September 1, 2025 • 44 mins
Have you ever wondered if the Book of Revelation was meant to be a riddle for today's readers, or if its mysterious symbols actually made perfect sense to the early church? In this episode of Seek Go Create, host Tim Winders welcomes back theologian Leo De Siqueira to unpack the language, history, and meaning behind Revelation’s most puzzling images—like the beast, Babylon, and the infamous 666. Together, they challenge modern assumptions, reveal surprising insights from the Aramaic text, and explore what John’s visions truly meant for his first-century audience. If you’re ready to rethink everything you thought you knew about Revelation, this conversation is for you.
"Heaven and earth becoming one—that is the revelation and the culmination of Christ's victory." - Leo De Siqueira
Access all show and episode resources HERE
About Our Guest:
Leo De Siqueira is a theologian and author renowned for his in-depth, three-part commentary series on the book of Revelation. His scholarship focuses on understanding Revelation within its first-century context, highlighting the significance of the Aramaic language and the victory of Christ. With academic training in Hebrew and Greek, Leo leverages his linguistic expertise to unearth subtle nuances within biblical texts, bringing fresh insight into the prophetic literature. He is recognized for challenging traditional interpretations and promoting a holistic, historically informed approach to Scripture.
Reasons to Listen:
- Discover how understanding the original Aramaic language and first-century context radically changes the meaning of key themes in Revelation—beyond what most modern interpretations offer.
- Get myth-busting answers to hot topics like the rapture, 666, the Beast, and the rebuilding of the temple—explained in a way that challenges long-held beliefs with historical and biblical evidence.
- Explore why the prophetic imagery in Revelation resonated deeply with its first audience, and how those symbols connect to the bigger story of life, death, and hope in the Bible—possibly reshaping your whole perspective.
Episode Resources & Action Steps:
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Leo De Siqueira’s 3-Part Commentary Series on Revelation - Leo references his own three-book series that dives deeply into Revelation from a first-century, Aramaic, and historical context. (Book titles include in part: "Dawn of Eternity.")
- Bible Translation Software - Leo mentions using Bible translation tools for studying Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic manuscripts to gain greater nuance and understanding.
- Historical Writings of Josephus - While not discussed in detail, both Leo and Tim reference the historical accounts of Josephus, especially regarding events surrounding 70 AD, making his works a core supplemental resource.
Action Steps for Listeners:
- Re-examine Your Understanding of Revelation - Instead of interpreting Revelation strictly through modern lenses or one-verse doctrines, approach it as first-century listeners would by considering language, historical context, and Jewish prophecy.
- Explore the Historical and Cultural Context - Read Leo De Siqueira’s commentary series or similar resources that incorporate Aramaic texts and first-century Jewish perspectives to broaden your understanding of Revelation’s symbolism and meaning.
- Dig Deeper into Biblical Languages and History - Use Bible translation software or online courses to explore passages in their original languages (Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic) and...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leo De Siqueira (00:00):
one verse doctrines are a cancer to the body of Christ.
(00:04):
and they're so prevalent.
Tim Winders (00:17):
Welcome back to Revelation Revealed.
I'm kind of titling this,everything you've wondered about
Revelation and what it really says.
The dragons, the bowls, the mark, thetrumpets, and of course that ominous
6, 6, 6, that, people have heardabout and used and thrown around.
Revelation is full of symbols andquestions that can confuse people, but
(00:40):
what if those images made perfect sense?
Mostly perfect sense to thepeople who first heard them.
In this episode, Leo de Sequeira is back.
He helps us walk through Revelation theway the early church did with eyes on
Jesus and confidence in his kingdom.
Let's look at what Revelation really says.
And what it doesn't.
(01:02):
Our guest is Leo d Sequeira, theologian,and author of a three-part commentary
series on Revelation that sinnersaround first century context, the Aramic
language, and the victory of Christ.
If you missed the first episode, makesure you go back 'cause that's where
we kind of went over the foundation.
In this episode, we're gonna beactually diving into Revelation.
(01:24):
I highly recommend you go back, butthis one will stand on its own too.
Leo, welcome back.
Leo De Siqueira (01:29):
Hey, good to be back, Tim.
Tim Winders (01:32):
So one thing I think we missed, maybe in this first one that
I wanna kind of get started with aswe get started with some of these
exciting topics like The Beast andBabylon, and might even throw in a
little bit of rapture and, you know,talk about where that is in Revelation.
And so you could point tothose scriptures for us.
Tell us about the language.
I didn't get into this in the first one,but Aramaic, you kind of consider yourself
(01:54):
somewhat of a linguist and the languagethat this was written in or spoken in
or was shared in is kind of important.
Talk a little bit about thatbefore we dive into some of these
exciting topics.
Leo De Siqueira (02:05):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, just by way of of clarification, Idid have the opportunity to study, Hebrew
and Greek in Bible college or seminary.
And, Aramaic is very similar to Hebrew.
So I was able to you know, whatI'd learned and start to learn
how to, go through the Aramaicversion of the New Testament.
(02:29):
And, thank God for, bibletranslation software as well.
That certainly helps.
And so, you know, I'm, by no means ateacher, but certainly have been able
to learn enough to go through the text.
I really became obsessed with justtrying to unearth and dig as much
as possible, and I'd say really feltlike an Indiana Jones experience.
(02:50):
Just, I just wannaunearth as much as I can.
I don, I, you know, I have noregard for theological camps or
trying to uphold a specific view.
It's just like, I just wanna knowwhat what's there, and then I'll
wrestle with whatever I discover.
One thing.
Never really sat with me is, youknow, modern scholarship is convinced
(03:11):
that everything is Greek, that Jesusspoke Greek, everybody spoke Greek
and everything was written in Greek.
And okay, perhaps,
there's too many tell signseven in the New Testament that
suggests otherwise, you know?
And I just wasn't convinced of that.
so just started to do some digging.
(03:33):
Realized that we have.
an Aramaic New Testamentthat still exists today.
It's not the original, right?
like the Hebrew Bible that we readtoday is not the original Hebrew, right?
That's a eighth and ninth century edition.
Right by the Maites.
That's why it's called the ma text.
And you know, the Greek that wehave today is not original, so
(03:55):
we have to accept those things.
And the Aramaic too.
But it certainly is, it points backthe earliest manuscripts, which I do
believe were, were, composed in Aramaic.
You know, maybe not every book of the NewTestament, but certainly a lot of them, I
believe would've been composed in Aramaic.
And if anything, the apostles,that was their first language.
(04:18):
Right.
And we have a lot of contextual evidence.
We have a lot of historicalevidence for this.
That whole region, Aramaicwas the lingua franca, Is the
primary language of that region.
And you know, even you read throughthe Gospel of John, it's like, and
then he came to this place, whichan Aramaic was, and then, you know.
He was crucified here,which in Aramaic was called.
(04:40):
It's like, well, why would youmention that it's in Aramaic if
nobody spoke it or referenced it.
Right?
So it's just reallyfascinating, little tidbits.
And what I found is going through theAramaic text is that there's really
some subtle nuances to the Greekwere actually quite enlightening.
for instance in Revelation 11, theGreek Bible talks about, outside of
(05:02):
the temple being destroyed, but theAramaic actually talks about the
inside of the temple, being destroyed.
And that was really fascinatingbecause that's kind of the key event
of 70 ad is, you know, at this timeit was Titus that they went right into
the holy place and they sacked it.
They took all the gold,and then tragically a Roman
(05:22):
soldier set it all on fire.
And that's why the holy.
Of holies burned down andall the temple burned down.
But it's like this prophecy ofJohn actually calling out the
fact that that was gonna happen.
You only find that in theAramaic, not in the Greek.
Right.
So there's some reallyinteresting, subtle nuances there.
(05:43):
the other fascinating thing, andthis is less to do with Revelation,
but more to do with soteriology,the doctrine of salvation is
The Greek talks about salvation.
You know, what must I do to be saved?
Right?
That famous question that somebodyasked Jesus, the word saved in Aramaic
is, is not the word saved at all.
It's not soso, it'sactually the word life.
(06:05):
And if you swap out every instance in theNew Testament where you see the word saved
for life, takes on a whole new meaning.
So the man who comes to Jesus,he says, what must I do?
In order to have life, which isso much deeper than, you know,
how do I get my fire insurance?
(06:28):
Which is how we read that today.
And you look at the gospels,especially John a Life is a
central theme, death life.
John, in fact, has an entiredoctrine his writings, including
revelation of a first death.
And a second death of a firstresurrection and a second resurrection.
(06:50):
This is unique to John, and if youstring everything that he's written
together, you see thematically, hetalks about a first death, a first
resurrection, a second death, and a secondresurrection, which is quite fascinating.
These are very central, central themes,and again, the Aramaic really highlights
those themes in a way that the Greek not.
Tim Winders (07:13):
It is fascinating.
I believe it was about 10, maybe 12years ago, my wife Gloria and I, we
kind of decided we need to learn Hebrew.
Leo De Siqueira (07:24):
Hmm.
