116: Jacob Nordby | Rethinking Freedom: Purpose, Ritual, and the Value of Being - Self Directed

Episode Transcript
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Jesper Conrad (00:00):
Today we're together with Jacob Nordby and,
first of all, super good to seeyou again, jacob.
How have you been since lasttime?

Jacob Nordby (00:08):
Oh, it's so good to see both of you too, and I've
been well.
I've had some big changes in myworld and I feel really honored
to be invited back.
Thanks for having me back on.

It is 15 episodes since the last one and I think
that if people haven't heard it,I recommend you go back.
It's episode 101, and it was inour world a chat in December
and now it is April and we arein wonderful Austria, in our
world, visiting a world schoolpop-up where our teens are out

(00:43):
roaming with the other teensthat also travel full time and
are enjoying life.
So that's it's pretty awesome.
It is.

Yeah, so I've never been to Austria, I've only
been to Spain and Europe.
But have you spent time inAustria before?

Cecilie Conrad (01:00):
Not really no, no.
I did as a teenager.

Yeah, it is one of Europe's most expensive
countries, so it's one of thosethat is good to avoid if you're
traveling a lot.
But otherwise it is.
I mean, it's green, it'sbeautiful.
There's a lot of art here inVienna, yeah.
But, jacob, one of the things Iwanted to talk with you about

(01:28):
was freedom, and when I sayfreedom, what comes to your mind
?

Well, as you know, of course, I live in America
and America has long heldfreedom as one of its top values
, and so I've done a lot ofthinking about that over the
last couple of years very deeply.
What is freedom?
I think it's interesting.
There's this idea of free will.

(01:58):
Of course that's a pretty toplevel sort of a concept, but I
think it filters down into more,you know, mundane, everyday
kinds of things as well.
But what's interesting to me,jesper, is that a lot of people
assume that freedom means theability to do whatever they want
.

(02:18):
The trouble I have with some ofthese things is that we're
learning more and more that mostof what we think and believe
and most of the reactions wehave, you know, or responses to
opportunities or stimulus, mostof these things are happening
pretty cognitively.
We're most of the time makingdecisions based on past

(02:42):
experiences and emotions, andthen we use our logical mind,
our prefrontal cortex, to jumpin and justify those, those
actions or those decisions.
And what's interesting is,researchers have found that this
emotional decision-making, andthen logical reinforcement of it

(03:03):
, is even more marked in thosewho consider themselves to be
radical free thinkers, highlyindividualistic and highly
intellectual, and so it'sinteresting that a lot of them
will say emotion shouldn't comeinto this, but they're actually
being driven by emotions,unconsciously, even more so than
folks who don't considerthemselves to be so intellectual
.
That's a really long way towalk around the barn, but I

(03:26):
think that the question what isfreedom?
I think it's so crucial becauseI feel like a lot of us don't
have as much access to it as wethink we do.

Do you have a link for the research you just
mentioned?

I don't.
I should look it up and see ifI can send it to you.
That's a good question.

I don't.
I should look it up and see ifI can send it to you.
That's a good question.
Thank you, Because it'sinteresting and I think I would
like to read it to find outwhat's behind the scenes there.

Yeah, I feel like I pulled some of this from
Robert Cialdani's book Influencethe five pillars of whatever
that one was.
Yeah, I feel like that wassomewhat in there.
Maybe part of it was comingfrom Anton Wilson's Robert Anton
Wilson's book Prometheus Rising.
But yeah, I think that's a goodquestion.
I'll look that up.

I was just thinking.
We talk a lot about freedom inour family and well, the basic
definition of freedom is thefreedom to do whatever you want
to do, maybe restricted by notrestricting anyone else's
freedom.
For the game to be fair, um,right, but recently I've been

(04:40):
thinking about how, maybe, yeah,maybe, health is an interesting
word to put into that equation.
And I say that now because yousaid well, is it really a free
choice?
Are you just being pushedaround by things and then you

(05:01):
justify it after, uh, and youcall it freedom, but actually
you're responsive.
So a healthy mind would be amore clear mind, right?
In my opinion, a healthy mindcan navigate this and know I
have an emotional response and II know I have it and I am

(05:24):
affected by this, that and theother.
I know what's in my backpack, Iknow my personality, I know
what I've just seen on tv, Iknow my basic mood these days
and within that whole framework,I can work with my decision
making and that would give methat freedom.

(05:48):
But also, I mean I'm a littletired of the word freedom, to be
honest.
Maybe it's authenticity, no,but I mean what does it really
mean?
It's, it's a little bit.
Yeah.
I don't know what it tastes like, but authenticity, I would even
say reality, can we ventureinto that?
It might be more dangerous thanfreedom, though, to try to

(06:11):
define that one.
But I just think, if we thinkabout health, do I have a
healthy mind?
Do I have a clear?
Does it make sense?
Am I babbling?

Not at all A little bit.

Maybe I should just drink my coffee.
Am I babbling?
Not at all.
A little bit.

Maybe I should just drink my coffee.
No, no, what's interesting isand I didn't bring up that point
about you know how much of ourconscious, what we call
conscious movement or decisionmaking, you know, is actually
driven by the unconscious as asort of fatalistic thing.
I think that we, we have toearn the capacity for greater

(06:47):
and greater free will andtherefore greater freedom.
So to me it's like potential.
Yes, we all have the potentialof free will, but unless we do
the hard work of what you justsaid, cecily, what's in my
backpack?
Who am I?
The self-discovery.
The more that we go throughthat process, I feel that that
then becomes more clear.

(07:08):
In the moment when I'm being,you know, bombarded with
stimulus, it becomes more clearthat, oh, I need to actually
take a step back.
And there's that space betweenstimulus and response.
You know that.
Who was that Viktor Frankltalked about?
And in that space, that's whereour power to choose lies.

(07:28):
And so to me, it's really apractice.
Freedom for me is really apractice, and it has little to
do with my externalcircumstances, you know, it's
more of a who will I be in theface of this moment, no matter
whether the moment ispleasurable or the moment is
painful.
Who will I be in this moment,of this moment, no matter
whether?

the moment is pleasurable or the moment is
painful.
Who will I be in this moment?
You know?
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
It's quite interesting torealize that it's the
introspection that gives you thefreedom and that whatever
restraints you think you have onthe outside, restraints you

(08:10):
think you have on the outsideare not really relevant.
It's not about how trapped youfeel by your job or your
mortgage or the number of kidsyou happen to put into this
world, and now it's yourproblems.
Take care of them, whatever.
Whatever situation you gotyourself entangled in, because
what really restrains you fromfreedom and the benefits of
freedom, which we should get tolater, um, what really restrains

(08:34):
you is your own mindset, yourown attitude to the situation,
how.
It's not about what's going on,it's about how you take it.
Right.
I've said that so many times tomy children.
They get so annoyed.
I start the sentence andthey're like shut up mom.
This is objectively annoying,and it's not about how I take it

(08:59):
.
It is annoying.

