June 17, 2025 • 53 mins
Ever watched a show where someone slowly steals your entire identity? That's exactly what happens in "Karma Chameleon," the third episode of Wonderfalls we're tackling this week – and quite possibly the most problematic episode of the series.
When Jaye encounters Bianca (or "Binky"), a young woman with a stutter who appears to be a runaway, she feels compelled to help after a talking chameleon figurine instructs her to "get her words out." What follows is a disturbing Single White Female scenario where Bianca systematically copies Jaye's appearance, mannerisms, and even pursues her crush, bartender Eric. Meanwhile, a subplot involving Jaye's mother's book dust jacket reveals how insignificant Jaye feels in her family of high achievers, where she merits only five words (one being a digit) in her mother's author bio.
Viewing this 2004 episode through a 2025 lens exposes numerous issues – from the insensitive portrayal of Bianca's stutter played for laughs, to the show's confused generational commentary (misidentifying Jaye as "Gen Y" when she's technically Gen X), to the glaring lack of diversity throughout. We unpack all these elements while acknowledging the episode's one redeeming quality: Jaye's recognition that she's a "work in progress," giving her character more depth than simply being labeled a slacker.
Join us as we analyze early 2000s technology (remember pagers?), critique the heavy-handed storytelling, and debate whether this episode is worth watching at all. Despite our harsh criticism, we remain committed to exploring the entire series to determine if Wonderfalls truly deserved its premature cancellation. Subscribe now and follow us on Instagram @SeekingSeasonTwo to continue this journey through TV's forgotten gems!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrew (00:09):
Welcome again to another episode.
Episode three is the magicnumber.
Episode three of Seeking,season Two.
We are your hosts, andrew andCatherine and Catherine and
Catherine.
Yes, we got canceled, but aftermore than a few seasons, us as
(00:36):
a relationship.
Catherine (00:36):
Our relationship got canceled.
Andrew (00:37):
Our relationship got canceled.
Catherine (00:39):
After 18 years of marriage, 22 years together, yes
, and yet here we are.
Andrew (00:46):
And yet here we are.
And yet here we are, podcast.
Here we are, face to face acouple of silver spoons bingo.
Catherine (00:54):
Did you think I wouldn't know that?
Andrew (00:55):
I know you I know you'd know that.
That's why I was waiting for it.
I knew I knew you'd nail thatline.
So welcome back to seekingseason two, where we analyze TV
shows that received only aseason or less than a season in
the case of Wonderfalls, only aseason and we will debate
whether or not they deserved aseason 2 or not.
(01:17):
So far the jury's out.
I think on Wonderfalls, I thinkwe're probably about 50.
After two episodes in, we'relike 50-50,.
I think.
On Wonderfalls, I think we'reprobably about 50.
After two episodes in, we'relike 50-50,.
I think at this point I'm 66-33.
66-33.
Ooh, nice.
In which direction?
Catherine (01:36):
I liked the first two episodes.
I did not like this one at all.
Andrew (01:40):
Yeah, this one was a bit .
I was saying before thisepisode we were 50-50.
Catherine (01:45):
Yes, before this episode.
Oh no, before this episode.
I would have said yes, youwould have said yes.
Andrew (01:50):
Yeah, it deserves a season two Okay.
Catherine (01:51):
I liked the first couple episodes quite a bit.
I think there are some issueswith the writing, but I think
that's a lot of shows very earlyon.
Andrew (01:58):
Right, right right.
Catherine (01:59):
So I can overlook that.
I can overlook that I.
Andrew (02:06):
I agree with you there um, I mean, I think they're at a
point where they haven't foundtheir footing yet, right?
So let's see if they find theirfooting in this episode episode
number three, yeah, which Ibelieve was episode aired as
episode number three.
I believe that's correct.
They flip-flop two and four.
Uh, episode three karma,chameleon, karma, karma, karma,
karma, karma.
So, first of all, my firstissue.
Catherine (02:26):
Yes.
Andrew (02:29):
I know it's a play on the song, yeah, but here's the
thing.
What does karma have to do withthis episode?
Catherine (02:36):
Yeah, nothing, nothing.
Andrew (02:37):
Just because it's a chameleon that talks to her,
we've got to call it KarmaChameleon.
Catherine (02:48):
So right off the bat I was like, okay, this is so.
Yes, are these all song lyrics?
Maybe not.
I was trying to see if therewas a a running.
Yeah, like pink Flamingo was a,a song by Dave McCartney and
the pink flamingos 1996.
(03:09):
I'm just trying to see ifthere's like cause a lot of
shows lion.
Andrew (03:13):
Was there a song called why?
If there, was a song called waxlion.
Catherine (03:17):
I will eat your hat.
Andrew (03:19):
I will eat, and my hat's right next to me.
Catherine (03:22):
Oh yeah, look at that , there's a hat.
Oh, look at that, there's a hat.
Oh, look a hat.
Wax Lion is a noisy rock bandbased in Brooklyn, new York.
Let's see when were theyfounded?
Yeah, I don't think Wax Lion isa song.
Okay, so maybe none of it makesany sense.
Andrew (03:45):
So we were talking about whether the episode titles have
meaning, so what?
Catherine (03:47):
we're finding out is they don't, they don't know,
they have no meaning they areliterally just named after
whatever is talking to her inthe episode and they had to call
it karma cameo.
I just I know why couldn't youjust be like I don't know,
talking chameleon?
Andrew (04:00):
rainbow chameleon, like I know exactly.
Catherine (04:02):
Yeah, like anything exactly chameleon cam literally
could have just called itchameleon, rainbow chameleon,
like I know Exactly.
Yeah, like anything.
Exactly, chameleon, youliterally could have just called
it chameleon, exactly.
Andrew (04:09):
I don't know.
They thought they were clever.
Well, here's the well.
Okay, Now, speaking of clevercause, this didn't occur to me
until right this very moment.
Excellent Speaking ofchameleons.
Catherine (04:19):
Yes.
Andrew (04:19):
Bianca.
Oh duh, oh, bianca is thechameleon.
Catherine (04:25):
But it still has nothing to do with karma.
Andrew (04:28):
It has nothing to do.
Fuck, I don't know why they putkarma in it.
It's so annoying.
Anyway, I feel like it was justfor the sake of calling it
karma chameleon, to be clever.
It has nothing to do with theepisode, except for, obviously,
the talking chameleon.
Catherine (04:43):
Right.
Andrew (04:44):
AKA Bianca the chameleon Single white female so let's
get into some of the detailsfirst.
So kind of the plot line is Jayis starting to mentor a young
runaway.
Catherine (04:59):
Yep.
Andrew (05:01):
Who appears to be a young runaway with a stutter Yep
Named Bianca G, gets her a jobat Wonder Falls and Bianca, so
kindly quote unquote repays herkindness by taking over her life
.
A la single white femalecharming the Tyler family,
pursuing Jay's crush, eric thebartender.
(05:23):
Jay is motivated to fight forher life and help bianca get her
own.
Catherine (05:30):
yeah, fascinating is it, though?
Andrew (05:33):
it is this one was written by tim muneer.
Love tim muneer.
Do you know?
Catherine (05:38):
are you being serious or of course I know who Tim
Minear is.
Okay, they got the mustard out,they got the mustard.
Andrew (05:48):
Okay, I know what you're talking about, but please.
Catherine (05:51):
Tim Minear was a writer on Buffy the Vampire
Slayer and later, I believe,showrunner for Angel.
Andrew (05:59):
He was an executive producer.
Catherine (06:00):
Executive producer On Angel and Firefly yes, but Tim
Minear is very much in theBuffyverse, which is very much
my area.
Andrew (06:07):
Yes, so explain the whole singing.
Catherine (06:15):
Oh, once more with feeling.
Tim Minear was in the episodeonce more with feeling and has a
lovely voice.
It's a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the musical episode, yes, all
songs written by Joss Whedon,who is a problematic and
terrible man.
So we just pretend he doesn'texist anymore.
Andrew (06:30):
That's right, but we celebrate his work but not the
man.
Catherine (06:33):
I will never not love Buffy, the Vampire Slayer Right
Having a much, much harder timewith JK Rowling right now.
Ooh.
Oof yikes, yeah, 10 foot polenot not far enough I'm.
I will still buy actually buffybranded things, even though the
money royalties probably go tohim, probably.
(06:54):
I will only buy buffy.
I will only buy harry potterstuff from independent artists
going forward.
Yeah, can't support her.
She's a horrible person.
Yeah anyway, did.
Andrew (07:04):
You also know that tim menier was also an executive
story editor.
Can't support her.
She's a horrible person.
Catherine (07:08):
Yeah, anyway, did you also know that.
Andrew (07:14):
Tim Minear was also an executive story editor on the
X-Files Season 5?
I did not know that, yeah.
Catherine (07:19):
And also has quite a few writing credits on Angel and
Firefly.
Yeah, he's very prolific anddefinitely was very in that
whole Joss whedon world.
Uh, in the late 90s, early2000s yes, this was also
directed by marita.
Andrew (07:32):
I'm gonna butcher her last name grabyak, sure, sure,
again prolific director I I was.
I was looking at her credits inimdb like just obviously a
relationship with joss whedonhere too.
All over the place.
Catherine (07:45):
Angel Buffy, firefly Dollhouse.
Andrew (07:47):
Yes.
Catherine (07:49):
Yeah, that's all Joss shows.
Andrew (07:52):
And here again is Dawson's Creek.
Catherine (07:53):
I don't want to wait.
Andrew (07:55):
Yes, sorry, damn it.
Now I've got to pay for that.
Catherine (07:59):
I don't think I used enough of it.
Oh sweet.
Andrew (08:07):
I could keep going.
She also directed a bunch ofepisodes of 9-1-1.
Catherine (08:11):
I have never watched that show.
I see ads for it constantly.
Andrew (08:14):
I guess there's spinoffs too, none of which I have seen.
Oh yeah.
Catherine (08:18):
All of these procedurals do so well and I'm
not interested in any of them.
I mean, is Will Trenttechnically a procedural?
Because I do love that show.
Andrew (08:28):
Love me, some Will Trent , what a good show.
Catherine (08:30):
Did you watch the season yet, though it's so good?
I watched the first coupleepisodes.
It's a good season.
Andrew (08:37):
Excellent, there's so much TV I've got to catch up on
Because we were watchingSeverance but I haven't Did you
watch the end of it yet.
No.
Catherine (08:45):
Have you yeah.
Andrew (08:47):
Oh, you gave up on our co-watching.
Catherine (08:49):
Well, so did you, didn't you?
No, oh, I thought you meant youand Laura were watching
Severance.
No, we can go back to it.
Andrew (08:57):
No, no, no, that's all right.
Catherine (08:58):
What happened was Rob was way ahead and I was afraid
he was going to ruin it for meif.
I didn't watch through, so Iwatched it.
Andrew (09:07):
I've only watched the first episode, or the first or
second episode.
Catherine (09:10):
It's a weird season and I had a lot of questions at
the last episode.
So when you get there, let meknow, because I got a lot to
talk about.
Andrew (09:16):
Alright, I will definitely watch that.
Catherine (09:18):
I always have a lot to talk about.
Andrew (09:20):
That's why we have a podcast, that's why you're the
co-host of the podcast.
Catherine (09:24):
Because I have a lot to talk about.
I got a lot of opinions.
I got a lot of problems withyou people.
Now for the airing of thegrievances.
I got a lot of problems with youpeople.
Andrew (09:32):
You're going to hear about it.
Exactly, you've got a lot ofproblems with this episode.
Catherine (09:40):
I do, and we're going to say up front Andrew is much
better versed in this episodebecause I hated it and I only
watched it once.
Andrew (09:47):
Yeah, I've got a lot of personal feelings about this
episode.
Yeah, so let's dive into it.
So let's go through.
Let's go further into the mainplot.
Yeah Again, karma Chameleon Jayencounters Bianca AKA binky.
(10:07):
God yeah, stupid nickname,awful nickname.
Catherine (10:10):
Stupid.
No one would choose that.
Andrew (10:13):
If you're a Bianca out there that chose the nickname
binky, we're.
Catherine (10:17):
I'm not sorry, that's a bad nickname.
Andrew (10:19):
Bad nickname.
Catherine (10:20):
Yeah.
Andrew (10:21):
You got to tell the baby is ugly, that's an ugly baby.
Catherine (10:24):
That baby is breathtaking exactly I hate.
