Chase Your Adventure: Faith, Leadership & Life Insights from Jeffrey Sanow of the CIA

What do a CIA officer and the Apostle Paul have in common? In this episode of Seek Go Create, host Tim Winders sits down with Jeffrey Sanow, a former senior intelligence officer whose adventures took him across the globe—including over 100 missions to Syria, along the storied road to Damascus. Discover how deep faith, leadership under pressure, and a passion for adventure shaped Jeffrey’s extraordinary journey from a small-town Ohio farm to the heart of international intelligence. Tune in to hear powerful stories about real-life transformation, the value of cultural respect, and the courage it takes to follow your calling—no matter where it leads. This is a conversation that will both inspire and challenge the way you think about adventure, purpose, and conviction.

"Whatever your adventure is, let loose the dogs of adventure and chase it." - Jeffrey Sanow

Access all show and episode resources HERE

About Our Guest:

Jeffrey Sanow is a former senior intelligence officer with the CIA, where he undertook over 100 missions to Syria and built a distinguished career spanning multiple continents. With deep operational experience in complex, high-stakes environments, he has lived and worked in more than ten countries, including extensive roles across North Africa, the Middle East, and Asia. Jeffrey brings a unique blend of international business acumen, Peace Corps service, leadership expertise, and a rich spiritual perspective. He is the author of "Humint for Humanity," a book that explores the human side of intelligence and global engagement, offering readers rare insights into integrity, courageous decision-making, and the transforming power of adventure.

Reasons to Listen:

1. Unique Insights from a Former CIA Officer: Discover rarely-heard stories and perspectives from Jeffrey Sanow’s 100+ missions in Syria, and his experiences living and working in over 30 countries around the world.
2. Adventure, Faith, and Transformation: Hear how deep personal faith, leadership under pressure, and real-world adventure intersect, including Sanow’s reflections on walking the biblical road to Damascus and how it impacted his worldview.
3. Practical Lessons on Culture and Connection: Gain valuable advice on building respect and understanding across cultures, the power of learning local languages, and the importance of chasing one’s own adventure—wherever it may lead.

Episode Resources & Action Steps:

Resources Mentioned in the Episode:

1. Humint for Humanity: A Journey Into the World Less Traveled by Jeffrey Sanow: Purchase at Amazon
2. Jeffrey Sanow’s Website: Connect, read reviews, and learn more about his work and experiences - jeffreyssanow.com
3. The Peace Corps: Organization discussed as a valuable path for adventure, service, and growth - peacecorps.gov

Action Steps for Listeners:

1. Pursue Adventure, Big or Small: Take Jeffrey's advice to “let loose the dogs of adventure.” Whether it's traveling somewhere new, embracing a fresh project, or simply approaching daily routines with a spirit of curiosity, make adventure an intentional part of life.
2. Show Cultural Respect by...

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Whatever your adventure is.

(00:02):
Let loose the dogs ofadventure and chase it.
If it's going to the grocery store, makethat your adventure, whatever, it doesn't
matter, but chase your adventure becauseif you sit back and let the adventure
get away from you, it's your loss.
But if you go after it and youtrip and fall on your face 10
or 20 times, I've done that.

(00:23):
That's just all part of the adventure.
What did the Apostle Paul and aformer CIA officer have in common?
More than you might think.
In this episode of Seek, go,create the leadership journey.

(00:45):
We're joined by Jeffrey Eno, a formersenior intelligence officer with
CIA, whose career took him across theglobe, including over 100 missions to
Syria where he regularly walked thevery road to Damascus that transformed
Saul into who we know as Paul, bringsa rare blend of deep faith and high
level operational experience to theconversation, offering powerful insights

(01:09):
on integrity, leadership under pressure,and how spiritual transformation can
inform strategic decision making.
is a conversation that will challenge,inspire, and reframe how you think about
calling and the cost of conviction.
Jeffrey, welcome to Seek, go Create.
Thank you.
It's my pleasure to be here.

(01:30):
I am glad that you're here too, and I'mlooking forward to hearing some of these
stories and it's rare that I get like,first of all, it's rare that I get someone
who's got CIA or a three letter attached,and then also that can tie in some of the
spiritual conversations we love to have.
Man, this is gonna be fun.
Before we get too much further though,you rather answer the question,

(01:52):
what do you do if someone's, youknow, you're out and about or on a
podcast and someone asks you that?
Or Who are you?
Which would you prefer?
Go ahead and pick it and start answering.
What do I do is easy and boring.
Who am I?
Is much more complicated and entertaining.
I am a farm boy from Ohio.

(02:17):
I grew up on a small farm there.
my parents were divorced when I was 11, soI went through a lot of the entertainment
that the children of divorce go through.
And so at the age of 20, after I'dbeen at Ohio State University for
two years, I decided to go aheadand run away from home formally.

(02:37):
So I joined the Peace Corpsand went to North Africa.
and after two years there, I stillwasn't ready to go back to Ohio
'cause that was the only thing lookingat me, more of that cold wind and
whistles between those buildings atOhio State University in the winter.
No, no, no, no, no.
My blood was too thin, soI went to another, country.
I went to Gabon, whichis right on the equator.

(03:00):
And, just so you know how impressed mymother was with me, she was thrilled
when I said I was going to Gabon.
'cause she went, that's whereAlbert Schweitzer's hospital is
when I guess what my response was.
Who's that?
So that's where AlbertSchweitzer's Hospital is that,
that I've never forgotten.
I was there for a year anda half and then, due to some

(03:22):
other family machinations, Ijust had to go ahead and leave.
Went to school in Texas, finished upmy bachelor's and master's degree.
first job out of college was at, apoultry processing plant in Waco, Texas.
After my second day there, I waspretty sure that was not the job
that my mother had in mind for me.
so from there I applied to variousinternational organizations, international

(03:43):
businesses, and I was very fortunate.
I was able to spend, three yearsin India where I was selling
irrigation equipment for a largecompany called Valmont Industries.
I was there three years and ultimatelywe ended up signing a contract to export
plastic components back to the us.
So after that, I went back to the USand managed to find a job in Greece

(04:06):
and went back over to Athens where thecompany was supposedly investing in
a latex glove manufacturing facility,which of course never came to pass.
So after two years it's like,okay, there's no job here.
So I had to leave.
I went back to Texas, got continuededucation certification in
telecommunications management.
This was back when the internet was stillnot barely a glimmer in Al Gore's eye.

