Jamie Rumble | Nomadic Becoming in the Anthropocene - Self Directed

Episode Transcript
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Jesper Conrad (00:00):
Today we're together with Jamie Rumble.
This is our third timetogether.
And if you haven't heard thetwo first episodes, I really
think you should go listen tothem.
I will add the links in theshow notes.
And one of the things we wouldtalk about today is that Jamie
has done this wonderful project,and we want to hear a little

(00:21):
about what you've learned alongthe way and everything that you
have gotten to know and stufflike that.
But first of all, a late butgood welcome to the show, Tim.

Jamie Rumble (00:33):
Thank you.
Yeah, so I guess the first twopodcasts we did, I was more
interviewing you.
I'm hoping that maybe you caninterview me.
That might be helpful to kindof joggle my brain a bit to
unpack my learning through allthis.
And I'm still learning, I'mstill reading.

(00:54):
It's been extremelyfascinating.
So I guess maybe I'll give youthe a little bit of a timeline.
So in 1999, I went to Japan inthe midst of a personal crisis.
I was getting a divorce.
I was at the time I was workingin the film industry in
Toronto, working crazy hours,very unhealthy lifestyle.

(01:18):
And in the midst of thatpersonal crisis moment, I
remembered a friend of mine inuniversity who he had gone to
Japan one of the summers to workand teach English.
And he came back and said, Youshould go to Japan.
You would love Japan.
So in 1999, I suddenly foundmyself to be basically no

(01:40):
strings attached.
And I thought, okay, I'll go.
And during my time there, Istarted a master's degree with
Endicut College in the States.
And that was on integratedlearning.
And it was a really fascinatingprogram.
And I actually almost finishedit.
I didn't finish it.
I had to leave for personalreasons again.

(02:02):
And that's kind of been a themethroughout my life.
I've struggled throughout mylife with mental health issues.
So I had to stop.
And then about, I don't know,more than a decade after that, I
tried again and then had tostop for physical reasons.
I had a gallbladder attack andwas hospitalized for 10 days.

(02:24):
And then I tried again withCape Brighton University here in
Nova Scotia, where I am.
And their program, Masters ofEducation program, is focused on
sustainability, creativity, andinnovation, which really piqued
my interest because obviously,having a background work from
the film industry, I've alwaysbeen interested in creative

(02:46):
endeavors.
When I went to Japan in 1999,it was right at the beginning of
the kind of World Wide Webboom.
Internet cafes were popping upeverywhere.
There was still no smartphones.
But my intention when I went toJapan the first time was to
travel all over Southeast Asia.
I ended up staying in Japan for17 years and came back to

(03:09):
Canada in the spring of 2017 tostart my master's with Cape
Burton University.
And I had to once again take abreak due to mental health
issues, interruptions.
And then when I was able tokind of get my life back
together, I came back to itagain.
So the theme here is I don'tgive up easily.

(03:29):
And so now here I am.
And my initial focus when Istarted way back in the early
2000s in Japan, I had through mytravels, I basically traveled
Japan from top to bottom.
And while I was doing that, Icame across in my guidebook
actually, the Yamabushi are themountain priests in Japan.

(03:52):
And they basically stand underwaterfalls.
So I was fascinated at thattime about flow states.
And I thought I really, andthis is something I probably
still will investigate later onin academic research.
But my initial thought wasfocusing on the Yamabushi
experience because they woulddo, you know, fasting, standing

(04:13):
under waterfalls, meditation,things like that.
And they would essentiallytrigger a flow state through
that.
So I thought, well, that wouldbe really cool to research, you
know, a master's of education onflow states in education, which
is now like a thing.
But when the pandemic startedin 2020, when we were all under
lockdown and things like that, Iwent online and I started

(04:37):
watching a lot of digital nomadswho were still kind of
traveling or they were, youknow, stuck wherever they were
in parts of the world.
And I thought this isfascinating because another one
of my passions is theenvironment.
I mentioned, I think, in aprevious podcast that I'd worked
for Greenpeace.
And so the climate change,climate collapse, seeing digital

(05:02):
nomads, thinking, you know,that's what I was trying to do
when I went to Japan, way backwhen I wanted to be a digital
nomad.
I still have that kind of, Inever really feel like I want to
stay in one place for forever.
So a couple of years ago, Iread this book, Nomad Century,
and it's probably backwardsright now, but Gaia Vince.

(05:22):
Nomad Century, where she talkedabout how climate migrations
will shape our world.
So I was thinking, yeah, Ithink I want to focus on digital
nomadism and as a response toclimate change, because of a lot
of the things that Gaia Vincetalks about in that book, that

(05:43):
parts of the world will beuninhabitable for some of the
year or maybe permanently due toclimate change, climate
collapse.
So with populations on themove, I took another look at the
digital nomad community,thinking, well, here's if this
is our future, if we are meantto be nomadic, and I believe

(06:07):
that we that's our naturalstate, I believe that humans are
naturally nomadic.
But if that's where we'rereturning to, then we've got,
you know, now the digital nomadcommunity is something like up
to like 30 million peopleworldwide and growing
exponentially.
And if that is a trend and ifthat is the future, then what

(06:30):
insights could digital nomadshave on nomadic living,
adaptability, things like that,transformation vis-a-vis climate
change, climate collapse forfuture generations and for
educators.
So looking at it through thatlens.
And my my focus was through thelens of echo-pedagogy, which is

(06:54):
of the lineage of criticalpedagogy from Paolo Ferrari in
Brazil in the 1960s, 70s, whichis a lot of critical thinking,
dialectical practices,reflection.
And so that's kind of whatbrought me to you.
I found you on Facebook, Ifound Takihiro on Facebook,

(07:19):
Anna, I found through DigitalNomad World website, I think.
I'd canvassed a whole bunch ofother digital nomad spaces
online, some of them reallyfunky and radical.
And that's, I guess, how I metyou guys.
And so now I'm writingeverything up and you know,
drawing some conclusions, andit's been really, really

(07:42):
fascinating.

If you look at the stories you've heard and you
said it was inspiring for you,what I also hear is that you
have a past of, as many peoplehave, having battled with some
mental issues.
Is there anything among thethings you have read, learned in

(08:03):
dialogue where you think thatit can ease the challenges?
I ask from a perspective ofbelieving that we have a culture
right now that people try tofit into, that they shouldn't
fit into.
So that is the perspective Iask from.

(08:42):
Then seeing this lifestyle,researching these people, is
there something in you that islike maybe it's not me, maybe
it's the lifestyle, or am Idoing my own judgment and put
them over you there?