So again, let's just go rightinto what worked and what didn't
work, because, okay, the wholething about the stutter I mean
oh, awful awful choice of like aplot point like that, that
she's got a stutter like well,and they and this is something
(10:45):
to overcome and they play thestutter for comedy, which is
just oh, oh, I know it's a god,yeah again, and, and this keeps
coming up this is a 2025perspective on something that
was more appropriate, I guess,or acceptable in the early 2000s
(11:09):
, it passed in 2004.
Andrew (11:10):
Awful, awful, awful, awful.
Yeah, so she's got the stutter,which is more pronounced when
she is stressed, but at least,and again, at least Mahondra
points it out at some point.
Catherine (11:24):
Yeah.
Andrew (11:24):
Because when Bianca's going and then then Jay makes
fun of her and is like buh, buh,buh, bye, yeah.
Then like at least Mahandracalls her out and was like yo,
that was not cool, yeah, so atleast, and and Mahandra's
character, I think, is very muchthe voice of reason, though we
talked about it in the lastepisode where she kind of is the
(11:49):
mirror to Jay, like you know,to Jay.
Catherine (11:51):
Jay holds that mirror up of being vengeful and
Mahondra sees herself in it andis like, oh, don't like that.
I think Mahondra, is she just aserver at the restaurant, I
believe so.
But she's still somehow.
Don't denigrate servers.
Andrew (12:10):
No, I just meant is she the manager?
Catherine (12:12):
Because I kind of thought she might be the manager
.
Because my whole point is,mahondra is much more mature
than Jay Very much, and muchmore like voice of reason-y than
Jay yes agreed.
So that was really all I wasgetting at with.
That is that Mahondraconstantly kind of stands up as
the more mature of the two,despite being the same age and
(12:33):
kind of having similarexperiences, except that Jay
went to a freaking Ivy Leaguecollege and learned nothing.
Andrew (12:38):
Right, well, I don't know.
I mean she did write.
I mean, in this episode she didwrite a 5,000-word article
about and don't get me startedAgain this episode was very
problematic.
It really is.
It's awful, so let's talk moreabout the plot and then let's
(12:59):
dive into it.
So again, it was in the bar.
Bianca steals Jay's wallet,right, and we're starting to get
glimpses of Bianca spying onJay.
Bianca returns the wallet thisis where we see the chameleon,
(13:24):
because Jay realizes she'shaving a, that Bianca stutters.
She hears the chameleon say gether words out.
And she goes oh, her words.
So that's when it, that's whenit clicks that this is the
person that she's supposed toright, help, um, and I don't
know if, like, it's not about,it's weird, because I don't know
if she thinks she's trying tolike, cure her stutter or or
(13:46):
what she's trying to do.
But, um, then then at thispoint, um, you see the slow
progression of Bianca becomingJay, right the hair.
Catherine (14:00):
Yeah.
Andrew (14:01):
The vest.
Yeah, the slacker kind ofdisaffected attitude.
Yeah, all that.
She's starting to mimic herbehavior, her behavior starting
to kind of.
Then she starts because she andat one point she and Jay are
talking about Eric the bartenderand Jay mentions that she
(14:22):
thinks that he's cute, and sonow Bianca is kind of weaseling
her way in on the bartender.
It's very weird, like for who'ssupposed to be an investigative
reporter.
Catherine (14:37):
Yeah, she gets very weird I also really I feel like
they like, they haveheavy-handedly like well, I did
that.
I was just gonna say I feel likethey went too hard on a lot of
it.
Like her father comes in andgives Bianca a kiss on the cheek
, thinking she's like, come on,yeah, you could have put, you
(15:00):
know, five identical people nextto me and I'm pretty sure my
father could have picked me outof that lineup Like yeah, it
just again.
Oh, it's supposed to be funny,I get it.
And I certainly have a sense ofhumor.
Um, I just didn't find thatfunny no I don't know and maybe
that's that's me empathizingwith jay, right like right how
horrifying it would be to seeyour father come in and think
somebody else was you right.
(15:21):
Um, and maybe that's the point,but I just thought it was.
Again, you said heavy-handedand I think that's the perfect
phrase for it yeah, so here.
Andrew (15:31):
Here's the thing, though , because I think it's all so.
So the episode kicks off whenthe father so we learn really in
this episode that the mother isan author, apparently a very
prolific.
This is what her sixth book, orsomething, and she's she writes
travel books.
Catherine (15:50):
That woman doesn't look like she's set foot outside
a spa in 10 years.
Yeah, it's really weird.
Um, and this goes back to mypoint from the last episode of,
I don't think they really builtout most of the characters
beyond yeah jay, maybe sharonright, the dad is starting to
have a personality, right, andnow the mom is a travel writer
(16:11):
apparently.
Andrew (16:11):
so so weird.
But it starts out the father'sreading the blurb on the dust
jacket of the book.
Catherine (16:20):
Which I guess the blurb is kind of the subplot.
Right, the blurb is the subplot.
Andrew (16:24):
So it talks about.
He is a well-known localphysician.
The daughter is a successfulimmigration attorney.
Yep, and again we get intosomething else problematic.
He is the.
The son, aaron, is the firstnon-asian winner of the um.
What's the scholarship?
Catherine (16:46):
scholarship for religious studies?
Andrew (16:48):
yes, he's the first non-asian winner of like, so the
youngest non-asian winneryoungest non-asian winner, the
youngest non-Asian winnerYoungest non-Asian winner of the
Fulton Scholarship.
It's just again so problematic.
Catherine (17:01):
Do Asian people even exist in this show?
Andrew (17:06):
Because this is another point that you wanted to bring
up God.
Where do we begin?
There's so many problems.
Yeah, so let's get to, let's,let's beat one problem dead
horse at a time um I mean, it'sthe thing that everybody talks
about with friends, right?
Catherine (17:20):
yes, everyone's white everyone's white, exactly,
except you got mahondra yes, andI mean that's on south park
where the black kid's name istoken.
Yes, yeah, there's a reason forthat, right, I know.
And I didn't want hondra is thetoken.
Yes, well, that's why I said itthe way I did, because I don't
want to be like she's the tokenblack person, but she is.
(17:41):
She's the token minority.
Right, this was very, veryconsistent with early 2000s,
yeah late 90s to early 2000syeah.
Andrew (17:52):
Late nineties to early 2000s yeah, Um lack of diversity
.
Catherine (17:55):
Um, like I'm even thinking about.
You know, buffy is my favoriteshow, but early seasons you
didn't have anybody Right, andeven later you get like Robin
wood and and a few people in,but and then finally, when you
move to angel, you get gun as amain character, but again it's
like they're the only one Right.
(18:17):
It's just a tough, yeah, andthen, yeah, it's just a tough
time period, I think, and notthat we don't still have those
problems in TV, because weabsolutely do, but at least
there's a little bit morerepresentation now than there
used to be, right.
Andrew (18:34):
So let's go so.
So draw all of this back to myoriginal point of when the
father says hello to Bianca asJay, yeah, and she's like hello
dad, yeah, she's creepy, yeah.
Well, here's the thing, though.
So what, I was tying it back toreading of the blurb, so it
reads off everybody is supersuccessful, except the five
(18:58):
words, and one is a digit of Jay, the daughter who is 24.
So even in the blurb she's veryinsignificant, kind of an
afterthought.
So I think a lot of thoselittle scenes aren't necessarily
(19:18):
meant to be humorous, but aremeant to hammer home the point
of the subplot that I almostfeel it's like the photograph in
Back to the Future where thefamily's disappearing, like
she's disappearing.
I feel like she feels like sheis slowly disappearing and not
(19:39):
out of existence, yeah, sothat's how I kind of see it,
because she hasn't, according toher, compared to her family,
she hasn't been super successful.
She works a retail job rightafter after going to brown, some
somehow got into brown as wesaid last episode to brown with
(20:02):
no extracurriculars, noextracurriculars.
That's how that works, amazingum, so I I feel like they kind
of they're just playing into thefact that she's disappearing
and is insignificant like she's.
She sees herself as beinginsignificant.
Um, and then, and then, themain plot of single white female
(20:24):
, bianca, becoming jay, I think,when, when she, when jay,
finally finds out that b Biancais an investigative reporter,
she suddenly feels, I think,significant because Bianca is
writing about her, even thoughit's about her not being
(20:46):
successful.
It's because she chooses not toRight.
She chooses to.
She's made that.
Chooses not to Right Like shechooses to.
She's made that choice.
Yeah.
Catherine (20:59):
Can we also discuss Bianca's an investigative
reporter at age 21?
, because she said she was afreshman when Jay was a senior.
Is that right?
Andrew (21:10):
Yeah, well, here's see, I think, I think she's coined
herself as an investigator.
Catherine (21:13):
Yeah, because like she seems to be working
independently.
Andrew (21:17):
Because I think she submitted a story idea to this
magazine and they said, yeah, gofor it.
Go for it Because she doesn't.
I mean because they don'taccept the letter until the end,
they don't accept the articleuntil the end.
So I think she's just coinedherself as an investigative
reporter.
I don't think that's.
I like that better, because at21, you're definitely still
(21:38):
fetching people's coffee at thatpoint Exactly.
So that's a lot of the mainplot to it is just this whole
single white female story ofBianca taking over Jay's life.
Catherine (21:54):
And we kind of talked about the subplot, which is
really just the blurb.
Andrew (21:58):
Really the blurb, Like I think they're.
They're very intertwined, yeah,but I think it's really Jay
finding herself understandingthat who she is in all in all
this, so um and also being okaywith the fact that she's a work
in progress right, which I don'tthink she's seen herself as
(22:20):
before right, you know, and so.
So, as I said, as we werediscussing this episode before
recording yeah, I've got a lotof opinions on this because, no,
because I see, I see I see alot of myself in in this episode
, okay, so so first of all,calling her gen y is wrong yeah,
well, I mean two things.
(22:42):
Yes, go ahead you, no, no you.
You want to talk about twothings hit me as you pointed out
, she'd be gen x.
She would be jay, because thisis 2004, she's 24, so she would
have been born 1980, so she'stail end of gen x.
But she's gen x she would be,because this is 2004, she's 24,
so she would have been born 1980.
Catherine (22:54):
So she's tail end of gen x, but she's gen x right,
she's on the cusp of gen x andand then I just thought it was
funny to hear anybody called geny anymore, because gen y is
millennials, right.
So it was kind of jarring forme, right.
I was like, oh, gen y, oh yeah,that was a thing, wasn't it
exactly?
Andrew (23:16):
so it was very interesting because they talk
about the disaffected 20somethings.
And I was saying this earlierif we're talking about 20
somethings, if Jay is on thecusp at 24, so you've got half
of the 20 somethings who aretruly Gen X.
So I really don't feel like Ireally don't feel like it was
(23:38):
that the millennials are.
Again, we can go into all theanalysis of what each generation
is like, but I don't feel likethe millennials are the
disaffected youth.
I think that's really Gen X.
I think they really missed themark on what generation they
were talking about.
I think they wanted to talkabout Gen Y.
Yeah, I think they had thisgreat idea let's talk about Gen
(24:00):
Y Right, and then how current,exactly.
Let's be hip, let's be current.
And then they totally justmissed the whole, not even the
bullseye, they didn't even hitanywhere on the target.
They just missed this entirely.
They just hit a squirrel in thetree or something, or the cat.
Catherine (24:24):
I was going to say is that what squirrels sound like?
Andrew (24:25):
No, I haven't talked to a squirrel in a long time, okay,
so, anyway, talk talked to asquirrel.
Catherine (24:42):
Oh god, it's just we mentioned.
I know we mentioned in the lastepisode, but just so everyone's
clear, we're both still reallyfreaking tired yeah, we're still
.
Andrew (24:47):
This is, we're recording two episodes on the same day
and we are still exhausted westarted out tired and now we're
punch drunk.
We're loopy, yeah I mean we, wewent and got started.
Well, I mean you got.
Catherine (24:59):
You got your summer berry lemonade and there's some
caffeine in the refreshers isthere some caffeine?
Andrew (25:04):
yeah, that's good.
Catherine (25:06):
Not enough probably, but I did down an entire diet
mountain dew on the way here sorock on.
Andrew (25:11):
I love that for you, thank you and I've got my venti
latte with four.
Catherine (25:18):
He said four, he held up three fingers.
That's how today is going.
Andrew (25:24):
That's exactly how that is a perfect, perfect wrap up of
the day.
Catherine (25:30):
My latte was four shots, to quote my favorite,
very tertiary character on 90day, fiance Yike Yike.
