January 27, 2025 • 59 mins
Are you curious about how biblical principles can shape business ethics and personal growth? Join us in an enlightening conversation with Herbert Burns, an educational and biblical consultant dedicated to fostering character development and guiding faith-based businesses. Discover how integrating faith into education and business can make a powerful impact, and learn practical steps to create a spiritually fulfilling and ethically sound enterprise. Tune in to hear Herbert's unique insights and transformative experiences that could redefine the way you approach leadership and business.
"Too many ministers are locked into the pulpit. They need to carry their ministry out into the community." - Herbert Burns
Access all show and episode resources HERE
About Our Guest:
Herbert Burns is a seasoned educational and biblical consultant hailing from Cleveland, Ohio. With a robust background as a prison chaplain and a focus on urban youth, Burns specializes in manhood and character development among at-risk youth and offers guidance to faith-based businesses striving to adhere to biblical principles. His work is deeply rooted in a legacy of faith, influenced by his family’s rich history in the AME church. Through his insightful integration of faith into education and business ethics, Herbert Burns has become a pivotal figure in promoting biblically-driven leadership and business conduct.
Reasons to Listen:
- Biblical Business Insights: Gain unique perspectives on how biblical principles can reshape business ethics and foster personal growth. Herbert Burns shares actionable advice for faith-based businesses.
- Legacy and Leadership: Explore the inspiring journey of Herbert Burns, from his roots in a strict AME church to his impactful work as a prison chaplain and educational consultant. Discover how his legacy influences his mission today.
- Manhood and Character Development: Learn about the importance of character development and biblical manhood, particularly for at-risk youth. Herbert offers practical strategies for parents and community leaders.
Episode Resources & Action Steps:
- The Bible (Specifically King James Version 1611): Herbert discusses the importance of using the King James Bible of 1611 for its accurate terminologies, particularly in relation to the discussion of slavery and servanthood.
- Connect with Herbert: Email: herbertburnsnumber7@yahoo.com, Phone: 216-563-2031
- Books of the Bible Referenced:
- Colossians Chapter 4: Significance of treating employees fairly and equally.
- Micah Chapter 6, Verse 8: Outlines the biblical definition and requirements of manhood.
- John Chapter 5, Verses 46-47: Christ’s affirmation of the importance of Mosaic Law.
- Second Timothy Chapter 3, Verse 16: Importance of all scripture being divinely inspired by God.
- Ephesians Chapter 6, Verse 9: Importance of respect in business conduct.
Action Steps for Listeners
- Seek Biblical Guidance for Business Practices: Herbert emphasizes the need for faith-based business owners to familiarize themselves with biblical laws, statutes, and commandments as outlined in Exodus and Leviticus. He suggests integrating these principles into their business ethics and practices to ensure fairness and righteousness.
- Engage in Community Outreach: Reflecting on the example set by his grandfather, Herbert encourages ministers and business leaders to extend their outreach activities beyond their immediate circle. This involves physically going...
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
he extended his ministry andtook it out into the community.
(00:04):
So I see too many ministers who werejust locked into the pulpit who were
just locked into the brick and mortar.
And they actually need to deal with whatJesus did and the disciples did and carry
their ministry out into the community
Uh.
(00:30):
How can biblical principles reshapebusiness ethics and personal growth?
Join us today on Seek, Go, Create theleadership journey as we welcome Herbert
Addison Burns, an educational andbiblical consultant from Cleveland, Ohio.
Herbert specializes in fosteringmanhood and character development
among at risk youth and providesguidance for faith based businesses
(00:54):
aiming to operate according to biblicalscripture with a legacy rooted in
faith, including service as a prisonchaplain and work with urban youth.
Herbert shares insights on thepowerful impact of integrating
faith into both education and life.
And into business, Herbert,welcome to seek, go create.
(01:16):
Thank you, Tim.
I'm excited to be here this is awonderful opportunity to share what
I have about biblical scripture
Yeah, very good.
We're going to have fun withconversations related to that.
That's what we're all abouthere at seek, go create.
Before we launch though, Iprepped you a little bit.
Let's start off with what used tobe my icebreaker question, but it's
(01:36):
got a little bit of depth to it.
Would you rather answer.
What do you do or who you are go ahead andchoose which one you want to answer as the
first question And just go into the answerand then i'll jump in in a little bit
Yeah, well, you know, we talked aboutthis a little bit before we got started.
(01:57):
So, to be honest and fair aboutit really is a little bit of both.
I'm a man who grew up in a strict church.
My grandfather on my mother'sside, my mother's father was a very
important minister in Cleveland, Ohio.
(02:17):
He actually started.
2 churches, 1 was community and me.
The other 1 was Alan temple.
And the late Bishop, RichardAllen started that church.
And the reason why I'm getting to this,because I grew up in a very strict.
A, and the background, it wasthe kind of environment that.
(02:40):
Is a child coming up hadto go to Sunday school.
And then from there, I'mgoing to pay the service.
then from there I had to gohome and every, every Sunday
was a Thanksgiving dinner.
Every Sunday.
I mean the ham, the rolls, and my motherused to preserve these fruits and she
made these pies and you couldn't really goout and play until everything was ready.
(03:04):
know, so and, and when you'redone you had to go by yourself and
play outside with the other kids.
You couldn't sit around with the adults.
but my grandfather, When he came toCleveland, he came from South Carolina.
He was illiterate.
He grew up on a sharecropper plantation.
so 12 kids.
(03:25):
My mother was the youngest.
he went to school becausehe wanted to learn.
He wanted to be a doctorand a fisherman of men.
And when he decided to go to school atnight gain his literacy skills, he used
to ask my mother which world was which.
And, on in life, I guess, fastforward and I really didn't know,
(03:46):
where I fit into this world.
I just really, had ignored mybackground, my strict background.
But up call that I got, was back in 2000.
I wanted to go into the ministry.
And, I was living inColumbus, Ohio at the time.
I contacted the Ohio Department ofCorrections and they took me on.
(04:10):
They took me through thenormal orientation process.
And most people don't understand this,but a chaplain has a different role.
A chaplain, although you have acertain faith based affiliation,
but you're servicing peoplefrom other faith based groups.
And you have to find a common threadthat's going to really link up whatever,
(04:35):
faith based belief, that they hold on to.
It wasn't hard, because there wereChristians, there were Muslims, and,
most people aren't aware of this,that Muslims do believe in the Bible.
they believe in the Torah, they believe inthe, there's a board, which is the Psalms,
and also the Injil, which is this gospel.
(04:56):
The only difference is that, theydon't believe in the divinity of
our Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.
But you, in order to serve themhelping through their Greek periods,
their trials and tribulations, youhave to find something that's going
to link between what you believe inand what they believe in, in order
to give them spiritual nourishment.
(05:16):
And it was very successful.
So to answer your question,I'm a spiritual person.
I believe in the law of Moses.
I believe in the God of,Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
and I believe in the second Adam,which is Jesus Christ, our Lord,
God, the Savior, that's who I am.
(05:38):
and I love that.
You kind of gave a glimpseinto some of the things.
I want to talk about which is thatlegacy of The church that you came
from because I do think that kindof determines who we are You Often,
you know, where do we come from?
What is, what is our, ourlineage, I guess, legacies.
(05:59):
and I love that it kind ofled you into a ministry role.
So just as a quick fast forward, andthen I may back up a little bit, cause
I want to put some pieces togetherfrom all that you said currently today.
I think you said earlier, you're not doingas much in that prison chaplain role, but
you're working quite a bit with businessowners, from a faith based perspective.
(06:23):
Tell me just a little bit about that.
And then you don't have to give allthe info because I may come back to it
later, but just bring me up to speedwith what you're working on today.
Well, what's going on Tim with, mostbusiness owners, they, operate a business,
even though they say they're a faithbased business, they are not aware of.
(06:45):
The law statutes and commandmentsbecause they're spelled out clearly.
There's actually contracts, in the bookof Exodus and the book of Leviticus
on how a business should operate.
And they don't stepoutside those boundaries.
So what I'm, what I'm doing right nowis I'm bringing forth those contracts.
I'm bringing forth those biblicalcontracts and also the code of conduct.
(07:08):
And what's interesting about that,I had an experience a few years ago.
I was, At a insurance seminar,and, normally during these type
of events that they have certainrepresentatives of these seminars,
and they explain what the companyis their history, their background.
(07:28):
what's required and thepeople who are invited there.
They have to go through certainrequirements, basically, and
meet standards with the company.
Now, 1 of the facilitators andI found this really interesting.
There was a man sitting in front when heintroduced himself, he said that he had
an experience that he was in the military.
(07:51):
So the facilitator said, well,I appreciate your service.
And then after another 20 minutes,he said, again, I appreciate service.
then he said it again.
And then it dawned on me what he did.
That was a code word.
(08:12):
That was a cold word basically tosay or suggest that you meet all the
requirements of our company, will be notonly accepted into our company, but into
this inner circle, good old board networksare not acceptable the eyes of God.
(08:34):
If we go to, efficiency chaptersix, verse nine, God talks about in
the end of that chapter, respect.
Respect means from the Hebrewlanguage, it means actually
putting forth getting in front.
So, who meets the requirements andperforms, acceptable standards to
(08:56):
their company that they're workingfor, employee has the same right
and privileges as anyone else.
If you're after work and you'redrinking around with other Christians
and you're drinking beer and havingfun and slaps on the back, those
types of social characteristicscannot be carried over the business.
Because if you do that, you're actuallybreaking the code of conduct this in the
(09:22):
new Testament and that's having respect.
And God is not going torespect or have respect.
For anyone when they enter the kingdomexcept for those live according
to mosaic law and the teachings ofour Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Right.
So one thing that's intriguing to meis kind of question popped in my mind.
(09:43):
One thing I think that might be valuable.
because with conversations like this,I think it's really easy for us to look
at what people might be doing wrong.
And I do want to discuss that.
I want to look at what some ofthe business leaders and other
leaders might be doing incorrect.
Cause I am sure we could look aroundthe culture today with our politics
(10:07):
and leadership, even in ministry andbusiness, and we could find stuff
wrong, and I do want us to address that.
But what I want to ask you kindof first here, Herb, is what are
some things that you're observing?
That's some leaders,especially in business.
What are some things you'reseeing that they're doing really?
Really well, some thingsthat when you look at it, you
(10:30):
go, wow, that's impressive.
That's good.
I'd love it to be a little morespecific if you could, because I like
to catch people doing stuff, right?
