111: Anne Kirketerp | Craft Psychology: The Link Between Crafting & Wellbeing - Self Directed

Episode Transcript
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Jesper Conrad (00:00):
So this is the first time in a row we are
actually interviewing someonefrom our country, denmark, and
today we're together with you,anna Kierkegaard.
It's a pleasure to meet you andI look forward to our chat
today.
Welcome.

Anne Kirketerp (00:15):
Thank you so much.
I'm happy to be here, or behome, in my living room,
actually so I wish where you are.
It seems like you're somewheremuch warmer than here.

Yeah, southern France it's like Denmark in
April, where when the sun isshining it's oh so wonderful,
but when there's clouded it canstill be chilly, but it's, of
course, less gray and more sun,which is the big reason we are
traveling.
So I wanted to get into who youare and why we have invited you

(00:46):
and wanted to talk to you.
You have written a book calledCraft Psychology, and for the
people watching the podcast onvideo and for the listeners then
you must imagine a reallybeautiful little spoon I have
made and a butter knife.
So I started.
After many, many years, Ifinally last summer got around

(01:10):
to fall in love with workingwith my hands a lot and doing
some crafts, but you havewritten a book about it.
So why have you written a bookabout it?

Well, it's not like I have written a book about
it, it's like I have created abranch of psychology called
craft psychology.
So it made itself into a book.
But the weird thing was that Irealized nine years ago I quit
my job as a professor at theuniversity and then I thought I
was going into I was a researchdirector and it was really

(01:44):
boring, and I'm originallyeducated as a craft person and a
psychologist and a PhD.
So I just longed to get allwhat I always experienced as
very important for my own healthand for the way where my life
really feels meaningful is whenI'm creating things.

(02:07):
And it was kind of alwaysmocked or people were like
laughing oh you're just sittingthere carving, or just sitting
there doing this, aren't yougoing to do something?
You know?
more meaningful meaningful,something more I don't know.
Yeah, don't waste your time.
And then I I thought nine yearsago when I quit, I wanted to be

(02:27):
that place in the world wherethey were studying health
promoting effects of craft.
And then I started to, you know, google it and finding out that
craft psychology as I thoughtmy research area would.
As I mean, I was willing tosell everything and, you know,
go into an auto camper and justbe there in the world where they

(02:52):
were studying what I thoughtwas already there craft
psychology.
And then I found out it's neverbeen formulated, it wasn't
there, it wasn't a thing, thatwas a um, they were selling
clothes or something, bed linenor something in California
called craft psychology.
I don't know why it's calledthat.
And then I just kind of wasalmost I was angry and I was a

(03:14):
bit is that really true?
It's never been formulated.
I just kind of thought, okay, Ihave to formulate, or start to
formulate and study and make thescience behind what is the
health promoting effect of usingyour hands.
So that is kind of the researcharea that I developed and I

(03:38):
asked 1,000 people why do youcraft?
It could have been people likeyou.
Oh, when I carve.
When I sit and do this,suddenly I don't have any
worries in my head, or suddenlyI feel that the question of what
is the meaning of life, it justis not there, because this is
when we are present, in thepresent moment, completely

(04:03):
focused on one activity.
That is where and a lot ofother things too that's where
the purpose and the meaning oflife just presents itself, and
all of that it's been.
I also made what you could calla full literature review.
I read everything that was everwritten about the craft, all

(04:23):
kinds of different craft andhealth promoting effects, and
there was only 470 articles,which is ridiculously little.
If you compare it to exerciseand sports, there are 50,000.
So it's like that is also why,if you go to a doctor and you
have any kind of diseases, ormentally or physically, you will

(04:44):
be ordered exercise, becauseit's evident that this is
working.
So, yes, I collected all of itand then I kind of looked from
up above and I saw theoverarching effects and that is
what I have written a book aboutcalled Craft Psychology.
So, yes, it's an area.

(05:04):
And then it turned into a book.

Cecilie Conrad (05:08):
So yes a book.
Well, well done, yeah and thankyou, we needed that yeah we all
needed that.
Yeah, it's weird, it's weird itis actually really weird,
because I I suppose everyone whodo craft knows this yes, yes,
everyone.

That's what I hear all the time.

Yeah, it's like in Danish.
I don't know if I can translateit, but we have this little
poet, piet Hein.
Yeah, I'm a psychologist aswell, so I suppose we both know
this one.
I'll say it in Danish and thenI'll try to translate it.
But he says in one of hislittle poems in psychologe they

(05:47):
sit and six wills to d and d v lwill.
So in danish it rhymes.
It says psychologist is someonewith the with, who with a lot
of hard work will study thethings we all already know yeah,
exactly and we can get skewedof what we know.
Oh yeah, but I just like hislittle comment on it.

(06:09):
I mean, we know it deep down,but did we really know before we
studied it, before we wrotebooks about it?
I don't know.

And I think what I often hear when I give
lectures or whatever I do, it'sthat people say thank you for
defining this.
Yes, I knew this already, butnow suddenly I can somehow, you
know, turn up the effects in amore deliberate way.
And that's also what I amtrying to do.

(06:38):
It's to make people aware of.
Yes, I know what happens withme when I carve or when I knit,
or when I bake or when Iwhatever kind of craft
activities I do.
But very many people actuallynot so conscious about that they
might also be they should makesomething that's more difficult
sometimes and they should makesomething that's not so

(07:00):
difficult.
And very many people just havethis notion of oh, it's so
healthy to craft.
Yes, no, actually sometimespeople tend to do something
that's yeah, it has too low, ahigh structure, as we can talk
about later and it's not just.
There's so many things abouthaving craft as something that

(07:22):
promotes health and it.
You need to know things, youneed to know the effects in
order to make the effects workfor you more deliberate.
So it's actually good.
Yeah, that's a little bit more.

