August 21, 2025 • 47 mins
Adolescence is often seen as something to endure — awkward years full of turbulence and struggle. But what if these years could be a time of discovery, adventure, and growth?
In this episode, Jesper and Cecilie Conrad talk with Chris Balme on the launch day of his new book, Challenge Accepted: 50 Adventures to Make Middle School Awesome. We were introduced to Chris by our friend and former guest, Blake Boles, and quickly said yes to the conversation.
Chris shares why adolescence is one of the most powerful stages of development — with a brain growing faster than at any other time, and social awareness reaching new heights — yet why conventional schooling so often gets in the way. Drawing on twelve years of research with adolescents worldwide, he shows how adventures like starting a business, creating guerrilla art, or camping solo can help young people step into their capabilities and keep their curiosity alive.
Peter Gray, author of Free to Learn, praises the book:
“Buy this book for every middle schooler, or about-to-be middle schooler you know. It just might provide the spark that turns what can be difficult years into years of awesome adventure and growth.”
We also explore Chris’s own path from unhappy student to educational innovator — founding a lab school and creating an apprenticeship program that connected more than 17,000 young people with real-world mentors (including one who learned to fly a plane at twelve!).
🔗 Relevant links
- https://www.chrisbalme.com/
- https://www.instagram.com/chrisbalme
- https://www.facebook.com/ChrisBalme/
- https://www.amazon.com/Challenge-Accepted-Adventures-Middle-Awesome/dp/B0FJ2R8DY8
Books mentioned in the podcast
🗓️ Recorded August 15th, 2025. 📍 Lindale, Grange-over-Sands, UK
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:00):
Today we're together with Chris Balme, and
first of all, Chris, a warmwelcome.
Thank you for taking the time.
Chris Balme (00:06):
Thank you.
Thank you for pronouncing mylast name correctly on the first
try.
Cecilie Conrad (00:10):
Yes, even on the try, try yeah.
Jesper Conrad (00:15):
So, chris, the reason we are talking today is I
got an email from Blake Boles,who we have had as a guest on
our podcast, because he haswritten a book with the
fantastic title why Are youStill Sending your Kids to
School, or Children, I can'tremember it correctly and he
wrote me an email and said hey,you know what?
I think you guys would enjoytalking with Chris, so why don't
(00:38):
you invite him?
And he also has a book comingout.
So here we are.
That's more or less what I know, chris.
Chris Balme (00:46):
So here we are all right, we're starting pred.
Blake is amazing yeah, that'sthe title of your book well this
book is a conversation exactly,yeah, blake, and I have this
debate all the time as, uh, youknow, I'm still.
I have one foot in the system.
He has all, all body partslimbs outside of the system, and
(01:06):
we were trying to find ways tobring some of these ideas of
more self-directed learning forthose folks who are still in the
system or not.
And this new book which comesout today it's so exciting to
talk with you both on launch dayis all about helping middle
schoolers go on adventures sothat they can figure out how
awesome they are and change thestory of middle school, which
has got to be one of the saddeststories of any part of the
(01:29):
education system why?
Cecilie Conrad (01:31):
I was also wondering can you expand that,
because I find the whole thingvery sad yeah, yeah, I agree
with you define middle schoolfirst for those who are not
american that would be includingmyself.
Chris Balme (01:46):
Yeah, so in the states.
Well, a curious signal abouthow confused this time is is
that it doesn't have a cleardefinition, but the most common
is grades 6 through 8, ages 11through 14 in the us.
Okay, it's by year, give ortake here and there, and I think
most people, at least in the usand at least some other
countries I've been to, wouldsay this is the worst part of at
(02:06):
least the K through 12 system.
And the amazing thing to me ishow we replicate this story and
tell kids like oh, this is goingto be rough, this is going to
be awkward.
I hope you get through it asquickly as you can.
Cecilie Conrad (02:18):
And to me that is such a signal it's not going
to be quick.
Yeah, it's not quick.
That's like very logical tobegin with.
Chris Balme (02:25):
Yeah, and I mean, from the brain science
perspective, it's one of themost fruitful times of growth of
our whole lives.
Actually, your brain nevergrows faster than it will after
that, so we can do so muchbetter, and that's basically.
My whole work has been tryingto design better experiences for
middle schoolers in particular,in schools, out of schools and
(02:47):
now, through this book, gettingthem out into the world.
Jesper Conrad (02:56):
What made you write?
Chris Balme (02:56):
a book Because that's quite a big task to jump
into.
Personally, I can't not write.
It's just something that mybrain does to make sense of the
world.
I've been writing ridiculousnumbers of journals since I was
nine years old, but this bookcame around 12 years ago.
I was starting a laboratorymiddle school, kind of an
(03:19):
experimental school that wouldbe much more student-centered,
much more getting them out inthe world, and we were trying to
figure out how do we?
We need some kind of aframework so that we don't just
default back to the oldtraditional ways and the old
traditional curriculum.
So our thought experiment wascould we create a framework of
curriculum that was onlyexperiences?
So you couldn't define anything.
You know that was, you knowEnglish unit three, but just
(03:39):
only experiences.
And we interviewed people frommiddle school age through late
in life and asked them what doyou remember the most positively
about the middle school years?
And, of course, after peoplegot done sharing their traumatic
side, many of them had a lot ofthem said it was things like
you know, I started a business,I got my first job, I went
(03:59):
camping by myself, all of thesethings.
And so we just compiled thislist and in the last 12 years
we've been testing it with kidsall over the world in school,
out of school, homeschool, allkinds of things, and so this
book is the 50 things that wethink really work for middle
schoolers to go get out there.
Jesper Conrad (04:18):
Yeah, what is number 35?
Just to be curious, let's seehow good you can.
I have a copy here.
Okay, number 35.
Let to be curious, let's seehow good you can be.
I have a copy here.
Chris Balme (04:27):
Okay, number 35.
Let's start there.
Number 35 is, oh, it's calledTrain your Brain and it's about
different kinds of meditation,but trying to not do it kind of
the way that has been forced ona lot of kids.
So, if you know, sit down, bequiet, kind of the compliance
side of meditation.
That can be the dark side of itand rather have them feel like
(04:48):
it's just tuning in.
To use the old hippie word,it's tuning into what you're
noticing.
Favorite way to teach itamazing teacher at our school
was you know, kids would walk inin the morning when they were
doing this and there would belike a single strawberry in
front of each kid and thechallenge was just eat the
strawberry as slowly as youpossibly can and that's your
(05:10):
meditation, just noticing thingslike that and it's that really
on the curriculum nowadays,because my one of my hardships
with the public school system isthat when I hear about it, we
don't have our kids in it.
Jesper Conrad (05:22):
But when I hear about it, we don't have our kids
in it.
But when I hear about it, ithas become so controlled what
people need to learn on, onwhich time, et cetera that I can
almost be afraid that there'sno room for what you wanted with
your book.
Chris Balme (05:40):
I agree.
I mean.
That's why I think most of thisbook is about things that can
happen outside of school hours,where kids take more agency and
I think you're fans of PeterGray's work as well and that's
been a big influence and he waskind enough to write a blurb
that's on the cover of the bookabout.
Basically, this is a way tokeep your spark, keep your
curiosity during years, whenotherwise school can shut it
(06:02):
down.
I think middle schoolers maybeof any age group are really
babied and underestimated, kindof treated as younger, less
capable people than they are,and if they start to believe
that story, that's really theworst outcome of all.
So this is about things thatthey can do, where they realize
that they're powerful and thatyou know, for most of human
history these were people whowere out there doing things in
(06:25):
the world for other people andfeeling more and more valuable
as a result.
I think we've lost that alittle bit in school, so this is
meant to jailbreak them alittle bit.
Cecilie Conrad (06:36):
It's meant to inspire things to do outside of
school.
Chris Balme (06:40):
That's right.
Yeah, yeah, I can share more ofthe some of the challenges.
If you want.
Cecilie Conrad (06:49):
I have a thousand questions yeah, please
fire away I don't know where tostart because I have a really
big problem with the wordcurriculum and you mentioned
that.
But maybe we should skip that,then I also.
I I feel like I just have tounload my whole chaotic brain
right now yeah also I'm thinkingabout.
(07:09):
What is the trauma, the middleschool trauma?
yeah and can we reverse it bydoing something fun for the rest
of the time?
So if we are complying to theschool system and we're giving
up 30, 40, 50 hours a week tothat, can we fix all that trauma
(07:35):
by doing something fun on theweekends?
Maybe we can.
I'm not saying we can't.
I think you're trying to solvethe same problem as we're
usually talking about solving,by not doing school.
So I'm just curious.
Chris Balme (07:51):
It's on my mind too .
Cecilie Conrad (07:52):
Are we just putting a patch on the problem
by having fun on the weekends,or can we actually solve it?
And if we solve it, I wouldguess my guess would be that
school makes even less sense forthe kids once they start
getting agency and having somereal experiences in life.
Chris Balme (08:14):
I think you're right, you know it's.
I guess the way I think aboutmiddle school is first and
foremost developmentally.
And does school let kids dotheir developmental work or not?
And does school let kids dotheir developmental work or not?
And I think, unfortunately,traditional school directly
blocks a lot of thedevelopmental work that middle
schoolers need to do and that'swhy I think we see it as a rough
(08:34):
and traumatic age more thananything else, because we're
getting in their way.
For example, it's the mostsocially motivated time probably
in the whole human lifespan.
All your radar to read thesocial world has turned on.
You're flooded with newinformation you never noticed
before and all you want to do isfigure out how to make sense of
(08:55):
that.
If school says you know talkingwith your friend is cheating or
is disruptive will be punished,then you're fighting.
You know the strongest socialdrive ever and everyone's
frustrated.
