August 30, 2021 • 23 mins
On this special guest episode, Matt Clarke interviews Randie Sykes about how they integrate mindfulness into their classrooms and schools.
Matt Clarke is the department head of English Language Learning at Fraser Heights Secondary in Surrey, British Columbia. Throughout his diverse experience as a classroom educator he has worked to integrate mindfulness in meaningful ways that support students’ social and emotional development. He is currently pursuing his Masters of Education at the University of Ottawa while working to ensure diversity and equity-mindedness within education.
Randie is a busy mom, wife, sister, and school counsellor. Experiencing the postive affect that mindfulness can have in one's life, Randie is passionate about using her experience to help others. In addition she completed her Master's in School Counselling Degree in 2017 with a focus on Mindfulness and its efficacy in the school setting. Randie is currently supporting youth and families within the public school system. As a YMCA trained Mindfulness facilitator, Randie runs group teen mindfulness sessions in her high school where she works as a school counsellor.
You can connect with Matt on Twitter at @mrclarke7.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Heather Woods (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to the SEL in Action
podcast. The podcast where wediscuss what social emotional
learning looks like ineducational and professional
settings. I'm your host HeatherWoods. And today we have a
special interviewer and theirguest. This is a interview from
a class project one of myprevious students did that I
(00:24):
felt really speaks to how socialemotional learning can be
implemented and thought aboutfor educators but also for
students. So I want to welcomeMatt Clark, a teacher from BC,
Canada. And he is interviewingRandy Sykes who is a school
psychologist as well in BritishColumbia. So I will turn it over
(00:47):
to them.
Matt Clarke (00:49):
I thought we probably would be improtant to
introduce ourselves. So we knoweach other from teaching an LST
back in the day, but now youhave left LS t Learning Support
Team. Yeah. And you now filledthese amazing boots as
Randie Sykes (01:07):
I am a school counselor at Fraser heights. So
I this is my fourth year as aschool counselor, and it has
been Interesting.
Matt Clarke (01:17):
Interesting in a pandemic year. Yes. And a
blended online year. Yeah. Threelearning here. Yeah, then coming
back here,
Randie Sykes (01:25):
right. And for start and stops. Yeah. And
transitions are really awesome.
for teenagers. They love change.
I'm being sarcastic.
Matt Clarke (01:35):
So we're gonna chat about mindfulness. But I thought
that we should kind of honorwhere you come from in this
conversation as well. Like, youknow, it's a it's a it's a
chicken in the egg situation. Sonot really, completely
confident, like you kind ofintroduced me to mindfulness in
the classroom and lst. But foryou, okay, what you practice?
I'm like you you practicemindfulness outside of school.
(01:57):
But Was that something that camebefore you bringing it into the
classroom?
Randie Sykes (02:01):
Yes. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good
question, actually. And in fact,like, I've done a lot of
thinking about that, about thatrelationship, like, chicken egg,
right. So there's lots of folksthat will are interested in
mindfulness, but they don'tnecessarily have a personal
connection to it. And we'll tryto implement it in the
classroom. And there's the otherway around, where you have a
(02:22):
personal relationship with thefirst and then you implement it
in the classroom. And so there'sno right or wrong, I think, if
you're, if you're want to talkon mindfulness, it's supposed to
be really simple. It's supposedto be very user friendly. And
all mindfulness is it's justpaying attention being being
aware. And so you can do that ina variety of ways. You don't
necessarily need to have apersonal connection to it. I
(02:44):
did. And so my story is, Iactually used it for myself
during a really, reallydifficult time. We had that
strike, two teacher families.Youknow, things were, things were
hard, and we actually ended upgetting a job, like a part time
job, we went back to like, whenwe were in our early 20s,
(03:06):
although we had a mortgage, youknow, in this warehouse, and I
found I waited tables, Yes, Iremember. Oh my gosh, yes, with
the things that we had to do toadapt to that time of, of
change, and then adapt. Butalso, I think what I found was I
needed a coping skill to dealwith the internalized stress of
(03:29):
of that. So I just was findingmyself I couldn't sleep at
night, my mind was racing, I waswaking up with like, like,
sweaty kind of like until I waslike, you know, stressed out.
And then I took my kids actuallyto the international Buddhist
temple just because they have areally cool statue there. And I
wanted, sorry, not statue, butit's the basically an iconic
(03:55):
figure, made it of gold. And Iwanted to show Elliot and I
walked in, and there was a bigposter that said, free
mindfulness classes. And I waslike, whoo, this is fun. Like, I
would love to learn more aboutthis. And to be honest, I kind
of buy into that kind of cultureto like the New Age kind of
(04:16):
stuff. And so I was like, Oh,this is fun. And it was
terrifying. My first time therewas super structured and I
learned from Buddhist monks, theBuddhist way, the traditional,
which was a tough learningcurve. But Wow, like what an
amazing practice. No one isteaching you it's all you
(04:39):
teaching yourself and listeningand absorbing the energy of
other people practicing withyou. It is such a different way
of learning and it's all aboutallowing yourself to slow down
which is super scary and beingokay with being with yourself.
Which I found was terrifying.