So and I know you all have read this but it feels
so relevant uh, in victorfrankel's man's search for
meaning, the last of humanfreedoms, to choose one's
attitude in any given set ofcircumstances, to choose one's
own way.
And there were always choicesto make.
And he goes on um your innerfreedom, which which determined

(09:26):
whether or not you become theplaything to circumstance,
renouncing freedom and dignity.
And he goes on from there.
I read man's search for meaningwhen I was going through this
time of having been turnedupside down, uh, in life, and I
felt very unfree in so many ways.
I mean, all my money was gone,the career I'd been part of was
gone.
I was feeling really oppressedby life, you know, and I read

(09:49):
that book and I had had toreduce my lifestyle so
dramatically and all thesethings just felt like I was
trapped.
Um, I remember reading thatbook and going, oh my God, I
feel like I'm at the bare wireof existence right now.
But Viktor Frankl is writingthis and lived through an

(10:09):
experience that was sodrastically, even more to the
core of survival, in ways Idon't want to even imagine, and
that was a real call to me tosay, yeah, we still have the
freedom to choose in everymoment.

that is the freedom and that that book
actually was the one that beganto draw me back into life, being
willing to re-engage, you knowthe reason I find freedom
interesting is that when we lookat parenting and talk with
other people and they look athow we live, then one of the

(10:45):
first thing that people noticeis, of course, oh, you are
full-time travelers.
That must be a wild freedom,and what can you do?
And what are you doing with thekids?
And all these dialogues we havebut often the dialogue ends up
with the choices we have made isto free ourselves from you can

(11:07):
say, societal, inflicted norms,the fact that if you have your
children in a public school, youprobably have them there for
the main period of their time,which means that you live in a
certain place from a period ofyour life, et cetera, et cetera.
And when we have stepped awayfrom these norms of how you live

(11:30):
, then so many things come up inthe air and we need to reflect
on them.
And in our life it ended upwith us asking ourselves but do
we need to live here?
Just because we started here,chosen a school, choose an area
and all this, and in the end Iwent to work and the rest of the

(11:51):
family could be where theywanted, but we were placed in a
certain area because I had myday-to-day work and and then we
figured out how to make thatinto an online business so we
could travel more freely.
But I live now a life where Iask questions about these norms

(12:13):
of society, whereas earlier Ithought they were how you should
live.
So it reflects back to what yousaid about is it instilled in
you that you think you have afree will and you choose these
things based on your choice inthe moment?
But what comes from yourupbringing?

(12:34):
Where in in my life, I thenormal life, the life I saw
ahead of me was like find awonderful wife.
I succeeded in that, get a goodjob, nice and get some kids.
And then you, you do the thingsyou know, but at the same time,
there was this dreaming ofsomething more in life.

(12:55):
And now we are here and, havingbeen traveled for seven years
and are still going on, and Imaybe it's the turning 15
november, I don't know, but I'mjust starting, you know, to ask
myself these questions aboutwhat's next.
Is there more freedom toexplore?
Is it the inner freedom?

(13:16):
Where am I going?

yeah, yeah, you know, while you were talking,
and you both have mentionedraising kids, and I just admire
so much your willingness toexpose your family to anomalous
experiences of life, likeoutside of the.
This is the automatic way thatwe live and this is what equals

(13:40):
success and all of that.
And you know what's interestingto me about freedom?
I live in this country, thisAmerica that has prized itself
for being the leader of the freeworld, and what is interesting
to me is the idea of freedom haslargely supplanted the actual
experience of it here, and Ithink that's a pretty difficult

(14:03):
reality for a lot of people tocome to.
And I'm not speaking about thisin some gloomy sense.
It's just really interesting tobe living through a time when,
when a concept has to give wayto what is really going on, and
one thing that I find reallyinteresting is that a lot of
people feel that freedom is, Ifeel like in like in the US.

(14:25):
It's a sense of we're still avery young country in the family
of nations.
We might be a teenager at thispoint or something, and I think
there's a lot of teenage hubris,a teenage recklessness and
teenage selfishness thatpermeates the air here and gets
equated with this is freedom.

(14:45):
Don't tread on me.
And to me, some of the greatestfreedom we can ever have is the
fruit of self-discipline andrestraint.
And if we don't learn that andthat to me is what's mature
freedom, a child or a teenagermight go, freedom to me is never
having someone tell me what todo.
A mature adult asks thequestion how can I live as I

(15:10):
really long to within theframework and how can I be a
mature and responsible partnerto the world around me?
How can I contribute ratherthan how can I take, and I think
a lot of people, in thiscountry at least, have begun to
really imbibe the idea thatfreedom is taking whatever you
want and not regarding otherpeople, and to me that is not

(15:32):
freedom I like that it's a verynarrow-minded freedom and also
we talk and think and agitate alot for freedom, or at least we
used to.

One of the best questions we ever got was okay,
but then what's up with thatfreedom?
What do you want to use it for?
Interesting?
And we realized that the reasonwe talk so much about it is
that we are pretty clear on whatwe want to use our freedom on
and that our core values don'talign with the mainstream life

(16:13):
that we were supposed to live.
So we decided to find ways toarrange ourselves so that we
could do the things and be theones that we wanted to do and be
.
Yeah, and I think there's a lotof unfreedom going on in not
doing that reflection, notstopping to think about what's

(16:38):
truly important to you and whatis true to you.
How do you even understand thebalances of this life and the
reality of what's around you?
I think there is simply notenough reflection going on.
It's a lot of automated justdoing the thing.

(17:03):
We're bombarded with inputtelling us what the good life is
and we don't really stop tothink about what the good life
is.
And it's pretty obvious in ourcircle of cultures that your
culture and our culture sharethat and that we are more or
less trying to export toeveryone else, that we're not

(17:28):
thriving.
Most people in these countriesare medicated and sick, so did
we stop to think about what realthriving is and where it comes
from?
Yes, of course we did, butsomehow we got it wrong.

(17:48):
Yeah.
We set ourselves up for somemaybe comfortable life, very far
away from fear and worry, um,so that we could feel safe.

