128: Jamie Rumble | Beyond the Classroom: Learning Emerges When We Stop Teaching and Start Living - Self Directed

Episode Transcript
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Jesper Conrad (00:00):
Today we're yet again together with Jamie.
Rumble, rumble, yes, rumble,yep.

Jamie Rumble (00:06):
Yes.

I was just when I heard it.
I was like that's weird, that'sa fun name.

Cecilie Conrad (00:11):
Good name.

Why is your last name Rumble?
That's a good question.

So I actually that's my stepfather's name.
He adopted me when I was around, I want to say, 10 or 11 or
something like that.
My parents divorced when I wasseven, so, yeah, my original
last name is different.
My original father's fromHolland, so my original last

(00:37):
name is a Dutch name, but I tookmy stepfather's name and I
believe that it's like a Norsename by way of Scotland.
Yeah, so I think it may havebeen like the etymology of like
rumbled or something like that.

Okay, that can be yes, Because when I heard your
name and I was like am I sayingit correct?
Because something can rumble.
Yes, yeah, I got all confused ifI mispronounced it, but yeah,
yeah, that that aside, we hereagain today because we had a
really good conversation.
People should go listen to thefirst part if they want to, or

(01:17):
just jump into this one, and wewanted to continue it.
So here we are, and if I, if I,had been super planned, I would
know where we'd left off, but Ididn't.
So I will just hand the torchto you and hope they will do
better.

Yeah, okay.
So I mean, there was so muchfood for thought after the first
session together.
We, I think at some pointtowards the end, or one of the
themes that we were talkingabout was the inspiration for
the eco-pedagogy and planetarycitizenship lens, that I'm

(01:55):
looking at digital nomadism asan adaptation and looking at a
curriculum that would actuallyteach that adaptation to kids in
schools or future generations,given that we may be looking at
a future that involves morepopulations in migration due to

(02:16):
climate change or climatecollapse.
But one of the things we didtalk about was the roots of the
eco-pedagogy and planetarycitizenship kind of pedagogy.
I guess is from the educatorPaulo Freire, a Brazilian
educator and, as I mentioned,one of his initial works was the

(02:37):
Pedagogy of the Oppressed, andso we were kind of talking about
oppression a little bit, Ithink towards the end and kind
of it was a good dialogue andpart of the pedagogy that Paolo
Freire puts forth involvesdialectic, like dialectical
conversation.
So I think that's what we werekind of doing throughout the

(03:00):
first podcast.
I'm hoping for a little bitmore of that dialectic.

So let me jump right into it.
When you say about thepedagogic when I hear that word,
I'm thinking about differentteaching styles.
Is that correct?

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Then there is we made an interview with Patrick
Ferenga, who's in the wholeunschooling movement, and he had
looked into the world education, which come from educata, which
means draw forward, and I thinkthere's a very, very big
difference in teaching anddrawing something forward.

(03:42):
Educata is what the if Iunderstand him correct and I
remember it correct is what thebaby does and the mom
breastfeeds, informing the bodythat, hey, please produce milk
to me.
With this in mind, I wasthinking back to my schooling
and I often praise the fact thatI was in a class that was a

(04:03):
test class.
They made us to a test classfor two years, together with a
project in Denmark in my youthwhere we had a more holistic way
of teaching, which was that wewent, for example, out and
visited a stream nearby and thenwe did all the different part
of a curriculum around that.

(04:24):
We did math on the stream, wedid biologic and all these
things and history.
Where does it come from?
How had it been straightened,et cetera, et cetera.
And that is one of the things I, when I look at the way
teaching is done in schools, canmiss that it seems like it is
not a connected knowledge, andthat is also you talk about the

(04:49):
environment, where I think thatif people could just put stuff
together it wouldn't be so damndifficult.
If you one day go out with aflag and say fight the
oppression, we fight for climatechange and I think I mentioned
in the last one then you go overand buy something in Burger

(05:10):
King or your big ass flag ismade with something you bought
for it.

It's cheap shit from plastic from China.

Yeah, it's cheap shit from China.
So it's like, hey, there'ssomething wrong sometimes where
people they think very insidethese pillars.
And I think that's one of thebiggest challenges and one of
the joys I see with living amore nomadic life but also

(05:36):
having unschooling as aphilosophy in the way we are
drawing for knowledge togetherwith our children.

Yeah, I'm fascinated with our children.
Yeah, yeah, I'm fascinated withthat concept of unschooling,
partially because, well, there'sa lot of inspiration behind
that, for me at least.
I started my master's initiallyin the early 2000s, when I was
living in Japan and had to dropout for personal reasons, when I

(06:05):
was living in Japan and had todrop out for personal reasons.
But one of the textbooks thatwe read at that time was the
Underground History of AmericanEducation by John Taylor Gatto.
He taught have you heard ofthat?

I've read it yeah.

Yeah, and that kind of just blew my mind.
You know the roots of educationin the West, predominantly in
the West, uh, the I mean the wayit was set up by conglomerates
and colonial powers, essentially.
We did talk a little bit aboutcolonialism last time.
So, yeah, it was a long kind ofhistory for me to.

(06:43):
In a sense, almost I wasradicalized because I realized
about my own education and theeducation system worldwide, or
at least predominantly in theWest, is based on institutions
and like brick and mortarschools.
And I guess one of the thingsthat I'm curious about with you

(07:05):
know what you're doing with yourfamily, is that you know the
curriculum in the school ismobile and I believe that if we
are moving into a climatecollapse, reality and a nomadic
reality, the schools as we knowthem right now will be redundant

(07:29):
.
There will be no need for kidsto stay in physical schools in
the future.
I just don't see it as being,yeah, we need change and I think
being nomadic, having nomadicschools and nomadic classes and
classrooms and as well withecopedagogy, it is that

(07:49):
interdisciplinary approach toeducation, a more holistic
approach to education.
So I think, yeah, I'm curiousto know more about your thoughts
on that, and especially sinceyou have read John Taylor Gatto
how that impacted you,especially since you have read
John Taylor Gatto how thatimpacted you.

It's a little bit hard to answer the question
because there's something in theframing of it, something in the
way that you are thinking.
I mean, I like ourconversations, but I just have
to say this out loud it doesn'talign with how we're thinking.
So we have a different basicreality, I think, from you, and

(08:29):
the mindset that we areapproaching the world with and
making our choice on isdifferent.
So I don't necessarily believeor don't believe in a climate
collapse.
I have chosen to not care aboutit because there's nothing I
can do about it.
Anyways, I'm sure I said thatin the first episode actually.

(08:51):
So for us, it's not aboutwalking into a potentially
disastrous future and beingready for hell arriving or
something like that.
That whole discourse is one ofthe reasons I've chosen to not
worry about it, not read aboutit, not talk about it, not be
part of it.

Because I don't like the negativity.
But, cecilia, just to makethings clear, when you say
there's nothing I can do aboutit, it sounds like you don't
care, and that is not real yeahyeah, but it's just so we get
that point in that.
Of course it's not that youdon't care.

