July 14, 2025 • 29 mins
Have you ever wondered why the Bible doesn’t always make sense, even after years of reading or attending church? In this episode of Seek Go Create, host Tim Winders kicks off a five-part series exploring the real story behind the pages of scripture, and why true understanding requires more than just effort or hustle. Drawing inspiration from C.S. Lewis, Bono, and his own life journey, Tim invites you to discover what it means to move from striving and performance to genuine peace and transformation. If you've ever felt stuck or confused in your faith, this conversation will give you fresh courage to explore what might be missing—hint: it’s not “trying harder.”
"What if the thing you're missing isn't more effort, but just having more peace?" - Tim Winders
Access all show and episode resources HERE
Reasons to Listen:
- Explore Why the Bible Often Feels Confusing: Tim Winders shares his own journey of struggling to understand the Bible, even after decades in church, offering fresh insights into why scripture sometimes doesn’t make sense—and what to do about it.
- Discover the Life-Changing Concept of the “New Man”: Drawing inspiration from C.S. Lewis and a recent interview with Bono, this episode digs into powerful ideas about identity, transformation, and finding true peace rather than endless hustle.
- Get a Candid Look at Faith “Unlearning”: Tim opens up about losing everything, walking away from hustle culture, and the process of unlearning religious habits to finally discover what the Bible’s story is really all about—paving the way for listeners to reflect on their own spiritual journey.
Key Lessons:
- Striving vs. Abiding - Tim shares his personal journey from living in “hustle culture”—believing success comes only through striving and effort—to discovering the power of peace and abiding. Sometimes, what we’re missing in life and faith isn’t more effort, but a deeper sense of peace.
- Identity Over Performance - A recurring theme is the difference between basing your value on performance versus identity in Christ. Tim highlights that many of us, even in spiritual pursuits, get caught up in proving ourselves, when the biblical message is really about transformation—becoming a new creation rather than simply improving the old self.
- Unlearning in Order to Re-Learn - Despite decades of church involvement and biblical study, Tim realized he didn’t fully grasp the Bible’s overarching story. Real growth began when he allowed himself to unlearn surface-level interpretations and prosperity-focused readings, creating space to rediscover the true narrative of scripture.
- The “New Man” Concept - Drawing inspiration from C.S. Lewis’s “Mere Christianity” (specifically the concept of the “New Man”), Tim explores the idea that genuine transformation in Christ isn’t about minor self-improvement, but becoming a whole new version of ourselves—calm, secure, and truly at peace.
- Scripture Should Lead to Peace, Not Pressure - Tim emphasizes that misunderstanding our identity leads to faith feeling like pressure and obligation. When we really understand who we are in Christ, scripture becomes a source of peace, not stress—and the Bible’s story shifts from being a book of rules to an invitation to personal and spiritual transformation.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Introduction to the Series
00:24 The Journey of Understanding the Bible
03:04 Setting the Stage: Location and Setup
04:41 Personal Journey and Struggles
05:24 The Turning Point: Bono and C.S. Lewis
11:33 The Concept of the New Man
24:25 Contrasting the Old and New...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everyone.
Tim Winders here.
Welcome to episode one of what'sgonna be a five part series, and this
one's titled I'll Get to all thislater, what Bono has or seems to have.
C. S Lewis predicted and most of us are.
Missing.
Yeah, that's a little bit of a teaserhere for the first episode, and a lot
(00:20):
of themes we're gonna be looking athere, identity versus performance.
Talking about the new man that CSLewis discussed in his book, mayor
Christianity, and why this matters forus and sort of my journey that I've been
on for the last two or three years in.
Trying to be clear on what this bookhere, for those people that might
(00:41):
be watching on the video, the Biblereally means, and this is coming from
someone who's been reading it andthinking, I've been studying it for
30 plus years and coming to terms withjust really over the last few years,
Understanding it more, maybe notcompletely, but more, but let me tell
you what this season is all about.
(01:04):
and it sort of revolves around thisquestion of what if the thing you're
missing isn't more effort doing morehustling more, but just having more.
Peace.
That's sort of the opposite of whatwe're taught in the world we're in
today, but it's what we hear aboutin the Bible and scriptures and
(01:25):
something that I've been walking outreally more over the last few years.
I don't think I've arrived.
And the second thing, I guess the questionis, what if the confusion you feel about
maybe your faith or life or things thatare going on, the surroundings, what's
happening in the world, it's becauseyou've been trying to become something
(01:46):
that God never asked you to become.
And so we're gonna talk about thata good bit in not just this episode.
But this next five part series andthis series is, I'm titling it Why The
Bible doesn't Make Sense Yet, and it'sa five part journey through confusion,
(02:06):
context, and what I'm calling Kingdom.
Clarity.
If you've ever felt stuck in your faithor unsure about maybe what scripture
means or there are just certain chunksof the Bible that you go, I don't know
what is going on there, what it reallymeans, you're in the right place.
That's what we're gonnabe discussing here.
'cause that's where I was a few yearsago after I had gone to Bible school,
(02:29):
after I had attended churches andstudied for a large portion of my life.
And in many ways I almost disconnectedfrom a lot of that and just spent
quiet time studying, being at peaceand rest, and learning more about
what the story of the Bible really is.
(02:50):
So I wanna welcome you to this series.
As I said earlier, I'm Tim Winders.
This is my walk from striving toabiding, from making scripture
fit to letting it speak.
So, let's begin.
Let's get started.
Most of you know I typically broadcast,or I typically share my episodes
and do our interviews from the RV,from our moving and mobile office.
(03:15):
Theo that we've named our rv,but, not now, not for this series.
I believe, and maybe not for the nextfew interviews I'm gonna be doing, I'm
actually in a location in the Atlantametro area where I'm doing some work.
More and more I'm travelingin and out of here.
So I've set up in a spare bedroom.
I've got some shelves with some.
(03:36):
I guess just some props behind me.
