What if building true wealth had nothing to do with Wall Street or a traditional 401(k)? In this episode of Seek Go Create, host Tim Winders sits down with Joey Muré, co-founder of Wealth Without Wall Street, to challenge the status quo of financial freedom. Joey shares how his background in faith and business shaped his radical approach to money, stewardship, and legacy—plus why cash flow (not simply saving) is the real secret to wealth. If you’ve ever wondered how to take control of your financial future and align your money with your values, this conversation is for you!
"It's not about having more money—it's about seeing money as a tool to be abundant with others, within your family, within your community, within your church." - Joey Muré
Access all show and episode resources HERE
About Our Guest:
Joey Muré is the founder and partner at Wealth Without Wall Street, and a leading voice in helping individuals achieve financial freedom outside of traditional investment systems. With more than a decade of experience in the mortgage industry and a strong commitment to faith-driven leadership, Joey blends financial insights with purposeful guidance to empower others to take control of their wealth. Known for his expertise in passive income and stewardship, Joey has built a community and platform dedicated to challenging the status quo, prioritizing impact, integrity, and generosity in both business and life.
Reasons to Listen:
- Discover Wealth-Building Beyond Wall Street: Joey Muré breaks down why the traditional savings and 401(k) approach actually holds you back from financial freedom and introduces the concept of taking true ownership over your money.
- Faith, Stewardship, and Money Myths Debunked: Hear how Joey’s personal journey—and his experience growing up in a faith-based home—shaped his bold perspective on wealth, generosity, and the misunderstood relationship between faith and finances.
- Real Passive Income Strategies, Unfiltered: Get an inside look at the practical systems Joey uses to generate tens of thousands in monthly passive income—including the pitfalls, the wins, and why authenticity matters more than empty “thought leadership.”
Episode Resources & Action Steps:
Resources Mentioned in This Episode:
- Wealth Without Wall Street Website & Community - Special listener page: wealthwithoutwallstreet.com/seekgocreate - This page offers access to their community, resources, and direct ways to connect.
- Book: "Become Your Own Banker" by Nelson Nash - This foundational book introduced the infinite banking concept and inspired much of the Wealth Without Wall Street approach.
- Wealth Without Wall Street Podcast & YouTube Channel - Regular episodes and interviews on creating financial freedom, passive income, and alternative wealth-building strategies outside of traditional Wall Street approaches.
Action Steps for Listeners:
- Assess Your Financial Goals and Cash Flow - Re-evaluate where your money is going each month and whether your current strategy (e.g., 401(k), savings, IRAs) aligns with your goal of achieving financial freedom, not just retirement.
- Explore Your Investor DNA - Take the Investor DNA Profile at Wealth Without Wall Street to discover which passive income strategy best matches your personality, resources, and...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
there's not a good example ofsomebody that just saves money in a
savings vehicle that gets wealthy.
At best, they're going to keepup with inflation at worst,
like a checking account or, youknow, even a savings account.
They're losing ground asit relates to inflation.
So it's like termites in your money.
(00:21):
It's not actually goingto help you get to wealth.
True wealth is through cash flow.
And so I always have to take whatever thesavings dollars I have and put it to work.
(00:44):
What would your life look like if youstopped trusting Wall Street and started
building wealth on your own terms?
On today's episode of Seek GoCreate the leadership journey.
We're joined by Joey Muray, founder andpartner at Wealth Without Wall Street.
Joey is a faith-driven entrepreneur witha mission to help people gain financial
freedom while living with purpose.
(01:05):
With a background in mortgagesand a passion for relational
leadership, Joey brings a powerfulblend of impact, integrity, and
generosity to everything he does.
Get ready for a conversation thatchallenges the status quo and offers
a fresh perspective on leading,giving, and building lasting legacy.
Joey, welcome to Seat.
(01:26):
Go create.
Oh, Tim, so glad to be here with you.
This is gonna be an awesome time.
that you're here too.
I'm always, excited to talk to peoplethat are from the south because
we shouldn't need a translator.
But you don't have an accent.
You're not from there, are you?
I am from the south originally, I wasactually born in the South, but my
parents were both from Buffalo, New York.
(01:48):
So I think there's just this kindof tension always in my, my accent.
So that's, that's where that comes from.
Yeah.
you need a nickname likeBubba or something, don't you?
Well, it's Italian, so I'm the Italianstallion is my nickname on the podcast.
there you go.
No Bubba here.
Oh, very good.
So, first big questionthen we're gonna dive in.
(02:08):
I like to go into the deepend pretty quick, but any.
Time I'm interactingwith people from Alabama.
I've got to ask the question,Alabama or Auburn, do you have
a flag for one of those or.
When I moved here in high school, Ihad so many people put me on the spot
with this you for Alabama Auburn Boy.
(02:31):
And I just, I'm, I'm the kind, like,if you push me too hard, I'm just gonna
say neither one, I'm not gonna go freeeither one of 'em 'cause that's crazy.
But this place is the collegefootball hub of the world.
I remember years ago I was in aclient's office and he was showing
me, he worked for one of the big cablecompanies and they were just getting.
(02:54):
Like the college football channelor whatever it was, it was some
big deal around college football.
And he said, man, I'm justreally stressed out right now.
I mean, we just got the wordthat we got, we are, we're
getting rights to this channel.
And I was like, okay, wellwhy is that such a big deal?
he showed me a heat map of thenation and Birmingham, Alabama.
(03:16):
Was this just.
Hot red center compared to allthe other places in the country.
And I thought, oh, okay.
I get it.
That's why people are so crazy here.
So anyway,
it is pretty, amazing.
We, that's not the purposeof our talk here though.
That's just other stuff.
So, Joey, I'm curious if,
if
were to ask you, which questionwould you prefer, this is kinda
(03:39):
like my get started question.
Would you prefer to ask the question?
What, answer the question, what do you do?
Or who are you, which would you prefer?
And go ahead and start answering
You know, what I would say, whatdo I do is easier because it's
simpler to, you know, just ingeneral conversation, what we do.
(04:01):
And what I do is, and I'm driven.
To impact the world.
And I guess this is kind of both, right?
It's who am I and what we do.
I'm driven to impact the world somuch that when I was in the mortgage
business, for 11 years, I gotcompelled by this concept that we now
(04:22):
teach at Wealth Without Wall Street.
So much so that I was at a conferenceand I was just like, wow, why do
more people not understand thisidea of taking and stewarding wealth
as, an owner, not as somebody whoabdicates that to somebody else?
(04:44):
And it was almost, it wasone of these rare occasions.
I'll go ahead and say that I feltlike God put his thumb in my back
and said, why don't you do it?
And I thought, oh, well, becausemy wife is pregnant with our fourth
daughter, we have five, but atthe time was our fourth daughter.
(05:04):
She doesn't have a job.
I'm the sole provider.
I'm making over $300,000 a year.
I'm comfortable in the mortgage business.
Those are the reasons why Iwouldn't risk it all and go, you
know, try to teach people this.
But man, it was so compelling that Isaid, people need to know this system.
They need to know what the importance isof not abdicating the responsibility for
(05:27):
your finances that God's entrusted you.
And then how to then turnthat into financial freedom.
So that's what we do.
We're about freedom and it startswith spiritual freedom, but then
it leads to financial freedom andall that comes along with that.
that, that's good.
I mean, anytime peoplemake statements like.
(05:49):
I want to impact the world.
I have these two things that go throughmy head, Joey, so I'm gonna share
'em and I'm gonna let you respond.
First thing is usually aWow, that's pretty awesome.
I want to know more, whichis part of my question.
And then the second thing that goesthrough my head is impact the world.
(06:12):
You're right.
Come on.
You know, kind of this, really that'swhat it is, because I think I've
had similar things in, in my head.
Has that kind of always been on your mind?
I mean, like going back to, youknow, kid on the playground or
when did that crystallize for you?
You know, I would say in collegeI was very much impacted by a
(06:35):
ministry called Campus Outreach.
And I'm not certain ifeverybody's familiar with 'em.
They're mostly.
in the southeast, on collegecampuses and mostly smaller
campuses, although they're definitelygrowing into bigger schools now.
But there was the concept ofdiscipleship that was taught to me
that man, Jesus impacted the world byliterally spending time with 12 people.
(07:02):
And those 12 people he didn'teven spend all of his time with.
He really focused on three, but justfrom those relationships in three years
of ministry, there's a reason that youand I are talking about him today, and
we're not in Jerusalem, like you're inArizona and you're all over the country,
but I'm in Alabama and I am impacted bywhat happened over 2000 years ago with
(07:28):
Jesus affecting three people or 12 people.
How can I impact the world?
Well, I can do that here.
Wherever I'm at, I can spend time withpeople and pour into their lives that
then they can continue to do that.
I now get the opportunity through thismedia, right, through a podcast, there are
people, there are thousands of people thatlisten to our show all over the world.
(07:51):
And so for me, I didn't necessarilyknow how, but I knew that that was
always a drive since I got reallyimpacted with that idea of discipleship.
you know, there's some words I'mgonna bring three concepts together
and then ask you some questions.
I believe that people of faith
I.
(08:11):
have at times different thoughtsabout money or wealth and, and
sometimes they're not good.
And correct and biblicaland the right thoughts.
So we, we will kind ofhave that as a foundation.
But then I love the word lovethat your word brought up the word
discipleship because I think thatthat's what we're really lacking a
(08:37):
great deal of in the kingdom of God.
I think it's really somethingthat we have a lot of people maybe
saying things, but not people mayspending time and discipling and
walking people through things.
So, three things.
People of faith, the challenges orissues that they have with money,
and then kind holding someone's handand discipling and working with them.
(08:59):
I believe that you guys are working onall three of those and, and I think you've
got a community, you've got podcast.
I think podcast is a good portionof it, but to me, community coaching
and different things like thatis like one next level thing.
So I, I guess I'm just kind ofthrowing three words at you.
Faith.
Money or wealth and discipleship,and I'm, discipleship.
(09:22):
I'm just gonna let you
respond.
Sure.
Well, I'll just tell you, I'll kindof sum it up in to those three.
So one, faith, we don't have any sort ofa statement on our website that says you
have to be a Christian to engage withus or that we are going to share our
faith with you when you engage with us.
(09:43):
But I can tell you there'sbeen numerous opportunities.
For people to engage with us thatmaybe would've never stepped foot in
a church, that now they're thinkingdifferently and asking questions.
And we've even seen somepeople come to faith.
One of the guys that works for me rightnow became a Christian because he brought
(10:04):
up a very simple, question one time.
He was sharing his story andtelling us about what happened.
He said, well, I know youand Russ are religious.
And I was like, no, we're not.
We're not religious at all.
And he said, what, whatare you talking about?
I said, we have a relationship withChrist, but if you think religion is
gonna save anybody, you're sadly mistaken.
(10:27):
In fact, I learned these things.
I'd love to share 'emwith you at some point.
And if you wanna do that.
So we just engaged in a Bible study Hebecame a Christian through that process.
And so, yes, faith is super important.
It's not something that we requireof anybody to engage with us,
but it's super important and it'sthe foundation for how we think.
And I would say that that leads into,stewardship, which is how the church, how
(10:53):
the world thinks about money, what driveseverything in our mind is stewardship.
That you are not the owner of anything,but that God is the owner and he entrusts
to you All of life's resources thatyou've been given, including your time,
including your body, including yourmoney, including your relationships,
(11:17):
your experiences, all these thingsare things God's entrusted to you.
And we have not only arequirement, but a privilege.
To be able to steward those thingsin a way that reflects God's glory.