Andrew (25:39):
Exactly, exactly, or, as drunk Ben Affleck would say,
exactly, exactly, exactly.
So, anyway, um, rough, rough,rough episode all around the
plot, the subplot.
Yeah, so let's talk about rough, rough episode all around the
plot, the subplot.
Yeah, so let's talk about againwe, we, we mentioned it.
The portrayal of the stutterportrayal, the stutter, awful,
(26:02):
awful, um, just just the mind on.
I mean it was painful.
It was very painful.
It was hard to watch.
Catherine (26:09):
It was hard to watch because you feel for a person
who has a stutter to begin with.
Because it is hard for watchbecause you feel for a person
who has a stutter to begin withbecause it is hard for them to
get their words out, sure, butthen when it's being turned into
a joke and everybody'sessentially making fun of her
right, awful, awful, awful,awful I agree.
Andrew (26:25):
So the stutter was using that as a as a plot point.
Terrible overall the show ingeneral.
Lack of diversity I mean again,one person of color in the
entire cast.
I mean it was again late 90s,early 2000s.
(26:47):
This was typical of these showsIn 2025, we know that, we
recognize that.
So it's just.
This is just another one ofthose shows that certainly lack
diversity.
I think the writing about Gen Ywas just sloppy.
Like I said, I think theywanted to talk about Gen Y
(27:08):
because it was the thing to talkabout at the time, Because
we're just, it was aninteresting time in 2004,
because you're post Y2K, post9-11, which is still fresh in
people's minds a few years out.
So I feel like Gen Y was justthe thing to talk about.
(27:31):
Because, again, they weren'teven called millennials at the
time, so they coined the termGen Y.
Hey, let's like.
Gen Y was just like the thingto talk about.
Cause again, they weren't evencalled millennials at the time,
Right so you know.
They coined the term Gen Y.
Hey, let's talk about Gen Y,Gen.
Catherine (27:38):
Y is the thing to talk about, the same way that,
like millennials and Gen Z arethe thing to talk about now.
Andrew (27:44):
Right.
Catherine (27:45):
It's just every.
It's just whoever the youngpeople are.
Andrew (27:58):
Right are right, they want, they want to be hip, they
want to be cool, um, and it'sjust, it doesn't, it doesn't
land, it doesn't land, well, noat all, um, so that's, that's.
That's frustrating.
Now I know.
So this I I want to say thisepisode didn't work at all I
would agree I mean, I think Ithink they, I think they nailed
it at the end.
Catherine (28:19):
I think they nailed the subplot, yeah I mean I think
I would agree, and I think thatcame out of the main plot.
Andrew (28:25):
Yeah, um, it just wasn't done well seeing that she's a
work in progress really I thinkgives her more depth depth than
her just being a slacker, yeah.
Catherine (28:37):
I still think they're trying to figure out who the
heck the mom's character is Iagree.
She's sitting there soempathetic toward Bianca no,
empathy towards her own childbut she's also supposed to be
this like caring mother and wife, but I don't get that at all
from her.
Andrew (28:57):
Oh, so let's talk about this though as well.
So, because you mentioned inthe last episode that you want
to talk about in this episode,the father, the development of
the father character, yeah.
Being close, you know, gettingbeing a more sympathetic
character toward Jay yeah,because all sorts of things.
I remember the scene when Jayand Bianca are fighting over the
(29:17):
plate cleaning up after pizzanight and Jay is like I always
clean up and Sharon's like younever come to pizza night but
then like the plate shatterscause they both let go of the
plate shatters and the father'slike it's okay, he's, like
you've lost, you just lost yourjob, like he's, he's definitely
empathy yes, he's definitelyempathetic toward, toward her
situation.
(29:37):
Um, I mean, he's the one thatfeels guilty about her not
having enough words in the blurbright, so he's the one that I I
think.
I think he's the one thatcoordinated getting her a total
of 15 words.
Well, and it's in the blurb.
Catherine (29:53):
And again that goes back to like, what is up with
this mother?
Like, are we supposed to seeher as, like she has, she has no
redeeming value right she, shethinks sharon and aaron, again
sharon and aaron.
Um, she thinks sharon and aaronare so wonderful because
(30:14):
they're successful.
But, like you, have three kids.
Andrew (30:17):
They've lived longer.
They've lived longer than you.
Catherine (30:21):
So I mean literally.
All you can say is Jay, adaughter, is 24.
Jay, a Brown graduatePhilosophy.
Andrew (30:29):
Brown, graduate in philosophy.
Catherine (30:31):
Lives in Niagara Falls Right Like you don't even
have to get into the whole thing.
That happens at the end, whereshe talks about that.
No, that's me, Catherine.
A senior marketing managerlives in New Jersey with her
four cats.
Lovely, Um, I mean, it's justso.
It's so reductive.
(30:51):
There's plenty you could sayabout Jay.
She's three years out of college.
That is still a relevant timeto talk about the fact that she
went to an ivy right like thatis not an unsuccessful person,
that is a person figuring it out, right.
I mean, when I graduated fromcollege, I worked in an
insurance brokerage.
It surely was not what I wantedto do with my life, right, but
you're figuring it out.
(31:12):
I bounced from job to job, umoffice job to office job, but
just trying to figure out whereI fit for five years after
college, right Before I finallystarted to actually like build
my career Right, and I don'tthink anybody would have looked
at me and been like Catherine isunsuccessful because she
doesn't know exactly what shewants to do with her life right
(31:34):
now.
So it's just so dismissive.
And am I supposed to like themother Because I hate her?
She is not.
They give her moments like tinylittle moments.
Andrew (31:49):
She's not been a likable character up until this point.
Catherine (31:52):
They give her moments of humanity.
Yeah, they don't give her apersonality.
No, I hate it.
I don't like it.
Andrew (32:01):
I agree, so let me talk about I've got some.
I know you don't have anyfavorite moments.
Catherine (32:07):
Oh, I do have one.
Andrew (32:09):
I do have one Hit me.
Catherine (32:12):
Bianca is testing the little nerf shooter and shoots
the mouth breather in the eye.
I can't stand the mouthbreather it works.
Andrew (32:23):
Because a woman's returning a toy like a nerf gun.
Catherine (32:26):
Yeah, say it doesn't work.
Andrew (32:28):
This one doesn't work she's like, and I want to test
the other one before I take it,so I know it works.
Catherine (32:33):
And she shoots it and hits the mouth breather right
in the eye Right in the eye,detached retina, I think, didn't
they say yes?
Yeah, I shouldn't find it funny, but I know I did, of course.
(32:57):
And one other thing I wanted topoint out, not that it was a
favorite moment, but that it wasinteresting in the grand scheme
of the episode.
There was one scene after Jaygets fired where they cut to
Wonderfalls and Bianca looks somuch like her that I thought it
was Jay.
I was like, oh my God, jay gother job back.
And then I realized so I mean,they did a very effective job at
casting someone who lookedenough like the actress to get
away with the single whitefemale, right.
(33:17):
But you know, if I had likedthe whole episode better, I
might have been like, oh,favorite moment, like they
fooled me, ha ha, ha, ha, right.
Andrew (33:27):
So so we talked about the youngest non-Asian winner of
the Fulton scholarship.
However, I love later on, Jaymakes the comment he still lives
at home and is considered to bemore successful than me, Right,
because?
Catherine (33:41):
he's in the PhD program.
Andrew (33:43):
He's in his doctoral program.
He still lives at home.
Catherine (33:46):
If she had gone back to school, maybe she would be
perceived the same way.
It's just that they treat herlike she has no future just
because she's working in a shopright now.
But that's right now.
Andrew (33:59):
Exactly.
Catherine (34:00):
I feel like now I'm in therapy, when he constantly
says to me no, that is right now, like that's what's happening
now.
That's not your whole future.
You have no idea what's goingto happen in your future.
Andrew (34:08):
Exactly.
Catherine (34:09):
You could plan everything perfectly.
Our brother can go and get hisPhD and do nothing with it.
Andrew (34:15):
Right, exactly Another favorite line of mine.
I don't know what it was, justit's like a throwaway line, yeah
, but she's talking about Jay,is talking about the blurb.
It's right in the opening sceneand she's like I've only got
five words and one of them is adigit.
And the father goes don't parsethe blurb.
Yeah, which I, just I just it'slike something.
(34:36):
And now I want to say don'tparse the blurb.
Catherine (34:38):
Yeah, I know it is.
That's some nice wordplay.
Andrew (34:40):
It's really good.
And then and then I talkedabout this prior to our
recording when they're sittingat the table and they the
dinner's ending at all there?
Now see, because some of thempull out cell phones but like a
beeper goes off.
Catherine (34:53):
Yep.
Andrew (34:54):
A beep, I'm going to say a beeper.
Like you, people know what abeeper is, so some of you know.
Some of you still may know whata beeper is, but it's a
precursor to cell phones, I meanin 2004,.
Catherine (35:10):
did that many people actually have beepers?
Andrew (35:11):
Because I don't think I knew anyone with a pager.
Well, here's the thing becausehe's a doctor, so a doctor would
have a pager.
Catherine (35:14):
That makes sense A doctor might still have a pager.
Andrew (35:16):
A doctor still might have a pager in 2004.
Catherine (35:18):
Although, probably just a cell phone now.
Andrew (35:21):
Yeah, it would definitely be a cell phone now,
but they all pull out theirdevices, right, because the
mother pulls out that weirdphone.
Did you notice her phone phone?
Oh, no, I didn't.
Was it?
Uh, was it one of those umsidekicks?
No, no, no, it's.
It's circular at the top andlike spins, oh weird, open.
(35:41):
I, I can't even remember thatphone.
You're gonna, you're gonna,google it.
Catherine (35:45):
I totally am, because I don't know, I missed that
because, it was it was.
Andrew (35:49):
it was like a phone that I don't recall ever seeing back
in those days.
I remember the sidekicks.
I remember like the Palmdevices, like I remember all
those.
I remember like the razors,like the flips and things like
that.
But this one, like I don'trecognize.
It was circular at the top andit like spun on that circle to
(36:14):
open up to reveal the keypad andthen the top I guess would have
been like the, the uh speakerfor the earphone, for the to
talk interesting.
Catherine (36:24):
Yeah, I'm not finding anything okay, hang on.
Andrew (36:28):
It was a motorola v70 came out in 2002 I'm pretty sure
is what it was.
Yep, that's the kind of phone,but it spun on that circular
part of the top.
Catherine (36:37):
I love the description in this article.
We've got a handset that wasbonkers even by Nokia standards
the world's first phone with acircular display.
The V70 was a phone bought forits design and design alone,
with a sideways flick, swingingthe front cover around to reveal
the keypad beneath.
There weren't many in the wild,but it would go on to inspire a
(37:02):
newer, luxury version in theaura.
Six years later, I'm looking tosee if that's in here.
Yeah, oh wow, that one's wildlooking.
Andrew (37:15):
Yeah, that's basically the phone mean I mean, that's
from 2008 2008 come out yeah,but it I think it was that v70
probably interesting motorolav70 that's a that's a deep cut
right, I know, I just like itwas the weirdest thing because I
was.
I was watching it and it's likeokay, pagers go off.
(37:36):
But then I saw her look at a.
I'm like that's not a pager.
Right, so like it really stoodout to me in this episode and
I'm like I've never seen thatphone before.
Catherine (37:46):
Is this also supposed to drive home again the fact
that Jay is so not connected?
because I know we talked in thelast episode about the fact that
she doesn't have a cell phone,and this just kind of reinforces
that Right.
Andrew (38:00):
And what they did, was they also reinforced how
successful they all were.
Because the father needed aride, because the mother had the
car, mother and father cametogether.
So the father had to get to thehospital, right?
So he's like I've got to get tothe hospital, right?
So he's like I've got to get tothe hospital.
The daughter, or aaron, saidI've got to do some dissertation
work yeah I think he was goingto the library.
(38:22):
He's like, I'll take you.
And then sharon said well, Iwas going to go to the gym.
I've got a busy day at courttomorrow, right?
And then the mother was like,because she's like doesn't she
have like a book tour orsomething?
Yeah, she's got.
I've got like an early day forabout the book or something.
Yeah, so they all.
It's like they all like reallyre-emphasized again, like
they're all super successful.
(38:42):
And jay was just like I'm justgonna stay here and get drunk
yeah so they, like they, reallyhammered home the again very the
episode was very heavy handedabout this whole.
