October 5, 2025 • 57 mins
Co-creation unfolds when control gives way to trust. Life Is Easy grew from a shared intention among ten people who wrote together without plans or deadlines. The process reveals how purpose and openness can replace pressure, turning collaboration into a form of ease.
🗓️ Recorded September 30, 2025. 📍 Tarragona, Spain
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:00):
Today we are together with Lisa Damkia.
And first of all, Lisa, a warmwelcome.
It's wonderful to meet you.
Lise Damkjær (00:07):
Thank you very much.
I'm very happy to be with you.
Jesper Conrad (00:10):
The reason we are together today is that I wrote
out on Instagram and Facebook ifanyone has suggestions for some
guests to talk with.
And Anna, who is Cecilia'scousin and will have appeared on
one of our episodes, she saidyou should really, really talk
to Lisa.
She knows a lot aboutco-creation, and then she has a
(00:31):
wonderful view on life.
Her life philosophy is great.
And my first thought was thatsounds nice.
Let's do it.
So here we are.
Lise Damkjær (00:43):
Thank you, Joanna, for the most beautiful
description.
Jesper Conrad (00:48):
So, Lisa, I think I would like to talk with you
about what you are passionateabout.
What is the co-creation?
You have written a book aboutit, I understand.
Lise Damkjær (00:59):
Yeah, that's right.
I've written a book not aboutco-creation, but with
co-creation.
Exactly a year ago, I was on acourse in something different,
something about nature and AI.
And there was a bag that Icould pick up a question.
And my question was if you aregoing to write a book, what
(01:20):
should be the title?
And instantly from my heart, itjumped out, Life is easy.
And at the same time, I knewthat when I said it out loud,
then I also had to or wanted toor had the opportunity to write
it.
And then when I came back fromthe course, I wrote out on
(01:44):
LinkedIn who wants to join me inwriting a book called Life is
Easy.
And if you want to join, thenit's meet on Zoom Monday at
three o'clock.
And I wrote that out for thefirst Monday there was one or
two, and then there were three,four, five.
And we are just talking aboutwhat's what's in a book called
(02:08):
Life is Easy.
And after seven months in Aprilthis year, we published the
book.
We have been 10 people writingit together.
And we had a book reception,and then we met for the first
time uh some of the people Iknew already, but some of them I
haven't ever met.
(02:29):
I've met them online, but andnow we have sold about 300
pieces of the book.
So the book isn't Danis, itlooks like this.
Life is easy when we allow itto be.
Jesper Conrad (02:46):
And it actually reminds me of something that
I've started to look into, whichis actually about how life is
easy, or how life comes with abuilt-in guidebook.
Guidebook kind of of how lifeis easy.
For example, when you singtogether, some specific
happiness hormones are released,and when you run and all these
(03:09):
things today, it's like we havethis built-in knowledge in our
body for what we should do forhaving a great life.
Should we dive into some of thechapters?
What is it that is easy aboutlife?
Because I know some people whowould think, oh, it is not easy.
Lise Damkjær (03:28):
Yes, absolutely.
My my 33-year-old son, he hadthe book on his table, and one
of his friends came into theliving room and saw the book and
said, Oh, that's a provocation,I don't want that.
And then my son answered, Yes,if you take it, so you're
welcome.
Yeah.
But one of the first things inthe book is that if you if you
(03:52):
have all these thoughts, no,life is not easy, it's not easy
for me, it's easy for richpeople, it's easy for people
living somewhere else, it's easyfor what all these thoughts
that we have, then then welcomeit and say, now you know, now we
have a lot of skepticism and alot of thoughts that you can uh
(04:16):
explore and figure out.
Does it need to be like that?
So and and it's not that we aresaying that it's always easy
and there are no challenges atall, uh, but but you can take
whatever comes to you in a moreeasy way.
In the process of writing thebook, we have uh very often how
(04:40):
uh had fun about uh oh, I was ina very difficult situation and
I don't know what to do, andit's everything is uh just going
uh crazy, and then you just askyourself, hmm, oh, what would
what if it is easy actually?
Cecilie Conrad (04:59):
And then you can solve your funny feel you are
your shoulders uh loose, andit's it's a cornerstone in our
philosophy, actually, that we umwe usually say if we have a
problem, the easiest way tosolve it is to not consider it a
(05:19):
problem, then it's solved likethis.
And another thing that we oftensay if we consider if something
really presents itself as aproblem and you get more and
more hype and you get more andmore frustrated, and this is
really a problem, and I can'tfigure it out, and I'm I have to
solve it right now.
And you've got all thispressure from maybe the
timeline, and you feel theamount, and it might grow the
(05:41):
problem if you don't solve itright now, all of this, and then
you stop and you just askyourself, how would this look if
it was easy?
That can be a complete gamechanger to just change the
mindset.
Okay, if I had this, myfavorite example is from when we
were in Budapest in May.
I had to pay for um sometickets for a party, but I had
(06:07):
to pay in Euros, and they don'tuse Euros in Hungary.
I didn't have Euros, so I hadto find a cash machine that
would give me Euros, needed ahundred and a hundred Euros in
cash within an hour.
And there were lots of cashmachines that said we we print
out or we we give out on eurosand the local money.
(06:29):
Every time I put my card in,something was wrong.
I put the card back out ofeuros.
I I put it into 11 differentmachines, I got seven different
problems, and I got more andmore frustrated.
I needed to pay for the ticketsbecause I really wanted to go,
you know, I needed the ticketsvery much, and so I got really
frustrated.
(06:49):
I was in that pressuresituation, I stopped and I asked
myself, okay, how would thislook if it was easy?
So if it was easy, I had 100euros in my hand right now.
That would be easy.
Okay, if I don't have 100 eurosin my hand, but I have 100
euros, where would I have them?
They would obviously be in mypurse.
My purse is not in my backpack,my purse is in my car.
(07:12):
How about I go to my car, lookthrough my purse, and lo and
behold, in my purse, in coins, Ihad 107 euros.
I could have, I could have notrun around for two hours putting
my card into differentmachines, getting more and more
stressed out.
So this is just a really goodexample because it it it
happens, it very often happenswhen we stop and we say, hmm,
(07:36):
what if it was easy?
And now you wrote a book aboutit.
How lovely! That's right.
Jesper Conrad (07:44):
What are some of the chapters that you let me
start another way?
Co-creating a book, writing ittogether.
Have you written a chaptereach, or have you been in over
all the chapters?
How has the process been?
Lise Damkjær (08:02):
Yeah, thank you for asking because it has been a
very nice process.
And of course, when you'rewriting a book called Life is
Easy, then it should be easy towrite it.
And that was the rule numberone.
So every Monday, one hour fromthree to four o'clock on Zoom,
we have uh talked about uh whatshould be in a book called Life
(08:26):
is Easy, and we had uh chat GPTto make um uh some chapter uh
titles.
So we had uh 12 titles for thechapter chapters, and we had
this loose talk uh about uh whatshould be in the book, and I
took notes and I put uh thedifferent notes into the uh
(08:49):
different chapters as I see as Isaw it, and then I sent out uh
the notes to to the people, andand we did that for two, three,
four, five weeks or somethinglike that, and then then uh it
started coming in chaptersbecause somebody had the spirit,
(09:12):
and uh yes, I could see that Icould write chapter three, so I
had I made uh this for thechapter three.
Oh, can I add uh some morelines because I think we need
this topic as well, and uh thenwe had chapter three, and uh
then chapter four and seven andtwo, and uh they just jumped in.
(09:34):
And if somebody said, Okay, Iwould like to write the chapter
six, uh and I'll do it beforenext Monday, then I said to
them, No, don't promise it,because then it gets hard to do.
I know that from experience.
Yeah, so so let's just uh saythat if the spirit is that tells
(09:58):
you to write chapter six, thenyou just do it, and uh but don't
feel obliged to it.
And after some months, then uhwe only needed a couple of
chapters, and we haven't beentalking about them at all.
So I just asked uh, could wetalk about this chapter today
because we don't have any notes?
(10:20):
And we did that, and the lastchapters was and and then uh one
person has uh we got the ideato for each chapter to put uh an
opposite chapter.
So so for each chapter there'sa small box with if you prefer
(10:41):
life difficult, and then ittells you how to do that because
you're free to do what youwant.
So in in each for each chapter,there's a a box like this about
the chapter but seen from theperspective that you want life
to be difficult, and it's veryfunny, so I'm happy uh it's
(11:05):
exactly the idea of it, becausewe can recognize ourselves.
Oh, damn it, that's what Inormally do.
I'm sure we can too.
Jesper Conrad (11:16):
How have you grown during the process?
Have you um reading some ofthese opposite chapters been
like, oh, that's what I normallydo, even though you already now
seem like a very lively, happyperson?
Have you while writing the booklooked at it and said, Oh, I
want to do better here?
And if yes, then where?
