February 5, 2025 • 61 mins
How can unschooling create a safe and empowering educational path for children? In this episode, we talk with Essie Richards about her transformative journey from traditional schooling to unschooling in rural Cornwall, UK. Essie shares how her family chose this path after her son faced bullying, leading them to embrace self-directed education as a way to foster curiosity, confidence, and emotional well-being.
Our conversation delves into the principles of unschooling, focusing on its power to nurture children’s natural interests and foster stronger family connections. Essie discusses the role of respectful parenting in creating a supportive environment where children can thrive without the constraints of conventional schooling.
We also explore the practicalities of this lifestyle, from adjusting family routines to finding a community of like-minded parents, highlighting how unschooling can redefine education as a safe, fulfilling, and flexible process tailored to each child’s unique needs.
🗓️ Recorded January 27th, 2025. 📍Åmarksgård, Denmark
🔗 Relevant links
https://www.instagram.com/unschoolingcircle
https://www.instagram.com/essiejrichards
https://www.essierichardscoach.com
https://www.lunaragilelearningcentre.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:00):
Today we're together with Essie Richards and
we got a message from yousaying, hey, it could be cool
with a talk and appear on thepodcast.
So here you are.
First of all, welcome.
Essie Richards (00:14):
Thank you.
It's amazing that you said yes.
Thanks for having me.
Jesper Conrad (00:19):
So you are in the homeschooling, unschooling
world yourself.
How did that came to be in yourlife?
What happened?
How many kids, stuff like thatthe 200 questions, yeah that's
good, I like that.
Cecilie Conrad (00:35):
I think you're in England, right.
Essie Richards (00:37):
Yeah, I'm in Cornwall, so rural UK right at
the bottom, it almost doesn'tfeel like England.
It's a lot of Cornish peoplesay no, it's not.
England.
So it's really beautiful andit's far enough from cities to
feel like, yeah, you're in anice bit of wilderness, it's
gorgeous southwest right yeah,southwest, yeah, you spend a lot
(01:00):
of time in southeast and eastSussex.
Cecilie Conrad (01:03):
Yeah nice, I don't know how different the
nature is.
I think it's pretty parallel,yeah.
Essie Richards (01:09):
Yeah, it's amazing.
I wanted to move to New Zealandand my husband was like no,
it's too far.
So Cornwall felt like a reallygood compromise.
It's like that's the furthestpoint away from the middle of
England.
Cecilie Conrad (01:21):
Yeah, Stay on the island.
Essie Richards (01:24):
Yeah yeah, yeah, right, just about um.
We started unschooling about um.
It's about eight and a halfyears ago now.
I think I'm terrible with time.
I've got two kids who arenearly 15 and 11 and a half and
I think, like so many people, uh, our children said let's
(01:48):
unschool.
By how school just didn't workout for our eldest, um.
So the same story I've heard somany times this really bright,
animated, creative, wild littlecreature who just loved
everything went to school and wejust slowly started to see that
little light go out in his eyesand, um, he would come home,
(02:13):
you know, really distraught andin bits for hours and we finally
managed to understand that hewas getting bullied at school by
um, another little boy who wasprobably really distressed
himself, and we tried to partnerwith the school but the system
just didn't allow for that atall and we were like we have no
(02:35):
idea what we're doing.
We had never met anyone whohomeschooled.
I thought that meant I wasgoing to be chained to a desk
for like the next 18 years of mylife, but it felt like the only
option at that time.
So we just said look, he's notgoing back, that's just the
thing, and we'll just see whathappens, and we had just life
without school for six monthswhere we were just like let's
(02:57):
just give him time to recover.
And then I was like this isbrilliant, why are we doing
anything else?
And sort of went down a bit ofa rabbit hole, as you do, got on
the internet, looked athomeschooling how old was he?
He was, um, yeah, he was six,just about six, yeah, um, and
(03:20):
somehow found Pamela Rickier'spodcast, read about unschooling,
was like, oh my God, this is us, this is us.
And yeah, that was it really.
Cecilie Conrad (03:31):
I was just curious for how long he was in
school, because many countrieshave different definitions on
when school starts.
So when he was six, when did he?
Essie Richards (03:41):
go in.
Yeah, it starts so early here.
He was six.
When did he go in?
Yeah, it starts so early here.
Hey, I see the kids startschool and they just look like
tiny little creatures in thesegiant uniforms and you're like,
well, they're just babies.
Um, he started when he was fiveand he came out, yeah, like a
year and a half later.
I think it's about when he waswell.
Maybe he started when he wasfour and a half.
(04:01):
I'm terrible with time, but hewas there for reception, which
is like pre-year one.
So he did reception in year one.
He came out at the end of yearone, um, and we yeah, so
reception is usually you're fouror five years old four or five.
Yeah, I think he was about fourand a half yeah he was like call
(04:21):
that school, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (04:26):
Well, it's different.
Here in france they call itschool from three years old and
here we call it school from six.
It's just definition, but itmatters in the child's life.
How early do we start thecooking?
And, yeah, it matters in ourlife.
When do we think it's schooling, compared to nursery or
kindergarten, which is a more?
Jesper Conrad (04:48):
I don't know how it is today, but when we were
young, which is some years ago,then then it was called the
first class, which would becalled zero.
Today maybe would be called thekindergarten class.
People talked a a little aboutthe alphabet, but most of it was
just to getting into the habitof sitting down and shutting up,
(05:10):
I think.
Cecilie Conrad (05:11):
Yeah, having a backpack, having a pencil case,
having a packed lunch, listeningto the bell you have to go back
into the classroom when thebell rings, stuff like that.
So it was behavior only thefirst year and then the second
year they started the actuallaying with alphabet and that
(05:32):
and stuff.
Jesper Conrad (05:33):
yeah, I wanted to talk a little about bullying,
because you mentioned that asamong the causes for why you
took your son out.
I've looked into the numbersfrom time to time and I get
saddened, disheartened andsurprised every time.
I see the amount of people whosay they have been bullied.
(05:54):
And then you have severebullying, not severe bullying,
and then I'm also when I look atthe numbers I can't remember
them right now, but whateveramount it is that has been
bullied then there's also thebully yeah, and that's not nice
either, and and I have been,unfortunately, on both sides,
(06:16):
yeah.
And then, if I look back at whatI took part in against other
people, which I'm definitely notproud of, the excuses made from
adults and myself, or the storyyou spin is that it was child's
play.
We didn't mean anything by it,but that doesn't mean that
(06:38):
someone didn't went home and cryor had a shitty day.
So just the sheer amount ofacceptance going on in the
school, where bullying is seenupon as kind of a necessary evil
or there is a limit of accept,acceptance like it's okay with
(07:00):
this amount of bullying.
But if, if it's this amount,then we're trying to tone it
down and I mean I wouldn'taccept that I think it's really
wild.
Cecilie Conrad (07:10):
I think we've had a number of ones where some
schools so we're fromScandinavia Not that we live in
Scandinavia, but we're fromScandinavia and Scandinavia
holds this place in the world'sdiscourse on schooling to have
the best schools.
I think Finland is running withthe star at the moment.
(07:31):
They are doing very good, notthat I agree with schooling as
such, but do we have to haveschooling?
They are doing better than manyplaces and we had some numbers
running here where they didsomething to minimize the
bullying and it was success andthere was a lot of writing about
it in the newspapers and youknow, the government did really
(07:53):
well and we reduced the bullying.
And now it's down to and Imight be wrong, we might have to
look this up, but I think it'sdown to 15 percent of
schoolchildren who are beingbullied, to 15 percent of school
children were being bullied.
Hey, would you accept 15?
Essie Richards (08:11):
percent of your friends bullying you on a daily
basis?
Cecilie Conrad (08:13):
yeah, exactly it's crazy, it's wait a minute.
Is that success?
Yeah, like that's a good isthis where we stop and and we
pat ourselves on the shoulderand we think we're the best
countries in the world to makeschooling.
Essie Richards (08:25):
Yet 15 of the kids will go home with that
feeling yeah, yeah, it wasreally interesting to talk to
Theo as he got a bit older and abit of distance from the, from
the situation, because I mean,the thing that happened, that
was the last straw for us.
There were lots of straws, butthe last straw was when he
(08:45):
looked at me and he said mum,you're just not doing your job,
you're not keeping me safe, whyare you putting me there?
And I was like that's it.
Basically, how can I answerthat?
And he, about a year later Ithink, he said to me it wasn't
just that this little boy washurting me so he would strangle
(09:07):
him and he'd do it in blindspots of the playground quite
cleverly, obviously quite adistressed little, little lad.
Um, but my son, theo, he said,um, it wasn't just that, he said
it was everything.
It was the way the teachershouted at the kids, the way
they had favorites, the way thatthere were things that were
(09:27):
very confusing to me, why peoplegot punished for things and
some people didn't and somepeople did.
He said I couldn't make anysense of it and it just wasn't
safe.
Basically, the adults weren'tsafe.
When I told people I wasgetting hurt by this little boy,
they didn't look after me.
Um, actually what they did iswhen we said you have to do
(09:49):
something, you have a duty ofcare for a child, they, they sat
Theo on a bench, a very smallpart of the playground, and he
said you've got to stay there soyou don't get hurt by this
other little boy.
He can run around the wholeplayground with all of your
friends, but you sit here so wecan keep an eye on you.
So Theo was like and so then Iwas punished for, like, this
(10:11):
thing that was happening to me,and he said you know, basically
what he was describing is a verymessed up system that, to a
little boy who'd had quite astraightforward life with, you
know, a fair degree of respect,um had gone into this place.
That just was crazy and therules made no sense, there was
(10:32):
no logic, it was unfair, it wasunjust.
He saw his friends getting hurtand cry and you know he just he
would come home and just belike, please, I cannot go back
to that, and it was sointeresting to hear that from a
child's mouth.
You know, like, we know that,but when you see the lack of
(10:55):
sense and how that actuallyimpacts somebody, it's just,
yeah, it's just, it's reallyoutrageous.
Basically, yeah, it's just,yeah, it's just, it's really
outrageous, basically, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (11:06):
What's also interesting, I think, is how we
hold that idea.
We, the adults, because we wereschooled.
We rarely talk to adults whowere homeschooled, so I suppose
you weren't in school.
I was schooled yeah, most of uswere schooled.
Yeah, and we hold this ideathat this is a necessary evil.
(11:27):
This is a fact of life.
This is how it is, and youstart when you're three, four,
five, six something and uh, andthen it's confusing in the
beginning, but you figure it outand and then you spend your 10,
15, whatever I spent 23 yearsin school and then you come out
and then you're educated and youneed that.
(11:49):
Yay, we have that idea.
And at what point do we wake upand realize, oh, we don't have
to do that.
It's a little bit like we havethis idea.
You sleep in a bed, right?
So first time one of my friendssaid yeah, I threw out my bed,
(12:11):
I just I just have to take mysheepskin off the sofa and I
sleep on that and I really enjoyit.
I mean crazy.
And then another one.
He said to me yeah, I always do50 push-ups before I go to bed
because I have a hard timefalling asleep, and then I just
sleep on the floor, otherwise myback hurts before I go to bed
because I have a hard timefalling asleep and then I just
sleep on the floor, otherwise myback hurts so I use the bed
just to lay out my clothes and Ithought wait.
(12:33):
So I mean, there are manythings that are like that.
We think that's how it is yeahand the school is a big one.
Now that I talk about the beds,maybe it's not such a big deal
that some people choose to sleepin a different way.
You can get your head aroundthat.
You might think it's a littlebit crazy, but you're like
whatever.
But if you take your kids outof school, yeah, Everything
(12:57):
stops, yeah.
Essie Richards (13:00):
Yeah, because we're conditioned by the school
system, certainly in the UK,that if you don't, all these
terrible things are going tohappen.