Yeah, the effects are defined and an area I would
love to unpack together withyou is about the, the love of
creation that we people have.
And if I take my own story,then I have been creating
projects since I was young.
I made a amateur feature film,I made animated movies and

(07:59):
written books and stuff likethat.
So I've been creating projectssince I was young and there was
always this drive to create, butat the same time, there was
this drive to both getacknowledgement for it and could
it be sold and be turned into acareer somehow.
There was this oh, it needs tobe something to be worth

(08:25):
something, and it almost feelslike I have this mindset of it
needs to be something, otherwiseI'm not worth it and it's not
good enough and I need to makemoney on it.
Where and it's where, withwhittling and making fun stuff
in, I'd make a lot of spoonsWith making the spoons.
I don't lot of spoons, uh, withmaking the spoons, I don't care

(08:47):
, I just love making the spoons.
And then we get too many.
We had 20 at some point and I Istarted to give them away to
people as like a welcome present.
Hey, hey, it's good to see you.
Here's a spoon, um, but then wehad this actually I will circle
around.

(09:07):
We had a talk with a fellow Dane, dennis Namark, who have
written about pseudo work andthe price of unfreedom and about
how work has become sooverwhelming a thing we think we
need to do.
We need to believe that thehours needs to be filled out and
stuff is not valuable ifthere's not an economic goal

(09:31):
with it.
And I've been fighting thisinside myself and with the doing
craft.
I I think I've finally, aftermany, many years, are getting it
and my wife, who I've beenknitting for all the time I've
known her.
I'm sometimes like, oh, that'san expensive hobby and just been
like a plain stupid, uh, notunderstanding all the values in

(09:52):
it.
Yeah, so my question to youlong way around there is a
question is where is the mixbetween the love of creating and
this weird it needs to beproductive mindset?
That's also there.
Yeah, it's not really a clearquestion, but it's a career.

I can wrap many answers around that.
Thank, you.
I think there's this need toachieve something meaningful.
That's one thing that we havealways been, as a species,
trying.
Our nervous system is createdin order to make us dry, warm

(10:38):
and fed.
So whenever we are doingsomething in the world, making
an impact on something that willsomehow make an impact on this
dry, warm fat meaning that youare building something to keep
you dry and making somethingthat will keep you warm, and

(10:58):
making some food or something,or collecting things that will
make you fat or collectingthings that will make you fit.
So this dry, warm fit is aninstinct, in the same way as our
need to have kids or need todeliver our genes further in the
universe, and also thisinstinct of keeping dry, warm

(11:21):
fit.
So in that sense, you could saywork, but I mean work is not, I
mean survival is not work it'sjust whenever I am cooking, or
I'm building a cave, or I am outin the woods and making a
bonfire and cooking.
That's where very many peoplefeel that this instinct of

(11:44):
feeding, the need for dry, warmfed, that's where the purpose of
life somehow comes to life.
So that's one thing thateverything in our sensoric and
motoric nervous system is justcalibrated to somehow keep us
dry, warm fed.
So that's one thing why craftis so.
It's just an instinct to keepdry, warm fed.

(12:04):
So that's one thing why craftis so.
It's just an instinct to keepdry, warm fed, and that's one
thing.
And the other thing is thatuntil recently I would say 150
years everything that we did waskind of dry, warm fed.
Of course we needed to havesleep and other things, but we
learned craft activities inorder to have clothes on our

(12:25):
body and build houses and wewere preparing food a lot of the
time.
I mean, someone at homecouldn't just buy ready-made
whatever.
So dry, warm fat has been,until recently, kind of why we
made craft.
And then suddenly we didn'thave to.
There were very many people whowere pre-prepared.

(12:46):
And then suddenly we have,maybe inactivity in our lives
and I know what this guy thatyou are talking about having
this pseudo work and, of course,meaningless work where you feel
I'm doing something that'scompletely meaningless, my life
is just wasted.
I've never, ever, talked to aperson who are making their

(13:11):
passion, feeling that it'smeaningless.
And now I'm going to saysomething, answer your question
differently, because what I havebeen studying is what people
would call a hobby-based passion, and I can also see that my
research applies to people who'snot into craft making as a

(13:35):
passion.
But if we start with people whoactually have a deep passion for
knitting or carving or whatevera passion is defined by that,
the activity in itself is thereward.
So that sense it's, wheneveryou're doing it you're not
longing to get it over and donewith.
You are not, you know, lookingforward that oh, I'm so happy

(13:59):
that my sweater is finally overwith so I can watch some
television.
Or, you know, when you'recarving your spoons, it's the
activity in itself that is thereward and that is what make
having a passion for craft alsothe shortcut to psychological

(14:20):
well-being, because all yourneeds that is, in psychological
well-being is actually met whenyou are in something where the
activity itself is the reward.
And that is why people havehobbies.
And so in one sense I would saythat whenever you're doing
something that you love doingand you have a passion, that is

(14:41):
never the sense of pseudo, thatis never the sense of I'm doing
a task because I long to get itover and done with.
So if we have a job that feelslike a pseudo job and we are
just longing to get home and dosomething that feels meaningful,

(15:02):
which would be our hobbies,then that would be different,
and I can also see people whoare there.
Is this, yeah, for maybe 150years.
What we have been maybestarting to do craft for is

(15:26):
mainly also the psychologicaleffects, or the sense of
community, or the sense of I amgiving on the tradition of wood
carving onto the next generation.
So I have this model in my book,where I have found nine

(15:46):
different kinds of purposes ofmaking craft, and the
functionality of making craft isonly one and there's eight
other.
One could be the aestheticpurpose like you just love to
create something that willdiminish your anxiety, and one
could be the psychologicalpurpose of to make craft because

(16:09):
you feel flow and you feel allthe other things.
And one could be the purpose ofcreating something, or to make
craft as a mean to feelconnected to others, because
it's easier for people to sitand be together when you're
making something common.
Third, and lots of otherdifferent meanings of making
crafts.
So I would say, if we onlyfocus on craft as something that

(16:35):
has to have a functionalfunction or functionality, it's
only a very small part of what Isee and I would define as why
people make craft today.
And then there's also anotherthing that I have studied quite
a lot.
It's professional craft makerswho have this weird thing that I

(16:59):
would call they pollute theirpassion.
Because sometimes if you startmaking craft as something that
you love, and maybe you go intocraft school for five years and
then suddenly you find yourselfhaving a shop where you have to
make 50 cups, ceramic cups youknow you have to make them every

