July 23, 2025 • 53 mins
We sit down with Heidi and Andrew Schrum, who are about to leave home and begin travelling full-time with their two young children.
They ask us what we wish we’d known at the beginning, and we talk through everything from reluctant kids and screen time to preparation that doesn’t help and the emotional crash that often comes six months into travel.
We also get into how to parent while unschooling—without stepping back too far—and how public perception shifts when you reframe unschooling as world-schooling.
This is a direct, unscripted conversation about what it actually takes to live nomadically as a family.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:00):
So today we are together with Heidi and Andrew
Schrum, and the reason we arehere is because Cecilia and I
had been doing some talks inDanish and I wrote about them
and Heidi reached out to me andsaid oh, are you doing some in
English?
At some point it could be goodto ask some questions, and then
I thought why not invite them ona podcast episode?
(00:23):
And then we just take all thequestions you have right now.
So first of all, a warm welcome.
It is nice to see you both.
Heidi Schrum (00:31):
Nice to see you guys too.
We are about to embark on ourown traveling journey in about a
month.
We have two kids five and sevenand we've been following you
guys for about a month.
We have two kids five and sevenand we've been following you
guys for about a year now andreally enjoy all the podcasts
that you guys put out, and soyou're also unschoolers, but
(00:55):
also just getting to the pointwhere we're getting more
questions asked to us abouteducation with our kids, and it
it's has become a little more ofa challenge, and so we're just
trying to like figure out ourwording and how to explain our
life and us embarking on thisfull-time travel.
(01:16):
There's lots of questionscoming from other people and,
since following you guys, it'sbeen like a huge inspiration for
us, and our first question iswhat is some general information
you guys could give us, like us?
Andrew Schrum (01:33):
just first starting out, something that
maybe took you five years tofigure out through your journey.
Or, um, you know something youwish you would have thought
about before you left.
Or you learned along the wayand you're like, oh, I wish I
would have done this differently, anything like that.
Jesper Conrad (01:50):
Oh, I have a good one for that and it is tied a
little into the whole all thequestions.
First I experienced thequestions change a little.
Or what changed a little whenwe started traveling.
Was this move from oh so it's alittle weird, you guys are
(02:11):
unschooling what's going on andyou're homeschooling to how
fascinating that you're going ona journey with your kids.
We always wanted that ourselves.
That changed.
First I was a little mesmerizedby it.
I was like, but hey, it's thesame thing I'm doing.
Why is it all of a suddeninteresting now before you
(02:34):
thought it was weird?
But I think it is because it iseasier for people to say to
themselves I cannot do this,whereas sometimes the lifestyle
we have led have been a tone inpeople's eyes where they kind of
can have felt that our lifechoices were somehow diminishing
(03:02):
what they did with their life.
And for us it hasn't been thatgoal at all.
We are not living our life tosay to other people you should
live differently.
We live our life because welike it.
But one thing I wish I couldhave done differently is that I
think I need to start used a lotof time explaining myself, a
(03:25):
lot of time not talking down,kind of finding all that was bad
with the culture we were in thesociety and saying to people
praising the unschooling choiceand the world schooling choice,
by talking negatively about theschools and to school your kids,
(03:45):
where I today actually try tofind a difference between.
Is it just a polite question?
You know, normally when peopleyou say, hey, what are you doing
?
Oh, you're traveling, oh, thatsounds exciting.
It is sometimes just small talkand not an invitation to talk
(04:06):
for three hours.
Sometimes I have talked forthree hours and be part of that
was to strengthen my ownarguments and thoughts.
Where today I'm a little morechilled, I would rather hear
about other people and talk withthem about their thoughts.
And then I had to claimunschooling is the best in the
(04:28):
world and if you put yourchildren to school, you
shouldn't, et cetera, et cetera.
Can I say?
Cecilie Conrad (04:34):
something.
Yeah, please.
It's clear that world schoolingis less frowned upon than
unschooling.
People are very overwhelmed byoh, that's an adventure.
I wish I could do that.
So it changes.
And also, if you don't mindthat people make up their own
ideas about what you're doing, Imean, they can project all
(04:55):
sorts of things into the wordworld schooling and you don't
have to you know, they don'thave to all understand.
