May 6, 2025 • 28 mins
Outschool founder Amir Nathoo explains why education built on passion—not curriculum—may be the only way to truly prepare kids for a rapidly changing world. We talk about his shift from traditional schooling in the UK to building Outschool, how becoming a parent deepened his beliefs, and why interest-led learning offers more than just flexibility—it offers resilience.
Amir shares the emotional challenge of stepping away from conventional paths, how Outschool helps parents manage fears without compromising child-led learning, and why AI is forcing us to rethink what human intelligence really is. We also get into the science of farts, cat anatomy, and mock stock trading—and why those classes matter more than you think.
🔗 Connect with Amir Nathoo
🔗 Outschool
- https://outschool.com
- https://www.facebook.com/outschool
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- https://www.youtube.com/outschool
🗓️ Recorded May 6th, 2025. 📍 Budapest, Hungary
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:00):
Today we are together with Amir Natu, who has
founded Outschool, so, first ofall, welcome.
It's good to have time with youtoday.
Amir Nathoo (00:08):
Thanks so much.
It's great to be talking to you.
Jesper Conrad (00:11):
I am curious about how your project started,
but maybe you should give like aone-minute short.
What is Outschool?
So people know what we aretalking about.
Amir Nathoo (00:22):
Absolutely so.
Outschool provides onlineclasses for kids, and these are
classes that meet live overvideo chat, and they can be
one-on-one classes with astudent and a teacher, or group
classes, so kids can join fromanywhere in the country,
anywhere in the world, andconnect with teachers and other
(00:43):
students who share theirinterests, and we offer it as a
marketplace.
So teachers create a very, verybroad range of classes,
everything from core academicsto enrichments and everything in
between, and this is for agesthree to 18.
Jesper Conrad (00:59):
Yeah, but what was your interest?
How did the idea occur?
Are you yourself inside thehomeschool movement?
Because a lot of homeschoolersstarted out with finding your
service.
So what happened in your lifethat led you down to creating
this?
Amir Nathoo (01:17):
I founded the company in 2015.
And there was a lot ofinfluences, including my own
personal experience, but I had avery traditional education in
England growing up.
I went to an excellentstate-funded school and then I
studied engineering at Cambridge.
But I also had two parents whowere teachers and they really
(01:39):
helped me pursue interestsoutside of school.
And as I grew older and saw thechanges in the world and went
through my entrepreneurialcareer, I started to realize how
important that had been for meAll the learning that happened
outside of regular schooling.
For example, they helped mepursue my interest in computers
(01:59):
with computer science lessons,and this was before it became
clear that programming computerscience was going to be a really
big deal.
I just did it because I becameinterested to learn how to
program games after playinggames and I started to realize
that what I wanted for my ownkids and I now have a
six-year-old and athree-year-old was actually
different from the traditionaleducation that I received.
(02:22):
Because of all the changes thatI've seen in the world of work
and the trends that I sawhappening in the world, I just
no longer believed that justgoing to a traditional school
and getting good grades andgoing to college was what was
needed for the future for mykids to be happy and successful.
And I also started to think ifI'm thinking this way, I believe
many more families are going tostart to feel this way, and
(02:44):
over the last 10 years, you canreally see that happen.
Our world is changing so fastand it's accelerating, and in
order to future-proof our kids'education, we can't just expect
that sending them to aninstitution whose design has not
fundamentally changed inhundreds of years and with
centrally set curriculum isgoing to work.
(03:05):
That's not how to future-proofyour education.
I think even for families whohaven't yet taken a step to act
on these ideas, the feeling ofanxiety is rising.
They can sense it, we can allsense it that these traditional
models just are not going to beapplicable for the future.
And that got me thinking aboutwell, what does a future-proof
(03:26):
education look like?
How are we going to deliverthis?
And that was a key inspirationbehind OutSchool.
Cecilie Conrad (03:31):
Do you think we really can future-proof an
education?
Amir Nathoo (03:36):
Well, it's hard right, because if you believe in
fast change and acceleration,then how are you going to design
an education today that you canguarantee is going to meet the
needs of the future in 20 years'time?
And I think we need to havemuch more humility than we
typically do in education.
(03:57):
We have to realize that ourassumptions about the skills and
the knowledge that are going tobe needed in that time frame
are probably wrong, and I thinkthat's the core insight.
We can't expect to define acurriculum with specific skills
and knowledge and expect that toget it exactly right, or even
mostly right, for the needs ofthe future.
(04:17):
So that's where our missioncomes in and how we think about
it.
We think that if it's very hardto predict the future, the most
important thing we can do forour kids is make sure that they
love learning, that they havethe confidence, the motivation,
the ability to learn, so thenwhatever they need in the future
, they're able to learn forthemselves, and that's far more
(04:40):
important than learning anyparticular subject or gaining
any particular skill.
Now, that's not to say it's notimportant that kids get the
experience of getting mastery insomething, but the purpose is
the process of learning, tobuild confidence in that process
and their own ability toexercise that process.
And so that's in practice iswhy we build the product the way
(05:03):
we do because to provide thistremendous variety of learning
opportunities allows kids andfamilies to customize, to pursue
interests, to go down differentand differentiated paths and,
as a result, increase their loveof learning.
Jesper Conrad (05:17):
I have a question , but first a short anecdote.
When I grew up I talked with mydad about education because I
wanted a more creative path, apath down filmmaking and I made
an amateur feature film when Iwas 16 and an animation film
that were in a lot of festivals.