'cause these aren't necessarily mine.
I'm gonna be adding my books andall of these shelves over time.
I do have my studio set up here andI'm still sort of getting used to it.
So you're, you're steppinginto it just like myself.
But, welcome into the, Atlanta Metroversion of Seek, go Create studios.
(03:59):
I think we're gonna have fun withthis because I'm actually gonna be
setting up here over to my right.
I guess it'll be your left.
There's gonna be a place whereI could do in person interviews
and I'm hopeful to do that.
I think that's gonna be fun.
I just wanna mention for those thatmight be going, wait, where's the rv?
He's not in the RV currently as I'mrecording this, the RV is still located
(04:22):
in the Black Hills of South Dakota.
I'm in the Atlanta area and my wife Gloriais here with me for the next few weeks.
Then we'll be flyingback to, South Dakota.
So that's kinda what's going on.
But let's dive in.
This is.
Kind of an important,I guess topic for me.
I have been not wrestling with it, butI've just been wondering how I wanted
(04:46):
to share this part of my journey.
You know, seek, go Create isreally a journey type podcast.
That's what we talk about when weinterview guests, and it's really been
my journey now for 300 plus episodes.
And this next series, or these nextfew episodes are really me trying to
(05:06):
capture what I've been through, whatI've been journeying, or the path
I've been going down for the lastreally 3, 4, 5 years, but for the
last two years, really, really strong.
With just coming to understandthings a little bit more.
And the cool thing about this episodeis it's kind of come to a head with
(05:30):
a recent podcast that I listened towith Bono on Joe Rogan's podcast.
I recently read Mayor Christianity fromCS Lewis, and it kind of gave me the.
Theme that I want us to begin withas we sort of travel down this
path that I've been going down.
So, so we're starting with this,we're starting with Bono Cs Lewis,
(05:53):
the Bible, and, we're gonna,we're gonna have some fun with it.
Many of you may or may not know mypast is that I've always been, I've
kind of told people I'm a child ofthe sixties and seventies and I came.
To my work, I guess my work world and allkind of came into being in the eighties.
(06:14):
In the eighties.
For those of you that mightbe young and don't remember,
it was the go go go eighties.
there was a movie called Wall Street.
Gordon Gecko was in that movieThere was a statement that he made
that's, greed is good, and thatwas sort of the way that I lived.
(06:35):
I was gonna be successful,I was gonna make money.
I probably had a. Bit of a spiritualfoundation from people that had
been praying for me over the years,grandparents and things like that.
But I was just going to be successful.
My college life, what I wanted todo, the work I wanted to do was all
about succeeding and much of thatrevolved around financial success.
(06:58):
And I was going at it.
I would, would've been a definitionif you looked in the dictionary
under hustle, culture or hustle.
That would've been me in the eighties,nineties, probably into the two thousands.
And I was just striving to succeed.
I wanted to impress.
I wanted to make my mark.
I wanted to perform, I wanted to produce,and I was doing that even after I came
(07:23):
to know Christ in the early ninetiesin ministry and even in leadership.
I was still striving.
I mean, even when I knewthat Jesus said My peace.
I bring and give to you.
I still felt like if, if itwas to be, it was up to me.
(07:43):
I mean, I was chasing, and some ofyou may be able to relate to that.
I mean, I was just go, go, go.
I would convince myself Iwasn't tired and exhausted.
I was living off of adrenalineand all of that was fine and good.
I mean, I had some upsand downs along the way.
Worked corporate for awhile, had my own business.
We had our own businesses in the earlytwo thousands, but I could tell you
(08:06):
when it started unraveling, it startedunraveling in 2008 when multiple companies
that we had all in real estate, we wereliving in a big house, thought we were
doing well, all that kind of stuff.
When all of that stuff, I realized thatI. Couldn't do what I wanted to do.
(08:28):
I couldn't impress, I couldn'tjust hustle my way out of things.
I couldn't do it under my own power.
I realized as I sort of hit awall and financially we went, went
through bankruptcy, I had burnout.
I questioned a lot of things.
I questioned a lot of things spiritually.
I. I say I spent a lot of time in prayer.
(08:50):
It was probably a lot of whiningand just crying out to the Lord.
I hit a wall and mostpeople have hit a wall.
You know, there's the themethat I've seen as I do a lot of
interviews on seek, go create ofpeople making significant change.
In their lives only aftersome catalytic event.
(09:11):
Well, my catalytic event was 2008,roughly to 2012, 13, where we went through
this slow downward spiral of losing ourhome, becoming homeless, going bankrupt
financially, not knowing What we weregoing to do, and that is when we, left
our home of 6,000 square feet ish,whatever, and moved into a Honda van.
(09:35):
I only mentioned the size of thehouse, to give you the perspective
of going from big to extremely small,putting a few things in storage.
Thankfully we had some familythat helped us out to keep us
from just being totally destitute.
But, we just hit the road andtraveled and did that for a few years.
Then went to Bible school for afew years, and then financially
(09:59):
we were doing much better.
and then, my wife said weshould move into an rv.
So that's kind of thestory that led to the rv.
But what happened duringthat time after oh eight?
It forced me.
I was forced to slow downand reevaluate everything,
including how I understood this.
(10:20):
I'm holding it up for people in the,on the, uh, that are listening in,
but for people watching the video.
I had to rethink how I understood theBible because what I had been doing
up to that point, and really up untiljust a few years ago, is I would
dive into the Bible and I would lookfor the formulas that would help me.
(10:41):
I. Succeed that wouldhelp me be successful.
I mean, I had a pretty healthy backgroundin the Prosperity Gospel and that's, you
know, kind of the base and foundationof that is taking scriptures and
trying to use them for your success.
It's a lot more than that,but that's what I was doing.
And the reason I bring it up isI know a lot of people do that.
(11:04):
I believe modern churches.
Most of them, I believe, and especiallyin, Americanized or westernized
churches, they really have thatprosperity gospel baked into them.
