Iris Chen, author of Untigering: Peaceful Parenting for the Deconstructing Tiger Parent, shares how she shifted from a strict, high-expectation parenting style to a trust-based approach.
Raised in a Chinese-American household, Iris grew up with academic pressure and obedience as the norm. She carried those expectations into her own parenting—until she saw how control and punishment were harming her relationship with her children. A parenting workshop on neuroscience led her to rethink discipline, ultimately guiding her toward unschooling.
This conversation looks at how tiger parenting is often rooted in intergenerational trauma, especially in immigrant communities where educational success is tied to security and acceptance. Instead of accepting these methods as “cultural,” Iris encourages parents to examine their origins and whether they truly serve their children today.
📚 Learn more about Iris Chen and Untigering
- https://untigering.com
- https://www.instagram.com/untigering
- https://www.facebook.com/untigering
- https://x.com/untigering
- https://www.facebook.com/irischenauthor
🗓️ Recorded March 17th, 2025. 📍 Barcelona, Spain
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:00):
So today we're together with Iris Chen and
first of all, welcome.
It's good to see you and meetyou, and I look forward to our
chat today.
Iris Chen (00:09):
Yeah, it's so nice to meet both of you.
Jesper Conrad (00:12):
So, iris, I saw you on this Unschooling Summit
website and read the descriptionand was like, ooh, we would
love to interview Iris for ourpodcast, and what caught my eye
was the term untigering andunschooling and how all that
knits together.
(00:34):
So I don't know exactly wherewe should start, but maybe
before we can talk aboutuntigering, we should maybe talk
about what a tiger mom or thephrase is, if you can explain
that first for people who areunfamiliar with the term.
Iris Chen (00:50):
Yeah, so Amy Chua, who is like a Yale law professor
, wrote a book called the BattleHymn of the Tiger Mother.
I think this was in 2011.
And it became a very popularbook.
People had really strongreactions to it because she was
pretty much saying that thequote unquote Chinese way of
(01:13):
parenting will help you raiselike high achieving children,
high achieving, successfulchildren.
And so she in her book it'ssort of like a tongue in cheek
memoir talking about herparenting style, and that's
where the term tiger parentingsort of arose from.
(01:33):
It's this idea of a verydemanding, high expectation type
of parenting with, like thegoal to raise your children to
be successful, also highachieving, oftentimes
emotionally distant and yeah,all of those things.
(01:55):
And so I think she is Chinese,american and being raised also
as a Chinese American, secondgeneration immigrant.
This type of parenting is likevery familiar to many of us
because it's just theexpectation of being like doing
(02:16):
well in school, obedience, notquestioning that.
And so when I had my ownchildren, it was going to be
like there was a lot about mychildhood that I was like I'm
(02:37):
not going to do that.
We're going to give hugs, we'regoing to say I love you, you,
things like that but then reallystill having these unquestioned
expectations of how my childrenwere to behave, how they were
to perform, yeah, just what myexpectations were in terms of,
(02:57):
like, doing well in school,being smart, getting good grades
, all of that.
And so I continued on that pathuntil, yeah, like, it's
probably definitely a process,but I got to the point where I
saw that that path was leadingme to very dark places, both in
(03:19):
my relationship with my childand just seeing what was
happening to him, because I hadall this pressure and
expectations on him and itwasn't necessarily to do so much
with academics at that point hewas fairly young, but it was
just my desire to control and,just like, instill absolute
(03:47):
obedience in him.
Like, I had very highexpectations for myself, had
very high expectations for himand so parented in a way that
was very controlling, verypunitive, and our relationship
really began to devolve andfinally sort of came to a
(04:08):
breaking point where I realizedI went to a parenting workshop.
I thought I was doing all theright things.
And then I went to thisparenting workshop and they were
talking about neuroscience andbrain biology and what happens
to our kids when we punish themand yell at them and send them
to a corner or take away theirtoys, and just how their body
(04:33):
goes into that fight, flight,freeze cycle, because they feel
like they're under threat andthey can't calm down.
They are just reacting out ofthat fear, and so for me, that
was the first time I recognizedthat the way I was parenting,
what I was doing, was actuallycausing some of the behaviors
(04:55):
that I didn't want to see, and Irealized like I needed to
change if I expected him tochange, to change if I expected
him to change.
Jesper Conrad (05:09):
And one of the things you touch upon is that we
are a result of how we wereparented.
I, when I look at my childhood,I'm raised in Denmark.
That's a way different way ofbeing a parent and also was then
.
But I believe all of us whohave grown into becoming parents
can, at some point when we haveyoung children, be like oh, it
(05:34):
was like hearing my dad shoutingthe same words at me and now it
came out of my mouth and it isreally, really hard to break the
cycles, even though we know andfeel what is wrong and right.
Then I remember standing andbeing like oh, that's some of
the things I have hoped I wouldnever say.
Iris Chen (05:56):
Yeah, so I felt like I was becoming somebody who I
didn't want to be, you know,even though I had said I'm not
going to do those things, but Iabsolutely ended up doing them.
So it's not just like anintellectual idea.
(06:17):
I think we have to.
There's some like healing workthat has to be done, where we
need to address some of the ways.
Maybe we were raised somechildhood wounds in order to
like confront what's coming out?
Jesper Conrad (06:33):
yeah, but, iris, do you think that the stereotype
I have had painted of thechinese parenting is this more
strict and, as you say, obedientway of maybe being a parent and
more obedient children?
But I'm like, how much of astereotype is it?
How true is it?
(06:54):
Because I mean, it's very roughto say all Chinese parents are
like this, but I don't know ifthere's something about it, what
is your take on it?
I mean.
Iris Chen (07:03):
Mean, I think part of it is the immigrant community,
maybe all as well, where youmight have, um, immigrants who
come to a country that is nottheir own and believe that
following the rules, doing wellat school, is their path to
success, and so there's maybe alot of emphasis on that.
(07:26):
So I actually lived in China formany years and obviously
there's, like you know, billionsof people in China and you
can't say that all parenting isthe same.
But I think there are culturalelements where, culturally,
education is very highly valued.
In Chinese culture.
(07:46):
This goes back to ancient timeswhere they had the imperial
exams, and so even those whowere of like a lower class could
test and become a bureaucratthrough these imperial exams.
And so, yeah, I think academics, that intellectual aspect, is
(08:11):
highly valued in the culture,and also it's a very
hierarchical culture in someways there's the filial piety,
there's expectations of howrelationships you know just the
order of relationships where theelders are shown respect and
stuff like that, and so thereare aspects that are culturally
(08:34):
resonant, I think, but of coursethere's always exceptions, yeah
, I remember when it came outTiger Mountain Book, it was a
big deal.
Cecilie Conrad (08:45):
There was a lot of talk about it back in
Scandinavia.
Iris Chen (08:49):
Oh.
Cecilie Conrad (08:50):
How that was.
Iris Chen (08:52):
Yeah, it's interesting because it's also a
stereotype, I guess, ofScandinavian parenting and it's
sort of like in contrast totiger parenting, wouldn't you
say?
Cecilie Conrad (09:06):
yeah, yeah, but I mean we lived it at the time
and just remember when it cameout, how different the style was
to the.
Even the mainstream ideals Imean we're radical from our
culture but even the mainstreamideas about what a childhood
should look like and howrelationships between family
(09:29):
members should be, and and howchildren should feel about
themselves and how much respectthere should be around their
needs, and yeah, and so I thinkwhen, when you were asking me
before, like, why do peopletiger parent?
Iris Chen (09:43):
I think when you were asking me before, like, why do
people tiger parent?
I think that's what you wereasking.
I think a lot of it has to dowith trauma, like historical
trauma and cultural that'sbecome embedded in the culture.
So, even though it's labeledlike, oh, that's just part of my
(10:05):
culture, that's just theChinese way, or whatever, I
think we also need to recognizehow a lot of that is based in
trauma of like poverty,starvation, the need to
assimilate if you're animmigrant, you're an immigrant
(10:28):
Like there's a lot of layers.
That when we recognize thatit's rooted in trauma, we can
begin to heal and let go of someof those, instead of just
taking on that label.
It's like, oh well, that's justpart of my culture, or I'm
Chinese, or I'm Asian or I'mwhatever background, and so
that's just the way my people doit.
I don't think it's aninevitability.
I think that's something thatwe need to examine and recognize
(10:50):
like oh, what is the root causeof some of these ways of
thinking, these attitudestowards children and towards our
life in?
Jesper Conrad (10:59):
general.
You mentioned being from animmigrant background and I'm
just thinking the fear ofstepping out of line.
If you are in a new country andpeople are looking at you and
you also look different, it'slike there can be this need for
control where you want to be asuccess and not step out of line
so people can't say something.
(11:20):
I can see how that can bring itforward.
But then from tigering tountigering and then to
unschooling, how can I askdirectly how has your parents
taken that?
Because that is I mean for me,when I in the start, we didn't
tell my mom that we wereunschooling it was homeschooling
(11:42):
was already weird.