And then I started writinginside journalism and I talked
(05:41):
with him about it because itwould have been a normal
trajectory for me to go to highschool and university and down
that road.
But I talked with my dad.
I was like I'm not sure I wantto go to university and he said
the field he ended up working inwasn't invented when he was
(06:02):
educated, which made me look ateducation in a fun way, because
it's the same with what I do.
I work inside online marketingand when I grew up there was no
such field.
I started working online whenthere was a CD-ROM and there was
no loudspeaker, so if youwanted to make a multimedia
(06:23):
project online, people wouldn'tbe able to consume it.
And now here we are talkingover Zoom some 30 years later,
and it is just working.
Amir Nathoo (06:33):
At the start of my college experience, no one had
mobile phones, or very few.
By the end, four years later,pretty much everyone had a
mobile phone, but no one yet hadcomputers in their room.
And then, a few years later,all the students have computers
in their room and Facebook was athing.
And this experience that youpoint out is going to become
more and more common when peopleare getting jobs and having
(06:54):
careers that did not exist whenthey're growing up, and that's,
you know, that's a function ofacceleration.
Jesper Conrad (07:00):
And I have a question to you about.
You started this platformbefore you were a father and now
you have stepped into thatarena some years ago and have
this changed what you areoffering on the platform?
Have they changed your ownperspective on learning to see
them grow up right there infront of you?
Amir Nathoo (07:22):
It was so fun on my son's third birthday, which is
the youngest age that can takeclasses.
This was about six years intobuilding the company he took his
first out-school classes andfortunately he loved them.
But this was a very riskymoment for me because I'd spent
all this time building thiscompany and having all these
classes in the hope that itwould be my kids would actually
(07:43):
like it.
Luckily, now they both do, bothmy son and my daughter, my
six-year-old and three-year-old.
So it was wonderful to see thatplay out and I think that our
strategy and fundamental kind ofcore beliefs, which I've shared
a little bit of here, haven'treally changed.
But I think there's been somepunctuation points or some new
(08:05):
revelations for me personally asmy kids have engaged with the
platform and as I've started tohave to make decisions about my
kids' education.
One of those was that, asalternative, as my philosophies
are, to really make a decision,to take a different path for
your child, it's very hard tolet go of the worry that I use,
(08:27):
even when you believe everythingthat I do and you work in the
field.
And at the start of thisjourney, before having kids, my
wife was familiar with ideasbehind homeschooling and
alternative education, butwasn't as extreme as me.
But now she has almost becomemore actually seeing our kids.
But the decision to send our sonto a very alternative school
(08:49):
was a hard one.
We said are we crazy here?
We're not going to send him tothe excellent traditional school
.
Down the road we exploredbuilding a micro school with
some friends, so essentially ahomeschool co-op.
But then we luckily found avery alternative, self-directed
school in San Francisco.
But even believing everything, Ido just the emotional burden
and the feeling of risk.
(09:11):
But that's actually one thingthat was unexpected about how
our platform, outschool, canhelp with that, because I also
started to realize hang on, ifI'm really worried about his
math or his cool reading, I canjust have him take an online
class for that.
It doesn't mean I have to sendhim to a traditional school.
I can just mitigate my worries.
(09:31):
And fortunately he likes math,he likes numbers.
So I just got him a math classat our school and so with very
little intervention I could bothsatisfy my worries and give him
a learning opportunity that fithis interests and that is
delivering immense results.
So you don't need to gear akid's entire schooling around
(09:53):
the kind of fears of the parent.
You can flip it on its head andsay make most of your decisions
from the point of view of thekid's self-direction and their
ability to pursue projects, andthen, insofar as you, the parent
, have remaining concerns, findother ways to help them.
So that was one kind ofrelation for me.
Cecilie Conrad (10:11):
Well, it is wild , the fear and concern thing and
how it affects us as parents,and I think there is a huge
momentum going on from thecontext that we all live in and
the historical wheels just keepturning, with everybody's been
in school, schools it's such abig deal.
So if you start doing it in adifferent way, it really rocks
(10:32):
the boat and we we all have thatexperience of worry and we need
to get over that.
I think it's.
There are many ways.
I don't know, you know, but weare unschoolers and we have now
teenagers who would have beengraduated high school if they
had been in school.
So we're like the other end ofthat.
(10:52):
So we worked a lot with thisthing.
I think the core thing, thereally important element, the
future-proofing thing that youtalked about To never stop
loving to learn, to support ourchildren in their passions
around what really makes sensefor them and how.
(11:15):
Learning is not actually aboutthe future.
It's about really wanting andlearning needing.
Being so absorbed in the thingright, you can't stop talking
about it, you just want toexplore it.
I think for us it's been veryimportant that our children
don't need to explain why theyneed to learn something.
(11:36):
It's not because I want to bean engineer or because I want to
whatever.
It's not about career andfuture.
It's about passion.
I happen to be in a field thatwas invented at the same time as
our species and will go onbeing the same.
I'm a psychologist.
That doesn't change.
I mean, the context changes, ofcourse, but and I enjoyed my 10
(11:58):
years at university I'm verytraditionally educated.
I love being an academic and Ithink there's a case to be made
for this whole thing.
But it all came from thepassion of learning.
So if we can keep our childrenin that passionate space and
maybe we do our inner work withthe fear, I think that would be.
(12:20):
I do my part and they do theirpart.
And out-schooled has a goodLots of people in our community
use it because we are anunschooling family and I can
only help my children so far inlearning the things they want to
learn.