(04:29):
and, proceeded to get a job, workingfor a company out of Houston.
But I was based in Abu Dhabi andI was selling telecommunication
network management systemsthroughout the Middle East.
Which is what brought meto Syria so many times.
and I was there for six years, decided tocome back and let my adventurous streak

(04:50):
take over, applied to the agency, gotaccepted because by that time I'd lived
in multiple countries, spoke multiplelanguages, and they really liked that.
and I was accepted.
And so, that's where I wrapped upmy career, uh, doing God's work.
And let me just tell your listeners onething right now, the people, the LA rank

(05:10):
and file people in the ccia a are thebest that this country has to offer.
They should take a greatdeal of confidence in that.
I'm not talking about theleadership issues and all the
political nonsense goes on.
I'm talking about the folks who showup at, you know, 6 30, 7 o'clock in the
morning, work until 4, 5, 6 o'clock inthe evening, and do that five days a
week, sometimes six or seven days a week.

(05:32):
They are the best thiscountry has to offer.
And no matter what you see on tv.
Your listeners should take a great deal ofpride in the workforce That is at the CIA.
I'm excited to do a little bit more of adive into that CIA in just a little while,
but there's so many parts of this storyas, I think I told you maybe about halfway
through your book that I've been reading,we'll talk about that as we go along here.

(05:57):
Uh, hu hum.
Human for Humanity.
I dunno if I pronounce that right, but
Yes, sir.
that.
I'm gonna ask aboutthat in a little while.
But first, I mean, there, how manycountries have you been to because you
rattled off some names that are notyour, you know, Gabon and you know, Tia
and all these, so, you know, they'renot your average Joe Traveler country.

(06:21):
You know, I, I went toFrance, I went to Australia.
No, that's not what I'm hearing from you.
How many countries and good gracious the
I think the total number when I satdown and added them up was 33 different
countries I've either lived in or visited.
I think I've lived in 12.
Somewhere between 10 and 12that I've actually lived in.

(06:42):
And, you know, I enjoyed it.
It was a blessing.
I'm not gonna deny that.
and I like to think that I was doing good.
and you know, the book, human Standsfor Human Intelligence and Americans
By and Large, have been protected bythese two really big bodies of water on

(07:04):
either side and a really cold neighborto the north, and a river to the south.
So we're very internally focused.
You don't need to go any placeto get what you need to eat,
drink, sleep with whatever.
We have all that here.
And yet there's a huge world out thereAnd I wrote it so that people could get

(07:26):
a flavor for some of the world that'sout there, the five foot elevation
level, not the 45 seconds you'llget on CNN or Fox News or whatever.
But to actually get a glimpse of someof the silliness that my wife, God, my
now ex-wife, God bless her, um, put upwith, when her first time outside of
this country was in New Delhi, India.

(07:47):
So, you know, she, that'swho my book is dedicated to.
And a lot of people look at mekind of cross-eyed going, you
dedicated your book to your ex-wife.
What does your currentwife think about that?
Well, that book ends about 10years before I met my current wife.
So she doesn't care either way.
and honestly, I probably would've doneit anyway, even if she did care, because
none of that book, none of what you readwould've been possible without my ex-wife.

(08:12):
So that's why.
I,
I get that.
I think I was laying in bed and Imentioned to my wife, I said, huh, Jeffrey
dedicated this book to his ex-wife.
I said, I bet there's a story there.
And I said, you know what?
I'm gonna ask about it.
You just told the story so Idon't have to ask about it.
I said, because he put it inthe front of his book, so it
opens up the door for me to ask.

(08:32):
But anyway, before we get too farthough, this is where I want to go.
I do agree that as Americans,I believe we're a little bit.
Arrogant about our position inthe world and things like that.
I don't necessarily wantto go down that path.
traveled a good bit and I mean, youknow, you know, when we talk about rose
less travel, I shared with you in thebeginning, my wife and I have essentially

(08:53):
been traveling for the last 12 years.
We've been homeless.
We don't have a home.
We live in this motor coach, and sowe've been traveling all over the
US for six years, but before that wewere in Australia and New Zealand.
And during the nineties I spent time inNew Delhi and Mumbai and places like that.
but I think it would be valuable, Jeffrey,to share maybe some of your favorite

(09:15):
places, what are some places maybethat you would rather not go back to?
Again, not that we're disparaginganybody, but you would.
Probably rather not.
So give a few, few of the highs andlows just of the travel, not jobs and
stuff like that, but just the places.
So I'm gonna give you two examples.
The first one is one of myfavorite countries, which is Oman.

(09:39):
Oman is the country where some peopleclaim Sinbad, the sailor sailed from.
And there's actually a mock-up of his shipon one of the traffic circles in Oman.
The people of Oman are hardworking.
They don't have oil wealth.
So, I mean, they have a tiny bit, butnot like Saudi Arabia or the Emirates.

(10:00):
I made the mistake of asking,the receptionist at the hotel
I was staying in, I think theHyatt Regency in Muscat, Oman.
I asked her what country shewas from and she looked at me
like I had two heads, from Oman.
So they work and theytend to be very polite.
I was on the beach, with my wife,my cousin who was a flight attendant

(10:23):
for United Airlines, a veryattractive lady in her thirties.
And, our two daughters whowould've been, I don't know, 10,
12 years old, something like that.
So we were all on a beach in Omanand, a group of men come riding up on
horseback and the leader of the groupgot off and came over and talked to me.

(10:44):
Of course he's gonna talk to me,he is not gonna talk to the women.
came over and talked to me and said.
My uncle would like to offer 12 camelsfor this young lady pointing to my cousin,
you know, you, you have thatsplit second of, oh my goodness,
what am I gonna do with this?
Well, it was very, everythingwas courteous, okay?

(11:06):
No, nobody shouldmisread anything on this.
They were very courteous,they were very polite.
I was equally courteous back.
I said, you know, we're very honored.
That's a very generous offer,but we're gonna have to decline.
And they said, okay.
And they, and they wrote off.
I have not let my cousin forgetthat I've not let my aunt,
her mother is my godmother.

(11:26):
And so she hasn't forgot that.
So every time my cousin Deb is gonnago visit Jeff someplace, her mother's
like, you know, you gotta be reallycareful going any, any place Jeff
is, you almost got, it's hilarious.
But that's all mine.
That's very friendly country.
Lots of good memories, beautiful beaches.
the markets are great.

(11:47):
It's always been an entree pointfor the Indian subcontinent.
In fact, the Indian Rupe used tobe their currency for a long time.
So it's just a very interesting,very friendly country.
I'll contrast this with whatwas once called the Pearl of the
Mediterranean, and that was Beirut.

