May 14, 2025 • 49 mins
What happens when your child simply won't fit inside society's educational box?
When Anna Vestlev Sandfeld realized her son didn’t fit into the structure of kindergarten—and likely never would fit into traditional school—she and her husband chose unschooling. In this conversation with her cousin Cecilie and co-host Jesper, Anna reflects on the first year of stepping away from the system.
Anna shares how the loss of her first child shaped her parenting values, what it meant to leave a job she loved, and how her son’s strong will and focused interests made conventional paths feel impossible.
We explore what unschooling looks like when a child is, as Anna puts it, a “force of nature.” She shares how they’ve let go of routines around food, sleep, and learning, and how screen time—especially a Paw Patrol obsession—became a mirror for her own discomfort.
We also discuss emotional availability as a form of parenting work, and why being present can be more powerful than teaching.
🗓️ Recorded May 13th, 2025. 📍 Budapest, Hungary
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cecilie Conrad (00:00):
Hi, welcome to the Self-Directed Podcast.
We are with Anna.
Anna has a very Danish namethat I cannot say in English
Anna Vestløv Sandfield.
Anna's my cousin.
Hi, yeah, hi.
So I did the introduction forthe Self-Directed Podcast.
Jesper Conrad (00:18):
For the first time in 120-something episodes,
so I will jump into it.
Anna, yeah, it's almost aleading question why did you
become interested in unschoolingand how did that come into your
life?
And I know that the answermight be due to us.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (00:37):
Yeah, the introduction is sort of part of
the explanation, because we'recousins and I've been taking
care of your kids, cecilia,since I was picking up your
oldest from kindergarten andcoming in your house after each
time you gave birth to fill upthe dishwasher.
(00:58):
So I've been part of your lifeand that is, of course, the way
that I've been introduced tothis sort of lifestyle, I think
and, of course, following on theside as well.
When you took off and journeyeda lot more than you did in the
(01:19):
beginning, where you still hadyour house in Copenhagen, you
planted a seed and then a lot ofthings happened.
I became a mom seven years agoto our first child who didn't
make it into the world, and youchange as a person becoming a
parent.
But you change a lot becoming aparent to a child that you
(01:41):
can't take home with you, and Ithink that rattled our
foundation, me and my husband.
And when we had our boy theyear after, it was pretty quick
that it was obvious to us thathe is a very sensitive kid and
(02:02):
as he got older it was also veryapparent that he doesn't fit
into like normal settings.
And you're laughing because youknow him, your soul, and his
soul resonates with each otherin a very specific way, but he
is a very determined young guyand yeah, but, anna, it's still
(02:23):
a very radical choice for manyto take.
Jesper Conrad (02:26):
In Denmark the homeschooling movement has been
growing during the last 15 years, but before that it was not
common, and to take that choiceis still a huge choice to take.
Have you been in doubt back andforth?
Have you considered maybe weshould put him in school, see
what happens?
Maybe he needed to be molded tofit into the box.
(02:50):
Maybe he didn't need to.
What do you think?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (02:54):
I think we've had a lot of thoughts on
this, me and my husband.
Last year, when I was onmaternity leave with our
daughter our youngest daughter Ihad a feeling and I talked to
my husband about it I was likeit's so wrong inside of me to
put him into this kindergarten.
And it was a really goodkindergarten we had.
(03:16):
They were so good and they werenot understaffed.
They had like really nicebuilding and outside areas and
they had a bus going to thewoods every three weeks and so
on A really like ideal settingif you want your child to have a
nice upbringing in aninstitution.
But I could just feel likesomething was wrong inside of me
(03:39):
.
So it is a radical choice, butI think actually it was quite
interesting.
When I quit my job, which I hadfor 11 years and I loved my job,
I was actually really happy andI had colleagues that I was
very fond of.
And when I had the reception,like saying goodbye to everyone,
my boss said that I was someonewho always did something
(04:02):
without compromise, and that wasinteresting to hear.
But I think it makes sense whenI look back at some of the
things that I've done.
So, yeah, I think it just fallsnatural that if I want to do
something a little bit different, I'm not taking him out of
kindergarten for six months, I'mtaking him out for good and I'm
(04:24):
not just putting him in publicschool.
If I'm putting him in a school,it will be an alternative school
, but right now we feel like itmakes more sense to have him at
home.
And if he's at home, why shouldI do school at home?
It makes sense to us to do itthat way, and whether we chose
(04:46):
it or whether our son led us tothat choice is hard to say.
He's been a big part of it.
It's so obvious for us that hewill not fit into that box in
any way.
And you can't shape him,because that's not possible.
Him, because that's notpossible.
(05:09):
He's not like a diamond in therough, he's like a nature force
and you can't shape a force ofnature.
Cecilie Conrad (05:14):
That's beautiful , it's true.
It really is true.
Don't you think always, when wemake choices small choices and
big choices, small choices andbig choices that it's always
multifactorial might be the wordin English mostly because of
him, but it's also because theloss of your first child and
(05:34):
it's also because of maybe youknow me so well and you've seen
my children grow up withoutschool, so you're someone you're
very close to, not me, but mykids.
You were also very close withmy kids and I think it's for me
that would have been really niceto know when I didn't have to
know someone, like really knowthem deeply and see how growing
(05:57):
up without school is completelyfine.
What I'm saying is just it'sit's actually many things that
align to make this choice.
Anna Vestlev Sandfel (06:06):
Definitely , it is a lot of factors weaved
into each other.
And then, of course, in Denmarkthere was, a few years back, a
writer who wrote a book that gota lot of public attention Eru
Manifestel and I think that sortof sparked the initial okay,
we're doing this.
Actually, it set some emotionsto work in me and I talked to
(06:32):
you at that time and said thatI'm feeling a lot of things, I
need to talk to you, I think.
And then we talked, and then wedecided to try out taking him
home after a vacation just forthree weeks and see if it was
terrible, if it was actuallyreally nice.
Jesper Conrad (06:49):
One of the things I can have difficulties
remembering is how big a choiceit felt like.
When I sit where I am today, Ican look at the norm and what
people consider normal and thinkthey are weird.
Why are they doing this?
The box we are made to fit into.
Either the box was bigger whenI was a child or the box has
(07:12):
never been big enough for humans.
For me, it's a very weirdconstruct the whole school,
kindergarten, sending your kidsaway from yourself, putting them
in a place to care of otherswhile you go to another place to
make money to pay for the careof your child, and there's this
whole circle where today I'mweirded out by it.
But I was where you were.
(07:34):
I have been in a place where Ifound it weird that Cecilia
wanted to leave our oldestdaughter on this alternative
school.
I found it weird that Stormdidn't want to go to school.
So you, standing right there,have you started to feel your
perspective of what normal ischange?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (07:56):
I think it's very much a process.
I think I started maybe adifferent place than you because
I actually went to analternative school myself, a
free school like a very smallschool in Copenhagen 130
students all in all across eightyears, so very close knit, and
it had a Christian basis and soon.
(08:18):
So I never went to publicschool.
Actually, I don't have thatexperience.
And I had in my first yearsactually a very happy school
experience.
I also had a really cool momwho was like strong and
independent and a single mom,and I think she gave me more
than I realized.
(08:38):
You see it when you become aparent yourself.
I think I'm actually also reallyinspired by my husband.
His parents are both schoolteachers and taught the public
school in the small Jutlandvillage that he grew up in.
But he is an entrepreneur and Isee him as being really
(09:00):
unschooled spirit, so to speak,inside.
He tried for six months to havea job where he was paid and had
to work seven hours and he waslike, ah, I'm dying in this, and
then he had to pursue his ownthing and he has been doing that
ever since.
So I think that element hasbeen in our life since we met
(09:24):
each other because he's sodriven to do his own thing and
having no one else setting thelimits, and that's been so
inspiring for me and I thinkthat's also pushed me to say,
okay, I'm actually doing this.
We're taking the kids out andnowhere, our youngest will not
start daycare or anything.
(09:45):
So in that perspective it's notbeen hard and I haven't felt
that like a negative attentionto it yet, because I think
keeping them home during daycareyears in denmark people are
like, oh, okay, that makes senseif you can make the economy
(10:05):
work, but when you get to school, that's where it's starting to.
I can feel it already like thecracks appearing and people are
like okay, but how will you makesure the social things and the
grammar someone asked me aboutif they would the grammar, the
grammar five.
(10:27):
I think she was thinking aboutthe long perspective.
Yeah, still that like a concern, but right now we're just doing
whatever our day is.
It's so obvious for me that ourson is learning like every day.
Cecilie Conrad (10:43):
I think we are curious about how it feels, but
we might project a lot into itbecause it was different for us
when we spoke about it, when youwere about to decide it.
