be a Flannery O'Connor?
Do you have to be a CS Lewis?
You know, um, of course not.
Um.
When we think of writing andbeing a writer, I encourage people
(45:51):
to give themselves permission.
You'll never be a writer bysaying You're not a writer.
Um, like my 5-year-old self inkindergarten writing an acrostic
poem, you gotta believe it.
Um, even before it's maybe true or,or maybe a better way of saying it
is, becomes more true the more youdo it and the more you, um, dignify
(46:16):
what you're doing by allowingyourself to say, I am a writer.
Uh, writers like any other art form.
Um, we're all in different stages.
And if I compared myself to someof my good writer buddies, I
would feel inadequate every time.
But I do call myself a writer,um, And I encourage people to,
(46:38):
to think of it in those terms.
And so, and then storyteller,that's an interesting one.
Storytelling is so integral to all typesof writing fiction, nonfiction, you
know, if we're gonna distinguish betweenwriters and authors, I think to be a
writer, you have to be a storyteller.
(46:59):
There's, there's no way around it.
Um, that is the sort of, uh, that'sthe language that we speak in.
That's the quickest way to the heart.
That's the best way to capture attention.
Um, it is, you know, the, the wayto teach a truth in a way that is
(47:19):
enjoyable and engaging and delightful.
And so, yeah.
Are there storytellersthat aren't writers?
Sure, of course.
People choose different mediums, right?
Uh, you have some who they lovepodcasting, telling stories that
way, or, um, telling storiesthrough film or songwriting.
(47:42):
I think just the good old fashionedcircling up and telling stories.
I actually, my friendgroup in college did this.
we we had storytelling nights uh,sometimes there'd be a theme and we would
just gather and we we tried to bring ourbest work and tell stories to one another.
Uh, I I love that.
But yeah, I think as a storytellingis part of the bread and
(48:06):
butter of what we're doing.
Uh, the reason it sortof resonates with me,
is I find myself
working on a
lot of stories.
Yeah.
I, do have not.
Nonfiction, things that I'm workingon, some things I wanna get across,
but what I will often find is I'mlooking for a fictional way to bring
the
(48:26):
point across of what I'm also working on
in the nonfiction space,
Yeah.
leads me to believe, it'slike, maybe I'm just wired.
Maybe that's what God called me to do,to go back to our earlier conversation.
Yeah.
But, uh, and I, and I do enjoy that,which then this actually brings
up my, it's not a trick question, but
(48:47):
boy, it's
one that's front and center.
Mm.
Is AI cheating?
is AI messing up the world thatwe're in, or is it enhancing it
and flushing out a lot of things?
I could argue both ways, and I couldtell you that I'm knee deep or maybe
neck deep into AI with doing a lotof things with my work and all that.
(49:11):
And I'm doing some with mywriting, so be be gentle
if you're gonna tell meI'm cheating on that.
But is it, is it
cheating?
It's funny.
I was on a a podcast earlier this morningand the same question was asked, I am
what I would call AI agnostic or AIcautious, and I've heard arguments.
Even this week I waslistening to a couple debates.
(49:34):
Um, between people, uh, I think it wasthe the New York Times was predicting
some almost catastrophes that AIis going to unleash on the world.
and these are not conspiracy theory folks.
These are, you know, reasonable,very intelligent people
talking about these things.
(49:54):
But I think, so first of all, thosethat are AI cautious, there's no
avoiding AI in, in the world at large.
Um, it's so competitive.
Companies basically have thechoice between incorporating
AI are being left behind andmaybe even going outta business.
I don't know.
Uh, so I just heard Logoff software.
(50:17):
They have a new AI search feature,you know, so we're talking
even ministry aimed companies.
Everyone's doing it.
Um, I don't think the, in our world,you can, you'll be able to avoid it
if you use an app or if you searchsomething, um, it's just gonna be coded
in and you may not even realize it.
So, uh, we don't have necessarily totalautonomy and choice in every area, but
(50:44):
when it comes to our creative work and ourwriting, we absolutely do have a choice.
So for me, um, I'm still processing this.
I can speak from the publishing side.
Our authors are not allowed towrite their content using ai.
Um, our contract specifies that they canuse AI to ideate, to come up with ideas.
(51:06):
But if any sentences are createdwith an LLM, they have to be
rewritten in an author's own words.
That's our hard and fast stance.
We want the author's thoughts.
If you think of all of human historyup until, what, three years ago?
AI did not exist.
And look at the beautiful thingsthat humans have created, the
words that they have written.
(51:28):
Um, we, we don't wanna disrupt that.
Um, the hard thing is for most of us,AI can write faster and better than
what we could produce on our own.
some say Sweet.
Let's do it.
That sounds great.
the problem with that is, and with anypiece of technology, uh, when you start
(51:48):
to give yourself those shortcuts, yourcritical thinking starts to atrophy.
Um, it's in the pain and the toil andthe, and the frustration and the dead ends
of the creative process where you gottago for a walk or you have to sleep on an
idea, or you have to let things marinate.
(52:08):
That's what's at stake.
Um, those beautiful sentences and ideasthat are the overflow of that pain.
And that inconvenience.
And so AI is like microwaving ideas.
you you can pop 'em out quicklyand they're warm and they're,
(52:29):
they're ready to eat and serve up.
But, uh, there, there will be someof us, and this is where I'd put
myself, that I, I try to, I'm tryingto protect my capacity for creativity.
Understanding that the more Itake the shortcut, the more when
I hit a roadblock, I'm gonna turnto it again and again and again.
(52:51):
And I'm gonna slowly erode my capacity fordeep thinking and for creative patience
for creative tenacity and resilience.
And, um, I, I neverwant to be that person.
So, uh, I do use in a, in afew ways, um, even in my job.
I'm still evaluatingwhether I want to and, um.
(53:14):
Yeah.
When it comes to writing,I don't use it at all.
Um, I, I stay away from it,so that's my personal stance.
I, I, I've used it.
It's a great brainstormingpartner for some things that I
am working on.
I did an
experiment when
the gr
Hmm.
you know,
X came out.
Yeah.
I I had some ideas and I jumped on it.
(53:35):
This kind of my way of testing it.
I had some ideas about somestories that were leading up.
There were fictional stories, but theywere based in scripture, fictional
stories that were leading up to the fallof the, the fall of Jerusalem in 80 70.
And when I started, I went downa rabbit hole and two and a
half hours later, I, I had a
(53:55):
mini novel
Wow.
I, I, I'll be blunt, it was a prettygood story and it and I, and it kind
of messed with me will, because Italked to my wife later and some
others, I said, I'm trying to.
Determine if this was mystory, I feel very confident it
was because I was arguing.
I'm going, no, that's not
(54:16):
what happened.
This is the scripture.
on the, you know, I went throughall this stuff, but yet I
didn't write any of
the words.
Yeah.
it for a writing assistant witha lot of things I do in business.
I've just cranked out job for an entireorganization in no time with some input.
So I, I think it's gonna be oneof the big challenges that we
have to deal with in the near
(54:37):
future now, you deal primarily with
Christians,
Yeah.
that
adds another
Yes.
I, we we had this discussion withthe Christian Podcasters Group and
we were talking about taking podcastand using AI to transcribe and
create some things from the podcast.
And would've thought, I I said
(54:59):
Jesus didn't go to thecross and die for our
sins.
Yeah.
it was like, that'sthe devil and all that.
Any any comments on it
from not just a writing, but from a faith
standpoint?
I.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I I think what I was sayingearlier about our creative capacity,
um, that's something to think deeplyabout, you know, um, because the words
(55:24):
that we use, um, responsible for Andwe're, we're held accountable for.
So there, there's that side of it.
And just wanting to steward our, ourwords well in a way that glorifies
God and does good for others.
I think we need to bepatient with one another.
Um.
Because this is coming so fast and, um,you know, faster arguably than maybe
(55:51):
any other technology in our lifetime.
And I, I don't know, I, I, describemyself as agnostic because I'm
not even sure I can comprehend thefull implications of this question.
Um, I have one colleague who said,AI is not a moral issue anymore
than the internet is an issue.
It's, it's how you use the tool.
It's not the morality of the tool itself.
(56:12):
And I'm like, okay, I can see that.
At the same time, the problemis hasty adoption and mindless
acceptance of something.
Um, and because it's coming sofast, you know, we don't even
have a choice in the matter.
So I just encourage people to be patient,uh, as I've listened to AI debates.
(56:33):
I'll be honest, they just mess me up.
They give me crazy cognitivedissonance and I'm just like, I don't
even know what to think about this.
and so I start with what I doknow and what I feel called to.
And for me that is anything that I'msending out as my writing, I want to know
(56:54):
that I wrote it, um, that I struggled,and I'm actually willing to put out
something that's mediocre comparedto what AI could do if it's mine.
Um, because I want to see mygrowth, as I was saying earlier.
I wanna be able to look back andsee that, um, I want to push my
mind and explore the, the, the fullcapacity that God has given me.