For the first I don't, maybethree or four years even we were
unschooling, based inCopenhagen, the same city as my
in-laws, my mother-in-law.
She thought I was sitting atthe dining table with the kids
three hours a day with a beltand some books, and I didn't
(05:18):
correct her.
She was happy, felt safe.
I was happy, felt safe.
No one got hurt.
I was happy, felt safe, no onegot hurt.
I didn't laugh at her.
She never asked, and when shefigured out they had been home
educated for so long, sherealized that they were doing
good.
So it was just the form wasdifferent.
So yeah, but I think I'manswering a different question
(05:40):
than the one you asked.
And the one you asked Iunderstood as what, what would
you wish you had known, or what,what have you figured out that
could be explained now so wedon't have to go make the same
mistake.
I think the main thing is thatin preparing for the change from
(06:02):
a home-based life to a nomadiclife, there's a lot of thought
process, and you know you thinkabout it so much and you imagine
what it could be like and allkinds of things from water
bottles to higher education.
You know it's all going onthere and, in reality, life
changes all the time.
You know, you can't know and Ican't know what you need two
(06:26):
years from now and what willlook like for you you would have
to come up with what most sense.
All the time.
You're freeing yourself from arestriction of having to stay in
one place or being dependent ona house and and you're you're
going to have to grow some.
You know you're going to haveto grow some.
You know you're going to haveto be able to hold some
(06:47):
insecurity and you're going tohave to solve a lot of problems
you didn't see coming.
Not necessarily big anddevastating problems, just
situations, okay.
Okay, that one I don't know.
I mean, and can you prepare?
No, you can't prepare for that.
You can prepare for beingflexible, know being okay.
I'm going to have to solve someproblems that I can't imagine
(07:09):
right now.
Not hard, I've never had likedevastating anything I'm just
saying when it unfolds,everything changes.
So I think it's a waste of timeto try to prepare so much for it
, because your kids will growand they have personalities.
And you will grow and you havepersonalities and you will meet
(07:33):
people and you will fall in lovewith places and you will hate
other places and and you willsometimes book something for
three months and hate stayingthere, maybe even leave.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat can happen and I needed to
buy a bus to feel secure.
You need to get out of there,you need to get started and, and
(07:53):
we need very much needed tosell that bus again.
The bus was a I mean, I don'tknow it.
No, no, no it was a mistake,but it was a ticket out more
than it was a traveling vehicle.
Yeah, and, and it's veryexpensive to get out yeah, but I
.
Jesper Conrad (08:08):
That's why I say that's what I needed for my, for
my security in it.
What I've learned during thelast five years is that's
basically what cecilia is sayingoh yeah, but the first five,
seven, oh yeah.
We have traveled a long timenow.
No, what I've learned is thatit is really good to have wi-fi.
(08:29):
I have the wi-fi everywhere.
The styling is good when it'saligned, but it's also when I
look back at how we traveledthen I think, yeah, do you
remember your big first wi-fisolution the panic solution
where I had five different cardswith 20 devices.
Cecilie Conrad (08:52):
Yeah, I remember that okay oh, oh yeah I mean,
that's actually a story in thewrong way.
Yeah, I'm not knowing whatyou're venturing into, trying to
prepare and just mega failingoh, oh, I mega failed, so I
bought a satellite Doing itwould have been better.
Jesper Conrad (09:09):
A big satellite that cost a lot of money.
I never used it.
It cost a lot of money and whenI was ready to put it out, I
was thinking about where are weactually as people?
Oh, we are where other peopleare.
One thing that is common forwhere people are is that there's
(09:30):
mobile coverage, and if I'm ina place without mobile coverage
it's because I do not want towork.
Only place in all of Europe andMexico and the States I've had
shitty Wi-Fi on the mobile is inUK.
Cecilie Conrad (09:49):
It's over.
Jesper Conrad (09:50):
I bought last summer.
I bought the styling in UKbecause I couldn't understand
why they have so shitty mobilecoverage.
Cecilie Conrad (09:59):
Actually.
Jesper Conrad (10:00):
Now we know.
Cecilie Conrad (10:02):
To be fair.
Yeah, I mean England is growingon me.