But I do think for kids wherethere isn't an option, there's
no way to get out of the schoolsystem, that having other parts
(09:16):
of your life that aredevelopmentally aligned with you
, that let you do yourdevelopmental work around
identity and connection andcontribution, that's only
positive and, yes, it would bebetter if they could do that all
day, every day, but anything isbetter, maybe even creating
that gap and making even moredissonance and making the school
(09:38):
feel even less meaningful.
Cecilie Conrad (09:41):
It can hurt during the years of being
trapped in that system in caseyou are actually trapped in that
system, but having a feel ofthe other thing and knowing that
, okay, it actually does notmake any sense.
This, I just have to getthrough it because that happens
to be my circumstances.
It's probably better on thelong run, even though it's not
(10:05):
necessarily better in the moment.
Chris Balme (10:08):
I think so.
I mean, I think, yeah.
I mean, middle schoolers are sosmart and they can code, switch
, you know, they can understandthat there are different games
we play and you know differentparts of life, different rules.
So I think it's better for themto have access to a better game
, even if it makes the othergame more aggravating as a
result, and they might makedifferent choices if they have
(10:30):
more liberty in high schoolmaybe to select their path.
You know that could be informed, they could keep more of a
sense of agency versus.
One of the things that makes meso sad about traditional
education is how passive kidsbecome.
They that kind of like given upon the hope of making this
interesting for themselves orletting their curiosity lead.
So if we keep that alive, evenin the outside hours and of
(10:54):
course some schools are going tokeep it alive inside school
then you know all the betteryeah, it seems like there's a
growing number of alternativeschools and a lot of the
projects I hear about both in ukand the states.
Jesper Conrad (11:10):
I can tend to look back at denmark and being
like, oh, we only have like wedon't have that many free
schools and alternative schools,as I think there is a growing
movement worldwide that peoplewant something different for
their kids, so I think it'sgrowing one.
What are your favorite of the55 to do personally?
Chris Balme (11:33):
my personal favorite is there's one that's
called be a stealth artist, andthe challenge is to create a
work of art and then install itas if it was meant to be there
in some other place, like hangit on the wall of your favorite
cafe, for example, you know,non-destructively but just to
realize that you know art ismeant to break rules and move
(11:56):
someone else and put in your artup where it's not technically
supposed to be.
I think there's something aboutthat that speaks to the
adolescent urge to start tochange the world a bit yeah I
really like that one, yeah, yeahno, but it, it.
Cecilie Conrad (12:13):
I remember an american teenage girl we knew
she did as a prank.
I can't remember was it for.
Was it for valentine's day witha not a boyfriend, not a
romantic interest at all afriend?
They did the most awkwardcouples photos where they look
really weird and as if it wasthese posed couples photos.
(12:40):
They did a lot of them and theyframed them and then they put
them in all of their friendshouses everywhere.
They made I don't know 25 andjust put them up.
That's really funny.
That was actually that's kindof what we're proposing there
same, except it wasn't art.
(13:01):
Was it art kind of?
Yeah?
Chris Balme (13:03):
yeah, yeah, that sounds like art.
Cecilie Conrad (13:06):
It was a fun idea.
Jesper Conrad (13:07):
Yeah, and it reminds me of some of the street
art I love the most.
It's these, as you say,non-destructive, but with a
quirky smile on where they havedone something wonderful, and I
mean it just makes me smile andit makes me happy when I see
them Modifying street signs.
Modifying street signs.
Modifying street signs and it'syeah, it's super wonderful,
(13:28):
yeah yeah, yeah, exactly.
Chris Balme (13:30):
I think there's something that that's a part of
the gift that adolescents haveto offer the rest of the world
is to kind of modify our oldroutines, and if we let them,
that's how they keep us alive.
I think also yeah yeah, I don'tknow.
Cecilie Conrad (13:46):
I've been thinking recently about.
I had a really goodconversation a few weeks ago
with a transformational leaderfriend I have about about the
things we keep talking about.
We keep talking aboutunschooling my husband and I,
because we're unschoolers, and Iwill keep talking about
unschooling because I think itis one of the best strategies
(14:08):
for allowing for our offspringto make sense of the world as
they grow up.
But actually unschooling is away of solving the problem that
the school system we have andbasically the whole culture
around bringing up children it'svery outdated and in many
(14:33):
countries not so much in thecountry we come from, which
makes us a little bit offsometimes when we observe it.
But in many countries therelationship between parents and
children and between teachersand children is very, very much
not leveled.
So it's a very top-down thingwhere we are way more equal with
our children and teenagers inour society our former, where we
(14:59):
came from before we becamenomadic.
So the problem really is thatthe way we do childhood doesn't
really it doesn't exist inharmony with the reality of the
society the kids can clearly seethey will be part of when they
are 25, let's say, and we thinkunschooling is a very good way
(15:23):
of.
If we just take schooling outof that system, we take the
whole idea of curriculum out ofthat system, then it becomes way
better.
But there are other ways to doit and what you propose is one
of are other ways to do it andwhat you propose is one of these
other ways to do it.
We're trying to solve a problemand there will be several ways
to solve it.
So, even though having fun inthe weekends is not going to not
(15:47):
be painful, weekdays maybe doyou think there is a spillover
effect definitely.
Chris Balme (15:54):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's also each kid's
journey, you know, through thiscould be so different.
So you know, I have three kidsone goes to a traditional school
, one goes to an alternativeschool and one I'm unschooling.
So I'm kind of I feel like Ihave hands in all the whole
thing yeah very confusing, butthat's because of what they've
chosen and what seems to beworking for them.
(16:15):
You know there are kids thatwant the huge thing that school
has is so many other kids andthere are kids that just want
that social environment but aremaybe not being served by other
parts of it.
So yeah, I think anywhere wecan get this in around the edges
and help them.
You know, like I was sayingearlier, when they do their
(16:35):
developmental work then theymake developmental progress and
they go beyond.
That kind of belonging iseverything stage.
You know you've got to startthere, but then you can go
beyond it to figuring out how doI achieve things?
And then how do I achievesomething that's authentic to me
, where I'm bringing myself outinto the social world, knowing
their consequences.
Jesper Conrad (16:56):
If they can tinker toward that in some part
of their lives, I think itaffects how they show up in in
all parts so, chris, there is umone very obvious thing that
just came to my mind, which iswe haven't mentioned the title
of your book.
We just started talking yeah,so, so, so please tell me about
(17:24):
the title about of your book.
And also, as I said, we gotthis email from Blake, so I
actually didn't look into ifthis is your first book or if,
where are we with the whole?
Chris, tell me a little moreabout yourself, the name of your
book and your way to it.
Chris Balme (17:39):
Yeah, so this is book baby number two.
So the first one came out threeyears ago.
I thought actually this one wasgoing to be the first, but it
took longer to gestate.
So the first one came out andwas called Finding the Magic in
Middle School, and that's reallyto help adults make sense of
middle school and understanddevelopmentally whether you're
in school or out of school justwhat are kids driven to do at
(18:00):
that age, so that we can helpthem and not accidentally battle
them, which so often happens.
But the whole time I was writingthat book I was thinking I
really want to write directly tokids and so that's what this
book is.
So it's called ChallengeAccepted subtitle 50 Adventures
to Make Middle School Awesome,and it's written completely for
kids.
(18:20):
Everything in there has beentested by lots of different
middle schoolers all over theworld and it's basically you
know after a short intro.
Just it's a choose your ownadventure kind of style 50 short
chapters.
Each one gives you kind of awhy this might be cool.
You know, feel free to crossthis out if it's not cool to you
, but if it speaks to you,here's why it might be cool and
(18:40):
then, like a very practical,here's how to do it.
And that's it.
That's the complete book nice 11to 15 was the age yeah, yeah,
11 to 14 in the US.
Jesper Conrad (19:01):
I would accept the sneaky art.
Yeah, I would accept that one.
I like that idea.
Chris Balme (19:08):
I think one of the most fun ways to use it, if
you're going to bring it into afamily setting, is to have the
kids give the parents thechallenges and then, in the
course of choosing one for theirparents, they may notice some
that they're intrigued by aswell yeah, so how is the plan to
get the book used?
Jesper Conrad (19:27):
is it through the school, through the teachers,
or is it to the parents thatgive it to their child?
What is, what is your plan withit?
Chris Balme (19:34):
Yeah, my dream with it is that kids discover it by
accident.
I think that's the ideal way,you know.
So I had a Kickstarter campaignto help produce it and everyone
who supported it.
I'm sending them extra copiesand asking them to leave them in
random places where a middleschooler might walk by.
So I think that would be mydream.
(19:55):
They just see it like what isthis strange colorful book and
flip through it.
Second to that would be thatsome adult who's just really
cool and intriguing to them youknow, their cool aunt or someone
like that just passes it tothem.
Check this out, no questionsasked, kind of thing.
And then, of course, parentsand teachers are very welcome to
(20:17):
give it as well, but sometimesthat comes with more
complications or expectationsbut that has to do with that
ruined relationship I talkedabout before yeah I mean some
parents, some children actuallydo trust their parents to come
up with good ideas, even in themiddle school age.
Cecilie Conrad (20:40):
I mean a lot of relations are good and we could
also build on that and maybe itwould be even good for a
struggling relationship betweena middle school child and the
parents that parents read thebook first came up with.
Hey, we could do all these funthings instead of doing chores
(21:02):
and math and whateverextracurricular adult composed
time kind of way we spend thetime that we have, the precious
time we have together we're inthe situation right now that one
of our kids have just left usjust for a month for a month to
(21:23):
go traveling with her boyfriendand you sit back with.
I mean, we have a surplus ofchildren, so we have enough to
play with.
Jesper Conrad (21:31):
But you get that feeling.
Cecilie Conrad (21:35):
They are really precious, the hours we have with
the children.