(12:10):
And Beirut had all of the positiveinfluence of North Africa.
It had the positive influence from Turkey,it had the positive influence from Iran.
It was a French colony.
You know, it had all thepositive influences and it truly
was the pearl of the Orient.
To this day, Lebanese women arestill considered to be the most

(12:31):
beautiful in the Middle East.
I think that's in somemeasure because the.
Crusaders were nice enoughto drop off blue eyed DNA.
So every now and then you get a verypretty blue eyed Lebanese woman.
And then you fast forward to about 1985when all the Civil War started and I

(12:51):
compare Lebanon to Whitney Houston.
Whitney Houston.
You're old enough toremember when she came out.
Was she not fabulous?
Could that woman not sing?
And she was beautiful as the day islong what the, I think the first song
was called Jump or something like that.
I remember her jumping up a not alot and just phenomenal and beautiful

(13:14):
and it did not end well for her.
Very sadly.
As with Lebanon, it's notending well with them.
So that's where I like to contrastand, and I tell those stories to,
to try and bring it home to people.
'cause everybody in the USknows who Whitney Houston is.
Or was, and, and how most peopleknow, you know, what she was like

(13:34):
when she came out and how talentedand, and they're very sad ending.
So those would be two of my favoritecountries to talk about because
I like Lebanon, I like Beirut.
I had the ability to travelto, to Damascus many times.
when you walk down the street calledstraight and you realize it's written
about in Acts chapter nine, I believe.
walking down a street that's writtenabout in the Bibles, that's gotta

(13:56):
mean something to, to somebody.
Even a, even a miserable Lutheran likeme, we do take, take that part seriously.
So it was always very, verynice to be able to do that.
Yeah, we need to check Ensurewith your in information you could
gather to make sure Bobby Browndidn't visit Lebanon at some point.
the one that messed up.
Whitney Hu.
I believe he messed upWhitney Houston maybe.

(14:17):
Maybe we could blame that on him.
I'm not sure about that.
And then I wanna go back to the Campbellstory though, because what's fascinating
is I'm surprised you didn't negotiate.
It's like 12 camels.
No, but maybe 13.
I guess a bit bigger question,was that like a lucrative offer?
I mean 12 camels, is that a
It was a very generous offer.

(14:38):
Those generous
that was a good offer.
camels are valuable, right?
So, anyway, those point to thecultural differences that I
think we somehow get locked into.
Another thing that you talk about agood bit in your book, and, I guess
this is a good time to ask, is Ithink you are, a strong proponent of
learning the language when you spend

(14:59):
Yes, sir.
time in these places.
And these are not easy languages.
But talk about, just in general, theimportance of, as you go into a culture,
being able to learn and speak, some,if not, all of their language, then
maybe any other specifics that youwant to around the language thing.
But in general, why is it importantto learn the language of a culture

(15:21):
that you're spending time in?
Well, there's really two reasons for it.
The first one is simply respect, and youdon't have to become fluent, in a local
language if you can at least get throughthe greetings, the respectful high.
How are you?
just basic, minimal conversation.

(15:43):
the woman who my book is dedicatedto, as I said, her first time overseas
was New Delhi and her first tripto the market, she came back with
a moldy tomato and said, this isthe only thing that I recognize.
Okay, well, English is a nationallanguage in India, however.
She learned enough of the local languagethat she could go to the shopkeepers

(16:07):
and say, good afternoon, How are you?
And she could say, Iwould like six of these.
Or, how much does that cost?
So just enough to engage them.
So all of a sudden you have a whiteAmerican woman speaking in Hindi
that says a lot to the shopkeeper.

(16:28):
Now he's not gonna giveher the rock bottom price,
that's just not gonna happen.
But at least he's gonnagive her a fair price.
And once she's gone to that same vendor,you know, 3, 4, 10 times and he recognizes
her 'cause she's five foot 10 attractiveyoung woman, he's gonna recognize her when
she comes back and he's gonna make surethat she gets at least what she pays for.

(16:53):
So she's getting good quality he mightoffer and say, no, don't get that one.
Try these over here.
Because that's the way allvendors operate around the world.
Once you are a regular customer,they're gonna take good care of you.
And so you prove that by beingat least able to greet them, say

(17:13):
hello, ask how much, some justfundamentals of conversation.
And you will benefit becausethe people will benefit you.
They were gonna make sure that youhave a good deal, you have a good
day, whatever the case may be.
And you know, if you get into trouble,could be a traffic accident, could be a
trip and fell, whatever it might be thatyou, I'm sure you've been around enough to

(17:35):
know that there's all kinds of trouble youcan get to in this world if you've already
established that you are a respectfulperson because you've learned to speak a
little bit of the language, then there'sgonna be people that are gonna help you.
Out of respect for you.
So they repay that respect.
So that's why the languageis so very important.

(17:55):
I am not a linguist.
you can ask all the people I was, a PeaceCorps volunteer with or overseas with.
Nope, I am not a linguist.
but I could get by, especially whenI was going into, Syria or Lebanon,
because of all we talked about, theblue eye, DNA, they deposited my blue
eyes, didn't automatically mean Iwas a foreigner, and they couldn't

(18:16):
quite figure out my Arabic accent.
So between my blue eyes andmy Arabic accent, they were
like, where's this guy from?
but it wasn't automaticallyassumed that I was American,
and I kind of liked it that way.
learning the language is, as I said,it's an important sign of respect for the
culture and the country that you're in.
And it will benefit you immensely whenyou're dealing with people, whether

(18:40):
vendors or police or what have you.
it will benefit you becauseof the respect you're showing
their language in their country.
Yeah, I have a, and I also think it'shelpful if you're doing business,
negotiating, things like thatjust because you could lose a lot.
I've got, a business that I interactwith and work with a good bit.

(19:01):
Right now we're about to be sending agroup of people, I'm not going with them.
They're going over toTaiwan and then to China.
fortunately we have an employee withour company who is Chinese originally.
and she's been in the States fora while, so she's going to help
us greatly because there's somenegotiating that's going on in this.

(19:22):
And so, that's important.
I love the word you use, it justshows And I, I get discouraged
when I see Americans as you travelWhatever the opposite of respect is,
disrespect, obnoxiousness, whatever.
They show that as tourist and travelersto, to me, it sounds as if my wife

(19:44):
and I say this about ourselves,we're really not good tourists.
We do travel and we go places, but welike to hang out and spend time there.
Sounds to me like you're not reallya tourist, you're a traveler.
You go places and youintegrate into those places.
Absolutely.
if I just wanna see things, I can sit homeon the TV and see things, but I want to

(20:08):
connect with the people that I'm visiting.
You know, I lived in Thailand.
And I would go to the markets, and Thaiis a very difficult language, trust me.
But just being able tosay, hello, how are you?
there's, I don't know if you knowwhat, it's called Stinky Fruit.
It's got a more formal name.
I can't think of whatit's called right now.