(57:17):
Um, so yeah, as we have theseconversations, I would just say walk
slowly, form conclusions, slowly,listen deeply and with charity and also.
First and foremost, listen to God'sspirit whispering to you and pay attention
(57:39):
to the convictions of your heart.
Um, I, I'm imagining because of howAI's taken over the world to be dogmatic
about this one way or the other, is at acertain point just going to be divisive.
And, you know, it's kind of social media.
I have strong opinions about it, butultimately I I can have good conversations
(58:02):
with others about it, but I have tolet them before God and others make the
decision that they feel right about.
Um, so I hope that's not too diplomaticof an answer, but I, I truly feel
like I'm just immersed in this debateright now and trying to find my way.
I don't think we're gonna beable to get away from it either.
(58:23):
Will, you know, one of thethings I've asked myself,
I've really reflected on some.
I've worked on because my mynovel, I wrote 70,000 words,
these two fingers typed out
every bit of it,
Mm-hmm.
it was excruciating and it was joyful and
it was
challenging and all of those
Yeah.
(58:43):
Um, but then to sit down and in twoand a half hours, and I and I do
wonder if it might be the differencebetween someone who considers
themselves a storyteller versus someonewho puts a lot of words on paper.
And that's something that I'm kind of
wrestling with.
Um, will, we're running up against our
time, but
there's two more questions
Mm-hmm.
got, and the first one is, I know we'vegot some people probably because of the
(59:04):
title and the topic are interested in.
Putting a
book out.
I,
Yeah.
I, fascinating.
I heard years ago that like 87% ofall people think they've got a book
in them, which fascinates me becauseI think this, there's only like 49% of
the people that actually read books.
So that means there's a disconnect between
(59:24):
people that
read and people, anyway, that's,
Yeah,
nother
point.
But, um, what I think people get confusedor they don't understand, and this might
be a short answer for a long topic.
How does the money work with, when wemove into a publishing type situation,
self-publishing, you justwork on it, get it good,
pop it up on
(59:44):
Amazon or whatever,
Yeah.
but how does the money workwithin a publishing world?
And then I'm gonna ask.
you to
people how they can connect with you.
And then I've got onemore exclamation point
question I want
to ask.
Yeah.
That's great.
Yeah.
For someone who doesn't know howpublishing works, um, you really
make money writing in two ways.
Uh, the first is your advance,so that's an amount of money.
(01:00:05):
that a publisher agrees to pay youfor your book, and you get that money.
No matter what.
It's usually paid out in severalinstallments at different stages of
the writing and publishing process.
Um, and then secondly, if your booksells, and that's a big if, 'cause most
books do not earn out their advance,um, then you get royalties as well.
(01:00:26):
So essentially you make the publisherthat money back that they paid you.
Um, if you sell additional copies,then you get a certain percentage
of of sales and the percentageincreases, the more that you sell.
So what's great aboutpublishing for writers?
I. Well first the challenge isit's hard to land a book deal,
(01:00:46):
uh, because as you said, Tim, youknow, so many people want to write.
So it's highly competitive.
But if you do land a book deal, unlikehow the the record industry used
to work, maybe it still does, butwhere a band would sign a deal and
then they would be responsible for,if they didn't make back the money,
they were on the hook to pay it back.
(01:01:07):
That is not how publishing works at all.
The author gets the money, thepublisher takes the hit no matter what.
another aspect of how the money worksinternally is, I, I may have the
percentages a little off, but it'ssomething like 20% of our books pay
for, you know, 80% of our budget.
So most books don't workfinancially speaking.
(01:01:29):
Um, and so when writers get angrywith publishers, like, ah, you know,
they're, they're just about themoney I. We actually lose money on
80% of the authors we take risks on.
And uh, it's the few that float the many.
So, kind of fascinating inside peak there.
Yeah, that's good.
Um, why don't, why don'tyou go and tell people?
(01:01:51):
Like, let's just saysomeone's listening in.
They go, you know what I, I need toconnect with will I, I actually think
your newsletter might be the best spot to
Mm-hmm.
but, um, go ahead and let,this is like promo time.
Tell
everybody where to find you.
I've got one
more comment and a
question then we'll be done.
good.
uh, where do
they go?
Yeah, it's very simple.
It's just writer circle.co.
So writer circle.co.
(01:02:13):
and that's where you cansign up for my newsletter.
Um, and my goal with the newsletter isbecause I, as an editor, I meet so many
writers who are looking for their nextstep, or they want to know how publishing
works and they want to grow as a writer.
And so every Saturday I send outa tip on writing or publishing.
That can be read in five minutesAnd I'm just taking all my learnings
(01:02:34):
from my job, the, the best,you know, practices that I see.
And I just try to pour those into mynewsletter in a really bite-sized way.
And then, uh, I also have a podcastalso called The Writer Circle, where I
interview well-known Christian authors.
I interview other editors like myself,literary agents, like basically
(01:02:56):
giving you a behind the scenes lookat what it it takes to write well
and get published and all of that.
So both of those resourcesare@writercircle.co.
That's great.
We'll include the links downbelow on YouTube and also on the
podcast so people can connect.
Will I know you specificallywork with Christians?
We didn't really,
(01:03:16):
we talked a good
bit about it, faith, but
Yeah.
like, you know, just 20, 20, 30 seconds.
quick tip final thing here,quick tip that you've got.
For someone who's listening in, they go,you know what I, I'm a person of faith.
I think I'd like to put a booktogether, or, I think I've got
one or something like that.
Just whatever the HolySpirit puts on your heart.
What's
a quick tip you wanna leave us with
(01:03:37):
before I wrap
this up?
Yeah, thanks Tim.
I would probably say this
before you can run a marathon, you shouldrun a 5K and a book is a huge undertaking.
Not to say that those of you listen aren'tup for that challenge, but my question
would be, have you written an article?
(01:04:00):
Um, have you started a substack Or a blog?
Or a newsletter?
Have you practiced the shortform of what you want to do?
Long form?
Um, a lot of people hit this dead end asthey're trying to write a book and maybe
they even get 20, 30,000 words down, whichis incredible, but then they fizzle out.
And so if you've got a topic thatis burning, you know, inside of
(01:04:23):
your heart and mind, I would say.
Write a couple short pieces andemail that to a close circle of
family and friends and start aconversation and and get some feedback.
And that's going to build a number ofmuscles, not just your writing muscle
and help you improve in your craft, butit's going to help you get used to that
(01:04:47):
risky feeling of putting your wordsout there, um, to to have your bubble
burst a couple times when people pushback or don't read what you've written.
And what happens sometimes is weromanticize the idea of writing a
book or the, book, this ultimate goalthat we're so, uh, transfixed by.
(01:05:08):
Um, and most people never get therewhen they try to run the marathon,
you know, going from zero to 100.
So yeah, it's, it's about getting some.
Littler wins under your belt and notdespising those little wins, but, but
seeing them as you're training and asa joy, um, a lot of people want a book,
(01:05:31):
but they don't actually like writing andthey haven't quite realized that yet.
writing short form stuff, I'm talkinga thousand words or less, um, that's
going to help you discover, um, if youactually love it enough to keep doing it.
And so a book cannot create alove for writing, but a love
(01:05:51):
for writing can create a book.
Mm-hmm.
That is so good.
Will Parker Anderson, man,I enjoyed this conversation.
I knew that I would.
I, uh, um, make sure you gocheck out writer circle.io.
I've got it pulled uphere, on my computer.
And one of the funny thing beforeI before I close this out here, I
actually will take someone's bioand use AI to get some questions.
(01:06:16):
I rarely get to them, but therewas one that, there was one that I
was looking at here that I wantedto, I'm just gonna mention it.
We're not gonna answer itand we're gonna close out.
This was a question that AI generated.
If Jesus were launching a writingministry today, what do you
imagine his submission letter toa major publisher might look like?
Wow.
(01:06:36):
I'm glad we're signing off so Idon't have to answer that one.
my goodness.
We are done with that.
So Will Parker Anderson,thank you for joining us.
This was, this has beena great conversation.
It has been helpful for me.
I know listeners been helpful for you.
Just learning more about insightsabout the writing industry and what's
going on It's been a real blessing.
I appreciate you Will for sharing with us.
(01:06:58):
We are seek go create.
We've got new episodes here every Monday.
We're on YouTube, growing fast over there,podcast channels, all of those things.
Keep doing all that you're doing becausewe are getting the word out with these
long conversations with great people
like Will.
So
thanks for listening in.
We will
see everyone
next week.
there is a certain level of audacityyou have to have because to be a
(00:03):
writer, you're not just saying,I'm, I'm processing my thoughts.
this is cathartic, This is, for me.
No, as a writer you're sayingthis is for other people.
This is, uh, for the pub,for public consumption.
And there is a level of audacity there.
But I think along with Audacityis the humility not to take
(00:24):
yourself too seriously.