They're going to fall behind,they're not going to learn how
to be amongst other people.
You know, you're building a rodfor their back.
Someone said that to me at thenursery that Theo went to.
You're what You're building arod for your own back.
(13:21):
Have you heard that sayingbefore?
Jesper Conrad (13:22):
Like having a straight back.
Yeah, like going to school,okay oh that's how you learned
it.
Cecilie Conrad (13:28):
So you're blowing your spine basically
because you kind of wait.
Essie Richards (13:32):
I think, if you, I think it's the opposite.
It makes no sense to me, butthey were basically like, if you
pick up Theo when he's cryingfrom nursery and take him home,
you're going to teach him thatthat's, that's what will happen.
And I was like, yeah, that's,yeah, that's like really good,
right, I'm sad my mummy comes.
And they were like, oh no, he'sgoing to do that every day.
(13:53):
And I was like, but if, but, ifhe wants to do that every day
because he needs his mummy, thenthat's great that he knows how
safe he is, that that's going tohappen.
They're like, oh well, he'sjust going to cry.
And I was like, what you know?
So before he even started,right, we were getting this sort
of fear.
Cecilie Conrad (14:10):
Yeah, they're right, right.
They're right to the respectthat you can condition the child
to learn that you know you'recompletely helpless, there's
nothing you can do about yoursituation, so there's no point
in complaining, right, exactlyit's back to front right.
Essie Richards (14:28):
It's crazy and I think you know.
And then you, you step outsidethat of construct.
We didn't even believe inschool.
We, you know, before we startedschool we were like we don't
believe in it as an institution,we don't like it.
My and I, we worked with youngpeople who were homeless, so
they'd had terrible lives andhad terrible experiences.
(14:50):
We had both had awfulexperiences at school.
We didn't believe in school atall, but we just didn't really
understand the other options.
And so we found this schoolthat we thought, yeah, we can
make this work.
Maybe it's something about us,maybe we're just a bit
hippie-ish or something.
Maybe we can work.
You know, we'll give it a goand it was.
(15:11):
It's so hard when you actuallysee the things that you had
already seen, but your childgoes no, it's really like this.
And it caused us to really lookat the things inside ourselves.
Like you know fear ofconfrontation, fear of authority
, fear of man, like for our son.
We got over that shit stand upto school and be like no, that's
(15:34):
not cool.
But what was so interesting washow there was so much blaming
of the victim, so much blamingon our parenting.
This is probably your parenting.
There's not really anythinghappening.
Um, you're probably not doingit right.
You're probably being too soft.
Theo's probably a bit strange.
Um, you know, it is reallyhorrifying.
Jesper Conrad (15:58):
I think there's an interesting subject to dive
into, which is resilience andhow.
How I think a lot of people useit wrong.
I think everybody, every parentout there, wants a child that,
when they come out into theworld, is secure, is standing on
(16:18):
a secure foundation of knowingyourself and that version of
resilience, yes, but I mean allthis.
Just brush it off, you will getstronger.
What doesn't kill you, hurt you, what doesn't hurt you.
(16:39):
What doesn't kill you.
What doesn't kill you?
Yeah, that's how it is.
What doesn't hurt you will killyou, yeah.
What doesn't kill you?
Yeah, that's how it is whatdoesn't hurt.
Cecilie Conrad (16:44):
you will kill you.
Jesper Conrad (16:45):
Yeah, what doesn't kill you will make you
stronger, but it will also hurtyou.
But it's not fun getting hurt.
Of course you can get strongerthrough it.
Of course you can grow out ofbullying and take something away
from it, but that's not how youmake strong people.
I don't believe that committed,but that's not how you make
(17:06):
strong people.
I don't believe that.
I believe that's how you makepeople who are fencing
themselves in and protectingthem against the world, and that
is not strength.
In my world, the strength shouldbe to be able to walk into the
world like you are.
And then what?
How do you handle meetingpeople who are not nice?
It's difficult because they areout there, and I take it
(17:29):
personally sometimes and I canget sad if people are weird
around me.
But I think the best we can dofor our kids is let them grow up
in a caring, loving atmosphere.
Them grow up in in, in a caring, loving atmosphere, where we,
(17:49):
if they say it's not fun this,then just then.
Don't just retort to.
You will get stronger.
You'll just get up on the horseagain, get on and don't cry.
You're a boy and all this stuff.
Essie Richards (17:57):
that was more common when we were young yeah
yeah, yeah yeah, because whatyou're doing is you're teaching
kids or people to deny parts ofthemselves, like I'm really
hurting right now, no, you'renot, okay, I has pushed that
down and and deny that.
And you're teaching them themessages that when I'm
(18:20):
struggling and I share that withsomebody, they're not going to
listen, so so I just won't dothat.
So you're teaching them allthese strange rules about
connection and community andsurvival and you know like
things that you just totallyhave to unlearn throughout your
whole adult If you want to haveany sort of authentic connection
with people, or else you'rejust living out of all these
(18:43):
wounds.
So many of them happen, youknow, at school.
It's, yeah, it's so interesting.
Cecilie Conrad (18:51):
I just wanted to say that.
That circles us back to thequestion at what point is it we
stop?
Yeah, think that this is a goodthing, that this is an axiom,
that this is how it has to be,that this is how it has to be,
that this is just part of life.
We have to do that, just likewe have to sleep.
We need a bed, otherwise wecan't sleep.
(19:11):
We kind of need a school,otherwise our kids can't grow up
.
And at what point do we stop?
Because we all know it hurts.
Essie Richards (19:21):
We all know it sucks.
Cecilie Conrad (19:23):
We all know that the stories are about how the
you know the fictive stories andthe movies and the children's
books how kids hate school.
We all agree with that.
Everybody hates it.
Most people hate it to someextent and most people, if you
talk to them, were hurt by it.
Somehow they will tell youthese stories if you talk to
them as adults.
(19:43):
That hurt and they got hurt andthey had to work with that
trauma to get over it to have agood life after.
So my question is what?
What happened?
I mean, I heard your story.
What's stopped you, your childsaying I'm not safe.
Why are you putting me there?
(20:04):
It's your job to keep me safe.
You're my mom and I'm not safe.
Why are you putting me there?
It's your job to keep me safe.
You're my mom and I'm not safe.
So that was maybe you're likestacking on other things.
I get that and because you arewho you are, something stopped
you and we have a parallel story, basically, and and now we have
listeners to this podcast whomight actually have kids in
(20:26):
school and the question is whendo we stop and question the root
problem?
When do we stop and questionthe everything of this child's
life?
Could this be different.
Why are we doing this?
Is it right?
Is it true they need the schoolto grow up?
Why do we go so far?
(20:47):
Why do we put the kids therefor a year and a half?
Why do we put them the next day, the first time they tell us
that they got good?
Why do we take them back?
That's so.
I mean it hurts to ask thequestion, but it's strange
strange isn't it?
if they were at a playground,let's say, and there was some
(21:08):
rough surface somewhere, somereally unsafe swing, that kind
of always would unhinge and theywould fall into a pond and
almost drown, we would never goto that playground again and we
would complain, yeah, but in theschool we put them back, even
though we know they get hurt.
Why do we do that?
Essie Richards (21:31):
it's so, so complex.
There's so many reasons, right?
I mean, there's some people whojust have to because their
whole child care is based aroundschool and they just don't have
choices.
And that's really painful andreally hard.
And the system's created aroundthat, right to keep people in
school so that children can gothrough school and be workforce
(21:51):
ready, right, we understand thatthe system is created and
designed for that and it's it'sdesigned to make it very hard
for people to live without it.
You know, financially it'sreally really difficult to live
without school.
You're unsupported.
If you're a single person,that's really tough, you know.
(22:14):
If you're then on a one income,that's it's harder.
It's harder unless you're in afortunate position, you know,
where one of you's earning quitewell.
So financially it is harder tolive without school, definitely.
You know we've made lots ofsacrifices which we would make
over and over and over and overagain, but it the reality is it
(22:36):
is harder.
And then there's conditioningsome people are just so
entrenched in.
I think we were lucky becausewe were already, you know, had
deconstructed a lot of thisstuff.
I'm neurodivergent, so I wouldalways see through the system of
things anyway.
It didn't really make sense tome.
(22:56):
I don't have respect forauthority I never have had it
just because I'm supposed tohave it, whereas I see other
people that abide by those rulesof society where you're
supposed to respect people inauthority and they do.
That's just what they do, andit's very jarring to hear that
someone's not doing that topeople, and so their tolerance
(23:19):
for school is going to be muchgreater than mine was, which was
pretty small really.
Going to be much greater thanmine was, which was pretty it
was pretty small really.
I've also met quite a fewpeople who you know, even if
they've been wounded by schooland their families, they still
think that it did them good.
You know they haven't kind of.
Jesper Conrad (23:39):
I think that's an interesting thing.
If you do something over, over,over and over and, over and
over and over, then it's verydifficult to stop up and say, oh
, I shouldn't have done that,not to try to make sense of the
(24:00):
choices we have made.
You could turn it around andsay, as we are doing, we are
making sense of the choices wehave made and is arguing that
they were the right choices.
And if I have had a child inschool for that long time, I
would argue that it was theright thing to do and see how
well it went for her and stufflike that, because it is very
(24:24):
difficult to, to, to grow andand say out stuff loud that we
are sad that we have done um butisn't it also a good thing to
look at the bright side ofthings?
yeah, yeah yeah, focus on thepositive yeah, of course,
because you can't't change whatyou have done.
So we can only grow from thepast.
Cecilie Conrad (24:49):
But there's also the present.
Let's say we had our kids inschool and it was a wobbly thing
.
I would still say it's a goodthing to focus on the positive.
It's just at some point maybe'snot, yeah at some point I'm
reconditioning myself.
At some point I'm lying tomyself.
Jesper Conrad (25:09):
Yeah yeah, I like .
We have just been in the inengland for from three months
during the fall wonderful longtime to see and explore the
country, and one of the thingsyou get to see is this, and I
will make fun of england is likeparents being like nah, I want
my kid to grow up to beindividual and learn a lot.
(25:32):
Here's a school uniform so youlook exactly like everyone else.
I know, right, it baffled theshit out of me.
I mean how was the uniform theuniform for us?
Cecilie Conrad (25:42):
I don't understand it.
Jesper Conrad (25:44):
I don't understand that people don't
scream when they put their childin a uniform and they're like
now you can be individual,together with all the rest who
look exactly like you.
Oh, how was it if you have thisaversion towards school and
then putting your child in auniform and you've been raised
to be like this is a proudmoment how was it to do that?
Essie Richards (26:09):
well, it wasn't a proud moment for me at all.
Um, I've always been a littlebit of a had a different
perspective, I guess, and youknow I didn't like it.
It didn't feel good to me eventhen.
You know point, I felt the kindof stripping away of their
(26:47):
ability to be able to expressthemselves, whether they wanted
to or not.
Um, and you know, certainly formy son that was really
important, what he wore, how hefelt in those clothes, sensory
wise, was really important.
And, um, there were bits of himthat were kind of excited, like
oh, I've got this uniform, andlike you know, um, but he'd
(27:08):
always wear like funny littlesocks to kind of like have a his
own little expression going on.
And, yeah, I didn't like it.
It felt like a little, it feltlike putting them in a little
army uniform or something.
Jesper Conrad (27:21):
It felt very odd to me it makes me remind where
you did a wonderful choice.
But when we graduate highschool in Denmark we buy a
really ugly hat.
No one likes to have on formore than that week after and
everybody say congratulationsand it's kind of army kind of
style and I really hated it andI have a big ass head so I
(27:44):
couldn't find one that fit andit looked really terrible at me.