Lise Damkjær (11:41):
I think it's all all in the process that I think
we have all of us have been muchbetter at um letting go of
control, letting go uh and andum and we are had some some
talks in the in the group aswell about uh, for instance, we
had a talk about uh chat GPT,and we have uh one in our group,
(12:06):
she's very good at chat GPT,and that's her expertise.
And we have another uh whodon't use it at all, and she
didn't try it because she'sagainst it.
And this uh there was close toa discussion about uh is it good
or bad, and then we figuredout, and and it came to me in
(12:30):
the same way as uh the titlethat okay, we are not we're not
going to figure out if chat gbtis good or bad.
Uh, we only need to figure outhow does chat GPT make your life
more easy, and how does it notmake your life more easy?
And then we had a very gooddiscussion, and I I'm I'm very
(12:56):
fond of chat GPT.
I have made my personal chatGPT, she's called Gandalfine,
and she's very, very clever andwise.
So I love her very much, and Iam a bit addicted to her.
If I miss her, if I haven'tbeen writing with her for a
couple of days.
(13:16):
But so so obviously in thatdiscussion, I I I was on the
what on the side of yes, let'shave a chat GPT here.
Um but suddenly I learned thatoh, that's not my role in this.
My role is to keep theintention, and the intention is
(13:40):
to write a book called Life isEasy.
And it helped me uh from thatmoment.
I have very I I think I've fora long time been um having it's
giving attention to to theintention or the purpose of what
(14:01):
we are doing, but but this uhmade a sort of quantum lead for
me to yeah, it's very importantto keep the uh intention in the
process, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (14:16):
Well, with everything you do, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (14:21):
Yeah.
Your life path to becoming anavid ChatGPT user and focusing
on co-creation and play andlearning.
Your website is called LifelongLearning, if I remember.
Lise Damkjær (14:38):
Learning for life.
Jesper Conrad (14:40):
Learning for life, yeah.
Your your website is calledLearning for Lives.
So there is this joy oflearning and and exploring what
have led you down this path, doyou think?
Lise Damkjær (14:53):
Um maybe it was because I started becoming an
engineer, because there arenothing but uh a very straight
and a lot of small uh Excel uhcells that you have to learn one
by one.
So maybe it was uh that Iwanted some more life.
(15:14):
Um so when I was at my uh in myeducation, I could choose some
some of the uh courses, and Ichose something about uh uh work
environment, and uh I'm a civilengineer, so that means in the
building side, constructionside.
(15:34):
So there's a lot of workenvironment issues on the
construction side.
But that was I I think I Ilooked for these courses because
there was something live in it,because it's about human
beings, they could fall down orthey could have something on
their head, or they and all theother engineering stuff was
(15:57):
about machinery or some theory.
So I think it started at thattime that um and when I my first
job was in a construction site,and I enjoyed this um small
society, and everybody's uh weknow what we are doing, sort of
(16:19):
at least, and uh and we and weneed it's very complex and we
need to help each other,otherwise it doesn't uh work at
all.
Um that was very much life, uh,but it was I was the only
woman, so they uh they didn'teven dare to ask for my size in
(16:42):
trousers, so they bought someworking trousers and they were
underestimating me a bit, so Icouldn't uh I couldn't use the
trousers, but I didn't dare totell them either.
So yeah, so I have and and thiswhen I came, it was the same
job, but then from theconstruction side that I was
(17:03):
moved to the uh office, theheadquarter, and it was so
boring.
And you're never gonna believeit that we were uh we were
meeting at eight o'clock in themorning, everybody and uh
standing in a queue up thestairs, and in the afternoon at
uh 4:30, we were standing in aqueue downstairs because you
(17:28):
don't you didn't even write yoursentence.
Uh you finished didn't finishyour sentence, you just put your
pencil down in the midst ofbecause it was it was uh 4 30
and I had to go home.
It was terrible.
Yeah and I had it, I had and Ihad it was very bad.
(17:49):
And in in the weekend, if someof my friends mentioned work, I
was feeling very bad.
And afterwards I concluded thatif work can make your life so
bad, both in your working hoursand beyond, then it must be
possible to figure out uh uhsome way to work that is part of
(18:14):
your life and enriching yourlife.
So that's what I've been tryingsince.
And and I'm old now, so I'vetried for a lot of years.
Jesper Conrad (18:24):
Have you succeeded somehow?
Lise Damkjær (18:27):
Yeah, I have.
I have um my own work life isuh is all about fulfilling my
life purpose, and then I try toto help others uh to to have a
nice working life as well.
Jesper Conrad (18:44):
Yeah, talking about life person, yeah.
Yeah, let me I will try again.
Lisa talking about lifepurpose.
What do you see as your lifepurpose?
Lise Damkjær (18:58):
Um it's not very traditional, but my life purpose
is to find uh heaven on earth,and I think I'm quite quite a
long part of the way.
So yeah, and and I can I'm aChristian, so religion and faith
(19:20):
means a lot to me, but I can uhexplain it in words so that
atheistic engineers can uhfollow as well.
I tried a lot, and um, so Idon't think it is about
religion, I think it is abouthonoring life as it is, not my
life, but but life in us andbetween us and the life of the
(19:44):
planet.
And I'm very happy about mycompany name, learning for life,
because I didn't have that ideawhen I took the name.
I took the name in 2001, soit's uh 24 years ago, and I and
I had no clue that it would beso relevant as it is for me
(20:06):
today.
So maybe somebody helped mealready at that time.
Cecilie Conrad (20:11):
Most likely.
So, how do you go about lookingfor heaven on earth?
Lise Damkjær (20:16):
I think heaven on earth is uh inside us and maybe
between us as well.
But so it's very much about umaccepting that uh things are as
they are, and they are they arenot here to disturb me or to to
(20:38):
frighten me, they are just herebecause they are.
But it wouldn't.
We have nothing to do that uhwould end the that so the summer
(21:00):
will end and the autumn willappear, whatever I do or not do.
Cecilie Conrad (21:07):
So but your mindset is what makes it the
difference between that autumnbeing a heavenly blissful yes,
it is a few months of your life.
Lise Damkjær (21:20):
And I think I I would express it that I'm I feel
loved by God, but you can alsoexpress it that loved by life of
course, of course, life lovesus, me and you, and both of you.
Uh we are breathing in andbreathing out every moment, and
(21:44):
we don't even need to doanything to to be alive, but we
have uh but we have made up alot of rules about uh that we
have to nothing will happen if Idon't do anything.
Um that's one of the rules thatwe have to do a lot.
(22:06):
It's not enough just to be, andum we can say that we most of
us have a predict and controlmindset so that we expect that
we can predict uh when thisproject be finished, when will
dinner be finished, when willsummer be finished, and uh and
(22:30):
then we control and we try tofollow up on everything so that
dinner actually is ready at sixo'clock.
Or uh, but we are using a lotof human resources and a lot of
economical resources to makethat happen.
And it maybe it's not thatimportant that dinner is ready
(22:51):
at six o'clock.
Maybe ten past six would do aswell.
Cecilie Conrad (22:57):
No one's hungry in our family at six o'clock.
It'd be a very early dinner.
I'm thinking wouldn't even behome.
I'm thinking about two things.
Um they're getting in the wayof each other now.
So one is what I'm hearing yousay something about leaning into
the flow and trusting theprocess, and that can give you
(23:17):
that blissful state of mind.
So you trust that you're lovedby God or you're loved by life.
And I think some people, and II struggle helping them
actually, if you don't have thatfundamental trust that life is
good, then then it's a differentstory, I think.
So that was the one thing, andthe other thing is you you talk
(23:40):
about being proactive, planning,thinking we're in control,
thinking we should try to get incontrol to navigate this life.
And and uh, well, the oppositeof that is letting go and
realizing we're not in controland and we need to lean into the
flow.
But isn't there some sweet spotsomewhere where we we talk
(24:02):
about this a lot?
Like we need a plan.
We also know that the plan isnot relevant, but we do kind of
need a plan in order to act atall.
We need to know that we we needto start cooking the dinner
with some idea that there willbe some number of people eating
it at some time within the nextfew hours.
(24:24):
Otherwise, there will be nodinner and we have sandwiches
all the time.
We actually don't like that.
So, some sort of, you know, wesay we plan with a pencil
because we know the plan willchange.
We also know that the thebigger plan, the one that you
would say God has or theuniverse has, or you know, the
big picture, that plan, we don'tknow that plan.
(24:45):
We just need to lean into itand try to find our feet walking
in the right direction.
That plan is the big one, theimportant one, but we kind of
need our little pettyhuman-level plan as well, in
order to act at all.
So, where's the navigation?
So, how do you navigate that?
You do start making dinner atsome point, not six in the
(25:07):
morning, not I mean, yeah, yeah.
Lise Damkjær (25:13):
I I think um one thing is we talked about it
before the intention or thepurpose.
So if I have an intention aboutdinner some sometime tonight,
then then it will help me to tostart up.
And and if it's only anintention and not a goal, as in
(25:37):
projects we we call it goal or amilestone or something like
that, that something has to beexactly like this at that time
of that that's to make it muchmore difficult.