And so I think a lot ofpeople deal with that.
I'm gonna talk about the journeythat I went through and some of the
(11:26):
realizations that I came to justfrom a spiritual foundation in some
of the episodes that are coming up.
But what I wanna do here is I wantto, I. I wanna kind of begin as
Covey would say with the end in mind.
And so the best description I'veseen of the end is what CS Lewis
(11:51):
describes in Mayor Christianity.
Now, not too long ago I decidedto read Mayor Christianity and
my wife Gloria loves CS Lewis,and I don't dislike CS Lewis.
It's just.
Man.
He is, he is rich with his language.
And, and I, I've tried to readthrough the Narnia stories.
(12:11):
You know, he wrote The Chroniclesof Narnia, which are famous, I guess
in the, in the circles of fictionand also in spiritual fiction world.
But I, I just can't quite get.
Through those and, and glory.
My wife says, you need to readCS Lewis because of this and
his understanding and his depth.
(12:33):
And I don't disagree with that.
so what I did was, sometime back I decidedI was gonna read, mayor Christianity.
Got a copy of it righthere, mayor Christianity.
Which is sort of foundational.
It's not a fiction book like,the Chronicles of Narnia.
But what I wanted to do is Iwas just gonna go through it.
I was gonna read a chapter a day,meditate on it, think about it.
(12:53):
And I did that.
For those that may not be aware mereChristianity, Is a book that CS Lewis,
it's a book that came from some talksthat he did during World War ii.
He's British and Britain, the islands werebeing bombed by Germany much of this time.
There was a lot of fear, therewas a lot of things going on.
(13:13):
And I think what he was doing was, someof those talks that he did on the radio
was just trying to make sense of it.
trying to project some peaceand all for people, I believe
is what he was trying to do.
I'm, I think I've read that history.
And so I enjoyed it becausethey took those talks and then
put them in a book or he did.
And then, so that's thebook, mayor Christianity.
(13:34):
But I really, I didn't enjoy it likeI believe I should until the last
chapter, which is titled The New Man.
And I'm going to get to that in justa moment and talk more about it.
But when I read that chapter, Bells wentoff in my head and I went, that is my
(13:57):
goal, is to be what he's talking about.
That's what I've been seeking.
That's what I've been searching for.
That's the feeling, the nourishmentthat I want to have in my soul
is what he describes there.
And I'll talk about it more in just amoment, but let me mention the second
thing that I wanna talk about in this.
(14:17):
A few weeks ago, I listened toJoe Rogan from time to time.
I don't listen to all his stuff, butI, I love what he's able to do with a.
Three, three and a half hour interview.
I wish I could do those.
I wish I could have guests that wecould just talk and go into depth.
Because one of the things I don't thinkyou could do with a long form interview
(14:40):
is I don't think you could hide.
I think that.
Who you are can be flushed out.
I don't think you could pretendfor that period of time.
but Bono was on Joe Rogan, andI've always been intrigued by Bono.
he's one that years ago,I mean, I love his music.
I'm a child of the eighties and all that.
When U2 and the Bandies in werebecoming popular and doing well,
(15:02):
and a few years ago I did see.
U2 on their Joshua Tree tour wherethey did the entire Joshua Tree album.
Streets With No Name andall those cool songs.
They did that in Concert Live.
That was really, really cool.
Saw those in stadiums.
So I like Bono, but I, I've neverreally heard him speak at length.
(15:24):
Well, I'll tell you that thislong form interview that he
did with Joe Rogan, I was justsitting here in my mind going, he.
Seems to be.
One of the new men, the new manthat CS Lewis is talking about.
Bono seems to be in that place.
And some of you, if you're cynical, youwould say, well, he is got a lot of money.
(15:47):
He's famous and all that.
Yeah.
It's not that a lot of peoplethat are famous and have a lot of
money, they don't have that piece.
They, they're, they're just going througha mess and we see a lot of that play out.
Bono's just.
He's relaxed and I, I, I know heis, got a spiritual presence to
him and there's just a piece there.
(16:08):
He was on there, he was promoting abook, I believe, but that it didn't
feel like there was an agenda.
He was just abiding.
And that's when it hit me asI was listening to Joe Rogan.
Not long before I had read thisMayor Christianity, the chapter,
the new man that CS Lewisdiscussed, and it just went, bam.
(16:29):
That is an example of what CSLewis was talking about, and it's
an example of what I desire, Iseek to be that that is described.
I'm gonna describe it in just a momentso you'll know what I'm talking about.
that is.
What we're looking at here, andI think what I wanna do now is I
(16:53):
want to, define a little bit moreof what CS Lewis was talking about.
So my apologies, but I'm actuallygonna read a little bit from
the, mayor Christianity book.
And again, everything that I'm talkingabout here is from the last chapter.
So anyway, I've got a bunch of thingshighlighted in this last chapter.
(17:14):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna justkinda hit some of those so that
you can get a flavor of it.
I recommend this book, definitelyMayor Christianity, but I really
recommend the last chapter and,and to me again, it's what.
It's what we're working towards.
So one of the things he mentions here isthat we are not looking for improvement.
(17:36):
I think many times I would readscripture, I would go to church,
I would try to have relationshipwith Christ in order to improve.
But what CS Lewis, says here isthat we're not looking for mere
improvement or being better.
What we are desiring is transformationand that is being a new man.
(18:00):
That's what he talks about here.
So that was one underline, andthen CS Lewis says here, I should
not be surprised if when the thinghappened, very few people noticed.
That it was happening.
In other words, thetransformation to being a new man.
And, anyway, he's just kind of givingsome history here, he says, and really
(18:20):
what we're doing is we're looking tomake a change from being creatures of God
to this is so good to being sons of Godlater when I talk about in other episodes.
What the story of the Bible is all about.
I believe that's what it's all about.
(18:41):
It's about us moving from beingcreatures of God to being sons of God.