It took some years until sheunderstood what we did and and
now she's fine with it.
But in the start I mean andthat's even in the Danish
culture it was a little weirdfor her like that.
What is it?
And then, with your culturalbackground, how did they take it
?
Iris Chen (12:02):
so we were actually living in China at that time
when we first startedunschooling.
So we were like miles away frommy family, which in some ways
created some distance.
So they were they were notalways like, they didn't have a
microscope on us, they couldn'tsee what we were doing at all
the times, and so we justtreated it sort of like an
(12:26):
experiment, because we wereforeigners, like even though
we're ethnically Chinese, myhusband and I, we we didn't have
the same rights as the localfamilies, so we couldn't get our
children into the local publicschools, so the the access to
(12:46):
institutions and schooling andeverything was different.
We had to sort of like piece ittogether or like make up our
own way.
So a lot of foreigners in ourcommunity were homeschooling and
that was just a normal thing,like many people who live
overseas, if they don't have thesame educational system, will
(13:08):
either go to like aninternational school, private
school or homeschool, and so wewere already sort of like
homeschooling at that point,also sending them to like a
local kindergarten, montessori,kindergarten and different
things like that kindergarten,montessori, kindergarten and
different things like that.
(13:32):
So I think sort of like thatidea of being an immigrant again
or a foreigner in a differentplace also gave us a lot of
flexibility to try new things.
Like if we were part of thatculture, it would have been very
, very countercultural to dohomeschooling or unschooling or
anything like that.
That would, it's like prettymuch illegal there.
And but because we wereforeigners, we had more freedom
(13:54):
and so I think sort of beingweird, already being outside the
culture gave us more freedom toexplore and try new things
because in some ways, like ouroptions were limited, we had to
be creative about what, um, theoptions could be for our
(14:15):
children.
Um, but at the same time, likemy in-laws still probably don't
exactly know that we'reunschooling.
They know that we'rehomeschooling, but probably I
don't even know if their mindswould wrap around unschooling.
(14:38):
So we are back in the Statesnow but they're very hands off
and so it's like, as long as youseem to be doing well, you know
we're gonna let you do yourthing.
Jesper Conrad (14:49):
So I wouldn't say that they are necessarily
supportive, but they are atleast letting us do our thing
who when you help with theuntigering, as you call it, if
we can define what, how youuntiger and who you help with it
, what, what challenges do theyhave?
The people who who need theuntigering?
Iris Chen (15:13):
yeah.
So I mean because of my ownjourney, and once I started
unschooling, I was realizing,like, for people with my
background, this feels like verynew.
This feels like I don't knowanybody else like me doing this,
like none of my friends whogrew up, uh, in my community, my
(15:34):
Asian American friends.
This is like no, it's, it's awild choice, and so I just began
blogging about it and sharingthe challenges and the thoughts
that I was going through, and Ithink now it's like my vision,
like other than the consciousparenting aspect of it, which I
(15:57):
think is really key tounschooling in terms of undoing
some of those power dynamicsthat we have in our relationship
with other children, where wefeel like we need to direct and
control and, and and yeah, likesort of conduct everything about
(16:17):
their lives.
Um, the unschooling part isreally like wanting to just
begin to spark some imaginationwithin communities like mine and
address the cultural concerns,because there are cultural
(16:37):
concerns.
We're like a more collectivesociety or like culture, and so
our relationships with ourfamily is really important.
It is important what otherpeople think of us and our ideas
of success.
So all of those things arethings that I also try to
address from my cultural, mysocial location, as an Asian
(17:01):
American woman who has lived inChina and in the States and is
wrestling with these differentcultural norms and how to see
them and address them through alens of liberation, through a
lens of healing and just doingthe work that we need to do,
(17:26):
instead of these unquestionedtypes of ways of behaving, just
like oh well, that's just theway that has always been done,
whether it's American culture orChinese culture.
Really, I think, having livedoverseas, like being in these
liminal spaces of like beingAsian American and also being an
(17:48):
Asian American living in China,just understanding that we can
create our own culture.
We don't just have to swallowit whole.
We can examine it, see whatresonates and build a life that
is meaningful to us.
Cecilie Conrad (18:10):
I think we have a lot of different cultures
going on in this conversation.
It's quite interesting and Iactually quite struggle with
aligning all the.
With aligning all the, I meanwe have Chinese culture if
that's even a word, becauseChina is so big and we have
(18:34):
Chinese-American, and then wehave unschooling
Chinese-American, and then wehave Scandinavian, but then we
have nomadic Scandinavian, butthen we have unschooling nomadic
Scandinavian, but then we havenomadic Scandinavian, but then
we have unschooling nomadicScandinavian.
The matrix is too complicatedfor me, but what I see is I
think there are lots ofsimilarities, even though I
(18:56):
recognize the differences arehuge between my cultural
background from the far north ofEurope and yours.
Then I think some of thedynamics are the same in a way.
(19:18):
So the whole control aspect youtalked about in the beginning, I
think it's a very importantthing.
The mechanism is the same.
We get a child and we getoverwhelmed with love and with
awe and with just wanting to dothis really well.
We really want to be goodparents, not so much to impress
(19:44):
our parents we just talk aboutparents but because of the love,
basically because it's veryimportant.
Suddenly it's very, veryimportant to take care of this
little being and we want to dogood.
We want to do our very best totake care of this little being,
and then the confusion comes.
(20:04):
Then it becomes muddy.
From there on it becomes muddy,and it does become muddy in a
cultural way, but there'ssomething about it that's the
same, this control thing.
So the the tiger mom control andthe tiger mom idea of success
might look very different fromthe scandinavian control and the
(20:26):
scandinavian idea of success,but there's a mechanism.
That's the same.
I want to do good.
How can I ensure I do good?
I can ensure it by controllingthe situation.
I'm the adult.
I need to outsmart this.
I need to get on top of this.
I'll make a plan.
Jesper Conrad (20:42):
Or even I buy into a plan someone else have
made and say this is the rightway of parenting.
Cecilie Conrad (20:48):
Because I couldn't do the whole matrix of
all the cultures in play.
I was looking for similaritiesand I think that dynamic might
be the same yeah for sure.
Iris Chen (21:03):
I think power like on my journey of untangering power
is something I'm constantlyexamining because it's
definitely in play in aparent-child relationship, and I
guess during my tiger parentingdays I was like, well, that's
the way it's supposed to be,that makes complete sense,
(21:25):
because a child is cannot makegood decisions and so a parent
has to step in and make thosedecisions for them.
And I think, just on thisjourney that I've been on,
really recognizing the adultism,the dehumanizing way that we
(21:48):
see children that allows us tojustify using control over them
is because we don't actually seethem as human beings who are
worthy of dignity and respect,and so we feel like, out of
quote-unquote love, we can useour power over them.
(22:09):
And so something that I writeabout in my book is something
that I'm always like thinkingabout is like how can we be in
power with relationships withchildren, rather than power over
, and it doesn't matter I'mgonna say this and I'll see if I
(22:41):
agree with it it doesn't matterwhat our intentions are in such
a way that dehumanizes them,that disrespects them, that
doesn't honor their agency andtheir own sense of self?
Jesper Conrad (23:04):
then it's like a very paternalistic way of
looking at children and lookingat our role as parents, although
sometimes it's so much easierto just say I'm right, you're
wrong, and do it this way whenyou have the anxiety or fear
when you're adulting, if that'sa word.
Sometimes I don't do it a lotnow, but when I look back of the
(23:29):
way I've been a dad, I can seethat, based on fear, head is the
shaming, sometimes Trying tokind of shame them to do
(23:53):
something, and I hate when ithappens, but it do happen and I
believe that being aware of itis a giant step in parenting,
that you sometimes aren't thebest versions of yourself.
Sometimes we mess up and it'sactually really difficult to be
a parent.
I think I try to do my best.
Iris Chen (24:17):
I think so much of parenting is like holding a
mirror, like our child holds amirror up to us, up to us and
maybe parts of ourselves thatwere unseen or were shut down.
You know, like if we were shamedfor a particular type of
(24:39):
behavior, then there is thatreaction that trigger that fear
that our child is going toexperience that shame too for
doing whatever they're doing,and so we want to correct it so
that they don't feel shame.
But we're using shame to helpthem avoid shame.
It's like this really viciouscycle.
(25:00):
But yeah, I love that, justthat awareness that a lot of
what is brought up for me, atleast in my parenting, has to do
with myself.
It's really not about whetheror not my child cuts his hair,
even though it's like to me awild mop, right, but why do I
(25:26):
want to control the situation?
Why do I want to fix it?
Or if he's completely happywith it, it's because of my own
shame, it's because of my ownfear of being shamed, and so,
(25:46):
like I think a lot of the workthat we have to do as parents is
to slow down enough to addresssome of our own wounds so that
we're not projecting it onto ourchildren on the same page here.
Cecilie Conrad (26:09):
you're unschooling, we're unschooling
and we've done our de-schoolingand we're somewhere actually
very far away from the adultingand all these things.
