March 22, 2024 • 49 mins
Find out more about Sarah and connect to her below:
Linkedin & Instagram
www.sheevolves.community
www.insiderexpeditions.com
www.wonderandwander.com
In this episode of Seen and Heard Podcast, join Prue Aja in a captivating conversation with Sarah Pirie-Nally, a trailblazing entrepreneur and advocate for inclusion. Discover Sarah's journey of challenging corporate norms, empowering her daughters as young entrepreneurs, and fostering a community of women leaders. Tune in for insights on resilience, innovation, and the power of inclusion in business.
Discover how merging passion with purpose can pave the way for your own dreams and inspire others to reach for theirs. Dive deep into essential questions such as:
- How to balance kids and work while running a business?
- How to teach your kids about business?
- How to teach your kids about money, finance, and budgeting?
Embarking on a career that resonates with your core values isn't just fulfilling, it's transformative. Our latest episode features a guest whose eclectic career path is a lesson in weaving personal values into professional endeavors. From recruiting to event design, she's a vanguard for inclusion, diversity, and empowering the underrepresented. Her journey is a mosaic of innovation, advocacy for women's equality, and the art of balancing family with the demands of a career. Tune in to discover how aligning your life's work with your guiding principles can not only pave the way for your own dreams but also inspire others to reach for theirs.
Have you ever imagined what it would be like to merge the worlds of motherhood and corporate leadership? Our guest did more than just imagine; she turned it into her reality. She shares the ingenious concept of a 'reverse maternity leave', how she's empowering working mothers, and the way she's redefining corporate culture. Her personal anecdotes on transitioning from corporate to entrepreneurship are nothing short of inspirational, highlighting the power of self-advocacy and the courage to challenge the status quo.
Raising a new generation of thinkers, doers, and dreamers—our guest doesn't just talk the talk. She's teaching her children the tenets of human-centered design and financial literacy, embedding these critical life skills into their everyday lives. And for the adults? She Evolves retreats beckon, promising a haven for personal growth and female empowerment. With adventures from Mazatlan to Bahrain Bay, it's clear that when passion meets purpose, the ripple effect can transform communities, ignite change, and shape the future one experience at a time.
FREE LIVE MASTERCLASS: Monetise Your Magic
Connect directly via Instagram or Linkedin
To work directly with me, bookings are available at https://www.prueaja.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Prue Aja (00:00):
I can.
Can you hear me?
Yep, looks like a beautifulevening in Melbourne with your
view so nice.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (00:09):
So nice, I've got bad lighting, though, hey.
Prue Aja (00:12):
Yeah, because you kind of want that natural light
coming in on your face, feelingthe shadow.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (00:19):
Is that okay or no?
Prue Aja (00:21):
What you could do is get a whiteboard in front of you
so it bounces back in.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (00:25):
I wish I had that.
See, you're perfect withlighting.
I don't have a whiteboard.
Prue Aja (00:31):
It's all whiteboard.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (00:34):
It's all good .
This is where a podcast alsohas a video and you're like, oh,
I should have given you theheads up today.
Prue Aja (00:45):
So first up, let's just do a little bit of an intro
, because you have had anevolution the last year or two
as well, do you like?
sharing a story, because this um, the podcast is really about
being seen and heard and what ittakes someone to find their
(01:06):
true calling, like remember whatthey came here to do and tap
into their values and whatbrings them joy in life, and
what it took, or what it takesto actually get to that place.
Like I know, you're in a greatplace now doing incredible
things with your business, soI'd love to know and share a
little bit more about that.
I love it.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (01:28):
Well, it's funny because I I feel like I've
pushed myself to stay prettyconnected to my values and what
I kind of love doing my entirecareer, but that's led me into
entirely different places, andso my career is like a wiggly
path, and so is my life, becauseI do follow the nudges and like
(01:50):
listen to the changes that kindof are calling me at any given
time and and then I kind of leaninto whatever that evolution is
.
So, whether that's going intocorporate or then coming out and
owning my own business and thengoing in again and coming out,
or being married and thengetting divorced and then
meeting someone and gettingmarried again, like it's, I just
(02:11):
follow like where my heart iscalling me, but also where my
values are leading me, and thenI get these amazing
opportunities to do some of thecoolest stuff on the planet.
Prue Aja (02:19):
Oh, the coolest stuff ever.
Yeah, can I ask what yourvalues are that are your guiding
force, your compass.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (02:29):
Yeah, I care deeply about people and
inclusion and I'm I've got areally really strong sense of
social justice, like I've alwaysreally cared about making sure
that, like the little peoplehave a voice and that, like
we're thinking about includingand giving opportunities to
people who don't always get them.
So, whether that's through myfirst career in recruitment or
(02:53):
my second career in creating,you know, australia's biggest
innovation festival, Wired forWonder, or women's retreats to
create space for women whoneeded it at the time, or events
and experiences that celebratereally unique souls, and we hold
space for the diversity thatkind of comes with the
(03:14):
experiences that we create.
I really value inclusion, Ireally value diversity, I really
value experience, I valuein-person interaction and I
really value giving people anopportunity to like explore and
then actually create theirdreams.
And, weirdly, whether it wasrecruitment or event design or
(03:38):
chief design officer or whateverkind of roles I've taken, I get
to play within those likespheres really, which is quite
cool.
Prue Aja (03:48):
That is so good, and just to know that it doesn't
really matter what job you'redoing, as long as those values
are in place and it's alignedwith that and how it can be
applied to many different rolesand incorporate in business and
all of that as well.
(04:08):
So tell me a bit about whatyou're actually doing now.
What's the big picture?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (04:14):
Yeah.
So where do I kind of start?
At a global level, I amdesigning events and experiences
that are super transformational, working with insider
expeditions with my amazinghusband, steve.
So we originally started as apartnership between Wonder and
Wanda, which is our kind ofinnovation and growth agency and
(04:36):
insider expeditions, to produceone event and then, before we
knew it, we started producingother events and then we stepped
into the business as the CEOand COO and we're kind of on a
growth partnership experiencewith them right now, which is
just so cool.
You know, you came on one of ouramazing experiences down to
Antarctica with Diplo and Flumeand Oliver Tree and Secular
(04:59):
Sawerth and 150 odd wild,amazing souls who said yes to
adventure and came on thatexperience with us.
We just got back from takinganother 320 people to Antarctica
.
We've got incredible events andexperiences designed and I
think what I love about it is,you know, we were over this side
of the world creatingtransformational retreats and
experiences.
(05:19):
Carl was on the other side ofthe world with insider
expeditions doing the same andwe've sort of seen each other
and gone.
Well, what does it look like ifwe come together and we do feel
better together.
So we get this amazingopportunity to go to the most
beautiful places on the planetwith the most extraordinary
people you could imagine.
But we create not onlytransformation.
We give back, like we createawareness or we're thinking
(05:41):
about consciousness and we'rethinking about the influence
that we have and how we can usethat for good.
So I absolutely love that.
I've also got the she Evolvescommunity, so I still am the CEO
and founder of the she Evolvescommunity and that's, you know,
a women exclusive experience,which is just really important
to me because there's still amassive gap when it comes to
(06:02):
equality for women, and it playsout in really funny or silly
ways, but you know, it can be assimple as when you go into an
actual bank or an insurancecompany or you know even Qantas
I'm dealing with at the momentand I'm trying to change my name
.
And to change my name is one ofthe most difficult like
experiences I've ever had in mywhole entire life.
(06:24):
And you know, it's just, it'sthat inequality that exists
because, you know what, not manymen change their names, so
they're just not thought aboutthat process and it goes for,
you know, health research or allsorts of things where it's like
actually just the bias is there, and it's not necessarily
anyone's fault in particular,but we absolutely have work to
do, and so I am very passionate,as you can hear my voice about
(06:45):
holding a space for what I kindof consider like positive
feminism.
I can't talk about, like I gett-shirts made, you know,
feminists who love willies.
Like we don't have to like, befeminists and hate men.
We can actually be feministsand best just be thinking about
how we are better women and howwe can stand for being the types
of women that you know we wantour daughters to be, that we
(07:07):
want our granddaughters to be,and so that's that space, and
I'm very passionate about that.
And then I'm, you know, a mum.
I've got, you know, five kidsacross two countries and they're
my absolute world, and so Steveand I kind of travel back and
forth and make sure that we'reraising them best we can while
we're doing all this other coolstuff.
Prue Aja (07:29):
I know you've really made dreams become reality, and
not only for you guys, but youdo that for other people.
When you created this trip toAntarctica that I went on, I was
like, what is this Like?
Who creates an event with someof the world's best DJs, health
and wellness experts, where wecan dance and do yoga and tea
(07:51):
ceremony and explore the mostexquisite place on Earth?
Like that's what I was justthought.
Sign me up.
So you are a dream maker.
And from the first moment I metyou, which was actually on a
brand design- mastermind retreatin DD.
(08:11):
Not even six months ago, andlook what has happened in our
lives.
Like that's the thing yourevents are truly transformative,
like I was actually thinkingabout all the amazing things
from just going on that retreatto then going to Antarctica, and
how my life has completelyexpanded to a whole new level
(08:32):
and helped me grow.
But what really stood out to mefrom when I first met you in
Fiji and also what we're talkingabout today, is how you really
include your kids and empoweryour daughters in what you do.
You include them, teach themabout business.
(08:52):
And yeah, tell me a little bitabout how, because what came up
for me is when I started my well, it was probably my second
business and I had my daughterand I was kind of hiding the
fact that I had a child I feltlike, oh, I'm not being
professional enough because ifshe's crying in the background
(09:14):
or I can't let them know.
And it was so ridiculousbecause it was a kid's party
business, so all of my clientswere mums, but this was 14 years
ago, so yeah whereas you weresaying, two weeks after having a
child, you bring them to work.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (09:32):
I brought them to work.
Yeah, I don't know what it wasinside of me, but I just
remember, when I got pregnant,suddenly being aware that every
single person at work that Iknew who had children either
didn't talk about them very muchor just made it completely
invisible.
So they would come to work nineto five.
You know, they would make itvery quiet if they were going to
(09:56):
miss a meeting or something,for like something at school,
like it just was this reallyquiet culture and I just
couldn't understand it at all.
So I got pregnant with Sienna.
I was working at one ofAustralia's largest banks and I
just felt litter to make surethat I was extremely visible as
a mother and as a working mother.