Catherine (38:53):
Gen Y slacker the quote.
Gen Y slacker.
Andrew (38:58):
So that was.
That was another interestingfavorite moment of mine about
just the pagers.
Yeah, reliving the days ofpagers, did you ever?
Did you ever have a pager?
I never had a pager.
I never had a page.
I wanted a pager, cause I didso.
Catherine (39:09):
I graduated.
Andrew (39:10):
I graduated college in 1998.
Catherine (39:14):
Yes, and as soon as I graduated I bought a red Nokia
Right.
It had a little extendableantenna.
Andrew (39:21):
Oh, I remember those.
Catherine (39:22):
Yeah, like it was the classic, like when you think of
the classic Nokia.
That's what I had Interesting.
Yeah, so I never had a pager.
It is like an iconic Buffy linethough the apocalypse If the
apocalypse, why can't I sayapocalypse now?
It is, it is, it is, it is, itis, it is, it is, it is, it is,
it is, it is, it is, it is, itis, it is, it is, it is, it is
(39:48):
it is line.
Yes, she wants to go on afreaking date, yes, anyway.
So yeah, I like I feel likepagers were like an ongoing
thing, isn't thing in theseshows too, which is just funny.
Um, I agree.
Why did you want a pager?
Andrew (40:03):
I don't know, I was just .
I was a tech head yeah, I wasalways a tech head.
Catherine (40:07):
Yeah, um, like, because I got one of the first
like palm pilots I won a PalmPilot in a raffle when I was
working a couple years out ofschool.
Congratulations, thank you.
Andrew (40:17):
I remember my brother and I went to the electronics
show at Jacob Javits Yep.
I guess it must have been the90s, I would imagine, because
there was the.
Newton, the Apple Newton, that'sright.
But the Palm Pilot, it was usrobotics.
Yeah, it was the originalcompany that, because it wasn't
palm at the time, I think it wascalled the.
(40:39):
I don't know if it's called thepalm pilot or just the pilot.
It was the us robotics.
Um, was the company.
I remember seeing them likeshow, like displayed, for the
first time, yeah, as a pdapersonal digital assistant, that
was like that was like thefirst time they coined that PDA.
It was a big thing back in theday.
Yeah, it totally was, I'm likeoh, I got to have one of these.
I'm like nobody.
Catherine (41:02):
Oh, I didn't need it or use it Me and my three
contacts Exactly.
Andrew (41:05):
My big calendar, yeah, but anyway.
So the last little.
I don't want, don't recall afavorite moment, but yeah,
because the whole, the wholeconcept of get her words out.
yeah, because the the onebecause jay accuses bianca of um
(41:26):
being like being fake, like nothaving a stutter right and and
that's when Bianca's like, she'slike, oh well, because she says
she can't get a job, she goes Ican't get a job because I have
a stuff and because the thing itsaid like get her words out,
and she's and Jay goes an STD.
(41:46):
And I think, I think I thinkher character Jay knew she was
trying to stay stutter, yeah,but she was just trying.
Catherine (41:59):
I think she was just trying to be being cruel and and
, but I think it was just funnylike std blunt, in the same way
that she was when heidi calledon eric's phone, right.
Um, that's very jay, like she'sjust gonna say the thing that
comes into her head, right, evenif it's really, really mean yes
(42:22):
, she came off.
Andrew (42:24):
She came off as kind of mean this oh, absolutely 100 no
empathy at all yeah, like she itwas was kind of like trying to
be redemptive at the end aboutI'm a work in progress.
You're a shitty work inprogress.
Catherine (42:39):
You're not a nice person.
Andrew (42:43):
It takes me back to Seinfeld and the very last
episode.
Catherine (42:48):
They've had no redemption at all.
Andrew (42:50):
The Good Samaritan because they broke the Good
Samaritan law.
Everybody comes out to tellwhat terrible people they are.
No redemption at all.
The Good Samaritan because theybroke the Good Samaritan law.
Yeah, everybody comes out totell what terrible people they
are.
Catherine (42:56):
Yeah.
Andrew (42:57):
You're a very, very bad man, Jetty.
Catherine (42:59):
Baboo.
Andrew (43:05):
So I don't find her very redemptive in this episode.
I don't find her very likablein this episode no not at all.
So for me totally this episodeagain did at all.
So this for me totally thisepisode again did not work.
Catherine (43:16):
Missed the mark, agreed, it was really just
sloppy all over the place, justIf I had not been watching this
episode for a podcast, I wouldnot have finished this episode
no.
Andrew (43:27):
Yeah, no, not at all, but we are.
We are hosting a podcast aboutthis show, we are, so I had to
watch it exactly and watch themmultiple times.
I did not watch it multipletimes.
Catherine (43:39):
Oh, good for you.
Andrew (43:40):
Yeah, I watched it I watched it like three times.
Catherine (43:43):
It was hard to get through.
Yeah, I did not like it at all.
It felt very long.
I watched all the othersmultiple times but this one no
yeah, so this is.
This is a skipper, like I mean,it did feel very long.
It is a skipper like I mean, itdid feel very long, it is a
skipper yeah I don't even know.
I mean, I guess we'll see as weget into the other episodes,
but I don't even know if thisone's necessary for like
character development oranything.
(44:03):
And I also wonder if this ispart of why they moved other
episodes around.
Andrew (44:06):
Maybe yeah I mean the only, the only person that had
well, the only two people thathad character development like
not character development butdepth of character a little bit
was the mother, cause you foundout she was a prolific author
and you actually found out whatthe hell Aaron actually does.
Cause it.
We're now in episode three andthis is the first time we talk
(44:27):
about him at all, other thanseeing him in the first episode,
and this just occurred to me.
Catherine (44:33):
So is Jay's name different than Sharon and Aaron?
Because the parents are Karenand Darren.
Oh God, is Jay different fromeveryone else?
Because Jay is different fromeveryone else.
Andrew (44:48):
Maybe her name is Jaron.
She just goes by J.
Catherine (44:55):
Yeah, that just occurred to me.
I'm like wait a second.
The father is Darren, themother is Karen, the sister is
Sharon and the brother is Aaronand J and J and Peggy Exactly,
skylar sister.
Andrew (45:10):
Interesting.
I never put that together.
Catherine (45:11):
Yeah, that just kind of came to me as I was thinking
about it.
I'm like, oh, like, is theresome kind of like?
Is that just a thing that thewriters did for that very reason
to be like she's different, orare they trying to say something
deeper?
Like she's, she was like kindof created to be different.
Andrew (45:33):
Right, she was born to be different.
Catherine (45:36):
Yeah, she was set up to be different from like day
one.
Right, I wonder.
Andrew (45:47):
Interesting, so I'm just huh.
Ooh interesting, okay, so.
So let's talk about some trivia, some background to this yes
this episode.
Obviously I don't know.
(46:17):
So obviously the episode istitled Karma Chameleon, so is it
?
We're talking about the karmicconsequences of Bianca's actions
.
Catherine (46:28):
Or Jay or Jay, just a substandard human.
Andrew (46:30):
Yeah, I don't know, but the actress who plays Bianca,
carrie Matchett again all sortsof TV, but I think it was.
What did I say?
Grey's Anatomy.
Catherine (46:47):
Yes.
Andrew (46:47):
I think she was on several years of Grey's Anatomy.
Here's a bizarre fact that Idid not know.
Series co-creator Brian Fullerapparently this is one of his
favorite episodes has said ininterviews that episodes like
Karma Chameleon were where theyreally started leaning into the
idea of the muses not justhelping others but challenging
(47:10):
Jay's worldview in uncomfortableways.
Catherine (47:14):
I mean, I guess.
Andrew (47:19):
Yeah, I don't know.
I get what he's saying yeah, Iget what he's saying.
Catherine (47:26):
I get what he's saying from like a character arc
perspective yes, they'rebuilding her up to start to be
more introspective maybe Rightand start to it's not just about
helping someone else.
Andrew (47:42):
It's about learning.
Catherine (47:43):
It's what she's learning from helping.
Andrew (47:45):
Exactly what she's learning about herself in
helping in helping others.
So hopefully we'll see thatplay out in future episodes.
Unfortunately, they didn'treally get to live that out
being canceled after fourepisodes.
So we will certainly see andI'm trying to think, oh, so the
(48:07):
one thing I was going to pointout because we didn't point this
out, we haven't pointed thisout earlier?
Because, again, lee Pace thisis really one of the first times
he's actively participating inthe episode.
Right, lee pace was not theoriginal actor for for this role
.
Who was it?
I?
I didn't tell you this.
Oh, I think you did.
Adam scott, you did tell me.
adam scott is in the unairedoriginal pilot episode of this
(48:30):
of this episode of this show, ofthis show, and there was some
scheduling conflict or somethingthat he couldn't do, the he
couldn't commit to a series atthat point, I think.
Catherine (48:40):
I'm laughing because Adam Scott is undoubtedly a
great actor, but Lee Pace is somuch hotter.
Andrew (48:45):
Lee Pace is definitely hotter.
I'll give you that so muchhotter.
But we were talking aboutSeverance earlier and see it
comes right back to severance inthe end of this podcast episode
when we talk about Adam Scott.
Once more Waffle party.
Catherine (48:58):
No, we talked about that in the last episode.
Was that the last?
Andrew (49:01):
episode yeah, same day.
Catherine (49:03):
Yes, see, this is what happens when we do multiple
episodes in one day.
We're not good at this.
I'm the Doppler effect.
Andrew (49:10):
Yeah, so again.
Yes, lots of severance talkthese last two episodes, but
anyway, again.
So so, for any of you thinkingabout watching the series, if
you haven't watched it already,don't, don't give up on the show
(49:31):
after this episode.
Well, we're going to keep going.
We're going to keep going, sostick with us.
I'm sure it's going to getbetter Again.
Check out our Instagram.
We're Seeking Season 2, atSeeking Season 2.
Please follow, subscribe to thepodcast.
(49:52):
Wherever you listen to podcasts, check out the subreddit,
please.
Please follow.
Subscribe to the podcast where,wherever you listen to podcasts
.
Um, check out the subreddit.
It's, it's.
I mean, we don't host it, butcheck it out.
There's some, there's somegreat people in there that, uh,
that have some interestinglittle tidbits about, about the
series and the actors, uh, inthe show, et cetera.
So check it out and thank you.
Thank you again for listeningto another episode of seeking
(50:15):
season two, where we coveredkarma chameleon, episode three.
I got it right with my holdingon my fingers.
Catherine (50:20):
Now you've got the right number of fingers, the
coffee is kicking in.
Andrew (50:23):
Coffee is kicking in.
Finally, episode three of theone season of wonder falls, so
stick with us for the nextepisode, which is the final
episode that aired.
It was the second episode thataired, but the final, the four
episodes very complicated.
Catherine (50:42):
We're basically getting through the episodes
that actually aired on TV.
Thank you, thank you forsummarizing that so succinctly.
Andrew (50:49):
Yes, and what is it called?
I didn't even.
Oops, oops.
Catherine (50:53):
It's not called called.
I didn't even Oops, oops, it'snot called oops.
I said, oops, we didn't look itup.
Andrew (51:01):
Oops, we didn't do it again, so pink flamingos was the
other one.
Catherine (51:10):
Is it wound up, penguin?
Andrew (51:13):
Wound up penguin.
Catherine (51:19):
Interesting.
Andrew (51:23):
There's one called muffin Buffalo Crime dog.
I can't wait for the crime dogto start talking to her.
That's going to be aninteresting one.
Barrel bear Lovesick ass.
Nice, going to be aninteresting one, barrel Bear
Lovesick Ass.
Catherine (51:35):
Nice.
Andrew (51:36):
That should be a band name.
We were talking about episodesthat were band names.
See if there's a band calledLovesick Ass.
Catherine (51:43):
Safety Canary.
Andrew (51:45):
Lying Pig Cocktail, bunny, totem Mole and Caged Bird
.
Can't wait.
Catherine (51:54):
I'm looking up.
No, there's a band calledLovesick, but not Lovesick Ass.
Andrew (52:00):
Interesting, fantastic.
Catherine (52:07):
You know my band name .
If I had a band.
Andrew (52:10):
Hey, that's my bike.
No, oh, uncle Pep's.
Catherine (52:11):
Summer Haircut.
Uncle Pep's Summer Haircut.
Andrew (52:13):
Uncle Pep's Summer Haircut Excellent.
On that note, since it's justabout summer, go get your
haircut.
Have a great time.
Catch you in two weeks-ish.