(20:28):
but it's very tasty and it's very smelly.
Hotels won't let you putit in their refrigerators.
but you know, you go there andyou say, I'd like some of this.
And once you've made that connection,obviously I'm gonna stick out in Thailand.
I'm a six foot two white boy from America.
I'm gonna stick out.
So they're gonna see me coming, they'regonna recognize me, and they're gonna
know probably what I'm coming to buy,and they're gonna be able to give me

(20:51):
good guidance 'cause I'm a good customer.
Why not take care of thisguy who's respectful?
So yeah, that, that bit of respectin the languages is very important.
Yeah, that's good.
And, one of the things in your storythat I don't hear that often anymore.
I used to hear it more, and that's justpeople that have experienced with the
Peace Corps and so I think it would bevaluable for me and probably the listener

(21:18):
just, know, give just a brief, you know,you don't have to tell the whole story
of all that you did there, the PeaceCorps is one of these organizations that,
Kennedy early sixties had apurpose, and you obviously
have benefited greatly from it.
I'm sure it still exists.
I just haven't heard much from it.

(21:39):
What can you educate us onthe Peace Corps, just so that
we understand more about it?
Sure.
the Peace Corps, as yousaid, was set up by Kennedy.
Sergeant Shriver was the firstdirector and it was designed
with three tenants in mind.
First.
Take American values and demonstratethem at the village working level.

(22:02):
Second, take English languageand develop it in the countries
where we wanna do business.
Third, bring the culture of whatevercountry you go to back to the United
States and educate the Americans.
I was, I was working on farm machinery.

(22:24):
I was an agriculture mechanicand in Tunisia, I would've been
20 years old when I got there.
Would you like to guess on how interestedthese farmers were and what some
20-year-old white boy from America had tosay about how they used their equipment?
Not even a zero.
If I hit a zero, it was a good day.
They had no interest in what I had to say,and they had their reasons for doing it.

(22:49):
And one of the toughest lessons that youlearn in the Peace Corps and you learn a
lot about yourself is what do people need?
What's important?
And you have a lot oftime for self-reflection.
I can assure you of that as you'retrying to, you know, me, I'm
sitting out in some little villageI had electricity, but that's it.

(23:09):
There was no tv.
You read books.
and we made friends.
So I was able to do both of those things.
I studied Arabic more when I was there,in fact, compliments of the internet.
I just got contacted about a yearago by my old Arabic instructor.
And so we, we've reconnected.
At any rate, the Peace Corps, the wholeidea behind it is to put the best American

(23:31):
values, the value that's contributory.
We're giving you, you'repaid a little bit.
you're paid a living stipend.
Not just enough to renta house and eat food.
Obviously if there was any kindof emergency, a medical emergency,
you are nominally a US employee.
Government employee.
So the US government through theembassy's gonna take care of you.

(23:52):
That's a given.
Short of that, you'repretty much on your own.
You're on your own to make the kind ofimpact you wanna make, to deal with the
farmers the way you wanna deal with them.
for me, and then we hadguys that dug water wells.
We have a lot of English teachers.
In fact, English teachers were myfavorite 'cause they were mostly female.
And once again, let's goback to being 20 years old.

(24:13):
so, that's the contributionthat they make.
And, and it's, again, it's not terriblyoften that you go into a village and
you see a 20, 22, 23, 24, 20 5-year-oldor or older American working in that
village, living with the villagers.
It is not a perfect organization,and no one should think that

(24:33):
it's not a perfect experience.
I mean, people leave Peace Corpsearly because they're not getting
what they want, and that's fine.
it's not a military organization.
Yeah.
It is largely an organizationthat is what you make of it,
do they still exist andare they strong now?
I just haven't heardmuch from them recently.
actually.
as I mentioned, my current wifeis Ugandan, and I can assure you

(24:55):
that the Peace Corps is activein Uganda because I was there.
they actually invited me to,one of their big gatherings.
the law as written is you can go frombeing in the Peace Corps to being in the
CIA, but you cannot go the other way.
So I could go there and show up and shakehands and make nice, but they wouldn't
let me work for them, which is fine.

(25:16):
That wasn't what I was looking for.
but they are.
Still very active.
They tended to, in Uganda, they'restill working in agriculture.
they work in fisheries.
No, they're not quite as prominent now.
And I suspect these days in the USgovernment, everybody's keeping their
head down ' cause they don't wantit to go along with their budget,

(25:37):
you know, get cut, so to speak.
but yes, they're still very much there.
They are a part of the State departmentor an office of the State Department.
So they're very active, as I said, inEastern Europe and former Soviet Bloc.
I believe they're more involvedin small business developments,
but they're still active there.

(25:57):
Trying to think if they were in Thailandwhen I was there and I don't remember.
I think they were.
So yeah, they're still out there.
They're still doing things.
and again, for me, peace Corpsoffered me several escapes.
Number one, I could get awayfrom my family who were crazy.
divorce, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(26:19):
But it also offered me the opportunityto see places at the government expense
that I would never see on my own.
I had to work for a living, youknow, I had to make a contribution.
I had to have some skillthat I could offer.
And in return, they basicallysaid, okay, you go live here,
call us at the end of two years.
and you did what you made of it inGabon, which is right on the equator.

(26:43):
that was a different environment.
I was on an agriculture projectand I supervised the equipment
for about a dozen volunteers thatwere specialized in agriculture.
And so I helped keep allthe, the machinery working.
And again, it's phenomenal experience.
I'm living in a little townin the middle of Africa.

(27:03):
And the only reason I hadelectricity was I controlled
the generator for the project.
So we ran a cable.
One of the pictures you'll seein my book is, is us running the
cable all the way across town.
And I had to get overthe big intersection.
So we put a gigantic pole up thereto, to carry the cable to my house.
but in that kind of environment,you basically have two choices.

(27:26):
You can pull in and not do anything.
Or you can put yourself out there.
Take your risk yourself riskembarrassment or whatever.
There's no harm's not gonna come to you.
but you'll risk maybe embarrassing, youknow, again, there I had to learn French
and, there were plenty of challenges.
plenty of bathroom challenges,upset stomach challenges.

(27:49):
While I was in Gabon, the driver forthe agriculture project I was on.
he owned a small farm 'causethey all own small farms.
he said to me one day that he wasgonna go clear the land and would I
like to go with him, which translatedinto go chop down trees with him.
And so sure, you know, what am I?
You, let's go do it.