So does anything come to yourmind, anything you want to share?
And then we, I do want to look at someof the things they're doing wrong.
what are some things thatsome leaders are doing right?
That you're, you're seeing out there.
Well, when we go to the book of Colossianschapter four, verse one, when Paul
(10:55):
talks about the master should treatand the master in this case, Let's say
that's the employer and they shouldtreat their servants, equal and fair.
right.
So, when I see owners, basically.
treat everyone now that, ofcourse, we have laws, we have
(11:16):
anti discrimination laws.
when I see, business owners, whenthey're actually treating people,
their employees, regardless of.
The race, regardless of their religion.
I'm not an advocate of the gay community,but we have to treat those people fair.
(11:37):
You have to treat those people equally.
But when I see business owners actuallydoing that, and when another employee
is not treating another coworker oranother employee well, they'll step in.
So what they're doing is they're employingand putting that biblical verse to use.
(12:00):
And really, beyond that,from a legal standpoint, they
really don't have to do that.
But they're creating fair,
peaceful working environment.
And that's love because, Christ saysthat we should love ourselves first.
And if we have love to ourbrother, that means God is in us.
(12:22):
if they're exhibiting and producingan environment of peace, equal
and fair treatment, that meansthey're putting it to use.
That environment is equal, is fair,and also love, because, if we don't
have love for our brother, thenGod is not in us, we're a liar.
(12:43):
one thing related to that, Herb, we'reboth in our sixties, so we're mature.
I'm guessing you've seen a lotof things over the years and
I grew up in the Deep South.
I grew up just outside ofAtlanta in a small town that
got swallowed up by Atlanta.
You mentioned your grandfathercame from South Carolina.
The Deep South obviously hasa lot of issues related to
(13:05):
discrimination and things like that.
My question is Herb, and I don't thinkI'm not trying to lead anything with this.
you be candid as you want to be with mebecause we're brothers in Christ right
here, so we could do this in your 60plus years, we have heard about issues
(13:26):
of discrimination and, and they're notjust race, there are other things too,
you brought them up, there's otherpeople that have different sexual
orientations and there's, you know,the male, female, there's different
things there, but are we getting.
Better or worse when it comesto that issue of discriminating?
(13:48):
I would so love to think we're gettingbetter, but I'm not sure at times.
How do you assess that and what wouldyou like to say about it when I kind
of give you that topic to discuss?
Discrimination, are we getting better?
Or is it getting worse?
When we talk about discrimination, forme, being an African American, I have
(14:11):
to look at it, from that perspective.
when we're talking about, Education rightnow, of course, we have black history
and we're rapidly approaching that month.
black history is not being.
Presented the way it should, because.
Each different local geographicalarea, they had their own story to tell.
(14:34):
Black history for the most part.
We focus on the traditionalleaders we focus on.
Dr.
Martin, the king and Frederick Douglass.
but for me, coming from Cleveland, Ohio,Northeastern Ohio, during the time that
I was small, we had a lot of, segregationin the educational school system.
(14:55):
the children back during that time wereput in very deplorable conditions, so the
parents wanted their children to learnand accommodations that were fitting
for those children to be educated.
And when they actually went out.
picketing the school system,they were confronted by two
different major riots, during thattime period, and, it was awful.
(15:19):
A lot of people were, were hurt,injured, we had domestic terrorism
that was, inflicted by the, the localCleveland police during that time period.
So these things really need tobe brought out and it's not.
a broadside against any particular race,but these tragedies need to be exposed
(15:41):
and also the good things and also thepositive advancements that That, people
in my race have brought forth to makethis a society that's been benefiting
off of these technological advancements.
And to answer your question, in someways, it has gotten better in some ways.
It's gotten more.
So here we have a man just recently2 weeks ago and upstate New York.
(16:06):
know if you heard about it, his namewas Robert Brooks, who was beatily
murdered, and this was on video, thiswas actually on video, and, and, the
CEOs, there were four CEOs who murderedthis man, and no arrests have been made
yet, none, and, people want to always,point the finger at our President elect.
(16:27):
but during the, Camilla Harris Bidenadministration, the murder rate for
innocent black men and women, was onthe rise during this administration.
So, and, none of thoseofficers were arrested.
So, in some ways, with the attitude,with the, perspective of some of
(16:50):
the teachers, with, with some ofthe adults, it has gotten better
maybe on the individual level.
but if we look at, the policedepartments, all across the board,
and I have to basically zero in onOhio, it really hasn't gotten better.
Herb so related to that, I don'twant us to go deep into the political
(17:13):
Realm because I truthfully can arguea lot of different stuff on both
sides and all that I don't know ifit's a this side or that side issue.
This isn't if you ask me Is there?
Something, and I, I'm in general,a less government guy, because I
think when there's more government,there's burdens that come in and
(17:34):
anyway, but that's just my belief.
But is there something at that federalgovernment level that should be done
or I'll give you a few choices here andyou could take it and do whatever you
want to do with, or is it something thatour churches should be involved with?
(17:55):
Or are there, or are businesses,which you and I work with, you know,
is it, is it down at that level?
what are some thingsjust from where you say?
And I know you don't have theanswers because if you did, you
would be the guy in charge, butwhat are just some of your thoughts?
Yes, I got the answer, butnobody's called me up to ask me,
and I'm not going to tell them.
(18:16):
what are your thoughts on that?
Because a lot of people say, oh, thegovernment needs to just enact all
these laws and make people do stuff.
I've seen that, and I don't seethat that works real well, and I
don't know that I see the churchesdoing what I'd love for them to do,
and what are your thoughts on that?
no, there's no right or wrong answer.
if we start from the top, with thefederal government and just looking back.
(18:40):
into the 19th century where wehad, the fugitive slave law.
for people who aren't familiar withthat law, that law actually gave
Midwesterns and Northern states,the, the legal responsibility for it.
If a future slave or if someone thoughtthey were a future slave, they had
the legal responsibility to arrestthat slave and go through the normal
(19:04):
legal channels and send that slave,back to a Southern state and put them
back into the institution of slavery.
right now, we have a law,
I think it's maybe the 13th amendment.
that actually outlaws slavery, butthere's an exception, which means that
if, someone is incarcerated, that meansthat they're going to be subject to going
(19:28):
back into the institution of slavery.
And that law is still on the books.
in a lot of states, this happenedduring the Clinton administration,
there were more black men incarceratedduring his administration than any other
administration during that time period.
the law should not giveexceptions or legal loopholes,
(19:51):
to allow racism to enter into.
number one, that's what thefederal government needs to do.
and also on the locallevel, with the churches.
for me, if we look back into history,there was an instrument called
the slave Bible, and that slaveBible was really created actually
(20:11):
psychologically and manipulate people.
Right.
The Negro population in the West Indiesto accept the institution of slavery and
to accept that that was their destiny.
That was their fate.
Now people will actually automaticallyassume that here we are in 2024.
That's no longer on the books.
That's not true.
We do have modern Bibles.
(20:34):
We have ministers who actually endorseand support the institution of slavery.
Now, when I say slavery, What I meanby that is according to the definition
of when a person is divested ofall human rights and they are one
human being owns physically anotherhuman being is chattel property.
(20:55):
So that's what I mean.
And that's why I particularly use noother Bible, but the King James Bible.
Of 1611, because when it comes to therighteous relationship a master and
a servant, the word servant is used.
The word slave is not used in this Bible.
(21:16):
The only time slave is used in this Bible,when the Hebrews, the Hebrew population,
were enslaved by the Egyptians.
And when, for instance, Joseph wentin and was captured and went into
slavery the Egyptian government.
So the churches really need to be whenit comes to this, when it comes to the
(21:37):
issue of theological corruption, or thatword, or the term slavery being used.
And they need to be proactive togetting back to my grandfather, we
had two major riots in Cleveland, theGlenville riots and the Huff riots,
and I'm not gonna, we don't have enoughtime to get into the details, but
he actually physically went into thecommunity and actually offered prayer.
(22:01):
He offered prayer.
So what he did was he extendedhis ministry and took it
out into the community.
So I see too many ministers who werejust locked into the pulpit who were
just locked into the brick and mortar.
And they actually need to deal with whatJesus did and the disciples did and carry
(22:21):
their ministry out into the communitylike what you're doing with your RV and
actually make it a working word, youknow, actually take your ministry out and
connect it with the people physically.
And my grandfather, he even wentdoor to door and knocked on doors.
Ministers aren't doing that.
this needs to be done today.
(22:41):
Yeah, I think one of the things Iobserve, one of the things in my early,
I was saved in my 20s, I went to amulticultural church, non denominational
church in the Atlanta area, andI think that was helpful for me.
Yeah.
You know, growing up a white guyin the South, going and worshiping
(23:03):
with people from cultures.
We had Hispanics, we had AfricanAmericans, and you know, the
music was awesome because itwas a mixture of all of that.
and I do think sometimes we segregateourselves even in our church world.
And, you know, some communitiesthere's not a lot of diversity
anyway, so that makes sense.
but I like when we worship with.
(23:25):
Other people, you know what I mean?
And we get around others andI love what you said, Herb.
It's so powerful.
I think there's a lot of churches nowthat are sort of in the entertainment
business or the comfort business.
And they expect people to come throughtheir doors and they kind of, you
know, close those doors and theyhave people inside that building
instead of opening the doors andgetting out in these communities.
(23:49):
Because I think that's more the answerthan maybe the government coming up with
some law that says love thy neighbor.
I think we need to actuallygo out and love thy neighbor,
ourselves and show that right.
with the businesses you askedme, and I didn't cover that
part with the businesses.
What can they do?
Basically, and this would reallycross all racial barriers.
(24:12):
Is there 1 of the practicesthat has been acceptable, but.
Is not acceptable, accordingto biblical scripture and
that is the at will contract.
Tell me more.
yeah, at will contracts.
gives the, the employer the flexibility.
(24:33):
determining employment based on noreason, based on no forewarning.
and I've seen it many, many times.
I've actually have seen groups ofpeople actually being dismissed.
I've actually, when I was youngerworking in a factory to, my college
(24:54):
fees, a guy, this was a white guy.
He had a beard and for one reason oranother, He was dismissed and I heard
later on that the foreman particularlydidn't care for him because he was
wearing a beard and the employee hasno legal repercussions whatsoever.
that's getting back to Colossians chapterfour, verse one, when you're treating
(25:19):
your servant, or in this case, theemployee fair and on equal terms and the
biblical, the Hebrew biblical language.
means God fearing.