(17:21):
day and then suddenly it goesfrom intrinsic motivation that
you love doing it and you had alot of very nice psychological
effects with it and thensuddenly it becomes something
that you are longing to get overand done with.
It's no longer you don'texperience flow, it's too boring
, and you don't have thisrepetitive movement calming

(17:42):
effect in your body because youmight actually sit and worry and
you don't really feel this isvery purposeful, and so on.
So this if you pollute yourpassion, then not even creating
something and not even doing it,as you might say that you
thought you had to do somethingwhere you could sell it or all

(18:04):
your spoons could become in ashop yeah, but if you had to sit
there every day carving 10spoons every day.
It would have been a veryextrinsic motivated activity.
You would have, in the end,thought I much rather drive
parcels out to people, let mejust all work in Tesco or

(18:26):
whatever you know, because whatstarted as something you love
doing suddenly became the thingthat you love the least, and
that is where you pollute yourpassion.
It's no longer your go-to tohave a sacred place.
So many answers to Greatanswers.

(18:47):
Very open questions.
Yeah, that's how I do it.
I can take the questionanywhere, yeah, so.

I have some very specific questions, but I think
the things I'm thinking rightnow are more interesting.
I was thinking about would thatbe a note to self in general to
explore?
Am I doing this because I feelI have to or am I doing this

(19:20):
because I like doing it?
Yeah, about things that are not100% necessary.
I mean, I do a lot of cooking,to take that example, and I
don't feel like that's a craft,but obviously it is.
I think about it and I cook andI make little jars of things and

(19:42):
I try new stuff and I cook alot and I'm very passionate
about it and we make everythingfrom scratch and we do it in new
locations all the time, so Ihave to come up with new,
because I can't get the sameresources to work with whenever
we move and you know all thesethings, and we also have a lot
of allergies.
I have to work around, and so Ido that and sometimes I just

(20:03):
love it.
It's amazing and everything isshining and I have a little jazz
music going on and andsometimes I'm like fuck, I spent
four hours in the kitchen todayand it's all greasy and I just
wanted to read my book.
And why am I doing this?
Yeah, yeah, so it becomes achore, because I also have a

(20:23):
family to feed and I'm justthinking that and many other
things we fool ourselves tothink that we have to do, if we
could get back to the passionabout, because most likely
didn't we start the idea ofdoing these things.

Yeah, because we loved it.
Yeah, we start the idea ofdoing these things.
Yeah, because we loved it.
Yeah, are you a professionalchef or are you just cooking for
your family?
Or is courses, or why do youcook for four hours?
Is that, is it something youthink you have to?
Or do you put up, you know?
Do you personally?

(21:01):
Yeah, yeah, I'm just why, I'mjust because I can't really go
into the question if I don'treally so what I'm trying to say
is more like can we take whatis?

I thought it was very interesting when you
talked about how you can polluteyour passion.
Yeah, so if you're passionateabout something, you can pollute
that.
That makes sense.
I like knitting socks, but if Iopen a sock shop, I would have
to knit only socks all the timeas fast as I could and it would
become boring.
Obviously that makes sense, andlearn from that and put it into

(21:41):
other areas of life that aremaybe not considered hobbies.

Yeah, yeah, I mean everything that I found out
about the health promotingeffect also apply to the
professional craft person theone, the carpenter, the chef,
whatever.
Professional craft person, theone, the carpenter, the chef,
whatever.
But the thing is, the reasonwhy I asked you was that very
often people can actually getinto flow and they can have all

(22:10):
these amazing effects, even ifit's paid for, even if they are
professional chef or they areprofessional carpenter, whatever
.
It's not like it's the like inoppositions to each other.
It's not like it's inoppositions to each other.
It's just very often, if youhave to do something on a
deadline, or you have to do itwith other people's needs at
first, or you have to dosomething that's too little

(22:33):
demanding and you're actuallywell-rested and you find
yourself having a sense oftension, so your mind will start
to wander, wander.
You're not in flow because it'snot completely absorbing to you
.
So, so there's lots of thingsthat might be not so health
promoting if it's a task thatyou're paid for and you can't

(22:54):
really choose yourself and youcan't just make an extremely
fantastic dish where you haveexperimented, because if you are
like a chef, you just have tomake this, uh, whatever,
something like for the 15 000times, so it becomes boring.
It's when it falls out of flowor it falls out of something

(23:18):
where you can create and you arein that zone where it's
interesting for you, where itfalls out of some of the health
promoting effects, but there'sno it's.
I can just see that very manycraft professional craft people
they are doing something wherethey are creating, not to

(23:49):
someone else, but just as theexperiment itself and just
because they love it and justbecause they think, oh, I just
want to see what happens if I dothis or I do this or I create
this, or what happens if I putbanana into this dish and you
know, and you start to havingthe real creation going for you

(24:11):
again.
That is, for most people, whatsets them in that zone where
everything is the mostmeaningful in life.
And yeah, it's also anotherthing that very many people have
this tendency of thinking Ihave started something and now I

(24:33):
have to finish it, becausecrafts somehow have this I don't
know from the beginning ofmankind that if you started a
sweater or you started to carvesomething, of course you have to
finish it, and if you hate itor it's not interesting or you
know, it's so difficult forpeople to stop in the middle of

(24:56):
a project because no, I don'tlike this green color, it's not
turning out the way I want, I'mjust going to unravel it, I'm
going to burn it, I'm going togive it away.
So very many people tend tostart a craft project that maybe
actually had started out as apassion project and then they

(25:27):
force themselves to finish itbecause they think they should.
And maybe at that point of time,a Friday evening, where you
were very tired and you think,oh, I have to finish this
sweater and I'm actually, I haveto count 400 stitches and
divide it by seven, but I haveto finish it because I can't
start a new thing before Ifinish this.
To finish it because I can'tstart a new thing before I
finish this.
And then, actually, the levelof structure it's way too loose,

(25:47):
maybe, or too high, or it's toodifficult.
And then it is not giving youwhat it could be giving you,
namely all of these healthpromoting effects.
And then you are on a smallscale.
Actually, it's not like you arebeing unhealthy or you are

(26:11):
making yourself stressed, butyou are definitely not gaining
what could have been gained,namely stress reduction and a
sense of achieving somethingthat is meaningful and
everything else.
So my advice for people who arenot professional craft persons
is you should always have atleast 10 things going on at the

(26:35):
same time, because one thing cannever, ever give you the same
effects, ever give you the sameeffects.

so if you only have one thing going and you
have on a an average day or onan average week, are you?

listening.
No, it's so important becauseif you are, if you only have one
thing and you have differentenergy levels all the time I
mean from when you start themorning till the evening, or in
a week maybe you were just in avery stressed period of your
life and if you only have onething, it's very unlikely that
that one thing has thedifficulty level that fits you.