And the biggest challenge we hearfrom people of faith, people in the
(11:38):
church, outside of the church, isthat they have a really bad idea
that money is the root of all evil.
Money has all these negative connotations.
Like, oh, well, even, you know, the richare, it's impossible for a rich man to
enter the, the, the kingdom of heaven likea camel going through the eye of a needle.
(11:58):
There's so much context missingfrom those conversations, but it has
embedded in their minds a scarcityand almost like a fear, for money.
And so I find that the church is oneof the, like most, Atrophied or like
really struggling to become abundant.
(12:22):
And, and you know, it's not just abouthaving more money that is abundant,
it's about seeing money as a tool to beabundant with others within your family,
within your community, within your church.
And I can dive into more conceptsaround that if you want, but
that to me is like a foundation.
(12:43):
And then the last thing on thediscipleship aspect, I would say what
drives me in what we do is to say, man,there are things that we've learned
about money and passive income andfinancial freedom that I want to model.
So there's a reason why Russand I share our personal passive
income report every month.
(13:05):
It's not because we're bragging, it'sbecause we want to model what's possible.
We show people our actual system thatwe use to perpetuate passive income.
Because it's a model.
It's just like Jesus modeled to thedisciples how to interact with people,
how to, share about the kingdom ofGod, how to engage with the lost.
(13:29):
All those things are models.
Well, we do that within our business.
We help people, we come alongside ina discipleship type process where we
coach people, they set the system up,and then they graduate into, how do I
get my first $500 of passive income?
Well, there's a 12 week processthat they are engaged with.
(13:51):
They have to apply and qualify and allthat, but they get in and they then
have a group that also has an individualcoach that's helping them to get there.
So it's, it's not perfect and I don't,I never wanna make a claim that.
It could be similar to Jesus's process,but it's based off of the principles
(14:12):
of what we've seen in that example.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah, that, that's really good.
And we may circle back, I do wanna lookat some practical things in just a few
minutes here, but there's somethingthat I, this is just a question that
I always have when I'm speaking of
speaking
someone with, that's in theseindustries I think, Joe, I'd like
(14:34):
to frame it in a couple of ways.
Number one, I'm curious aboutyour faith journey growing up.
You mentioned in college, you werearound, the organization there,
but I also would like to know yourrelationship with money growing up.
I think you mentioned you were inthe mortgage industry and maybe
we can chat about that briefly,but talk about your journey.
(14:55):
I mean, did you just kind of come outof the womb saying, yeah, I've got
a healthy relationship with money.
I don't, I don't think about it toomuch, but also don't ignore it, or was
there a journey involved with that?
What can you share
I'll say the reason why I'm so, kindof acutely aware of how the church has
just brutalized this whole concept isbecause I was a, I don't wanna say a
(15:18):
victim, but I was a result of that.
And it was, you know, I rememberconversations with my parents.
we grew up going to theSalvation Army Church.
My parents actually worked forthe Salvation Army for 40 years.
They just recently retired.
They never had money, and they alwaysspoke of it in a negative connotation.
(15:41):
Like those with money were notnecessarily serious about their faith.
those with money were almostlike sellouts in a sense because
oh, well they're the rich peopleand this and that and the other.
And I never, and so I kindof adopted those same things.
Money wasn't something I saw.
It wasn't something that I understood.
(16:03):
It wasn't something that Ireally ultimately wanted.
I equated somebody who's sold out forJesus is going into full-time ministry.
Somebody who's not, oh well they're inthe business world and you know, whatever.
That kind of thing had areally, really bad idea of that.
And then in college I was, faced with somebusinessmen that I met that were giving
(16:31):
and generous and proactive and very like,responsible and desiring to impact others
at a point that I'd never experienced.
And they had the means to do thingsthat were required to send people.
I started to see God's economy.
(16:54):
As not only people who are willingto go, but people who are called
to send and that God's economydoesn't work without the other one.
Like both of them are requiredfor the kingdom to go forth.
And so, I started to pursuegoing into full-time ministry
with that kind of understanding.
(17:15):
And God switched paths.
I literally was going and startingto raise support to become
a college kind of minister.
And doors just kept shuttingand shutting and shutting.
And it was just one of those weirdmoments where I was like, God, I thought
this is what you wanted me to do.
And he'd redirected me to the businessworld with this new kind of, passion to
(17:40):
say, I want to try to live so below mymeans that I can send with a passion.
I want people, when they talkto me about raising support.
I want to be like, how can I support you?
I want to be like, how can I trust theLord to increase what he's given me so
(18:01):
that I can pass it on, not so that Ican just keep increasing my lifestyle.
I want to keep increasingthe capacity to give.
And man, that was a drasticchange from how I grew up.
and again, I think it was justunderstanding the bible, understanding
what Jesus said about money and taking itin context versus the Christianese kind
(18:27):
of, cultural like view of these thingsthat were just quite frankly just wrong.
Yeah, and I wanna say this, this is notthrow our parents under the bus, talk
here, but they had scriptures to backup their thought process about money and
(18:47):
the context is extremely important tobring into when Jesus is saying things
about money and who is he speaking toand what are they doing at that time,
that would be a great conversation.
Let's don't go there.
but, and I'm always fascinated by this.
I cannot tell you, Joey, how manypeople that we've had here at Seek go
create that thought full-time ministry.
(19:10):
There were people of faith and theyfelt like they were called, that's
another Christianese word if you ask me.
They were called to go into theministry progression, you know, youth
pastor, assistant pastor, whatever.
And you know, the ultimate, whichis a missionary on foreign, you
know, foreign soil Somewhere.
(19:30):
And then they, and then when they leavethat they go through this, oh my gosh.
You know, they're gettingmessages from friends.
Oh, you're backsliding is everything okay?
but it sounds like thathappened with you early on.
Did you, were you, did you go intothe mortgage world immediately or were
there some other stops and starts along
the way?
Yeah, actually it was, it wasjust really the lord's kindness.
(19:51):
I was meeting with some of thosebusinessmen who I'd gotten connected
to, and I was just kind of lost andI was like, man, I really thought for
sure I was going into ministry andnow I'm trying to pivot and figure
out where in the business world I fit.
So I met with several of them andjust asked them, what do you do?
Like, how does, how does it work?
I, I just really haven't had experience.
(20:12):
And one of those guys was extremelystrong believer who owned his own mortgage
company, and he was just sitting withme and just telling me what he did.
And I thought, man, thatsounds really up my alley.
Like something I would reallyenjoy and I'd be gifted at.
And he said, you don't have anyexperience, so you, no, I don't
hire people without experience.
(20:33):
I'm like, what?
I mean, you just soldme on this whole idea.
I'm ready to go.
He's like, look.
Go find anywhere that will hire you,a bank, small bank, and just even
if they let you process mortgageloans, just to get your head
around how does it work and get theexperience, that's your first step.
Well, at the time I lived across thestreet from a bank, little tiny bank, and
(20:59):
I said, well, I'm gonna take his advice.
I walked across the street with my resumeand a plate of cookies and I sat with him.
I said, look, I just need to get someexperience in the mortgage business.
will you, will you hire me?
And the lady was so hungry that day, herstomach was growling in the interview.
And I was like, look, I,I brought some cookies.
(21:20):
You know, they're out there inthe lobby, like, help yourself.
and they thought that was thefunnest thing that anybody ever done.
So they hired me.
And when I say they hired me, they putme on a hundred percent commission and
said, go, go see what you can kill.
I made no money for like three months,but I got experience and started
(21:40):
to get my hands around it, and thenI went back to that original guy
and said, Hey, I did what you said.
I got experience.
Six months in.
He was like, okay, youcan come work for me now.
So you're off to the races now.
I think if I did my timeframes rightwhen I was looking at your background,
you were in the mortgage industry duringthat incredible awesome time of 2008.
(22:01):
we do not wanna spend much time onthat, but just gimme a little bit of
what, what, how did Joey do during that?
Did the Lord just lift you up andyou never had any pain or discomfort?
you notice how I was sort of jokingabout the lift you up, not total rapture,
which I'm not a huge proponent of, butjust lifted you up so that you didn't
(22:23):
have to go through that tribulationand then set you back down gently in
around 2011, 12, or was there another
story?
Well, you know what's super crazyis at the time I was working for
Wells Fargo and we serviced, theyserviced all of their loans and.
(22:43):
You know, 2008 hit and most peoplesee from the real estate person's
perspective how bad it was.
And if you ask me how manypurchase loans I was able to do
during that time, it was very few.
'cause people weren't goingand buying new houses.
But what they were doing is therates went from the sixes down into
(23:07):
the fours and all of a sudden Igot inundated with refinance loans.
People that I had done businesswith for 5, 6, 7 years at the time.
Now they needed to refinanceat a much lower rate.
And there were some government programseven that were allowing them to do it
without, you know, having to show asmuch income and all this kind of stuff.
(23:31):
I actually grew my income in mybusiness during that time because
we had so many people looking totake advantage of those lower rates.
So.
it was actually a blessing and most ofmy real estate friends struggled, but
in terms of the mortgage industry, itwas a great, actually time to be in.
(23:53):
Interesting.
Well, I'm one of those that wentfrom whatever, the palace to
homeless at all during that season.
So I actually appreciate stories likethat because sometimes we lump, every EMS
says, oh yeah, it was tough, tough, tough.
So
So I think that's awesome.
so this is my shift into,wealth without Wall Street.
(24:14):
I've got 1, 2, 3, 4, maybe fivebrowsers pulled up on my computer here.
And obviously you and yourpartner Russ, y'all have
have really
leaned into.
The wealth without Wall Street, message,because I see podcasts, I see YouTube,
(24:36):
I see books and, scan through, listenedto, looked at all of those, over the
last few days as I've been, you know,researching all things that are.
Joey, tell me about, I bet there wasa transition as you moved into that.
Tell me a little about the transition,and we're gonna be moving into, the
last good bit of time we have talkingabout what's wrong with Wall Street,
(25:01):
what do we need to be looking at,passive income, things like that.
So start it.
Tell me about how it kind of got started.
Wealth without Wall
Street.
well, I'll tell you the baseline ofour entire thing and the thing that
compelled me, to switch careers fromthe mortgage industry into what we do
now is, there was a book that I read in2009 that Russ actually shared with me.
(25:25):
We were friends fromchurch, that's how we met.
And he said, man, I'm gonna start sendingyou referrals as long as you understand
the concepts I'm teaching my clients.
It's called Become YourOwn Banker by Nelson Nash.
And as I read that book,it's only 88 pages.
Very small, big print,you know, easy read.
I was just shocked that this was thething I had always like, was looking
(25:50):
for, but didn't know what it was.
This was the mindset shift that tookme from blindly just keeping my head
down, working 50, 60 hours a week,putting money away into my 401k.
Into IRAs and just hopingfor retirement at someday.
(26:10):
And what he shared in that book wasthat I needed to take control of my
finances, And actually, Nelson Nashvillewas a strong believer before he passed.
I would say that it was becoming asteward of what God had given me and
not abdicating it to somebody else,which is what we've all been duped.
(26:34):
I say duped or encouraged or manipulatedto think that, man, you know what,
Tim, you're just not that smartwhen it comes to financial matters.
And you didn't go to school tobecome a financial planner or a
market analyst or what have you.
You just don't have time for that.
So you just give me all your money.
(26:56):
And I'll be the one to manage it for you.
Now, a manager in any other situationactually has ownership or requirement
or liability to what they're managing.
But in the financial world, wallStreet, they have no liability.
(27:19):
In fact, your accounts cango up or they can go down and
they will get paid regardless.