(10:17):
So you know, yes, on maternityleave I made a point of like not
just going back for that onevisit that every mum kind of
does as a ticker box exercise toshow off the baby.
I turned up and like breastfedin the in the, like you know,
front area, because I was like,oh, this is what I come, a mum,
and I'm a working mum.
(10:38):
And then when I returned towork, you know I would bring her
in for meetings and you know Iwould get funny looks and I got
lots of conversations with HRand I just kept challenging it
because I just thought it wasridiculous that I should have
this invisible part of my life.
And you know, for whateverreason, I just had this fire in
(11:00):
my belly about it and when I hadStella, I decided to have a
reverse maternity leave, whichwas a term that I made up.
I was like um, I've never heardof it.
I went into like HR and I waslike, oh hey, so I want to have
a reverse maternity leave and Ihere's how I propose it works.
So I felt really confident as amother and I know not every mum
(11:21):
feels that way, so I certainlydon't.
You know, I'm not sayingeveryone should do this, but I
felt really confident as amother and I also really really
love my work and so I asked themif I could work just after
having the baby and then workfrom home and then around kind
of eight months when I knew thebaby would start to like want me
(11:41):
a bit more and like be a bitactive.
You know, I typically foundlike that seven to like 12
months the hardest, becausethey're eating and they're like
wandering around and I thought Icouldn't think of anything
worse than trying to return towork just as that's happening.
So I said my proposal would beto take four months off then and
they agreed to it and it waslike a big test, right.
(12:01):
So I took two weeks off andthen I was so ready to go back
to it I was just like gagging toget back online and Stella
became my business baby, so Itook her into boardrooms and
took her to meetings and flew upto Sydney for stuff and she was
became like this epic littlebusiness baby who people really
(12:22):
loved having around.
And I still did an amazing jobwhich meant that I proved to the
company that it was possibleand I proved it to myself too,
which was pretty epic, and Inever had to leave my baby, I
had her, I could breastfeed heron demand.
Like just felt like a dream forme to be able to create that
(12:42):
sort of experience for me butalso for my family.
Prue Aja (12:47):
I just love how you have created your own rules and
boundaries in life, especiallyin that corporate world, and you
said that you had some meetingswith HR and some challenges
Like what were some of thesechallenges and how did you get
through them?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (13:04):
Yeah, so, like an example of a challenge,
was being asked to fly out toSydney for a meeting and the
meeting time kept changing and Ihad to keep expressing extra
milk because I was going to begone for longer or not as long.
So I'm there expressing allthis milk and this meeting kept
changing and it was anon-negotiable, mandatory
(13:24):
meeting that I had to be in theoffice for, and then I had to
change my flights because theykept moving it.
So I finally get to the airport.
They've changed it again.
I'm at the airport.
I've got to make my flightearlier.
Like it just was this totalnightmare.
And I finally got to Sydney andI walk into the office and I'm
already tired because of allthis craziness, and they were
like, oh, actually, we've movedit, you know, to a couple of
(13:45):
weeks time.
And I was just like, oh, you'reactually kidding me.
So I'm like my boobs areswollen, I'm, you know,
exhausted.
I've made this huge effort.
And it had been this whole likedon't bring the baby sort of
scenario because it's amandatory in person, no children
meeting.
And it was just one of thosemoments where I was like, yeah,
nah, I'm not going to do this,I'm definitely not going to move
(14:07):
away from what I know works,which is bringing my baby with
me, because then I've got herand I don't need to like stress
or worry.
You know I ended up withmastitis and all sorts of crap
and it's you know these peoplewho had invited me to this
mandatory, no child meetingdidn't give a flying fuck about
whether I was like impacted orwhat the kind of impact was on
(14:28):
me or my family.
And you know it's not that theywere trying to be mean, it's
just that it's just not onpeople's radar.
So the lesson for me was youabsolutely have to advocate for
yourself.
You have to have your ownboundaries.
No is a full sentence, you know, or that's not going to work
for me.
I'm really sorry.
Like it's just.
You know I learned and found myvoice and you know I already
(14:51):
had a voice, but I learned tothat next layer of voice which I
think we kind of find ourvolume, which is part of the
journey.
But I certainly found it thenand I decided it was time for me
to move from intrapreneur toentrepreneur and actually
pitched to the, to the companythat I was working for, to
change my employment agreementfrom a full time permanent
(15:11):
salary to a consultant and theywent for it and I started my own
business and got to create likeall the flexibility in the
world, which is really cool.
Prue Aja (15:23):
Bringing another dream to life.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (15:26):
Yeah, just like going for it.
And then someone says yes toyour dreams, right?
Prue Aja (15:33):
And so, from doing this like, what outcome have you
seen with your girls, withSienna and Stella's today and
business.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (15:42):
I mean, it's epic.
So Sienna was five when shelaunched her first business.
No, glitter, glitter.
She raised two and a halfthousand dollars on Kickstarter
and like, was, you know, in thefront of the papers and was all
her own, just passion project.
And she'd seen enough of she,she'd been to enough design
thinking workshops to be able tofollow a thread.
(16:03):
So we're sitting watching thenews one night and the war was
on and there were refugees andshe was just like, oh, I wanted
to say to help those people, mom.
And I was like, oh, how will wehelp them?
And she was like we could, wecould send them some glitter
because glitter makes me happy.
And I'm like, oh, but that isnot good for the environment.
She's like do you know what?
We need to design some glitter,that's good for the environment
(16:24):
.
And so, like that, sent us offon a little adventure together
and I was really fortunate witha business that I already had,
sienna baby, which is a shoebusiness to know really amazing
people in China, and they put usin touch with some factories
and we got some samples made andoff she went, she designed her
logo and got it done and then,during the pandemic, we wrote a
(16:47):
book.
So there was a lot of feelingsduring the pandemic and I was
studying a diploma in childpsychology and cognitive
behavioral therapy and all thesesorts of diplomas and I'm like,
how can I support my children?
And unpacking and talking abouttheir feelings seem to be the
biggest thing.
So we started doing that andthen the girls and I one night
just like jammed together andwrote a book and we actually got
(17:09):
an illustrator from Ukraine todo the illustrations.
That was a way of sending moneyand supporting people in that
particular time, which wasreally cool for them Because
they were really heightened andaware of that at the time too.
So, yeah, we published myfeelings are not who I am, which
is on Amazon and it's reallycool, really, really cool.
And then, little stale, she waslike I want to do a business,
(17:30):
mum, I want to do something.
So we started playing around atlast.
Last school faith, she tested aproduct and did like a little
bath salts with little toyshidden in them, like a kind of
surprise for the bath.
Oh, I love that so they're veryentrepreneurial and so are my
step-to-step kids, so likethere's nothing bad there at all
(17:51):
and the most lovely thing youknow, in designing she Evolves.
And thinking about creatingthis community and this retreat
and these experiences, I wantedto create a space that could
allow women who felt, you know,like me, where they wanted to be
able to bring their childrenand they wanted to be able to
mix that kind of business andpleasure and family in a
(18:12):
different, modern way.
And so the first one you know,my kids were there Stella stood
on stage and she opened thefirst event and it was just like
unbelievable.
She was six at the time and sherehearsed it for weeks.
God love her.
It was the cutest thing, likeseriously the cutest.
And then the big girls werewalking around taking photos of
(18:34):
everyone and putting them on thewall and they just love being
part of the whole experience.
And the boys too, like theyreally really enjoy being part
of this whole community and thisexperience.
And so that is a legacy for me,because it's not easy for women
to just go I'm just going tobring my kid everywhere and like
start to be bold in the movesthat I make as a career woman.
(18:57):
It's like well, it takes a bitof energy, I think it takes a
bit of support, I think it takesother beings around, of our
like-minded women who arewanting something different and
who kind of stand for change.
So that's what's kind of coolin this space that we're
creating 100%.
Prue Aja (19:16):
Can you tell me a little bit more about the she
Evolves community?
And I know you've got a retreatin Bali and one in Bay at the
end of the year.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (19:26):
Yeah, that's no more Such a cool community,
it's such an epic group of womenbecause, specifically, I've
looked around and there are look, I'm part of a lot of
communities and I pay to be partof a lot of communities because
I see the value of being amember or like being a part of
these different groups, whetherthey're online or in person,
(19:48):
that give you access to womenthat you just wouldn't meet
otherwise, because that's thegoal right.
That's where we met each other.
I got you as a lifelong friendthrough going to retreat.
I would not have met you if Ihadn't posted it, sorry.
So I'm just like so sold on thevalue of these sorts of
experiences and I, years ago,started a community called
(20:12):
Nurture Her.
We sold that for variousreasons and then had a bit of a
white period, and one of thethings that I love about Nurture
Her is that it's for businesswomen.
So it's very simple, it's veryfocused.
I kind of wanted to bring peoplelike my mom and my besties
along to these sorts ofexperiences, and over the years
I've had a lot of notes frompeople saying you know, I've got
(20:35):
your, I've got going to what aserious experience is on my
vision board.
You know, I've produced somepretty outlandish experiences
and so it was kind of cool toknow that that's on people's
vision board.
But when you looked at thewomen, they were not just
business women.
They were either business orcorporate, or stay-at-home moms
or women have chosen not to havechildren, or old women who,
(20:58):
like, know me through theirdaughters, you know.
And so I was like, oh okay, howdo I create something for all
women and be super inclusive andcreate this beautiful space
that's an intergenerationalcommunity, so that we create an
opportunity for women to cometogether and to be really honest
, like it's also for people whohave lost their mom or don't
(21:21):
have aunties or don't havesisters.
So you get this woman tribe,you know.
And yes, we gather and we talkabout like business and
technology and life and scienceand arts and all and all the
cool things that we give lots ofinspiration so that we can gear
up and think about the future.
But that doesn't just have tobe for business people.
Prue Aja (21:42):
And so.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (21:42):
I'm really like passionate about making
sure that we get that diversityand that we get women of all
stages and from all walks oflife, because I believe that's
where the magic happens.
And so far, with 144 womenwho've come to our retreats over
the last couple of years, youknow, 85% of them have made a
(22:02):
new best friend, not just a newfriend like a new best friend,
and I think it was like 94% ofthem have actually reported that
they've experienced significanttransformation or change in
their life, whether that was,you know, a new job or making a
new retirement plan, or takingup a new hobby, or thinking
about their life in a differentway, or starting a new
relationship or ending an oldrelationship.