So even the slightest little,I'll force you to empty the
dishwasher.
Why would I?
Why would I sacrifice theconversation we could have had
or the fun we could have had orthe music we could have heard,
or whatever, in order to do somesort of top-down, trying to
(22:02):
think that I can teach you howto be a good person?
I think we've learned a lotabout how to handle life and how
to be a good person, how tohave fun and how to live in
accordance with your values, andall these things from our
children, exactly when they'vebeen in these years between 11
and 14.
Jesper Conrad (22:19):
Damn, they're wise, they really are yeah, we
see the with our youngest.
Sometimes then like I findmyself talking to him like he's
a young one and then sometimeswhen, when he talks, I'm just
like blown back.
I'm like oh yeah, you're 13.
And oh man, you have so much onyour mind.
(22:41):
Sorry, because he's my littleone.
Cecilie Conrad (22:44):
Yeah, we kind of forget, because he's our fourth
child and he's 13 years youngerthan the oldest.
I want him to be little.
Jesper Conrad (22:52):
Yeah, just some years.
I remember how it was when Iwas young myself and all the
thoughts I have when I was inthis age group and you don't
feel respected by adults often.
Cecilie Conrad (23:07):
Because you are not respected.
Yeah, it's an accurate sensethis is because you can see
right through things.
Chris Balme (23:14):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that's you know.
So many parents, traditional ornon-traditional, are so shaken
up by this age because theydon't see that the speed of
change is shocking chances toreset your relationship because
(23:35):
you're going to be unless you'rereally aware of this, you're
going to be kind of shocked andhave to constantly update your
model of who your child is.
Maybe it's the chance to breakout of the old kind of boss you
know, adult control mode, and bemore of a companion.
Cecilie Conrad (23:49):
Yeah, the sooner you do that, the the better.
Chris Balme (23:51):
Exactly.
Cecilie Conrad (23:52):
Yeah.
Chris Balme (23:54):
It's going to get rough during these years.
If you don't, they will let youknow.
Jesper Conrad (24:04):
Chris, which of the challenges are your kids
most tired of?
If you have used them astryouts, they're like Dad.
Not again, not that one.
Cecilie Conrad (24:10):
I'm not doing any more random art putting it
up.
Yeah, exactly.
Chris Balme (24:14):
That's a good question.
I have to say, my own middleschool daughter was definitely
the most ruthless editor of thisbook.
She went through it and heldnothing back.
Yeah, let's see what are they.
I'm just flipping through ithere.
The one that she wants to donext is kind of a classic one.
(24:34):
It's to create a time capsuleand kind of take some memories
from this age with her bestfriend and bury them in the
backyard, which I think will befun.
So that's next on her plate.
Let's see.
My own child rolled her eyes atthe challenge that is called
find awe in nature.
It's like yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
But I do know other kids whoreally enjoyed that one.
So you know, that's the chooseyour own adventure style of it.
Jesper Conrad (24:56):
I have done some time capsules, mostly for fun.
One was when we rebuilt thekitchen and then I put in a note
underneath where I just saidwhy did you break down the
kitchen?
It's just me having fun with it.
Cecilie Conrad (25:11):
You also put something under a floor once.
Yeah, I also put somethingunder a floor once, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (25:14):
I also put something under a floor.
One of the floorboards wasbroken and needed to be changed
before we moved out of anapartment, and I slid in a note,
and I think that is 20 yearsago maybe, and it still hasn't.
I have never heard from them.
Do you know, though?
Cecilie Conrad (25:29):
No, we had some very good parties in that
apartment, yeah, wow.
Chris Balme (25:35):
That, no, I we had some very good parties in that
apartment.
So yeah, wow, that's a greatinspiration.
This is the adult version,maybe a challenge accepted.
Cecilie Conrad (25:39):
Well, we did it with the kids.
I think maybe also just ourmindset is I'd like to read that
book, I mean yeah, we do thesekinds of things with our
children.
That's the only thing when youlet the child find it and
randomly do these things.
A lot of things we do projectstyle.
We like to do them together.
(26:02):
We like to find projects likethis Could be go for a walk, it
could be do an art project,Could be whatever kind of time
capsule.
Right now we're doing handdolls to make theater.
We usually try to findsomething where at least three
we're a family of a lot ofpeople.
(26:22):
We're accumulating as ourchildren have romantic
relationships now.
So we have four children and twosons-in-laws now.
So we're usually a lot ofpeople, at least three of us
before we start a project,because we realized that, as you
said, the social part of it,and I think, yes, it's huge in
(26:44):
middle school years, but it'shuge in life, really social life
.
I want to be social.
I don't want to miss out onspending time with people I love
, yeah.
So we make these kinds ofprojects and we usually, at
least if three people areinterested, we'll start a
project.
It's very rarely we do thingson our own.
Chris Balme (27:05):
Yeah, I love that.
I mean that.
Just it speaks to how wellyou've maintained those
relationships and not falleninto the usual trap of feeling
more and more distant as theyget older.
Jesper Conrad (27:16):
Yeah, chris, I'm still curious on you.
You're from California and Ihaven't heard enough about you.
Which career did you end up in?
As you're writing about middleschool, I presume you ended in a
teacher role, and how did thathappen?
Chris Balme (27:34):
Very accidentally.
I mean, I was a reallyfrustrated and unhappy middle
schooler and high schoolermyself.
I went to very traditionalschools and I remember walking
out of the high school buildingthinking I will never set foot
in a school for the rest of mylife.
And of course that was achallenge to the universe that
requires more sense of humorthan I had in that moment.
(27:54):
And you know that was achallenge to the universe that
requires more sense of humorthan I had in that moment.
And you know, lo and behold,four years later I became a
teacher and I had a long, youknow windy road in those four
years.
Cecilie Conrad (28:04):
That was a short never.
Chris Balme (28:06):
Yeah, it's a short, very short.
Never, but I think I didn'tknow it then.
But I feel now like I was kindof called to that because I had
some healing to do.
There was something there thatwas kind of unfinished business
for me to think about.
You know, why did it have to beso bad?
Or did it have to be so bad?
And I feel pretty strongly itdid not, and there are ways to
(28:27):
make kids' adventures much moreadventurous and not kind of
being dragged through.
So to make a long story short,I've always kind of worked, I
guess, on the fringes of theschool system, you could say.
So first thing I did for 10years I ran an apprenticeship
program.
The idea was to let middleschoolers go do awesome
apprenticeships in any possiblekind of job and just connect
(28:50):
with the world and see thatthere's so much out there people
willing to bring them along.
We had kids like learning andwhat's your role, then?
Jesper Conrad (28:57):
to find the places.
Yeah, exactly what is the mostawesome you found.
Did one of them have anapprenticeship as an astronaut,
or something I wish Still?
Chris Balme (29:07):
waiting for that.
But yeah, I mean the very firstyear we started that program,
one of the first kids we gotsaid you know, we asked for
three choices and he said thesame thing for all three.
He said pilot want to fly aplane?
And I was like, oh great, howare we possibly going to make
this happen?
And I remember talking to myco-founder and we said you know,
(29:27):
we're going to make one phonecall and if it doesn't work,
we're going to tell him you'vegot to give us some other
options.
We make one phone call to alocal small airport flight
school.
Get this wonderful guy namedDave explain our situation.
We've got a 12 year old.
This is all he wants to do.
And he said yes, on the spot.
Jesper Conrad (29:42):
So I'll teach him how to fly.
Chris Balme (29:46):
Okay, well, that was a.
That was a lesson for me that Ihad underestimated how willing
people are to respond to areally motivated kid, and I mean
I remember crying on the sideof the runway while this kid
took off in a small Cessna plane, you know, at the controls.
So it's possible, and over 10years we had 17,000
(30:07):
apprenticeships that we createdso many Almost every job you can
imagine, including some thatseem like they might be too
dangerous to do Kids wereinvolved in, and I just think
it's to me it's one of the mostbasic ways that we can welcome
kids into the world and educate,but it's not commonly done.
Jesper Conrad (30:25):
Yeah, I think it's one of the best ways to
learn.
I love learning from people.
Chris Balme (30:30):
Exactly that's what we're wired for, I think.
So I did that for a long timeand then I wanted to start a
school.
So I felt like this is aprogram that gets to plug into
schools, but could we redesignthe whole school and make it
something much more kid focused,much more developmentally
aligned, and it's in that kindof sometimes awkward place where
(30:53):
it's still a school and there'sstill curriculum that word but
it also is, I think, a much morekid-focused place.
Jesper Conrad (31:03):
They have much more agency and you call it a
lab school?
Chris Balme (31:06):
Yeah, we call it a lab school Basically to try to
give ourselves permission, andwe're working with some
universities here on the WestCoast who wanted to put some of
their research into action.
We thought if we call it thatthen maybe people will know that
we're doing experiments andtake it less seriously in a
sense, or give permission thatwe can try something different
(31:27):
and some of them will not workand that's part of it.
Jesper Conrad (31:31):
It's one of the things I praise my school time
for is that the teachers we had.
There were three teachers thatwent together and were inspired
by a local alternative schooland we became an experimental
class in the public schoolsystem and it was only one or
(31:57):
two weeks a year for three years, but it meant so much to me
that we went out and allsubjects we had were centered
around one thing, for example,an excursion to a local stream,
and then math, history, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera
dived into that one, and I thinkit has helped form my holistic
mindset of trying to understandthings, that I, when I go into a
(32:18):
thing, I try to get thewholeness of it.
So I think making theselab-like schools will help many,
because I personally wouldprobably, if I went to school
today, have a whole alphabet.
Cecilie Conrad (32:32):
You'd get all the letters yeah.