There are things I know nothingabout and, more importantly, I
cannot find a passion for it.
(12:42):
Lots of things my kids want tolearn.
I can find a passion for it andexplore it with them and be
like, yeah, totally, let's diveinto this, whereas some things I
can't give up, you know.
And then I have platforms likeOutschool and other resources.
You know.
If you want to learn this,please go over there, where you
can find someone.
Amir Nathoo (13:03):
Absolutely, and that's the kind of flexibility
and support that we want tooffer to enable kids to follow
different paths, to providefamilies with the option to add
supplements and add to theirkids' learning experience, but
do it in a flexible way thatdoesn't require you to enroll
for a whole semester or you cancommit subject by subject or
(13:25):
teacher by teacher, or smalleror larger commitments.
That flexibility is critical.
I think a key problem in ourworld right now and you see this
in education is that we builtall these structures in our
human society, these reallycomplex, static structures, in
order to enable humanity toscale in various different ways,
(13:45):
using the technology of theindustrial revolution, and we've
turned ourselves and oursociety into machines, because
that was what was needed.
That was the kind of winningstrategy for the technology at
the time.
But now we have AI and I reallythink we're coming to the point
where human society is comingto the end of that road.
(14:08):
We can automate all therepetitive stuff at a much lower
cost than ever before, and thattrend is just going to keep on
continuing.
So then, what does it mean to behuman?
What does it mean to add valuefor each other as humans in a
world of AI and I really thinkit's going to be a massive
(14:30):
accelerant of this realizationthat we have to tear down these
structures that have served uswonderfully as humanity to get
to a certain point, but they'regoing to get in our way.
We don't need humans who aremachines.
We have machines that can bemachines now, and humanity and
humans used to mimic.
The machines then automatethemselves away, and that was a
(14:52):
great strategy for humanity todevelop.
Now that automation can go offand automate itself it's great
it's great, we get to do what'sreally important.
Cecilie Conrad (15:03):
Now we get to step up and be clear on, because
ai can only take us so far.
We actually do have to thinkfor ourselves.
In the cacophony of all thestuff out there, ai can keep
spamming us with ideas and listsand reviews and stuff, but we
are the humans and we are theones to know, with our head,
(15:26):
heart and body combined, what'sup with this life and where do
we want to take it and what arethe real challenges we have on
this planet as humanity and howcan we?
We need a lot of brain power tosolve the problems that we're
facing.
Let's I'm not trying to besuper negative, but, but I mean
(15:46):
world peace would be kind ofnice and green grass for our
great-grandchildren would alsobe.
I prefer to look into a futurelike that and we need to work on
that.
I think it's great that ai cando some of the heavy lifting or
some of the boring stuff.
I mean even small things liketranscripts.
(16:08):
Oh yes, I almost start cryingwhen I think about how many
hours I put into transcripts atuniversity and now you're just
done.
Yeah.
Jesper Conrad (16:18):
One of the things I really love is learning from
people who are passionate aboutsomething.
I believe that every personactually can have something to
teach you, and it's wonderful tolisten to people if they're
knowledgeable and passionateabout it.
For example, in the homeschoolenvironment in Denmark, we often
(16:38):
hung out with someone who had akid at the same age and one of
the people there.
We didn't have a lot ofinterest in common.
This guy was a programmer and Iwas like, ok, I need to ask him
about something he's interestedin, because our normal
conversation didn't flow.
So I ended up asking him aboutwhat he was working on and it
showed that he had figured outthat there's a radio signal on
(17:00):
modern cars' tires so it cantell the car when it runs out of
air.
And then he had put upsomething and measured the cars
driving by him and then everyhalf year could see when someone
went from winter tires tosummer tires.
And I'm just like this was soweird but so fun and the details
of what I learned from thatconversation was wonderful.
(17:21):
But so what I'm trying to leadover to is when people are
passionate, listening to themabout what they want to share is
fantastic.
So my question to you is whatis the most outlandish weird
cause on your platform that youhave seen where you have been
like?
Is there really anyone whowants to teach this?
(17:43):
And there's people who want tolearn this.
What's going on?
Amir Nathoo (17:47):
oh wow, at most our language, that's hard right
because it's positively meant,it's not I can share some things
because we tell our teachersteach the way you've always
wanted to teach the things thatyou're passionate about, because
how do you create love oflearning and great learning
experiences when the teacherreally cares?
So I totally agree with allthat passion.
I always like to cite thescience of farts.
(18:08):
We saw a first class on thescience of farts.
We saw a first class on thescience of farts.
Cecilie Conrad (18:13):
You recently.
Yeah, take the same class.
We've got a new client as oftoday.
Yeah, we'll take it.
Amir Nathoo (18:19):
It's turned into a category Now there's multiple
ones.
And then my son took this classwhen he was on holiday break.
It was about urine and sayingthe composition and cultural
history of urine and he foundthis hilariously funny and it
was good science as well.
It was good science and theparents loved it too.
It was just like oh well, thekids want to take science of
farts and learn about the humanbody and then also the chemistry
(18:42):
and the health elements of it.
It's exactly that kind of thingthat's excellent.
It's also a little bit edgy.
That is going to hook a kid in.
I also love citing the kind ofcat anatomy taught by a vet.
So this isn't a traditionallyqualified teacher but just
someone who professionally knowsa lot about the subject.
And many kids are passionateabout pets.
You know.
Some are interested in pursuingkind of medicine or learning
(19:05):
more.
It's very attractive.