So you need the boldness to put yourwords out there, and then you need
the humility for some people to belike, I hate that, uh, that sucks.
(00:44):
What do a book editor, a pastor, anda writing coach all have in common?
In today's episode, we'rejoined by Will Parker Anderson,
a man who embodies all three.
As a senior editor at WaterBrookand Mult, no and Imprint, A Penguin
Random House will has helped shapepowerful Christ Center messages
into books that reach and inspire.
(01:05):
He's also the founder of the WriterCircle, a growing community and podcast
that equips nonfiction writers tosharpen their craft and publish with
purpose, with a passion for the gospeland a deep understanding of story
will walks alongside authors to ensuretheir words glorify Christ, connect
meaningful meaningfully with readers.
(01:27):
conversation, we explore his uniqueleadership journey, one that spans
publishing, pastoring, and platformbuilding and the wisdom he's
gained helping others tell their
story.
Well, will welcome
to Seek, go
create.
Thanks, Tim.
Great to be here.
Excited to talk with you.
Excited, excited
(01:47):
that you're here too, man.
I'm really excited about this.
I've cranked out a number of
episodes this
week, kind of batching
Yeah.
you are kinda like
my exclamation point.
Oh, I'm honored.
this, we're recording this on a,we're we're, we're recording this
on a Friday and this is kinda sortof for the listener, but it's a
little bit for me personally on some
stuff I'm working on.
So,
Perfect.
we're gonna have fun.
(02:07):
Will, before we get intothat though, uh, would you
rather
answer the what do you do,
you know, kind of
typical networking thing
or who are you pick it and
just start
answering.
Yeah.
Love that question.
It's a tough one too.
So I actually transitioned frombeing a full-time pastor for over
(02:29):
10 years to being a book editor.
And that transition brought this questionto the fore in my life because suddenly
what I had been doing pastoring and whatI thought I would do forever shifted.
And so I'm gonna go with, in this season,uh, who I am is probably more important,
and I would answer that a number of ways.
(02:52):
I am, uh, a son of God.
I am a father, a husband, uh, acreative, you know, a, a, a writer.
And yes, some of those thingsinvolve what I do from day to day,
but those are simple identities.
you know, you don't go to, to, yourpoint, networking events and say,
(03:12):
yeah, I'm a, a dad And, a husband.
Um, you, you talk about youraccolades or your resume or whatnot.
And, um, I think God has been pruningme of my attachment to titles a
little bit and in a good way, uh,showing me that who I am is important.
Um, I.
My calling generally to serve others tolove him can be applied in all kinds of
(03:40):
vocations and projects and businesses.
Um, and they they may changethrough the years, but what won't
change is my status in his eyes.
And so that's how I'd answer.
Very
good.
All right, so this is the, uh,I'm just gonna go ahead and go
big with like
my follow up question.
Yeah.
Do you, do you believe that atthis time you are walking in steps
(04:05):
that God created you to walk in?
Or are you moving towardsthat, or are you transitioning?
I, mean, there's a lot ofwords we could use here.
What,
which, which resonates morewith you when I, when I
mention that?
Yeah.
I believe
that God's will is more mysterious than wewould like to imagine, and sometimes as.
(04:26):
No, no, no.
Will we want simple answers and that's all
we're gonna answer
here on seat.
Go create.
No,
I'm sorry.
I am an editor.
I, I like to complicate people's lives.
That's part of my mo
but God in his wisdom, not onlyknows where we need to be and what
we need to do, but he knows how muchinformation we need or don't need.
(04:48):
And so I think sometimes weplay the God card and we say,
yeah, this is what he has.
And I, and I was saying thatin some seasons of my life, I'm
going to be a church planterand a pastor that is my calling.
And there's almost a, um, an accoladeyou receive when you know your
lane and you always walk in it.
(05:09):
And to some God calls them into somethingearly on and they stick with it for
their whole life, and God bless that.
But for me, it's justbeen much more mysterious.
And so what I like to focus onare the things that are clear.
Um, what God has made plain.
And that is to be as present as I can bewith what's actually in my hands, my, my
(05:34):
relationship with my kids, uh, again, as ahusband, extending beyond that, my church
community, even my city, my neighbors.
Those are the things thatI know that I'm called to.
And I have a ton of fun, vocationally.
I mean, I love what I do.
I love building things.
I love editing, um, you know, goodwriting and meeting interesting
(05:57):
people, but I've just learned that,uh, God knows, you know, where I need
to be in any given season of life.
And editing has been, in retrospect,just a surprising delight.
Like, oh wow.
I didn't see this coming, but now thatI'm here, Lord, I can see your wisdom.
And now that I've walked through some ofthat pain of letting go of some previous
(06:21):
dreams or goals, I'm recognizing like,oh wow, this is far more suited for me
than all those things I thought I wanted.
And now that I'm here, I'm I'mlearning to be increasingly grateful.
So.
I, I do love that response.
And what I'm doing is I'm circlingaround the question that I'm getting
(06:43):
to about your role in full-timeministry and sort of transitioning.
so the follow up I've got is, have youalways had that, what I will call this
is me kind of summarizing what I justheard you say, kind of a peaceful,
relaxed approach to this journey.
I use the jour word journey a lot hereat See, go create this journey you're on.
(07:08):
Or was there a time thatyou were a bit more.
Intense dogmatic.
Uh, I, I could throw a lot of wordsout here about your, I'm doing air
quotes for those, listening in thosewatching on YouTube, your calling.
Um, uh, and, and I wannapreface it with this too.
I, I, I've been around church worldfor a while, but I'm a business guy,
(07:31):
so I was
saved in business
and so church has
always been a little bit, I kindof poke fun at it, truthfully.
I'm sorry,
Oh, you're in good company.
often.
Um, but I also spent a couple yearsat a bible school and this whole thing
around calling, and I was calledat the age of three to whatever,
Yeah.
Anyway, will always been thatrelaxed that I just heard you say, or
(07:57):
was there a time where youwere like, man, this is where
I'm headed.
I would describe myself as afool in the hands of a wise God.
So yeah, when I look at the bigmilestones life, the, the full weight
of decisions didn't really land on me.
that that could be just part of mytemperament bit more laid back in
(08:18):
intuitive and how I move through theworld, the versus planned, you know,
type A. But from choosing the college Iattended, which required moving states to
marrying my wife to different, uh, citieswe've lived in to jobs I've taken to, um.
I just, of course there's moments ofstress, moments of wondering, okay, Lord,
(08:42):
how are you gonna come through here?
Or, which direction should we go?
But the overarching theme of mylife has been really just a a
willingness to allow God's spiritto blow us in whatever direction.
And that doesn't mean we don't have goalsand and thoughtful discernment, uh,
getting welcoming the opinions of men,mentors and thinking through things.
(09:04):
But ultimately what's happened inthe pattern I've noticed is whenever
something just clicks in is effortlessor in a door opens, not every time, but
most of the time, that's an indication.
And a, a lot of times everyother door will just close and
then this one door will open.
And, um, whereas I was beating myhead against the wall trying to make
(09:27):
something else happen, then somethingI didn't even see coming, you know.
Pops up and God blesses it.
I've learned to just trust that.
I have enough reps now, uh, ofseeing God's faithfulness that
I, I've learned to recognize it.
And of course, he's notbound to any pattern.
He can act in our life however he wants.
(09:48):
But, uh, I think in his kindness,he gives us some nudges.
Like, remember when I didthat And that, and that before
while I'm doing that again?
And so you can pry your hands offthe, the controls and just trust and
fully lean into this opportunity.
And, uh, I would say that's howI've approached most decisions.
(10:10):
And a quick side story, I used to teachhigh school seniors theology, and they
would get so anxious about their college.
choice in the next season.
And I would just tell them thestory of how I chose my college.
I was like, guys, I applied to a bunchof colleges, got accepted to some of 'em.
Didn't make a decision, didn'teven really think much about it.
(10:30):
Then my parents sat me down one day andsaid, will, you've gotta make a choice.
So pick a college.
So I just picked one and I pickedone in California because I, I
thought it'd be fun to live there.
That was as shallow as my decision makingwas, and yet God has done extensive
work in my life in the last 20 plusyears here in the state of California.
(10:55):
The, the friends I've met, Imet my wife here, on and on.
Uh, the ministries I've been a partof, he knew when I was clueless.
So I hope that would bean encouragement to people
I, I think it is.
And one thing I heard you, sayearlier, I think I wrote down,
you know, allow God decisions.
But I mean, I just wasthinking You you really.
(11:15):
Or allowing God to
be God
Hmm.
us saying we're not God.
You know, o one of the things I
recognize is I have a highdegree need for control.
Yeah.
of people do.
They want to
control their
situation, their lives,
Yeah,
probably their spouse, their children,uh, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.
And I think part of
the journey of people that are like that,and I think there are many people like
(11:38):
that in first
world cultures,
yeah.
is being bent, broken, whatever youwanna call it, to realize that we are
not God and that there is a bigger
picture beyond
Hmm.
beyond us.
so somewhere along the way you gotinto ministry and then you have stepped
away from full-time ministry and.