No, I think that's a resounding truth that the
world that we live in, thesystems that we have created
over, let's say, give or take,the last 500 years is guilty as
charged, I would say, ofcontributing not only to the

(09:19):
demise of the planetary health,but also mental health, physical
health.
And that's, I guess, one of thebiggest realizations that I've
had through all of this.
And it's it's always been kindof a hunch of mine, and maybe
just putting it to you, but Ibelieve more than ever that the

(09:40):
health of our planet directlycorrelates to the health of our
species and all species.
And so the mental health crisisthat we're seeing now
worldwide, I think is yeah,completely related to the way
that we've been living on thisplanet.
Our planet is sick and we aresick.

(10:03):
And until we heal therelationship not only to each
other and with ourselves, towith for all of that kind of
stuff, we will continue tosuffer because we have separated
ourselves from nature, and wehave separated ourselves from uh
traditional role, which, andagain, this is one of the themes

(10:26):
that came up through throughthis research is that and and
through echo-pedagogy, is thathumans our our role was as
stewards originally, stewards ofthe land.
It wasn't ours to to dominateor control or extract from, but

(10:47):
with capitalism, we have seenthe commodification of literally
everything, anything andeverything, including time,
including life, including death.
Everything has becomecommodified.
And I think that is one of thereasons we have become so sick,

(11:07):
and one of the reasons we havemade our planet so sick, because
it is a pathological ideology,I think, ultimately.
Which I would say capitalism,yeah.
And and some people even callthis day and age.
There's a professor, I thinkhis name is Jason Moore.

(11:28):
He calls this the capitalscene.
Whereas the title of my thesisproject is called nomadic
becoming in the anthropocene.
This day and age, the age ofman or the age of humans, our
impact on the planet, this isthe age we live in.
I can't remember the Latin, butit's basically trans translates

(11:51):
to the age of fire.
So if the future is going to belike, you know, Guy Vince
mentions in this book, moreclimate collapse, more
wildfires, more unmitigateddisasters.
And I it's a contentious issueto you know point the finger at

(12:11):
capitalism.
I understand that fully.

Oh, yeah, but I also think that there's a very
simple solution.
If we raise our children withlove and respect, then I think
they will love and respect thepeople around them and the
Mother Earth around them.
I actually think that some ofthe ways the way of going is due

(12:34):
to us not treating our childrenlike they should be treated.

Yeah.
Yeah.
That was another one of thecommon themes.
Yeah.
Community was, you know,bringing it back to community
was one of the common themesthrough all the interviews that
I did.
The importance of community.

Cecilie Conrad (12:52):
Yeah, and the communities have become too big
to be communities.
I see that as one of thedriving factors of the problems
we have, that all the systemsare just too big.
And in the name of efficiency,we we make them even bigger.
Because if you do the math, itlooks like that would be better.
And but it isn't.
It works for almost everythinghealthcare and schools and big

(13:17):
factories and countries andlogistics and food production
and tax systems and everything.
We just make the systems biggerand bigger to make them more
and more efficient, which we'rethinking we're taking it away
from being a subjective questionof who knows who.
And that is more fair, and thatis more efficient, but actually

(13:38):
it's less fair.
No one knows anyone, no one'staking any real responsibility
with emotions attached.
It's only principles.
If we if we're lucky, usuallyit's not even that, it's just
covering your own ass.
And then you have these hugemachines, these huge systems
that no one really can wraptheir head around and no one

(13:58):
feels personally attached to.
I think that's a really bigproblem.
I'm probably not as welleducated as you are in this
field, but I am thinkingcapitalism.
Is that the actually the realmonster here?
Or I mean, we've seen othersystems rise and fall in the

(14:21):
same context of things beingbigger and bigger, and in the
same context of the evolution oftechnology.
I don't know if I'm using theright terms here, but you know,
we did some inventions.
We can't go back beforeelectricity.
We have and use electricitynow, all of us.

(14:43):
Um, and then you can just go onand pile up a list of maybe 150
really epic things that we cameup with.
That actually I'm not againstit.
I don't think it's devastating.
I think it's better.
I think women don't die givingbirth, and children survive the
age of two, and elderly peoplecan get help for pains for

(15:07):
arthritis, and if we get cancer,that can be solved.
At some point, we will evencrush a malaria problem.
It will happen.
And it is because of this,because of the united forces of
human brains working to figureout how everything works, how we

(15:27):
can work with it, how we cancome up with new ways of
understanding problems andsolving them.
And along those lines, we havecreated a lot of problems.
Climate problems being one ofthe more overwhelming ones, but
still, it's part of thatprocess.

(15:48):
I'm not sure.
And as I said, you know, Ihaven't put as many years of
thought into it as you have, butI'm just not sure it's the
political system or theprinciple of capitalism.
I think it's could very well bepart of that process.
It's just, I'm not trying tosay that this is the only way
things could have unfolded, andthat people who have made more

(16:14):
progress in inventing stuff arebetter than those who didn't.
But on the other hand, I haveto say that I think it's part of
the human mind, human hivemind, if you want to say that,
the history of humans, that wewill stand on each other's

(16:34):
shoulders.
At some point, we will come upwith the system for writing
things down.
So we can not only learn fromeach other, but we can learn
from those who are far away orway before us in time.
And that means that we willaccumulate more and more layers
of knowledge.
I don't have to come up withtrigonometry.
All I need to do is to sit downand learn it, which is way

(16:57):
easier than coming up with it tobegin with.
And that that holds true foreverything that we humans have
learned.
And so this this is, I thinkthis had to happen.
It had to happen because of whowe are, because of the minds we
have.
We're curious, we're smart, wehave hungry brains and we want

(17:20):
to move forward.
Not all of us, but there willalways in a group of people be
the odd 15-20% who areexperimenting, um, trying things
out, figuring things out, andthere will be this odd genius
here and there who will come upwith the steam engine or the
smartphone or you know, thingsthat are real game changers.

(17:43):
Any piece of the technology,any any human success in any
science can be used in a goodway or a bad way, or something
in between, because it'sactually usually complicated,
not just either good or bad.

Yeah.

So I can't even say that I would be against
development.
It is what it is, that we willlearn more things, we will have
more options.
I mean, the bomb came frominsights we needed to understand
cosmos.
I mean, you can invent a hammerand you can build a house or
crush someone's knee.
I mean, it's a question of howyou use it.

