March 27, 2025 • 51 mins
Luz and David from Evolving Education left careers in biotechnology to explore and document alternative education models worldwide. Frustrated by rigid schooling systems, they traveled to over 170 learning centers to understand how children learn best outside the traditional classroom.
In this episode, we talk about how compulsory schooling originated in 19th-century Prussia as a system designed to produce obedient soldiers and workers, a model later exported worldwide as a tool for colonization and cultural suppression. We discuss how education has been shaped by these historical forces and why so many modern schools still emphasize conformity over curiosity. Luz and David explain the “Expedition Methodology” they developed, which focuses on exploration, experimentation, and community as key components of meaningful learning. Rather than pushing a single solution, they emphasize the importance of cross-pollination between different educational approaches and the need for families, teachers, and learning communities to collaborate in rethinking how children grow and learn.
Instead of waiting for top-down reforms, they work directly with those already creating change—educators, parents, and pioneers looking for alternatives. Their mission is to make these models more accessible, providing tools and resources to help others implement child-led, passion-driven learning environments.
Visit evolvingeducation.org to access their free ebook, watch their documentary films, and join their community. They also host monthly “Voices of Change” webinars featuring educators working at the forefront of alternative learning.
🔗 Learn more about Evolving Education
- https://www.instagram.com/evolvingeducationorg/
- https://www.facebook.com/evolvingeducation.org/
- https://evolvingeducation.org/en
- https://www.youtube.com/@evolvingeducation
- https://www.facebook.com/groups/311079551216115/
🗓️ Recorded March 18th, 2025. 📍 Barcelona, Spain
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:00):
So today we're together with Luz and David, and
it is because you have aproject called Evolving
Education and I got very, verycurious.
So first of all, welcome.
It's great to see you.
Luz Olid (00:14):
Thank you, thank you.
David Caballero (00:16):
Thank you for the invitation.
Jesper Conrad (00:17):
Yeah, and for the people who are watching the
podcast then it looks likeyou're somewhere that looks
sunny and wonderful, so if youcould start there.
Where are you?
Luz Olid (00:30):
okay, we are in the coast, the pacific coast of
mexico, in a place called puertoescondido.
Um yeah, and the temperature isalways summer, so that's
tropical.
David Caballero (00:41):
We do have like heavier rains at some point.
And then the place that we'reliving right now it's, uh,
terrible for the rain, but weare adapting every season a
little bit the way we live socecilia and I are traveling the
world without children.
Jesper Conrad (00:59):
We are focusing on unschooling and parenting,
and when I saw your project, itlooks like you are looking at
what can work in education where, as I mentioned before, we
started the recording.
When I look at the currentcompulsory school system, I'm
(01:21):
looking and thinking this looksterrible.
It doesn't seem to work.
It is too rigid, too strict andnot a good place for children
to be.
But you're looking at some ofall the can we say, evolved
alternative educations.
How did that happen and why didyou start at this interest?
Luz Olid (01:40):
That's probably my fault.
So I think we both studiedbiotechnology and we're working
in the uk for in in science forfive years or so.
But I was always reallypassionate about education and
every time I was leaving my job,went to to, uh, some place to
(02:01):
do some volunteer program withchildren, and then at some point
it was like, okay, this thingof success, no, I was following
that path to be successful inlife.
But then I realized that thatwasn't making me happy and then
it was like, okay, it's time tolisten to what my passions are.
And it was working with kids.
So I decided to do my master'sto become a teacher, but then
(02:24):
the methodologies that they wereteaching me was like this
cannot be, because then I wasgonna be preparing kids to be
completely as lost as I got as Iwas when I finished university.
So it was okay, there should beother ways of teaching and
learning.
I just don't know how to do itin a different way.
So then I did my the the thesisof the master about alternative
(02:47):
methodologies in education andfound out that there were so
many alternatives and so manyschools doing things in a
completely different way thatwere actually empowering kids to
take responsibility of theirlives and to follow their
passions.
So I was like, okay, I want todo that.
And then I started.
I had to start the teaching andit was like, wait one second,
(03:09):
this looks super beautiful inthe theory, but I didn't know
how to implement it in thepractice.
It was like the first intuitionwas like, okay, I'll put
everything that is in the bookin a PowerPoint presentation,
and that's going to make itdifferent.
And then it was like, okay,this is put, everything that is
in the book in a PowerPointpresentation, and that's going
to make it different.
And then we said, okay, this isnot it either.
This looks really beautiful,this looks really diverse, but I
(03:34):
just don't know how to do it.
Then I proposed to do a triparound the world visiting these
alternative and innovativeeducational centers with the
camera, interviewing thefacilitators, the students, the,
the parents, just to get to seehow they were actually doing it
in real life, so we canactually imitate it.
David Caballero (03:54):
And then, um, yeah, start doing it in a
different way yeah, yeah, andjust to bring my my path along
along loose.
Um, yeah, I was also working asa scientist, and more kind of a
scientist, uh, managingscientific projects and
collaboration and so on.
But I guess that the faster Imove up in the in the corporate
ladder, maybe I move up too sofast that he didn't get used to
(04:18):
uh power dynamics, uh egos,fights and all these type of
things which was like was likewait a minute, why, why are we
wasting so much time justreformatting powerpoint
presentations to show them toanother manager and head and and
all these little titles thatmean that are meaningless but in
a way kind of to to keep peoplethere feeling important in a
(04:39):
way or other?
So start to think about whatcan I do with my skills that can
be meaningful?
Because I didn't follow kind ofthe academic path in science,
because I wanted to do somethingthat was connected with the
real world and to do somethingthat was meaningful for society.
But now in industry I foundthat I was doing something that
was meaningful to make money notnecessarily for society, always
(04:59):
.
So I started being moreinterested into social
innovation, reading books aboutsystems change, about how to use
our skills to make the worldmore sustainable, more just and
equitable.
And then when Luth suggested itwas like a way to look at a
specific area in education, alsoin social innovation.
In each country that we went, wepretty much look for the hubs
(05:22):
for social innovation, forimpact investment, for social
startups and the hubs foreducation innovation, and little
by little these two paths mergeinto evolving education.
And even though initially for meeducation was like a completely
unknown, the more we went intothese spaces, like democratic
(05:42):
schools, self-directed learningcenters, communities of families
, I was so amazed by thepossibilities because I found
there are young people that weremore able to solve conflicts,
to peacefully, to express theirchallenges and weaknesses and
talk about them in a dialoguethat I have never seen adults
(06:03):
doing this thing, and so thatwas inspiring in a dialogue that
I have never seen adults doingthis thing, and so that was
inspiring.
But at the same time it was veryfrustrating because it was like
, wait a minute, I have justlearned that this even exists,
but most young people don't,even most families don't know
that this is even a possibility,like when we went back once in
a while to Spain, where ourfamily is and had my nephews,
(06:24):
and they were so frustrated withthe classes and I saw how they
were already put in a box ofthis is the key that is bad in
math, this is the key that iswithin that, and I was like, wow
, this is so limiting and I'm sosad that these models are not
more widespread.
So at that point, covidhappened, left us stuck in
Mexico, but for a really goodreason, because we ended up
(06:46):
loving it and still live herefive years after and made our
mission to democratize theaccess to this tool so that more
young people could have accessto them.
Luz Olid (06:56):
Yeah, and at the beginning the idea was like we
have around 170 interviews.
It was a crazy amount ofinformation that we wanted to
share and we didn't know reallyhow.
So, uh, first we did a movie,then kind of it was a long movie
that ended up being twodifferent ones, and then it was
okay.
But this, even if we sharedthis, uh, then this inspiration
(07:19):
is not enough to actually forteachers or or for facilitators
to start implementing them.
So we created another trainingcalled the Learning Expedition,
in which we put all thedifferent interviews and so on,
telling a story of an adventurethat goes from getting to know
who we are to accompanyingchildren and youth to support
(07:43):
them, to develop their autonomyand to figure out what are their
passions.
So that's more or less howEvolving Education started.
Cecilie Conrad (07:53):
It sounds like you've been collecting so much
information that it'soverwhelming and I kind of
almost want to ask an annoyingquestion.
Can you sum it up?
David Caballero (08:04):
for the listener.
So then, what to do yeah, thisis a question that we get asked
all the time and that we getcompletely puzzled because it's
like, oh my god, there's toomuch.
Cecilie Conrad (08:14):
I know I know, I know but I'm just curious
what's your answer?
David Caballero (08:20):
yeah, we spent like a full year just
synthesizing information, justanalyzing them, categorizing
them in different bits here andthere.
But maybe the best way so farthat I've got to explain this is
that we have actually evenframed it into a methodology
that we call Expedition.
That is based on explore,experience and express so with
(08:43):
the explore.
It's both inside and outside.
Luz Olid (08:46):
So explore, getting to know ourselves a lot better who
you learn best.
David Caballero (08:51):
Yeah, self-regulation.
There's a lot of that thatneeds to happen to really be
able to support young people.
And then the external part isto open up our eyes to all those
other possibilities that arethere and inspire us and show us
how it is already possible.
Like, summerhill has beenaround for more than 100 years,
many other centers as well, forlots of years, so this already
(09:12):
exists.
We don't need to reinvent thewheel.
We just need to see what's outthere and get pieces here and
there.
We don't need to replicate.
Also, we don't all need to havethe same Waldorf stamp, even
though it can be good tocommunicate with families, you
know, but you can make your ownthings.
Luz Olid (09:35):
The second, the experience part.
That's meaning that we need tomake experiments.
David Caballero (09:37):
We need to make experiments.
Yeah, I think experimenting.
Luz Olid (09:39):
Those things that move us.
Then make an experiment, Try it, Figure out if you like it, if
you don't like it, how does itgo?