So when an employer And a plural is justbased on type of feeling that they have,
(25:41):
or it's a social bias that they have.
they're not God fearing.
That biblical languagealso means righteous.
You're not being righteousin the eyes of God.
And it also means law abiding.
Now, according to the human language,of course, you know, it falls
within the framework of the law.
under the highest court in theland, under God's law, you're not
(26:04):
being a law abiding person underthe law, statutes, and commandments.
Right.
Herb, Do you ever get pushback from,
we'll say a business person,when you begin bringing up.
Some things, especially goingback into Old Testament law.
(26:25):
I think a lot of people, thatwould call themselves Christians.
they're cool with sermon on the Mount.
They're cool with Jesus.
They're cool with New Testament stuff.
But if you go back to, Mosaic law,Levitical law, some of the deep
stuff in the Old Testament, doyou ever get somebody say, yeah,
but that stuff just doesn't apply?
(26:48):
and if so, how do you respond?
I would ask that person,the first question is,
do you believe in Jesus?
And the answer is absolutelygoing to be a yes.
Do you accept Jesus your Lord and Savior?
(27:09):
And the answer is going to be yes.
I said, okay.
I said, well, you have doubts aboutMosaic law and it no longer exists.
And they're going to say, ofcourse, I believe in that.
I'm going to take them to the book ofJohn chapter five, verse 46 and verse 47.
(27:36):
Well, Christ says, if you do not believe.
In the writings of Moses.
You do not believe in me.
There it is.
There's nothing else to discuss becausethe Old Testament and the New Testament,
(27:58):
flow and they run in harmony together.
There is no discord.
And if they still have problems, cango right back to the New Testament.
We can go to the second.
Timothy, the second book of Timothy,chapter three, verse 16, where
(28:22):
Paul is giving instructions toTimothy on how to build a ministry.
Those three books, first Timothy,second Timothy, and Titus, they're
called the pastoral epistacles.
So, you know, those are theletters on building ministry.
So we can go into the second bookof Timothy chapter three, verse 16.
Paul says all scripture, allscripture is divinely inspired by God.
(28:55):
so here i'm going to play a little bitof the I hate to use the term devil's
advocate in the conversation we're havinghere, but I'm going to use a counter that
I could hear some business people mightbring it up but herb Is it even possible
in the world we're in today with thisBabylonian structure that we've got,
that is our federal government, and we'lltalk United States, we could obviously
(29:19):
do similar things with other countries,but the, all the federal laws and
regulation, all the state, all the local,is it even possible for me to adhere
to those biblical laws and principles?
All of them in the world we're in today.
yes, it is because the laws andstatutes and commandments are not
(29:41):
grievous, to my knowledge, there'sno government law on the books.
that will actually force youto break the law and statute
of commandments and God's word.
There's none.
Now, if it gets to that point,then you have to make a choice.
And when you said that case thatwas brought up in my mind and people
(30:05):
might feel uncomfortable aboutthis, but that's just the way it is.
Because, I'm not here to please people.
I'm here to help you, Christ,especially those who knew a lot, those
who were actually very astute andknowledgeable about Mosaic law, the
Pharisees who were hypocrites, youknow, and they always tried to trick
(30:27):
them up, but he basically came with thetruth, whether they liked it or not.
And that's the way it is as ministers.
When you're helping people, no matterwho they are, no matter what they
believe in, you're helping them.
You have to give them thetruth according to, what I call
sound doctrine, sound doctrine.
If you believe in the teachers of Christ,if you believe that Paul, who wrote most
(30:52):
of the New Testament is an apostle ofChrist, he talked about sound doctrine.
if a person says, well, if it's reallypossible, there might be a situation where
you just might have to make a choice.
And I think about a woman,correct me if I'm wrong.
Years ago, I believe it wasin the state of Alabama.
(31:15):
worked for a small municipalgovernment and she was a clerk.
She had to actually sign off on thedocument to accept the gay marriage.
And she said, no, I'm, Iknow I'm not doing this.
That's it.
what you have to do at that point.
(31:36):
you have to accept the fact thatyou actually believe in Christ,
that when you make a decision, eventhough you're going to go through
adversity, He is going to help you.
You have to believe that.
He's going to help you.
He's not going to leaveyou hanging out to dry.
And Christ said, when you stand upfor me, you're going to be afflicted.
(31:59):
You're going to be afflicted.
You have to accept that fact.
But in that infliction, also says thatwhen you die from me, you will live.
But if you just live for theworld, if you're just living
for the world, you're gonna die.
I do recall that story.
There might come a time inyour life of business where you
just have to make that choice.
(32:22):
but Christ is not going to leave you andyour family in a destitute situation.
He's not going to do that.
When the disciples came to him and theywere concerned about their daily bread.
it was a story about the raventhe raven comes back and still
God supplies that raven what heneeds and you're above that raven.
(32:46):
Oh, you with such little faith.
I think I do recall that story.
It may have been Kentucky that that ladywas in, I believe, but I remember that.
and I'll tell you the scripturethat popped to my mind.
So Matthew six, I don't knowthe exact scripture, but it's,
you can't serve two masters.
You can't serve God.
You can't serve mass.
You can only serve one master.
and I think it comesdown to who do you serve?
(33:08):
and what you're talking about arehaving to make hard choices about that.
So circling back a little bit to thebusinessman, I asked you a couple of
questions that might be where someoneis countering what you're attempting to
lead and guide them in, do most of thepeople that you interact with and work
(33:29):
with, are they ready to do anything?
Everything you say, according to thebiblical standard and principles, or do
they think they're ready and there's stilla bit of a process that they need to go
through to get to that level of depth.
Did that make sense?
That question makes sense to you.
(33:50):
What are your thoughts on that?
there's going to be a widevariety that people are going
to be on, different levels.
But that, Tim, that question, it gets backto what Paul says, you have to be patient.
You have to be patient with peoplewhen they're given the ministry.
(34:12):
And he also gave the parable.
you can't give people meat.
You have to give them milk.
sometimes you just can'tthrow everything at everybody.
It might take them time, toconsume it and digest it.
and not only does it weigh on Christ,also, have to pray for the Holy Spirit.
(34:36):
You have to pray for the Holy Spiritto actually enter that person.
You have to pray for him.
That's what needs to be done.
because
there are different levelsof faith and belief.
when we talk about Paul,Paul murdered Stephen,
(34:59):
but he did it in ignorance.
And he said he did it in ignorance, butI haven't read it anywhere in the new
Testament, I honestly believe that'swhy Paul suffered so much affliction
because he had a debt he had to pay.
That's what I honestly believe.
So when we're talking to differentpeople and some people may not
(35:21):
accept it, some people might behanging on the balance a little bit.
It's important to be patient withthose people, to stay in contact
with those people, to pray forthem along the way offer them love.
And hopefully God will give themthe Holy Spirit to enter their life.
Because the timing is on God.
(35:44):
It's not on us.
All we can do is deliver the gospel.
Yeah, I think that's good.
You know, the word grace just poppedinto my mind and it's a word that
some people throw it around in our.
Culture today, even our churchculture and some people use it
in different ways and all that.
It kind of made me think, Iwanted to go back to something you
(36:04):
brought up at the very beginningand talk about a few things here.
You said that, that AME churchthat you grew up in, I don't know
a lot about that denomination.
I know a little bit, but you saidthat it was, they, they were.
Serious about church thatyou were at the church.
If those doors were open, you were there.
(36:26):
And that was an expectation, obviouslywith the family you're in, was there
a lot of grace in that environment?
and was that something that.
I'm not asking you to be criticalof how you were raised or anything
like that, but I guess I'm sort ofasking, what are some pros and cons of
growing up in that extremely strict,as you worded it, church environment?
(36:52):
I didn't understand exactly, during thattime period, because I was so young, both
of my parents were working at the time.
my mother was a secretary.
My father was a cop.
He was a Cleveland cop.
so the background, my home life, itreally just centered on education.
as far as theological instructionand faith based instruction, that
(37:14):
was really, set aside for Sundays.
but for me, I guess I just didn'tunderstand what the benefits would be
being raised in this type of environment.
but the pros were that itlaid a foundation and, those
(37:35):
theological instructions werereally incorporated through the
moral fabric of my everyday life.
we had to keep the house clean.
we had to respect our neighbors.
It didn't matter who it was.
there was a woman next doorwho was very nice to us.
we had two fruit trees in the back andsometimes I'll be in a bad, you know,
(37:56):
kind of, my kids already get mischievousand I would throw cherries in there.
my mother made me actuallyclean up her driveway.
Well,
And later on, come to find outthat woman was a prostitute,
but it didn't matter becauseno one told me that that woman,
(38:20):
was breaking the commandments.
The theological instructionthat was incorporated, it was
incorporated in my moral conduct.
Hey, listen, you disrespected that woman.
You get up there and youclean up my driveway.
So later on in life, after highschool, I broke away, but I came
back because I had that foundation.
(38:42):
And those were the pros.
Those were the pros.
I had something to fall back on becausewhen I saw other young people who
possibly didn't have that foundation.
And they would just let us strayand they didn't make it back.
And now I can actually thankGod and I do every day.
(39:05):
I thank God for actually giving methe chance, giving me the chance
to deliver his word, giving me.
bringing me up in a spiritually, thespiritual hierarchy that I, that I
had, and it wasn't just my grandfather,brothers, uncles, they were all ministers.
So, God is really blessed me andI, I thank him for that every day.
(39:27):
So those were the, the pros werethe foundation, the cons were that
there was just no knowledge ofunderstanding why I'm doing this.
I remember I'll say thisand it was kind of funny.
my grandfather was called pastorin another church, and this church,
they were conducting funerals.
(39:48):
And they were actually having allthese coffins on the second floor.
I asked my mother about this yesterday.
I said, Mom, do you remember?
I was about maybe six.
She said, I know what you're going to say.
You were seven years old.
And you were liftingup the lizards coffins.
And you were slamming them downand running around the church.
And my grandfather said, Carol,do something with that boy.
(40:11):
So that was that.
there are times we need correction isthat's important to, you know, when you
were talking about your neighbor, thething that came to mind, I think about
this so often and I try to visualize thisscene of Jesus with the woman at the well
and the language that he used with her.
(40:32):
and I try to do it because attimes I could be fairly stern in
the way I speak and, you know, itcould come across strong and I just
think about him in that situation.
And I think if we use thatexample more, the world would be
a little bit of a better place.