I actually love England.
I think they To be fair.
Yeah, I mean England is growingon me.
I actually love England.
I think they're great over here.
Maybe they can even have theirgreat in their name.
Jesper Conrad (10:10):
Oh yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (10:12):
Covering was really bad.
It is really bad over here, itjust is.
The mobile covering is reallybad In a lot of cases, even in
the big cities.
It shocks us every time we gohere.
But the real reason was I wasgoing on, and on and on and on
and on and on about I wanted togo to Scotland and because the
(10:33):
covering is so bad even downhere, even inside London, Jesper
was like panicking we cannot goup to Scotland.
That's too risky.
There will be no Wi-Fi.
We have to take our money.
It's fair enough, so it's notfor.
Andrew Schrum (10:45):
Netflix, you know it's too risky.
Cecilie Conrad (10:45):
There will be no Wi-Fi.
We have to take our money.
Andrew Schrum (10:47):
It's fair enough.
So it's not for Netflix, youknow, it's for work.
Cecilie Conrad (10:48):
So yeah, so we bought the Starlink After a day.
Oh man, we can drizzle littlestories here.
So one day we wake up in aforest and it's really epically
beautiful because Englandactually really is it's lush and
there's the sea stream and thesoil is nice to walk on with our
bare feet and we've just beenon an amazing festival.
(11:09):
We're really tired, overwhelmed, happy, grateful, and we're
just going to spend the day inthis forest, you know, coming
down after a big, big, hugefestival.
Jesper Conrad (11:19):
But I have a meeting.
Cecilie Conrad (11:19):
And yes, but just have a simple call.
It's not a big deal.
You know he can work.
We can walk a little bit withthe dogs.
It's nice, except, yeah,there's just shite covering.
He cannot work so we have toleave.
He's panicking.
We're packing up really quickly.
Everything is chaos.
When we don't do it nicely inthe van, it becomes very, very
(11:41):
chaotic.
It's not like there's no grad.
Either it's good or it'shorrible.
So it became horrible and wehad to drive real fast because
he had this meeting.
It was a quite.
All meetings are important.
You're having a meeting withanother person and you're you
know you should show up.
So yeah, anyway, we drive tothe nearest city happens to be
what's the name of it.
It's even a joke in a show stokeand we part at needles parking
(12:08):
and it's just, I mean the vibethere, it's just it was terrible
it can be worse, but it wasreally bad and I was like fuck
it.
And we bought the stanley thesame day yeah and then oh.
Jesper Conrad (12:20):
But then we drove to scotland where it was
mountains, mountains andwaterfalls and I had top Wi-Fi
and I was just so happy.
Cecilie Conrad (12:29):
You were the happiest?
No, but really it was thathaving to leave that forest that
day was just no.
Jesper Conrad (12:37):
But to sum it up, because we talk a lot even on
just one question sorry, but itis that you can think so much
before you can be so afraid, youcan have so many insecurities
about what will happen.
It's just life.
It will be okay.
If you have a credit card, youwill be fine.
(12:59):
Mobile phone and a credit card,no.
Cecilie Conrad (13:02):
But really, I mean solve the problems when
they are actually there.
I think that's one, onetakeaway.
We prepared a lot for a lot ofthings.
We had never been thinking alot, and it's not like we were
prepped at all, but it's.
It's actually been a lot of thepreparation.
This has just been in vain yeahit was just that was just not
(13:24):
the way to do it and we couldn'thave known, because it's quite
different to live nomadically.
It's quite different fromliving a stable life in a one
location and it's different frombeing on vacation, even a
longer one, like a gap year,backpack, whatever, something.
It's different when it becomesjust your reality and that
different reality has all sortsof different settings and and we
(13:47):
change, our needs change, ourdreams change, our kids change,
and so I feel it's more like thepreparation might be more in
the down, the lines of how muchinsecurity can we hold?
How do we make sure we talkabout things before we panic?
How do we make sure we get some?
You're going to hate me forsaying this.
(14:10):
This is one we haven't solved.
Andrew Schrum (14:12):
It's a good way.
Cecilie Conrad (14:13):
How do we get pauses?
Jesper Conrad (14:15):
Oh yeah, I would love that.