But at the same time you havebeen told during those three
years oh here, this is the hatyou wear when you are proud and
finished.
And my wife were more aware ofherself than I was at that time.
Cecilie Conrad (28:01):
I wanted the exam because I wanted to go to
university, and that was theonly reason I was in what you
call high school.
Yeah, yeah.
No, you don't call it highschool in England, that's
American.
Anyway, we needed thispreparation course.
Everyone takes some version ofit.
I did it because I wanted to goto university and it's the only
way to get in in our country.
I didn't get it to get a hat.
Jesper Conrad (28:23):
No, I was pretty clear on that.
Cecilie Conrad (28:27):
Yeah, so I got into university, so mission
accomplished.
Jesper Conrad (28:31):
Oh yes.
Cecilie Conrad (28:32):
Yeah.
Jesper Conrad (28:34):
How you said, when you put your son to school,
you slowly saw the lightdwindle and then he felt
insecure about the, the bullying.
How, how was it to take him outand and see him grow in the
last eight years?
Essie Richards (28:49):
uh, they might it was quite a ride yeah, I mean
, initially, that first sixmonths was beautiful.
It was like, oh my god, we gotour boy back.
It was so nice and it was solovely.
And there was, you know, justthe pressure.
You know, because it was veryhard to get him to go to school
as well he was.
You know, it was painful, he'dbe crying and I would just be in
(29:11):
bits like what the fuck am Idoing?
You know, like this isridiculous, this is insane, like
this does not feel good in anywhich way.
Um, yeah, so it was a bigrelief to not have to deal with
all of that and to see him justchilled out and happy and
playing, and um, and then webecause we were decided to not
(29:35):
go back to school and I, youknow, I wasn't going to work, we
had to leave London, so thatwas quite a big move.
Um, and while he was at school,he had had about three hours in
the evening just these violentkind of outbursts where I think
he was just processing all ofthis shit that had gone on in
(29:55):
the day.
It was terrible, we didn't knowwhat to do.
You know, we would just holdhim as lovingly as we could, but
I mean he would just be sayingthis stuff and he'd be drawing
these pictures with like peoplestabbing each other and, you
know, it was it, in a way, sogood that he could express it
and get it out.
But we were like, oh my god,what is happening, what is going
(30:17):
on?
And, um, that didn't.
That stopped in the first sixmonths but then, after we moved,
it started again and we werelike, what, what, what are we
doing?
And at that point I wastraining to be have you heard of
like hand in hand parenting?
It's like, um, it's kind oflike a really beautiful way to
(30:39):
support parents when they gettriggered by their parenting
journey.
So, giving them space to sortof process their big feelings,
so that they can be more presentfor their kids when their kids
are having big feelings, it'sreally beautiful.
Um, and uh, yeah, so I wastraining to be a consultant for
for them at the time and luckily, I got to speak to some of
(31:03):
their people who had, like youknow, been around for ages, and
I was like, what is going on?
What are we doing wrong?
What's this all about?
And they were really supportive.
Um, looking back, what I can seehad happened was that he was
just really burnt out.
He was just so burnt out fromschool trauma but you know he
(31:24):
hasn't had a diagnosis but Isuspect he was also burnt out
neurodivergently as well, justby the over stimulation of being
in school.
And so when we moved here, wehad a couple of years where he
refused to do anything.
He got really into gaming,which was beautiful.
He began this beautiful,incredible relationship with
(31:47):
gaming and but that was good forus because it threw us right
into the pit of fear that weneeded to work through right.
It was just like we didn't evenhave a telly before we moved to
Cornwall and now our son islike gaming 24 7, doesn't want
to leave the house, only wantsto eat beige food.
And we were like, oh my god,it's a difficult one it was hard
(32:11):
.
It was hard but so good it was.
I think I don't know.
Maybe I'm the sort of personthat needs it to be quite
extreme to push them to makethem look at all of their stuff,
and it certainly did that.
It was really de-schooling 101.
But he was burnt out and he wasalso really upset that we'd
(32:33):
moved here and you know wehadn't understood anything about
respectful parenting, we justknew how we didn't want to do it
.
We were trying to clobber out anew version, but we hadn't been
very great at the way that we'dmoved.
We'd sort of gone oh we're goingon a great big adventure, it's
going to be brilliant, insteadof saying how do you feel about
(32:53):
this?
What would that be like for you?
How can we make it easier?
This is the reason, you know,we didn't do any of that.
We were just like it's going tobe amazing, we'll buy you a
scooter and it's gonna be great.
Just denied his feelings.
So it just added school trauma,neurodivergent, burnout, total
lack of autonomy and disrespectfor his process and he was just
(33:15):
like I'm just gonna do thisthing that I can control, that,
I can win at that, I can feelsafe at that, I can control that
, I can win at that, I can feelsafe at that, I can choose to
stop and start.
And he was just like that wasit for like two years.
So that was hard, it was prettybrutal.
And then he started to kind of,you know, take steps out of
(33:39):
that and go to like littlethings and meet little friends
and stuff like that, and I meanit's it's kind of a long journey
.
Our journey is a long journeybecause that coincided with as
we de-schooled.
I think this happens to a lot ofpeople.
You start by de-schooling, sortof like this outer conditioning
, don't you around education andinstitutions, all that stuff,
(34:04):
learning, parenting and thenit's like, oh, now I'm gonna
look at all these things withinmyself, all these limits, all
this pain, all this stuff, why Ibehave like that?
You learn about autonomy,consent, respect, trust.
I'm like I want to trust mykids.
Oh, my god, I don't trustmyself.
(34:24):
And that threw me into a reallysort of deep healing crisis.
So I I had CPTSD, which I'd hada lot of therapy around, but I
think a little bit like we weretalking about with school.
I'd had intense therapy but itgot me to the point where I
could function and that was goodenough in the eyes of the NHS
(34:49):
and I thought that was as goodas it got.
So I was just like this is asgood as it gets.
I better just like do what Ican with this.
But then we entered thisbeautiful, authentic, deep
journey into de-schooling and Iwas just like this isn't as good
as it can get, like I need tounderstand and experience all
(35:09):
these things for myself.
So I started a journey ofsomatic experiencing therapy,
which was quite brutal withyoung children, and it wasn't
really a chosen thing.
It was kind of something I hadto do in order to continue, you
know, living really.
It got to that point.
So Theo now had to see his mamago through, you know, two years
(35:34):
intense pain, yeah yeah, Ithink it's really difficult.
Jesper Conrad (35:40):
Growing up as a person, and I mean it was
somehow easier to just have yourkids in kindergarten and you go
to work and then someone elsehave decided what is good, and I
think there is for me I thinkit's very difficult because you
(36:00):
start questioning everythingperiod, and I went through
everything is wrong with thesociety, but also like I love
the society, and then you startgoing into a oh, should I work
on myself?
And no, I shouldn't.
Where do I?
(36:21):
start no, but that's also like a, the base of just getting life
to run.
You don't need to, I don't wantin.
In danish we would call itpoking your navel.
Uh, I don't know.
Essie Richards (36:34):
You have the same expression in english I
think it's interesting what yousaid about like you know, you
couldn't afford to navel, gazeand and, and I think that is
true.
But I think some people can'tafford not to like.
That was my experience.
I couldn't afford not to likedo that.
I wanted to be here for my kids.
(36:54):
I wanted to like, not pretendto have relationships.
That was super.
You know, superficially I couldmanage to hear, but underneath
I'm like suffering.
I was like I want the realthing, like you know, geez, like
I'm not going to pretend, andso I couldn't afford not to do
that work.
I didn't particularly want to,but and I think I've seen I've
(37:14):
seen that with a lot of peoplethat I think maybe unschooling
is quite attractive.
It sort of magnetizes peoplewho want authenticity, who are
sick of, like, thesuperficiality of stuff and the
lack of community and the lackof understanding what it really
feels like to be in their bodiesand in connection with people.
(37:38):
I think it really attractspeople like that who are willing
to do that it.
I think it's quite brave work.
You know, unschooling I don'tthink it's for the um
faint-hearted.
You know you've got to reallybe prepared to take stuff apart
and really look at it and thinkdo I want that?
Or if not, how am I going tomove through all that stuff to
(38:01):
get to the other side?
It's?
I don't know.
Has that been your experience?
Cecilie Conrad (38:07):
it clearly unravels a lot of stuff.
I feel like we were prettyradical before, but of course
this was taking it to what mostpeople would say, the extreme
level.
Um, I'm just wondering if ithas to be like that.
I don't really know.
(38:27):
I can, I can talk from myperspective and the people I met
and there are just some peoplewho don't really take no for an
answer, who don't really.
If someone says to you that ishow it is they're like, but does
it have to be like that, or areyou sure, or is it always like
that?
Do I have to live with that umwho are more ambitious on a
(38:51):
personal level, um who just willnot like accept the cap and say
why, why did you put a capthere?
What if I want more?
or less, who also take you know,they're not like just
functioning in there who willalways try to do a little bit
(39:13):
better or explore and try to dosomething new.
There are some people who liketo do what they always did and
cook the potatoes exactly likegrandmother did, and you know.
But there some people who liketo do what they always did and
cook the potatoes exactly likegrandmother did.
But there are people who enjoythat.
I think I'm just not like thatand I don't have any friends who
are like that, and my husbandis very much not like that.
So, yes, it attracts peoplelike you described, but it also
(39:40):
attracts, I think, people whoare, or maybe at least it feeds
that part of your personalitythat really wants to question
things and that really wants tobe ambitious and that can always
come up with the question couldwe do this a little bit better?
Could we do this a little bitin a more fun way, in a more
(40:01):
beautiful way?
In a more fun way, in a morebeautiful way, in a more
efficient way?
Um, and of course you're right.
First we do the deconstructionof the world around us and a lot
of new ones.
Schoolers have a lot of socialcritique and critique about the
society and they talk about thehistory of schooling and we go
(40:22):
back to Germany and theVolksschule, all these things,
and I've done that, I still doit sometimes and it's fine.
And then you take it to theother level, where it's oh, but
what about my life, my family,my culture, my local community?
What happened in in me and how?
How do I arrive at theauthentic point of view.
(40:44):
Can I question my own way Ifunction, and I think your rant
started at a point of and wewe've talked about that many
times how, yeah, but we alsohave to stop at some point.
We, we also have to just cookthe potatoes, take out the
Hoover, call grandma, take outthe trash, make the money, pay
(41:09):
the insurance, move on, watchthe movie.
Sometimes it's not a process,sometimes it's just life, and
sometimes we just need to getthings done and we need to get
over ourselves.
And it's not about me, it'sactually about changing that
diaper, washing those clothes,brushing the teeth, doing the
(41:32):
things.
My point is there is apractical level to being a
parent and to being anunschooling parent as well, and
sometimes just do the work.
I think that's where you'relike.
I don't have to go out and makesome money.
I have to.
You know I have my end ofthings I have to do and you know
, suck it up and do it.
Jesper Conrad (41:53):
What I actually think could be fun was to turn
back time, clone me and see oneguy not going on as an
unschooling parent and then theother going as an unschooling
parent and then seeing howdifferent would I have been
because sliding doors yeah,because in reality, maybe all
(42:18):
these experience I'm goingthrough and maybe I praise
unschooling and the choosing ofnot school more than it needs,
maybe it's just part of becominga 50 and being a parent and you
learn by being a parent, so soI I maybe would I have been
different maybe you've got.
Essie Richards (42:39):
Maybe you've got a bit beyond.
I certainly feel like nowunschooling isn't something we
do.
I don't even really think aboutit or talk about it.
Really, it's sort of like justa way of being, like actually,
theo has now chosen to go toschool, but we're still
unschooling, like that hasn'tchanged anything, whatever they
do.
It's just.