Jesper Conrad (32:34):
I would get all the letters that you could give
someone, but I survived onhaving a big motivation and a
big dreamy heart and mind andthen I dove into some things.
That was really fun.
Chris Balme (32:47):
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, that's essentially howthe school that I helped to
start works.
It's all interdisciplinaryprojects and then adventures out
in the world, you know, innature, in the city.
Cecilie Conrad (32:59):
That's the school our only school child
have been in as well.
It was just based on what thekids want to do and on projects.
Jesper Conrad (33:07):
Oh yes, and even though I had a very I praise my
school for having had that.
I praise my school for havinghad that.
I remember as a parent I wasafraid when I heard about what
Cecilia planned for our daughterto go to this alternative free
school and I am the one of meand Cecilia who haven't went to
(33:28):
university.
I made projects, I made a filmby going to high school and then
when people have a gap year, Itook six gap years and stuff
like that.
But at the same time and Imentioned it because it's just
fun how stuff can flick in ourmind like that I saw myself as a
(33:53):
rebel who did what I wanted to.
But when my own oldest daughtershould start the school, I was
like, ooh, a free school, that'sooh.
I don't like that.
Can we get normal here?
Which was what I thought for somany years.
I don't know how it happens, yetI think normal creeps up on us.
Cecilie Conrad (34:17):
It does and we hear these voices.
It has a lot of momentum.
Chris Balme (34:21):
We're social-queued creatures and we just get
unconsciously tugged back tothat as a safe place.
But it's not that safe actually, if you think about what can be
lost there.
Cecilie Conrad (34:34):
Yeah, that's the thing.
All the things they don't dowhile they're trapped in that
system is quite scary, and allthe skills that are not
developed.
Jesper Conrad (34:45):
I'm curious about the connection from Blake.
How have you two met and whatis the connection?
Is it the learning or are youjust knowing each other from old
times?
Chris Balme (34:59):
Yeah, we were connected by a kind of radical
teacher who's one of thesepeople also, who's straddling
these worlds of school andunschool, and I think at first
it was around my first book, oreven a little before that came
out.
We started talking about beingwriters and getting these
messages out.
I also I started when thepandemic started, kind of like
(35:20):
an advisory program for middleschoolers from all over the
world that could just connectonline and more or less make
sense of what it's like to be anadolescent and have spaces for
really honest, braveconversations about that, and
Blake was thinking of doing somesimilar things.
We've shared a lot of ideasaround that, but it's become a
(35:41):
wonderful friendship.
We just spent a couple daystogether cooking up all kinds of
crazy ideas and reading eachother's writing.
It's so helpful Back to theimportance of being accompanied
on your adventure to have goodcompany, people who are wanting
to walk the same trail.
Jesper Conrad (35:58):
So being a writer , then I guess this isn't your
last book.
Are you already working onsomething new?
Chris Balme (36:08):
yeah you, you know me too well already.
Yes, I've got probably aboutfive something news in my mind.
The project that I promisedmyself I'm going to do next
after this book launches, is anovel.
It's uh.
Personally, I'm starting tofeel like the.
The freest space I can imagineto think through ideas I want to
think through is fiction, andwhich genre?
Jesper Conrad (36:31):
of fiction.
Are you in, then?
Which genre?
Chris Balme (36:34):
genre?
I think it'll be.
You know, I'm really takinginspiration for this project
from Ursula Le Guin.
I don't know if you know herwork Amazing American Sci-Fi, so
I think it'll have sciencefiction aspects to it.
She writes really beautifullyabout how, you know, she
contemplated kind of being aphilosopher but felt like you
know, no one's going to readthis, no one's going to connect
(36:55):
with this.
But if I write through story, Ican weave my philosophy in in a
way that might, you know,really come to life in other
people.
So that's my hope with it.
Jesper Conrad (37:06):
Yeah, I love that .
I actually just had a longdialogue with our oldest son,
soam, about science fiction,because he asked me so, dan, why
is science fiction yourfavorite genre?
And I thought about it and theanswer that came to me was
actually it's not because I likespaceships I actually don't
care about spaceships oranything of all this.
(37:28):
It is because I see it asthought experiments of what if
this happened and continued.
A lot of them is a satiricalview on something, a strain in
society.
And then, if you enlarge thatduring 200 and 300 years, I
actually find science fiction assome of the most critical of
(37:51):
our current society, where theyare just taking one thing and
then they're enlarging it.
And, as I said, spaceshipdoesn't do a lot for me, but
often that is the setting,because it's kind of easier to
accept than a parallel world.
It's easier to see it someyears in the future.
So I personally love that aboutscience fiction.
Chris Balme (38:12):
I'm the same way and I love spaceships, so I
really it has everything I couldever possibly want.
Jesper Conrad (38:17):
I have to recommend a book.
Chris Balme (38:19):
So the Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin is one of my
favorite books of all time.
And it's exactly that.
She takes these two societiesand just follows them for
hundreds of years One morecapitalist, one more socialist,
communist.
And it's not a simple story.
It's not like, oh, one of themturns into a utopia.
It's two complicated societieswith people interacting, and I
(38:42):
love it.
It just makes me feel so aliveto read.
Jesper Conrad (38:45):
I will read that as my next one and if I must
give a recommendation back then,there's an Italian author who
actually made me want to learnItalian on a level where I could
read some of his books thathasn't been translated into
English.
He's called Stefano Beni and inone of his books there's just
(39:07):
this idea that made me laugh allthe time.
It is I think it's the onecalled Baol, but the idea and I
love it is that every day atmidnight there's a new subject
that you are allowed to talkabout and you're not allowed to
talk about anything else forthat day, and then it changes at
(39:27):
12.
And I just it's such a goodkicking the nuts on society
where people they just have thislike what's in the news talk
about that for the whole daywith their colleagues and then
the next day a new story in thenews, and I just love it that it
is by law I love that idea,coming back to adolescence, of
doing social experiments, likeone of the most fun projects we
(39:50):
did at the school I started was,you know a couple weeks where
students basically were.
Chris Balme (39:54):
they had permission to do experiments on each other
and social experiments and theywere trying to learn a good
experimental design and controls.
But you know, you'd walk downthe hall and all of a sudden
someone would rush up with youknow, ask you a question, give
you a donut and then ask youanother question right after
someone was experimenting on you, not with anything in the donut
(40:15):
, but with you know how thingssomething like that would make
you feel or change your mood.
I think that's such a fun,playful thing to do with kids,
yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (40:23):
Can I contribute to the sci-fi conversation
Please, because I actuallyofficially don't like sci-fi?
Okay.
I feel a little kicked out ofthe conversation here.
I feel a little kicked out ofthe conversation here, I like
when I read a novel that I canrelate it to my life experience,
and sci-fi is outside of that.
(40:46):
It works with things that don'texist and for the most part I
don't like that.
But I actually just read asci-fi novel.
I think it would pass as asci-fi novel and I read it for
the second time and the reason Iread it again was that it's
actually so good.
I made all three of our stillat home children made.
(41:10):
I recommended all three of themto read it and they are all
three of them reading it now atthe same time, which is quite
fun to read the same book.
Chris Balme (41:19):
I got to hear what this is.
Cecilie Conrad (41:22):
It's by Matt Haig.
Jesper Conrad (41:24):
You know him.
He wrote the Midnight Library.
Cecilie Conrad (41:27):
It's called the Humans and it's just such a
moving story about what it is tobe human.
Chris Balme (41:36):
Wow.
Cecilie Conrad (41:38):
As it has an alien in it.
Chris Balme (41:41):
it must be a sci-fi story.
There's no spaceship, Soundslike it's sci-fi.
Cecilie Conrad (41:46):
But there is someone from a different planet
and a different, so I justwanted to put it out there.
It's a really, really, reallygood book and I keep quoting it
and I keep thinking about it andI might even read it for the
third time at some point.
Jesper Conrad (42:04):
All right, I'm going to get a copy.
I think.
Cecilie Conrad (42:06):
I'm going to put some quotes up on our very
limited wall space in the van.
It's a really good book andit's short.
You'll read it in a week.
Jesper Conrad (42:16):
Chris.
Yeah, it's a really good bookand it's short.
You'll read it in a week, chris.
Back to you and your book.
So, during the writing process,what have made the biggest
impression on you of findingthese different challenges?
Is that one of them, ormultiple?
Or in the process of talkingwith these adolescents all over
the world, what?
What stands out as a?
(42:37):
Hey, I learned something here.
Chris Balme (42:41):
I think, the best.
So we've tested it with kids onfour continents probably maybe
close to a thousand kids now andI think the thing that stands
out is just how fun it is totalk with kids about these and
their sense that you know whenthey're doing it with friends
because most of them are, if notdesigned to do with friends,
they're better with friends howfun it is to feel like you're
(43:02):
sharing the experience.
Like sometimes they'llchallenge each other.
We'll pull one we made a deckof cards out of them and we'll
pull them randomly, kind of seewhat you get.
Are you willing to try it?
So less maybe about any oneexperience, but just like the
feeling of like we're going on abunch of crazy adventures, we
don't know what we're going todo next.
We're with each other you know,today we're starting a business
(43:23):
because that's the card that wepulled, or you know, we're going
on the challenge to.
I did one with students wherethis was through the school.
They all went solo camping,which for most of them was the
first time, but we were in thesame kind of broad area and that
was so fun.
I will never forget the feelingof the next morning kind of
tending the central campfire andmiddle schoolers just kind of
(43:46):
sporadically emerging from theforest, groggy, and telling the
story of their night and whatthey had experienced.
And you know all the outrageous.
You know what they hadexperienced and all the
outrageous fears that had comeinto their minds.
So I just think havingadventures together to me that's
kind of the best part of lifeand I think for adolescents
especially that is the best partof life.
(44:08):
That's what I want this tocreate.