And then that learning was likewhat Like, I have a choice here
(04:59):
now, what do I, what am I goingto do about that? Am I going to
continue to ignore myself andthat fear? Or am I going to lean
into it? And at that time in mylife, I had nothing else to
lose. And so I leaned into it.
And yeah, and I practiced forfour years at that temple. And
(05:20):
it was amazing, good experience.
Matt Clarke (05:24):
So how does it then make its way into the classroom,
especially when you considerthat your your background was in
meditation as a as a as asecular? Yeah, act, right. And
then when we really bring itinto the classroom, that's one
of the big barriers is, youknow, having these conversations
(05:45):
with students and parents andbeliefs that, you know, when we
talk about mindfulness beingmeditation, like you said, only
as one of the options of beingmindful. Like there's sometimes
there's walls get put up when wehear that kind of religious
based foundational languagearound all of it.
Randie Sykes (06:02):
100% I think that we've, you know, there's Jon
Kabat Zinn is like the one ofthe like, biggest, I think the
one of the first educators onmindfulness, and he really did a
good job, I think of separatingthe religious connotations from
like, no, there's actual, likemedical scientific rationale
(06:23):
behind this practice. And, andthis is why, and they did a
study in like the 60s where hewas like, bring me all have the
people you cannot fix. And Iwill practice mindfulness with
them. And it was like one ofthose 60s trials, I was like,
and then I'll give them LSD.
Anyway. So that was like, kindof the first separation and that
happened. I'd say, like in thein the 60s was a big push for
(06:46):
that. But bringing into theclassroom, especially in our
school, we have a largepopulation of Chinese students
and I, the minute you bring upthe word like meditation instead
of mindfulness, immediately,it's like, they they either have
a connection, or they have anaversion. Sorry, sorry, I think
neither. They're like, Oh,that's so interesting. Like I
(07:10):
want I totally practice that onmy own. I want to, I want to do
that. Yeah, more interested in Iwant to learn more about that.
And then other kids were like,Oh, no, no, our family does not
practice that we're notBuddhist. We're, we're a
Christian. Yeah. And so teachingkids that no, this is not
anything to do with religion,per se, this is this is just a
self regulation strategy, calmyour emotions with them or deal
(07:32):
with stress.
Matt Clarke (07:39):
So I think you obviously I mean, this maybe
goes without being said with theyou would believe that schools
is a place to practicemindfulness, but that there's an
appropriate place.
Randie Sykes (07:50):
I think, that if we don't start teaching kids to
slow down and practice one thingat a time, it's going, it's
already killing them. And when Isay killing, I mean that like,
literally, but but by and large,mostly it's, it's just they're
(08:15):
not coping with, with modern,modern living, it's too much.
It's just too much. There's somuch going on. And we're not
meant to know as much as weknow. And technology has really
accelerated the like amount ofinput. And what do we do with
that input. And so many kidswith the fact like their, their
(08:39):
brains are not fully formedtheir ability to like, slow down
and process information and say,Oh, this is the most important
thing, I should focus on this.
They just don't have thoseabilities yet. And so some, some
actually say that mindfulnesswith teenagers is not
appropriate because of that.
Some would argue that, butactually, I felt the opposite.
(09:04):
That teenagers need this. Andyeah, it's scary. They don't
want to do it. When you tellthem they have to put away their
phones or turn them off, or takethem God forbid, the stress
level woof. But over time, itgets easier. And so the reason
(09:24):
why, just going back to bringingit into the classroom, the
reason why I brought it in tothe classroom is because I was
working with kids that were notcoping, and it wasn't Learning
Support environment, where I wasbeing asked to support them with
their learning, but I would sitdown beside a child that was
absolutely vibrating withemotion. And asking them to open
(09:46):
up their textbook to page 52.
And let's look at number threetogether. What like, No, I'm not
going to be doing that. I'mgoing to be asking this kid to
take some deep breaths. I'mgoing to be asking them to you
know, visualize A place thatthey feel safe. You know, I'm
going to be doing all thesestrategies. And I was naturally
because because who I who I amand my personal practice, I was
(10:07):
bringing some of that stuff in.
But I didn't make yet theconnection that I was, oh my
gosh, this is mindfulness. Yeah,until I did my own masters in my
own inquiry project aroundmindfulness and self regulation
in the classroom. And then itwas just like, my brain
exploded. And I'm like, Oh, mygosh, this is the missing piece.
Matt Clarke (10:27):
It's mindfulness is a tool and that self regulation,
that emotional regulation piecethat precedes any kind of
academic performance, or any wecan't even get there until we
have dealt with this state thatwe're in Yes, essentially, yes,
yeah.
Randie Sykes (10:42):
Shankar, who is a prophet UBC wrote that book like
calm alert and learning. And weif we don't have students in
place, and zones as a good, goodway to explain that to kids,
right? If you're not in thegreen zone, you're not in the
learning zone. Right? And solike, the question then is, how
do we get there? And if we can'tget to green, how do we get a
little bit closer? Right, andwhen we slowly so we're, we're
(11:06):
working with people, we're notworking with students when we're
doing this. And so it's totallydifferent perspective shift for
teachers as well, which is,which facilitates connection and
relationship. That's huge. Ifound immediately, kids were
coming to me, not just not justfor their brains, but for their
(11:26):
for their hearts, like theywanted to connect, because I was
giving them the time,
Matt Clarke (11:31):
there's a change in your in your classroom climate,
because it slowing it down.
