April 23, 2025 • 49 mins
Dr. Cam joins us to discuss parenting teenagers and why efforts to control them often create more distance. She explains how control can undermine trust and why focusing on connection leads to better results.
We discuss the difference between respect and obedience, and how letting teens say “no” builds confidence and self-trust. Jesper shares his shift from being a “parenting by volume” dad to being more present and connected, and how time made the biggest difference.
Dr. Cam describes how many dads step back from parenting teens because they feel disconnected or uncertain about how to relate. She talks about why focusing on influence, not authority, helps parents stay close to their teens even in moments of conflict.
We also talk about how small moments—like asking about your teen’s interests instead of their grades—can rebuild connection when time is limited.
🔗 Connect with Dr. Cam
Website: https://www.askdrcam.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drcamcaswell/
Dr. Cams podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/parenting-teens-with-dr-cam/id1524209790
🗓️ Recorded April 23th, 2025. 📍 Budapest, Hungary
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:03):
so today we're together with Cameron Caswell,
who most people know as Dr Cam.
First of all, welcome to thepodcast.
It will be a pleasure alreadyis a pleasure.
We chatted a little before, butwelcome.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (00:17):
I really appreciate you guys having me.
Thank you so much for invitingme on yeah it's very nice to
meet you.
Jesper Conrad (00:24):
And I can be in doubt from time to time where to
start because there is so manyareas we could dive into.
But I fell over one of yourposts on Instagram and I was
like, oh, let's talk with Dr Camand you write and do a lot
about teenagers and we are inthe fun situation that we are
(00:47):
full-time traveling with threeteens.
Right now.
We have four children One is agrown-up and we are in Budapest
for the month where we areattending a world school pop-up
and there will be 120 travelingteens here and these are maybe
not the normal teens.
Sometimes there is no, no butthey find normal.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (01:13):
That's true , there is no normal.
Jesper Conrad (01:15):
No, but what I mean is that sometimes people
have this oh my teenager isdifficult kind of thing and it
is kind of a little differentfrom when you're together with
them all the time, likehomeschooling or unschooling or
world schooling parents.
But the subject I wanted totalk about was teens.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (01:34):
Yeah, well, that is my subject.
I'm all in on that and I thinkit's interesting.
I would love to hear from youtoo, when you're traveling with
your teenagers and homeschoolinghow does that impact your
relationship with them, do youthink?
Cecilie Conrad (01:49):
I think they rock our relationships with them
.
Actually, I think, yeah, but weunschool and basically
unschooling is all about therelation.
Yeah, so we have been buildingon.
It sounds like it's strategic,which I kind of it is not, and I
(02:11):
don't like it to sound likethat it's intentional yes,
that's a better word.
Our entire lifestyle isintentional, and the way we are
living our life with ourchildren we do it with.
There's a lot of thoughtprocess behind why we do the
things the way we are living ourlife with our children we do it
with.
There's a lot of thoughtprocess behind why we do the
things the way we do them, andthe result is that we have
(02:33):
awesome relations with our kids.
Yeah, um, I would say there is.
Oh, this sounds maybe a littletoo confident, but I mean the
things they are going through,the things that belong to the
teenage, and when it iscomplicated for them I wouldn't
(02:57):
say it's about or affected bytheir relation to us I feel like
we are the solid ground they'restanding on and we're here to
help and they trust us to helpthem, and that can be hard.
I'm not saying I have an easylife or they have an easy life,
but the relation has been thecenterpiece of our puzzle for
(03:18):
many, many years.
So now we are harvesting thegood results of an unschooling
life.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (03:23):
Love that.
Well, you guys have justsummarized my entire platform of
what we need to do as parentsright there.
It is all about relationshipand connection 100% and being
intentional about it.
So I absolutely love that andthat you're reaping the benefits
of that.
I have a teenager as well, andit is again I'm also very
(03:44):
intentional about ourrelationship and about how I
interact with her, and not in alike, oh how do I?
Cecilie Conrad (03:51):
it's just thoughtful right, it's not this
no, it's not like, how do I?
It's very authentic.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (03:59):
It's crazy authentic.
Like she sees the worst of me,she sees all sides of me.
We see all sides of each other.
It's very real.
But it's mutually respective,respectful.
It's mutually trusting, and Iknow I have to extend first the
trust, the respect, and when Ido that I get it back in spades.
(04:22):
I get so much back and so it isa very supportive, caring,
trusting relationship.
But you're right, it'sintentional, every day, every
moment.
Cecilie Conrad (04:34):
And we can grow.
I mean, I can keep growing.
That's why I stopped before,because I don't want it to sound
like I'm Madame Perfect overhere.
I'm not, and relationships arealways, in any situation, always
in somewhat complicated andneed attention and intention and
(04:56):
time.
And sometimes we have fourchildren, plus we are nomadic,
plus we are like everyone else.
We know we need to make moneyand cook meals and do stuff, and
sometimes there's just notenough of that resource, time
and something's lacking.
And so, yeah, it would beinteresting maybe to dive into
(05:20):
where do we even start?
I mean, even if we have a goodand strong relation with our
teenagers, where would be theway, the space, where do you
think the highest risk ofharming the relation is?
(05:41):
Maybe that's a better question.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (05:44):
That is, and I have a very strong answer
for that one too what I see.
It's really control when we tryto and I want to put out there
too, because you were sayingyou're an imperfect parent and
we all are and I think it'sembracing that imperfection and
(06:04):
not trying for us to be perfectbut also not trying to make our
teens perfect.
And I see that a lot, becausewe measure our success as
parents on our teen success, butwe have a preconceived notion
of what their success issupposed to look like to us, for
us to feel like we're a goodparent, to look like to us for
(06:26):
us to feel like we're a goodparent.
And so I see a lot of parentswho are in there pushing their
kids towards the type ofpotential they want them to fill
in.
So the grades and the schoolingand the different activities
and just how they presentthemselves and the clean room
and the right amount of time onsocial, all of these things we
have in our brain what theperfect child should be, and
(06:51):
none of us will say we want ourkid to be perfect, but yet in a
lot of the things that we try tocontrol, it is trying to get
them to fit into that mold ofperfection, right, even how they
talk to us, and the respect andthe everything else that comes.
But there's gonna be momentswhere we don't have that.
There's dysregulation, like Iwas saying with my daughter, we
(07:16):
have great and she'sextraordinarily respectful.
Just last night we had aconversation and her tone I did
not appreciate and it triggeredme and I was like I'm going to
stop right now, let's not talk.
And I just stopped it.
I didn't get mad at her, I justsaid I'm not, I'm not reacting
well right now to how you'resaying this.
I just want to let you know Iget what you're saying, but the
(07:38):
way you're saying it is reallyimpacting me.
So let's, let's drop it andlet's talk about it tomorrow.
And we talked about today andwe're like why were we both
upset yesterday?
The conversation wasn't evenanything to get upset about,
right, we had just put in anemotional place.
So, as the adult, I said youknow what?
I'm not going to respond wellright now, so I'm going to let
(08:01):
this go.
So we're not perfect, but we'regoing to recognize that we want
to take those moments to stepback and not try to say hey, you
don't talk to me that way.
That's not okay, because shewas emotionally dysregulated as
well and it was more of a.
I get what you're trying to say.
I'm not feeling it the way Ithink you're intending.
(08:24):
It's really striking a chord inme right now.
This isn't good right now, andshe was apologetic, but it was
still that moment.
So I think Us saying we'regonna accept what our kids are
giving us, we're going to takeaccountability for how it
impacts us, because they're not.
(08:44):
She wasn't trying to disrespectme.
There was nothing about herthat is disrespectful, but that
tone felt it.
So it's going okay, let's juststop.
Let's just stop.
That's her, this is me.
How are we going to treat it,rather than me saying you have
to behave this way to make mefeel this way, and that becomes
(09:06):
very controlling, or you need todo this, go ahead.
Cecilie Conrad (09:09):
No, I was just thinking.
Then it becomes about thebehavior.
It becomes superficial.
I noticed that in the Englishlanguage, and especially the
Americans, they use this.
You know, talk to merespectfully, show me respect,
but then it becomes this puppetshow you know 100.
Because respect is not aquestion of how you phrase your
(09:31):
words.
My kids use the f word prettyoften and that's not
disrespectful.
It's not because they don'trespect me as a person.
It just came out annoyed.
They don't maybe say itdirectly to me.
I'm just to clarify.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (09:48):
No, and I hear that.
I mean there is a different.
Cecilie Conrad (09:50):
It becomes this controlled idea about what we
see on the surface.
And I want to go back to thecontrol problem because I find
it really psychologicallyinteresting why we set up these.
You know, we have these, maybenot on the forefront of our mind
(10:10):
, but we do have checklists.
We want them to look good, wewant them to be popular, we want
them to clean their rooms, wewant them to whatever.
All these things take all theboxes and we think, okay, what
can I do to make that happen?
It becomes this push, push, pushand I think it's tied back into
actually the feeling in theparent and it's very often on a
(10:34):
subconscious level.