And they will encourage youthat, Hey, you know what, we
just can't control everything.
Like, you know, this is what happened.
The market did this, the market didthat, and you are literally stuck
(27:39):
on a rollercoaster at that point.
If the market goes up, you don't wannasell because what you're gonna miss out,
there's this FOMO of it could continueto go, you don't, if it goes down.
You don't wanna lock in your lossesand sell because now you're so far
behind, like what are you gonna do?
You've just really lost.
(28:00):
So you just continue this up and down, andWall Street profits with today's dollars
on your money every single month whereyou are putting your money into there
with the hope that it's enough when you're65, 70, whatever the case is, it is the
(28:24):
biggest scam that we have been told of alltime, and people willingly give that money
over to that system every single day.
What Wealth without Wall Street isall about was born outta this concept
called the infinite banking concept,which takes all of your cash flow,
(28:44):
puts it into your control, intoyour economy, and then it begs you.
To become an investor.
And that's really wherethis whole thing came.
We didn't know what to invest in.
Tim, I'm just being honest with you.
If you asked me in 2008, I would'vesaid, go buy like a piece of
real estate, a rental property.
That's about all I could think of.
(29:06):
But we started the podcast in 2017because we had all these clients
doing this infinite banking concept.
They had all this cash that theywere putting into their system
and it's a high cash value lifeinsurance kind of system of policies.
And they're sitting there, HeyJoey, Russ, what do we do with it?
And we're like, I don't know.
(29:28):
What do you think?
I mean, so we started interviewingpeople that are passive income, real
estate, online entrepreneurs, peoplethat could know what to do with capital.
And it was all off of Wall Street.
So thus the name Wealth WithoutWall Street controlling your
cash and the end result.
(29:49):
Being, when your passive income exceedsyour monthly expenses, you're now free.
I mean, as Tim is shaking,is nodding his head 'cause he
knows what we're talking about.
But as you listen to us, I want you tothink about your calendar right now.
You pull up your phone, Igot my phone right here.
(30:11):
You pull it up, you look at the calendar.
The question is, are the thingson your calendar dictated
by you or by somebody else?
Is it your business that is ownedyou, that you literally have no time
to do anything outside of becauseit's really dictating to you?
(30:31):
Or do you work for somebody else in a W2fashion that your majority of your life is
being owned and dictated by somebody else?
The financial freedom formula,when your passive income
exceeds your monthly expenses.
That means money that is at workon your behalf coming in monthly
(30:52):
exceeds what it costs you to live.
I then get to dictate what goeson the calendar, and that could be
exactly what God has created me to be.
I don't know what that is for you,but that is the end result that we're
trying to accomplish and everything wedo is centered around that very concept,
(31:15):
I am sure.
With a message.
Wealth without Wall Street, sinceWall Street is the norm or the
standard, or the propagandized,way, whatever term we want to use.
I think I might've shown my hand there.
Darn it.
I was trying to askthis in a different way.
(31:35):
it's what the masses believe.
Now it's interesting the massesdon't necessarily participate in
it, but they believe the headlines.
I can't pull my phone up, it's my camera.
But if I go to any financialheadline, they will be reporting
on, today, you know, recording thissometime in April, something that the
current president did that caused.
(31:56):
The market to go down 500, up 500,whatever you, but what are, what's
some of the pushback or arguments youget from people when you say that you
can create wealth without Wall Street?
Because
there's probably some that are goingthrough a few people's minds listening in.
Let's go ahead and hit a few of those.
And then I wanna talk about passiveincome in general before we get to
(32:17):
some specifics.
Sure.
So number one, people are, I'lljust use 4 0 1 Ks as an example.
They're like, Joey, I mean, I, you'retelling me not to put money in 4K.
Like, that's dumb.
I get free money for my employer.
I get a hundred percent match.
That's like a, it's free money.
(32:39):
It's a hundred percent return.
I don't have to pay tax on that money.
Right?
It's a tax deferred type of opportunity.
Why wouldn't I do that?
And, and here's the thingthat it comes down to,
if we're keeping score the sameway, if you truly do want financial
freedom today, okay, and I'm talkingto somebody who's 30 to 50 years old,
(33:03):
let's just say that that's the windowof time that we're talking about.
And you say, I wanna be financiallyfree today or as soon as possible,
then by putting money into a 401k,you are actually reducing your ability
to become free today because you're,you're purposely and voluntarily.
(33:24):
Putting money into something you can'ttouch until you're 59 and a half.
You say, okay, that makes sense.
But what about the, the match?
Does the match it the matches yourincentive, your enticement to put your
money away for the next 20 years, 30years, whatever, however old you are, is
(33:44):
that going to keep that, that could bekeeping you from what your actual goal is.
So if you, now if you are like,you know what Joey, I just
want to go towards retirement.
I don't want to think about it.
I just wanna be on autopilot.
This is not your message, right?
Because you just keepdoing what you're doing.
But for the person that says,you know what, he's right.
(34:08):
I want to spend time with my family today.
I want to be more activein my church family.
I want to be more, availablebecause life is owning me.
Then the answer is, Ihave to take back control.
I have to be in a position tobecome an investor, to buy back my
(34:29):
time by creating passive income.
So people push back on the four oneK until we have that conversation.
Because if your goal is differentthan mine, then we don't
have anything to talk about.
But if we have the same goal, then youhave to objectively agree no matter
what the internal rate of return is, nomatter what the tax benefit today is,
(34:51):
by the way, there is no tax benefit.
'cause 30 years from now, there's notelling what the taxes are going to be
when you actually start to pay them.
But if we're talking about financialfreedom, there is no denying that that
is the worst vehicle to get you there.
And so that's one thing.
And then I'd say the second thing ispeople just don't want to be different.
(35:12):
They want to be just like everybody else.
They want to stay safe, they wanna stay.
Comfortable in the herd.
And for that person, I can't help'em either, because you have to
be willing to do something thatno one else is doing to have the
results that no one else is having.
(35:33):
And if you're not willing to dothat, then you need to just kind of
reorient your expectations to not besurprised when you end up exactly in
the same place that everybody else is.
It's like somebody going to, you know,a really overweight personal trainer.
They've already proventhat that's the result.
(35:55):
Why would I go to them?
They don't have the resultthat I'm looking for.
But it's just the same as goingand following someone else.
Your, your, you know, your peers, yourfriends, your family who's telling you
all these things to do with your money.
And you look at their life and you say.
Actually, that doesn'treally match up for me.
(36:15):
I wanna do something different than them.
But yet you're doing the samethings as them with your money.
Those things do not coexist.
You cannot do that.
You have to have a reality checkand say, I need to go find a
different personal trainer.
I think what you saidearlier is pretty powerful.
I want to bring that back upagain, that we're not abdicating.
(36:40):
Someone doing something with our money.
They just don't wanna think aboutit, don't wanna talk about it.
They, you know, they don't have theconversations like we're having here.
I love talking about money.
I love talking about wealth.
You know, it's, I've neverhad an issue with it.
in fact, I might.
At times should talk about it less.
But, anyway, so, so I do think theysort of UI use the word abdicate it.
(37:01):
They shun it, they resist it,and I like the word stewardship.
We've used the word stewardship here.
We're on 300 plus episodes.
That word comes up quite a bit
And
really an understanding of.
The gifts, talents, you know, whateverthat God has given us, we steward over
those and I believe we have to give itback in a better condition than when we
(37:21):
received it as part of that stewardship.
Now, something that comes up though thatis, I think a stumbling block for people
is this, this passive income or passivemoney because we're programmed to go to
work, get paid, go to work, get paid.
(37:41):
and I actually at times can be cynicalabout passive income because some
of the hardest work I've ever doneis in the pursuit of passive income.
And, I'll bring this up from the book.
I think y'all have something calledthe PIOS Passive Income Operating
System, which to me, operating inpassive is a little bit of an oxymoron.
(38:01):
So I'm gonna call you out a littlebit and make you really talk about it.
But anyway, jumbo shrimp,passive operating anyway.
But, talk about, people that need toovercome the hurdle of no passive income.
You, you can't do that.
It's not a real thing.
And, you're always gonna have todo work for some type of financial
(38:23):
reward.
Yeah.
Well, so I'll just say, you know,spoiler alert, passive income
requires active engagement.
In order for it to ever be passive.
Okay?
So for instance, and this is where I thinkmost people get the bad idea, I can become
(38:44):
a poor investor by passively throwingmoney at things and not ever spending any
time in due diligence or understandingwhat it means to be an investor.
You have to put in the time, you haveto put in the energy, the effort to be
able to know what good looks like, okay?
(39:07):
Otherwise, the very first thingthat you look at is gonna look
fantastic, and it's a dog.
I'm just gonna tell you, youhaven't looked at 10 deals.
You looked at one and one looks amazing.
You look at 10, and that one may be theworst of the 10, but the reason that
you don't do it is because you didn'tget active as becoming an investor.
(39:31):
the second thing is whenever you areeven looking, let's say you've become
an investor and you are knowledgeableand understanding, when you are
looking at deals, you have to activelyengage in a due diligence process.
This is the stewardship aspect.
(39:51):
Hey, this pitch deck came by me,my office, and I look at it and
it looks good on the surface, butthere's some due diligence items.
Like who's the operator?
What's the asset type?
Does it fit my investor?
when does the capital actuallystart to come back to me?
Is it quick?
Is it three months?
Is it six months?
Is it 12 months?
(40:12):
Is there a stabilization period?
Is it geographically located in a placethat I want my money to be, stored up in?
Is it in like looking at themacroeconomics of the world?
Does it look like it's in aplace where it's gonna continue
to grow or is it shrinking backin terms of the market itself?
(40:34):
these are all things that, as aninvestor, you actively engage with that
opportunity before you passively invest.
And so to your point, passive incomedoes not mean uninvolved income.
You have to be an investor and youhave to take the time to not just
(40:55):
blindly throw money at something.
if you do, you'll become an investorby learning the lessons the hard way.
but it is a necessary step to become that.
Now to answer your passiveincome operating system.
The operating system is the active flowof cash in your economy, and most people
(41:15):
never get out of what you just said.
Get paid, pay the bills, get paid, paythe bills, get paid, pay the bills.
That's the rat race.
That's the rat race that we get stuck in.
The Passade operating system connectsa whole different side to that.
I get paid, I pay the bills, andthere's whatever's left over,
(41:37):
gets into the right hand side.
We call that the wealth, accelerator side.
And that's where we tie inthe infinite banking concept.
That's where we tie in this neverending compounding machine that is
passively growing for you, but it isall a part of the active, controlled
(41:57):
environment that you put your cashflow through so that it can create the
passive income that will then free you.
Good.
And we've already established earlier that
this is not necessarily easy.
It's not.
I think there's some simplification.
We're gonna talk about that herein our last bit of time together.
we're gonna simplify what that lookslike so someone can understand.
(42:19):
there are steps along the way that peoplehave to do a little extra, I think is the
way I heard it as we're going through it.
I think the first part, you just broughtit up actually, you said it at the
very beginning, is that you chose tolive below your means and have extra.
(42:40):
I actually think that alarge percentage we could.
Probably find the mathpretty easily of people.
This is a, we go all over, butlet's just talk about the us.
They are not living below their means.
They're not living at their means.
They're living above their means,which means this is gonna be a
(43:02):
tough conversation for them, right?
right.
I mean, because this is not somekind of magical, get rich quick, you
know, you snap your fingers and allof a sudden you're still gonna have
the same cars and the bills and thecredit card debt, and this is going
to magically get you outta that.