Sure Sounds good to me, I don'tknow when we're airing any of
these, who knows?
Catherine (52:28):
Whenever they get published is when they get
published.
Andrew (52:30):
That's right, what are we calling it?
So what is it?
Wound up penguin, yeah.
So come back next time forepisode four.
Wound up penguin, yeah, theyaired all sorts out of?
Catherine (52:44):
Yeah, they're all out of order.
Yeah, look at the yeah.
Andrew (52:48):
This was technically episode three, I think.
Catherine (52:50):
Yeah, this was technically episode three.
Andrew (52:52):
I think, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
Either way, we'll get to it.
Yes, we will have a great timeeverybody.
We'll talk to you next time.
Bye.
Catherine (53:01):
Bye, bye, bye, bye.
Welcome again to another episode.
Episode three is the magicnumber.
Episode three of Seeking,season Two.
We are your hosts, andrew andCatherine and Catherine and
Catherine.
Yes, we got canceled, but aftermore than a few seasons, us as
(00:36):
a relationship.
Catherine (00:36):
Our relationship got canceled.
Andrew (00:37):
Our relationship got canceled.
Catherine (00:39):
After 18 years of marriage, 22 years together, yes
, and yet here we are.
Andrew (00:46):
And yet here we are.
And yet here we are, podcast.
Here we are, face to face acouple of silver spoons bingo.
Catherine (00:54):
Did you think I wouldn't know that?
Andrew (00:55):
I know you I know you'd know that.
That's why I was waiting for it.
I knew I knew you'd nail thatline.
So welcome back to seekingseason two, where we analyze TV
shows that received only aseason or less than a season in
the case of Wonderfalls, only aseason and we will debate
whether or not they deserved aseason 2 or not.
(01:17):
So far the jury's out.
I think on Wonderfalls, I thinkwe're probably about 50.
After two episodes in, we'relike 50-50,.
I think.
On Wonderfalls, I think we'reprobably about 50.
After two episodes in, we'relike 50-50,.
I think at this point I'm 66-33.
66-33.
Ooh, nice.
In which direction?
Catherine (01:36):
I liked the first two episodes.
I did not like this one at all.
Andrew (01:40):
Yeah, this one was a bit .
I was saying before thisepisode we were 50-50.
Catherine (01:45):
Yes, before this episode.
Oh no, before this episode.
I would have said yes, youwould have said yes.
Andrew (01:50):
Yeah, it deserves a season two Okay.
Catherine (01:51):
I liked the first couple episodes quite a bit.
I think there are some issueswith the writing, but I think
that's a lot of shows very earlyon.
Andrew (01:58):
Right, right right.
Catherine (01:59):
So I can overlook that.
I can overlook that I.
Andrew (02:06):
I agree with you there um, I mean, I think they're at a
point where they haven't foundtheir footing yet, right?
So let's see if they find theirfooting in this episode episode
number three, yeah, which Ibelieve was episode aired as
episode number three.
I believe that's correct.
They flip-flop two and four.
Uh, episode three karma,chameleon, karma, karma, karma,
karma, karma.
So, first of all, my firstissue.
Catherine (02:26):
Yes.
Andrew (02:29):
I know it's a play on the song, yeah, but here's the
thing.
What does karma have to do withthis episode?
Catherine (02:36):
Yeah, nothing, nothing.
Andrew (02:37):
Just because it's a chameleon that talks to her,
we've got to call it KarmaChameleon.
Catherine (02:48):
So right off the bat I was like, okay, this is so.
Yes, are these all song lyrics?
Maybe not.
I was trying to see if therewas a a running.
Yeah, like pink Flamingo was a,a song by Dave McCartney and
the pink flamingos 1996.
(03:09):
I'm just trying to see ifthere's like cause a lot of
shows lion.
Andrew (03:13):
Was there a song called why?
If there, was a song called waxlion.
Catherine (03:17):
I will eat your hat.
Andrew (03:19):
I will eat, and my hat's right next to me.
Catherine (03:22):
Oh yeah, look at that , there's a hat.
Oh, look at that, there's a hat.
Oh, look a hat.
Wax Lion is a noisy rock bandbased in Brooklyn, new York.
Let's see when were theyfounded?
Yeah, I don't think Wax Lion isa song.
Okay, so maybe none of it makesany sense.
Andrew (03:45):
So we were talking about whether the episode titles have
meaning, so what?
Catherine (03:47):
we're finding out is they don't, they don't know,
they have no meaning they areliterally just named after
whatever is talking to her inthe episode and they had to call
it karma cameo.
I just I know why couldn't youjust be like I don't know,
talking chameleon?
Andrew (04:00):
rainbow chameleon, like I know exactly.
Catherine (04:02):
Yeah, like anything exactly chameleon cam literally
could have just called itchameleon, rainbow chameleon,
like I know Exactly.
Yeah, like anything.
Exactly, chameleon, youliterally could have just called
it chameleon, exactly.
Andrew (04:09):
I don't know.
They thought they were clever.
Well, here's the well.
Okay, Now, speaking of clevercause, this didn't occur to me
until right this very moment.
Excellent Speaking ofchameleons.
Catherine (04:19):
Yes.
Andrew (04:19):
Bianca.
Oh duh, oh, bianca is thechameleon.
Catherine (04:25):
But it still has nothing to do with karma.
Andrew (04:28):
It has nothing to do.
Fuck, I don't know why they putkarma in it.
It's so annoying.
Anyway, I feel like it was justfor the sake of calling it
karma chameleon, to be clever.
It has nothing to do with theepisode, except for, obviously,
the talking chameleon.
Catherine (04:43):
Right.
Andrew (04:44):
AKA Bianca the chameleon Single white female so let's
get into some of the detailsfirst.
So kind of the plot line is Jayis starting to mentor a young
runaway.
Catherine (04:59):
Yep.
Andrew (05:01):
Who appears to be a young runaway with a stutter Yep
Named Bianca G, gets her a jobat Wonder Falls and Bianca, so
kindly quote unquote repays herkindness by taking over her life
.
A la single white femalecharming the Tyler family,
pursuing Jay's crush, eric thebartender.
(05:23):
Jay is motivated to fight forher life and help bianca get her
own.
Catherine (05:30):
yeah, fascinating is it, though?
Andrew (05:33):
it is this one was written by tim muneer.
Love tim muneer.
Do you know?
Catherine (05:38):
are you being serious or of course I know who Tim
Minear is.
Okay, they got the mustard out,they got the mustard.
Andrew (05:48):
Okay, I know what you're talking about, but please.
Catherine (05:51):
Tim Minear was a writer on Buffy the Vampire
Slayer and later, I believe,showrunner for Angel.
Andrew (05:59):
He was an executive producer.
Catherine (06:00):
Executive producer On Angel and Firefly yes, but Tim
Minear is very much in theBuffyverse, which is very much
my area.
Andrew (06:07):
Yes, so explain the whole singing.
Catherine (06:15):
Oh, once more with feeling.
Tim Minear was in the episodeonce more with feeling and has a
lovely voice.
It's a Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the musical episode, yes, all
songs written by Joss Whedon,who is a problematic and
terrible man.
So we just pretend he doesn'texist anymore.
Andrew (06:30):
That's right, but we celebrate his work but not the
man.
Catherine (06:33):
I will never not love Buffy, the Vampire Slayer Right
Having a much, much harder timewith JK Rowling right now.
Ooh.
Oof yikes, yeah, 10 foot polenot not far enough I'm.
I will still buy actually buffybranded things, even though the
money royalties probably go tohim, probably.
(06:54):
I will only buy buffy.
I will only buy harry potterstuff from independent artists
going forward.
Yeah, can't support her.
She's a horrible person.
Yeah anyway, did.
Andrew (07:04):
You also know that tim menier was also an executive
story editor.
Can't support her.
She's a horrible person.
Catherine (07:08):
Yeah, anyway, did you also know that.
Andrew (07:14):
Tim Minear was also an executive story editor on the
X-Files Season 5?
I did not know that, yeah.
Catherine (07:19):
And also has quite a few writing credits on Angel and
Firefly.
Yeah, he's very prolific anddefinitely was very in that
whole Joss whedon world.
Uh, in the late 90s, early2000s yes, this was also
directed by marita.
Andrew (07:32):
I'm gonna butcher her last name grabyak, sure, sure,
again prolific director I I was.
I was looking at her credits inimdb like just obviously a
relationship with joss whedonhere too.
All over the place.
Catherine (07:45):
Angel Buffy, firefly Dollhouse.
Andrew (07:47):
Yes.
Catherine (07:49):
Yeah, that's all Joss shows.
Andrew (07:52):
And here again is Dawson's Creek.
Catherine (07:53):
I don't want to wait.
Andrew (07:55):
Yes, sorry, damn it.
Now I've got to pay for that.
Catherine (07:59):
I don't think I used enough of it.
Oh sweet.
Andrew (08:07):
I could keep going.
She also directed a bunch ofepisodes of 9-1-1.
Catherine (08:11):
I have never watched that show.
I see ads for it constantly.
Andrew (08:14):
I guess there's spinoffs too, none of which I have seen.
Oh yeah.
Catherine (08:18):
All of these procedurals do so well and I'm
not interested in any of them.
I mean, is Will Trenttechnically a procedural?
Because I do love that show.
Andrew (08:28):
Love me, some Will Trent , what a good show.
Catherine (08:30):
Did you watch the season yet, though it's so good?
I watched the first coupleepisodes.
It's a good season.
Andrew (08:37):
Excellent, there's so much TV I've got to catch up on
Because we were watchingSeverance but I haven't Did you
watch the end of it yet.
No.
Catherine (08:45):
Have you yeah.
Andrew (08:47):
Oh, you gave up on our co-watching.
Catherine (08:49):
Well, so did you, didn't you?
No, oh, I thought you meant youand Laura were watching
Severance.
No, we can go back to it.
Andrew (08:57):
No, no, no, that's all right.
Catherine (08:58):
What happened was Rob was way ahead and I was afraid
he was going to ruin it for meif.
I didn't watch through, so Iwatched it.
Andrew (09:07):
I've only watched the first episode, or the first or
second episode.
Catherine (09:10):
It's a weird season and I had a lot of questions at
the last episode.
So when you get there, let meknow, because I got a lot to
talk about.
Andrew (09:16):
Alright, I will definitely watch that.
Catherine (09:18):
I always have a lot to talk about.
Andrew (09:20):
That's why we have a podcast, that's why you're the
co-host of the podcast.
Catherine (09:24):
Because I have a lot to talk about.
I got a lot of opinions.
I got a lot of problems withyou people.
Now for the airing of thegrievances.
I got a lot of problems with youpeople.
Andrew (09:32):
You're going to hear about it.
Exactly, you've got a lot ofproblems with this episode.
Catherine (09:40):
I do, and we're going to say up front Andrew is much
better versed in this episodebecause I hated it and I only
watched it once.
Andrew (09:47):
Yeah, I've got a lot of personal feelings about this
episode.
Yeah, so let's dive into it.
So let's go through.
Let's go further into the mainplot.
Yeah Again, karma Chameleon Jayencounters Bianca AKA binky.
(10:07):
God yeah, stupid nickname,awful nickname.
Catherine (10:10):
Stupid.
No one would choose that.
Andrew (10:13):
If you're a Bianca out there that chose the nickname
binky, we're.
Catherine (10:17):
I'm not sorry, that's a bad nickname.
Andrew (10:19):
Bad nickname.
Catherine (10:20):
Yeah.
Andrew (10:21):
You got to tell the baby is ugly, that's an ugly baby.
Catherine (10:24):
That baby is breathtaking exactly I hate.
So again, let's just go rightinto what worked and what didn't
work, because, okay, the wholething about the stutter I mean
oh, awful awful choice of like aplot point like that, that
she's got a stutter like well,and they and this is something
(10:45):
to overcome and they play thestutter for comedy, which is
just oh, oh, I know it's a god,yeah again, and, and this keeps
coming up this is a 2025perspective on something that
was more appropriate, I guess,or acceptable in the early 2000s
(11:09):
, it passed in 2004.
Andrew (11:10):
Awful, awful, awful, awful.
Yeah, so she's got the stutter,which is more pronounced when
she is stressed, but at least,and again, at least Mahondra
points it out at some point.
Catherine (11:24):
Yeah.
Andrew (11:24):
Because when Bianca's going and then then Jay makes
fun of her and is like buh, buh,buh, bye, yeah.