You know, I had this miracle inmy hands X years ago and I just
want to do my best because thismiracle is the best thing that
ever happened in the history, ofanything that ever happened,
and I want to do my best.
And then this doing my bestbecomes this systematic way of
(10:57):
doing things that we were taughtin our school years and in our
upbringing that it's about thegrades and it's about how nice
is your handwriting, do theteachers like you?
Do you wear the fashionableclothes?
Do you cut your hair in theright way, all these things.
So I think we need to unravelpretty far to find where that
(11:23):
control comes from, and itbecomes a very deep inner work.
But I know that I can also ravea little bit about this
explanation.
That it's I want to do my best.
What would my best look like?
Okay, it would look like this.
So what can I do?
And we become the pushingparents.
Maybe you have a different,other perspective on it.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (11:44):
I think that the trick is.
And then kind of what trips usup is when they're little.
We do have a.
We need to do a lot of controlright.
We are teaching them, we'remaking them safe, we're doing
all of all of the things we need.
I mean their babies, their feet.
We're doing all of that.
And when our kids become tweensand teenagers, we have to change
(12:07):
our approach, because nowthey're full humans, now they're
their own individual humans andI think we forget to separate
ourselves and so our boundariesget very blurred and we overstep
our boundaries considerablywhen it comes to our teens,
because we almost see them asand I don't think we do this
intentionally, but we see themeither as an extension of
(12:29):
ourselves or something we own,something that we're entitled to
control because they're oursand we have to separate and go.
They're not we're responsiblefor caring for them, but we are
not them.
They are completely separatehuman beings with their own
(12:51):
feelings, their own needs, theirown dreams, everything, their
own motivations, and we want toput our stuff into them, our
motivations.
We want to prioritize.
What do you want?
We want to do that, and you'reright in this mind of having
them become their best, butwe're trying to get them again
(13:12):
to be the best as we envisionthem, not the best of who
they're meant to be, and we haveto drop that.
We have to drop thoseexpectations and those pushes
and we have to be able to standby and go.
Who are you?
You're going to make mistakes.
You have to be able to stand byand go.
Who are you?
You're gonna make mistakes?
You have to.
That's the human experience, ismaking mistakes.
(13:34):
The human experience isfrustration and feeling all the
emotions across the spectrum.
That is the human experience.
We wanna give them their ownfull human experience, which
means we need to step out of itand not try to control it for
them.
We can support them, we canlove them, we can encourage them
(13:55):
, but it's not ours to pull thestrings.
That's unfair to them.
Jesper Conrad (14:03):
Cam during our conversation so far, I've been
sitting and thinking about whatkind of data was for our first
team.
So our situation was different.
We lived a different life,which meant I was a classic
going to work dad.
Now we're full time traveling,which means I work from home and
(14:27):
have so much more time togetherwith the family.
And when I look back at thatdad I was and I'm like, oh man,
you're a poor boy.
I want to give him a hug, Iwant to give him some love and I
want to say to him hey, you endup better.
Because when I look back, I'mnot necessarily proud of how I
(14:50):
was a parent.
We have a a former episode.
I unfortunately can't rememberthe name, but she introduced the
word.
I'm a recurring yeller recoveryrecovery.
I'm a recovering yeller yes, andI just was like oh, it hit hard
.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (15:08):
I'm like, oh yes, I remember trying to
parent with volume, volume heylet's parent with volume the new
book yeah, oh, a lot of peoplelove yeah no but um.
Jesper Conrad (15:25):
And then I've been thinking about what is it
for some of us dads, and thewhole different life I'm living
now, is the biggest differenceis time.
I have so much more timetogether with my teens and
unfortunately, in most familythere is this the roles are
skewed in a way where the dad isless together with the children
(15:49):
than the moms and I thinkthat's affected a lot of how,
unfortunately, we also parentand I can see the biggest change
I've done is the time and doingstuff together with my kids.
But when I look back and if Ishould be have not a negative oh
, you were a bad dad, yes, butbut trying to understand the
(16:11):
differences, then what I see isa dad who didn't have such a
deep connection to his children,and I'm not saying do my
bidding, but I'm like if Iwanted to encourage them to
something or if I wanted to helpthem move in a certain
direction, I couldn't becausethere wasn't that connection,
(16:34):
there wasn't that trust.
But I could with a negativecontrol, with the parenting by
volume, and I think it'sinteresting to look at that
difference and it led me wantingto ask you how often is dads
(16:55):
approaching, wanting to work,because I think we dads are
hopefully getting there, we aregetting better, but there is a
difference and one of the bigdifferences is time and
connection.
But there is a difference andone of the big differences is
time and connection, and I justsee a lot of parents, dads, try
(17:16):
to control by volume or shouting, or deciding and demanding.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (17:22):
Yeah, I think that's a really great
point.
And I do work with some dadsmajority's moms but I have some
dads, and the dads that I workwith are some of my favorite
clients because they're the dadsthat are like I want to break
that cycle of not having thoserelationships with our kids.
And one of the things I see isthat and we'll be honest, like
(17:47):
women tend to be more naturallynurturing and men try to be, are
more naturally like let'sproblem solve and get to the
point.
And teens don't want that.
Teens need nurturing, theydon't need to the point.
And dads start to feel left out.
They don't know how to show upfor their kids.
Right now it changes.
They were the playful dad orthey were the this dad and now
(18:09):
they don't know how to relate.
And so I see a lot of dads that, intentionally or not even
intentionally, I don't eventhink they realize it but they
start focusing on their role asprovider.
My role is provider and keepingeveryone safe, and so that's
what I'm going to do, and that'smy love.
But it's disconnected, and sothey kind of move out of the
picture.
A to do, and that's my love,but it's not just.
(18:29):
It's disconnected, and so theykind of move out of the picture
a little bit.
And the other thing I see too isa lot of times parents parent
in very different ways and sodads kind of feel ousted a bit
because they're not parentingthe way the mom wants to parent,
and so there's a lot ofconflict.
So it's like, fine, it's easierjust to step aside and I see
(18:50):
dads that are going.
I want to change that and Iwant a relationship with my
teenager because I understand,just as you said, we can try to
control Control's very surface.
Control often breeds disrespectand mistrust, not the other way
around, which decreases ourinfluence.
And parenting teenagers is allabout influence.
(19:14):
We can't make them do anything,but they can have trust and
respect in us and want to hearwhat we have to say.
And that's where we have theinfluence and that's our power.
And so, learning how to stepaside and go how do I want to
connect with my kid, regardlessof parenting style, it's
(19:34):
connection and that's what Iwant to prioritize.
Cecilie Conrad (19:40):
I think you said before that it changes when
they become teenagers.
And I remember one of the booksI read at university a hundred
years ago.
Um, it was quite interesting asa Danish professor of
developmental psychology and hesaid I'm just searching for
(20:01):
words now as it was not inEnglish he said when they are 12
, you're done with the uphoud.
There's a word that cannotreally be translated, but you
would say that is the part ofparental work that has to do
(20:29):
with you.
Take off your shoes when youenter the home.
You shake hands with people over65, whatever the social norms
are whatever, but it's like yoursocial compass, your um, where
you can do, behave where you're.
It would be all right, in therelation with the children, to
(20:50):
tell them what to do.
That's actually what it is itis.
I mean, if my husband told mewhat to do, that would be really
weird, right?
Yeah, it would also be reallyweird if I told my 19-year-old
son what to do.
But when they have a vehiclejust a piece of information
you're passing on, because theyactually don't know at this
(21:12):
point that you're supposed totake your shoes off when you
enter x, y, z room.
Um, so at.
And he said stop when they're12, which is a kind of radical
because it's also the word forbringing up children in our
language.
But really what he meant wasyou do the work before they are
12 and after that, the onlything you have left is trust.
(21:36):
If they don't trust you at thispoint, they're flying, it's too
late.
Everything you have to you doyou do it before they are 12.
And I kind of wanted to go backto that because you said before
it changes when they areteenagers, and I agree, but on
the other hand, I would say theminute you you spit them out is
(21:58):
when you start working on thattrust thing.
Oh, 100 percent, 100 percent.
They need all that freedom andall that respect from day one of
who they are, what they need,how they are different from
other people and and and whatour role is to keep them safe.
Basically, yeah, um, not tocontrol their behavior, but we
(22:22):
can pass on the culture, whichis that word I was looking for
yeah, and and the social norms.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (22:28):
Obviously, like you can't, you don't want
to go into somebody's house andjump on their furniture.
You know the basic, you knowyou want to.
Cecilie Conrad (22:35):
you want to talk to people, yeah.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (22:37):
Yeah, people talk to you.
You want to look at them in anodd, like those things,
absolutely, and I think when wetry to continue to control them
when they're older, we then sendthe message that you are not an
okay human being, that we don'ttrust you to figure these
things out, that we still andwhat happens as well, and what
(22:58):
I'm seeing a lot of is we thenwe basically undermine their own
confidence and self-trust inthemselves as well, and they
stop learning how to thinkcritically and figuring things
out.