Well, I wasn't done talking.
Okay, no, but it's just becauseI feel.
I just want it to be clear thatthese are not the reasons we're
doing the things we're doing.
It's not to adapt and preparefor a dangerous future.
And when I say I don't care andI don't worry about it, I don't

(09:53):
, I don't speak that language.
It's not like I don't careabout the planet and I don't
care about the future and Idon't see that there are some
major problems.
And I feel I mean we've done asa family, we talked about it,
we made our choices, we'vedecided we can stretch this far.
If we want to do even better.
It's too much.
We're not doing that Because,of course, we could be not

(10:16):
nomadic, or we could be nomadicwalking.
Then we wouldn't burn anydiesel.
We could start growing carrotsand eating only what we produce.
We could plant a forest.
You know, there are lots ofthings we could do that would
make it even better climate-wise.
And, looking up, we could spendevery Sunday picking up plastic
.

(10:36):
There are many things we coulddo.
Or we could fight humantrafficking.
Or we could work with at-riskyoung people, because we have a
lot of resources and knowledge.
There are many thingscontributions we could do with
at-risk young people because wehave a lot of resources and
knowledge.
There are many thingscontributions we could do that
we don't do.
We've chosen.
We go to this point and this iswhere we stop, and one of the
things we don't do is we don'tworry about it because we've

(11:00):
worried about it and this iswhat we can do and that's it.
So the reasons we're doing theunschooling and the nomadic life
it has to do with I mean, we'remore, I think, unschoolers than
we're nomadic, or maybe theroot cause of both is that we

(11:23):
want to have many options and wewant to have the freedom to
choose what makes the most sense, and that freedom has a lot to
do with what's inside in ourmindset, how we function as
humans.
We just talked before wepressed record about how I just
had a nap right before this, andI learned to nap.
I couldn't do that 20 years ago.

(11:45):
It would disturb my rhythms toomuch, but I have learned to do
that because I want to be moreadaptable.
I want to be able to sleep fourhours, get up, work, do what I
need to do and then get somemore sleep, because there's also
a goodbye party tonight with along table with people.
I want to enjoy that as well.

So this whole.

Adaptability and the ability to hold discomfort,
to hold insecurity, to hold notknowing is part of my freedom,
because if I can hold that, I'mfree to choose options that make
more sense, are more fun, makea bigger impact.

(12:25):
So it's not just about having avehicle that could take me in
any direction, it's also aboutbeing able to have a good life
inside this context.
That is quite unpredictable.
That is quite unpredictable andsometimes on some levels not

(12:50):
optimal, like if it's just myhair is greasy and annoying and
I want to wash it but I have towait until tomorrow because
there's just simply no showeraround that I can borrow or buy
or whatever.
So these things are our reasons.
We want to live a meaningfullife, we want to be not
restricted by our ownpsychological makeup setup and

(13:16):
not restricted by having optedinto a school setting where you
know the contract is you educatemy child.
The child is there five days aweek, 200 days a year, at eight
o.
You know the contract is youeducate my child.
The child is there five days aweek, 200 days a year, at eight
o'clock in the morning.
And also, I wanted to saysomething about the unschooling,
because you talked about thestream and how you learn many

(13:38):
different things from what wouldtraditionally be different
academic areas like biology,math, history.
Looking at the stream, and itwas a great school you were in
and the experiment was reallygood, but it was still a school
with a curriculum.
There was still a plan withthat outing.
There was still a plan for whatexactly he needed to learn and

(13:59):
how he needed to learn it.
And we don't do that to learnit, and we don't do that.
We do that if someoneexplicitly asks to learn a
specific skill in a specific way.
We will support learning aspecific skill in a specific way
.
But we don't go to streams totalk about math, biology and

(14:20):
history.
We talk about math, biology andhistory when it makes sense,
because we're curious andexplorative and we we just want
more, more out of life.
That sounds so lame.
We, we, because we are curious,because when we're at the
stream, we wonder why is itstraight for the next two

(14:41):
kilometers?
That looks weird, or what?
Why are there that manybutterflies right here and not
over there?
Or what's that weird plant,whatever it is, and we enjoy
figuring it out.
Or we remember a poem or a songabout streams, or we remember a
stream from another country andwe talk about the different

(15:02):
elevation, how the plants aredifferent, whatever, but it's
not planned, there's nocurriculum and when you said
this thing about schools willhave to be something that moves
around and whether there will bea collapse or not, whether we
will have to all be nomadic ornot, the whole idea of the

(15:23):
adults or the elite of some sortknowing what the rest of us
need to learn, I opposed to thatidea.
It's bad idea.

I think a prescriptive sorry, a
prescriptive pedagogy to, tokind of point the way forward.
That's the word, maybe.

Would anyone really know the way forward?
Or is it better that we allexplore and we all do what we're
good at and we all becomereally good at what we're
passionate about and we trydifferent things out?
Say we have a climate collapse.
Say we have a real catastropheand we have to fix it.
Climate collapse Say we have areal catastrophe and we have to

(16:07):
fix it.
Maybe we need more than oneoption, more than one experiment
, more than one solution.
Some people move around, somepeople build better houses where
they are, some stick to thecurriculum and teach 10
languages and some letcompletely go.
Some become really good atsailing because they think it
will be all sailing, and somebecome really good at making

(16:27):
electricity out of something Ican't even imagine right now.
I think we need, if we are to,and I think we are to survive.
As humanity, we're quitecreative and we've adapted to
many different things.
Look at them.
People lived in Greenland 300years ago.
How did they even survive, halfof them?

(16:49):
It baffles me.
So humans are adaptable and weexplore many different ways of
living, and so we need to do inthe future and we've always done
it and we will keep doing it,and we will find different
solutions.
I think it's really dangerousto imagine that someone comes up
with a plan and we all have tofollow that plan.

(17:10):
I agree.

And I think what you're pointing to, that kind of
philosophy of not like an allor nothing type curriculum.
You know, and I think that'sone of the interesting points in
history where we are right nowwith and I'll say that climate
collapse is not some far off,distant occurrence there are

(17:36):
many in the field of educationand other fields who believe
that that actually startedalready.

So we are actually in the process of
witnessing it's a slow thing andwe see it because it's weird,
like the boiling frog syndrome.
I think that's where we are.

Yeah, yeah.
But I also think that, as youmentioned, there's not going to
be just one curriculum goingforward.
There's no band-aid solution,and that's why I was attracted
to ecopedagogy and planetarycitizenship, because it is a
more holistic, multidisciplinaryapproach versus the model that

(18:20):
we've had pretty much for thelast few decades, which is
education for sustainabledevelopment, which is still
focusing on development as theend goal and still seeing
technology as the provider ofsolutions.
So I do agree with you that thefuture, if it's nomadic or

(18:40):
whatever semi-nomadic, or peoplein place, better, better design
things like that, um, we're, weare, I think, needing to
embrace more the kind of poly ormulti-modal existence, that
there's not just one way ofliving, there's many ways of
living, and that's what I findfascinating about the, the nomad

(19:02):
world, is that there's therewas this concept initially and
of the, you know the digitalnomad, but the more I'm meeting
and talking with nomads, I'mseeing that each person is
bringing their own livedexperience and their own
knowledge and, um, it's afascinating group of people to
study.