(18:08):
Yeah, and that is, of course,freedom.
It is freedom to feel safe.
There are contextual realitiesthat will stop you from let's be
real.
I mean, we can talk aboutemotions and mindset and
exploring our inner life, andyou know, but if you can't walk
the street without being shot,or if you're female and you

(18:32):
can't walk the street, end ofstory.
And or if you can't decide whoyou're marrying, or, yeah, of
course there are oppressivecultures and oppressive
situations where people areactually trapped and my heart
goes out to that, since most ofthe people who would listen to

(18:52):
this podcast are not insituations like that, and for
them it would be more about theinner world.
But the freedom has no value ifyou don't know what you're
using it for, if you don't knowwhy you need it, and and I think
, um, that is maybe the bestplace to start to think about,

(19:14):
hey, how do I get to thrive?
What is important?
What do I want to do with thislife?

well, do you mind if we rewind a minute, because
you, I felt like you saidsomething crucial when you
talked about the countries, thenations have.
We've we've created a lot morephysical safety for ourselves in
a lot of cases, and physicalabundance, and so when I think
about that, I'm I've been, I'vebeen chewing on this thought for
so many years now.

(19:43):
But maslowlow's hierarchy, youknow the triangle and at the
very base level, the shelter andfood and procreation, and you
know the things that you knoware really the kind of the
baseline of life, baseline oflife, and then, as we build
further away from that survivalline, we begin to lose

(20:06):
connection to that very simplepurpose of life, which is to be
and stay alive, you know.
So that's interesting to mebecause most of us in the
developed countries have neverreally experienced survival
level living, not really.
You know what I might call thatright now is still unthinkably

(20:28):
wealthy compared to so manyother people in this world.
And what's interesting aboutthis is and I know you all have
no doubt looked into this a lotbut when you go, look at the
indigenous cultures wherethey're still living very close
to nature, very close to theearth, purpose, having a sense
of purpose is so easilyfulfilled.
I'm going to get up, I'm goingto make sure we have wood for

(20:52):
the fire, make sure we have food, and once we've accomplished
those very basic things, now wecelebrate, we hang out, we're in
community, and to me that's avery healthy thing, and I'm not
suggesting that we should try toroll back all of the physical
safeties that we've developedover the years.

(21:12):
Some of these things are thefruits of the Industrial
Revolution.
It's like I don't think theanswer is to take those safeties
away, but the fact is many ofus struggle with a loss of a
sense of purpose in the modernworld.

Because a lot of people don't know where they
fit into the great machinecalled modern reality, you know,
but actually this is a mindsetthing to realize that life is
about living's.
It sounds so basic but it is.
It is about living and it'sit's a highly practical thing.
The first big blog that I wrotehad the subtitle title life is
first and foremost practicalbecause really what what you do

(21:58):
in this life is, you know, youget up and you need to get
dressed and you need to wash acup if you forgot to do it last
night Make the coffee and feedthe kids and make the money.
You know all these practicalthings.
They take up our hours and wheream I going with that Something

(22:19):
down the lines of being gratefulfor that?
And where am I going with thatSomething down the lines of
being grateful for that?
And this loss of purpose.
Actually it makes, if we stopto feel it, it makes most people
happy to live and to meet thesebasic things Make a safe space,

(22:40):
make a nice bed, make a goodmeal, meal, provide for your
family, shut the door, broom thefloor, take out the trash, open
the window, close it again,brush the teeth.
These basic things that areabout living, about staying

(23:00):
healthy and warm and safe.
They have this baseline ofmaking us happy.

I love that and what's interesting.
So I'm just going to peel backsome layers here for a moment in
my own life and I finished areally big project.
I think I was yeah, I hadn'tyet finished exiting when we did
our most recent episode inDecember but I really felt that
I was needing to exit a projectthat I had put a lot of my life

(23:33):
and money and effort into forthe last couple of years.
I was feeling more and more offtrack and so when I finally
made the decision to exit, itwas a pretty young company and
you know I didn't walk out withenough money to retire on or
anything like that not evenclose and so it's been
interesting.
I spent a couple of monthsreally treading water, retooling
some of the other things that Iam doing with the Institute for

(23:56):
Creative Living and the workthat I really feel from my heart
to do with people, and alsonavigating a very strange time
on earth where, where a lot ofpeople are feeling um, a lot of
people are feeling the oh my God, they're in the fight or flight
survival mode, and I wastalking with the CEO of daily OM
the other day.
They have a lot of onlinecourses and mind, body, spirit,

(24:17):
things.
And I said you know, I feel asif I'm standing by the freeway
and all the cars are driving 90miles an hour past me and
they're all on fire and I'mwaving my arms, saying you
should pull over and meditatewith me, and they're like, are
you mad?
And so I'm telling you this tosay that after a couple or three
months of, you know, havingsome time to rest and reflect

(24:38):
and all that, but also feelingvery restless and not exactly
sure of how to connect withenough income and all that, but
also feeling very restless andnot exactly sure of how to
connect with enough income, andall of that, I actually, a
couple months ago, decided tojust start driving Uber several
hours a day, and what'sfascinating about that?
Even though you know I hadenough money to survive, but it
was also like I don't know wherethe next paycheck is coming
from and all that.
So it was less about you know,driving enough to make a

(25:02):
full-time living.
I noticed that something aboutthe act of getting out there and
serving people and connectingwith them, it it took care of a
part of my brain that wasfeeling more and more anxious
about what's next.
How do I figure this out, andso, even though it's not enough
money to really live on, that'sa secondary thing for me at the
moment.

(25:22):
It's been really interesting togo.
I'm staying engaged with life,I'm not just sitting still and
perseverating over all of it,and so it's been an odd
experience of maybe a bitsurprising how much peace it's
brought me to have several hoursa day to do a thing.
I was doing it right before Icame and got on this episode

(25:43):
with you, you know, um, and manypeople might look at that and
say, oh my God, that's soembarrassing.
I've had some friends ask me ifI feel embarrassed or or hope
that I don't pick somebody up.
That I know, and I'm like,honestly, I don't care.
I don't care, um, and and youknow they said, oh my God,
that's so brave.
I'm like it's really not.
It's honestly not brave, it'sjust continuing to do the next
thing that's right in front ofme, you know.

Yeah, and creating meaningfulness in life.

I am also going to say someone needs to drive
those Ubers.
There's something wrong withthe idea of being embarrassed
about that Because the wholemachine needs to go.
I just put a teenage girl inUber yesterday.
I'm grateful for Uber and Ithink Uber is amazing and I am

(26:32):
grateful for those who willdrive the Ubers.
I think they're underpaid, butwhatever.
I can't control the mechanismsof the economy, but I mean, if,
in whatever way we cancontribute that feels meaningful
in the moment, yeah, I think weshould do it.