Yeah, and bases everything onrelationships first and being
ready to learn before the actuallearning.
Randie Sykes (11:42):
Yes, and coming out of so we would do meditation
Mondays. And we would, we woulddo it in the morning on Mondays.
Sorry, before each class onMonday, so throughout the whole
day, and I felt we choseMondays. Because the weekends
are tough for a lot of thesekids, and they come from
families that are a lot ofpressure, a lot of teenagers,
(12:02):
they're going to have issues athome. And so we wanted to give
them that time to process theirweekend. And then also we would
have a talking circleafterwards. And so we would give
them time to process, and thenit would come to the circle. And
then we would ask them if theywanted to share anything. And so
that would give them anopportunity then to make meaning
out of that processing. And doit in an environment where they
(12:25):
were together. So they were notalone. And there was a teacher
facilitator. So it was sopowerful for those kids. And
they felt really grounded andcentered and connected at the
beginning of their week madesuch a difference.
Matt Clarke (12:37):
You know, in talking to some of our other
colleagues who do some likemindfulness Mondays are
something on Monday to reallyground the week seems to be a
very common theme here. Andthese conversations, yeah, but
also other pieces that happenthroughout the week, that all
kind of connected back tomindfulness. Because I think
through throughout most of theliterature, and the research and
(12:57):
everything, mindfulness reallyfocuses on meditation as the
practice. But there's all theseother things that go with it,
like gratitude, and positivity.
And just general well being thatthere's these other activities
that staff have talked aboutthat they do like these fist
pump Fridays, or even like danceFriday is just getting up and
moving, that I'll build kind ofinto that mindful piece of just
(13:19):
being more aware of your bodymore aware of your emotions,
more aware of your stress, moreable to label all of those
things. And I know that in LSTyou also had a guy that you had
that conversation but you had areflective piece about the
heart. The mind, body, yeah.
Randie Sykes (13:38):
Yeah. heart, mind body. And it was very
interesting, like because weused it, so the heart, heart,
mind body, so it would be wheredid you so the body would be
kind of easy for students toidentify, I found that they
were, they could tell me like,okay, when you were meditating,
or when you were sitting still,sometimes I wouldn't even use
(13:58):
the word meditation because Icould hear I could see it in
their face puke, they alreadyhave an aversion to it. And, you
know, if they would say, Oh, myback hurt, or, you know, it was
weird. like two minutes into mymeditation, I just felt this
like wave of calm, come over mybody. And, and then another
person. I remember a very commonone, another person wrote, I
(14:21):
could feel my stomach musclesbeing very tight. And when I was
aware of that, I relaxed them.
And it made a big difference tomy ability to sit still for
longer, right? And so like allthese little physical awareness,
like how, how that affects yourmind and your body and your
heart health all connected. Andthen the mind was like, What
thoughts came up? Was there atheme? Was it mostly about the
(14:42):
weekend was it around an eventthat happened? And then the
heart is like, kind of, how areyou feeling during that time,
like, during your meditation,sometimes we have, we're having
a good day and we're like, I'mthe best meditator on the
planet. I'm winning this forsure. And then you come out of
it and you're like, I'm savedall my problems are saved. Every
(15:05):
time it's gonna be like thatnow, and then the next time you
go to sit on the carpet, it'slike, wow, I'm a mess. Yeah. And
I can't focus and, and so it'sit's interesting for kids to
just be aware of how they'refeeling that day. And we have a
way of, of blaming ourselves forthat, and judging ourselves. And
(15:25):
so we would have a lot ofCongress, especially teenagers,
or adults, anyone judges, exceptfor maybe three year olds.
Matt Clarke (15:34):
My three year old judges
Randie Sykes (15:37):
judge themselves himself.
Matt Clarke (15:38):
Judges my ability to spread peanut butter. Oh,
yeah. Oh, yeah.
Randie Sykes (15:43):
Yes, endless. But you know, I think it's so
healthy, healthy for them to belike, you know, except just be
like, you know, this ishappening today. And don't blame
meditation. Don't blameyourself. This is just the way
the natural wave and rhythm oflife and really normalizing
that. And, yeah, that's a hugething.
Matt Clarke (16:02):
Yeah. I like things I think we talk too much about
or the research talks too muchabout self awareness and self
management, but self acceptanceas a as a part of it, as well
being like, this is where I'mat, there is no winning
meditation, like I'm in thebody. And I'm in the mindset
that I am in and I'm honoringthat place. Yeah, I think is
really important to movingforward. Yes to, you mentioned
(16:25):
teachers as facilitators. Now,that's a big thing, right? Like,
in the efficacy of implementingmindfulness in classrooms is
that it has to be with a trustedadult, or a teacher, or a
community member that'sknowingsome of the research they
have, like people come in thatknow these programs, right. So
they're like program trainedinstructors, and it's effective
(16:48):
in the study. But then in thelong term, there's not that
relational connection that we'vebeen talking about. So it kind
of seems like in the classroom,it really starts and ends with
teachers as facilitators, butthen there's like, you know,
people are nervous to step intoimplementing this or introducing
this in the classroom for allthe reasons that we've already
(17:08):
said, like, there's blocks whenyou talk about it, there's that
secular non secular piece tobridge, there's the there's the
how to right and there's theenvironmental piece of like, I
don't even know how to set thisup in my classroom. my classroom
is rows of tables. And thatdoesn't really seem a place
that's apropos to sitting downand being mindful, or the
announcements Come on, are therehallways noises loud? Like how
do I even enter this? So whatwould your like? elevator pitch
(17:33):
be to educators that are likethinking about or tackling,
bringing mindfulness into theclass?