(19:22):
So, yeah, I, I agree with a lotof what you're saying, that, and
I think that's where we need tocome together as as and my, my,
I guess responsibility I feelas an educator is to promote
more of these.
You know multimodal ways ofthinking, rather than and we
talked, I think, in the lastpodcast or the first podcast,

(19:44):
about the philosophy by Deleuzeand Guattari of nomadology, of
thinking nomadically, so wedon't necessarily need to be
following one particular path wecan, you know, diverge, and
that a lot of reality isactually emergence, like you

(20:05):
mentioned going to the creek,and whatever emerges from that
experience is what kind ofcaptures your attention.
So I do see that also as being,rather than having committing
set in stone, that you allowcurriculum or knowledge or
whatever, or life to just emerge, and then it's rhizomatic, it's

(20:26):
coming up where you leastexpect it, or or sometimes where
it's needed most.
Yeah, so a lot of food forthought sugartamitra we talked
with.

He said that learning is a an emergent
phenomena.
It will emerge.
You cannot keep it down.
You can, by the way you'reteaching, you can make people
uninterested in learning, andthat can be a challenge.
I would like to ask you aboutthe planetary citizenship,

(21:01):
because I live my life as Ibelong where I am, I feel at
home where I am, and differentplaces.
But there's also differentcultures.
The world is not one culture.
There's some places where Idon't know the history, I don't
know the religion, so all thesethings would make it difficult

(21:25):
for me to go in and live as alocal, because, of course, being
grounded in a local culture,you actually need to have a
quite big knowledge of the worldaround you at that point.
So I I would like to hear whatyou mean with the word.

(21:46):
What is meant with the word?
Because probably he's thinkingthat's kind of how I live, but I
always believe there will benot necessarily borders, but
there will be cultures andhistory, yeah, yeah, yes, all
the time, and that you cannotlive like, hey, we are one big,
happy family because we havemany clans many families, many

(22:14):
people on this planet.

Yeah, well, I think at least the evolution of
curriculums, let's say, if welook at like education for
sustainable development, thatwould be more of the globalist
view of of you know.
I guess global studies wouldmaybe be an example of that,
where you are compartmentalizingcultures and countries, and you
mentioned about, you know,borders.

(22:34):
I think planetary citizenshipis recognizing that we are a
collection of cultures and someof those cultures are also
emergent, given that our realityis constantly changing but also
that the borders that we'vedrawn are largely based on a
colonial past, and so being aplanetary citizen is recognizing

(22:59):
that.
You know, the borders don'tnecessarily count for much in a
future reality, especially withclimate change or climate
collapse, because if you'restuck in one of those countries
and your freedom to move islimited, yeah, absolutely.
I think the future will involveredrawing boundaries.

(23:21):
Whether or not we haveboundaries or not, I don't know.
Personally, I'd prefer that wedidn't have boundaries.
And so there is a politicalaspect to ecopedagogy and
planetary citizenship, becauseit does call into question
boundaries, movement, freedom ofmovement.
So there is, I think, a lot offolks in the environmental
education space who are lookingat other models, or you know

(23:47):
more than just one model and oneof them.
That seems to be, if we'rethinking about like more of a
political reality, maybebioregionalism makes more sense
if we're going to have groups ofpeople or groups of cultures
even that are interacting and tokind of meet their needs in
that space, if that space is oneparticular type of bioregion.

(24:11):
Maybe that makes more sensethan having you know the
colonial past type borders andcountries on a map like we have
now.

Yeah, we might move in a direction of more
having instead of countries thancompanies.

Well, you can dream on, but man they're strong
the states and the companies.

It's not like I mean, I can see what you mean
and how it would make sense.
I just don't see how it changes.
But that's another thing Idon't worry too much about
because I'm definitely not goinginto politics.
I think what we're doing if wewant to somehow ping pong this

(24:54):
with our lifestyle.
One of the things that we didthink about a lot before we
started traveling full time.
We embarked on this when ourthree youngest were six, nine
and 12 years old time.
We embarked on this when ourthree youngest were six, nine
and 12 years old and we knewthat that meant that for the
little one, the majority of hischildhood and for the two other,
well, at least half of theirchildhood would be growing up on

(25:15):
the road in different places,and for us it would also mean
that we would learn to adapt alot.
And one of the benefits, one ofthe things because we don't do
curriculum, we don't push foracademics of any specific sort
or musical instruments oranything that you have to

(25:36):
rehearse 20 minutes a day andyou have to learn this, that and
the other.
But we do think about how theframe, the way we set up our
life, how that affects ourchildren and what would be the
benefits, the ideas behind it,and one of the ideas behind
becoming fully nomadic was thatthey would become extremely
adaptable and they would learnhow to walk into a new culture,

(26:00):
humbly knowing that they don'tknow it and open to
understanding how things workhere and that they might work in
a way that doesn't makeintuitive sense to me.
That might even offend my senseof of justice, my sense of
peace, my sense of happiness andand I might have to learn to

(26:25):
navigate via some completelydifferent navigational points
than where I come from, mighthave to learn a language, I
might have to do things with mybody in a different way from
what I'm used to and I have towork through those emotions,
growing up like that indifferent cultures and contexts,

(26:46):
and that can be locallydifferent.
Just moving from one city toanother, I can also be globally
moving between countries.
There was a lot of thoughtbehind that.
When we started that, we thoughtthis is a very good benefit in
life, no matter where and howthings evolve on this planet

(27:07):
with humanity.
This will be a good card tohave on your hand.
So in that way, yes, thenomadic lifestyle.
You could maybe even say thatthat was kind of a curriculum or
a design, a thing we knew theywould work by design.
Yeah, it wasn't the reason, butit was one of the big, big

(27:27):
benefits that we saw from doingwhat we did.
And it has been painful, it hasbeen troublesome, it has had its
, it's been sometimes living, ithas felt like obstacles and
trouble and hard work but it'snever been out felt like
obstacles and trouble and hardwork, but it's never been out

(27:50):
balancing the joy.
We've always been happy.
I'm just saying it hasn't justbeen, you know, happy vacation
on a beach for seven years.

No, and then more than I think we would have had
if we had lived in one place.
When I look back at the time,we lived stationary instead of
nomadic.
It was also sometimestroublesome.
Difficult Stuff happened inlife, so it's just a movable
life.

Well, and it's the kind of problems we thought
that we would get that wouldteach us the things we wanted to
learn.
I mean, in that way, there wasa design thought behind it that
we wanted this life and theproblems would be these, but
that would teach us this skillset that I would say we have
today it's been a long time andthat skill set we thought no

(28:43):
matter how your life unfolds,this is a good skill set to have
, it's a good mindset and it's agood skill set.

And then the question can you move this over
to how to teach it?
But we don't want to teach.
No, no, no.
But if you come from aneducational viewpoint, then I
think it's very difficult toinstitutionalize unschooling and
a freedom mindset, becausethere's two things that happen.

(29:20):
One is you separate yourselffrom your child and then you
outsource the care of your childto someone else.
So there's, from the child'spoint of view, is a trust issue.
It needs to learn to trust astranger.
That affect your relationshipwith your parent.
How do that?
Which kind of confidence or adifferent confidence in life

(29:43):
does this give you compared tobeing in a family and learning
inside the family or the smallvillage?
So this is one of the basicdifferences.
Before we talk, what you learn,it's just a matter of you
separate from your loved onesand you are told go over to this
person.
I don't have a relationship tothis person.