(26:52):
Agree, and there's nothingwrong with driving the uber
really well, and I think thiscomes back.

I really glad you brought that up, cecily.
I think it comes back to this Ithink you were speaking to this
too, jesper about the automaticdefinitions of success that we
take on and then labor under.
It's like, oh, I could never dothat, because that's not what a
successful person of my agewould do.
It's like what the hell doesthat matter really?

(27:21):
And so we've built thesehierarchies, especially in the
developed countries, of if youdo some sort of white collar
work, you're better than thetrades people, if you are in the
C-suite, you're better than themiddle management and the
laborers.
You know, and honestly I don't.
I don't feel that that is thedefinition of freedom, and a lot

(27:41):
of people still continue tohold that definition of the
further away I can get fromhaving to work, for example, and
so if they're successful increating that life, a lot of
them find themselves and I havefriends who are dealing with
this right now they havemillions and millions of dollars
and they struggle to findsatisfaction and meaning in

(28:03):
their lives, even though they'veachieved the American dream.
They've achieved the dream offinancial freedom, and to me,
financial freedom is really alovely thing, but it's only one
slice of very important pie, andI think you've said it when we
first started this episode thefreedom of health, the freedom
of having a healthy mind, theability to even be with

(28:24):
ourselves in the moment.
To me, the financial piece andin America, I'm sure, possibly
in Europe and other places too,but I'm just in the American
bubble In America we've turnedthat pie into, let's say, 90% of
the pie.
That's the most important thingand I think that's one of the
reasons we're dealing with somany, so much.

A great level of depression and anxiety here is
that that is become the topvalue, you know there's not much
meaningfulness to be found onthe backside of your visa card,
really no, but there isn't.
Right.
And I think may, besides thebase level of you know, knowing

(29:09):
that you'll survive, the feelingof meaninglessness is that a
word Might be the worst place toarrive really wake up and feel
there's nothing meaningful to doand there's nothing meaningful

(29:32):
about finding that copy coffeecup and filling it with coffee
and get going with the day.
I think that is, besideshopelessness, probably the worst
place to be.
Yeah, and it has nothing to dowith how much money you have in

(29:53):
the bank.

Um, it really hasn't yeah have either of you
read um robin wall Kimmerer'sbook Braiding Sweetgrass?
Nope.
Not yet.
I'm just listening to it againas I drive around and take
people around in the Uber.
Such a beautiful book, oh myGod.

(30:17):
She's a botanist.
She was raised as a NativeAmerican young woman, so she has
this beautiful tradition andsort of natural spirituality,
and then she brought the sciencein and she just weaves it in.
But the reason I'm bringing itup is she talks a lot about the
need for meaningful ceremony inour lives and that exists

(30:39):
outside of, you know, somereligious or even spiritual
thing as a main component of it.
More of bringing ceremony intothe mundane moments, and what
you just said, cecily, remindedme of that.
It reminds me to stop rushingthrough, to create ceremony over
the cup of tea I'm making orcreate a moment of genuine

(31:01):
connection between this reallyold cat that sitting on my desk
right now, the cat himself.
He's been with me for, I guess,16 years.
He was a rescue in Austin,texas, when I lived there and
started writing, and he'sgetting to be very, very old and
so I'm watching him begin tosay goodbye.
I'm having to say goodbye tohim.
You know, and you know I couldhave my life be so busy that I

(31:24):
forget um to really connect withthis creature that's been a
really good friend to me for allthese years.
He's lived with me through adivorce and through all sorts of
stuff and has been my reallygood companion, and so I'm
bringing that up to say there'sone example of, yeah, I could
rush through my life and thenwhen he eventually dies, I'd

(31:44):
have all this regret, you know.
Oh, I wish I would have spent alittle more actual time
connecting with this being, youknow, and so I keep being
reminded stop, breathe, connect,you know, like we're doing
right now.
I love the meaningfulconversations we're having.

Yeah, but it is so difficult and I am in some
ways jealous of deeply religiouspeople.
I remember an interview I readmany, many years ago with some
rock star that was asked aboutmeaningfulness and

(32:23):
meaningfulness and life and ifthe person was afraid of the, of
dying and there I think it wasa she I can't remember answered
I hope to die, either deeplyreligious or in agreement with

(32:43):
the universe.
Like I'm, I'm okay with it and Ican look at the some of the
religions out there and bejealous of the community around
the religion and the, theceremonies and rituals where I
think that the Denmark I wasbrought up in as a not super

(33:08):
religious family, we went to,like the church one or twice a
year, maybe three times, youknow, for Christmas and Easter,
and that was it.
It was more a ritual than itactually was, something we felt
meant and did, and it actuallywas something we felt meant and
did, but it's like it wasn't.
When the general religion wasremoved, it wasn't exchanged

(33:31):
with something else, right,right, and you have lived
through this very religiousupbringing and have said goodbye
to it.
How have you thought about thisof looking back, seeing the
good in what was that youdecided to leave, and how can
you recreate it without goingunder that strictness?

that it was you were brought up in, right I love
, yeah, I love that you'repointing that out, jasper, and I
have.
You know, a lot, of a lot ofthe people I grew up with.
Many of them either stayed inthat group or they left but
didn't process why they wereleaving.

(34:13):
You know, and so I see, youknow guys who are my age you
know I'll be 52 in May and I seeguys who are in this age group
who never really identified whyit was they were pulling out.
They just were uncomfortablewith and left, and there's a lot
of pain and anger still leftthere.
You know, for me, I think thatover the years, the last 30

(34:33):
years or however long it's beensince I left I guess about 25,
have been a lot, of, a lot ofinner work, and so for me now,
yes, I wouldn't want to go backto it, but there's also I have
such deep appreciation for beingraised, honestly, outside of
the usual way of seeing theworld, and so in so many ways I

(34:54):
think it's shaped me and allowedme to ask questions that, had I
been brought up in themainstream way, would be a lot
more difficult.
So that's one thing, but let'sgo back to the ritual and
ceremony thing.
Like um in this book she talksabout what makes a meaningful
ritual, and she said it's theattention that you're paying to

(35:17):
the, the act, whatever it is, orthe set of actions, and it's
the intention behind it.
So she said we can take anymundane experience and by
placing a certain focus and byplacing an intention.
You know, I, when I was livingin Austin, I worked at a, a
cigar lounge that was one of.
I had three part-time jobs.
That was one of them, and itwas mostly middle-aged, pretty

(35:39):
well-to-do tech workers who camein there and I grew this really
beautiful friendship with them,but they thought I was
absolutely crazy.
You know, I thought I was acrazy hippie that's what they
called me, and.
But I remembered that I, afterfeeling pretty miserable for
about a year, you know of justlike what has happened to my
life Will I ever figure this outagain?