That's not the case.
I've actually been around a lot of peopleof faith that have that philosophy too, by
(43:27):
the way, um, that God's going to somehow,um, wipe everything out and all that.
So let's talk about, let's assume thatsomeone's listening in and they've got
some extra, and they're intrigued by this.
They've got extra money.
Let's say they're in that agebracket that you talked about
earlier, and they go, you know what?
(43:48):
I'd like to start creating this.
You called it a system, I'll call it abucket, that they wanna start putting
something into this bucket I've heard
life
I've heard contracts with life insurance.
I've heard.
Then I start investing.
Let's take just a few baby steps and walkpeople through the, the basics there.
So
(44:08):
sure.
How does it get started?
So the first thing is the passive incomeoperating system is getting your goals
aligned with what you do with cash.
If my goals are to become financiallyfree, to get my passive income
exceeding my monthly expenses.
I'm no longer gonna put moneyinto 4 0 1 Ks than IRAs.
(44:31):
I'm gonna stop the flow of money intothose vehicles, which means I now have
more money in my bank account at theend of the month, assuming I don't
allow my lifestyle to creep, right?
Number two, I'm gonna stop payingcash for everything that I do.
Cash is the most expensive way to payfor anything, and most people will
(44:55):
challenge me on this and say, well, Joey,I mean there's no cost to cash wrong.
There's opportunity cost thatyou never get a bill for.
What do I mean by that?
If I go and put a hundred thousand dollarsdown on a house that I'm going to then
use as a rental property or a second home,or what have you, whatever you wanna call
(45:16):
it, that a hundred thousand came from mybank account, which at that point doesn't
have any ability to earn another dollar.
Until I replace it back, right?
Nobody's gonna send you a bill thatsays, Hey, by the way, Tim, that a
hundred thousand could have earned$36,000 over the last eight years
(45:38):
or whatever the timeframe was.
But that's the reality ofwhat actually happened.
Now, why do we then use infinite bankingor these, whole life insurance policies
designed for cash value because they allowyou to not only store the capital, put
the money into these contracts, but thento borrow against them so that your money
(46:00):
always grows, never stops compounding.
So you never give up the opportunitycost, and you can repay it over time.
With these, there's loan provisionsand things we could probably get into
if you want to, but the reason wejust replace your checking account
with a better mousetrap, somethingthat gives you more of what you want
(46:21):
it to do and less of what you don't.
And then the third thing that peoplestop doing when they're really actively
trying to get to this place of,building financial freedom is they
stop paying off their debts as the onlydesign for what they do with money.
I love Dave Ramsey because he helpspeople who are living way above
(46:46):
their means get below their means.
He helps them psychologically to say, stopdoing stupid things and trying to keep
up with people that don't care about you.
I'm glad Dave is, but when it comes toabsolutely like, you know, the simplicity
of his deal is just pay off all debt.
All debt is bad, never get debt.
(47:07):
It's so bad.
Don't ever do it.
When you're trying to keep, tabs onthis financial freedom formula, you
have to be objective about when doyou pay off debt and when do you not?
It's just not this blanket.
Like if it's debt, you pay it off.
You say, man, I've accumulated $50,000and I have two choices to make.
(47:28):
I can either, again, 'cause I'mkeeping track of the formula, passive
income exceeding monthly expenses.
There's two sides to the coin,not just monthly expenses,
which would include debts.
And so I say if I have $50,000that I've accumulated in my
system, what do I do with it?
I can either go put it into a passiveasset, maybe it's a syndication, maybe
(47:54):
it's into a land flipping business,maybe it's into a private loan, whatever.
And let's just say that thatwould create $500 a month.
Or I can take 50,000 andI can pay off a car loan.
And let's just say that thecar loan was $350 a month.
If I'm keeping tabs on this formulaand I could either produce $500 a
(48:19):
month passive income or pay off $350a month for my car loan, which one
is actually getting me closer tomy goal to produce the 500 a month?
Right?
So although I could have paid off thecar, it actually would've taken me
backwards on my ultimate goal of passiveincome greater than monthly expenses.
(48:45):
Notice that I did not saywhat the interest rate was
because it doesn't matter.
It's about the cash flow, which one isgetting me closer to financial freedom.
And so if you can be objective aboutthat and keep that as your main focus.
Now you have a system that youare consistently using those
(49:07):
dollars at the highest levelto get you to your end result.
So that's kind of how the first stepthat people have to do is stop doing
certain things with money, start doingthings with money that really uplift
and encourage your actual end goal.
And we can talk about steps twoand three, but that's, that's
(49:29):
the number one thing in my mind.
Yeah.
And the big thing here is, if you'recoming against Dave Ramsey, you may
have some issues you have to deal withbecause we won't say he's the 13th
disciple, but some people think he is.
And,
and,
and,
and I've known people that have comeagainst Dave and it's like, Ooh.
And I pull for Dave and I agree ingeneral with the debt thing also.
(49:53):
but there, there is ways of leveraging.
so you've got this system thatI still think some people have a
difficult
wrapping their head around.
So I'm gonna get whole life policies,I've got contracts, and then from
those policies I'll borrow againstthe cash value so that I could
then go out and do other things.
(50:14):
I'm sure there's some people willsay, you know, I think I'm gonna
just get the policies and let it sit.
That.
That.
That is probably fine, but it's notreally maximizing what someone can
do.
Correct.
Well, think about it this way.
the policy is not an investment.
(50:34):
The policy is a replacementfor your savings vehicle.
So you tell me, if someone says, yeah,I'm just gonna let the policy ride and
that's gonna be my, you know, long-termdeal, well then the question would
be is how, how wealthy do you believepeople that just save money become?
(50:57):
There's not, there's not a good exampleof somebody that just saves money in
a savings vehicle that gets wealthy.
At best, they're going to keepup with inflation at worst,
like a checking account or, youknow, even a savings account.
They're losing ground asit relates to inflation.
So it's like termites in your money.
(51:19):
It's not actually goingto help you get to wealth.
True wealth is through cash flow.
And so I always have to take whatever thesavings dollars I have and put it to work.
Otherwise, I use the term it's lazy cash.
Lazy cash is not acceptable.
We have to keep it at work.
It has to be doing work whilewe're actively at work or creating
(51:44):
wealth, it has to be doing its job.
the policies just are thegreatest holding place.
Nelson Nash called itYour Warehouse for wealth.
And I think that's a perfectanalogy because what's a warehouse?
Do money come, things come into thewarehouse, things go out of the warehouse.
Things come into thewarehouse, things go out.
(52:04):
your policy or your system of policies hasto be always in flux, always being used.
It's not something to just be sittingthere, you know, picking up dust.
and so that's one thing we've really,really honed in on is the systematic
use, not just the, you know, thecul-de-sac, if you will, for your money.
(52:28):
Right, and that's where a lot ofthese, which I love these topics.
I mean, you guys have massive amountsof topics on your YouTube channel
and your podcast where you're reallyjust gathering, it sounds like you're
gathering information to try to findways of generating passive income because
you've got all of these mechanisms,these savings mechanisms in place that
(52:51):
people can then go out and do that.
There's one interesting thing thatyou do, and I think I heard it on the
podcast, I guess you probably do it onYouTube too, is that you and Russ will
state where you are currently at yourkey performance indicator of passive.
Income.
I want to ask you if you can saywhere that is here in spring.
(53:16):
We'll put a timestamp onthis episode, spring of 2025.
But before I do, I wanna ask, if yourparents are okay with you letting the
world know with the background you grew upin letting the world know how much money
you're making in your passive income.
Did they ever say anything to you
(53:37):
about that?
I'm curious.
You know what it is, it is somewhatof a concern that people are like,
wait a minute, you're puttingthis out on, front street here.
And my, answer to that, Tim, is wedon't want to be thought leaders.
I think the world ishungry for authenticity.
Like they need to know.
I. That you're not just talking aboutsomething, that you're actually doing it.
(54:01):
That there is actual actionbeing taken and that people
are eating their own cooking.
You know, that's how we sayit here in Alabama, right?
Eat your own cooking.
We, we want people to, we needto be results leaders, and it is
uncomfortable at times, but whatwe always lead with is this is not
(54:23):
a boastful like, Hey, look at us.
This is, Hey, this is what's working.
This is what's not working.
By the way, we share those arrows inthe back as well, and we've had some
pretty humbling moments on the podcastand on the YouTube channel, but at the
end of the day, it's to lead by example.
(54:44):
I, I told you thatinitially Jesus gave models.
This is a model that we can share withthe world to say, we built the system.
We became investors,not perfect investors.
In fact, we've lost a lot ofmoney and this is the result.
And if you want results similar, wecan show you the way that's, that's
(55:08):
ultimately what this is about.
we don't share our active income.
We share our passive income.
And, our whole job is to inspire,educate, empower, and expose
people to what's possible.
Yeah, I think I heard ranges30 5K to 50 and bouncing around
(55:28):
right is, I mean, those are
nice numbers.
Yeah.
It does not, it's not perfectlystable every single month because
certain things pay out in some months.
Certain pay don't pay out in others.
I mean, we have, lots of different areasthat we ra, you know, have money in.
I'll give you one quick example.
We have have three cars on Touro thatsomeone else operates, and last month
(55:54):
I showed a negative $900 because one ofthose cars came back with massive damage.
Two, two tires busted, or not busted,but the, the, the wheels were,
dented and a tire run in was busted.
It was just, they must have hit a curbor something and just didn't care, you
(56:16):
know, and there was also an alternatorthat went out, like there's maintenance
issues that go wrong, whereas the monthbefore it was like $2,700 just with those
three cars and I didn't do anything.
It was, I was not hands on at all.
So there's ups and downs witheach one of these things.
But on the whole, theyaverage around 50,000 a month.
(56:38):
And, we're constantly just trying tothink about what's the next thing or
what should we put more money into?
And, I think one of our biggestnegatives is that we are the ones
that interview all these people.
And so we wanna try 'em all, youknow, like we probably should
start to limit down our favorites.
what?
What's your
my favorite,
(56:58):
Yeah, I was gonna say, What'syour favorite one right now?
Yeah.
I think buying and selling rawLand on notes is my favorite.
if you haven't interviewed the landgeek.com, mark Podolski, he taught
us this method and he actuallyhas a team that runs our business.
We buy land for 20 to30 cents on the dollar.
(57:18):
We sell it to retail buyers on terms.
So I buy a property for 2,500, Isell it for 10,000, but the 10,000
may be a thousand dollars downand $300 a month for 30 months.
That's a perfect deal for us.
we just keep stacking 300, 300, 300,and that has, yielded over 30,000 a
(57:41):
month just in that one asset type.
I love it.
it's hard for that thing to gowrong because in any economy, people
are flooding to real assets likeland and we make it affordable
for people to be able to do it.
they're not making any more of it.
So it's really a great,stable asset class.
(58:02):
and it's fully run by an operator.
Who's an expert.
Yeah, that's good.
There's probably so many more.
I recommend people, I think I see abunch of 'em here over on the YouTube
channel and I'm sure the podcast.
So there's a lot ofresources you guys have.
I think, Joey, this would be a greattime to just share with the audience.
(58:24):
We'll include things down in the notes.
What's the best way for people to getin touch with you to get more info?
You know, you've got podcasts,you've got book, you've got
YouTube, where do you want
people to go to connect?
Well, I'll tell you, we made aspecific page just for your audience.
if you go to wealth wallstreet.com, slash seek, go create.
(58:45):
So wealth wall streete.com/seek go create.
our contact info's on there,our access to our community.