And then that reiterativeprocess of okay, this didn't
work really well this time, butthen also sometimes or most of
the times it doesn't work, whichis okay, because then we need
to make peace with failure andget to understand that life is a
(09:59):
process and not that resultthat we're trying to achieve.
David Caballero (10:03):
And this is something that is really hard to
do, I think, in education andwith children, because we care
so much about them that we wantto do something that is perfect
and definitive.
But life doesn't work like thatand the world is changing all
the time.
So it's about changing themindset from perfect solution to
an experiment after another,and thinking about learning
centers and even families as akind of a community that is in a
(10:28):
continuous process ofreinvention.
And how can we set up themechanisms so we can keep on
adapting and learning andchanging along time?
And the last one of Express isthat all of this is hard, as you
probably know, and havingpeople to share the process,
with the challenges, theinsights, is super valuable.
(10:49):
Most of the people that weconnect with feel quite isolated
, feel that they are the onlyones that think this way.
When I think there's a lot ofpeople that think this way,
there's a few that are activelydriving action, there's a lot
that want this, and there aremany that, as soon as they know
that this is a possibility, wantto jump in.
So it's about keeping thecommunication going, creating a
(11:11):
space.
It's like I think you've gotsome of these circles as well
for parents, for instance, toshare, so that we feel less
alone and we can reflect on thatprocess collectively.
Luz Olid (11:22):
And it's also about creating relationships based on
trust and that community thatkeeps building and then we keep
growing and and evolving alltogether.
So, yeah, those parts ofgetting to know who you are,
then getting to understand theworld you're living in and then
having an impact and decidingwhat you want to do.
So it's just, I feel at the endit's kind of taking small
(11:45):
experiments and then reframingit and seeing, okay, this way
will work, this not.
Okay, how do I want to thinkthis time?
What do I want to do the next?
So that that reflection isalways there and and help us to
get to know ourselves better andto to know who we want to be.
Cecilie Conrad (12:03):
I feel so that is all the things that is
impossible to do in atraditional school system.
Pretty, much well, no, but it isbecause someone else is telling
you what to do, how to do it,whether you did it good or bad,
and how to adjust to do itbetter next time, and why it was
wrong, and no one cares whatyou really.
(12:23):
No one cares what's importantto you.
No one cares why you did it ina different way.
We even took that out.
Now the exceptionally good,creative, innovative way of
solving a problem is out of theequation at this point.
That was part of the equationwhen I was educated.
You could get gold star forthat, for trying new ways.
(12:44):
But that's out now.
So getting to know who you areand exploring and and and
experimenting and and failingand then trying again it's off
the table.
So now I'm just curious exactlywho are you working with?
David Caballero (12:59):
because inside you know it's not an option so
we started being very idealisticand wanted to change the
education system and and how toreach teachers and principals
and so on.
But we found exactly whatyou're mentioning, that this
massive resistance, uh, even afunny story.
Luz Olid (13:18):
we even went to uh, we were to a nun's school and what
a shock.
Jesper Conrad (13:27):
I thought we were going to get burned like
witches.
David Caballero (13:31):
And we put there one of our films which is
called Killing Curiosity andit's talking about all the
problems in the educationalsystem in 15 minutes.
So we started with that and thenwe could see like the fire on
the ice, like get these peopleaway from here.
No, but for real, we work withlots of teachers.
Actually there's a lot ofmotivation.
I mean, teaching is a veryvocational profession.
(13:53):
Lots of people get in itbecause they really care about
children and they want to dothings differently.
So when you open up thepossibility for instance Mexico
we got last year a partnershipwith one of the government
states to train a few of theirteachers and we could see that
massive transition because therewasn't an awareness even of the
(14:14):
problems of the educationalassistance.
They were just trying to fixreally tiny things within that
monolithic system.
When we open up hey, why don'twe do student assemblies?
When they select how they wantto develop the projects there's
actually a lot of flexibilitywithin established structures.
That is not leveraged out ofconformity, fear, wanting to do
(14:41):
the minimum or just lack ofawareness, like in Spain, for
instance.
Recently they opened some hourswithin the school calendar that
are open for experimentation,and then teachers complained
that they weren't given acurriculum.
So they designed a curriculumfor it, which is insane, but it
was just out of lack ofawareness of what could be done
(15:02):
with that hour.
Luz Olid (15:03):
That could be a conflict resolution circle or
something way more meaningful Ifeel that what is missing is the
inspiration and, like themindset, because, as we, we have
never seen or experiences,experience, other ways of
teaching and learning.
So we keep repeating what wesaw, but then when we, when you
have a space with other teachers, that they are telling you that
we kind of find.
(15:23):
What do we have in common?
Everyone wants the best forchildren, everyone wants to
support and to develop theirpassions, but then all that
happens in the traditionalsystem is not working.
Then, when they see differentpossibilities, they are like
wait one second and then they, Isee the creativity, I'm going
to try this thing and I'm goingto try this thing and I'm gonna
(15:45):
try this other thing.
But there is so much uh, self,uh, I don't know self-awareness
and so like being really, reallybrave to try things, I think
that that's one of the hardestthings to do to just break that
barrier of this is how alwayshave been done.
Now I have the possibility todo it in a different way, but
(16:07):
then when they have a communitywhere they can share that, I
feel that there is a little bitmore space to start trying.
And then kids and youth theysurprise you because once that
you gave them the possibility,things happen and then you see
the potential and then theystart doing other small
experiments.
So I feel it comes a lot fromfear, but then having a
(16:28):
community which is alignedreally helps to Coming back to
your question, cecile.
David Caballero (16:34):
So we do work with teachers.
Maybe it's a fourth of thepeople that we work with.
Another fourth are families whosee what we're doing Like, ah,
what tools can I integrate in myhomeschooling or unschooling
practice?
Some of another fourth will bepeople from those families that
decide to run their owncommunity or they want to open a
(16:55):
school, and then they leveragemany of these methodologies.
And the other fourth are peoplethat already have alternative
schools and want to train theirfacilitators and then we provide
the training.
So at the end it's a reallydiverse mix which is not so
common, I think, because we kindof host conversations and
training sessions where there'speople in conventional schools
(17:18):
and schooling families andfacilitators in Montessori
school.
So you know, it's very diverseperspective, but then through
questions and conversationseveryone can learn from one
another.
Jesper Conrad (17:28):
Yeah, but the work you're doing reminds me of
some of the work andorganization I worked for.
They are called Gaia Educationand what they do is that they
had collected the knowledgecreated in ecovillages over the
last 40, 50 years, becauseecovillages are kind of like
(17:49):
small.
They call them livinglaboratories because they often
create a project document.
It figure out what's going on,and it sounds like this is what
you have been doing and aredoing for alternative education
saying who are out there, whichkind of different styles are out
there and what have they tried.
(18:10):
Yeah, I, standing on the sideof an unschooling parent.
Our kids haven't been to school.
Our oldest were in a school,which is like a reformist, were
in a Frenet school, which islike a reformist.
You probably know, I kind oflook at the whole standard
school system and, as I said inthe start, I have just given up
(18:33):
on it.
So I'm happy that someone istrying to show that there are
options, because I don't believeeveryone will unschool, that it
fits for all families and thatpeople will do it.
Everyone will unschool, that itfits for all families and that
people will do it, but I wouldlove to see some of the
knowledge that come from themontessori, from the waldorf,
from the way on schooling, fromall these different schools, way
(18:58):
of trying education to get outthere and be tried and hopefully
get into the system.
But maybe I have given up onthe system.
Do you think there will come aslow evolution in it?
David Caballero (19:16):
Well, I think it has already changed a lot
right A long time and it willkeep changing, like now.
If you look at the globalrecommendations of UNESCO, the
European Union, they all talkabout lifelong learning, agency
critical thinking as being topone and two skills and
competencies for young peoplethat need to be developed.
(19:37):
The problem is how to cascadethat down to the real learning
spaces where the huge majorityof children are, and for that
there are things happening likeproject-based learning.
Now is quite common in manyschools, for instance, as a term
.
There might be different waysof actually how to implement it,
and many of them are stillquite narrow.
(19:57):
Others are a little bit moreopen.
But yeah, I mean, our goal ishow to make this possible for
more children.
More young people have accessto it.
One of the ways is trying tochange established schools,
which, for us, is the hardestthing.
So there we're mostly focusedon building awareness through
our documentary films and onlinecontents and so on, which are
(20:20):
communicated in a way that takesyou through a journey of
awareness, rather thanconfrontation straight away and
then rejection, while most ofour support systems, trainings
and so on are aiming are thepioneers and early adopters, so
people that are already, theirvalues are already aligned with
this shift and what they'relooking at for the tools and the
(20:42):
ecosystem to create newlearning spaces or to grow the
ones they have.
So that, yeah, we can make.
If you know about the change, Idon't know if it's a change
curve or how it is, but there'slike pioneers, early adopters,
then early followers, latefollowers and laggards.
So we're mostly focused on thebeginning of that curve learning
(21:05):
from the pioneers, sharing thatwith the early adopters,
creating awareness for the earlyfollowers so that we can move
that bell curve forward.
Luz Olid (21:15):
But also I guess that when at the beginning that we
tried to go to the schools andit was such a confrontation, I
guess that is because if we gothe same way of the things that
you are doing is bad and thenimposing a different way that is
exactly the same that thetraditional system is doing, so
(21:36):
we cannot do that.
Then how can we haveconversations in which there is
a little bit more space to tothink about new things?
So like, at the end it's peoplethat is curious to have
something inside them that tellsthem this is not right, I want
to do it in a different way.
Um, I feel that those are theones that are happy to to give
it a try, the ones that arecompletely focused on not.
(21:59):
This is like this.
Then there is not much we cando with them.