It was easy that we know eachother, but in this context of
talking about how does it feelwhen you know someone that close
(11:04):
, it's not that unnormal for youpersonally.
So that helps, of course, and Ithink also you're right, you're
just feeling the cracks.
As they get slightly older, thepressure of what everyone else
are doing can build.
On the other hand, I know youhave a quite powerful family and
also the movement is growing inDenmark.
(11:25):
People have heard about itbefore now, I think.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (11:28):
There's also, I think, a beginning
political worry about thismovement because that book has
gotten so much attention andshe's been very vocal in the
public space, that author soit's gotten a lot of attention
and she's been very vocal in thepublic space, that author, so
it's gotten a lot of attentionand not necessarily in the best
(11:52):
way.
I think some politicians arereally scared that now everyone
will just quit their jobs andnot contribute to the economy
and society or something likethat.
And I know that I will give myson the best everyday life by
doing this, I'm absolutely sureabout that.
I can get unsure in like littlemoments.
(12:16):
I can get really angry with himbecause he's so strong-willed
and it can be difficult.
It's a really difficult choice.
Cecilie Conrad (12:26):
Oh yes.
Yeah, and unschooling is harderthan homeschooling, yeah.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (12:30):
I think I have that element of.
I don't know if I would reallybe bothered to do schooling at
home, like planning and all ofthat.
I would be too lazy to do thatBecause he just learns stuff and
then you have something andit's really annoying.
He has like an obsession withPaw Patrol and he will watch it
(12:53):
like all day long if he can andI can get.
Oh, why is he only sittingthere with his face into the
screen?
And sometimes he just forgetsto eat and he forgets to drink
and it can be like so difficultto be in that situation.
But then suddenly he switchesover and he's okay, I'm just
(13:13):
making like a lego building ofthe whole paw patrol universe
and it just dawns on you thatokay.
So maybe it looks absurd thathe delves into this one specific
thing, but it's like you say alot trust the process.
(13:34):
It can be really hard.
Cecilie Conrad (13:36):
I want to make a little commercial break here
and say the podcast, the LadiesFixing the World I think it's
season two, episode six is aboutrepetition, where we actually
talk about this for two hoursstraight.
We could look to you like it'sa waste of time, nothing.
But who are you really to knowthat?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (13:56):
Yeah, I think it's a delicate balance
that you have to find your ownpersonal comfort in it, because
of course, it's not nice forsomeone if they forget to eat
when they're five years old.
He needs food and he needs todrink water and he needs to go
to the bathroom and so on.
But I follow a lot of differentInstagram profiles on also this
(14:20):
sort of parenting approachwhere you are a lot more not so
much like strict rules, butfollowing the child.
I think they call it likenordic parenting or.
But anyways, there is like onelady in denmark specialized in
willful I think it would betranslated to willful or
(14:43):
strong-willed children and shesays okay, so if they have an
obsession with iPads or screens,that's very normal.
So if you want them to dosomething else, you just have to
make that more interesting.
You have to do the other thing.
If you want to have themoutside in the sun or the garden
, then you have to see okay, ifthey are to do that, you must
(15:05):
make that interesting enoughthat they are like okay, so I
want to do that instead.
So instead of setting theboundary and saying you can't
watch this, you're saying I'mgoing outside, we're playing a
game, we're drawing in thebackyard.
I'm inviting you to join us ifyou want to.
Does it make sense?
It?
Cecilie Conrad (15:24):
makes a lot of sense.
Once there was a friend of minewho said more or less the same
thing.
So she took the iPads and allof the internet access basically
away from her children becauseshe said I can never compete
with it.
That exact battle is a battle Iwill never win, and that took
me down the journeys that thelisteners will know about and
(15:45):
you know about.
It took us down the journeywhere we just didn't do it.
For four consecutive yearsthere was no movies, no youtube,
no gaming, nothing.
We just didn't touch it.
And that was one way and maybeit was good for the age my kids
had at the time.
But now, in my wisdom of my oldyears, I'd say that exact thing
(16:12):
you're saying if you want themto do something else, you better
make that more interesting.
It's a good perspective, butthen I have a little unschooler
alarm going.
So I want them to do.
Yeah, what's up with that?
I don't know what I think aboutthis.
I remember I asked Sandra Doddthat question about two years
(16:34):
ago when we were at a beautifulbeach.
It literally had gold in thesand not gold, but it was
sparkling, amazing and every daythere were dolphins coming
playing in the waves and one ofmy kids just wanted to game and
I was like could we go for justa little walk and watch the
dolphins?
Can it really be true that Ihave to let go of this and say
(16:58):
whatever you want, the rest ofus are going for a barefoot walk
in the golden sand with thedolphins I don't know Disney
movie and one of them was likenah, I'd rather play Minecraft.
And I asked Sandra and she saidif that child would rather play
Minecraft, maybe that childshould just play Minecraft.
I had a really hard time withthat and I don't know what I
(17:21):
think, but I think she's right.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (17:23):
And I think that it's definitely one
of the bigger issues.
There's a lot of other issuesthat I think that we've let go
of that other parentsconsidering this type of path
would be more like alarmed by orstruggle with, like eating food
(17:46):
.
We just, I don't know.
We're very like okay, whateveryou eat, whatever you want.
I'm saying now we have lunchand now I put food on the table
and it would be really nice ifyou're joining us.
Whatever you want to eat is upto you.
If you don't want anything,that's fine.
I always had children not wakingup to you.
(18:06):
If you don't want anything,that's fine.
I always had children notwaking up very early.
My kids always sleep in.
Also, when our oldest went tokindergarten, they would wake up
at eight o'clock, which isreally stressful if you want to
get to work on time.
So I think some of thoseelements we just skipped through
really fast and every time welet go of some of those battles,
(18:31):
it's easier, and I don't knowhow much of a choice it is and
how much of a.
Okay, this is just.
I'm just.
This is easier.
He's really sensitive about hisfood.
He can eat like oatmeal everyday if he wants to, he will
probably get the nutritions thatthat he needs, and I think that
(18:56):
the things that are left thatI'm struggling with is the
screen thing, so that is alsowhere my focus is but the screen
thing is a real it's sodifficult interesting revelation
I had about it at one point.
Jesper Conrad (19:13):
It's based on one of our earlier episodes where
we talked with a woman who theyhave created what they call the
opt-out family.
They have their family motto bemore engaging than the
algorithm Around this subject.
About the gaming some of thethings that had happened for me
sometimes when I look at one ofmy kids sit in gaming is that I
(19:34):
can be like, oh, I would ratherthey were doing something I
would evaluate as being betterin my world If they, for, were
sitting reading a book, playingchess, being deeply interested
in something, doing art, while Ido not spend time with them.
It would be better for me ifthey did something.
(19:55):
I gave a higher value but Icould also just spend time with
them.
And that was hard for me to seethat.
Sometimes I'm like, oh, but Iactually want to sit and work
and I work from home, and rightnow I do not want to be together
with my children because I'msitting and working.
So it's a choice.
I prefer work over my children,but then I have an agenda for
(20:19):
what they should be doing.
But I could also make my choicedifferent, and it's a little
hard to see it like thatsometimes, because I remember
giving my kids iPads while Icook, because I was too stressed
out coming home from work andcouldn't sit down and be like,
oh, now I need to engage them,and then cooking would just take
longer time.
(20:40):
Yes, but it would also be familytime, wonderful time.
But sometimes you just don'thave the energy.
Sometimes you're just like, hey, here's the screen, let me make
the food.
There we go.
And what provoked me aboutlooking in this mirror is that I
saw my own faults and where Iwasn't in agreement with myself.
(21:00):
Then I've forgiven myself andbeen more inclined to say to
myself okay, if I'm actually notactively wanting to spend time
together with my child right now, maybe I should not try to put
down walls around what I thinkthey should be doing.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (21:18):
I have a lot of the same thoughts.
I think sometimes, when we alsoget annoyed with behavior in
others, it's a reflection of ourown faults.
I have a really bad habit ofbrowsing through my phone and
just jumping into social mediaand I can definitely see that
when I have those days whereI've been good at putting the
(21:40):
phone away and just beingpresent, the energy is so much
better.
And I think there is my husbandis really good at that.
He's so brilliant at just beingpresent and it annoys me
sometimes because he can be likehe can just get them like out
the door like this and they gohave an adventure and go on a
(22:03):
bike ride or something, and hedoesn't have those struggles
that I sometimes feel like havea long debate about whether or
not we're going outside.
But I think in the end itpoints back to my own behavior
and they mirror that and if theydon't feel like I'm present
(22:23):
enough, they will act on thatand that's definitely one of the
things that I'm aware of.
But it's so hard to break thathabit.