One thing I definitely want to ask about,I'm kind of progressing a little bit and
picking off some things from earlier.
(40:54):
When you went into ministry andspecifically when you went into chaplaincy
within the prison, what are some things,I know you said you don't do that as
much now or you don't do that anymore.
What are some things that you'velearned or pulled from that
experience that you're still usingtoday while you were within prison?
(41:15):
Because that's one of the.
toughest ministry situations that I hear.
I've done some things in elderlycare homes and all that, but
I've never gone into prisons.
What are some things that you could tellus that you learned from doing prison
ministry that's still with you today?
There were 2 things,well, really 3, really 3.
The 1st thing that I, that I learnedin that environment, in the prison
(41:41):
environment, because I was, at that time,ministering, 3 different facilities, and 1
was actually a maximum security facility.
And there was a certain culture, there's acertain culture, within the prison system.
And never forget, that I first enteredand started working that environment,
(42:07):
I had a very difficult time actually,keep getting across to the inmates.
and one inmate one day he said, youknow, chaplain, want to think about
maybe, talking to the inmates, talkingto the guys individually, you know,
because you do have the authority.
To bring them in.
And when I did that, everything changed.
(42:28):
Everything changed.
And I actually met three,ex-offenders on the street.
This is a true story, on, on the street.
all three of 'em, every last oneof 'em were reunited with their
family, had a job once, starteda job and had a small business.
(42:49):
And we actually had conversations.
We actually had conversations.
When I was actually talking to themindividually, we talked about their
family, we talked about, what got them inthere, we talked about, what would they
like to do when they get out, I talkedabout their educational goals, how they
feel about certain things, what they'regoing through, and they never opened
(43:12):
up, they never opened up while theywere around other inmates what they did
when I was talking to them individually.
The other thing I learned.
Was that I was asked to actually bean arbitrator with other chaplains.
One was a Protestant and the otherone was Catholic and they were
(43:32):
actually having disagreements onhow they were to conduct services.
And I said, this shouldn't, you know,this, this shouldn't happen, but
it did, but, but, but, but it did.
And that was another awakeningexperience for me because I was new.
in into the field.
And when I did that, I just had adifficult time actually reminded them
(43:59):
about how to actually love yourself.
Love your brother, and is why you're here.
You're here.
You know, you're healed to help.
The unfortunate, even if youhave to make a sacrifice.
Even if you have, you have a scheduleand it's going to be interrupted,
(44:21):
a way around it, you know, explain,explain that to your congregation.
You're not, I mean, you're human.
So those were, I guessthose are the other things.
And, the 3rd thing is that,institutions need to be more
supportive of our chaplains.
(44:43):
it's amazing how when we talk about.
Love in Christ.
We'll talk about the love of Godand actually, having the word of God
and the Holy Spirit move through us.
And should allow that to, transform ournature so we can touch other people.
But a lot of times us in thesepositions, we get so caught up into
(45:07):
our ego and the ego is nothing morethan personal interest and personal
interest is a quality of Satan.
And, there were institutions that I foundit difficult to actually get support,
reading materials, books, scriptures,newspapers, because, there were actually
(45:27):
some church officers who felt that, well,you know, I should have had your position.
And I actually received thattype of response and that was for
me, an eye opening experience.
And was also an educationallearning experience
Yeah, I think it's very disappointing Whenthe ministers and the religious people
(45:48):
start arguing amongst themselves about dothis or don't do that, it kind of leads
to what we were talking about a little bitbefore we hit record, just about religion.
The thing I love that you said there,and this is, I want to emphasize this.
I love that you said thatwhen you first went in.
I'm guessing you were probablydoing services and talking
(46:08):
to groups and all that.
And that wasn't getting asfar as you wanted it to.
But when you started having oneon one conversations and the word
I'm going to use is relationship,that's when things change.
And I think.
That relationship is probably theanswer to a lot of things we've been
talking about during this call, Herb.
(46:28):
I think it goes back to some ofthe discrimination and things.
Relationship is what's important,and it may not be collective.
It might be one on one.
It was so good and so powerful thatthe relationship of one on one.
I think what we try to do in our worldtoday is we try to do the easy stuff.
It's easy to get up on stagewith a microphone and talk to
20, 200, 2, 000 people, and thatmight be good, but you know what?
(46:54):
That one on one, that's powerful.
There's one other thing that I saw in yourresume or when I was studying you, you've
done some work, I think with youth andthe topic has been manhood and character
development and things like that.
I guess I'd love to just hear someobservations or I guess I'd just love
for you to share just a little bit.
(47:16):
about what you're seeing there because.
Probably what's going on there atthat youth level is a reflection of
what we're seeing in our culture 10years from now or 20 years from now.
So if we could back up 20years, what we're seeing now
was what was going on with that.
So what, what can you say about that?
(47:38):
What would you like to shareabout that in light of the
conversation we've been having?
would reach out, Iwould say, reach it out.
To the parents who have young males.
And those who actually believe.
And God's word that God has, likeeverything else, we'll talk about
(48:00):
business, but God has a criteria.
God has requirements.
For man, and of those requirementscan be found in the book of
Micah, chapter 6, verse 8.
And he actually list those requirements.
what a man is.
And man from the.
The Hebrew biblical language, and there's3 levels of a man, and that word is
(48:25):
Adam or Adam, but Hebrew definitionis the 1st level is a human being.
So, when we have males, whoare actually, disrespectful.
to their teachers.
to their parents, they'reactually receiving.
(48:47):
Counterproductive again from the world.
they have computers, which isnothing more than a cell phone.
That's the corner, but it's nothingmore than a handheld computer and,
they have access to videos and moviesand, the parents will really be
more observant and more attentiveabout what's entering their mind.
(49:12):
the 2nd level of a man is a hypocrite.
The 3rd level is just a low man.
So they're receiving all thesemessages from different movies.
On what a man is or what a man shouldbe, accumulating vast sums of wealth,
cars, and sex, and, having a lotof different female relationships.
(49:39):
that definition is contrary to thebiblical definition, and we actually
see what's going on right now when theworld defines what a man is, it leads
to violence, it leads to destruction,or what the Bible calls, Now, when
it comes to accumulating wealth orprovisions, of course, and I believe
(50:02):
it's in his, second book of Timothy,where a man has to provide for his
family, because if you don't, you'reconsidered less than, an infidel, but
there's more, there's more, qualities.
To be a man or reaching manhood.
when parents right now, what they shoulddo is they really shouldn't investigate or
(50:25):
if they don't, if they can't investigateit, if they don't have the biblical
knowledge to actually, find out whatthe biblical definition of a man, how to
mold a man's character, go see your localpriest, go see your minister, because
you don't want to, you don't want your,your, your male to get to the point.
where he's 30, 40, 50, 60 years old.
(50:47):
And I, I've actually saw this in my ownlife where someone who I thought I used
to know actually engaged in an argument.
And this man, was in his sixties.
He got into a verbal confrontationa man who was young enough to be his
grandson, who was in his twenties.
And the young man actuallyapologized to him.
(51:10):
And then, he told me about thisexperience and what makes it
so Disturbing but interesting.
He told me and his son later that was hisdefinition of manhood was engaging in an
argument with a, a young man, young enoughto be his grandson in an environment
(51:33):
where people are bereavement in, andI'm telling you, I honestly believe.
There were a lot of, there are womenright now listening to this, were,
I honestly believe they will agreethat there are a lot of men right now
who have reached the stage of lifewhere they're either 40, 50 or older.
(51:54):
who have the wrong conception of man.
And the only way, the only way,to actually find out what the true
definition of manhood and developproperly is to actually go through
Micah chapter 6 verse 8 and there areother biblical scriptures or talk to
(52:17):
your local, minister or your priest.
that's so good, because I do thinkthe root of a lot of our issues
are related to that manhood.
so Herb, it's been a great conversation.
We've talked about a lot of things,but because right now you really are
ministering with, to that business personthat's attempting to, to live and operate
(52:42):
their business by biblical principles.
I think what I'd like to do here with mylast question is I'd love for you to just
speak into the mic, look into the camera,because I think a lot of people want.
to operate their businessby biblical principles.
I think they desire to but maybe it'shard for them to see how that might
happen So i'd love for you to justmaybe encourage them just give a word
(53:04):
of encouragement Just so that peoplecan finish up if they're maybe wrestling
with how they can Operate their businessand make money maybe they're battling
between, serving two masters, mammonor God, and they want to serve God with
their business and all that they do.
just give a word of encouragementfor that business person that
(53:27):
really wants to serve God.
God in all they do.
My 1st word encouragement.
If a business person feels fromthe deep down depth of their soul.
There's something that's not rightin the book of John, it says.
(53:48):
are 3 levels to repent.
And that means 1st of all, youhave to admit the fact that
there's something that's not right.
That's the 1st step.
The 2nd step is to actuallytell God that, Forgive me.
You ask God, you ask Christfor your forgiveness.
And then you seek help.
(54:09):
Because we're talking about the,old books, and those were kings,
you know, back in the Old Testament,they all went to the prophets.
They all, all the rulers, allthe kings, all the princes, all
the merchants, they, They went tothe prophets first to seek help.
So, you know, so you are a rulerand that also brings to the mind.
(54:31):
I'll give us a number one ontime and I'll bring this example.
I actually met with amajor business owner.
It's been a long time ago, but hehad a major insurance agency in
downtown Manhattan in New York.
he pulled me along in his office andwe talked about 10 of those personal
relationships and he had a differentpersonality that he projected when he was
(54:55):
around his sales force, but he showed me adifferent type of guy when we were in his
office and he actually humbled himself.
So, my words of encouragement, whenyou seek help from your minister,
your priest or whoever it is.
that personal relationship, but atfirst it has to start with admitting
(55:17):
to the fact that something's wrongin your life, ask for repentance, and
then physically go out and seek help.
Those are my words of encouragement.
Those are, those are very helpful.
I love the humble yourself.
Herb, if someone wants to reach outto you and connect with you and,
and talk to you more, or find outmore about what you do, what's the
(55:38):
best way for someone to do that?
They can do it two ways, Tim.
they can call me and myphone number is 216 563 2031.
Or, they can actually email me.
At Herbert Burns, thenumber seven at yahoo.
com and, within 24 hours, I will respond.
So,
(55:59):
Nice.
We'll include that down in the notes.
Haven't had many people just flatout, give their phone number.
That's pretty unique.
I actually appreciate that and like that,that shows relationship right there.
So, herb, I appreciatethis final question.