(30:05):
That is your teacher.
I don't know him, I can't evenremember his name.
Now you are to trust thisstranger in my life.
This gives a basic differencein trust in life, I believe, and
that is one of the things why Ithink it's very difficult to
create the same kind of organiclearning, because the basics are

(30:29):
different.

Yeah, totally.
There's so much to unpack withthe last few minutes of what you
said, and I think that's one ofthe reasons why echo pedagogy
to me seems like it's soinclusive, like it's not
necessarily prescriptive and italso includes as a practice the

(30:56):
dialectical process, that it'san ongoing conversation, that
it's not necessarily, and that's, you know, interesting for me
as a researcher because I'm alsotrying to pin down what is
ecopedagogy and there's been,you know, a little bit written
about it.
But one of the kind ofpredominant themes that's coming
out is that it is notprescriptive and it is not

(31:19):
necessarily, you know, set instone and that it is emergent,
necessarily, you know, set instone, and that it is emergent
and it is rhizomatic, and thenthe dialectical practice is one
of the key components of it, sothat there is this ongoing
conversation and the needs ofone particular group of people
might be completely differentfrom the needs of another group
of people in a differentlocation or even maybe in the

(31:40):
same location.
It's it's it's like more of ademocratic, purely democratic
process.
I guess Some of the otherthoughts that kind of came up
through, cecilia, you werementioning, I guess I was
hearing a lot of emotionalintelligence and values-based

(32:00):
thought processes, about the waythat you were educating your
kids.
But I also thought of, like, howthere's good trouble that comes
from being nomadic or being inplace.
Even You're going to havechallenges, but in my experience
as well, being in Japan for 17years there's so many challenges
that kind of just pop up on adaily basis, whether it's

(32:23):
language, culture, whatever work.
And I think if you're teachingfuture generations to be
emotionally intelligent,emotionally adaptable and have
more of, like, a values-basedmindset, I think that's also
preparing future generationsvery well for, you know, for

(32:47):
trouble, any kind of trouble, ifit should arise.
And it just reminds me of theconcept.
A lot of teachers use theconcept of teachable moments and
that's what that trouble seemsto be.
Sometimes it's like, okay, waita minute, like this is a
teachable moment.
But I'm wondering your thoughtson that oh, should we fight

(33:08):
over it?

I want it no, no, no, I will change mine very,
very shortly but I also wantedto add to that.

As digital nomads, the other thing I've noticed is
how so many digital nomads andand I'm kind of hearing it
through you as well is that youare curating your life.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you are actually, yeah,and for a lot of you mentioned
last time the Instagram nomadsthey are curating their life but

(33:36):
also commodifying and showingyou know a specific curation of
their life.
So just those kind of twothings curation of their life.

So just those kind of two things.
Yeah, I don't know if it's therebellious anarchist soul in me.
I do not like the word teaching.
It comes from a worldview whereyou, as the adult, have a goal
with what the one you areteaching something needs to
learn.

I should clarify, I'm just going to jump in.
So one of the things that PaoloFerreri talks about is that the
role of the teacher is actuallyteacher-student and the role of
the student is student-teacher.
So breaking down that barrier,yeah, and I feel you on the
anarchist rebel soul thing.
My first job at a universitywas canvassing for Greenpeace

(34:31):
During the French nucleartesting in the South Pacific.
And just to kind of touch onculture, to backtrack a little
bit To this day, the interviewwith Greenpeace, and that was in
london, ontario and canada.
Um, one of the questions I'llnever forget during my interview
was I imagine that.

(34:51):
So the interview said imaginethat I'm.
I am a cannibal or a headhunter.
How are you going to convinceme that my lifestyle is wrong?
And that's.
That was just a fascinatinginterview question for me.

Both terms curating my life and teachable
moments are terms that I've metmany times and with both of them
I don't like them for more orless the same reason.
I'm not curating my life,designing it so that I'm better
prepared for the future, or Ilook smarter on Instagram or

(35:28):
anything like that.
I, like everyone else, have aset of options.
It's a quite big set.
If you look at your life, youhave many options.
Some are nitty-gritty littledetail versions of more or less
the same option, but it's stilloptions, and I have spent a lot
of time a lot of it inconversation with my husband, a

(35:52):
lot of it in conversation withmy husband and children to
figure out what's important andto know exactly how does my
value system work.
So when I have a set of options, I choose the one that makes
the most sense.
You could call that curating,but when people talk about
curating life, it sounds as ifI'm setting it up by design so

(36:18):
that I get the best outcome, Imake the most money, I learn the
most, I get in front of theline, and it's actually not that
I am choosing, and everybodychooses all the time, even when
they don't know they're choosing.
Even not choosing is a choice.
So if you're not clear on yourvalues and you're not used to

(36:39):
thinking, stop and think.
Okay, what are my options?
Why am I choosing this optionover that option?
Does it make sense?
Maybe it does.
Maybe it looks like it'sridiculous to choose this option
over that option, but if itmakes no sense to you and the
people you love and the projectsyou want to support, go that
way.
Not everyone will go that way,but some will.

(37:00):
So if you don't know thesethings, you choose blindly, you
choose mindlessly, you chooseaffected by advertising and
netflix series and emotions andand fears and and I don't know
habit, a lot of habit.
Um, so, and and I think that'ssad, so it sounds so when people

(37:23):
say we curate our life and wethink a lot, well, as long as we
agree on what that means anddoes not mean, then I can say,
yes, I curate my life, we curateour life, and we do it
completely leveled with ourchildren.
It's not like Jesper and I havethe first actually they have
the.

So they're the student, teacher, teacher
students as well.

The thing is I don't think anyone has the
authority Anyone no.
So if I think teachable momentsthis is a big deal inside of
the home, education andunschooling world that people
talk about teachable moments andif you have that mindset as a
mother in a homeschoolingcontext or a father in a
homeschooling world that peopletalk about teachable moments,
and if you have that mindset asa mother in a homeschooling
context or a father in ahomeschooling context, you'll be

(38:09):
like jumping at it and be thisannoying.

Oh, there it is.
It's a teachable moment.

Let's have a cup of coffee and talk about
colonialism.
And where does the coffee comefrom?
What temperature?
It can be so annoying.
You're so annoying to listen toand you're not pushing and you
have this agenda of pushing andwe're back to I think I
mentioned foie gras last time.
You're pushing things down thethroat of your children.
They did not ask for notinterested.
They're banking, they want tohave a cup of coffee because

(38:36):
they want to talk to you aboutsomething else, but you're not
there for it because you're allfull of your teachable moment.
You want to quote someone andyou want to so, and I think that
whole thing, every moment inlife, is a learning journey.
Everything that happens, youcan and will learn something
from it.
You don't have to step back andthink what can I teach them

(38:58):
from this walk to the creek?
This?
walk to the creek, because ifyou're there in a flow of
presence and community and justopen-minded interest, then you
come home and you'll learnsomething.
And maybe you can't know thatin a little notebook Today we
learned about these ninedifferent beetles, but you come
home smarter.
It's a byproduct I say thatvery often.