Financial stock trading likemock stock trading for kids.
I mean I don't think they'reallowed to do it on these
payments platforms, but I thinkif kids were to form a hedge
fund, they'd run rings aroundadults.
I mean, if you think about howgood they are at games compared
with adults, I think putting inkids in charge of a financial
system might yield results.
(19:26):
These are the kind of thingsthat stand out to me.
Jesper Conrad (19:29):
But also just the fact that there are people who
want to learn it and people whowant to offer it also shows
something about how limited theschools have been during our
lifetime.
I remember talking with a lotof people who are curious about
homeschooling, who come from thesame kind of background as I
(19:50):
did.
I went to a public school inDenmark and I, when Cecilia
suggested it, was like hey,homeschooling, that's weird.
The public school was goodenough for me.
Why should we do something else?
That's a strange thing.
Let's just go down the normalpath.
But the schools we were in whenwe were young are not the same
as they are today.
They have become narrower andthey have less time and they
(20:14):
have more and more control ofwhat the teacher is teaching,
when, as you said, it has almostbecome more machine-like.
Amir Nathoo (20:25):
And this is why I think people forget that the way
we categorize human knowledgeinto particular types of
subjects and the way and theordering we typically learn it,
this was all man-made, inventedby someone, and it's a map, and
hopefully the map bears somevague relationship to the
(20:47):
underlying reality.
But I think this is a mapthat's old it was created a long
time ago and we're so wedded tothe map today as a society that
we forget that this is notreality.
And it makes me wonder whatopportunities we're missing in
human knowledge and humanunderstanding that stand at the
border between subjects oroutside of the typical areas of
(21:11):
study and knowledge that wetypically think are important.
And again, I think AI is reallygoing to force a confrontation
with this.
There's some people who arepessimistic about AI, saying, oh
, we're going to automateourselves away.
Ai is going to be able to doeverything so much better than
humans.
And I'm actually an optimistabout AI and maybe you can tell
(21:33):
me this is more like faith, andI'm not sure I have the
scientific backing yet, but Ihave a sense that what we will
discover with AI is there arevery large parts of the human
experience and our brain that wehave been ignoring and that we
have idolized a narrow view ofintelligence, and now we've
(21:54):
automated it and are calling itartificial intelligence, and
we've forgotten that our brainis capable of so much more than
a certain type of intelligence.
And words like wisdom will cometo the forefront, our
understanding of the value offeelings and instincts and
intuition and what you alludedto earlier, the connection
(22:17):
between mind and body and heartor spirit, is going to become
all the more important, and whatwe may discover is oh, we
humans do have some additionalcapabilities and additional
value that we've been largelyignoring in this world, where
we've idolized intelligence anda particular view of rationality
.
Cecilie Conrad (22:38):
And these are qualities that we very much.
It's so beautiful.
We very much need them in thisday and age, and we will also
benefit on a personal level tohave so much better lives if we
take these things into theforefront our wisdom, our
(22:59):
alignment, mind, body, soul,spirit, heart whatever word
doesn't offend anyone Instinct,intuition, creativity could also
be an interesting thing tothrow in there.
If that takes census stage andbecomes what we really can work
with as humanity, that'sactually an explosion of options
(23:23):
and a catalyst of real change,which I think, with all of the
mental health crisis and all ofthe environmental crisis, the
political crises that's beengoing on since maybe forever, is
needed and it gives me a lot ofhope that, oh, it might
sometimes look really dark, butit doesn't take a lot of light
(23:46):
to spread all that dark.
It could be easy, could beright in front of us to solve
all these things.
Amir Nathoo (23:53):
I agree and I see a connection between what I'm
trying to do in educationwithout school and decisions
that I'm making for my own kidsand the crises that we see in
humanity right now and these oldsystems.
And I think humanity does haveto undergo a transformation,
which is going to be very hardand very difficult, and we
(24:16):
should be trying to create adifferent kind of future that
has to be holistic.
In order to actually addressthose crises that are on the
table and unfortunately, thereare people who are defeatist.
I think we have to leave thisplanet and go to Mars, or that
somehow technology alone willsave us, or somehow that
reversion to the past will saveus, and what I see in that is,
(24:42):
with acceleration, it putspeople into a mild state of
shock that they might not evenrealize and you grasp for some
sense of stability and that canlead to reactionary,
backward-looking thinking.
And what we actually need isnew ideologies, new structures,
and we have to get much morecomfortable with abandoning the
old and building towards the new.
And I wasn't able to articulateit or have a theory around it
(25:05):
when I started out school, but Ithink this is what attracted me
to the alternative educationand homeschooling community, the
realization that this is wherethe future is being built and
that it was necessary to kind ofreject historic structures
until they are ready totransform and instead build for
the new.
And so that's why I continue tobe so inspired about speaking
(25:27):
to homeschoolers, unschoolers,people who have had the courage
and conviction to do that today,because I really think you and
your audience are thetrailblazers.
I was really learning fromserving this audience that
resulted in what we have asOutschool today, and we hope to
continue serving this audienceto build for the future in
partnership with unschoolers andhomeschoolers.
Jesper Conrad (25:51):
And Amir.
I think it could be reallyinteresting to dive deep into
this, but we have a hard backend because you need to go into
a call and we were, as it islate, because we are at a world
school pop-up in Budapesttogether with 120 teens, 65
families Amazing experience, butalso just so overwhelming that
(26:16):
I had a time in my head andforgot when we were supposed to
meet.