Jesper Conrad (44:12):
Fantastic.
I find that a really good placeto end the podcast.
So if you can share to peoplewhere they can read more about
you and your books and also,again, the title of the book so
they can go out and find it.
Chris Balme (44:26):
Thank you.
So my name is Chris Baum.
You can find me at chrisbaumB-A-L-M-E dot com and this book
is called Challenge, called,challenge accepted, and it's in
all the places Amazon, hopefullyyour local bookstore, or they
can order it for you.
I hope people enjoy it andthank you so much for having me.
Cecilie Conrad (44:42):
It was fun and congratulations on the launch.
It's today.
Having a little glass ofchampagne or coffee first and
champagne after.
Well, it's later in the day.
Jesper Conrad (44:55):
Yeah, fun with that and thanks a lot.
Today we're together with Chris Balme, and
first of all, Chris, a warmwelcome.
Thank you for taking the time.
Chris Balme (00:06):
Thank you.
Thank you for pronouncing mylast name correctly on the first
try.
Cecilie Conrad (00:10):
Yes, even on the try, try yeah.
Jesper Conrad (00:15):
So, chris, the reason we are talking today is I
got an email from Blake Boles,who we have had as a guest on
our podcast, because he haswritten a book with the
fantastic title why Are youStill Sending your Kids to
School, or Children, I can'tremember it correctly and he
wrote me an email and said hey,you know what?
I think you guys would enjoytalking with Chris, so why don't
(00:38):
you invite him?
And he also has a book comingout.
So here we are.
That's more or less what I know, chris.
Chris Balme (00:46):
So here we are all right, we're starting pred.
Blake is amazing yeah, that'sthe title of your book well this
book is a conversation exactly,yeah, blake, and I have this
debate all the time as, uh, youknow, I'm still.
I have one foot in the system.
He has all, all body partslimbs outside of the system, and
(01:06):
we were trying to find ways tobring some of these ideas of
more self-directed learning forthose folks who are still in the
system or not.
And this new book which comesout today it's so exciting to
talk with you both on launch dayis all about helping middle
schoolers go on adventures sothat they can figure out how
awesome they are and change thestory of middle school, which
has got to be one of the saddeststories of any part of the
(01:29):
education system why?
Cecilie Conrad (01:31):
I was also wondering can you expand that,
because I find the whole thingvery sad yeah, yeah, I agree
with you define middle schoolfirst for those who are not
american that would be includingmyself.
Chris Balme (01:46):
Yeah, so in the states.
Well, a curious signal abouthow confused this time is is
that it doesn't have a cleardefinition, but the most common
is grades 6 through 8, ages 11through 14 in the us.
Okay, it's by year, give ortake here and there, and I think
most people, at least in the usand at least some other
countries I've been to, wouldsay this is the worst part of at
(02:06):
least the K through 12 system.
And the amazing thing to me ishow we replicate this story and
tell kids like oh, this is goingto be rough, this is going to
be awkward.
I hope you get through it asquickly as you can.
Cecilie Conrad (02:18):
And to me that is such a signal it's not going
to be quick.
Yeah, it's not quick.
That's like very logical tobegin with.
Chris Balme (02:25):
Yeah, and I mean, from the brain science
perspective, it's one of themost fruitful times of growth of
our whole lives.
Actually, your brain nevergrows faster than it will after
that, so we can do so muchbetter, and that's basically.
My whole work has been tryingto design better experiences for
middle schoolers in particular,in schools, out of schools and
(02:47):
now, through this book, gettingthem out into the world.
Jesper Conrad (02:56):
What made you write?
Chris Balme (02:56):
a book Because that's quite a big task to jump
into.
Personally, I can't not write.
It's just something that mybrain does to make sense of the
world.
I've been writing ridiculousnumbers of journals since I was
nine years old, but this bookcame around 12 years ago.
I was starting a laboratorymiddle school, kind of an
(03:19):
experimental school that wouldbe much more student-centered,
much more getting them out inthe world, and we were trying to
figure out how do we?
We need some kind of aframework so that we don't just
default back to the oldtraditional ways and the old
traditional curriculum.
So our thought experiment wascould we create a framework of
curriculum that was onlyexperiences?
So you couldn't define anything.
You know that was, you knowEnglish unit three, but just
(03:39):
only experiences.
And we interviewed people frommiddle school age through late
in life and asked them what doyou remember the most positively
about the middle school years?
And, of course, after peoplegot done sharing their traumatic
side, many of them had a lot ofthem said it was things like
you know, I started a business,I got my first job, I went
(03:59):
camping by myself, all of thesethings.
And so we just compiled thislist and in the last 12 years
we've been testing it with kidsall over the world in school,
out of school, homeschool, allkinds of things, and so this
book is the 50 things that wethink really work for middle
schoolers to go get out there.
Jesper Conrad (04:18):
Yeah, what is number 35?
Just to be curious, let's seehow good you can.
I have a copy here.
Okay, number 35.
Let to be curious, let's seehow good you can be.
I have a copy here.
Chris Balme (04:27):
Okay, number 35.
Let's start there.
Number 35 is, oh, it's calledTrain your Brain and it's about
different kinds of meditation,but trying to not do it kind of
the way that has been forced ona lot of kids.
So, if you know, sit down, bequiet, kind of the compliance
side of meditation.
That can be the dark side of itand rather have them feel like
(04:48):
it's just tuning in.
To use the old hippie word,it's tuning into what you're
noticing.
Favorite way to teach itamazing teacher at our school
was you know, kids would walk inin the morning when they were
doing this and there would belike a single strawberry in
front of each kid and thechallenge was just eat the
strawberry as slowly as youpossibly can and that's your
(05:10):
meditation, just noticing thingslike that and it's that really
on the curriculum nowadays,because my one of my hardships
with the public school system isthat when I hear about it, we
don't have our kids in it.
Jesper Conrad (05:22):
But when I hear about it, we don't have our kids
in it.
But when I hear about it, ithas become so controlled what
people need to learn on, onwhich time, et cetera that I can
almost be afraid that there'sno room for what you wanted with
your book.
Chris Balme (05:40):
I agree.
I mean.
That's why I think most of thisbook is about things that can
happen outside of school hours,where kids take more agency and
I think you're fans of PeterGray's work as well and that's
been a big influence and he waskind enough to write a blurb
that's on the cover of the bookabout.
Basically, this is a way tokeep your spark, keep your
curiosity during years, whenotherwise school can shut it
(06:02):
down.
I think middle schoolers maybeof any age group are really
babied and underestimated, kindof treated as younger, less
capable people than they are,and if they start to believe
that story, that's really theworst outcome of all.
So this is about things thatthey can do, where they realize
that they're powerful and thatyou know, for most of human
history these were people whowere out there doing things in
(06:25):
the world for other people andfeeling more and more valuable
as a result.
I think we've lost that alittle bit in school, so this is
meant to jailbreak them alittle bit.
Cecilie Conrad (06:36):
It's meant to inspire things to do outside of
school.
Chris Balme (06:40):
That's right.
Yeah, yeah, I can share more ofthe some of the challenges.
If you want.
Cecilie Conrad (06:49):
I have a thousand questions yeah, please
fire away I don't know where tostart because I have a really
big problem with the wordcurriculum and you mentioned
that.
But maybe we should skip that,then I also.
I I feel like I just have tounload my whole chaotic brain
right now yeah also I'm thinkingabout.
(07:09):
What is the trauma, the middleschool trauma?
yeah and can we reverse it bydoing something fun for the rest
of the time?
So if we are complying to theschool system and we're giving
up 30, 40, 50 hours a week tothat, can we fix all that trauma
(07:35):
by doing something fun on theweekends?
Maybe we can.
I'm not saying we can't.
I think you're trying to solvethe same problem as we're
usually talking about solving,by not doing school.
So I'm just curious.
Chris Balme (07:51):
It's on my mind too .
Cecilie Conrad (07:52):
Are we just putting a patch on the problem
by having fun on the weekends,or can we actually solve it?
And if we solve it, I wouldguess my guess would be that
school makes even less sense forthe kids once they start
getting agency and having somereal experiences in life.
Chris Balme (08:14):
I think you're right, you know it's.
I guess the way I think aboutmiddle school is first and
foremost developmentally.
And does school let kids dotheir developmental work or not?
And does school let kids dotheir developmental work or not?
And I think, unfortunately,traditional school directly
blocks a lot of thedevelopmental work that middle
schoolers need to do and that'swhy I think we see it as a rough
(08:34):
and traumatic age more thananything else, because we're
getting in their way.
For example, it's the mostsocially motivated time probably
in the whole human lifespan.
All your radar to read thesocial world has turned on.
You're flooded with newinformation you never noticed
before and all you want to do isfigure out how to make sense of
(08:55):
that.
If school says you know talkingwith your friend is cheating or
is disruptive will be punished,then you're fighting.
You know the strongest socialdrive ever and everyone's
frustrated.
But I do think for kids wherethere isn't an option, there's
no way to get out of the schoolsystem, that having other parts
(09:16):
of your life that aredevelopmentally aligned with you
, that let you do yourdevelopmental work around
identity and connection andcontribution, that's only
positive and, yes, it would bebetter if they could do that all
day, every day, but anything isbetter, maybe even creating
that gap and making even moredissonance and making the school
(09:38):
feel even less meaningful.
Cecilie Conrad (09:41):
It can hurt during the years of being
trapped in that system in caseyou are actually trapped in that
system, but having a feel ofthe other thing and knowing that
, okay, it actually does notmake any sense.
This, I just have to getthrough it because that happens
to be my circumstances.
It's probably better on thelong run, even though it's not
(10:05):
necessarily better in the moment.
Chris Balme (10:08):
I think so.
I mean, I think, yeah.