(11:58):
My observation is that a lot of people,once they get into the ministry,
they will often feel as if that is
the pinnacle of what they
Hmm.
be doing for God with God.
You know, kingdom of God, churchworld, whatever you wanna call
I'm always fascinated by when
people transition away from, and I, I
(12:18):
don't think
people are out of ministry,
Yeah,
but what, how a lot of people definefull-time ministry Tell me more about
Maybe you could give a little bitof the background of your full-time
ministry experience and then maybe
stepping away
from it.
absolutely.
Yeah.
So I, I was a pastor in various contextsfor, you know, 10, 12 years, somewhere
(12:40):
in there and did all kinds of things.
I was a youth pastor, was, uh, localoutreach pastor, uh, an associate pastor.
I, I helped plant two different churcheshere in Orange County and loved it.
Went through seminary and.
You know, some people have a dryseminary experience where they
(13:01):
feel like God becomes a subjectand their faith sort of atrophies.
I had the opposite, thanks to some reallydynamic, raw, authentic type professors
who just sort of broke the mold of whata stiff academic personality should be.
uh, just very open about their ownsin, struggles, their sto, their
past, and there was a real gratitudeand and rawness to their faith.
(13:25):
That was really transformative for me.
And I I missed, those days, honestly.
Uh, I there was a season where I wouldjust tear up any time, uh, worship began
in, in church, 'cause the words and andthe person of Jesus had landed on me
and I was a lifelong Christian, right?
I'm like 23, 24, 25, and justhaving this incredible experience.
(13:49):
So I love ministry.
One of the ways that God has,has gifted me, I think, is
to teach and to communicate.
And I, and I always love openingthe scriptures, being in a room of
people and getting to share, um,you know, uh, make things clear.
Um, just get people asking good questions.
(14:11):
And that's what I reallymiss about ministry.
That, and I think sitting withpeople, I don't get to do that as
much in the same way as pastoring.
But the transition happened.
So I, for four years was on staff at achurch here in, uh, Santa Ana, California.
(14:31):
We planted in 20.
20, so right in the middle of,uh, the pandemic and everything.
and um, I, I was a church planningresident there And ended up becoming
essentially an associate pastor.
And as the residency was winding down,I came to this fork in the road and
I had two opportunities before me.
And this is what I was referringto with doors opening and closing.
(14:54):
Right?
One was a church in Portland thatwas potentially looking for a lead
pastor for one of their congregations.
The other was an editing rulewhere I'm at now at WaterBrook.
And I had been doing alot of freelance writing.
You know, as a church planter,you're not making a lot of money.
So I would be doing a ton ofwriting, uh, work, writing copy
(15:17):
for different organizations.
And uh, I did a project with the chosenthe TV series writing curriculum for them.
And it was sort of aspinoff from the show.
They were trying to write curriculum forGen Z. And so I met another editor there.
Who had just started at WaterBrookand and said, Hey, will, we're
hiring, would you maybe wanna apply?
(15:38):
And so anyways, the church plantingthing in Portland didn't work out.
Uh, they weren't quiteready to bring someone on.
The timing didn't align.
And I had a, a hard deadline of when myresidency ended, so I needed to find work.
And the editing job worked out.
Uh, again, it felt quite effortless.
(15:59):
Uh, I was hired by, uh, someone Ideeply respect, who's just a veteran
in the publishing industry who sawsomething in me and honestly took a risk.
Um, on paper.
I was not the most qualified person.
Um, but I kind of slid in,laterally into this industry that
normally you have to climb up.
(16:20):
and I just.
Recognize, I, I here'show I've described it.
Editing is the job that I waspreparing for, for my whole
life, but I didn't know it.
And so as I've stepped into this, I've,I've realized, man, I am so suited for
this and, and what the job requires.
And that's not boastfulsaying I'm so good at it.
(16:41):
I'm just saying the type of personality,uh, the work environment, um, the
relational aspect, but then being ableto just sit with for hours, like at
a computer, you know, do I enjoy that?
Uh, it's just been very very rewarding.
So that's a little bit of my story.
Is, uh, is it a
(17:02):
ministry
for you?
100%. Yep.
And you know, I, I may bea pastor again someday.
I don't know what God has, but Iwill never leave that role behind.
I want to be careful here becausepeople have different experiences,
some of them painful, and so whenyou talk about leaving ministry,
(17:24):
there are all kinds of motivations.
Um, I personally love the church.
I'm committed to the church in many ways.
I miss, you know, being in the church.
Um, and so I think I always tryto carry some of that with me.
And what I do is highly relational.
So as I talk with authors, I, I'mtaking the most precious thing many of
(17:49):
them have ever created, which is thisbook, this manuscript, and am walking
beside them through the editorialprocess, which can be painful, As you're
cutting some ideas and adding others.
It, it, it's very, uh, delicate work.
In some cases.
I am praying for them, you know,we're exchanging voice memos.
(18:09):
Week in and Week out.
Uh, I'm encouraging them I'm sittingwith them in their marketing meetings
and trying to champion them and, andbe, and bring ideas to the table to
help their book reach more people.
yeah, I, I tr I think it'svery pastoral what I do.
Um, like I just sent an author yesterday.
(18:29):
I had read through his manuscriptfor the first time, made all my
edits, and then I type up sort ofa summary we call a editorial memo.
That's just my high level feedback.
And at the beginning of that, I justcopied and pasted this liturgy called
a Liturgy for receiving Feedback.
And it just talks about how ouridentity is in Christ, how our ideas
(18:55):
and whether they're received orrejected does not define our worth.
And that's just one example of I'malways looking for little opportunities
where I can be more than just an editor.
But where I can be a, a friend insome cases, I can be, um, a pastor
in some cases, and not to blur thethe professional lines there, but the
reality is, again, this is like preciousheart, mind, soul work of these authors.
(19:22):
And I'm not coming in as acold, detached, grammar Nazi.
You know, I'm coming in as someonewho wants to enter into the creative
process with the authors I work withand who's really an advocate for them.
And, um, and what a privilege to getto do some of that supportive work.
(19:46):
Yeah, that's good.
Going back,
you mentioned you
were a youth pastor
Yeah.
at, at least I'm familiarwith those roles.
At
least you made so much money in that you
never
have to think about money again.
Right.
It's,
Yeah.
that's a
high
paying gig, right?
Oh, you know, the, the, thepayment is in pizza and fun events.
But not money.
(20:06):
42 cents an hour whenyou calculate it out or
something like
that.
So,
Absolutely.
I, and I I actually believe thatwhat you're describing is pastoral
discipling,
Yeah.
because I, as a coach, I typicallyhave worked with leaders and leadership
teams, and I don't think I'm.
(20:27):
You know, making more of myselfthan I should be, but I feel as if I
interact
with people.
more in a role of a discipler,
Hmm.
you know, to be able to disciple people.
And, and it's interesting you bring it
up.
I'm actually, I've just starteda role where I'm functioning
as a
COO of a
company
Hmm.
was a client.
(20:48):
And when I talked to the CEO,my good friend, we've known
each other for 30, 30 years.
We actually, when we werecrafting our roles, I
said, you know, it's gonnabe more like you're an
evangelist.
And
I'm the pastor.
in that for-profit.
I mean, it's a
business.
Okay?
Don't get it, don't get me
Yeah.
Wow.
But I, I, I actually believe.
(21:08):
That the marketplace is
the place where most of this occurs.
And, and again,
I, I
think what
we will call the
Hmm.
traditional church think we need toembrace more the, I don't know, the the
ways that they can interact togetherthem out like, like we've done.
That's me.
(21:29):
That's my little
rant on that.
But,
Yeah.
ha.
have you I mean, do youconsider yourself a writer?
Have you written from a young age or howhave you kind of come in to getting your
writing chops?
Yeah, great question.
Yes.
I've always had a love for writing,um, stretching back to kindergarten.
(21:49):
Actually, I, it, it, it's kind offunny to to analyze your, your, uh,
elementary year, you know, writing.
But there is a assignment in kindergartenwhere it was an acrostic poem And,
you know, first letter of, I thinkit was the word ocean or something.
uh, every kid, it was just random.
Each line was just its own thing.
(22:12):
Uh, apparently this iswhat my parents tell me.
My acrostic was all ocean themed.
So I, I wove it all togetherin my tiny five-year-old brain.
And, um, the truth is,Tim, uh, I I love writing.
I, I just know so many.
Fantastic writers that you'retempted to compare yourself, right?
(22:34):
But what I had was an environment thatnurtured my love for telling stories,
for writing, and made me believethat maybe I before I actually was.
And As an now, you know, I, Ipublished mainly articles, um,
across, you know, all kinds ofdifferent organizations, websites.
Uh, I have my own newsletter,but I'll look back on something I
(22:56):
wrote a year ago and I'll think,wow, I could do so much better.