That's very important when one startstrying to understand books like revelation
and eschatology and end times is, is whatwe're moving towards or being sons of God.
Let's see something else.
Here we are.
(19:03):
He talks about the steps of goingfrom being a creature to being a son.
It is voluntary.
It's something that we do pursue andallow and also receive it, but we do have
that choice and a lot of people get maybeconfused about that, but it is a choice,
and so it's a journey that we go on.
(19:25):
That's what we talk about here on Seek Go.
Great.
This is the journey that we go on.
And one of the things CS Lewissays, he says, I have called Christ
the first instance of a new man.
He's the first.
He is the new man.
And then one of the things I wanna do,this is the paragraph that when I read
(19:46):
this, it just exploded in my mind.
I'm going, that's it.
That's it.
That's it.
That's what I desire to be.
So I'm gonna read a little bit,my apologies, but this is from
almost the end of the book.
And c. S Lewis says already,the new men are dotted here
(20:07):
and there all over the earth.
Some, as I have admitted, are still hardlyrecognizable, but others can be recognized
every now and then one meets them.
Their very voices and facesare different from ours.
Stronger, quieter, happier, more radiant.
They begin where most of us leaveoff, they are, I say recognizable,
(20:29):
but you must know what to look for.
They will not be very like the ideaof religious people, which you have
formed from your general reading.
They do not draw attention to themselves.
They tend to think that you are beingkind to them when they are really.
Being kind to you.
They love you more than othermen do, but they need you less.
(20:54):
They will usually seemto have a lot of time.
You will wonder where it comes fromwhen you have recognized one of them.
You will recognize thenext one much more easily.
Anyway, to put it at the verylowest, it must be great, great fun.
And here's what CS Lewis says about it.
(21:17):
And this is really, I guess, theexclamation point on the journey.
He said it is something like that withChrist and us, the more we get what
we now call ourselves out of the way.
And let him take us over.
The more truly ourselves we becomeIn that sense, our real selves
(21:42):
are all waiting for us in him.
When we hear that term inChrist, that's what it is.
So it's a real giving up of self.
And you know that there's a word that wehear a lot, and that word is authentic.
It's real.
And sometimes we don't knowexactly what that means.
(22:03):
That's what CS Lewis I think is capturingin this new man is being authentic.
So the reason that I tied thatin with Bono is that I don't
think we have a lot of examples.
Bono was a great example and so that'sthe reason that I wanted to talk about.
Bono on this.
You know, there, thereare some other examples.
(22:24):
I may get to them in just a moment,but, uh, you just know it some,
here's some descriptions that I'vetaken to kind of help me with it.
The new man is calm.
Is present.
Peaceful.
They're secure in their identity,comfortable in their own skin.
They're not reactive.
(22:44):
They seem to be more proactive.
Nothing seems to shock or surprise them.
They're not addicted to performance.
I told you that I was maybe stillare a little bit working on that.
They're comfortable in their own skin.
They're just at peace and relaxed.
You don't feel hurried.
They don't feel distracted.
(23:05):
You know, we're a very distracted worldin society right now, but think, like
I said, bono, if you go listen to thatJoe Rogan episode, he's just relaxed.
Bono, one of the biggest rockstars I think in the world.
Most people know who he is.
It is just sitting there withJoe Rogan having conversation
telling him, you know what?
(23:26):
you've got a good touch, a goodfeel for what's going on in society.
I wanted to come talk to you.
He's telling Joe Rogan thatBono is telling him that.
So anyway, Bono's a great example.
Another great example that seems to bethis way is Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers.
He was cool and peaceful and relaxedand, You know, just invited people in.
(23:49):
You just kinda wanted to be around him.
Didn't get bogged downwith a lot of junky stuff.
Just kinda seemed to rise above it.
A few others that sortof seemed that way to me.
Dallas Willard, Eugene Peterson, you know,they lived quiet, powerful, anchored.
Lives and I'm sure there are othersand maybe, maybe it's tough to look
(24:12):
at examples like this and probablya lot of people that we don't even
know who they are, are this way.
And I think that that is, I think it'sgood to just have examples like that.
Alright, so if we talk about the newman, we need to contrast the old man.
And I can do this becauseI. Believe I was that way.
(24:38):
Always anxious.
Very performative caught in comparisonand in the world we're in today
with social media, the comparisonthing can just eat away at you.
It can just knowledge your soul.
Always striving for approval,always trying to impress,
and that is the old man now.
(25:00):
Why does this matter?
For what we're talking about withthis series, many will read scripture.
Or the Bible or they'll go to church orthey'll do their spiritual stuff like
it's a to-do list or a self-help guide, orthey're, they will try to twist scriptures
(25:25):
to fit their beliefs and dogmas guilty.
Guilty, guilty.
I have done that.
I have taken scripture and taught onit and shared information and, and,
and I've known that maybe I didn't havea full grasp of the biblical story.
(25:47):
Well, only in the last few years, haveI. Come to grasp the biblical story more.
The Bible is about a transformedidentity living from who we are in
Christ, not toward it, not seekingit, not looking to get to that.
And this shift made me realizehow off track my reading had been.
(26:11):
How what I was trying to do was.
Find something that would fitwith how I was living, not change
the way I was living to makeit fit the biblical narrative.
And it just really set thefoundation for everything else.
Now, the thing that I don't want to do,but I'm about to do it, so I'm letting
(26:32):
you warn, I'm warning you right upfront, is I don't want to get in the
mode of just plucking out scriptures.
I see that happen so much.
I don't wanna do that, but.
It.
There are some scriptures that I'mgonna use to kinda hammer home.
I guess what we're talking about here,second Corinthians five 17, if anyone
(26:53):
is in Christ, he is a new creationand that is what we are moving towards
a new creation, both individuallyand I believe as a society and as
a culture and as a family of God.
Romans 12, two be trans.
Formed by the renewing of your mind.