I think we have some otherfree resources there.
Love for you to connect with us andlet us know that you heard Tim and
I, having this, great conversationtoday so we know where you came from.
(59:05):
All right, last quick question.
One, quick tip.
We've covered a bunch, but likeyour quick rapid fire tip that
you could give before I wrap up
The one thing we didn't talkabout is becoming an investor.
it starts with knowing your investor, DNA,go and find your investor DNA profile.
(59:26):
We have a tool that you can engage withus on, and it tells you how does your
personality, how did God create you, tosee the world with your resources, your
experiences, your access to capital.
What out of about 16 differentpassive income strategies
line up the best with you?
(59:47):
Because you should just be doing thethings that have the highest ROI.
Do what?
Lines up with your personality andyou'll actually get, closer and faster
to financial freedom than anything else.
Excellent.
Yeah, I love that because everybody's gotdifferent mindset and I mean, there are
(01:00:07):
things that I'm comfortable with that youmay not be and et cetera, so I love that.
So we'll make sure to include all that.
Joey Muray, thank you so much.
Wealth without Wall Streetis all of their resources.
He gave a great link.
We'll include it down in the notesit's been a cool conversation.
I love it.
We've got new episodes every Monday.
I appreciate everybody joining in here.
Keep commenting, keep rating,all those cool things.
(01:00:30):
I greatly appreciate it.
thanks for joining us.
See you next week.
there's not a good example ofsomebody that just saves money in a
savings vehicle that gets wealthy.
At best, they're going to keepup with inflation at worst,
like a checking account or, youknow, even a savings account.
They're losing ground asit relates to inflation.
So it's like termites in your money.
(00:21):
It's not actually goingto help you get to wealth.
True wealth is through cash flow.
And so I always have to take whatever thesavings dollars I have and put it to work.
(00:44):
What would your life look like if youstopped trusting Wall Street and started
building wealth on your own terms?
On today's episode of Seek GoCreate the leadership journey.
We're joined by Joey Muray, founder andpartner at Wealth Without Wall Street.
Joey is a faith-driven entrepreneur witha mission to help people gain financial
freedom while living with purpose.
(01:05):
With a background in mortgagesand a passion for relational
leadership, Joey brings a powerfulblend of impact, integrity, and
generosity to everything he does.
Get ready for a conversation thatchallenges the status quo and offers
a fresh perspective on leading,giving, and building lasting legacy.
Joey, welcome to Seat.
(01:26):
Go create.
Oh, Tim, so glad to be here with you.
This is gonna be an awesome time.
that you're here too.
I'm always, excited to talk to peoplethat are from the south because
we shouldn't need a translator.
But you don't have an accent.
You're not from there, are you?
I am from the south originally, I wasactually born in the South, but my
parents were both from Buffalo, New York.
(01:48):
So I think there's just this kindof tension always in my, my accent.
So that's, that's where that comes from.
Yeah.
you need a nickname likeBubba or something, don't you?
Well, it's Italian, so I'm the Italianstallion is my nickname on the podcast.
there you go.
No Bubba here.
Oh, very good.
So, first big questionthen we're gonna dive in.
(02:08):
I like to go into the deepend pretty quick, but any.
Time I'm interactingwith people from Alabama.
I've got to ask the question,Alabama or Auburn, do you have
a flag for one of those or.
When I moved here in high school, Ihad so many people put me on the spot
with this you for Alabama Auburn Boy.
(02:31):
And I just, I'm, I'm the kind, like,if you push me too hard, I'm just gonna
say neither one, I'm not gonna go freeeither one of 'em 'cause that's crazy.
But this place is the collegefootball hub of the world.
I remember years ago I was in aclient's office and he was showing
me, he worked for one of the big cablecompanies and they were just getting.
(02:54):
Like the college football channelor whatever it was, it was some
big deal around college football.
And he said, man, I'm justreally stressed out right now.
I mean, we just got the wordthat we got, we are, we're
getting rights to this channel.
And I was like, okay, wellwhy is that such a big deal?
he showed me a heat map of thenation and Birmingham, Alabama.
(03:16):
Was this just.
Hot red center compared to allthe other places in the country.
And I thought, oh, okay.
I get it.
That's why people are so crazy here.
So anyway,
it is pretty, amazing.
We, that's not the purposeof our talk here though.
That's just other stuff.
So, Joey, I'm curious if,
if
were to ask you, which questionwould you prefer, this is kinda
(03:39):
like my get started question.
Would you prefer to ask the question?
What, answer the question, what do you do?
Or who are you, which would you prefer?
And go ahead and start answering
You know, what I would say, whatdo I do is easier because it's
simpler to, you know, just ingeneral conversation, what we do.
(04:01):
And what I do is, and I'm driven.
To impact the world.
And I guess this is kind of both, right?
It's who am I and what we do.
I'm driven to impact the world somuch that when I was in the mortgage
business, for 11 years, I gotcompelled by this concept that we now
(04:22):
teach at Wealth Without Wall Street.
So much so that I was at a conferenceand I was just like, wow, why do
more people not understand thisidea of taking and stewarding wealth
as, an owner, not as somebody whoabdicates that to somebody else?
(04:44):
And it was almost, it wasone of these rare occasions.
I'll go ahead and say that I feltlike God put his thumb in my back
and said, why don't you do it?
And I thought, oh, well, becausemy wife is pregnant with our fourth
daughter, we have five, but atthe time was our fourth daughter.
(05:04):
She doesn't have a job.
I'm the sole provider.
I'm making over $300,000 a year.
I'm comfortable in the mortgage business.
Those are the reasons why Iwouldn't risk it all and go, you
know, try to teach people this.
But man, it was so compelling that Isaid, people need to know this system.
They need to know what the importance isof not abdicating the responsibility for
(05:27):
your finances that God's entrusted you.
And then how to then turnthat into financial freedom.
So that's what we do.
We're about freedom and it startswith spiritual freedom, but then
it leads to financial freedom andall that comes along with that.
that, that's good.
I mean, anytime peoplemake statements like.
(05:49):
I want to impact the world.
I have these two things that go throughmy head, Joey, so I'm gonna share
'em and I'm gonna let you respond.
First thing is usually aWow, that's pretty awesome.
I want to know more, whichis part of my question.
And then the second thing that goesthrough my head is impact the world.
(06:12):
You're right.
Come on.
You know, kind of this, really that'swhat it is, because I think I've
had similar things in, in my head.
Has that kind of always been on your mind?
I mean, like going back to, youknow, kid on the playground or
when did that crystallize for you?
You know, I would say in collegeI was very much impacted by a
(06:35):
ministry called Campus Outreach.
And I'm not certain ifeverybody's familiar with 'em.
They're mostly.
in the southeast, on collegecampuses and mostly smaller
campuses, although they're definitelygrowing into bigger schools now.
But there was the concept ofdiscipleship that was taught to me
that man, Jesus impacted the world byliterally spending time with 12 people.
(07:02):
And those 12 people he didn'teven spend all of his time with.
He really focused on three, but justfrom those relationships in three years
of ministry, there's a reason that youand I are talking about him today, and
we're not in Jerusalem, like you're inArizona and you're all over the country,
but I'm in Alabama and I am impacted bywhat happened over 2000 years ago with
(07:28):
Jesus affecting three people or 12 people.
How can I impact the world?
Well, I can do that here.
Wherever I'm at, I can spend time withpeople and pour into their lives that
then they can continue to do that.
I now get the opportunity through thismedia, right, through a podcast, there are
people, there are thousands of people thatlisten to our show all over the world.
(07:51):
And so for me, I didn't necessarilyknow how, but I knew that that was
always a drive since I got reallyimpacted with that idea of discipleship.
you know, there's some words I'mgonna bring three concepts together
and then ask you some questions.
I believe that people of faith
I.
(08:11):
have at times different thoughtsabout money or wealth and, and
sometimes they're not good.
And correct and biblicaland the right thoughts.
So we, we will kind ofhave that as a foundation.
But then I love the word lovethat your word brought up the word
discipleship because I think thatthat's what we're really lacking a
(08:37):
great deal of in the kingdom of God.
I think it's really somethingthat we have a lot of people maybe
saying things, but not people mayspending time and discipling and
walking people through things.
So, three things.
People of faith, the challenges orissues that they have with money,
and then kind holding someone's handand discipling and working with them.
(08:59):
I believe that you guys are working onall three of those and, and I think you've
got a community, you've got podcast.
I think podcast is a good portionof it, but to me, community coaching
and different things like thatis like one next level thing.
So I, I guess I'm just kind ofthrowing three words at you.
Faith.
Money or wealth and discipleship,and I'm, discipleship.
(09:22):
I'm just gonna let you
respond.
Sure.
Well, I'll just tell you, I'll kindof sum it up in to those three.
So one, faith, we don't have any sort ofa statement on our website that says you
have to be a Christian to engage withus or that we are going to share our
faith with you when you engage with us.
(09:43):
But I can tell you there'sbeen numerous opportunities.
For people to engage with us thatmaybe would've never stepped foot in
a church, that now they're thinkingdifferently and asking questions.
And we've even seen somepeople come to faith.
One of the guys that works for me rightnow became a Christian because he brought
(10:04):
up a very simple, question one time.
He was sharing his story andtelling us about what happened.
He said, well, I know youand Russ are religious.
And I was like, no, we're not.
We're not religious at all.
And he said, what, whatare you talking about?
I said, we have a relationship withChrist, but if you think religion is
gonna save anybody, you're sadly mistaken.
(10:27):
In fact, I learned these things.
I'd love to share 'emwith you at some point.
And if you wanna do that.
So we just engaged in a Bible study Hebecame a Christian through that process.
And so, yes, faith is super important.
It's not something that we requireof anybody to engage with us,
but it's super important and it'sthe foundation for how we think.
And I would say that that leads into,stewardship, which is how the church, how
(10:53):
the world thinks about money, what driveseverything in our mind is stewardship.
That you are not the owner of anything,but that God is the owner and he entrusts
to you All of life's resources thatyou've been given, including your time,
including your body, including yourmoney, including your relationships,
(11:17):
your experiences, all these thingsare things God's entrusted to you.
And we have not only arequirement, but a privilege.
To be able to steward those thingsin a way that reflects God's glory.
And the biggest challenge we hearfrom people of faith, people in the
(11:38):
church, outside of the church, isthat they have a really bad idea
that money is the root of all evil.
Money has all these negative connotations.
Like, oh, well, even, you know, the richare, it's impossible for a rich man to
enter the, the, the kingdom of heaven likea camel going through the eye of a needle.
(11:58):
There's so much context missingfrom those conversations, but it has
embedded in their minds a scarcityand almost like a fear, for money.
And so I find that the church is oneof the, like most, Atrophied or like
really struggling to become abundant.
(12:22):
And, and you know, it's not just abouthaving more money that is abundant,
it's about seeing money as a tool to beabundant with others within your family,
within your community, within your church.
And I can dive into more conceptsaround that if you want, but
that to me is like a foundation.
(12:43):
And then the last thing on thediscipleship aspect, I would say what
drives me in what we do is to say, man,there are things that we've learned
about money and passive income andfinancial freedom that I want to model.
So there's a reason why Russand I share our personal passive
income report every month.
(13:05):
It's not because we're bragging, it'sbecause we want to model what's possible.
We show people our actual system thatwe use to perpetuate passive income.
Because it's a model.
It's just like Jesus modeled to thedisciples how to interact with people,
how to, share about the kingdom ofGod, how to engage with the lost.
(13:29):
All those things are models.
Well, we do that within our business.