(27:13):
So of course, you need to have20 or 30.
I have 30 things.

And it almost sounds like you have given a lot
of people excuses for justhanging out and doing a lot of
projects here.

Why do you say that as?

a bad thing as bad yeah.

You somehow hear your contentment that you are
an excuse for people to pursuewhatever they love doing.
Instead of polluting, whatshould give be giving them a
meaningful hour of sensing,cultivating positive emotions

(27:54):
and giving them flow and havinga relaxation response and
achieving something meaningfuland really, you know, feedback
to their sense of passion andtherefore undermining or filling
up their psychological needs.
And that is why we need to havea hobby.

(28:16):
So if having a hobby suddenlyfeels like just another task I
have to get over and done with,because I have started this and
it looks like a mess if I don'tfinish it, and I'm a messy
person because someone like you,jesper, said that oh, you have
way too many projects, butaren't you going to finish them?

(28:36):
I once actually my mother oncesaid that to me.
I have a whole wall.
I have a wall with 30 differentprojects.
So and it's?
I have made a system of highand low structure and I have
made systems of what and whereand how I can use them.
So I'm always, I can always picksomething that will suit me and

(29:00):
once my mom, you know, saidlike you did, like aren't you
going to finish all this?
And I just took out the sweaterand I just cut it in two half.
It's finished now, because it'snot what it's about.
I mean, I have maybe 30sweaters.
It's not like I'm knittingsweaters because I am cold.
I'm not cold anymore.

(29:21):
I have enough sweaters and I'm.
It's just not.
I'm not in.
I'm not in the game because Imiss a sweater.

It's not the functionality that is the
purpose.

I also sometimes say to people if you are
sitting a Friday evening andyou're drinking a bottle of wine
let's say it costs I don't know70 euro or whatever and you're
not sitting there drinking itand thinking about, oh, what a
waste, I have to go to thetoilet and pee in a minute, I
mean you're enjoying the processeven though it costs seven

(29:54):
pounds.
Or if you go to a restaurantand you eat and you enjoy it and
you are paying I don't know$100, £100 or whatever and you
don't sit there and being, youknow, pondering about oh, I have
to go to the toilet and youknow, get rid of all this it's
just a waste of money.

(30:15):
No, and in the same sense wecould just carve a spoon, knit a
sweater or do whatever we likeand just be in the process and
actually, in a very radicalthing, we could just burn it,
but that would feel stupid.
But of course we shouldn't burnit.
But if we are in it becausewhen I experiment with a new

(30:37):
pattern or I also make a lot ofwoodwork, I love to learn new
things and I build houses and Ilove it and of course I'm not
burning down the houseafterwards, but it's just
amazing just to learn new things.
And sometimes I'm just doingnew techniques because when I
have to count and I have tolearn something new and I have

(31:00):
to really get intensely focused,that is where the amygdala is
100% not spiraling up all theadrenaline and everything else.
We have zero stress response inour body when we are creating
things.
So it's also my medicine.
I have a lot of tendency to bestressed because I'm a very yeah

(31:25):
, my mind drives very fast.
I'm better now, but I used to.
And whenever our hands,whenever we are creating
something, it doesn't have to beintensely difficult.
But then we use a completelydifferent area than our anxiety
spiral.
Our amygdala is seated, so thatis why, mainly, I'm in the game

(31:50):
.

It's to promote stress.
I've noticed you use theconcept of flow a lot during
this conversation and, as wehave both read mikhaili,
wonderful book, difficult name Irehearsed saying his name
whenever I need to say it.

(32:14):
I read the book when it came out, when I was a teenager, and I
recently read it again and soI'm very familiar with his work.
But I and I hear that you'reusing the flow.
Yeah, it's one of thefoundations, but maybe for the
listeners should we talk alittle bit about what flow is,
how it works, why we study it.

Flow is the psychology of optimal
experiences and it's notdirectly you know it's not been
studied because of craft.
It's optimal experiences andit's not directly you know it's
not been studied because ofcraft.
It's optimal experiences and itfeels in the body, when you are
in flow, as meaningfulself-forgetfulness.
That's how it feels in the body, that it's meaningful, and you

(32:55):
forget yourself, you forget time, you forget everything, get
everything and it's um, it's atheory that describes how, if
you have a perfect sense of that, your skill equals the task.
If you have a task, if you are,if some kind of yeah, task is
giving to you, whatever it canbe, and you have the perfect

(33:18):
amount of skill to match it, sothere's a balance between your
skill and the task ahead of youThen it's not too difficult.
So you will start to feel thatyou feel, oh, I'm stupid, I'm
not good enough, I can't do this, this is way too difficult for
me.
Or, the other hand, it can beboring where your skill level

(33:43):
are much bigger than the task.
So then you would be bored andif you are bored, you will have
what I call access attention.
We all know that if you'resitting somewhere and the
conversation or whatever themeeting we are in is boring,
then we will start to zoom out.
Our excess attention will haveyou know, yeah, we will always

(34:07):
do that.
That's what we do as humanbeings Our left side of the
brain will start to constructthings and we will start to what
I'm going to do tonight andhave I bought these, whatever?
And that is where we can startto produce what is called an
internal stress response.
It's actually where you canimagine very negative things.