Then like at least Mahandracalls her out and was like yo,
that was not cool, yeah, so atleast, and and Mahandra's
character, I think, is very muchthe voice of reason, though we
talked about it in the lastepisode where she kind of is the
(11:49):
mirror to Jay, like you know,to Jay.
Catherine (11:51):
Jay holds that mirror up of being vengeful and
Mahondra sees herself in it andis like, oh, don't like that.
I think Mahondra, is she just aserver at the restaurant, I
believe so.
But she's still somehow.
Don't denigrate servers.
Andrew (12:10):
No, I just meant is she the manager?
Catherine (12:12):
Because I kind of thought she might be the manager
.
Because my whole point is,mahondra is much more mature
than Jay Very much, and muchmore like voice of reason-y than
Jay yes agreed.
So that was really all I wasgetting at with.
That is that Mahondraconstantly kind of stands up as
the more mature of the two,despite being the same age and
(12:33):
kind of having similarexperiences, except that Jay
went to a freaking Ivy Leaguecollege and learned nothing.
Andrew (12:38):
Right, well, I don't know.
I mean she did write.
I mean, in this episode she didwrite a 5,000-word article
about and don't get me startedAgain this episode was very
problematic.
It really is.
It's awful, so let's talk moreabout the plot and then let's
(12:59):
dive into it.
So again, it was in the bar.
Bianca steals Jay's wallet,right, and we're starting to get
glimpses of Bianca spying onJay.
Bianca returns the wallet thisis where we see the chameleon,
(13:24):
because Jay realizes she'shaving a, that Bianca stutters.
She hears the chameleon say gether words out.
And she goes oh, her words.
So that's when it, that's whenit clicks that this is the
person that she's supposed toright, help, um, and I don't
know if, like, it's not about,it's weird, because I don't know
if she thinks she's trying tolike, cure her stutter or or
(13:46):
what she's trying to do.
But, um, then then at thispoint, um, you see the slow
progression of Bianca becomingJay, right the hair.
Catherine (14:00):
Yeah.
Andrew (14:01):
The vest.
Yeah, the slacker kind ofdisaffected attitude.
Yeah, all that.
She's starting to mimic herbehavior, her behavior starting
to kind of.
Then she starts because she andat one point she and Jay are
talking about Eric the bartenderand Jay mentions that she
(14:22):
thinks that he's cute, and sonow Bianca is kind of weaseling
her way in on the bartender.
It's very weird, like for who'ssupposed to be an investigative
reporter.
Catherine (14:37):
Yeah, she gets very weird I also really I feel like
they like, they haveheavy-handedly like well, I did
that.
I was just gonna say I feel likethey went too hard on a lot of
it.
Like her father comes in andgives Bianca a kiss on the cheek
, thinking she's like, come on,yeah, you could have put, you
(15:00):
know, five identical people nextto me and I'm pretty sure my
father could have picked me outof that lineup Like yeah, it
just again.
Oh, it's supposed to be funny,I get it.
And I certainly have a sense ofhumor.
Um, I just didn't find thatfunny no I don't know and maybe
that's that's me empathizingwith jay, right like right how
horrifying it would be to seeyour father come in and think
somebody else was you right.
(15:21):
Um, and maybe that's the point,but I just thought it was.
Again, you said heavy-handedand I think that's the perfect
phrase for it yeah, so here.
Andrew (15:31):
Here's the thing, though , because I think it's all so.
So the episode kicks off whenthe father so we learn really in
this episode that the mother isan author, apparently a very
prolific.
This is what her sixth book, orsomething, and she's she writes
travel books.
Catherine (15:50):
That woman doesn't look like she's set foot outside
a spa in 10 years.
Yeah, it's really weird.
Um, and this goes back to mypoint from the last episode of,
I don't think they really builtout most of the characters
beyond yeah jay, maybe sharonright, the dad is starting to
have a personality, right, andnow the mom is a travel writer
(16:11):
apparently.
Andrew (16:11):
so so weird.
But it starts out the father'sreading the blurb on the dust
jacket of the book.
Catherine (16:20):
Which I guess the blurb is kind of the subplot.
Right, the blurb is the subplot.
Andrew (16:24):
So it talks about.
He is a well-known localphysician.
The daughter is a successfulimmigration attorney.
Yep, and again we get intosomething else problematic.
He is the.
The son, aaron, is the firstnon-asian winner of the um.
What's the scholarship?
Catherine (16:46):
scholarship for religious studies?
Andrew (16:48):
yes, he's the first non-asian winner of like, so the
youngest non-asian winneryoungest non-asian winner, the
youngest non-Asian winnerYoungest non-Asian winner of the
Fulton Scholarship.
It's just again so problematic.
Catherine (17:01):
Do Asian people even exist in this show?
Andrew (17:06):
Because this is another point that you wanted to bring
up God.
Where do we begin?
There's so many problems.
Yeah, so let's get to, let's,let's beat one problem dead
horse at a time um I mean, it'sthe thing that everybody talks
about with friends, right?
Catherine (17:20):
yes, everyone's white everyone's white, exactly,
except you got mahondra yes, andI mean that's on south park
where the black kid's name istoken.
Yes, yeah, there's a reason forthat, right, I know.
And I didn't want hondra is thetoken.
Yes, well, that's why I said itthe way I did, because I don't
want to be like she's the tokenblack person, but she is.
(17:41):
She's the token minority.
Right, this was very, veryconsistent with early 2000s,
yeah late 90s to early 2000syeah.
Andrew (17:52):
Late nineties to early 2000s yeah, Um lack of diversity
.
Catherine (17:55):
Um, like I'm even thinking about.
You know, buffy is my favoriteshow, but early seasons you
didn't have anybody Right, andeven later you get like Robin
wood and and a few people in,but and then finally, when you
move to angel, you get gun as amain character, but again it's
like they're the only one Right.
(18:17):
It's just a tough, yeah, andthen, yeah, it's just a tough
time period, I think, and notthat we don't still have those
problems in TV, because weabsolutely do, but at least
there's a little bit morerepresentation now than there
used to be, right.
Andrew (18:34):
So let's go so.
So draw all of this back to myoriginal point of when the
father says hello to Bianca asJay, yeah, and she's like hello
dad, yeah, she's creepy, yeah.
Well, here's the thing, though.
So what, I was tying it back toreading of the blurb, so it
reads off everybody is supersuccessful, except the five
(18:58):
words, and one is a digit of Jay, the daughter who is 24.
So even in the blurb she's veryinsignificant, kind of an
afterthought.
So I think a lot of thoselittle scenes aren't necessarily
(19:18):
meant to be humorous, but aremeant to hammer home the point
of the subplot that I almostfeel it's like the photograph in
Back to the Future where thefamily's disappearing, like
she's disappearing.
I feel like she feels like sheis slowly disappearing and not
(19:39):
out of existence, yeah, sothat's how I kind of see it,
because she hasn't, according toher, compared to her family,
she hasn't been super successful.
She works a retail job rightafter after going to brown, some
somehow got into brown as wesaid last episode to brown with
(20:02):
no extracurriculars, noextracurriculars.
That's how that works, amazingum, so I I feel like they kind
of they're just playing into thefact that she's disappearing
and is insignificant like she's.
She sees herself as beinginsignificant.
Um, and then, and then, themain plot of single white female
(20:24):
, bianca, becoming jay, I think,when, when she, when jay,
finally finds out that b Biancais an investigative reporter,
she suddenly feels, I think,significant because Bianca is
writing about her, even thoughit's about her not being
(20:46):
successful.
It's because she chooses not toRight.
She chooses to.
She's made that.
Chooses not to Right Like shechooses to.
She's made that choice.
Yeah.
Catherine (20:59):
Can we also discuss Bianca's an investigative
reporter at age 21?
, because she said she was afreshman when Jay was a senior.
Is that right?
Andrew (21:10):
Yeah, well, here's see, I think, I think she's coined
herself as an investigator.
Catherine (21:13):
Yeah, because like she seems to be working
independently.
Andrew (21:17):
Because I think she submitted a story idea to this
magazine and they said, yeah, gofor it.
Go for it Because she doesn't.
I mean because they don'taccept the letter until the end,
they don't accept the articleuntil the end.
So I think she's just coinedherself as an investigative
reporter.
I don't think that's.
I like that better, because at21, you're definitely still
(21:38):
fetching people's coffee at thatpoint Exactly.
So that's a lot of the mainplot to it is just this whole
single white female story ofBianca taking over Jay's life.
Catherine (21:54):
And we kind of talked about the subplot, which is
really just the blurb.
Andrew (21:58):
Really the blurb, Like I think they're.
They're very intertwined, yeah,but I think it's really Jay
finding herself understandingthat who she is in all in all
this, so um and also being okaywith the fact that she's a work
in progress right, which I don'tthink she's seen herself as
(22:20):
before right, you know, and so.
So, as I said, as we werediscussing this episode before
recording yeah, I've got a lotof opinions on this because, no,
because I see, I see I see alot of myself in in this episode
, okay, so so first of all,calling her gen y is wrong yeah,
well, I mean two things.
(22:42):
Yes, go ahead you, no, no you.
You want to talk about twothings hit me as you pointed out
, she'd be gen x.
She would be jay, because thisis 2004, she's 24, so she would
have been born 1980, so she'stail end of gen x.
But she's gen x she would be,because this is 2004, she's 24,
so she would have been born 1980.
Catherine (22:54):
So she's tail end of gen x, but she's gen x right,
she's on the cusp of gen x andand then I just thought it was
funny to hear anybody called geny anymore, because gen y is
millennials, right.
So it was kind of jarring forme, right.
I was like, oh, gen y, oh yeah,that was a thing, wasn't it
exactly?
Andrew (23:16):
so it was very interesting because they talk
about the disaffected 20somethings.
And I was saying this earlierif we're talking about 20
somethings, if Jay is on thecusp at 24, so you've got half
of the 20 somethings who aretruly Gen X.
So I really don't feel like Ireally don't feel like it was
(23:38):
that the millennials are.
Again, we can go into all theanalysis of what each generation
is like, but I don't feel likethe millennials are the
disaffected youth.
I think that's really Gen X.
I think they really missed themark on what generation they
were talking about.
I think they wanted to talkabout Gen Y.
Yeah, I think they had thisgreat idea let's talk about Gen
(24:00):
Y Right, and then how current,exactly.
Let's be hip, let's be current.
And then they totally justmissed the whole, not even the
bullseye, they didn't even hitanywhere on the target.
They just missed this entirely.
They just hit a squirrel in thetree or something, or the cat.
Catherine (24:24):
I was going to say is that what squirrels sound like?
Andrew (24:25):
No, I haven't talked to a squirrel in a long time, okay,
so, anyway, talk talked to asquirrel.
Catherine (24:42):
Oh god, it's just we mentioned.
I know we mentioned in the lastepisode, but just so everyone's
clear, we're both still reallyfreaking tired yeah, we're still
.
Andrew (24:47):
This is, we're recording two episodes on the same day
and we are still exhausted westarted out tired and now we're
punch drunk.
We're loopy, yeah I mean we, wewent and got started.
Well, I mean you got.
Catherine (24:59):
You got your summer berry lemonade and there's some
caffeine in the refreshers isthere some caffeine?
Andrew (25:04):
yeah, that's good.
Catherine (25:06):
Not enough probably, but I did down an entire diet
mountain dew on the way here sorock on.
Andrew (25:11):
I love that for you, thank you and I've got my venti
latte with four.
Catherine (25:18):
He said four, he held up three fingers.
That's how today is going.
Andrew (25:24):
That's exactly how that is a perfect, perfect wrap up of
the day.
Catherine (25:30):
My latte was four shots, to quote my favorite,
very tertiary character on 90day, fiance Yike Yike.
Andrew (25:39):
Exactly, exactly, or, as drunk Ben Affleck would say,
exactly, exactly, exactly.
So, anyway, um, rough, rough,rough episode all around the
plot, the subplot.
Yeah, so let's talk about rough, rough episode all around the
plot, the subplot.
Yeah, so let's talk about againwe, we, we mentioned it.
The portrayal of the stutterportrayal, the stutter, awful,
(26:02):
awful, um, just just the mind on.
I mean it was painful.
It was very painful.
It was hard to watch.
Catherine (26:09):
It was hard to watch because you feel for a person
who has a stutter to begin with.
Because it is hard for watchbecause you feel for a person
who has a stutter to begin withbecause it is hard for them to
get their words out, sure, butthen when it's being turned into
a joke and everybody'sessentially making fun of her
right, awful, awful, awful,awful I agree.