So this will be one of ourshortest episodes ever, but I
think it was deeply interestingand want to thank you for your
time.
Amir Nathoo (26:26):
Thank you.
We can talk more about theliberation aspects of
homeschooling another time.
Jesper Conrad (26:33):
That could definitely be really fun to do.
Cecilie Conrad (26:35):
Thank you for this conversation.
It's been a pleasure to meetyou.
Amir Nathoo (26:39):
Thank you and likewise take care.
Bye-bye, Bye now.
Today we are together with Amir Natu, who has
founded Outschool, so, first ofall, welcome.
It's good to have time with youtoday.
Amir Nathoo (00:08):
Thanks so much.
It's great to be talking to you.
Jesper Conrad (00:11):
I am curious about how your project started,
but maybe you should give like aone-minute short.
What is Outschool?
So people know what we aretalking about.
Amir Nathoo (00:22):
Absolutely so.
Outschool provides onlineclasses for kids, and these are
classes that meet live overvideo chat, and they can be
one-on-one classes with astudent and a teacher, or group
classes, so kids can join fromanywhere in the country,
anywhere in the world, andconnect with teachers and other
(00:43):
students who share theirinterests, and we offer it as a
marketplace.
So teachers create a very, verybroad range of classes,
everything from core academicsto enrichments and everything in
between, and this is for agesthree to 18.
Jesper Conrad (00:59):
Yeah, but what was your interest?
How did the idea occur?
Are you yourself inside thehomeschool movement?
Because a lot of homeschoolersstarted out with finding your
service.
So what happened in your lifethat led you down to creating
this?
Amir Nathoo (01:17):
I founded the company in 2015.
And there was a lot ofinfluences, including my own
personal experience, but I had avery traditional education in
England growing up.
I went to an excellentstate-funded school and then I
studied engineering at Cambridge.
But I also had two parents whowere teachers and they really
(01:39):
helped me pursue interestsoutside of school.
And as I grew older and saw thechanges in the world and went
through my entrepreneurialcareer, I started to realize how
important that had been for meAll the learning that happened
outside of regular schooling.
For example, they helped mepursue my interest in computers
(01:59):
with computer science lessons,and this was before it became
clear that programming computerscience was going to be a really
big deal.
I just did it because I becameinterested to learn how to
program games after playinggames and I started to realize
that what I wanted for my ownkids and I now have a
six-year-old and athree-year-old was actually
different from the traditionaleducation that I received.
(02:22):
Because of all the changes thatI've seen in the world of work
and the trends that I sawhappening in the world, I just
no longer believed that justgoing to a traditional school
and getting good grades andgoing to college was what was
needed for the future for mykids to be happy and successful.
And I also started to think ifI'm thinking this way, I believe
many more families are going tostart to feel this way, and
(02:44):
over the last 10 years, you canreally see that happen.
Our world is changing so fastand it's accelerating, and in
order to future-proof our kids'education, we can't just expect
that sending them to aninstitution whose design has not
fundamentally changed inhundreds of years and with
centrally set curriculum isgoing to work.
(03:05):
That's not how to future-proofyour education.
I think even for families whohaven't yet taken a step to act
on these ideas, the feeling ofanxiety is rising.
They can sense it, we can allsense it that these traditional
models just are not going to beapplicable for the future.
And that got me thinking aboutwell, what does a future-proof
(03:26):
education look like?
How are we going to deliverthis?
And that was a key inspirationbehind OutSchool.
Cecilie Conrad (03:31):
Do you think we really can future-proof an
education?
Amir Nathoo (03:36):
Well, it's hard right, because if you believe in
fast change and acceleration,then how are you going to design
an education today that you canguarantee is going to meet the
needs of the future in 20 years'time?
And I think we need to havemuch more humility than we
typically do in education.
(03:57):
We have to realize that ourassumptions about the skills and
the knowledge that are going tobe needed in that time frame
are probably wrong, and I thinkthat's the core insight.
We can't expect to define acurriculum with specific skills
and knowledge and expect that toget it exactly right, or even
mostly right, for the needs ofthe future.
(04:17):
So that's where our missioncomes in and how we think about
it.
We think that if it's very hardto predict the future, the most
important thing we can do forour kids is make sure that they
love learning, that they havethe confidence, the motivation,
the ability to learn, so thenwhatever they need in the future
, they're able to learn forthemselves, and that's far more
(04:40):
important than learning anyparticular subject or gaining
any particular skill.
Now, that's not to say it's notimportant that kids get the
experience of getting mastery insomething, but the purpose is
the process of learning, tobuild confidence in that process
and their own ability toexercise that process.
And so that's in practice iswhy we build the product the way
(05:03):
we do because to provide thistremendous variety of learning
opportunities allows kids andfamilies to customize, to pursue
interests, to go down differentand differentiated paths and,
as a result, increase their loveof learning.
Jesper Conrad (05:17):
I have a question , but first a short anecdote.
When I grew up I talked with mydad about education because I
wanted a more creative path, apath down filmmaking and I made
an amateur feature film when Iwas 16 and an animation film
that were in a lot of festivals.
And then I started writinginside journalism and I talked
(05:41):
with him about it because itwould have been a normal
trajectory for me to go to highschool and university and down
that road.
But I talked with my dad.
I was like I'm not sure I wantto go to university and he said
the field he ended up working inwasn't invented when he was
(06:02):
educated, which made me look ateducation in a fun way, because
it's the same with what I do.
I work inside online marketingand when I grew up there was no
such field.