And of course, it still has anugly, I don't know.
There's some scar tissue thatwill never go away.
So we make our mistakes, sure,um, but I think it's.
It's always very interesting totalk about the gray zones, or
(26:37):
when is it still somewhatrelevant?
I usually use the word regulateand my children are now so old
that they understand theunschooling concepts and they
can stop me if I get off my owntrack.
But I can also say I'm going toregulate you now because I
(26:58):
think I know better about thissituation and this is my
regulation.
I'm going to tell you to bemore quiet, or I'm going to tell
you to change your clothesbefore we leave now, because
we're going to a businessmeeting and this is officially a
lunch but actually it's abusiness meeting and you cannot
wear that shirt because it's notappropriate.
(27:19):
Whatever, I think sometimes weare the adults, sometimes we do
know better and sometimes wehave to.
Even I could even say should.
I think on my own podcast hereabout freedom, I could say
(27:40):
should.
Sometimes we should regulate,sometimes it's all right, and I
think it's very interesting tofind out what foot do we stand
on when we do that?
Because I think it's about thephilosophy behind it and the
vibe of it more than it's aboutwhether I.
Sometimes I have never, but ifI ever told my children to cut
(28:05):
the hair, I would there would begood reason for it.
I would.
I wouldn't be able to tell them, I would ask them politely, you
know, maybe to comb the hair.
Jesper Conrad (28:10):
I, I would, there would be good reason for it.
Cecilie Conrad (28:11):
I would, I wouldn't be able to tell them.
I would, I would ask thempolitely, you know, maybe to
comb the hair so yeah, I mean, Ithink sorry no, I was just, you
know, interested in yourthoughts and because sometimes
when we talk about unschoolingand how we should, uh, get away
from the adulting and we shouldpay, we should be respectful,
(28:33):
and to me there's a little bitof yada yada yada about that,
because I'm 10 plus years downthe line and I get that in the
beginning.
This is very important, so, butwhere's the?
Because we are still theparents.
I'm not one of the children andit is somewhat my
responsibility.
Something about the situationis my responsibility.
(28:54):
I don't know exactly what, butit's not like I'm the neighbor,
it's not like I'm a friend, it'snot like I'm any random person
in the street.
I'm not one of the childreneither.
There's something to thisparent role that has not a top
down, but more of a burden, moreof a.
Jesper Conrad (29:16):
I think, actually , gordon.
I have the pleasure of workingclose together with Gordon
Neufeld and he often says thatas a parent, you are the answer
and sometimes you need to fakeit if you don't feel you have
the answer, but for the childrenyou are the answer, you're the
one who they look at and whoshould know.
(29:38):
And in that line, sometimeswhen we have had a dialogue with
our kids and I actuallyremember a situation where they
said mom, dad, I actually don'tneed the whole explanation right
now.
Just say yes or no when I feelthe need for explaining why this
(30:00):
decision is like it is or whythis is the good thing, and
they're like just point me inthe direction.
I trust you, it's's good enough.
Just don't give me all thatlong, long explanation right now
.
I'm too tired, but I thinkthere's something about this
that it's difficult to try tountiger, to use your word, and
(30:25):
then still be the one with theanswer and the one your children
should be able to go to fortrust and a pointer in life.
Iris Chen (30:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think it is important for us to
recognize that, like again, weare talking about power and that
we as parents do have power,and that's not a bad thing.
But it's like how we use ourpower, you know, and because,
(30:59):
yeah, like, what does it mean toshare power in a relationship?
I don't think it's like aformula, it's not like in every
situation or you should never dothis or you should always do
that.
I think in every relationshipit's like a dance, it's
(31:20):
communication.
Like sometimes you're going,like, even with a partner,
sometimes you're going to likegrab a coffee for them even
though they didn't ask for it,or, like you know, have them
like bring a jacket for themjust out of thoughtfulness and a
care for them.
So I think it's not always like,oh, we can never sort of say
(31:46):
what we think or or makesuggestions, or guide, or lead
or um, I do think we should,like you know, hopefully avoid
control as much as possible.
But again, it's this dance.
It's like sometimes, sometimesthe child will have a say and
(32:10):
sometimes the parent will have asay, and like the way I talk
about it in my book is like giveand take.
It's a give and takerelationship.
So it's not always give, it'snot always give in for the
parent where it's just like,okay, just do whatever you want,
because that's not what arelationship is.
If we're just like separateislands, then then you can do
(32:33):
whatever you want and I can dowhatever I want and like it.
It doesn't intersect at all.
But because we are inrelationship, there's, um, just
this dance, this tension that wehave to negotiate together
about, like my needs, your needs, our family's needs, you know,
(32:57):
social expectations, all of allof that.
And so, again, like not relyingon these hard and fast rules,
about like, oh, you should nevermake your job, do whatever.
But I think there's like whatare the ways that build
(33:19):
connection and buildrelationship that have less to
do with control and power andmore to do with love and support
?
And like, okay, I'veexperienced this world longer
than you have and I may havesome insight that you don't know
, and I'm going to bring that tothis conversation or to this
(33:40):
decision and trust, andhopefully there's enough trust
as a foundation in thatrelationship where the child
will, you know, maybe defer tous, or trust in our leadership
and guidance in the moment.
Jesper Conrad (33:59):
What have been the biggest part of your healing
journey, to use that word.
When you went down tode-schooling, saw this need for,
for a change in your ways.
Um and so what?
What has moved you the mostwhen you look back at the mom
you were versus the mom you aretoday?
Iris Chen (34:23):
that's a great question.
I, I think I'm just so gratefulfor the relationship that I
have with my children now,because at that point when.
I like hit rock bottom.
It was really bad.
It was like, oh, I do not enjoyparenting.
I do not know if I enjoy mychild right now.
So it was like really, yeah,not a fun place to be as a
(34:49):
parent.
But now my children are 17 and15 now and I'm just like so
grateful we have like a just agreat relationship and, um, yeah
, so I think that healing andthat connection, that repair
(35:09):
that has happened in myrelationship with my children,
is like so such, like I don'tknow, a sign to me that this is
the way At least it was for myfamily, for my family.
(35:33):
And I think another thing islike, yeah, my personal healing
journey with myself because Igrew up tiger parented and I
grew up doing very well, so likesucceeding in all the ways that
I was expected to succeed, butmy relationship with myself was
so fractured and throughunschooling, through this whole
process of untigering, reallyfeeling like I'm being put back
(35:58):
together, where, like the thingsthat I'm trying to do with my
children, I'm also likereparenting myself, like, oh, I
get to have a voice here or Iget to think about what my wants
and desires are where.
I've never had the freedom to dothat.
(36:18):
I get to pursue joy.
I get to rest.
I get to not be perfect.
I get to be compassionate withmyself.
Like all these ways that I'mtrying to parent, reparent my
children, I'm also reparentingmyself and have definitely
experienced the transformationin my own life, apart from just
(36:41):
parenting can't help butthinking I don't know this be
annoying, but I hear it and Iagree the relationship.
Cecilie Conrad (36:54):
It's the most pleasurable part of being an
unschooler one of them that wejust get these amazing
relationships with our children.
And I hear a lot of unschoolingparents say that that's the big
deal, and I agree, say thatthat's the big deal, and I agree
(37:16):
.
And then at the same time, I'mjust trying to take the
perspective of a tiger mom orsomeone ambitious, someone from
outside the community, beinglike yeah, okay, so you like
each other, but what about?
You know?
Will they ever succeed in life?
You know, will they ever obeyanything?
Do they have any discipline?
Can they get a job, all thesethings, and and here we are
(37:41):
talking about relationships andhealing and I just think if I
had that other perspective, Iwould find it a little bit
annoying to listen to Like, yeah, okay, good for you.
I mean you're not making anymoney.
You know, show me what pricesyou won.
You didn't win any prices, soare we doing a little echo
(38:02):
chamber thing here?
How do we respond to everyoneelse?
Iris Chen (38:13):
respond to everyone else.
Yeah, and I think again, it'sjust like so much compassion,
because I know that mentality.
I know that mentality, Iunderstand it and I also see it
as something that I had to healfrom.
So just recognizing, like ifour sense of identity and worth
is really tied to our paycheck,tied to the title that we have,
is very unstable and it's not asecure identity to build on.
(38:40):
And I know a lot of people whohave all the success in the
world and yet are deeply unhappy, have broken relationships,
struggle, you know, with theirmental health, all of these
things.
So just those externalmeasurements of success do not
guarantee a meaningful life.
(39:02):
And I know a lot of successfulpeople and I think, if it's
working for them, I'm not hereto tell them to throw that all
away If they have, however,found a way to find meaning in
(39:24):
that and they're actually doingmeaningful work and in
meaningful relationships and allof that.
So I guess the way I approachthis, you know, especially
talking to people maybe with atiger parenting mindset is not
to convince them thatunschooling is the answer cost
(40:00):
of what it took to get to wherethey are, so that maybe they can
begin doing some of thathealing work is like, okay, what
did it cost me to be successful, to do well in school?