(27:15):
And then John 15, five, abidein me apart from me talking
about Christ apart from me.
You can do.
Nothing.
And so that's where, that's thejourney we're walking on, and I
wanted to kind of set the stage forwhat CS Lewis called the New Man.
(27:38):
The example that I saw in Bono.
I. As what we are maybe moving towards.
Not that we're trying to put Bono upwith Christ or see us Lewis with Christ,
but they just provide us examples.
So, and listen, here's the deal.
If we don't know who we are.
The Bible will always feellike pressure, not peace.
(28:01):
And in fact, a lot of people can get alluncomfortable if they're in a religious
setting where they're trying to establishall these rules and regulations law,
and they could use these scriptures.
It's easy to do and createpressure, not peace.
This Bible, I'm puttingmy hand on it right here.
(28:23):
It should.
Bring peace if we understandwhat that story is.
And then next time, in the next episode,what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna share
why after decades, literally decadesof being in church and studying,
going to Bible school for a few years.
(28:45):
I still didn't understand the Biblestory, and here's what I know from
interacting with a lot of people,churches, bible school, things like
that, they don't understand it either.
And I'm not trying to be critical.
I'm not trying to judge or condemn.
I just know that was my journey.
And I know from interacting withpeople, it's their journey too.
And so I am gonna walk through how Ibegan unlearning so I could relearn what.
(29:13):
Was true.
So, listen, next time get ready because,we're gonna get into more of, you
know, how to truly, truly understandwhat the story of the Bible really is.
We'll see you next weekon Seek, go Create.
Hello everyone.
Tim Winders here.
Welcome to episode one of what'sgonna be a five part series, and this
one's titled I'll Get to all thislater, what Bono has or seems to have.
C. S Lewis predicted and most of us are.
Missing.
Yeah, that's a little bit of a teaserhere for the first episode, and a lot
(00:20):
of themes we're gonna be looking athere, identity versus performance.
Talking about the new man that CSLewis discussed in his book, mayor
Christianity, and why this matters forus and sort of my journey that I've been
on for the last two or three years in.
Trying to be clear on what this bookhere, for those people that might
(00:41):
be watching on the video, the Biblereally means, and this is coming from
someone who's been reading it andthinking, I've been studying it for
30 plus years and coming to terms withjust really over the last few years,
Understanding it more, maybe notcompletely, but more, but let me tell
you what this season is all about.
(01:04):
and it sort of revolves around thisquestion of what if the thing you're
missing isn't more effort doing morehustling more, but just having more.
Peace.
That's sort of the opposite of whatwe're taught in the world we're in
today, but it's what we hear aboutin the Bible and scriptures and
(01:25):
something that I've been walking outreally more over the last few years.
I don't think I've arrived.
And the second thing, I guess the questionis, what if the confusion you feel about
maybe your faith or life or things thatare going on, the surroundings, what's
happening in the world, it's becauseyou've been trying to become something
(01:46):
that God never asked you to become.
And so we're gonna talk about thata good bit in not just this episode.
But this next five part series andthis series is, I'm titling it Why The
Bible doesn't Make Sense Yet, and it'sa five part journey through confusion,
(02:06):
context, and what I'm calling Kingdom.
Clarity.
If you've ever felt stuck in your faithor unsure about maybe what scripture
means or there are just certain chunksof the Bible that you go, I don't know
what is going on there, what it reallymeans, you're in the right place.
That's what we're gonnabe discussing here.
'cause that's where I was a few yearsago after I had gone to Bible school,
(02:29):
after I had attended churches andstudied for a large portion of my life.
And in many ways I almost disconnectedfrom a lot of that and just spent
quiet time studying, being at peaceand rest, and learning more about
what the story of the Bible really is.
(02:50):
So I wanna welcome you to this series.
As I said earlier, I'm Tim Winders.
This is my walk from striving toabiding, from making scripture
fit to letting it speak.
So, let's begin.
Let's get started.
Most of you know I typically broadcast,or I typically share my episodes
and do our interviews from the RV,from our moving and mobile office.
(03:15):
Theo that we've named our rv,but, not now, not for this series.
I believe, and maybe not for the nextfew interviews I'm gonna be doing, I'm
actually in a location in the Atlantametro area where I'm doing some work.
More and more I'm travelingin and out of here.
So I've set up in a spare bedroom.
I've got some shelves with some.
(03:36):
I guess just some props behind me.
'cause these aren't necessarily mine.
I'm gonna be adding my books andall of these shelves over time.
I do have my studio set up here andI'm still sort of getting used to it.
So you're, you're steppinginto it just like myself.
But, welcome into the, Atlanta Metroversion of Seek, go Create studios.
(03:59):
I think we're gonna have fun withthis because I'm actually gonna be
setting up here over to my right.
I guess it'll be your left.
There's gonna be a place whereI could do in person interviews
and I'm hopeful to do that.
I think that's gonna be fun.
I just wanna mention for those thatmight be going, wait, where's the rv?
He's not in the RV currently as I'mrecording this, the RV is still located
(04:22):
in the Black Hills of South Dakota.
I'm in the Atlanta area and my wife Gloriais here with me for the next few weeks.
Then we'll be flyingback to, South Dakota.
So that's kinda what's going on.
But let's dive in.
This is.
Kind of an important,I guess topic for me.
I have been not wrestling with it, butI've just been wondering how I wanted
(04:46):
to share this part of my journey.
You know, seek, go Create isreally a journey type podcast.
That's what we talk about when weinterview guests, and it's really been
my journey now for 300 plus episodes.
And this next series, or these nextfew episodes are really me trying to
(05:06):
capture what I've been through, whatI've been journeying, or the path
I've been going down for the lastreally 3, 4, 5 years, but for the
last two years, really, really strong.
With just coming to understandthings a little bit more.
And the cool thing about this episodeis it's kind of come to a head with
(05:30):
a recent podcast that I listened towith Bono on Joe Rogan's podcast.