(36:01):
I began to realize that theseare the circumstances of my
actual life and I can waste itby being miserable or I can show
up with all of who I am, and soI would brew pots of iced tea
for these guys and I would justpretend that I could pour love,
the energy of love, into thatpot and the same thing, and so
it began to make this.

(36:22):
What was a pretty uncomfortableexperience for me in a lot of
ways it began to bring meaningto it, and it wasn't meaning
dictated by a religious book orby a religious group or anything
like that.
It was meaning that I chose tocreate in that experience and to
me that's one of our greaterinvitations and challenges in
this modern world is to unplugfrom all the ways we are told

(36:45):
meaning and sense of purpose andfulfillment happens and begin
to take our place as thecreators of this experience,
this exchange, whatever it is.

To me also ritual ties back to values.
So if I know what's trulyimportant, I can pay attention
to it.
And if I know what moments willcarry my day and what moments
will be most impactful to mycore values, I can pay more

(37:23):
attention to those.
And you know me and my morningcoffee.
It has to be combined withsunshine, if not, it's.
Putting just a few minutes ofreal presence into those things

(37:44):
that I know are really importantmakes it a different situation.
I'm not just yeah, I I canwrite a to-do list while doing
it, but it becomes a little moreof a thing.
And I also think anotherimportant point is we can

(38:06):
probably agree there's a lotwrong with this world.
I think no one would say, oh,it's all good and fine and
perfect.
So even if we don't agree onwhat's wrong, we all agree that
we need to make someimprovements.
And I'm at a point now whereI'm speculating, just circling

(38:28):
around the idea that I think alot of the things we have to do
to make these improvements.
I'm thinking about yourmetaphor of the cars on fire and
you waving at the side of theroad.
Come on, let's meditate overhere.
No, but really I think a lot ofthe things we need to do a very

(38:51):
counterintuitive and I thinkthat on a global level for us as
humanity, and on a personallevel.
so in order to thrive and getthings done and create a
harmonious, balanced life, weneed to do some things that kind
of don't really make sense atall.

(39:12):
In order to get a lot done, weneed to stop.
But it's real In order to befocused, we need to let go of
focus and be creative and soft.
Let our minds be soft and wildand weird.

(39:32):
We need to do things with nopurpose in order to find purpose
.
It's very counterintuitive andI cannot put very exact words on
it because it's what I'mneeding at the moment yeah and
this has to do.
It ties back to the ritual thing, to to be ritualistic and and

(39:55):
and without organized religion,because I think that's the line
you know you can be spiritual,but you don't need the organized
religion.
That's where, well, that'swhere, my cutoff is.
Don't tell me what to do or howto do it, yeah.

And I'd love to go back to what you just said
about get things done and one ofthe.
I feel pretty strongly that oneof the things we're being faced
with as an entire species onthe planet at the moment is, you
know, and especially a speciesthat has been dominated largely
by capitalism for the last, youknow, few hundred years.

(40:34):
Capitalism is based on theunderlying conviction of
scarcity there's not enough, sowe must gather it and hoard it
and build systems to get more ofit.
And conviction of scarcitythere's not enough, so we must
gather it and hoard it and buildsystems to get more of it.
And all of that, and I thinkthat many of us in these
cultures don't ever stop to askwhy, why does the growth always

(40:56):
need to be up and to the right?
Why does there need to beconstant growth?
And if the answer comes backwell, it's so that we have more
money then to me that's anillegitimate answer.
That comes back well, it's sothat we have more money, then to
me that's an illegitimateanswer.
That's not a good enough reasonto keep building and building
and putting ourselves throughgenuinely inhuman experiences of
life in which we're trapped indebts and we're trapped in jobs.

(41:20):
I mean, we aren't ever trappedreally.
I mean, you all have brokenfree.
You know what it means, but itrequires a huge commitment and a
huge breaking out of theinertia of that kind of living,
and so I don't feel like I havethe answers.
I'm just glad you're bringingit up, because I feel like this
becomes another key question offreedom is ask the question why,

(41:41):
why does that matter?
Does it matter to me?
Why, why does that matter?

Does it matter to me?
You know I have.
I have constantly in thedialogue, been reminded of two
episodes we have done.
One is with a guy called DennisNarmark and he has written a
book called the Price on Freedomwhere he unpacks the real price
of choosing not to be free, theprice of working, the price of

(42:11):
all these choices we involuntarytakes.
And the week after we made aninterview with a woman who have
written a book called CraftPsychology, or she actually
created the field of craftpsychology.
And I found it so interestingbecause I have for many years

(42:35):
never understood my wife whoknits socks, sweaters,
everything.

You can stop after the word wife.

Yeah, I don't understand my wife.

You still don't, but you're very nice, yes, and
I love you.

But now I've tried something and I've even
learned some stuff.
No, last summer you can explainit.

Oh, someone made science.

Yeah, oh, someone made science.
Yeah, no, I started uhwhittling and I have uh last
summer and I think I've made 40spoons since and at some point I
could have just bought them inikea yeah, we could have bought
them in ikea.
It would have taken so much lesstime and cheaper as well and

(43:24):
I've, uh, at some point I lookedat all these spoons and I was
like, what should I do with allthese spoons?
And, um, yeah, we have a friendwho have a farm and at some
point I was like, oh, maybe shecould sell them for me.
And then I looked at them and Iwas like, but the amount of
hours I put into them.
I would rather give them awaythan charge people what I think

(43:47):
they should cost, because theyshould cost a couple of hundred
dollars or something with allthose hours I put in.
But I really love making thespoons, I love sitting with the
wood, I love looking at how thewood is, how it reacts, what
spoon it wants to be, and allthese things.

I need some help with that yeah.

And what she said about this is that we often
don't understand the whole whatwe get out of doing crafts, work
, the almost meditative rhythmof doing something with our

(44:34):
hands, and the reason she'stalking about crafts and not
hobbies is that it reflects backto that.
People need to be dry, fit andwarm.
Yeah, she said that is what webasically did earlier in life or
earlier in time.