I started working online whenthere was a CD-ROM and there was
no loudspeaker, so if youwanted to make a multimedia
(06:23):
project online, people wouldn'tbe able to consume it.
And now here we are talkingover Zoom some 30 years later,
and it is just working.
Amir Nathoo (06:33):
At the start of my college experience, no one had
mobile phones, or very few.
By the end, four years later,pretty much everyone had a
mobile phone, but no one yet hadcomputers in their room.
And then, a few years later,all the students have computers
in their room and Facebook was athing.
And this experience that youpoint out is going to become
more and more common when peopleare getting jobs and having
(06:54):
careers that did not exist whenthey're growing up, and that's,
you know, that's a function ofacceleration.
Jesper Conrad (07:00):
And I have a question to you about.
You started this platformbefore you were a father and now
you have stepped into thatarena some years ago and have
this changed what you areoffering on the platform?
Have they changed your ownperspective on learning to see
them grow up right there infront of you?
Amir Nathoo (07:22):
It was so fun on my son's third birthday, which is
the youngest age that can takeclasses.
This was about six years intobuilding the company he took his
first out-school classes andfortunately he loved them.
But this was a very riskymoment for me because I'd spent
all this time building thiscompany and having all these
classes in the hope that itwould be my kids would actually
(07:43):
like it.
Luckily, now they both do, bothmy son and my daughter, my
six-year-old and three-year-old.
So it was wonderful to see thatplay out and I think that our
strategy and fundamental kind ofcore beliefs, which I've shared
a little bit of here, haven'treally changed.
But I think there's been somepunctuation points or some new
(08:05):
revelations for me personally asmy kids have engaged with the
platform and as I've started tohave to make decisions about my
kids' education.
One of those was that, asalternative, as my philosophies
are, to really make a decision,to take a different path for
your child, it's very hard tolet go of the worry that I use,
(08:27):
even when you believe everythingthat I do and you work in the
field.
And at the start of thisjourney, before having kids, my
wife was familiar with ideasbehind homeschooling and
alternative education, butwasn't as extreme as me.
But now she has almost becomemore actually seeing our kids.
But the decision to send our sonto a very alternative school
(08:49):
was a hard one.
We said are we crazy here?
We're not going to send him tothe excellent traditional school
.
Down the road we exploredbuilding a micro school with
some friends, so essentially ahomeschool co-op.
But then we luckily found avery alternative, self-directed
school in San Francisco.
But even believing everything, Ido just the emotional burden
and the feeling of risk.
(09:11):
But that's actually one thingthat was unexpected about how
our platform, outschool, canhelp with that, because I also
started to realize hang on, ifI'm really worried about his
math or his cool reading, I canjust have him take an online
class for that.
It doesn't mean I have to sendhim to a traditional school.
I can just mitigate my worries.
(09:31):
And fortunately he likes math,he likes numbers.
So I just got him a math classat our school and so with very
little intervention I could bothsatisfy my worries and give him
a learning opportunity that fithis interests and that is
delivering immense results.
So you don't need to gear akid's entire schooling around
(09:53):
the kind of fears of the parent.
You can flip it on its head andsay make most of your decisions
from the point of view of thekid's self-direction and their
ability to pursue projects, andthen, insofar as you, the parent
, have remaining concerns, findother ways to help them.
So that was one kind ofrelation for me.
Cecilie Conrad (10:11):
Well, it is wild , the fear and concern thing and
how it affects us as parents,and I think there is a huge
momentum going on from thecontext that we all live in and
the historical wheels just keepturning, with everybody's been
in school, schools it's such abig deal.
So if you start doing it in adifferent way, it really rocks
(10:32):
the boat and we we all have thatexperience of worry and we need
to get over that.
I think it's.
There are many ways.
I don't know, you know, but weare unschoolers and we have now
teenagers who would have beengraduated high school if they
had been in school.
So we're like the other end ofthat.
(10:52):
So we worked a lot with thisthing.
I think the core thing, thereally important element, the
future-proofing thing that youtalked about To never stop
loving to learn, to support ourchildren in their passions
around what really makes sensefor them and how.
(11:15):
Learning is not actually aboutthe future.
It's about really wanting andlearning needing.
Being so absorbed in the thingright, you can't stop talking
about it, you just want toexplore it.
I think for us it's been veryimportant that our children
don't need to explain why theyneed to learn something.
(11:36):
It's not because I want to bean engineer or because I want to
whatever.
It's not about career andfuture.
It's about passion.
I happen to be in a field thatwas invented at the same time as
our species and will go onbeing the same.
I'm a psychologist.
That doesn't change.
I mean, the context changes, ofcourse, but and I enjoyed my 10
(11:58):
years at university I'm verytraditionally educated.
I love being an academic and Ithink there's a case to be made
for this whole thing.
But it all came from thepassion of learning.
So if we can keep our childrenin that passionate space and
maybe we do our inner work withthe fear, I think that would be.
(12:20):
I do my part and they do theirpart.
And out-schooled has a goodLots of people in our community
use it because we are anunschooling family and I can
only help my children so far inlearning the things they want to
learn.
There are things I know nothingabout and, more importantly, I
cannot find a passion for it.
(12:42):
Lots of things my kids want tolearn.
I can find a passion for it andexplore it with them and be
like, yeah, totally, let's diveinto this, whereas some things I
can't give up, you know.
And then I have platforms likeOutschool and other resources.
You know.
If you want to learn this,please go over there, where you
can find someone.