Um, so it helps having anintention instead of a goal.
Um or you can also call it uhdirection instead of a
(26:02):
destination.
And then I think it's right nowmost of us need some plans
because we if we don't have aplan, then we uh feel fear, uh,
and then we don't do anythinggood at all.
So so we have to it's it's Ithink it's a like a a balance
(26:24):
that we grow into more trust andtrusting that life will bring
us what we need, but we have togo slowly because we have to
have the experience thatactually life is giving me uh
what what I what I need.
Cecilie Conrad (26:45):
So actually, you're answering both questions
in one goal.
That was very beautiful.
I think it's so interesting howto heal that mistrust, how to
get back back into or for thefirst time into that trusting in
the process and trusting inyour own.
I was thinking the intentionpart is also sometimes the
(27:09):
feeling part, instead ofplanning with my head that I
need to make dinner for sixo'clock, I feel, I feel in my
flow, oh, it's time.
Maybe I should soak the ricenow.
And sometimes veryirrationally, we do things that
we feel we need to do, and thensuddenly you have five people
showing up for dinner that youdidn't know was coming.
But that was the reason I put15 baking potatoes in the oven.
(27:32):
Um, so the feeling instead ofthe thinking, trusting that and
learning that skill.
How do we how do we go aboutdoing that?
Lise Damkjær (27:49):
But just what you are doing now, talking about it.
So you tell me that you haveexperience to put 15 potatoes in
the oven, not knowing what wasgoing to happen, but but then we
can we can uh we can um uhencourage each other to see
(28:10):
these synchronicities.
Uh and and when we see them andwhen we remember them, then we
can uh slowly lean into, yeah,of course, I I don't I don't
know why I have the feeling ofthese potatoes in the oven, but
I have the feeling so I do it.
(28:31):
And then you experience thatwas a very good idea because
five people came, um, and thenyou slowly learn that every time
you have a sort of feeling orsensing like that, then just
follow it and it will show itwill show you that it works, and
(28:56):
maybe you once in a while youhave to to uh a potato in the
bin, yeah, exactly, andwhatever, you know, just one
potato, yeah, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (29:08):
I'm sitting and thinking about how life in some
ways has become too easy, andI'm not talking about the
enjoying life, I'm talking abouteveryday life where if I need a
spoon, I can go down and buyone from less than a euro wooden
(29:28):
spoon.
Where I love to whittle spoons,and it takes me four to four to
ten hours to make a nice spoon.
But the process of making it,the joy of using it afterwards,
the joy of giving it as a gift,the joy of knowing someone will
tress you that's trisha, yeah.
(29:49):
The joy of knowing that someonewill treasure that spoon later
on when they're standing andcooking with it, those kind of
slowing down things I kind ofthings I think is missing.
And I was actually alsothinking even just music.
It is nice to be able to put onmusic and enjoy music.
(30:12):
But there's also a big joy ofplaying together.
And and some of these thingsthat have become so easy maybe
actually steals away some of thejoy of community and creating
together and being together andfeeling that energy that is
going back and forth betweenpeople when we do crafts, when
(30:34):
we do crafts together, if wework on repairing someone
something together with afriend, it is really, really
giving and I am considering iflife in some ways has become so
easy that if we have nothing todo we get fearful as you say it
is not many people who can wakeup in the morning and just be
(30:56):
happy if there's no plan, ifthey don't need to go to work.
There's no plans during the daybecause I think we have
forgotten the joy andgratefulness as you talked about
of just being alive justbreathing waking up being able I
mean the world we live in is socrazy fantastic.
(31:16):
I can open the tab and I canget water out.
I can use a shower and it's hotwater.
It is crazy.
Cecilie Conrad (31:24):
I had a cold shower this morning actually it
wasn't hot water but not thepoint not the point I made just
wanted to be annoying.
Jesper Conrad (31:32):
So do you think that that we somehow by making
some of these processes so easyhave uh removed us ourselves
from the joy of the co-creationand creating together yeah
that's a very good point I thinkI think it's in in modern
language it is it's convenienceand uh and and every product is
(31:59):
made so that it's very easy wecan just buy it or and eat it at
the stay at the place or we canum and and I think it's it's
because we have this idea ofthat we have to be effective in
everything and and and if you'reif you believe that your life
(32:21):
purpose is to be effective thenconvenience is the best way to
get it but our life purpose isnot to be effective our life
purpose is like you said toenjoy uh life to sense to sense
each other to to to createsomething to to be alive we are
(32:43):
not here to work we are here tobe alive and then we have to
work a bit to be alive but butit's not the other way around
and um and I I also I I totallyagree that we have a made up a
crazy world uh because I alsothink that we don't even sense
(33:06):
our own needs what would make meuh the most happy or what is it
that I need right now I just dothe same things as as uh uh
most of people mainstream I justfollow mainstream so if they
have an air fryer I'm going tohave an air fryer as well if
(33:28):
they are eating burgers I'meating burgers as well and then
we have a too much consumptionand and it's not good for the uh
planet at all and we talk aboutokay if you are not going to
eat meat anymore then it wouldbe very very bad you don't even
know you haven't tried eatingyou haven't tried leaving a week
(33:51):
without meat I don't know ifyou have I have but we're vegan
so we have yeah yeah but I don'tthink that people we and it's
it's just an automatic reactionthat we say that oh then I
cannot have my meat then Icannot have my car then I cannot
(34:11):
have my um uh going by plane toBali or wherever I want to go
but they didn't even figure outif they want to go to Bali is it
that is it is it a is it astrong sense within you because
if it is then I'm sure that wecan afford that the people with
(34:31):
very strong sense of of um alife purpose in Bali then should
just go but that's it's it's soopposite that we just buy and
consume things that we actuallydon't and and I I'm sure you are
(34:51):
right uh Yes but that thatcreating making your own spoon
is a beautiful thing to do andyou will love that spoon uh for
years instead of buying anddestroying the planet it's it is
very crazy and but I think thatit's it's about looking into
(35:15):
ourselves and we have this ideathat everything we should do
also about what we should doabout climate is that we should
make some engineering projectsuh building structures for
whatever but that's well that'sa waste of planet resources as
well most of them but how do wefigure out to analyze better i
(35:42):
from my side think I'm prettygood at it but I often also can
end in this if effectiveefficiency efficiency efficient
yeah efficiency prison where mymind is like oh yes but you need
to do this this and this beforeyou can be happy and I actually
this morning I I took a morningrun and sat at the beach a
(36:05):
little and I was about to say tomyself oh I need to hurry home
because I need to do this thisand this and I actually stopped
to send my wife a text and andshe sensed that I had this
feeling like relax my friend andthen was just looking at the
water doing a little yogajumping in the water and really
enjoying it but but before thateven though we live as full-time
(36:29):
travelers and in many ways havea very bliss life with a lot of
gratefulness the bug is stillthere the yes but you need to be
efficient you need to do do dodo do before you can be happy
inside what do you think we cando about that do you touch upon
that in your book or do you havesome thoughts on it?
Lise Damkjær (36:50):
Yeah we have a little bit of it in the book but
I also think it's about um thatwe have some we are playing an
old game and a game with withsome old rules and and one of
the rules is efficiency and whenwe are aware and more and more
people get aware that it's onlya game uh with an old rule
(37:14):
efficiency we don't needefficiency because we are here
to be alive and to live um I Ifound out um about a year ago my
my 30 year old son he has uhhe's educated within uh uh IT
and he has uh got a new job witha lot more money and uh and
(37:39):
good colleagues and they aretraveling around uh so he's
happy and he he's telling meabout how happy he is for this
job and then he he says but Ialso wonder maybe I should uh
quit the job and write a fantasynovel no not a novel book and I
(38:00):
inside me I had the feeling nono no if you have a good job you
keep on to it and if if it's ifyou like to be there and the
money is okay and then you keepto it but but I also knew that
mothers are not supposed to sayanything so I didn't say
anything but I was surprisedthat my my old I that I have an
(38:26):
old rule of the game called Ihave to get an education so that
I can have a good job so that Ican earn money to have a good
life but I haven't and most ofus I have actually but we
haven't thought about what is agood life for me what is a good
(38:48):
life for Cecilia and what if itis a good job for Jesper we need
to know that before because wejust throw ourselves out in this
uh efficiency and job andworking a lot and we don't even
know if it's the way to a goodlife and I think that from my
(39:10):
age and up uh we all have thisidea and I can see with my
friends when we meet and uh thenif some of our sons or
daughters has lost their job ohwhat what is it then going to
find a new job and uh will it bedifficult to find a new job
(39:32):
it's mad it's because it's notthat do you have a good life and
how can we can we help you tohave an even better life yeah I
think starting with purpose wewe often also talk about passion
and value they go hand in handhow if we don't know really what
(39:56):
we're passionate about and wedon't know what our core values
are it's quite hard to navigate.