We are seek, go create those three words.
I'm going to allow you or force you topick one of those that just means more
(56:20):
to you or that you want to say somethingabout as my final question, seek, go, Or
create, which one do you choose and why?
I would choose seek because, seekbasically reminds me of when actually
told the disciples to go out andseek those, seek those who need help.
(56:42):
And they were spreading thegospel through all over the world.
That really connects with my ministryis to seek those wherever they are,
wherever they're located throughoutthis country, whether it's in person,
or on zoom to seek those who need helphelping their life, whether it is through
operating their business, accordingto scripture, or maybe they want to
(57:02):
develop into a man and they don't wantto live by the worldly principles.
So see, see, that reallyresonates with me.
Excellent.
Love it.
Herbert Addison burns.
Thank you so much for joiningus here on seek, go create.
I've enjoyed the conversation.
I knew that we would, I told you,it's going to be like you and I
sitting over coffee, just kind oftalking about some deep stuff and
we had some good deep conversation.
(57:24):
For those of you that would like to reachout to Herbert, he gave you his info.
Make sure you do that.
All that'll be down in.
And I also appreciateeveryone listening in here.
We've got new episodes thatrelease on YouTube and all
the platforms every Monday.
I appreciate you continuing tolisten and sharing and making
comments, especially over on YouTube.
(57:46):
Y'all are making some awesome,great comments over on YouTube.
Thank you for that.
Thanks for listening in until next time.
Continue being all thatyou were created to be.
he extended his ministry andtook it out into the community.
(00:04):
So I see too many ministers who werejust locked into the pulpit who were
just locked into the brick and mortar.
And they actually need to deal with whatJesus did and the disciples did and carry
their ministry out into the community
Uh.
(00:30):
How can biblical principles reshapebusiness ethics and personal growth?
Join us today on Seek, Go, Create theleadership journey as we welcome Herbert
Addison Burns, an educational andbiblical consultant from Cleveland, Ohio.
Herbert specializes in fosteringmanhood and character development
among at risk youth and providesguidance for faith based businesses
(00:54):
aiming to operate according to biblicalscripture with a legacy rooted in
faith, including service as a prisonchaplain and work with urban youth.
Herbert shares insights on thepowerful impact of integrating
faith into both education and life.
And into business, Herbert,welcome to seek, go create.
(01:16):
Thank you, Tim.
I'm excited to be here this is awonderful opportunity to share what
I have about biblical scripture
Yeah, very good.
We're going to have fun withconversations related to that.
That's what we're all abouthere at seek, go create.
Before we launch though, Iprepped you a little bit.
Let's start off with what used tobe my icebreaker question, but it's
(01:36):
got a little bit of depth to it.
Would you rather answer.
What do you do or who you are go ahead andchoose which one you want to answer as the
first question And just go into the answerand then i'll jump in in a little bit
Yeah, well, you know, we talked aboutthis a little bit before we got started.
(01:57):
So, to be honest and fair aboutit really is a little bit of both.
I'm a man who grew up in a strict church.
My grandfather on my mother'sside, my mother's father was a very
important minister in Cleveland, Ohio.
(02:17):
He actually started.
2 churches, 1 was community and me.
The other 1 was Alan temple.
And the late Bishop, RichardAllen started that church.
And the reason why I'm getting to this,because I grew up in a very strict.
A, and the background, it wasthe kind of environment that.
(02:40):
Is a child coming up hadto go to Sunday school.
And then from there, I'mgoing to pay the service.
then from there I had to gohome and every, every Sunday
was a Thanksgiving dinner.
Every Sunday.
I mean the ham, the rolls, and my motherused to preserve these fruits and she
made these pies and you couldn't really goout and play until everything was ready.
(03:04):
know, so and, and when you'redone you had to go by yourself and
play outside with the other kids.
You couldn't sit around with the adults.
but my grandfather, When he came toCleveland, he came from South Carolina.
He was illiterate.
He grew up on a sharecropper plantation.
so 12 kids.
(03:25):
My mother was the youngest.
he went to school becausehe wanted to learn.
He wanted to be a doctorand a fisherman of men.
And when he decided to go to school atnight gain his literacy skills, he used
to ask my mother which world was which.
And, on in life, I guess, fastforward and I really didn't know,
(03:46):
where I fit into this world.
I just really, had ignored mybackground, my strict background.
But up call that I got, was back in 2000.
I wanted to go into the ministry.
And, I was living inColumbus, Ohio at the time.
I contacted the Ohio Department ofCorrections and they took me on.
(04:10):
They took me through thenormal orientation process.
And most people don't understand this,but a chaplain has a different role.
A chaplain, although you have acertain faith based affiliation,
but you're servicing peoplefrom other faith based groups.
And you have to find a common threadthat's going to really link up whatever,
(04:35):
faith based belief, that they hold on to.
It wasn't hard, because there wereChristians, there were Muslims, and,
most people aren't aware of this,that Muslims do believe in the Bible.
they believe in the Torah, they believe inthe, there's a board, which is the Psalms,
and also the Injil, which is this gospel.
(04:56):
The only difference is that, theydon't believe in the divinity of
our Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.
But you, in order to serve themhelping through their Greek periods,
their trials and tribulations, youhave to find something that's going
to link between what you believe inand what they believe in, in order
to give them spiritual nourishment.
(05:16):
And it was very successful.
So to answer your question,I'm a spiritual person.
I believe in the law of Moses.
I believe in the God of,Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
and I believe in the second Adam,which is Jesus Christ, our Lord,
God, the Savior, that's who I am.
(05:38):
and I love that.
You kind of gave a glimpseinto some of the things.
I want to talk about which is thatlegacy of The church that you came
from because I do think that kindof determines who we are You Often,
you know, where do we come from?
What is, what is our, ourlineage, I guess, legacies.
(05:59):
and I love that it kind ofled you into a ministry role.
So just as a quick fast forward, andthen I may back up a little bit, cause
I want to put some pieces togetherfrom all that you said currently today.
I think you said earlier, you're not doingas much in that prison chaplain role, but
you're working quite a bit with businessowners, from a faith based perspective.
(06:23):
Tell me just a little bit about that.
And then you don't have to give allthe info because I may come back to it
later, but just bring me up to speedwith what you're working on today.
Well, what's going on Tim with, mostbusiness owners, they, operate a business,
even though they say they're a faithbased business, they are not aware of.
(06:45):
The law statutes and commandmentsbecause they're spelled out clearly.
There's actually contracts, in the bookof Exodus and the book of Leviticus
on how a business should operate.
And they don't stepoutside those boundaries.
So what I'm, what I'm doing right nowis I'm bringing forth those contracts.
I'm bringing forth those biblicalcontracts and also the code of conduct.
(07:08):
And what's interesting about that,I had an experience a few years ago.
I was, At a insurance seminar,and, normally during these type
of events that they have certainrepresentatives of these seminars,
and they explain what the companyis their history, their background.
(07:28):
what's required and thepeople who are invited there.
They have to go through certainrequirements, basically, and
meet standards with the company.
Now, 1 of the facilitators andI found this really interesting.
There was a man sitting in front when heintroduced himself, he said that he had
an experience that he was in the military.
(07:51):
So the facilitator said, well,I appreciate your service.
And then after another 20 minutes,he said, again, I appreciate service.
then he said it again.
And then it dawned on me what he did.
That was a code word.
(08:12):
That was a cold word basically tosay or suggest that you meet all the
requirements of our company, will be notonly accepted into our company, but into
this inner circle, good old board networksare not acceptable the eyes of God.
(08:34):
If we go to, efficiency chaptersix, verse nine, God talks about in
the end of that chapter, respect.
Respect means from the Hebrewlanguage, it means actually
putting forth getting in front.
So, who meets the requirements andperforms, acceptable standards to
(08:56):
their company that they're workingfor, employee has the same right
and privileges as anyone else.
If you're after work and you'redrinking around with other Christians
and you're drinking beer and havingfun and slaps on the back, those
types of social characteristicscannot be carried over the business.
Because if you do that, you're actuallybreaking the code of conduct this in the
(09:22):
new Testament and that's having respect.
And God is not going torespect or have respect.
For anyone when they enter the kingdomexcept for those live according
to mosaic law and the teachings ofour Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Right.
So one thing that's intriguing to meis kind of question popped in my mind.
(09:43):
One thing I think that might be valuable.
because with conversations like this,I think it's really easy for us to look
at what people might be doing wrong.
And I do want to discuss that.
I want to look at what some ofthe business leaders and other
leaders might be doing incorrect.
Cause I am sure we could look aroundthe culture today with our politics
(10:07):
and leadership, even in ministry andbusiness, and we could find stuff
wrong, and I do want us to address that.
But what I want to ask you kindof first here, Herb, is what are
some things that you're observing?
That's some leaders,especially in business.
What are some things you'reseeing that they're doing really?
Really well, some thingsthat when you look at it, you
(10:30):
go, wow, that's impressive.
That's good.
I'd love it to be a little morespecific if you could, because I like
to catch people doing stuff, right?
So does anything come to yourmind, anything you want to share?
And then we, I do want to look at someof the things they're doing wrong.
what are some things thatsome leaders are doing right?
That you're, you're seeing out there.
Well, when we go to the book of Colossianschapter four, verse one, when Paul
(10:55):
talks about the master should treatand the master in this case, Let's say
that's the employer and they shouldtreat their servants, equal and fair.
right.
So, when I see owners, basically.
treat everyone now that, ofcourse, we have laws, we have
(11:16):
anti discrimination laws.
when I see, business owners, whenthey're actually treating people,
their employees, regardless of.
The race, regardless of their religion.
I'm not an advocate of the gay community,but we have to treat those people fair.
(11:37):
You have to treat those people equally.
But when I see business owners actuallydoing that, and when another employee
is not treating another coworker oranother employee well, they'll step in.
So what they're doing is they're employingand putting that biblical verse to use.
(12:00):
And really, beyond that,from a legal standpoint, they
really don't have to do that.
But they're creating fair,
peaceful working environment.
And that's love because, Christ saysthat we should love ourselves first.
And if we have love to ourbrother, that means God is in us.
(12:22):
if they're exhibiting and producingan environment of peace, equal
and fair treatment, that meansthey're putting it to use.
That environment is equal, is fair,and also love, because, if we don't
have love for our brother, thenGod is not in us, we're a liar.
(12:43):
one thing related to that, Herb, we'reboth in our sixties, so we're mature.