We help people, we come alongside ina discipleship type process where we
coach people, they set the system up,and then they graduate into, how do I
get my first $500 of passive income?
Well, there's a 12 week processthat they are engaged with.
(13:51):
They have to apply and qualify and allthat, but they get in and they then
have a group that also has an individualcoach that's helping them to get there.
So it's, it's not perfect and I don't,I never wanna make a claim that.
It could be similar to Jesus's process,but it's based off of the principles
(14:12):
of what we've seen in that example.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Yeah, that, that's really good.
And we may circle back, I do wanna lookat some practical things in just a few
minutes here, but there's somethingthat I, this is just a question that
I always have when I'm speaking of
speaking
someone with, that's in theseindustries I think, Joe, I'd like
(14:34):
to frame it in a couple of ways.
Number one, I'm curious aboutyour faith journey growing up.
You mentioned in college, you werearound, the organization there,
but I also would like to know yourrelationship with money growing up.
I think you mentioned you were inthe mortgage industry and maybe
we can chat about that briefly,but talk about your journey.
(14:55):
I mean, did you just kind of come outof the womb saying, yeah, I've got
a healthy relationship with money.
I don't, I don't think about it toomuch, but also don't ignore it, or was
there a journey involved with that?
What can you share
I'll say the reason why I'm so, kindof acutely aware of how the church has
just brutalized this whole concept isbecause I was a, I don't wanna say a
(15:18):
victim, but I was a result of that.
And it was, you know, I rememberconversations with my parents.
we grew up going to theSalvation Army Church.
My parents actually worked forthe Salvation Army for 40 years.
They just recently retired.
They never had money, and they alwaysspoke of it in a negative connotation.
(15:41):
Like those with money were notnecessarily serious about their faith.
those with money were almostlike sellouts in a sense because
oh, well they're the rich peopleand this and that and the other.
And I never, and so I kindof adopted those same things.
Money wasn't something I saw.
It wasn't something that I understood.
(16:03):
It wasn't something that Ireally ultimately wanted.
I equated somebody who's sold out forJesus is going into full-time ministry.
Somebody who's not, oh well they're inthe business world and you know, whatever.
That kind of thing had areally, really bad idea of that.
And then in college I was, faced with somebusinessmen that I met that were giving
(16:31):
and generous and proactive and very like,responsible and desiring to impact others
at a point that I'd never experienced.
And they had the means to do thingsthat were required to send people.
I started to see God's economy.
(16:54):
As not only people who are willingto go, but people who are called
to send and that God's economydoesn't work without the other one.
Like both of them are requiredfor the kingdom to go forth.
And so, I started to pursuegoing into full-time ministry
with that kind of understanding.
(17:15):
And God switched paths.
I literally was going and startingto raise support to become
a college kind of minister.
And doors just kept shuttingand shutting and shutting.
And it was just one of those weirdmoments where I was like, God, I thought
this is what you wanted me to do.
And he'd redirected me to the businessworld with this new kind of, passion to
(17:40):
say, I want to try to live so below mymeans that I can send with a passion.
I want people, when they talkto me about raising support.
I want to be like, how can I support you?
I want to be like, how can I trust theLord to increase what he's given me so
(18:01):
that I can pass it on, not so that Ican just keep increasing my lifestyle.
I want to keep increasingthe capacity to give.
And man, that was a drasticchange from how I grew up.
and again, I think it was justunderstanding the bible, understanding
what Jesus said about money and taking itin context versus the Christianese kind
(18:27):
of, cultural like view of these thingsthat were just quite frankly just wrong.
Yeah, and I wanna say this, this is notthrow our parents under the bus, talk
here, but they had scriptures to backup their thought process about money and
(18:47):
the context is extremely important tobring into when Jesus is saying things
about money and who is he speaking toand what are they doing at that time,
that would be a great conversation.
Let's don't go there.
but, and I'm always fascinated by this.
I cannot tell you, Joey, how manypeople that we've had here at Seek go
create that thought full-time ministry.
(19:10):
There were people of faith and theyfelt like they were called, that's
another Christianese word if you ask me.
They were called to go into theministry progression, you know, youth
pastor, assistant pastor, whatever.
And you know, the ultimate, whichis a missionary on foreign, you
know, foreign soil Somewhere.
(19:30):
And then they, and then when they leavethat they go through this, oh my gosh.
You know, they're gettingmessages from friends.
Oh, you're backsliding is everything okay?
but it sounds like thathappened with you early on.
Did you, were you, did you go intothe mortgage world immediately or were
there some other stops and starts along
the way?
Yeah, actually it was, it wasjust really the lord's kindness.
(19:51):
I was meeting with some of thosebusinessmen who I'd gotten connected
to, and I was just kind of lost andI was like, man, I really thought for
sure I was going into ministry andnow I'm trying to pivot and figure
out where in the business world I fit.
So I met with several of them andjust asked them, what do you do?
Like, how does, how does it work?
I, I just really haven't had experience.
(20:12):
And one of those guys was extremelystrong believer who owned his own mortgage
company, and he was just sitting withme and just telling me what he did.
And I thought, man, thatsounds really up my alley.
Like something I would reallyenjoy and I'd be gifted at.
And he said, you don't have anyexperience, so you, no, I don't
hire people without experience.
(20:33):
I'm like, what?
I mean, you just soldme on this whole idea.
I'm ready to go.
He's like, look.
Go find anywhere that will hire you,a bank, small bank, and just even
if they let you process mortgageloans, just to get your head
around how does it work and get theexperience, that's your first step.
Well, at the time I lived across thestreet from a bank, little tiny bank, and
(20:59):
I said, well, I'm gonna take his advice.
I walked across the street with my resumeand a plate of cookies and I sat with him.
I said, look, I just need to get someexperience in the mortgage business.
will you, will you hire me?
And the lady was so hungry that day, herstomach was growling in the interview.
And I was like, look, I,I brought some cookies.
(21:20):
You know, they're out there inthe lobby, like, help yourself.
and they thought that was thefunnest thing that anybody ever done.
So they hired me.
And when I say they hired me, they putme on a hundred percent commission and
said, go, go see what you can kill.
I made no money for like three months,but I got experience and started
(21:40):
to get my hands around it, and thenI went back to that original guy
and said, Hey, I did what you said.
I got experience.
Six months in.
He was like, okay, youcan come work for me now.
So you're off to the races now.
I think if I did my timeframes rightwhen I was looking at your background,
you were in the mortgage industry duringthat incredible awesome time of 2008.
(22:01):
we do not wanna spend much time onthat, but just gimme a little bit of
what, what, how did Joey do during that?
Did the Lord just lift you up andyou never had any pain or discomfort?
you notice how I was sort of jokingabout the lift you up, not total rapture,
which I'm not a huge proponent of, butjust lifted you up so that you didn't
(22:23):
have to go through that tribulationand then set you back down gently in
around 2011, 12, or was there another
story?
Well, you know what's super crazyis at the time I was working for
Wells Fargo and we serviced, theyserviced all of their loans and.
(22:43):
You know, 2008 hit and most peoplesee from the real estate person's
perspective how bad it was.
And if you ask me how manypurchase loans I was able to do
during that time, it was very few.
'cause people weren't goingand buying new houses.
But what they were doing is therates went from the sixes down into
(23:07):
the fours and all of a sudden Igot inundated with refinance loans.
People that I had done businesswith for 5, 6, 7 years at the time.
Now they needed to refinanceat a much lower rate.
And there were some government programseven that were allowing them to do it
without, you know, having to show asmuch income and all this kind of stuff.
(23:31):
I actually grew my income in mybusiness during that time because
we had so many people looking totake advantage of those lower rates.
So.
it was actually a blessing and most ofmy real estate friends struggled, but
in terms of the mortgage industry, itwas a great, actually time to be in.
(23:53):
Interesting.
Well, I'm one of those that wentfrom whatever, the palace to
homeless at all during that season.
So I actually appreciate stories likethat because sometimes we lump, every EMS
says, oh yeah, it was tough, tough, tough.
So
So I think that's awesome.
so this is my shift into,wealth without Wall Street.
(24:14):
I've got 1, 2, 3, 4, maybe fivebrowsers pulled up on my computer here.
And obviously you and yourpartner Russ, y'all have
have really
leaned into.
The wealth without Wall Street, message,because I see podcasts, I see YouTube,
(24:36):
I see books and, scan through, listenedto, looked at all of those, over the
last few days as I've been, you know,researching all things that are.
Joey, tell me about, I bet there wasa transition as you moved into that.
Tell me a little about the transition,and we're gonna be moving into, the
last good bit of time we have talkingabout what's wrong with Wall Street,
(25:01):
what do we need to be looking at,passive income, things like that.
So start it.
Tell me about how it kind of got started.
Wealth without Wall
Street.
well, I'll tell you the baseline ofour entire thing and the thing that
compelled me, to switch careers fromthe mortgage industry into what we do
now is, there was a book that I read in2009 that Russ actually shared with me.
(25:25):
We were friends fromchurch, that's how we met.
And he said, man, I'm gonna start sendingyou referrals as long as you understand
the concepts I'm teaching my clients.
It's called Become YourOwn Banker by Nelson Nash.
And as I read that book,it's only 88 pages.
Very small, big print,you know, easy read.
I was just shocked that this was thething I had always like, was looking
(25:50):
for, but didn't know what it was.
This was the mindset shift that tookme from blindly just keeping my head
down, working 50, 60 hours a week,putting money away into my 401k.
Into IRAs and just hopingfor retirement at someday.
(26:10):
And what he shared in that book wasthat I needed to take control of my
finances, And actually, Nelson Nashvillewas a strong believer before he passed.
I would say that it was becoming asteward of what God had given me and
not abdicating it to somebody else,which is what we've all been duped.
(26:34):
I say duped or encouraged or manipulatedto think that, man, you know what,
Tim, you're just not that smartwhen it comes to financial matters.
And you didn't go to school tobecome a financial planner or a
market analyst or what have you.
You just don't have time for that.
So you just give me all your money.
(26:56):
And I'll be the one to manage it for you.
Now, a manager in any other situationactually has ownership or requirement
or liability to what they're managing.
But in the financial world, wallStreet, they have no liability.
(27:19):
In fact, your accounts cango up or they can go down and
they will get paid regardless.
And they will encourage youthat, Hey, you know what, we
just can't control everything.
Like, you know, this is what happened.
The market did this, the market didthat, and you are literally stuck
(27:39):
on a rollercoaster at that point.
If the market goes up, you don't wannasell because what you're gonna miss out,
there's this FOMO of it could continueto go, you don't, if it goes down.
You don't wanna lock in your lossesand sell because now you're so far
behind, like what are you gonna do?
You've just really lost.
(28:00):
So you just continue this up and down, andWall Street profits with today's dollars
on your money every single month whereyou are putting your money into there
with the hope that it's enough when you're65, 70, whatever the case is, it is the
(28:24):
biggest scam that we have been told of alltime, and people willingly give that money
over to that system every single day.
What Wealth without Wall Street isall about was born outta this concept
called the infinite banking concept,which takes all of your cash flow,
(28:44):
puts it into your control, intoyour economy, and then it begs you.
To become an investor.
And that's really wherethis whole thing came.
We didn't know what to invest in.
Tim, I'm just being honest with you.
If you asked me in 2008, I would'vesaid, go buy like a piece of
real estate, a rental property.
That's about all I could think of.
(29:06):
But we started the podcast in 2017because we had all these clients
doing this infinite banking concept.
They had all this cash that theywere putting into their system
and it's a high cash value lifeinsurance kind of system of policies.