It's definitely.
I think that's the big processfor me is to have that presence
(22:44):
and putting my own media stuffaway and just dive into those
interests that they have.
And then there is, of course,the difficulty of having two
children who are reallydifferent.
One is definitely a homey manand then we have our girl, who
(23:07):
is running out the door andfinding the other kids in the
area that we live in and justlove being outside.
And it's definitely a balanceof how can you interact
authentically with both kidswhere they are.
If they're in two differentplaces, like physically in two
(23:28):
different places, I think it'smore like an energy thing.
If I am truly present andauthentically, like aware and
involved, the energy is better,no matter like how much video or
whatever, so it can be a screenday, but if I'm involved and
(23:49):
actively there, the energy is somuch better.
Cecilie Conrad (23:52):
I've recently noticed.
What was it?
Maybe?
In France in February, we weresitting around a big table, all
six of us, all four kids, werethere and the girls were doing
some embroidery.
I think it was around a bigtable, all six of us, all four
kids were there, and Jesper andI and the girls were doing some
embroidery, I think it was, andthe boys were playing a video
(24:14):
game and I don't know.
You were probably working onsome project and I don't know
what I was doing.
But then I took a picture ofthe girls and then I thought I
want a picture of my girls whoare embroidering.
Apparently I don't want apicture of my boys who are
playing a video game.
I know they're having fun,they're on an adventure, they're
(24:35):
doing what they want to do,they're passionate about it.
They're doing it together,we're all sitting around the
table together, so it's a nicecozy, cozy social situation.
I can hear them laugh.
But what is it about thatpicture that I don't want?
Obviously, I took the pictureand I did some inner work, but
it's just interesting how itkeeps going.
We have this judgment and Ithink it's on a global scale and
(24:58):
it really affects us, eventhough we can be very conscious
about how you know.
Conscious about how you know.
Maybe you need seaport patrol 2000 times before you're
completely ready to recreate itin lego or whatever you're done
processing when you need toprocess about it.
What do we know?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (25:18):
I think you're absolutely right.
If we remember back, it's likescreens have been a part of
society for a very short timehistorically, so I think we're
still learning.
What can it do for us and whatcan we use it for?
Cecilie Conrad (25:32):
There are many ways to look at these things and
I just think at least we shouldstop and think when we make
these judgments and I'm notsaying it's easy, but we could
let go of some of the idea ofone sort of exploration is
better than the other.
Jesper Conrad (25:48):
Then choosing this path?
I hear it is based on you canalmost say respecting your child
more, at least the way youdescribe it.
It sounds like it would havebeen disrespectful of him as a
person to put him in a placewhere he doesn't fit in.
Has this been opening to listento who your child is as a
(26:15):
person?
Is it different than what youhave thought parenting would be
like?
Did you have another idea ofhow you would parent until you
got this unique, wonderful childin your hands?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (26:28):
Yeah, I think I had.
I have a background in beinglike a scout leader of children
for many years and that is avery structured.
There is definitely an elementof chaos in it and freedom.
There is definitely an elementof chaos in it and freedom.
(26:57):
But you have to put eightchildren to sleep at the same
time for a week and you have tohave them ready for meals and so
on.
So there's like a structurethat you have to follow and
you're like, okay, that'sworking and I can put those
eight children to sleep likethis, eight children to sleep,
like this and then you get thisone child and he takes like
three hours to get to bed andjust what the hell is going on.
So your view of how things areis rattled.
I think when you have your ownchildren and I know that it's
(27:19):
not just me I have a really goodfriend who is actually a
daycare worker and a reallybrilliant one.
She's very authenticallypresent when she works and she
has children the same way.
She can't get them to do stuffthat she can get the children in
her daycare to do.
So I think that it's alwaysdifferent when you have your own
(27:42):
, because they challenge you ina very different way than they
do outside, partly because Ithink that when they're at home
they're more themselves.
They feel secure to do that Iwouldn't call it rebellion, but
they feel like they have thespace to actually have their
voice and their say.
(28:02):
So they will open their mouthand they will say what they
think, and we have children thathave very strong opinions.
Probably some families havechildren with less strong
opinions, but mine.
They have strong opinions andthey say them out loud and I
think it was quite obvious forus in the beginning of being
(28:26):
parents that we wanted to listenrespectfully to those opinions,
because it's not like you'rethe child and I'm the boss.
They're actual humans.
Sometimes we can have opinionsthat is based on experience and
I'm trying to like show theexperience and sometimes I just
(28:50):
don't give a crap about that.
But I think the viewpoint ofsaying, oh, it's actually like a
fully foreign person already inthe womb, almost, that you have
to create a really wholesomelife, or like framework around,
(29:16):
because I could feel I don'tknow about you, I could feel the
difference in personality whenthey were inside my body, this
is, it's so crazy when youhaven't had that experience, I
think, but I could definitelyfeel that they were different.
So when they come out and theyare so different, it's obvious
that it's not just oh, you canjust parent your way out of
(29:38):
whatever.
That is something you can hearsometimes.
It's just about how you raiseyour children, that they don't
want to dress in a certain wayor eat in a certain way or
whatever.
But I definitely believe thatthey come out and they have that
personality already and you canminimize the personality out
(30:01):
showing itself or you can let itflourish.
And I think that most peopleare inclined to just keeping it
detained because it's sodifficult.
I think in a life where youhave to be at work at a certain
time and they have to go tokindergarten, they have to
listen to or follow structurethere and fitting into that
(30:25):
model, it's easier if you detainthat strong voice, but if you
let it flourish, you also haveto deal with it, but it will
also show its beauty it's likespinning the wheel in two
(30:45):
different directions.
Cecilie Conrad (30:47):
If you walk into the mainstream life and you
take on the task of letting yourchildren grow up in the school
system, where of course therewill be a dress code and there's
a timing to it, you have to bethere at a specific time of day,
a specific number of days ayear and the right things have
to be in the backpack.
All these things are verystructured.
It kind of creates a momentumof I'm going to have to control
(31:11):
a lot of this and contain a lotof it and be in charge, and that
makes a very unleveledrelationship between the parent
and the child.
It becomes a lot of parentingas if it's a job, whereas if you
take all of that away, all thatstructure, and you allow for a
more free-flowing life, it's notnecessary with all that control
(31:33):
, and that gives space for amore leveled relationship
between parent and child.
I know on a global level that alot of people would say all
Danes have a very leveledrelationship.
That lady who wrote the DanishWay of Parenting.
She wants to make the Danishchildhood a UNESCO protected
phenomena because it isdifferent phenomena because it
(32:01):
is different.
So what I'm trying to do hereis to just say that it can
sometimes sound a littlejudgmental and a little bit.
We're better and we know betterand gold star for me and not
for you situation.
But obviously when you havethis lifestyle and you've chosen
to not use the school systemand not school at home, then
it's easier to unfold thatleveled parental relationship
(32:25):
and be in a more flowy andtherefore respectful and
balanced way of life.
And my heart goes out a littlebit to those who have chosen
otherwise.
Jesper Conrad (32:38):
They are a little bit trapped in it and I
understand why it has to be morecontrolled my heart goes out to
the people who have chosen thisway of life we have because, oh
my god, giving them space to bewho they are.
It would sometimes be wayeasier if they could just shut
up and do what we said and justget dressed out of the in the
(33:00):
school.
Leave me alone.
Give space no, of coursejokingly.
Then it takes a lot of focus, alot of space in the heart and a
lot of time where I cannot see.
It can be done very easily ifyou only have that limited
amount of time that is available.
If you have two parents goingto work and coming home late, I
(33:24):
know people can do it.
I just have difficulty seeingwhere you find time for all
those hours of talk, givingspace, listening and all that.
Cecilie Conrad (33:36):
So that's where the coffee comes back into the
conversation.
Jesper Conrad (33:39):
Yeah, definitely.
Cecilie Conrad (33:41):
Visit that one again.
Sitting down with a cup ofcoffee being available for the
children.
Looks like chilling, but it'sactually your job.
Anna Vestlev Sandfel (33:52):
Definitely , and I think we actually have a
really good balance at home,because my husband does like a
lot of chores at home, because Ithink there is definitely a
difference in whether it's me,the mom, or him, the father,
being at home, and we have atwo-year-old who still
(34:13):
breastfeeds and sometimes theyjust cling to me in a way that
they will never do to him, andit's really nice just having the
opportunity to to not runningaround trying to do all the
chores all the time, because Ithink that is what some parents
end up doing if they try it out.
(34:35):
I think more people try, try tohave the small ones at home
between one and three years old.
In Denmark that is the biggestgroup and then some people also
have them home in thekindergarten years and then a
few have them home in the schoolyears.