I'm guessing you've seen a lotof things over the years and
I grew up in the Deep South.
I grew up just outside ofAtlanta in a small town that
got swallowed up by Atlanta.
You mentioned your grandfathercame from South Carolina.
The Deep South obviously hasa lot of issues related to
(13:05):
discrimination and things like that.
My question is Herb, and I don't thinkI'm not trying to lead anything with this.
you be candid as you want to be with mebecause we're brothers in Christ right
here, so we could do this in your 60plus years, we have heard about issues
(13:26):
of discrimination and, and they're notjust race, there are other things too,
you brought them up, there's otherpeople that have different sexual
orientations and there's, you know,the male, female, there's different
things there, but are we getting.
Better or worse when it comesto that issue of discriminating?
(13:48):
I would so love to think we're gettingbetter, but I'm not sure at times.
How do you assess that and what wouldyou like to say about it when I kind
of give you that topic to discuss?
Discrimination, are we getting better?
Or is it getting worse?
When we talk about discrimination, forme, being an African American, I have
(14:11):
to look at it, from that perspective.
when we're talking about, Education rightnow, of course, we have black history
and we're rapidly approaching that month.
black history is not being.
Presented the way it should, because.
Each different local geographicalarea, they had their own story to tell.
(14:34):
Black history for the most part.
We focus on the traditionalleaders we focus on.
Dr.
Martin, the king and Frederick Douglass.
but for me, coming from Cleveland, Ohio,Northeastern Ohio, during the time that
I was small, we had a lot of, segregationin the educational school system.
(14:55):
the children back during that time wereput in very deplorable conditions, so the
parents wanted their children to learnand accommodations that were fitting
for those children to be educated.
And when they actually went out.
picketing the school system,they were confronted by two
different major riots, during thattime period, and, it was awful.
(15:19):
A lot of people were, were hurt,injured, we had domestic terrorism
that was, inflicted by the, the localCleveland police during that time period.
So these things really need tobe brought out and it's not.
a broadside against any particular race,but these tragedies need to be exposed
(15:41):
and also the good things and also thepositive advancements that That, people
in my race have brought forth to makethis a society that's been benefiting
off of these technological advancements.
And to answer your question, in someways, it has gotten better in some ways.
It's gotten more.
So here we have a man just recently2 weeks ago and upstate New York.
(16:06):
know if you heard about it, his namewas Robert Brooks, who was beatily
murdered, and this was on video, thiswas actually on video, and, and, the
CEOs, there were four CEOs who murderedthis man, and no arrests have been made
yet, none, and, people want to always,point the finger at our President elect.
(16:27):
but during the, Camilla Harris Bidenadministration, the murder rate for
innocent black men and women, was onthe rise during this administration.
So, and, none of thoseofficers were arrested.
So, in some ways, with the attitude,with the, perspective of some of
(16:50):
the teachers, with, with some ofthe adults, it has gotten better
maybe on the individual level.
but if we look at, the policedepartments, all across the board,
and I have to basically zero in onOhio, it really hasn't gotten better.
Herb so related to that, I don'twant us to go deep into the political
(17:13):
Realm because I truthfully can arguea lot of different stuff on both
sides and all that I don't know ifit's a this side or that side issue.
This isn't if you ask me Is there?
Something, and I, I'm in general,a less government guy, because I
think when there's more government,there's burdens that come in and
(17:34):
anyway, but that's just my belief.
But is there something at that federalgovernment level that should be done
or I'll give you a few choices here andyou could take it and do whatever you
want to do with, or is it something thatour churches should be involved with?
(17:55):
Or are there, or are businesses,which you and I work with, you know,
is it, is it down at that level?
what are some thingsjust from where you say?
And I know you don't have theanswers because if you did, you
would be the guy in charge, butwhat are just some of your thoughts?
Yes, I got the answer, butnobody's called me up to ask me,
and I'm not going to tell them.
(18:16):
what are your thoughts on that?
Because a lot of people say, oh, thegovernment needs to just enact all
these laws and make people do stuff.
I've seen that, and I don't seethat that works real well, and I
don't know that I see the churchesdoing what I'd love for them to do,
and what are your thoughts on that?
no, there's no right or wrong answer.
if we start from the top, with thefederal government and just looking back.
(18:40):
into the 19th century where wehad, the fugitive slave law.
for people who aren't familiar withthat law, that law actually gave
Midwesterns and Northern states,the, the legal responsibility for it.
If a future slave or if someone thoughtthey were a future slave, they had
the legal responsibility to arrestthat slave and go through the normal
(19:04):
legal channels and send that slave,back to a Southern state and put them
back into the institution of slavery.
right now, we have a law,
I think it's maybe the 13th amendment.
that actually outlaws slavery, butthere's an exception, which means that
if, someone is incarcerated, that meansthat they're going to be subject to going
(19:28):
back into the institution of slavery.
And that law is still on the books.
in a lot of states, this happenedduring the Clinton administration,
there were more black men incarceratedduring his administration than any other
administration during that time period.
the law should not giveexceptions or legal loopholes,
(19:51):
to allow racism to enter into.
number one, that's what thefederal government needs to do.
and also on the locallevel, with the churches.
for me, if we look back into history,there was an instrument called
the slave Bible, and that slaveBible was really created actually
(20:11):
psychologically and manipulate people.
Right.
The Negro population in the West Indiesto accept the institution of slavery and
to accept that that was their destiny.
That was their fate.
Now people will actually automaticallyassume that here we are in 2024.
That's no longer on the books.
That's not true.
We do have modern Bibles.
(20:34):
We have ministers who actually endorseand support the institution of slavery.
Now, when I say slavery, What I meanby that is according to the definition
of when a person is divested ofall human rights and they are one
human being owns physically anotherhuman being is chattel property.
(20:55):
So that's what I mean.
And that's why I particularly use noother Bible, but the King James Bible.
Of 1611, because when it comes to therighteous relationship a master and
a servant, the word servant is used.
The word slave is not used in this Bible.
(21:16):
The only time slave is used in this Bible,when the Hebrews, the Hebrew population,
were enslaved by the Egyptians.
And when, for instance, Joseph wentin and was captured and went into
slavery the Egyptian government.
So the churches really need to be whenit comes to this, when it comes to the
(21:37):
issue of theological corruption, or thatword, or the term slavery being used.
And they need to be proactive togetting back to my grandfather, we
had two major riots in Cleveland, theGlenville riots and the Huff riots,
and I'm not gonna, we don't have enoughtime to get into the details, but
he actually physically went into thecommunity and actually offered prayer.
(22:01):
He offered prayer.
So what he did was he extendedhis ministry and took it
out into the community.
So I see too many ministers who werejust locked into the pulpit who were
just locked into the brick and mortar.
And they actually need to deal with whatJesus did and the disciples did and carry
(22:21):
their ministry out into the communitylike what you're doing with your RV and
actually make it a working word, youknow, actually take your ministry out and
connect it with the people physically.
And my grandfather, he even wentdoor to door and knocked on doors.
Ministers aren't doing that.
this needs to be done today.
(22:41):
Yeah, I think one of the things Iobserve, one of the things in my early,
I was saved in my 20s, I went to amulticultural church, non denominational
church in the Atlanta area, andI think that was helpful for me.
Yeah.
You know, growing up a white guyin the South, going and worshiping
(23:03):
with people from cultures.
We had Hispanics, we had AfricanAmericans, and you know, the
music was awesome because itwas a mixture of all of that.
and I do think sometimes we segregateourselves even in our church world.
And, you know, some communitiesthere's not a lot of diversity
anyway, so that makes sense.
but I like when we worship with.
(23:25):
Other people, you know what I mean?
And we get around others andI love what you said, Herb.
It's so powerful.
I think there's a lot of churches nowthat are sort of in the entertainment
business or the comfort business.
And they expect people to come throughtheir doors and they kind of, you
know, close those doors and theyhave people inside that building
instead of opening the doors andgetting out in these communities.
(23:49):
Because I think that's more the answerthan maybe the government coming up with
some law that says love thy neighbor.
I think we need to actuallygo out and love thy neighbor,
ourselves and show that right.
with the businesses you askedme, and I didn't cover that
part with the businesses.
What can they do?
Basically, and this would reallycross all racial barriers.
(24:12):
Is there 1 of the practicesthat has been acceptable, but.
Is not acceptable, accordingto biblical scripture and
that is the at will contract.
Tell me more.
yeah, at will contracts.
gives the, the employer the flexibility.
(24:33):
determining employment based on noreason, based on no forewarning.
and I've seen it many, many times.
I've actually have seen groups ofpeople actually being dismissed.
I've actually, when I was youngerworking in a factory to, my college
(24:54):
fees, a guy, this was a white guy.
He had a beard and for one reason oranother, He was dismissed and I heard
later on that the foreman particularlydidn't care for him because he was
wearing a beard and the employee hasno legal repercussions whatsoever.
that's getting back to Colossians chapterfour, verse one, when you're treating
(25:19):
your servant, or in this case, theemployee fair and on equal terms and the
biblical, the Hebrew biblical language.
means God fearing.
So when an employer And a plural is justbased on type of feeling that they have,
(25:41):
or it's a social bias that they have.
they're not God fearing.
That biblical languagealso means righteous.
You're not being righteousin the eyes of God.
And it also means law abiding.
Now, according to the human language,of course, you know, it falls
within the framework of the law.
under the highest court in theland, under God's law, you're not
(26:04):
being a law abiding person underthe law, statutes, and commandments.
Right.
Herb, Do you ever get pushback from,
we'll say a business person,when you begin bringing up.
Some things, especially goingback into Old Testament law.
(26:25):
I think a lot of people, thatwould call themselves Christians.
they're cool with sermon on the Mount.
They're cool with Jesus.
They're cool with New Testament stuff.
But if you go back to, Mosaic law,Levitical law, some of the deep
stuff in the Old Testament, doyou ever get somebody say, yeah,
but that stuff just doesn't apply?
(26:48):
and if so, how do you respond?
I would ask that person,the first question is,
do you believe in Jesus?
And the answer is absolutelygoing to be a yes.
Do you accept Jesus your Lord and Savior?
(27:09):
And the answer is going to be yes.
I said, okay.
I said, well, you have doubts aboutMosaic law and it no longer exists.
And they're going to say, ofcourse, I believe in that.
I'm going to take them to the book ofJohn chapter five, verse 46 and verse 47.
(27:36):
Well, Christ says, if you do not believe.
In the writings of Moses.
You do not believe in me.