David Caballero (22:04):
It also happens the other way.
By the way, like in ourcommunities, we have got
unschooling families thatcompletely refuse the use of any
books or learning materials.
Everything needs to be 100%driven by young people and in
these conversations and dynamicssometimes they learn from a
teacher in a conventional school.
There are some cool resourcesthat are interested to trigger
(22:27):
conversations or just to presentoptions to children.
So there's also a thing thatcross-pollinization, because one
of the things I have perceivedin this environment of
alternative education ispolarization.
Well, it's happening everywherein the world, polarization and
kind of coming into theseinformation bubbles where we
(22:47):
just get things that reinforceour existing views and we're
trying to break that a littlebit so we can have conversation
from one another, still havingdifferent opinions and decisions
in our life, but being open tolearn from other people as well.
Cecilie Conrad (23:04):
But I still think I mean I spray what you're
doing.
I just still think that there'ssomething about the school
system and most cultures thatit's ancient.
We came up with the idea long,long time ago and it's
government run.
There is politics behind it.
(23:26):
Some version of democracy putssome people in power to decide a
curriculum, and most of theseschool systems these days
they're measuring stick as thepiece of test, so they have the
(23:46):
whole.
You know, how do we performrelative to the piece of test?
So I'm just thinking I have alot of respect for school
teachers.
I know that they work withpassion because they want to be
around children, young peopleand and make their lives better,
but they work inside a systemthat makes it very, very hard to
(24:09):
wiggle at all.
And I'm just wondering if thereis a way, if there even is a
way where we can approach thetop of the problem, you know, or
the root, you could call it.
We need to get rid of theircurriculum, we need to get rid
(24:30):
of the pizza test, otherwisewe're not really, you know,
going this is really deep, likethe, the.
Luz Olid (24:37):
The root of the problem is not only the
curriculum.
It's like the the structure ofthe system is based on a
hierarchy, like society is basedon a hierarchy.
The competition is the base ofcapitalism, progress and results
.
It's like um, we have to keepmore and more so once that you
start questioning theeducational system, that's.
David Caballero (24:57):
That's when you end up questioning the whole,
the whole system, and you'rerunning away we tend to say that
once you question how you learn, you end up questioning how you
live and you start makingdifferent, different decisions.
No, like I don't know, justsharing from our own personal
experience.
We started questioning why dowe shit into clean water, so now
we have a dry toilet?
(25:19):
Or why do we eat things thatare associated with cancer, so
we stop eating processed meatsand red meats, things like that.
Cecilie Conrad (25:27):
Which is also actually, if you think about it
for just one second, I hadcancer.
I beat cancer 14 years ago.
I cannot recommend it.
I'd say avoid it.
David Caballero (25:48):
That was not fun years ago.
I cannot recommend it.
I'd say avoid it.
Once you start questioning theestablished structures of
society, of learning, you go toto living and instead changing a
lot of things in in your life.
Like you're questioning as wellwhy do we have to live always
in the same place, why yourfamily cannot get experiences
from around the world?
Um, and you start makingdecisions in that direction.
But that's a massive change,like at the moment.
We know that there areorganizations trying to
influence policies and turningschools into more democratic
(26:10):
spaces.
There are advancements in thatarea.
We are trying to work at thehuman level.
We think that even if youchange the curriculum I
mentioned before some of thechange, political changes in
spain, for instance, or inmexico, um, even changing those
things with the same people withthe same mindset, nothing
changes at the end.
(26:30):
Even if you say, oh, let's alluse the circle, let's all use a
sociocratic decision making, andif you got a hierarchical,
conventional teacher in front ofthat room, it's not going to be
a horizontal decision-makingtool, it's just no one is going
to speak.
So we're trying to work fromthe inside.
Luz Olid (26:48):
Yeah, it's like, for example, mindfulness.
Now a lot of people are tryingto introduce mindfulness in the
classroom and then some kidsshare with us what mindfulness
was like.
Oh my God, we have mindfulnesslike something horrible, because
they are like, no, you have tosit down and not move, and then
maybe that's not the best way totrain mindfulness with kids.
(27:10):
Maybe we can do a movementmeditation, maybe there are
other things that we can do thatare more suitable.
So, yeah, the mindset I find isthe most challenging, because
we need people to questionthings and start taking their
own decisions and things thatthey feel aligned with, but then
not that many people have eventhe possibility to explore what
(27:32):
they think or what they want tobelieve.
David Caballero (27:35):
And building trust.
I think that's the other corething.
Like many of these decisionsare driven out of fear being
alone in the world and wantinggovernment to supply all the
structures, and being afraid ofwhat is going to happen with my
children in the future.
They need all the titles and aPhD, and all of this because the
world is uncertain.
And it's all this driven byfear Scarcity.
Luz Olid (28:00):
Scarcity uncertainty.
David Caballero (28:03):
So that's a lot of what we start working on
what's happening inside ofpeople, so that these tools and
methodologies can work.
Jesper Conrad (28:18):
Because otherwise they're pretty empty if we
don't do the internal work.
In your free ebook youmentioned in the start of it the
origin of the school system andmaybe many people don't know
the origin of the compulsoryschool system, so if you could
explain about that.
But also I wanted to take alittle talk about how long time
(28:43):
have this experiment actuallybeen going on of the compulsory
school system?
It feels like a lifetime forfor many of us, but it's
actually not that longhistorical so.
So if you mention, uh, what youwrote about in your e-book
around it, yeah, it's somethinglike 200 years, more or less.
David Caballero (29:04):
It's what the schooling system has been around
200 years within humanexistence.
So if we think about when westarted, human started,
agriculture was something like15,000 years ago.
So that's from agriculture, soit's really a really small time
(29:24):
frame to derive from that that.
This is the way human beingslearn and there's a structure
that has been set in place forthe last 200 years and how it
was started.
Compulsory primary educationstarted in Prussia before it was
called Russia after the FirstWorld War, to have a better
trained army.
In some of the battles thesoldiers back up and they run
(29:49):
away.
They didn't like what they sawand then they thought we need to
start from childhood.
We need to establish a systemwhere we train young people to
be obedient, to follow orderswithout questioning them.
And there is as well whenknowledge was breaking down into
subjects.
Up to that point, there wasn'tanything as a math class.
(30:11):
Maybe novels went to some sortof priest or something like this
, where they talk aboutphilosophy and nature and a lot
of things that were connected.
This is when, as well, subjectswere created, the kind of the
timetable structure of, of ofprimary schools, then secondary
schools and so on follow withindustrial revolution and the.
(30:33):
The way universities work waslater on in the us um I think
it's called um, I don't remembernow, but it was like a group of
10 men in the US during theIndustrial Revolution that
decided how the preparatorysystem for high school needed to
be for people to be ready tothen take on a specialized
training at universities to fitinto the works that they were
(30:56):
requiring at that point.
And from that point in historywe have just been tweaking that
kind of within that samestructure, 200 years old.
We are just making smallmodifications.
Oh, let's change the name ofthe subject, or rather than one
hour, let's make it 45 minutesor one hour and a half the time
(31:17):
of the break one hour, not 30minutes.
Or the structure of the class,like oh, now sitting in rows
instead of um circle, whicheverreally small changes, but you
can see many of these, evenarmy-like um instruction in the
ways that rows are made in manycountries, kind of raising the
flag, singing the anthem, aremany things, many things, things
(31:38):
to make us feel more patriotic.
In fact, schools have been usedas a method for nation building
around the world.
Well, actually, people shouldknow as well about residential
schools and how it was shifted.
Now from the origins of powerin the world in the West, europe
(32:03):
and the US, and now we moveinto a world where those powers
are colonizing other countries.
Schooling was a tool used todominate other countries as well
.
In India, for instance, theBritish delegates set up the
schooling system and literallythe quote was they can be brown
on the outside, but we need themto behave as if they were white
(32:27):
on the inside, and that was thereason to be for the schooling
system that was implemented inIndia residential school system
or in Australia, children weretaken away from their families
to civilize them, to remove anyelements of their culture, their
language, and that's one of thepopulations in the world that
(32:48):
right now has the highest ratesof suicide, drug addiction and
lots of other problems becauseof the massive destruction that
was done to their own identityand in places like Mexico, where
we live now, it was a way fornation building.
So after independence even so itwas it was already pretty much
a Spanish people that remain inMexico in power just now.
(33:11):
They call themselves Mexicans,but it's still the power was in
the same hands, and they useschooling as a way as well to to
unite people, because in theschools in Mexico, even though
there are lots of nativelanguages, none of them are
talked.
The only language that istalked is Spanish.
Everyone sings the anthem,Everyone learns about the heroes
(33:31):
of the revolution, which wereagain the same Spanish people
fighting against other Spanishpeople that went back to Spain,
all of these things.
So it's really been used as anelement of domination around the
world.
Luz Olid (33:45):
Yeah, it's a colonization method to remove
the identities and the differentcultures.
It's removing diversity, whichis craziness, because one of the
things that I really value isthe whole diversity of the world
and, for example, languages notwhich define how we like
different ways of thinking.
It was something like fivepercent of the population were
(34:06):
speaking 90, like the 98 percentof the different languages,
which is like wow, massiverestriction.
No, like now really few peoplehave different ways of seeing
the world and then the rest iskind of standardized.
Cecilie Conrad (34:25):
So that's craziness yeah, it is a crazy
story.
It's.
It's also.
It's just complicated.
We are just with our threeteenagers that still live at
home studying at the moment thehistory of Denmark and Greenland
.
We're Danish and Greenland ispart of our country and it's on
(34:54):
the table at the moment becauseof the American government's
interest.
So we felt we need to knowwhat's going on with that,
because we don't know.
Greenland is very far away fromthe rest of Denmark and it's a
different language, a differentculture and what really happened
and the more I dive into it,it's really really complicated.