(18:24):
So isn't it really capitalism,or is capitalism just part of
that human nature where we havetried out a lot of different
ways of organizing our society?
And now that we have a globalworld, we have to organize also
the cooperation betweendifferent cultures, different

(18:45):
local societies have tocooperate with other societies'
cultures, and it seems likecapitalism is winning.
And I wonder in a way, and Imean it's not like I know what
I'm saying here, I'm justwondering is it because it's the

(19:07):
better option?
The trade is actually quitedemocratic and fair in and of
itself.
I'm not saying it's unfoldingin a democratic and fair way,
but in a way, we all understandthis.
We convert the value into aunit that's not attached to the

(19:27):
product, and then we convert itback, and that works for
everyone.

I I think one of the problems that has arisen
over the last many centuries andhave escalated in the last 50
years at least.

Oh, I forgot a point.
I was working on this point fora long time.
Yeah, yeah, no.
Can I just we have theevolution of knowledge and you
know, technology, and we havethe evolution of let's say,
political systems andcooperation between societies,
and you say capitalism is thedriver of destruction, and my

(20:10):
hypothesis right here is maybeit's the element of human nature
we call greed mixed into thisthat actually ruins it.
It's not about whether it'scapitalism or not, it's the
greed and it's the untrainedhuman moral, you could say.

(20:31):
We're beyond religion now, sowe're not referring back to an i
a base idea of good and badthat you would have if you were
a religious person.
You would have an idea thatthere is actually something good
and actually something bad, andwe call it heaven and hell.
We have a moral code, we haveto refer back to it, and we will

(20:52):
stand trial at some point.
If we have that, greed cannottake over.

Yeah, good versus.

But now that we don't have it, greed is in this
mix, and I think it's the greedin the capitalistic system that
is driving the destruction.

It's a really, really interesting point because
there's something about the canyou say, overall post-religious
society where the ethics andmoral from the religious areas
were inhabited in us, if you cansay that.
The point I think about is, andI tried to make a small

(21:31):
wordplay with it, but I gave up.
But in Danish it would be to,which means time.
So it's transparency,indifference, and distance.
And these are the things I'mthinks, these are the things I
believe are missing.
And I think it's that toreflect to your point, Sasia,

(21:52):
then I think it has to do withthe lack of normal morality
between people and the greedthat has grown in.
So if we take them, thetransparency.
I came to think about, we livehere in Denmark when we visit
our friends here on theirorganic farm.
Sorry, what was the threeagain?

(22:13):
Transparency and the second onewas indifference.
Indifference and distance.
Okay.
Transparency has to do aboutthe honesty.
If I roll back to living inmore local societies, if I was
dishonest towards my neighborwhen I tried to sell him
something, I would go out ofbusiness.
If I was that if I take digitalnomad and turn it back to just

(22:37):
being a nomad and I came by andI sold my stuff, then they
wouldn't buy from me the nexttime I came by if I sold them
something that was valuable.
Now the distance, so thetransparency of what I'm selling
is not there any longer.
We live on an organic farm.
If people buy some of theirproduce, then they would know

(22:58):
how it is.
But what when it's sold in ashop?
Then you have the distance tofrom the producer to the
consumer, which makes itpossible to add in the greed and
the indifference.
So I take my iPhone because Iactually, unfortunately, I am

(23:18):
kind of indifferent about howthat person in whatever society,
probably China, where it wasproduced, have his life is.
I don't think about it.
That is my morality, I shouldwork with there.
My greed, my I want an iPhoneand I like it and it's nice.

(23:39):
I mean, unfortunately,indifferent towards the person
who has produced its life.
But it's because of thedistance.
If it was produced in thishouse I'm in, if it was my kids
working under those conditions,I would act on it.
I wouldn't be satisfied.
So I think there is thiselement of the world getting so

(24:02):
big that we lack thetransparency.
I am hopeful enough that itwill happen.
I believe that we at some pointwould be able to scan our
groceries and see what productyou are buying.
And I hope I would be able toscan the groceries and see the
life of the product.

(24:22):
Right now, people are gettingknowledge about whole when you
buy eggs, those chickens are notlike farm chickens running
around clocking and having fun.
They're still buying them.
That is the indifference.
They value something else,maybe their money, maybe
something else, over the howthis life has been treated.
I think we will pass that atsome point.

(24:45):
I hope and believe it's a bumpin societal morals and ethics
that we actually at some pointwill feel we'll be able to see
how things are produced due tothe internet, etc.
I just saw a short movie, oneof these shorts about how tennis

(25:06):
balls were produced.
And I was like, oh, maybe it'snot so fun to buy three cheap
tennis balls and be like, ooh,what a scoop I made here, when
you see how that person who putthe glue on with his hands is
living.
So there's actually thetransparency is coming, and I
think it will make a societalchange.

(25:26):
That is my naive hope forhumans, because I believe in
humanity.
I can see the fear, thedangers, etc., but I think that
we are waking up.
I believe more and more peoplewill become aware of how things
are going on, which conditionthings are produced under.
If I had a neighbor coming andbuying produce from me, would I

(25:51):
spray it with poison?
Like they do on the fieldstoday if you buy unorganic food.
It's sprayed with poison.
I wouldn't sell it to aneighbor and know, because if he
would get sick by it, it wouldbe on me.
And if it wasn't my morality,then it would be in my money.
He wouldn't return and buy fromme because he got sick of

(26:12):
eating the shit I gave him.
So time, transparency, Ibelieve it's coming.
I believe all of us should workon how indifferent we are
towards other people.
And then I think the distanceis the problem that we kind of
don't care when it's over theresomewhere.

And we should so lots of interesting thoughts
from both of you, yeah, oncapitalism.
And I I agree with with most ofthem.
And I guess I think there is alot of well, I guess one of the
things that came up, Jesper,when you were talking, and
something that that's called thetriple bottom line in as a

(26:51):
proposal for a new type ofcapitalism, considering the
three Ps, and it's part of asustainability framework, so
that the three Ps would bepeople, planet, and then profit.
So that it doesn't take profitout of the equation, but the
people in the planet are nowpart of the equation.
Whereas the people on theplanet have not been part of the

(27:14):
equation by and large.
So I think most forms ofcapitalism that we've seen in
the day, and I don't want thisconversation to be too much
about capitalism.
It's just one of the thoughts,I guess.
But since we're on thattangent, I think we assume that
it's the most efficient system.
But because there is the profitmotive without consideration

(27:36):
for the people or the planet, orto a lesser degree,
consideration for the people onthe planet, I think that's
definitely one of the reasonswhy we've arrived where we have
arrived.
And some people would even saythat what we're seeing in the
states right now, and believeme, living in Canada, our
neighbors are right there.