There's this learnedhelplessness of I don't know
what to do or I'm going to blameyou if I mess up because you're
(23:18):
telling me what to do all thetime, so it's got to be your
fault and they don't learn howto do it on their own or to
trust themselves.
And so what you were saying andI love is even at a very young
age, teaching them to trustthemselves is.
And so what you were saying andI love is even at a very young
age, teaching them to trustthemselves is so important.
And my like with my daughter,she made her own decisions of
what she wore, of what, like somany different things, and she
(23:42):
would go I love sharing.
She would go into the school orgo into we'd go shopping and
her shoes would be on the wrongfeet.
She always put her shoes on thewrong feet, but she put them on
herself and people would stopme and go your daughter's shoes
are on the wrong feet, I'm likeI know.
Thank you, she put them onherself right.
So she had this sense ofindependence and self-agency
(24:06):
from a very early age and now,when she's older, she's
extraordinarily competent, rightand entrusting in herself, but
also extremely trustful andrespectful of me.
And so we've got that.
But you're right, we'venurtured that from day one.
It's been you are you right.
Cecilie Conrad (24:27):
Yeah, the other thing is really.
So we're talking.
It sounds I'm I'm exaggeratinga little bit now, but it sounds
almost strategic.
We need them to trust us so westill have some sort of control
or influence when they'reteenagers, so that it doesn't
blow up and become ugly.
But actually it's also onlyfair, right?
(24:48):
I, this is a human being,brought into this world 24 hours
old, two years old, five yearsold, something like that.
And now they're telling you Iwant my shoes on, like this, or
I don't like peas, or I can'tsleep, or you know, maybe they
(25:11):
cry something's off and you'relike it can't be off.
Everything's perfect becauseI've done all the things from
the book, but it can be off.
And so their experience you usethe wording human experience.
Their human experience startsas soon as they're human and
they need to have a space tolive in that and to be.
(25:32):
There's so much batch thinkingabout children, so when they are
three, they need to whatever.
Oh, that's the worst.
Could they please just havesome space to live their life
from the beginning of their life?
Yeah, please just have somespace to live their life from
the beginning of their life,yeah, and?
And if we do this, then itbecomes a question not of you.
Don't talk like that.
Here it's more um, let meexplain to you.
(25:55):
We are in a, let's say, placeof worship from a different
culture than our own.
We're guests here to see theartwork, but we have to be also
respectful, and in this culture,no one speaks.
In this room.
You might hear all the othertourists talk, but we don't do
that because that isdisrespectful for the place that
(26:18):
we're visiting.
This is why I'm now asking youto be quiet for the next 10
minutes.
That's a completely differentparenting style than shut up.
Shut up, yeah, and also maybeeven give the child the choice
If you don't like being in thisroom, if it makes you
uncomfortable, we can leave, butif you want to be in here and
(26:39):
see the artwork and that's theway we've been trying to do it
all along and I am not perfect.
That's not just a strategy.
That is also giving space forsomeone else to be in their life
on the journey that we have toshare for a while, because we
(26:59):
happen to be the parents andthey're not old enough to fly
yet, fortunately, I love thatbecause I think one of the
things we have this weird beliefthat kids are supposed to
change to make our lives moreconvenient, and when our kids
make our lives inconvenient, weget upset with them.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (27:20):
How dare you have a bad mood when I want
to have a good mood, how dareyou say something or not want to
do something that I want to doand we get mad and we want to
change that because they'reruining, and we've got to
separate and go.
Well, we're ruining them theirtime because they don't want to
(27:41):
do this.
So we've got to understand likethey've got their own
boundaries, we've got our ownboundaries.
They've got what their needsare, we've got our needs.
They don't always align and, asthe parent, as the adult, guess
what we have to be the matureone and go.
How do we adapt to this?
Not how do you adapt to me.
How do I, as the mature adult,adapt to you and help you learn
(28:07):
to figure this out?
Because I know how to regulatemy emotions.
Hopefully, I know how and Iwill have other opportunities to
do this but you, I'm teachingyou and I'm modeling for you
what that looks like to becompassionate to other people
and to understand that otherpeople have different needs than
I do, and so we need to stopsaying our kid needs to behave a
certain way to make me okay.
I hear parents say well, theymade me mad, well, they made me
(28:32):
and I lost it, and I go.
Well, you made your child loseit way before that and now
you're mad at them, so why can'tthey be mad at you for doing
the exact same thing?
You're mad at them for right.
They're struggling directly,but so are you, so use that for
empathy but, it's just a hugediscourse that's out there, like
this story.
Cecilie Conrad (28:54):
You just keep hearing it, just like teenagers
are horrible and it's horribleyears.
I disagree completely oh, metoo, 100 there's this other
story that is kind of a I don'tknow, is it a narrative that
they are annoying, that it'sirritating to be a parent.
Jesper Conrad (29:14):
That they trigger you.
Cecilie Conrad (29:16):
That you know.
Oh, there's this task.
Oh, the kids they never.
There's this way of talkingabout the element of life that
it is to have children at home,where it's always about how, all
the things they don't do andhow annoying it is.
And now you have to do.
(29:37):
I just shared with you, beforewe started the recording, that I
had to clean the entire kitchenthe moment I walked in and that
was really annoying, but it'sjust, and it is, of course,
sometimes annoying, but at thesame time, this whole song hey,
wait a minute, we had thatmiracle in our hands eight years
ago and it's still a miracle.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (29:58):
Well, because teenagers now are
thinking for themselves andparents and I understand why
(30:30):
no-transcript giving themownership and so they fight back
harder because they're tryingto have agency over their lives
and we're trying to take controlover something that's not ours
to control and they're saying no.
And that's where this, so muchof this tension, comes from.
Jesper Conrad (30:50):
Yeah, we're just making the gap bigger and bigger
for some, some parents andluckily, cam.
I wanted to talk with you abouttime and also a why you went
into this uh you know.
So, uh, regarding time, that'swhy I shared our story about I
(31:12):
went from a work dad working athome being this more or less
sole provider.
Cecilia was homeschooling,which meant that I had longer
hours and long hours and wereless home, to be a full-time,
nomadic work at home dad with alot of time together with my
kids.
When I look at normal life andbeing a parent to a teen who
(31:36):
goes to school, I get almostshocked.
I'm like how much time do theyhave to create that connection
with your kid?
When you have a full-time job,the kids go to school full-time
and they have extracurricularactivity, they go to sport, et
cetera.
How, the people you work with,can you get them to cut out
(32:01):
these slots of time in theirlife?
Because I would be so stressedif I had led that life today
with having to take the talkswith our teens.
It is we now.
All of them have been teenagersor are teenagers, and the
emotional development they gothrough when puberty hits.
(32:23):
It is extreme.
It is, of course, a difficultperiod.
A lot of stuff happens and theamount of hours we have listened
to things and the amount ofhours we have talked with them
how do people do this in anormal rhythm.
I can't see it.
So what do you suggest?
Dr. Cameron Caswell (32:45):
So here's one of the biggest things and
this is one of the biggestmistakes I see parents make they
have limited time with theirkids and so they use that
limited time to what?
To lecture them, to tell themwhat they need to do differently
, to ask them about their grades, to ask them why they're doing
this.
And the time gets more and morelimited because the teen avoids
(33:05):
them more and more and thenthey cram more and more into
little time.
So I'm working with a dad rightnow who had well, I've worked
with several dads but that hassituation like that and so I
have.
He has now when he has thattime with his daughter.
It is about anything but thatstuff.
(33:26):
It is about fully how are you?
What's going?
What are you interested in?
She loves makeup.
Even asking her about stufflike that, about what she loves.
And I said I don't want you tospend that limited time telling
your kid what to do, which iswhy you have limited time, as it
is right, spend that limitedtime connecting with them.
(33:48):
And suddenly that time startsto grow when you're around,
because the kid now hangs out,comes to dinner, hangs out with
you.
When you have those moments, sowhen you take those even little
glimmer of moments and makethem about connection even
(34:09):
little glimmer of moments andmake them about connection.
That does it's powerful,because kids will start seeking
you out and that's what they'refinding Like.
My kid actually wants to hangout with me more now.
Wow, are the dishes all gettingdone?
No, and I go.
Well.
Which do you rather?
Have Clean dishes or aconnection where your child's
actually talking to you and youhave some influence and you know
they're okay?
Which would you rather have?
(34:31):
I've yet to have someone thatsays clean dishes right, I mean,
clean dishes would be nice, butthe thing is and I always tell
people too when it matters tothem we always say our kids are
lazy or not motivated, but it'salways when we're thinking about
they're not motivated to dowhat we're telling them to do,
because we're telling them to dothings that have zero priority
(34:54):
to them in their life, wherethere's a ton of other stuff
that are extraordinarilyimportant to them right now.
Clean dishes just isn't one ofthem.
That's okay.
We can they help.
My daughter helps a lot, butit's not a you go do this, it's
a we got to do this.
Hey, I'm doing the dishwasher.
Can you come help me and dothis side of it.
That's it, easy connection, andshe's learning About that.