Tim Winders (07:26):
And so we signed up for some online class and we started,
we like to think we're okay.
Smart.
We found out we're not.
It was tough.
It was hard.
and we unfortunately quitshortly into that process.
(07:48):
but I do think all that you're saying,Leo highlights, while some of this.
There's a simplicity tothe story of the Bible.
I don't like to oversimplify, but itdoes make more sense when you understand,
but there's also these barriers thatkind of keep us from really digging in.
I love what you brought up.
I don't wanna get off track with what Ireally wanted to cover in this episode.
(08:09):
Maybe this will be episode three, but themindset that many people currently have
that we will put in the Christian camp.
Is, like you said, fire insurance,that Jesus did what he did, just
so we could accept that, havesalvation and get to heaven.
(08:31):
That's it.
that is the ultimate story of theBible and that that's not accurate.
Correct.
Leo De Siqueira (08:41):
You know, it was like a, um, it was, um, a minister
slash scholar, about 150 years ago.
I'd asked these questions like,where was the instruction manual in
Genesis warning, Adam and Eve of Hell?
(09:02):
Where was the instruction manual to Moses?
Warning The Israelites of Hell.
Right.
And so it's fascinating and peoplethink, oh, you know, Leo's talking
about the fact that everybody dies.
and goes to heaven, and youcan live inconsequentially
Tim Winders (09:19):
Universalist.
Oh, he's a universalist.
Leo De Siqueira (09:21):
a universal list.
And it's like, no, it, it's, we don't,we don't swing the pendulum from
one end, one extreme to the other.
That's simply ignorance.
And that's not at all what I'm suggesting,but what I'm suggesting is our binary
notion in or out, turn, or burn.
Does not fit the biblical framework.
(09:43):
There's something much broader at play,and so again, we have to just very
simply ask ourselves if what I believetoday is central to my faith, should
be very clearly outlined instructionsin the Bible from the beginning.
(10:08):
Oddly you can't find it.
While that's quite unfair then all thosepeople who were living in that time.
Right.
So Adam and Eve went to hell noteven being told that it exists.
Hmm.
That's
Tim Winders (10:27):
Didn't have a chance.
Leo De Siqueira (10:29):
I digress.
Tim Winders (10:31):
Yeah, we digress and, and there's so much there that I
don't know, we'll, maybe we couldpick this up in episode three of,
I believe that we don't quite graspthe concept of the writers of the New
Testament, specifically Paul and otherswhen they talk about life and death.
I think we're so binaryin that life and death.
(10:53):
You know, when they talk about the seconddeath and the, and the first and second.
Anyway, that
I think that might fit in a littlebit to our episode three, which is
where are we and where are we headed?
But let's, let's dive into Revelation and,and what you did in your three book arc,
(11:14):
which I do wanna say here again, how muchthey impacted my, my Wife and I's Journey.
There were a number of books andwe were reading hundreds, if not
thousands as we've been on thisjourney, Totally go against what
I believe is accurate and true.
But I was reading it just to, I wantedto get it all, you know what I mean?
I was really digesting a lot of stuff.
I still have this chart on my computerwhere someone laid out the entire
(11:39):
history of revelation and laid it outover the last 2000 years of history.
You know, Catholic church being theantichrist and all that kind of stuff.
Not accurate, but I just sort of keepit as a memento just to, you know,
maybe might blow it up and put iton the wall or something like that.
But, You've put together the, thebooks two and three is where you walk
(11:59):
through what we would say the, youknow, book two, I think you got up
to chapter 12, and then in book threehere, for some reason I don't have book
two here with me for whatever reason.
But you go through chapter 12 to 22 in,in the final book, which we'll talk a
little bit about in episode three, butbe before we go into some specifics.
(12:21):
I want to say a few things that areobservations of mine, and I want
you to either pick 'em apart, agree,disagree, expound on them or whatever.
As I read Revelation in the earlysections and I just read it again kind
of in one sitting morning before lastin preparation for this conversation.
(12:41):
To me, after you get through the.
Churches list, it sounds like acourtroom type judgment scene early
on, and I bring that up to ask, isthere a general way we could look
at what the revealing of Christ.
(13:05):
Is as we kinda step into Revelationand, and you could tell me that doesn't
make sense or a little bit or whatever,
Leo De Siqueira (13:13):
You
Tim Winders (13:14):
is that too much?
Leo De Siqueira (13:17):
the incredible weight of prophetic writings is that
they are immediate and timeless.
I mean, how often have you, even goneto like Jeremiah or Ezekiel and found
comfort in some of the verses, right?
It's like thousands of years later.
How is that possible?
And that really is the weight ofprophetic literature, is that it is
(13:38):
both for an immediate context, and thatis consistent throughout the Bible.
Every prophetic book had animmediate audience and yet timeless,
and I think that's certainly thecase for the book of Revelation.
And so it would be ignorant todismiss either side of that.
(14:00):
There is an immediacy the senseof Christ is revealing himself
as true and faithful to his word.
Christ is revealing himself to be theone that he proclaimed himself to be.
Christ is revealing himself asthe one to fulfill what he spoke.
To those where he said, thisgeneration will not pass away.
(14:21):
Heaven and earth may pass away,but my words will not pass away.
He's revealing himself as theone who is true and faithful.
He's revealing himself as theone who's told his churches, who
are being persecuted, who arepersevering as the one who is coming.
There's the revelation then of thefact that he is the high priest, right?
(14:44):
It what's really amazing isJohn sees Jesus walking through,
and again, the Greek says he'swalking amongst the stands.
The Aramaic actually says he'swalking amongst the menorah.
So we have this templeimagery of the high priest.
In the, we'll call itthe heavenly tabernacle.
(15:07):
The heavenly temple, high priestis walking through as the one.
And then what do we immediately see?
The high priest is also the sacrifice,the lamb, who was slain and as victorious.
He's revealing himself to beek, right?
And then what we start tosee is the revelation of.
(15:27):
The unfolding, the unwinding of theend of this mosaic age and the tragic
consequences that are brought about.
And then we also see a revelationof the age that is at hand and
to come, which culminates inheaven earth becoming one, one.
Tim Winders (15:49):
Hmm.
Gosh, I wanna dive into that.
but because that's not the waya lot of people read Revelation,
Leo De Siqueira (16:00):
Yeah.
Tim Winders (16:01):
they read it line by line.
They're often looking atheadlines and things like that.
If you look at, we've, discussed in thefirst episode, Matthew 24, Jesus words.
You know, if we go back to theorigin of the mosaic covenant and
(16:23):
the blessings and the curses, youknow, back in, I guess Deuteronomy,
I think is where those those are.
And then we look at whatis revealed in these.
Chapters of Revelation and then alsowhat we know about history Josephus.
Do do all of those kind of start.
(16:46):
Coming together.
Do, does that make any sense?
You know what I mean?
Because I read some of the warnings.
See, I came from a prosperity gospel.
I've shared this withthe listeners before.
And so all I did in Deuteronomy wasjust, grabbed those blessings and I,
shouted them, quoted 'em, wrote 'em on.
I never looked at those curses.
But when you look at those cursesand then you look at what Josephus
(17:07):
talks about actually occurred.
And then you look at some of the thingsthat we can look at in verse by verse.
In Revelation, you weaveJesus words into it.
To me, it just like explodes in my mind.
All this is related.
Leo De Siqueira (17:22):
Yeah, it is.
the incredible thing is that Godactually shows Moses what would happen.
ultimately the peoplewould go astray, right?
and then the blessings andthe curses, like you said.
if you read those curses, it'sverbatim, you see those curses echoed
in Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24.
(17:44):
You see those curses echoedthroughout the book of Revelation.
then you see curses actuallymanifesting in real life as Josephus
is chronicling what he's seeing.
it's incredibly sobering, butit's all pointing to that event.
you go back to Paul, right?
You go back to the apostles understandingthat they were living in a time
(18:09):
where they're gonna start to see thecurses of Deuteronomy come to pass.
That's the sense of urgency.
That's the heartbreak thatthey're feeling for their people.
Tim Winders (18:19):
Hmm.
What can you say, I know you wrote abook on this and this was one of your
books I have not been able to read,but what can you tell us about the
seven churches in the beginning ofRevelation that we might need to know?
Leo De Siqueira (18:32):
Yeah.
Whew.
You know, seven churchesare both timeless.
there's incredible, mystery of howthese seven churches and the themes
are woven and the sequence of churches,you know, and what is discussed.
I mean, again, there'stimeless aspects to it.
(18:52):
There's prophetic aspectsto it that touch all of us.
at the same time, thosewere real locations.
I mean, you can visit themtoday if you book a tour, right?
A Holy Land tour.
And, those places remnants.
And you have to think of a timewhere there's no local church, right?
(19:15):
You're not turning on the radioand listening to a preacher.
You're not going to, you know, going tothe local bookstore and, and you have like
35 versions of the viable to pick from.
you, you had an encounter.
That you cannot deny, and there's asmall group of people who've had the same
encounter and you congregate together.
(19:35):
That was Christianity at that time.
Nobody was walking in there with a Bibleunder their arm for Sunday morning church.