(28:10):
And so we went out there, wespent the day chopping down trees.
At the end of the day, I hadso many blisters on my hands,
I could barely use them.
However, he would take my handand show it to everybody on the
workforce at the agriculture projectand say, do you see these blisters
that he got clear and land for me?

(28:31):
This guy's a stud.
Those blisters got me morecredibility than any number of college
degrees could have ever gotten me.
The fact that I could work and sweatand suffer alongside a guy who had.
maybe a fourth grade education.
I mean, because of that, that'show you generate connections.

(28:55):
Anybody can talk.
How many people are gonna get outthere and swing an ax all day?
That's the difference.
that's what Peace Corps lets us do.
It puts us in the field.
It puts us side by side with peoplewho maybe, remember that white boy
that was there from America that helpedclear the land so many years ago.
And, oh, you should have seenall the blisters on his hand.
I don't know.

(29:15):
But certainly that's why Peace Corps isthere to make that impression on people.
And then to bring back thesekind of stories to say,
Capone's a wonderful place.
No, they don't reallyhave very much money.
They're mostly pretty poor, but theysure do have a respectable life.
They're happy.
they love to drink anddance all night long.

(29:36):
and they're drinking cheap beer.
While the government makes sure thebeer is cheap, for obvious reasons.
drunk dancing people are easier togovern than sober, not dancing people.
So yeah, that, benefited me,it benefited them, and it cost
the taxpayer next to nothing
I'm getting paid a hundred bucks a monthmaybe, and, you know, a little bit of

(29:56):
housing, a little bit of transport.
If you bundled all together, you'relooking at what, $5,000 for this
guy to go sit in the jungle fortwo years and make America known to
people who had never known America.
If it wasn't for meeting Peace Corpsvolunteers like me and my colleagues,
I'm not trying to hold myself above them.
I was not.
but the other folks who were thereworking and we all had different
strengths and all of our weaknesses cameout, I can assure you, just because of

(30:21):
sitting in the jungle by yourself for3, 4, 5, 6 months, it can be stressful.
But we had to learn to deal withthat and it was all that together.
This is why I think the PeaceCorps is a great experience.
You got a kid that's just graduatedfrom college, doesn't know what to
do or whatever, just lost his job andthey're Flo around for a new direction.

(30:41):
Look at the Peace Corps.
They will put you to work and they'll takecare of you and your life will be changed.
that's really good.
that was a good PR promohere for Peace Corps.
We might bundle that up and seeif we could do something with it.
you've mentioned a couple times,and also this is prevalent in
your book, is that you, I thinkyou used the exact word escape.
You were looking to escape fromwhere you were in Ohio and your

(31:03):
family This is what crossed my mindwhile I was reading through it.
When I went through some tough stuffafter oh eight we actually lost our
home and stuff like that, we wentthrough quite a financial challenge.
My wife and I started traveling and Ihad somebody ask me one time, They go,
are you running away from somethingor are you running to something?

(31:25):
I've looked back onthat and I believe that.
Often, there was a season thatI was running away, but then at
some point there was a click whereno, I was then running something.
So I'm gonna kind of posethat question to you.
I know early on you were runningaway and maybe even you continued.
Are you still running away?

(31:45):
Are you now running too or, and atwhat point did that change or shift
in your life, if that is the case?
That's a phenomenal question.
without question, I was running awaywhen I started at the age of 20.
I. I did my best to stay away from Ohio.
Even when I was back in the States,I had two daughters, and so we had

(32:06):
to take them to my grandmother'sonce a year, and I stayed in Ohio
for just as short a time as possible.
Now, I transitioned from running awayfrom a life that I did not really like to
two, running towards my next adventure.

(32:29):
And I'm not trying to push my book, butwhat the last sentence in that book is cry
havoc and let loose the Dogs of Adventure.
That's a modification ofShakespeare, which is cry havoc
and let's slip the dogs of war.
I don't want war, I want adventure.
So am I running two more adventure?
Absolutely every chance I get, that's oneof the things that makes my wife crazy.

(32:51):
Makes my kids crazy.
Where's dad going now?
I don't know.
I'm going someplace because I'm not ayoung man anymore, and I'm gonna keep
chasing adventure for as long as I can.
And if I'm blessed, rightnow I'm 66 years old.
I'm in good health, and, we're lookingat going back to Uganda here in a

(33:12):
couple of months and we'll see whatkinds of adventures come from there.
I've been very blessed because I livedin Uganda for a year where I was head of
the, third largest security company there.
But I met some goodpeople, some great people.
One of the great people thereis a gentleman by the name of
Daniel Lamar, who was a comedian,a real life standup comedian.
He was best man in my wedding.

(33:33):
Hilarious guy.
I met a, TV personality.
She currently has herown TV show there now.
And so I've already reached out tothem and said, Hey, I'm coming back to
Uganda for my next adventure becausethe adventure here in Tampa, Florida
has pretty much played itself out.
and I'm used to the weather here.
I'm gonna go do something new.
So, I'm just lookingat the next adventure.

(33:56):
the lady has already said, okay, I wantyou to start doing content creation.
That's a lot harder than it sounds.
So I sent her some of the stuffI'd already written, on leadership,
on how to persuade people, thingsthat are from my background.
So we can start working on that.
And I'll work with the comedianwho's a good personal friend of mine.
I've helped him out of some tough spots.
we've had a lot of fun together.

(34:17):
And so I'll go back there andsee what my next adventure is I'm
very much looking forward to it.
I think everybody defines adventuredifferently, and that's okay.
Whatever your adventure is.
Let loose the dogs ofadventure and chase it.
If it's going to the grocery store, makethat your adventure, whatever, it doesn't
matter, but chase your adventure becauseif you sit back and let the adventure

(34:42):
get away from you, it's your loss.
But if you go after it and youtrip and fall on your face 10
or 20 times, I've done that.
That's just all part of the adventure.
so I encourage people to follow theiradventure no matter how small it is.
You guys are on your ownadventure driving around in an rv.
I'm kind of jealous.

(35:03):
I wish I could.
You know, you wanna stay inmy house for a year and I'll
drive your RV around for a year.
You let me know if you wanna do that.
What works Something out.
We have to not be afraid of challenges.
That's not to say that, that welive in a perfect world and that
we'll master every one of them.
I, my first marriage failed after two anda half decades, so no, I'm not perfect.