Cecilie Conrad (35:20):
I don't know, it's a little thing, but I think
in many families it's a littlething but I think in many
families it's a big thing.
The chores, yeah.
One of the really goodconversations I had with one of
ours about this was when I tookthe time to make it completely
clear that when I ask a question, no is a completely okay answer
(35:43):
yes.
So if I say, can you pleasehelp me with the dishes, and she
says no, I don't have thebandwidth for that right now.
I'm not available for dishes atthe moment.
That's fine, which means it isfine.
It has to fine.
I have to be fine with thatno-transcript, as if they're
(36:16):
supposed to obey.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (36:18):
They owe us .
Cecilie Conrad (36:19):
They are supposed to obey.
Think about that for a minute.
Obey, that sounds likesomething from medieval times in
my years.
I mean, who would?
I think one of the best hacksis to think about.
You know, would you talk toyour spouse like this, would you
expect these things from yourspouse?
Jesper Conrad (36:39):
If she did what I said.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (36:40):
Yes, no, I mean, it would be great if
everyone just I think you know,everyone wants everyone else to
do what we say but, they want usto do what they say.
Cecilie Conrad (36:52):
And there's this conflict right.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (36:54):
So and I think you're right there's there
is still this belief thatobedience and respect are the
same thing, and they'reabsolutely not.
And one of the things that Isee that's very concerning is,
when we focus so much onobedience, we are not teaching a
kid to trust their own sense ofself, not to trust their gut,
(37:17):
not to be able to say no, not tospeak up or trust themselves or
have confidence, and not tothink for themselves and have
critical thinking.
All of those is what I want mydaughter to go out in the world
with.
I want my daughter to be ableto say no.
Please, be able to say no.
I see kids that aren't, and thesituations they get themselves
into is terrifying, because theydon't feel like they have the
(37:39):
right to say no.
They don't want to upset anyone.
Rather than saying I need tomake sure that I'm okay doesn't
mean I have to be mean.
I've learned how to say no in anice way.
Cecilie Conrad (37:53):
I also think we all need to work with that.
Actually, can you take a?
No?
It's.
I also think we all need towork with that.
Actually, can you take a no?
It's actually not a big deal.
No, if I ask him, would youplease make me a cup of coffee?
He's out there, he's makingcoffee for himself and he says
no, not, it's not that myhusband doesn't love me or would
never prioritize helping.
He's probably busy or justburned his hand or you know.
(38:20):
No is just one of the optionsto answer a question, and I
think we all need to do someinner work here, maybe because
we were brought up in the samekind of way, where no was a big
danger.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (38:31):
No was a no-no.
No was a no-no.
Jesper Conrad (38:36):
I really love words and would love to go back
and dig into where does the wordrespect come from, what is the
Latin original root, etc.
Because if I should read it inthe dictionary, like people see
the word, then it is respect.
That's something people give me.
(38:57):
I don't need to give it to them.
It is often a very one-sidedthing.
I demand respect, I wantrespect, but respect is
something you give others.
If you want your children torespect you, then start out by
respecting them.
Then the respect will startcoming.
Pam why did you choose thisfield, or how did it choose you?
(39:20):
What was it that attracted youto working with teens and
parents and help parents to getbetter at being with the teens?
Dr. Cameron Caswell (39:30):
It's been this like very windy, weird road
, not a direct path at all.
But I mean, personally, as ateen, I struggled and I look
back.
Personally, as a teen, Istruggled and I look back and I
have a great relationship withmy mom now.
But we fought all the time andI think, looking back, I go she
was in the, her heart was in theright place, my needs were, my
heart was in the right place andwe misunderstood each other
(39:52):
completely and so a lot of thatconflict didn't need to be if
there was that deeperunderstanding.
But I don't blame her for that,we just don't have it.
And so I was going into, I wasgetting my PhD in psychology and
I taught an adolescentpsychology class and I
absolutely loved the material.
But what I loved even more is Ihad a lot of parents actually in
(40:14):
the class because I taught anevening class and they started
coming up to me and saying myrelationship with my own
teenager has changed so muchbased on what I'm learning here
because I get them now, whydon't we have this information?
And that really got me thinkingand I just started.
I mean, at the time I was inmarketing and I just started
(40:35):
sharing information.
I wasn't a mom yet.
I had nieces and nephews.
But I just started sharinginformation with my colleagues
and they started lining up at mydoor to get information about
parenting and I'm like I lovethis, I think I'm kind of good
at it and I get it Like this isso necessary.
(40:55):
I've raised my own daughter andI've raised it based on what my
beliefs are and she's turnedinto this amazing human being
and I think a lot of it is.
I just didn't break her, whichI think is part of my parenting
philosophy.
It's just don't mess them up,Right?
That was big, big piece of mygoal.
Just don't mess her, break her.
(41:16):
And so I think, and then I juststarted doing that full time
because this is what I love, andnow I just it's everything,
it's like my heart.
I don't know.
You just kind of you get calledto something, I guess, and I
just it was, it's what I wascalled to.
Jesper Conrad (41:36):
What are the most general challenges people have
when they seek you out?
Dr. Cameron Caswell (41:42):
Most of it is the connection and they start
with a.
They'll often start with I wanta big, better connection, or
understand my teen, and then itoften narrows down to my teen's
grades are tanking.
I don't know how to get them tomotivate them.
I can't get them to do chores.
I don't know how to get them tomotivate them.
I can't get them to do chores.
I don't know how to get them tolisten to me.
They won't listen to me andit's all about how do I get my
(42:05):
teen to do what I want them todo most of the time and so they
don't always like what I have tosay and most of them want to
send me their teen and say myteen is broken.
Basically I don't say that, butit's like fix my teen and I
will say I need to work with youbecause the relationship with
your teen starts with you andthe things your teen is
(42:28):
struggling with.
A lot of it has to do with yourrelationship and how they're
seeing themselves through youreyes, because they learn who
they are and their self-identitythrough what we reflect back to
them and if we're reflectingback all the stuff that's broken
and all the stuff we areannoyed by and all the stuff
we're frustrated by that becomespart of their identity and we
(42:53):
don't reflect back all theamazingness of them.
And I've even had parents say Ican't think of one positive
thing to say about my teen.
I go well that my dear is theproblem.
That is the problem.
It's so hard, but I understand.
We get so focused and our braindoes this and it's not, it's not
our fault.
Our brain does this.
(43:14):
It looks for the problems tofix and the more we look for
problems to fix, the moreproblems we find.
And the more we focus on theproblems, the bigger the
problems get.
We get more of what we focus onand so we have gotten into a
mindset that our kids are goingto be difficult, that our kids
are going to be a challenge,that they're not going to like
(43:36):
us are going to be a challenge,that they're not going to like
us, and we go into adolescencealready with this mindset.
That is going to become aself-fulfilling prophecy.
And I see it over and overagain.
And my goal is to change themindset, not change how we
parent.
Change the mindset of why weparent the way we do, because no
matter what parenting style orparenting technique you use.
(43:56):
If your mindset is to get mykid to do what I want them to do
, the parenting strategy isgoing to fail.
Jesper Conrad (44:04):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (44:06):
Agreed.
Jesper Conrad (44:08):
I have so high hope for the future Because when
I look at how I was parentedand the generations around me
and I look at, I don't think theworld is perfect at all.
But when I look at the riverscoming of new knowledge, of more
and more people going in adirection of a more connected
(44:29):
parenting, attachment, parentingall these different styles when
I look at how my relationshipis with my children, I'm like,
oh, what will their relationshipbe with their children?
I'm almost jealous of mygrandchildren, my unborn
grandchildren.
That must be awesome, because Ihope my children will become a
(44:52):
better dad than I was when Istarted out.
It is a learning journey.
Of course it is.
It takes time to learn to be aparent, but the knowledge is
growing, it is out there and youhave been and are among the
ones spreading this knowledge.
So I wanted to end ourconversation today with asking
(45:15):
you to share with our listenershow to find you and also, yeah,
maybe one final advice orsomething yeah, so you can find
me at on on instagram, I'm at drcam caswell, um, and then my
website is askdrcamcoma-s-k-d-r-A-Mcom, and those two
(45:39):
things.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (45:39):
You will find everything about me.
The one thing that I would sayabout parenting is we are
learning beside our teenagers,and so we are not either a good
or bad parent, but we can chooseto always be a better parent,
and that requires us toconstantly learn not to be
guilty about what mistakes we'vemade in the past, because we
(46:03):
all make them.
But how do I do better todayfor my teenager and how do I
take responsibility for my partof the relationship today?
And when we start doing that,we don't have to feel guilty or
blame anyone on the situation.
We just go.
Okay, this is where I want tolearn, and we do that in every
other aspect of our lives.
(46:23):
If we're going to go do a job,we're going to study hard to do
that job.
Well, parenting is the onething that we just leave to
winging it, and that terrifiesme, because I can't think of a
more important job to get right.
So we just want to keeplearning.
Cecilie Conrad (46:40):
Yeah, I agree.
Keep questioning as well.