(27:57):
It's very, very much part ofthe our daily thought, I guess.
Some people say what are youseeing?

Can I ask?
What are you seeing in yourneighbor country?

Well, I mean, looking at America right now,
some people are referring towhat's happening there as late
stage capitalism.
And it's essentially the riseof fascism, is what we're
seeing.
Unbridled capitalism.
And that's why I think somepeople refer this to this age as
the capital scene rather thanthe anthropocene.

(28:30):
But when you really kind ofunpack all of that, and it goes
back to, I think, loosely theconcept of borders and
countries, which are extremelyrelevant for digital nomads,
because we do live in a worldwhere there are nation states
and borders, and that has to benavigated with passports and

(28:53):
visas and all that.
But going even further back tothe creation of nation, states,
and borders, at least from theWestern perspective, very often
that translates to colonialism.
And I know we talked about thatpreviously through other
podcasts about echopedagogybeing of the lineage of Paolo

(29:15):
Ferrer's critical pedagogy andhow decolonization was part of
the conversation.
So if we talk aboutdecolonization, I think there is
an element of talking aboutmaybe even like decapitalization
or capitalism to a lesserdegree or a more constrained

(29:36):
version of capitalism.
Because if it's unbridled, itdoes lead to fascism.
And I think even BenitoMussolini, when he first came up
with the term fascism, hetermed it as the more accurate
term would be corporate fascism.
And so when we talk even aboutthe internet using all of these

(29:57):
amazing inventions, another termthat comes to mind.
Is something calledtechnofascism, where we have the
internet and we use it on adaily basis.
Oh, sorry, not technofascism,technofeudalism.
That we are using the internetthinking that we are free, yet

(30:19):
every keystroke, every web page,every site, you know, whatever,
every transaction is beingmonitored and our daily lives
and data is being againcommodified so that we can be
good participants in thissystem, but our participation is

(30:40):
also being modified, guided,limited, so that we perpetuate
the system and become consumersrather than producers or or
otherwise.
Our lives have been reduced tothat of a consumer, and so
everything is commodified.
So a lot of thoughts.
I do have some more on otherpoints that you made, but yeah,

(31:03):
I'll go back to you on that.

So I'm thinking lots of people talk about AI,
lots of people talk aboutcollapse, lots of people talk
about the consumer situationthat consumers is what we are
all the time, like you justsaid.
And with our lifestyle, wedon't read a lot of academic

(31:29):
stuff these years at all.
I just had a conversation withmy friend with whom we're living
this morning.
Damn, it's sad we're bothacademics, so we don't read at
all.
Anyways.
So, but one of the few books wedid read this year, actually,
all of us, I think all of theadults and some of the teen

(31:50):
adults in this household thisyear is the one called Super
Stimulated.
Did you read that one?
It's an English philosopher,but it's translated into a lot
of languages.
Super stimulated.
It's a very interesting book,very easy to read.
I it's like a page turner, likea crime novel.
You can't put it down.
Read it in two sittings, five,maybe.

(32:12):
So where am I going?
Somewhere where all of thesethings, all of these, you know,
we've talked a few times, andboth yes and I are very much
against being having like thisblack outlook on things.
We're very optimistic, verypositive, very enthusiastic.
And actually, I think all ofthese quote unquote problems,

(32:36):
super stimulated, being circlingaround this idea that that you
know we we somehow elements ofour shared culture is hacking
our instincts and just pushingus around and we can't control
it.
AI taking over, fooling us,everything, everything online,

(32:58):
being basically just there topush us around.
We don't we actually think wehave control, but we don't, all
these things.
I think actually what it'sdoing to us as humanity is we
have to rise to the challenge.
We have to cut very deep andvery close to the bone and
figure out who we are.
We frequently haveconversations with uh my sons.

(33:21):
Funny enough, the daughtersdon't talk that much about those
themes, but the sons, both ofthem, they talk about, you know,
what defines us how do we knowwe're human?
What is it about us?
And it's not to say that we'rebetter than dolphins or ants or
trees or raindrops.
It's just there's somethingspecifically human, and it's

(33:41):
very hard to grasp.
It's very hard to figure outwhat it is.
My oldest son is reading somevery interesting sci-fi novels,
circling around this theme,playing with the idea of
evolution and what if all ofthis logic, brain power, what we
call IQ, is was in antsinstead.

(34:02):
What would then have been?
So basic instincts and all theant nature plus IQ.
Would that equal human in adifferent shape?
No, something human that wecan't grasp.
And I think that, whatever itis, that specific thing needs to
come out now.
And it's it really, we reallyhave to rise to the challenge.

(34:23):
We really have to understandwho we are, and we really need
to know what's important becauseotherwise we're just being run
over by by problems we createdourselves because we are who we
are, and because we didn't knowhow far it would go, how far
greed would take us, how crazylogic would become.

(34:46):
Fascism, many elements offascism, they're very logical.
They make a lot of sense.
If you just sit down and shutoff your emotions, shut off your
humanity, and just use reasonand logic, it's not like it's
not human.
I'm not obviously not trying tocondone any fascism, but I'm

(35:09):
just saying it comes from us fora reason.
And because it's yeah, so wehave to figure out what is that
core element and how do we staytrue to that with the big life
choices we make, the way wechoose to live our lives, and
also on a micro level, with ourdaily choices.

(35:31):
What do we do?
And and how do we choose tocope with it if it's not just
easy?
And what if it is easy?
Then we also have to stop andthink, is this a little bit too
easy?
Yeah.
Um, so and I think that's avery interesting challenge.

You mentioned that book, super stimulated.
And I just wanted to comment onthat with regards to you know
the conversation we're havingabout capitalism.
A friend of mine who is adie-hard capitalist, he actually
shared with me some thoughts onthat recently, where he said,
what we are experiencing now isa form of capitalism that he

(36:12):
said is called limbiccapitalism.
Limbic capitalism is a systemthat deliberately creates
addictive, pleasure-inducingproduct products and services,
targeting the brain's limbicsystem.
So I think in a way, we havebecome captured by this system

(36:36):
because of the algorithms andall that kind of stuff.
And I know that Elon Musk hasalso talked about this.
And the the term limbiccapitalism was coined by David
Cortwright.
I'm not sure about hisbackground, but it does explain
how pharmaceuticals, food,alcohol, online platforms are
designed to foster continual useor habitual use or even

(36:59):
dependency.
So when those things are takenaway, especially we see in young
children, there is thisreaction because of the
dependency that's created.
And going back to what ElonMusk has said in the past, he
even said that, because whenwhen the online social networks