Randie Sykes (17:39):
Yeah, so my, I am very biased in the sense that
like, I can't, I can't imaginean experience of bringing
mindfulness into the classroomwithout having a personal
connection with it first. To me,that was absolutely critical in
how I, how I present it to thekids. Authenticity is 150%
(18:04):
critical for teachingmindfulness. If you're like,
Okay, everybody put your headdown a little snooze, click, you
know, when you put on some, likepeaceful music. Yeah, that's not
mindfulness, that's resting,which is also good, but it's not
mindfulness. So really,understanding what that process
(18:25):
is, and how incredibly difficultit is, is it is needed. In fact,
being a master of meditation oror doing it for longer than a
month is not required. But youknow, you should give it an
honest effort before you bringit into the classroom. Because I
think for kids, having thoselike really honest conversations
(18:46):
about man, it's frustrating.
Like, this is frustrating.
Sitting with ourselves is hard.
But at the end of the day, if wecan't sit with ourselves, then
we shouldn't be sitting withother people, either. We have to
be okay with ourselves first.
Yeah, it starts it starts athome and then extends out. Yeah.
(19:07):
So it's like inside out, ratherthan outside in concept, right.
Matt Clarke (19:14):
So, and you always practice what you preach. And I
think that was a big thing.
Yeah. to like, it wasn't like,like you said, just play the app
or whatever. Because there's nojudgment on the fact that maybe
you're doing a guided meditationthrough a program, right.
Randie Sykes (19:25):
I was doing using that program. Yeah, it was
helpful. But I would say like, Iwould also use my own anecdotes
like, man, I was at the templeon the weekend. And this, you
know, was watching these monks.
I'm thinking to myself, like,just got back from Guilford
mall, but myself and your aritzatop can't wait to put it out,
like talking about how to be howto be mindful in the real world.
(19:48):
And making that accessible forkids is what is required of a
facilitator. Not necessarilylike being a mom. And doing all
like really living intenselylike that, because that almost
deters kids too, right?
Matt Clarke (20:05):
Yeah. No, I was thinking more like, like you are
practicing mindfulness alongsidethe kids. It's not, it's not the
opportunity for 10 minutes foryou to go on your email, like,
Oh, yeah, you were doing it, wewere doing it. And then in that
top back, you're like, you knowwhat, today was really tough day
for me too, because I wasfeeling to the office For Whom
(20:27):
the Bell Tolls?
Randie Sykes (20:29):
Me like two minutes, okay. My time is
valuable. So I would say that ifyou're not practicing with the
kids, then why are the kidspracticing? Right? That's,
that's what they're thinking.
You if you're, if you're askingthem to step outside of their
comfort zone, and you're notwilling to do that yourself, you
can't, you can't do that. So Imean, you can but it's not,
(20:51):
they're gonna, they're gonnapretend it's and close your
eyes. And you know, so theauthenticity is key. Create
setting up the environment iskey, very challenging in a
school. You're right. Lots oflots of interruptions in
schools, holy cow, but even moreof a reason to bring in
mindfulness, gettingadministration on board. So and
(21:11):
putting a sign outside of yourdoor. We are, you know,
mindfulness is practice beingpracticed here this morning,
please, please be quiet, I thinkis a great also. message for
students walking the halls thatthis is what we do here, like we
slow things down, okay? schoolschool is a place where we can
(21:33):
be calm and quiet and close oureyes, because it's a really
vulnerable position to be in.
Another little trick is gettingkids to like, turn and face the
wall. So they're not becausethey're teenagers are so
socially aware that theyactually cannot focus on their
meditation. So just removing allbarriers that they want to sit
in a chair, let them sit in achair. If they want to fidget
(21:53):
with something, let them fidgetwith something. It's all about
making them comfortable. As muchas possible, because facing
themselves is the biggest fear.
So just making that as comfy asyou can, too, for them to do
that hard work.
Matt Clarke (22:12):
Facing themselves as the biggest fear I like them.
I think that I mean, I thinkthat's teenagers and beyond
anybody sitting with yourself?
Yeah.
Randie Sykes (22:21):
Where am I going?
What do I have to do in fiveminutes? What do I do last
month? Oh, crap. 10 years ago, Idid that. Yeah, your brain is
like a monkey mind. And it'salways judging you. It's always
your internal critic is alwaysthere, whether we like it or
not.
Matt Clarke (22:37):
Well, thank you for spending some time and sitting
down. I feel like it's aproposto say that schools are a busy
place since you're literallybeing paged out of this meeting
to go to another meeting. Sowe'll leave it there. Thank you.