(35:21):
Yes, yes, schooling and languagestandardization.
It was a tool of suppressionand and was hierarchically
leveled, so one group is betterthan another group.
But even so, it wasn't allblack.
(35:41):
There was some white there aswell.
There was some good intentiongoing on and there was something
.
I mean, I'm no professor of thisarea, but I think to some
extent, maybe 100 years ago, itwas true that education, even
(36:02):
standardized education, gave youbetter options in life and
removed you from children dyingbefore the age of two and
starvation and things that maybeactually needed something,
(36:22):
actually needed something, andwas it fair that one group had
that and the other group didn'thave it Now that we had met each
other.
I mean, we had met each other.
The British were in Australiaand the Danes were in Greenland,
and some things were not fair,and, of course, a lot of it
happened because of greed andbecause of a lot of, I don't
know, imperialistic ideas, butsome of it happened out of
(36:45):
compassion and a want to help,and maybe at some point it was
true that education was thesavior keeping up with history.
Now, if I can avoid talkingabout imperialism because I
think it's too complicated, Ihave nothing smart, I think, to
(37:06):
say about it, except let's talkabout, let's at least introduce
the idea of nuance.
But I think now, in 2025, itshould be well established that
we don't need to sit down afive-year-old to shut up and
listen for six, eight hours aday in order for them to learn
(37:28):
to read.
Leave them alone and they'lllearn to read.
Let them play Minecraft andthey will read within a month,
or whatever they want to do.
We should know by now, butsomehow we don't.
And why don't we?
Why do we keep going with thisoutdated system?
(37:50):
So many other things are beingchanged quickly.
Luz Olid (37:59):
But, yes, we just keep doing it.
We think that success in lifedepends on that, that you do
well in life.
It depends that you go toschool.
There is this definition ofwhat you have to do in order to
be successful.
David Caballero (38:13):
And also I feel like we're talking about a
repressed population, children,Repression towards black people.
In the US, it took a long timefrom the black people fighting
for it for women to get theirvotes.
It was more or less at the sametime.
It took a long time for women'sdemonstrations to be able to
(38:33):
vote and be considered fullhuman beings.
This is just insane.
But this is recent history.
Now we're talking about arepressed population that is
tiny and that even less kind ofphysical power, less voice to be
able to express what they need,and where everyone else feels
that we know better than them.
(38:54):
So how can we listen to theirvoice?
How can we let them choose whatthey want to learn?
So it's a massive questioningof how repression affects
different repressed populations.
Luz Olid (39:07):
It's also happening with aging, like when people get
old and then they go out of thesystem of working, then they
are also not considered enough.
So, pretty much like peoplethat are working, those have a
voice, I'll say, well, womenstill are.
There is a lot of things thatthat still need to be done in
(39:30):
terms to reach that equality,but, yeah, that that's a reality
.
Like not, there is nohorizontal structures in which
we listen to everyone.
David Caballero (39:39):
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of challenges, no
challenges.
I think the element ofrepression, the element of
change in society, is reallyhard.
The element of the impact ofchanges in education takes
decades in being seen whatthey're doing with children
today.
So any political change ishardly going to be beneficial
(40:02):
for the political party in powerthat day or those four years
they're not going to see.
Probably they will see evennegative statistics if they use
the same statistics, if theydon't change what they're
measuring in the short term.
Luz Olid (40:20):
So yeah, that's a lot.
I guess another thing is thatit really depends on the country
and the situation, because, forexample, we have one of the
people that is training with us.
She's from Sierra Leone and shewas telling me the situation
and when I was telling her abouteducation, children need to be
self-directed, they need to havethe possibilities to choose and
so on, and she was like Luzluthier, that's not like for
(40:44):
women here going to education,like having education means that
they are not gonna get pregnantand they are gonna have the
possibility to do somethingdifferent in their lives rather
than just to serve the men, andfor me that was like shit that's
.
It is like we have to have inmind that it's really
independent, depending on thecountry and the situation that
(41:05):
people is, the needs and whateducation is going to do for you
.
It's going to be different.
David Caballero (41:11):
And even if we leave aside the complexity of
the educational systems and wethink about those early pioneers
, the people that are creatingnew learning centers that are
horizontal, democratic,self-directed they are
struggling a lot to findfamilies that understand what
they're talking about.
Their families aren't completelyscared of anything that is new,
(41:31):
anything that is different.
So that's one of the key thingsthat we work with them is how to
communicate this to people thathave never heard about Because,
yes, you want the best for yourchildren.
That have never heard about.
Because, yes, you want the bestfor your children, but how do
you know that that is the bestwhen everything that you have
seen through all your life andyour father's and mother's life
was a standardized schooling andthat was a way to success and
(41:52):
the way you got the job and thesalary you got.
Now, now you got children andyou're going to do something
completely different with what'sthe arguments that I got to
convince myself as a parent andwith people that are creating
new learning centers.
It's a long journey forfamilies to get this different
view and the different way inwhich they need to also
(42:14):
integrate in these learningcenters and the way they relate
with their own children, becauseusually it doesn't work, or or
I mean ideally.
We want a change both in thefamilies and in the learning
centers, not that they gocompletely separate and we got
full hierarchy on one side andnone in the other there's need
to be coherence.
Luz Olid (42:33):
If not, we are going to just but everybody's gonna
get completely crazy like whatwas the?
That's happening yeah, what'shappening there?
Jesper Conrad (42:41):
but for people out there who are listening and
maybe are not all the way overwhere we are and they're like,
oh, we want to homeschool and wewant to unschool, but where
they're interested inalternative education, how do
they find these learning centers?
Because, and how do they choose?
(43:02):
Because it's an open worldwhere you don't know what's
going on and, as you say, canyou trust them, do you dare
trust them, or do you just putyour kids into the normal school
and it's like that was good forme, that must be good for them
yeah, there what I can say.
David Caballero (43:22):
Well, how to find them.
Luckily, there are more andmore of these networks with
online maps where you can findthese centers.
Still, they're not very updated.
I guess lack of funding is oneof the things but there are many
of these communities.
Some of them might be part ofecovill, or or they are
connected with other culturalinitiatives, and that's how you
(43:44):
end up finding that nearby you,there are some things going on,
uh, online of course as wellsocial media and so on the
congress is also like ibex oreodex or I don't know,
ecoversities alliance.
Luz Olid (43:56):
So there are there are many networks.
No, I also.
So there are many networks thatyou can tap in and check what
things are around you.
David Caballero (44:06):
And then, once you find something, how to know
whether it's good for you or not.
I think that's a process ofagain experimentation, of going
there, spending some time, yourchildren as well kind of trying
to contribute and being anactive member of that community.
Because learning centers thatare starting, or alternative
(44:28):
learning centers I think theyare in this very difficult
balance between adhering totheir values and system.
Imagine you set up an agilelearning center that is
self-directed we got Kanban andthis and that to manage things
but then you also got thefamilies requests and the family
circle.
When there are people thatarrive and say, hey, I found
(44:51):
this nice software for learninghow to read and write or to do
math, why don't you integrate itas an option for the children
or something?
So there's this continuoustension from what the founders
set up as the basis of thestructure and everything.
That is all the requests andand questions that are coming
(45:11):
from the families on a dailybasis, and the children as well
will have their own interests.
And now I want some toolsbecause I want to be something
where those resources come from.
Jesper Conrad (45:21):
So you know so I'm trying to find a way to
round off.
Cecilie Conrad (45:24):
There's a lot to talk about.
That's the problem.
Jesper Conrad (45:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (45:27):
Yeah.
Luz Olid (45:33):
It's life.
David Caballero (45:34):
Yeah, I think it's yeah, exactly, this is
living.
This is living and it'schanging and adaptation.
It's not like I'm going gonnafind the perfect solution and
this will be forever.
No, it's a, it's a nice, it'sand it's fun as well.
It can be fun.
I think it's also switching alittle bit, that that it can be
fun to reinvent our lives andway of learning and interacting
with one another.
And it's really about, I think,at the core of this is learning
(45:57):
to live in community and to ina different way of relating in a
different way that we are notused to, because we're used to
to paying for services, uh, orto the government supplying
services like schooling, butbeing part of a learning
community and activelycontributing to end to each and
being willing to be flexible andgive up some things.
Luz Olid (46:18):
We're going out of our comfort zone, so it's, it's a
lot of fun, but then we thatthat, that fear of oh no, this
is scary, and then then we getthe stack that doesn't allow us
to keep growing and and evolving.
So, yeah, it's kind of trusting, I guess that go.
It goes back to something thatI kind of think that we miss at
(46:39):
school, like trusting ourselves.
Like if we trust ourselves andwe have the ability to think
that I can do whichever thing Idecide to do and I have my
autonomy and I belong to thisgroup, then everything is
possible.
But then if I don't trustmyself and if I'm scared, if I
am all the time being underattack, then there's not going
to be flexibility ofpossibilities of doing pretty
(47:01):
much anything.
But then being in that safespace, I think is essential.
David Caballero (47:07):
And something that we're just starting a new
project on sustainable livingand in the first meeting that we
had with our new collaborators,we told them no one knows the
world, how the world is.
The only thing that we see isour own perception.
So the normal thing is going tobe that we don't understand
each other and we end up intoconflict.
So let's set up structures thatallow us to uncover those
(47:31):
different perceptions and tosolve conflicts before they
mount into something bigger.
Let's make sure that every week, we have one hour to talk about
things that we feeluncomfortable with, so that we
can work on them.
But this is something new,because we have never done it.
They have never done it either,so it's about being open to
(47:51):
these difficult conversations.
Luz Olid (47:53):
Yeah, and play.
Jesper Conrad (47:55):
Yeah, and play For people out there who want to
know more about your research.