(39:21):
It's just a byproduct, a rippleeffect of a meaningful life
that you learn stuff.
Sometimes you learn stuffbecause you sit down and want to
know, but most of the things welearn in this life we learn
because we're fully engaged,fully present, maybe even in a
real flow around something thatcan totally absorb our mind and

(39:44):
we just cannot help but keepgoing Teachable moments.
So if I have that mindset, I'mthe teacher, right, or what?
Or am I looking for teachablemoments and teachers all the
time, or could I maybe just flowand trust what's going on

(40:04):
around me?

So that's, I mean, I appreciate and agree with so
many points that you just made,and I'm also wondering what role
does reflection play?
Because that is also a keycomponent of ecopedagogy, and
Freire's philosophy is thataction is one part of life and

(40:27):
learning and reflection isanother key component.
But then the dialectic alsoincludes that.
The dialectic is both actionand reflection and you can't
separate the two.

So one of the things I enjoy most by traveling
and learning languages is partof the reflection.
It's the wonder, is for me, thepart of the reflection, it's
the curiosity.
I kitty people who only talkone language and at the other

(41:05):
side I'm like oh my God, youhave so many great moments ahead
of you.
Go learn another language.
It will be a joy.
Because if you go in and learnanother language and if you're
English speaker, I would say golearn one of the Latin languages
, because there's so many rootsof your words that come from

(41:26):
Latin and if you don't knowwhere they come from, you are
using the words wrong, You'renot understanding them.
And that's one of my big joys inlife is looking at a word,
seeing how, if we take theweekdays, for example, what they
are in Danish, what they are inSpanish, what they are in
English, then the for me funpart was to see oh, I learned

(41:50):
about the Spanish words and, ofcourse, the dates are also
aligned with their gods of theirtime, the Danes.
We did the clever thing.
We were like oh so you haveweekdays, that's cool, but we
don't have Mars as the god ofthe fighting, as they have of

(42:10):
the planet.
We have Tjur, so that's whyit's Tjur's day, which
translated into Tuesday.
So your English Tuesday comesfrom Tjur's day in Danish.
That is because we took Mars.

That's not Mars, that's Neapolis.
Martis, martis, yeah, yeah,yeah.

Sorry, no, no, it's fine.
So these things you can onlyponder and wonder about if you
know the different languages,and for me that is reflection,
that is, the more you learn, themore you are able to pick
different stuff together and putthem into this mixing bowl of
of stuff that is super fun tofigure out.

(42:48):
I love the thing with the.
The.
The days I got I had a blast oflooking into why it's called
going to the loo, going to theJohn and all these things.
For example, going to the loocomes from and I cannot
pronounce it correctly it is Godlittle loo.

(43:09):
In French that means take careof the water when they threw out
the morning bucket and that hasbeen diverted into the loo in
English because they made fun ofit or use the French word or
whatever.
So there's so much joy inlanguages and that's one of the
things we meet when we meetnomads.
Many of them only speak Englishand I'm like if you really want

(43:33):
to have fun and learn, go learna local language.
And take one of the Latin ones,or Spanish, french, italian, all
of them, because it's quite fun.

I have a different take on the reflection
, not that I disagree with you.
It's fun to play with thoughtsand I love learning languages
and playing with words.

Yes.

I don't disagree .
I just have a different thing Ithink is relevant to talk about
with reflection.
Relevant to talk about withreflection, which is I've
noticed that the majority of oura lot of time in our family and
in our life we're usually withother people.
So most of the time I'd say 95%of our days we spend with more

(44:20):
people than just the five of us.
But even if we are just thefive of us, a lot of time is
spent talking, and so it's allcarried by conversation, what
you would call the education myeducation and my children's
educations carried by all theseconversations that we have

(44:42):
between ourselves, inside ourcore family and with the people
that we are around, and thewhole reflection part.
It's very easy to see that ifthere is an experience of some
sort and it could be any sort,it could be you read a chapter
in an interesting book, youplayed, you did a bus fight in a

(45:02):
computer game.
It took forever to win, and nowyou finally found this winning
strategy.
You won, uh, you had a social,social interaction that's hard
to understand and it put you ina weird place.
Could be what could be all kindsof experiences.
I see that we talk about themand we talk about them until

(45:23):
they are done.
So I just had that discussionwith someone today.
I wonder who it was.
Whatever about how a story isvery long until it's settled
inside.
So if you have to talk aboutyour three weeks in Thailand,
thailand, when people ask youhow was that, and you talk about

(45:45):
it for an hour and a half, youcan tell all the details.
That's because all of theimpressions, all the things that
happened, they're still notsettled inside.
Or you had a conflict with yourmother-in-law Not that I have
conflicts with mine, just forthe record With someone.

She doesn't, I actually don't.
I like her mother-in-law.

If you have a conflict with someone but it's
over, then if you hear yourselftalk about it when people ask so
how did that story end?
And you talk about it for anhour, it's not over Because it's
not settled.
And I think the conversationsnot for everyone, because we're

(46:26):
not all the same.
Some people need to work withtheir things in different ways.
Some people actually settlethings by drawing, some do it by
running, some do it bymeditating, by alone doing
something that works for them,but a lot of people they do it
by having these conversationsand using other people and the

(46:47):
conversation with other peopleas a mirror, emotionally and
mentally, even spiritually.
So there's a lot of reflectiongoing on and we sometimes have a
conversation and one within ourfamily could say do we really
need to talk about this again?
And sometimes we actually don't.

(47:07):
But most times someone will say, yeah, I really need to settle
this, and so I don't know and Idon't know why I need to.
I had that yesterday.
I needed to talk aboutsomething.
You got a little bit annoyed,like do we really need to talk
about this?
I know it's annoying, but Ikind of I feel the pressure.

(47:28):
We need to talk about it, and wetalked about it for about 20
minutes and I found out oh,there's the rub.
And then I knew what theproblem was and I could
completely let go of it.
So there's a lot of reflectiongoing on all the time.
We don't have time to watch tv,or anything like that.

We need to, but the key point in the way we are
living is time.
That's what you have as a nomad.
That is a nomadic family.
All of us are working from home.
I don't go to a co-workingoffice I I wouldn't never dream
of it.
I would like to sit and workfrom the comfort of my family to

(48:08):
see the hours I put in.
What good are they doing?
Other people are happy.
Stuff is happening.
That is wonderful.
I'm happy as well.

And you can imagine me serving your little
coffee.
Yes, yes, no, no.
What happened?

No, but so what we have is time, and I think
that that is one of the thingswhere the breaking down of the
family, clans, the smallvillages, it has restricted
people to smaller and smallerunits where there's less and
less dialogue.
If you go in and look at thestatistics of how long time does

(48:44):
one child have with an adultper child in a school setting,
then there's a lot of dialogueone-to-one.
If we just do the math, it'slike one child, one teacher, 24
children, eight hours.
Here we have okay, we havethree children, but we are two
adults 24 hours, and then wesleep, of course.

(49:06):
Yeah, yeah.
It's a skewed math problem.
It's a skewed math problem, butthe idea is the same that we
have time.