And.
You know, your future version ofyourself is always gonna look back
at the version today and be like,yeah, that, that wasn't that great.
And, uh, I, I, but I love that becauseit shows growth and looking back at,
it's like those tick marks on the doorframe as you measure a kid who's growing
(23:20):
and then, you know, you don't see themgrowing day to day, but you can when
you look back how really have grown.
And I think as a writer, um, that's beenmy mentality, but, uh, for me to sit down
and write and to wrestle through an ideaand to try to get it right and then to
ship it out into the world and to see itsimpact, great or small, to me is one of
(23:43):
the most rewarding things in the world.
And so for me right now.
I mostly do that through Substack in mynewsletter, um, where I have a group of
folks that I am writing too, and they'remostly aspiring writers, but I just,
I love even writing about writing, so,
That's good.
You know, at, at times Ithink there's a fine line.
(24:05):
Maybe it's not that fine.
maybe it's just me between
confidence,
yeah.
arrogance maybe
being
delusional, you know?
Yeah.
you know?
you you up that you may have been givenmore confidence than you really should
have had I, I think I was raised that way.
I wasn't writing, I At a young age,but I was speaking and I, I loved
(24:30):
speaking
and telling stories, which has,I've sort of migrated that.
we're gonna talk about the relationshipbetween being a writer, author,
and storyteller in just a moment.
'cause I wanna, I
wanna really unpack that.
I think, I think they're
related, they're
cousins or siblings,
Yeah.
So, how important is confidence?
And I wanna mention one thing relatedto being in kindergarten, which I'm
(24:52):
guessing is like five, six-ish years old.
Yeah.
We're staying, I showed you right beforewe hit record, I showed you we're in the
alleyway behind
my granddaughters.
Yeah.
there's one, she's five years old, wewere having a conversation at dinner
yesterday And we were talking about someactivities that she, might wanna do soon.
And we brought up, do you wantto do you want to take piano.
(25:12):
lessons?
Do you wanna take violin?
And she, she just boldly infront of the table said, I
already know how to play piano.
And we all kind of looked at each other.
She's five now.
She, there's no one in thefamily that's owned a piano.
She's got a toy piano, but sheboldly proclaimed, she might've
gotten this from me, by the way.
(25:33):
See, I think this isborderline delusional.
I think that's where you step into this.
she basically said,yeah, I could play piano.
We said, well, don't youwant lessons or anything?
And she almost looked at
us like,
why would I need
Yeah, I got this.
I can already play.
How important is confidence when it comesto writing, and how do you have to manage
that as someone who might have the red pen
(25:57):
are critiquing someone's writing?
Yeah, what a tough question.
Um, the word that, that Ilike to use is audacity.
So I got that from Andrew Peterson.
He has a memoir called, it's eitherAdorning the Dark or God of the Garden.
One of those.
But, uh, he, he, I think it's adorningthe Dark 'cause he's talking more
(26:17):
about creatives, those, whetherthey're songwriters, artists, writers,
and there is a certain level ofaudacity you have to have because to
be a writer, you're not just saying,I'm, I'm processing my thoughts.
this is cathartic, This is, for me.
No, as a writer you're sayingthis is for other people.
This is, uh, for the pub,for public consumption.
(26:40):
And there is a level of audacity there.
But I think along with Audacityis the humility not to take
yourself too seriously.
So you need the boldness to put yourwords out there, and then you need
the humility for some people to belike, I hate that, uh, that sucks.
I disagree.
And to not have it crush youridentity or sense of self-worth.
(27:02):
Um, but confidence is a tricky word forme because what I've discovered, even
with writers who mentioning their names,people would think, oh, they've arrived.
They've written bestselling books beingon the inside of publishing, what I see is
that imposter syndrome infects everyone.
No one's immune to it.
(27:24):
Everyone feels like they're the jokesterin the room, that somehow they snuck in.
And at any moment, someone's gonnatap them on the shoulder and call
them out like you don't belong.
And I'm talking people whoon paper are successful.
You know, um, I edit.
A lot of books by well-knownauthors, and a lot of times
I'll, I'll think, man, okay.
(27:46):
Writing, you know what I mean?
And that's very common inthe publishing industry.
And so, but what they have is audacity.
They have that sense of, I, I,first of all, it's a burning within,
like, I, I gotta get this out.
You gotta have that fire and that urgency.
But then you have to have the audacity tosay, and I'm actually going to act on it.
(28:08):
I'm gonna plant this flag in theground, in the form of the written word.
I'm gonna practice in You know, I, I wasprocessing with a good friend of mine,
he's published, uh, I think five books,but his first one is when he was like
25 and it made a little bit of a splash.
(28:29):
You know, he was interviewed by NPRand LA Times and a couple others.
And, um.
Then the book just got rippedapart by one or two leaders that he
deeply respected and it just stung.
So I was talking with him at leasta decade later and I was like,
(28:49):
so looking back on that book,how do you feel about it now?
You know, do you stand by your words?
And he is like, I do.
But yeah, there's a lot ofthings I would say differently.
Um, but what's freeing, I think,for writers is, yeah, he would say
things differently now in some cases,but he doesn't regret the book.
He has learned the pain ofbeing criticized by some of his
(29:14):
heroes, and he's still okay.
And his books have gottenbetter and better and better.
And because I have access to thesedatabases, I can tell you that his
last book sold more than any ofhis other books and I would say is
the best book he's ever written.
So, yeah.
Audacity does not mean youthink you're always right.
It means you're willing to takerisks and put it on the line.
(29:38):
And, uh, to me, few things are as sadas when there's a capable writer who
is so afraid or, or their humilityis, has grown into insecurity.
It's, it's been taken too far.
And, uh, I'm thinking of one friendin particular who often says, I
think it's irresponsible for meto put my words out there to that
(30:00):
many people because who am I?
I'm like, well, dude, yes, but letme tell you, there's thousands of
people much less qualified thanyou who are already doing that.
And so I, part of me wonders if what'sunderneath that is a fear of looking
stupid, is a fear of, um, and I, I'mnot questioning his authenticity.
I I know he really does.
(30:22):
Feel responsible forthe impact of his words.
But anyways, yeah, I thinkaudacity and humility are the,
the paradox of a writer's mindset.
Yeah.
And, and you know, there's aword ego that popped into my
mind
that I believe you probablyhave to, uh, you, you have to.
Uh, I guess we could use that word,while, while also pastoring and nurturing
(30:47):
someone's soul while you're doing it.
And I you know, I recognized it.
I, I put 70,000 words in a novel,and I would, no one would ever
say that, Tim, you know, he isjust a, the model of humility.
No, they would possibly usesome other words to describe
me, but I'll tell you will.
(31:09):
I mean, we self-published, but I,I was like going, I wasn't sure I
wanted to push upload Amazon andall because was a bit different.
It was a novel.
It was, there was a littlebit of self-reflection in it.
I had never put a lot of words out, eventhough I'd been writing most of my life.
(31:30):
uh, it was a little bit of a shaky start.
I I don't,
I
don't think I was excitedabout possible criticism.
Maybe that
was what it was.
Yeah.
Um.
Which is interesting, but, youknow, I I think about personal
preference and I wonder how thatintegrates into what you do.
I man, I just thought about thisbook series and it was, most of
(31:51):
this audience would probably agreethat the 50 Shades of Gray books
were trash as far as their content.
But even worse, to me it was
just
bad writing.
I, I, I had someone around me that saidthey read a portion of it and, you know,
I think it was El James or something,made a boatload of money, did well and
(32:11):
all that kinda stuff to, truthfully,it was almost porn if you ask me.
the writing was
horrible, you know, had it
Yeah.
good writing, I wanna say, okay,the content's not my thing and
all that, but it, it was horrible.
So does personal preferenceand just liking versus not
liking certain things enter into
(32:32):
your role?
Yeah.
Uh, are you asking sort ofhow I evaluate writing or,
Yeah.
Well, I mean, you mentioned in the,uh, earlier you said this just, this
is good writing, or this writing
may not be
good.
yeah.
how do you know maybe the best way of
asking how do you know ifwriting is good or not?
(32:54):
Then this might be me personally
asking.
Yeah, yeah, great question.
And I should qualify.
I'm a nonfiction editor, so I,I can really speak primarily
to, you know, that genre.
'cause fiction writers to me, I just amfilled with envy, uh, how gifted they are.
Um, I mean, to, to tell a story and, andthat being all that your book is, it a
(33:17):
story from start to finish gotta knowwhat you're doing with pacing and dialogue
and the, the way you describe things.
Um, but yeah, in the nonfictionworld, what makes good writing,
there's no way around thesubjectivity of it to be fair, right?
So some people are gonna love onetype of author and they're not
gonna like another, and the nextperson is gonna feel differently.
(33:41):
They might feel the reverse, but ingeneral, um, I think writing that
resonates, uh, addresses a need.