And they're sitting there, HeyJoey, Russ, what do we do with it?
And we're like, I don't know.
(29:28):
What do you think?
I mean, so we started interviewingpeople that are passive income, real
estate, online entrepreneurs, peoplethat could know what to do with capital.
And it was all off of Wall Street.
So thus the name Wealth WithoutWall Street controlling your
cash and the end result.
(29:49):
Being, when your passive income exceedsyour monthly expenses, you're now free.
I mean, as Tim is shaking,is nodding his head 'cause he
knows what we're talking about.
But as you listen to us, I want you tothink about your calendar right now.
You pull up your phone, Igot my phone right here.
(30:11):
You pull it up, you look at the calendar.
The question is, are the thingson your calendar dictated
by you or by somebody else?
Is it your business that is ownedyou, that you literally have no time
to do anything outside of becauseit's really dictating to you?
(30:31):
Or do you work for somebody else in a W2fashion that your majority of your life is
being owned and dictated by somebody else?
The financial freedom formula,when your passive income
exceeds your monthly expenses.
That means money that is at workon your behalf coming in monthly
(30:52):
exceeds what it costs you to live.
I then get to dictate what goeson the calendar, and that could be
exactly what God has created me to be.
I don't know what that is for you,but that is the end result that we're
trying to accomplish and everything wedo is centered around that very concept,
(31:15):
I am sure.
With a message.
Wealth without Wall Street, sinceWall Street is the norm or the
standard, or the propagandized,way, whatever term we want to use.
I think I might've shown my hand there.
Darn it.
I was trying to askthis in a different way.
(31:35):
it's what the masses believe.
Now it's interesting the massesdon't necessarily participate in
it, but they believe the headlines.
I can't pull my phone up, it's my camera.
But if I go to any financialheadline, they will be reporting
on, today, you know, recording thissometime in April, something that the
current president did that caused.
(31:56):
The market to go down 500, up 500,whatever you, but what are, what's
some of the pushback or arguments youget from people when you say that you
can create wealth without Wall Street?
Because
there's probably some that are goingthrough a few people's minds listening in.
Let's go ahead and hit a few of those.
And then I wanna talk about passiveincome in general before we get to
(32:17):
some specifics.
Sure.
So number one, people are, I'lljust use 4 0 1 Ks as an example.
They're like, Joey, I mean, I, you'retelling me not to put money in 4K.
Like, that's dumb.
I get free money for my employer.
I get a hundred percent match.
That's like a, it's free money.
(32:39):
It's a hundred percent return.
I don't have to pay tax on that money.
Right?
It's a tax deferred type of opportunity.
Why wouldn't I do that?
And, and here's the thingthat it comes down to,
if we're keeping score the sameway, if you truly do want financial
freedom today, okay, and I'm talkingto somebody who's 30 to 50 years old,
(33:03):
let's just say that that's the windowof time that we're talking about.
And you say, I wanna be financiallyfree today or as soon as possible,
then by putting money into a 401k,you are actually reducing your ability
to become free today because you're,you're purposely and voluntarily.
(33:24):
Putting money into something you can'ttouch until you're 59 and a half.
You say, okay, that makes sense.
But what about the, the match?
Does the match it the matches yourincentive, your enticement to put your
money away for the next 20 years, 30years, whatever, however old you are, is
(33:44):
that going to keep that, that could bekeeping you from what your actual goal is.
So if you, now if you are like,you know what Joey, I just
want to go towards retirement.
I don't want to think about it.
I just wanna be on autopilot.
This is not your message, right?
Because you just keepdoing what you're doing.
But for the person that says,you know what, he's right.
(34:08):
I want to spend time with my family today.
I want to be more activein my church family.
I want to be more, availablebecause life is owning me.
Then the answer is, Ihave to take back control.
I have to be in a position tobecome an investor, to buy back my
(34:29):
time by creating passive income.
So people push back on the four oneK until we have that conversation.
Because if your goal is differentthan mine, then we don't
have anything to talk about.
But if we have the same goal, then youhave to objectively agree no matter
what the internal rate of return is, nomatter what the tax benefit today is,
(34:51):
by the way, there is no tax benefit.
'cause 30 years from now, there's notelling what the taxes are going to be
when you actually start to pay them.
But if we're talking about financialfreedom, there is no denying that that
is the worst vehicle to get you there.
And so that's one thing.
And then I'd say the second thing ispeople just don't want to be different.
(35:12):
They want to be just like everybody else.
They want to stay safe, they wanna stay.
Comfortable in the herd.
And for that person, I can't help'em either, because you have to
be willing to do something thatno one else is doing to have the
results that no one else is having.
(35:33):
And if you're not willing to dothat, then you need to just kind of
reorient your expectations to not besurprised when you end up exactly in
the same place that everybody else is.
It's like somebody going to, you know,a really overweight personal trainer.
They've already proventhat that's the result.
(35:55):
Why would I go to them?
They don't have the resultthat I'm looking for.
But it's just the same as goingand following someone else.
Your, your, you know, your peers, yourfriends, your family who's telling you
all these things to do with your money.
And you look at their life and you say.
Actually, that doesn'treally match up for me.
(36:15):
I wanna do something different than them.
But yet you're doing the samethings as them with your money.
Those things do not coexist.
You cannot do that.
You have to have a reality checkand say, I need to go find a
different personal trainer.
I think what you saidearlier is pretty powerful.
I want to bring that back upagain, that we're not abdicating.
(36:40):
Someone doing something with our money.
They just don't wanna think aboutit, don't wanna talk about it.
They, you know, they don't have theconversations like we're having here.
I love talking about money.
I love talking about wealth.
You know, it's, I've neverhad an issue with it.
in fact, I might.
At times should talk about it less.
But, anyway, so, so I do think theysort of UI use the word abdicate it.
(37:01):
They shun it, they resist it,and I like the word stewardship.
We've used the word stewardship here.
We're on 300 plus episodes.
That word comes up quite a bit
And
really an understanding of.
The gifts, talents, you know, whateverthat God has given us, we steward over
those and I believe we have to give itback in a better condition than when we
(37:21):
received it as part of that stewardship.
Now, something that comes up though thatis, I think a stumbling block for people
is this, this passive income or passivemoney because we're programmed to go to
work, get paid, go to work, get paid.
(37:41):
and I actually at times can be cynicalabout passive income because some
of the hardest work I've ever doneis in the pursuit of passive income.
And, I'll bring this up from the book.
I think y'all have something calledthe PIOS Passive Income Operating
System, which to me, operating inpassive is a little bit of an oxymoron.
(38:01):
So I'm gonna call you out a littlebit and make you really talk about it.
But anyway, jumbo shrimp,passive operating anyway.
But, talk about, people that need toovercome the hurdle of no passive income.
You, you can't do that.
It's not a real thing.
And, you're always gonna have todo work for some type of financial
(38:23):
reward.
Yeah.
Well, so I'll just say, you know,spoiler alert, passive income
requires active engagement.
In order for it to ever be passive.
Okay?
So for instance, and this is where I thinkmost people get the bad idea, I can become
(38:44):
a poor investor by passively throwingmoney at things and not ever spending any
time in due diligence or understandingwhat it means to be an investor.
You have to put in the time, you haveto put in the energy, the effort to be
able to know what good looks like, okay?
(39:07):
Otherwise, the very first thingthat you look at is gonna look
fantastic, and it's a dog.
I'm just gonna tell you, youhaven't looked at 10 deals.
You looked at one and one looks amazing.
You look at 10, and that one may be theworst of the 10, but the reason that
you don't do it is because you didn'tget active as becoming an investor.
(39:31):
the second thing is whenever you areeven looking, let's say you've become
an investor and you are knowledgeableand understanding, when you are
looking at deals, you have to activelyengage in a due diligence process.
This is the stewardship aspect.
(39:51):
Hey, this pitch deck came by me,my office, and I look at it and
it looks good on the surface, butthere's some due diligence items.
Like who's the operator?
What's the asset type?
Does it fit my investor?
when does the capital actuallystart to come back to me?
Is it quick?
Is it three months?
Is it six months?
Is it 12 months?
(40:12):
Is there a stabilization period?
Is it geographically located in a placethat I want my money to be, stored up in?
Is it in like looking at themacroeconomics of the world?
Does it look like it's in aplace where it's gonna continue
to grow or is it shrinking backin terms of the market itself?
(40:34):
these are all things that, as aninvestor, you actively engage with that
opportunity before you passively invest.
And so to your point, passive incomedoes not mean uninvolved income.
You have to be an investor and youhave to take the time to not just
(40:55):
blindly throw money at something.
if you do, you'll become an investorby learning the lessons the hard way.
but it is a necessary step to become that.
Now to answer your passiveincome operating system.
The operating system is the active flowof cash in your economy, and most people
(41:15):
never get out of what you just said.
Get paid, pay the bills, get paid, paythe bills, get paid, pay the bills.
That's the rat race.
That's the rat race that we get stuck in.
The Passade operating system connectsa whole different side to that.
I get paid, I pay the bills, andthere's whatever's left over,
(41:37):
gets into the right hand side.
We call that the wealth, accelerator side.
And that's where we tie inthe infinite banking concept.
That's where we tie in this neverending compounding machine that is
passively growing for you, but it isall a part of the active, controlled
(41:57):
environment that you put your cashflow through so that it can create the
passive income that will then free you.
Good.
And we've already established earlier that
this is not necessarily easy.
It's not.
I think there's some simplification.
We're gonna talk about that herein our last bit of time together.
we're gonna simplify what that lookslike so someone can understand.
(42:19):
there are steps along the way that peoplehave to do a little extra, I think is the
way I heard it as we're going through it.
I think the first part, you just broughtit up actually, you said it at the
very beginning, is that you chose tolive below your means and have extra.
(42:40):
I actually think that alarge percentage we could.
Probably find the mathpretty easily of people.
This is a, we go all over, butlet's just talk about the us.
They are not living below their means.
They're not living at their means.
They're living above their means,which means this is gonna be a
(43:02):
tough conversation for them, right?
right.
I mean, because this is not somekind of magical, get rich quick, you
know, you snap your fingers and allof a sudden you're still gonna have
the same cars and the bills and thecredit card debt, and this is going
to magically get you outta that.
That's not the case.
I've actually been around a lot of peopleof faith that have that philosophy too, by
(43:27):
the way, um, that God's going to somehow,um, wipe everything out and all that.
So let's talk about, let's assume thatsomeone's listening in and they've got
some extra, and they're intrigued by this.
They've got extra money.
Let's say they're in that agebracket that you talked about
earlier, and they go, you know what?
(43:48):
I'd like to start creating this.
You called it a system, I'll call it abucket, that they wanna start putting
something into this bucket I've heard
life
I've heard contracts with life insurance.
I've heard.
Then I start investing.
Let's take just a few baby steps and walkpeople through the, the basics there.
So
(44:08):
sure.
How does it get started?
So the first thing is the passive incomeoperating system is getting your goals
aligned with what you do with cash.
If my goals are to become financiallyfree, to get my passive income
exceeding my monthly expenses.
I'm no longer gonna put moneyinto 4 0 1 Ks than IRAs.
(44:31):
I'm gonna stop the flow of money intothose vehicles, which means I now have
more money in my bank account at theend of the month, assuming I don't
allow my lifestyle to creep, right?
Number two, I'm gonna stop payingcash for everything that I do.
Cash is the most expensive way to payfor anything, and most people will
(44:55):
challenge me on this and say, well, Joey,I mean there's no cost to cash wrong.
There's opportunity cost thatyou never get a bill for.