(34:29):
So, even being bored, peoplewould think that being bored is
relaxing, but it's not, becausevery often we tend to use our
excess attention to createanxiety or create something that
we are worried about, becausethat is our negativity bias
going.
We will probably do that.
So the only place which is notvery instinctively

(34:54):
understandable it's notintuitively something that
people understand is wheneverthere is a balance between skill
and challenge.
Then there is no need for thebody to produce any stress
hormones.
That's actually the only placewhere we don't have any stress
going on in our body.

(35:15):
So that's why I also say it'sthe world's most shitty advice
Lorde Råd in Danish, shittyadvice to say to someone oh, go
home and take care of yourselfand do nothing.
And that is maybe where thispseudo work guy sometimes I can

(35:35):
be this promoting or somehowsaying doing nothing is good or
not working is good.
Of course, not working doesn'tmean that you are inactive, but
not working could mean thatyou're not doing something that
is meaningless or feels pseudo.
So I would say that if we arenot working and we get the

(35:56):
advice, go home, take care ofyourself and do nothing, I would
say instead, the good advicewould be go home and do
something that is perfectlybalanced.
So do something that you likedoing that has the perfect fit
between skill and challenges andflow.
Also.
There's actually three thingsthat keeps people in flow.

(36:19):
The one thing is this balancebetween skill and challenge and
the other thing is that thereneed to be proximal goals,
meaning that everything that youdo needs to lead to the next
logical thing, like and that iswhy craft has built in it so

(36:40):
many things that keeps us inflow.
Because if you are carving, it'sso proximal goal ahead of you
always, because you can alwayssee what you should do.
And if you're knitting or youare doing whatever food or
something, it's so the goal isjust lying there, very
meaningful ahead of you.
You can see where you're going.

(37:01):
It's not something that youhave.
Oh, what should I?
Now it's there, it's justpresenting itself.
And the third thing is that youneed to have feedback, either
from someone or, preferably,from the material itself.
You can see am I on the righttrack?
Is it's going okay?
So whenever you have a perfectbalance between skill and

(37:23):
challenge and have proximalgoals and have feedback, then
the game continues, because it'salways leading you on to.
Whenever it's beginning to geta little bit too boring, then
you can just up the game.
You can just do faster, you canexperiment, you can put a new
color in, you can chop it alittle bit different, or you can

(37:43):
I have to flavor thisdifferently, or whatever.
So that is the funny thing isthat at the end of the challenge
, the end of why people want tobecome better, why learning is
not something that is horriblewe love to learn because at the

(38:03):
end of the game is freedom.
When we have experienced a lotof, when we have overcome a lot
of challenge and our skill levelare extremely high, then
suddenly you can just see a dish, or you can see a spoon, or you
can see a sweater, and you justknow instantly at that moment

(38:28):
how it's done, and that'sfreedom.

So yeah, learning to do and keep going
gives you freedom learning to doand keep going gives you
freedom, oh, but to not drown inambition.

(38:51):
I think this it's just veryhealthy to to line this um
mechanism, aiming for theultimate uh skill level and my
freedom and becoming soproficient.
Sometimes I'm just knittinganother pair of socks because I
am while while we're driving oror watching a movie, or you know

(39:12):
, sometimes we just take it downto the.
I'm just doing this becauseit's nice to do.

Oh yeah, I mean you should have all range of
difficulty and I have somethingthat I call high and low
structure, and low structure andhigh structure is I mean it's
equally health promoting andhigh structure.
Or recreating something itcould be a Lego kit or it could

(39:41):
be a sweater from Petit Knit orsomething.
It's a step-by-stepinstructions.
If you take out a recipe andyou just follow it completely
step-by-step.
That's high structure andthat's very calming for people
and that's what you need on avery worn out Friday evening.
And then there's low structure.

(40:02):
Low structure is what you calla real creative task.
It's open-ended and it doesn'thave any step-by-step.
That tends to keep people morein a flow state.
But if you are very tired andyou are very stressed and
actually if you are prescribinglow structure projects for
people who are highly stressed,they actually have the opposite

(40:26):
of they feel more stressed.
It's not very good and that issomething that I'm teaching
people that if you are awell-rested, extremely capable
craft therapist and you arethinking, oh, I have 12 stressed
, long-term negative stressedwomen and let's get them into

(40:49):
this craft activity course andlet's just take all the colors
in the whole world and just highmusic and just, oh, just knit,
paint whatever your feelingslike, and the most people will
say that it's so low structurethat most people just kind of
feel I'm just going to say, no,thank you, Give me a kit of

(41:14):
something that I can know how todo.
And then, of course, step bystep, you can loosen the
structure.
But often, if people have highstress, just attending a course,
just being around with otherpeople, will make them feel that
it's a bit overwhelming andlose structure, have the
tendency to make people feeloverwhelmed and feel like, oh,

(41:38):
was this good enough or did I dothis right?
So, high and low structure.
I recommend that you have these10 projects ranging from high
and low structure and easy anddifficult, because there's also
have another thing.

I always have something completely high
structure, easy when I sit andknit because making was young,
as I mentioned, books, movies,different kind of things, and in
my work I'm creating all fromcampaigns to websites, to you
name it.
But that is mostly mindcreating and I'm using my mind.
But have you, in your research,dived into why is it with the
hands?
What is it that it gives back?
Is it the textile feedbackthrough the hands?
What is it that makes thedifference between me creating
something on my computer versussitting with the hands, feeling

(42:57):
the wood and these kind ofthings?

yeah, I mean there's absolutely no difference
.
But it's just no one everdefined the area of craft
psychology.
And if you take computer gamesor I mean I know that it's not
computer games you're talkingabout but if you are creating a
website or you're creatingsomething else, it could be
equally flow generating, itcould be equally health

(43:23):
beneficial for someone who'screating that.
The thing is that I have theeffects, the five effects that I
have found.
One of the effects with craftis that it makes this relaxation
response and that is somethingwhere you are making a
repetitive movement, like whenyou are handed a kid no, a very

(43:45):
upset kid, a small baby.
You don't have to be taught todo like this, because repetitive
movements creates thisrelaxation response in our body.
And and creating on a computersometimes, very often they don't
have the same kind ofmateriality, but it's also

(44:07):
creating and you will also, youknow, diminishing your amygdala.
Creation of you cannot createsomething, whether it is on a
computer or it's with your handsand having high anxiety.
It's not possible.