Heather Woods (22:55):
You've been listening to the SEL in Action
podcast. I want to thank ourguest interviewer Matt Clark,
and his colleague, Randy Sykes,for sharing their thoughts and
the research that Matt had done,as well as the experiences and
research that Randy has done onmindfulness in the classroom. I
(23:17):
hope that you learned a lot fromthis episode, and I hope we have
more of these guestpresentations as well. Feel free
to connect with Matt on socialmedia. His information is in the
show notes. As always, feel freeto connect with us at Sal in
action on Twitter, Facebook, andthe website and Instagram as
(23:39):
well. Thank you so much forlistening and we hope you have a
great day.
Hello, and welcome to the SEL in Action
podcast. The podcast where wediscuss what social emotional
learning looks like ineducational and professional
settings. I'm your host HeatherWoods. And today we have a
special interviewer and theirguest. This is a interview from
a class project one of myprevious students did that I
(00:24):
felt really speaks to how socialemotional learning can be
implemented and thought aboutfor educators but also for
students. So I want to welcomeMatt Clark, a teacher from BC,
Canada. And he is interviewingRandy Sykes who is a school
psychologist as well in BritishColumbia. So I will turn it over
(00:47):
to them.
Matt Clarke (00:49):
I thought we probably would be improtant to
introduce ourselves. So we knoweach other from teaching an LST
back in the day, but now youhave left LS t Learning Support
Team. Yeah. And you now filledthese amazing boots as
Randie Sykes (01:07):
I am a school counselor at Fraser heights. So
I this is my fourth year as aschool counselor, and it has
been Interesting.
Matt Clarke (01:17):
Interesting in a pandemic year. Yes. And a
blended online year. Yeah. Threelearning here. Yeah, then coming
back here,
Randie Sykes (01:25):
right. And for start and stops. Yeah. And
transitions are really awesome.
for teenagers. They love change.
I'm being sarcastic.
Matt Clarke (01:35):
So we're gonna chat about mindfulness. But I thought
that we should kind of honorwhere you come from in this
conversation as well. Like, youknow, it's a it's a it's a
chicken in the egg situation. Sonot really, completely
confident, like you kind ofintroduced me to mindfulness in
the classroom and lst. But foryou, okay, what you practice?
I'm like you you practicemindfulness outside of school.
(01:57):
But Was that something that camebefore you bringing it into the
classroom?
Randie Sykes (02:01):
Yes. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. That's a really good
question, actually. And in fact,like, I've done a lot of
thinking about that, about thatrelationship, like, chicken egg,
right. So there's lots of folksthat will are interested in
mindfulness, but they don'tnecessarily have a personal
connection to it. And we'll tryto implement it in the
classroom. And there's the otherway around, where you have a
(02:22):
personal relationship with thefirst and then you implement it
in the classroom. And so there'sno right or wrong, I think, if
you're, if you're want to talkon mindfulness, it's supposed to
be really simple. It's supposedto be very user friendly. And
all mindfulness is it's justpaying attention being being
aware. And so you can do that ina variety of ways. You don't
necessarily need to have apersonal connection to it. I
(02:44):
did. And so my story is, Iactually used it for myself
during a really, reallydifficult time. We had that
strike, two teacher families.Youknow, things were, things were
hard, and we actually ended upgetting a job, like a part time
job, we went back to like, whenwe were in our early 20s,
(03:06):
although we had a mortgage, youknow, in this warehouse, and I
found I waited tables, Yes, Iremember. Oh my gosh, yes, with
the things that we had to do toadapt to that time of, of
change, and then adapt. Butalso, I think what I found was I
needed a coping skill to dealwith the internalized stress of
(03:29):
of that. So I just was findingmyself I couldn't sleep at
night, my mind was racing, I waswaking up with like, like,
sweaty kind of like until I waslike, you know, stressed out.
And then I took my kids actuallyto the international Buddhist
temple just because they have areally cool statue there. And I
wanted, sorry, not statue, butit's the basically an iconic
(03:55):
figure, made it of gold. And Iwanted to show Elliot and I
walked in, and there was a bigposter that said, free
mindfulness classes. And I waslike, whoo, this is fun. Like, I
would love to learn more aboutthis. And to be honest, I kind
of buy into that kind of cultureto like the New Age kind of
(04:16):
stuff. And so I was like, Oh,this is fun. And it was
terrifying. My first time therewas super structured and I
learned from Buddhist monks, theBuddhist way, the traditional,
which was a tough learningcurve. But Wow, like what an
amazing practice. No one isteaching you it's all you
(04:39):
teaching yourself and listeningand absorbing the energy of
other people practicing withyou. It is such a different way
of learning and it's all aboutallowing yourself to slow down
which is super scary and beingokay with being with yourself.
Which I found was terrifying.
And then that learning was likewhat Like, I have a choice here
(04:59):
now, what do I, what am I goingto do about that? Am I going to
continue to ignore myself andthat fear? Or am I going to lean
into it? And at that time in mylife, I had nothing else to
lose. And so I leaned into it.
And yeah, and I practiced forfour years at that temple. And
(05:20):
it was amazing, good experience.
Matt Clarke (05:24):
So how does it then make its way into the classroom,
especially when you considerthat your your background was in
meditation as a as a as asecular? Yeah, act, right. And
then when we really bring itinto the classroom, that's one
of the big barriers is, youknow, having these conversations
(05:45):
with students and parents andbeliefs that, you know, when we
talk about mindfulness beingmeditation, like you said, only
as one of the options of beingmindful. Like there's sometimes
there's walls get put up when wehear that kind of religious
based foundational languagearound all of it.