And can I also say, if you add to that idea of
the time to have theconversations the idea of the
teachable moment, if I have theteachable moment mindset and
agenda every time I talk with mychildren, how am I listening to
their agenda?
How am I having a conversation?
Is there any time left for meto talk about my emotions, the

(49:36):
things that bother me?
Is there any time left for meto talk about the things?
Or to put into the matrix it'snot like it's about me all of it
, obviously it's not.
But what if I'm superinterested in something that I
just got interested in?
It has nothing to do with thatcreek.
We're walking along the creekand no one's seeing it, because

(49:58):
we're discussing and I'll sayshakespeare again, because we
happen to fall into theShakespeare trap all the time or
we're discussing whatever,something in Nepal or the next
knitting project, because that'swhat's top of mind.
If I have the teachable momentmindset whenever I talk to my
children and my or my husbandand my time to talk with them is

(50:22):
limited because I'm going toone job and he's going to
another job, and then I have theyoga class and the wine club
and all the things that I'mdoing and you're in the boxing
club and we see each other inthis.
We even have to put it in thecalendar.
And my kids they come home andtheir head is full of friends
and school and extracurricularstuff and then when I talk to
them I need to get them to dotheir chores and homework.

(50:43):
When do we ever have thisemergent flowy relation
situation where we are justtalking about whatever makes
sense to talk about?
So that's another reason I'magainst this whole teachable
moment mindset.
Teachable moment mindsetbecause it throws us off.

(51:08):
And I think the teachablemoment mindset for a lot of
parents who let go of the schoolsystem, who might even, on top
of that, be nomadic, so they'reout there, but they still feel
this responsibility to educatetheir children and they think
I've met a lot of people likethat.
So they think, okay, but thenwhat I do is I jump at all the
teachable moments, because lifeis full of teachable moments.

(51:29):
So whenever we see a butterfly,we need to learn the Latin name
of it, and what flower does itneed to breed, or whatever.
It ruins it.
It ruins the point of it, itruins something of deep value,
and there will be a day wherethose children who really are
interested in butterflies willlearn these Latin names and

(51:51):
plants.

So before you ask your next question, I would
like to praise you, jamie,because, a you ask wonderful
questions and B you're a goodlistener and for for us it's
kind of fun on this podcastbecause it's often very
guest-based, where we areinterviewing a guest, so it's
super fun for us to just say alot of the things we have on our

(52:13):
mind as well yeah, well, thankyou intellectual level of this
yeah I think we often have a lotof chit chat, and here we can
actually use the brain well,here's what I wanted to kind of
reflect back to so many things.

I'm going to try and maybe knock them off as they
kind of emerge in my head Flow,flow, state, wonder, the
narrative aspect, as well as alot of conversations about time

(52:48):
and I would add that to.
I always like to think of timeas kind of more in the physics
way of thinking, whereas it'stime-space and I think that
that's another reallyinteresting aspect of nomadic
life is that you're not justmanipulating or maybe that's the
wrong word manipulating, you're.
You're considering your time,but you're also considering your

(53:13):
space.
But the other, I guess part ofthis narrative, and especially
when I think about eco-pedagogy,the dialectic, even teachable
moments and reflection is that Ithink that this approach to
education or and it's anemergent approach and that's why

(53:33):
it's so hard to define or putdown, but even.
I think, with regards to time,it's non-linear, and so I think
teachable moments as well don'tnecessarily need to be emerging
in that moment.
I think the reflection aspectof the ecopedagogical approach

(53:55):
allows for the teachable momentto sometimes come much, much
later, at a different time,maybe when you're ready, much,
much later, at a different time,maybe when you're ready.
But I think also when we shareour narrative, when we storytell
, the meaning changes as wechange, and so that's why
sometimes I feel likestorytelling is a huge part of

(54:15):
just being human, because we arealso learning and reflecting on
our own change and developmentand growth, and so those
teachable moments are sometimesreflecting back to us.
Now you're ready for thislesson, and so that's why I
think the whole concept of timeis nonlinear.
It's like a ball of yarnsometimes where you're looping

(54:39):
back.
But I did want to also reflectto you in this area.
There are the indigenous people,the Mi'kmaq.
They've been here for 13,000years and I've talked to some of
their educators about how theypass knowledge or, you know,
teach or whatever, and there wasone story that I heard where
there was a grandfather, elderin his canoe, with his grandson,

(55:03):
going down the river, and theyhit a rock and capsized and had
to swim ashore and you know theygot all wet and cold.
And the point of the story wasthat the grandfather knew that
the rock was there but he didn'ttell his grandson that that was
a rock to avoid, because hewanted his grandson to learn

(55:26):
there's a rock there.
And I just I can't stopthinking about that story
because I mean they could havegotten hurt.
One of them could have dieddrowned.
But that is the kind ofindigenous approach to maybe
it's more a creating more spacefor the younger generation to

(55:47):
learn or to live or toexperience.
And so maybe I wonder sometimesif the Western mindset of, of
curating or even through likethe Montessori kind of early
childhood education, whereyou're creating provocations,
you know, putting things outrather than just letting it

(56:09):
emerge.
I'm just wondering what yourthoughts are on that.
And then I had another question, I guess, on citizenship, that
maybe we can kind of end on.

Yeah, before answering the question, I
couldn't stop thinking about theword reflection.
To reflect on something.
Need to go look the word up,but if I understand it, as I
understand it, what myimagination tells me is that you
reflect yourself in something.

(56:39):
That means you see yourself inwhat is shown back to you, which
is kind of fun when you take itand say what reflection do I
see of myself by being in thissituation.
So I need to figure out if it'smean what I think about
reflection comes from.
To reflect that means somethingis shown back to you, because I

(57:02):
find that interesting as a wordto use about learning, because
then it is that you seesomething and get to see
something about yourself inwhatever you're studying.
So me, but maybe I'm wrongabout the word.
I have to look it up.

So that deflected.
That did, but maybe thedeflection is even a reflection
question to be answered, so muchso that I kind of even forgot
how exactly is the question.

And you take the question again because I
deflected and you said so manythings, and I think the thing
about time and space and whenand what do we learn in this
life?

I would like to touch upon that now that we've
lost the question.

Yeah, no, that's okay, and I guess it wasn't
really.
It was a good question, it wasjust a presentation, but then I
lost it, so now it's mine.

I trust the process.
I think life is a good master.
It teaches us things and Ithink if I'm being a little bit
religious about this I think we.
That's why we're here.
We're here to learn, we're hereto explore, we're here to
expand, we're here to grow, andthe reason we experience things

(58:26):
is to learn from them, and Itotally agree that we don't
necessarily need to learn fromthe moment that we're in, or I
more feel, because we will learnfrom the moment that we're in.
There's no way around it.
We can resist it and that willcause a lot of pain, but why
would we?
But what I see is I'm 50 yearsold now.