What do I mean by that?
If I go and put a hundred thousand dollarsdown on a house that I'm going to then
use as a rental property or a second home,or what have you, whatever you wanna call
(45:16):
it, that a hundred thousand came from mybank account, which at that point doesn't
have any ability to earn another dollar.
Until I replace it back, right?
Nobody's gonna send you a bill thatsays, Hey, by the way, Tim, that a
hundred thousand could have earned$36,000 over the last eight years
(45:38):
or whatever the timeframe was.
But that's the reality ofwhat actually happened.
Now, why do we then use infinite bankingor these, whole life insurance policies
designed for cash value because they allowyou to not only store the capital, put
the money into these contracts, but thento borrow against them so that your money
(46:00):
always grows, never stops compounding.
So you never give up the opportunitycost, and you can repay it over time.
With these, there's loan provisionsand things we could probably get into
if you want to, but the reason wejust replace your checking account
with a better mousetrap, somethingthat gives you more of what you want
(46:21):
it to do and less of what you don't.
And then the third thing that peoplestop doing when they're really actively
trying to get to this place of,building financial freedom is they
stop paying off their debts as the onlydesign for what they do with money.
I love Dave Ramsey because he helpspeople who are living way above
(46:46):
their means get below their means.
He helps them psychologically to say, stopdoing stupid things and trying to keep
up with people that don't care about you.
I'm glad Dave is, but when it comes toabsolutely like, you know, the simplicity
of his deal is just pay off all debt.
All debt is bad, never get debt.
(47:07):
It's so bad.
Don't ever do it.
When you're trying to keep, tabs onthis financial freedom formula, you
have to be objective about when doyou pay off debt and when do you not?
It's just not this blanket.
Like if it's debt, you pay it off.
You say, man, I've accumulated $50,000and I have two choices to make.
(47:28):
I can either, again, 'cause I'mkeeping track of the formula, passive
income exceeding monthly expenses.
There's two sides to the coin,not just monthly expenses,
which would include debts.
And so I say if I have $50,000that I've accumulated in my
system, what do I do with it?
I can either go put it into a passiveasset, maybe it's a syndication, maybe
(47:54):
it's into a land flipping business,maybe it's into a private loan, whatever.
And let's just say that thatwould create $500 a month.
Or I can take 50,000 andI can pay off a car loan.
And let's just say that thecar loan was $350 a month.
If I'm keeping tabs on this formulaand I could either produce $500 a
(48:19):
month passive income or pay off $350a month for my car loan, which one
is actually getting me closer tomy goal to produce the 500 a month?
Right?
So although I could have paid off thecar, it actually would've taken me
backwards on my ultimate goal of passiveincome greater than monthly expenses.
(48:45):
Notice that I did not saywhat the interest rate was
because it doesn't matter.
It's about the cash flow, which one isgetting me closer to financial freedom.
And so if you can be objective aboutthat and keep that as your main focus.
Now you have a system that youare consistently using those
(49:07):
dollars at the highest levelto get you to your end result.
So that's kind of how the first stepthat people have to do is stop doing
certain things with money, start doingthings with money that really uplift
and encourage your actual end goal.
And we can talk about steps twoand three, but that's, that's
(49:29):
the number one thing in my mind.
Yeah.
And the big thing here is, if you'recoming against Dave Ramsey, you may
have some issues you have to deal withbecause we won't say he's the 13th
disciple, but some people think he is.
And,
and,
and,
and I've known people that have comeagainst Dave and it's like, Ooh.
And I pull for Dave and I agree ingeneral with the debt thing also.
(49:53):
but there, there is ways of leveraging.
so you've got this system thatI still think some people have a
difficult
wrapping their head around.
So I'm gonna get whole life policies,I've got contracts, and then from
those policies I'll borrow againstthe cash value so that I could
then go out and do other things.
(50:14):
I'm sure there's some people willsay, you know, I think I'm gonna
just get the policies and let it sit.
That.
That.
That is probably fine, but it's notreally maximizing what someone can
do.
Correct.
Well, think about it this way.
the policy is not an investment.
(50:34):
The policy is a replacementfor your savings vehicle.
So you tell me, if someone says, yeah,I'm just gonna let the policy ride and
that's gonna be my, you know, long-termdeal, well then the question would
be is how, how wealthy do you believepeople that just save money become?
(50:57):
There's not, there's not a good exampleof somebody that just saves money in
a savings vehicle that gets wealthy.
At best, they're going to keepup with inflation at worst,
like a checking account or, youknow, even a savings account.
They're losing ground asit relates to inflation.
So it's like termites in your money.
(51:19):
It's not actually goingto help you get to wealth.
True wealth is through cash flow.
And so I always have to take whatever thesavings dollars I have and put it to work.
Otherwise, I use the term it's lazy cash.
Lazy cash is not acceptable.
We have to keep it at work.
It has to be doing work whilewe're actively at work or creating
(51:44):
wealth, it has to be doing its job.
the policies just are thegreatest holding place.
Nelson Nash called itYour Warehouse for wealth.
And I think that's a perfectanalogy because what's a warehouse?
Do money come, things come into thewarehouse, things go out of the warehouse.
Things come into thewarehouse, things go out.
(52:04):
your policy or your system of policies hasto be always in flux, always being used.
It's not something to just be sittingthere, you know, picking up dust.
and so that's one thing we've really,really honed in on is the systematic
use, not just the, you know, thecul-de-sac, if you will, for your money.
(52:28):
Right, and that's where a lot ofthese, which I love these topics.
I mean, you guys have massive amountsof topics on your YouTube channel
and your podcast where you're reallyjust gathering, it sounds like you're
gathering information to try to findways of generating passive income because
you've got all of these mechanisms,these savings mechanisms in place that
(52:51):
people can then go out and do that.
There's one interesting thing thatyou do, and I think I heard it on the
podcast, I guess you probably do it onYouTube too, is that you and Russ will
state where you are currently at yourkey performance indicator of passive.
Income.
I want to ask you if you can saywhere that is here in spring.
(53:16):
We'll put a timestamp onthis episode, spring of 2025.
But before I do, I wanna ask, if yourparents are okay with you letting the
world know with the background you grew upin letting the world know how much money
you're making in your passive income.
Did they ever say anything to you
(53:37):
about that?
I'm curious.
You know what it is, it is somewhatof a concern that people are like,
wait a minute, you're puttingthis out on, front street here.
And my, answer to that, Tim, is wedon't want to be thought leaders.
I think the world ishungry for authenticity.
Like they need to know.
I. That you're not just talking aboutsomething, that you're actually doing it.
(54:01):
That there is actual actionbeing taken and that people
are eating their own cooking.
You know, that's how we sayit here in Alabama, right?
Eat your own cooking.
We, we want people to, we needto be results leaders, and it is
uncomfortable at times, but whatwe always lead with is this is not
(54:23):
a boastful like, Hey, look at us.
This is, Hey, this is what's working.
This is what's not working.
By the way, we share those arrows inthe back as well, and we've had some
pretty humbling moments on the podcastand on the YouTube channel, but at the
end of the day, it's to lead by example.
(54:44):
I, I told you thatinitially Jesus gave models.
This is a model that we can share withthe world to say, we built the system.
We became investors,not perfect investors.
In fact, we've lost a lot ofmoney and this is the result.
And if you want results similar, wecan show you the way that's, that's
(55:08):
ultimately what this is about.
we don't share our active income.
We share our passive income.
And, our whole job is to inspire,educate, empower, and expose
people to what's possible.
Yeah, I think I heard ranges30 5K to 50 and bouncing around
(55:28):
right is, I mean, those are
nice numbers.
Yeah.
It does not, it's not perfectlystable every single month because
certain things pay out in some months.
Certain pay don't pay out in others.
I mean, we have, lots of different areasthat we ra, you know, have money in.
I'll give you one quick example.
We have have three cars on Touro thatsomeone else operates, and last month
(55:54):
I showed a negative $900 because one ofthose cars came back with massive damage.
Two, two tires busted, or not busted,but the, the, the wheels were,
dented and a tire run in was busted.
It was just, they must have hit a curbor something and just didn't care, you
(56:16):
know, and there was also an alternatorthat went out, like there's maintenance
issues that go wrong, whereas the monthbefore it was like $2,700 just with those
three cars and I didn't do anything.
It was, I was not hands on at all.
So there's ups and downs witheach one of these things.
But on the whole, theyaverage around 50,000 a month.
(56:38):
And, we're constantly just trying tothink about what's the next thing or
what should we put more money into?
And, I think one of our biggestnegatives is that we are the ones
that interview all these people.
And so we wanna try 'em all, youknow, like we probably should
start to limit down our favorites.
what?
What's your
my favorite,
(56:58):
Yeah, I was gonna say, What'syour favorite one right now?
Yeah.
I think buying and selling rawLand on notes is my favorite.
if you haven't interviewed the landgeek.com, mark Podolski, he taught
us this method and he actuallyhas a team that runs our business.
We buy land for 20 to30 cents on the dollar.
(57:18):
We sell it to retail buyers on terms.
So I buy a property for 2,500, Isell it for 10,000, but the 10,000
may be a thousand dollars downand $300 a month for 30 months.
That's a perfect deal for us.
we just keep stacking 300, 300, 300,and that has, yielded over 30,000 a
(57:41):
month just in that one asset type.
I love it.
it's hard for that thing to gowrong because in any economy, people
are flooding to real assets likeland and we make it affordable
for people to be able to do it.
they're not making any more of it.
So it's really a great,stable asset class.
(58:02):
and it's fully run by an operator.
Who's an expert.
Yeah, that's good.
There's probably so many more.
I recommend people, I think I see abunch of 'em here over on the YouTube
channel and I'm sure the podcast.
So there's a lot ofresources you guys have.
I think, Joey, this would be a greattime to just share with the audience.
(58:24):
We'll include things down in the notes.
What's the best way for people to getin touch with you to get more info?
You know, you've got podcasts,you've got book, you've got
YouTube, where do you want
people to go to connect?
Well, I'll tell you, we made aspecific page just for your audience.
if you go to wealth wallstreet.com, slash seek, go create.
(58:45):
So wealth wall streete.com/seek go create.
our contact info's on there,our access to our community.
I think we have some otherfree resources there.
Love for you to connect with us andlet us know that you heard Tim and
I, having this, great conversationtoday so we know where you came from.
(59:05):
All right, last quick question.
One, quick tip.
We've covered a bunch, but likeyour quick rapid fire tip that
you could give before I wrap up
The one thing we didn't talkabout is becoming an investor.
it starts with knowing your investor, DNA,go and find your investor DNA profile.
(59:26):
We have a tool that you can engage withus on, and it tells you how does your
personality, how did God create you, tosee the world with your resources, your
experiences, your access to capital.
What out of about 16 differentpassive income strategies
line up the best with you?
(59:47):
Because you should just be doing thethings that have the highest ROI.
Do what?
Lines up with your personality andyou'll actually get, closer and faster
to financial freedom than anything else.
Excellent.
Yeah, I love that because everybody's gotdifferent mindset and I mean, there are
(01:00:07):
things that I'm comfortable with that youmay not be and et cetera, so I love that.
So we'll make sure to include all that.
Joey Muray, thank you so much.
Wealth without Wall Streetis all of their resources.
He gave a great link.
We'll include it down in the notesit's been a cool conversation.
I love it.
We've got new episodes every Monday.
I appreciate everybody joining in here.
Keep commenting, keep rating,all those cool things.
(01:00:30):
I greatly appreciate it.
thanks for joining us.
See you next week.
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