To?
Because, yeah, like I, I neverrecognized the cost, I always
(40:23):
recognized the rewards of it,where I was like, oh, I was
given all these accolades andthe pats on the back and I was
like a lot of affirmation fordoing well in school, but what
did it cost me?
So those are the questions thatI'm trying to ask, like where
we lost our own voice, we lostour own sense of self, and at
(40:47):
least you know I can speak formyself.
But just inviting people toreflect on some of those things
so that now in this, whateversituation they are in now moving
forward, how can they live withmore alignment, with more
attunement to themselves?
What can they let go of?
(41:08):
What really serves them now inthis life?
So that's, yeah, sort of how Iapproach it.
Cecilie Conrad (41:19):
Well, I personally agree.
I was just, you know.
I know that I hear the voicesof the outside world talking to
me, or talking to us, ourcommunity.
Iris Chen (41:34):
Yeah, and it's funny because, yeah, it's like a very
practical you know how are yougoing to pay the bills.
It's like a very practical youknow how are you going to pay
the bills.
And those are like valid, validquestions and so I don't want
to sort of dismiss them.
Even thinking back to like ageneration ago, with the first
(42:03):
generation of immigrants thatmay have come and the choices
that were available to them, youknow, like if they had
unschooled, what would it havelooked like?
Would it have worked?
You know, I don't know.
So I think, I think the thecontext matters in terms of what
we're talking about and howlike are we moving towards more
(42:26):
liberation?
Because I think, for myparents' generation, education
was something they did opt into,they chose for themselves, it
was something that they wanted,whereas now, in this generation,
whereas now in this generation,maybe it's like it's assumed
and it's compulsory, and wechildren don't feel like they
(42:49):
have an option, and so, again,it's like are we moving towards
the direction of greaterwholeness, of greater meaning?
Cecilie Conrad (43:06):
And that can look different in different
contexts.
I think it's one of the mostimportant things that happens
when we unschool and unschoolingchildren is it's a long process
.
It's many, many years and overthose many, many years we have a
lot of conversations aboutthese things, about values,
(43:27):
about what's my take on success.
What does it mean to be happy?
What role should education,formalized education, take in my
life, if any, and at what point?
Why would I want it?
(43:48):
Will I pay?
Pay the bills?
What bills do I want to pay?
What kind of life do I want?
These conversations we're, we'replaying with life as if it was
some sort of board game,traveling around, trying out
different cultures, differentways, places to live, cities,
countrysides, mountains, rivers,beach.
Can we learn the language?
(44:10):
We just try all kinds of things.
So we do it practically, butyou can also do it from just
living in one place, but playingwith.
You know there's thismainstream idea about what
success is, how it looks, whatyou're aiming for.
But is that the only take?
How can it?
How could it unfold?
Could it be different for you?
(44:31):
These conversations, I see themhappening all the time in
unschooling families and I thinkthe children, they grow up, but
at some point they know so muchmore about what they want, why
they want it and how to get it,and at that point they can, like
(44:52):
the generations before maybedid choose education, if that
should be, you know, if that'sone piece of the puzzle for them
, one piece of the puzzle forthem, whereas the mindless
compulsory education of childrenunder the age of 15 is a
completely different story.
So I think that's one of thegreat benefits to have.
Iris Chen (45:15):
I totally agree.
Yeah, that's definitely been myexperience, with unschooling in
particular, because school issuch a big part of life.
I'm not sure what it was likein your country growing up, but
(45:35):
in America there's like so muchthat is centered around
schooling, that is centeredaround schooling in a child's
life and in a parent of youngchild's life, that once you take
that out of the picture or onceyou question whether that's an
inevitability, then you are ableto question a lot of other
(46:05):
things.
It's like oh, does it have tobe like that?
Do I have to have a nine tofive job?
Do I have to own a house?
Do I have to get married andhave children?
It's like all of these thingswhere it's no longer sort of
like what you were talking about.
This mindfulness is no longer amindless, unconscious way of
living, living where, uh, yeah,you're just doing what the
(46:27):
person next to you is doing, butit's like, oh, what do I really
want out of life?
What's what is meaningful, whatserves me?
How can I serve my community?
All of those things are it?
I just like blows the boxes,the walls off the boxes and I
(46:48):
love the word that you used interms of being playful with it,
like, how can we play with therules a little bit instead of
assuming that I have to obey therules?
Jesper Conrad (46:59):
but it's also a big responsibility to put on the
people and our children.
I remember I had like thenormal kind of life.
I went to public school and toa gymnasium, high school thingy,
and then when it was finishedit was like, oh, here's this
thing called life.
Now I need to figure out whatto do and.
(47:20):
And then we even remove theschool from our children and say
, hey, let's play with it, let'sfigure it out.
Uh, I understand if it's a, ifit's a big challenge for them,
where sometimes, in my darkesthours, I sometimes dream back to
a nine to five, a house and noneed to figure it all out, no
(47:41):
need to to think it through,just.
But that's only in the darkesthours.
The other hours I'm like, rightnow I'm looking out of the
window.
I can see, like the familiar inbarcelona where we live for a
month.
What a gift, what a, what ablessing of a life to have
created.
Iris Chen (47:59):
Yeah, and sorry I just want to go back like
there's nothing wrong in my mindwith a nine-to-five job or
staying in one place.
I think again, it's just likethis freedom to to like be very
intentional and mindful aboutwhat you choose, because that's
the type of life that you want,and so it may look very like not
(48:27):
counter-cultural, but if we doit with intention and we do it
in a way that makes sense for usand our family, I think that
that's fine.
You know, like I don't think allunschoolers like for me I I am
not sort of an edgy person and Imean a lot of unschoolers is
(48:50):
the assumption maybe thatthey're, like you know, sort of
on the margins and more likegranola and stuff like that.
I don't know these assumptionsabout unschoolers and I think I
love that there's the freedom tobe however we want to be and
however we want to show up.
But I think that is the beautyof unschooling is that we can
(49:14):
sort of shape and curate thelife that works for us and our
families and our personalitiesand all of that
if we wind it back to thenewborn and the wish to do
really well we want to take careof them and we want to make
(49:36):
sure we do this job well so thatthey are we can even go down
that discourse and say they'reset up for success then I think
the big advantage of unschoolingis that when they are 15 or 20,
whatever some age where theymake important decisions about
(49:58):
the next stage of life they knowwhat success is.
They know what their personalidea of success is.
They're not mindlesslyfollowing some external idea of
success, because it can look inmany different ways.
Being happy and healthy, whichis maybe a mainstream box to put
(50:21):
the idea of success into, ifyou have a happy and healthy
life, that's a success, I'd say,but that doesn't look the same
for everyone.
And growing up unschooled you'vehad these conversations and
you've had this space to evolveyour own personality and to
really find solid ground underyour feet.
(50:42):
So when you're at that age thatmy husband was just talking
about, when you feel like, oh,now I have to figure it out,
it's not that hard.
You know what it is.
You know how it feels.
You probably also know how itfeels not to be in a good place
and you've been in a safe spacefor many, many years to work out
how to handle that as well.
(51:02):
So that's another take, that'san alternative take on being set
up for success To know exactlywhat it looks like, to know
exactly what it looks like toyou personally, and to know
exactly how it feels when it'snot success, how to handle that
as well.
That's being set up.
Yeah, I'd say.
Jesper Conrad (51:23):
Iris how to handle that as well.
That's being set up.
Yeah, I'd say.
Iris, what would the first stepof untigering be?
If there's a tiger mom outthere who have heard about you,
or listening to the podcast,what is your like?
Hey, this is the first step.
This is what you should do.
Iris Chen (51:39):
Oh, wow, I don't know .
I think I like to get to theroot of the problem.
Sometimes it's not the easieststep, but I think it's pretty
foundational and I think, again,it has to do with our
relationship with ourselves.
Like a tiger parent is somebodywho probably has really high
expectations for themselves, whois perhaps a perfectionist,
(52:06):
perhaps, uh, afraid of failure,um, maybe has a lot of anxiety.
So, like, I think it.
To me it would go back to thereparenting of our relationship
with ourselves.
Like, just how is one way thatyou can show more compassion
(52:31):
towards yourself today?
So, instead of like, oh my gosh, I'm so horrible because I I
did, did you know, failed insome ways, like, oh, like just a
lot of compassion.
I had a really rough morning, Ididn't get enough sleep, and
again, it's not like a way toexcuse our behavior, but just to
(52:55):
, um, have a lot of empathy,grow, grow our empathy for
ourselves.
Jesper Conrad (53:04):
I love it, yeah, yeah.
And for people who want to knowmore about you and your work,
how do they find you If you canname drop your book and your
websites, et cetera?
Iris Chen (53:16):
Yes, so my website is untigeringcom.