I recently read Mayor Christianity fromCS Lewis, and it kind of gave me the.
Theme that I want us to begin withas we sort of travel down this
path that I've been going down.
So, so we're starting with this,we're starting with Bono Cs Lewis,
(05:53):
the Bible, and, we're gonna,we're gonna have some fun with it.
Many of you may or may not know mypast is that I've always been, I've
kind of told people I'm a child ofthe sixties and seventies and I came.
To my work, I guess my work world and allkind of came into being in the eighties.
(06:14):
In the eighties.
For those of you that mightbe young and don't remember,
it was the go go go eighties.
there was a movie called Wall Street.
Gordon Gecko was in that movieThere was a statement that he made
that's, greed is good, and thatwas sort of the way that I lived.
(06:35):
I was gonna be successful,I was gonna make money.
I probably had a. Bit of a spiritualfoundation from people that had
been praying for me over the years,grandparents and things like that.
But I was just going to be successful.
My college life, what I wanted todo, the work I wanted to do was all
about succeeding and much of thatrevolved around financial success.
(06:58):
And I was going at it.
I would, would've been a definitionif you looked in the dictionary
under hustle, culture or hustle.
That would've been me in the eighties,nineties, probably into the two thousands.
And I was just striving to succeed.
I wanted to impress.
I wanted to make my mark.
I wanted to perform, I wanted to produce,and I was doing that even after I came
(07:23):
to know Christ in the early ninetiesin ministry and even in leadership.
I was still striving.
I mean, even when I knewthat Jesus said My peace.
I bring and give to you.
I still felt like if, if itwas to be, it was up to me.
(07:43):
I mean, I was chasing, and some ofyou may be able to relate to that.
I mean, I was just go, go, go.
I would convince myself Iwasn't tired and exhausted.
I was living off of adrenalineand all of that was fine and good.
I mean, I had some upsand downs along the way.
Worked corporate for awhile, had my own business.
We had our own businesses in the earlytwo thousands, but I could tell you
(08:06):
when it started unraveling, it startedunraveling in 2008 when multiple companies
that we had all in real estate, we wereliving in a big house, thought we were
doing well, all that kind of stuff.
When all of that stuff, I realized thatI. Couldn't do what I wanted to do.
(08:28):
I couldn't impress, I couldn'tjust hustle my way out of things.
I couldn't do it under my own power.
I realized as I sort of hit awall and financially we went, went
through bankruptcy, I had burnout.
I questioned a lot of things.
I questioned a lot of things spiritually.
I. I say I spent a lot of time in prayer.
(08:50):
It was probably a lot of whiningand just crying out to the Lord.
I hit a wall and mostpeople have hit a wall.
You know, there's the themethat I've seen as I do a lot of
interviews on seek, go create ofpeople making significant change.
In their lives only aftersome catalytic event.
(09:11):
Well, my catalytic event was 2008,roughly to 2012, 13, where we went through
this slow downward spiral of losing ourhome, becoming homeless, going bankrupt
financially, not knowing What we weregoing to do, and that is when we, left
our home of 6,000 square feet ish,whatever, and moved into a Honda van.
(09:35):
I only mentioned the size of thehouse, to give you the perspective
of going from big to extremely small,putting a few things in storage.
Thankfully we had some familythat helped us out to keep us
from just being totally destitute.
But, we just hit the road andtraveled and did that for a few years.
Then went to Bible school for afew years, and then financially
(09:59):
we were doing much better.
and then, my wife said weshould move into an rv.
So that's kind of thestory that led to the rv.
But what happened duringthat time after oh eight?
It forced me.
I was forced to slow downand reevaluate everything,
including how I understood this.
(10:20):
I'm holding it up for people in the,on the, uh, that are listening in,
but for people watching the video.
I had to rethink how I understood theBible because what I had been doing
up to that point, and really up untiljust a few years ago, is I would
dive into the Bible and I would lookfor the formulas that would help me.
(10:41):
I. Succeed that wouldhelp me be successful.
I mean, I had a pretty healthy backgroundin the Prosperity Gospel and that's, you
know, kind of the base and foundationof that is taking scriptures and
trying to use them for your success.
It's a lot more than that,but that's what I was doing.
And the reason I bring it up isI know a lot of people do that.
(11:04):
I believe modern churches.
Most of them, I believe, and especiallyin, Americanized or westernized
churches, they really have thatprosperity gospel baked into them.
And so I think a lot ofpeople deal with that.
I'm gonna talk about the journeythat I went through and some of the
(11:26):
realizations that I came to justfrom a spiritual foundation in some
of the episodes that are coming up.
But what I wanna do here is I wantto, I. I wanna kind of begin as
Covey would say with the end in mind.
And so the best description I'veseen of the end is what CS Lewis
(11:51):
describes in Mayor Christianity.
Now, not too long ago I decidedto read Mayor Christianity and
my wife Gloria loves CS Lewis,and I don't dislike CS Lewis.
It's just.
Man.
He is, he is rich with his language.
And, and I, I've tried to readthrough the Narnia stories.
(12:11):
You know, he wrote The Chroniclesof Narnia, which are famous, I guess
in the, in the circles of fictionand also in spiritual fiction world.
But I, I just can't quite get.
Through those and, and glory.
My wife says, you need to readCS Lewis because of this and
his understanding and his depth.
(12:33):
And I don't disagree with that.
so what I did was, sometime back I decidedI was gonna read, mayor Christianity.
Got a copy of it righthere, mayor Christianity.
Which is sort of foundational.
It's not a fiction book like,the Chronicles of Narnia.
But what I wanted to do is Iwas just gonna go through it.
I was gonna read a chapter a day,meditate on it, think about it.
(12:53):
And I did that.
For those that may not be aware mereChristianity, Is a book that CS Lewis,
it's a book that came from some talksthat he did during World War ii.
He's British and Britain, the islands werebeing bombed by Germany much of this time.