It's really more about the waywe relate to people and I think
(43:02):
that's the luxury of being alittle bit further along, like
being 50, having maybe olderkids.
You've been through, you'vedone like that really hardcore
work right, and you don't haveto think about it so much.
But I think there's a timewhere you have to think about it
a lot, to wrap your little headaround what, what, what is this
we're doing?
You know it's.
Cecilie Conrad (43:23):
It takes a lot but I think in our life, the
life we share, it's also aquestion of it changes.
So, of course, unschooling tookcenter stage when that was the
new thing, the new shiny objectand and we had to like wrap our
heads around what are we doing?
And it took some time, and Istill sometimes have to stop and
(43:46):
think about what are we doingin these regions.
They will always be relevant.
Obviously, we don't get up inthe morning and not go to school
.
That's not what we're doing.
It hasn't been for more than 10years.
School that's not what we'redoing.
It hasn't been for more than 10years.
It's.
It's not a thing any longer wetalk about on the podcast, talk
(44:08):
about when we meet new people,but we, we don't think about it
that much.
Obviously, I think that that'sa few years down the line you
stop thinking about it.
But then it's other things.
Then we move, move on.
Then we start questioning otherthings.
We start questioning oh, do wehave to live in a house?
Yeah, do we have to live in thesame place?
(44:29):
Is it a university degree,something you have to take on a
university?
Do we have to eat like this?
Do we have to?
You know, do I have to feelthis way, it changes.
But the base idea of thequestioning and the I want to
say ambition I don't know ifit's the right word actually,
(44:51):
but this, you know, pushing thisI'm not settling.
You know, I will always try todo it a little bit better.
It can annoy my children andpotentially my husband.
Could we do a little more?
Could we do it do a little more?
Could we do it a little faster?
Could we do it a little better?
Jesper Conrad (45:08):
and it's a wonderful balance between
wanting to push life and get themost out of it without being
unsatisfied with what youachieve.
That that's a wonderful balance, then, that I think we have
learned to master, and I stillquestion myself if I push for
this and I want this thing overhere, do I remember to be
(45:31):
grateful for where I am?
Yeah, but I know if I'm notpushing, I would maybe go into
like a stalemate of just routine.
And there's a graffiti artistin Denmarkmark and he have made
like with big ass white letterson a wall.
In the translation it's anxietymarinated everyday routines,
(45:55):
big letters on a whole wall, andI I love it because that is
what terrifies me to makeeveryday routines based on a
deep, deep fear in my life of Ineed to do it like this,
otherwise stuff will break.
I won't be satisfied.
I love that graffiti artist.
I want to hunt him down andinterview him at some point.
Essie Richards (46:17):
I think like that thing, though.
I think once you'vedeconstructed something, whether
it's education or faith or raceor whatever, you have this sort
of blueprint, don't you?
And then you seem to justcertainly it's been my
experience like then I seem toapproach everything with that
posture of like curiosity andwanting to look at it from every
(46:37):
angle and just be like, oh,maybe there's a different way if
that doesn't feel great ordoesn't work for people or and I
love, I love that, I love itjust doesn't have to be that way
if it's not working.
Like I was gonna say before,when we're talking about school.
So I have a, an agile learningcenter which is, um, it's really
(47:01):
interesting because we set itup for unschoolers, right to
build community for unschoolers.
We're in rural Cornwall,there's not a whole lot of
unschoolers, so I was likeperfect, we'll do this and
that'll be a way of meetingpeople and actually the majority
of people there are kids thatare unable to thrive in school.
So they've, their parents havegot a breaking point.
(47:23):
Their children just can't goanymore, and I'd say pretty much
everyone at Luna isneurodivergent if they've got a
diagnosis or they're in theprocess of it.
So there's that element thatthe school environment really
doesn't work for mostneurodivergent children.
So they're like the canary inthe coal mine.
You know they're the first tolike go no, and so they end up
(47:47):
at Luna.
And that's really interestingto me because over the last two
years I've seen parents battlingfor support, financial support
from the local authority to lookafter their kids, to get what
they need and stuff, and oftenthey have to go to tribunal to
(48:08):
fight for it and things likethis.
The local authority now areseeing these kids leaving school
in droves, like they just can'tdeny it.
It's not the odd one.
I think it's got worse sinceCOVID because people realise, oh
, actually, maybe life withoutschool isn't so bad right.
Actually, maybe life withoutschool isn't so bad right.
(48:30):
Um, but instead of schoolsaying well, kind of what they
have done, the local authoritiessaid, huh, luna seems to be
providing support to these kids.
They went, made us go throughthis quite laborious process and
they pay a higher rate for kidsto come.
So they've sort of said it's analternative provision, it's
certified an alternativeprovision.
But instead of saying, thegovernment now saying oh wow,
(48:55):
school really isn't working fora lot of children, a lot of
children seem to be leaving.
What do we need to do to makeus better?
Maybe we could get the kids andthe parents together, teachers
together, and make some changesso that this environment help
the children to thrive.
No, they don't do that becausethey aren't.
(49:16):
They don't have a root of loveand care, they have a root of
fear and control.
So the only thing that theyknow how to do is to control
people and fear and makeeverything fear induced.
So what they're doing now isthey're saying oh my god, all
these kids are leaving.
What are we going to do?
How are we going to get themback in?
Oh, we're going to bring out anew bill and make places like
(49:40):
luna impossible and illegal, sothey can't exist, and then those
kids will have to go back toschool.
We're so clever, you know yeah,has it been.
Jesper Conrad (49:50):
Has the bill been approved?
I know our friend randall isfighting a good fight it's a lot
of people are fighting it atthe moment.
Essie Richards (49:59):
And places like luna.
There's a lot of places likeluna, the Agile Learning Center
writing in, you know evidence.
Jesper Conrad (50:06):
Has it been approved or not yet?
Essie Richards (50:07):
No, not yet.
Jesper Conrad (50:10):
No, no, but it is the challenge that a lot of
places face, and I mean, there'scountries where it's even
illegal.
It's illegal right but what.
I like is to take inspirationfrom our talk we had recently
with Peter Gray, who say theyare up to around 8% now that is
being homeschooled, and as thatis growing, then everyone knows
(50:32):
someone who is homeschooled.
And then there is this pointwhere the tipping point, where
it is not strange.
It is not weird, everyone hasseen someone do it.
So the choice will be easierand I'm not fearful for the
future because I live in thisfocus of sharing the information
and helping to get closer tothe tipping point.
(50:55):
When we started in Denmark, wewere around 10 families maybe,
and now there's hundreds InDenmark.
Essie Richards (51:02):
It's still below 1%, I presume, but we are
getting there, we're pushing,and then the world will follow,
I believe yeah, I mean you haveto keep imagining, right, you
have to keep reimagining and,like the thing you were talking
about, like you know, begrateful and not just sort of
like, be complacent, so keepmoving forward but be grateful
(51:23):
for where it is.
And I think, yeah, we need toget really informed by what um
is going on, but keepreimagining, like what it can be
, and see the ridiculousness ofand the futility of that way of
being.
It's just not, you know, it'snot, it's not, it's not going to
last, it can't.
Cecilie Conrad (51:42):
Like, you know it can't, it's just getting more
and more crazy maybe the goodpart about that bill pushing
everyone back into the schoolsystem will be that it will be
so much clearer that it doesn'twork.
Yeah, if you have all theselittle loopholes, these little
(52:04):
ways of solving the problem, thecanary um, everyone else have
to survive being in the minesyeah, whereas if the canaries
just keep dying in there and Isuffer for all the kids who have
to go to school every day, Idon't think it's a good thing.
But if we are looking at thebright side, then maybe that
(52:26):
will be what makes it fall apart, what makes people take their
kids out of school, and I, Itotally, and I mean, if it's
enough kids, then our society atsome point will have to come up
with something, I suppose, um,to provide for those who are not
in school.
At some point, the librarieswill change and be more learning
(52:51):
center-ish maybe.
We have structures for this, wehave museums, we have libraries,
we have sports facilities witha lot of space and options for
everyone, including children whodo not spend their days in
schools, and lots of these areowned by local governments.
So this could change and becomesomething that is.
(53:16):
I mean, our kids have been iceskating while we've been in
Denmark in a professional iceskating ring where you know it's
play the ice hockey and stufflike that.
They do the dances, but from 12to 3 30 every day it's open for
the public.
But who's that?
Yeah, who is it who is actuallyagreed to ice skate because
(53:40):
it's only weekdays?
Yeah, as it is open for thepublic.
There is a facility forhomeschoolers now, which is, in
our little country, amazing, andwhat I'm trying to say is maybe
we don't need all theindividual kids to have their or
(54:02):
not have their, or have tofight for their diagnosis, and
every private individual familysay oh, I lost my income, you
have to help me.
Maybe we have to set up a wholesociety that's ready for
families for whatever reason.
We don't have to be victims tochoose to homeschool.
We don't have to have anythingwrong quote, unquote with us to
(54:23):
choose to homeschool.
We don't have to have anythingwrong quote unquote with us to
choose to homeschool.
We just choose this and oursociety is ready for it because
we have and we do have, we livein fairly rich countries we do
have a library we can go to.
I mean, it's not like it's notthere and in our country it's
still free.
So there are some things, andmaybe pushing the kids back into
(54:46):
the schools, pushing thefamilies to take the kids out of
the schools, but holding on tothe responsibility at home.
Now it's my problem.
Problem quote unquote will, ifwe get to a tipping point,
enough families doing this willchange the society instead,
(55:07):
which I think is better.
I mean, I'm not against youragile learning center, obviously
, but I'm just saying yeah it'sway better, it's more accessible
, it's more available.
Essie Richards (55:19):
It's just normal .
It's already there, normal,right, it's just normal.
That's the thing.
Because people always say, oh,oh, my gosh, it's so amazing,
this environment, what.
It's just normal.
That's the thing.
It's because people always say,oh, oh, my gosh, it's so
amazing this environment, whatit's doing for the children, and
we're like it's not really likewe're doing anything right,
we're just being normal.
What our new normal is, andthat's just like the basic.
(55:39):
For me it doesn't feel thatamazing actually, because we
don't have a whole lot ofcapacity and resources to really
make it amazing.
But the but the basics is feelsamazing because, comparatively,
when you have an environmentfull of concern and respect and
trust and self-direction,comparatively that feels amazing
(56:00):
.
But I can see that will becomethe new normal because, like you
say, more and more people arehearing about it and
understanding it and I meet moreand more families.
I find this so exciting thatdidn't have to go to a crisis
point to then go oh, there'sunschooling.
They're like hang on a minute,we're already respectfully
(56:22):
parenting.
School just does not align withour values.
What should we do?
Oh, we're going to unschool andthey, they don't even get to
that point.
So already these are, you know,like people that I meet in the
unschooling community that Ihost.
They're like in their 30s andthey're only so.
They're only like 20 yearsyounger than me, but they're way
(56:42):
ahead of the game.
You know, like, and I'm like,yes, what's the next like.
And all our kids, you know, allour kids.
They're not going to have towade through this shit, it's,
it's already creating a newnormal, isn't?
Cecilie Conrad (56:55):
it.
Jesper Conrad (56:55):
It's unlikely we will have grandchildren in and I
think that it's a wonderfulplace to start.
I think that what you're doing,what we're doing, what a lot of
people before us have done, issharing about the opportunity of
(57:16):
choosing something else, ofgoing down the path of what
feels right for us, and I thinkwe should all just share it with
the world so more could beinspired.
There's a small quote from aguy called Ross Jackson I've
worked together with, who havebeen in the ecovillage movement
for 40 plus years and he's like83 now.
(57:39):
He said when he looks back atall the ecovillages out there,
the ones that survived was theones that didn't fought against
but fought for something, andthat is what I'm trying to do.