I mean, middle schoolers are sosmart and they can code, switch
, you know, they can understandthat there are different games
we play and you know differentparts of life, different rules.
So I think it's better for themto have access to a better game
, even if it makes the othergame more aggravating as a
result, and they might makedifferent choices if they have
(10:30):
more liberty in high schoolmaybe to select their path.
You know that could be informed, they could keep more of a
sense of agency versus.
One of the things that makes meso sad about traditional
education is how passive kidsbecome.
They that kind of like given upon the hope of making this
interesting for themselves orletting their curiosity lead.
So if we keep that alive, evenin the outside hours and of
(10:54):
course some schools are going tokeep it alive inside school
then you know all the betteryeah, it seems like there's a
growing number of alternativeschools and a lot of the
projects I hear about both in ukand the states.
Jesper Conrad (11:10):
I can tend to look back at denmark and being
like, oh, we only have like wedon't have that many free
schools and alternative schools,as I think there is a growing
movement worldwide that peoplewant something different for
their kids, so I think it'sgrowing one.
What are your favorite of the55 to do personally?
Chris Balme (11:33):
my personal favorite is there's one that's
called be a stealth artist, andthe challenge is to create a
work of art and then install itas if it was meant to be there
in some other place, like hangit on the wall of your favorite
cafe, for example, you know,non-destructively but just to
realize that you know art ismeant to break rules and move
(11:56):
someone else and put in your artup where it's not technically
supposed to be.
I think there's something aboutthat that speaks to the
adolescent urge to start tochange the world a bit yeah I
really like that one, yeah, yeahno, but it, it.
Cecilie Conrad (12:13):
I remember an american teenage girl we knew
she did as a prank.
I can't remember was it for.
Was it for valentine's day witha not a boyfriend, not a
romantic interest at all afriend?
They did the most awkwardcouples photos where they look
really weird and as if it wasthese posed couples photos.
(12:40):
They did a lot of them and theyframed them and then they put
them in all of their friendshouses everywhere.
They made I don't know 25 andjust put them up.
That's really funny.
That was actually that's kindof what we're proposing there
same, except it wasn't art.
(13:01):
Was it art kind of?
Yeah?
Chris Balme (13:03):
yeah, yeah, that sounds like art.
Cecilie Conrad (13:06):
It was a fun idea.
Jesper Conrad (13:07):
Yeah, and it reminds me of some of the street
art I love the most.
It's these, as you say,non-destructive, but with a
quirky smile on where they havedone something wonderful, and I
mean it just makes me smile andit makes me happy when I see
them Modifying street signs.
Modifying street signs.
Modifying street signs and it'syeah, it's super wonderful,
(13:28):
yeah yeah, yeah, exactly.
Chris Balme (13:30):
I think there's something that that's a part of
the gift that adolescents haveto offer the rest of the world
is to kind of modify our oldroutines, and if we let them,
that's how they keep us alive.
I think also yeah yeah, I don'tknow.
Cecilie Conrad (13:46):
I've been thinking recently about.
I had a really goodconversation a few weeks ago
with a transformational leaderfriend I have about about the
things we keep talking about.
We keep talking aboutunschooling my husband and I,
because we're unschoolers, and Iwill keep talking about
unschooling because I think itis one of the best strategies
(14:08):
for allowing for our offspringto make sense of the world as
they grow up.
But actually unschooling is away of solving the problem that
the school system we have andbasically the whole culture
around bringing up children it'svery outdated and in many
(14:33):
countries not so much in thecountry we come from, which
makes us a little bit offsometimes when we observe it.
But in many countries therelationship between parents and
children and between teachersand children is very, very much
not leveled.
So it's a very top-down thingwhere we are way more equal with
our children and teenagers inour society our former, where we
(14:59):
came from before we becamenomadic.
So the problem really is thatthe way we do childhood doesn't
really it doesn't exist inharmony with the reality of the
society the kids can clearly seethey will be part of when they
are 25, let's say, and we thinkunschooling is a very good way
(15:23):
of.
If we just take schooling outof that system, we take the
whole idea of curriculum out ofthat system, then it becomes way
better.
But there are other ways to doit and what you propose is one
of are other ways to do it andwhat you propose is one of these
other ways to do it.
We're trying to solve a problemand there will be several ways
to solve it.
So, even though having fun inthe weekends is not going to not
(15:47):
be painful, weekdays maybe doyou think there is a spillover
effect definitely.
Chris Balme (15:54):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's also each kid's
journey, you know, through thiscould be so different.
So you know, I have three kidsone goes to a traditional school
, one goes to an alternativeschool and one I'm unschooling.
So I'm kind of I feel like Ihave hands in all the whole
thing yeah very confusing, butthat's because of what they've
chosen and what seems to beworking for them.
(16:15):
You know there are kids thatwant the huge thing that school
has is so many other kids andthere are kids that just want
that social environment but aremaybe not being served by other
parts of it.
So yeah, I think anywhere wecan get this in around the edges
and help them.
You know, like I was sayingearlier, when they do their
(16:35):
developmental work then theymake developmental progress and
they go beyond.
That kind of belonging iseverything stage.
You know you've got to startthere, but then you can go
beyond it to figuring out how doI achieve things?
And then how do I achievesomething that's authentic to me
, where I'm bringing myself outinto the social world, knowing
their consequences.
Jesper Conrad (16:56):
If they can tinker toward that in some part
of their lives, I think itaffects how they show up in in
all parts so, chris, there is umone very obvious thing that
just came to my mind, which iswe haven't mentioned the title
of your book.
We just started talking yeah,so, so, so please tell me about
(17:24):
the title about of your book.
And also, as I said, we gotthis email from Blake, so I
actually didn't look into ifthis is your first book or if,
where are we with the whole?
Chris, tell me a little moreabout yourself, the name of your
book and your way to it.
Chris Balme (17:39):
Yeah, so this is book baby number two.
So the first one came out threeyears ago.
I thought actually this one wasgoing to be the first, but it
took longer to gestate.
So the first one came out andwas called Finding the Magic in
Middle School, and that's reallyto help adults make sense of
middle school and understanddevelopmentally whether you're
in school or out of school justwhat are kids driven to do at
(18:00):
that age, so that we can helpthem and not accidentally battle
them, which so often happens.
But the whole time I was writingthat book I was thinking I
really want to write directly tokids and so that's what this
book is.
So it's called ChallengeAccepted subtitle 50 Adventures
to Make Middle School Awesome,and it's written completely for
kids.
(18:20):
Everything in there has beentested by lots of different
middle schoolers all over theworld and it's basically you
know after a short intro.
Just it's a choose your ownadventure kind of style 50 short
chapters.
Each one gives you kind of awhy this might be cool.
You know, feel free to crossthis out if it's not cool to you
, but if it speaks to you,here's why it might be cool and
(18:40):
then, like a very practical,here's how to do it.
And that's it.
That's the complete book nice 11to 15 was the age yeah, yeah,
11 to 14 in the US.
Jesper Conrad (19:01):
I would accept the sneaky art.
Yeah, I would accept that one.
I like that idea.
Chris Balme (19:08):
I think one of the most fun ways to use it, if
you're going to bring it into afamily setting, is to have the
kids give the parents thechallenges and then, in the
course of choosing one for theirparents, they may notice some
that they're intrigued by aswell yeah, so how is the plan to
get the book used?
Jesper Conrad (19:27):
is it through the school, through the teachers,
or is it to the parents thatgive it to their child?
What is, what is your plan withit?
Chris Balme (19:34):
Yeah, my dream with it is that kids discover it by
accident.
I think that's the ideal way,you know.
So I had a Kickstarter campaignto help produce it and everyone
who supported it.
I'm sending them extra copiesand asking them to leave them in
random places where a middleschooler might walk by.
So I think that would be mydream.
(19:55):
They just see it like what isthis strange colorful book and
flip through it.
Second to that would be thatsome adult who's just really
cool and intriguing to them youknow, their cool aunt or someone
like that just passes it tothem.
Check this out, no questionsasked, kind of thing.
And then, of course, parentsand teachers are very welcome to
(20:17):
give it as well, but sometimesthat comes with more
complications or expectationsbut that has to do with that
ruined relationship I talkedabout before yeah I mean some
parents, some children actuallydo trust their parents to come
up with good ideas, even in themiddle school age.
Cecilie Conrad (20:40):
I mean a lot of relations are good and we could
also build on that and maybe itwould be even good for a
struggling relationship betweena middle school child and the
parents that parents read thebook first came up with.
Hey, we could do all these funthings instead of doing chores
(21:02):
and math and whateverextracurricular adult composed
time kind of way we spend thetime that we have, the precious
time we have together we're inthe situation right now that one
of our kids have just left usjust for a month for a month to
(21:23):
go traveling with her boyfriendand you sit back with.
I mean, we have a surplus ofchildren, so we have enough to
play with.
Jesper Conrad (21:31):
But you get that feeling.
Cecilie Conrad (21:35):
They are really precious, the hours we have with
the children.
So even the slightest little,I'll force you to empty the
dishwasher.
Why would I?
Why would I sacrifice theconversation we could have had
or the fun we could have had orthe music we could have heard,
or whatever, in order to do somesort of top-down, trying to
(22:02):
think that I can teach you howto be a good person?
I think we've learned a lotabout how to handle life and how
to be a good person, how tohave fun and how to live in
accordance with your values, andall these things from our
children, exactly when they'vebeen in these years between 11
and 14.
Jesper Conrad (22:19):
Damn, they're wise, they really are yeah, we
see the with our youngest.
Sometimes then like I findmyself talking to him like he's
a young one and then sometimeswhen, when he talks, I'm just
like blown back.
I'm like oh yeah, you're 13.
And oh man, you have so much onyour mind.
(22:41):
Sorry, because he's my littleone.