Keep questioning what we do.
Why do we do the things we do?
Why do we ask them to do thedishes, is it, you know, or
whatever it is?
Jesper Conrad (46:51):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (46:52):
Okay.
Cam we need to leave it here.
Jesper Conrad (46:55):
Yes, let's do it.
It has been a big pleasure.
Thanks a lot for your time, andwe will put links and show
notes and everything out therefor people.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (47:03):
I have really enjoyed this.
Thank you again for inviting meon.
so today we're together with Cameron Caswell,
who most people know as Dr Cam.
First of all, welcome to thepodcast.
It will be a pleasure alreadyis a pleasure.
We chatted a little before, butwelcome.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (00:17):
I really appreciate you guys having me.
Thank you so much for invitingme on yeah it's very nice to
meet you.
Jesper Conrad (00:24):
And I can be in doubt from time to time where to
start because there is so manyareas we could dive into.
But I fell over one of yourposts on Instagram and I was
like, oh, let's talk with Dr Camand you write and do a lot
about teenagers and we are inthe fun situation that we are
(00:47):
full-time traveling with threeteens.
Right now.
We have four children One is agrown-up and we are in Budapest
for the month where we areattending a world school pop-up
and there will be 120 travelingteens here and these are maybe
not the normal teens.
Sometimes there is no, no butthey find normal.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (01:13):
That's true , there is no normal.
Jesper Conrad (01:15):
No, but what I mean is that sometimes people
have this oh my teenager isdifficult kind of thing and it
is kind of a little differentfrom when you're together with
them all the time, likehomeschooling or unschooling or
world schooling parents.
But the subject I wanted totalk about was teens.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (01:34):
Yeah, well, that is my subject.
I'm all in on that and I thinkit's interesting.
I would love to hear from youtoo, when you're traveling with
your teenagers and homeschoolinghow does that impact your
relationship with them, do youthink?
Cecilie Conrad (01:49):
I think they rock our relationships with them
.
Actually, I think, yeah, but weunschool and basically
unschooling is all about therelation.
Yeah, so we have been buildingon.
It sounds like it's strategic,which I kind of it is not, and I
(02:11):
don't like it to sound likethat it's intentional yes,
that's a better word.
Our entire lifestyle isintentional, and the way we are
living our life with ourchildren we do it with.
There's a lot of thoughtprocess behind why we do the
things the way we are living ourlife with our children we do it
with.
There's a lot of thoughtprocess behind why we do the
things the way we do them, andthe result is that we have
(02:33):
awesome relations with our kids.
Yeah, um, I would say there is.
Oh, this sounds maybe a littletoo confident, but I mean the
things they are going through,the things that belong to the
teenage, and when it iscomplicated for them I wouldn't
(02:57):
say it's about or affected bytheir relation to us I feel like
we are the solid ground they'restanding on and we're here to
help and they trust us to helpthem, and that can be hard.
I'm not saying I have an easylife or they have an easy life,
but the relation has been thecenterpiece of our puzzle for
(03:18):
many, many years.
So now we are harvesting thegood results of an unschooling
life.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (03:23):
Love that.
Well, you guys have justsummarized my entire platform of
what we need to do as parentsright there.
It is all about relationshipand connection 100% and being
intentional about it.
So I absolutely love that andthat you're reaping the benefits
of that.
I have a teenager as well, andit is again I'm also very
(03:44):
intentional about ourrelationship and about how I
interact with her, and not in alike, oh how do I?
Cecilie Conrad (03:51):
it's just thoughtful right, it's not this
no, it's not like, how do I?
It's very authentic.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (03:59):
It's crazy authentic.
Like she sees the worst of me,she sees all sides of me.
We see all sides of each other.
It's very real.
But it's mutually respective,respectful.
It's mutually trusting, and Iknow I have to extend first the
trust, the respect, and when Ido that I get it back in spades.
(04:22):
I get so much back and so it isa very supportive, caring,
trusting relationship.
But you're right, it'sintentional, every day, every
moment.
Cecilie Conrad (04:34):
And we can grow.
I mean, I can keep growing.
That's why I stopped before,because I don't want it to sound
like I'm Madame Perfect overhere.
I'm not, and relationships arealways, in any situation, always
in somewhat complicated andneed attention and intention and
(04:56):
time.
And sometimes we have fourchildren, plus we are nomadic,
plus we are like everyone else.
We know we need to make moneyand cook meals and do stuff, and
sometimes there's just notenough of that resource, time
and something's lacking.
And so, yeah, it would beinteresting maybe to dive into
(05:20):
where do we even start?
I mean, even if we have a goodand strong relation with our
teenagers, where would be theway, the space, where do you
think the highest risk ofharming the relation is?
(05:41):
Maybe that's a better question.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (05:44):
That is, and I have a very strong answer
for that one too what I see.
It's really control when we tryto and I want to put out there
too, because you were sayingyou're an imperfect parent and
we all are and I think it'sembracing that imperfection and
(06:04):
not trying for us to be perfectbut also not trying to make our
teens perfect.
And I see that a lot, becausewe measure our success as
parents on our teen success, butwe have a preconceived notion
of what their success issupposed to look like to us, for
us to feel like we're a goodparent, to look like to us for
(06:26):
us to feel like we're a goodparent.
And so I see a lot of parentswho are in there pushing their
kids towards the type ofpotential they want them to fill
in.
So the grades and the schoolingand the different activities
and just how they presentthemselves and the clean room
and the right amount of time onsocial, all of these things we
have in our brain what theperfect child should be, and
(06:51):
none of us will say we want ourkid to be perfect, but yet in a
lot of the things that we try tocontrol, it is trying to get
them to fit into that mold ofperfection, right, even how they
talk to us, and the respect andthe everything else that comes.
But there's gonna be momentswhere we don't have that.
There's dysregulation, like Iwas saying with my daughter, we
(07:16):
have great and she'sextraordinarily respectful.
Just last night we had aconversation and her tone I did
not appreciate and it triggeredme and I was like I'm going to
stop right now, let's not talk.
And I just stopped it.
I didn't get mad at her, I justsaid I'm not, I'm not reacting
well right now to how you'resaying this.
I just want to let you know Iget what you're saying, but the
(07:38):
way you're saying it is reallyimpacting me.
So let's, let's drop it andlet's talk about it tomorrow.
And we talked about today andwe're like why were we both
upset yesterday?
The conversation wasn't evenanything to get upset about,
right, we had just put in anemotional place.
So, as the adult, I said youknow what?
I'm not going to respond wellright now, so I'm going to let
(08:01):
this go.
So we're not perfect, but we'regoing to recognize that we want
to take those moments to stepback and not try to say hey, you
don't talk to me that way.
That's not okay, because shewas emotionally dysregulated as
well and it was more of a.
I get what you're trying to say.
I'm not feeling it the way Ithink you're intending.
(08:24):
It's really striking a chord inme right now.
This isn't good right now, andshe was apologetic, but it was
still that moment.
So I think Us saying we'regonna accept what our kids are
giving us, we're going to takeaccountability for how it
impacts us, because they're not.
(08:44):
She wasn't trying to disrespectme.
There was nothing about herthat is disrespectful, but that
tone felt it.
So it's going okay, let's juststop.
Let's just stop.
That's her, this is me.
How are we going to treat it,rather than me saying you have
to behave this way to make mefeel this way, and that becomes
(09:06):
very controlling, or you need todo this, go ahead.
Cecilie Conrad (09:09):
No, I was just thinking.
Then it becomes about thebehavior.
It becomes superficial.
I noticed that in the Englishlanguage, and especially the
Americans, they use this.
You know, talk to merespectfully, show me respect,
but then it becomes this puppetshow you know 100.
Because respect is not aquestion of how you phrase your
(09:31):
words.
My kids use the f word prettyoften and that's not
disrespectful.
It's not because they don'trespect me as a person.
It just came out annoyed.
They don't maybe say itdirectly to me.
I'm just to clarify.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (09:48):
No, and I hear that.
I mean there is a different.
Cecilie Conrad (09:50):
It becomes this controlled idea about what we
see on the surface.
And I want to go back to thecontrol problem because I find
it really psychologicallyinteresting why we set up these.
You know, we have these, maybenot on the forefront of our mind
(10:10):
, but we do have checklists.
We want them to look good, wewant them to be popular, we want
them to clean their rooms, wewant them to whatever.
All these things take all theboxes and we think, okay, what
can I do to make that happen?
It becomes this push, push, pushand I think it's tied back into
actually the feeling in theparent and it's very often on a
(10:34):
subconscious level.
You know, I had this miracle inmy hands X years ago and I just
want to do my best because thismiracle is the best thing that
ever happened in the history, ofanything that ever happened,
and I want to do my best.
And then this doing my bestbecomes this systematic way of
(10:57):
doing things that we were taughtin our school years and in our
upbringing that it's about thegrades and it's about how nice
is your handwriting, do theteachers like you?
Do you wear the fashionableclothes?
Do you cut your hair in theright way, all these things.