But if they have those yearswith small children and they at
(34:57):
the same time run around doingall the chores, it doesn't feel
like a meaningful day.
I think Then you're justfeeling like you did your job
and you still didn't have timeto interact with your child,
because they're just sittingthere playing with something and
(35:18):
you're running around doing allthis practical stuff and I
think that is definitely part ofwhy it I think it works is that
division of labor at home isstill something that we are very
aware of.
Cecilie Conrad (35:34):
It's definitely like a lot of work for me to be
just be with the kids yeah andthis is the point I like to make
that sometimes it can for thehusbands or for the onlooker
look like we're being lazy,you're just sitting around there
with your coffee chatting, youspend all day in the sofa, kind
(35:57):
of thing.
But actually, if we don't dothat, if we're not emotionally
available, if we're not fullypresent, if we don't have extra
time on our hands, then whatwhen that horse hall patrol
happens and lego has to come outand I also want to go on a day
trip, and how about we make acake?
(36:17):
And you have 19 things going onthat are on your to-do list and
you're actually not availablebecause you're in the middle of
a lot of other stuff.
It is actually part of the jobto be, to just be there, to be
emotionally and mentallyavailable, and I just think,
yeah, it's great that you, as acouple, can create space for
(36:40):
that.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (36:41):
I think knowing that is the goal and
actually doing it is twodifferent things.
So I think we know that it'sdefinitely better if I'm
available, as you mentioned.
I think that it's so much aprocess thing, this choice and
doing it like this, and we haveto find our own way in it and
(37:01):
even though we're really closeand we're family, we don't
necessarily end up doing itexactly like you, and I think
maybe if you're looking at itfrom outside, you could think
that, okay, she's just doing thesame thing, and I don't think
that we just like doing the samething and I don't think that we
will necessarily do the samething.
We will do whatever our familywill move towards.
(37:24):
But it's difficult when youdon't have the fact sheet, and
that is definitely alsosomething I think a lot of
people are scared of.
Jesper Conrad (37:33):
And I love what you said about fact sheets
because it makes me laugh andponder and think about where I
was when, earlier, I had thispad in front of us.
The kids should go to school,cecilia should out have a career
, all the things you're like.
This is how life is, and then,when you take them out, you're
(37:54):
starting to question yourself.
And then, when you take themout, you're starting to question
yourself.
You're starting to evaluate alot of stuff.
But what I find funny looking atit now is did I actually
believe there was a fact sheetof how life would be if I had
sent them to school?
It is like when we take theresponsibility home, take a
(38:18):
larger responsibility than if wehad sent them down the normal
path, and part of me isconsidering if we, when we
outsource the knowledge oroutsource the schooling, the
caregiving and these things,creating something we can blame
if it doesn't go well like wewant to.
Where now, when you take themhome, then you are the one who
needs to be like oops, I screwedup, I could have been a better
(38:39):
dad.
It's quite fun that we havethis distinction that oh, now I
don't have a fact sheet, but I'mlike we probably didn't know
what the outcome would be, butwe would have maybe been OK with
the outcome because weconsidered it normal.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (38:55):
I think I understand your point.
I think it's also a matter ofwhen it's something that
everyone does, it's a lot easierto do it.
I think there is and that'slike a whole different talk, I
think but the fact that we arenot as closely involved in each
(39:17):
other's families like everydaylife anymore than like way back
we would be, we would see whatlife was like in that family and
that family, but now we're alot more closed off units so
it's easier to follow thatnarrative that society gives us
(39:38):
and that narrative is daycare,kindergarten, school, high
school, maybe university, ifyou're like, really the academic
path and so on.
But stopping and looking at itand saying, but what do I
actually want to use my time on?
Is really difficult andeverything goes so fast and I
(40:02):
think that, as you say, so manypeople are caught up in the life
choices that they've made anddoing something radically
different is really hard.
Radically different is reallyhard Having to not spend a lot
of money on going on holidays orliving in a big house or
(40:24):
whatever.
In some ways it's lucky that wedidn't have a house that we had
bought and had like a big loanand we lived in a rental, so it
made it a lot easier to say,okay, we can cut down on our
income, but it's scary.
It's really scary, and you haveto both look at the long
(40:44):
perspective and think, okay, howlong could we possibly do this?
Do we have the money to do thisfor 10 years or one year or
what?
And if you can't see that themoney is there, it's a lot
harder, I think.
Cecilie Conrad (41:02):
I think you're right and I think a lot of
people are caught up in theconsequences of choices they
made before and some are to anextent where even I, with my
radical viewpoints, can see that, okay, this one's actually
quite hard to get out of.
But I personally, you lost yourchild and it was horrible and
that was a very big part of somesort of change in your life.
(41:26):
For me it was when I had cancerand when I survived that one I
really felt I'm just never goingto have a job again.
I don't want that and I wouldactually rather live in my car
than I would send my kids toschool.
(41:46):
And when I had that thought I'drather live in my car.
It was more or less just a car.
It was a radical thought in mymind.
I thought, okay, if I have tolet go of my house to do this,
if I have to choose betweenhaving my kids around me and
doing this the way I feel isright, or having the house,
(42:07):
because that's a real thing forme and for many of our listeners
.
It's a real thing when youchoose to unschool that you
might have to let go of yourhome.
It's a real thing when youchoose to unschool, that you
might have to let go of yourhome.
For me personally, I mean, Ididn't do it to begin with for a
long time, thanks to thiswonderful man, we could stay
there.
But I did feel it deep in myheart that I would actually
(42:30):
rather sleep in the back seat ofmy car and I think this I can't
do it.
You could do it, you're solucky you could do it.
I cannot do it because there'sthat and the other.
At the end of the day, it's aquestion of priority, of working
hard for it.
I remember when we did aninterview with a lady who
(42:53):
unschooled her one child.
But from the day she realizedunschooling was an option a
thing that lots of people,including myself, live a long
life without knowing, you canactually just not put your kids
in school From the day sherealized, oh, I can do that to
the day where she could actuallydo it, because she was a single
(43:14):
mom and you're not selling yourhouse in one day and maybe you
don't even have a car to moveinto.
But what she did was she satdown, she made a plan.
So if I am to home educate mychild, what would that take and
how can I get there?
Just every time this comes up,some people can't do it, some
people are caught up, somepeople don't have the option.
(43:35):
True and not true.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (43:38):
I definitely agree.
I think that in the end,everyone could choose to do it.
I think there are two elements.
There's the practical stuff,like economy and where do you
live, and so if you have anexpensive house and you have a
lot of debt and that you have tomaybe sell it and live
differently.
But there's also the inner youhave to want to do it and you
(44:00):
have to truly want to do it.
I think some people are drawntowards the freedom aspect of it
, but then maybe they try it inthe early years of school, and I
don't know, because I haven'tdone it yet.
But my idea is that I thinksome people try it out and they
(44:21):
still haven't committed 100% todoing it that way.
And you need to do that as well, Because if you're not trusting
that this is the right thing todo, your kids will not trust it
to be the right thing for themand they will end up asking to
(44:42):
go to school, maybe because theycan sense that you actually
think that maybe that would bebetter for them.
So I think it's like a twoparallel roads besides each
other.
Cecilie Conrad (44:57):
And there's also the whole de-schooling process.
If you only unschool for a yearand it's a five-year-old
whatever age actually thechances of arriving at a place
where you've actually let go ofthe idea of specifics that the
child will keep looking for,those curriculum-based kind of
(45:18):
academics, does it look likeacademics, and for a long time?
For all of the time it doesn't,and so a year is just not a
long time enough.
But I think maybe we shouldcome back to the question of
de-schooling in a year or two,anna, and then you can reflect
on where you were today, in ayear or two, anna, and then you
can reflect on where you weretoday.
Jesper Conrad (45:38):
Anna, for people out there who are where you were
some years ago, what would yourbest advice be to them?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (45:48):
I think I rely on something that we have
talked a lot about, cecilia, isthat you can always change your
mind.
It's not a choice and thenyou're like set in stone.
You can choose to do this andif you feel like it's not the
right thing to do tomorrow, youcan change.
(46:09):
You don't have to be fullycommitted to doing it forever,
and maybe they can make it lessscary because it becomes less
radical, and I think a lot ofpeople need it to be less
radical.
You can also start out by doingschool at home if you think
that is what you feel safe in.
(46:31):
So, if you can find a placewhere you feel comfortable and
then try it out, I can feel thatI've already changed a lot.
So, just like trust, trust theprocess and always return to
what Gandalf says right, it'swhat we do with the time that is
given to us.
Cecilie Conrad (46:48):
Yeah.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (46:48):
And I think that's something I uphold
very much when I get lonely orin doubt or whatever.