So so in that sense it's fine, it's just um
but I just feel the, when I,when I can feel the feedback on
on the wood with my hands,something different happens it
is, and that is why about 25 30percent of our cortex, our

(44:42):
motoric cortex use, is used tocontrol our hands.

So there's a very high feedback from our
hands and that stimulates a higharousal in our brain.
So it's easier for people tohave enough arousal or have
enough sense of the excessattention is used whenever
you're using your hands.
So that's one thing, is it'sit's easier for people to come

(45:11):
into flow if you have a sensoricmotoric activation of your
hands, because they're such alarge area of your cortex that
uses hands, motoric skills.
And it's also the other thingabout seeing and carving a spoon
or sweater or something else.

(45:32):
It's this feedback and thefeedback from the material is
also an important thing forpeople to feel that they had
created something meaningful.
And that's the fifth effectthat all these micro-success
experiences that people can seethat one carve or one, what's it

(45:55):
called?
Uh, whenever you do it orwhenever you knit one stitch
repetition.
you can actually see from thebeginning to the end how well
you're doing.
It's an obvious and it's atangible objects where you can
see your progress and there'snot that many things where you

(46:16):
can actually see how well am Idoing.
I can see from the beginning itlooked like shit and then half
an hour later I can see there'sa spoon, there's a row and all
these micro success experiences.
That produces a lot of thesedopamine hormones that we can
wow.
I did this, I did this and soit's tangible in a way that very

(46:39):
few other things are in ourlives.
You can see the progress, youcan have micro success
experiences and that is whatbuilds self-esteem.

I was curious to the list.
You said you have found fiveeffects.
You said one and now I'm readyfor two.

yeah, yeah, I have this in my book, I have
this model and I don't knowmaybe we can present it yeah, if
you send a pdf we can.
Yeah, because that is, um, youknow, kind of everything that I
did combined in a model so it'seasy for people to see.
And one of the effects is, orthe biggest effect is, flow.
And the other big effect iscalmness.

(47:22):
This where these repetitivemovements and everything that
might be high structure, easy,where you are using your excess
attention and you can use it asa mean to be with others and so
on.
That is the other big effect.
And the third big effect ispositive emotions Having this

(47:43):
cultivation of positive emotions, which are quite difficult,
meaning joy and hope andinterest and all the other
positive emotions.
And since we have a negativitybias, we need to pay attention
to do things every day thatcultivates positive emotions.
And since we have a negativitybias, we need to pay attention
to do things every day thatcultivates positive emotions.
And the fourth big effect arethis achievement, this sense of

(48:06):
creating something, as I saidbefore, that's tangible and has
this sense of that.
It feels meaningful to createsomething where you can see all
your micro success experiences,not that you have to produce
something in order to, you know,have other people to admire, to
admire you.
It's not then, actually, ifyou're only doing things because

(48:30):
you hate it, so you can post iton instagram.
Then it's not longer, then it'snot an intrinsic motivated
activity, then it's not longer,then it's not an intrinsic
motivated activity, then it's nolonger a passion.
And then you are slowly byslowly yeah, polluting your
passion.
So you shouldn't do somethingjust to get it over and done

(48:52):
with and just so you can havelikes.
Then stop doing it, stopyourself because it's a pity.
And the fifth effect is capacity, and it's only a theoretical
effect actually, because youcannot.
But it's where it's how thebrain works, that every time you
learn something new, thesynaptic connections are built.

(49:16):
So the brain works, works likewith.
You know, use it or lose it.
So if you have a deep passionto learn something new, it's
also like through science youcan just see that people who
keep learning and keep learningnew things, new difficult things
, have a later onset dementia.
It doesn't have to be craft, itcan also be academic work, but

(49:36):
whenever you have something thatyou love doing, you're more
likely to learn something newand keep learning something new
and go on to courses and keepmeeting with people, and social
meetings are quite complex forthe brain as well.
And that's all this researchthat I found from the Finnish.

(49:56):
They are making a lot of reallyinteresting science about the
brain and craft and making.
If you have an image of, let'ssay, a sweater you saw on the
streets or you saw a verycomplex carved spoon at a market
and you just saw it a glimpseand then you just saw this image

(50:18):
in your brain and then you gohome and creating an internal
image into a 3d thing in yourhands is maybe the most complex
thing our brain can do, becauseit's both all the limbic system
you have to what did it feellike, what was it and all theic
motoric movements with yourhands and you have to really use

(50:40):
all the association cortex andyour memory.
So it creates what the Finnishpeople are after, these meta
skills called an ability to makecomplex problem solving, called
an ability to make complexproblem solving.
So if you are after makingpeople more able to create or to

(51:04):
make problem solving, thendoing that having people to do
an internal picture intosomething tangible, 3d that's
how you create people who arehighly skilled in complex
problem solving.
So that's also, yeah, an effectof making.
Craft is capacity, and thenthere's this dome of passion and

(51:29):
making, where the activitymaking a passion, work, doing
your passion for one hour it'sthe direct link into
psychological well-being andthat is the three basic
psychological needs autonomy,competence and social
relatedness and they are always,by some magical thing, just met

(51:53):
whenever you're doing yourpassion.
So it's um, yeah, and of course, craft making is not better
than exercise or singing ormusic, everything.
But there's so much scienceabout that.
The thing is that no one evercreated a model for or a
psychology for making crafts.
So I'm not trying to say thisis better than anything, it's

(52:16):
just there's so much scienceabout why it's healthy to sleep
together or why it's healthy toread or why it's healthy to
exercise.