So I think we need to unravelpretty far to find where that
(11:23):
control comes from, and itbecomes a very deep inner work.
But I know that I can also ravea little bit about this
explanation.
That it's I want to do my best.
What would my best look like?
Okay, it would look like this.
So what can I do?
And we become the pushingparents.
Maybe you have a different,other perspective on it.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (11:44):
I think that the trick is.
And then kind of what trips usup is when they're little.
We do have a.
We need to do a lot of controlright.
We are teaching them, we'remaking them safe, we're doing
all of all of the things we need.
I mean their babies, their feet.
We're doing all of that.
And when our kids become tweensand teenagers, we have to change
(12:07):
our approach, because nowthey're full humans, now they're
their own individual humans andI think we forget to separate
ourselves and so our boundariesget very blurred and we overstep
our boundaries considerablywhen it comes to our teens,
because we almost see them asand I don't think we do this
intentionally, but we see themeither as an extension of
(12:29):
ourselves or something we own,something that we're entitled to
control because they're oursand we have to separate and go.
They're not we're responsiblefor caring for them, but we are
not them.
They are completely separatehuman beings with their own
(12:51):
feelings, their own needs, theirown dreams, everything, their
own motivations, and we want toput our stuff into them, our
motivations.
We want to prioritize.
What do you want?
We want to do that, and you'reright in this mind of having
them become their best, butwe're trying to get them again
(13:12):
to be the best as we envisionthem, not the best of who
they're meant to be, and we haveto drop that.
We have to drop thoseexpectations and those pushes
and we have to be able to standby and go.
Who are you?
You're going to make mistakes.
You have to be able to stand byand go.
Who are you?
You're gonna make mistakes?
You have to.
That's the human experience, ismaking mistakes.
(13:34):
The human experience isfrustration and feeling all the
emotions across the spectrum.
That is the human experience.
We wanna give them their ownfull human experience, which
means we need to step out of itand not try to control it for
them.
We can support them, we canlove them, we can encourage them
(13:55):
, but it's not ours to pull thestrings.
That's unfair to them.
Jesper Conrad (14:03):
Cam during our conversation so far, I've been
sitting and thinking about whatkind of data was for our first
team.
So our situation was different.
We lived a different life,which meant I was a classic
going to work dad.
Now we're full time traveling,which means I work from home and
(14:27):
have so much more time togetherwith the family.
And when I look back at thatdad I was and I'm like, oh man,
you're a poor boy.
I want to give him a hug, Iwant to give him some love and I
want to say to him hey, you endup better.
Because when I look back, I'mnot necessarily proud of how I
(14:50):
was a parent.
We have a a former episode.
I unfortunately can't rememberthe name, but she introduced the
word.
I'm a recurring yeller recoveryrecovery.
I'm a recovering yeller yes, andI just was like oh, it hit hard
.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (15:08):
I'm like, oh yes, I remember trying to
parent with volume, volume heylet's parent with volume the new
book yeah, oh, a lot of peoplelove yeah no but um.
Jesper Conrad (15:25):
And then I've been thinking about what is it
for some of us dads, and thewhole different life I'm living
now, is the biggest differenceis time.
I have so much more timetogether with my teens and
unfortunately, in most familythere is this the roles are
skewed in a way where the dad isless together with the children
(15:49):
than the moms and I thinkthat's affected a lot of how,
unfortunately, we also parentand I can see the biggest change
I've done is the time and doingstuff together with my kids.
But when I look back and if Ishould be have not a negative oh
, you were a bad dad, yes, butbut trying to understand the
(16:11):
differences, then what I see isa dad who didn't have such a
deep connection to his children,and I'm not saying do my
bidding, but I'm like if Iwanted to encourage them to
something or if I wanted to helpthem move in a certain
direction, I couldn't becausethere wasn't that connection,
(16:34):
there wasn't that trust.
But I could with a negativecontrol, with the parenting by
volume, and I think it'sinteresting to look at that
difference and it led me wantingto ask you how often is dads
(16:55):
approaching, wanting to work,because I think we dads are
hopefully getting there, we aregetting better, but there is a
difference and one of the bigdifferences is time and
connection.
But there is a difference andone of the big differences is
time and connection, and I justsee a lot of parents, dads, try
(17:16):
to control by volume or shouting, or deciding and demanding.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (17:22):
Yeah, I think that's a really great
point.
And I do work with some dadsmajority's moms but I have some
dads, and the dads that I workwith are some of my favorite
clients because they're the dadsthat are like I want to break
that cycle of not having thoserelationships with our kids.
And one of the things I see isthat and we'll be honest, like
(17:47):
women tend to be more naturallynurturing and men try to be, are
more naturally like let'sproblem solve and get to the
point.
And teens don't want that.
Teens need nurturing, theydon't need to the point.
And dads start to feel left out.
They don't know how to show upfor their kids.
Right now it changes.
They were the playful dad orthey were the this dad and now
(18:09):
they don't know how to relate.
And so I see a lot of dads that, intentionally or not even
intentionally, I don't eventhink they realize it but they
start focusing on their role asprovider.
My role is provider and keepingeveryone safe, and so that's
what I'm going to do, and that'smy love.
But it's disconnected, and sothey kind of move out of the
picture.
A to do, and that's my love,but it's not just.
(18:29):
It's disconnected, and so theykind of move out of the picture
a little bit.
And the other thing I see too isa lot of times parents parent
in very different ways and sodads kind of feel ousted a bit
because they're not parentingthe way the mom wants to parent,
and so there's a lot ofconflict.
So it's like, fine, it's easierjust to step aside and I see
(18:50):
dads that are going.
I want to change that and Iwant a relationship with my
teenager because I understand,just as you said, we can try to
control Control's very surface.
Control often breeds disrespectand mistrust, not the other way
around, which decreases ourinfluence.
And parenting teenagers is allabout influence.
(19:14):
We can't make them do anything,but they can have trust and
respect in us and want to hearwhat we have to say.
And that's where we have theinfluence and that's our power.
And so, learning how to stepaside and go how do I want to
connect with my kid, regardlessof parenting style, it's
(19:34):
connection and that's what Iwant to prioritize.
Cecilie Conrad (19:40):
I think you said before that it changes when
they become teenagers.
And I remember one of the booksI read at university a hundred
years ago.
Um, it was quite interesting asa Danish professor of
developmental psychology and hesaid I'm just searching for
(20:01):
words now as it was not inEnglish he said when they are 12
, you're done with the uphoud.
There's a word that cannotreally be translated, but you
would say that is the part ofparental work that has to do
(20:29):
with you.
Take off your shoes when youenter the home.
You shake hands with people over65, whatever the social norms
are whatever, but it's like yoursocial compass, your um, where
you can do, behave where you're.
It would be all right, in therelation with the children, to
(20:50):
tell them what to do.
That's actually what it is itis.
I mean, if my husband told mewhat to do, that would be really
weird, right?
Yeah, it would also be reallyweird if I told my 19-year-old
son what to do.
But when they have a vehiclejust a piece of information
you're passing on, because theyactually don't know at this
(21:12):
point that you're supposed totake your shoes off when you
enter x, y, z room.
Um, so at.
And he said stop when they're12, which is a kind of radical
because it's also the word forbringing up children in our
language.
But really what he meant wasyou do the work before they are
12 and after that, the onlything you have left is trust.
(21:36):
If they don't trust you at thispoint, they're flying, it's too
late.
Everything you have to you doyou do it before they are 12.
And I kind of wanted to go backto that because you said before
it changes when they areteenagers, and I agree, but on
the other hand, I would say theminute you you spit them out is
(21:58):
when you start working on thattrust thing.
Oh, 100 percent, 100 percent.
They need all that freedom andall that respect from day one of
who they are, what they need,how they are different from
other people and and and whatour role is to keep them safe.
Basically, yeah, um, not tocontrol their behavior, but we
(22:22):
can pass on the culture, whichis that word I was looking for
yeah, and and the social norms.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (22:28):
Obviously, like you can't, you don't want
to go into somebody's house andjump on their furniture.
You know the basic, you knowyou want to.
Cecilie Conrad (22:35):
you want to talk to people, yeah.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (22:37):
Yeah, people talk to you.
You want to look at them in anodd, like those things,
absolutely, and I think when wetry to continue to control them
when they're older, we then sendthe message that you are not an
okay human being, that we don'ttrust you to figure these
things out, that we still andwhat happens as well, and what
(22:58):
I'm seeing a lot of is we thenwe basically undermine their own
confidence and self-trust inthemselves as well, and they
stop learning how to thinkcritically and figuring things
out.
There's this learnedhelplessness of I don't know
what to do or I'm going to blameyou if I mess up because you're
(23:18):
telling me what to do all thetime, so it's got to be your
fault and they don't learn howto do it on their own or to
trust themselves.
And so what you were saying andI love is even at a very young
age, teaching them to trustthemselves is.
And so what you were saying andI love is even at a very young
age, teaching them to trustthemselves is so important.
And my like with my daughter,she made her own decisions of
what she wore, of what, like somany different things, and she
(23:42):
would go I love sharing.