(22:24):
Like there's been significantand measurable change through
our community and that'ssomething I can guarantee.
Prue Aja (22:31):
Oh, definitely a couple of things there, Like
when you, you know, youmentioned people without mums.
I'm one of those I've never hada mum and I don't really have
many older female women in mylife so to find to be in that
group and also being a singleparent with the daughter as well
, and she's asked to come onretreats, into workshops in the
(22:53):
last couple of years and she'salso had her own little business
things too, and so I'm superexcited to be able to bring her
along and be a part of thatcommunity.
You know, I didn't start goingto retreats and networking
events till I was, you know, mylate 20s and I've developed
lifelong peers and friends fromthat.
She's doing that at 13.
Can you imagine theopportunities that's going to
(23:16):
give her, you know that weren't.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (23:18):
That's not much.
Prue Aja (23:19):
Yeah, like she's really into food and cooking and
so there's probably someonethat has a restaurant or a chef,
but she is working in anamazing restaurant here.
But it just opens your world up.
And when I was at the Fijiretreat, I'm now very closely
connected to three other womenfrom that retreat and we
actually meet every week for azoom.
(23:40):
We've got an accountabilitything and we keep in touch and
we've got each other's back andwe're very open and honest and
vulnerable and that is just soimportant to have people like
that, because your partner oryour best friend or someone that
isn't in that world with you,you can't really share those
things.
So finding people that arereally aligned and where you're
(24:02):
at and developing relationshipsthat you otherwise might not
meet them through your school orgym and that kind of thing,
true.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (24:12):
It's really incredible.
So much of that that can kindof like happen.
Right, you've got destinyobviously that's steering the
pot and making sure that youkind of meet people.
But I do think you have to pushyourself outside of your
comfort zone to truly meet thepeople you're destined to meet.
Like I think some people are alittle bit like oh, just sit
back, I'll meet the people I'mmeant to meet, whereas I
(24:32):
disagree with that.
Every time I push myself outsideof my comfort zone, I meet
someone who I'm like oh my God,you're my soul, family, and I
feel like I'm on this adventureto meet them all and you're one
of them.
Through, like I got you and Iwas like come on, tantan, you go
with me and we're off together.
And it's like I wouldn't havemet you if I didn't kind of do
that.
And if I'm just sitting at homeand I'm clicking in the same
(24:54):
clicks and I'm doing the samething, you're not going to get
those little bonus friends thatyou're meant to find out in the
real world.
You know, like little Eastereggs, go out and find them.
Like.
Prue Aja (25:04):
Definitely.
And what I'm hearing frompeople you know since COVID
times is that people are reallywanting human connection.
They don't want to just zoommeetings anymore.
But there's also this thinggoing oh, I don't really want to
join the local tennis club orthat and also I must admit, I
you know I go to yoga andPilates but there's, there's not
(25:27):
really a community around you.
You go in, you go on your yogamat and then you go and no one's
coming together.
And I think that's what theseretreats and experiences do it
actually brings people togetherproperly, like human touch.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (25:43):
We've got.
We've got to be the sciencethat we kind of use to help
accelerate that Right.
And, and we we know a couple ofrecipes but that help and, and
you know, travel and adventurecertainly helps.
You know, how many people do weknow that went on a kintiki
tour and stayed friends with thepeople?
Or, you know, went off on somelike adventure and met someone
(26:03):
new.
Like you, you do meet friendswhen you're traveling, which is
why I think I love taking peopleto new, new destinations and
then creating that funness andconnection and friendship within
a new environment, because it'sa shared experience, it's
outside of your norm and you'vegot an opportunity to like just
(26:23):
have a really lovely time whileyou're doing your networking and
meeting new people.
And I think the safety of youknow what, if you come along and
have a fairly good time butdon't necessarily click with
that many people, you're notstuck in some tennis club up the
road where you like feelingawkward that you have to keep
going back.
So like, personally I'm, I'm aseven on the Enneagram.
(26:44):
I am like the ultimatecommitment fove.
I'm, if you like, if I am yourfriend.
You know that I'm your friendbecause I could quite easily
just meet a thousand people andbe so happy to meet them, but
like I don't necessarily need togo and call them all every
single day.
You know, that's just not mykind of personality.
So I do design experiences thatwork for me in that I'm like, oh
(27:06):
yeah, we get to meet all thesepeople and like get to know each
other and love each other andthere's no pressure, so it's not
all it's all like you know,like we're not all now having to
like talk to everyone everysingle day, like it's just this
we take the intensity out of itand it's like it's just this
free love not free loving, butlike there's an energy there
(27:27):
that's just like okay, I've gotfreedom to make choices around
the people that I continue toengage with beyond this
experience that makes sense forme and that I've resonated with,
rather than you're all put in aclass and you have to stay
friends for the next five years.
Prue Aja (27:42):
Yeah, it organically and naturally evolves as it goes
.
So I just want to ask you acouple of questions to wrap up.
What advice would you have fora parent business owner to
really balance running theirbusiness and having kids?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (28:00):
Yeah, that's great, right, okay, and I've
done lots of experimentationover the last 12 years so I can
definitely come at this withsome stuff that's worked and
stuff that hasn't.
It doesn't work when you tryand blend everything so it
doesn't work.
When you're just like, oh yeah,I'll just make it, that doesn't
work, it ends up burning youout.
It works when you get reallyclearly defined around what you
(28:23):
can do by who and by when.
And when I say by who, likehaving a team of, whether it's a
couple of virtual people thatyou kind of connect with or a
cleaner that comes in once amonth or once a week that kind
of gives you a hand.
Like identifying all the jobsto be done in your life and then
making sure that you're nottrying to do them all, I think
(28:44):
is like the number one, becauseyou can get caught in a trap of
trying to be all things to allpeople and that's when the
burnout happens.
And do you know what?
This is big advice to when Isolo-parented too, because the
only way I got throughsolo-parenting was going what
right, what are all the jobs tobe done, and which ones can I
actually handle versus whichones do I need a hand with, and
(29:06):
I used to text my dad and belike, oh, I just did a blue job,
you know like took the thingsout, or like cooked food on a
barbecue or whatever, like theblue jobs used to be, and I'd
like celebrate those along theway.
So I don't know, get the jobsto be done, get really clear,
get some help.
The next one is like radicalcompassion and forgiveness,
because you know, when you're abusiness owner who's also a
(29:28):
parent, like there will be ballsthat get dropped and that will
happen on both sides.
It'll happen when youaccidentally miss a triathlon or
a school meeting or something.
And it will also happen if youaccidentally meet a miss a
meeting or like forget to dosomething.
But here's the reality.
You would do those things ifyou were a full-time parent or a
(29:51):
full-time worker, and so thefact that you're actually doing
both is like everyone's going todrop balls, like a stay-at-home
mum occasionally drops a ball,a full-time worker occasionally
drops a ball.
So just like, no, that you'rejust a human.
You're just a human who happensto have responsibilities and I
think bringing compassion aroundthat helps just like normalize
(30:11):
it, and then you kind of go okay, I'm just a human, I don't
necessarily have to be perfectall of the time.
Things are going to happen.
I think that's super importantand I think, finally, like we
have our non-negotiables andthat helps us make sure that
even if you get to a point wherewe've had four kids who've had
a vomit bug or like worksintense and all this stuff's
(30:34):
happening, as long as thosenon-negotiables are happening,
it's like everything's, like theworld's not going to come to an
end.
So that's making sure that wetuck the kids in a bed of a
night and make sure that we readthem the stories during the
week and make sure that we'recooking meals as often as we can
, even if there's kind of chaos,even if it's like as crap as a
(30:57):
spaghetti or whatever, like it'sjust a simple thing, and when
you're kind of doing thoselittle things, everything else
just seems to sort of feel calm.
So, yeah, they're probably thethings that I think I've got so
much more.
We've run so many wildexperiments and Steve and I have
also run a lot of differentexperiments in terms of who
(31:20):
takes the responsibility forwhat role and played, with me
being the breadwinner versus himbeing the breadwinner, him
being a full-time stay-at-homedad, me being a bit of
stay-at-home mum, then bothsharing, and now we're both in
the full hybrid mode again andit's been fascinating to kind of
go through those different rolechanges and really both have to
(31:41):
level up during the experience.
Prue Aja (31:43):
Yeah, actually, would you mind sharing how you guys do
things right now, because youboth live in different countries
and you both love each other'schildren as much as your own,
and the kids love each other andthey were all together for a
few years, so they're already inthe three years, yeah, so we've
been now apart for two months.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (32:03):
So at the beginning of the year we set up
our Melbourne apartment andwe've got shared pasta with the
on both sides of the ditch andso we've got the most phenomenal
burger calendar you've everseen.
And I spend seven days a monthover in New Zealand.
So I get time with his kids andhe spends two weeks across in
Melbourne and we figure out thefinal week which is no kids.
(32:25):
So we figure that one out.
It has been super challenging,but there are a couple of
paradigms that we sort of leanedin and started to challenge
last year which was like what isa family?
How much time do you have tospend together for you to be
okay as a family?
What are the sorts ofconversations that you need to
(32:47):
be holding regularly to ensureeveryone's emotional health is
okay?
How do we show up for eachother when we're not there?
So what are the active serviceor things that we can do to
support one another from a far?
Again, what are ournon-negotiables?
So we got to that whole sevendays in New Zealand, two weeks
(33:10):
in Melbourne, kind of thing,because our non-negotiable was
we want to be spending at leastthree weeks together as husband
and wife while we're parentingin that kind of month, and then
we've had work and travel andthat sort of stuff.
So, like this particular week,we're both solo parenting in
different countries and we didthings like did the shopping
(33:31):
together and like thought aboutwhat meals we're going to cook
together and so like, eventhough you're in different
countries, you're still helpingeach other make choices around,
like what to feed the kids andwhat to do on the weekend, and
like we just today planned areally cool surprise for the
kids in New Zealand becausethey're really missing us right
now.
So we've, like created thiscool opportunity for them.
So, yeah, it just takes a lotof communication and a lot of, I
(33:55):
think, kind of a human-centereddesign.
To me, it's just like who areall the people affected?
How do we make sure that we'rechecking in on them and
understanding, like, what theirneeds are, and then really
designing experiences around,how we sort of support each of
them within their uniqueexperiences, which we're doing.