(35:23):
and yes, the book is infact dedicated to her.
So we need to experience adventure.
That is what will keep us going.
And I'm not talking WatsonTV experience adventure.
I'm talking go camping here inthe, in the state of Florida.
We're blessed to have lotsof places to go camping.
Gotta watch out for the Gators.

(35:45):
gotta be smart.
But there's plenty of placeswhere you can go for a hike
in the woods, in this country.
And you can have your ownadventure as you define it and
enjoy life and then cry havoc.
Let's slip the dogs of adventure.
I love that, and you know, obviouslyyou're talking to someone who has maybe
a little bit different lifestyle also,Can you sit and be still for of time?

(36:12):
Is there a link that you've noticed?
'cause I have noticed that I, I don'twant say adventure, but sometimes
adrenaline can be like a drug
Mm-hmm.
are addicted to it.
And I don't know that adventurecould be similar, I guess.
But what have you noticedabout your rhythms?
Obviously you're mature,you're in good health.
I'm 61, so at an age where a lot ofpeople, a lot of our associates are done.

(36:35):
And when I say done, they'redone in a lot of ways.
I don't really feel that now.
I don't go with the pace I once did.
but what would you say if I say,can you be still for a season?
It sounds like you have been for a littlewhile and it's now time to go correct.
I used to get what my, my nowex-wife would call sticky feet.

(36:56):
You know, my feet startsticking to the ground.
It's like, okay, I've been here too long.
time to go, time to see what's next.
And, and yeah, if I have a good reason.
I mean, I was berated by my now ex-wifebecause when I was planning to go back
overseas, I had just established arelationship with my youngest daughter
and her daughter, my granddaughter.

(37:17):
she was very displeasedwith me for doing it.
Then she's thought I needed the same.
We don't talk very often.
In fact, I think that's the onlyconversation we've had in a long time.
and she excoriated me forthat, and she was right.
I needed to pay attention to developingthe relationship with my granddaughter.
So my granddaughter will know who I amor who I was or whatever the case may be.
And she was right.
So yes, there are always reasonsto be thoughtful about what

(37:42):
you're doing and make sure thatit is the right thing for you.
And it's not the rightthing for everybody.
Not everybody should live overseas.
Not everybody should bea Peace Corps volunteer.
Not everybody should be a podcast host.
you need to find theniche that you fit in.
But when you find that niche, you needto also make sure you can enjoy it.
I mean, if you've got my book and I knowyou do, my favorite picture is that one.

(38:08):
'cause that's what 45 years looks like.
And, I've had people look at it andgo, who's the guy with all the hair?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Smack, smack, smack.
so yes, I, I, I think I. I can sitstill, I would obviously sit still for my
daughter or my granddaughter, either mydaughters or my grandchildren, obviously.
my sister maybe probably my two brothers.

(38:31):
Probably not.
That's just not the way it is.
But that's okay.
The thing about this country and theAmerican persona, if I can use that term,
and that's a really broad term, I realizeI'm really going into a minefield here.
Americans is, are, arehighly mobile people.

(38:56):
We don't live in our family home.
Many places in Europe, they live inthe fa in the home they grew up in.
So we're a highly mobile people.
Jobs are easily transported.
Sometimes that meansthe job gets taken away.
Sometimes that means wehave to go find a job.
But I think we have so many opportunitiesin this country to look at so many

(39:18):
different things, to see so much oflife and to experience so much of life
that unfortunately we think we can seeit on tv and that's just not the case.
so I like, I do like to travel.
I do like to move.
Can I stay in one placefor 2, 3, 4, 5 years?
Yeah, I can.
I have, I gotta mix it up once in a whileand go out and get in trouble somehow.

(39:43):
it depends on what's keeping me there.
we all make the decisions that we make formy daughter and granddaughter, of course.
We have people all the time ask us thisquestion, when are you gonna settle down?
I kind of get a little bit irritatedby that because I'm like going,
I don't know that I ever will airquotes here for those listening.
I do wanna say this though.
This is interesting.
We are in our RV right now andwe are in the alley behind our

(40:08):
daughter's home in Colorado Springsvisiting our five-year-old and
three-year-old granddaughters.
And last night I went to the valetrecital and we kind of can combine
it, you know, we're migratingnorth now as the weather changes.
So, we do have to kind of, Iguess, balance those type things.

(40:29):
Jeff, I must admit, was something thatyou, first of all, the CIA, we're gonna
talk about that before we wrap up here.
But I wanna talk a little bit about allof your trips to Damascus I'm a Bible
guy and there's, there are stories inthe Bible, a lot of 'em that fascinate
me, there is one in particular thatyou highlight and you have walked these

(40:51):
streets, you've been to this place.
And so I wanna preface it.
I've actually got the Bibleopen right here to Acts nine.
it's the, it's, they say that hisname was changed from Saul to Paul.
It technically wasn't.
It was just a different, youknow, it was basically who was
talking to him at the time.
But someone who was killingChristians goes to Damascus, has

(41:12):
an experience and it changes.
And then I'm really fascinatedby this guy, Ananias.
So you've got someonethat had been killing.
Looking for probably you.
'cause he was a disciple in that area.
And the Lord speaks to him and says,okay, I want you to go see this
person, Saul Paul, and minister to him.
And I'm going, what the heck wouldyou, if you were Ananias, what

(41:36):
would be going through your head?
But have been there, walk the streets,been to the chapel, all in this area.
What do we need to knowabout this geographic area?
Ha.
Is it just a cool spot?
What do you wanna tell usabout the road to Damascus?
It is.

(41:57):
First, let's caveat pray thatthe current political situation
there fixes itself soon.
The Assad family, Haasz and emBashar, they were dictators,
they were not nice people.
They did, however, protect religiousminorities in Syria because the
alloys were a religious minority.

(42:19):
So he did, they did a good job of that.
I just wanna just put that, prefacethat now back to Damascus itself.
Damascus, in the first a hundredyears of Christianity was the
second most important city in theChristian world, only after Jerusalem.
So when you read about whoevergot converted to whoever, however
you wanna call their names,in Acts chapter nine, anus.

(42:44):
The reason he did that, accordingto my reading, Is he had a vision
from Jesus who said, go do this.
Now, I don't think I've had avision from Jesus in my lifetime.
I hope if I do, number one, I recognizeit, and number two, I act accordingly.
So I think he was acting accordingly,and you have many, many religious

(43:07):
people in that part of the world.
Remember, Islam did not exist at the time.
There was only Judaism and Christianity,and then Christianity was brand new.
So Damascus is, I think, the oldest,continuously inhabited city in the world.
If it's not the first, it's the second.