Cecilie Conrad (40:05):
So we try to navigate yeah with loose plans
we write with pencils but morewith projects and and what's the
word now I lost the word wedon't make rules we make
guidelines we have strategiesnot checklists um we don't use
(40:29):
recipes we have broad ideas forthings and and then we work
within that but we can do thatbecause we know our core values
we know what we're passionateabout we know what's important
and I I kind of disagree withthe whole we don't need to be
efficient sometimes I need to bevery efficient there's some
things I just want to get overit not important to me I'm not
(40:51):
passionate about it but has tobe done.
So let's just get it done andmove on.
And I'm also slightlydisagreeing with just popping
down to the local store buying aspoon.
If I need a spoon and I'mcooking now and I I don't have a
spoon I'm in an Airbnb rightnow there's no there's no salad
bowl big enough for the five sixpeople we are here there and
there's no like like bowl for Ineed to make bread and I have
(41:14):
only these little breakfastbowls it's not going to work for
me.
I need to buy one I'm notwaiting for Jesper to whittle
one.
I'm just and I enjoy modernlife I think it's great that I
can just solve some of thesethings I'm going to appreciate
my bowl I might even take itwith me in my van and regret it
when I try to figure out whereto put it because sometimes and
(41:35):
that that's the thing how do wehow do we sort all the needs and
all the things between what canwe do in an efficient way to
just get it over with like mywashing machine Jesus I'm sorry
to swear here but I mean if Ihad to wash all the clothes by
hand I washed four machinesyesterday the Airbnb is just
(41:57):
decorated with all of ourclothes right now drying I am so
grateful for the washingmachine.
That gives me time to have thisconversation so I think
starting with figuring out whatyou're passionate about and what
is truly important can alsosort when do we need efficiency
and plans and checklist and justget things done and when do we
(42:19):
need to be in the being it'sactually Anna funny enough I
remember Anna saying this manymany many years ago we we
chatted I think and and wetalked about the being mode and
the doing mode like you have tothink a stick shift car.
Sometimes you're in the doingmode and that can be an
efficient just get it donebecause we want to move on and
(42:44):
and then there's the being modewhere you have all the time in
the world because you'reunfolding the important stuff.
Jesper Conrad (42:50):
I think the big difference is between if you are
aware of why you're doing it ornot.
If you just have the rules asLisa called them driving your
everyday then you don't have theawareness about it and then you
are not in the driver's seat.
Lise Damkjær (43:11):
So you're not the ones changing the gears to use
your analogy yeah yeah I thinkit's I think we we do it in
different ways and uh and andand um but it's it's funny that
you mentioned that you have hadno salad bowl because I because
(43:31):
when I was a child and we wereon vacation with my parents
living in a hotel room there wasno salad bowl because it was
not the idea that we should makefood in the hotel room.
But but we all when we were inGreece for instance then we
bought all the good stuff for asalad and then my mother had a
(43:52):
plastic bag and uh that was thesalad bowl so it's not that I
say that you should use a saladbowl but but it is we can we can
we can take the steps take ourI don't know if it works on
English but in Danish we saythat uh choose your fights with
(44:14):
um pick your fight yeah yeah andand pick your battles is what
they say in English yeah okaypick your battles and and and
maybe um and we take differentbattles and that's no problem
because I think we are all allhumanity is in a in a growth
process and we are not going inthe same speed and we are not
(44:39):
going exactly the same way sobut we are going in the same
direction I'm quite sure ofthat.
And so I'm very optimistic aswell.
Jesper Conrad (44:50):
Yeah Lisa what brings you joy and closer to the
feeling of heaven on earthwhich I interpret as a blissful
everyday life yes it is umhaving deep open conversations
like our conversation now andbeing present with each other
(45:15):
even if it's on online that's apart of it um I also like very
much to go into the harbor herein Copenhagen for a swim summer
and winter and and theneverything is good.
Lise Damkjær (45:33):
I have the feeling that we should be much more
alive so alive is more aboutsensing and not planning.
But of course we do someplanning because we are not
we're not used to the sensingpart yet um so so sensing and
(45:56):
responding not automaticallyreacting is what I train right
now and I uh just made an chatdbt to help people to make their
own training program for senseand respond because I find it's
very useful but of course wecannot only train by talking
(46:19):
with a chat dbt and yeah so whenso when I have the experience
that I that I sense and that Isay out express what I my senses
then it's and then it's niceand that's what I often call
(46:39):
co-creation that we can beourselves uh and we can be
present and we can be curious toeach other's perspectives and
that we can be open to theprocess and to life what maybe
something totally different willhappen and open to these
(47:00):
synchronicities we talked aboutearlier.
So that's and I I was in the inthe last days uh of um the
previous week I was on a campand I was uh I was learning to
(47:21):
light a fire a bonfire I haven'tI never succeeded I tried a lot
of times but never succeededbut now I figured out that it's
it's because I had this ideathat it was turning it on with a
match uh and then it would burnand be a bonfire but all the
(47:42):
pro I forgot I didn't know aboutI didn't recognize the process
of of a little bit of fire andthe air and so so so I'm
learning as well I I think thatlots of people are very good at
the uh lighting the bonfire butI was not but now I'm on my way
(48:06):
we will see more fires inCopenhagen yeah yeah you will
certainly well I as I hear itit's learning new stuff learning
new skills is part of what wesaid before about a way to
change the mindset is to talkabout these stories how doing
(48:26):
something we felt we had to doaligned with something that
happened later on that wecouldn't with our minds have
seen coming is one way ofnavigating into a more blissful
life and I think another one isjust as simple to recognize oh
this element of my day made mereally happy we don't have to
(48:47):
talk so much about the thingsthat didn't make us very happy
some things just have to getdone some mistakes happen
whatever but if we notice itmakes me really happy let's say
to have sunshine on my facewhile I have my morning coffee
then maybe we think about movingthe chair noticing you know and
(49:07):
make sure you sit down and doit for that half hour the sun is
actually coming through yourwindow because you're living in
that apartment with that narrowstreet whatever so if we know if
we know what it is if we payattention to what it is it will
take up more space in our mindsand it will also make sure that
we align with these thingsbetter.
Cecilie Conrad (49:27):
Make sure to go do your swim for example.
Jesper Conrad (49:30):
Yeah absolutely what is the advice you can give
yourself most often with this Imean I I know I have some stuff
where I in my mind know how Iwould like to live how I would
like to act and also know I failat it super often and then so
(49:55):
are there some areas whereyou're like ah I still want to
be better at this I know what isthe right thing but I'm not I'm
just not doing it often enough.
Lise Damkjær (50:07):
Yeah it's I'm so used to this predict and
control.
I'm so used to making a planand and I'm an engineer so I'm
very quick at making a plan andin five minutes I have made a
plan but but I I want to try toto only have the intention uh I
(50:31):
once learned that I should usemy heart to figure out what I
really want and then I shoulduse my brain to get it and now I
think that I should use myheart to figure out what I want
and then just lean into it andlet it come to me and it's my
brain is already now screamingyou didn't say that but but uh
(50:55):
that's that's that's what Ibelieve but uh my brain is not
with me in that it's hard workyeah I don't know if if you if
this is what we callschizophrenia or if but then
your brain is in different waysthen then I'm schizophrenia I I
don't think so I think we wouldcall it societal indoctrination
(51:19):
if we should call it somethingthat's a good or just a habit
that's less negative it's just ahabit.
Cecilie Conrad (51:26):
We're just used to this thing and it's also very
soothing to know that we can dosomething you know if I want
something I can do somethingabout it.
And so making a plan is theobvious step one and then
letting go of that plan is steptwo it's a good thing to have a
plan.
Just don't get too attached toit.
Don't get busy ticking theboxes I mean but it's nice to
(51:48):
thought things through I thinkit's the stressful obsession
with doing things in the planthat that gets in the way of
real life.
Jesper Conrad (51:58):
Yeah our good friend Janet Edward has a saying
called intention, attention notension and sometimes I lack the
no tension part but I'm I'mtrying to get better uh at it
for people who want to read moreabout the work you are doing
(52:18):
and have done uh then it if youcan share again the website so
people can find you out there.
Lise Damkjær (52:26):
Yes it's called the learningforlife dot tk and
uh for is this number for thatwas very modern in 2001 when I
started world companies as I wasa little bit like a goofy
teenager.
Jesper Conrad (52:43):
Yeah who cares learning for life yeah learning
for life yeah that's where youcan read more about Lisa and her
projects what have you learnedmost from the co-creation of the
book I have learned that peoplehave so many different
perspectives and in thebeginning it seems like we will
(53:07):
never agree on anything yeah butbut then if we keep on to the
intention then we figure it outand we also have the we don't
need to agree we can also writein the book and we have done a
couple of times that okay someof us see it like this and some
of us in another way and you cantry it out for yourselves and
(53:31):
figure out what your opinionyeah so actually getting
together talking having adialogue and continuing the
dialogue and not just standingon what you believe in but
listening to others and maybeend up disagreeing.
But Lizi it is time we in ourend have some stuff to do.