Something that readerscan readily identify.
It, it names an ache that they feel,and in the best cases, it names an
(34:02):
ache that they feel but haven't beenable to articulate for themselves.
So good writing provides the gift ofour articulating the, the groans of our
soul, whether it's the fear we feel,the hopes that we have, the dreams that
we have, the problems we're facing.
And a mistake I think a lot of writersmake is their writing is too them focused.
(34:27):
Um, they're they're writing forthemselves, not for the readers.
And so as an editorial team, we havedifferent ways that we will coach writers,
like different comments that we'll make.
Here's a few of em.
We'll say something like, this is agreat place to turn to the reader.
In other words.
Go and ask the reader a question orencourage them to think about something.
(34:51):
or if you've just taught someprinciple or truth show, give
them a, uh, buffet of ways thatthis could work out in their life.
Get their juices flowing,that kind of a thing.
So, turn to the reader, but myfavorite one is look the reader
in the eye because it's concrete.
It's like you're sitting at coffee andthere's someone across from you And
(35:14):
you know those moments in conversationswhere sometimes you're distracted,
you're stirring your coffee, maybeyou're glancing over at the awkward first
date, sitting next to you, you know?
But then you have moments whereyou're just making direct eye contact.
You're, you're locked in and you're,you're connecting with the person
that you're communicating with.
And good writing taps into that, eventhough it's on the page, not in person.
(35:39):
it's quite possible to do that.
So that's one thing.
What else makes for good writing?
I would say, um, clarityand and pacing are huge.
And so a lot of what I helpwriters do is really boil down
what they're trying to say.
Uh, a good story at the wrongtime makes it a bad story.
(36:03):
So a lot of times I'll bereading through a manuscript
and I'm like, this is hilarious.
I love this story, but it doesn't fit.
Or, wow, this is aheartbreaking narrative.
Um, I think actually youspent too much time here.
I think you went into somedetails that are gonna burden
readers rather than help them.
(36:24):
Um, and not saying writers shouldairbrush or minimize their pain, but
when we get writing, sometimes weget extra cathartic and uh, we start,
it's like a therapy session for us.
And again, the minute you decidethat you wanna share your words with
others, that the writing is for them.
What that means is you have to putthem first and you have to be a
(36:46):
ruthless eliminator and editor ofyour own life and sprinkle them in
as seasoning, But not the main course.
Uh, the exceptions of course,would be a memoir where
that's, that's the whole deal.
But those are extremely hard tosell, even harder to write Well,
and um, I think a lot of writersintuitively turn to to memoir when
(37:09):
they're trying to write something.
'cause it's like, oh,I'll just write my story.
Um, but actually what most nonfictionbooks should be, I think, is, uh,
books that are teaching you something,solving a problem, that kind of a thing.
They're, they're instructive in some way.
So, um, I could go on and on, but,but those are, those are a few things.
(37:29):
And I mentioned pacing, that, thattaps into the storytelling aspect.
So knowing how long totell a story is part of it.
So is transitioning from the end of thatstory into whatever point you're making.
And you could do that or inductively.
Deductively is when you give thetruth first, and then, uh, you
(37:51):
explain it through the story.
Inductively is where you start withthe story and the climax of the story.
Almost like one of Jesus'sparables is this pithy takeaway,
like the take home point.
Um, so you, you can do it either way,but, and knowing how to do that well
and knowing, okay, what details willengage the reader and keep them clued
(38:13):
in, and then when too many detailsare going to cause them to tune out.
Like those instincts are very whenit comes to writing nonfiction.
Yeah, and it's good.
like that you brought up that there is adifference between fiction and nonfiction.
One of the hardest things Ihad to do, write more what I
call fiction with a purpose.
I'm attempting to teach and get some
(38:36):
points
across.
So it's kinda Like fiction on a
mission or something like that is
Like Pilgrim's
But dialogue,
something like that, you know, dialogue.
I actually hired a coach
to help me with writing
fantastic.
It was like extremely
difficult to do, but
Yeah.
do you see a at all between peoplethat are good uh, oral communicators?
(39:01):
and that they're also goodwritten or is there a disconnect?
The, the reason I bring it up, Iwas in Bible school and there was
a lady that said, you know, Tim,you're a pretty good writer and
all that, would you read my book?
And this was a person that was sortof awkward communicating in general.
And truthfully, the bookwas a little awkward also.
(39:21):
So,
and maybe that
was just an isolated
Hmm.
correlations with people that are,if they're good communicators, it
translates to multiple Written speakingor, or am I trying to make something
of nothing?
I.
Yeah, great question.
I think it would dependon, um, a few things.
So it depends on what you mean by goodoral communicator, because there's
(39:45):
there's different skills involved, right?
So I'm editing a book right now whereI actually think he's a incredible
oral communicator, but one of hisskills is distilling big ideas in
small, catchy, memorable phrases.
Um, and when he submitted hismanuscript, I was like, wow, I'm
(40:08):
seeing that on the page like you have.
You know, I, I told him becauseI was just debriefing with him.
I was like, these phrasesare like souvenirs.
They're things that, because they'reso pithy and so catchy, readers can
take them with them and remember them.
You know, they may not remembereverything you said in the book, but
some of these are gonna stick with them.
(40:28):
That's a communicationgift that this guy has.
Um, but there's often a huge disconnectbetween people who are great on stage, in
person communicators, and then they go towrite a book and it's all over the place.
Because they're intuitive thinkers.
They're not super linear.
(40:48):
They, they, they don't think as muchin terms of structure and order.
They're just really goodat capturing a room.
And you could honestly give themany topic and just be like, go
riff on that and make it engaging.
And they could do it.
Um.
Then you have communicators who aresort of the unicorns who can do both.
(41:09):
It's like they have, um, they havethis magnetic quality about them.
They have an ability to read a roomand to win people over effortlessly
in short, you know, in minutes.
And they know how to structure.
they know how to build a talkto sort of a climactic point.
(41:30):
Um, they know how to, as wewere saying, really look people
in the eye and engage them.
So it's not just about here's the truthand the information, but there's a
real presence about them and, and theycan see their audience really well.
Um, yeah, those folks, they can pullit off, but often we have to sort
(41:52):
of, teach some new skills to publicspeakers as they come to a book.
the question is, do you, write.
The way you talk, andshould You yes and no.
Um, certainly you wantit to be accessible.
You want it to be relatable.
You don't wanna sound stiff andawkward on the page, but it's
not exactly the same thing.
(42:12):
Um, words flow in a page differently.
I think the way that you handle a30 minute talk into an auditorium
is different than the way youwrite a chapter in a book.
And, um, you know, with a book, uh,I've, I've heard this comparison from
a mentor of mine who's a great, uh,speaker, communicator, and a thoughtful
(42:34):
writer, but he just said the differencebetween a book and a talk is that in
a talk, people are stuck there for 30minutes and you've got 'em with a book.
The goal is just get 'em to turn one morepage, one more page, one more page, and
it's, it's a game that you have to play.
It's a skill you have to cultivate.
(42:56):
And so.
I would say maybe just to synthesize,it's like in a book, the demand
or the the urgency to really hookreaders and keep them with you
because they have many other options.
They can close the book, they can checktheir phone, they can turn on Netflix.
Um, they have to choose to read you.
(43:16):
you've gotta learn the art of, ofkeeping 'em with you and, uh, them in
really authentic ways and remindingthem, Hey, this is for you and, um,
you're gonna get something out of this.
So, um, yeah, those are a few thoughts.
That was really good.
And I actually, as you were youmentioned that rare unicorn that can
(43:37):
speak and
Yeah.
had this epiphany of where mygranddaughter got the idea that
she could play the piano when she's
never really sat before.
cause, cause I had this flash go throughmy mind going, oh Tim, you're the unicorn.
You could do both.
That was my thought,
Yeah.
then I thought, well,that's pretty delusional.
(43:57):
That's, I'm trying to be
self-aware at the same time.
I'm being delusional.
I'm like going,
no, you're not.
That's not
the case.
But,
Yeah.
uh, anyway, that is, thatis, that's really good.
And I'm, I'm glad I asked that question.
I wanna follow it up with somethingthat kind of nags at me at times.
And I don't know where I fit into it.
I think I'm
stepping
into it a little bit more.
(44:18):
Hmm.
what, how do you define the differencebetween someone who's a writer, just
love putting words on paper, digital orwhatever, an author, someone who just
loves cranking out books, and then maybe astoryteller that might have some of both.
And I might even be missing some terms,but I see those used interchangeably in
(44:41):
this
industry and at times I wonder where
I. Fit.
So what, and say whateveryou want to about those.
'cause I'm guessing yousee some of all of those
Yeah, that's a fascinating distinction.
And so as, uh, my friend Andy Crouchsays, you know, I have ideas, but
maybe not many thoughts, you know,well-formed, um, to me an author, there's
(45:07):
an undertone there of, it's a career.
Um, and it's somethingyou do vocationally.