Cecilie Conrad (14:18):
And we get what?
Jesper Conrad (14:19):
Some pauses.
Heidi Schrum (14:20):
Time to work.
How do you stop and think?
Cecilie Conrad (14:21):
and feel Am I panifying this styling thing
because I'm having one bad dayin Stoke or actually needing it?
So with this, we knew itbecause we had been talking
about it for a long time.
Andrew Schrum (14:33):
I think, the next question.
It kind of continues on, butone of our older son, who's
seven, is not interested in thisjourney.
Our younger son, who's five,he's a, you know, he's a big
extrovert, happy to do whatever,make friends in a heartbeat,
and and we're kind of, you knowwe're, we're both in that, that
(14:56):
mindset as well.
Heidi Schrum (14:56):
Heidi and I was ready to experience anything and
everything everything, but ourseven-year-old is basically
refusing to go, and so we arejust kind of ignoring it and
just kind of proceeding as we goand he's he's one to be set in
(15:18):
his ways anyway.
So we're looking at thisopportunity as like a really
good thing for him and to likereally grow on this, being more
flexible and but also beingmindful of his personality.
But that's been like one bigquestion mark for us is like
(15:41):
just the resistance, and we'renot really sure how to navigate
it and just go forward with it.
Andrew Schrum (15:48):
And we've done a couple of trips.
You know we did a three, fourweek trip to Guatemala and we
did a five week trip to Mexicoto kind of test the waters and
they did great right Like theyadapted and they got along.
So we know that that is likelygoing to happen and it's all
going to be fine.
Jesper Conrad (16:10):
But the lead up to it is still challenging to
know every time we mention it.
I'm not going you know, ofcourse, but there is, yeah.
So it can be difficult how weas adults talk about these
things with our kids, because ifwe are saying we will travel
for a long time or we will sellour house or whatever, it's
(16:30):
their world, they have a shorterperspective than us.
So I would always see, if I cannot downplay it, not to cheat
them in any way, but also to notscare them.
I also believe there's no bigreason to talk a lot about death
with kids.
It's the same.
Let them be in their moment andin the focus.
(16:53):
And if it's really, reallyterrible for him, then it's also
not a good life for you.
And then you will figure out tochange your circumstances to
make it a good life for you, andthen you will think how to
change your circumstances tomake it a good life for everyone
.
The good recommendations is moreice cream, more cake, more fun,
(17:14):
but also to focus on what hewill get more of and not what he
will get less of.
Sometimes, when we talk withour kids about these changes, we
use an adult perspective.
That is just like, oh, pleaseunderstand, it will be so cool
for you and it's like, no, notin my mind.
I will know from my friends,from my house, from my things.
(17:36):
Then just take it step by step.
We had a little restrictionfrom one of our kids in the
start and he was also young.
I mean, sometimes we need totake care how we talk.
Cecilie Conrad (17:53):
I think, at least for us.
It was also a big matrix ofvalues and ideas leading up to
choosing to travel full time andwe knew that there would be
benefits and there would be pain.
(18:17):
You know there would be, for allof us and at the end we decided
it's going to be worth it.
We've been doing our best tomake them feel safe and feel
seen and feel happy and andwe've done good and we've failed
(18:37):
, you know, in both.
And I think it would have beenthe same had we lived in one
place.
There would have been greatelements of that and there would
have been downsides.
And that would have been thesame had we lived in one place.
There would have been greatelements of that and there would
have been downsides, and thatwould have been a different way
of failing.
So, it was this one and we toldwe had one who really protested
(19:00):
as well and we had to tell himI'm sorry, I know it's not right
for you, but as a collectivethere is more right than wrong
in this and we're going.
You have to come.
Yeah, and there was protest, butat the end of the day we were
the adults.
We made the decision and we didpromise we'll do our very best
(19:22):
to make sure that you get whatyou need in your life, and we'll
see how it goes.
And it's different now.
To make sure that you get whatyou need in your life and we'll
see how it goes.
And it's different now.
It's been more than half of hislife, so it's yeah, but but at
the time it wasn't an easychoice to make.
Yeah, it was not.
But once it was made, it wasyou know.
(19:42):
Then you just move forward.