(44:55):
We needed to be fit, dry andwarm.
And if you looked at a lot ofthe crafts out there, then
that's what they are about.
It is tools for feeding, it isclothes that people are creating
, etc.
But she also opened my eyes, foryou can say more I I I was

(45:15):
looking at, but have I hadhobbies during my life?
And one of the things she'sopened my mind to was that
shoveling snows can be.
It's a kind of a craft.
It has some of the sameelements of the repetitiveness
and you're actually doingsomething and, as cecilia would
say to many people, I was sohappy when I came in from having

(45:35):
snow was the best yeah, snowwas better than cutting grass.
I mean, I was so happy, felt sofulfilled, and it reties to the
talk about purpose that my workoften is building websites and
helping people with marketingetc.
But it's not physical.

(45:57):
I really like to see, when I'vecreated a spoon, sit and look
at it.
Or when I had a house and Ishoveled the snow man, I was so
proud looking at the.

You can wash the car if you want to oh yeah, I'm
not, that's not, I'm not therelet's not get carried away here
yeah all that pollen.

You know what are you doing for hobbies, uh,
jacob.

Wow, what a great question.
You know I've watched mydaughter, meg, who came and
lived back with me, and Megcrochets a lot and has gone
through a similar trajectory asyou, jesper, with the question
of, okay, should I try to sellthese on Etsy or something?
And eventually Meg just decidedI'm, I, I love making, uh, I

(46:51):
love making.
And I've watched meg do thatthrough the course of some
pretty distressing times whereyou know, where they weren't
feeling connected to what wasnext in their lives and all that
.
But just watching meg do that,rather than sit there and and um
and dump it out on Netflix orsomething the whole time, it's
just been marvelous to watch themental health benefit, all of

(47:12):
that.
And Meg is so proud when theycome out and show me this next
thing they just made.
Here's one of them.
They made a little, um, alittle yellow octopus.
So, yeah, oscar sits on my desk.
And you asked about me thoughthat's a great question I would
say that one of my mostimportant and this isn't

(47:33):
crafting, but it does have theelement of bilateral movement I
love to hike and I love to walkaround the river here in Boise,
we're blessed with nature aroundhere, it's just amazing.
River here in Boise, we'reblessed with nature around here,
it's just amazing.
So I think walking and hikingfor me, take up a really
important place, and during thewinter times I struggle with

(47:55):
that because it's, you know,becomes less and less practical
to do that.
Writing things yes, that's aquestion.
It's an uncomfortable questionfor me.
Yes, because I feel like I needto spend more time in that area
of my life.
Is the truth?

yeah, it took me many, many years to reach a
point where I and that's the funthing is I felt it could be
unproductive, but then that itwas creating like I primarily
make spoons you can use in thekitchen, cooking spoons and
wooden spoons, and that makes itmeaningful because I feel I'm

(48:36):
still producing something.
But then in the back of my mindthere is this why do I have
this need of?
It needs to be something thatcan be used?
This need of it needs to besomething that can be used.

You see, I think there is a very important line
of thought that we all have todo to separate the idea of what
is productive and meaningfulwork and what is not.
And I think we all grew up in aculture where whatever someone

(49:11):
will pay you for has value andwhatever is not paid for has no
value.
Right.
And you've talked a lot aboutmoney and your spoons at this
point, and you've talked a lotabout money and your spoons at
this point, and I think it'sabout time we stop to give this
really deep thought, for manyreasons, one of them being for

(49:38):
the equality of women.
It gets lost somewhere thatwomen's work, what is
traditionally women's work, iseither highly underpaid or not
paid for.
Therefore, it has no value.
Therefore, the whole languagearound that could not be paid

(49:58):
for, which means a lot of thingsthat are highly meaningful and

(50:23):
highly satisfying to do are inthat realm of wasted time, and
we're all conditioned into this,from our schooling, basically,
and then, later on, the workingthing.
You also talk about your spoonsand the hours that go into it,

(50:43):
which is, you know, this workermindset I'm selling my hours, so
I have to be here for eighthours and then you'll pay me for
it, rather than I'm producingsomething that has value.

But I'm a very unfree, free man in many ways.

Correct, and we all are, except the other half
of us, who are women.
But maybe the gender thing isnot that important in this case.
The the case is, because we'reconfusing value with with
monetary value, we we allow alot of meaningfulness to go down

(51:22):
the drain and we completelyconfuse ourselves as to what we
need to appreciate and what isworth doing with our time, which
means we lose our sanity, welose our physical health, we
lose our relations.
Oh, have we had theconversation about how much

(51:44):
coffee I drink and how much Italk?
Absolutely.
So many times as if that is awaste of time, but basically I'm
maintaining our relations inour social life and most first
and foremost, with our children.
I do a lot of talking.
It's the most meaningful thingI can do.
Therefore, I do it.

Yes.

But the reason I often return to this area is
that I'm aware of my own lack inhaving reached the point where
I am more confident with beingunproductive Because it is
nagging in the back of my mindbut you're so productive when
you produce a spoon you produceone every time you sit down.
I love doing spitting outspoons so fast.

No, no, no, but those are among the things.
Yeah, but I'm not sitting downdrawing sorry, and stuff like
that.
And there is this unbalance inmy mind where I know I need to.
I know it would be veryvaluable for me to not put

(53:03):
monetary value as a goal oh,sorry, a goal.
But and at this, oh sorry, I.
I know it would be veryvaluable for me not to have this
monetary value as a goal, butat the same time, I've been
brought up into a culture whereit is what it is and I am
responsible for driving a family, getting money to make

(53:26):
everything work and stuff.
So the challenge and I'mconstantly baffling back and
forth.
But the fun thing is, if I'vedecided this is something I do,
this is good enough, then I have, I'm fine with doing it.
I do my yoga in the morning, Irun every morning and those
things I have attached meaningto.

(53:47):
So it is about this.
What are we attaching meaningto as something that is worth
our time?

um, but but I think also there's a case to be
made for letting go there.
There is.
It's high, if I am to advice,which is always risky business.
But if I should, I think themorning pages technique sit down
, write.
You can handwrite, you can doit on your computer.

(54:18):
Maybe it's more efficient to doit pen and paper, I don't know.
Have a set amount that you likeand write whatever.
But don't stop.
Write whatever.
Do it every morning.
Before you start thinking,before you start doing anything

(54:39):
else.
You can have a to-do list onhand just to unload whatever is
popping up.
I have to remember this andthat and the other.
It comes in the morning, it'snormal.
I cannot describe how much moreefficient I am in the times of
my life where I've been doingthat.
It's the most productive timesof my life.
If I do something highlyunproductive in the morning and

(55:04):
the idea of people can look itup morning pages.
It's a technique.
I didn't invent it, but youcould burn it afterwards.
It's not a blog post, it's nota diary, it's not a journal,
it's not fancy, it's not a poem.
It's just whatever is on yourmind, get it out for a set
amount of time, set amount ofpages, whatever you like.
That set amount of time, setamount of pages, whatever you

(55:28):
like.
That's really nice to do and asa psychologist, I very often
recommend my clients to do thissit with it technique, which is
kind of the same thing.
You have this problem, thisthing.
You can't control this trauma,this, whatever relational
something.
It's disturbing your life.
We're working on it, you'repaying me money for it.
It's a big deal.