Um, it doesn't have to be your soleincome, but you know, maybe every
couple years you're, you're puttingout a book or something like that.
Um, writer is a term.
I think you even said, Tim, maybe beforewe hit record, like I've written and
(45:29):
I have all these ideas, but I don'tknow that I'd call myself a writer.
And I would actually push back onthat a little bit because what is
the standard of being a writer?
Do you have to be a Flannery O'Connor?
Do you have to be a CS Lewis?
You know, um, of course not.
Um.
When we think of writing andbeing a writer, I encourage people
(45:51):
to give themselves permission.
You'll never be a writer bysaying You're not a writer.
Um, like my 5-year-old self inkindergarten writing an acrostic
poem, you gotta believe it.
Um, even before it's maybe true or,or maybe a better way of saying it
is, becomes more true the more youdo it and the more you, um, dignify
(46:16):
what you're doing by allowingyourself to say, I am a writer.
Uh, writers like any other art form.
Um, we're all in different stages.
And if I compared myself to someof my good writer buddies, I
would feel inadequate every time.
But I do call myself a writer,um, And I encourage people to,
(46:38):
to think of it in those terms.
And so, and then storyteller,that's an interesting one.
Storytelling is so integral to all typesof writing fiction, nonfiction, you
know, if we're gonna distinguish betweenwriters and authors, I think to be a
writer, you have to be a storyteller.
(46:59):
There's, there's no way around it.
Um, that is the sort of, uh, that'sthe language that we speak in.
That's the quickest way to the heart.
That's the best way to capture attention.
Um, it is, you know, the, the wayto teach a truth in a way that is
(47:19):
enjoyable and engaging and delightful.
And so, yeah.
Are there storytellersthat aren't writers?
Sure, of course.
People choose different mediums, right?
Uh, you have some who they lovepodcasting, telling stories that
way, or, um, telling storiesthrough film or songwriting.
(47:42):
I think just the good old fashionedcircling up and telling stories.
I actually, my friendgroup in college did this.
we we had storytelling nights uh,sometimes there'd be a theme and we would
just gather and we we tried to bring ourbest work and tell stories to one another.
Uh, I I love that.
But yeah, I think as a storytellingis part of the bread and
(48:06):
butter of what we're doing.
Uh, the reason it sortof resonates with me,
is I find myself
working on a
lot of stories.
Yeah.
I, do have not.
Nonfiction, things that I'm workingon, some things I wanna get across,
but what I will often find is I'mlooking for a fictional way to bring
the
(48:26):
point across of what I'm also working on
in the nonfiction space,
Yeah.
leads me to believe, it'slike, maybe I'm just wired.
Maybe that's what God called me to do,to go back to our earlier conversation.
Yeah.
But, uh, and I, and I do enjoy that,which then this actually brings
up my, it's not a trick question, but
(48:47):
boy, it's
one that's front and center.
Mm.
Is AI cheating?
is AI messing up the world thatwe're in, or is it enhancing it
and flushing out a lot of things?
I could argue both ways, and I couldtell you that I'm knee deep or maybe
neck deep into AI with doing a lotof things with my work and all that.
(49:11):
And I'm doing some with mywriting, so be be gentle
if you're gonna tell meI'm cheating on that.
But is it, is it
cheating?
It's funny.
I was on a a podcast earlier this morningand the same question was asked, I am
what I would call AI agnostic or AIcautious, and I've heard arguments.
Even this week I waslistening to a couple debates.
(49:34):
Um, between people, uh, I think it wasthe the New York Times was predicting
some almost catastrophes that AIis going to unleash on the world.
and these are not conspiracy theory folks.
These are, you know, reasonable,very intelligent people
talking about these things.
(49:54):
But I think, so first of all, thosethat are AI cautious, there's no
avoiding AI in, in the world at large.
Um, it's so competitive.
Companies basically have thechoice between incorporating
AI are being left behind andmaybe even going outta business.
I don't know.
Uh, so I just heard Logoff software.
(50:17):
They have a new AI search feature,you know, so we're talking
even ministry aimed companies.
Everyone's doing it.
Um, I don't think the, in our world,you can, you'll be able to avoid it
if you use an app or if you searchsomething, um, it's just gonna be coded
in and you may not even realize it.
So, uh, we don't have necessarily totalautonomy and choice in every area, but
(50:44):
when it comes to our creative work and ourwriting, we absolutely do have a choice.
So for me, um, I'm still processing this.
I can speak from the publishing side.
Our authors are not allowed towrite their content using ai.
Um, our contract specifies that they canuse AI to ideate, to come up with ideas.
(51:06):
But if any sentences are createdwith an LLM, they have to be
rewritten in an author's own words.
That's our hard and fast stance.
We want the author's thoughts.
If you think of all of human historyup until, what, three years ago?
AI did not exist.
And look at the beautiful thingsthat humans have created, the
words that they have written.
(51:28):
Um, we, we don't wanna disrupt that.
Um, the hard thing is for most of us,AI can write faster and better than
what we could produce on our own.
some say Sweet.
Let's do it.
That sounds great.
the problem with that is, and with anypiece of technology, uh, when you start
(51:48):
to give yourself those shortcuts, yourcritical thinking starts to atrophy.
Um, it's in the pain and the toil andthe, and the frustration and the dead ends
of the creative process where you gottago for a walk or you have to sleep on an
idea, or you have to let things marinate.
(52:08):
That's what's at stake.
Um, those beautiful sentences and ideasthat are the overflow of that pain.
And that inconvenience.
And so AI is like microwaving ideas.
you you can pop 'em out quicklyand they're warm and they're,
(52:29):
they're ready to eat and serve up.
But, uh, there, there will be someof us, and this is where I'd put
myself, that I, I try to, I'm tryingto protect my capacity for creativity.
Understanding that the more Itake the shortcut, the more when
I hit a roadblock, I'm gonna turnto it again and again and again.
(52:51):
And I'm gonna slowly erode my capacity fordeep thinking and for creative patience
for creative tenacity and resilience.
And, um, I, I neverwant to be that person.
So, uh, I do use in a, in afew ways, um, even in my job.
I'm still evaluatingwhether I want to and, um.
(53:14):
Yeah.
When it comes to writing,I don't use it at all.
Um, I, I stay away from it,so that's my personal stance.
I, I, I've used it.
It's a great brainstormingpartner for some things that I
am working on.
I did an
experiment when
the gr
Hmm.
you know,
X came out.
Yeah.
I I had some ideas and I jumped on it.
(53:35):
This kind of my way of testing it.
I had some ideas about somestories that were leading up.
There were fictional stories, but theywere based in scripture, fictional
stories that were leading up to the fallof the, the fall of Jerusalem in 80 70.
And when I started, I went downa rabbit hole and two and a
half hours later, I, I had a
(53:55):
mini novel
Wow.
I, I, I'll be blunt, it was a prettygood story and it and I, and it kind
of messed with me will, because Italked to my wife later and some
others, I said, I'm trying to.
Determine if this was mystory, I feel very confident it
was because I was arguing.
I'm going, no, that's not
(54:16):
what happened.
This is the scripture.
on the, you know, I went throughall this stuff, but yet I
didn't write any of
the words.
Yeah.
it for a writing assistant witha lot of things I do in business.
I've just cranked out job for an entireorganization in no time with some input.
So I, I think it's gonna be oneof the big challenges that we
have to deal with in the near
(54:37):
future now, you deal primarily with
Christians,
Yeah.
that
adds another
Yes.
I, we we had this discussion withthe Christian Podcasters Group and
we were talking about taking podcastand using AI to transcribe and
create some things from the podcast.
And would've thought, I I said
(54:59):
Jesus didn't go to thecross and die for our
sins.
Yeah.
it was like, that'sthe devil and all that.
Any any comments on it
from not just a writing, but from a faith
standpoint?
I.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I I think what I was sayingearlier about our creative capacity,
um, that's something to think deeplyabout, you know, um, because the words
(55:24):
that we use, um, responsible for Andwe're, we're held accountable for.
So there, there's that side of it.
And just wanting to steward our, ourwords well in a way that glorifies
God and does good for others.
I think we need to bepatient with one another.
Um.
Because this is coming so fast and, um,you know, faster arguably than maybe
(55:51):
any other technology in our lifetime.
And I, I don't know, I, I, describemyself as agnostic because I'm
not even sure I can comprehend thefull implications of this question.
Um, I have one colleague who said,AI is not a moral issue anymore
than the internet is an issue.
It's, it's how you use the tool.
It's not the morality of the tool itself.
(56:12):
And I'm like, okay, I can see that.
At the same time, the problemis hasty adoption and mindless
acceptance of something.
Um, and because it's coming sofast, you know, we don't even
have a choice in the matter.
So I just encourage people to be patient,uh, as I've listened to AI debates.
(56:33):
I'll be honest, they just mess me up.
They give me crazy cognitivedissonance and I'm just like, I don't
even know what to think about this.
and so I start with what I doknow and what I feel called to.