My book is UntigeringPeacefulering peaceful parenting
for the deconstructing tigerparent, and you can find that um
anywhere that or most placesthat books are sold, I'm not
sure about internationally, butum also online bookstores, and
(53:38):
I'm also on social media atuntagering.
Jesper Conrad (53:46):
But yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (53:46):
Fantastic.
Untagering is the word.
Jesper Conrad (53:49):
It should be easy for people.
It was a pleasure having youtoday.
Thanks a lot for your time.
Iris Chen (53:54):
Yeah, I had a great conversation with you.
Thank you so much.
So today we're together with Iris Chen and
first of all, welcome.
It's good to see you and meetyou, and I look forward to our
chat today.
Iris Chen (00:09):
Yeah, it's so nice to meet both of you.
Jesper Conrad (00:12):
So, iris, I saw you on this Unschooling Summit
website and read the descriptionand was like, ooh, we would
love to interview Iris for ourpodcast, and what caught my eye
was the term untigering andunschooling and how all that
knits together.
(00:34):
So I don't know exactly wherewe should start, but maybe
before we can talk aboutuntigering, we should maybe talk
about what a tiger mom or thephrase is, if you can explain
that first for people who areunfamiliar with the term.
Iris Chen (00:50):
Yeah, so Amy Chua, who is like a Yale law professor
, wrote a book called the BattleHymn of the Tiger Mother.
I think this was in 2011.
And it became a very popularbook.
People had really strongreactions to it because she was
pretty much saying that thequote unquote Chinese way of
(01:13):
parenting will help you raiselike high achieving children,
high achieving, successfulchildren.
And so she in her book it'ssort of like a tongue in cheek
memoir talking about herparenting style, and that's
where the term tiger parentingsort of arose from.
(01:33):
It's this idea of a verydemanding, high expectation type
of parenting with, like thegoal to raise your children to
be successful, also highachieving, oftentimes
emotionally distant and yeah,all of those things.
(01:55):
And so I think she is Chinese,american and being raised also
as a Chinese American, secondgeneration immigrant.
This type of parenting is likevery familiar to many of us
because it's just theexpectation of being like doing
(02:16):
well in school, obedience, notquestioning that.
And so when I had my ownchildren, it was going to be
like there was a lot about mychildhood that I was like I'm
(02:37):
not going to do that.
We're going to give hugs, we'regoing to say I love you, you,
things like that but then reallystill having these unquestioned
expectations of how my childrenwere to behave, how they were
to perform, yeah, just what myexpectations were in terms of,
(02:57):
like, doing well in school,being smart, getting good grades
, all of that.
And so I continued on that pathuntil, yeah, like, it's
probably definitely a process,but I got to the point where I
saw that that path was leadingme to very dark places, both in
(03:19):
my relationship with my childand just seeing what was
happening to him, because I hadall this pressure and
expectations on him and itwasn't necessarily to do so much
with academics at that point hewas fairly young, but it was
just my desire to control and,just like, instill absolute
(03:47):
obedience in him.
Like, I had very highexpectations for myself, had
very high expectations for himand so parented in a way that
was very controlling, verypunitive, and our relationship
really began to devolve andfinally sort of came to a
(04:08):
breaking point where I realizedI went to a parenting workshop.
I thought I was doing all theright things.
And then I went to thisparenting workshop and they were
talking about neuroscience andbrain biology and what happens
to our kids when we punish themand yell at them and send them
to a corner or take away theirtoys, and just how their body
(04:33):
goes into that fight, flight,freeze cycle, because they feel
like they're under threat andthey can't calm down.
They are just reacting out ofthat fear, and so for me, that
was the first time I recognizedthat the way I was parenting,
what I was doing, was actuallycausing some of the behaviors
(04:55):
that I didn't want to see, and Irealized like I needed to
change if I expected him tochange, to change if I expected
him to change.
Jesper Conrad (05:09):
And one of the things you touch upon is that we
are a result of how we wereparented.
I, when I look at my childhood,I'm raised in Denmark.
That's a way different way ofbeing a parent and also was then
.
But I believe all of us whohave grown into becoming parents
can, at some point when we haveyoung children, be like oh, it
(05:34):
was like hearing my dad shoutingthe same words at me and now it
came out of my mouth and it isreally, really hard to break the
cycles, even though we know andfeel what is wrong and right.
Then I remember standing andbeing like oh, that's some of
the things I have hoped I wouldnever say.
Iris Chen (05:56):
Yeah, so I felt like I was becoming somebody who I
didn't want to be, you know,even though I had said I'm not
going to do those things, but Iabsolutely ended up doing them.
So it's not just like anintellectual idea.
(06:17):
I think we have to.
There's some like healing workthat has to be done, where we
need to address some of the ways.
Maybe we were raised somechildhood wounds in order to
like confront what's coming out?
Jesper Conrad (06:33):
yeah, but, iris, do you think that the stereotype
I have had painted of thechinese parenting is this more
strict and, as you say, obedientway of maybe being a parent and
more obedient children?
But I'm like, how much of astereotype is it?
How true is it?
(06:54):
Because I mean, it's very roughto say all Chinese parents are
like this, but I don't know ifthere's something about it, what
is your take on it?
I mean.
Iris Chen (07:03):
Mean, I think part of it is the immigrant community,
maybe all as well, where youmight have, um, immigrants who
come to a country that is nottheir own and believe that
following the rules, doing wellat school, is their path to
success, and so there's maybe alot of emphasis on that.
(07:26):
So I actually lived in China formany years and obviously
there's, like you know, billionsof people in China and you
can't say that all parenting isthe same.
But I think there are culturalelements where, culturally,
education is very highly valued.
In Chinese culture.
(07:46):
This goes back to ancient timeswhere they had the imperial
exams, and so even those whowere of like a lower class could
test and become a bureaucratthrough these imperial exams.
And so, yeah, I think academics, that intellectual aspect, is
(08:11):
highly valued in the culture,and also it's a very
hierarchical culture in someways there's the filial piety,
there's expectations of howrelationships you know just the
order of relationships where theelders are shown respect and
stuff like that, and so thereare aspects that are culturally
(08:34):
resonant, I think, but of coursethere's always exceptions, yeah
, I remember when it came outTiger Mountain Book, it was a
big deal.
Cecilie Conrad (08:45):
There was a lot of talk about it back in
Scandinavia.
Iris Chen (08:49):
Oh.
Cecilie Conrad (08:50):
How that was.
Iris Chen (08:52):
Yeah, it's interesting because it's also a
stereotype, I guess, ofScandinavian parenting and it's
sort of like in contrast totiger parenting, wouldn't you
say?
Cecilie Conrad (09:06):
yeah, yeah, but I mean we lived it at the time
and just remember when it cameout, how different the style was
to the.
Even the mainstream ideals Imean we're radical from our
culture but even the mainstreamideas about what a childhood
should look like and howrelationships between family
(09:29):
members should be, and and howchildren should feel about
themselves and how much respectthere should be around their
needs, and yeah, and so I thinkwhen, when you were asking me
before, like, why do peopletiger parent?
Iris Chen (09:43):
I think when you were asking me before, like, why do
people tiger parent?
I think that's what you wereasking.
I think a lot of it has to dowith trauma, like historical
trauma and cultural that'sbecome embedded in the culture.
So, even though it's labeledlike, oh, that's just part of my
(10:05):
culture, that's just theChinese way, or whatever, I
think we also need to recognizehow a lot of that is based in
trauma of like poverty,starvation, the need to
assimilate if you're animmigrant, you're an immigrant
(10:28):
Like there's a lot of layers.
That when we recognize thatit's rooted in trauma, we can
begin to heal and let go of someof those, instead of just
taking on that label.
It's like, oh well, that's justpart of my culture, or I'm
Chinese, or I'm Asian or I'mwhatever background, and so
that's just the way my people doit.
I don't think it's aninevitability.
I think that's something thatwe need to examine and recognize
(10:50):
like oh, what is the root causeof some of these ways of
thinking, these attitudestowards children and towards our
life in?
Jesper Conrad (10:59):
general.
You mentioned being from animmigrant background and I'm
just thinking the fear ofstepping out of line.
If you are in a new country andpeople are looking at you and
you also look different, it'slike there can be this need for
control where you want to be asuccess and not step out of line
so people can't say something.
(11:20):
I can see how that can bring itforward.
But then from tigering tountigering and then to
unschooling, how can I askdirectly how has your parents
taken that?
Because that is I mean for me,when I in the start, we didn't
tell my mom that we wereunschooling it was homeschooling
(11:42):
was already weird.
It took some years until sheunderstood what we did and and
now she's fine with it.
But in the start I mean andthat's even in the Danish
culture it was a little weirdfor her like that.
What is it?
And then, with your culturalbackground, how did they take it
?
Iris Chen (12:02):
so we were actually living in China at that time
when we first startedunschooling.
So we were like miles away frommy family, which in some ways
created some distance.