So it's pretty incredible.
Prue Aja (34:14):
It's incredible that what you were mentioning before
like I'd love to write that downyou could almost create a
course for parents to do thatyeah.
Parents that are even together.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (34:25):
Just like you know, one needs to be met for
kids.
Prue Aja (34:30):
I remember when Mila was a baby.
You don't need to be like therethe whole time, it's actually
about making sure you're givingthem solid play time and really
feeling that bucket for them,because then they feel seen and
heard.
So then they then can go andplay with themselves.
They play their own games andentertain themselves.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (34:48):
So, instead of I love that scene and heard I
think that that's superimportant.
The other day I was reallymissing the Kiwi kids and I
wrote them all a love letter andI FaceTimed them and I read
them the love letters and likeevery single one of them teared
up and like was like I love youso much, thank you so much, and
I was like oh my God, that'ssuch a simple thing that you
just don't think to do forchildren.
(35:09):
But we know that those littlepractices are the things that
actually really hit home andthey absolutely love.
They love when we do loveletters, they love when we do
challenges.
So for Christmas I designed a12 month Wonder and Wanda Family
Challenge and so each monththey open an envelope and it's
got a voucher in there and it'sgot a challenge, and so they're
all in sync around thatparticular challenge and the
(35:32):
present that they get.
So it did two things itminimized the crap that happens
at Christmas, which drives meabsolutely nuts.
And it also kept us connected asa family.
Like their challenge this monthis a creativity challenge.
They've got $40 each to spendon craft supplies to think about
designing something and they'vealready started talking about
it and like trying to figure outwhat they do and it's like
(35:55):
common thing to focus on eachmonth, which has just been
awesome.
And it seems to be working,which is great.
Prue Aja (36:01):
And keeps them connected?
Can you please write a book andcreate a course about this
unbelievable knowledge andexperience and the way that you
are raising your kids?
I'm very inspired by it.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (36:16):
Thank you.
I'm so lucky to be a mama.
Prue Aja (36:21):
One other thing I wanted to ask you was maybe it's
a bit too much of a bigquestion, but I'll just try it
Like how do you teach your kidsabout business and money?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (36:33):
Oh no, this is a great question because it's
something we think about a lot.
I love it.
So I'm a human-centered designexpert.
I've been doing it and teachingit for the last 12 years.
I wrote an MBA in designthinking for RMIT University.
I've helped contribute to thepostgrading human potential for
a digital economy with AcademyEX.
(36:53):
It's something that I'm very,very passionate about.
So my approach to teaching themabout business is both through
the exposure of having themaround and having them part of
things.
We ask them to help us makedecisions.
We give them, like, differentscenarios and get them to kind
of play with that.
But I've taught all of our kidsdesign thinking so they all
(37:14):
know how to go through a designthinking process, because I
think that's one of the mostphenomenal tools that we can
give our children is how tosolve an epic problem, like, how
do you solve a wicked problem?
Well, you use a framework forsolving wicked problems.
So that's number one With money.
This year we've set it's prettycool actually so we use an app
called Family Wall and again,this is like an epic, epic tool
(37:37):
for families, like whether thisis a family who's together or
living in different places.
So we have set up a familybudget and the family budget
we've got like a kid's budgetand we basically track what they
have spent for the year.
So they got given a certainbudget for clothes, a certain
(37:58):
budget for toys and a certainbudget for what we called like
their connection flight.
So they each got a flight tomake sure that they can stay
connected to the family, so theycan execute that at any point
in the year.
And you should have seen therelief on their little faces
when they knew that they coulddo that.
It's like the cutest thingyou've ever seen, and the
(38:19):
greatest thing about that is wehave with this budget and
sitting them down and explaininghow that all works, we've
empowered them to have adifferent conversation.
So now when we go shopping,they look at something and
they'll be like I really likethis, I really want it, I think
I need it.
So we talked about wants andneeds, but you've also got to
have the budget for it.
So that final part is a partthat I think if every family
(38:42):
started so yeah, you need themonce a great, but do you have
the budget for it?
Set your kids the budget, givethem a budget and give them an
annual budget that they have tomanage with it.
So our kids have got, you know,super fortunate and also trying
to keep them like clever andthrifty, so they get a certain
amount.
Each Lola's already spent halfof hers.
Sienna's spent a quarter ofhers.
(39:02):
Stella's spent 30%.
Luke has only spent 6% of hisclothing budget.
Sienna's spent 10%.
But we check in on a regularbasis and let them know like,
right, this is what you spent ofthis night, this is what's left
.
So we're there on the weekendand they'll be like, oh, that I
really, I really want that.
I really like that.
Actually, I've got the budgetfor that so I can make a choice,
my own choice, with this moneythat I've got access to to get
(39:25):
that.
And I've just watched them overthe last few months and that
empowerment around I actuallyknow what I can and can't do
within my budget is definitelyempowering them to think
differently about their moneyand about what they buy and who
they buy it for, and I really Ilove that.
I absolutely love that.
Prue Aja (39:46):
I think it's not just kids that need that.
I need that, yeah, and that istotally a program that could be
implemented into schools,because I feel like that's one
of the biggest fault in theschooling system is we're not
taught these basic things liketax and money and how to manage
our money.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (40:04):
Probably Absolutely, and you know, I've
got the fortune of, you know, 12years in banking and seeing all
of the research and seeing allthe programs being built, and I
have sort of taken all of thoselessons and applied what I think
, from a human-centered designperspective, would actually work
with my family, and so it'sbeen cool to actually run the
experiment and watch it work.
I'm like, oh my goodness, Ifeel so good knowing that I
(40:27):
actually feel like I'm spoilingmy kids more than ever, but
they're all on budget, and soit's this lovely feeling of like
we've set a family budget,we've all signed up for it, but
we're all managing within it.
So, again, that's a really coolthing to be able to do across
the two countries with all thekids, everyone kind of coming
together.
It's a good vibe.
Prue Aja (40:47):
Incredible.
Can you be my, like my coachfor being a good mom.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (40:53):
Oh, that's so sweet.
You're an amazing mother.
I loved all our chats aboutmothering together when we're in
Antarctica, because it's a rolethat, like everyone, just
expects you to know how tonaturally do, like it's just
built into your genes and yourDNA.
And I think that's partiallytrue.
But I also think we of course,want the best for our children,
(41:13):
but we don't always know whatthe best like is, and I had the
most fascinating conversationwith the kids yesterday You're
going to laugh so much.
So they were out for coffeebefore school and they were like
, do you remember that time thatLuca ran out the road and like
you were really mad?
Because you were like pleasedon't run out the road without
telling me, you know, telling meand you gave him a behavioral
(41:36):
consequence of like no devicetime for an hour.
They were like that was toosoft, like that needed at least
three days, and I was like, oh,ok, tell me, where else have I
been too soft?
And they were like, oh, do youremember when, like, the kids
chased the chickens down thedriveway?
And you were like you shouldn'tchase the chickens down the
driveway, because what if theywere on the road?
And you were like, come on,guys, you got to be able to
(41:57):
listen.
And they didn't listen and theydid this again and then you
said to them again it was likeno sewing for a day.
It was like they love sewing.
So I was still being reallyharsh and they were like again,
man, too soft.
And I just think like we're allafraid of upsetting our children
and we never want to hurt them,but they want us to give them
structure and routines andguidelines and boundaries.
(42:19):
And you know, the budget is oneexample of like that's what
you've got to spend, that's allyou've got to spend.
And it's like the behaviors isthe other one.
So Steve and I introduced thiswhole behavioral consequence and
it's like you've got choices,you make choices, but if you
make a poor choice then there'sa behavioral consequence.
So you know that might be anhour without device time or a
(42:41):
day without sewing or somethinglike that.
Apparently that's too soft, weneed to kind of ramp it up.
But we just noticed, especiallywith five kids under one roof,
they responded exceptionallywell to that really clear
guidance around.
Well, there's a behavioralconsequence.
And they get to a point wherethey're like, oh, there's going
to be a behavioral consequencefor that choice.
(43:01):
And then you're like, yeah,sorry.
And you're like, fair enough.
Prue Aja (43:06):
I'm curious, if you would ask them to create, what
the consequence would be.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (43:12):
Yeah, we did that recently and we also asked
them to last holidays set theguidelines.
So we just said to them you letus know how you want to manage
this holidays.
They went downstairs, all fiveof them sat down on the floor,
created a whole chart and it wasall the things that they needed
to do to unlock points.
And then they created a pointschart and it was all gamified.
(43:33):
It was like you get 10 points,then you get this, then you get
this, then you get this, and itladded all the way up to like 80
points, and 80 points was 80bucks to spend on a new outfit.
You know, like it was prettydetailed and it was things like
you have to make your bed everyday, you can't leave toothpaste
on the sink, you can't pee onthe toilet seat, you've got to
have stuck the dishwasher,you've got to cook a meal Like
it was pretty detailed.
(43:54):
They came up with this entirething, wow.
And then they governed it Likeit was extraordinary.
We were just like every singleday.
Their bedroom was pristine,like military pristine, five
kids in one kind of den areawith bunk beds and stuff and
they kept it like meters of pinand they just all unlocked so
many points and we were, likeyou know, often parents if they
(44:17):
needed all the designing.
Prue Aja (44:18):
But kids are capable of designing really great
systems 100%, and you know,imagine this going into
government and our country'sbeen run like this.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (44:29):
I know that's like maybe people are actually
capable of making better choicesfor themselves.
You know, I mean and that's myfirmest belief as a
human-centered designer like askthe people, what do the people
want, what do they need?
You know, like, and of courseyou watch their behavior and
actually have to do theobserving as well.
But like, yeah, of course youcan start with what's going to
(44:52):
actually work for you.
It's an interesting way to kindof parent and leave 100%.
Prue Aja (44:58):
Well, you have just totally inspired and motivated
me.
I haven't got kids, but I'vegot two dogs now that have come
in and gone.
Can you feed me?
I'm going to wrap it up, thenI'm going to share info about
the she Evolves community.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (45:13):
Yeah, amazing .
Prue Aja (45:15):
Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or
talk about as well?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (45:21):
Oh, we've got actually a really amazing
experience that's coming up withthe solar eclipse in Mazatlan
in Mexico and there'll be acharter flight out of LAX,
return flights, an amazingeclipse experience.