Maybe watch some of the moviesor download your free ebook.
Where do they find you andwhere should they start?
David Caballero (48:07):
Yeah, evolvingeducationorg.
That's our website.
Over there you got the links tothe ebook and our social media
are called the same Facebook,Instagram and YouTube Evolving
Education.
And yeah, you're welcome tostart getting engaged there and
in the different communitiesthat we manage and we're.
We're now hosting as well, likea webinar series called voices
(48:28):
of change.
Just once a month, let's saythis is what you do, guys, every
week.
It's a lot of work yeah, thankyou.
Jesper Conrad (48:40):
It was super inspiring and I will go and
check out some of the videos youmade.
I look forward to it.
Thanks a lot for your time.
David Caballero (48:47):
Thank you, it's a pleasure.
So today we're together with Luz and David, and
it is because you have aproject called Evolving
Education and I got very, verycurious.
So first of all, welcome.
It's great to see you.
Luz Olid (00:14):
Thank you, thank you.
David Caballero (00:16):
Thank you for the invitation.
Jesper Conrad (00:17):
Yeah, and for the people who are watching the
podcast then it looks likeyou're somewhere that looks
sunny and wonderful, so if youcould start there.
Where are you?
Luz Olid (00:30):
okay, we are in the coast, the pacific coast of
mexico, in a place called puertoescondido.
Um yeah, and the temperature isalways summer, so that's
tropical.
David Caballero (00:41):
We do have like heavier rains at some point.
And then the place that we'reliving right now it's, uh,
terrible for the rain, but weare adapting every season a
little bit the way we live socecilia and I are traveling the
world without children.
Jesper Conrad (00:59):
We are focusing on unschooling and parenting,
and when I saw your project, itlooks like you are looking at
what can work in education where, as I mentioned before, we
started the recording.
When I look at the currentcompulsory school system, I'm
(01:21):
looking and thinking this looksterrible.
It doesn't seem to work.
It is too rigid, too strict andnot a good place for children
to be.
But you're looking at some ofall the can we say, evolved
alternative educations.
How did that happen and why didyou start at this interest?
Luz Olid (01:40):
That's probably my fault.
So I think we both studiedbiotechnology and we're working
in the uk for in in science forfive years or so.
But I was always reallypassionate about education and
every time I was leaving my job,went to to, uh, some place to
(02:01):
do some volunteer program withchildren, and then at some point
it was like, okay, this thingof success, no, I was following
that path to be successful inlife.
But then I realized that thatwasn't making me happy and then
it was like, okay, it's time tolisten to what my passions are.
And it was working with kids.
So I decided to do my master'sto become a teacher, but then
(02:24):
the methodologies that they wereteaching me was like this
cannot be, because then I wasgonna be preparing kids to be
completely as lost as I got as Iwas when I finished university.
So it was okay, there should beother ways of teaching and
learning.
I just don't know how to do itin a different way.
So then I did my the the thesisof the master about alternative
(02:47):
methodologies in education andfound out that there were so
many alternatives and so manyschools doing things in a
completely different way thatwere actually empowering kids to
take responsibility of theirlives and to follow their
passions.
So I was like, okay, I want todo that.
And then I started.
I had to start the teaching andit was like, wait one second,
(03:09):
this looks super beautiful inthe theory, but I didn't know
how to implement it in thepractice.
It was like the first intuitionwas like, okay, I'll put
everything that is in the bookin a PowerPoint presentation,
and that's going to make itdifferent.
And then it was like, okay,this is put, everything that is
in the book in a PowerPointpresentation, and that's going
to make it different.
And then we said, okay, this isnot it either.
This looks really beautiful,this looks really diverse, but I
(03:34):
just don't know how to do it.
Then I proposed to do a triparound the world visiting these
alternative and innovativeeducational centers with the
camera, interviewing thefacilitators, the students, the,
the parents, just to get to seehow they were actually doing it
in real life, so we canactually imitate it.
David Caballero (03:54):
And then, um, yeah, start doing it in a
different way yeah, yeah, andjust to bring my my path along
along loose.
Um, yeah, I was also working asa scientist, and more kind of a
scientist, uh, managingscientific projects and
collaboration and so on.
But I guess that the faster Imove up in the in the corporate
ladder, maybe I move up too sofast that he didn't get used to
(04:18):
uh power dynamics, uh egos,fights and all these type of
things which was like was likewait a minute, why, why are we
wasting so much time justreformatting powerpoint
presentations to show them toanother manager and head and and
all these little titles thatmean that are meaningless but in
a way kind of to to keep peoplethere feeling important in a
(04:39):
way or other?
So start to think about whatcan I do with my skills that can
be meaningful?
Because I didn't follow kind ofthe academic path in science,
because I wanted to do somethingthat was connected with the
real world and to do somethingthat was meaningful for society.
But now in industry I foundthat I was doing something that
was meaningful to make money notnecessarily for society, always
(04:59):
.
So I started being moreinterested into social
innovation, reading books aboutsystems change, about how to use
our skills to make the worldmore sustainable, more just and
equitable.
And then when Luth suggested itwas like a way to look at a
specific area in education, alsoin social innovation.
In each country that we went, wepretty much look for the hubs
(05:22):
for social innovation, forimpact investment, for social
startups and the hubs foreducation innovation, and little
by little these two paths mergeinto evolving education.
And even though initially for meeducation was like a completely
unknown, the more we went intothese spaces, like democratic
(05:42):
schools, self-directed learningcenters, communities of families
, I was so amazed by thepossibilities because I found
there are young people that weremore able to solve conflicts,
to peacefully, to express theirchallenges and weaknesses and
talk about them in a dialoguethat I have never seen adults
(06:03):
doing this thing, and so thatwas inspiring in a dialogue that
I have never seen adults doingthis thing, and so that was
inspiring.
But at the same time it was veryfrustrating because it was like
, wait a minute, I have justlearned that this even exists,
but most young people don't,even most families don't know
that this is even a possibility,like when we went back once in
a while to Spain, where ourfamily is and had my nephews,
(06:24):
and they were so frustrated withthe classes and I saw how they
were already put in a box ofthis is the key that is bad in
math, this is the key that iswithin that, and I was like, wow
, this is so limiting and I'm sosad that these models are not
more widespread.
So at that point, covidhappened, left us stuck in
Mexico, but for a really goodreason, because we ended up
(06:46):
loving it and still live herefive years after and made our
mission to democratize theaccess to this tool so that more
young people could have accessto them.
Luz Olid (06:56):
Yeah, and at the beginning the idea was like we
have around 170 interviews.
It was a crazy amount ofinformation that we wanted to
share and we didn't know reallyhow.
So, uh, first we did a movie,then kind of it was a long movie
that ended up being twodifferent ones, and then it was
okay.
But this, even if we sharedthis, uh, then this inspiration
(07:19):
is not enough to actually forteachers or or for facilitators
to start implementing them.
So we created another trainingcalled the Learning Expedition,
in which we put all thedifferent interviews and so on,
telling a story of an adventurethat goes from getting to know
who we are to accompanyingchildren and youth to support
(07:43):
them, to develop their autonomyand to figure out what are their
passions.
So that's more or less howEvolving Education started.
Cecilie Conrad (07:53):
It sounds like you've been collecting so much
information that it'soverwhelming and I kind of
almost want to ask an annoyingquestion.
Can you sum it up?
David Caballero (08:04):
for the listener.
So then, what to do yeah, thisis a question that we get asked
all the time and that we getcompletely puzzled because it's
like, oh my god, there's toomuch.
Cecilie Conrad (08:14):
I know I know, I know but I'm just curious
what's your answer?
David Caballero (08:20):
yeah, we spent like a full year just
synthesizing information, justanalyzing them, categorizing
them in different bits here andthere.
But maybe the best way so farthat I've got to explain this is
that we have actually evenframed it into a methodology
that we call Expedition.
That is based on explore,experience and express so with
(08:43):
the explore.
It's both inside and outside.
Luz Olid (08:46):
So explore, getting to know ourselves a lot better who
you learn best.
David Caballero (08:51):
Yeah, self-regulation.
There's a lot of that thatneeds to happen to really be
able to support young people.
And then the external part isto open up our eyes to all those
other possibilities that arethere and inspire us and show us
how it is already possible.
Like, summerhill has beenaround for more than 100 years,
many other centers as well, forlots of years, so this already
(09:12):
exists.
We don't need to reinvent thewheel.
We just need to see what's outthere and get pieces here and
there.
We don't need to replicate.
Also, we don't all need to havethe same Waldorf stamp, even
though it can be good tocommunicate with families, you
know, but you can make your ownthings.
Luz Olid (09:35):
The second, the experience part.
That's meaning that we need tomake experiments.
David Caballero (09:37):
We need to make experiments.
Yeah, I think experimenting.
Luz Olid (09:39):
Those things that move us.
Then make an experiment, Try it, Figure out if you like it, if
you don't like it, how does itgo?
And then that reiterativeprocess of okay, this didn't
work really well this time, butthen also sometimes or most of
the times it doesn't work, whichis okay, because then we need
to make peace with failure andget to understand that life is a
(09:59):
process and not that resultthat we're trying to achieve.
David Caballero (10:03):
And this is something that is really hard to
do, I think, in education andwith children, because we care
so much about them that we wantto do something that is perfect
and definitive.
But life doesn't work like thatand the world is changing all
the time.
So it's about changing themindset from perfect solution to
an experiment after another,and thinking about learning
centers and even families as akind of a community that is in a
(10:28):
continuous process ofreinvention.
And how can we set up themechanisms so we can keep on
adapting and learning andchanging along time?
And the last one of Express isthat all of this is hard, as you
probably know, and havingpeople to share the process,
with the challenges, theinsights, is super valuable.