Randie Sykes (06:02):
100% I think that we've, you know, there's Jon
Kabat Zinn is like the one ofthe like, biggest, I think the
one of the first educators onmindfulness, and he really did a
good job, I think of separatingthe religious connotations from
like, no, there's actual, likemedical scientific rationale
(06:23):
behind this practice. And, andthis is why, and they did a
study in like the 60s where hewas like, bring me all have the
people you cannot fix. And Iwill practice mindfulness with
them. And it was like one ofthose 60s trials, I was like,
and then I'll give them LSD.
Anyway. So that was like, kindof the first separation and that
happened. I'd say, like in thein the 60s was a big push for
(06:46):
that. But bringing into theclassroom, especially in our
school, we have a largepopulation of Chinese students
and I, the minute you bring upthe word like meditation instead
of mindfulness, immediately,it's like, they they either have
a connection, or they have anaversion. Sorry, sorry, I think
neither. They're like, Oh,that's so interesting. Like I
(07:10):
want I totally practice that onmy own. I want to, I want to do
that. Yeah, more interested in Iwant to learn more about that.
And then other kids were like,Oh, no, no, our family does not
practice that we're notBuddhist. We're, we're a
Christian. Yeah. And so teachingkids that no, this is not
anything to do with religion,per se, this is this is just a
self regulation strategy, calmyour emotions with them or deal
(07:32):
with stress.
Matt Clarke (07:39):
So I think you obviously I mean, this maybe
goes without being said with theyou would believe that schools
is a place to practicemindfulness, but that there's an
appropriate place.
Randie Sykes (07:50):
I think, that if we don't start teaching kids to
slow down and practice one thingat a time, it's going, it's
already killing them. And when Isay killing, I mean that like,
literally, but but by and large,mostly it's, it's just they're
(08:15):
not coping with, with modern,modern living, it's too much.
It's just too much. There's somuch going on. And we're not
meant to know as much as weknow. And technology has really
accelerated the like amount ofinput. And what do we do with
that input. And so many kidswith the fact like their, their
(08:39):
brains are not fully formedtheir ability to like, slow down
and process information and say,Oh, this is the most important
thing, I should focus on this.
They just don't have thoseabilities yet. And so some, some
actually say that mindfulnesswith teenagers is not
appropriate because of that.
Some would argue that, butactually, I felt the opposite.
(09:04):
That teenagers need this. Andyeah, it's scary. They don't
want to do it. When you tellthem they have to put away their
phones or turn them off, or takethem God forbid, the stress
level woof. But over time, itgets easier. And so the reason
(09:24):
why, just going back to bringingit into the classroom, the
reason why I brought it in tothe classroom is because I was
working with kids that were notcoping, and it wasn't Learning
Support environment, where I wasbeing asked to support them with
their learning, but I would sitdown beside a child that was
absolutely vibrating withemotion. And asking them to open
(09:46):
up their textbook to page 52.
And let's look at number threetogether. What like, No, I'm not
going to be doing that. I'mgoing to be asking this kid to
take some deep breaths. I'mgoing to be asking them to you
know, visualize A place thatthey feel safe. You know, I'm
going to be doing all thesestrategies. And I was naturally
because because who I who I amand my personal practice, I was
(10:07):
bringing some of that stuff in.
But I didn't make yet theconnection that I was, oh my
gosh, this is mindfulness. Yeah,until I did my own masters in my
own inquiry project aroundmindfulness and self regulation
in the classroom. And then itwas just like, my brain
exploded. And I'm like, Oh, mygosh, this is the missing piece.
Matt Clarke (10:27):
It's mindfulness is a tool and that self regulation,
that emotional regulation piecethat precedes any kind of
academic performance, or any wecan't even get there until we
have dealt with this state thatwe're in Yes, essentially, yes,
yeah.
Randie Sykes (10:42):
Shankar, who is a prophet UBC wrote that book like
calm alert and learning. And weif we don't have students in
place, and zones as a good, goodway to explain that to kids,
right? If you're not in thegreen zone, you're not in the
learning zone. Right? And solike, the question then is, how
do we get there? And if we can'tget to green, how do we get a
little bit closer? Right, andwhen we slowly so we're, we're
(11:06):
working with people, we're notworking with students when we're
doing this. And so it's totallydifferent perspective shift for
teachers as well, which is,which facilitates connection and
relationship. That's huge. Ifound immediately, kids were
coming to me, not just not justfor their brains, but for their
(11:26):
for their hearts, like theywanted to connect, because I was
giving them the time,
Matt Clarke (11:31):
there's a change in your in your classroom climate,
because it slowing it down.
Yeah, and bases everything onrelationships first and being
ready to learn before the actuallearning.
Randie Sykes (11:42):
Yes, and coming out of so we would do meditation
Mondays. And we would, we woulddo it in the morning on Mondays.