I mean, was, there was somethingthat was undeniable that they went
literally from the Kingdom of darkness.
In, in this pagan societyor if you were a Jew, right?
You have your, your mosaic context,but you had an encounter, you had an
(19:58):
experience, you have the Holy Spirit,and you're hanging, you're hanging
onto this, you know that this istrue and this is what you have, and
you are, you are facing heavy, heavyopposition from your countrymen.
Again, early church waspredominantly Jewish, right?
So your countrymen areadamantly per persecuting.
you Like you are in error.
(20:20):
are exactly the type of personthat Moses says we need a stone.
Like there's heavy opposition.
This is why Paul got stoned so many times.
Like they're just followingscripture and, you're like, Jesus,
like we know that you are true.
How long is this gonna last?
And so Jesus comes to thesepinnacle churches that were under
(20:42):
John's pastorate to bring both.
Correction and comfort, andwe think that, you know,
there's a level of intensity.
You're like, wow, Jesus.
You don't really feel like a, youknow, that tender shepherd right now
when you're talking to these churches,and I would suggest is, you know,
(21:04):
when the stakes are high, right?
let's say you take your kidshiking and you're, you've, you've
hit the ridge of the mount.
I'm, I'm, I'm near the Rocky Mountains.
If you're near the Appalachians, maybeyou have an understanding as well.
But when you hit that ridge, there'sparts along that ridge where it's,
it's like life or death on either side.
And so if your kids are followingyou and, and your their lives are on
(21:28):
the line, you're gonna turn aroundand be like, don't go that way.
We're not kidding around right now.
And it's like, wow, dad, you'rebeing really harsh and intense.
It's like, yeah, I, I, Ican see falling right now.
Like, not the time for tenderness.
Like this is real.
This is happening.
This is the narrow path right now.
(21:50):
And that's the intensity that Jesus has.
Why?
Because those people.
We're gonna witness theirwhole world turned upside down.
So the, the people that werepersecuting them were gonna fall by
the sword or be sold in a slave trade.
Right?
Very, very heavy stuff.
even in the Roman Empire, the RomanEmpire went through incredible
(22:12):
turmoil and ne nerom commit suicide.
There's three different coups ofdifferent people trying to vie for
power nations that were under the Roman.
started to rebel, right?
There was, there wassquames and stuff like that.
it just became
(22:32):
And literally it was theyear of chaos that happened.
It was called the yearof the four emperors.
And so you're living in those times andyou're like, it's the end of the world.
What's, what's gonna, and so Jesusis like, this is the path forward.
And so he
Tim Winders (22:47):
Mm.
Leo De Siqueira (22:47):
Because of the intensity, what's gonna be going on around you?
Tim Winders (22:51):
We also know there was quite a bit of turmoil within Jerusalem and
within the leadership of Israel, correct?
I mean, weren't there coups andall type stuff going on there?
So there was a shaking,I'll use that word.
Leo De Siqueira (23:03):
yeah.
Huge.
Tim Winders (23:04):
of the end of days that we look back and go, oh
no, it wasn't the end of days.
No.
If we were there, we would have felt it.
So, do you believe that the churcheswere literal or symbolic or Both.
Leo De Siqueira (23:21):
Both
Tim Winders (23:22):
Okay.
Good.
Leo De Siqueira (23:23):
percent both.
Tim Winders (23:24):
Okay.
Leo De Siqueira (23:24):
there were real, real congregations for sure.
Right.
We have early churchevidence for that as well.
and we have early churchfathers that succeeded John and
the pastor of those churches.
Right.
So we have a lot of earlychurch evidence for that.
But there were also, they're symbolic.
Tim Winders (23:41):
Yeah.
Leo De Siqueira (23:42):
I find comfort in reading through what Jesus says to those churches.
Even today.
Tim Winders (23:48):
Right.
Leo De Siqueira (23:49):
many who would be listening right now do as well.
Tim Winders (23:52):
Yeah, in the last episode we talked about the dating of Revelation,
and I'll let people go back and listento that, but one of the things that
you see in Revelation is some veryclear, I don't wanna say timing and,
and I know we have to be careful aboutliteral versus symbolic, but in both
the beginning and the end, there is a.
(24:14):
This is soon.
This is going to happen soon.
maybe you have some insight intothe Aramaic if it's different, but
was there the thought that thiswas going to happen 2000 years from
now, or was it going to be soon?
What?
Tell me what soon means.
Leo De Siqueira (24:32):
Yeah, I mean there's seven time posts mentioned, and
all relating to the urgency, right?
So this is about to take place,this is about to take place.
This is about to take place, you know,so whether you wanna translate it as
soon or quickly or swiftly, none of thosewords mean long distant delay, right?
(24:53):
So it's really nuances, but.
can't escape the fact that thereis an immediacy and an urgency.
And, you know, the envelope ofrevelation is that it begins and
ends with pastoral exhortation.
So there's the pastoral, likeit's, now it's happening, and then
(25:13):
in the middle is like, here's theprophetic significance of why.
And that's the middle of Revelation.
That's the core.
So on both sides, there's theimmediate boots in the ground
like, I see you, I'm with you.
I know you.
(25:34):
Right?
Jesus talking to his church at that time.
then at the core of Revelation isthis is the prophetic explanation
of what you are about to see.
Tim Winders (25:47):
Hmm.
It's interesting to me how peoplewill say that Jesus, in what he said
in Matthew 24, was symbolic, but inthe same breath, they will say that
revelation verse by verse is literal.
(26:07):
What would you say to someone thatis going to attempt to take verse
by verse by verse in Revelation andliterally attempt to interpret that?
Leo De Siqueira (26:20):
Yeah.
You know there there's two things.
Two critical flaws.
So first of all, we've inherited, know,ever since the scientific revolution,
people decided to take ascientific approach to the Bible.
So the Bible, if you look atchurch history, always embraced as
(26:41):
a corpus, a corpus of scripture.
Jesus embraced the Old Testamentas a corpus of scripture
because on the Emmaus Road walk.
It, it says like, fromMoses of the prophets.
He showed how he was revealed in that.
And then all of a sudden we got into thismindset of dissecting verse by verse.
(27:02):
So we've already missedit in, in our approach.
Scientific revolution destroyed, biblicalscholarship, and that's the first flaw.
So we have to understand how ourfathers those who went before us
actually approached scripture.
Going all the way back toJesus, Jewish sages as well,
(27:23):
have that outlook on the Bible.
And the second thingis, we don't understand
the law of Moses.
We don't understand the lawand the prophets nearly enough,
and we don't understand firstcentury history nearly enough.
(27:45):
You can't talk about the book ofRevelation without having at least a
decent grasp of the law and the prophets.
A lot of my footnoting to try tofast track the reader's baseline
understanding in order to comprehend.
In other words, I'm a firstcentury Jew from John instructions.
(28:10):
What would I have knownas a first century Jew?
That's the gap that we must fillif we're to approach that book.
Tim Winders (28:20):
Hmm.
Okay.
So
Leo De Siqueira (28:24):
it around you.
You take
Tim Winders (28:26):
yeah.
Leo De Siqueira (28:26):
century Jew and show 'em an Instagram feed,
they're, they're gonna be,what the heck is going on here?
So what context would they need tounderstand what we take for granted?
You're flipping through your feed.
There's technology references,there's government references, right?
(28:46):
There's political stuff going on.
There's new cultural norms, like wheredo you even begin to contextualize
somebody so that they can understandwhat you take for granted?
It's very simple, so you justflip it around and you're
like, oh yeah, you know what?
I have to recreate an entire world.
In my mind to then understandhow that person might have
(29:08):
received this information.
Tim Winders (29:10):
And, I think it's so dang arrogant.
this was my experience in Bible school.
Gosh, I love them.
I really do love Christians.
I'm critical of them at times,so I wanna qualify that.
I really do love Christians, but hangingout with them in the environment I was
in, I really was getting frustratedwith the plucking of a scripture.
(29:31):
To attempt to apply it to somethingpolitically or in our world today.
I do believe we can learnfrom it and glean from it.
We have to, but without anycontext of the overall biblical
narrative or the biblical story.
And that's one of the things Ithink that's been driving me.
I believe we're going to get into thata little bit in our final episode,
(29:52):
but what I'd love to do now, Leo,I think this is a hangup for a lot
of people, and that is some thingsthat they have had drilled into them.
Brainwashed would be anothergood word that are biblical, that
are in Revelation that exist.
I know that you're a deeper thinker and Iknow that from your writing and from our
(30:14):
talking, you like to expound on things.
But I think to wrap up this episode,I would almost like to do some rapid
fire questions about some hot topics.
That nag at people every time webring this topic up, because they've
been taught it over and over again.
You know how Lindsey Little Lake, greatPlanet Earth, one of the most widely
(30:37):
sold books, they've seen it in that theythought that Henry Kissinger was the
Antichrist or Bill Clinton or whatever.
They read all the leftbehind books like I did.
Sorry about that.
But, but let, let's hit some topics.