(10:49):
Most of the people that weconnect with feel quite isolated
, feel that they are the onlyones that think this way.
When I think there's a lot ofpeople that think this way,
there's a few that are activelydriving action, there's a lot
that want this, and there aremany that, as soon as they know
that this is a possibility, wantto jump in.
So it's about keeping thecommunication going, creating a
(11:11):
space.
It's like I think you've gotsome of these circles as well
for parents, for instance, toshare, so that we feel less
alone and we can reflect on thatprocess collectively.
Luz Olid (11:22):
And it's also about creating relationships based on
trust and that community thatkeeps building and then we keep
growing and and evolving alltogether.
So, yeah, those parts ofgetting to know who you are,
then getting to understand theworld you're living in and then
having an impact and decidingwhat you want to do.
So it's just, I feel at the endit's kind of taking small
(11:45):
experiments and then reframingit and seeing, okay, this way
will work, this not.
Okay, how do I want to thinkthis time?
What do I want to do the next?
So that that reflection isalways there and and help us to
get to know ourselves better andto to know who we want to be.
Cecilie Conrad (12:03):
I feel so that is all the things that is
impossible to do in atraditional school system.
Pretty, much well, no, but it isbecause someone else is telling
you what to do, how to do it,whether you did it good or bad,
and how to adjust to do itbetter next time, and why it was
wrong, and no one cares whatyou really.
(12:23):
No one cares what's importantto you.
No one cares why you did it ina different way.
We even took that out.
Now the exceptionally good,creative, innovative way of
solving a problem is out of theequation at this point.
That was part of the equationwhen I was educated.
You could get gold star forthat, for trying new ways.
(12:44):
But that's out now.
So getting to know who you areand exploring and and and
experimenting and and failingand then trying again it's off
the table.
So now I'm just curious exactlywho are you working with?
David Caballero (12:59):
because inside you know it's not an option so
we started being very idealisticand wanted to change the
education system and and how toreach teachers and principals
and so on.
But we found exactly whatyou're mentioning, that this
massive resistance, uh, even afunny story.
Luz Olid (13:18):
we even went to uh, we were to a nun's school and what
a shock.
Jesper Conrad (13:27):
I thought we were going to get burned like
witches.
David Caballero (13:31):
And we put there one of our films which is
called Killing Curiosity andit's talking about all the
problems in the educationalsystem in 15 minutes.
So we started with that and thenwe could see like the fire on
the ice, like get these peopleaway from here.
No, but for real, we work withlots of teachers.
Actually there's a lot ofmotivation.
I mean, teaching is a veryvocational profession.
(13:53):
Lots of people get in itbecause they really care about
children and they want to dothings differently.
So when you open up thepossibility for instance Mexico
we got last year a partnershipwith one of the government
states to train a few of theirteachers and we could see that
massive transition because therewasn't an awareness even of the
(14:14):
problems of the educationalassistance.
They were just trying to fixreally tiny things within that
monolithic system.
When we open up hey, why don'twe do student assemblies?
When they select how they wantto develop the projects there's
actually a lot of flexibilitywithin established structures.
That is not leveraged out ofconformity, fear, wanting to do
(14:41):
the minimum or just lack ofawareness, like in Spain, for
instance.
Recently they opened some hourswithin the school calendar that
are open for experimentation,and then teachers complained
that they weren't given acurriculum.
So they designed a curriculumfor it, which is insane, but it
was just out of lack ofawareness of what could be done
(15:02):
with that hour.
Luz Olid (15:03):
That could be a conflict resolution circle or
something way more meaningful Ifeel that what is missing is the
inspiration and, like themindset, because, as we, we have
never seen or experiences,experience, other ways of
teaching and learning.
So we keep repeating what wesaw, but then when we, when you
have a space with other teachers, that they are telling you that
we kind of find.
(15:23):
What do we have in common?
Everyone wants the best forchildren, everyone wants to
support and to develop theirpassions, but then all that
happens in the traditionalsystem is not working.
Then, when they see differentpossibilities, they are like
wait one second and then they, Isee the creativity, I'm going
to try this thing and I'm goingto try this thing and I'm gonna
(15:45):
try this other thing.
But there is so much uh, self,uh, I don't know self-awareness
and so like being really, reallybrave to try things, I think
that that's one of the hardestthings to do to just break that
barrier of this is how alwayshave been done.
Now I have the possibility todo it in a different way, but
(16:07):
then when they have a communitywhere they can share that, I
feel that there is a little bitmore space to start trying.
And then kids and youth theysurprise you because once that
you gave them the possibility,things happen and then you see
the potential and then theystart doing other small
experiments.
So I feel it comes a lot fromfear, but then having a
(16:28):
community which is alignedreally helps to Coming back to
your question, cecile.
David Caballero (16:34):
So we do work with teachers.
Maybe it's a fourth of thepeople that we work with.
Another fourth are families whosee what we're doing Like, ah,
what tools can I integrate in myhomeschooling or unschooling
practice?
Some of another fourth will bepeople from those families that
decide to run their owncommunity or they want to open a
(16:55):
school, and then they leveragemany of these methodologies.
And the other fourth are peoplethat already have alternative
schools and want to train theirfacilitators and then we provide
the training.
So at the end it's a reallydiverse mix which is not so
common, I think, because we kindof host conversations and
training sessions where there'speople in conventional schools
(17:18):
and schooling families andfacilitators in Montessori
school.
So you know, it's very diverseperspective, but then through
questions and conversationseveryone can learn from one
another.
Jesper Conrad (17:28):
Yeah, but the work you're doing reminds me of
some of the work andorganization I worked for.
They are called Gaia Educationand what they do is that they
had collected the knowledgecreated in ecovillages over the
last 40, 50 years, becauseecovillages are kind of like
(17:49):
small.
They call them livinglaboratories because they often
create a project document.
It figure out what's going on,and it sounds like this is what
you have been doing and aredoing for alternative education
saying who are out there, whichkind of different styles are out
there and what have they tried.
(18:10):
Yeah, I, standing on the sideof an unschooling parent.
Our kids haven't been to school.
Our oldest were in a school,which is like a reformist, were
in a Frenet school, which islike a reformist.
You probably know, I kind oflook at the whole standard
school system and, as I said inthe start, I have just given up
(18:33):
on it.
So I'm happy that someone istrying to show that there are
options, because I don't believeeveryone will unschool, that it
fits for all families and thatpeople will do it.
Everyone will unschool, that itfits for all families and that
people will do it, but I wouldlove to see some of the
knowledge that come from themontessori, from the waldorf,
from the way on schooling, fromall these different schools, way
(18:58):
of trying education to get outthere and be tried and hopefully
get into the system.
But maybe I have given up onthe system.
Do you think there will come aslow evolution in it?
David Caballero (19:16):
Well, I think it has already changed a lot
right A long time and it willkeep changing, like now.
If you look at the globalrecommendations of UNESCO, the
European Union, they all talkabout lifelong learning, agency
critical thinking as being topone and two skills and
competencies for young peoplethat need to be developed.
(19:37):
The problem is how to cascadethat down to the real learning
spaces where the huge majorityof children are, and for that
there are things happening likeproject-based learning.
Now is quite common in manyschools, for instance, as a term
.
There might be different waysof actually how to implement it,
and many of them are stillquite narrow.
(19:57):
Others are a little bit moreopen.
But yeah, I mean, our goal ishow to make this possible for
more children.
More young people have accessto it.
One of the ways is trying tochange established schools,
which, for us, is the hardestthing.
So there we're mostly focusedon building awareness through
our documentary films and onlinecontents and so on, which are
(20:20):
communicated in a way that takesyou through a journey of
awareness, rather thanconfrontation straight away and
then rejection, while most ofour support systems, trainings
and so on are aiming are thepioneers and early adopters, so
people that are already, theirvalues are already aligned with
this shift and what they'relooking at for the tools and the
(20:42):
ecosystem to create newlearning spaces or to grow the
ones they have.
So that, yeah, we can make.
If you know about the change, Idon't know if it's a change
curve or how it is, but there'slike pioneers, early adopters,
then early followers, latefollowers and laggards.
So we're mostly focused on thebeginning of that curve learning
(21:05):
from the pioneers, sharing thatwith the early adopters,
creating awareness for the earlyfollowers so that we can move
that bell curve forward.
Luz Olid (21:15):
But also I guess that when at the beginning that we
tried to go to the schools andit was such a confrontation, I
guess that is because if we gothe same way of the things that
you are doing is bad and thenimposing a different way that is
exactly the same that thetraditional system is doing, so
(21:36):
we cannot do that.
Then how can we haveconversations in which there is
a little bit more space to tothink about new things?
So like, at the end it's peoplethat is curious to have
something inside them that tellsthem this is not right, I want
to do it in a different way.
Um, I feel that those are theones that are happy to to give
it a try, the ones that arecompletely focused on not.
(21:59):
This is like this.
Then there is not much we cando with them.
David Caballero (22:04):
It also happens the other way.
By the way, like in ourcommunities, we have got
unschooling families thatcompletely refuse the use of any
books or learning materials.
Everything needs to be 100%driven by young people and in
these conversations and dynamicssometimes they learn from a
teacher in a conventional school.
There are some cool resourcesthat are interested to trigger
(22:27):
conversations or just to presentoptions to children.
So there's also a thing thatcross-pollinization, because one
of the things I have perceivedin this environment of
alternative education ispolarization.
Well, it's happening everywherein the world, polarization and
kind of coming into theseinformation bubbles where we
(22:47):
just get things that reinforceour existing views and we're
trying to break that a littlebit so we can have conversation
from one another, still havingdifferent opinions and decisions
in our life, but being open tolearn from other people as well.
Cecilie Conrad (23:04):
But I still think I mean I spray what you're
doing.