So but it also feels like an.
It also feels like anoverlooked area where there is
this kind of uh, as I, for fun,like said oh, aren't you just
giving people excuses it is.
It is almost like I wouldpresume there's some prejudice
around uh doing crafts, as it'sjust a hobby yeah, it's nothing,

(52:47):
yeah, it's nothing.
So so, um, have you met this inthe professional uh area, where
, where the scientist and whenyou have done your research,
that there can be a prejudiceand like this is not really
research, it's just people?

not not that my work is not really research, but
because I think it really helpsthat I'm a doctor in psychology
and because, because, if I wasbefore, if I'm educated as a
craft person Hohnerbeidslehrerand craft person before that and

(53:24):
I think if I had made theresearch or tried to say the
same thing as I do now, as if Iwere a craft person, I think
sometimes when I go in to talkto the ministry, or in a few
weeks I'm going to talk abouthealth promoting, kraft as
health promoting.
On the pension, nordea pension,they have all the CEOs of all

(53:51):
the biggest Fortune 500 and howto promote health, fortune 500
and how to promote health.
And then craft is somethingthat, oh, we need to look at.
How can we use craft?
Maybe to diminish stress or tomonitor people's well-being,
because we know thatpsychological well-being is a

(54:12):
driver of physical well-being.
So suddenly they have invited mein to talk about why is it
healthy to make craft?
And I think suddenly it'sbecause I'm not just saying, oh,
it feels so good to sit andknit.
No, I say if you are doing somerepetitive movements, you are
activating your parasympatheticnervous system and then you are

(54:35):
leveling out your serotoninlevel as well.
If you're having all thesemicro doses of dopamine and when
you are sitting and having aperfect balance between skill
and challenge and you areactually no stress responses in
your body, and because I say allthis and because there is
science behind it and because Iam a doctor in psychology, then
they are.

(54:56):
Oh, okay, okay, that's reallyit's really something and, yes,
sometimes I in the beginningpeople thought are you really
making a psychology of craft?
I mean, is that a thing?
And Now, nine years later, thebook is out in the whole world
and I have educated 31foundation programs in craft

(55:20):
psychology and people are usingthe word craft psychology and
it's yeah, are we men opening upfor it?

My prejudice is that it's more women who are
naturally inclined to do craftwork.
Yeah, you don't know that it'sunder the radar.

I very often when I talk to men and I say,
well, whenever you are, youmight think that you are doing
sports and exercises.
Men like maybe to you know,bicycle, that they are preparing
, mending, they are greasing andthat's a craft.

(56:01):
And very many men like to cookand they maybe grill.
Or if they are fishing, maybe,yes, fishing is maybe not a
craft, but then they arepreparing the food they are
fishing and then they are maybecooking the fish or they are
preparing and making all thesekind of things that they are

(56:23):
fishing with.
And there's so many things thatgoes under the radar that men
might think, oh, I'm not a craftperson.
But if we look closely, it'salso cooking, it's also doing
all kinds of repairs in the homeand it's just.
Men often think that, oh, craftis knitting, and it's also

(56:46):
because 70% of everyone whowould say I have a passion for
something would knit.
It's by far the biggest hobbyof everything.
So of course I very often comeout to give speeches and I'm
very often interviewed about whyis it healthy to knit, and I

(57:09):
always start by saying it's nota knitting psychology, it's a
craft psychology.
Because there's so manyknitters, it just becomes, oh,
knitting.
But men are equally, and I'malso having this cooperation
with bushcraft Jesper Hilde, whois a bushcrafter, and bushcraft

(57:33):
people who are out in the wildand preparing food, making
bonfires, making wildlife isalso a craft by large.
It's a craft activity.
So there's so many craftactivities that people might not
think of as craft activities,but it is of ass craft

(57:58):
activities, but it is so.

I've been thinking about your, the way you
see yourself, yeah, as someonewho just found out, because now
you're whittling yeah but I'veknown you for most of my life
and we met when we wereteenagers so actually, I have
known you for most of my lifeand you've also been drawing a
lot.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you enjoy that, and you've been very
passionate about cutting thehedge when we had a house.

Oh, I was the best.

And the grass on the garden and the way that you
had the angles right and whenthere was snow, you would be the
happiest person on the planet.
Yeah, the funny thing is and Ihope that this could be a
takeaway for you and maybe formany other people who are doing
craft activities exactly and ifyou're doing crafts that looks

(58:48):
like chores, like the garden orcleaning the house or cooking
the food, and you really enjoydoing it and you enjoy putting
in a lot of quote-unquote,unnecessary hours because you
like doing it in a perfect wayor with this special tool, or I
mean, I have never seen a streetthat clear of snow ever in my

(59:13):
life but in a beautiful comparedto ours when we had a house and
there was a you know, a pridein the, no salt and whatever,
yeah, um, then just, you know,own it, enjoy.
Own that, you enjoy it becausewe had a lot of conversations.
You were very this is necessaryand everyone else are

(59:35):
irresponsible, but in a way,just own that, you love it, just
do it with.
How great is it?
That's something that needs tobe done that you can love doing
it it is very basic instinct.

All these kind of dry, warm, fit and everything
that we do in our home and inour houses are, of course, if we
love doing them and shovelingsnow or moving the lawn or
cutting the hench, whatever itis so basic craft activity.
And everyone would say thatsuddenly, oh, four hours have

(01:00:14):
passed.
Oh, four hours have passed, andjust bit by bit, you can just
get into this movement of makingthe same perfect movement.
That just feels the same sense.
I would guess that peopleplaying golf would think they
just know the perfect shovelwhere you can have the perfect
amount and you can.

(01:00:34):
It's just basic.

Cecilie Conrad (01:00:36):
All the effects that I have described, it's,
it's there and yeah but I thinkwe have that christian moral
kind of layer coming on top ofthings and maybe the whole
confusion with themonetarization that was a hard
word of things that we have.
We have this we have to be busyand productive and do hard work

(01:01:00):
in order to be good people.
So you, we can all have atendency to fall into the trap
of explaining oh, I need socksbecause my kids, they have very
sensitive feet and they can'twear normal socks, and so I have
to do it.
Or but it's very important forthe hedge to be cut in this

(01:01:22):
specific way because otherwiseit will not bounce back next
spring whatever and you know youcan always come up with these
explanations that has to do withnecessity and has to do with
with with money.
But maybe we could peel thatlayer off and go back to the
meaning of life and the wholemeaningfulness.