In the start I was againsteverything because I was like
needed a mental cross to stepout of the everyday norm, but
(58:00):
now I stand for something andhopefully more can choose this
way.
Essie Richards (58:04):
So thanks a lot for your time.
Jesper Conrad (58:06):
It was a pleasure talking with you.
Essie Richards (58:07):
Thanks so much for having me.
It's been lovely to meet youguys.
You're doing great things.
Thank you Likewise.
Cecilie Conrad (58:13):
It's been fun.
Today we're together with Essie Richards and
we got a message from yousaying, hey, it could be cool
with a talk and appear on thepodcast.
So here you are.
First of all, welcome.
Essie Richards (00:14):
Thank you.
It's amazing that you said yes.
Thanks for having me.
Jesper Conrad (00:19):
So you are in the homeschooling, unschooling
world yourself.
How did that came to be in yourlife?
What happened?
How many kids, stuff like thatthe 200 questions, yeah that's
good, I like that.
Cecilie Conrad (00:35):
I think you're in England, right.
Essie Richards (00:37):
Yeah, I'm in Cornwall, so rural UK right at
the bottom, it almost doesn'tfeel like England.
It's a lot of Cornish peoplesay no, it's not.
England.
So it's really beautiful andit's far enough from cities to
feel like, yeah, you're in anice bit of wilderness, it's
gorgeous southwest right yeah,southwest, yeah, you spend a lot
(01:00):
of time in southeast and eastSussex.
Cecilie Conrad (01:03):
Yeah nice, I don't know how different the
nature is.
I think it's pretty parallel,yeah.
Essie Richards (01:09):
Yeah, it's amazing.
I wanted to move to New Zealandand my husband was like no,
it's too far.
So Cornwall felt like a reallygood compromise.
It's like that's the furthestpoint away from the middle of
England.
Cecilie Conrad (01:21):
Yeah, Stay on the island.
Essie Richards (01:24):
Yeah yeah, yeah, right, just about um.
We started unschooling about um.
It's about eight and a halfyears ago now.
I think I'm terrible with time.
I've got two kids who arenearly 15 and 11 and a half and
I think, like so many people, uh, our children said let's
(01:48):
unschool.
By how school just didn't workout for our eldest, um.
So the same story I've heard somany times this really bright,
animated, creative, wild littlecreature who just loved
everything went to school and wejust slowly started to see that
little light go out in his eyesand, um, he would come home,
(02:13):
you know, really distraught andin bits for hours and we finally
managed to understand that hewas getting bullied at school by
um, another little boy who wasprobably really distressed
himself, and we tried to partnerwith the school but the system
just didn't allow for that atall and we were like we have no
(02:35):
idea what we're doing.
We had never met anyone whohomeschooled.
I thought that meant I wasgoing to be chained to a desk
for like the next 18 years of mylife, but it felt like the only
option at that time.
So we just said look, he's notgoing back, that's just the
thing, and we'll just see whathappens, and we had just life
without school for six monthswhere we were just like let's
(02:57):
just give him time to recover.
And then I was like this isbrilliant, why are we doing
anything else?
And sort of went down a bit ofa rabbit hole, as you do, got on
the internet, looked athomeschooling how old was he?
He was, um, yeah, he was six,just about six, yeah, um, and
(03:20):
somehow found Pamela Rickier'spodcast, read about unschooling,
was like, oh my God, this is us, this is us.
And yeah, that was it really.
Cecilie Conrad (03:31):
I was just curious for how long he was in
school, because many countrieshave different definitions on
when school starts.
So when he was six, when did he?
Essie Richards (03:41):
go in.
Yeah, it starts so early here.
He was six.
When did he go in?
Yeah, it starts so early here.
Hey, I see the kids startschool and they just look like
tiny little creatures in thesegiant uniforms and you're like,
well, they're just babies.
Um, he started when he was fiveand he came out, yeah, like a
year and a half later.
I think it's about when he waswell.
Maybe he started when he wasfour and a half.
(04:01):
I'm terrible with time, but hewas there for reception, which
is like pre-year one.
So he did reception in year one.
He came out at the end of yearone, um, and we yeah, so
reception is usually you're fouror five years old four or five.
Yeah, I think he was about fourand a half yeah he was like call
(04:21):
that school, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (04:26):
Well, it's different.
Here in france they call itschool from three years old and
here we call it school from six.
It's just definition, but itmatters in the child's life.
How early do we start thecooking?
And, yeah, it matters in ourlife.
When do we think it's schooling, compared to nursery or
kindergarten, which is a more?
Jesper Conrad (04:48):
I don't know how it is today, but when we were
young, which is some years ago,then then it was called the
first class, which would becalled zero.
Today maybe would be called thekindergarten class.
People talked a a little aboutthe alphabet, but most of it was
just to getting into the habitof sitting down and shutting up,
(05:10):
I think.
Cecilie Conrad (05:11):
Yeah, having a backpack, having a pencil case,
having a packed lunch, listeningto the bell you have to go back
into the classroom when thebell rings, stuff like that.
So it was behavior only thefirst year and then the second
year they started the actuallaying with alphabet and that
(05:32):
and stuff.
Jesper Conrad (05:33):
yeah, I wanted to talk a little about bullying,
because you mentioned that asamong the causes for why you
took your son out.
I've looked into the numbersfrom time to time and I get
saddened, disheartened andsurprised every time.
I see the amount of people whosay they have been bullied.
(05:54):
And then you have severebullying, not severe bullying,
and then I'm also when I look atthe numbers I can't remember
them right now, but whateveramount it is that has been
bullied then there's also thebully yeah, and that's not nice
either, and and I have been,unfortunately, on both sides,
(06:16):
yeah.
And then, if I look back at whatI took part in against other
people, which I'm definitely notproud of, the excuses made from
adults and myself, or the storyyou spin is that it was child's
play.
We didn't mean anything by it,but that doesn't mean that
(06:38):
someone didn't went home and cryor had a shitty day.
So just the sheer amount ofacceptance going on in the
school, where bullying is seenupon as kind of a necessary evil
or there is a limit of accept,acceptance like it's okay with
(07:00):
this amount of bullying.
But if, if it's this amount,then we're trying to tone it
down and I mean I wouldn'taccept that I think it's really
wild.
Cecilie Conrad (07:10):
I think we've had a number of ones where some
schools so we're fromScandinavia Not that we live in
Scandinavia, but we're fromScandinavia and Scandinavia
holds this place in the world'sdiscourse on schooling to have
the best schools.
I think Finland is running withthe star at the moment.
(07:31):
They are doing very good, notthat I agree with schooling as
such, but do we have to haveschooling?
They are doing better than manyplaces and we had some numbers
running here where they didsomething to minimize the
bullying and it was success andthere was a lot of writing about
it in the newspapers and youknow, the government did really
(07:53):
well and we reduced the bullying.
And now it's down to and Imight be wrong, we might have to
look this up, but I think it'sdown to 15 percent of
schoolchildren who are beingbullied, to 15 percent of school
children were being bullied.
Hey, would you accept 15?
Essie Richards (08:11):
percent of your friends bullying you on a daily
basis?
Cecilie Conrad (08:13):
yeah, exactly it's crazy, it's wait a minute.
Is that success?
Yeah, like that's a good isthis where we stop and and we
pat ourselves on the shoulderand we think we're the best
countries in the world to makeschooling.
Essie Richards (08:25):
Yet 15 of the kids will go home with that
feeling yeah, yeah, it wasreally interesting to talk to
Theo as he got a bit older and abit of distance from the, from
the situation, because I mean,the thing that happened, that
was the last straw for us.
There were lots of straws, butthe last straw was when he
(08:45):
looked at me and he said mum,you're just not doing your job,
you're not keeping me safe, whyare you putting me there?
And I was like that's it.
Basically, how can I answerthat?
And he, about a year later Ithink, he said to me it wasn't
just that this little boy washurting me so he would strangle
(09:07):
him and he'd do it in blindspots of the playground quite
cleverly, obviously quite adistressed little, little lad.
Um, but my son, theo, he said,um, it wasn't just that, he said
it was everything.
It was the way the teachershouted at the kids, the way
they had favorites, the way thatthere were things that were
(09:27):
very confusing to me, why peoplegot punished for things and
some people didn't and somepeople did.
He said I couldn't make anysense of it and it just wasn't
safe.
Basically, the adults weren'tsafe.
When I told people I wasgetting hurt by this little boy,
they didn't look after me.
Um, actually what they did iswhen we said you have to do
(09:49):
something, you have a duty ofcare for a child, they, they sat
Theo on a bench, a very smallpart of the playground, and he
said you've got to stay there soyou don't get hurt by this
other little boy.
He can run around the wholeplayground with all of your
friends, but you sit here so wecan keep an eye on you.
So Theo was like and so then Iwas punished for, like, this
(10:11):
thing that was happening to me,and he said you know, basically
what he was describing is a verymessed up system that, to a
little boy who'd had quite astraightforward life with, you
know, a fair degree of respect,um had gone into this place.
That just was crazy and therules made no sense, there was
(10:32):
no logic, it was unfair, it wasunjust.
He saw his friends getting hurtand cry and you know he just he
would come home and just belike, please, I cannot go back
to that, and it was sointeresting to hear that from a
child's mouth.
You know, like, we know that,but when you see the lack of
(10:55):
sense and how that actuallyimpacts somebody, it's just,
yeah, it's just, it's reallyoutrageous.
Basically, yeah, it's just,yeah, it's just, it's really
outrageous, basically, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (11:06):
What's also interesting, I think, is how we
hold that idea.
We, the adults, because we wereschooled.
We rarely talk to adults whowere homeschooled, so I suppose
you weren't in school.
I was schooled yeah, most of uswere schooled.
Yeah, and we hold this ideathat this is a necessary evil.
(11:27):
This is a fact of life.
This is how it is, and youstart when you're three, four,
five, six something and uh, andthen it's confusing in the
beginning, but you figure it outand and then you spend your 10,
15, whatever I spent 23 yearsin school and then you come out
and then you're educated and youneed that.
(11:49):
Yay, we have that idea.
And at what point do we wake upand realize, oh, we don't have
to do that.
It's a little bit like we havethis idea.
You sleep in a bed, right?
So first time one of my friendssaid yeah, I threw out my bed,
(12:11):
I just I just have to take mysheepskin off the sofa and I
sleep on that and I really enjoyit.
I mean crazy.
And then another one.
He said to me yeah, I always do50 push-ups before I go to bed
because I have a hard timefalling asleep, and then I just
sleep on the floor, otherwise myback hurts before I go to bed
because I have a hard timefalling asleep and then I just
sleep on the floor, otherwise myback hurts so I use the bed
just to lay out my clothes and Ithought wait.
(12:33):
So I mean, there are manythings that are like that.
We think that's how it is yeahand the school is a big one.
Now that I talk about the beds,maybe it's not such a big deal
that some people choose to sleepin a different way.
You can get your head aroundthat.
You might think it's a littlebit crazy, but you're like
whatever.
But if you take your kids outof school, yeah, Everything
(12:57):
stops, yeah.
Essie Richards (13:00):
Yeah, because we're conditioned by the school
system, certainly in the UK,that if you don't, all these
terrible things are going tohappen.
They're going to fall behind,they're not going to learn how
to be amongst other people.
You know, you're building a rodfor their back.
Someone said that to me at thenursery that Theo went to.
You're what You're building arod for your own back.
(13:21):
Have you heard that sayingbefore?
Jesper Conrad (13:22):
Like having a straight back.
Yeah, like going to school,okay oh that's how you learned
it.
Cecilie Conrad (13:28):
So you're blowing your spine basically
because you kind of wait.