She would go into the school orgo into we'd go shopping and
her shoes would be on the wrongfeet.
She always put her shoes on thewrong feet, but she put them on
herself and people would stopme and go your daughter's shoes
are on the wrong feet, I'm likeI know.
Thank you, she put them onherself right.
So she had this sense ofindependence and self-agency
(24:06):
from a very early age and now,when she's older, she's
extraordinarily competent, rightand entrusting in herself, but
also extremely trustful andrespectful of me.
And so we've got that.
But you're right, we'venurtured that from day one.
It's been you are you right.
Cecilie Conrad (24:27):
Yeah, the other thing is really.
So we're talking.
It sounds I'm I'm exaggeratinga little bit now, but it sounds
almost strategic.
We need them to trust us so westill have some sort of control
or influence when they'reteenagers, so that it doesn't
blow up and become ugly.
But actually it's also onlyfair, right?
(24:48):
I, this is a human being,brought into this world 24 hours
old, two years old, five yearsold, something like that.
And now they're telling you Iwant my shoes on, like this, or
I don't like peas, or I can'tsleep, or you know, maybe they
(25:11):
cry something's off and you'relike it can't be off.
Everything's perfect becauseI've done all the things from
the book, but it can be off.
And so their experience you usethe wording human experience.
Their human experience startsas soon as they're human and
they need to have a space tolive in that and to be.
(25:32):
There's so much batch thinkingabout children, so when they are
three, they need to whatever.
Oh, that's the worst.
Could they please just havesome space to live their life
from the beginning of their life?
Yeah, please just have somespace to live their life from
the beginning of their life,yeah, and?
And if we do this, then itbecomes a question not of you.
Don't talk like that.
Here it's more um, let meexplain to you.
(25:55):
We are in a, let's say, placeof worship from a different
culture than our own.
We're guests here to see theartwork, but we have to be also
respectful, and in this culture,no one speaks.
In this room.
You might hear all the othertourists talk, but we don't do
that because that isdisrespectful for the place that
(26:18):
we're visiting.
This is why I'm now asking youto be quiet for the next 10
minutes.
That's a completely differentparenting style than shut up.
Shut up, yeah, and also maybeeven give the child the choice
If you don't like being in thisroom, if it makes you
uncomfortable, we can leave, butif you want to be in here and
(26:39):
see the artwork and that's theway we've been trying to do it
all along and I am not perfect.
That's not just a strategy.
That is also giving space forsomeone else to be in their life
on the journey that we have toshare for a while, because we
(26:59):
happen to be the parents andthey're not old enough to fly
yet, fortunately, I love thatbecause I think one of the
things we have this weird beliefthat kids are supposed to
change to make our lives moreconvenient, and when our kids
make our lives inconvenient, weget upset with them.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (27:20):
How dare you have a bad mood when I want
to have a good mood, how dareyou say something or not want to
do something that I want to doand we get mad and we want to
change that because they'reruining, and we've got to
separate and go.
Well, we're ruining them theirtime because they don't want to
(27:41):
do this.
So we've got to understand likethey've got their own
boundaries, we've got our ownboundaries.
They've got what their needsare, we've got our needs.
They don't always align and, asthe parent, as the adult, guess
what we have to be the matureone and go.
How do we adapt to this?
Not how do you adapt to me.
How do I, as the mature adult,adapt to you and help you learn
(28:07):
to figure this out?
Because I know how to regulatemy emotions.
Hopefully, I know how and Iwill have other opportunities to
do this but you, I'm teachingyou and I'm modeling for you
what that looks like to becompassionate to other people
and to understand that otherpeople have different needs than
I do, and so we need to stopsaying our kid needs to behave a
certain way to make me okay.
I hear parents say well, theymade me mad, well, they made me
(28:32):
and I lost it, and I go.
Well, you made your child loseit way before that and now
you're mad at them, so why can'tthey be mad at you for doing
the exact same thing?
You're mad at them for right.
They're struggling directly,but so are you, so use that for
empathy but, it's just a hugediscourse that's out there, like
this story.
Cecilie Conrad (28:54):
You just keep hearing it, just like teenagers
are horrible and it's horribleyears.
I disagree completely oh, metoo, 100 there's this other
story that is kind of a I don'tknow, is it a narrative that
they are annoying, that it'sirritating to be a parent.
Jesper Conrad (29:14):
That they trigger you.
Cecilie Conrad (29:16):
That you know.
Oh, there's this task.
Oh, the kids they never.
There's this way of talkingabout the element of life that
it is to have children at home,where it's always about how, all
the things they don't do andhow annoying it is.
And now you have to do.
(29:37):
I just shared with you, beforewe started the recording, that I
had to clean the entire kitchenthe moment I walked in and that
was really annoying, but it'sjust, and it is, of course,
sometimes annoying, but at thesame time, this whole song hey,
wait a minute, we had thatmiracle in our hands eight years
ago and it's still a miracle.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (29:58):
Well, because teenagers now are
thinking for themselves andparents and I understand why
(30:30):
no-transcript giving themownership and so they fight back
harder because they're tryingto have agency over their lives
and we're trying to take controlover something that's not ours
to control and they're saying no.
And that's where this, so muchof this tension, comes from.
Jesper Conrad (30:50):
Yeah, we're just making the gap bigger and bigger
for some, some parents andluckily, cam.
I wanted to talk with you abouttime and also a why you went
into this uh you know.
So, uh, regarding time, that'swhy I shared our story about I
(31:12):
went from a work dad working athome being this more or less
sole provider.
Cecilia was homeschooling,which meant that I had longer
hours and long hours and wereless home, to be a full-time,
nomadic work at home dad with alot of time together with my
kids.
When I look at normal life andbeing a parent to a teen who
(31:36):
goes to school, I get almostshocked.
I'm like how much time do theyhave to create that connection
with your kid?
When you have a full-time job,the kids go to school full-time
and they have extracurricularactivity, they go to sport, et
cetera.
How, the people you work with,can you get them to cut out
(32:01):
these slots of time in theirlife?
Because I would be so stressedif I had led that life today
with having to take the talkswith our teens.
It is we now.
All of them have been teenagersor are teenagers, and the
emotional development they gothrough when puberty hits.
(32:23):
It is extreme.
It is, of course, a difficultperiod.
A lot of stuff happens and theamount of hours we have listened
to things and the amount ofhours we have talked with them
how do people do this in anormal rhythm.
I can't see it.
So what do you suggest?
Dr. Cameron Caswell (32:45):
So here's one of the biggest things and
this is one of the biggestmistakes I see parents make they
have limited time with theirkids and so they use that
limited time to what?
To lecture them, to tell themwhat they need to do differently
, to ask them about their grades, to ask them why they're doing
this.
And the time gets more and morelimited because the teen avoids
(33:05):
them more and more and thenthey cram more and more into
little time.
So I'm working with a dad rightnow who had well, I've worked
with several dads but that hassituation like that and so I
have.
He has now when he has thattime with his daughter.
It is about anything but thatstuff.
(33:26):
It is about fully how are you?
What's going?
What are you interested in?
She loves makeup.
Even asking her about stufflike that, about what she loves.
And I said I don't want you tospend that limited time telling
your kid what to do, which iswhy you have limited time, as it
is right, spend that limitedtime connecting with them.
(33:48):
And suddenly that time startsto grow when you're around,
because the kid now hangs out,comes to dinner, hangs out with
you.
When you have those moments, sowhen you take those even little
glimmer of moments and makethem about connection even
(34:09):
little glimmer of moments andmake them about connection.
That does it's powerful,because kids will start seeking
you out and that's what they'refinding Like.
My kid actually wants to hangout with me more now.
Wow, are the dishes all gettingdone?
No, and I go.
Well.
Which do you rather?
Have Clean dishes or aconnection where your child's
actually talking to you and youhave some influence and you know
they're okay?
Which would you rather have?
(34:31):
I've yet to have someone thatsays clean dishes right, I mean,
clean dishes would be nice, butthe thing is and I always tell
people too when it matters tothem we always say our kids are
lazy or not motivated, but it'salways when we're thinking about
they're not motivated to dowhat we're telling them to do,
because we're telling them to dothings that have zero priority
(34:54):
to them in their life, wherethere's a ton of other stuff
that are extraordinarilyimportant to them right now.
Clean dishes just isn't one ofthem.
That's okay.
We can they help.
My daughter helps a lot, butit's not a you go do this, it's
a we got to do this.
Hey, I'm doing the dishwasher.
Can you come help me and dothis side of it.
That's it, easy connection, andshe's learning About that.
Cecilie Conrad (35:20):
I don't know, it's a little thing, but I think
in many families it's a littlething but I think in many
families it's a big thing.
The chores, yeah.
One of the really goodconversations I had with one of
ours about this was when I tookthe time to make it completely
clear that when I ask a question, no is a completely okay answer
(35:43):
yes.
So if I say, can you pleasehelp me with the dishes, and she
says no, I don't have thebandwidth for that right now.
I'm not available for dishes atthe moment.
That's fine, which means it isfine.