Cecilie Conrad (22:44):
Yeah, we kind of forget, because he's our fourth
child and he's 13 years youngerthan the oldest.
I want him to be little.
Jesper Conrad (22:52):
Yeah, just some years.
I remember how it was when Iwas young myself and all the
thoughts I have when I was inthis age group and you don't
feel respected by adults often.
Cecilie Conrad (23:07):
Because you are not respected.
Yeah, it's an accurate sensethis is because you can see
right through things.
Chris Balme (23:14):
Yeah, I agree.
I think that's you know.
So many parents, traditional ornon-traditional, are so shaken
up by this age because theydon't see that the speed of
change is shocking chances toreset your relationship because
(23:35):
you're going to be unless you'rereally aware of this, you're
going to be kind of shocked andhave to constantly update your
model of who your child is.
Maybe it's the chance to breakout of the old kind of boss you
know, adult control mode, and bemore of a companion.
Cecilie Conrad (23:49):
Yeah, the sooner you do that, the the better.
Chris Balme (23:51):
Exactly.
Cecilie Conrad (23:52):
Yeah.
Chris Balme (23:54):
It's going to get rough during these years.
If you don't, they will let youknow.
Jesper Conrad (24:04):
Chris, which of the challenges are your kids
most tired of?
If you have used them astryouts, they're like Dad.
Not again, not that one.
Cecilie Conrad (24:10):
I'm not doing any more random art putting it
up.
Yeah, exactly.
Chris Balme (24:14):
That's a good question.
I have to say, my own middleschool daughter was definitely
the most ruthless editor of thisbook.
She went through it and heldnothing back.
Yeah, let's see what are they.
I'm just flipping through ithere.
The one that she wants to donext is kind of a classic one.
(24:34):
It's to create a time capsuleand kind of take some memories
from this age with her bestfriend and bury them in the
backyard, which I think will befun.
So that's next on her plate.
Let's see.
My own child rolled her eyes atthe challenge that is called
find awe in nature.
It's like yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.
But I do know other kids whoreally enjoyed that one.
So you know, that's the chooseyour own adventure style of it.
Jesper Conrad (24:56):
I have done some time capsules, mostly for fun.
One was when we rebuilt thekitchen and then I put in a note
underneath where I just saidwhy did you break down the
kitchen?
It's just me having fun with it.
Cecilie Conrad (25:11):
You also put something under a floor once.
Yeah, I also put somethingunder a floor once, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (25:14):
I also put something under a floor.
One of the floorboards wasbroken and needed to be changed
before we moved out of anapartment, and I slid in a note,
and I think that is 20 yearsago maybe, and it still hasn't.
I have never heard from them.
Do you know, though?
Cecilie Conrad (25:29):
No, we had some very good parties in that
apartment, yeah, wow.
Chris Balme (25:35):
That, no, I we had some very good parties in that
apartment.
So yeah, wow, that's a greatinspiration.
This is the adult version,maybe a challenge accepted.
Cecilie Conrad (25:39):
Well, we did it with the kids.
I think maybe also just ourmindset is I'd like to read that
book, I mean yeah, we do thesekinds of things with our
children.
That's the only thing when youlet the child find it and
randomly do these things.
A lot of things we do projectstyle.
We like to do them together.
(26:02):
We like to find projects likethis Could be go for a walk, it
could be do an art project,Could be whatever kind of time
capsule.
Right now we're doing handdolls to make theater.
We usually try to findsomething where at least three
we're a family of a lot ofpeople.
(26:22):
We're accumulating as ourchildren have romantic
relationships now.
So we have four children and twosons-in-laws now.
So we're usually a lot ofpeople, at least three of us
before we start a project,because we realized that, as you
said, the social part of it,and I think, yes, it's huge in
(26:44):
middle school years, but it'shuge in life, really social life
.
I want to be social.
I don't want to miss out onspending time with people I love
, yeah.
So we make these kinds ofprojects and we usually, at
least if three people areinterested, we'll start a
project.
It's very rarely we do thingson our own.
Chris Balme (27:05):
Yeah, I love that.
I mean that.
Just it speaks to how wellyou've maintained those
relationships and not falleninto the usual trap of feeling
more and more distant as theyget older.
Jesper Conrad (27:16):
Yeah, chris, I'm still curious on you.
You're from California and Ihaven't heard enough about you.
Which career did you end up in?
As you're writing about middleschool, I presume you ended in a
teacher role, and how did thathappen?
Chris Balme (27:34):
Very accidentally.
I mean, I was a reallyfrustrated and unhappy middle
schooler and high schoolermyself.
I went to very traditionalschools and I remember walking
out of the high school buildingthinking I will never set foot
in a school for the rest of mylife.
And of course that was achallenge to the universe that
requires more sense of humorthan I had in that moment.
(27:54):
And you know that was achallenge to the universe that
requires more sense of humorthan I had in that moment.
And you know, lo and behold,four years later I became a
teacher and I had a long, youknow windy road in those four
years.
Cecilie Conrad (28:04):
That was a short never.
Chris Balme (28:06):
Yeah, it's a short, very short.
Never, but I think I didn'tknow it then.
But I feel now like I was kindof called to that because I had
some healing to do.
There was something there thatwas kind of unfinished business
for me to think about.
You know, why did it have to beso bad?
Or did it have to be so bad?
And I feel pretty strongly itdid not, and there are ways to
(28:27):
make kids' adventures much moreadventurous and not kind of
being dragged through.
So to make a long story short,I've always kind of worked, I
guess, on the fringes of theschool system, you could say.
So first thing I did for 10years I ran an apprenticeship
program.
The idea was to let middleschoolers go do awesome
apprenticeships in any possiblekind of job and just connect
(28:50):
with the world and see thatthere's so much out there people
willing to bring them along.
We had kids like learning andwhat's your role, then?
Jesper Conrad (28:57):
to find the places.
Yeah, exactly what is the mostawesome you found.
Did one of them have anapprenticeship as an astronaut,
or something I wish Still?
Chris Balme (29:07):
waiting for that.
But yeah, I mean the very firstyear we started that program,
one of the first kids we gotsaid you know, we asked for
three choices and he said thesame thing for all three.
He said pilot want to fly aplane?
And I was like, oh great, howare we possibly going to make
this happen?
And I remember talking to myco-founder and we said you know,
(29:27):
we're going to make one phonecall and if it doesn't work,
we're going to tell him you'vegot to give us some other
options.
We make one phone call to alocal small airport flight
school.
Get this wonderful guy namedDave explain our situation.
We've got a 12 year old.
This is all he wants to do.
And he said yes, on the spot.
Jesper Conrad (29:42):
So I'll teach him how to fly.
Chris Balme (29:46):
Okay, well, that was a.
That was a lesson for me that Ihad underestimated how willing
people are to respond to areally motivated kid, and I mean
I remember crying on the sideof the runway while this kid
took off in a small Cessna plane, you know, at the controls.
So it's possible, and over 10years we had 17,000
(30:07):
apprenticeships that we createdso many Almost every job you can
imagine, including some thatseem like they might be too
dangerous to do Kids wereinvolved in, and I just think
it's to me it's one of the mostbasic ways that we can welcome
kids into the world and educate,but it's not commonly done.
Jesper Conrad (30:25):
Yeah, I think it's one of the best ways to
learn.
I love learning from people.
Chris Balme (30:30):
Exactly that's what we're wired for, I think.
So I did that for a long timeand then I wanted to start a
school.
So I felt like this is aprogram that gets to plug into
schools, but could we redesignthe whole school and make it
something much more kid focused,much more developmentally
aligned, and it's in that kindof sometimes awkward place where
(30:53):
it's still a school and there'sstill curriculum that word but
it also is, I think, a much morekid-focused place.
Jesper Conrad (31:03):
They have much more agency and you call it a
lab school?
Chris Balme (31:06):
Yeah, we call it a lab school Basically to try to
give ourselves permission, andwe're working with some
universities here on the WestCoast who wanted to put some of
their research into action.
We thought if we call it thatthen maybe people will know that
we're doing experiments andtake it less seriously in a
sense, or give permission thatwe can try something different
(31:27):
and some of them will not workand that's part of it.
Jesper Conrad (31:31):
It's one of the things I praise my school time
for is that the teachers we had.
There were three teachers thatwent together and were inspired
by a local alternative schooland we became an experimental
class in the public schoolsystem and it was only one or
(31:57):
two weeks a year for three years, but it meant so much to me
that we went out and allsubjects we had were centered
around one thing, for example,an excursion to a local stream,
and then math, history, etcetera, et cetera, et cetera
dived into that one, and I thinkit has helped form my holistic
mindset of trying to understandthings, that I, when I go into a
(32:18):
thing, I try to get thewholeness of it.
So I think making theselab-like schools will help many,
because I personally wouldprobably, if I went to school
today, have a whole alphabet.
Cecilie Conrad (32:32):
You'd get all the letters yeah.
Jesper Conrad (32:34):
I would get all the letters that you could give
someone, but I survived onhaving a big motivation and a
big dreamy heart and mind andthen I dove into some things.
That was really fun.
Chris Balme (32:47):
I love that.
I love that.
Yeah, that's essentially howthe school that I helped to
start works.
It's all interdisciplinaryprojects and then adventures out
in the world, you know, innature, in the city.
Cecilie Conrad (32:59):
That's the school our only school child
have been in as well.
It was just based on what thekids want to do and on projects.
Jesper Conrad (33:07):
Oh yes, and even though I had a very I praise my
school for having had that.
I praise my school for havinghad that.
I remember as a parent I wasafraid when I heard about what
Cecilia planned for our daughterto go to this alternative free
school and I am the one of meand Cecilia who haven't went to
(33:28):
university.
I made projects, I made a filmby going to high school and then
when people have a gap year, Itook six gap years and stuff
like that.