(58:50):
I have four children, one ofthem is more than half my age,
and so it's been this lifestylefor a long time.
I've had a lot of experiencesbefore I became a mom, a lot of
different settings of my life,and I see how now, when I
experience something, the layersof the things that come before

(59:12):
will stack up and make a veryinteresting mirage.
You remember these things thatyou look through, with all the
mirrors and the little piecesthey fall and it makes this
beautiful pattern.
Then you turn it a little bit asa different what I don't know
the word kaleidoscopekaleidoscope, okay.
So I feel like you get more andmore little pieces of glass

(59:33):
inside your kaleidoscope when,when you grow older and you have
all of your experiences,especially if they have been
talked about, reflected upon andand they found their peace
inside, even if they don't,sometimes you have an experience
, a trivial one, but it somehowpokes something that was never

(59:55):
settled a long time ago.
It could be an emotion thatcomes up, it could be a need, it
could be a passion Some saypassion, something like oh, I
just really need to do this now,and that's a big stone in that
thing for a while and and thenit all falls into place and you
turn it and some things fall outthe focus, and in that way,

(01:00:16):
life becomes in many ways richerand richer the older we get,
especially if we have our thingsmore or less I wouldn't want to
say in order.
There's no order to it and inthat way it makes a lot of sense
to to us to say that the thingswe learn from moments sometimes

(01:00:38):
realized way later or utilized.
Even so, what I can learn rightnow from this conversation is
very different from what I couldhave learned had I had it when
I was 17 years old and that'seasy to understand when it's
about something intellectual.
But it's the same thing withemotions.
It's the same thing in half anhour when I drive to the beach

(01:01:00):
and jump in the water.
It will be a differentexperience for me to do that and
I will learn something and takesomething home with me that is
different than it would havebeen had I not been in all kinds
of other waters and other kindsof places in my life.
And even other things can stackon top of that and become
sometimes it's a poem, sometimesit's in the mind that you know

(01:01:24):
all these things that stack andyou remember and you feel.
Sometimes you just flow and youdon't think about it so that
time space is and, in a way,time becomes bigger the older we
get.
So some of my friends who arealso 50 years old, or maybe
older, they are like, oh, butwe're more than halfway and the

(01:01:46):
time is ticking, and when can Iretire?
And I'm sure I'll have a badknee 10 years.
They're looking at the end.

Jamie Rumble (01:01:54):
Yeah, I'm just getting started.

Cecilie Conrad (01:01:56):
But also it's just the quality of life changes
and I think time expands in afunny way and things that happen
sometimes they happen now butin the past.
Does that make any senseClearing up something or
changing the perspective?

Yeah, so that was my five cents for that.
I still want to have thatquestion again.

the perspective, yeah, so that was my five cents
for that.

Jesper Conrad (01:02:22):
I still want to have that question again, but
also yes, but we need to getback, yeah.
I will not go away from themirror analogy.

I will take one more thing with it no, it is
because you have done a lot ofco-living and it had made me
look a lot upon how we aretogether with people in life.

For example, when we lived in Denmark, sometimes
my parents threw a birthdayparty or something.
We could use a longer time incommuting back and forth than we
were there.
And then it's a formalizedsetting oh, you meet, you greet,
and you sit and eat dinner, etc.
Then it's a formalized settingoh, you meet, you greet, and you
sit and eat dinner, et cetera.
When you co-live, which a lotof nomads do, or are in close

(01:03:03):
community with each other, thenwhat happens is that you have
again time, but you also, whenyou live together, the other
persons become a mirror towardsyour life.
And I say this I have thissmall saying that it is not
always you see, you like whatyou see in the mirror, but it's

(01:03:25):
not the fault of the mirror.
I have had other people spewingmirrors in my life where I saw
something in myself where I'mlike, oh, I need to change that.
I've been a mirror to otherpeople where they saw another
way of behaving, reacting indifferent situations, where they
didn't like what they see inthemselves.

(01:03:46):
Go back to the question, as Ithink I remember it was this
about the Western world and ourway of doing it.
I think we have become fear andgoal-orientated in our approach
to teaching.
We have a goal, but it'sfear-based.
It is kind of we want people toreach this point because we're

(01:04:09):
afraid that if they don't, theywill never succeed in life.
Therefore, it steps down intocontrol, not hope, and I think
there's a big, big difference.
I see a lot of fear in theStates when we talk with people
from the States, a extremeamount of fear.
I see it sneaking intodifferent countries, also

(01:04:32):
Denmark.
Some of the parenting is alsodone by fear and I am very
positive, I believe in in.

If you praise and are happy, then life is better
one of my favorite expressionsis by river phoenix, apparently
attributed to him by his brother, and he says run to the rescue
with love and peace will follow.
And that's kind of my, I guess,ethos when it comes to the work

(01:05:06):
that I'm doing.
You know, seeing that we may bein a climate collapse and
rather than approaching it froma place of fear, approaching it
from a place of love, that Iwill run to the rescue with love
and that, hopefully, peace willfollow, knowing that I'm not
able to do this all by myself.
Which is kind of bringing me tothe final two questions.

(01:05:30):
I had the concept ofcitizenship and the role of
beauty, because I also love theexpression by Dostoevsky,
because I also love theexpression by Dostoevsky beauty
will save the world, and I'mwondering if that is something
that is meaningful for you andalso just the whole concept of
being a planetary citizen whatare the rights and

(01:05:52):
responsibilities or any thoughtson that?

I need to be stupid.
First, because the thing aboutbeauty makes me remember a
highly educated, veryintelligent science journalist I
worked together with.
We talked about traveling andhe said he loved to pee, with a
perfect view, because it madehim remember the beauty even

(01:06:15):
better.
And I actually, of course mycuriosity was like oh, this
place is really pretty.
Will it be better if I pee?
And then I've tried that acouple of times.
I think he means that if yousomehow anger something with a
bodily reaction, then you deepenthe emotion.
That was maybe his point, ormaybe he was just stupid, but I

(01:06:38):
have done it a couple of times.
Yeah, it's a really good placeto pee this one.
The emotion that was maybe hispoint, or maybe he was just
stupid, but I have done it acouple of times.
Yeah, it's a really good placeto pee this one.

Yeah, just don't do it at the Taj Mahal.

No, no, and not at the Eiffel Tower.
They get so angry.

Beauty and citizenship.
That's a fun combo of concepts.
I think we have chosen a pathin life where we do not want to
play with fear and we do notwant to play with negativity.
We do not.
If we don't like the vibe, wechange it or we move.

(01:07:11):
We truly believe I think I cansay that for both of us that if
you approach all situations withlove, with a clear mind, with
openness, with peace, it is abeautiful situation.
There is beauty to be found andthe things you learn, you learn

(01:07:34):
them, you absorb, you adapt andand you find the path that
makes sense and is beautiful.
Even.
I mean we've been through quitea few rough times.
It's not like our life isalways dancing on rose petals.
It's been rough as well, but Ithink we've become increasingly

(01:07:55):
good at and we can certainly bebetter if, if the emotions are
not aligned, if we're not happy,if we're not and you're not
necessarily always happy but ifyou're not at least able to be
level and be okay and be lookingfor where is the beauty in this
?
Where is the option?

(01:08:16):
Where is the peace?
Where's the energy flowing?
Where can I find some sort ofjoy or energy movement that
makes sense?
Where's the light?
Um, if we can't do that, ifwe're frustrated and agitated
and all of that, anything we dowill just add to that

(01:08:39):
frustration and and not behelpful and not solve any
problems.
So we're trying to use negativeemotion, negative vibration as
a sort of alarm.
I imagine these flashing lightsyou also have on your dashboard
in the car if something's notreally working as it should.