(53:53):
So I will uh thank you for yourtime and wish you a wonderful
day ahead.
Lise Damkjær (53:58):
Yeah thank you very much and bless you
Today we are together with Lisa Damkia.
And first of all, Lisa, a warmwelcome.
It's wonderful to meet you.
Lise Damkjær (00:07):
Thank you very much.
I'm very happy to be with you.
Jesper Conrad (00:10):
The reason we are together today is that I wrote
out on Instagram and Facebook ifanyone has suggestions for some
guests to talk with.
And Anna, who is Cecilia'scousin and will have appeared on
one of our episodes, she saidyou should really, really talk
to Lisa.
She knows a lot aboutco-creation, and then she has a
(00:31):
wonderful view on life.
Her life philosophy is great.
And my first thought was thatsounds nice.
Let's do it.
So here we are.
Lise Damkjær (00:43):
Thank you, Joanna, for the most beautiful
description.
Jesper Conrad (00:48):
So, Lisa, I think I would like to talk with you
about what you are passionateabout.
What is the co-creation?
You have written a book aboutit, I understand.
Lise Damkjær (00:59):
Yeah, that's right.
I've written a book not aboutco-creation, but with
co-creation.
Exactly a year ago, I was on acourse in something different,
something about nature and AI.
And there was a bag that Icould pick up a question.
And my question was if you aregoing to write a book, what
(01:20):
should be the title?
And instantly from my heart, itjumped out, Life is easy.
And at the same time, I knewthat when I said it out loud,
then I also had to or wanted toor had the opportunity to write
it.
And then when I came back fromthe course, I wrote out on
(01:44):
LinkedIn who wants to join me inwriting a book called Life is
Easy.
And if you want to join, thenit's meet on Zoom Monday at
three o'clock.
And I wrote that out for thefirst Monday there was one or
two, and then there were three,four, five.
And we are just talking aboutwhat's what's in a book called
(02:08):
Life is Easy.
And after seven months in Aprilthis year, we published the
book.
We have been 10 people writingit together.
And we had a book reception,and then we met for the first
time uh some of the people Iknew already, but some of them I
haven't ever met.
(02:29):
I've met them online, but andnow we have sold about 300
pieces of the book.
So the book isn't Danis, itlooks like this.
Life is easy when we allow itto be.
Jesper Conrad (02:46):
And it actually reminds me of something that
I've started to look into, whichis actually about how life is
easy, or how life comes with abuilt-in guidebook.
Guidebook kind of of how lifeis easy.
For example, when you singtogether, some specific
happiness hormones are released,and when you run and all these
(03:09):
things today, it's like we havethis built-in knowledge in our
body for what we should do forhaving a great life.
Should we dive into some of thechapters?
What is it that is easy aboutlife?
Because I know some people whowould think, oh, it is not easy.
Lise Damkjær (03:28):
Yes, absolutely.
My my 33-year-old son, he hadthe book on his table, and one
of his friends came into theliving room and saw the book and
said, Oh, that's a provocation,I don't want that.
And then my son answered, Yes,if you take it, so you're
welcome.
Yeah.
But one of the first things inthe book is that if you if you
(03:52):
have all these thoughts, no,life is not easy, it's not easy
for me, it's easy for richpeople, it's easy for people
living somewhere else, it's easyfor what all these thoughts
that we have, then then welcomeit and say, now you know, now we
have a lot of skepticism and alot of thoughts that you can uh
(04:16):
explore and figure out.
Does it need to be like that?
So and and it's not that we aresaying that it's always easy
and there are no challenges atall, uh, but but you can take
whatever comes to you in a moreeasy way.
In the process of writing thebook, we have uh very often how
(04:40):
uh had fun about uh oh, I was ina very difficult situation and
I don't know what to do, andit's everything is uh just going
uh crazy, and then you just askyourself, hmm, oh, what would
what if it is easy actually?
Cecilie Conrad (04:59):
And then you can solve your funny feel you are
your shoulders uh loose, andit's it's a cornerstone in our
philosophy, actually, that we umwe usually say if we have a
problem, the easiest way tosolve it is to not consider it a
(05:19):
problem, then it's solved likethis.
And another thing that we oftensay if we consider if something
really presents itself as aproblem and you get more and
more hype and you get more andmore frustrated, and this is
really a problem, and I can'tfigure it out, and I'm I have to
solve it right now.
And you've got all thispressure from maybe the
timeline, and you feel theamount, and it might grow the
(05:41):
problem if you don't solve itright now, all of this, and then
you stop and you just askyourself, how would this look if
it was easy?
That can be a complete gamechanger to just change the
mindset.
Okay, if I had this, myfavorite example is from when we
were in Budapest in May.
I had to pay for um sometickets for a party, but I had
(06:07):
to pay in Euros, and they don'tuse Euros in Hungary.
I didn't have Euros, so I hadto find a cash machine that
would give me Euros, needed ahundred and a hundred Euros in
cash within an hour.
And there were lots of cashmachines that said we we print
out or we we give out on eurosand the local money.
(06:29):
Every time I put my card in,something was wrong.
I put the card back out ofeuros.
I I put it into 11 differentmachines, I got seven different
problems, and I got more andmore frustrated.
I needed to pay for the ticketsbecause I really wanted to go,
you know, I needed the ticketsvery much, and so I got really
frustrated.
(06:49):
I was in that pressuresituation, I stopped and I asked
myself, okay, how would thislook if it was easy?
So if it was easy, I had 100euros in my hand right now.
That would be easy.
Okay, if I don't have 100 eurosin my hand, but I have 100
euros, where would I have them?
They would obviously be in mypurse.
My purse is not in my backpack,my purse is in my car.
(07:12):
How about I go to my car, lookthrough my purse, and lo and
behold, in my purse, in coins, Ihad 107 euros.
I could have, I could have notrun around for two hours putting
my card into differentmachines, getting more and more
stressed out.
So this is just a really goodexample because it it it
happens, it very often happenswhen we stop and we say, hmm,
(07:36):
what if it was easy?
And now you wrote a book aboutit.
How lovely! That's right.
Jesper Conrad (07:44):
What are some of the chapters that you let me
start another way?
Co-creating a book, writing ittogether.
Have you written a chaptereach, or have you been in over
all the chapters?
How has the process been?
Lise Damkjær (08:02):
Yeah, thank you for asking because it has been a
very nice process.
And of course, when you'rewriting a book called Life is
Easy, then it should be easy towrite it.
And that was the rule numberone.
So every Monday, one hour fromthree to four o'clock on Zoom,
we have uh talked about uh whatshould be in a book called Life
(08:26):
is Easy, and we had uh chat GPTto make um uh some chapter uh
titles.
So we had uh 12 titles for thechapter chapters, and we had
this loose talk uh about uh whatshould be in the book, and I
took notes and I put uh thedifferent notes into the uh
(08:49):
different chapters as I see as Isaw it, and then I sent out uh
the notes to to the people, andand we did that for two, three,
four, five weeks or somethinglike that, and then then uh it
started coming in chaptersbecause somebody had the spirit,
(09:12):
and uh yes, I could see that Icould write chapter three, so I
had I made uh this for thechapter three.
Oh, can I add uh some morelines because I think we need
this topic as well, and uh thenwe had chapter three, and uh
then chapter four and seven andtwo, and uh they just jumped in.
(09:34):
And if somebody said, Okay, Iwould like to write the chapter
six, uh and I'll do it beforenext Monday, then I said to
them, No, don't promise it,because then it gets hard to do.
I know that from experience.
Yeah, so so let's just uh saythat if the spirit is that tells
(09:58):
you to write chapter six, thenyou just do it, and uh but don't
feel obliged to it.
And after some months, then uhwe only needed a couple of
chapters, and we haven't beentalking about them at all.
So I just asked uh, could wetalk about this chapter today
because we don't have any notes?
(10:20):
And we did that, and the lastchapters was and and then uh one
person has uh we got the ideato for each chapter to put uh an
opposite chapter.
So so for each chapter there'sa small box with if you prefer
(10:41):
life difficult, and then ittells you how to do that because
you're free to do what youwant.
So in in each for each chapter,there's a a box like this about
the chapter but seen from theperspective that you want life
to be difficult, and it's veryfunny, so I'm happy uh it's
(11:05):
exactly the idea of it, becausewe can recognize ourselves.
Oh, damn it, that's what Inormally do.
I'm sure we can too.
Jesper Conrad (11:16):
How have you grown during the process?
Have you um reading some ofthese opposite chapters been
like, oh, that's what I normallydo, even though you already now
seem like a very lively, happyperson?
Have you while writing the booklooked at it and said, Oh, I
want to do better here?
And if yes, then where?
Lise Damkjær (11:41):
I think it's all all in the process that I think
we have all of us have been muchbetter at um letting go of
control, letting go uh and andum and we are had some some
talks in the in the group aswell about uh, for instance, we
had a talk about uh chat GPT,and we have uh one in our group,
(12:06):
she's very good at chat GPT,and that's her expertise.