And for me that is anything that I'msending out as my writing, I want to know
(56:54):
that I wrote it, um, that I struggled,and I'm actually willing to put out
something that's mediocre comparedto what AI could do if it's mine.
Um, because I want to see mygrowth, as I was saying earlier.
I wanna be able to look back andsee that, um, I want to push my
mind and explore the, the, the fullcapacity that God has given me.
(57:17):
Um, so yeah, as we have theseconversations, I would just say walk
slowly, form conclusions, slowly,listen deeply and with charity and also.
First and foremost, listen to God'sspirit whispering to you and pay attention
(57:39):
to the convictions of your heart.
Um, I, I'm imagining because of howAI's taken over the world to be dogmatic
about this one way or the other, is at acertain point just going to be divisive.
And, you know, it's kind of social media.
I have strong opinions about it, butultimately I I can have good conversations
(58:02):
with others about it, but I have tolet them before God and others make the
decision that they feel right about.
Um, so I hope that's not too diplomaticof an answer, but I, I truly feel
like I'm just immersed in this debateright now and trying to find my way.
I don't think we're gonna beable to get away from it either.
(58:23):
Will, you know, one of thethings I've asked myself,
I've really reflected on some.
I've worked on because my mynovel, I wrote 70,000 words,
these two fingers typed out
every bit of it,
Mm-hmm.
it was excruciating and it was joyful and
it was
challenging and all of those
Yeah.
(58:43):
Um, but then to sit down and in twoand a half hours, and I and I do
wonder if it might be the differencebetween someone who considers
themselves a storyteller versus someonewho puts a lot of words on paper.
And that's something that I'm kind of
wrestling with.
Um, will, we're running up against our
time, but
there's two more questions
Mm-hmm.
got, and the first one is, I know we'vegot some people probably because of the
(59:04):
title and the topic are interested in.
Putting a
book out.
I,
Yeah.
I, fascinating.
I heard years ago that like 87% ofall people think they've got a book
in them, which fascinates me becauseI think this, there's only like 49% of
the people that actually read books.
So that means there's a disconnect between
(59:24):
people that
read and people, anyway, that's,
Yeah,
nother
point.
But, um, what I think people get confusedor they don't understand, and this might
be a short answer for a long topic.
How does the money work with, when wemove into a publishing type situation,
self-publishing, you justwork on it, get it good,
pop it up on
(59:44):
Amazon or whatever,
Yeah.
but how does the money workwithin a publishing world?
And then I'm gonna ask.
you to
people how they can connect with you.
And then I've got onemore exclamation point
question I want
to ask.
Yeah.
That's great.
Yeah.
For someone who doesn't know howpublishing works, um, you really
make money writing in two ways.
Uh, the first is your advance,so that's an amount of money.
(01:00:05):
that a publisher agrees to pay youfor your book, and you get that money.
No matter what.
It's usually paid out in severalinstallments at different stages of
the writing and publishing process.
Um, and then secondly, if your booksells, and that's a big if, 'cause most
books do not earn out their advance,um, then you get royalties as well.
(01:00:26):
So essentially you make the publisherthat money back that they paid you.
Um, if you sell additional copies,then you get a certain percentage
of of sales and the percentageincreases, the more that you sell.
So what's great aboutpublishing for writers?
I. Well first the challenge isit's hard to land a book deal,
(01:00:46):
uh, because as you said, Tim, youknow, so many people want to write.
So it's highly competitive.
But if you do land a book deal, unlikehow the the record industry used
to work, maybe it still does, butwhere a band would sign a deal and
then they would be responsible for,if they didn't make back the money,
they were on the hook to pay it back.
(01:01:07):
That is not how publishing works at all.
The author gets the money, thepublisher takes the hit no matter what.
another aspect of how the money worksinternally is, I, I may have the
percentages a little off, but it'ssomething like 20% of our books pay
for, you know, 80% of our budget.
So most books don't workfinancially speaking.
(01:01:29):
Um, and so when writers get angrywith publishers, like, ah, you know,
they're, they're just about themoney I. We actually lose money on
80% of the authors we take risks on.
And uh, it's the few that float the many.
So, kind of fascinating inside peak there.
Yeah, that's good.
Um, why don't, why don'tyou go and tell people?
(01:01:51):
Like, let's just saysomeone's listening in.
They go, you know what I, I need toconnect with will I, I actually think
your newsletter might be the best spot to
Mm-hmm.
but, um, go ahead and let,this is like promo time.
Tell
everybody where to find you.
I've got one
more comment and a
question then we'll be done.
good.
uh, where do
they go?
Yeah, it's very simple.
It's just writer circle.co.
So writer circle.co.
(01:02:13):
and that's where you cansign up for my newsletter.
Um, and my goal with the newsletter isbecause I, as an editor, I meet so many
writers who are looking for their nextstep, or they want to know how publishing
works and they want to grow as a writer.
And so every Saturday I send outa tip on writing or publishing.
That can be read in five minutesAnd I'm just taking all my learnings
(01:02:34):
from my job, the, the best,you know, practices that I see.
And I just try to pour those into mynewsletter in a really bite-sized way.
And then, uh, I also have a podcastalso called The Writer Circle, where I
interview well-known Christian authors.
I interview other editors like myself,literary agents, like basically
(01:02:56):
giving you a behind the scenes lookat what it it takes to write well
and get published and all of that.
So both of those resourcesare@writercircle.co.
That's great.
We'll include the links downbelow on YouTube and also on the
podcast so people can connect.
Will I know you specificallywork with Christians?
We didn't really,
(01:03:16):
we talked a good
bit about it, faith, but
Yeah.
like, you know, just 20, 20, 30 seconds.
quick tip final thing here,quick tip that you've got.
For someone who's listening in, they go,you know what I, I'm a person of faith.
I think I'd like to put a booktogether, or, I think I've got
one or something like that.
Just whatever the HolySpirit puts on your heart.
What's
a quick tip you wanna leave us with
(01:03:37):
before I wrap
this up?
Yeah, thanks Tim.
I would probably say this
before you can run a marathon, you shouldrun a 5K and a book is a huge undertaking.
Not to say that those of you listen aren'tup for that challenge, but my question
would be, have you written an article?
(01:04:00):
Um, have you started a substack Or a blog?
Or a newsletter?
Have you practiced the shortform of what you want to do?
Long form?
Um, a lot of people hit this dead end asthey're trying to write a book and maybe
they even get 20, 30,000 words down, whichis incredible, but then they fizzle out.
And so if you've got a topic thatis burning, you know, inside of
(01:04:23):
your heart and mind, I would say.
Write a couple short pieces andemail that to a close circle of
family and friends and start aconversation and and get some feedback.
And that's going to build a number ofmuscles, not just your writing muscle
and help you improve in your craft, butit's going to help you get used to that
(01:04:47):
risky feeling of putting your wordsout there, um, to to have your bubble
burst a couple times when people pushback or don't read what you've written.
And what happens sometimes is weromanticize the idea of writing a
book or the, book, this ultimate goalthat we're so, uh, transfixed by.
(01:05:08):
Um, and most people never get therewhen they try to run the marathon,
you know, going from zero to 100.
So yeah, it's, it's about getting some.
Littler wins under your belt and notdespising those little wins, but, but
seeing them as you're training and asa joy, um, a lot of people want a book,
(01:05:31):
but they don't actually like writing andthey haven't quite realized that yet.
writing short form stuff, I'm talkinga thousand words or less, um, that's
going to help you discover, um, if youactually love it enough to keep doing it.
And so a book cannot create alove for writing, but a love
(01:05:51):
for writing can create a book.
Mm-hmm.
That is so good.
Will Parker Anderson, man,I enjoyed this conversation.
I knew that I would.
I, uh, um, make sure you gocheck out writer circle.io.
I've got it pulled uphere, on my computer.
And one of the funny thing beforeI before I close this out here, I
actually will take someone's bioand use AI to get some questions.
(01:06:16):
I rarely get to them, but therewas one that, there was one that I
was looking at here that I wantedto, I'm just gonna mention it.
We're not gonna answer itand we're gonna close out.
This was a question that AI generated.
If Jesus were launching a writingministry today, what do you
imagine his submission letter toa major publisher might look like?
Wow.
(01:06:36):
I'm glad we're signing off so Idon't have to answer that one.
my goodness.
We are done with that.
So Will Parker Anderson,thank you for joining us.
This was, this has beena great conversation.
It has been helpful for me.
I know listeners been helpful for you.
Just learning more about insightsabout the writing industry and what's
going on It's been a real blessing.
I appreciate you Will for sharing with us.
(01:06:58):
We are seek go create.
We've got new episodes here every Monday.
We're on YouTube, growing fast over there,podcast channels, all of those things.
Keep doing all that you're doing becausewe are getting the word out with these
long conversations with great people
like Will.
So
thanks for listening in.
We will
see everyone
next week.
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