I don't know if you, listening,have ever witnessed a solar
eclipse, but every four minutesand 20 seconds of totality and I
(45:42):
am thinking about going.
But regardless, the team haveput together the most
extraordinary experience andit's well worth checking out.
But yeah, insider expeditions,we've got some really
extraordinary experiences.
Our next retreat for sheEvolves is in Bahrain Bay in
August for the 22nd to the 24th.
We've got an add on day thatpeople can add on if they feel
(46:02):
like having an extra day, butit's going to be so much fun and
my girls will be there too, soit's going to be a lot of fun.
Prue Aja (46:09):
And I'll be there with Myla too.
I'm just going to quickly check, because I did ask my community
, our community if they had anyquestions about what we were
chatting about.
I'll quickly see if there wereno questions.
(46:30):
Probably not the best time Iasked it five minutes before we
started, so we're not the besttiming.
But it's so lovely to chat withyou and I really hope that
people will get something out oflistening to this and I'm sure
they're going to want to know alot more about how much of an
incredible parent you are andwhat you do as well, and you're
really just creating a beautifulnext generation.
(46:53):
And yeah, so you were verylucky aren't we?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (46:58):
Yeah, no-transcript.
I can.
Can you hear me?
Yep, looks like a beautifulevening in Melbourne with your
view so nice.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (00:09):
So nice, I've got bad lighting, though, hey.
Prue Aja (00:12):
Yeah, because you kind of want that natural light
coming in on your face, feelingthe shadow.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (00:19):
Is that okay or no?
Prue Aja (00:21):
What you could do is get a whiteboard in front of you
so it bounces back in.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (00:25):
I wish I had that.
See, you're perfect withlighting.
I don't have a whiteboard.
Prue Aja (00:31):
It's all whiteboard.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (00:34):
It's all good .
This is where a podcast alsohas a video and you're like, oh,
I should have given you theheads up today.
Prue Aja (00:45):
So first up, let's just do a little bit of an intro
, because you have had anevolution the last year or two
as well, do you like?
sharing a story, because this um, the podcast is really about
being seen and heard and what ittakes someone to find their
(01:06):
true calling, like remember whatthey came here to do and tap
into their values and whatbrings them joy in life, and
what it took, or what it takesto actually get to that place.
Like I know, you're in a greatplace now doing incredible
things with your business, soI'd love to know and share a
little bit more about that.
I love it.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (01:28):
Well, it's funny because I I feel like I've
pushed myself to stay prettyconnected to my values and what
I kind of love doing my entirecareer, but that's led me into
entirely different places, andso my career is like a wiggly
path, and so is my life, becauseI do follow the nudges and like
(01:50):
listen to the changes that kindof are calling me at any given
time and and then I kind of leaninto whatever that evolution is
.
So, whether that's going intocorporate or then coming out and
owning my own business and thengoing in again and coming out,
or being married and thengetting divorced and then
meeting someone and gettingmarried again, like it's, I just
(02:11):
follow like where my heart iscalling me, but also where my
values are leading me, and thenI get these amazing
opportunities to do some of thecoolest stuff on the planet.
Prue Aja (02:19):
Oh, the coolest stuff ever.
Yeah, can I ask what yourvalues are that are your guiding
force, your compass.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (02:29):
Yeah, I care deeply about people and
inclusion and I'm I've got areally really strong sense of
social justice, like I've alwaysreally cared about making sure
that, like the little peoplehave a voice and that, like
we're thinking about includingand giving opportunities to
people who don't always get them.
So, whether that's through myfirst career in recruitment or
(02:53):
my second career in creating,you know, australia's biggest
innovation festival, Wired forWonder, or women's retreats to
create space for women whoneeded it at the time, or events
and experiences that celebratereally unique souls, and we hold
space for the diversity thatkind of comes with the
(03:14):
experiences that we create.
I really value inclusion, Ireally value diversity, I really
value experience, I valuein-person interaction and I
really value giving people anopportunity to like explore and
then actually create theirdreams.
And, weirdly, whether it wasrecruitment or event design or
(03:38):
chief design officer or whateverkind of roles I've taken, I get
to play within those likespheres really, which is quite
cool.
Prue Aja (03:48):
That is so good, and just to know that it doesn't
really matter what job you'redoing, as long as those values
are in place and it's alignedwith that and how it can be
applied to many different rolesand incorporate in business and
all of that as well.
(04:08):
So tell me a bit about whatyou're actually doing now.
What's the big picture?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (04:14):
Yeah.
So where do I kind of start?
At a global level, I amdesigning events and experiences
that are super transformational, working with insider
expeditions with my amazinghusband, steve.
So we originally started as apartnership between Wonder and
Wanda, which is our kind ofinnovation and growth agency and
(04:36):
insider expeditions, to produceone event and then, before we
knew it, we started producingother events and then we stepped
into the business as the CEOand COO and we're kind of on a
growth partnership experiencewith them right now, which is
just so cool.
You know, you came on one of ouramazing experiences down to
Antarctica with Diplo and Flumeand Oliver Tree and Secular
(04:59):
Sawerth and 150 odd wild,amazing souls who said yes to
adventure and came on thatexperience with us.
We just got back from takinganother 320 people to Antarctica
.
We've got incredible events andexperiences designed and I
think what I love about it is,you know, we were over this side
of the world creatingtransformational retreats and
experiences.
(05:19):
Carl was on the other side ofthe world with insider
expeditions doing the same andwe've sort of seen each other
and gone.
Well, what does it look like ifwe come together and we do feel
better together.
So we get this amazingopportunity to go to the most
beautiful places on the planetwith the most extraordinary
people you could imagine.
But we create not onlytransformation.
We give back, like we createawareness or we're thinking
(05:41):
about consciousness and we'rethinking about the influence
that we have and how we can usethat for good.
So I absolutely love that.
I've also got the she Evolvescommunity, so I still am the CEO
and founder of the she Evolvescommunity and that's, you know,
a women exclusive experience,which is just really important
to me because there's still amassive gap when it comes to
(06:02):
equality for women, and it playsout in really funny or silly
ways, but you know, it can be assimple as when you go into an
actual bank or an insurancecompany or you know even Qantas
I'm dealing with at the momentand I'm trying to change my name
.
And to change my name is one ofthe most difficult like
experiences I've ever had in mywhole entire life.
(06:24):
And you know, it's just, it'sthat inequality that exists
because, you know what, not manymen change their names, so
they're just not thought aboutthat process and it goes for,
you know, health research or allsorts of things where it's like
actually just the bias is there, and it's not necessarily
anyone's fault in particular,but we absolutely have work to
do, and so I am very passionate,as you can hear my voice about
(06:45):
holding a space for what I kindof consider like positive
feminism.
I can't talk about, like I gett-shirts made, you know,
feminists who love willies.
Like we don't have to like, befeminists and hate men.
We can actually be feministsand best just be thinking about
how we are better women and howwe can stand for being the types
of women that you know we wantour daughters to be, that we
(07:07):
want our granddaughters to be,and so that's that space, and
I'm very passionate about that.
And then I'm, you know, a mum.
I've got, you know, five kidsacross two countries and they're
my absolute world, and so Steveand I kind of travel back and
forth and make sure that we'reraising them best we can while
we're doing all this other coolstuff.
Prue Aja (07:29):
I know you've really made dreams become reality, and
not only for you guys, but youdo that for other people.
When you created this trip toAntarctica that I went on, I was
like, what is this Like?
Who creates an event with someof the world's best DJs, health
and wellness experts, where wecan dance and do yoga and tea
(07:51):
ceremony and explore the mostexquisite place on Earth?
Like that's what I was justthought.
Sign me up.
So you are a dream maker.
And from the first moment I metyou, which was actually on a
brand design- mastermind retreatin DD.
(08:11):
Not even six months ago, andlook what has happened in our
lives.
Like that's the thing yourevents are truly transformative,
like I was actually thinkingabout all the amazing things
from just going on that retreatto then going to Antarctica, and
how my life has completelyexpanded to a whole new level
(08:32):
and helped me grow.
But what really stood out to mefrom when I first met you in
Fiji and also what we're talkingabout today, is how you really
include your kids and empoweryour daughters in what you do.
You include them, teach themabout business.
(08:52):
And yeah, tell me a little bitabout how, because what came up
for me is when I started my well, it was probably my second
business and I had my daughterand I was kind of hiding the
fact that I had a child I feltlike, oh, I'm not being
professional enough because ifshe's crying in the background
(09:14):
or I can't let them know.
And it was so ridiculousbecause it was a kid's party
business, so all of my clientswere mums, but this was 14 years
ago, so yeah whereas you weresaying, two weeks after having a
child, you bring them to work.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (09:32):
I brought them to work.
Yeah, I don't know what it wasinside of me, but I just
remember, when I got pregnant,suddenly being aware that every
single person at work that Iknew who had children either
didn't talk about them very muchor just made it completely
invisible.
So they would come to work nineto five.
You know, they would make itvery quiet if they were going to
(09:56):
miss a meeting or something,for like something at school,
like it just was this reallyquiet culture and I just
couldn't understand it at all.
So I got pregnant with Sienna.
I was working at one ofAustralia's largest banks and I
just felt litter to make surethat I was extremely visible as
a mother and as a working mother.
(10:17):
So you know, yes, on maternityleave I made a point of like not
just going back for that onevisit that every mum kind of
does as a ticker box exercise toshow off the baby.
I turned up and like breastfedin the in the, like you know,
front area, because I was like,oh, this is what I come, a mum,
and I'm a working mum.
(10:38):
And then when I returned towork, you know I would bring her
in for meetings and you know Iwould get funny looks and I got
lots of conversations with HRand I just kept challenging it
because I just thought it wasridiculous that I should have
this invisible part of my life.
And you know, for whateverreason, I just had this fire in
(11:00):
my belly about it and when I hadStella, I decided to have a
reverse maternity leave, whichwas a term that I made up.
I was like um, I've never heardof it.
I went into like HR and I waslike, oh hey, so I want to have
a reverse maternity leave and Ihere's how I propose it works.
So I felt really confident as amother and I know not every mum
(11:21):
feels that way, so I certainlydon't.
You know, I'm not sayingeveryone should do this, but I
felt really confident as amother and I also really really
love my work and so I asked themif I could work just after
having the baby and then workfrom home and then around kind
of eight months when I knew thebaby would start to like want me
(11:41):
a bit more and like be a bitactive.