So they were they were notalways like, they didn't have a
microscope on us, they couldn'tsee what we were doing at all
the times, and so we justtreated it sort of like an
(12:26):
experiment, because we wereforeigners, like even though
we're ethnically Chinese, myhusband and I, we we didn't have
the same rights as the localfamilies, so we couldn't get our
children into the local publicschools, so the the access to
(12:46):
institutions and schooling andeverything was different.
We had to sort of like piece ittogether or like make up our
own way.
So a lot of foreigners in ourcommunity were homeschooling and
that was just a normal thing,like many people who live
overseas, if they don't have thesame educational system, will
(13:08):
either go to like aninternational school, private
school or homeschool, and so wewere already sort of like
homeschooling at that point,also sending them to like a
local kindergarten, montessori,kindergarten and different
things like that kindergarten,montessori, kindergarten and
different things like that.
(13:32):
So I think sort of like thatidea of being an immigrant again
or a foreigner in a differentplace also gave us a lot of
flexibility to try new things.
Like if we were part of thatculture, it would have been very
, very countercultural to dohomeschooling or unschooling or
anything like that.
That would, it's like prettymuch illegal there.
And but because we wereforeigners, we had more freedom
(13:54):
and so I think sort of beingweird, already being outside the
culture gave us more freedom toexplore and try new things
because in some ways, like ouroptions were limited, we had to
be creative about what, um, theoptions could be for our
(14:15):
children.
Um, but at the same time, likemy in-laws still probably don't
exactly know that we'reunschooling.
They know that we'rehomeschooling, but probably I
don't even know if their mindswould wrap around unschooling.
(14:38):
So we are back in the Statesnow but they're very hands off
and so it's like, as long as youseem to be doing well, you know
we're gonna let you do yourthing.
Jesper Conrad (14:49):
So I wouldn't say that they are necessarily
supportive, but they are atleast letting us do our thing
who when you help with theuntigering, as you call it, if
we can define what, how youuntiger and who you help with it
, what, what challenges do theyhave?
The people who who need theuntigering?
Iris Chen (15:13):
yeah.
So I mean because of my ownjourney, and once I started
unschooling, I was realizing,like, for people with my
background, this feels like verynew.
This feels like I don't knowanybody else like me doing this,
like none of my friends whogrew up, uh, in my community, my
(15:34):
Asian American friends.
This is like no, it's, it's awild choice, and so I just began
blogging about it and sharingthe challenges and the thoughts
that I was going through, and Ithink now it's like my vision,
like other than the consciousparenting aspect of it, which I
(15:57):
think is really key tounschooling in terms of undoing
some of those power dynamicsthat we have in our relationship
with other children, where wefeel like we need to direct and
control and, and and yeah, likesort of conduct everything about
(16:17):
their lives.
Um, the unschooling part isreally like wanting to just
begin to spark some imaginationwithin communities like mine and
address the cultural concerns,because there are cultural
(16:37):
concerns.
We're like a more collectivesociety or like culture, and so
our relationships with ourfamily is really important.
It is important what otherpeople think of us and our ideas
of success.
So all of those things arethings that I also try to
address from my cultural, mysocial location, as an Asian
(17:01):
American woman who has lived inChina and in the States and is
wrestling with these differentcultural norms and how to see
them and address them through alens of liberation, through a
lens of healing and just doingthe work that we need to do,
(17:26):
instead of these unquestionedtypes of ways of behaving, just
like oh well, that's just theway that has always been done,
whether it's American culture orChinese culture.
Really, I think, having livedoverseas, like being in these
liminal spaces of like beingAsian American and also being an
(17:48):
Asian American living in China,just understanding that we can
create our own culture.
We don't just have to swallowit whole.
We can examine it, see whatresonates and build a life that
is meaningful to us.
Cecilie Conrad (18:10):
I think we have a lot of different cultures
going on in this conversation.
It's quite interesting and Iactually quite struggle with
aligning all the.
With aligning all the, I meanwe have Chinese culture if
that's even a word, becauseChina is so big and we have
(18:34):
Chinese-American, and then wehave unschooling
Chinese-American, and then wehave Scandinavian, but then we
have nomadic Scandinavian, butthen we have unschooling nomadic
Scandinavian, but then we havenomadic Scandinavian, but then
we have unschooling nomadicScandinavian.
The matrix is too complicatedfor me, but what I see is I
think there are lots ofsimilarities, even though I
(18:56):
recognize the differences arehuge between my cultural
background from the far north ofEurope and yours.
Then I think some of thedynamics are the same in a way.
(19:18):
So the whole control aspect youtalked about in the beginning, I
think it's a very importantthing.
The mechanism is the same.
We get a child and we getoverwhelmed with love and with
awe and with just wanting to dothis really well.
We really want to be goodparents, not so much to impress
(19:44):
our parents we just talk aboutparents but because of the love,
basically because it's veryimportant.
Suddenly it's very, veryimportant to take care of this
little being and we want to dogood.
We want to do our very best totake care of this little being,
and then the confusion comes.
(20:04):
Then it becomes muddy.
From there on it becomes muddy,and it does become muddy in a
cultural way, but there'ssomething about it that's the
same, this control thing.
So the the tiger mom control andthe tiger mom idea of success
might look very different fromthe scandinavian control and the
(20:26):
scandinavian idea of success,but there's a mechanism.
That's the same.
I want to do good.
How can I ensure I do good?
I can ensure it by controllingthe situation.
I'm the adult.
I need to outsmart this.
I need to get on top of this.
I'll make a plan.
Jesper Conrad (20:42):
Or even I buy into a plan someone else have
made and say this is the rightway of parenting.
Cecilie Conrad (20:48):
Because I couldn't do the whole matrix of
all the cultures in play.
I was looking for similaritiesand I think that dynamic might
be the same yeah for sure.
Iris Chen (21:03):
I think power like on my journey of untangering power
is something I'm constantlyexamining because it's
definitely in play in aparent-child relationship, and I
guess during my tiger parentingdays I was like, well, that's
the way it's supposed to be,that makes complete sense,
(21:25):
because a child is cannot makegood decisions and so a parent
has to step in and make thosedecisions for them.
And I think, just on thisjourney that I've been on,
really recognizing the adultism,the dehumanizing way that we
(21:48):
see children that allows us tojustify using control over them
is because we don't actually seethem as human beings who are
worthy of dignity and respect,and so we feel like, out of
quote-unquote love, we can useour power over them.
(22:09):
And so something that I writeabout in my book is something
that I'm always like thinkingabout is like how can we be in
power with relationships withchildren, rather than power over
, and it doesn't matter I'mgonna say this and I'll see if I
(22:41):
agree with it it doesn't matterwhat our intentions are in such
a way that dehumanizes them,that disrespects them, that
doesn't honor their agency andtheir own sense of self?
Jesper Conrad (23:04):
then it's like a very paternalistic way of
looking at children and lookingat our role as parents, although
sometimes it's so much easierto just say I'm right, you're
wrong, and do it this way whenyou have the anxiety or fear
when you're adulting, if that'sa word.
Sometimes I don't do it a lotnow, but when I look back of the
(23:29):
way I've been a dad, I can seethat, based on fear, head is the
shaming, sometimes Trying tokind of shame them to do
(23:53):
something, and I hate when ithappens, but it do happen and I
believe that being aware of itis a giant step in parenting,
that you sometimes aren't thebest versions of yourself.
Sometimes we mess up and it'sactually really difficult to be
a parent.
I think I try to do my best.
Iris Chen (24:17):
I think so much of parenting is like holding a
mirror, like our child holds amirror up to us, up to us and
maybe parts of ourselves thatwere unseen or were shut down.
You know, like if we were shamedfor a particular type of
(24:39):
behavior, then there is thatreaction that trigger that fear
that our child is going toexperience that shame too for
doing whatever they're doing,and so we want to correct it so
that they don't feel shame.
But we're using shame to helpthem avoid shame.
It's like this really viciouscycle.
(25:00):
But yeah, I love that, justthat awareness that a lot of
what is brought up for me, atleast in my parenting, has to do
with myself.
It's really not about whetheror not my child cuts his hair,
even though it's like to me awild mop, right, but why do I
(25:26):
want to control the situation?
Why do I want to fix it?
Or if he's completely happywith it, it's because of my own
shame, it's because of my ownfear of being shamed, and so,
(25:46):
like I think a lot of the workthat we have to do as parents is
to slow down enough to addresssome of our own wounds so that
we're not projecting it onto ourchildren on the same page here.
Cecilie Conrad (26:09):
you're unschooling, we're unschooling
and we've done our de-schoolingand we're somewhere actually
very far away from the adultingand all these things.
And of course, it still has anugly, I don't know.
There's some scar tissue thatwill never go away.
So we make our mistakes, sure,um, but I think it's.
It's always very interesting totalk about the gray zones, or
(26:37):
when is it still somewhatrelevant?
I usually use the word regulateand my children are now so old
that they understand theunschooling concepts and they
can stop me if I get off my owntrack.
But I can also say I'm going toregulate you now because I
(26:58):
think I know better about thissituation and this is my
regulation.