And we have another uh whodon't use it at all, and she
didn't try it because she'sagainst it.
And this uh there was close toa discussion about uh is it good
or bad, and then we figuredout, and and it came to me in
(12:30):
the same way as uh the titlethat okay, we are not we're not
going to figure out if chat gbtis good or bad.
Uh, we only need to figure outhow does chat GPT make your life
more easy, and how does it notmake your life more easy?
And then we had a very gooddiscussion, and I I'm I'm very
(12:56):
fond of chat GPT.
I have made my personal chatGPT, she's called Gandalfine,
and she's very, very clever andwise.
So I love her very much, and Iam a bit addicted to her.
If I miss her, if I haven'tbeen writing with her for a
couple of days.
(13:16):
But so so obviously in thatdiscussion, I I I was on the
what on the side of yes, let'shave a chat GPT here.
Um but suddenly I learned thatoh, that's not my role in this.
My role is to keep theintention, and the intention is
(13:40):
to write a book called Life isEasy.
And it helped me uh from thatmoment.
I have very I I think I've fora long time been um having it's
giving attention to to theintention or the purpose of what
(14:01):
we are doing, but but this uhmade a sort of quantum lead for
me to yeah, it's very importantto keep the uh intention in the
process, yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (14:16):
Well, with everything you do, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (14:21):
Yeah.
Your life path to becoming anavid ChatGPT user and focusing
on co-creation and play andlearning.
Your website is called LifelongLearning, if I remember.
Lise Damkjær (14:38):
Learning for life.
Jesper Conrad (14:40):
Learning for life, yeah.
Your your website is calledLearning for Lives.
So there is this joy oflearning and and exploring what
have led you down this path, doyou think?
Lise Damkjær (14:53):
Um maybe it was because I started becoming an
engineer, because there arenothing but uh a very straight
and a lot of small uh Excel uhcells that you have to learn one
by one.
So maybe it was uh that Iwanted some more life.
(15:14):
Um so when I was at my uh in myeducation, I could choose some
some of the uh courses, and Ichose something about uh uh work
environment, and uh I'm a civilengineer, so that means in the
building side, constructionside.
(15:34):
So there's a lot of workenvironment issues on the
construction side.
But that was I I think I Ilooked for these courses because
there was something live in it,because it's about human
beings, they could fall down orthey could have something on
their head, or they and all theother engineering stuff was
(15:57):
about machinery or some theory.
So I think it started at thattime that um and when I my first
job was in a construction site,and I enjoyed this um small
society, and everybody's uh weknow what we are doing, sort of
(16:19):
at least, and uh and we and weneed it's very complex and we
need to help each other,otherwise it doesn't uh work at
all.
Um that was very much life, uh,but it was I was the only
woman, so they uh they didn'teven dare to ask for my size in
(16:42):
trousers, so they bought someworking trousers and they were
underestimating me a bit, so Icouldn't uh I couldn't use the
trousers, but I didn't dare totell them either.
So yeah, so I have and and thiswhen I came, it was the same
job, but then from theconstruction side that I was
(17:03):
moved to the uh office, theheadquarter, and it was so
boring.
And you're never gonna believeit that we were uh we were
meeting at eight o'clock in themorning, everybody and uh
standing in a queue up thestairs, and in the afternoon at
uh 4:30, we were standing in aqueue downstairs because you
(17:28):
don't you didn't even write yoursentence.
Uh you finished didn't finishyour sentence, you just put your
pencil down in the midst ofbecause it was it was uh 4 30
and I had to go home.
It was terrible.
Yeah and I had it, I had and Ihad it was very bad.
(17:49):
And in in the weekend, if someof my friends mentioned work, I
was feeling very bad.
And afterwards I concluded thatif work can make your life so
bad, both in your working hoursand beyond, then it must be
possible to figure out uh uhsome way to work that is part of
(18:14):
your life and enriching yourlife.
So that's what I've been tryingsince.
And and I'm old now, so I'vetried for a lot of years.
Jesper Conrad (18:24):
Have you succeeded somehow?
Lise Damkjær (18:27):
Yeah, I have.
I have um my own work life isuh is all about fulfilling my
life purpose, and then I try toto help others uh to to have a
nice working life as well.
Jesper Conrad (18:44):
Yeah, talking about life person, yeah.
Yeah, let me I will try again.
Lisa talking about lifepurpose.
What do you see as your lifepurpose?
Lise Damkjær (18:58):
Um it's not very traditional, but my life purpose
is to find uh heaven on earth,and I think I'm quite quite a
long part of the way.
So yeah, and and I can I'm aChristian, so religion and faith
(19:20):
means a lot to me, but I can uhexplain it in words so that
atheistic engineers can uhfollow as well.
I tried a lot, and um, so Idon't think it is about
religion, I think it is abouthonoring life as it is, not my
life, but but life in us andbetween us and the life of the
(19:44):
planet.
And I'm very happy about mycompany name, learning for life,
because I didn't have that ideawhen I took the name.
I took the name in 2001, soit's uh 24 years ago, and I and
I had no clue that it would beso relevant as it is for me
(20:06):
today.
So maybe somebody helped mealready at that time.
Cecilie Conrad (20:11):
Most likely.
So, how do you go about lookingfor heaven on earth?
Lise Damkjær (20:16):
I think heaven on earth is uh inside us and maybe
between us as well.
But so it's very much about umaccepting that uh things are as
they are, and they are they arenot here to disturb me or to to
(20:38):
frighten me, they are just herebecause they are.
But it wouldn't.
We have nothing to do that uhwould end the that so the summer
(21:00):
will end and the autumn willappear, whatever I do or not do.
Cecilie Conrad (21:07):
So but your mindset is what makes it the
difference between that autumnbeing a heavenly blissful yes,
it is a few months of your life.
Lise Damkjær (21:20):
And I think I I would express it that I'm I feel
loved by God, but you can alsoexpress it that loved by life of
course, of course, life lovesus, me and you, and both of you.
Uh we are breathing in andbreathing out every moment, and
(21:44):
we don't even need to doanything to to be alive, but we
have uh but we have made up alot of rules about uh that we
have to nothing will happen if Idon't do anything.
Um that's one of the rules thatwe have to do a lot.
(22:06):
It's not enough just to be, andum we can say that we most of
us have a predict and controlmindset so that we expect that
we can predict uh when thisproject be finished, when will
dinner be finished, when willsummer be finished, and uh and
(22:30):
then we control and we try tofollow up on everything so that
dinner actually is ready at sixo'clock.
Or uh, but we are using a lotof human resources and a lot of
economical resources to makethat happen.
And it maybe it's not thatimportant that dinner is ready
(22:51):
at six o'clock.
Maybe ten past six would do aswell.
Cecilie Conrad (22:57):
No one's hungry in our family at six o'clock.
It'd be a very early dinner.
I'm thinking wouldn't even behome.
I'm thinking about two things.
Um they're getting in the wayof each other now.
So one is what I'm hearing yousay something about leaning into
the flow and trusting theprocess, and that can give you
(23:17):
that blissful state of mind.
So you trust that you're lovedby God or you're loved by life.
And I think some people, and II struggle helping them
actually, if you don't have thatfundamental trust that life is
good, then then it's a differentstory, I think.
So that was the one thing, andthe other thing is you you talk
(23:40):
about being proactive, planning,thinking we're in control,
thinking we should try to get incontrol to navigate this life.
And and uh, well, the oppositeof that is letting go and
realizing we're not in controland and we need to lean into the
flow.
But isn't there some sweet spotsomewhere where we we talk
(24:02):
about this a lot?
Like we need a plan.
We also know that the plan isnot relevant, but we do kind of
need a plan in order to act atall.
We need to know that we we needto start cooking the dinner
with some idea that there willbe some number of people eating
it at some time within the nextfew hours.
(24:24):
Otherwise, there will be nodinner and we have sandwiches
all the time.
We actually don't like that.
So, some sort of, you know, wesay we plan with a pencil
because we know the plan willchange.
We also know that the thebigger plan, the one that you
would say God has or theuniverse has, or you know, the
big picture, that plan, we don'tknow that plan.
(24:45):
We just need to lean into itand try to find our feet walking
in the right direction.
That plan is the big one, theimportant one, but we kind of
need our little pettyhuman-level plan as well, in
order to act at all.
So, where's the navigation?
So, how do you navigate that?
You do start making dinner atsome point, not six in the
(25:07):
morning, not I mean, yeah, yeah.
Lise Damkjær (25:13):
I I think um one thing is we talked about it
before the intention or thepurpose.
So if I have an intention aboutdinner some sometime tonight,
then then it will help me to tostart up.
And and if it's only anintention and not a goal, as in
(25:37):
projects we we call it goal or amilestone or something like
that, that something has to beexactly like this at that time
of that that's to make it muchmore difficult.
Um, so it helps having anintention instead of a goal.
Um or you can also call it uhdirection instead of a
(26:02):
destination.