I know you go, you go throughRevelation in your books, and so for
people that want something that goesthrough, that's what the books are for.
(31:00):
But let's hit some things real quick.
Where in the Bible or Revelation willwe find the description of the rapture?
Leo De Siqueira (31:10):
You won't there.
Tim Winders (31:14):
What?
Okay.
How about other parts of the Bible?
Maybe not Revelation, maybe Thessalonians,there's a scripture somewhere in Thesal.
I'm being sarcastic for thosethat can't pick up on it.
Where?
Come on now.
I've built my whole
world around that.
I'm gonna escape from all of this stuff.
Leo De Siqueira (31:33):
yeah, yeah.
First Thessalonians talkabout being caught up.
Right.
And, and the coming, coming ofour Lord and isolating that verse
and just, you know, stoppingthere is, is what took place.
Right.
And again, in ignorance because it,again, it's the corpus of scripture,
(31:57):
not the isolation of verses.
I mean, one verse doctrines area cancer to the body of Christ.
and they're so prevalent.
What, that, what Paul is talking about.
And again, go read 1st Corinthians15, which Paul also wrote, which I
will call perfect ex eschatology.
By the way, If you want a Cole's Notesversion of the book of Revelation or,
(32:21):
or End Times or anything like that.
Just read first Corinthians 15.
That one chapter sums it all up.
It's fascinating.
So what Paul talks is talking aboutis being caught up in the air.
To not then continue to float away.
Now we're now we're adding stuff in.
(32:42):
He's talking about, he says to receive ourLord, we're actually ushering in the king.
So this, the symbol of beingcaught up is so as to receive.
In the same way that in, in ancient timesacross almost every culture, if your
king returned from battle victorious,by the way, or if your king returned
(33:08):
from a long journey, the people ofthat kingdom would come out of their
gates in adoration, in admiration, andcelebration to receive back their king.
That is the image that we have.
Look at Revelation 21.
(33:33):
The new Jerusalem comes down fromheaven to the renewed earth as a
bride adorned for her bridegroom.
the bridegroom?
Jesus.
So where is the consummationof matrimony taking place?
(33:54):
It's right there in the book.
on the ground that you're standing on, butrenewed, made new like in Genesis two, and
three before the fall, Eden restored here.
and Earth won.
So first the Thessalonians in isolation.
(34:15):
You can deduct whatever you want,that's ignorance because you're
missing the corpus of scripture, right?
One Corinthians 15 talks about the greatresurrection and receiving earth suits,
Paul's like, Hey, you know how Jesusreceived this new body when he was raised?
He could like eat fish and walkthrough walls and disappear from plain
(34:38):
sight, but they could also touch him.
And the holes were there.
That body, we're getting that bodythe great resurrection takes place.
Why?
Because we're gonna be in a realmwhere heaven and earth are one.
Powerful, powerful, Stu.
It's in the book.
You just gotta read it.
Tim Winders (34:57):
Yeah, we'll look at that more too.
'cause that's that.
Leo De Siqueira (35:01):
That's to
Tim Winders (35:01):
That's that.
What's coming and what's next?
We'll look at here.
All right.
Couple other things.
the beast.
6, 6, 6,
Leo De Siqueira (35:09):
Yeah.
Tim Winders (35:09):
the beast where, what's up with the beast?
Leo De Siqueira (35:12):
Yeah.
so there's two wild animals.
That's what the, that's what the word is.
Two, two wild animals.
one's a leopard, one's a ram.
they're not Godzilla,
unfortunately.
It's, it's, you just gotta read the woods.
You know?
(35:32):
It's, it's just
Tim Winders (35:33):
That'd be kind Cool though.
Leo De Siqueira (35:34):
funky
Tim Winders (35:34):
I visual.
I.
Leo De Siqueira (35:37):
A funky looking leopard and a, funky looking bighorn sheep.
it's what they represent that matters,the leopard representing Rome and I talk
about it at length in, book number three.
'cause that's chapter 13 of Revelation.
6, 6, 6.
the first beast is Rome.
Second beast is Apostate Israel.
(35:59):
very key to understandbeasts in Revelation 13.
Rome, apostate, Israel.
6, 6, 6.
emphatically, neuro, using Hebrew letters.
As numerical values,which is very commonplace.
And to even take that a step further,um, some, if you've ever done a really
(36:20):
deep dive in 6, 6, 6, you've comeacross the 6 1 6 variant as well.
there's some very early Copticwritings and these were like Egyptian
Christians, they wrote 6 1 6.
Why?
Because in Coptic language, neuro, valuesin their translation worked out to 6 1 6.
(36:41):
there's no way of escaping thefact that this was pointing
to a very specific person.
Tim Winders (36:47):
Hmm.
Okay.
Gosh, let me think real quick here.
The two witnesses that peopletalk about and try to project into
future, what can you tell us justbriefly about the two witnesses?
Leo De Siqueira (37:01):
Moses and Elijah Law on the Prophets law.
On the prophets testify there.
it's what was written therethat is coming to pass the
Tim Winders (37:11):
Right.
Leo De Siqueira (37:11):
of
breach of covenant.
Tim Winders (37:14):
Okay.
Um, to sarcasm alert here, let me justgo ahead and preface where in Revelation
does it talk about the rebuilding ofthe temple, finding the red heifers,
getting everything together so that thetemple can be rebuilt, so that we could
prepare for the next coming and all,and the nation of Israel being restored.
Leo De Siqueira (37:38):
no more, and in, in,
Tim Winders (37:41):
On Leo.
Leo De Siqueira (37:42):
in fact, you know, I, I'll, I'll be perhaps even crass
enough to say that, you know, you're,you're getting, you're, you're
almost tinkering with like, you know,
a opposing the gospel at this point.
I don't know how you canread the book of Hebrews.
(38:04):
And then think that there's gonnabe a rebuilding of a temple.
Like it, it's the, the ignorance requiredto be seduced into that worldview, right?
Is like you're dismissing
sections of the New Testament to supporta doctrine that is inconsequential.
(38:29):
To God's story and what he meansto accomplish with humanity.
Inconsequential.
It is astounding how many peoplehave bought into that in ignorance.
they might be well-meaningthey are tragically deceived.
Tim Winders (38:50):
Yeah, it's very discouraging.
For me to hear that there areChristian groups and churches,
well-known ministers that are raisingmoney right now to contribute to a
temple being rebuilt in Jerusalem.
I'm just going, what arethey teaching, preaching?
it does make for keepingpeople coming back every week.
Leo De Siqueira (39:12):
Yeah.
Tim Winders (39:12):
you know, some of the messages that we're speaking about here,
I don't wanna say it's one and done.
We could keep talking about it, butit doesn't create something exciting.
Every time there's an event thatoccurs in the world, it's established.
one last thing on this episode I havein my mind, I don't know if I've been
oversimplifying it, but this will kindof prep us for our final episode that I
(39:35):
believe we have time to get in, beforewe're finished our time together today,
I have been looking at the first 19chapters of Revelation as being roughly.
Already occurred or occurred inand around that 80, 70 time period.
(39:56):
I think a lot of people are too.
Leo De Siqueira (39:58):
Mm-hmm.
Tim Winders (39:58):
Is that somewhat accurate?
And we're gonna look at 2021 and 22 inthis next episode, but talk to me about
that as we finish up this episode two.
Leo De Siqueira (40:08):
Yeah.
the first few verses of Revelation 20,were fulfilled in that seven 80 D event.
Yeah,
Tim Winders (40:16):
Yeah, and it really helps to look at that and we didn't talk
about the storytelling and the code.
I think that maybe John May have writtenit in, but I think just knowing that
those first 19 chapters occurred.
Leo De Siqueira (40:30):
Yeah,
Tim Winders (40:31):
Around 80, 70 really kind of helps people with their understanding.
Would you agree with that?
Leo De Siqueira (40:38):
A hundred percent.
I mean, put yourself in the shoesof a, of one of the handful of
Gentiles that would've convertedright in the first century.
And you're reading Book of Revelation.
I mean, you've not studied the law, right?
you don't, you're not familiarwith the culture revelation's
just gibberish before you, right.
Tim Winders (40:56):
Yeah.
Leo De Siqueira (40:57):
Revelation is simply every verse almost.
from Revelation five onward isjust hyperlinking some sort of
prophecy, some sort of event,some sort of Old Testament theme.
if you had a mouse, you'd bescrolling over the verses and it
would just be giving you scriptureverses scripture verse like, it's,
(41:23):
there's hundreds, hundreds.
Of Old Testament references as youread through, chapters five to 19.
So how could you have expected somebodywas not a Jew outside of the law to be
able to understand what was happening?
(41:43):
Meanwhile, somebody who was broughtup in that culture and environment
would've immediately picked up onthe illusions in the illustrations.
Like the Song of Moses makes no sense to.
Somebody in Rome, right?
A first century Roman in Rome.
What does he care about?
The Song of Moses.
But as a Jew, I know that the song ofMoses was a prophecy that God gave to
(42:06):
Moses, saying, when the time comes inthe future, when this people group goes
astray and the curses of the law come topass, you will sing this song, or they
will sing this song, and then God givesMoses this song basically saying like,
this is why this is happening to us.