There was a lot of fear, therewas a lot of things going on.
(13:13):
And I think what he was doing was, someof those talks that he did on the radio
was just trying to make sense of it.
trying to project some peaceand all for people, I believe
is what he was trying to do.
I'm, I think I've read that history.
And so I enjoyed it becausethey took those talks and then
put them in a book or he did.
And then, so that's thebook, mayor Christianity.
(13:34):
But I really, I didn't enjoy it likeI believe I should until the last
chapter, which is titled The New Man.
And I'm going to get to that in justa moment and talk more about it.
But when I read that chapter, Bells wentoff in my head and I went, that is my
(13:57):
goal, is to be what he's talking about.
That's what I've been seeking.
That's what I've been searching for.
That's the feeling, the nourishmentthat I want to have in my soul
is what he describes there.
And I'll talk about it more in just amoment, but let me mention the second
thing that I wanna talk about in this.
(14:17):
A few weeks ago, I listened toJoe Rogan from time to time.
I don't listen to all his stuff, butI, I love what he's able to do with a.
Three, three and a half hour interview.
I wish I could do those.
I wish I could have guests that wecould just talk and go into depth.
Because one of the things I don't thinkyou could do with a long form interview
(14:40):
is I don't think you could hide.
I think that.
Who you are can be flushed out.
I don't think you could pretendfor that period of time.
but Bono was on Joe Rogan, andI've always been intrigued by Bono.
he's one that years ago,I mean, I love his music.
I'm a child of the eighties and all that.
When U2 and the Bandies in werebecoming popular and doing well,
(15:02):
and a few years ago I did see.
U2 on their Joshua Tree tour wherethey did the entire Joshua Tree album.
Streets With No Name andall those cool songs.
They did that in Concert Live.
That was really, really cool.
Saw those in stadiums.
So I like Bono, but I, I've neverreally heard him speak at length.
(15:24):
Well, I'll tell you that thislong form interview that he
did with Joe Rogan, I was justsitting here in my mind going, he.
Seems to be.
One of the new men, the new manthat CS Lewis is talking about.
Bono seems to be in that place.
And some of you, if you're cynical, youwould say, well, he is got a lot of money.
(15:47):
He's famous and all that.
Yeah.
It's not that a lot of peoplethat are famous and have a lot of
money, they don't have that piece.
They, they're, they're just going througha mess and we see a lot of that play out.
Bono's just.
He's relaxed and I, I, I know heis, got a spiritual presence to
him and there's just a piece there.
(16:08):
He was on there, he was promoting abook, I believe, but that it didn't
feel like there was an agenda.
He was just abiding.
And that's when it hit me asI was listening to Joe Rogan.
Not long before I had read thisMayor Christianity, the chapter,
the new man that CS Lewisdiscussed, and it just went, bam.
(16:29):
That is an example of what CSLewis was talking about, and it's
an example of what I desire, Iseek to be that that is described.
I'm gonna describe it in just a momentso you'll know what I'm talking about.
that is.
What we're looking at here, andI think what I wanna do now is I
(16:53):
want to, define a little bit moreof what CS Lewis was talking about.
So my apologies, but I'm actuallygonna read a little bit from
the, mayor Christianity book.
And again, everything that I'm talkingabout here is from the last chapter.
So anyway, I've got a bunch of thingshighlighted in this last chapter.
(17:14):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna justkinda hit some of those so that
you can get a flavor of it.
I recommend this book, definitelyMayor Christianity, but I really
recommend the last chapter and,and to me again, it's what.
It's what we're working towards.
So one of the things he mentions here isthat we are not looking for improvement.
(17:36):
I think many times I would readscripture, I would go to church,
I would try to have relationshipwith Christ in order to improve.
But what CS Lewis, says here isthat we're not looking for mere
improvement or being better.
What we are desiring is transformationand that is being a new man.
(18:00):
That's what he talks about here.
So that was one underline, andthen CS Lewis says here, I should
not be surprised if when the thinghappened, very few people noticed.
That it was happening.
In other words, thetransformation to being a new man.
And, anyway, he's just kind of givingsome history here, he says, and really
(18:20):
what we're doing is we're looking tomake a change from being creatures of God
to this is so good to being sons of Godlater when I talk about in other episodes.
What the story of the Bible is all about.
I believe that's what it's all about.
(18:41):
It's about us moving from beingcreatures of God to being sons of God.
That's very important when one startstrying to understand books like revelation
and eschatology and end times is, is whatwe're moving towards or being sons of God.
Let's see something else.
Here we are.
(19:03):
He talks about the steps of goingfrom being a creature to being a son.
It is voluntary.
It's something that we do pursue andallow and also receive it, but we do have
that choice and a lot of people get maybeconfused about that, but it is a choice,
and so it's a journey that we go on.
(19:25):
That's what we talk about here on Seek Go.
Great.
This is the journey that we go on.
And one of the things CS Lewissays, he says, I have called Christ
the first instance of a new man.
He's the first.
He is the new man.
And then one of the things I wanna do,this is the paragraph that when I read
(19:46):
this, it just exploded in my mind.
I'm going, that's it.
That's it.
That's it.
That's what I desire to be.
So I'm gonna read a little bit,my apologies, but this is from
almost the end of the book.
And c. S Lewis says already,the new men are dotted here
(20:07):
and there all over the earth.
Some, as I have admitted, are still hardlyrecognizable, but others can be recognized
every now and then one meets them.
Their very voices and facesare different from ours.
Stronger, quieter, happier, more radiant.
They begin where most of us leaveoff, they are, I say recognizable,
(20:29):
but you must know what to look for.
They will not be very like the ideaof religious people, which you have
formed from your general reading.
They do not draw attention to themselves.
They tend to think that you are beingkind to them when they are really.
Being kind to you.
They love you more than othermen do, but they need you less.
(20:54):
They will usually seemto have a lot of time.