You're like, yeah, I hear you,I hear approach, I know it's not
right for you.
As unschoolers it's hard tomake a choice against what your
child wants, because that's notthe modus, that's not what you
usually do, but sometimes you do, sometimes you have to for some
reason.
Heidi Schrum (20:05):
Relagging again.
Andrew Schrum (20:06):
Shoot, you lost your.
Cecilie Conrad (20:09):
Maybe we go into some of that, oh there you are
hi, I mean, we should just go ona little yeah, yeah, we will go
on.
Heidi Schrum (20:21):
I think that how did your, how did your child
change over time?
How long did the protests last?
Or what changes did you see?
How did that go?
Cecilie Conrad (20:38):
We're talking about more than half of the life
of someone who's now 13.
How did that change?
A lot of things change fromyour 6 to your 13.
Yeah and how much has to dowith where we live or where we
don't live and how much has todo with, you know, growing up.
(20:58):
It's a lot of things we talk alot about it we've talked.
We talked about it today again.
We've done a lot of differentthings and sometimes there can
still be some frustration, andsometimes it's been.
I remember a lot ofconversations on beaches.
Like you know, had we stayed,you wouldn't have been at the
(21:22):
beach today.
Andrew Schrum (21:23):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (21:24):
We live in a country where there are like
nine beach days a year and wherewe used to live in a country
that's very cold.
So and and all the things, allthe things added up that we have
experienced together that wewouldn't have had we not
traveled.
Child is growing and realizesthat it's not been like me, with
(21:47):
my index finger at the beachsaying, hey, I told you so uh
that it's just been more like anall-around.
You know, we've been on thebeach every day for the past
month and this is november.
You know, people are wearingwoolen socks and and they
they're all down with the fluand here you are swimming with
(22:07):
your siblings.
This is great.
And then there could be aconversation yeah, but still you
know.
And then there can be anotherfrom our side yeah, but this is,
you know.
This is the math.
It adds up.
It's better we're payingsomething for this, but at the
end of the day, this is the lifewe do want on an everyday basis
(22:29):
that's a big choice well, butit doesn't look like no, no, it
looks like you know.
Jesper Conrad (22:35):
You just press, repeat every morning.
Cecilie Conrad (22:37):
So, but it's, that's a choice too, and when
you're full-time traveling.
You're making choices all thetime.
I don't even know where I'msleeping tonight.
I mean it is yeah yeah, I'm justsaying I have to make choices
all the time, I have to makeplans, that I have to come up
with a new plan and people wholive more in a mainstream way
(23:01):
I'm trying to say this with allthe respect, but they don't have
to make these choices.
They don't realize they'remaking a choice, but they are
making a choice the sacrificinga lot of things to have that
comfort and safety and routinekind of life and and I hope that
that's what they want I meanthe amount of sunsets.
Jesper Conrad (23:20):
I've seen, together with my family, the
amounts of waterfalls, the hikes, the days on beaches, the
beauty and the people, and thepeople I have lived.
I'm 50 now and I'm like, in thelast seven years I have lived
so much more intensely.
(23:41):
Sorry, I was right over.
Cecilie Conrad (23:45):
No, no, no, everybody understood it yeah.
Like when you take the lettersof a word and you scramble them
and you can still read them.
Andrew Schrum (23:53):
It's the same.
Jesper Conrad (23:55):
No, but it I mean the amount of hours and time
I've gotten together with mychildren in this different way
of living.
I don't know, andrew, if youalready work from home or you
have changed it, but imaginebeing at the beach.
I mean, I've had days where Ihad.
Cecilie Conrad (24:16):
I'm actually really tired of the beach.
Jesper Conrad (24:17):
Yeah, you can get really tired of sand everywhere
, but having a meeting and thenafter the meeting being like, oh
, I think I will run down andjump in the water together with
my kids, oh my God, theexperiences, the joys we have
had Sometimes.
What I long for now is thepeace and quiet because my
(24:40):
everyday life is it will nothappen.
It's okay, yeah, and one thing.
Cecilie Conrad (24:53):
You just have peace and quiet.
While I did that long walk witheveryone yeah, like three or
four hours I did a really goodproject.