(37:20):
were first created, people werecompeting for likes.
The dopamine response, youknow, I want to get likes, and
then my brain is going to getthat kind of addictive
dopamine-seeking behavior.
But what Elon Musk said wasthat actually what increases
engagement more than likes israge.
So, and that's a very importantpoint because if you look at

(37:46):
the online space now and eventhe political atmosphere now, it
seems to be very motivated.
If you want engagement, youcreate rage.
And that drives engagement evenmore than lights.
So it's a little bit scary ifwe are monetizing and promoting

(38:09):
rage as part of the system.
But just a few thoughts onthat.
Yeah.
And we're going down a lot ofinteresting rabbit holes, so
it's very organic.
And but I do see likecommunity, as you mentioned
earlier, Jesper, about thepost-religious society.
I do agree that through myinterviews with you and Cecilia

(38:29):
and Anna and Takahiro, there wasthis component of experiencing
the more than human that wasdriving everyone.
You know, Takihiro mentioned hewas living and working in
Tokyo, and all of his friendswere trying to save money to buy

(38:50):
houses and get married and allthat kind of stuff.
And he just felt it was such anempty existence.
And so that's why he became adigital nomad because he just it
just wasn't for him.
So I do see this.
We're driven by a lot ofthings.
I think a lot of instincts, andincluding our limbic system,

(39:11):
which gets hacked.
But I do believe there is apart of us, and maybe it goes
back to my interest in the inthe Yamabushi originally, is
that there is a spiritualcomponent to life that we can't
deny, we can't escape.
And it it points to, and thisis another book that I'm reading
right now.
This is by a guy named DokariStein.

(39:34):
Whoops, there, if we can get itin focus.
Essays on the future ofschools, technology, and
society.
And one of the things that hetalks about is the work of some
of the very famous educators,Piaget among them.
And he talks about, I'm justtrying to find the graph here.

(39:57):
I hope I can find it.
But he talks about, and wetalked about this in a previous
podcast as well, on the role of,or not the role of, but just
the about consciousness.
And what he writes about isthat in human development, there
are certain steps of ourdevelopment.

(40:19):
But the the final step or oneof the higher levels or
capacities for humans is the thespiritual or the yeah, that
there's like the going to likeuniversal ethics or universal
values.
And if we don't, especiallywhen it comes to education, if

(40:43):
we don't keep that in mind, ifthat is not part of the and it
doesn't necessarily mean thatthey're in order, but I think
that's something that has kindof been taken out of life by
Mark.
Maybe it's because it's alsobeen commodified, I'm not sure.
But yeah, just a few thoughtson that, and I can't find the
exact graph that I was lookingfor where he specifically points

(41:07):
to that.
And I wonder sometimes though,we can experience the divine
individually, but does it havemeaning if we are unable to
share it?
And and so that's where itcomes back to the collective how
we make meaning and and throughstorytelling, we we the other

(41:30):
is essential.
And I think that's one of thethings that motivates a lot of
people to be nomadic is novelty,constant novelty, but also a
constant experiencing of theother.
And I think there is thisinteresting human attraction,
love-hate.
On one hand, we fear the other,but on the other hand, it's

(41:55):
what we seek.
So there's a demonization ofthe other happening a lot of the
time.
The other scares us, but whenwe experience the other, that's
when we can also learn aboutourselves.
And so I see that that's also abig component of the nomadic
lifestyle is that you'reconstantly experiencing novelty

(42:17):
and the other.

Yeah.
So yeah, a few broad thoughts onthat, but I will go a little
back.
It's to the limbic system, itis to what is life about, and I
actually think that we sometimesmake stuff too difficult.

(42:40):
We are built with a lot ofsigns, being that our body are
actually producing differenthormones for us when we do what
is good for us.
And then, yes, as you talkedabout with the limbic
capitalism, the capitalisticsystem have figured out how to

(43:04):
work on these so we will consumethose things.
But if we took ourselvesseriously enough as a person to
look at which chemicals do mybrain produce for me in which
situations, then we have arecipe for what we should do in
life in many ways.
We know it naturally and do itnaturally when we have small

(43:27):
children.
We suit them by cuddling themthat releases the, and I can
never remember the name of it.
And it's the same with thesinging together, not singing
alone, but singing togetherreleases releases it as well.
So when you are cuddling andsinging for a child, you are
naturally doing stuff that suitsthe child and releases good

(43:50):
hormones in them.
So it's not like we don't know,we actually know on a deep
fundamental level, which is wedo it by ourselves when we have
a baby in our hand.
Then there is the wholeexercise thing.
Oh my God, I remember the firsttime I took a run that was long
enough to get the release ofthe different chemicals because

(44:11):
I run as high.
Yeah, yeah, but I'm so stupidthat I make up rules for myself
and I followed them.
So for 11 years I've run.

The problem is you follow them.

Yes.
For 11 years I ran onekilometer every day.
That's the shitty kilometer.
Your body's not happy, it's notfun, and you don't get the
release, you don't get the gift.
And one day I ran three, and itwas around these 20 minutes
because I'm a slow runner.
Then I got this.
Oh, oh, my brain feels fine,man.

(44:41):
Yes.
Now I didn't run three.

Yeah.

Yeah.
All this oxygen, all theseendolphins, all these dopamine
releases.
So, what I'm trying to say isthat in many ways, we actually
have the recipe for a good lifein us.
It is community, it is singingtogether, it is using our
bodies.
If we just listen to thosevoices in ourselves, they're

(45:04):
free.
Capitalism don't have the youcan call it limbic capitalism,
but we could also take ownershipof our own system.
It is actually free to producethese chemicals inside of us,
and you feel fine.
You just need to sing togetherwith someone, find a lovely
person to cuddle with or hangout with closely, and then go

(45:26):
for a run or dance and music.
Life is not difficult.
But we are we are limitingourselves in a way where doing
these things on a daily basis isnot part of our daily routine.
When is the last time I havesung together with someone?
I don't know.
Uh Friday.
This Friday, yeah.

Actually, it's about four days ago.

Four days ago.
But what I'm trying to go to isthat there's a lot of these
things we know, but we end upliving in one family household
or two food, one familyhousehold with one person in
many of them, or two-person andone point four child, where
people are not eating togetherany longer, people are not
singing together any longer, andexercise is maybe down in some

(46:15):
stupid place where you cannotfeel your emotion because
there's a loud shitty music onthe speakers.
So, so I believe that life iseasier, and I can when I say
this, I'm like, yes, but but doyou listen to yourself?
Yes, but do you do all thosethings yourself?
No.
Would you like to do more ofthem?