I just still think that there'ssomething about the school
system and most cultures thatit's ancient.
We came up with the idea long,long time ago and it's
government run.
There is politics behind it.
(23:26):
Some version of democracy putssome people in power to decide a
curriculum, and most of theseschool systems these days
they're measuring stick as thepiece of test, so they have the
(23:46):
whole.
You know, how do we performrelative to the piece of test?
So I'm just thinking I have alot of respect for school
teachers.
I know that they work withpassion because they want to be
around children, young peopleand and make their lives better,
but they work inside a systemthat makes it very, very hard to
(24:09):
wiggle at all.
And I'm just wondering if thereis a way, if there even is a
way where we can approach thetop of the problem, you know, or
the root, you could call it.
We need to get rid of theircurriculum, we need to get rid
(24:30):
of the pizza test, otherwisewe're not really, you know,
going this is really deep, likethe, the.
Luz Olid (24:37):
The root of the problem is not only the
curriculum.
It's like the the structure ofthe system is based on a
hierarchy, like society is basedon a hierarchy.
The competition is the base ofcapitalism, progress and results
.
It's like um, we have to keepmore and more so once that you
start questioning theeducational system, that's.
David Caballero (24:57):
That's when you end up questioning the whole,
the whole system, and you'rerunning away we tend to say that
once you question how you learn, you end up questioning how you
live and you start makingdifferent, different decisions.
No, like I don't know, justsharing from our own personal
experience.
We started questioning why dowe shit into clean water, so now
we have a dry toilet?
(25:19):
Or why do we eat things thatare associated with cancer, so
we stop eating processed meatsand red meats, things like that.
Cecilie Conrad (25:27):
Which is also actually, if you think about it
for just one second, I hadcancer.
I beat cancer 14 years ago.
I cannot recommend it.
I'd say avoid it.
David Caballero (25:48):
That was not fun years ago.
I cannot recommend it.
I'd say avoid it.
Once you start questioning theestablished structures of
society, of learning, you go toto living and instead changing a
lot of things in in your life.
Like you're questioning as wellwhy do we have to live always
in the same place, why yourfamily cannot get experiences
from around the world?
Um, and you start makingdecisions in that direction.
But that's a massive change,like at the moment.
We know that there areorganizations trying to
influence policies and turningschools into more democratic
(26:10):
spaces.
There are advancements in thatarea.
We are trying to work at thehuman level.
We think that even if youchange the curriculum I
mentioned before some of thechange, political changes in
spain, for instance, or inmexico, um, even changing those
things with the same people withthe same mindset, nothing
changes at the end.
(26:30):
Even if you say, oh, let's alluse the circle, let's all use a
sociocratic decision making, andif you got a hierarchical,
conventional teacher in front ofthat room, it's not going to be
a horizontal decision-makingtool, it's just no one is going
to speak.
So we're trying to work fromthe inside.
Luz Olid (26:48):
Yeah, it's like, for example, mindfulness.
Now a lot of people are tryingto introduce mindfulness in the
classroom and then some kidsshare with us what mindfulness
was like.
Oh my God, we have mindfulnesslike something horrible, because
they are like, no, you have tosit down and not move, and then
maybe that's not the best way totrain mindfulness with kids.
(27:10):
Maybe we can do a movementmeditation, maybe there are
other things that we can do thatare more suitable.
So, yeah, the mindset I find isthe most challenging, because
we need people to questionthings and start taking their
own decisions and things thatthey feel aligned with, but then
not that many people have eventhe possibility to explore what
(27:32):
they think or what they want tobelieve.
David Caballero (27:35):
And building trust.
I think that's the other corething.
Like many of these decisionsare driven out of fear being
alone in the world and wantinggovernment to supply all the
structures, and being afraid ofwhat is going to happen with my
children in the future.
They need all the titles and aPhD, and all of this because the
world is uncertain.
And it's all this driven byfear Scarcity.
Luz Olid (28:00):
Scarcity uncertainty.
David Caballero (28:03):
So that's a lot of what we start working on
what's happening inside ofpeople, so that these tools and
methodologies can work.
Jesper Conrad (28:18):
Because otherwise they're pretty empty if we
don't do the internal work.
In your free ebook youmentioned in the start of it the
origin of the school system andmaybe many people don't know
the origin of the compulsoryschool system, so if you could
explain about that.
But also I wanted to take alittle talk about how long time
(28:43):
have this experiment actuallybeen going on of the compulsory
school system?
It feels like a lifetime forfor many of us, but it's
actually not that longhistorical so.
So if you mention, uh, what youwrote about in your e-book
around it, yeah, it's somethinglike 200 years, more or less.
David Caballero (29:04):
It's what the schooling system has been around
200 years within humanexistence.
So if we think about when westarted, human started,
agriculture was something like15,000 years ago.
So that's from agriculture, soit's really a really small time
(29:24):
frame to derive from that that.
This is the way human beingslearn and there's a structure
that has been set in place forthe last 200 years and how it
was started.
Compulsory primary educationstarted in Prussia before it was
called Russia after the FirstWorld War, to have a better
trained army.
In some of the battles thesoldiers back up and they run
(29:49):
away.
They didn't like what they sawand then they thought we need to
start from childhood.
We need to establish a systemwhere we train young people to
be obedient, to follow orderswithout questioning them.
And there is as well whenknowledge was breaking down into
subjects.
Up to that point, there wasn'tanything as a math class.
(30:11):
Maybe novels went to some sortof priest or something like this
, where they talk aboutphilosophy and nature and a lot
of things that were connected.
This is when, as well, subjectswere created, the kind of the
timetable structure of, of ofprimary schools, then secondary
schools and so on follow withindustrial revolution and the.
(30:33):
The way universities work waslater on in the us um I think
it's called um, I don't remembernow, but it was like a group of
10 men in the US during theIndustrial Revolution that
decided how the preparatorysystem for high school needed to
be for people to be ready tothen take on a specialized
training at universities to fitinto the works that they were
(30:56):
requiring at that point.
And from that point in historywe have just been tweaking that
kind of within that samestructure, 200 years old.
We are just making smallmodifications.
Oh, let's change the name ofthe subject, or rather than one
hour, let's make it 45 minutesor one hour and a half the time
(31:17):
of the break one hour, not 30minutes.
Or the structure of the class,like oh, now sitting in rows
instead of um circle, whicheverreally small changes, but you
can see many of these, evenarmy-like um instruction in the
ways that rows are made in manycountries, kind of raising the
flag, singing the anthem, aremany things, many things, things
(31:38):
to make us feel more patriotic.
In fact, schools have been usedas a method for nation building
around the world.
Well, actually, people shouldknow as well about residential
schools and how it was shifted.
Now from the origins of powerin the world in the West, europe
(32:03):
and the US, and now we moveinto a world where those powers
are colonizing other countries.
Schooling was a tool used todominate other countries as well
.
In India, for instance, theBritish delegates set up the
schooling system and literallythe quote was they can be brown
on the outside, but we need themto behave as if they were white
(32:27):
on the inside, and that was thereason to be for the schooling
system that was implemented inIndia residential school system
or in Australia, children weretaken away from their families
to civilize them, to remove anyelements of their culture, their
language, and that's one of thepopulations in the world that
(32:48):
right now has the highest ratesof suicide, drug addiction and
lots of other problems becauseof the massive destruction that
was done to their own identityand in places like Mexico, where
we live now, it was a way fornation building.
So after independence even so itwas it was already pretty much
a Spanish people that remain inMexico in power just now.
(33:11):
They call themselves Mexicans,but it's still the power was in
the same hands, and they useschooling as a way as well to to
unite people, because in theschools in Mexico, even though
there are lots of nativelanguages, none of them are
talked.
The only language that istalked is Spanish.
Everyone sings the anthem,Everyone learns about the heroes
(33:31):
of the revolution, which wereagain the same Spanish people
fighting against other Spanishpeople that went back to Spain,
all of these things.
So it's really been used as anelement of domination around the
world.
Luz Olid (33:45):
Yeah, it's a colonization method to remove
the identities and the differentcultures.
It's removing diversity, whichis craziness, because one of the
things that I really value isthe whole diversity of the world
and, for example, languages notwhich define how we like
different ways of thinking.
It was something like fivepercent of the population were
(34:06):
speaking 90, like the 98 percentof the different languages,
which is like wow, massiverestriction.
No, like now really few peoplehave different ways of seeing
the world and then the rest iskind of standardized.
Cecilie Conrad (34:25):
So that's craziness yeah, it is a crazy
story.
It's.
It's also.
It's just complicated.
We are just with our threeteenagers that still live at
home studying at the moment thehistory of Denmark and Greenland
.
We're Danish and Greenland ispart of our country and it's on
(34:54):
the table at the moment becauseof the American government's
interest.
So we felt we need to knowwhat's going on with that,
because we don't know.
Greenland is very far away fromthe rest of Denmark and it's a
different language, a differentculture and what really happened
and the more I dive into it,it's really really complicated.
(35:21):
Yes, yes, schooling and languagestandardization.
It was a tool of suppressionand and was hierarchically
leveled, so one group is betterthan another group.
But even so, it wasn't allblack.
(35:41):
There was some white there aswell.
There was some good intentiongoing on and there was something
.
I mean, I'm no professor of thisarea, but I think to some
extent, maybe 100 years ago, itwas true that education, even
(36:02):
standardized education, gave youbetter options in life and
removed you from children dyingbefore the age of two and
starvation and things that maybeactually needed something,
(36:22):
actually needed something, andwas it fair that one group had
that and the other group didn'thave it Now that we had met each
other.
I mean, we had met each other.