You will wonder where it comes fromwhen you have recognized one of them.
You will recognize thenext one much more easily.
Anyway, to put it at the verylowest, it must be great, great fun.
And here's what CS Lewis says about it.
(21:17):
And this is really, I guess, theexclamation point on the journey.
He said it is something like that withChrist and us, the more we get what
we now call ourselves out of the way.
And let him take us over.
The more truly ourselves we becomeIn that sense, our real selves
(21:42):
are all waiting for us in him.
When we hear that term inChrist, that's what it is.
So it's a real giving up of self.
And you know that there's a word that wehear a lot, and that word is authentic.
It's real.
And sometimes we don't knowexactly what that means.
(22:03):
That's what CS Lewis I think is capturingin this new man is being authentic.
So the reason that I tied thatin with Bono is that I don't
think we have a lot of examples.
Bono was a great example and so that'sthe reason that I wanted to talk about.
Bono on this.
You know, there, thereare some other examples.
(22:24):
I may get to them in just a moment,but, uh, you just know it some,
here's some descriptions that I'vetaken to kind of help me with it.
The new man is calm.
Is present.
Peaceful.
They're secure in their identity,comfortable in their own skin.
They're not reactive.
(22:44):
They seem to be more proactive.
Nothing seems to shock or surprise them.
They're not addicted to performance.
I told you that I was maybe stillare a little bit working on that.
They're comfortable in their own skin.
They're just at peace and relaxed.
You don't feel hurried.
They don't feel distracted.
(23:05):
You know, we're a very distracted worldin society right now, but think, like
I said, bono, if you go listen to thatJoe Rogan episode, he's just relaxed.
Bono, one of the biggest rockstars I think in the world.
Most people know who he is.
It is just sitting there withJoe Rogan having conversation
telling him, you know what?
(23:26):
you've got a good touch, a goodfeel for what's going on in society.
I wanted to come talk to you.
He's telling Joe Rogan thatBono is telling him that.
So anyway, Bono's a great example.
Another great example that seems to bethis way is Fred Rogers, Mr. Rogers.
He was cool and peaceful and relaxedand, You know, just invited people in.
(23:49):
You just kinda wanted to be around him.
Didn't get bogged downwith a lot of junky stuff.
Just kinda seemed to rise above it.
A few others that sortof seemed that way to me.
Dallas Willard, Eugene Peterson, you know,they lived quiet, powerful, anchored.
Lives and I'm sure there are othersand maybe, maybe it's tough to look
(24:12):
at examples like this and probablya lot of people that we don't even
know who they are, are this way.
And I think that that is, I think it'sgood to just have examples like that.
Alright, so if we talk about the newman, we need to contrast the old man.
And I can do this becauseI. Believe I was that way.
(24:38):
Always anxious.
Very performative caught in comparisonand in the world we're in today
with social media, the comparisonthing can just eat away at you.
It can just knowledge your soul.
Always striving for approval,always trying to impress,
and that is the old man now.
(25:00):
Why does this matter?
For what we're talking about withthis series, many will read scripture.
Or the Bible or they'll go to church orthey'll do their spiritual stuff like
it's a to-do list or a self-help guide, orthey're, they will try to twist scriptures
(25:25):
to fit their beliefs and dogmas guilty.
Guilty, guilty.
I have done that.
I have taken scripture and taught onit and shared information and, and,
and I've known that maybe I didn't havea full grasp of the biblical story.
(25:47):
Well, only in the last few years, haveI. Come to grasp the biblical story more.
The Bible is about a transformedidentity living from who we are in
Christ, not toward it, not seekingit, not looking to get to that.
And this shift made me realizehow off track my reading had been.
(26:11):
How what I was trying to do was.
Find something that would fitwith how I was living, not change
the way I was living to makeit fit the biblical narrative.
And it just really set thefoundation for everything else.
Now, the thing that I don't want to do,but I'm about to do it, so I'm letting
(26:32):
you warn, I'm warning you right upfront, is I don't want to get in the
mode of just plucking out scriptures.
I see that happen so much.
I don't wanna do that, but.
It.
There are some scriptures that I'mgonna use to kinda hammer home.
I guess what we're talking about here,second Corinthians five 17, if anyone
(26:53):
is in Christ, he is a new creationand that is what we are moving towards
a new creation, both individuallyand I believe as a society and as
a culture and as a family of God.
Romans 12, two be trans.
Formed by the renewing of your mind.
(27:15):
And then John 15, five, abidein me apart from me talking
about Christ apart from me.
You can do.
Nothing.
And so that's where, that's thejourney we're walking on, and I
wanted to kind of set the stage forwhat CS Lewis called the New Man.
(27:38):
The example that I saw in Bono.
I. As what we are maybe moving towards.
Not that we're trying to put Bono upwith Christ or see us Lewis with Christ,
but they just provide us examples.
So, and listen, here's the deal.
If we don't know who we are.
The Bible will always feellike pressure, not peace.
(28:01):
And in fact, a lot of people can get alluncomfortable if they're in a religious
setting where they're trying to establishall these rules and regulations law,
and they could use these scriptures.
It's easy to do and createpressure, not peace.
This Bible, I'm puttingmy hand on it right here.
(28:23):
It should.
Bring peace if we understandwhat that story is.
And then next time, in the next episode,what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna share
why after decades, literally decadesof being in church and studying,
going to Bible school for a few years.
(28:45):
I still didn't understand the Biblestory, and here's what I know from
interacting with a lot of people,churches, bible school, things like
that, they don't understand it either.
And I'm not trying to be critical.
I'm not trying to judge or condemn.
I just know that was my journey.
And I know from interacting withpeople, it's their journey too.
And so I am gonna walk through how Ibegan unlearning so I could relearn what.
(29:13):
Was true.
So, listen, next time get ready because,we're gonna get into more of, you
know, how to truly, truly understandwhat the story of the Bible really is.
We'll see you next weekon Seek, go Create.
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