(46:36):
Yes.
Okay, how?
Yeah, I don't know, but I cansee the way forward, and I think
that again, I believe peopleare waking up.
I see the the amount ofloneliness that has increased
and the whole COVID thing or thepandemic.
I believe more people want togo out in real life and connect

(46:57):
with other people, be together,sing together and and do stuff.

I I totally agree with a lot of what you're
saying, and and it's actuallyinteresting because you're
saying, like you said kind of atthe beginning, it's easy.
But one of the things, again,Takahiro, what he mentioned was
one of the reasons he kind ofquit and left Tokyo to become a

(47:22):
digital nomad.
And his intention at thebeginning was not to become a
digital nomad.
And a lot of digital nomads whoI've met and talked to, they
said, no, I don't even want tocall myself a digital nomad.
But he said that Tokyo was tooconvenient, and he felt like he
was becoming soft in a way.
And so, on one hand, you talkabout it's easy, but on the

(47:45):
other hand, I think that thereis an aspect of inconvenience or
doing what's hard that gives usa greater benefit.
And so it may seem easy interms of just describing, but to
actually do it, you know, maybeyou were doing the easy thing
by running one kilometer, but byrunning three, you did the

(48:08):
harder thing, which took morediscipline, but the benefit was
there.
And so, you know, once yourealize the benefit, it's like,
oh, I want to do this is theright way or a better way.
And and Takahiro as well, likehe mentioned that he actually
was almost seeking inconvenienceor or maybe it's more of like a

(48:28):
stoic kind of philosophical wayof living, you know, denying
yourself sometimes or takingcold showers because there's no
other option.
And then somehow that buildsyour character.
It may not necessarily be foreverybody.
Again, touching on what youmentioned, and you know, with
community doing things together,I definitely see that, and I

(48:49):
see it all the time.
I'm I'm part of a digital nomadnewsletter, and I get you know
weekly email newsletters, and Isaw again, I think just today I
got one, it was saying aboutloneliness, how that's you know
something that digital nomadsdeal with, because many
travelers are solo travelers.
But you talked about in inanother podcast about co-living

(49:11):
facilities.
I think that there is aninstinct in humans to live in
community, and that the digitalnomad space is also evolving
into the co-living, co-working,hub-like.
You know, people are areessentially sleeping in like a

(49:33):
tiny little, almost like acapsule hotel, living in these
co-living spaces, and thenthey're having a communal
kitchen, a communal workingspace.
And it reminded me of when Ilived in Japan, and sometimes I
would take the train into thecity in into Yokohama or or
Tokyo, and there'd be like thesemassive apartment blocks or

(49:56):
brand new apartments they werebuilding, condominiums, things
like that, and you'd see theadvertisements on the trains,
and they were all single unitdwellings.
And I just thought, like, wow,I look at that, you know,
massive apartment building, andevery single one of those
balconies is an individual humanbeing.

(50:18):
Oh my god.
Completely isolated from thenext person, right?
And I know that, you know,living in Japan for 17 years, I
noticed as well, it'sundeniable, they have one of the
highest suicide rates in theworld.
But I also noticed howneighbors didn't really talk

(50:39):
much to each other if you'reliving in an apartment building.
If you were living in a house,it was different.
So I do wonder about thefuture, and I think that's
another reason why digitalnomads fascinate me.
And I did ask you in a previouspodcast about the scalability
of nomadic living or nomadiclifestyles, because I do think

(51:00):
that there is a missing piecefor many of us living in this
kind of individualistic, youknow, my property is my
property.
Maybe we need to, not just forour mental health, but for other
practical reasons, move to moreof a communal way of living.

(51:22):
And I know that that kind of,you know, as soon as I say the
word community or communal,people will jump to communism or
socialism or I don't know, butthat's what I'm seeing.
And there is that evidence andthe benefits again, Cecilia, you
mentioned about capitalismbeing efficient as efficiency
being a driver.

(51:43):
But what is the metric?
Is it efficient monetarily?
Maybe yes.
Is it efficient in terms ofmaterial?
But when we talk aboutefficiency, what about the the
long view rather than theshareholder quarterly report
view?
What is the more naturalefficiency in terms of humanity

(52:08):
and the survival of our speciesand the survival of our planet?
What how does efficiency putcome into play in in those terms
if we're not using that as a asa metric purely on the best use
of resources right now?

Yeah.
Or best use of time or CeciliaAns says I have a uh short thing
on capitalism, which is I thinkso many people are
externalizing the guilt byputting it on the leaders,
fascism, whatever.
If I look back at my childhood,we didn't have mobile phones.

(52:45):
We had periods where my familycouldn't afford a car because my
dad was in and out of a job atone point.
We went on biking holidays, itwas amazing.
Wow, yeah, yeah, but it wasbecause they couldn't afford to
take the plane, you know.
Uh it was amazing.
And we had one television inthe household.

(53:06):
So the whole greed thing is howmany televisions is there or
screens are there in a normalhousehold here?
How many headsets do I have formy computer?
I have two.
How many glasses do I have?
Oh, they're so cheap, I canjust buy new ones.
I have seven pairs of readingglasses.
That is not normal.

(53:28):
That is the that's completelynormal.
Yeah, yeah, that'sunfortunately completely normal.
But it is the inner greed isthat we have gotten ourselves
used to living with more andmore commodities, and we could
just scale those down, then wewould have more leisure time,
more freedom, more money.
So when people sometimes areblaming, externalizing the

(53:50):
blame, I'm like, whoo, that'seasy.
Maybe you should go back andsing together with Michael
Jackson, and I'm starting withthe man in the mirror.

Yeah, yeah, I remember.
At the same time, and I want tosee the man in the mirror.
Yeah.

Well, I was just thinking about I cannot
remember his name, but the guywho left Tokyo because it was
too convenient that you alsotalking to that.
This was part of the reason webecame nomadic, that we thought
we have such a great life herein Copenhagen, but it's only one
version of life.
It's too easy.
And we're going to live thesame kind of comfortable,

(54:33):
amazing, interesting life forthe rest of our lives.
And if we stay much longer, atthe time we were about 40 when
we started planning this, we wemight not have the opportunity
of leaving.
It might be too hard mentally,it might be, we might, you know,
we might get anxiety attacks.
Or you know, we need to get outnow.
So I can totally recognize thisfeeling of this is too easy.