Amir Nathoo (13:03):
Absolutely, and that's the kind of flexibility
and support that we want tooffer to enable kids to follow
different paths, to providefamilies with the option to add
supplements and add to theirkids' learning experience, but
do it in a flexible way thatdoesn't require you to enroll
for a whole semester or you cancommit subject by subject or
(13:25):
teacher by teacher, or smalleror larger commitments.
That flexibility is critical.
I think a key problem in ourworld right now and you see this
in education is that we builtall these structures in our
human society, these reallycomplex, static structures, in
order to enable humanity toscale in various different ways,
(13:45):
using the technology of theindustrial revolution, and we've
turned ourselves and oursociety into machines, because
that was what was needed.
That was the kind of winningstrategy for the technology at
the time.
But now we have AI and I reallythink we're coming to the point
where human society is comingto the end of that road.
(14:08):
We can automate all therepetitive stuff at a much lower
cost than ever before, and thattrend is just going to keep on
continuing.
So then, what does it mean to behuman?
What does it mean to add valuefor each other as humans in a
world of AI and I really thinkit's going to be a massive
(14:30):
accelerant of this realizationthat we have to tear down these
structures that have served uswonderfully as humanity to get
to a certain point, but they'regoing to get in our way.
We don't need humans who aremachines.
We have machines that can bemachines now, and humanity and
humans used to mimic.
The machines then automatethemselves away, and that was a
(14:52):
great strategy for humanity todevelop.
Now that automation can go offand automate itself it's great
it's great, we get to do what'sreally important.
Cecilie Conrad (15:03):
Now we get to step up and be clear on, because
ai can only take us so far.
We actually do have to thinkfor ourselves.
In the cacophony of all thestuff out there, ai can keep
spamming us with ideas and listsand reviews and stuff, but we
are the humans and we are theones to know, with our head,
(15:26):
heart and body combined, what'sup with this life and where do
we want to take it and what arethe real challenges we have on
this planet as humanity and howcan we?
We need a lot of brain power tosolve the problems that we're
facing.
Let's I'm not trying to besuper negative, but, but I mean
(15:46):
world peace would be kind ofnice and green grass for our
great-grandchildren would alsobe.
I prefer to look into a futurelike that and we need to work on
that.
I think it's great that ai cando some of the heavy lifting or
some of the boring stuff.
I mean even small things liketranscripts.
(16:08):
Oh yes, I almost start cryingwhen I think about how many
hours I put into transcripts atuniversity and now you're just
done.
Yeah.
Jesper Conrad (16:18):
One of the things I really love is learning from
people who are passionate aboutsomething.
I believe that every personactually can have something to
teach you, and it's wonderful tolisten to people if they're
knowledgeable and passionateabout it.
For example, in the homeschoolenvironment in Denmark, we often
(16:38):
hung out with someone who had akid at the same age and one of
the people there.
We didn't have a lot ofinterest in common.
This guy was a programmer and Iwas like, ok, I need to ask him
about something he's interestedin, because our normal
conversation didn't flow.
So I ended up asking him aboutwhat he was working on and it
showed that he had figured outthat there's a radio signal on
(17:00):
modern cars' tires so it cantell the car when it runs out of
air.
And then he had put upsomething and measured the cars
driving by him and then everyhalf year could see when someone
went from winter tires tosummer tires.
And I'm just like this was soweird but so fun and the details
of what I learned from thatconversation was wonderful.
(17:21):
But so what I'm trying to leadover to is when people are
passionate, listening to themabout what they want to share is
fantastic.
So my question to you is whatis the most outlandish weird
cause on your platform that youhave seen where you have been
like?
Is there really anyone whowants to teach this?
(17:43):
And there's people who want tolearn this.
What's going on?
Amir Nathoo (17:47):
oh wow, at most our language, that's hard right
because it's positively meant,it's not I can share some things
because we tell our teachersteach the way you've always
wanted to teach the things thatyou're passionate about, because
how do you create love oflearning and great learning
experiences when the teacherreally cares?
So I totally agree with allthat passion.
I always like to cite thescience of farts.
(18:08):
We saw a first class on thescience of farts.
We saw a first class on thescience of farts.
Cecilie Conrad (18:13):
You recently.
Yeah, take the same class.
We've got a new client as oftoday.
Yeah, we'll take it.
Amir Nathoo (18:19):
It's turned into a category Now there's multiple
ones.
And then my son took this classwhen he was on holiday break.
It was about urine and sayingthe composition and cultural
history of urine and he foundthis hilariously funny and it
was good science as well.
It was good science and theparents loved it too.
It was just like oh well, thekids want to take science of
farts and learn about the humanbody and then also the chemistry
(18:42):
and the health elements of it.
It's exactly that kind of thingthat's excellent.
It's also a little bit edgy.
That is going to hook a kid in.
I also love citing the kind ofcat anatomy taught by a vet.
So this isn't a traditionallyqualified teacher but just
someone who professionally knowsa lot about the subject.
And many kids are passionateabout pets.
You know.
Some are interested in pursuingkind of medicine or learning
(19:05):
more.
It's very attractive.
Financial stock trading likemock stock trading for kids.
I mean I don't think they'reallowed to do it on these
payments platforms, but I thinkif kids were to form a hedge
fund, they'd run rings aroundadults.
I mean, if you think about howgood they are at games compared
with adults, I think putting inkids in charge of a financial
system might yield results.
(19:26):
These are the kind of thingsthat stand out to me.
Jesper Conrad (19:29):
But also just the fact that there are people who
want to learn it and people whowant to offer it also shows
something about how limited theschools have been during our
lifetime.