I'm going to tell you to bemore quiet, or I'm going to tell
you to change your clothesbefore we leave now, because
we're going to a businessmeeting and this is officially a
lunch but actually it's abusiness meeting and you cannot
wear that shirt because it's notappropriate.
(27:19):
Whatever, I think sometimes weare the adults, sometimes we do
know better and sometimes wehave to.
Even I could even say should.
I think on my own podcast hereabout freedom, I could say
(27:40):
should.
Sometimes we should regulate,sometimes it's all right, and I
think it's very interesting tofind out what foot do we stand
on when we do that?
Because I think it's about thephilosophy behind it and the
vibe of it more than it's aboutwhether I.
Sometimes I have never, but ifI ever told my children to cut
(28:05):
the hair, I would there would begood reason for it.
I would.
I wouldn't be able to tell them, I would ask them politely, you
know, maybe to comb the hair.
Jesper Conrad (28:10):
I, I would, there would be good reason for it.
Cecilie Conrad (28:11):
I would, I wouldn't be able to tell them.
I would, I would ask thempolitely, you know, maybe to
comb the hair so yeah, I mean, Ithink sorry no, I was just, you
know, interested in yourthoughts and because sometimes
when we talk about unschoolingand how we should, uh, get away
from the adulting and we shouldpay, we should be respectful,
(28:33):
and to me there's a little bitof yada yada yada about that,
because I'm 10 plus years downthe line and I get that in the
beginning.
This is very important, so, butwhere's the?
Because we are still theparents.
I'm not one of the children andit is somewhat my
responsibility.
Something about the situationis my responsibility.
(28:54):
I don't know exactly what, butit's not like I'm the neighbor,
it's not like I'm a friend, it'snot like I'm any random person
in the street.
I'm not one of the childreneither.
There's something to thisparent role that has not a top
down, but more of a burden, moreof a.
Jesper Conrad (29:16):
I think, actually , gordon.
I have the pleasure of workingclose together with Gordon
Neufeld and he often says thatas a parent, you are the answer
and sometimes you need to fakeit if you don't feel you have
the answer, but for the childrenyou are the answer, you're the
one who they look at and whoshould know.
(29:38):
And in that line, sometimeswhen we have had a dialogue with
our kids and I actuallyremember a situation where they
said mom, dad, I actually don'tneed the whole explanation right
now.
Just say yes or no when I feelthe need for explaining why this
(30:00):
decision is like it is or whythis is the good thing, and
they're like just point me inthe direction.
I trust you, it's's good enough.
Just don't give me all thatlong, long explanation right now
.
I'm too tired, but I thinkthere's something about this
that it's difficult to try tountiger, to use your word, and
(30:25):
then still be the one with theanswer and the one your children
should be able to go to fortrust and a pointer in life.
Iris Chen (30:38):
Yeah, I mean, I think it is important for us to
recognize that, like again, weare talking about power and that
we as parents do have power,and that's not a bad thing.
But it's like how we use ourpower, you know, and because,
(30:59):
yeah, like, what does it mean toshare power in a relationship?
I don't think it's like aformula, it's not like in every
situation or you should never dothis or you should always do
that.
I think in every relationshipit's like a dance, it's
(31:20):
communication.
Like sometimes you're going,like, even with a partner,
sometimes you're going to likegrab a coffee for them even
though they didn't ask for it,or, like you know, have them
like bring a jacket for themjust out of thoughtfulness and a
care for them.
So I think it's not always like,oh, we can never sort of say
(31:46):
what we think or or makesuggestions, or guide, or lead
or um, I do think we should,like you know, hopefully avoid
control as much as possible.
But again, it's this dance.
It's like sometimes, sometimesthe child will have a say and
(32:10):
sometimes the parent will have asay, and like the way I talk
about it in my book is like giveand take.
It's a give and takerelationship.
So it's not always give, it'snot always give in for the
parent where it's just like,okay, just do whatever you want,
because that's not what arelationship is.
If we're just like separateislands, then then you can do
(32:33):
whatever you want and I can dowhatever I want and like it.
It doesn't intersect at all.
But because we are inrelationship, there's, um, just
this dance, this tension that wehave to negotiate together
about, like my needs, your needs, our family's needs, you know,
(32:57):
social expectations, all of allof that.
And so, again, like not relyingon these hard and fast rules,
about like, oh, you should nevermake your job, do whatever.
But I think there's like whatare the ways that build
(33:19):
connection and buildrelationship that have less to
do with control and power andmore to do with love and support
?
And like, okay, I'veexperienced this world longer
than you have and I may havesome insight that you don't know
, and I'm going to bring that tothis conversation or to this
(33:40):
decision and trust, andhopefully there's enough trust
as a foundation in thatrelationship where the child
will, you know, maybe defer tous, or trust in our leadership
and guidance in the moment.
Jesper Conrad (33:59):
What have been the biggest part of your healing
journey, to use that word.
When you went down tode-schooling, saw this need for,
for a change in your ways.
Um and so what?
What has moved you the mostwhen you look back at the mom
you were versus the mom you aretoday?
Iris Chen (34:23):
that's a great question.
I, I think I'm just so gratefulfor the relationship that I
have with my children now,because at that point when.
I like hit rock bottom.
It was really bad.
It was like, oh, I do not enjoyparenting.
I do not know if I enjoy mychild right now.
So it was like really, yeah,not a fun place to be as a
(34:49):
parent.
But now my children are 17 and15 now and I'm just like so
grateful we have like a just agreat relationship and, um, yeah
, so I think that healing andthat connection, that repair
(35:09):
that has happened in myrelationship with my children,
is like so such, like I don'tknow, a sign to me that this is
the way At least it was for myfamily, for my family.
(35:33):
And I think another thing islike, yeah, my personal healing
journey with myself because Igrew up tiger parented and I
grew up doing very well, so likesucceeding in all the ways that
I was expected to succeed, butmy relationship with myself was
so fractured and throughunschooling, through this whole
process of untigering, reallyfeeling like I'm being put back
(35:58):
together, where, like the thingsthat I'm trying to do with my
children, I'm also likereparenting myself, like, oh, I
get to have a voice here or Iget to think about what my wants
and desires are where.
I've never had the freedom to dothat.
(36:18):
I get to pursue joy.
I get to rest.
I get to not be perfect.
I get to be compassionate withmyself.
Like all these ways that I'mtrying to parent, reparent my
children, I'm also reparentingmyself and have definitely
experienced the transformationin my own life, apart from just
(36:41):
parenting can't help butthinking I don't know this be
annoying, but I hear it and Iagree the relationship.
Cecilie Conrad (36:54):
It's the most pleasurable part of being an
unschooler one of them that wejust get these amazing
relationships with our children.
And I hear a lot of unschoolingparents say that that's the big
deal, and I agree, say thatthat's the big deal, and I agree
(37:16):
.
And then at the same time, I'mjust trying to take the
perspective of a tiger mom orsomeone ambitious, someone from
outside the community, beinglike yeah, okay, so you like
each other, but what about?
You know?
Will they ever succeed in life?
You know, will they ever obeyanything?
Do they have any discipline?
Can they get a job, all thesethings, and and here we are
(37:41):
talking about relationships andhealing and I just think if I
had that other perspective, Iwould find it a little bit
annoying to listen to Like, yeah, okay, good for you.
I mean you're not making anymoney.
You know, show me what pricesyou won.
You didn't win any prices, soare we doing a little echo
(38:02):
chamber thing here?
How do we respond to everyoneelse?
Iris Chen (38:13):
respond to everyone else.
Yeah, and I think again, it'sjust like so much compassion,
because I know that mentality.
I know that mentality, Iunderstand it and I also see it
as something that I had to healfrom.
So just recognizing, like ifour sense of identity and worth
is really tied to our paycheck,tied to the title that we have,
is very unstable and it's not asecure identity to build on.
(38:40):
And I know a lot of people whohave all the success in the
world and yet are deeply unhappy, have broken relationships,
struggle, you know, with theirmental health, all of these
things.
So just those externalmeasurements of success do not
guarantee a meaningful life.
(39:02):
And I know a lot of successfulpeople and I think, if it's
working for them, I'm not hereto tell them to throw that all
away If they have, however,found a way to find meaning in
(39:24):
that and they're actually doingmeaningful work and in
meaningful relationships and allof that.
So I guess the way I approachthis, you know, especially
talking to people maybe with atiger parenting mindset is not
to convince them thatunschooling is the answer cost
(40:00):
of what it took to get to wherethey are, so that maybe they can
begin doing some of thathealing work is like, okay, what
did it cost me to be successful, to do well in school?
To?
Because, yeah, like I, I neverrecognized the cost, I always
(40:23):
recognized the rewards of it,where I was like, oh, I was
given all these accolades andthe pats on the back and I was
like a lot of affirmation fordoing well in school, but what
did it cost me?
So those are the questions thatI'm trying to ask, like where
we lost our own voice, we lostour own sense of self, and at
(40:47):
least you know I can speak formyself.