I get lonely in this lifestylebecause we don't have a lot of
homeschoolers here where I live,but the time with my children
are worth it.
Jesper Conrad (47:05):
I think Gandalf is a wonderful place to end the
episode.
Anna, thank you a lot for yourtime.
It has been interesting to hearabout your process.
I know we have been part of it,but still it's fun to hear your
reflections on it.
So thanks a lot for your timeand good luck on the journey.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (47:23):
Thank you , and you too.
Hi, welcome to the Self-Directed Podcast.
We are with Anna.
Anna has a very Danish namethat I cannot say in English
Anna Vestløv Sandfield.
Anna's my cousin.
Hi, yeah, hi.
So I did the introduction forthe Self-Directed Podcast.
Jesper Conrad (00:18):
For the first time in 120-something episodes,
so I will jump into it.
Anna, yeah, it's almost aleading question why did you
become interested in unschoolingand how did that come into your
life?
And I know that the answermight be due to us.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (00:37):
Yeah, the introduction is sort of part of
the explanation, because we'recousins and I've been taking
care of your kids, cecilia,since I was picking up your
oldest from kindergarten andcoming in your house after each
time you gave birth to fill upthe dishwasher.
(00:58):
So I've been part of your lifeand that is, of course, the way
that I've been introduced tothis sort of lifestyle, I think
and, of course, following on theside as well.
When you took off and journeyeda lot more than you did in the
(01:19):
beginning, where you still hadyour house in Copenhagen, you
planted a seed and then a lot ofthings happened.
I became a mom seven years agoto our first child who didn't
make it into the world, and youchange as a person becoming a
parent.
But you change a lot becoming aparent to a child that you
(01:41):
can't take home with you, and Ithink that rattled our
foundation, me and my husband.
And when we had our boy theyear after, it was pretty quick
that it was obvious to us thathe is a very sensitive kid and
(02:02):
as he got older it was also veryapparent that he doesn't fit
into like normal settings.
And you're laughing because youknow him, your soul, and his
soul resonates with each otherin a very specific way, but he
is a very determined young guyand yeah, but, anna, it's still
(02:23):
a very radical choice for manyto take.
Jesper Conrad (02:26):
In Denmark the homeschooling movement has been
growing during the last 15 years, but before that it was not
common, and to take that choiceis still a huge choice to take.
Have you been in doubt back andforth?
Have you considered maybe weshould put him in school, see
what happens?
Maybe he needed to be molded tofit into the box.
(02:50):
Maybe he didn't need to.
What do you think?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (02:54):
I think we've had a lot of thoughts on
this, me and my husband.
Last year, when I was onmaternity leave with our
daughter our youngest daughter Ihad a feeling and I talked to
my husband about it I was likeit's so wrong inside of me to
put him into this kindergarten.
And it was a really goodkindergarten we had.
(03:16):
They were so good and they werenot understaffed.
They had like really nicebuilding and outside areas and
they had a bus going to thewoods every three weeks and so
on A really like ideal settingif you want your child to have a
nice upbringing in aninstitution.
But I could just feel likesomething was wrong inside of me
(03:39):
.
So it is a radical choice, butI think actually it was quite
interesting.
When I quit my job, which I hadfor 11 years and I loved my job,
I was actually really happy andI had colleagues that I was
very fond of.
And when I had the reception,like saying goodbye to everyone,
my boss said that I was someonewho always did something
(04:02):
without compromise, and that wasinteresting to hear.
But I think it makes sense whenI look back at some of the
things that I've done.
So, yeah, I think it just fallsnatural that if I want to do
something a little bit different, I'm not taking him out of
kindergarten for six months, I'mtaking him out for good and I'm
(04:24):
not just putting him in publicschool.
If I'm putting him in a school,it will be an alternative school
, but right now we feel like itmakes more sense to have him at
home.
And if he's at home, why shouldI do school at home?
It makes sense to us to do itthat way, and whether we chose
(04:46):
it or whether our son led us tothat choice is hard to say.
He's been a big part of it.
It's so obvious for us that hewill not fit into that box in
any way.
And you can't shape him,because that's not possible.
Him, because that's notpossible.
(05:09):
He's not like a diamond in therough, he's like a nature force
and you can't shape a force ofnature.
Cecilie Conrad (05:14):
That's beautiful , it's true.
It really is true.
Don't you think always, when wemake choices small choices and
big choices, small choices andbig choices that it's always
multifactorial might be the wordin English mostly because of
him, but it's also because theloss of your first child and
(05:34):
it's also because of maybe youknow me so well and you've seen
my children grow up withoutschool, so you're someone you're
very close to, not me, but mykids.
You were also very close withmy kids and I think it's for me
that would have been really niceto know when I didn't have to
know someone, like really knowthem deeply and see how growing
(05:57):
up without school is completelyfine.
What I'm saying is just it'sit's actually many things that
align to make this choice.
Anna Vestlev Sandfel (06:06):
Definitely , it is a lot of factors weaved
into each other.
And then, of course, in Denmarkthere was, a few years back, a
writer who wrote a book that gota lot of public attention Eru
Manifestel and I think that sortof sparked the initial okay,
we're doing this.
Actually, it set some emotionsto work in me and I talked to
(06:32):
you at that time and said thatI'm feeling a lot of things, I
need to talk to you, I think.
And then we talked, and then wedecided to try out taking him
home after a vacation just forthree weeks and see if it was
terrible, if it was actuallyreally nice.
Jesper Conrad (06:49):
One of the things I can have difficulties
remembering is how big a choiceit felt like.
When I sit where I am today, Ican look at the norm and what
people consider normal and thinkthey are weird.
Why are they doing this?
The box we are made to fit into.
Either the box was bigger whenI was a child or the box has
(07:12):
never been big enough for humans.
For me, it's a very weirdconstruct the whole school,
kindergarten, sending your kidsaway from yourself, putting them
in a place to care of otherswhile you go to another place to
make money to pay for the careof your child, and there's this
whole circle where today I'mweirded out by it.
But I was where you were.
(07:34):
I have been in a place where Ifound it weird that Cecilia
wanted to leave our oldestdaughter on this alternative
school.
I found it weird that Stormdidn't want to go to school.
So you, standing right there,have you started to feel your
perspective of what normal ischange?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (07:56):
I think it's very much a process.
I think I started maybe adifferent place than you because
I actually went to analternative school myself, a
free school like a very smallschool in Copenhagen 130
students all in all across eightyears, so very close knit, and
it had a Christian basis and soon.
(08:18):
So I never went to publicschool.
Actually, I don't have thatexperience.
And I had in my first yearsactually a very happy school
experience.
I also had a really cool momwho was like strong and
independent and a single mom,and I think she gave me more
than I realized.
(08:38):
You see it when you become aparent yourself.
I think I'm actually also reallyinspired by my husband.
His parents are both schoolteachers and taught the public
school in the small Jutlandvillage that he grew up in.
But he is an entrepreneur and Isee him as being really
(09:00):
unschooled spirit, so to speak,inside.
He tried for six months to havea job where he was paid and had
to work seven hours and he waslike, ah, I'm dying in this, and
then he had to pursue his ownthing and he has been doing that
ever since.
So I think that element hasbeen in our life since we met
(09:24):
each other because he's sodriven to do his own thing and
having no one else setting thelimits, and that's been so
inspiring for me and I thinkthat's also pushed me to say,
okay, I'm actually doing this.
We're taking the kids out andnowhere, our youngest will not
start daycare or anything.
(09:45):
So in that perspective it's notbeen hard and I haven't felt
that like a negative attentionto it yet, because I think
keeping them home during daycareyears in denmark people are
like, oh, okay, that makes senseif you can make the economy
(10:05):
work, but when you get to school, that's where it's starting to.
I can feel it already like thecracks appearing and people are
like okay, but how will you makesure the social things and the
grammar someone asked me aboutif they would the grammar, the
grammar five.
(10:27):
I think she was thinking aboutthe long perspective.
Yeah, still that like a concern, but right now we're just doing
whatever our day is.
It's so obvious for me that ourson is learning like every day.
Cecilie Conrad (10:43):
I think we are curious about how it feels, but
we might project a lot into itbecause it was different for us
when we spoke about it, when youwere about to decide it.
It was easy that we know eachother, but in this context of
talking about how does it feelwhen you know someone that close
(11:04):
, it's not that unnormal for youpersonally.
So that helps, of course, and Ithink also you're right, you're
just feeling the cracks.
As they get slightly older, thepressure of what everyone else
are doing can build.
On the other hand, I know youhave a quite powerful family and
also the movement is growing inDenmark.