Sorry, before each class onMonday, so throughout the whole
day, and I felt we choseMondays. Because the weekends
are tough for a lot of thesekids, and they come from
families that are a lot ofpressure, a lot of teenagers,
(12:02):
they're going to have issues athome. And so we wanted to give
them that time to process theirweekend. And then also we would
have a talking circleafterwards. And so we would give
them time to process, and thenit would come to the circle. And
then we would ask them if theywanted to share anything. And so
that would give them anopportunity then to make meaning
out of that processing. And doit in an environment where they
(12:25):
were together. So they were notalone. And there was a teacher
facilitator. So it was sopowerful for those kids. And
they felt really grounded andcentered and connected at the
beginning of their week madesuch a difference.
Matt Clarke (12:37):
You know, in talking to some of our other
colleagues who do some likemindfulness Mondays are
something on Monday to reallyground the week seems to be a
very common theme here. Andthese conversations, yeah, but
also other pieces that happenthroughout the week, that all
kind of connected back tomindfulness. Because I think
through throughout most of theliterature, and the research and
(12:57):
everything, mindfulness reallyfocuses on meditation as the
practice. But there's all theseother things that go with it,
like gratitude, and positivity.
And just general well being thatthere's these other activities
that staff have talked aboutthat they do like these fist
pump Fridays, or even like danceFriday is just getting up and
moving, that I'll build kind ofinto that mindful piece of just
(13:19):
being more aware of your bodymore aware of your emotions,
more aware of your stress, moreable to label all of those
things. And I know that in LSTyou also had a guy that you had
that conversation but you had areflective piece about the
heart. The mind, body, yeah.
Randie Sykes (13:38):
Yeah. heart, mind body. And it was very
interesting, like because weused it, so the heart, heart,
mind body, so it would be wheredid you so the body would be
kind of easy for students toidentify, I found that they
were, they could tell me like,okay, when you were meditating,
or when you were sitting still,sometimes I wouldn't even use
(13:58):
the word meditation because Icould hear I could see it in
their face puke, they alreadyhave an aversion to it. And, you
know, if they would say, Oh, myback hurt, or, you know, it was
weird. like two minutes into mymeditation, I just felt this
like wave of calm, come over mybody. And, and then another
person. I remember a very commonone, another person wrote, I
(14:21):
could feel my stomach musclesbeing very tight. And when I was
aware of that, I relaxed them.
And it made a big difference tomy ability to sit still for
longer, right? And so like allthese little physical awareness,
like how, how that affects yourmind and your body and your
heart health all connected. Andthen the mind was like, What
thoughts came up? Was there atheme? Was it mostly about the
(14:42):
weekend was it around an eventthat happened? And then the
heart is like, kind of, how areyou feeling during that time,
like, during your meditation,sometimes we have, we're having
a good day and we're like, I'mthe best meditator on the
planet. I'm winning this forsure. And then you come out of
it and you're like, I'm savedall my problems are saved. Every
(15:05):
time it's gonna be like thatnow, and then the next time you
go to sit on the carpet, it'slike, wow, I'm a mess. Yeah. And
I can't focus and, and so it'sit's interesting for kids to
just be aware of how they'refeeling that day. And we have a
way of, of blaming ourselves forthat, and judging ourselves. And
(15:25):
so we would have a lot ofCongress, especially teenagers,
or adults, anyone judges, exceptfor maybe three year olds.
Matt Clarke (15:34):
My three year old judges
Randie Sykes (15:37):
judge themselves himself.
Matt Clarke (15:38):
Judges my ability to spread peanut butter. Oh,
yeah. Oh, yeah.
Randie Sykes (15:43):
Yes, endless. But you know, I think it's so
healthy, healthy for them to belike, you know, except just be
like, you know, this ishappening today. And don't blame
meditation. Don't blameyourself. This is just the way
the natural wave and rhythm oflife and really normalizing
that. And, yeah, that's a hugething.
Matt Clarke (16:02):
Yeah. I like things I think we talk too much about
or the research talks too muchabout self awareness and self
management, but self acceptanceas a as a part of it, as well
being like, this is where I'mat, there is no winning
meditation, like I'm in thebody. And I'm in the mindset
that I am in and I'm honoringthat place. Yeah, I think is
really important to movingforward. Yes to, you mentioned
(16:25):
teachers as facilitators. Now,that's a big thing, right? Like,
in the efficacy of implementingmindfulness in classrooms is
that it has to be with a trustedadult, or a teacher, or a
community member that'sknowingsome of the research they
have, like people come in thatknow these programs, right. So
they're like program trainedinstructors, and it's effective
(16:48):
in the study. But then in thelong term, there's not that
relational connection that we'vebeen talking about. So it kind
of seems like in the classroom,it really starts and ends with
teachers as facilitators, butthen there's like, you know,
people are nervous to step intoimplementing this or introducing
this in the classroom for allthe reasons that we've already
(17:08):
said, like, there's blocks whenyou talk about it, there's that
secular non secular piece tobridge, there's the there's the
how to right and there's theenvironmental piece of like, I
don't even know how to set thisup in my classroom. my classroom
is rows of tables. And thatdoesn't really seem a place
that's apropos to sitting downand being mindful, or the
announcements Come on, are therehallways noises loud? Like how
do I even enter this? So whatwould your like? elevator pitch
(17:33):
be to educators that are likethinking about or tackling,
bringing mindfulness into theclass?