You know, I typically foundlike that seven to like 12
months the hardest, becausethey're eating and they're like
wandering around and I thought Icouldn't think of anything
worse than trying to return towork just as that's happening.
So I said my proposal would beto take four months off then and
they agreed to it and it waslike a big test, right.
(12:01):
So I took two weeks off andthen I was so ready to go back
to it I was just like gagging toget back online and Stella
became my business baby, so Itook her into boardrooms and
took her to meetings and flew upto Sydney for stuff and she was
became like this epic littlebusiness baby who people really
(12:22):
loved having around.
And I still did an amazing jobwhich meant that I proved to the
company that it was possibleand I proved it to myself too,
which was pretty epic, and Inever had to leave my baby, I
had her, I could breastfeed heron demand.
Like just felt like a dream forme to be able to create that
(12:42):
sort of experience for me butalso for my family.
Prue Aja (12:47):
I just love how you have created your own rules and
boundaries in life, especiallyin that corporate world, and you
said that you had some meetingswith HR and some challenges
Like what were some of thesechallenges and how did you get
through them?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (13:04):
Yeah, so, like an example of a challenge,
was being asked to fly out toSydney for a meeting and the
meeting time kept changing and Ihad to keep expressing extra
milk because I was going to begone for longer or not as long.
So I'm there expressing allthis milk and this meeting kept
changing and it was anon-negotiable, mandatory
(13:24):
meeting that I had to be in theoffice for, and then I had to
change my flights because theykept moving it.
So I finally get to the airport.
They've changed it again.
I'm at the airport.
I've got to make my flightearlier.
Like it just was this totalnightmare.
And I finally got to Sydney andI walk into the office and I'm
already tired because of allthis craziness, and they were
like, oh, actually, we've movedit, you know, to a couple of
(13:45):
weeks time.
And I was just like, oh, you'reactually kidding me.
So I'm like my boobs areswollen, I'm, you know,
exhausted.
I've made this huge effort.
And it had been this whole likedon't bring the baby sort of
scenario because it's amandatory in person, no children
meeting.
And it was just one of thosemoments where I was like, yeah,
nah, I'm not going to do this,I'm definitely not going to move
(14:07):
away from what I know works,which is bringing my baby with
me, because then I've got herand I don't need to like stress
or worry.
You know I ended up withmastitis and all sorts of crap
and it's you know these peoplewho had invited me to this
mandatory, no child meetingdidn't give a flying fuck about
whether I was like impacted orwhat the kind of impact was on
(14:28):
me or my family.
And you know it's not that theywere trying to be mean, it's
just that it's just not onpeople's radar.
So the lesson for me was youabsolutely have to advocate for
yourself.
You have to have your ownboundaries.
No is a full sentence, you know, or that's not going to work
for me.
I'm really sorry.
Like it's just.
You know I learned and found myvoice and you know I already
(14:51):
had a voice, but I learned tothat next layer of voice which I
think we kind of find ourvolume, which is part of the
journey.
But I certainly found it thenand I decided it was time for me
to move from intrapreneur toentrepreneur and actually
pitched to the, to the companythat I was working for, to
change my employment agreementfrom a full time permanent
(15:11):
salary to a consultant and theywent for it and I started my own
business and got to create likeall the flexibility in the
world, which is really cool.
Prue Aja (15:23):
Bringing another dream to life.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (15:26):
Yeah, just like going for it.
And then someone says yes toyour dreams, right?
Prue Aja (15:33):
And so, from doing this like, what outcome have you
seen with your girls, withSienna and Stella's today and
business.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (15:42):
I mean, it's epic.
So Sienna was five when shelaunched her first business.
No, glitter, glitter.
She raised two and a halfthousand dollars on Kickstarter
and like, was, you know, in thefront of the papers and was all
her own, just passion project.
And she'd seen enough of she,she'd been to enough design
thinking workshops to be able tofollow a thread.
(16:03):
So we're sitting watching thenews one night and the war was
on and there were refugees andshe was just like, oh, I wanted
to say to help those people, mom.
And I was like, oh, how will wehelp them?
And she was like we could, wecould send them some glitter
because glitter makes me happy.
And I'm like, oh, but that isnot good for the environment.
She's like do you know what?
We need to design some glitter,that's good for the environment
(16:24):
.
And so, like that, sent us offon a little adventure together
and I was really fortunate witha business that I already had,
sienna baby, which is a shoebusiness to know really amazing
people in China, and they put usin touch with some factories
and we got some samples made andoff she went, she designed her
logo and got it done and then,during the pandemic, we wrote a
(16:47):
book.
So there was a lot of feelingsduring the pandemic and I was
studying a diploma in childpsychology and cognitive
behavioral therapy and all thesesorts of diplomas and I'm like,
how can I support my children?
And unpacking and talking abouttheir feelings seem to be the
biggest thing.
So we started doing that andthen the girls and I one night
just like jammed together andwrote a book and we actually got
(17:09):
an illustrator from Ukraine todo the illustrations.
That was a way of sending moneyand supporting people in that
particular time, which wasreally cool for them Because
they were really heightened andaware of that at the time too.
So, yeah, we published myfeelings are not who I am, which
is on Amazon and it's reallycool, really, really cool.
And then, little stale, she waslike I want to do a business,
(17:30):
mum, I want to do something.
So we started playing around atlast.
Last school faith, she tested aproduct and did like a little
bath salts with little toyshidden in them, like a kind of
surprise for the bath.
Oh, I love that so they're veryentrepreneurial and so are my
step-to-step kids, so likethere's nothing bad there at all
(17:51):
and the most lovely thing youknow, in designing she Evolves.
And thinking about creatingthis community and this retreat
and these experiences, I wantedto create a space that could
allow women who felt, you know,like me, where they wanted to be
able to bring their childrenand they wanted to be able to
mix that kind of business andpleasure and family in a
(18:12):
different, modern way.
And so the first one you know,my kids were there Stella stood
on stage and she opened thefirst event and it was just like
unbelievable.
She was six at the time and sherehearsed it for weeks.
God love her.
It was the cutest thing, likeseriously the cutest.
And then the big girls werewalking around taking photos of
(18:34):
everyone and putting them on thewall and they just love being
part of the whole experience.
And the boys too, like theyreally really enjoy being part
of this whole community and thisexperience.
And so that is a legacy for me,because it's not easy for women
to just go I'm just going tobring my kid everywhere and like
start to be bold in the movesthat I make as a career woman.
(18:57):
It's like well, it takes a bitof energy, I think it takes a
bit of support, I think it takesother beings around, of our
like-minded women who arewanting something different and
who kind of stand for change.
So that's what's kind of coolin this space that we're
creating 100%.
Prue Aja (19:16):
Can you tell me a little bit more about the she
Evolves community?
And I know you've got a retreatin Bali and one in Bay at the
end of the year.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (19:26):
Yeah, that's no more Such a cool community,
it's such an epic group of womenbecause, specifically, I've
looked around and there are look, I'm part of a lot of
communities and I pay to be partof a lot of communities because
I see the value of being amember or like being a part of
these different groups, whetherthey're online or in person,
(19:48):
that give you access to womenthat you just wouldn't meet
otherwise, because that's thegoal right.
That's where we met each other.
I got you as a lifelong friendthrough going to retreat.
I would not have met you if Ihadn't posted it, sorry.
So I'm just like so sold on thevalue of these sorts of
experiences and I, years ago,started a community called
(20:12):
Nurture Her.
We sold that for variousreasons and then had a bit of a
white period, and one of thethings that I love about Nurture
Her is that it's for businesswomen.
So it's very simple, it's veryfocused.
I kind of wanted to bring peoplelike my mom and my besties
along to these sorts ofexperiences, and over the years
I've had a lot of notes frompeople saying you know, I've got
(20:35):
your, I've got going to what aserious experience is on my
vision board.
You know, I've produced somepretty outlandish experiences
and so it was kind of cool toknow that that's on people's
vision board.
But when you looked at thewomen, they were not just
business women.
They were either business orcorporate, or stay-at-home moms
or women have chosen not to havechildren, or old women who,
(20:58):
like, know me through theirdaughters, you know.
And so I was like, oh okay, howdo I create something for all
women and be super inclusive andcreate this beautiful space
that's an intergenerationalcommunity, so that we create an
opportunity for women to cometogether and to be really honest
, like it's also for people whohave lost their mom or don't
(21:21):
have aunties or don't havesisters.
So you get this woman tribe,you know.
And yes, we gather and we talkabout like business and
technology and life and scienceand arts and all and all the
cool things that we give lots ofinspiration so that we can gear
up and think about the future.
But that doesn't just have tobe for business people.
Prue Aja (21:42):
And so.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (21:42):
I'm really like passionate about making
sure that we get that diversityand that we get women of all
stages and from all walks oflife, because I believe that's
where the magic happens.
And so far, with 144 womenwho've come to our retreats over
the last couple of years, youknow, 85% of them have made a
(22:02):
new best friend, not just a newfriend like a new best friend,
and I think it was like 94% ofthem have actually reported that
they've experienced significanttransformation or change in
their life, whether that was,you know, a new job or making a
new retirement plan, or takingup a new hobby, or thinking
about their life in a differentway, or starting a new
relationship or ending an oldrelationship.
(22:24):
Like there's been significantand measurable change through
our community and that'ssomething I can guarantee.
Prue Aja (22:31):
Oh, definitely a couple of things there, Like
when you, you know, youmentioned people without mums.
I'm one of those I've never hada mum and I don't really have
many older female women in mylife so to find to be in that
group and also being a singleparent with the daughter as well
, and she's asked to come onretreats, into workshops in the
(22:53):
last couple of years and she'salso had her own little business
things too, and so I'm superexcited to be able to bring her
along and be a part of thatcommunity.
You know, I didn't start goingto retreats and networking
events till I was, you know, mylate 20s and I've developed
lifelong peers and friends fromthat.
She's doing that at 13.
Can you imagine theopportunities that's going to
(23:16):
give her, you know that weren't.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (23:18):
That's not much.
Prue Aja (23:19):
Yeah, like she's really into food and cooking and
so there's probably someonethat has a restaurant or a chef,
but she is working in anamazing restaurant here.
But it just opens your world up.
And when I was at the Fijiretreat, I'm now very closely
connected to three other womenfrom that retreat and we
actually meet every week for azoom.