Jesper Conrad (25:01):
I really wanted it and I'm not finished with it.
I will do more yeah so, no,sorry, yeah.
So that's it.
But hit, I will do more yeah,so, no, sorry, yeah.
So so that's it, but hit uswith more questions.
Andrew Schrum (25:10):
Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll just probe you a
little bit on on your work andand how much?
How much do you work?
And I guess the question kindof stems around.
I've been working my wholeadult life and I just put in my
notice and I'm going to free themind for a little bit, and but
I've been in busy mind mode for,you know, a decade or more and
(25:32):
I work in marketing as well.
So I've been getting constantlypinged all day for 40, 50, 60
hours a week and and I'm aboutto be free of that, which is
very exciting.
But but also, you know, I'm alittle worried about, like,
where's my mind going to go.
But I know that I'm going tofind this great thing.
I'm going to find whatever Iwant to do.
Next, I'm going to spend moretime with my kids.
Jesper Conrad (25:55):
Don't do that.
Find a project.
Cecilie Conrad (25:59):
It would drive Jesper insane.
That doesn't mean it woulddrive you insane.
Jesper Conrad (26:04):
Yeah, actually, jesper, watch it there.
Yeah, I will watch it.
No, no, so there's this fun,it's like I can't stand still.
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (26:12):
Like you, literally have to tie me to a
sofa.
Yes, sir, cannot not haveprojects.
No, you just can't do it mymind and he comes up with
another, one and another andthey're like these monstrous
huge things.
I'm like what, what?
Yeah, yeah, what are that?
Jesper Conrad (26:29):
yeah, you know, it's fine, that's how you
function yes but everyone arenot like you no, but I will say
about going out of that.
The mindset, the busy, busymindset, oh my god, it's
difficult.
I'm not, I'm not sure I plan tonot sure you've ever done it,
have you?
I've tried for a year at somepoint where I've worked a little
(26:51):
, oh, back then.
So my experience is I actuallygot depressed.
Yeah, literally my personality,my every day for 30 years or
something, had been both myidentity someone who works and
(27:14):
do work thing and get money andidentify the money thing with a
pat on the shoulder.
That is like hey, yes, butyou're really good.
And the great thing about aproject is you can finish a part
of a task and then you can giveyourself two thumbs up, and if
you get money on top it's evenbetter.
(27:35):
But playing a game with yourchildren, nobody gives you money
or something.
So there's something in mymindset that has really
difficulties, where I'm waybetter at just ticking boxes and
saying, oh, yes, but you'redoing great, than relaxing in
the presence.
So what I've done is that oneof the best thing I've done is
(27:56):
something my wonderful wife hasbeen doing for years and I've
met more women than men doing it.
It's knitting.
I tried, I was really shit at it, but I've started half spoons
and I really love it, and Istarted also taking in a music
instrument.
So if you plan to tone downyour amount of work, I'm like
(28:18):
get a hobby because you yeah,you have been in a mode of
learning and being in thisproject phase where you tick
stuff off and, if you it, sodetox for that or like a cold
turkey on.
That is unhealthy I cannotrecommend.
I would rather change it outwith something that you can do
(28:39):
together play music, have fun,and actually one of the best
thing I've done is the the woodcarving.
I make spoons and people ask meif I should do other than
spoons and I'm like you're crazy.
I like spoons and they're good.
Cecilie Conrad (28:55):
It's a good thing to yeah and they don't
presence because we don't needmore than the 50 spoons we
already have yeah right thatgreat.
Jesper Conrad (29:07):
No, so be afraid and accept that it is a big
change.
Cecilie Conrad (29:11):
Yeah, notice who you are.
You're not necessarily likeJesper.
Andrew Schrum (29:17):
You might enjoy it.
Yeah, true Cool.
Cecilie Conrad (29:23):
If you feel like you need something to feel
important, you can have my 565emails.
Andrew Schrum (29:29):
Yeah yeah, I.
Heidi Schrum (29:34):
I hope that I'm sincerely not going to miss the
emails, but yeah, I'm sure thatwho knows, this is a different
question off that topic, but how, how do you guys go about with
screens and how have youapproached gaming and just the
whole screen thing in general?
Jesper Conrad (29:52):
We have tried all the different ways.