But just inviting people toreflect on some of those things
so that now in this, whateversituation they are in now moving
forward, how can they live withmore alignment, with more
attunement to themselves?
What can they let go of?
(41:08):
What really serves them now inthis life?
So that's, yeah, sort of how Iapproach it.
Cecilie Conrad (41:19):
Well, I personally agree.
I was just, you know.
I know that I hear the voicesof the outside world talking to
me, or talking to us, ourcommunity.
Iris Chen (41:34):
Yeah, and it's funny because, yeah, it's like a very
practical you know how are yougoing to pay the bills.
It's like a very practical youknow how are you going to pay
the bills.
And those are like valid, validquestions and so I don't want
to sort of dismiss them.
Even thinking back to like ageneration ago, with the first
(42:03):
generation of immigrants thatmay have come and the choices
that were available to them, youknow, like if they had
unschooled, what would it havelooked like?
Would it have worked?
You know, I don't know.
So I think, I think the thecontext matters in terms of what
we're talking about and howlike are we moving towards more
(42:26):
liberation?
Because I think, for myparents' generation, education
was something they did opt into,they chose for themselves, it
was something that they wanted,whereas now, in this generation,
whereas now in this generation,maybe it's like it's assumed
and it's compulsory, and wechildren don't feel like they
(42:49):
have an option, and so, again,it's like are we moving towards
the direction of greaterwholeness, of greater meaning?
Cecilie Conrad (43:06):
And that can look different in different
contexts.
I think it's one of the mostimportant things that happens
when we unschool and unschoolingchildren is it's a long process
.
It's many, many years and overthose many, many years we have a
lot of conversations aboutthese things, about values,
(43:27):
about what's my take on success.
What does it mean to be happy?
What role should education,formalized education, take in my
life, if any, and at what point?
Why would I want it?
(43:48):
Will I pay?
Pay the bills?
What bills do I want to pay?
What kind of life do I want?
These conversations we're, we'replaying with life as if it was
some sort of board game,traveling around, trying out
different cultures, differentways, places to live, cities,
countrysides, mountains, rivers,beach.
Can we learn the language?
(44:10):
We just try all kinds of things.
So we do it practically, butyou can also do it from just
living in one place, but playingwith.
You know there's thismainstream idea about what
success is, how it looks, whatyou're aiming for.
But is that the only take?
How can it?
How could it unfold?
Could it be different for you?
(44:31):
These conversations, I see themhappening all the time in
unschooling families and I thinkthe children, they grow up, but
at some point they know so muchmore about what they want, why
they want it and how to get it,and at that point they can, like
(44:52):
the generations before maybedid choose education, if that
should be, you know, if that'sone piece of the puzzle for them
, one piece of the puzzle forthem, whereas the mindless
compulsory education of childrenunder the age of 15 is a
completely different story.
So I think that's one of thegreat benefits to have.
Iris Chen (45:15):
I totally agree.
Yeah, that's definitely been myexperience, with unschooling in
particular, because school issuch a big part of life.
I'm not sure what it was likein your country growing up, but
(45:35):
in America there's like so muchthat is centered around
schooling, that is centeredaround schooling in a child's
life and in a parent of youngchild's life, that once you take
that out of the picture or onceyou question whether that's an
inevitability, then you are ableto question a lot of other
(46:05):
things.
It's like oh, does it have tobe like that?
Do I have to have a nine tofive job?
Do I have to own a house?
Do I have to get married andhave children?
It's like all of these thingswhere it's no longer sort of
like what you were talking about.
This mindfulness is no longer amindless, unconscious way of
living, living where, uh, yeah,you're just doing what the
(46:27):
person next to you is doing, butit's like, oh, what do I really
want out of life?
What's what is meaningful, whatserves me?
How can I serve my community?
All of those things are it?
I just like blows the boxes,the walls off the boxes and I
(46:48):
love the word that you used interms of being playful with it,
like, how can we play with therules a little bit instead of
assuming that I have to obey therules?
Jesper Conrad (46:59):
but it's also a big responsibility to put on the
people and our children.
I remember I had like thenormal kind of life.
I went to public school and toa gymnasium, high school thingy,
and then when it was finishedit was like, oh, here's this
thing called life.
Now I need to figure out whatto do and.
(47:20):
And then we even remove theschool from our children and say
, hey, let's play with it, let'sfigure it out.
Uh, I understand if it's a, ifit's a big challenge for them,
where sometimes, in my darkesthours, I sometimes dream back to
a nine to five, a house and noneed to figure it all out, no
(47:41):
need to to think it through,just.
But that's only in the darkesthours.
The other hours I'm like, rightnow I'm looking out of the
window.
I can see, like the familiar inbarcelona where we live for a
month.
What a gift, what a, what ablessing of a life to have
created.
Iris Chen (47:59):
Yeah, and sorry I just want to go back like
there's nothing wrong in my mindwith a nine-to-five job or
staying in one place.
I think again, it's just likethis freedom to to like be very
intentional and mindful aboutwhat you choose, because that's
the type of life that you want,and so it may look very like not
(48:27):
counter-cultural, but if we doit with intention and we do it
in a way that makes sense for usand our family, I think that
that's fine.
You know, like I don't think allunschoolers like for me I I am
not sort of an edgy person and Imean a lot of unschoolers is
(48:50):
the assumption maybe thatthey're, like you know, sort of
on the margins and more likegranola and stuff like that.
I don't know these assumptionsabout unschoolers and I think I
love that there's the freedom tobe however we want to be and
however we want to show up.
But I think that is the beautyof unschooling is that we can
(49:14):
sort of shape and curate thelife that works for us and our
families and our personalitiesand all of that
if we wind it back to thenewborn and the wish to do
really well we want to take careof them and we want to make
(49:36):
sure we do this job well so thatthey are we can even go down
that discourse and say they'reset up for success then I think
the big advantage of unschoolingis that when they are 15 or 20,
whatever some age where theymake important decisions about
(49:58):
the next stage of life they knowwhat success is.
They know what their personalidea of success is.
They're not mindlesslyfollowing some external idea of
success, because it can look inmany different ways.
Being happy and healthy, whichis maybe a mainstream box to put
(50:21):
the idea of success into, ifyou have a happy and healthy
life, that's a success, I'd say,but that doesn't look the same
for everyone.
And growing up unschooled you'vehad these conversations and
you've had this space to evolveyour own personality and to
really find solid ground underyour feet.
(50:42):
So when you're at that age thatmy husband was just talking
about, when you feel like, oh,now I have to figure it out,
it's not that hard.
You know what it is.
You know how it feels.
You probably also know how itfeels not to be in a good place
and you've been in a safe spacefor many, many years to work out
how to handle that as well.
(51:02):
So that's another take, that'san alternative take on being set
up for success To know exactlywhat it looks like, to know
exactly what it looks like toyou personally, and to know
exactly how it feels when it'snot success, how to handle that
as well.
That's being set up.
Yeah, I'd say.
Jesper Conrad (51:23):
Iris how to handle that as well.
That's being set up.
Yeah, I'd say.
Iris, what would the first stepof untigering be?
If there's a tiger mom outthere who have heard about you,
or listening to the podcast,what is your like?
Hey, this is the first step.
This is what you should do.
Iris Chen (51:39):
Oh, wow, I don't know .
I think I like to get to theroot of the problem.
Sometimes it's not the easieststep, but I think it's pretty
foundational and I think, again,it has to do with our
relationship with ourselves.
Like a tiger parent is somebodywho probably has really high
expectations for themselves, whois perhaps a perfectionist,
(52:06):
perhaps, uh, afraid of failure,um, maybe has a lot of anxiety.
So, like, I think it.
To me it would go back to thereparenting of our relationship
with ourselves.
Like, just how is one way thatyou can show more compassion
(52:31):
towards yourself today?
So, instead of like, oh my gosh, I'm so horrible because I I
did, did you know, failed insome ways, like, oh, like just a
lot of compassion.
I had a really rough morning, Ididn't get enough sleep, and
again, it's not like a way toexcuse our behavior, but just to
(52:55):
, um, have a lot of empathy,grow, grow our empathy for
ourselves.
Jesper Conrad (53:04):
I love it, yeah, yeah.
And for people who want to knowmore about you and your work,
how do they find you If you canname drop your book and your
websites, et cetera?
Iris Chen (53:16):
Yes, so my website is untigeringcom.
My book is UntigeringPeacefulering peaceful parenting
for the deconstructing tigerparent, and you can find that um
anywhere that or most placesthat books are sold, I'm not
sure about internationally, butum also online bookstores, and
(53:38):
I'm also on social media atuntagering.
Jesper Conrad (53:46):
But yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (53:46):
Fantastic.
Untagering is the word.
Jesper Conrad (53:49):
It should be easy for people.
It was a pleasure having youtoday.
Thanks a lot for your time.
Iris Chen (53:54):
Yeah, I had a great conversation with you.
Thank you so much.
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