(01:01:45):
Are we allowed to be?
Is it okay to be happy?
Just be happy, to be happy withno other reason than I want to
be happy?
Yeah, but that's also.

Anne Kirketerp (01:01:54):
I mean, oh, I'm very I really try to make
everything that I have as achore, to be mindful about it
and to own it and to be notlonging to get it over and done
with.
So if I have to move the lawn,I have to do so, or chop woods

(01:02:14):
or something and just go into itand just this is just a
wonderful activity and it'squite, it's, it's, it's, it's.
It's not very healthy forpeople to long for this.
I don't know what's thatEnglish, you know, where you
have no maintenance, yeah, nomaintenance.
Houses where you don't have todo anything.

(01:02:37):
You are 75, 70, 85, and you are,oh, I just have to sell my
house, so I don't have anythingto maintain, and then you would
sit in front of the televisionand you would have a depression
and almost 40% of all people inDenmark over 75 have
antidepressant pills, because ifyou're too inactive it is

(01:02:58):
impossible for people not tohave a very high anxiety spiral
upwards.
So whenever, even though youdon't like actually moving the
lawn, you would still findyourself maybe in this sense of
self-forgetfulness, because themovements, the thing, the
constant feedback from the lawn,the constant feedback from

(01:03:20):
whatever you're doing, willstill produce micro dopamine
expression, it will still havehealth beneficial effects and
you will still feel proud andinterested.
So it's easier for people tomaintain and to keep doing
things.
If it comes from a passion, ofcourse it's easier, but it's

(01:03:42):
still.
Even though you don't reallylike to remove all the snow from
the wave, it still will havethe same effects.
So, if people are as you say,just I actually like it.
And yes, maybe it's not fun fun, maybe I'm not like wanting to

(01:04:05):
move all the other people's lawn, but I actually like doing it.
So owning it and be mindfulwhenever we, when we are doing
it and not getting into the gameand always looking at when can
I be finished?
So how can I get this over anddone with?
But just, yes, this is perfect.

Jesper Conrad (01:04:27):
And I'm trying to find a way to round up because
we try to keep our episodesaround an hour.
But I have one more question.
It is what surprised you themost in your research, where I'm
curious about was it like ahamoments or what?
Or something like oh, I hadn'tthought about that?

well, there was, um, maybe the biggest aha
moment was that I structured, orI found out that there are
equally health benefits fromwhat I call this recreational
and creative, meaning the highand low structure, because there

(01:05:09):
are so many people who admirepeople who are designing
themselves and oh, it's so muchfiner and oh, I'm just knitting
after a pattern or I am justdoing lego, but that's actually
to find out that it's equallyhealth beneficial.
So there's no need to be sorryabout to say that, oh, I'm just

(01:05:31):
knitting socks and they are very, very difficult.
I'm knitting them with lots andlots of things, I have to count
all the time and put new colors, and then they feel kind of, oh
, I should do something finer, Ishould be a designer.
No, I think that was somethingthat has deliberated very many
people in that sense.

(01:05:52):
And the last thing I would say,the big thing was it was so
obvious and it's what.
I have a PhD in motivation andenterprising behavior, and so it
shouldn't have been a commareally.
But what I found was that allthe things that people would
talk to me about having apassion I never actually quite

(01:06:17):
thought of.
People have a hobby, a passion,because it's a shortcut to
psychological well-being.
I never actually I knew thatbeing intrinsic motivated is
where you have fulfilled yourbasic psychological needs, but I
never actually made theconnection of oh, yes, that is

(01:06:38):
why people have a hobby, becausethey feel autonomous, they have
completely sense of freedom andvoluntarily freedom and they
feel completely competent andthey have this very easy way to
feel connected with other peopleand to do something for other
people so they would feelconnected and wow, it's just.
That is why people have a hobby, to have psychological

(01:07:01):
well-being, and yeah, that'smaybe a very weird thing to have
an epiphany about.
Oh, that is why people have ahobby.
It's because they feelpsychological, they have
psychological well-being.

But we're back in that uh danish little poem,
the cook thing.
You know, we study the thingswe already knew and and I, I
think I I get it in a way.
Why is that a surprise?

but in a way it is a surprise yeah, and it's so
important for us to do it andnot and to do it when we are the
most energetic.
And I always say that youshould do your hobby the hour
after you come home or maybe thefirst hour in the day, so you
don't wait to do your hobbieswhen you think you have done all

(01:07:51):
your chores and then after nineo'clock or ten o'clock in the
evening you think I'm going todo my hobby, but then you're too
worn out and then you don't doit at the level that could
actually spark all the healthbeneficial effects.
So do it, because it's equallyimportant as physical exercise.
It's the way to sparkpsychological wellbeing and it's

(01:08:11):
so important for ourphysiological wellbeing to have
a high psychologicalwellbeing-being.

Absolutely.
And for people who want to getto know more about craft
psychology, or maybe even wantto work inside the field, where
can they find you?
How can they dive deeper intoit?
Can you mention a little aboutthat?

Yeah, of course I have written a book and the
book is out everywhere inEnglish, also in Danish, and
I've just made an audio book inEnglish as well.
I also have an audio book inDanish, and on my webpage,
craftpsychologycom, you can findmuch more about things, things,

(01:09:03):
and we are coming out with lotsof short videos of how to make
craft activities to maybe dampenstress, so it's become a little
bit more therapeutic how youcan use craft exercises in
specific areas.
Yeah, so that's also coming,but that will be on my webpage,
craftpsychologycom.

So that seems easy let's put it in the show
notes in case.

But yeah, not hard to know remember I I could
keep on talking, but let's,let's, uh, let's close down.
So I would say, anna, it hasbeen a really a big pleasure
talking to you and, uh, it hasgiven me some more peace of mind
doing my things and I will walkaway very inspired from this.

(01:09:45):
Thanks a lot for your time.

Thank you so much for having me here.
Thank you, it's been a pleasure.

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111: Anne Kirketerp | Craft Psychology: The Link Between Crafting & Wellbeing

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}111: Anne Kirketerp | Craft Psychology: The Link Between Crafting & Wellbeing