Randie Sykes (17:39):
Yeah, so my, I am very biased in the sense that
like, I can't, I can't imaginean experience of bringing
mindfulness into the classroomwithout having a personal
connection with it first. To me,that was absolutely critical in
how I, how I present it to thekids. Authenticity is 150%
(18:04):
critical for teachingmindfulness. If you're like,
Okay, everybody put your headdown a little snooze, click, you
know, when you put on some, likepeaceful music. Yeah, that's not
mindfulness, that's resting,which is also good, but it's not
mindfulness. So really,understanding what that process
(18:25):
is, and how incredibly difficultit is, is it is needed. In fact,
being a master of meditation oror doing it for longer than a
month is not required. But youknow, you should give it an
honest effort before you bringit into the classroom. Because I
think for kids, having thoselike really honest conversations
(18:46):
about man, it's frustrating.
Like, this is frustrating.
Sitting with ourselves is hard.
But at the end of the day, if wecan't sit with ourselves, then
we shouldn't be sitting withother people, either. We have to
be okay with ourselves first.
Yeah, it starts it starts athome and then extends out. Yeah.
(19:07):
So it's like inside out, ratherthan outside in concept, right.
Matt Clarke (19:14):
So, and you always practice what you preach. And I
think that was a big thing.
Yeah. to like, it wasn't like,like you said, just play the app
or whatever. Because there's nojudgment on the fact that maybe
you're doing a guided meditationthrough a program, right.
Randie Sykes (19:25):
I was doing using that program. Yeah, it was
helpful. But I would say like, Iwould also use my own anecdotes
like, man, I was at the templeon the weekend. And this, you
know, was watching these monks.
I'm thinking to myself, like,just got back from Guilford
mall, but myself and your aritzatop can't wait to put it out,
like talking about how to be howto be mindful in the real world.
(19:48):
And making that accessible forkids is what is required of a
facilitator. Not necessarilylike being a mom. And doing all
like really living intenselylike that, because that almost
deters kids too, right?
Matt Clarke (20:05):
Yeah. No, I was thinking more like, like you are
practicing mindfulness alongsidethe kids. It's not, it's not the
opportunity for 10 minutes foryou to go on your email, like,
Oh, yeah, you were doing it, wewere doing it. And then in that
top back, you're like, you knowwhat, today was really tough day
for me too, because I wasfeeling to the office For Whom
(20:27):
the Bell Tolls?
Randie Sykes (20:29):
Me like two minutes, okay. My time is
valuable. So I would say that ifyou're not practicing with the
kids, then why are the kidspracticing? Right? That's,
that's what they're thinking.
You if you're, if you're askingthem to step outside of their
comfort zone, and you're notwilling to do that yourself, you
can't, you can't do that. So Imean, you can but it's not,
(20:51):
they're gonna, they're gonnapretend it's and close your
eyes. And you know, so theauthenticity is key. Create
setting up the environment iskey, very challenging in a
school. You're right. Lots oflots of interruptions in
schools, holy cow, but even moreof a reason to bring in
mindfulness, gettingadministration on board. So and
(21:11):
putting a sign outside of yourdoor. We are, you know,
mindfulness is practice beingpracticed here this morning,
please, please be quiet, I thinkis a great also. message for
students walking the halls thatthis is what we do here, like we
slow things down, okay? schoolschool is a place where we can
(21:33):
be calm and quiet and close oureyes, because it's a really
vulnerable position to be in.
Another little trick is gettingkids to like, turn and face the
wall. So they're not becausethey're teenagers are so
socially aware that theyactually cannot focus on their
meditation. So just removing allbarriers that they want to sit
in a chair, let them sit in achair. If they want to fidget
(21:53):
with something, let them fidgetwith something. It's all about
making them comfortable. As muchas possible, because facing
themselves is the biggest fear.
So just making that as comfy asyou can, too, for them to do
that hard work.
Matt Clarke (22:12):
Facing themselves as the biggest fear I like them.
I think that I mean, I thinkthat's teenagers and beyond
anybody sitting with yourself?
Yeah.
Randie Sykes (22:21):
Where am I going?
What do I have to do in fiveminutes? What do I do last
month? Oh, crap. 10 years ago, Idid that. Yeah, your brain is
like a monkey mind. And it'salways judging you. It's always
your internal critic is alwaysthere, whether we like it or
not.
Matt Clarke (22:37):
Well, thank you for spending some time and sitting
down. I feel like it's aproposto say that schools are a busy
place since you're literallybeing paged out of this meeting
to go to another meeting. Sowe'll leave it there. Thank you.
Heather Woods (22:55):
You've been listening to the SEL in Action
podcast. I want to thank ourguest interviewer Matt Clark,
and his colleague, Randy Sykes,for sharing their thoughts and
the research that Matt had done,as well as the experiences and
research that Randy has done onmindfulness in the classroom. I
(23:17):
hope that you learned a lot fromthis episode, and I hope we have
more of these guestpresentations as well. Feel free
to connect with Matt on socialmedia. His information is in the
show notes. As always, feel freeto connect with us at Sal in
action on Twitter, Facebook, andthe website and Instagram as
(23:39):
well. Thank you so much forlistening and we hope you have a
great day.
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