(54:59):
And I want, but it's also, butat the same time, it was I want
more.
I'm losing options if I'm notdoing this now.
That was one of the reasons wedid it.
So, yes, there's an element ofI want more of a challenge.
I want things to be morecomplicated, I want to explore
things I don't know.
I want to go out and see who Iam in a different context.

(55:23):
I want to grow stronger inadapting, and in that might be a
different way of sayingadapting, but learning new
things to understand how lifecould unfold in any context.
Um that was that was part ofthe you remember I said before
about making real choices foryour life, not just, you know,

(55:45):
am I having pasta or rice fordinner?
And you know, what kind ofhouse, what neighborhood do I
want to live in in the same cityI was born in, but more like a
strategizing energy of what kindof life do I want to have?
And I wanted a challenge onthat respect, and I wanted
adventure, and I wanted also formy children that they could

(56:08):
grow up knowing, you know, lotsof things can make sense and
lots of different ways, and youcan create yourself a happy day
on any almost any in anycontext, you know.
You you have it's yourresponsibility and you have the
power.
It's not about whether you havethe right PlayStation or the
right teens, or you have yourown group, or what people say

(56:31):
about you in school, all thesethings.
It's about showing up somewherein your life, showing up for
who you are and what you findimportant, and living
nomadically has thrown us into alot of different situations
that we have had to cope withand figure out and do it while

(56:52):
running, you know.
There's no stopping to thinkabout it.
We always talk about planningbetter.
The problem with planning isthe planning takes time, you
have to plan something before ithappens, but usually things
happen all the time.
There's no there's no planningtime, you just have to plan
while doing, which is great.
It's a part of this wholeexpansion of who we are, and

(57:15):
that's very complicated andinconvenient and chaotic and and
draining in many ways.
Um it's not easy, not easy.
We also have a saying in ourfamily: if you do what is hard,
your life becomes easy.
And this whole thing isactually a good example of that.
Also, if you do what is easy,your life becomes hard.

(57:36):
So doing this hard, complicatedthing, which is draining and
chaotic, and sometimes very muchtoo much, and there's a lot of
fear and doubt and confusionthat we have to cope with.
It's not all beaches and artmuseums, and you know, uh, but

(57:56):
our life has become easy to theextent that we're very, very
good at getting up in themorning creating a happy day for
everyone.
Very, very good at just solvingproblems.
We really do keep calm.
Sometimes we think we don't,comparatively compare well

(58:17):
compared to other people, notmuch will sh will rock our boat.
I'm not saying this to to tryto be better than I don't think
I'm better than other people.
I just have some specificexperience, and and we really do
take things quite cool becausewe've done a lot of things that
you could say were hard, noweverything has become easier.

(58:39):
Yeah.
So that's a strategy we've had.
I don't want an easy life assuch, but there are some of the
consequences of choosing theeasy option that are so hard
that I'd rather choose thecomplicated option now and get
the easy, the ease of therelease of hormones when you've

(59:01):
been running for more than 20minutes.

Yeah.
And I think that's one of thebenefits of travel and
experiencing novelty and otherand and complication,
complexity, it challenges ourbrains.
I think our brains are alsodesigned, and we kind of talked
at the very beginning of this ofthis podcast about our
evolution.
I think our brains are alsodesigned to be problem solving.

(59:28):
And so when there is a lack ofcomplex complexity or a lack of
a problem, even though we wantsomething to be easy or the goal
is to have ease, there's somany contradictions because it's
through inconvenience, throughcomplexity, that we maybe then
reach that different or newplateau in terms of development,

(59:50):
because we have therealization, and then hopefully
it leads us to that higherconsciousness, which we talked
about in the previous podcasttoo, about about.
Consciousness.
I did want to just kind ofinterject one point because I
know we only have about 10minutes left, but there was an
experiment I read about withrats.
I currently work in the mentalhealth and addiction space.

(01:00:13):
So a lot of my knowledge aboutmental health and stuff like
that is coming to play throughwhat I'm researching as well.
But there was an experimentdone with rats where they put
rats in a space and there wasfood, there was water, but in
the water, they actually putcocaine in the water.

Jesper Conrad (01:00:35):
Yeah.

Jamie Rumble (01:00:36):
You heard that one, right?
The space is very barren, andthe rats quickly became addicted
to the cocaine water.
They didn't even bother to eatanymore.
They were exhibiting all kindsof you know psychotic type
behaviors.
And then they had anothercontrol group of rats with food,
water, also cocaine water.
But their environment wasextremely stimulating and

(01:00:59):
social, and they had you knowmazes and all that kind of
stuff.
They didn't even touch thecocaine water.

Cecilie Conrad (01:01:06):
Now and then they did.

Now and then they did.
Okay.

Yeah, yeah.
That's the funny part.
Actually, just for you know,it's Friday night.
Why don't we have some fun?
But they never got addicted.
It's a very interesting storyof addiction, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think down the line of that, also, this
was my son reading this, and andhe was sharing it with me that
another interesting ratexperiment, maybe done in the
same, I can't remember, sameuniversity or same researcher.
I can't, but he told me thesetwo things in the same sitting.
So the other one was that theywere measuring the complexity of
the rat brain, or the size,maybe just by measuring the size

(01:01:43):
of it, I can't remember.
And of course, the one in thein the more rich enclosure had a
bigger brain, and the one thathad other rats to play with had
because they're social animals,they need other rats to be happy
and to also just evolve and andand grow their brains.
They had big brains, and thensomeday someone came up with the
idea of finding a rat in thewild, and that was just out of

(01:02:08):
you know, out of the scalesmarter than the other ones, and
that was just so interestinghow whatever we can come up with
in uh in an experimentalsetting will always be smaller
than the reality of being outthere in a natural light.

That's interesting, yeah.

Yeah, that was very interesting.

Yeah, it kind of brings me back to another one of
the motivators for doing thisresearch.
I'm a real history nut, andespecially also archaeology and
other cultures and things likethat.
So I remember reading aboutthis archaeological find in
Turkey, Gobekli Tepe, I thinkit's called, which they they

(01:02:51):
dated it to be like 12,000 yearsold, which completely blows our
historical timeline.
Like the pyramids are supposedto be three to whatever thousand
years old.
So I kind of got to thinking,and I'm I'm also a big fan of
Graham Hancock, actually got tosee him speak in in Tokyo.