Andrew (26:25):
So the stutter was using that as a as a plot point.
Terrible overall the show ingeneral.
Lack of diversity I mean again,one person of color in the
entire cast.
I mean it was again late 90s,early 2000s.
(26:47):
This was typical of these showsIn 2025, we know that, we
recognize that.
So it's just.
This is just another one ofthose shows that certainly lack
diversity.
I think the writing about Gen Ywas just sloppy.
Like I said, I think theywanted to talk about Gen Y
(27:08):
because it was the thing to talkabout at the time, Because
we're just, it was aninteresting time in 2004,
because you're post Y2K, post9-11, which is still fresh in
people's minds a few years out.
So I feel like Gen Y was justthe thing to talk about.
(27:31):
Because, again, they weren'teven called millennials at the
time, so they coined the termGen Y.
Hey, let's like.
Gen Y was just like the thingto talk about.
Cause again, they weren't evencalled millennials at the time,
Right so you know.
They coined the term Gen Y.
Hey, let's talk about Gen Y,Gen.
Catherine (27:38):
Y is the thing to talk about, the same way that,
like millennials and Gen Z arethe thing to talk about now.
Andrew (27:44):
Right.
Catherine (27:45):
It's just every.
It's just whoever the youngpeople are.
Andrew (27:58):
Right are right, they want, they want to be hip, they
want to be cool, um, and it'sjust, it doesn't, it doesn't
land, it doesn't land, well, noat all, um, so that's, that's.
That's frustrating.
Now I know.
So this I I want to say thisepisode didn't work at all I
would agree I mean, I think Ithink they, I think they nailed
it at the end.
Catherine (28:19):
I think they nailed the subplot, yeah I mean I think
I would agree, and I think thatcame out of the main plot.
Andrew (28:25):
Yeah, um, it just wasn't done well seeing that she's a
work in progress really I thinkgives her more depth depth than
her just being a slacker, yeah.
Catherine (28:37):
I still think they're trying to figure out who the
heck the mom's character is Iagree.
She's sitting there soempathetic toward Bianca no,
empathy towards her own childbut she's also supposed to be
this like caring mother and wife, but I don't get that at all
from her.
Andrew (28:57):
Oh, so let's talk about this though as well.
So, because you mentioned inthe last episode that you want
to talk about in this episode,the father, the development of
the father character, yeah.
Being close, you know, gettingbeing a more sympathetic
character toward Jay yeah,because all sorts of things.
I remember the scene when Jayand Bianca are fighting over the
(29:17):
plate cleaning up after pizzanight and Jay is like I always
clean up and Sharon's like younever come to pizza night but
then like the plate shatterscause they both let go of the
plate shatters and the father'slike it's okay, he's, like
you've lost, you just lost yourjob, like he's, he's definitely
empathy yes, he's definitelyempathetic toward, toward her
situation.
(29:37):
Um, I mean, he's the one thatfeels guilty about her not
having enough words in the blurbright, so he's the one that I I
think.
I think he's the one thatcoordinated getting her a total
of 15 words.
Well, and it's in the blurb.
Catherine (29:53):
And again that goes back to like, what is up with
this mother?
Like, are we supposed to seeher as, like she has, she has no
redeeming value right she, shethinks sharon and aaron, again
sharon and aaron.
Um, she thinks sharon and aaronare so wonderful because
(30:14):
they're successful.
But, like you, have three kids.
Andrew (30:17):
They've lived longer.
They've lived longer than you.
Catherine (30:21):
So I mean literally.
All you can say is Jay, adaughter, is 24.
Jay, a Brown graduatePhilosophy.
Andrew (30:29):
Brown, graduate in philosophy.
Catherine (30:31):
Lives in Niagara Falls Right Like you don't even
have to get into the whole thing.
That happens at the end, whereshe talks about that.
No, that's me, Catherine.
A senior marketing managerlives in New Jersey with her
four cats.
Lovely, Um, I mean, it's justso.
It's so reductive.
(30:51):
There's plenty you could sayabout Jay.
She's three years out of college.
That is still a relevant timeto talk about the fact that she
went to an ivy right like thatis not an unsuccessful person,
that is a person figuring it out, right.
I mean, when I graduated fromcollege, I worked in an
insurance brokerage.
It surely was not what I wantedto do with my life, right, but
you're figuring it out.
(31:12):
I bounced from job to job, umoffice job to office job, but
just trying to figure out whereI fit for five years after
college, right Before I finallystarted to actually like build
my career Right, and I don'tthink anybody would have looked
at me and been like Catherine isunsuccessful because she
doesn't know exactly what shewants to do with her life right
(31:34):
now.
So it's just so dismissive.
And am I supposed to like themother Because I hate her?
She is not.
They give her moments like tinylittle moments.
Andrew (31:49):
She's not been a likable character up until this point.
Catherine (31:52):
They give her moments of humanity.
Yeah, they don't give her apersonality.
No, I hate it.
I don't like it.
Andrew (32:01):
I agree, so let me talk about I've got some.
I know you don't have anyfavorite moments.
Catherine (32:07):
Oh, I do have one.
Andrew (32:09):
I do have one Hit me.
Catherine (32:12):
Bianca is testing the little nerf shooter and shoots
the mouth breather in the eye.
I can't stand the mouthbreather it works.
Andrew (32:23):
Because a woman's returning a toy like a nerf gun.
Catherine (32:26):
Yeah, say it doesn't work.
Andrew (32:28):
This one doesn't work she's like, and I want to test
the other one before I take it,so I know it works.
Catherine (32:33):
And she shoots it and hits the mouth breather right
in the eye Right in the eye,detached retina, I think, didn't
they say yes?
Yeah, I shouldn't find it funny, but I know I did, of course.
(32:57):
And one other thing I wanted topoint out, not that it was a
favorite moment, but that it wasinteresting in the grand scheme
of the episode.
There was one scene after Jaygets fired where they cut to
Wonderfalls and Bianca looks somuch like her that I thought it
was Jay.
I was like, oh my God, jay gother job back.
And then I realized so I mean,they did a very effective job at
casting someone who lookedenough like the actress to get
away with the single whitefemale, right.
(33:17):
But you know, if I had likedthe whole episode better, I
might have been like, oh,favorite moment, like they
fooled me, ha ha, ha, ha, right.
Andrew (33:27):
So so we talked about the youngest non-Asian winner of
the Fulton scholarship.
However, I love later on, Jaymakes the comment he still lives
at home and is considered to bemore successful than me, Right,
because?
Catherine (33:41):
he's in the PhD program.
Andrew (33:43):
He's in his doctoral program.
He still lives at home.
Catherine (33:46):
If she had gone back to school, maybe she would be
perceived the same way.
It's just that they treat herlike she has no future just
because she's working in a shopright now.
But that's right now.
Andrew (33:59):
Exactly.
Catherine (34:00):
I feel like now I'm in therapy, when he constantly
says to me no, that is right now, like that's what's happening
now.
That's not your whole future.
You have no idea what's goingto happen in your future.
Andrew (34:08):
Exactly.
Catherine (34:09):
You could plan everything perfectly.
Our brother can go and get hisPhD and do nothing with it.
Andrew (34:15):
Right, exactly Another favorite line of mine.
I don't know what it was, justit's like a throwaway line, yeah
, but she's talking about Jay,is talking about the blurb.
It's right in the opening sceneand she's like I've only got
five words and one of them is adigit.
And the father goes don't parsethe blurb.
Yeah, which I, just I just it'slike something.
(34:36):
And now I want to say don'tparse the blurb.
Catherine (34:38):
Yeah, I know it is.
That's some nice wordplay.
Andrew (34:40):
It's really good.
And then and then I talkedabout this prior to our
recording when they're sittingat the table and they the
dinner's ending at all there?
Now see, because some of thempull out cell phones but like a
beeper goes off.
Catherine (34:53):
Yep.
Andrew (34:54):
A beep, I'm going to say a beeper.
Like you, people know what abeeper is, so some of you know.
Some of you still may know whata beeper is, but it's a
precursor to cell phones, I meanin 2004,.
Catherine (35:10):
did that many people actually have beepers?
Andrew (35:11):
Because I don't think I knew anyone with a pager.
Well, here's the thing becausehe's a doctor, so a doctor would
have a pager.
Catherine (35:14):
That makes sense A doctor might still have a pager.
Andrew (35:16):
A doctor still might have a pager in 2004.
Catherine (35:18):
Although, probably just a cell phone now.
Andrew (35:21):
Yeah, it would definitely be a cell phone now,
but they all pull out theirdevices, right, because the
mother pulls out that weirdphone.
Did you notice her phone phone?
Oh, no, I didn't.
Was it?
Uh, was it one of those umsidekicks?
No, no, no, it's.
It's circular at the top andlike spins, oh weird, open.
(35:41):
I, I can't even remember thatphone.
You're gonna, you're gonna,google it.
Catherine (35:45):
I totally am, because I don't know, I missed that
because, it was it was.
Andrew (35:49):
it was like a phone that I don't recall ever seeing back
in those days.
I remember the sidekicks.
I remember like the Palmdevices, like I remember all
those.
I remember like the razors,like the flips and things like
that.
But this one, like I don'trecognize.
It was circular at the top andit like spun on that circle to
(36:14):
open up to reveal the keypad andthen the top I guess would have
been like the, the uh speakerfor the earphone, for the to
talk interesting.
Catherine (36:24):
Yeah, I'm not finding anything okay, hang on.
Andrew (36:28):
It was a motorola v70 came out in 2002 I'm pretty sure
is what it was.
Yep, that's the kind of phone,but it spun on that circular
part of the top.
Catherine (36:37):
I love the description in this article.
We've got a handset that wasbonkers even by Nokia standards
the world's first phone with acircular display.
The V70 was a phone bought forits design and design alone,
with a sideways flick, swingingthe front cover around to reveal
the keypad beneath.
There weren't many in the wild,but it would go on to inspire a
(37:02):
newer, luxury version in theaura.
Six years later, I'm looking tosee if that's in here.
Yeah, oh wow, that one's wildlooking.
Andrew (37:15):
Yeah, that's basically the phone mean I mean, that's
from 2008 2008 come out yeah,but it I think it was that v70
probably interesting motorolav70 that's a that's a deep cut
right, I know, I just like itwas the weirdest thing because I
was.
I was watching it and it's likeokay, pagers go off.
(37:36):
But then I saw her look at a.
I'm like that's not a pager.
Right, so like it really stoodout to me in this episode and
I'm like I've never seen thatphone before.
Catherine (37:46):
Is this also supposed to drive home again the fact
that Jay is so not connected?
because I know we talked in thelast episode about the fact that
she doesn't have a cell phone,and this just kind of reinforces
that Right.
Andrew (38:00):
And what they did, was they also reinforced how
successful they all were.
Because the father needed aride, because the mother had the
car, mother and father cametogether.
So the father had to get to thehospital, right?
So he's like I've got to get tothe hospital, right?
So he's like I've got to get tothe hospital.
The daughter, or aaron, saidI've got to do some dissertation
work yeah I think he was goingto the library.
(38:22):
He's like, I'll take you.
And then sharon said well, Iwas going to go to the gym.
I've got a busy day at courttomorrow, right?
And then the mother was like,because she's like doesn't she
have like a book tour orsomething?
Yeah, she's got.
I've got like an early day forabout the book or something.
Yeah, so they all.
It's like they all like reallyre-emphasized again, like
they're all super successful.
(38:42):
And jay was just like I'm justgonna stay here and get drunk
yeah so they, like they, reallyhammered home the again very the
episode was very heavy handedabout this whole.
Catherine (38:53):
Gen Y slacker the quote.
Gen Y slacker.
Andrew (38:58):
So that was.
That was another interestingfavorite moment of mine about
just the pagers.
Yeah, reliving the days ofpagers, did you ever?
Did you ever have a pager?
I never had a pager.
I never had a page.
I wanted a pager, cause I didso.
Catherine (39:09):
I graduated.
Andrew (39:10):
I graduated college in 1998.
Catherine (39:14):
Yes, and as soon as I graduated I bought a red Nokia
Right.
It had a little extendableantenna.
Andrew (39:21):
Oh, I remember those.
Catherine (39:22):
Yeah, like it was the classic, like when you think of
the classic Nokia.
That's what I had Interesting.
Yeah, so I never had a pager.