(11:25):
People have heard about itbefore now, I think.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (11:28):
There's also, I think, a beginning
political worry about thismovement because that book has
gotten so much attention andshe's been very vocal in the
public space, that author soit's gotten a lot of attention
and she's been very vocal in thepublic space, that author, so
it's gotten a lot of attentionand not necessarily in the best
(11:52):
way.
I think some politicians arereally scared that now everyone
will just quit their jobs andnot contribute to the economy
and society or something likethat.
And I know that I will give myson the best everyday life by
doing this, I'm absolutely sureabout that.
I can get unsure in like littlemoments.
(12:16):
I can get really angry with himbecause he's so strong-willed
and it can be difficult.
It's a really difficult choice.
Cecilie Conrad (12:26):
Oh yes.
Yeah, and unschooling is harderthan homeschooling, yeah.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (12:30):
I think I have that element of.
I don't know if I would reallybe bothered to do schooling at
home, like planning and all ofthat.
I would be too lazy to do thatBecause he just learns stuff and
then you have something andit's really annoying.
He has like an obsession withPaw Patrol and he will watch it
(12:53):
like all day long if he can andI can get.
Oh, why is he only sittingthere with his face into the
screen?
And sometimes he just forgetsto eat and he forgets to drink
and it can be like so difficultto be in that situation.
But then suddenly he switchesover and he's okay, I'm just
(13:13):
making like a lego building ofthe whole paw patrol universe
and it just dawns on you thatokay.
So maybe it looks absurd thathe delves into this one specific
thing, but it's like you say alot trust the process.
(13:34):
It can be really hard.
Cecilie Conrad (13:36):
I want to make a little commercial break here
and say the podcast, the LadiesFixing the World I think it's
season two, episode six is aboutrepetition, where we actually
talk about this for two hoursstraight.
We could look to you like it'sa waste of time, nothing.
But who are you really to knowthat?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (13:56):
Yeah, I think it's a delicate balance
that you have to find your ownpersonal comfort in it, because
of course, it's not nice forsomeone if they forget to eat
when they're five years old.
He needs food and he needs todrink water and he needs to go
to the bathroom and so on.
But I follow a lot of differentInstagram profiles on also this
(14:20):
sort of parenting approachwhere you are a lot more not so
much like strict rules, butfollowing the child.
I think they call it likenordic parenting or.
But anyways, there is like onelady in denmark specialized in
willful I think it would betranslated to willful or
(14:43):
strong-willed children and shesays okay, so if they have an
obsession with iPads or screens,that's very normal.
So if you want them to dosomething else, you just have to
make that more interesting.
You have to do the other thing.
If you want to have themoutside in the sun or the garden
, then you have to see okay, ifthey are to do that, you must
(15:05):
make that interesting enoughthat they are like okay, so I
want to do that instead.
So instead of setting theboundary and saying you can't
watch this, you're saying I'mgoing outside, we're playing a
game, we're drawing in thebackyard.
I'm inviting you to join us ifyou want to.
Does it make sense?
It?
Cecilie Conrad (15:24):
makes a lot of sense.
Once there was a friend of minewho said more or less the same
thing.
So she took the iPads and allof the internet access basically
away from her children becauseshe said I can never compete
with it.
That exact battle is a battle Iwill never win, and that took
me down the journeys that thelisteners will know about and
(15:45):
you know about.
It took us down the journeywhere we just didn't do it.
For four consecutive yearsthere was no movies, no youtube,
no gaming, nothing.
We just didn't touch it.
And that was one way and maybeit was good for the age my kids
had at the time.
But now, in my wisdom of my oldyears, I'd say that exact thing
(16:12):
you're saying if you want themto do something else, you better
make that more interesting.
It's a good perspective, butthen I have a little unschooler
alarm going.
So I want them to do.
Yeah, what's up with that?
I don't know what I think aboutthis.
I remember I asked Sandra Doddthat question about two years
(16:34):
ago when we were at a beautifulbeach.
It literally had gold in thesand not gold, but it was
sparkling, amazing and every daythere were dolphins coming
playing in the waves and one ofmy kids just wanted to game and
I was like could we go for justa little walk and watch the
dolphins?
Can it really be true that Ihave to let go of this and say
(16:58):
whatever you want, the rest ofus are going for a barefoot walk
in the golden sand with thedolphins I don't know Disney
movie and one of them was likenah, I'd rather play Minecraft.
And I asked Sandra and she saidif that child would rather play
Minecraft, maybe that childshould just play Minecraft.
I had a really hard time withthat and I don't know what I
(17:21):
think, but I think she's right.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (17:23):
And I think that it's definitely one
of the bigger issues.
There's a lot of other issuesthat I think that we've let go
of that other parentsconsidering this type of path
would be more like alarmed by orstruggle with, like eating food
(17:46):
.
We just, I don't know.
We're very like okay, whateveryou eat, whatever you want.
I'm saying now we have lunchand now I put food on the table
and it would be really nice ifyou're joining us.
Whatever you want to eat is upto you.
If you don't want anything,that's fine.
I always had children not wakingup to you.
(18:06):
If you don't want anything,that's fine.
I always had children notwaking up very early.
My kids always sleep in.
Also, when our oldest went tokindergarten, they would wake up
at eight o'clock, which isreally stressful if you want to
get to work on time.
So I think some of thoseelements we just skipped through
really fast and every time welet go of some of those battles,
(18:31):
it's easier, and I don't knowhow much of a choice it is and
how much of a.
Okay, this is just.
I'm just.
This is easier.
He's really sensitive about hisfood.
He can eat like oatmeal everyday if he wants to, he will
probably get the nutritions thatthat he needs, and I think that
(18:56):
the things that are left thatI'm struggling with is the
screen thing, so that is alsowhere my focus is but the screen
thing is a real it's sodifficult interesting revelation
I had about it at one point.
Jesper Conrad (19:13):
It's based on one of our earlier episodes where
we talked with a woman who theyhave created what they call the
opt-out family.
They have their family motto bemore engaging than the
algorithm Around this subject.
About the gaming some of thethings that had happened for me
sometimes when I look at one ofmy kids sit in gaming is that I
(19:34):
can be like, oh, I would ratherthey were doing something I
would evaluate as being betterin my world If they, for, were
sitting reading a book, playingchess, being deeply interested
in something, doing art, while Ido not spend time with them.
It would be better for me ifthey did something.
(19:55):
I gave a higher value but Icould also just spend time with
them.
And that was hard for me to seethat.
Sometimes I'm like, oh, but Iactually want to sit and work
and I work from home, and rightnow I do not want to be together
with my children because I'msitting and working.
So it's a choice.
I prefer work over my children,but then I have an agenda for
(20:19):
what they should be doing.
But I could also make my choicedifferent, and it's a little
hard to see it like thatsometimes, because I remember
giving my kids iPads while Icook, because I was too stressed
out coming home from work andcouldn't sit down and be like,
oh, now I need to engage them,and then cooking would just take
longer time.
(20:40):
Yes, but it would also be familytime, wonderful time.
But sometimes you just don'thave the energy.
Sometimes you're just like, hey, here's the screen, let me make
the food.
There we go.
And what provoked me aboutlooking in this mirror is that I
saw my own faults and where Iwasn't in agreement with myself.
(21:00):
Then I've forgiven myself andbeen more inclined to say to
myself okay, if I'm actually notactively wanting to spend time
together with my child right now, maybe I should not try to put
down walls around what I thinkthey should be doing.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (21:18):
I have a lot of the same thoughts.
I think sometimes, when we alsoget annoyed with behavior in
others, it's a reflection of ourown faults.
I have a really bad habit ofbrowsing through my phone and
just jumping into social mediaand I can definitely see that
when I have those days whereI've been good at putting the
(21:40):
phone away and just beingpresent, the energy is so much
better.
And I think there is my husbandis really good at that.
He's so brilliant at just beingpresent and it annoys me
sometimes because he can be likehe can just get them like out
the door like this and they gohave an adventure and go on a
(22:03):
bike ride or something, and hedoesn't have those struggles
that I sometimes feel like havea long debate about whether or
not we're going outside.
But I think in the end itpoints back to my own behavior
and they mirror that and if theydon't feel like I'm present
(22:23):
enough, they will act on thatand that's definitely one of the
things that I'm aware of.
But it's so hard to break thathabit.
It's definitely.
I think that's the big processfor me is to have that presence
(22:44):
and putting my own media stuffaway and just dive into those
interests that they have.
And then there is, of course,the difficulty of having two
children who are reallydifferent.
One is definitely a homey manand then we have our girl, who
(23:07):
is running out the door andfinding the other kids in the
area that we live in and justlove being outside.
And it's definitely a balanceof how can you interact
authentically with both kidswhere they are.
If they're in two differentplaces, like physically in two
(23:28):
different places, I think it'smore like an energy thing.