But at the same time and Imentioned it because it's just
fun how stuff can flick in ourmind like that I saw myself as a
(33:53):
rebel who did what I wanted to.
But when my own oldest daughtershould start the school, I was
like, ooh, a free school, that'sooh.
I don't like that.
Can we get normal here?
Which was what I thought for somany years.
I don't know how it happens, yetI think normal creeps up on us.
Cecilie Conrad (34:17):
It does and we hear these voices.
It has a lot of momentum.
Chris Balme (34:21):
We're social-queued creatures and we just get
unconsciously tugged back tothat as a safe place.
But it's not that safe actually, if you think about what can be
lost there.
Cecilie Conrad (34:34):
Yeah, that's the thing.
All the things they don't dowhile they're trapped in that
system is quite scary, and allthe skills that are not
developed.
Jesper Conrad (34:45):
I'm curious about the connection from Blake.
How have you two met and whatis the connection?
Is it the learning or are youjust knowing each other from old
times?
Chris Balme (34:59):
Yeah, we were connected by a kind of radical
teacher who's one of thesepeople also, who's straddling
these worlds of school andunschool, and I think at first
it was around my first book, oreven a little before that came
out.
We started talking about beingwriters and getting these
messages out.
I also I started when thepandemic started, kind of like
(35:20):
an advisory program for middleschoolers from all over the
world that could just connectonline and more or less make
sense of what it's like to be anadolescent and have spaces for
really honest, braveconversations about that, and
Blake was thinking of doing somesimilar things.
We've shared a lot of ideasaround that, but it's become a
(35:41):
wonderful friendship.
We just spent a couple daystogether cooking up all kinds of
crazy ideas and reading eachother's writing.
It's so helpful Back to theimportance of being accompanied
on your adventure to have goodcompany, people who are wanting
to walk the same trail.
Jesper Conrad (35:58):
So being a writer , then I guess this isn't your
last book.
Are you already working onsomething new?
Chris Balme (36:08):
yeah you, you know me too well already.
Yes, I've got probably aboutfive something news in my mind.
The project that I promisedmyself I'm going to do next
after this book launches, is anovel.
It's uh.
Personally, I'm starting tofeel like the.
The freest space I can imagineto think through ideas I want to
think through is fiction, andwhich genre?
Jesper Conrad (36:31):
of fiction.
Are you in, then?
Which genre?
Chris Balme (36:34):
genre?
I think it'll be.
You know, I'm really takinginspiration for this project
from Ursula Le Guin.
I don't know if you know herwork Amazing American Sci-Fi, so
I think it'll have sciencefiction aspects to it.
She writes really beautifullyabout how, you know, she
contemplated kind of being aphilosopher but felt like you
know, no one's going to readthis, no one's going to connect
(36:55):
with this.
But if I write through story, Ican weave my philosophy in in a
way that might, you know,really come to life in other
people.
So that's my hope with it.
Jesper Conrad (37:06):
Yeah, I love that .
I actually just had a longdialogue with our oldest son,
soam, about science fiction,because he asked me so, dan, why
is science fiction yourfavorite genre?
And I thought about it and theanswer that came to me was
actually it's not because I likespaceships I actually don't
care about spaceships oranything of all this.
(37:28):
It is because I see it asthought experiments of what if
this happened and continued.
A lot of them is a satiricalview on something, a strain in
society.
And then, if you enlarge thatduring 200 and 300 years, I
actually find science fiction assome of the most critical of
(37:51):
our current society, where theyare just taking one thing and
then they're enlarging it.
And, as I said, spaceshipdoesn't do a lot for me, but
often that is the setting,because it's kind of easier to
accept than a parallel world.
It's easier to see it someyears in the future.
So I personally love that aboutscience fiction.
Chris Balme (38:12):
I'm the same way and I love spaceships, so I
really it has everything I couldever possibly want.
Jesper Conrad (38:17):
I have to recommend a book.
Chris Balme (38:19):
So the Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guin is one of my
favorite books of all time.
And it's exactly that.
She takes these two societiesand just follows them for
hundreds of years One morecapitalist, one more socialist,
communist.
And it's not a simple story.
It's not like, oh, one of themturns into a utopia.
It's two complicated societieswith people interacting, and I
(38:42):
love it.
It just makes me feel so aliveto read.
Jesper Conrad (38:45):
I will read that as my next one and if I must
give a recommendation back then,there's an Italian author who
actually made me want to learnItalian on a level where I could
read some of his books thathasn't been translated into
English.
He's called Stefano Beni and inone of his books there's just
(39:07):
this idea that made me laugh allthe time.
It is I think it's the onecalled Baol, but the idea and I
love it is that every day atmidnight there's a new subject
that you are allowed to talkabout and you're not allowed to
talk about anything else forthat day, and then it changes at
(39:27):
12.
And I just it's such a goodkicking the nuts on society
where people they just have thislike what's in the news talk
about that for the whole daywith their colleagues and then
the next day a new story in thenews, and I just love it that it
is by law I love that idea,coming back to adolescence, of
doing social experiments, likeone of the most fun projects we
(39:50):
did at the school I started was,you know a couple weeks where
students basically were.
Chris Balme (39:54):
they had permission to do experiments on each other
and social experiments and theywere trying to learn a good
experimental design and controls.
But you know, you'd walk downthe hall and all of a sudden
someone would rush up with youknow, ask you a question, give
you a donut and then ask youanother question right after
someone was experimenting on you, not with anything in the donut
(40:15):
, but with you know how thingssomething like that would make
you feel or change your mood.
I think that's such a fun,playful thing to do with kids,
yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (40:23):
Can I contribute to the sci-fi conversation
Please, because I actuallyofficially don't like sci-fi?
Okay.
I feel a little kicked out ofthe conversation here.
I feel a little kicked out ofthe conversation here, I like
when I read a novel that I canrelate it to my life experience,
and sci-fi is outside of that.
(40:46):
It works with things that don'texist and for the most part I
don't like that.
But I actually just read asci-fi novel.
I think it would pass as asci-fi novel and I read it for
the second time and the reason Iread it again was that it's
actually so good.
I made all three of our stillat home children made.
(41:10):
I recommended all three of themto read it and they are all
three of them reading it now atthe same time, which is quite
fun to read the same book.
Chris Balme (41:19):
I got to hear what this is.
Cecilie Conrad (41:22):
It's by Matt Haig.
Jesper Conrad (41:24):
You know him.
He wrote the Midnight Library.
Cecilie Conrad (41:27):
It's called the Humans and it's just such a
moving story about what it is tobe human.
Chris Balme (41:36):
Wow.
Cecilie Conrad (41:38):
As it has an alien in it.
Chris Balme (41:41):
it must be a sci-fi story.
There's no spaceship, Soundslike it's sci-fi.
Cecilie Conrad (41:46):
But there is someone from a different planet
and a different, so I justwanted to put it out there.
It's a really, really, reallygood book and I keep quoting it
and I keep thinking about it andI might even read it for the
third time at some point.
Jesper Conrad (42:04):
All right, I'm going to get a copy.
I think.
Cecilie Conrad (42:06):
I'm going to put some quotes up on our very
limited wall space in the van.
It's a really good book andit's short.
You'll read it in a week.
Jesper Conrad (42:16):
Chris.
Yeah, it's a really good bookand it's short.
You'll read it in a week, chris.
Back to you and your book.
So, during the writing process,what have made the biggest
impression on you of findingthese different challenges?
Is that one of them, ormultiple?
Or in the process of talkingwith these adolescents all over
the world, what?
What stands out as a?
(42:37):
Hey, I learned something here.
Chris Balme (42:41):
I think, the best.
So we've tested it with kids onfour continents probably maybe
close to a thousand kids now andI think the thing that stands
out is just how fun it is totalk with kids about these and
their sense that you know whenthey're doing it with friends
because most of them are, if notdesigned to do with friends,
they're better with friends howfun it is to feel like you're
(43:02):
sharing the experience.
Like sometimes they'llchallenge each other.
We'll pull one we made a deckof cards out of them and we'll
pull them randomly, kind of seewhat you get.
Are you willing to try it?
So less maybe about any oneexperience, but just like the
feeling of like we're going on abunch of crazy adventures, we
don't know what we're going todo next.
We're with each other you know,today we're starting a business
(43:23):
because that's the card that wepulled, or you know, we're going
on the challenge to.
I did one with students wherethis was through the school.
They all went solo camping,which for most of them was the
first time, but we were in thesame kind of broad area and that
was so fun.
I will never forget the feelingof the next morning kind of
tending the central campfire andmiddle schoolers just kind of
(43:46):
sporadically emerging from theforest, groggy, and telling the
story of their night and whatthey had experienced.
And you know all the outrageous.
You know what they hadexperienced and all the
outrageous fears that had comeinto their minds.
So I just think havingadventures together to me that's
kind of the best part of lifeand I think for adolescents
especially that is the best partof life.
(44:08):
That's what I want this tocreate.
Jesper Conrad (44:12):
Fantastic.
I find that a really good placeto end the podcast.
So if you can share to peoplewhere they can read more about
you and your books and also,again, the title of the book so
they can go out and find it.
Chris Balme (44:26):
Thank you.
So my name is Chris Baum.
You can find me at chrisbaumB-A-L-M-E dot com and this book
is called Challenge, called,challenge accepted, and it's in
all the places Amazon, hopefullyyour local bookstore, or they
can order it for you.
I hope people enjoy it andthank you so much for having me.
Cecilie Conrad (44:42):
It was fun and congratulations on the launch.
It's today.
Having a little glass ofchampagne or coffee first and
champagne after.
Well, it's later in the day.
Jesper Conrad (44:55):
Yeah, fun with that and thanks a lot.
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