Essie Richards (13:32):
I think, if you, I think it's the opposite.
It makes no sense to me, butthey were basically like, if you
pick up Theo when he's cryingfrom nursery and take him home,
you're going to teach him thatthat's, that's what will happen.
And I was like, yeah, that's,yeah, that's like really good,
right, I'm sad my mummy comes.
And they were like, oh no, he'sgoing to do that every day.
(13:53):
And I was like, but if, but, ifhe wants to do that every day
because he needs his mummy, thenthat's great that he knows how
safe he is, that that's going tohappen.
They're like, oh well, he'sjust going to cry.
And I was like, what you know?
So before he even started,right, we were getting this sort
of fear.
Cecilie Conrad (14:10):
Yeah, they're right, right.
They're right to the respectthat you can condition the child
to learn that you know you'recompletely helpless, there's
nothing you can do about yoursituation, so there's no point
in complaining, right, exactlyit's back to front right.
Essie Richards (14:28):
It's crazy and I think you know.
And then you, you step outsidethat of construct.
We didn't even believe inschool.
We, you know, before we startedschool we were like we don't
believe in it as an institution,we don't like it.
My and I, we worked with youngpeople who were homeless, so
they'd had terrible lives andhad terrible experiences.
(14:50):
We had both had awfulexperiences at school.
We didn't believe in school atall, but we just didn't really
understand the other options.
And so we found this schoolthat we thought, yeah, we can
make this work.
Maybe it's something about us,maybe we're just a bit
hippie-ish or something.
Maybe we can work.
You know, we'll give it a goand it was.
(15:11):
It's so hard when you actuallysee the things that you had
already seen, but your childgoes no, it's really like this.
And it caused us to really lookat the things inside ourselves.
Like you know fear ofconfrontation, fear of authority
, fear of man, like for our son.
We got over that shit stand upto school and be like no, that's
(15:34):
not cool.
But what was so interesting washow there was so much blaming
of the victim, so much blamingon our parenting.
This is probably your parenting.
There's not really anythinghappening.
Um, you're probably not doingit right.
You're probably being too soft.
Theo's probably a bit strange.
Um, you know, it is reallyhorrifying.
Jesper Conrad (15:58):
I think there's an interesting subject to dive
into, which is resilience andhow.
How I think a lot of people useit wrong.
I think everybody, every parentout there, wants a child that,
when they come out into theworld, is secure, is standing on
(16:18):
a secure foundation of knowingyourself and that version of
resilience, yes, but I mean allthis.
Just brush it off, you will getstronger.
What doesn't kill you, hurt you, what doesn't hurt you.
(16:39):
What doesn't kill you.
What doesn't kill you?
Yeah, that's how it is.
What doesn't hurt you will killyou, yeah.
What doesn't kill you?
Yeah, that's how it is whatdoesn't hurt.
Cecilie Conrad (16:44):
you will kill you.
Jesper Conrad (16:45):
Yeah, what doesn't kill you will make you
stronger, but it will also hurtyou.
But it's not fun getting hurt.
Of course you can get strongerthrough it.
Of course you can grow out ofbullying and take something away
from it, but that's not how youmake strong people.
I don't believe that committed,but that's not how you make
(17:06):
strong people.
I don't believe that.
I believe that's how you makepeople who are fencing
themselves in and protectingthem against the world, and that
is not strength.
In my world, the strength shouldbe to be able to walk into the
world like you are.
And then what?
How do you handle meetingpeople who are not nice?
It's difficult because they areout there, and I take it
(17:29):
personally sometimes and I canget sad if people are weird
around me.
But I think the best we can dofor our kids is let them grow up
in a caring, loving atmosphere.
Them grow up in in, in a caring, loving atmosphere, where we,
(17:49):
if they say it's not fun this,then just then.
Don't just retort to.
You will get stronger.
You'll just get up on the horseagain, get on and don't cry.
You're a boy and all this stuff.
Essie Richards (17:57):
that was more common when we were young yeah
yeah, yeah yeah, because whatyou're doing is you're teaching
kids or people to deny parts ofthemselves, like I'm really
hurting right now, no, you'renot, okay, I has pushed that
down and and deny that.
And you're teaching them themessages that when I'm
(18:20):
struggling and I share that withsomebody, they're not going to
listen, so so I just won't dothat.
So you're teaching them allthese strange rules about
connection and community andsurvival and you know like
things that you just totallyhave to unlearn throughout your
whole adult If you want to haveany sort of authentic connection
with people, or else you'rejust living out of all these
(18:43):
wounds.
So many of them happen, youknow, at school.
It's, yeah, it's so interesting.
Cecilie Conrad (18:51):
I just wanted to say that.
That circles us back to thequestion at what point is it we
stop?
Yeah, think that this is a goodthing, that this is an axiom,
that this is how it has to be,that this is how it has to be,
that this is just part of life.
We have to do that, just likewe have to sleep.
We need a bed, otherwise wecan't sleep.
(19:11):
We kind of need a school,otherwise our kids can't grow up
.
And at what point do we stop?
Because we all know it hurts.
Essie Richards (19:21):
We all know it sucks.
Cecilie Conrad (19:23):
We all know that the stories are about how the
you know the fictive stories andthe movies and the children's
books how kids hate school.
We all agree with that.
Everybody hates it.
Most people hate it to someextent and most people, if you
talk to them, were hurt by it.
Somehow they will tell youthese stories if you talk to
them as adults.
(19:43):
That hurt and they got hurt andthey had to work with that
trauma to get over it to have agood life after.
So my question is what?
What happened?
I mean, I heard your story.
What's stopped you, your childsaying I'm not safe.
Why are you putting me there?
(20:04):
It's your job to keep me safe.
You're my mom and I'm not safe.
Why are you putting me there?
It's your job to keep me safe.
You're my mom and I'm not safe.
So that was maybe you're likestacking on other things.
I get that and because you arewho you are, something stopped
you and we have a parallel story, basically, and and now we have
listeners to this podcast whomight actually have kids in
(20:26):
school and the question is whendo we stop and question the root
problem?
When do we stop and questionthe everything of this child's
life?
Could this be different.
Why are we doing this?
Is it right?
Is it true they need the schoolto grow up?
Why do we go so far?
(20:47):
Why do we put the kids therefor a year and a half?
Why do we put them the next day, the first time they tell us
that they got good?
Why do we take them back?
That's so.
I mean it hurts to ask thequestion, but it's strange
strange isn't it?
if they were at a playground,let's say, and there was some
(21:08):
rough surface somewhere, somereally unsafe swing, that kind
of always would unhinge and theywould fall into a pond and
almost drown, we would never goto that playground again and we
would complain, yeah, but in theschool we put them back, even
though we know they get hurt.
Why do we do that?
Essie Richards (21:31):
it's so, so complex.
There's so many reasons, right?
I mean, there's some people whojust have to because their
whole child care is based aroundschool and they just don't have
choices.
And that's really painful andreally hard.
And the system's created aroundthat, right to keep people in
school so that children can gothrough school and be workforce
(21:51):
ready, right, we understand thatthe system is created and
designed for that and it's it'sdesigned to make it very hard
for people to live without it.
You know, financially it'sreally really difficult to live
without school.
You're unsupported.
If you're a single person,that's really tough, you know.
(22:14):
If you're then on a one income,that's it's harder.
It's harder unless you're in afortunate position, you know,
where one of you's earning quitewell.
So financially it is harder tolive without school, definitely.
You know we've made lots ofsacrifices which we would make
over and over and over and overagain, but it the reality is it
(22:36):
is harder.
And then there's conditioningsome people are just so
entrenched in.
I think we were lucky becausewe were already, you know, had
deconstructed a lot of thisstuff.
I'm neurodivergent, so I wouldalways see through the system of
things anyway.
It didn't really make sense tome.
(22:56):
I don't have respect forauthority I never have had it
just because I'm supposed tohave it, whereas I see other
people that abide by those rulesof society where you're
supposed to respect people inauthority and they do.
That's just what they do, andit's very jarring to hear that
someone's not doing that topeople, and so their tolerance
(23:19):
for school is going to be muchgreater than mine was, which was
pretty small really.
Going to be much greater thanmine was, which was pretty it
was pretty small really.
I've also met quite a fewpeople who you know, even if
they've been wounded by schooland their families, they still
think that it did them good.
You know they haven't kind of.
Jesper Conrad (23:39):
I think that's an interesting thing.
If you do something over, over,over and over and, over and
over and over, then it's verydifficult to stop up and say, oh
, I shouldn't have done that,not to try to make sense of the
(24:00):
choices we have made.
You could turn it around andsay, as we are doing, we are
making sense of the choices wehave made and is arguing that
they were the right choices.
And if I have had a child inschool for that long time, I
would argue that it was theright thing to do and see how
well it went for her and stufflike that, because it is very
(24:24):
difficult to, to, to grow andand say out stuff loud that we
are sad that we have done um butisn't it also a good thing to
look at the bright side ofthings?
yeah, yeah yeah, focus on thepositive yeah, of course,
because you can't't change whatyou have done.
So we can only grow from thepast.
Cecilie Conrad (24:49):
But there's also the present.
Let's say we had our kids inschool and it was a wobbly thing
.
I would still say it's a goodthing to focus on the positive.
It's just at some point maybe'snot, yeah at some point I'm
reconditioning myself.
At some point I'm lying tomyself.
Jesper Conrad (25:09):
Yeah yeah, I like .
We have just been in the inengland for from three months
during the fall wonderful longtime to see and explore the
country, and one of the thingsyou get to see is this, and I
will make fun of england is likeparents being like nah, I want
my kid to grow up to beindividual and learn a lot.
(25:32):
Here's a school uniform so youlook exactly like everyone else.
I know, right, it baffled theshit out of me.
I mean how was the uniform theuniform for us?
Cecilie Conrad (25:42):
I don't understand it.
Jesper Conrad (25:44):
I don't understand that people don't
scream when they put their childin a uniform and they're like
now you can be individual,together with all the rest who
look exactly like you.
Oh, how was it if you have thisaversion towards school and
then putting your child in auniform and you've been raised
to be like this is a proudmoment how was it to do that?
Essie Richards (26:09):
well, it wasn't a proud moment for me at all.
Um, I've always been a littlebit of a had a different
perspective, I guess, and youknow I didn't like it.
It didn't feel good to me eventhen.
You know point, I felt the kindof stripping away of their
(26:47):
ability to be able to expressthemselves, whether they wanted
to or not.
Um, and you know, certainly formy son that was really
important, what he wore, how hefelt in those clothes, sensory
wise, was really important.
And, um, there were bits of himthat were kind of excited, like
oh, I've got this uniform, andlike you know, um, but he'd
(27:08):
always wear like funny littlesocks to kind of like have a his
own little expression going on.
And, yeah, I didn't like it.
It felt like a little, it feltlike putting them in a little
army uniform or something.
Jesper Conrad (27:21):
It felt very odd to me it makes me remind where
you did a wonderful choice.
But when we graduate highschool in Denmark we buy a
really ugly hat.
No one likes to have on formore than that week after and
everybody say congratulationsand it's kind of army kind of
style and I really hated it andI have a big ass head so I
(27:44):
couldn't find one that fit andit looked really terrible at me.
But at the same time you havebeen told during those three
years oh here, this is the hatyou wear when you are proud and
finished.
And my wife were more aware ofherself than I was at that time.
Cecilie Conrad (28:01):
I wanted the exam because I wanted to go to
university, and that was theonly reason I was in what you
call high school.
Yeah, yeah.
No, you don't call it highschool in England, that's
American.
Anyway, we needed thispreparation course.
Everyone takes some version ofit.
I did it because I wanted to goto university and it's the only
way to get in in our country.
I didn't get it to get a hat.