And then I think it's right nowmost of us need some plans
because we if we don't have aplan, then we uh feel fear, uh,
and then we don't do anythinggood at all.
So so we have to it's it's Ithink it's a like a a balance
(26:24):
that we grow into more trust andtrusting that life will bring
us what we need, but we have togo slowly because we have to
have the experience thatactually life is giving me uh
what what I what I need.
Cecilie Conrad (26:45):
So actually, you're answering both questions
in one goal.
That was very beautiful.
I think it's so interesting howto heal that mistrust, how to
get back back into or for thefirst time into that trusting in
the process and trusting inyour own.
I was thinking the intentionpart is also sometimes the
(27:09):
feeling part, instead ofplanning with my head that I
need to make dinner for sixo'clock, I feel, I feel in my
flow, oh, it's time.
Maybe I should soak the ricenow.
And sometimes veryirrationally, we do things that
we feel we need to do, and thensuddenly you have five people
showing up for dinner that youdidn't know was coming.
But that was the reason I put15 baking potatoes in the oven.
(27:32):
Um, so the feeling instead ofthe thinking, trusting that and
learning that skill.
How do we how do we go aboutdoing that?
Lise Damkjær (27:49):
But just what you are doing now, talking about it.
So you tell me that you haveexperience to put 15 potatoes in
the oven, not knowing what wasgoing to happen, but but then we
can we can uh we can um uhencourage each other to see
(28:10):
these synchronicities.
Uh and and when we see them andwhen we remember them, then we
can uh slowly lean into, yeah,of course, I I don't I don't
know why I have the feeling ofthese potatoes in the oven, but
I have the feeling so I do it.
(28:31):
And then you experience thatwas a very good idea because
five people came, um, and thenyou slowly learn that every time
you have a sort of feeling orsensing like that, then just
follow it and it will show itwill show you that it works, and
(28:56):
maybe you once in a while youhave to to uh a potato in the
bin, yeah, exactly, andwhatever, you know, just one
potato, yeah, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (29:08):
I'm sitting and thinking about how life in some
ways has become too easy, andI'm not talking about the
enjoying life, I'm talking abouteveryday life where if I need a
spoon, I can go down and buyone from less than a euro wooden
(29:28):
spoon.
Where I love to whittle spoons,and it takes me four to four to
ten hours to make a nice spoon.
But the process of making it,the joy of using it afterwards,
the joy of giving it as a gift,the joy of knowing someone will
tress you that's trisha, yeah.
(29:49):
The joy of knowing that someonewill treasure that spoon later
on when they're standing andcooking with it, those kind of
slowing down things I kind ofthings I think is missing.
And I was actually alsothinking even just music.
It is nice to be able to put onmusic and enjoy music.
(30:12):
But there's also a big joy ofplaying together.
And and some of these thingsthat have become so easy maybe
actually steals away some of thejoy of community and creating
together and being together andfeeling that energy that is
going back and forth betweenpeople when we do crafts, when
(30:34):
we do crafts together, if wework on repairing someone
something together with afriend, it is really, really
giving and I am considering iflife in some ways has become so
easy that if we have nothing todo we get fearful as you say it
is not many people who can wakeup in the morning and just be
(30:56):
happy if there's no plan, ifthey don't need to go to work.
There's no plans during the daybecause I think we have
forgotten the joy andgratefulness as you talked about
of just being alive justbreathing waking up being able I
mean the world we live in is socrazy fantastic.
(31:16):
I can open the tab and I canget water out.
I can use a shower and it's hotwater.
It is crazy.
Cecilie Conrad (31:24):
I had a cold shower this morning actually it
wasn't hot water but not thepoint not the point I made just
wanted to be annoying.
Jesper Conrad (31:32):
So do you think that that we somehow by making
some of these processes so easyhave uh removed us ourselves
from the joy of the co-creationand creating together yeah
that's a very good point I thinkI think it's in in modern
language it is it's convenienceand uh and and every product is
(31:59):
made so that it's very easy wecan just buy it or and eat it at
the stay at the place or we canum and and I think it's it's
because we have this idea ofthat we have to be effective in
everything and and and if you'reif you believe that your life
(32:21):
purpose is to be effective thenconvenience is the best way to
get it but our life purpose isnot to be effective our life
purpose is like you said toenjoy uh life to sense to sense
each other to to to createsomething to to be alive we are
(32:43):
not here to work we are here tobe alive and then we have to
work a bit to be alive but butit's not the other way around
and um and I I also I I totallyagree that we have a made up a
crazy world uh because I alsothink that we don't even sense
(33:06):
our own needs what would make meuh the most happy or what is it
that I need right now I just dothe same things as as uh uh
most of people mainstream I justfollow mainstream so if they
have an air fryer I'm going tohave an air fryer as well if
(33:28):
they are eating burgers I'meating burgers as well and then
we have a too much consumptionand and it's not good for the uh
planet at all and we talk aboutokay if you are not going to
eat meat anymore then it wouldbe very very bad you don't even
know you haven't tried eatingyou haven't tried leaving a week
(33:51):
without meat I don't know ifyou have I have but we're vegan
so we have yeah yeah but I don'tthink that people we and it's
it's just an automatic reactionthat we say that oh then I
cannot have my meat then Icannot have my car then I cannot
(34:11):
have my um uh going by plane toBali or wherever I want to go
but they didn't even figure outif they want to go to Bali is it
that is it is it a is it astrong sense within you because
if it is then I'm sure that wecan afford that the people with
(34:31):
very strong sense of of um alife purpose in Bali then should
just go but that's it's it's soopposite that we just buy and
consume things that we actuallydon't and and I I'm sure you are
(34:51):
right uh Yes but that thatcreating making your own spoon
is a beautiful thing to do andyou will love that spoon uh for
years instead of buying anddestroying the planet it's it is
very crazy and but I think thatit's it's about looking into
(35:15):
ourselves and we have this ideathat everything we should do
also about what we should doabout climate is that we should
make some engineering projectsuh building structures for
whatever but that's well that'sa waste of planet resources as
well most of them but how do wefigure out to analyze better i
(35:42):
from my side think I'm prettygood at it but I often also can
end in this if effectiveefficiency efficiency efficient
yeah efficiency prison where mymind is like oh yes but you need
to do this this and this beforeyou can be happy and I actually
this morning I I took a morningrun and sat at the beach a
(36:05):
little and I was about to say tomyself oh I need to hurry home
because I need to do this thisand this and I actually stopped
to send my wife a text and andshe sensed that I had this
feeling like relax my friend andthen was just looking at the
water doing a little yogajumping in the water and really
enjoying it but but before thateven though we live as full-time
(36:29):
travelers and in many ways havea very bliss life with a lot of
gratefulness the bug is stillthere the yes but you need to be
efficient you need to do do dodo do before you can be happy
inside what do you think we cando about that do you touch upon
that in your book or do you havesome thoughts on it?
Lise Damkjær (36:50):
Yeah we have a little bit of it in the book but
I also think it's about um thatwe have some we are playing an
old game and a game with withsome old rules and and one of
the rules is efficiency and whenwe are aware and more and more
people get aware that it's onlya game uh with an old rule
(37:14):
efficiency we don't needefficiency because we are here
to be alive and to live um I Ifound out um about a year ago my
my 30 year old son he has uhhe's educated within uh uh IT
and he has uh got a new job witha lot more money and uh and
(37:39):
good colleagues and they aretraveling around uh so he's
happy and he he's telling meabout how happy he is for this
job and then he he says but Ialso wonder maybe I should uh
quit the job and write a fantasynovel no not a novel book and I
(38:00):
inside me I had the feeling nono no if you have a good job you
keep on to it and if if it's ifyou like to be there and the
money is okay and then you keepto it but but I also knew that
mothers are not supposed to sayanything so I didn't say
anything but I was surprisedthat my my old I that I have an
(38:26):
old rule of the game called Ihave to get an education so that
I can have a good job so that Ican earn money to have a good
life but I haven't and most ofus I have actually but we
haven't thought about what is agood life for me what is a good
(38:48):
life for Cecilia and what if itis a good job for Jesper we need
to know that before because wejust throw ourselves out in this
uh efficiency and job andworking a lot and we don't even
know if it's the way to a goodlife and I think that from my
(39:10):
age and up uh we all have thisidea and I can see with my
friends when we meet and uh thenif some of our sons or
daughters has lost their job ohwhat what is it then going to
find a new job and uh will it bedifficult to find a new job
(39:32):
it's mad it's because it's notthat do you have a good life and
how can we can we help you tohave an even better life yeah I
think starting with purpose wewe often also talk about passion
and value they go hand in handhow if we don't know really what
(39:56):
we're passionate about and wedon't know what our core values
are it's quite hard to navigate.