If I am truly present andauthentically, like aware and
involved, the energy is better,no matter like how much video or
whatever, so it can be a screenday, but if I'm involved and
(23:49):
actively there, the energy is somuch better.
Cecilie Conrad (23:52):
I've recently noticed.
What was it?
Maybe?
In France in February, we weresitting around a big table, all
six of us, all four kids, werethere and the girls were doing
some embroidery.
I think it was around a bigtable, all six of us, all four
kids were there, and Jesper andI and the girls were doing some
embroidery, I think it was, andthe boys were playing a video
(24:14):
game and I don't know.
You were probably working onsome project and I don't know
what I was doing.
But then I took a picture ofthe girls and then I thought I
want a picture of my girls whoare embroidering.
Apparently I don't want apicture of my boys who are
playing a video game.
I know they're having fun,they're on an adventure, they're
(24:35):
doing what they want to do,they're passionate about it.
They're doing it together,we're all sitting around the
table together, so it's a nicecozy, cozy social situation.
I can hear them laugh.
But what is it about thatpicture that I don't want?
Obviously, I took the pictureand I did some inner work, but
it's just interesting how itkeeps going.
We have this judgment and Ithink it's on a global scale and
(24:58):
it really affects us, eventhough we can be very conscious
about how you know.
Conscious about how you know.
Maybe you need seaport patrol 2000 times before you're
completely ready to recreate itin lego or whatever you're done
processing when you need toprocess about it.
What do we know?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (25:18):
I think you're absolutely right.
If we remember back, it's likescreens have been a part of
society for a very short timehistorically, so I think we're
still learning.
What can it do for us and whatcan we use it for?
Cecilie Conrad (25:32):
There are many ways to look at these things and
I just think at least we shouldstop and think when we make
these judgments and I'm notsaying it's easy, but we could
let go of some of the idea ofone sort of exploration is
better than the other.
Jesper Conrad (25:48):
Then choosing this path?
I hear it is based on you canalmost say respecting your child
more, at least the way youdescribe it.
It sounds like it would havebeen disrespectful of him as a
person to put him in a placewhere he doesn't fit in.
Has this been opening to listento who your child is as a
(26:15):
person?
Is it different than what youhave thought parenting would be
like?
Did you have another idea ofhow you would parent until you
got this unique, wonderful childin your hands?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (26:28):
Yeah, I think I had.
I have a background in beinglike a scout leader of children
for many years and that is avery structured.
There is definitely an elementof chaos in it and freedom.
There is definitely an elementof chaos in it and freedom.
(26:57):
But you have to put eightchildren to sleep at the same
time for a week and you have tohave them ready for meals and so
on.
So there's like a structurethat you have to follow and
you're like, okay, that'sworking and I can put those
eight children to sleep likethis, eight children to sleep,
like this and then you get thisone child and he takes like
three hours to get to bed andjust what the hell is going on.
So your view of how things areis rattled.
I think when you have your ownchildren and I know that it's
(27:19):
not just me I have a really goodfriend who is actually a
daycare worker and a reallybrilliant one.
She's very authenticallypresent when she works and she
has children the same way.
She can't get them to do stuffthat she can get the children in
her daycare to do.
So I think that it's alwaysdifferent when you have your own
(27:42):
, because they challenge you ina very different way than they
do outside, partly because Ithink that when they're at home
they're more themselves.
They feel secure to do that Iwouldn't call it rebellion, but
they feel like they have thespace to actually have their
voice and their say.
(28:02):
So they will open their mouthand they will say what they
think, and we have children thathave very strong opinions.
Probably some families havechildren with less strong
opinions, but mine.
They have strong opinions andthey say them out loud and I
think it was quite obvious forus in the beginning of being
(28:26):
parents that we wanted to listenrespectfully to those opinions,
because it's not like you'rethe child and I'm the boss.
They're actual humans.
Sometimes we can have opinionsthat is based on experience and
I'm trying to like show theexperience and sometimes I just
(28:50):
don't give a crap about that.
But I think the viewpoint ofsaying, oh, it's actually like a
fully foreign person already inthe womb, almost, that you have
to create a really wholesomelife, or like framework around,
(29:16):
because I could feel I don'tknow about you, I could feel the
difference in personality whenthey were inside my body, this
is, it's so crazy when youhaven't had that experience, I
think, but I could definitelyfeel that they were different.
So when they come out and theyare so different, it's obvious
that it's not just oh, you canjust parent your way out of
(29:38):
whatever.
That is something you can hearsometimes.
It's just about how you raiseyour children, that they don't
want to dress in a certain wayor eat in a certain way or
whatever.
But I definitely believe thatthey come out and they have that
personality already and you canminimize the personality out
(30:01):
showing itself or you can let itflourish.
And I think that most peopleare inclined to just keeping it
detained because it's sodifficult.
I think in a life where youhave to be at work at a certain
time and they have to go tokindergarten, they have to
listen to or follow structurethere and fitting into that
(30:25):
model, it's easier if you detainthat strong voice, but if you
let it flourish, you also haveto deal with it, but it will
also show its beauty it's likespinning the wheel in two
(30:45):
different directions.
Cecilie Conrad (30:47):
If you walk into the mainstream life and you
take on the task of letting yourchildren grow up in the school
system, where of course therewill be a dress code and there's
a timing to it, you have to bethere at a specific time of day,
a specific number of days ayear and the right things have
to be in the backpack.
All these things are verystructured.
It kind of creates a momentumof I'm going to have to control
(31:11):
a lot of this and contain a lotof it and be in charge, and that
makes a very unleveledrelationship between the parent
and the child.
It becomes a lot of parentingas if it's a job, whereas if you
take all of that away, all thatstructure, and you allow for a
more free-flowing life, it's notnecessary with all that control
(31:33):
, and that gives space for amore leveled relationship
between parent and child.
I know on a global level that alot of people would say all
Danes have a very leveledrelationship.
That lady who wrote the DanishWay of Parenting.
She wants to make the Danishchildhood a UNESCO protected
phenomena because it isdifferent phenomena because it
(32:01):
is different.
So what I'm trying to do hereis to just say that it can
sometimes sound a littlejudgmental and a little bit.
We're better and we know betterand gold star for me and not
for you situation.
But obviously when you havethis lifestyle and you've chosen
to not use the school systemand not school at home, then
it's easier to unfold thatleveled parental relationship
(32:25):
and be in a more flowy andtherefore respectful and
balanced way of life.
And my heart goes out a littlebit to those who have chosen
otherwise.
Jesper Conrad (32:38):
They are a little bit trapped in it and I
understand why it has to be morecontrolled my heart goes out to
the people who have chosen thisway of life we have because, oh
my god, giving them space to bewho they are.
It would sometimes be wayeasier if they could just shut
up and do what we said and justget dressed out of the in the
(33:00):
school.
Leave me alone.
Give space no, of coursejokingly.
Then it takes a lot of focus, alot of space in the heart and a
lot of time where I cannot see.
It can be done very easily ifyou only have that limited
amount of time that is available.
If you have two parents goingto work and coming home late, I
(33:24):
know people can do it.
I just have difficulty seeingwhere you find time for all
those hours of talk, givingspace, listening and all that.
Cecilie Conrad (33:36):
So that's where the coffee comes back into the
conversation.
Jesper Conrad (33:39):
Yeah, definitely.
Cecilie Conrad (33:41):
Visit that one again.
Sitting down with a cup ofcoffee being available for the
children.
Looks like chilling, but it'sactually your job.
Anna Vestlev Sandfel (33:52):
Definitely , and I think we actually have a
really good balance at home,because my husband does like a
lot of chores at home, because Ithink there is definitely a
difference in whether it's me,the mom, or him, the father,
being at home, and we have atwo-year-old who still
(34:13):
breastfeeds and sometimes theyjust cling to me in a way that
they will never do to him, andit's really nice just having the
opportunity to to not runningaround trying to do all the
chores all the time, because Ithink that is what some parents
end up doing if they try it out.
(34:35):
I think more people try, try tohave the small ones at home
between one and three years old.
In Denmark that is the biggestgroup and then some people also
have them home in thekindergarten years and then a
few have them home in the schoolyears.
But if they have those yearswith small children and they at
(34:57):
the same time run around doingall the chores, it doesn't feel
like a meaningful day.
I think Then you're justfeeling like you did your job
and you still didn't have timeto interact with your child,
because they're just sittingthere playing with something and
(35:18):
you're running around doing allthis practical stuff and I
think that is definitely part ofwhy it I think it works is that
division of labor at home isstill something that we are very
aware of.