Jesper Conrad (28:23):
No, I was pretty clear on that.
Cecilie Conrad (28:27):
Yeah, so I got into university, so mission
accomplished.
Jesper Conrad (28:31):
Oh yes.
Cecilie Conrad (28:32):
Yeah.
Jesper Conrad (28:34):
How you said, when you put your son to school,
you slowly saw the lightdwindle and then he felt
insecure about the, the bullying.
How, how was it to take him outand and see him grow in the
last eight years?
Essie Richards (28:49):
uh, they might it was quite a ride yeah, I mean
, initially, that first sixmonths was beautiful.
It was like, oh my god, we gotour boy back.
It was so nice and it was solovely.
And there was, you know, justthe pressure.
You know, because it was veryhard to get him to go to school
as well he was.
You know, it was painful, he'dbe crying and I would just be in
(29:11):
bits like what the fuck am Idoing?
You know, like this isridiculous, this is insane, like
this does not feel good in anywhich way.
Um, yeah, so it was a bigrelief to not have to deal with
all of that and to see him justchilled out and happy and
playing, and um, and then webecause we were decided to not
(29:35):
go back to school and I, youknow, I wasn't going to work, we
had to leave London, so thatwas quite a big move.
Um, and while he was at school,he had had about three hours in
the evening just these violentkind of outbursts where I think
he was just processing all ofthis shit that had gone on in
(29:55):
the day.
It was terrible, we didn't knowwhat to do.
You know, we would just holdhim as lovingly as we could, but
I mean he would just be sayingthis stuff and he'd be drawing
these pictures with like peoplestabbing each other and, you
know, it was it, in a way, sogood that he could express it
and get it out.
But we were like, oh my god,what is happening, what is going
(30:17):
on?
And, um, that didn't.
That stopped in the first sixmonths but then, after we moved,
it started again and we werelike, what, what, what are we
doing?
And at that point I wastraining to be have you heard of
like hand in hand parenting?
It's like, um, it's kind oflike a really beautiful way to
(30:39):
support parents when they gettriggered by their parenting
journey.
So, giving them space to sortof process their big feelings,
so that they can be more presentfor their kids when their kids
are having big feelings, it'sreally beautiful.
Um, and uh, yeah, so I wastraining to be a consultant for
for them at the time and luckily, I got to speak to some of
(31:03):
their people who had, like youknow, been around for ages, and
I was like, what is going on?
What are we doing wrong?
What's this all about?
And they were really supportive.
Um, looking back, what I can seehad happened was that he was
just really burnt out.
He was just so burnt out fromschool trauma but you know he
(31:24):
hasn't had a diagnosis but Isuspect he was also burnt out
neurodivergently as well, justby the over stimulation of being
in school.
And so when we moved here, wehad a couple of years where he
refused to do anything.
He got really into gaming,which was beautiful.
He began this beautiful,incredible relationship with
(31:47):
gaming and but that was good forus because it threw us right
into the pit of fear that weneeded to work through right.
It was just like we didn't evenhave a telly before we moved to
Cornwall and now our son islike gaming 24 7, doesn't want
to leave the house, only wantsto eat beige food.
And we were like, oh my god,it's a difficult one it was hard
(32:11):
.
It was hard but so good it was.
I think I don't know.
Maybe I'm the sort of personthat needs it to be quite
extreme to push them to makethem look at all of their stuff,
and it certainly did that.
It was really de-schooling 101.
But he was burnt out and he wasalso really upset that we'd
(32:33):
moved here and you know wehadn't understood anything about
respectful parenting, we justknew how we didn't want to do it
.
We were trying to clobber out anew version, but we hadn't been
very great at the way that we'dmoved.
We'd sort of gone oh we're goingon a great big adventure, it's
going to be brilliant, insteadof saying how do you feel about
(32:53):
this?
What would that be like for you?
How can we make it easier?
This is the reason, you know,we didn't do any of that.
We were just like it's going tobe amazing, we'll buy you a
scooter and it's gonna be great.
Just denied his feelings.
So it just added school trauma,neurodivergent, burnout, total
lack of autonomy and disrespectfor his process and he was just
(33:15):
like I'm just gonna do thisthing that I can control, that,
I can win at that, I can feelsafe at that, I can control that
, I can win at that, I can feelsafe at that, I can choose to
stop and start.
And he was just like that wasit for like two years.
So that was hard, it was prettybrutal.
And then he started to kind of,you know, take steps out of
(33:39):
that and go to like littlethings and meet little friends
and stuff like that, and I meanit's it's kind of a long journey
.
Our journey is a long journeybecause that coincided with as
we de-schooled.
I think this happens to a lot ofpeople.
You start by de-schooling, sortof like this outer conditioning
, don't you around education andinstitutions, all that stuff,
(34:04):
learning, parenting and thenit's like, oh, now I'm gonna
look at all these things withinmyself, all these limits, all
this pain, all this stuff, why Ibehave like that?
You learn about autonomy,consent, respect, trust.
I'm like I want to trust mykids.
Oh, my god, I don't trustmyself.
(34:24):
And that threw me into a reallysort of deep healing crisis.
So I I had CPTSD, which I'd hada lot of therapy around, but I
think a little bit like we weretalking about with school.
I'd had intense therapy but itgot me to the point where I
could function and that was goodenough in the eyes of the NHS
(34:49):
and I thought that was as goodas it got.
So I was just like this is asgood as it gets.
I better just like do what Ican with this.
But then we entered thisbeautiful, authentic, deep
journey into de-schooling and Iwas just like this isn't as good
as it can get, like I need tounderstand and experience all
(35:09):
these things for myself.
So I started a journey ofsomatic experiencing therapy,
which was quite brutal withyoung children, and it wasn't
really a chosen thing.
It was kind of something I hadto do in order to continue, you
know, living really.
It got to that point.
So Theo now had to see his mamago through, you know, two years
(35:34):
intense pain, yeah yeah, Ithink it's really difficult.
Jesper Conrad (35:40):
Growing up as a person, and I mean it was
somehow easier to just have yourkids in kindergarten and you go
to work and then someone elsehave decided what is good, and I
think there is for me I thinkit's very difficult because you
(36:00):
start questioning everythingperiod, and I went through
everything is wrong with thesociety, but also like I love
the society, and then you startgoing into a oh, should I work
on myself?
And no, I shouldn't.
Where do I?
(36:21):
start no, but that's also like a, the base of just getting life
to run.
You don't need to, I don't wantin.
In danish we would call itpoking your navel.
Uh, I don't know.
Essie Richards (36:34):
You have the same expression in english I
think it's interesting what yousaid about like you know, you
couldn't afford to navel, gazeand and, and I think that is
true.
But I think some people can'tafford not to like.
That was my experience.
I couldn't afford not to likedo that.
I wanted to be here for my kids.
(36:54):
I wanted to like, not pretendto have relationships.
That was super.
You know, superficially I couldmanage to hear, but underneath
I'm like suffering.
I was like I want the realthing, like you know, geez, like
I'm not going to pretend, andso I couldn't afford not to do
that work.
I didn't particularly want to,but and I think I've seen I've
(37:14):
seen that with a lot of peoplethat I think maybe unschooling
is quite attractive.
It sort of magnetizes peoplewho want authenticity, who are
sick of, like, thesuperficiality of stuff and the
lack of community and the lackof understanding what it really
feels like to be in their bodiesand in connection with people.
(37:38):
I think it really attractspeople like that who are willing
to do that it.
I think it's quite brave work.
You know, unschooling I don'tthink it's for the um
faint-hearted.
You know you've got to reallybe prepared to take stuff apart
and really look at it and thinkdo I want that?
Or if not, how am I going tomove through all that stuff to
(38:01):
get to the other side?
It's?
I don't know.
Has that been your experience?
Cecilie Conrad (38:07):
it clearly unravels a lot of stuff.
I feel like we were prettyradical before, but of course
this was taking it to what mostpeople would say, the extreme
level.
Um, I'm just wondering if ithas to be like that.
I don't really know.
(38:27):
I can, I can talk from myperspective and the people I met
and there are just some peoplewho don't really take no for an
answer, who don't really.
If someone says to you that ishow it is they're like, but does
it have to be like that, or areyou sure, or is it always like
that?
Do I have to live with that umwho are more ambitious on a
(38:51):
personal level, um who just willnot like accept the cap and say
why, why did you put a capthere?
What if I want more?
or less, who also take you know,they're not like just
functioning in there who willalways try to do a little bit
(39:13):
better or explore and try to dosomething new.
There are some people who liketo do what they always did and
cook the potatoes exactly likegrandmother did, and you know.
But there some people who liketo do what they always did and
cook the potatoes exactly likegrandmother did.
But there are people who enjoythat.
I think I'm just not like thatand I don't have any friends who
are like that, and my husbandis very much not like that.
So, yes, it attracts peoplelike you described, but it also
(39:40):
attracts, I think, people whoare, or maybe at least it feeds
that part of your personalitythat really wants to question
things and that really wants tobe ambitious and that can always
come up with the question couldwe do this a little bit better?
Could we do this a little bitin a more fun way, in a more
(40:01):
beautiful way?
In a more fun way, in a morebeautiful way, in a more
efficient way?
Um, and of course you're right.
First we do the deconstructionof the world around us and a lot
of new ones.
Schoolers have a lot of socialcritique and critique about the
society and they talk about thehistory of schooling and we go
(40:22):
back to Germany and theVolksschule, all these things,
and I've done that, I still doit sometimes and it's fine.
And then you take it to theother level, where it's oh, but
what about my life, my family,my culture, my local community?
What happened in in me and how?
How do I arrive at theauthentic point of view.
(40:44):
Can I question my own way Ifunction, and I think your rant
started at a point of and wewe've talked about that many
times how, yeah, but we alsohave to stop at some point.
We, we also have to just cookthe potatoes, take out the
Hoover, call grandma, take outthe trash, make the money, pay
(41:09):
the insurance, move on, watchthe movie.
Sometimes it's not a process,sometimes it's just life, and
sometimes we just need to getthings done and we need to get
over ourselves.
And it's not about me, it'sactually about changing that
diaper, washing those clothes,brushing the teeth, doing the
(41:32):
things.
My point is there is apractical level to being a
parent and to being anunschooling parent as well, and
sometimes just do the work.
I think that's where you'relike.
I don't have to go out and makesome money.
I have to.
You know I have my end ofthings I have to do and you know
, suck it up and do it.
Jesper Conrad (41:53):
What I actually think could be fun was to turn
back time, clone me and see oneguy not going on as an
unschooling parent and then theother going as an unschooling
parent and then seeing howdifferent would I have been
because sliding doors yeah,because in reality, maybe all
(42:18):
these experience I'm goingthrough and maybe I praise
unschooling and the choosing ofnot school more than it needs,
maybe it's just part of becominga 50 and being a parent and you
learn by being a parent, so soI I maybe would I have been
different maybe you've got.
Essie Richards (42:39):
Maybe you've got a bit beyond.
I certainly feel like nowunschooling isn't something we
do.
I don't even really think aboutit or talk about it.
Really, it's sort of like justa way of being, like actually,
theo has now chosen to go toschool, but we're still
unschooling, like that hasn'tchanged anything, whatever they
do.
It's just.
It's really more about the waywe relate to people and I think
(43:02):
that's the luxury of being alittle bit further along, like
being 50, having maybe olderkids.
You've been through, you'vedone like that really hardcore
work right, and you don't haveto think about it so much.
But I think there's a timewhere you have to think about it
a lot, to wrap your little headaround what, what, what is this
we're doing?
You know it's.
Cecilie Conrad (43:23):
It takes a lot but I think in our life, the
life we share, it's also aquestion of it changes.