It is like an iconic Buffy linethough the apocalypse If the
apocalypse, why can't I sayapocalypse now?
It is, it is, it is, it is, itis, it is, it is, it is, it is,
it is, it is, it is, it is, itis, it is, it is, it is, it is
(39:48):
it is line.
Yes, she wants to go on afreaking date, yes, anyway.
So yeah, I like I feel likepagers were like an ongoing
thing, isn't thing in theseshows too, which is just funny.
Um, I agree.
Why did you want a pager?
Andrew (40:03):
I don't know, I was just .
I was a tech head yeah, I wasalways a tech head.
Catherine (40:07):
Yeah, um, like, because I got one of the first
like palm pilots I won a PalmPilot in a raffle when I was
working a couple years out ofschool.
Congratulations, thank you.
Andrew (40:17):
I remember my brother and I went to the electronics
show at Jacob Javits Yep.
I guess it must have been the90s, I would imagine, because
there was the.
Newton, the Apple Newton, that'sright.
But the Palm Pilot, it was usrobotics.
Yeah, it was the originalcompany that, because it wasn't
palm at the time, I think it wascalled the.
(40:39):
I don't know if it's called thepalm pilot or just the pilot.
It was the us robotics.
Um, was the company.
I remember seeing them likeshow, like displayed, for the
first time, yeah, as a pdapersonal digital assistant, that
was like that was like thefirst time they coined that PDA.
It was a big thing back in theday.
Yeah, it totally was, I'm likeoh, I got to have one of these.
I'm like nobody.
Catherine (41:02):
Oh, I didn't need it or use it Me and my three
contacts Exactly.
Andrew (41:05):
My big calendar, yeah, but anyway.
So the last little.
I don't want, don't recall afavorite moment, but yeah,
because the whole, the wholeconcept of get her words out.
yeah, because the the onebecause jay accuses bianca of um
(41:26):
being like being fake, like nothaving a stutter right and and
that's when Bianca's like, she'slike, oh well, because she says
she can't get a job, she goes Ican't get a job because I have
a stuff and because the thing itsaid like get her words out,
and she's and Jay goes an STD.
(41:46):
And I think, I think I thinkher character Jay knew she was
trying to stay stutter, yeah,but she was just trying.
Catherine (41:59):
I think she was just trying to be being cruel and and
, but I think it was just funnylike std blunt, in the same way
that she was when heidi calledon eric's phone, right.
Um, that's very jay, like she'sjust gonna say the thing that
comes into her head, right, evenif it's really, really mean yes
(42:22):
, she came off.
Andrew (42:24):
She came off as kind of mean this oh, absolutely 100 no
empathy at all yeah, like she itwas was kind of like trying to
be redemptive at the end aboutI'm a work in progress.
You're a shitty work inprogress.
Catherine (42:39):
You're not a nice person.
Andrew (42:43):
It takes me back to Seinfeld and the very last
episode.
Catherine (42:48):
They've had no redemption at all.
Andrew (42:50):
The Good Samaritan because they broke the Good
Samaritan law.
Everybody comes out to tellwhat terrible people they are.
No redemption at all.
The Good Samaritan because theybroke the Good Samaritan law.
Yeah, everybody comes out totell what terrible people they
are.
Catherine (42:56):
Yeah.
Andrew (42:57):
You're a very, very bad man, Jetty.
Catherine (42:59):
Baboo.
Andrew (43:05):
So I don't find her very redemptive in this episode.
I don't find her very likablein this episode no not at all.
So for me totally this episodeagain did at all.
So this for me totally thisepisode again did not work.
Catherine (43:16):
Missed the mark, agreed, it was really just
sloppy all over the place, justIf I had not been watching this
episode for a podcast, I wouldnot have finished this episode
no.
Andrew (43:27):
Yeah, no, not at all, but we are.
We are hosting a podcast aboutthis show, we are, so I had to
watch it exactly and watch themmultiple times.
I did not watch it multipletimes.
Catherine (43:39):
Oh, good for you.
Andrew (43:40):
Yeah, I watched it I watched it like three times.
Catherine (43:43):
It was hard to get through.
Yeah, I did not like it at all.
It felt very long.
I watched all the othersmultiple times but this one no
yeah, so this is.
This is a skipper, like I mean,it did feel very long.
It is a skipper like I mean, itdid feel very long, it is a
skipper yeah I don't even know.
I mean, I guess we'll see as weget into the other episodes,
but I don't even know if thisone's necessary for like
character development oranything.
(44:03):
And I also wonder if this ispart of why they moved other
episodes around.
Andrew (44:06):
Maybe yeah I mean the only, the only person that had
well, the only two people thathad character development like
not character development butdepth of character a little bit
was the mother, cause you foundout she was a prolific author
and you actually found out whatthe hell Aaron actually does.
Cause it.
We're now in episode three andthis is the first time we talk
(44:27):
about him at all, other thanseeing him in the first episode,
and this just occurred to me.
Catherine (44:33):
So is Jay's name different than Sharon and Aaron?
Because the parents are Karenand Darren.
Oh God, is Jay different fromeveryone else?
Because Jay is different fromeveryone else.
Andrew (44:48):
Maybe her name is Jaron.
She just goes by J.
Catherine (44:55):
Yeah, that just occurred to me.
I'm like wait a second.
The father is Darren, themother is Karen, the sister is
Sharon and the brother is Aaronand J and J and Peggy Exactly,
skylar sister.
Andrew (45:10):
Interesting.
I never put that together.
Catherine (45:11):
Yeah, that just kind of came to me as I was thinking
about it.
I'm like, oh, like, is theresome kind of like?
Is that just a thing that thewriters did for that very reason
to be like she's different, orare they trying to say something
deeper?
Like she's, she was like kindof created to be different.
Andrew (45:33):
Right, she was born to be different.
Catherine (45:36):
Yeah, she was set up to be different from like day
one.
Right, I wonder.
Andrew (45:47):
Interesting, so I'm just huh.
Ooh interesting, okay, so.
So let's talk about some trivia, some background to this yes
this episode.
Obviously I don't know.
(46:17):
So obviously the episode istitled Karma Chameleon, so is it
?
We're talking about the karmicconsequences of Bianca's actions
.
Catherine (46:28):
Or Jay or Jay, just a substandard human.
Andrew (46:30):
Yeah, I don't know, but the actress who plays Bianca,
carrie Matchett again all sortsof TV, but I think it was.
What did I say?
Grey's Anatomy.
Catherine (46:47):
Yes.
Andrew (46:47):
I think she was on several years of Grey's Anatomy.
Here's a bizarre fact that Idid not know.
Series co-creator Brian Fullerapparently this is one of his
favorite episodes has said ininterviews that episodes like
Karma Chameleon were where theyreally started leaning into the
idea of the muses not justhelping others but challenging
(47:10):
Jay's worldview in uncomfortableways.
Catherine (47:14):
I mean, I guess.
Andrew (47:19):
Yeah, I don't know.
I get what he's saying yeah, Iget what he's saying.
Catherine (47:26):
I get what he's saying from like a character arc
perspective yes, they'rebuilding her up to start to be
more introspective maybe Rightand start to it's not just about
helping someone else.
Andrew (47:42):
It's about learning.
Catherine (47:43):
It's what she's learning from helping.
Andrew (47:45):
Exactly what she's learning about herself in
helping in helping others.
So hopefully we'll see thatplay out in future episodes.
Unfortunately, they didn'treally get to live that out
being canceled after fourepisodes.
So we will certainly see andI'm trying to think, oh, so the
(48:07):
one thing I was going to pointout because we didn't point this
out, we haven't pointed thisout earlier?
Because, again, lee Pace thisis really one of the first times
he's actively participating inthe episode.
Right, lee pace was not theoriginal actor for for this role
.
Who was it?
I?
I didn't tell you this.
Oh, I think you did.
Adam scott, you did tell me.
adam scott is in the unairedoriginal pilot episode of this
(48:30):
of this episode of this show, ofthis show, and there was some
scheduling conflict or somethingthat he couldn't do, the he
couldn't commit to a series atthat point, I think.
Catherine (48:40):
I'm laughing because Adam Scott is undoubtedly a
great actor, but Lee Pace is somuch hotter.
Andrew (48:45):
Lee Pace is definitely hotter.
I'll give you that so muchhotter.
But we were talking aboutSeverance earlier and see it
comes right back to severance inthe end of this podcast episode
when we talk about Adam Scott.
Once more Waffle party.
Catherine (48:58):
No, we talked about that in the last episode.
Was that the last?
Andrew (49:01):
episode yeah, same day.
Catherine (49:03):
Yes, see, this is what happens when we do multiple
episodes in one day.
We're not good at this.
I'm the Doppler effect.
Andrew (49:10):
Yeah, so again.
Yes, lots of severance talkthese last two episodes, but
anyway, again.
So so, for any of you thinkingabout watching the series, if
you haven't watched it already,don't, don't give up on the show
(49:31):
after this episode.
Well, we're going to keep going.
We're going to keep going, sostick with us.
I'm sure it's going to getbetter Again.
Check out our Instagram.
We're Seeking Season 2, atSeeking Season 2.
Please follow, subscribe to thepodcast.
(49:52):
Wherever you listen to podcasts, check out the subreddit,
please.
Please follow.
Subscribe to the podcast where,wherever you listen to podcasts
.
Um, check out the subreddit.
It's, it's.
I mean, we don't host it, butcheck it out.
There's some, there's somegreat people in there that, uh,
that have some interestinglittle tidbits about, about the
series and the actors, uh, inthe show, et cetera.
So check it out and thank you.
Thank you again for listeningto another episode of seeking
(50:15):
season two, where we coveredkarma chameleon, episode three.
I got it right with my holdingon my fingers.
Catherine (50:20):
Now you've got the right number of fingers, the
coffee is kicking in.
Andrew (50:23):
Coffee is kicking in.
Finally, episode three of theone season of wonder falls, so
stick with us for the nextepisode, which is the final
episode that aired.
It was the second episode thataired, but the final, the four
episodes very complicated.
Catherine (50:42):
We're basically getting through the episodes
that actually aired on TV.
Thank you, thank you forsummarizing that so succinctly.
Andrew (50:49):
Yes, and what is it called?
I didn't even.
Oops, oops.
Catherine (50:53):
It's not called called.
I didn't even Oops, oops, it'snot called oops.
I said, oops, we didn't look itup.
Andrew (51:01):
Oops, we didn't do it again, so pink flamingos was the
other one.
Catherine (51:10):
Is it wound up, penguin?
Andrew (51:13):
Wound up penguin.
Catherine (51:19):
Interesting.
Andrew (51:23):
There's one called muffin Buffalo Crime dog.
I can't wait for the crime dogto start talking to her.
That's going to be aninteresting one.
Barrel bear Lovesick ass.
Nice, going to be aninteresting one, barrel Bear
Lovesick Ass.
Catherine (51:35):
Nice.
Andrew (51:36):
That should be a band name.
We were talking about episodesthat were band names.
See if there's a band calledLovesick Ass.
Catherine (51:43):
Safety Canary.
Andrew (51:45):
Lying Pig Cocktail, bunny, totem Mole and Caged Bird
.
Can't wait.
Catherine (51:54):
I'm looking up.
No, there's a band calledLovesick, but not Lovesick Ass.
Andrew (52:00):
Interesting, fantastic.
Catherine (52:07):
You know my band name .
If I had a band.
Andrew (52:10):
Hey, that's my bike.
No, oh, uncle Pep's.
Catherine (52:11):
Summer Haircut.
Uncle Pep's Summer Haircut.
Andrew (52:13):
Uncle Pep's Summer Haircut Excellent.
On that note, since it's justabout summer, go get your
haircut.
Have a great time.
Catch you in two weeks-ish.
Sure Sounds good to me, I don'tknow when we're airing any of
these, who knows?
Catherine (52:28):
Whenever they get published is when they get
published.
Andrew (52:30):
That's right, what are we calling it?
So what is it?
Wound up penguin, yeah.
So come back next time forepisode four.
Wound up penguin, yeah, theyaired all sorts out of?
Catherine (52:44):
Yeah, they're all out of order.
Yeah, look at the yeah.
Andrew (52:48):
This was technically episode three, I think.
Catherine (52:50):
Yeah, this was technically episode three.
Andrew (52:52):
I think, yeah, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know.
Either way, we'll get to it.
Yes, we will have a great timeeverybody.
We'll talk to you next time.
Bye.
Catherine (53:01):
Bye, bye, bye, bye.
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