(55:48):
And now I'm telling you to sitwith it, leave it be, don't
change it, don't work with it.
Sit with it for a set amount oftime, let's say 15 minutes.
Just allow it.

Get up, do something else yeah, so by the
way, extreme opposite of beingefficient yeah, cecilia is
mentioning stuff I'm really badat right here, I'm sorry well,
it's interesting yeah, it'sinteresting.

I um, I don't know if I mentioned last time we
talked, but, uh, the artist way.
I have my father's copy of thiswith his signature on the spine
.
He gave it to me before I movedto Austin and Texas and I
credit that with really helpingme recover and come back in
contact with my life, and I'vebeen doing Morning Pages now for

(56:42):
the last 15 years, and I'vebeen doing Morning Pages now for
the last 15 years.
Actually, last week, I justhosted an online class for Julia
Cameron for this.
It was second of two with herand we've been working together
now for years and it's just anamazing experience to me.
Yeah, no, it's just such asurreal experience sometimes to
be sharing her and this workwith people, and I just love

(57:04):
that you brought it up,necessarily, because I know for
sure that learning some of thosetechniques and then using them,
practicing them, there's noquestion they likely saved my
life back in the day.
I said there's no question andI said likely, so I qualified it
.
But you know, I know weprobably have to wrap up pretty

(57:27):
soon.
But I wanted to say this, andit's so interesting I'm hearing
both of you and myself as westruggle to frame value outside
of just one lens of what valueis, which is, you know, time,
money, money for time, all that.
One thing that I'm learning toask myself is what, if something

(57:47):
is bringing me joy or pleasurein some way, um, or fulfillment,
sense of meaning, what payment,what?
What payment am I am Ireceiving here?
Not money.
Uh, when you mentioned womenand the traditional role that
has been so disregarded in somany ways, cecily, and the more

(58:11):
that our culture has becomefixated on money as that's the
highest value, that's thehighest form of payment, we
forget.
We forget that a beautiful,whether it's the mother or the
father who has ever taken careof the things, or maybe it's a
joint partnership on thosewhoever's doing things that
they're not being paid actualcash for, there's payment.

(58:33):
There's payment in the form ofconnection and of genuine
community of fulfillment, and Ithink that the more that we can
start asking ourselves if it'ssomething that really matters
but then some part of the psychesays shouldn't be doing, that
you're not getting paid for itor not getting paid enough for
it.
The question is for me, whatpayoff am I receiving for this?

(58:56):
And if it's emotional, if it'ssocial and communal, sometimes
those are extremely high formsof payment and the more that we
can begin to accept it's kind oflike the pie.
You know.
That's like here's the moneyfreedom, here's all these other
freedoms.
It's very similar to that.
For me, it's the question ofwhat payment am I receiving for

(59:18):
living my life in this way?
And if it's love, if it'sconnection, if it's mental
health I mean, jesper, I canjust imagine sitting there
carving the spoons.
My father was a finecraftsperson and made violins.
He actually carved a violinthat I make, and so I have to
ask you what wood do you like tocarve the most Spoons?

(59:40):
What's that?
Just spoons I really love makingspoons.
What wood do you like to carve?
What's?

the wood, yeah, okay.
So what would um?
Ah, there's a lot of wood thatis really beautiful.
But I really like, uh, actuallyjust working with pine wood
because it's so easy to to carveand it goes so fast.
So for me there is also the joyin in reaching um, to be able

(01:00:12):
to make a spoon in an evening.
Often I, if we are sittingtalking with the people we meet
we, as we travel a lot, around alot we meet people sit and chat
for many, many hours.
Then it actually helps my mindbeing focused on the
conversation, as I otherwisewould go somewhere in my mind,

(01:00:32):
and then I love just handingthem a spoon in the evening when
we are finished talking.
So if I can three to four hours, that's easy to do in pinewood.
I have made some in harder woodand it's so pretty.
I really love it, but for meit's the speed.
Still, maybe with time I willgo to Harderwood.

(01:00:55):
I've also looked into getting aDremel and that is really fun
to work with.
Don't you have a Dremel?
Yeah, I have it, but the thingis it's very anti-social because
it has it is filled with noise.
It makes a lot of noise whenyou're using it, so it's not
something I can enjoy with otherpeople around, and that's when

(01:01:18):
I really love to carve.
Is is is in community as it.
It helps me focus on the hereand now.
To return to the, I like youused the word what payment do I
get to kind of free it from themonetary value that we can use
it as?
What is the emotional benefit?

(01:01:39):
What is it that get out of it?
And when I look back, some ofthe things I've enjoyed most is
cecilia and I sometimes givesome talks for free when we are
at a festival of some sort, andI love doing it.
I love the interaction withpeople, I love the energy you
receive back and I love thequestions people ask.

(01:02:02):
Yes, and I like to chatafterwards.
One thing it's almost an excusestanding uh and and talking
about what we talk about.
That's not the important partfor me.
It is answering people'squestions and chatting
afterwards, where where we getinto the really deep stuff about
choices in life.

(01:02:22):
Yeah, yeah.

Cecilie Conrad (01:02:25):
I like your pie analogy.
I'm not sure I get the point ofthe what payment do I get the
point of the payment could besomething other than money.
I think it's a dangerous way ofphrasing it, though, because

(01:02:45):
payment is usually somethingabout money.
But if we could read a word,yeah, maybe we can.
But as you were talking aboutthat and I put the feminism
agenda on the board here here,um, I was thinking about how
women, statistically, are lesssuccess, success can't speak

(01:03:12):
again, uh, have a hot, lowerrisk of arriving at a point of,
uh, late in life, onset,depression, big regrets of
divorce and suicide.
Well, divorces, they are not theones giving up, and I think

(01:03:35):
it's because women, they mightnot be paid for it and they
might, money-wise, they mightnot be respected for it, they
might struggle themselves toprioritize these things, but
somehow, traditionally maybethere's a biological side to it,
I don't know they do thingsoutside of the realm of the

(01:04:02):
money-making, the rational thing, more, and they are therefore
at a better place at the end oflife, which is, um, well, it's a
big cash flow to get in there,to realize when you're, when you
see the the end of days coming,that you did something
meaningful and it was important,and you are important to a lot

(01:04:25):
of people and they appreciateyour effort and they want the
recipe you know, kind of.
So maybe we can learn from thatand maybe we can make a little
rebellion against the way thatthe big machine is working by

(01:04:46):
doing something that's notofficially meaningful, that
makes no sense, that has novalue, that creates nothing that
could be sold on Etsy.
Maybe it could, but itshouldn't.
We like morning pages.