Cecilie Conrad (35:34):
It's definitely like a lot of work for me to be
just be with the kids yeah andthis is the point I like to make
that sometimes it can for thehusbands or for the onlooker
look like we're being lazy,you're just sitting around there
with your coffee chatting, youspend all day in the sofa, kind
(35:57):
of thing.
But actually, if we don't dothat, if we're not emotionally
available, if we're not fullypresent, if we don't have extra
time on our hands, then whatwhen that horse hall patrol
happens and lego has to come outand I also want to go on a day
trip, and how about we make acake?
(36:17):
And you have 19 things going onthat are on your to-do list and
you're actually not availablebecause you're in the middle of
a lot of other stuff.
It is actually part of the jobto be, to just be there, to be
emotionally and mentallyavailable, and I just think,
yeah, it's great that you, as acouple, can create space for
(36:40):
that.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (36:41):
I think knowing that is the goal and
actually doing it is twodifferent things.
So I think we know that it'sdefinitely better if I'm
available, as you mentioned.
I think that it's so much aprocess thing, this choice and
doing it like this, and we haveto find our own way in it and
(37:01):
even though we're really closeand we're family, we don't
necessarily end up doing itexactly like you, and I think
maybe if you're looking at itfrom outside, you could think
that, okay, she's just doing thesame thing, and I don't think
that we just like doing the samething and I don't think that we
will necessarily do the samething.
We will do whatever our familywill move towards.
(37:24):
But it's difficult when youdon't have the fact sheet, and
that is definitely alsosomething I think a lot of
people are scared of.
Jesper Conrad (37:33):
And I love what you said about fact sheets
because it makes me laugh andponder and think about where I
was when, earlier, I had thispad in front of us.
The kids should go to school,cecilia should out have a career
, all the things you're like.
This is how life is, and then,when you take them out, you're
(37:54):
starting to question yourself.
And then, when you take themout, you're starting to question
yourself.
You're starting to evaluate alot of stuff.
But what I find funny looking atit now is did I actually
believe there was a fact sheetof how life would be if I had
sent them to school?
It is like when we take theresponsibility home, take a
(38:18):
larger responsibility than if wehad sent them down the normal
path, and part of me isconsidering if we, when we
outsource the knowledge oroutsource the schooling, the
caregiving and these things,creating something we can blame
if it doesn't go well like wewant to.
Where now, when you take themhome, then you are the one who
needs to be like oops, I screwedup, I could have been a better
(38:39):
dad.
It's quite fun that we havethis distinction that oh, now I
don't have a fact sheet, but I'mlike we probably didn't know
what the outcome would be, butwe would have maybe been OK with
the outcome because weconsidered it normal.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (38:55):
I think I understand your point.
I think it's also a matter ofwhen it's something that
everyone does, it's a lot easierto do it.
I think there is and that'slike a whole different talk, I
think but the fact that we arenot as closely involved in each
(39:17):
other's families like everydaylife anymore than like way back
we would be, we would see whatlife was like in that family and
that family, but now we're alot more closed off units so
it's easier to follow thatnarrative that society gives us
(39:38):
and that narrative is daycare,kindergarten, school, high
school, maybe university, ifyou're like, really the academic
path and so on.
But stopping and looking at itand saying, but what do I
actually want to use my time on?
Is really difficult andeverything goes so fast and I
(40:02):
think that, as you say, so manypeople are caught up in the life
choices that they've made anddoing something radically
different is really hard.
Radically different is reallyhard Having to not spend a lot
of money on going on holidays orliving in a big house or
(40:24):
whatever.
In some ways it's lucky that wedidn't have a house that we had
bought and had like a big loanand we lived in a rental, so it
made it a lot easier to say,okay, we can cut down on our
income, but it's scary.
It's really scary, and you haveto both look at the long
(40:44):
perspective and think, okay, howlong could we possibly do this?
Do we have the money to do thisfor 10 years or one year or
what?
And if you can't see that themoney is there, it's a lot
harder, I think.
Cecilie Conrad (41:02):
I think you're right and I think a lot of
people are caught up in theconsequences of choices they
made before and some are to anextent where even I, with my
radical viewpoints, can see that, okay, this one's actually
quite hard to get out of.
But I personally, you lost yourchild and it was horrible and
that was a very big part of somesort of change in your life.
(41:26):
For me it was when I had cancerand when I survived that one I
really felt I'm just never goingto have a job again.
I don't want that and I wouldactually rather live in my car
than I would send my kids toschool.
(41:46):
And when I had that thought I'drather live in my car.
It was more or less just a car.
It was a radical thought in mymind.
I thought, okay, if I have tolet go of my house to do this,
if I have to choose betweenhaving my kids around me and
doing this the way I feel isright, or having the house,
(42:07):
because that's a real thing forme and for many of our listeners
.
It's a real thing when youchoose to unschool that you
might have to let go of yourhome.
It's a real thing when youchoose to unschool, that you
might have to let go of yourhome.
For me personally, I mean, Ididn't do it to begin with for a
long time, thanks to thiswonderful man, we could stay
there.
But I did feel it deep in myheart that I would actually
(42:30):
rather sleep in the back seat ofmy car and I think this I can't
do it.
You could do it, you're solucky you could do it.
I cannot do it because there'sthat and the other.
At the end of the day, it's aquestion of priority, of working
hard for it.
I remember when we did aninterview with a lady who
(42:53):
unschooled her one child.
But from the day she realizedunschooling was an option a
thing that lots of people,including myself, live a long
life without knowing, you canactually just not put your kids
in school From the day sherealized, oh, I can do that to
the day where she could actuallydo it, because she was a single
(43:14):
mom and you're not selling yourhouse in one day and maybe you
don't even have a car to moveinto.
But what she did was she satdown, she made a plan.
So if I am to home educate mychild, what would that take and
how can I get there?
Just every time this comes up,some people can't do it, some
people are caught up, somepeople don't have the option.
(43:35):
True and not true.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (43:38):
I definitely agree.
I think that in the end,everyone could choose to do it.
I think there are two elements.
There's the practical stuff,like economy and where do you
live, and so if you have anexpensive house and you have a
lot of debt and that you have tomaybe sell it and live
differently.
But there's also the inner youhave to want to do it and you
(44:00):
have to truly want to do it.
I think some people are drawntowards the freedom aspect of it
, but then maybe they try it inthe early years of school, and I
don't know, because I haven'tdone it yet.
But my idea is that I thinksome people try it out and they
(44:21):
still haven't committed 100% todoing it that way.
And you need to do that as well, Because if you're not trusting
that this is the right thing todo, your kids will not trust it
to be the right thing for themand they will end up asking to
(44:42):
go to school, maybe because theycan sense that you actually
think that maybe that would bebetter for them.
So I think it's like a twoparallel roads besides each
other.
Cecilie Conrad (44:57):
And there's also the whole de-schooling process.
If you only unschool for a yearand it's a five-year-old
whatever age actually thechances of arriving at a place
where you've actually let go ofthe idea of specifics that the
child will keep looking for,those curriculum-based kind of
(45:18):
academics, does it look likeacademics, and for a long time?
For all of the time it doesn't,and so a year is just not a
long time enough.
But I think maybe we shouldcome back to the question of
de-schooling in a year or two,anna, and then you can reflect
on where you were today, in ayear or two, anna, and then you
can reflect on where you weretoday.
Jesper Conrad (45:38):
Anna, for people out there who are where you were
some years ago, what would yourbest advice be to them?
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (45:48):
I think I rely on something that we have
talked a lot about, cecilia, isthat you can always change your
mind.
It's not a choice and thenyou're like set in stone.
You can choose to do this andif you feel like it's not the
right thing to do tomorrow, youcan change.
(46:09):
You don't have to be fullycommitted to doing it forever,
and maybe they can make it lessscary because it becomes less
radical, and I think a lot ofpeople need it to be less
radical.
You can also start out by doingschool at home if you think
that is what you feel safe in.
(46:31):
So, if you can find a placewhere you feel comfortable and
then try it out, I can feel thatI've already changed a lot.
So, just like trust, trust theprocess and always return to
what Gandalf says right, it'swhat we do with the time that is
given to us.
Cecilie Conrad (46:48):
Yeah.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (46:48):
And I think that's something I uphold
very much when I get lonely orin doubt or whatever.
I get lonely in this lifestylebecause we don't have a lot of
homeschoolers here where I live,but the time with my children
are worth it.
Jesper Conrad (47:05):
I think Gandalf is a wonderful place to end the
episode.
Anna, thank you a lot for yourtime.
It has been interesting to hearabout your process.
I know we have been part of it,but still it's fun to hear your
reflections on it.
So thanks a lot for your timeand good luck on the journey.
Anna Vestlev Sandfeld (47:23):
Thank you , and you too.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.