(43:28):
It's been around a long, long time.
So that history gives it alot of fascination for me,
it's importance in religion.
When you read the story as youcontinue reading that Bible story.
He was lowered over the wall so thatthe Jews would not kill him after

(43:48):
his conversion to Christianity.
Every time I went there, I went toSt. Paul's Chapel and I lit a candle.
I'm Lutheran.
We don't like candles.
I went and lit a candle everytime and said a prayer every time.
So it to, to be able to overemphasizethe importance of just that sectional

(44:11):
wall to our Christian faith, I don't, Idon't think you can overemphasize that.
That's where he was lowered over the wall.
When you go down the street calledstraight, just inside, it's called
Beb Sharkey, which is the city gateright there that the street called
straight goes on about 700 yards offto the right down the street is St.

(44:33):
Paul's Underground Chapel.
And you can go in there and youcan go to the chapel underground.
That chapel's been there 2000 years.
My goodness.
Come on.
How much more influence, howmuch more of an impact could
you have on your own faith?
And we all deal withour faith individually.

(44:54):
You do it your way.
My wife is Catholic andshe's married to a Lutheran.
So trying to figure out whichone of us is the heretic here.
Although my pastor does say thatCatholics make the best Lutherans.
You have to laugh about that ifyou understand what she's saying.
You do good.
So, the, the influence that'sSyria and Damascus had on

(45:14):
Christianity cannot be overstated.
As you go north out of Damascus,you come to a town called Aya.
This is where you have monasteries thatwere built by Emperor Justinian, the
first in about the year 400 again BeforeMohammed was a twinkle in his daddy's eye.
they built these monasteriesand just to visit them.

(45:39):
If again, if it's not inspirationalto you, then you need to
kind of look a little harder.
And these used to be big pilgrimagelocations in that part of the world
because there were so many, of thesemonasteries built at that time.
This one monastery, I think it's calledOur Lady of S, in there, number one,

(45:59):
there's a painting of the Holy Mother doneby the Apostle Luke, done by St. Luke.
So he painted a picture of Marian thatis hanging in that monastery and you
know how steps wear with time to getthese little depressions in them when
they're, you know, hundreds of years old.

(46:20):
Apparently some time agothey were carrying a vat of
olive oil up those steps.
And some of the oil spilled out intoone of those depressions and they saw a
vision of the holy mother in that oil.
So now when you go visit, you go into themonastery, you go down into the basement,

(46:41):
'cause that's where they keep the oil.
That's also where the prayer roomis, where you can go, you write
out what kind of prayer for whom,and you stick it in the wall.
They will dip a little wad ofcotton into that same va of oil
that they saw the virgin mother in.
Put a little Ziploc bag andgive it to you to take home.
Now, I'm not saying that that oilis a little bit dilute right now,

(47:05):
but it's not the oil that counts,it's the symbolism that counts.
the symbolism that comes with taking avat of oil where they saw an image of
the holy mother, again, I'm Lutheran.
We don't worship Holy mother.
but that doesn't make her any lesssignificant to me as a Christian.
So I get to take that littlebit of oil home with me.

(47:27):
So these are some of the places in Syria.
That's how important that place is.
As I said, we gotta pray to Godthat, that they'll stop killing
each other soon and that we can goback to having tourists go to Syria.
'cause it is a fascinating country.
As I said, Damascus is soimportant to our history.
Our, our cultural and our religioushistory can't be overemphasized.

(47:50):
And you know, when you're walking down astreet that's written about in the Bible,
that's kind of gotta get your attention.
And when you go into St.
Paul's underground Church, come on,that doesn't have an impact on you.
it's just a fascinating city.
The people are as nice as the day is long.
I never had any issues there.
My now ex-wife and two daughterswent with me on one trip there

(48:12):
and they were so well treated.
So courteous.
it was awesome.
I love the history and one of thethings this is, I think this is speaking
to, we'll call it US Christians.
We've been beaten up on folks.
Let's just keep going, I guess, is thatthey will read the Bible and they'll read
the Bible as if it was, you know, directlywritten to them and without any context.

(48:36):
And I love that you wereable to frame some context.
this real location that Saul Paul wastransformed and that it is in scripture.
I mean, it's right here in front of me.
And then Paul went on to writea majority of the New Testament.
That is, is so incredible.

(48:57):
wanna shift just a littlebit in our last few minutes
Sure.
we've got this CIA thing that's beenkind of lingering over the conversation
that is also very attractive abouthistory and things like that.
It's like, okay, these threeletter agencies, are bashing them.
We're bashing 'em in the media andthe press and, and there could be real

(49:17):
reason why they, they they need to be.
But whatever you can.
Tell us about experience, and I knowthere's some things you can't tell
and, and I guess maybe let me askit in a little bit different way.
What should we be asking aboutthe CIA, what are some things that
I should be asking that I may bemissing that I'm trying to do?

(49:40):
The things that I'm hearing in thepress as I tell me about all the,
the y'all, you know, you broughtyour propaganda in and changed the
governments and this kind of stuff.
Tell, tell me what I shouldbe asking about the CIA.
My initial response goes back to myopening comment that has to do with the
caliber of the people working in theCIA, the sacrifices that they and their

(50:04):
families make, in the CIA yeah, it'sa government bureaucracy job, but they
go to places that are not necessarilynice places to go, under Carter.
And, you know, the PEACE dividendis that when that came out, And
they start shutting down officesand consolidating offices.
And then nine 11 happened andthey realized that they'd made

(50:25):
a mistake of consolidation.
So I think it's important torecognize that the people that serve
overseas, they may be working outof an embassy and they may have the
security of being part of the embassy.
But that doesn't mean that they don'trisk their lives when they go out to do a

(50:47):
mission, when they go out on an operation.
In the past, countries generallydo not execute other countries.
Intelligence officers, however,terrorist organizations will,
um, even the incarceration, yeah,you're gonna get arrested if you get
caught by the Chinese and you'll beunhappy, or which pick a country.

(51:11):
I don't mean to pick on a Chinese,uh, you'll, they'll be unhappy for a
while, uh, a week, two weeks, a month,a couple months, but you'll be fine.
So I think we need to recognizethe sacrifices that they make.
Let me see if I can bring homeone of the activities that I was

(51:32):
very involved with when I was asenior officer at headquarters.
We work very hard to prevent.
The sale and distribution ofweapons, of mass destruction.
We're talking missile technology,nuclear, chemical, biological weapons.