Jesper Conrad (01:05:03):
Yeah, jacob, I have a question for you.
As you have shared, have livedthrough some bigger changes in
life, both company going down,you have been through a divorce
and all these things.
What are your tools when youstand in the despair of life?
You know, often when we talkwith people and we retell our

(01:05:28):
stories, we often just skirtalong the highlights and, hey,
my life is wonderful, blah, blahblah.
But life is also pretty hardand everyone, if we go into it,
have met difficulties.
But I think what frames us aspeople is how we get to the
other side, and you seems likeyou have walked a path in your
life where you have reached theother side a couple of times.

(01:05:51):
Even so, yes, your toolbox oryour go-tos yeah, and it's I
mean I love.

Jacob Nordby (01:06:00):
I think we have to view it as a practice versus a
destination.
You know, um, I mean there isthere.
There is another side towalking through really deep
waters and not knowing if we'lldrown, and it's wonderful to get
into a less precarious feelingplace.
But I've learned, jasper, that,um, and not perfectly.

(01:06:20):
It's not like I practiceperfectly meditation every day
or perfectly journaling orwhatever, but I will say that I
remember having this book sortof fall off into my hand.
I've had that experience inbookstores when I felt the most
need of guidance.
I would walk into a bookstoreand something, would you know,
really attract me.
And there was this book calledthe Way of the Warrior I think

(01:06:42):
it was not a famous book at alland I read it and he had this
phrase and he said one of themost important things we can do
is develop a sense of knowingwhat to do when we don't know
what to do.
And you asked about the despairpiece and the answer is yes, and
I don't find any new iterationsof despair to be more

(01:07:05):
comfortable because I've beenthrough it and have some tools.
That's kind of surprising attimes, like wow, I thought I had
mastered going throughdifficult times.
No, the new difficult time isstill its own fresh hell, you
know.
But there is some history,jesper, and the history says
take a deep breath.
I try to practice breath workand not always do really intense

(01:07:29):
stuff, just box breathing.
Sometimes I'll do it when I'min the car and I feel myself all
activated and anxious.
I think that's been one of thegifts of walking through despair
is I become more aware ofwhat's going on in my body and
taking care of that, rather thanjust staying in mental concepts
about trying to figure it out.
Mentally.
It's like, oh, my body issaying I need to take care of it

(01:07:50):
right now.
Let me breathe.
Good, let me go sit out in thesunshine for five minutes.
You mentioned sunshine withyour coffee, cecily.
Yeah, let me just go find somesunshine, if I can, for five
minutes, and be with myself, sitwith it.
Um, journaling every day reallyhelps me a lot and it helps me

(01:08:14):
spot patterns, uh, mentalpatterns, you know, um, or
emotional things that I keepgoing through, or fractals.
These experiences I've gonethrough over and over in my life
.
It's like, oh my God, I get achance to step out of that
pattern now, if I will, whereasbefore it was just on rote, it
was just conditioned, you know.
And so I don't know that I'mgiving you any gold nuggets here

(01:08:37):
of tools, but I will say thatthe inner work practices.
I remember reading that CarlJung once had a client come and
say Dr Jung and this was back inthe 1900s, early 1900s you know
, dr Jung, can the world escapean apocalypse?
And Dr Jung took a breath andhe looked back and he said yes,
if enough people do their innerwork.

(01:08:58):
Yeah, so these inner workthings, and they don't have to
be esoteric, they don't have tobe complicated, but bring
ourselves back into centerbreathing.
I did a little program for mycommunity recently called
Resilience RX, and I brought inan herbalist and I brought in a
breathwork movement specialistand we walked through it.

(01:09:19):
I said I don't want you to sithere and talk about it and me
listen to it, I want us to do ittogether.
And that's what we did.
We did it together and I'm like, if you can just take one thing
, build your own recipe book, doone thing and take it home with
you and begin practicing itdaily or regularly, not
perfectly, but just as often asyou find yourself needing it,
until it becomes more reflexivewhen you notice yourself in high

(01:09:40):
anxiety states or feelingdespair, feeling frozen.
The idea isn't to get to someplace in life where we never
experience high levels of fightor flight or being frozen.
You know that's part of thecycle.
That's part of the cycle oflife itself running through
those emotional and nervoussystem states.
The great victory to me is notgetting ourselves outside of

(01:10:05):
ever having to deal withsomething like that.
It's more of a matter oflearning that I can be resilient
and responsive within it, andthat, to me, is the biggest
freedom of all.

Yeah, I would agree To know that when you're
knocked out of balance, you knowyou'll find it again.

I think that this talk, returning to the freedom
we started with, is a wonderfulplace to end.
So, jacob, what I really wouldlike is for you to share how
people can work with you,because I know that you have
given stuff out to the world inyour writings and the programs

(01:10:49):
you have.
So please tell people how theycan get in contact with you and
what you can give them.

Jacob Nordby (01:10:57):
Thank you wow, I really did not expect this
amazing loop that we've takentoday.
And to come back to this pointof freedom.
It's marvelous.
So I have this one program, andI think this is probably the
easiest thing is just to allowpeople to experience it, and
then, of course, if they like it, they can reach out through my
message box or whatever, butit's called

(01:11:18):
creativeselfjournalcom and it'sa method for journaling for
people who don't love to journal.
It asks three main questions andI won't go into it now because
we're out of time, but it asksthree main questions and I've
offered with this program,totally free, an e-book, an
audio version.
I also have a little guidedmeditation in there and a

(01:11:38):
three-minute short video toexplain what this is all about.
So to me, that's a gift I wouldlove to give people, because
we've talked about journalingand morning pages today and what
a vital resource that can be.
So I would just love to givethis, this, to your listeners,
and I just love what you all aresharing with the world.
Thank you for inviting me back.
It's such a pleasure.

It's been a wonderful conversation.

Absolutely.

I enjoyed it a lot.
Yeah, it's been fun.

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116: Jacob Nordby | Rethinking Freedom: Purpose, Ritual, and the Value of Being

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}116: Jacob Nordby | Rethinking Freedom: Purpose, Ritual, and the Value of Being