That's right in book of Revelation.
(42:29):
So that's only gonna make sense forsomebody who grew up in that environment.
'cause they're gonna be like, andthen the song of Moses was sung.
It's like, oh my goodness, thecalamities of Deuteronomy are happening.
Right?
It, it's like immediately youunderstand if you knew the context.
Tim Winders (42:52):
That's good.
Well, we busted up a fewthings here by, throwing.
In that rapture out and no red heifers.
I hate to disappoint people.
We'll see if that's gonnastill have people listening in.
But here's what we're gonna do.
We're gonna stop now and nexttime what Leo and I are gonna do.
(43:12):
'cause I, gosh, we had a conversationa while back and I love where
he goes, especially with histhird book, Dawn of Eternity.
I'll go ahead and share with you atthe early part of this next episode
how it nest with me a little bit.
But we'll look at things like themillennium, the Dragon, Satan's short
time, and possibly what the futureholds based on scripture, not based on.
(43:37):
Fake timelines and different thingslike that, maybe the most important
conversation about how we live today.
Leo, I appreciate you.
This has been awesome.
thanks for joining us here at Seek GoCreate for this episode two and make
sure you come back for episode three,which is kind of a, where are we now?
The final vision in thatshort time of Satan.
(44:00):
Until next time, thanks forjoining us on Seek Go Create.
one verse doctrines are a cancer to the body of Christ.
(00:04):
and they're so prevalent.
Tim Winders (00:17):
Welcome back to Revelation Revealed.
I'm kind of titling this,everything you've wondered about
Revelation and what it really says.
The dragons, the bowls, the mark, thetrumpets, and of course that ominous
6, 6, 6, that, people have heardabout and used and thrown around.
Revelation is full of symbols andquestions that can confuse people, but
(00:40):
what if those images made perfect sense?
Mostly perfect sense to thepeople who first heard them.
In this episode, Leo de Sequeira is back.
He helps us walk through Revelation theway the early church did with eyes on
Jesus and confidence in his kingdom.
Let's look at what Revelation really says.
And what it doesn't.
(01:02):
Our guest is Leo d Sequeira, theologian,and author of a three-part commentary
series on Revelation that sinnersaround first century context, the Aramic
language, and the victory of Christ.
If you missed the first episode, makesure you go back 'cause that's where
we kind of went over the foundation.
In this episode, we're gonna beactually diving into Revelation.
(01:24):
I highly recommend you go back, butthis one will stand on its own too.
Leo, welcome back.
Leo De Siqueira (01:29):
Hey, good to be back, Tim.
Tim Winders (01:32):
So one thing I think we missed, maybe in this first one that
I wanna kind of get started with aswe get started with some of these
exciting topics like The Beast andBabylon, and might even throw in a
little bit of rapture and, you know,talk about where that is in Revelation.
And so you could point tothose scriptures for us.
Tell us about the language.
I didn't get into this in the first one,but Aramaic, you kind of consider yourself
(01:54):
somewhat of a linguist and the languagethat this was written in or spoken in
or was shared in is kind of important.
Talk a little bit about thatbefore we dive into some of these
exciting topics.
Leo De Siqueira (02:05):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, just by way of of clarification, Idid have the opportunity to study, Hebrew
and Greek in Bible college or seminary.
And, Aramaic is very similar to Hebrew.
So I was able to you know, whatI'd learned and start to learn
how to, go through the Aramaicversion of the New Testament.
(02:29):
And, thank God for, bibletranslation software as well.
That certainly helps.
And so, you know, I'm, by no means ateacher, but certainly have been able
to learn enough to go through the text.
I really became obsessed with justtrying to unearth and dig as much
as possible, and I'd say really feltlike an Indiana Jones experience.
(02:50):
Just, I just wannaunearth as much as I can.
I don, I, you know, I have noregard for theological camps or
trying to uphold a specific view.
It's just like, I just wanna knowwhat what's there, and then I'll
wrestle with whatever I discover.
One thing.
Never really sat with me is, youknow, modern scholarship is convinced
(03:11):
that everything is Greek, that Jesusspoke Greek, everybody spoke Greek
and everything was written in Greek.
And okay, perhaps,
there's too many tell signseven in the New Testament that
suggests otherwise, you know?
And I just wasn't convinced of that.
so just started to do some digging.
(03:33):
Realized that we have.
an Aramaic New Testamentthat still exists today.
It's not the original, right?
like the Hebrew Bible that we readtoday is not the original Hebrew, right?
That's a eighth and ninth century edition.
Right by the Maites.
That's why it's called the ma text.
And you know, the Greek that wehave today is not original, so
(03:55):
we have to accept those things.
And the Aramaic too.
But it certainly is, it points backthe earliest manuscripts, which I do
believe were, were, composed in Aramaic.
You know, maybe not every book of the NewTestament, but certainly a lot of them, I
believe would've been composed in Aramaic.
And if anything, the apostles,that was their first language.
(04:18):
Right.
And we have a lot of contextual evidence.
We have a lot of historicalevidence for this.
That whole region, Aramaicwas the lingua franca, Is the
primary language of that region.
And you know, even you read throughthe Gospel of John, it's like, and
then he came to this place, whichan Aramaic was, and then, you know.
He was crucified here,which in Aramaic was called.
(04:40):
It's like, well, why would youmention that it's in Aramaic if
nobody spoke it or referenced it.
Right?
So it's just reallyfascinating, little tidbits.
And what I found is going through theAramaic text is that there's really
some subtle nuances to the Greekwere actually quite enlightening.
for instance in Revelation 11, theGreek Bible talks about, outside of
(05:02):
the temple being destroyed, but theAramaic actually talks about the
inside of the temple, being destroyed.
And that was really fascinatingbecause that's kind of the key event
of 70 ad is, you know, at this timeit was Titus that they went right into
the holy place and they sacked it.
They took all the gold,and then tragically a Roman
(05:22):
soldier set it all on fire.
And that's why the holy.
Of holies burned down andall the temple burned down.
But it's like this prophecy ofJohn actually calling out the
fact that that was gonna happen.
You only find that in theAramaic, not in the Greek.
Right.
So there's some reallyinteresting, subtle nuances there.
(05:43):
the other fascinating thing, andthis is less to do with Revelation,
but more to do with soteriology,the doctrine of salvation is
The Greek talks about salvation.
You know, what must I do to be saved?
Right?
That famous question that somebodyasked Jesus, the word saved in Aramaic
is, is not the word saved at all.
It's not soso, it'sactually the word life.
(06:05):
And if you swap out every instance in theNew Testament where you see the word saved
for life, takes on a whole new meaning.
So the man who comes to Jesus,he says, what must I do?
In order to have life, which isso much deeper than, you know,
how do I get my fire insurance?
(06:28):
Which is how we read that today.
And you look at the gospels,especially John a Life is a
central theme, death life.
John, in fact, has an entiredoctrine his writings, including
revelation of a first death.
And a second death of a firstresurrection and a second resurrection.
(06:50):
This is unique to John, and if youstring everything that he's written
together, you see thematically, hetalks about a first death, a first
resurrection, a second death, and a secondresurrection, which is quite fascinating.
These are very central, central themes,and again, the Aramaic really highlights
those themes in a way that the Greek not.
Tim Winders (07:13):
It is fascinating.
I believe it was about 10, maybe 12years ago, my wife Gloria and I, we
kind of decided we need to learn Hebrew.
Leo De Siqueira (07:24):
Hmm.
Tim Winders (07:26):
And so we signed up for some online class and we started,
we like to think we're okay.
Smart.
We found out we're not.
It was tough.
It was hard.
and we unfortunately quitshortly into that process.
(07:48):
but I do think all that you're saying,Leo highlights, while some of this.
There's a simplicity tothe story of the Bible.
I don't like to oversimplify, but itdoes make more sense when you understand,
but there's also these barriers thatkind of keep us from really digging in.
I love what you brought up.
I don't wanna get off track with what Ireally wanted to cover in this episode.
(08:09):
Maybe this will be episode three, but themindset that many people currently have
that we will put in the Christian camp.
Is, like you said, fire insurance,that Jesus did what he did, just
so we could accept that, havesalvation and get to heaven.
(08:31):
That's it.
that is the ultimate story of theBible and that that's not accurate.
Correct.
Leo De Siqueira (08:41):
You know, it was like a, um, it was, um, a minister
slash scholar, about 150 years ago.
I'd asked these questions like,where was the instruction manual in
Genesis warning, Adam and Eve of Hell?
(09:02):
Where was the instruction manual to Moses?
Warning The Israelites of Hell.
Right.
And so it's fascinating and peoplethink, oh, you know, Leo's talking
about the fact that everybody dies.
and goes to heaven, and youcan live inconsequentially
Tim Winders (09:19):
Universalist.
Oh, he's a universalist.
Leo De Siqueira (09:21):
a universal list.
And it's like, no, it, it's, we don't,we don't swing the pendulum from
one end, one extreme to the other.