(51:54):
That is a very serious issue.
And my last job was to supervise theidentification and prevention of the
movement of some of these materials.
And I will give you an example.
I had an analyst come to me and say,we have a ship that is moving materials

(52:20):
from someplace in the far east tosomeplace in the Middle East, and we
don't want those materials to go there.
And this officer said to me, youknow, it's already on its way.
I don't know if there'sanything that we can do.
so I'm not sure what to do.
And my response given to her, andI'd worked with this officer for

(52:41):
probably two years by this time,so she knew me and I knew her.
And so I very pointedly, but politelysaid, we swing at every pitch.
So you get the emails out to everyplace along this possible route, and
you find this material and you stop it.
And again, I was polite, butthat those were her orders.

(53:04):
And I said to her, if you have anytrouble getting the emails outta the
building, it's actually cable traffic andit goes through a long approval process.
If you have any trouble getting thecables out, you come see me and I will
go fix whatever's blocking the road.
And she said, okay.
The next morning she came tome and said, chief, we got it.

(53:25):
We got it.
And we turned it around.
So she got an award for that.
What had I done?
I had empowered her to fail.
Failure is something thatwe don't like to talk about.
Nobody wants to fail.
Thomas Edison invented the light bulb,invented how not to invent the light bulb.
I think a thousand times before heinvented how to invent the light bulb.

(53:47):
Did he fail?
No.
He simply invented somethingthat was of no use to anybody.
So we have to accept failure aspart, as a path to our success.
If we let failure stopus, then failure wins.
But if we simply redoit, then we can continue.

(54:09):
And that's, that was that lesson.
She got an award for it, and off she went.
Yeah, that's good.
And so much of me wants tojust keep digging, but know
this one thing fascinating.
I wonder if the ca gets excitedwhen they find out that one of their
former employees is writing a book.
I'm gonna hold it up here.
I'm sure they love that, don't they?
They have to approve it.

(54:30):
yeah,
to approve it.
explain the title to me.
I'm holding up for those on the video, but
Yeah, sure.
that human INT for Humanity, A
Humin.
into the World, less Traveled.
Explain that and then I've got aquestion or two before we wrap up.
Sure.
Human stands for human Intelligence.

(54:52):
That was what we collect in the CIA.
We collect intelligencefrom human sources.
Cient is signals intelligence.
That's what the NSA collects.
They vacuum up everyelectronic signal out there.
They put it on a bigcomputer and they look at it.
So Elint is electronics intelligence.

(55:12):
Osint is open source intelligence.
That's where the analysts get to readthe newspaper, So this book is Human
Intelligence for Humanity because.
I want to try and bring to peoplethe human perspective of what
many places we've talked about, acouple of 'em already, many places

(55:34):
in the world are like, what isit like in the jungles of Gabon?
What was it like for my wife goingto the post office in New Delhi?
What was it like traveling to manyof the countries I've been to,
I'm not very complimentary withone of our biggest allies in the
region, which is Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is, a tough place.
Don't kid yourself.

(55:54):
so that's why I wrote the book becauseI wanted to try and color in gaps that
you're not going to see any place else,you're not gonna get to read about the
challenge that my cousin had with the guyscoming up on the beach in Oman, whether
my wife had to deal with going to themarket in New Delhi for the first time.

(56:15):
Or those are not the kind of challengesthat you'll read about or see in a
James Bond movie or on CNN or Fox News.
I don't mean to pick on either of them.
but you're not just not gonna seeit because there's, that's not what
they're, that's not what they do.
So the idea behind this book, mymotivation was to try and color

(56:37):
in the gaps that I know are there.
They're there because I can see them.
'cause I've actually been to these places.
I've been tooma, I've been toYemen, what a terrible place.
and yet these are countries we readabout all the time in the newspaper.
But if we don't have a really goodflavor for what they're talking about,

(56:58):
because we only believe what we see onthe news, and I'm sure you would agree
that you can find a news broadcastfor every political belief out there.
So what I'm trying to do is bring a,a little bit different perspective.
I try not to push an agendaon either side, because that's
not what the book is about.
I do talk about my work in theagency because of my admiration for

(57:20):
the agency, and for the employees.
I think I've made it clear the respectI have for the people that I work there.
What I haven't made clear is thedisrespect I have for some of the
leadership we've had in the past.
the rank and file, they do great thingsand I wanted to bring this book home
to people so they can see, they canread when we talk about Saudi Arabia.

(57:41):
'cause I think Trump, wasn't he justin Saudi Arabia along with being Qatar?
I think so.
When we talk about Saudi Arabia, I meanyou got these princely guys and you know,
Saudi Aramco and oil money, but nobodyreally digs down deep and looks at some
of the sad things, let's call it that,that have happened in Saudi Arabia.
They had a girl school catch fireand they kept them locked in there

(58:05):
because they didn't have on theirheadscarves and a bunch of them died.
That's Saudi Arabia.
Think about that.
That's one of our biggestallies in the Middle East.
Right?
I hope that when they read that,that sticks in somebody's craw.
'cause that's why I wrote it.
'cause I want to try and color in thehuman angle, the human intelligence

(58:28):
of some of these places and bringhumanity back to the forefront.
So we make decisions based on humanity.
Yeah.
And I could tell that you're,and I think this is cool you,
this comes across in the book.
You're quite the storyteller.
I've enjoyed it herebecause you've done that.
I'm sure Amazon, any other way to
Yeah.
you, if someone wants to, Amazon thebest place to go to get the book.

(58:50):
The Amazon, you can get the book.
I have a website.
It is Jeffrey, s as in Scott Ano.
So it's jeffrey s ano.com is my website.
they can get the bookon Amazon, as you said.
They can connect with me through there.
I would encourage people toread the reviews that are up.
so far I've gotten one four.

(59:12):
I don't know why they didn't put anycomments, but the rest are all fives
and I would encourage you to go backand put your comments in there as well.
That helps other readersknow what to expect.
Yeah, I'll go in and give a review.
I appreciate it.
The book is Human Meant for Humanity,holding up my copy here on my Kindle,
A journey into the world Traveled.
No doubt that Jeffrey Sano has liveda life and is continuing to live

(59:36):
a life, of a less traveled person.
I appreciate you being here, Jeffrey.
This has been a great conversation.
If you've been listeningin, go check out the book.
I'm gonna go leave a review for you,Jeffrey, so I'll go in and do that.
And uh, and I know that as anauthor, we all appreciate that
we are seek go create here.
We've got new episodes every Monday.
I appreciate you listening in onYouTube or all the podcast platforms

(59:59):
and all that you're doing there.
I appreciate it.
And uh, and again, checkout all of Jeffrey's stuff.
We will see everyone nextweek on See Go create.