There it is.
There's nothing else to discuss becausethe Old Testament and the New Testament,
(27:58):
flow and they run in harmony together.
There is no discord.
And if they still have problems, cango right back to the New Testament.
We can go to the second.
Timothy, the second book of Timothy,chapter three, verse 16, where
(28:22):
Paul is giving instructions toTimothy on how to build a ministry.
Those three books, first Timothy,second Timothy, and Titus, they're
called the pastoral epistacles.
So, you know, those are theletters on building ministry.
So we can go into the second bookof Timothy chapter three, verse 16.
Paul says all scripture, allscripture is divinely inspired by God.
(28:55):
so here i'm going to play a little bitof the I hate to use the term devil's
advocate in the conversation we're havinghere, but I'm going to use a counter that
I could hear some business people mightbring it up but herb Is it even possible
in the world we're in today with thisBabylonian structure that we've got,
that is our federal government, and we'lltalk United States, we could obviously
(29:19):
do similar things with other countries,but the, all the federal laws and
regulation, all the state, all the local,is it even possible for me to adhere
to those biblical laws and principles?
All of them in the world we're in today.
yes, it is because the laws andstatutes and commandments are not
(29:41):
grievous, to my knowledge, there'sno government law on the books.
that will actually force youto break the law and statute
of commandments and God's word.
There's none.
Now, if it gets to that point,then you have to make a choice.
And when you said that case thatwas brought up in my mind and people
(30:05):
might feel uncomfortable aboutthis, but that's just the way it is.
Because, I'm not here to please people.
I'm here to help you, Christ,especially those who knew a lot, those
who were actually very astute andknowledgeable about Mosaic law, the
Pharisees who were hypocrites, youknow, and they always tried to trick
(30:27):
them up, but he basically came with thetruth, whether they liked it or not.
And that's the way it is as ministers.
When you're helping people, no matterwho they are, no matter what they
believe in, you're helping them.
You have to give them thetruth according to, what I call
sound doctrine, sound doctrine.
If you believe in the teachers of Christ,if you believe that Paul, who wrote most
(30:52):
of the New Testament is an apostle ofChrist, he talked about sound doctrine.
if a person says, well, if it's reallypossible, there might be a situation where
you just might have to make a choice.
And I think about a woman,correct me if I'm wrong.
Years ago, I believe it wasin the state of Alabama.
(31:15):
worked for a small municipalgovernment and she was a clerk.
She had to actually sign off on thedocument to accept the gay marriage.
And she said, no, I'm, Iknow I'm not doing this.
That's it.
what you have to do at that point.
(31:36):
you have to accept the fact thatyou actually believe in Christ,
that when you make a decision, eventhough you're going to go through
adversity, He is going to help you.
You have to believe that.
He's going to help you.
He's not going to leaveyou hanging out to dry.
And Christ said, when you stand upfor me, you're going to be afflicted.
(31:59):
You're going to be afflicted.
You have to accept that fact.
But in that infliction, also says thatwhen you die from me, you will live.
But if you just live for theworld, if you're just living
for the world, you're gonna die.
I do recall that story.
There might come a time inyour life of business where you
just have to make that choice.
(32:22):
but Christ is not going to leave you andyour family in a destitute situation.
He's not going to do that.
When the disciples came to him and theywere concerned about their daily bread.
it was a story about the raventhe raven comes back and still
God supplies that raven what heneeds and you're above that raven.
(32:46):
Oh, you with such little faith.
I think I do recall that story.
It may have been Kentucky that that ladywas in, I believe, but I remember that.
and I'll tell you the scripturethat popped to my mind.
So Matthew six, I don't knowthe exact scripture, but it's,
you can't serve two masters.
You can't serve God.
You can't serve mass.
You can only serve one master.
and I think it comesdown to who do you serve?
(33:08):
and what you're talking about arehaving to make hard choices about that.
So circling back a little bit to thebusinessman, I asked you a couple of
questions that might be where someoneis countering what you're attempting to
lead and guide them in, do most of thepeople that you interact with and work
(33:29):
with, are they ready to do anything?
Everything you say, according to thebiblical standard and principles, or do
they think they're ready and there's stilla bit of a process that they need to go
through to get to that level of depth.
Did that make sense?
That question makes sense to you.
(33:50):
What are your thoughts on that?
there's going to be a widevariety that people are going
to be on, different levels.
But that, Tim, that question, it gets backto what Paul says, you have to be patient.
You have to be patient with peoplewhen they're given the ministry.
(34:12):
And he also gave the parable.
you can't give people meat.
You have to give them milk.
sometimes you just can'tthrow everything at everybody.
It might take them time, toconsume it and digest it.
and not only does it weigh on Christ,also, have to pray for the Holy Spirit.
(34:36):
You have to pray for the Holy Spiritto actually enter that person.
You have to pray for him.
That's what needs to be done.
because
there are different levelsof faith and belief.
when we talk about Paul,Paul murdered Stephen,
(34:59):
but he did it in ignorance.
And he said he did it in ignorance, butI haven't read it anywhere in the new
Testament, I honestly believe that'swhy Paul suffered so much affliction
because he had a debt he had to pay.
That's what I honestly believe.
So when we're talking to differentpeople and some people may not
(35:21):
accept it, some people might behanging on the balance a little bit.
It's important to be patient withthose people, to stay in contact
with those people, to pray forthem along the way offer them love.
And hopefully God will give themthe Holy Spirit to enter their life.
Because the timing is on God.
(35:44):
It's not on us.
All we can do is deliver the gospel.
Yeah, I think that's good.
You know, the word grace just poppedinto my mind and it's a word that
some people throw it around in our.
Culture today, even our churchculture and some people use it
in different ways and all that.
It kind of made me think, Iwanted to go back to something you
(36:04):
brought up at the very beginningand talk about a few things here.
You said that, that AME churchthat you grew up in, I don't know
a lot about that denomination.
I know a little bit, but you saidthat it was, they, they were.
Serious about church thatyou were at the church.
If those doors were open, you were there.
(36:26):
And that was an expectation, obviouslywith the family you're in, was there
a lot of grace in that environment?
and was that something that.
I'm not asking you to be criticalof how you were raised or anything
like that, but I guess I'm sort ofasking, what are some pros and cons of
growing up in that extremely strict,as you worded it, church environment?
(36:52):
I didn't understand exactly, during thattime period, because I was so young, both
of my parents were working at the time.
my mother was a secretary.
My father was a cop.
He was a Cleveland cop.
so the background, my home life, itreally just centered on education.
as far as theological instructionand faith based instruction, that
(37:14):
was really, set aside for Sundays.
but for me, I guess I just didn'tunderstand what the benefits would be
being raised in this type of environment.
but the pros were that itlaid a foundation and, those
(37:35):
theological instructions werereally incorporated through the
moral fabric of my everyday life.
we had to keep the house clean.
we had to respect our neighbors.
It didn't matter who it was.
there was a woman next doorwho was very nice to us.
we had two fruit trees in the back andsometimes I'll be in a bad, you know,
(37:56):
kind of, my kids already get mischievousand I would throw cherries in there.
my mother made me actuallyclean up her driveway.
Well,
And later on, come to find outthat woman was a prostitute,
but it didn't matter becauseno one told me that that woman,
(38:20):
was breaking the commandments.
The theological instructionthat was incorporated, it was
incorporated in my moral conduct.
Hey, listen, you disrespected that woman.
You get up there and youclean up my driveway.
So later on in life, after highschool, I broke away, but I came
back because I had that foundation.
(38:42):
And those were the pros.
Those were the pros.
I had something to fall back on becausewhen I saw other young people who
possibly didn't have that foundation.
And they would just let us strayand they didn't make it back.
And now I can actually thankGod and I do every day.
(39:05):
I thank God for actually giving methe chance, giving me the chance
to deliver his word, giving me.
bringing me up in a spiritually, thespiritual hierarchy that I, that I
had, and it wasn't just my grandfather,brothers, uncles, they were all ministers.
So, God is really blessed me andI, I thank him for that every day.
(39:27):
So those were the, the pros werethe foundation, the cons were that
there was just no knowledge ofunderstanding why I'm doing this.
I remember I'll say thisand it was kind of funny.
my grandfather was called pastorin another church, and this church,
they were conducting funerals.
(39:48):
And they were actually having allthese coffins on the second floor.
I asked my mother about this yesterday.
I said, Mom, do you remember?
I was about maybe six.
She said, I know what you're going to say.
You were seven years old.
And you were liftingup the lizards coffins.
And you were slamming them downand running around the church.
And my grandfather said, Carol,do something with that boy.
(40:11):
So that was that.
there are times we need correction isthat's important to, you know, when you
were talking about your neighbor, thething that came to mind, I think about
this so often and I try to visualize thisscene of Jesus with the woman at the well
and the language that he used with her.
(40:32):
and I try to do it because attimes I could be fairly stern in
the way I speak and, you know, itcould come across strong and I just
think about him in that situation.
And I think if we use thatexample more, the world would be
a little bit of a better place.
One thing I definitely want to ask about,I'm kind of progressing a little bit and
picking off some things from earlier.
(40:54):
When you went into ministry andspecifically when you went into chaplaincy
within the prison, what are some things,I know you said you don't do that as
much now or you don't do that anymore.
What are some things that you'velearned or pulled from that
experience that you're still usingtoday while you were within prison?
(41:15):
Because that's one of the.
toughest ministry situations that I hear.
I've done some things in elderlycare homes and all that, but
I've never gone into prisons.
What are some things that you could tellus that you learned from doing prison
ministry that's still with you today?
There were 2 things,well, really 3, really 3.
The 1st thing that I, that I learnedin that environment, in the prison
(41:41):
environment, because I was, at that time,ministering, 3 different facilities, and 1
was actually a maximum security facility.
And there was a certain culture, there's acertain culture, within the prison system.
And never forget, that I first enteredand started working that environment,
(42:07):
I had a very difficult time actually,keep getting across to the inmates.
and one inmate one day he said, youknow, chaplain, want to think about
maybe, talking to the inmates, talkingto the guys individually, you know,
because you do have the authority.
To bring them in.
And when I did that, everything changed.
(42:28):
Everything changed.
And I actually met three,ex-offenders on the street.
This is a true story, on, on the street.
all three of 'em, every last oneof 'em were reunited with their
family, had a job once, starteda job and had a small business.
(42:49):
And we actually had conversations.
We actually had conversations.