I remember talking with a lotof people who are curious about
homeschooling, who come from thesame kind of background as I
(19:50):
did.
I went to a public school inDenmark and I, when Cecilia
suggested it, was like hey,homeschooling, that's weird.
The public school was goodenough for me.
Why should we do something else?
That's a strange thing.
Let's just go down the normalpath.
But the schools we were in whenwe were young are not the same
as they are today.
They have become narrower andthey have less time and they
(20:14):
have more and more control ofwhat the teacher is teaching,
when, as you said, it has almostbecome more machine-like.
Amir Nathoo (20:25):
And this is why I think people forget that the way
we categorize human knowledgeinto particular types of
subjects and the way and theordering we typically learn it,
this was all man-made, inventedby someone, and it's a map, and
hopefully the map bears somevague relationship to the
(20:47):
underlying reality.
But I think this is a mapthat's old it was created a long
time ago and we're so wedded tothe map today as a society that
we forget that this is notreality.
And it makes me wonder whatopportunities we're missing in
human knowledge and humanunderstanding that stand at the
border between subjects oroutside of the typical areas of
(21:11):
study and knowledge that wetypically think are important.
And again, I think AI is reallygoing to force a confrontation
with this.
There's some people who arepessimistic about AI, saying, oh
, we're going to automateourselves away.
Ai is going to be able to doeverything so much better than
humans.
And I'm actually an optimistabout AI and maybe you can tell
(21:33):
me this is more like faith, andI'm not sure I have the
scientific backing yet, but Ihave a sense that what we will
discover with AI is there arevery large parts of the human
experience and our brain that wehave been ignoring and that we
have idolized a narrow view ofintelligence, and now we've
(21:54):
automated it and are calling itartificial intelligence, and
we've forgotten that our brainis capable of so much more than
a certain type of intelligence.
And words like wisdom will cometo the forefront, our
understanding of the value offeelings and instincts and
intuition and what you alludedto earlier, the connection
(22:17):
between mind and body and heartor spirit, is going to become
all the more important, and whatwe may discover is oh, we
humans do have some additionalcapabilities and additional
value that we've been largelyignoring in this world, where
we've idolized intelligence anda particular view of rationality
.
Cecilie Conrad (22:38):
And these are qualities that we very much.
It's so beautiful.
We very much need them in thisday and age, and we will also
benefit on a personal level tohave so much better lives if we
take these things into theforefront our wisdom, our
(22:59):
alignment, mind, body, soul,spirit, heart whatever word
doesn't offend anyone Instinct,intuition, creativity could also
be an interesting thing tothrow in there.
If that takes census stage andbecomes what we really can work
with as humanity, that'sactually an explosion of options
(23:23):
and a catalyst of real change,which I think, with all of the
mental health crisis and all ofthe environmental crisis, the
political crises that's beengoing on since maybe forever, is
needed and it gives me a lot ofhope that, oh, it might
sometimes look really dark, butit doesn't take a lot of light
(23:46):
to spread all that dark.
It could be easy, could beright in front of us to solve
all these things.
Amir Nathoo (23:53):
I agree and I see a connection between what I'm
trying to do in educationwithout school and decisions
that I'm making for my own kidsand the crises that we see in
humanity right now and these oldsystems.
And I think humanity does haveto undergo a transformation,
which is going to be very hardand very difficult, and we
(24:16):
should be trying to create adifferent kind of future that
has to be holistic.
In order to actually addressthose crises that are on the
table and unfortunately, thereare people who are defeatist.
I think we have to leave thisplanet and go to Mars, or that
somehow technology alone willsave us, or somehow that
reversion to the past will saveus, and what I see in that is,
(24:42):
with acceleration, it putspeople into a mild state of
shock that they might not evenrealize and you grasp for some
sense of stability and that canlead to reactionary,
backward-looking thinking.
And what we actually need isnew ideologies, new structures,
and we have to get much morecomfortable with abandoning the
old and building towards the new.
And I wasn't able to articulateit or have a theory around it
(25:05):
when I started out school, but Ithink this is what attracted me
to the alternative educationand homeschooling community, the
realization that this is wherethe future is being built and
that it was necessary to kind ofreject historic structures
until they are ready totransform and instead build for
the new.
And so that's why I continue tobe so inspired about speaking
(25:27):
to homeschoolers, unschoolers,people who have had the courage
and conviction to do that today,because I really think you and
your audience are thetrailblazers.
I was really learning fromserving this audience that
resulted in what we have asOutschool today, and we hope to
continue serving this audienceto build for the future in
partnership with unschoolers andhomeschoolers.
Jesper Conrad (25:51):
And Amir.
I think it could be reallyinteresting to dive deep into
this, but we have a hard backend because you need to go into
a call and we were, as it islate, because we are at a world
school pop-up in Budapesttogether with 120 teens, 65
families Amazing experience, butalso just so overwhelming that
(26:16):
I had a time in my head andforgot when we were supposed to
meet.
So this will be one of ourshortest episodes ever, but I
think it was deeply interestingand want to thank you for your
time.
Amir Nathoo (26:26):
Thank you.
We can talk more about theliberation aspects of
homeschooling another time.
Jesper Conrad (26:33):
That could definitely be really fun to do.
Cecilie Conrad (26:35):
Thank you for this conversation.
It's been a pleasure to meetyou.
Amir Nathoo (26:39):
Thank you and likewise take care.
Bye-bye, Bye now.
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