It has to fine.
I have to be fine with thatno-transcript, as if they're
(36:16):
supposed to obey.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (36:18):
They owe us .
Cecilie Conrad (36:19):
They are supposed to obey.
Think about that for a minute.
Obey, that sounds likesomething from medieval times in
my years.
I mean, who would?
I think one of the best hacksis to think about.
You know, would you talk toyour spouse like this, would you
expect these things from yourspouse?
Jesper Conrad (36:39):
If she did what I said.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (36:40):
Yes, no, I mean, it would be great if
everyone just I think you know,everyone wants everyone else to
do what we say but, they want usto do what they say.
Cecilie Conrad (36:52):
And there's this conflict right.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (36:54):
So and I think you're right there's there
is still this belief thatobedience and respect are the
same thing, and they'reabsolutely not.
And one of the things that Isee that's very concerning is,
when we focus so much onobedience, we are not teaching a
kid to trust their own sense ofself, not to trust their gut,
(37:17):
not to be able to say no, not tospeak up or trust themselves or
have confidence, and not tothink for themselves and have
critical thinking.
All of those is what I want mydaughter to go out in the world
with.
I want my daughter to be ableto say no.
Please, be able to say no.
I see kids that aren't, and thesituations they get themselves
into is terrifying, because theydon't feel like they have the
(37:39):
right to say no.
They don't want to upset anyone.
Rather than saying I need tomake sure that I'm okay doesn't
mean I have to be mean.
I've learned how to say no in anice way.
Cecilie Conrad (37:53):
I also think we all need to work with that.
Actually, can you take a?
No?
It's.
I also think we all need towork with that.
Actually, can you take a no?
It's actually not a big deal.
No, if I ask him, would youplease make me a cup of coffee?
He's out there, he's makingcoffee for himself and he says
no, not, it's not that myhusband doesn't love me or would
never prioritize helping.
He's probably busy or justburned his hand or you know.
(38:20):
No is just one of the optionsto answer a question, and I
think we all need to do someinner work here, maybe because
we were brought up in the samekind of way, where no was a big
danger.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (38:31):
No was a no-no.
No was a no-no.
Jesper Conrad (38:36):
I really love words and would love to go back
and dig into where does the wordrespect come from, what is the
Latin original root, etc.
Because if I should read it inthe dictionary, like people see
the word, then it is respect.
That's something people give me.
(38:57):
I don't need to give it to them.
It is often a very one-sidedthing.
I demand respect, I wantrespect, but respect is
something you give others.
If you want your children torespect you, then start out by
respecting them.
Then the respect will startcoming.
Pam why did you choose thisfield, or how did it choose you?
(39:20):
What was it that attracted youto working with teens and
parents and help parents to getbetter at being with the teens?
Dr. Cameron Caswell (39:30):
It's been this like very windy, weird road
, not a direct path at all.
But I mean, personally, as ateen, I struggled and I look
back.
Personally, as a teen, Istruggled and I look back and I
have a great relationship withmy mom now.
But we fought all the time andI think, looking back, I go she
was in the, her heart was in theright place, my needs were, my
heart was in the right place andwe misunderstood each other
(39:52):
completely and so a lot of thatconflict didn't need to be if
there was that deeperunderstanding.
But I don't blame her for that,we just don't have it.
And so I was going into, I wasgetting my PhD in psychology and
I taught an adolescentpsychology class and I
absolutely loved the material.
But what I loved even more is Ihad a lot of parents actually in
(40:14):
the class because I taught anevening class and they started
coming up to me and saying myrelationship with my own
teenager has changed so muchbased on what I'm learning here
because I get them now, whydon't we have this information?
And that really got me thinkingand I just started.
I mean, at the time I was inmarketing and I just started
(40:35):
sharing information.
I wasn't a mom yet.
I had nieces and nephews.
But I just started sharinginformation with my colleagues
and they started lining up at mydoor to get information about
parenting and I'm like I lovethis, I think I'm kind of good
at it and I get it Like this isso necessary.
(40:55):
I've raised my own daughter andI've raised it based on what my
beliefs are and she's turnedinto this amazing human being
and I think a lot of it is.
I just didn't break her, whichI think is part of my parenting
philosophy.
It's just don't mess them up,Right?
That was big, big piece of mygoal.
Just don't mess her, break her.
(41:16):
And so I think, and then I juststarted doing that full time
because this is what I love, andnow I just it's everything,
it's like my heart.
I don't know.
You just kind of you get calledto something, I guess, and I
just it was, it's what I wascalled to.
Jesper Conrad (41:36):
What are the most general challenges people have
when they seek you out?
Dr. Cameron Caswell (41:42):
Most of it is the connection and they start
with a.
They'll often start with I wanta big, better connection, or
understand my teen, and then itoften narrows down to my teen's
grades are tanking.
I don't know how to get them tomotivate them.
I can't get them to do chores.
I don't know how to get them tomotivate them.
I can't get them to do chores.
I don't know how to get them tolisten to me.
They won't listen to me andit's all about how do I get my
(42:05):
teen to do what I want them todo most of the time and so they
don't always like what I have tosay and most of them want to
send me their teen and say myteen is broken.
Basically I don't say that, butit's like fix my teen and I
will say I need to work with youbecause the relationship with
your teen starts with you andthe things your teen is
(42:28):
struggling with.
A lot of it has to do with yourrelationship and how they're
seeing themselves through youreyes, because they learn who
they are and their self-identitythrough what we reflect back to
them and if we're reflectingback all the stuff that's broken
and all the stuff we areannoyed by and all the stuff
we're frustrated by that becomespart of their identity and we
(42:53):
don't reflect back all theamazingness of them.
And I've even had parents say Ican't think of one positive
thing to say about my teen.
I go well that my dear is theproblem.
That is the problem.
It's so hard, but I understand.
We get so focused and our braindoes this and it's not, it's not
our fault.
Our brain does this.
(43:14):
It looks for the problems tofix and the more we look for
problems to fix, the moreproblems we find.
And the more we focus on theproblems, the bigger the
problems get.
We get more of what we focus onand so we have gotten into a
mindset that our kids are goingto be difficult, that our kids
are going to be a challenge,that they're not going to like
(43:36):
us are going to be a challenge,that they're not going to like
us, and we go into adolescencealready with this mindset.
That is going to become aself-fulfilling prophecy.
And I see it over and overagain.
And my goal is to change themindset, not change how we
parent.
Change the mindset of why weparent the way we do, because no
matter what parenting style orparenting technique you use.
(43:56):
If your mindset is to get mykid to do what I want them to do
, the parenting strategy isgoing to fail.
Jesper Conrad (44:04):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (44:06):
Agreed.
Jesper Conrad (44:08):
I have so high hope for the future Because when
I look at how I was parentedand the generations around me
and I look at, I don't think theworld is perfect at all.
But when I look at the riverscoming of new knowledge, of more
and more people going in adirection of a more connected
(44:29):
parenting, attachment, parentingall these different styles when
I look at how my relationshipis with my children, I'm like,
oh, what will their relationshipbe with their children?
I'm almost jealous of mygrandchildren, my unborn
grandchildren.
That must be awesome, because Ihope my children will become a
(44:52):
better dad than I was when Istarted out.
It is a learning journey.
Of course it is.
It takes time to learn to be aparent, but the knowledge is
growing, it is out there and youhave been and are among the
ones spreading this knowledge.
So I wanted to end ourconversation today with asking
(45:15):
you to share with our listenershow to find you and also, yeah,
maybe one final advice orsomething yeah, so you can find
me at on on instagram, I'm at drcam caswell, um, and then my
website is askdrcamcoma-s-k-d-r-A-Mcom, and those two
(45:39):
things.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (45:39):
You will find everything about me.
The one thing that I would sayabout parenting is we are
learning beside our teenagers,and so we are not either a good
or bad parent, but we can chooseto always be a better parent,
and that requires us toconstantly learn not to be
guilty about what mistakes we'vemade in the past, because we
(46:03):
all make them.
But how do I do better todayfor my teenager and how do I
take responsibility for my partof the relationship today?
And when we start doing that,we don't have to feel guilty or
blame anyone on the situation.
We just go.
Okay, this is where I want tolearn, and we do that in every
other aspect of our lives.
(46:23):
If we're going to go do a job,we're going to study hard to do
that job.
Well, parenting is the onething that we just leave to
winging it, and that terrifiesme, because I can't think of a
more important job to get right.
So we just want to keeplearning.
Cecilie Conrad (46:40):
Yeah, I agree.
Keep questioning as well.
Keep questioning what we do.
Why do we do the things we do?
Why do we ask them to do thedishes, is it, you know, or
whatever it is?
Jesper Conrad (46:51):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (46:52):
Okay.
Cam we need to leave it here.
Jesper Conrad (46:55):
Yes, let's do it.
It has been a big pleasure.
Thanks a lot for your time, andwe will put links and show
notes and everything out therefor people.
Dr. Cameron Caswell (47:03):
I have really enjoyed this.
Thank you again for inviting meon.
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