When I was actually talking to themindividually, we talked about their
family, we talked about, what got them inthere, we talked about, what would they
like to do when they get out, I talkedabout their educational goals, how they
feel about certain things, what they'regoing through, and they never opened
(43:12):
up, they never opened up while theywere around other inmates what they did
when I was talking to them individually.
The other thing I learned.
Was that I was asked to actually bean arbitrator with other chaplains.
One was a Protestant and the otherone was Catholic and they were
(43:32):
actually having disagreements onhow they were to conduct services.
And I said, this shouldn't, you know,this, this shouldn't happen, but
it did, but, but, but, but it did.
And that was another awakeningexperience for me because I was new.
in into the field.
And when I did that, I just had adifficult time actually reminded them
(43:59):
about how to actually love yourself.
Love your brother, and is why you're here.
You're here.
You know, you're healed to help.
The unfortunate, even if youhave to make a sacrifice.
Even if you have, you have a scheduleand it's going to be interrupted,
(44:21):
a way around it, you know, explain,explain that to your congregation.
You're not, I mean, you're human.
So those were, I guessthose are the other things.
And, the 3rd thing is that,institutions need to be more
supportive of our chaplains.
(44:43):
it's amazing how when we talk about.
Love in Christ.
We'll talk about the love of Godand actually, having the word of God
and the Holy Spirit move through us.
And should allow that to, transform ournature so we can touch other people.
But a lot of times us in thesepositions, we get so caught up into
(45:07):
our ego and the ego is nothing morethan personal interest and personal
interest is a quality of Satan.
And, there were institutions that I foundit difficult to actually get support,
reading materials, books, scriptures,newspapers, because, there were actually
(45:27):
some church officers who felt that, well,you know, I should have had your position.
And I actually received thattype of response and that was for
me, an eye opening experience.
And was also an educationallearning experience
Yeah, I think it's very disappointing Whenthe ministers and the religious people
(45:48):
start arguing amongst themselves about dothis or don't do that, it kind of leads
to what we were talking about a little bitbefore we hit record, just about religion.
The thing I love that you said there,and this is, I want to emphasize this.
I love that you said thatwhen you first went in.
I'm guessing you were probablydoing services and talking
(46:08):
to groups and all that.
And that wasn't getting asfar as you wanted it to.
But when you started having oneon one conversations and the word
I'm going to use is relationship,that's when things change.
And I think.
That relationship is probably theanswer to a lot of things we've been
talking about during this call, Herb.
(46:28):
I think it goes back to some ofthe discrimination and things.
Relationship is what's important,and it may not be collective.
It might be one on one.
It was so good and so powerful thatthe relationship of one on one.
I think what we try to do in our worldtoday is we try to do the easy stuff.
It's easy to get up on stagewith a microphone and talk to
20, 200, 2, 000 people, and thatmight be good, but you know what?
(46:54):
That one on one, that's powerful.
There's one other thing that I saw in yourresume or when I was studying you, you've
done some work, I think with youth andthe topic has been manhood and character
development and things like that.
I guess I'd love to just hear someobservations or I guess I'd just love
for you to share just a little bit.
(47:16):
about what you're seeing there because.
Probably what's going on there atthat youth level is a reflection of
what we're seeing in our culture 10years from now or 20 years from now.
So if we could back up 20years, what we're seeing now
was what was going on with that.
So what, what can you say about that?
(47:38):
What would you like to shareabout that in light of the
conversation we've been having?
would reach out, Iwould say, reach it out.
To the parents who have young males.
And those who actually believe.
And God's word that God has, likeeverything else, we'll talk about
(48:00):
business, but God has a criteria.
God has requirements.
For man, and of those requirementscan be found in the book of
Micah, chapter 6, verse 8.
And he actually list those requirements.
what a man is.
And man from the.
The Hebrew biblical language, and there's3 levels of a man, and that word is
(48:25):
Adam or Adam, but Hebrew definitionis the 1st level is a human being.
So, when we have males, whoare actually, disrespectful.
to their teachers.
to their parents, they'reactually receiving.
(48:47):
Counterproductive again from the world.
they have computers, which isnothing more than a cell phone.
That's the corner, but it's nothingmore than a handheld computer and,
they have access to videos and moviesand, the parents will really be
more observant and more attentiveabout what's entering their mind.
(49:12):
the 2nd level of a man is a hypocrite.
The 3rd level is just a low man.
So they're receiving all thesemessages from different movies.
On what a man is or what a man shouldbe, accumulating vast sums of wealth,
cars, and sex, and, having a lotof different female relationships.
(49:39):
that definition is contrary to thebiblical definition, and we actually
see what's going on right now when theworld defines what a man is, it leads
to violence, it leads to destruction,or what the Bible calls, Now, when
it comes to accumulating wealth orprovisions, of course, and I believe
(50:02):
it's in his, second book of Timothy,where a man has to provide for his
family, because if you don't, you'reconsidered less than, an infidel, but
there's more, there's more, qualities.
To be a man or reaching manhood.
when parents right now, what they shoulddo is they really shouldn't investigate or
(50:25):
if they don't, if they can't investigateit, if they don't have the biblical
knowledge to actually, find out whatthe biblical definition of a man, how to
mold a man's character, go see your localpriest, go see your minister, because
you don't want to, you don't want your,your, your male to get to the point.
where he's 30, 40, 50, 60 years old.
(50:47):
And I, I've actually saw this in my ownlife where someone who I thought I used
to know actually engaged in an argument.
And this man, was in his sixties.
He got into a verbal confrontationa man who was young enough to be his
grandson, who was in his twenties.
And the young man actuallyapologized to him.
(51:10):
And then, he told me about thisexperience and what makes it
so Disturbing but interesting.
He told me and his son later that was hisdefinition of manhood was engaging in an
argument with a, a young man, young enoughto be his grandson in an environment
(51:33):
where people are bereavement in, andI'm telling you, I honestly believe.
There were a lot of, there are womenright now listening to this, were,
I honestly believe they will agreethat there are a lot of men right now
who have reached the stage of lifewhere they're either 40, 50 or older.
(51:54):
who have the wrong conception of man.
And the only way, the only way,to actually find out what the true
definition of manhood and developproperly is to actually go through
Micah chapter 6 verse 8 and there areother biblical scriptures or talk to
(52:17):
your local, minister or your priest.
that's so good, because I do thinkthe root of a lot of our issues
are related to that manhood.
so Herb, it's been a great conversation.
We've talked about a lot of things,but because right now you really are
ministering with, to that business personthat's attempting to, to live and operate
(52:42):
their business by biblical principles.
I think what I'd like to do here with mylast question is I'd love for you to just
speak into the mic, look into the camera,because I think a lot of people want.
to operate their businessby biblical principles.
I think they desire to but maybe it'shard for them to see how that might
happen So i'd love for you to justmaybe encourage them just give a word
(53:04):
of encouragement Just so that peoplecan finish up if they're maybe wrestling
with how they can Operate their businessand make money maybe they're battling
between, serving two masters, mammonor God, and they want to serve God with
their business and all that they do.
just give a word of encouragementfor that business person that
(53:27):
really wants to serve God.
God in all they do.
My 1st word encouragement.
If a business person feels fromthe deep down depth of their soul.
There's something that's not rightin the book of John, it says.
(53:48):
are 3 levels to repent.
And that means 1st of all, youhave to admit the fact that
there's something that's not right.
That's the 1st step.
The 2nd step is to actuallytell God that, Forgive me.
You ask God, you ask Christfor your forgiveness.
And then you seek help.
(54:09):
Because we're talking about the,old books, and those were kings,
you know, back in the Old Testament,they all went to the prophets.
They all, all the rulers, allthe kings, all the princes, all
the merchants, they, They went tothe prophets first to seek help.
So, you know, so you are a rulerand that also brings to the mind.
(54:31):
I'll give us a number one ontime and I'll bring this example.
I actually met with amajor business owner.
It's been a long time ago, but hehad a major insurance agency in
downtown Manhattan in New York.
he pulled me along in his office andwe talked about 10 of those personal
relationships and he had a differentpersonality that he projected when he was
(54:55):
around his sales force, but he showed me adifferent type of guy when we were in his
office and he actually humbled himself.
So, my words of encouragement, whenyou seek help from your minister,
your priest or whoever it is.
that personal relationship, but atfirst it has to start with admitting
(55:17):
to the fact that something's wrongin your life, ask for repentance, and
then physically go out and seek help.
Those are my words of encouragement.
Those are, those are very helpful.
I love the humble yourself.
Herb, if someone wants to reach outto you and connect with you and,
and talk to you more, or find outmore about what you do, what's the
(55:38):
best way for someone to do that?
They can do it two ways, Tim.
they can call me and myphone number is 216 563 2031.
Or, they can actually email me.
At Herbert Burns, thenumber seven at yahoo.
com and, within 24 hours, I will respond.
So,
(55:59):
Nice.
We'll include that down in the notes.
Haven't had many people just flatout, give their phone number.
That's pretty unique.
I actually appreciate that and like that,that shows relationship right there.
So, herb, I appreciatethis final question.
We are seek, go create those three words.
I'm going to allow you or force you topick one of those that just means more
(56:20):
to you or that you want to say somethingabout as my final question, seek, go, Or
create, which one do you choose and why?
I would choose seek because, seekbasically reminds me of when actually
told the disciples to go out andseek those, seek those who need help.
(56:42):
And they were spreading thegospel through all over the world.
That really connects with my ministryis to seek those wherever they are,
wherever they're located throughoutthis country, whether it's in person,
or on zoom to seek those who need helphelping their life, whether it is through
operating their business, accordingto scripture, or maybe they want to
(57:02):
develop into a man and they don't wantto live by the worldly principles.
So see, see, that reallyresonates with me.
Excellent.
Love it.
Herbert Addison burns.
Thank you so much for joiningus here on seek, go create.
I've enjoyed the conversation.
I knew that we would, I told you,it's going to be like you and I
sitting over coffee, just kind oftalking about some deep stuff and
we had some good deep conversation.
(57:24):
For those of you that would like to reachout to Herbert, he gave you his info.
Make sure you do that.
All that'll be down in.
And I also appreciateeveryone listening in here.
We've got new episodes thatrelease on YouTube and all
the platforms every Monday.
I appreciate you continuing tolisten and sharing and making
comments, especially over on YouTube.
(57:46):
Y'all are making some awesome,great comments over on YouTube.
Thank you for that.
Thanks for listening in until next time.
Continue being all thatyou were created to be.
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