So, of course, unschooling tookcenter stage when that was the
new thing, the new shiny objectand and we had to like wrap our
heads around what are we doing?
And it took some time, and Istill sometimes have to stop and
(43:46):
think about what are we doingin these regions.
They will always be relevant.
Obviously, we don't get up inthe morning and not go to school
.
That's not what we're doing.
It hasn't been for more than 10years.
School that's not what we'redoing.
It hasn't been for more than 10years.
It's.
It's not a thing any longer wetalk about on the podcast, talk
(44:08):
about when we meet new people,but we, we don't think about it
that much.
Obviously, I think that that'sa few years down the line you
stop thinking about it.
But then it's other things.
Then we move, move on.
Then we start questioning otherthings.
We start questioning oh, do wehave to live in a house?
Yeah, do we have to live in thesame place?
(44:29):
Is it a university degree,something you have to take on a
university?
Do we have to eat like this?
Do we have to?
You know, do I have to feelthis way, it changes.
But the base idea of thequestioning and the I want to
say ambition I don't know ifit's the right word actually,
(44:51):
but this, you know, pushing thisI'm not settling.
You know, I will always try todo it a little bit better.
It can annoy my children andpotentially my husband.
Could we do a little more?
Could we do it do a little more?
Could we do it a little faster?
Could we do it a little better?
Jesper Conrad (45:08):
and it's a wonderful balance between
wanting to push life and get themost out of it without being
unsatisfied with what youachieve.
That that's a wonderful balance, then, that I think we have
learned to master, and I stillquestion myself if I push for
this and I want this thing overhere, do I remember to be
(45:31):
grateful for where I am?
Yeah, but I know if I'm notpushing, I would maybe go into
like a stalemate of just routine.
And there's a graffiti artistin Denmarkmark and he have made
like with big ass white letterson a wall.
In the translation it's anxietymarinated everyday routines,
(45:55):
big letters on a whole wall, andI I love it because that is
what terrifies me to makeeveryday routines based on a
deep, deep fear in my life of Ineed to do it like this,
otherwise stuff will break.
I won't be satisfied.
I love that graffiti artist.
I want to hunt him down andinterview him at some point.
Essie Richards (46:17):
I think like that thing, though.
I think once you'vedeconstructed something, whether
it's education or faith or raceor whatever, you have this sort
of blueprint, don't you?
And then you seem to justcertainly it's been my
experience like then I seem toapproach everything with that
posture of like curiosity andwanting to look at it from every
(46:37):
angle and just be like, oh,maybe there's a different way if
that doesn't feel great ordoesn't work for people or and I
love, I love that, I love itjust doesn't have to be that way
if it's not working.
Like I was gonna say before,when we're talking about school.
So I have a, an agile learningcenter which is, um, it's really
(47:01):
interesting because we set itup for unschoolers, right to
build community for unschoolers.
We're in rural Cornwall,there's not a whole lot of
unschoolers, so I was likeperfect, we'll do this and
that'll be a way of meetingpeople and actually the majority
of people there are kids thatare unable to thrive in school.
So they've, their parents havegot a breaking point.
(47:23):
Their children just can't goanymore, and I'd say pretty much
everyone at Luna isneurodivergent if they've got a
diagnosis or they're in theprocess of it.
So there's that element thatthe school environment really
doesn't work for mostneurodivergent children.
So they're like the canary inthe coal mine.
You know they're the first tolike go no, and so they end up
(47:47):
at Luna.
And that's really interestingto me because over the last two
years I've seen parents battlingfor support, financial support
from the local authority to lookafter their kids, to get what
they need and stuff, and oftenthey have to go to tribunal to
(48:08):
fight for it and things likethis.
The local authority now areseeing these kids leaving school
in droves, like they just can'tdeny it.
It's not the odd one.
I think it's got worse sinceCOVID because people realise, oh
, actually, maybe life withoutschool isn't so bad right.
Actually, maybe life withoutschool isn't so bad right.
(48:30):
Um, but instead of schoolsaying well, kind of what they
have done, the local authoritiessaid, huh, luna seems to be
providing support to these kids.
They went, made us go throughthis quite laborious process and
they pay a higher rate for kidsto come.
So they've sort of said it's analternative provision, it's
certified an alternativeprovision.
But instead of saying, thegovernment now saying oh wow,
(48:55):
school really isn't working fora lot of children, a lot of
children seem to be leaving.
What do we need to do to makeus better?
Maybe we could get the kids andthe parents together, teachers
together, and make some changesso that this environment help
the children to thrive.
No, they don't do that becausethey aren't.
(49:16):
They don't have a root of loveand care, they have a root of
fear and control.
So the only thing that theyknow how to do is to control
people and fear and makeeverything fear induced.
So what they're doing now isthey're saying oh my god, all
these kids are leaving.
What are we going to do?
How are we going to get themback in?
Oh, we're going to bring out anew bill and make places like
(49:40):
luna impossible and illegal, sothey can't exist, and then those
kids will have to go back toschool.
We're so clever, you know yeah,has it been.
Jesper Conrad (49:50):
Has the bill been approved?
I know our friend randall isfighting a good fight it's a lot
of people are fighting it atthe moment.
Essie Richards (49:59):
And places like luna.
There's a lot of places likeluna, the Agile Learning Center
writing in, you know evidence.
Jesper Conrad (50:06):
Has it been approved or not yet?
Essie Richards (50:07):
No, not yet.
Jesper Conrad (50:10):
No, no, but it is the challenge that a lot of
places face, and I mean, there'scountries where it's even
illegal.
It's illegal right but what.
I like is to take inspirationfrom our talk we had recently
with Peter Gray, who say theyare up to around 8% now that is
being homeschooled, and as thatis growing, then everyone knows
(50:32):
someone who is homeschooled.
And then there is this pointwhere the tipping point, where
it is not strange.
It is not weird, everyone hasseen someone do it.
So the choice will be easierand I'm not fearful for the
future because I live in thisfocus of sharing the information
and helping to get closer tothe tipping point.
(50:55):
When we started in Denmark, wewere around 10 families maybe,
and now there's hundreds InDenmark.
Essie Richards (51:02):
It's still below 1%, I presume, but we are
getting there, we're pushing,and then the world will follow,
I believe yeah, I mean you haveto keep imagining, right, you
have to keep reimagining and,like the thing you were talking
about, like you know, begrateful and not just sort of
like, be complacent, so keepmoving forward but be grateful
(51:23):
for where it is.
And I think, yeah, we need toget really informed by what um
is going on, but keepreimagining, like what it can be
, and see the ridiculousness ofand the futility of that way of
being.
It's just not, you know, it'snot, it's not, it's not going to
last, it can't.
Cecilie Conrad (51:42):
Like, you know it can't, it's just getting more
and more crazy maybe the goodpart about that bill pushing
everyone back into the schoolsystem will be that it will be
so much clearer that it doesn'twork.
Yeah, if you have all theselittle loopholes, these little
(52:04):
ways of solving the problem, thecanary um, everyone else have
to survive being in the minesyeah, whereas if the canaries
just keep dying in there and Isuffer for all the kids who have
to go to school every day, Idon't think it's a good thing.
But if we are looking at thebright side, then maybe that
(52:26):
will be what makes it fall apart, what makes people take their
kids out of school, and I, Itotally, and I mean, if it's
enough kids, then our society atsome point will have to come up
with something, I suppose, um,to provide for those who are not
in school.
At some point, the librarieswill change and be more learning
(52:51):
center-ish maybe.
We have structures for this, wehave museums, we have libraries,
we have sports facilities witha lot of space and options for
everyone, including children whodo not spend their days in
schools, and lots of these areowned by local governments.
So this could change and becomesomething that is.
(53:16):
I mean, our kids have been iceskating while we've been in
Denmark in a professional iceskating ring where you know it's
play the ice hockey and stufflike that.
They do the dances, but from 12to 3 30 every day it's open for
the public.
But who's that?
Yeah, who is it who is actuallyagreed to ice skate because
(53:40):
it's only weekdays?
Yeah, as it is open for thepublic.
There is a facility forhomeschoolers now, which is, in
our little country, amazing, andwhat I'm trying to say is maybe
we don't need all theindividual kids to have their or
(54:02):
not have their, or have tofight for their diagnosis, and
every private individual familysay oh, I lost my income, you
have to help me.
Maybe we have to set up a wholesociety that's ready for
families for whatever reason.
We don't have to be victims tochoose to homeschool.
We don't have to have anythingwrong quote, unquote with us to
(54:23):
choose to homeschool.
We don't have to have anythingwrong quote unquote with us to
choose to homeschool.
We just choose this and oursociety is ready for it because
we have and we do have, we livein fairly rich countries we do
have a library we can go to.
I mean, it's not like it's notthere and in our country it's
still free.
So there are some things, andmaybe pushing the kids back into
(54:46):
the schools, pushing thefamilies to take the kids out of
the schools, but holding on tothe responsibility at home.
Now it's my problem.
Problem quote unquote will, ifwe get to a tipping point,
enough families doing this willchange the society instead,
(55:07):
which I think is better.
I mean, I'm not against youragile learning center, obviously
, but I'm just saying yeah it'sway better, it's more accessible
, it's more available.
Essie Richards (55:19):
It's just normal .
It's already there, normal,right, it's just normal.
That's the thing.
Because people always say, oh,oh, my gosh, it's so amazing,
this environment, what.
It's just normal.
That's the thing.
It's because people always say,oh, oh, my gosh, it's so
amazing this environment, whatit's doing for the children, and
we're like it's not really likewe're doing anything right,
we're just being normal.
What our new normal is, andthat's just like the basic.
(55:39):
For me it doesn't feel thatamazing actually, because we
don't have a whole lot ofcapacity and resources to really
make it amazing.
But the but the basics is feelsamazing because, comparatively,
when you have an environmentfull of concern and respect and
trust and self-direction,comparatively that feels amazing
(56:00):
.
But I can see that will becomethe new normal because, like you
say, more and more people arehearing about it and
understanding it and I meet moreand more families.
I find this so exciting thatdidn't have to go to a crisis
point to then go oh, there'sunschooling.
They're like hang on a minute,we're already respectfully
(56:22):
parenting.
School just does not align withour values.
What should we do?
Oh, we're going to unschool andthey, they don't even get to
that point.
So already these are, you know,like people that I meet in the
unschooling community that Ihost.
They're like in their 30s andthey're only so.
They're only like 20 yearsyounger than me, but they're way
(56:42):
ahead of the game.
You know, like, and I'm like,yes, what's the next like.
And all our kids, you know, allour kids.
They're not going to have towade through this shit, it's,
it's already creating a newnormal, isn't?
Cecilie Conrad (56:55):
it.
Jesper Conrad (56:55):
It's unlikely we will have grandchildren in and I
think that it's a wonderfulplace to start.
I think that what you're doing,what we're doing, what a lot of
people before us have done, issharing about the opportunity of
(57:16):
choosing something else, ofgoing down the path of what
feels right for us, and I thinkwe should all just share it with
the world so more could beinspired.
There's a small quote from aguy called Ross Jackson I've
worked together with, who havebeen in the ecovillage movement
for 40 plus years and he's like83 now.
(57:39):
He said when he looks back atall the ecovillages out there,
the ones that survived was theones that didn't fought against
but fought for something, andthat is what I'm trying to do.
In the start I was againsteverything because I was like
needed a mental cross to stepout of the everyday norm, but
(58:00):
now I stand for something andhopefully more can choose this
way.
Essie Richards (58:04):
So thanks a lot for your time.
Jesper Conrad (58:06):
It was a pleasure talking with you.
Essie Richards (58:07):
Thanks so much for having me.
It's been lovely to meet youguys.
You're doing great things.
Thank you Likewise.
Cecilie Conrad (58:13):
It's been fun.
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