(23:40):
We've got an accountabilitything and we keep in touch and
we've got each other's back andwe're very open and honest and
vulnerable and that is just soimportant to have people like
that, because your partner oryour best friend or someone that
isn't in that world with you,you can't really share those
things.
So finding people that arereally aligned and where you're
(24:02):
at and developing relationshipsthat you otherwise might not
meet them through your school orgym and that kind of thing,
true.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (24:12):
It's really incredible.
So much of that that can kindof like happen.
Right, you've got destinyobviously that's steering the
pot and making sure that youkind of meet people.
But I do think you have to pushyourself outside of your
comfort zone to truly meet thepeople you're destined to meet.
Like I think some people are alittle bit like oh, just sit
back, I'll meet the people I'mmeant to meet, whereas I
(24:32):
disagree with that.
Every time I push myself outsideof my comfort zone, I meet
someone who I'm like oh my God,you're my soul, family, and I
feel like I'm on this adventureto meet them all and you're one
of them.
Through, like I got you and Iwas like come on, tantan, you go
with me and we're off together.
And it's like I wouldn't havemet you if I didn't kind of do
that.
And if I'm just sitting at homeand I'm clicking in the same
(24:54):
clicks and I'm doing the samething, you're not going to get
those little bonus friends thatyou're meant to find out in the
real world.
You know, like little Eastereggs, go out and find them.
Like.
Prue Aja (25:04):
Definitely.
And what I'm hearing frompeople you know since COVID
times is that people are reallywanting human connection.
They don't want to just zoommeetings anymore.
But there's also this thinggoing oh, I don't really want to
join the local tennis club orthat and also I must admit, I
you know I go to yoga andPilates but there's, there's not
(25:27):
really a community around you.
You go in, you go on your yogamat and then you go and no one's
coming together.
And I think that's what theseretreats and experiences do it
actually brings people togetherproperly, like human touch.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (25:43):
We've got.
We've got to be the sciencethat we kind of use to help
accelerate that Right.
And, and we we know a couple ofrecipes but that help and, and
you know, travel and adventurecertainly helps.
You know, how many people do weknow that went on a kintiki
tour and stayed friends with thepeople?
Or, you know, went off on somelike adventure and met someone
(26:03):
new.
Like you, you do meet friendswhen you're traveling, which is
why I think I love taking peopleto new, new destinations and
then creating that funness andconnection and friendship within
a new environment, because it'sa shared experience, it's
outside of your norm and you'vegot an opportunity to like just
(26:23):
have a really lovely time whileyou're doing your networking and
meeting new people.
And I think the safety of youknow what, if you come along and
have a fairly good time butdon't necessarily click with
that many people, you're notstuck in some tennis club up the
road where you like feelingawkward that you have to keep
going back.
So like, personally I'm, I'm aseven on the Enneagram.
(26:44):
I am like the ultimatecommitment fove.
I'm, if you like, if I am yourfriend.
You know that I'm your friendbecause I could quite easily
just meet a thousand people andbe so happy to meet them, but
like I don't necessarily need togo and call them all every
single day.
You know, that's just not mykind of personality.
So I do design experiences thatwork for me in that I'm like, oh
(27:06):
yeah, we get to meet all thesepeople and like get to know each
other and love each other andthere's no pressure, so it's not
all it's all like you know,like we're not all now having to
like talk to everyone everysingle day, like it's just this
we take the intensity out of itand it's like it's just this
free love not free loving, butlike there's an energy there
(27:27):
that's just like okay, I've gotfreedom to make choices around
the people that I continue toengage with beyond this
experience that makes sense forme and that I've resonated with,
rather than you're all put in aclass and you have to stay
friends for the next five years.
Prue Aja (27:42):
Yeah, it organically and naturally evolves as it goes
.
So I just want to ask you acouple of questions to wrap up.
What advice would you have fora parent business owner to
really balance running theirbusiness and having kids?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (28:00):
Yeah, that's great, right, okay, and I've
done lots of experimentationover the last 12 years so I can
definitely come at this withsome stuff that's worked and
stuff that hasn't.
It doesn't work when you tryand blend everything so it
doesn't work.
When you're just like, oh yeah,I'll just make it, that doesn't
work, it ends up burning youout.
It works when you get reallyclearly defined around what you
(28:23):
can do by who and by when.
And when I say by who, likehaving a team of, whether it's a
couple of virtual people thatyou kind of connect with or a
cleaner that comes in once amonth or once a week that kind
of gives you a hand.
Like identifying all the jobsto be done in your life and then
making sure that you're nottrying to do them all, I think
(28:44):
is like the number one, becauseyou can get caught in a trap of
trying to be all things to allpeople and that's when the
burnout happens.
And do you know what?
This is big advice to when Isolo-parented too, because the
only way I got throughsolo-parenting was going what
right, what are all the jobs tobe done, and which ones can I
actually handle versus whichones do I need a hand with, and
(29:06):
I used to text my dad and belike, oh, I just did a blue job,
you know like took the thingsout, or like cooked food on a
barbecue or whatever, like theblue jobs used to be, and I'd
like celebrate those along theway.
So I don't know, get the jobsto be done, get really clear,
get some help.
The next one is like radicalcompassion and forgiveness,
because you know, when you're abusiness owner who's also a
(29:28):
parent, like there will be ballsthat get dropped and that will
happen on both sides.
It'll happen when youaccidentally miss a triathlon or
a school meeting or something.
And it will also happen if youaccidentally meet a miss a
meeting or like forget to dosomething.
But here's the reality.
You would do those things ifyou were a full-time parent or a
(29:51):
full-time worker, and so thefact that you're actually doing
both is like everyone's going todrop balls, like a stay-at-home
mum occasionally drops a ball,a full-time worker occasionally
drops a ball.
So just like, no, that you'rejust a human.
You're just a human who happensto have responsibilities and I
think bringing compassion aroundthat helps just like normalize
(30:11):
it, and then you kind of go okay, I'm just a human, I don't
necessarily have to be perfectall of the time.
Things are going to happen.
I think that's super importantand I think, finally, like we
have our non-negotiables andthat helps us make sure that
even if you get to a point wherewe've had four kids who've had
a vomit bug or like worksintense and all this stuff's
(30:34):
happening, as long as thosenon-negotiables are happening,
it's like everything's, like theworld's not going to come to an
end.
So that's making sure that wetuck the kids in a bed of a
night and make sure that we readthem the stories during the
week and make sure that we'recooking meals as often as we can
, even if there's kind of chaos,even if it's like as crap as a
(30:57):
spaghetti or whatever, like it'sjust a simple thing, and when
you're kind of doing thoselittle things, everything else
just seems to sort of feel calm.
So, yeah, they're probably thethings that I think I've got so
much more.
We've run so many wildexperiments and Steve and I have
also run a lot of differentexperiments in terms of who
(31:20):
takes the responsibility forwhat role and played, with me
being the breadwinner versus himbeing the breadwinner, him
being a full-time stay-at-homedad, me being a bit of
stay-at-home mum, then bothsharing, and now we're both in
the full hybrid mode again andit's been fascinating to kind of
go through those different rolechanges and really both have to
(31:41):
level up during the experience.
Prue Aja (31:43):
Yeah, actually, would you mind sharing how you guys do
things right now, because youboth live in different countries
and you both love each other'schildren as much as your own,
and the kids love each other andthey were all together for a
few years, so they're already inthe three years, yeah, so we've
been now apart for two months.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (32:03):
So at the beginning of the year we set up
our Melbourne apartment andwe've got shared pasta with the
on both sides of the ditch andso we've got the most phenomenal
burger calendar you've everseen.
And I spend seven days a monthover in New Zealand.
So I get time with his kids andhe spends two weeks across in
Melbourne and we figure out thefinal week which is no kids.
(32:25):
So we figure that one out.
It has been super challenging,but there are a couple of
paradigms that we sort of leanedin and started to challenge
last year which was like what isa family?
How much time do you have tospend together for you to be
okay as a family?
What are the sorts ofconversations that you need to
(32:47):
be holding regularly to ensureeveryone's emotional health is
okay?
How do we show up for eachother when we're not there?
So what are the active serviceor things that we can do to
support one another from a far?
Again, what are ournon-negotiables?
So we got to that whole sevendays in New Zealand, two weeks
(33:10):
in Melbourne, kind of thing,because our non-negotiable was
we want to be spending at leastthree weeks together as husband
and wife while we're parentingin that kind of month, and then
we've had work and travel andthat sort of stuff.
So, like this particular week,we're both solo parenting in
different countries and we didthings like did the shopping
(33:31):
together and like thought aboutwhat meals we're going to cook
together and so like, eventhough you're in different
countries, you're still helpingeach other make choices around,
like what to feed the kids andwhat to do on the weekend, and
like we just today planned areally cool surprise for the
kids in New Zealand becausethey're really missing us right
now.
So we've, like created thiscool opportunity for them.
So, yeah, it just takes a lotof communication and a lot of, I
(33:55):
think, kind of a human-centereddesign.
To me, it's just like who areall the people affected?
How do we make sure that we'rechecking in on them and
understanding, like, what theirneeds are, and then really
designing experiences around,how we sort of support each of
them within their uniqueexperiences, which we're doing.
So it's pretty incredible.
Prue Aja (34:14):
It's incredible that what you were mentioning before
like I'd love to write that downyou could almost create a
course for parents to do thatyeah.
Parents that are even together.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (34:25):
Just like you know, one needs to be met for
kids.
Prue Aja (34:30):
I remember when Mila was a baby.
You don't need to be like therethe whole time, it's actually
about making sure you're givingthem solid play time and really
feeling that bucket for them,because then they feel seen and
heard.
So then they then can go andplay with themselves.
They play their own games andentertain themselves.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (34:48):
So, instead of I love that scene and heard I
think that that's superimportant.
The other day I was reallymissing the Kiwi kids and I
wrote them all a love letter andI FaceTimed them and I read
them the love letters and likeevery single one of them teared
up and like was like I love youso much, thank you so much, and
I was like oh my God, that'ssuch a simple thing that you
just don't think to do forchildren.
(35:09):
But we know that those littlepractices are the things that
actually really hit home andthey absolutely love.
They love when we do loveletters, they love when we do
challenges.
So for Christmas I designed a12 month Wonder and Wanda Family
Challenge and so each monththey open an envelope and it's
got a voucher in there and it'sgot a challenge, and so they're
all in sync around thatparticular challenge and the
(35:32):
present that they get.