(01:09:02):
You should pay attention.
So why am I feeling this?
Why am I experiencing this?
But maybe pull over, you know,stop the car, figure out what's
wrong before you keep going.
And so, as soon as you get allthe lights turned off and you
know what's wrong with the car,you can take it to the mechanic.
And in the same way, when youhave this disturbed thing, you

(01:09:25):
think it's in your context, butactually it's in you and you
find out.
So that match between theconcept and me is creating this
discomfort.
Where does it come from?
Once you know that, it's quiteeasy to solve it.
Usually it can be hard work,but you know what to do.
So I think that navigatingtowards beauty, if you want to

(01:09:46):
use that concept, or navigatingwith love, or navigating so that
you don't start a new movementbefore there's peace peace is a
very solid plan, a strategy.
It solves a lot of problems andit makes life flowy and
energetic.

(01:10:06):
But it takes a lot of innerwork.
It takes a lot of patience.
Sometimes it seems likeeverything is falling apart
around you and your job is tostop and just look at the whole
thing and not act.
You just want to run around andfix problems, but actually you
have to fix yourself first.
So that's a strategy we try toto put into work.

(01:10:30):
We can be really hard.
Sometimes we run around and fixproblems and thereby making
them worse.
We are not perfect at all.

I am not sure I can talk about citizenship I can
I don't know what I mean, no,but I have a passport yeah, um,
so I think I come from when Ilook back, before we started
traveling.
I come from a place of hey man,we are just one world.
There, don't need to be anyborders at all.
We are one happy family onMother Earth, gaia, the big

(01:11:04):
mother, and yes, but afterhaving traveled extensively in
Europe, which is where we havetraveled most, I have seen many,
many natural borders that makesuper much sense.
As I have walked from Portugalto Spain, we also wanted to walk

(01:11:28):
from France to Germany, andmany of these natural borders
that are interesting to visitare in big-ass rivers, where it
made sense that before you wereable to build a big bridge there
, different cultures formed onthe different sides of the river
.
So I believe in natural bordersand that cultures arises inside

(01:11:53):
these.
What is interesting is, howwill that redefine now that we
have not a lot of physicalborders left, because we can
either have from Denmark, theyare just building a very long
bridge to Germany To the tunnel,I think.
Tunnel, maybe even yeah, we haveone to Sweden where earlier we

(01:12:16):
should take the ferry.
People now commute in adifferent way back and forth.
It changes culture and it willhave an effect and we can fly to
different countries.
It has not yet evolved into theway we have states.
I don't know what it will do orwhat will happen, but I would
just say that going from anearlier mindset of the world is

(01:12:40):
one big, wonderful thing to see.
Oh, that's actually pretty farfrom the top of Spain to the
bottom of Spain, to the top ofAfrica.
If you stand there and look,you can look, but you can't get
over there easily.
So, yes, it's differentcultures.

I think maybe the term citizenship refers to
my.
I'm a citizen During the.
French Revolution, peoplecalled each other citizen.

If we are to be planetary citizens, what does
that kind of evil?

The thing is, I am a citizen, so I'm just trying
to think what does thisactually mean?
Obviously, legally, right nowI'm a Danish citizen.
I have the passport, and that'sthe only passport I have.
But in a way it must refer tomy relation to a larger
community anchored in ageographical place.

(01:13:46):
And if we casually just use theword we usually refer to, what
passport do you have in yourback pocket when you travel?
Am I a global citizen?
I know that I'm a human and I'mpart of humanity.
I feel citizen.
The word sounds like some sortof political statement.

(01:14:11):
I think we've talked a lot withthe kids about it, about their
identity, growing up and not inone place and not with only one
language and not with only oneculture, and they say to us that
they feel very European, thatwhen they travel outside of

(01:14:33):
Europe they clearly feel thatthere's something about Europe
that they take with them that isnot there when they are outside
of Europe and they also canclearly distinguish between
different areas of Europe.
So, like feeling I'm partly this, I'm partly that.

(01:14:58):
I'm actually very Danish, I'mactually Scandinavian.
I know, now that I've beenliving outside of Scandinavia
for seven years, that I have alot of that with me and the kids
feel the same the older onemore than the younger one but
also they feel that there areparts of this that is not theirs
, that they have expanded intobecoming more European than
Scandinavian, that they haveexpanded into becoming more

(01:15:21):
European than Scandinavian.
I think really it's a layeredthing.
If I am to think about not mypassport, not the legal part of
it, not the borders and bordercontrol, all these things, but
what is my identification withbeing part of the whole circus?
I would personally say that I'ma citizen in Europe.

(01:15:43):
I think I'm European, like mykids.
I'm part of that, I understandit, I feel I know what I'm doing
here.
I might be a citizen in what iswrongly called the Western
world, but I'm not sure.
I think I have to use adifferent word if I'm expanding

(01:16:05):
it to my participation as abiological entity on the planet
and I would say I'm human andI'm part of humanity, I think
the citizen global citizen, Idon't know.
Citizen global citizen, I don'tknow.
I feel a lot of empathy withall of humanity and I feel that
I'm part of something huge andvery diverse and very

(01:16:28):
interesting and fun and andcreative and nuanced, and that
is humanity in all its manydifferent ways and forms.
But I might, as maybe it's, Idon't know, I don't know that
that makes sense.
Maybe the word has to changewhen it, when it becomes the
global thing.

I think it is, and I think one of the aspects of,
of ecopedagogy and planetarycitizenship that's appealing,
for me at least, is therecognition of, of of other
other being, not just human butalso more than human.
So rivers and mountains havingrights as citizens, as what as

(01:17:15):
they do?
I think in new zealand andmaybe some other countries,
they've actually bestowed uponrivers and places the rights of
citizenship, and so I do seeplanetary citizenship as
extending beyond the human.
And what is that going to looklike?
How do we even navigate that?

I would personally, if I was the king of
everything which I fortunatelyam not maybe use different words
.
I'd say the right to exist, theright to be that might not even
need the word right that treeis being and no one has the
right to take that away.
I mean, we all have the rightto be who we are and where we
are.
I know that in England a lot oftrees are protected, even

(01:17:59):
inside people's gardens.
You know, you can't just cutthat tree.

Japan as well.
Yeah.

And it's very nice.
But I think citizen.
Now we might have to look upthat word.
I don't know what's up with me.
I might have to have aconversation about that, but it
annoys me a little bit.

Yeah, the river, yeah, I agree.

I feel the word.
We never had the beginning, theright to violate that river.
It does not need a citizenshipand a passport and a document
and a rule book in order to flow.
It's a river.
It's just supposed to be here.
We never had the right to ruinit and if we realized we did, we
should fix it.
You know, just like if you eatyour mom's cupcake, maybe you
should go bake some more becauseyou made a mistake.

And that's a perfectly good way to end this
on a cupcake.
Thanks for listening foreveryone who stayed on.
It was a big question.

It was Thank you Thanks so much.

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128: Jamie Rumble | Beyond the Classroom: Learning Emerges When We Stop Teaching and Start Living

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}128: Jamie Rumble | Beyond the Classroom: Learning Emerges When We Stop Teaching and Start Living