That's simply ignorance.
And that's not at all what I'm suggesting,but what I'm suggesting is our binary
notion in or out, turn, or burn.
Does not fit the biblical framework.
(09:43):
There's something much broader at play,and so again, we have to just very
simply ask ourselves if what I believetoday is central to my faith, should
be very clearly outlined instructionsin the Bible from the beginning.
(10:08):
Oddly you can't find it.
While that's quite unfair then all thosepeople who were living in that time.
Right.
So Adam and Eve went to hell noteven being told that it exists.
Hmm.
That's
Tim Winders (10:27):
Didn't have a chance.
Leo De Siqueira (10:29):
I digress.
Tim Winders (10:31):
Yeah, we digress and, and there's so much there that I
don't know, we'll, maybe we couldpick this up in episode three of,
I believe that we don't quite graspthe concept of the writers of the New
Testament, specifically Paul and otherswhen they talk about life and death.
I think we're so binaryin that life and death.
(10:53):
You know, when they talk about the seconddeath and the, and the first and second.
Anyway, that
I think that might fit in a littlebit to our episode three, which is
where are we and where are we headed?
But let's, let's dive into Revelation and,and what you did in your three book arc,
(11:14):
which I do wanna say here again, how muchthey impacted my, my Wife and I's Journey.
There were a number of books andwe were reading hundreds, if not
thousands as we've been on thisjourney, Totally go against what
I believe is accurate and true.
But I was reading it just to, I wantedto get it all, you know what I mean?
I was really digesting a lot of stuff.
I still have this chart on my computerwhere someone laid out the entire
(11:39):
history of revelation and laid it outover the last 2000 years of history.
You know, Catholic church being theantichrist and all that kind of stuff.
Not accurate, but I just sort of keepit as a memento just to, you know,
maybe might blow it up and put iton the wall or something like that.
But, You've put together the, thebooks two and three is where you walk
(11:59):
through what we would say the, youknow, book two, I think you got up
to chapter 12, and then in book threehere, for some reason I don't have book
two here with me for whatever reason.
But you go through chapter 12 to 22 in,in the final book, which we'll talk a
little bit about in episode three, butbe before we go into some specifics.
(12:21):
I want to say a few things that areobservations of mine, and I want
you to either pick 'em apart, agree,disagree, expound on them or whatever.
As I read Revelation in the earlysections and I just read it again kind
of in one sitting morning before lastin preparation for this conversation.
(12:41):
To me, after you get through the.
Churches list, it sounds like acourtroom type judgment scene early
on, and I bring that up to ask, isthere a general way we could look
at what the revealing of Christ.
(13:05):
Is as we kinda step into Revelationand, and you could tell me that doesn't
make sense or a little bit or whatever,
Leo De Siqueira (13:13):
You
Tim Winders (13:14):
is that too much?
Leo De Siqueira (13:17):
the incredible weight of prophetic writings is that
they are immediate and timeless.
I mean, how often have you, even goneto like Jeremiah or Ezekiel and found
comfort in some of the verses, right?
It's like thousands of years later.
How is that possible?
And that really is the weight ofprophetic literature, is that it is
(13:38):
both for an immediate context, and thatis consistent throughout the Bible.
Every prophetic book had animmediate audience and yet timeless,
and I think that's certainly thecase for the book of Revelation.
And so it would be ignorant todismiss either side of that.
(14:00):
There is an immediacy the senseof Christ is revealing himself
as true and faithful to his word.
Christ is revealing himself to be theone that he proclaimed himself to be.
Christ is revealing himself asthe one to fulfill what he spoke.
To those where he said, thisgeneration will not pass away.
(14:21):
Heaven and earth may pass away,but my words will not pass away.
He's revealing himself as theone who is true and faithful.
He's revealing himself as theone who's told his churches, who
are being persecuted, who arepersevering as the one who is coming.
There's the revelation then of thefact that he is the high priest, right?
(14:44):
It what's really amazing isJohn sees Jesus walking through,
and again, the Greek says he'swalking amongst the stands.
The Aramaic actually says he'swalking amongst the menorah.
So we have this templeimagery of the high priest.
In the, we'll call itthe heavenly tabernacle.
(15:07):
The heavenly temple, high priestis walking through as the one.
And then what do we immediately see?
The high priest is also the sacrifice,the lamb, who was slain and as victorious.
He's revealing himself to beek, right?
And then what we start tosee is the revelation of.
(15:27):
The unfolding, the unwinding of theend of this mosaic age and the tragic
consequences that are brought about.
And then we also see a revelationof the age that is at hand and
to come, which culminates inheaven earth becoming one, one.
Tim Winders (15:49):
Hmm.
Gosh, I wanna dive into that.
but because that's not the waya lot of people read Revelation,
Leo De Siqueira (16:00):
Yeah.
Tim Winders (16:01):
they read it line by line.
They're often looking atheadlines and things like that.
If you look at, we've, discussed in thefirst episode, Matthew 24, Jesus words.
You know, if we go back to theorigin of the mosaic covenant and
(16:23):
the blessings and the curses, youknow, back in, I guess Deuteronomy,
I think is where those those are.
And then we look at whatis revealed in these.
Chapters of Revelation and then alsowhat we know about history Josephus.
Do do all of those kind of start.
(16:46):
Coming together.
Do, does that make any sense?
You know what I mean?
Because I read some of the warnings.
See, I came from a prosperity gospel.
I've shared this withthe listeners before.
And so all I did in Deuteronomy wasjust, grabbed those blessings and I,
shouted them, quoted 'em, wrote 'em on.
I never looked at those curses.
But when you look at those cursesand then you look at what Josephus
(17:07):
talks about actually occurred.
And then you look at some of the thingsthat we can look at in verse by verse.
In Revelation, you weaveJesus words into it.
To me, it just like explodes in my mind.
All this is related.
Leo De Siqueira (17:22):
Yeah, it is.
the incredible thing is that Godactually shows Moses what would happen.
ultimately the peoplewould go astray, right?
and then the blessings andthe curses, like you said.
if you read those curses, it'sverbatim, you see those curses echoed
in Jesus' prophecies in Matthew 24.
(17:44):
You see those curses echoedthroughout the book of Revelation.
then you see curses actuallymanifesting in real life as Josephus
is chronicling what he's seeing.
it's incredibly sobering, butit's all pointing to that event.
you go back to Paul, right?
You go back to the apostles understandingthat they were living in a time
(18:09):
where they're gonna start to see thecurses of Deuteronomy come to pass.
That's the sense of urgency.
That's the heartbreak thatthey're feeling for their people.
Tim Winders (18:19):
Hmm.
What can you say, I know you wrote abook on this and this was one of your
books I have not been able to read,but what can you tell us about the
seven churches in the beginning ofRevelation that we might need to know?
Leo De Siqueira (18:32):
Yeah.
Whew.
You know, seven churchesare both timeless.
there's incredible, mystery of howthese seven churches and the themes
are woven and the sequence of churches,you know, and what is discussed.
I mean, again, there'stimeless aspects to it.
(18:52):
There's prophetic aspectsto it that touch all of us.
at the same time, thosewere real locations.
I mean, you can visit themtoday if you book a tour, right?
A Holy Land tour.
And, those places remnants.
And you have to think of a timewhere there's no local church, right?
(19:15):
You're not turning on the radioand listening to a preacher.
You're not going to, you know, going tothe local bookstore and, and you have like
35 versions of the viable to pick from.
you, you had an encounter.
That you cannot deny, and there's asmall group of people who've had the same
encounter and you congregate together.
(19:35):
That was Christianity at that time.
Nobody was walking in there with a Bibleunder their arm for Sunday morning church.
I mean, was, there was somethingthat was undeniable that they went
literally from the Kingdom of darkness.
In, in this pagan societyor if you were a Jew, right?
You have your, your mosaic context,but you had an encounter, you had an
(19:58):
experience, you have the Holy Spirit,and you're hanging, you're hanging
onto this, you know that this istrue and this is what you have, and
you are, you are facing heavy, heavyopposition from your countrymen.
Again, early church waspredominantly Jewish, right?
So your countrymen areadamantly per persecuting.
you Like you are in error.
(20:20):
are exactly the type of personthat Moses says we need a stone.
Like there's heavy opposition.
This is why Paul got stoned so many times.
Like they're just followingscripture and, you're like, Jesus,
like we know that you are true.
How long is this gonna last?
And so Jesus comes to thesepinnacle churches that were under
(20:42):
John's pastorate to bring both.
Correction and comfort, andwe think that, you know,
there's a level of intensity.
You're like, wow, Jesus.
You don't really feel like a, youknow, that tender shepherd right now
when you're talking to these churches,and I would suggest is, you know,
(21:04):
when the stakes are high, right?
let's say you take your kidshiking and you're, you've, you've
hit the ridge of the mount.
I'm, I'm, I'm near the Rocky Mountains.
If you're near the Appalachians, maybeyou have an understanding as well.
But when you hit that ridge, there'sparts along that ridge where it's,
it's like life or death on either side.