So it did two things itminimized the crap that happens
at Christmas, which drives meabsolutely nuts.
And it also kept us connected asa family.
Like their challenge this monthis a creativity challenge.
They've got $40 each to spendon craft supplies to think about
designing something and they'vealready started talking about
it and like trying to figure outwhat they do and it's like
(35:55):
common thing to focus on eachmonth, which has just been
awesome.
And it seems to be working,which is great.
Prue Aja (36:01):
And keeps them connected?
Can you please write a book andcreate a course about this
unbelievable knowledge andexperience and the way that you
are raising your kids?
I'm very inspired by it.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (36:16):
Thank you.
I'm so lucky to be a mama.
Prue Aja (36:21):
One other thing I wanted to ask you was maybe it's
a bit too much of a bigquestion, but I'll just try it
Like how do you teach your kidsabout business and money?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (36:33):
Oh no, this is a great question because it's
something we think about a lot.
I love it.
So I'm a human-centered designexpert.
I've been doing it and teachingit for the last 12 years.
I wrote an MBA in designthinking for RMIT University.
I've helped contribute to thepostgrading human potential for
a digital economy with AcademyEX.
(36:53):
It's something that I'm very,very passionate about.
So my approach to teaching themabout business is both through
the exposure of having themaround and having them part of
things.
We ask them to help us makedecisions.
We give them, like, differentscenarios and get them to kind
of play with that.
But I've taught all of our kidsdesign thinking so they all
(37:14):
know how to go through a designthinking process, because I
think that's one of the mostphenomenal tools that we can
give our children is how tosolve an epic problem, like, how
do you solve a wicked problem?
Well, you use a framework forsolving wicked problems.
So that's number one With money.
This year we've set it's prettycool actually so we use an app
called Family Wall and again,this is like an epic, epic tool
(37:37):
for families, like whether thisis a family who's together or
living in different places.
So we have set up a familybudget and the family budget
we've got like a kid's budgetand we basically track what they
have spent for the year.
So they got given a certainbudget for clothes, a certain
(37:58):
budget for toys and a certainbudget for what we called like
their connection flight.
So they each got a flight tomake sure that they can stay
connected to the family, so theycan execute that at any point
in the year.
And you should have seen therelief on their little faces
when they knew that they coulddo that.
It's like the cutest thingyou've ever seen, and the
(38:19):
greatest thing about that is wehave with this budget and
sitting them down and explaininghow that all works, we've
empowered them to have adifferent conversation.
So now when we go shopping,they look at something and
they'll be like I really likethis, I really want it, I think
I need it.
So we talked about wants andneeds, but you've also got to
have the budget for it.
So that final part is a partthat I think if every family
(38:42):
started so yeah, you need themonce a great, but do you have
the budget for it?
Set your kids the budget, givethem a budget and give them an
annual budget that they have tomanage with it.
So our kids have got, you know,super fortunate and also trying
to keep them like clever andthrifty, so they get a certain
amount.
Each Lola's already spent halfof hers.
Sienna's spent a quarter ofhers.
(39:02):
Stella's spent 30%.
Luke has only spent 6% of hisclothing budget.
Sienna's spent 10%.
But we check in on a regularbasis and let them know like,
right, this is what you spent ofthis night, this is what's left
.
So we're there on the weekendand they'll be like, oh, that I
really, I really want that.
I really like that.
Actually, I've got the budgetfor that so I can make a choice,
my own choice, with this moneythat I've got access to to get
(39:25):
that.
And I've just watched them overthe last few months and that
empowerment around I actuallyknow what I can and can't do
within my budget is definitelyempowering them to think
differently about their moneyand about what they buy and who
they buy it for, and I really Ilove that.
I absolutely love that.
Prue Aja (39:46):
I think it's not just kids that need that.
I need that, yeah, and that istotally a program that could be
implemented into schools,because I feel like that's one
of the biggest fault in theschooling system is we're not
taught these basic things liketax and money and how to manage
our money.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (40:04):
Probably Absolutely, and you know, I've
got the fortune of, you know, 12years in banking and seeing all
of the research and seeing allthe programs being built, and I
have sort of taken all of thoselessons and applied what I think
, from a human-centered designperspective, would actually work
with my family, and so it'sbeen cool to actually run the
experiment and watch it work.
I'm like, oh my goodness, Ifeel so good knowing that I
(40:27):
actually feel like I'm spoilingmy kids more than ever, but
they're all on budget, and soit's this lovely feeling of like
we've set a family budget,we've all signed up for it, but
we're all managing within it.
So, again, that's a really coolthing to be able to do across
the two countries with all thekids, everyone kind of coming
together.
It's a good vibe.
Prue Aja (40:47):
Incredible.
Can you be my, like my coachfor being a good mom.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (40:53):
Oh, that's so sweet.
You're an amazing mother.
I loved all our chats aboutmothering together when we're in
Antarctica, because it's a rolethat, like everyone, just
expects you to know how tonaturally do, like it's just
built into your genes and yourDNA.
And I think that's partiallytrue.
But I also think we of course,want the best for our children,
(41:13):
but we don't always know whatthe best like is, and I had the
most fascinating conversationwith the kids yesterday You're
going to laugh so much.
So they were out for coffeebefore school and they were like
, do you remember that time thatLuca ran out the road and like
you were really mad?
Because you were like pleasedon't run out the road without
telling me, you know, telling meand you gave him a behavioral
(41:36):
consequence of like no devicetime for an hour.
They were like that was toosoft, like that needed at least
three days, and I was like, oh,ok, tell me, where else have I
been too soft?
And they were like, oh, do youremember when, like, the kids
chased the chickens down thedriveway?
And you were like you shouldn'tchase the chickens down the
driveway, because what if theywere on the road?
And you were like, come on,guys, you got to be able to
(41:57):
listen.
And they didn't listen and theydid this again and then you
said to them again it was likeno sewing for a day.
It was like they love sewing.
So I was still being reallyharsh and they were like again,
man, too soft.
And I just think like we're allafraid of upsetting our children
and we never want to hurt them,but they want us to give them
structure and routines andguidelines and boundaries.
(42:19):
And you know, the budget is oneexample of like that's what
you've got to spend, that's allyou've got to spend.
And it's like the behaviors isthe other one.
So Steve and I introduced thiswhole behavioral consequence and
it's like you've got choices,you make choices, but if you
make a poor choice then there'sa behavioral consequence.
So you know that might be anhour without device time or a
(42:41):
day without sewing or somethinglike that.
Apparently that's too soft, weneed to kind of ramp it up.
But we just noticed, especiallywith five kids under one roof,
they responded exceptionallywell to that really clear
guidance around.
Well, there's a behavioralconsequence.
And they get to a point wherethey're like, oh, there's going
to be a behavioral consequencefor that choice.
(43:01):
And then you're like, yeah,sorry.
And you're like, fair enough.
Prue Aja (43:06):
I'm curious, if you would ask them to create, what
the consequence would be.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (43:12):
Yeah, we did that recently and we also asked
them to last holidays set theguidelines.
So we just said to them you letus know how you want to manage
this holidays.
They went downstairs, all fiveof them sat down on the floor,
created a whole chart and it wasall the things that they needed
to do to unlock points.
And then they created a pointschart and it was all gamified.
(43:33):
It was like you get 10 points,then you get this, then you get
this, then you get this, and itladded all the way up to like 80
points, and 80 points was 80bucks to spend on a new outfit.
You know, like it was prettydetailed and it was things like
you have to make your bed everyday, you can't leave toothpaste
on the sink, you can't pee onthe toilet seat, you've got to
have stuck the dishwasher,you've got to cook a meal Like
it was pretty detailed.
(43:54):
They came up with this entirething, wow.
And then they governed it Likeit was extraordinary.
We were just like every singleday.
Their bedroom was pristine,like military pristine, five
kids in one kind of den areawith bunk beds and stuff and
they kept it like meters of pinand they just all unlocked so
many points and we were, likeyou know, often parents if they
(44:17):
needed all the designing.
Prue Aja (44:18):
But kids are capable of designing really great
systems 100%, and you know,imagine this going into
government and our country'sbeen run like this.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (44:29):
I know that's like maybe people are actually
capable of making better choicesfor themselves.
You know, I mean and that's myfirmest belief as a
human-centered designer like askthe people, what do the people
want, what do they need?
You know, like, and of courseyou watch their behavior and
actually have to do theobserving as well.
But like, yeah, of course youcan start with what's going to
(44:52):
actually work for you.
It's an interesting way to kindof parent and leave 100%.
Prue Aja (44:58):
Well, you have just totally inspired and motivated
me.
I haven't got kids, but I'vegot two dogs now that have come
in and gone.
Can you feed me?
I'm going to wrap it up, thenI'm going to share info about
the she Evolves community.
Sarah Pirie-Nally (45:13):
Yeah, amazing .
Prue Aja (45:15):
Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or
talk about as well?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (45:21):
Oh, we've got actually a really amazing
experience that's coming up withthe solar eclipse in Mazatlan
in Mexico and there'll be acharter flight out of LAX,
return flights, an amazingeclipse experience.
I don't know if you, listening,have ever witnessed a solar
eclipse, but every four minutesand 20 seconds of totality and I
(45:42):
am thinking about going.
But regardless, the team haveput together the most
extraordinary experience andit's well worth checking out.
But yeah, insider expeditions,we've got some really
extraordinary experiences.
Our next retreat for sheEvolves is in Bahrain Bay in
August for the 22nd to the 24th.
We've got an add on day thatpeople can add on if they feel
(46:02):
like having an extra day, butit's going to be so much fun and
my girls will be there too, soit's going to be a lot of fun.
Prue Aja (46:09):
And I'll be there with Myla too.
I'm just going to quickly check, because I did ask my community
, our community if they had anyquestions about what we were
chatting about.
I'll quickly see if there wereno questions.
(46:30):
Probably not the best time Iasked it five minutes before we
started, so we're not the besttiming.
But it's so lovely to chat withyou and I really hope that
people will get something out oflistening to this and I'm sure
they're going to want to know alot more about how much of an
incredible parent you are andwhat you do as well, and you're
really just creating a beautifulnext generation.
(46:53):
And yeah, so you were verylucky aren't we?
Sarah Pirie-Nally (46:58):
Yeah, no-transcript.
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