The British were in Australiaand the Danes were in Greenland,
and some things were not fair,and, of course, a lot of it
happened because of greed andbecause of a lot of, I don't
know, imperialistic ideas, butsome of it happened out of
(36:45):
compassion and a want to help,and maybe at some point it was
true that education was thesavior keeping up with history.
Now, if I can avoid talkingabout imperialism because I
think it's too complicated, Ihave nothing smart, I think, to
(37:06):
say about it, except let's talkabout, let's at least introduce
the idea of nuance.
But I think now, in 2025, itshould be well established that
we don't need to sit down afive-year-old to shut up and
listen for six, eight hours aday in order for them to learn
(37:28):
to read.
Leave them alone and they'lllearn to read.
Let them play Minecraft andthey will read within a month,
or whatever they want to do.
We should know by now, butsomehow we don't.
And why don't we?
Why do we keep going with thisoutdated system?
(37:50):
So many other things are beingchanged quickly.
Luz Olid (37:59):
But, yes, we just keep doing it.
We think that success in lifedepends on that, that you do
well in life.
It depends that you go toschool.
There is this definition ofwhat you have to do in order to
be successful.
David Caballero (38:13):
And also I feel like we're talking about a
repressed population, children,Repression towards black people.
In the US, it took a long timefrom the black people fighting
for it for women to get theirvotes.
It was more or less at the sametime.
It took a long time for women'sdemonstrations to be able to
(38:33):
vote and be considered fullhuman beings.
This is just insane.
But this is recent history.
Now we're talking about arepressed population that is
tiny and that even less kind ofphysical power, less voice to be
able to express what they need,and where everyone else feels
that we know better than them.
(38:54):
So how can we listen to theirvoice?
How can we let them choose whatthey want to learn?
So it's a massive questioningof how repression affects
different repressed populations.
Luz Olid (39:07):
It's also happening with aging, like when people get
old and then they go out of thesystem of working, then they
are also not considered enough.
So, pretty much like peoplethat are working, those have a
voice, I'll say, well, womenstill are.
There is a lot of things thatthat still need to be done in
(39:30):
terms to reach that equality,but, yeah, that that's a reality
.
Like not, there is nohorizontal structures in which
we listen to everyone.
David Caballero (39:39):
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of challenges, no
challenges.
I think the element ofrepression, the element of
change in society, is reallyhard.
The element of the impact ofchanges in education takes
decades in being seen whatthey're doing with children
today.
So any political change ishardly going to be beneficial
(40:02):
for the political party in powerthat day or those four years
they're not going to see.
Probably they will see evennegative statistics if they use
the same statistics, if theydon't change what they're
measuring in the short term.
Luz Olid (40:20):
So yeah, that's a lot.
I guess another thing is thatit really depends on the country
and the situation, because, forexample, we have one of the
people that is training with us.
She's from Sierra Leone and shewas telling me the situation
and when I was telling her abouteducation, children need to be
self-directed, they need to havethe possibilities to choose and
so on, and she was like Luzluthier, that's not like for
(40:44):
women here going to education,like having education means that
they are not gonna get pregnantand they are gonna have the
possibility to do somethingdifferent in their lives rather
than just to serve the men, andfor me that was like shit that's
.
It is like we have to have inmind that it's really
independent, depending on thecountry and the situation that
(41:05):
people is, the needs and whateducation is going to do for you
.
It's going to be different.
David Caballero (41:11):
And even if we leave aside the complexity of
the educational systems and wethink about those early pioneers
, the people that are creatingnew learning centers that are
horizontal, democratic,self-directed they are
struggling a lot to findfamilies that understand what
they're talking about.
Their families aren't completelyscared of anything that is new,
(41:31):
anything that is different.
So that's one of the key thingsthat we work with them is how to
communicate this to people thathave never heard about Because,
yes, you want the best for yourchildren.
That have never heard about.
Because, yes, you want the bestfor your children, but how do
you know that that is the bestwhen everything that you have
seen through all your life andyour father's and mother's life
was a standardized schooling andthat was a way to success and
(41:52):
the way you got the job and thesalary you got.
Now, now you got children andyou're going to do something
completely different with what'sthe arguments that I got to
convince myself as a parent andwith people that are creating
new learning centers.
It's a long journey forfamilies to get this different
view and the different way inwhich they need to also
(42:14):
integrate in these learningcenters and the way they relate
with their own children, becauseusually it doesn't work, or or
I mean ideally.
We want a change both in thefamilies and in the learning
centers, not that they gocompletely separate and we got
full hierarchy on one side andnone in the other there's need
to be coherence.
Luz Olid (42:33):
If not, we are going to just but everybody's gonna
get completely crazy like whatwas the?
That's happening yeah, what'shappening there?
Jesper Conrad (42:41):
but for people out there who are listening and
maybe are not all the way overwhere we are and they're like,
oh, we want to homeschool and wewant to unschool, but where
they're interested inalternative education, how do
they find these learning centers?
Because, and how do they choose?
(43:02):
Because it's an open worldwhere you don't know what's
going on and, as you say, canyou trust them, do you dare
trust them, or do you just putyour kids into the normal school
and it's like that was good forme, that must be good for them
yeah, there what I can say.
David Caballero (43:22):
Well, how to find them.
Luckily, there are more andmore of these networks with
online maps where you can findthese centers.
Still, they're not very updated.
I guess lack of funding is oneof the things but there are many
of these communities.
Some of them might be part ofecovill, or or they are
connected with other culturalinitiatives, and that's how you
(43:44):
end up finding that nearby you,there are some things going on,
uh, online of course as wellsocial media and so on the
congress is also like ibex oreodex or I don't know,
ecoversities alliance.
Luz Olid (43:56):
So there are there are many networks.
No, I also.
So there are many networks thatyou can tap in and check what
things are around you.
David Caballero (44:06):
And then, once you find something, how to know
whether it's good for you or not.
I think that's a process ofagain experimentation, of going
there, spending some time, yourchildren as well kind of trying
to contribute and being anactive member of that community.
Because learning centers thatare starting, or alternative
(44:28):
learning centers I think theyare in this very difficult
balance between adhering totheir values and system.
Imagine you set up an agilelearning center that is
self-directed we got Kanban andthis and that to manage things
but then you also got thefamilies requests and the family
circle.
When there are people thatarrive and say, hey, I found
(44:51):
this nice software for learninghow to read and write or to do
math, why don't you integrate itas an option for the children
or something?
So there's this continuoustension from what the founders
set up as the basis of thestructure and everything.
That is all the requests andand questions that are coming
(45:11):
from the families on a dailybasis, and the children as well
will have their own interests.
And now I want some toolsbecause I want to be something
where those resources come from.
Jesper Conrad (45:21):
So you know so I'm trying to find a way to
round off.
Cecilie Conrad (45:24):
There's a lot to talk about.
That's the problem.
Jesper Conrad (45:27):
Yeah, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (45:27):
Yeah.
Luz Olid (45:33):
It's life.
David Caballero (45:34):
Yeah, I think it's yeah, exactly, this is
living.
This is living and it'schanging and adaptation.
It's not like I'm going gonnafind the perfect solution and
this will be forever.
No, it's a, it's a nice, it'sand it's fun as well.
It can be fun.
I think it's also switching alittle bit, that that it can be
fun to reinvent our lives andway of learning and interacting
with one another.
And it's really about, I think,at the core of this is learning
(45:57):
to live in community and to ina different way of relating in a
different way that we are notused to, because we're used to
to paying for services, uh, orto the government supplying
services like schooling, butbeing part of a learning
community and activelycontributing to end to each and
being willing to be flexible andgive up some things.
Luz Olid (46:18):
We're going out of our comfort zone, so it's, it's a
lot of fun, but then we thatthat, that fear of oh no, this
is scary, and then then we getthe stack that doesn't allow us
to keep growing and and evolving.
So, yeah, it's kind of trusting, I guess that go.
It goes back to something thatI kind of think that we miss at
(46:39):
school, like trusting ourselves.
Like if we trust ourselves andwe have the ability to think
that I can do whichever thing Idecide to do and I have my
autonomy and I belong to thisgroup, then everything is
possible.
But then if I don't trustmyself and if I'm scared, if I
am all the time being underattack, then there's not going
to be flexibility ofpossibilities of doing pretty
(47:01):
much anything.
But then being in that safespace, I think is essential.
David Caballero (47:07):
And something that we're just starting a new
project on sustainable livingand in the first meeting that we
had with our new collaborators,we told them no one knows the
world, how the world is.
The only thing that we see isour own perception.
So the normal thing is going tobe that we don't understand
each other and we end up intoconflict.
So let's set up structures thatallow us to uncover those
(47:31):
different perceptions and tosolve conflicts before they
mount into something bigger.
Let's make sure that every week, we have one hour to talk about
things that we feeluncomfortable with, so that we
can work on them.
But this is something new,because we have never done it.
They have never done it either,so it's about being open to
(47:51):
these difficult conversations.
Luz Olid (47:53):
Yeah, and play.
Jesper Conrad (47:55):
Yeah, and play For people out there who want to
know more about your research.
Maybe watch some of the moviesor download your free ebook.
Where do they find you andwhere should they start?
David Caballero (48:07):
Yeah, evolvingeducationorg.
That's our website.
Over there you got the links tothe ebook and our social media
are called the same Facebook,Instagram and YouTube Evolving
Education.
And yeah, you're welcome tostart getting engaged there and
in the different communitiesthat we manage and we're.
We're now hosting as well, likea webinar series called voices
(48:28):
of change.
Just once a month, let's saythis is what you do, guys, every
week.
It's a lot of work yeah, thankyou.
Jesper Conrad (48:40):
It was super inspiring and I will go and
check out some of the videos youmade.
I look forward to it.
Thanks a lot for your time.
David Caballero (48:47):
Thank you, it's a pleasure.
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