Cecilie Conrad (40:05):
So we try to navigate yeah with loose plans
we write with pencils but morewith projects and and what's the
word now I lost the word wedon't make rules we make
guidelines we have strategiesnot checklists um we don't use
(40:29):
recipes we have broad ideas forthings and and then we work
within that but we can do thatbecause we know our core values
we know what we're passionateabout we know what's important
and I I kind of disagree withthe whole we don't need to be
efficient sometimes I need to bevery efficient there's some
things I just want to get overit not important to me I'm not
(40:51):
passionate about it but has tobe done.
So let's just get it done andmove on.
And I'm also slightlydisagreeing with just popping
down to the local store buying aspoon.
If I need a spoon and I'mcooking now and I I don't have a
spoon I'm in an Airbnb rightnow there's no there's no salad
bowl big enough for the five sixpeople we are here there and
there's no like like bowl for Ineed to make bread and I have
(41:14):
only these little breakfastbowls it's not going to work for
me.
I need to buy one I'm notwaiting for Jesper to whittle
one.
I'm just and I enjoy modernlife I think it's great that I
can just solve some of thesethings I'm going to appreciate
my bowl I might even take itwith me in my van and regret it
when I try to figure out whereto put it because sometimes and
(41:35):
that that's the thing how do wehow do we sort all the needs and
all the things between what canwe do in an efficient way to
just get it over with like mywashing machine Jesus I'm sorry
to swear here but I mean if Ihad to wash all the clothes by
hand I washed four machinesyesterday the Airbnb is just
(41:57):
decorated with all of ourclothes right now drying I am so
grateful for the washingmachine.
That gives me time to have thisconversation so I think
starting with figuring out whatyou're passionate about and what
is truly important can alsosort when do we need efficiency
and plans and checklist and justget things done and when do we
(42:19):
need to be in the being it'sactually Anna funny enough I
remember Anna saying this manymany many years ago we we
chatted I think and and wetalked about the being mode and
the doing mode like you have tothink a stick shift car.
Sometimes you're in the doingmode and that can be an
efficient just get it donebecause we want to move on and
(42:44):
and then there's the being modewhere you have all the time in
the world because you'reunfolding the important stuff.
Jesper Conrad (42:50):
I think the big difference is between if you are
aware of why you're doing it ornot.
If you just have the rules asLisa called them driving your
everyday then you don't have theawareness about it and then you
are not in the driver's seat.
Lise Damkjær (43:11):
So you're not the ones changing the gears to use
your analogy yeah yeah I thinkit's I think we we do it in
different ways and uh and andand um but it's it's funny that
you mentioned that you have hadno salad bowl because I because
(43:31):
when I was a child and we wereon vacation with my parents
living in a hotel room there wasno salad bowl because it was
not the idea that we should makefood in the hotel room.
But but we all when we were inGreece for instance then we
bought all the good stuff for asalad and then my mother had a
(43:52):
plastic bag and uh that was thesalad bowl so it's not that I
say that you should use a saladbowl but but it is we can we can
we can take the steps take ourI don't know if it works on
English but in Danish we saythat uh choose your fights with
(44:14):
um pick your fight yeah yeah andand pick your battles is what
they say in English yeah okaypick your battles and and and
maybe um and we take differentbattles and that's no problem
because I think we are all allhumanity is in a in a growth
process and we are not going inthe same speed and we are not
(44:39):
going exactly the same way sobut we are going in the same
direction I'm quite sure ofthat.
And so I'm very optimistic aswell.
Jesper Conrad (44:50):
Yeah Lisa what brings you joy and closer to the
feeling of heaven on earthwhich I interpret as a blissful
everyday life yes it is umhaving deep open conversations
like our conversation now andbeing present with each other
(45:15):
even if it's on online that's apart of it um I also like very
much to go into the harbor herein Copenhagen for a swim summer
and winter and and theneverything is good.
Lise Damkjær (45:33):
I have the feeling that we should be much more
alive so alive is more aboutsensing and not planning.
But of course we do someplanning because we are not
we're not used to the sensingpart yet um so so sensing and
(45:56):
responding not automaticallyreacting is what I train right
now and I uh just made an chatdbt to help people to make their
own training program for senseand respond because I find it's
very useful but of course wecannot only train by talking
(46:19):
with a chat dbt and yeah so whenso when I have the experience
that I that I sense and that Isay out express what I my senses
then it's and then it's niceand that's what I often call
(46:39):
co-creation that we can beourselves uh and we can be
present and we can be curious toeach other's perspectives and
that we can be open to theprocess and to life what maybe
something totally different willhappen and open to these
(47:00):
synchronicities we talked aboutearlier.
So that's and I I was in the inthe last days uh of um the
previous week I was on a campand I was uh I was learning to
(47:21):
light a fire a bonfire I haven'tI never succeeded I tried a lot
of times but never succeededbut now I figured out that it's
it's because I had this ideathat it was turning it on with a
match uh and then it would burnand be a bonfire but all the
(47:42):
pro I forgot I didn't know aboutI didn't recognize the process
of of a little bit of fire andthe air and so so so I'm
learning as well I I think thatlots of people are very good at
the uh lighting the bonfire butI was not but now I'm on my way
(48:06):
we will see more fires inCopenhagen yeah yeah you will
certainly well I as I hear itit's learning new stuff learning
new skills is part of what wesaid before about a way to
change the mindset is to talkabout these stories how doing
(48:26):
something we felt we had to doaligned with something that
happened later on that wecouldn't with our minds have
seen coming is one way ofnavigating into a more blissful
life and I think another one isjust as simple to recognize oh
this element of my day made mereally happy we don't have to
(48:47):
talk so much about the thingsthat didn't make us very happy
some things just have to getdone some mistakes happen
whatever but if we notice itmakes me really happy let's say
to have sunshine on my facewhile I have my morning coffee
then maybe we think about movingthe chair noticing you know and
(49:07):
make sure you sit down and doit for that half hour the sun is
actually coming through yourwindow because you're living in
that apartment with that narrowstreet whatever so if we know if
we know what it is if we payattention to what it is it will
take up more space in our mindsand it will also make sure that
we align with these thingsbetter.
Cecilie Conrad (49:27):
Make sure to go do your swim for example.
Jesper Conrad (49:30):
Yeah absolutely what is the advice you can give
yourself most often with this Imean I I know I have some stuff
where I in my mind know how Iwould like to live how I would
like to act and also know I failat it super often and then so
(49:55):
are there some areas whereyou're like ah I still want to
be better at this I know what isthe right thing but I'm not I'm
just not doing it often enough.
Lise Damkjær (50:07):
Yeah it's I'm so used to this predict and
control.
I'm so used to making a planand and I'm an engineer so I'm
very quick at making a plan andin five minutes I have made a
plan but but I I want to try toto only have the intention uh I
(50:31):
once learned that I should usemy heart to figure out what I
really want and then I shoulduse my brain to get it and now I
think that I should use myheart to figure out what I want
and then just lean into it andlet it come to me and it's my
brain is already now screamingyou didn't say that but but uh
(50:55):
that's that's that's what Ibelieve but uh my brain is not
with me in that it's hard workyeah I don't know if if you if
this is what we callschizophrenia or if but then
your brain is in different waysthen then I'm schizophrenia I I
don't think so I think we wouldcall it societal indoctrination
(51:19):
if we should call it somethingthat's a good or just a habit
that's less negative it's just ahabit.
Cecilie Conrad (51:26):
We're just used to this thing and it's also very
soothing to know that we can dosomething you know if I want
something I can do somethingabout it.
And so making a plan is theobvious step one and then
letting go of that plan is steptwo it's a good thing to have a
plan.
Just don't get too attached toit.
Don't get busy ticking theboxes I mean but it's nice to
(51:48):
thought things through I thinkit's the stressful obsession
with doing things in the planthat that gets in the way of
real life.
Jesper Conrad (51:58):
Yeah our good friend Janet Edward has a saying
called intention, attention notension and sometimes I lack the
no tension part but I'm I'mtrying to get better uh at it
for people who want to read moreabout the work you are doing
(52:18):
and have done uh then it if youcan share again the website so
people can find you out there.
Lise Damkjær (52:26):
Yes it's called the learningforlife dot tk and
uh for is this number for thatwas very modern in 2001 when I
started world companies as I wasa little bit like a goofy
teenager.
Jesper Conrad (52:43):
Yeah who cares learning for life yeah learning
for life yeah that's where youcan read more about Lisa and her
projects what have you learnedmost from the co-creation of the
book I have learned that peoplehave so many different
perspectives and in thebeginning it seems like we will
(53:07):
never agree on anything yeah butbut then if we keep on to the
intention then we figure it outand we also have the we don't
need to agree we can also writein the book and we have done a
couple of times that okay someof us see it like this and some
of us in another way and you cantry it out for yourselves and
(53:31):
figure out what your opinionyeah so actually getting
together talking having adialogue and continuing the
dialogue and not just standingon what you believe in but
listening to others and maybeend up disagreeing.
But Lizi it is time we in ourend have some stuff to do.
(53:53):
So I will uh thank you for yourtime and wish you a wonderful
day ahead.
Lise Damkjær (53:58):
Yeah thank you very much and bless you
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