And so if your kids are followingyou and, and your their lives are on
(21:28):
the line, you're gonna turn aroundand be like, don't go that way.
We're not kidding around right now.
And it's like, wow, dad, you'rebeing really harsh and intense.
It's like, yeah, I, I, Ican see falling right now.
Like, not the time for tenderness.
Like this is real.
This is happening.
This is the narrow path right now.
(21:50):
And that's the intensity that Jesus has.
Why?
Because those people.
We're gonna witness theirwhole world turned upside down.
So the, the people that werepersecuting them were gonna fall by
the sword or be sold in a slave trade.
Right?
Very, very heavy stuff.
even in the Roman Empire, the RomanEmpire went through incredible
(22:12):
turmoil and ne nerom commit suicide.
There's three different coups ofdifferent people trying to vie for
power nations that were under the Roman.
started to rebel, right?
There was, there wassquames and stuff like that.
it just became
(22:32):
And literally it was theyear of chaos that happened.
It was called the yearof the four emperors.
And so you're living in those times andyou're like, it's the end of the world.
What's, what's gonna, and so Jesusis like, this is the path forward.
And so he
Tim Winders (22:47):
Mm.
Leo De Siqueira (22:47):
Because of the intensity, what's gonna be going on around you?
Tim Winders (22:51):
We also know there was quite a bit of turmoil within Jerusalem and
within the leadership of Israel, correct?
I mean, weren't there coups andall type stuff going on there?
So there was a shaking,I'll use that word.
Leo De Siqueira (23:03):
yeah.
Huge.
Tim Winders (23:04):
of the end of days that we look back and go, oh
no, it wasn't the end of days.
No.
If we were there, we would have felt it.
So, do you believe that the churcheswere literal or symbolic or Both.
Leo De Siqueira (23:21):
Both
Tim Winders (23:22):
Okay.
Good.
Leo De Siqueira (23:23):
percent both.
Tim Winders (23:24):
Okay.
Leo De Siqueira (23:24):
there were real, real congregations for sure.
Right.
We have early churchevidence for that as well.
and we have early churchfathers that succeeded John and
the pastor of those churches.
Right.
So we have a lot of earlychurch evidence for that.
But there were also, they're symbolic.
Tim Winders (23:41):
Yeah.
Leo De Siqueira (23:42):
I find comfort in reading through what Jesus says to those churches.
Even today.
Tim Winders (23:48):
Right.
Leo De Siqueira (23:49):
many who would be listening right now do as well.
Tim Winders (23:52):
Yeah, in the last episode we talked about the dating of Revelation,
and I'll let people go back and listento that, but one of the things that
you see in Revelation is some veryclear, I don't wanna say timing and,
and I know we have to be careful aboutliteral versus symbolic, but in both
the beginning and the end, there is a.
(24:14):
This is soon.
This is going to happen soon.
maybe you have some insight intothe Aramaic if it's different, but
was there the thought that thiswas going to happen 2000 years from
now, or was it going to be soon?
What?
Tell me what soon means.
Leo De Siqueira (24:32):
Yeah, I mean there's seven time posts mentioned, and
all relating to the urgency, right?
So this is about to take place,this is about to take place.
This is about to take place, you know,so whether you wanna translate it as
soon or quickly or swiftly, none of thosewords mean long distant delay, right?
(24:53):
So it's really nuances, but.
can't escape the fact that thereis an immediacy and an urgency.
And, you know, the envelope ofrevelation is that it begins and
ends with pastoral exhortation.
So there's the pastoral, likeit's, now it's happening, and then
(25:13):
in the middle is like, here's theprophetic significance of why.
And that's the middle of Revelation.
That's the core.
So on both sides, there's theimmediate boots in the ground
like, I see you, I'm with you.
I know you.
(25:34):
Right?
Jesus talking to his church at that time.
then at the core of Revelation isthis is the prophetic explanation
of what you are about to see.
Tim Winders (25:47):
Hmm.
It's interesting to me how peoplewill say that Jesus, in what he said
in Matthew 24, was symbolic, but inthe same breath, they will say that
revelation verse by verse is literal.
(26:07):
What would you say to someone thatis going to attempt to take verse
by verse by verse in Revelation andliterally attempt to interpret that?
Leo De Siqueira (26:20):
Yeah.
You know there there's two things.
Two critical flaws.
So first of all, we've inherited, know,ever since the scientific revolution,
people decided to take ascientific approach to the Bible.
So the Bible, if you look atchurch history, always embraced as
(26:41):
a corpus, a corpus of scripture.
Jesus embraced the Old Testamentas a corpus of scripture
because on the Emmaus Road walk.
It, it says like, fromMoses of the prophets.
He showed how he was revealed in that.
And then all of a sudden we got into thismindset of dissecting verse by verse.
(27:02):
So we've already missedit in, in our approach.
Scientific revolution destroyed, biblicalscholarship, and that's the first flaw.
So we have to understand how ourfathers those who went before us
actually approached scripture.
Going all the way back toJesus, Jewish sages as well,
(27:23):
have that outlook on the Bible.
And the second thingis, we don't understand
the law of Moses.
We don't understand the lawand the prophets nearly enough,
and we don't understand firstcentury history nearly enough.
(27:45):
You can't talk about the book ofRevelation without having at least a
decent grasp of the law and the prophets.
A lot of my footnoting to try tofast track the reader's baseline
understanding in order to comprehend.
In other words, I'm a firstcentury Jew from John instructions.
(28:10):
What would I have knownas a first century Jew?
That's the gap that we must fillif we're to approach that book.
Tim Winders (28:20):
Hmm.
Okay.
So
Leo De Siqueira (28:24):
it around you.
You take
Tim Winders (28:26):
yeah.
Leo De Siqueira (28:26):
century Jew and show 'em an Instagram feed,
they're, they're gonna be,what the heck is going on here?
So what context would they need tounderstand what we take for granted?
You're flipping through your feed.
There's technology references,there's government references, right?
(28:46):
There's political stuff going on.
There's new cultural norms, like wheredo you even begin to contextualize
somebody so that they can understandwhat you take for granted?
It's very simple, so you justflip it around and you're
like, oh yeah, you know what?
I have to recreate an entire world.
In my mind to then understandhow that person might have
(29:08):
received this information.
Tim Winders (29:10):
And, I think it's so dang arrogant.
this was my experience in Bible school.
Gosh, I love them.
I really do love Christians.
I'm critical of them at times,so I wanna qualify that.
I really do love Christians, but hangingout with them in the environment I was
in, I really was getting frustratedwith the plucking of a scripture.
(29:31):
To attempt to apply it to somethingpolitically or in our world today.
I do believe we can learnfrom it and glean from it.
We have to, but without anycontext of the overall biblical
narrative or the biblical story.
And that's one of the things Ithink that's been driving me.
I believe we're going to get into thata little bit in our final episode,
(29:52):
but what I'd love to do now, Leo,I think this is a hangup for a lot
of people, and that is some thingsthat they have had drilled into them.
Brainwashed would be anothergood word that are biblical, that
are in Revelation that exist.
I know that you're a deeper thinker and Iknow that from your writing and from our
(30:14):
talking, you like to expound on things.
But I think to wrap up this episode,I would almost like to do some rapid
fire questions about some hot topics.
That nag at people every time webring this topic up, because they've
been taught it over and over again.
You know how Lindsey Little Lake, greatPlanet Earth, one of the most widely
(30:37):
sold books, they've seen it in that theythought that Henry Kissinger was the
Antichrist or Bill Clinton or whatever.
They read all the leftbehind books like I did.
Sorry about that.
But, but let, let's hit some topics.
I know you go, you go throughRevelation in your books, and so for
people that want something that goesthrough, that's what the books are for.
(31:00):
But let's hit some things real quick.
Where in the Bible or Revelation willwe find the description of the rapture?
Leo De Siqueira (31:10):
You won't there.
Tim Winders (31:14):
What?
Okay.
How about other parts of the Bible?
Maybe not Revelation, maybe Thessalonians,there's a scripture somewhere in Thesal.
I'm being sarcastic for thosethat can't pick up on it.
Where?
Come on now.
I've built my whole
world around that.
I'm gonna escape from all of this stuff.
Leo De Siqueira (31:33):
yeah, yeah.
First Thessalonians talkabout being caught up.
Right.
And, and the coming, coming ofour Lord and isolating that verse
and just, you know, stoppingthere is, is what took place.
Right.
And again, in ignorance because it,again, it's the corpus of scripture,
(31:57):
not the isolation of verses.
I mean, one verse doctrines area cancer to the body of Christ.
and they're so prevalent.
What, that, what Paul is talking about.
And again, go read 1st Corinthians15, which Paul also wrote, which I
will call perfect ex eschatology.
By the way, If you want a Cole's Notesversion of the book of Revelation or,
(32:21):
or End Times or anything like that.
Just read first Corinthians 15.
That one chapter sums it all up.
It's fascinating.
So what Paul talks is talking aboutis being caught up in the air.
To not then continue to float away.
Now we're now we're adding stuff in.