(01:03:12):
I was thrilled about that.
I've read some of his books,even though a lot of people have
have said it's you knowpseudoscience and blah blah
blah, but you know, you've gotthese sites around the world
that predate all of these otherthings.
And when we talk aboutcivilization and capitalism and
things like that and climatecollapse, you know, if we are

(01:03:35):
looking at a cataclysmic, maybeit's in in slow motion, you
know, where our civilizationwill essentially kind of come to
an end, what kind ofcivilizations will survive?
And so, you know, thinking back12,000 years ago, that was the

(01:03:56):
the younger dryest hypothesis ofa comet or pieces of a comet
hitting, putting the the worldinto a kind of an ice age, and
so these these civilizationswere lost.
If we're moving into that kindof cataclysmic in slow motion
type event where after you know,12,000 years ago, humans had to

(01:04:20):
become nomadic.
What once again?
I'm assuming maybe there wereparallel civilizations all
along.
There were people living incity-states or you know, settled
locations with agriculture andthings like that.
But if we have to move backinto a nomadic lifestyle, what

(01:04:41):
is that going to look like?
And that was kind of one of thereasons I just got into all of
this because I was just sofascinated.
Wow, so we were here beforelike that.
We may be moving into another,you know, civilization ending
event.

Yeah, I personally think features are
longer than where they were ifyou take his theories for good.
And for example, we have theseed banks in Norway.
Uh, they will survive anycataclysmic kind of any major
event, uh, and we are way betterprepared to secure and share

(01:05:19):
knowledge.
Um, and I think that people,some people are taking the steps
to make boxes and stuff that uhsurvive many things.
Then there's a whole solarflare, what will happen with our
electricity, etc.
What I do in my life is askingmyself, how can I make today a

(01:05:40):
good day?
Because the other thing is alonger, way longer dialogue.
And then I look at what we cando to make the changes.
And I think some of the workCecilia does and I do is to try
to help parents or people whoare becoming parents to get an

(01:06:04):
even deeper and betterunderstanding of how you can
live in a good harmonic statewith your children, in many
ways, a more correct as a debatebut natural way of living
together.
I think what we have found withnot being separated from our

(01:06:24):
children, with having them athome, with Cecilia being there,
being the mom at home for allthese years, and now me, because
we moved into the digital nomadspace, make us able to be a
whole family.
Where earlier we were out, Iwas out, they were at home.
That's one of the interestingaspects of the nomadic life, is

(01:06:46):
that it can bring families thatwere scattered together.
People often refer to familiesor camping trips as wonderful
times before because they weretogether.
Yeah.
I see when we are in our wehave different states, you can
say we have housing states uh inour life where we nomadically

(01:07:10):
co-live in a house.
Just in a house, we are morescattered.
We are in different rooms fromtime to time.
When we are in a band from timeto time, traveling from A to B,
which maybe can take a month ifwe are having a good long fun
road trip, we're living so closetogether.
And I really in many ways loveit.

(01:07:31):
I like that we have thisbreathing in, breathing out
between it, and and that timetogether is really valuable.
And I think that the nomadiclife can bring that forward.
At the same time, I do notthink people, if you go back to
other cultures or states before,if you believe in if you take

(01:07:51):
Graham Hancock's theories forgranted, there were at that time
both nomad people, I will get,and people who stayed and and
farmed the land, etc.

With every human culture, there's been this odd
explorer.
There's always this odd group,in some cultures more than
others, who venture out toexplore the world, who do crazy
stuff.
Like they're the travelers andthe ones who experiment with how
what we can come up withsolutions, weirdos.

(01:08:23):
Some of them are sent to jailbecause they're breaking some
sort of religious law, whatever,with their experiments of
thinking or doing or or familylife, or even farming.
I mean, people were afraid ofthe potato when it first came.
So, I mean, this thing thatsome people just think out of

(01:08:44):
the box and some travel far awayfrom home.
Yes, it's part of the humangenome, maybe.
I mean, it's just part of whowe are.

Yeah, you talked about the wild rat, right?
In that experiment.
When they found the wild rat.
So I'm wondering if if thedigital nomad instinct is part
of uh an instinct to rewildourselves.

But I rather think I'm very I don't I don't
say that you have this opinionpersonally.
I'm just afraid that we'remaking this assumption that the
nomads are doing somethingthat's better or cleaner or
smarter or more involved thanthose who are not choosing the

(01:09:33):
nomadic lifestyle.
I think it's just part of Idon't think there is a way we
will ever be able to describehumans are like this.
I agree.
Some humans are a lot ofthings.
If you take all of us or agroup of a hundred thousand of
us, you will see the samepattern throughout cultures,

(01:09:56):
throughout climate zones,throughout all kinds of
religious lines or whatever.
If you take a hundred thousandhuman beings, then you get all
the different things.
And there will be the oddtravelers, there will be the
ones who think outside the box,there will be the ones who do
the grinding, there will be theones who are very spiritual,

(01:10:17):
there will be the ones who arevery rational, there will be the
odd psychopath.
That one we've had throughouthistory as well, the one who
can't feel.
It's strange and we're afraidof it because it's strange and
it ruins community.
I want to say one final thing.
I've no, I've got one minute,just because I want to say it's

(01:10:38):
been like a little thing in mybrain tickling since you said
it.
You said when you talk aboutcommunity, lots of people would
jump to think about communism,and that was so interesting
because you're from the otherside of the pond and we're from
this very socialistic country,but also possibly I don't know,

(01:10:59):
it's a very good country.
The Scandinavian culturesactually really work in many
ways.
We would never think communismif you say community here.
We share a lot of things, andin the Scandinavian cultures,
people are actually hope it'sstill true, good at thinking
about the community, abouteveryone, about democratic

(01:11:24):
choices, about inclusion, abouthow do we share the space and
and what is good for the people,and that's not communism,
that's being social, which isjust part of who we are.

Perfect.
Then, Jamie, if people want toread some of your research, read
what you have done, are yousharing your findings with the
world?

Once it's all I guess once I've done my my
thesis, defense, and all thatkind of stuff, I would love to.
Yeah.
I mean, this is also anotherbook that I read, Digital Nomad
by Siguio Makimoto, DavidManners.
This was written in themid-90s, even before.
It was a it was a predictivebook.

(01:12:08):
Another book that I'm readingis called Teaching at Twilight:
The Meaning of Education in theAge of Collapse.
This is a lot of my motivationthinking about the future and
what how education can preparepeople for a potentially nomadic
future.
It's been a pleasure speakingwith you again.

It's been fun.
Let's do it again.

Yeah, let's do it again.
Jamie, once again, thank youfor your time.
And I'll already look forwardto our next tour.
Thank you so much.
It's been fun.
Happy traveling.
Stay safe.

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Jamie Rumble | Nomadic Becoming in the Anthropocene

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Jamie Rumble | Nomadic Becoming in the Anthropocene