(32:42):
He's talking about, he says to receive ourLord, we're actually ushering in the king.
So this, the symbol of beingcaught up is so as to receive.
In the same way that in, in ancient timesacross almost every culture, if your
king returned from battle victorious,by the way, or if your king returned
(33:08):
from a long journey, the people ofthat kingdom would come out of their
gates in adoration, in admiration, andcelebration to receive back their king.
That is the image that we have.
Look at Revelation 21.
(33:33):
The new Jerusalem comes down fromheaven to the renewed earth as a
bride adorned for her bridegroom.
the bridegroom?
Jesus.
So where is the consummationof matrimony taking place?
(33:54):
It's right there in the book.
on the ground that you're standing on, butrenewed, made new like in Genesis two, and
three before the fall, Eden restored here.
and Earth won.
So first the Thessalonians in isolation.
(34:15):
You can deduct whatever you want,that's ignorance because you're
missing the corpus of scripture, right?
One Corinthians 15 talks about the greatresurrection and receiving earth suits,
Paul's like, Hey, you know how Jesusreceived this new body when he was raised?
He could like eat fish and walkthrough walls and disappear from plain
(34:38):
sight, but they could also touch him.
And the holes were there.
That body, we're getting that bodythe great resurrection takes place.
Why?
Because we're gonna be in a realmwhere heaven and earth are one.
Powerful, powerful, Stu.
It's in the book.
You just gotta read it.
Tim Winders (34:57):
Yeah, we'll look at that more too.
'cause that's that.
Leo De Siqueira (35:01):
That's to
Tim Winders (35:01):
That's that.
What's coming and what's next?
We'll look at here.
All right.
Couple other things.
the beast.
6, 6, 6,
Leo De Siqueira (35:09):
Yeah.
Tim Winders (35:09):
the beast where, what's up with the beast?
Leo De Siqueira (35:12):
Yeah.
so there's two wild animals.
That's what the, that's what the word is.
Two, two wild animals.
one's a leopard, one's a ram.
they're not Godzilla,
unfortunately.
It's, it's, you just gotta read the woods.
You know?
(35:32):
It's, it's just
Tim Winders (35:33):
That'd be kind Cool though.
Leo De Siqueira (35:34):
funky
Tim Winders (35:34):
I visual.
I.
Leo De Siqueira (35:37):
A funky looking leopard and a, funky looking bighorn sheep.
it's what they represent that matters,the leopard representing Rome and I talk
about it at length in, book number three.
'cause that's chapter 13 of Revelation.
6, 6, 6.
the first beast is Rome.
Second beast is Apostate Israel.
(35:59):
very key to understandbeasts in Revelation 13.
Rome, apostate, Israel.
6, 6, 6.
emphatically, neuro, using Hebrew letters.
As numerical values,which is very commonplace.
And to even take that a step further,um, some, if you've ever done a really
(36:20):
deep dive in 6, 6, 6, you've comeacross the 6 1 6 variant as well.
there's some very early Copticwritings and these were like Egyptian
Christians, they wrote 6 1 6.
Why?
Because in Coptic language, neuro, valuesin their translation worked out to 6 1 6.
(36:41):
there's no way of escaping thefact that this was pointing
to a very specific person.
Tim Winders (36:47):
Hmm.
Okay.
Gosh, let me think real quick here.
The two witnesses that peopletalk about and try to project into
future, what can you tell us justbriefly about the two witnesses?
Leo De Siqueira (37:01):
Moses and Elijah Law on the Prophets law.
On the prophets testify there.
it's what was written therethat is coming to pass the
Tim Winders (37:11):
Right.
Leo De Siqueira (37:11):
of
breach of covenant.
Tim Winders (37:14):
Okay.
Um, to sarcasm alert here, let me justgo ahead and preface where in Revelation
does it talk about the rebuilding ofthe temple, finding the red heifers,
getting everything together so that thetemple can be rebuilt, so that we could
prepare for the next coming and all,and the nation of Israel being restored.
Leo De Siqueira (37:38):
no more, and in, in,
Tim Winders (37:41):
On Leo.
Leo De Siqueira (37:42):
in fact, you know, I, I'll, I'll be perhaps even crass
enough to say that, you know, you're,you're getting, you're, you're
almost tinkering with like, you know,
a opposing the gospel at this point.
I don't know how you canread the book of Hebrews.
(38:04):
And then think that there's gonnabe a rebuilding of a temple.
Like it, it's the, the ignorance requiredto be seduced into that worldview, right?
Is like you're dismissing
sections of the New Testament to supporta doctrine that is inconsequential.
(38:29):
To God's story and what he meansto accomplish with humanity.
Inconsequential.
It is astounding how many peoplehave bought into that in ignorance.
they might be well-meaningthey are tragically deceived.
Tim Winders (38:50):
Yeah, it's very discouraging.
For me to hear that there areChristian groups and churches,
well-known ministers that are raisingmoney right now to contribute to a
temple being rebuilt in Jerusalem.
I'm just going, what arethey teaching, preaching?
it does make for keepingpeople coming back every week.
Leo De Siqueira (39:12):
Yeah.
Tim Winders (39:12):
you know, some of the messages that we're speaking about here,
I don't wanna say it's one and done.
We could keep talking about it, butit doesn't create something exciting.
Every time there's an event thatoccurs in the world, it's established.
one last thing on this episode I havein my mind, I don't know if I've been
oversimplifying it, but this will kindof prep us for our final episode that I
(39:35):
believe we have time to get in, beforewe're finished our time together today,
I have been looking at the first 19chapters of Revelation as being roughly.
Already occurred or occurred inand around that 80, 70 time period.
(39:56):
I think a lot of people are too.
Leo De Siqueira (39:58):
Mm-hmm.
Tim Winders (39:58):
Is that somewhat accurate?
And we're gonna look at 2021 and 22 inthis next episode, but talk to me about
that as we finish up this episode two.
Leo De Siqueira (40:08):
Yeah.
the first few verses of Revelation 20,were fulfilled in that seven 80 D event.
Yeah,
Tim Winders (40:16):
Yeah, and it really helps to look at that and we didn't talk
about the storytelling and the code.
I think that maybe John May have writtenit in, but I think just knowing that
those first 19 chapters occurred.
Leo De Siqueira (40:30):
Yeah,
Tim Winders (40:31):
Around 80, 70 really kind of helps people with their understanding.
Would you agree with that?
Leo De Siqueira (40:38):
A hundred percent.
I mean, put yourself in the shoesof a, of one of the handful of
Gentiles that would've convertedright in the first century.
And you're reading Book of Revelation.
I mean, you've not studied the law, right?
you don't, you're not familiarwith the culture revelation's
just gibberish before you, right.
Tim Winders (40:56):
Yeah.
Leo De Siqueira (40:57):
Revelation is simply every verse almost.
from Revelation five onward isjust hyperlinking some sort of
prophecy, some sort of event,some sort of Old Testament theme.
if you had a mouse, you'd bescrolling over the verses and it
would just be giving you scriptureverses scripture verse like, it's,
(41:23):
there's hundreds, hundreds.
Of Old Testament references as youread through, chapters five to 19.
So how could you have expected somebodywas not a Jew outside of the law to be
able to understand what was happening?
(41:43):
Meanwhile, somebody who was broughtup in that culture and environment
would've immediately picked up onthe illusions in the illustrations.
Like the Song of Moses makes no sense to.
Somebody in Rome, right?
A first century Roman in Rome.
What does he care about?
The Song of Moses.
But as a Jew, I know that the song ofMoses was a prophecy that God gave to
(42:06):
Moses, saying, when the time comes inthe future, when this people group goes
astray and the curses of the law come topass, you will sing this song, or they
will sing this song, and then God givesMoses this song basically saying like,
this is why this is happening to us.
That's right in book of Revelation.
(42:29):
So that's only gonna make sense forsomebody who grew up in that environment.
'cause they're gonna be like, andthen the song of Moses was sung.
It's like, oh my goodness, thecalamities of Deuteronomy are happening.
Right?
It, it's like immediately youunderstand if you knew the context.
Tim Winders (42:52):
That's good.
Well, we busted up a fewthings here by, throwing.
In that rapture out and no red heifers.
I hate to disappoint people.
We'll see if that's gonnastill have people listening in.
But here's what we're gonna do.
We're gonna stop now and nexttime what Leo and I are gonna do.
(43:12):
'cause I, gosh, we had a conversationa while back and I love where
he goes, especially with histhird book, Dawn of Eternity.
I'll go ahead and share with you atthe early part of this next episode
how it nest with me a little bit.
But we'll look at things like themillennium, the Dragon, Satan's short
time, and possibly what the futureholds based on scripture, not based on.
(43:37):
Fake timelines and different thingslike that, maybe the most important
conversation about how we live today.
Leo, I appreciate you.
This has been awesome.
thanks for joining us here at Seek GoCreate for this episode two and make
sure you come back for episode three,which is kind of a, where are we now?
The final vision in thatshort time of Satan.
(44:00):
Until next time, thanks forjoining us on Seek Go Create.
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