We have changed our mind on itmultiple, multiple times, some
of our earlier podcasts.
Then one of the things a quoteis a woman called Darcia Naves
(30:15):
who talked about you know, morenature tribes where people have
seen them letting the kids playwith the weapons, with the bow
and arrow and everything.
And then they were asked so whyare you letting them play with
the weapons?
And they said, oh, of coursethey need to know because this
will be their future work.
So of course they need to beable to handle it, but we do not
let them play with the poisonedarrows Comes for later.
(30:37):
So what I took out of that isasking myself so what is the
poisoned arrows of the screensthat is a question about?
Am I in dialogue with mychildren?
Do I interest myself whatthey're doing?
Am I sharing the experiencewith them?
Do I actually give them ascreen?
(30:57):
Sometimes to pacify them?
I have done that.
I've been like, oh, dad want tomake food without being
interrupted, and I don't havethe presence of mind to be there
when they and and I mean themess a five-year-old can make
and all these things sometimesI've just been like, oh, here's
the ipad.
(31:17):
Am I proud of that?
No, is it normal?
Yes, do I recommend it,depending on where you are in
your life?
Back Back then, for me at thatpoint it was the right thing.
No it was not.
It was what I had the mind andpresence of doing.
I would wish I had had morepresence of mind, but I didn't.
Cecilie Conrad (31:39):
We have done all the different things.
We've had rules.
We've had no rules.
We've had conversations.
I'm actually currently I don'tknow.
You said you heard the podcast.
Are you reading the blog aswell?
I think the last yeah things Iread wrote yeah screens and that
whole conversation, because Ithink everybody talk about it
(32:00):
all the time and there's a lotof worry around the parents and
there's a lot of blame and shamegoing on in the relation with
the kids and I don't know.
I mean, I think what I mostlysee is that it's been great what
(32:21):
the screens are contributingwith.
Contributing with it's a verynarrow-minded thing to like, not
narrow-minded, but very puttinga lot of things in the same
bucket when you say the screenand yeah and that's yes we have
to deconstruct that, we have totalk about it in a more nuanced
way, but ingeneral, what I see is we've had
(32:47):
so much conflict around thisand it's not been worth it, and
we've had so much worry andthere was actually nothing to
worry about.
We've had so many unnecessaryproblems and then we've had a
few things that we actually hadto change and, I think, stopping
(33:07):
to think about that a littlebit first and to have some level
, actual conversations with thechildren.
Also, if you're worried, that'sfair you know, you have a
nightmare, You're afraid.
You wake up in the night, You'reafraid.
It's an emotion.
It's all right If you'reworried.
It's okay to be worriedactually, and there's a lot of
(33:30):
the whole mainstreamconversation about it.
There's a lot of oh, theybecome addicted and all these
things.
Andrew Schrum (33:37):
It goes on, and on, and on and actually what
they're doing.
Cecilie Conrad (33:41):
It's quite entertaining, it's quite fun,
it's quite exploring.
No-transcript, it's quiteintelligent.
Actually, when I hear theirconversations about their games,
(34:01):
I can hardly understand it, butI can hear that there's a lot
of brainpower going on behindthe scenes here, a lot of
strategy, a lot of I mean I cancome up with some sort of words
that could legitimize it andsound like education or sound
like, I don't know, know, likeit's speaking.
Education is around it, andthat's not what I'm trying to do
(34:24):
.
I'm just saying to be bored, noone, no, no one.
And it's children and adultslike we don't like to be bored,
so we do something.
It's not boring, otherwise wedo something else.
And and this means these gamesand movies and shows and youtube
(34:47):
channels and all the things,all the chatting with friends
what else do they do?
I don't know all the things.
There must be something in it,because why would they do it?
I have a child who when she wasI want to say two years, but
maybe she was three actually shewould watch the same movie how
(35:09):
to train your dragon every day,every day, every day, for four
months.
I mean, I would have to leavethe room sometimes because I was
like she would watch that movieand jump in the sofa and I
don't know why that movie had tobe played more than a hundred
(35:32):
times before she had absorbedeverything she needed from it.
I could come up with, but it'snot relevant right now.
I'm just saying there must havebeen something in it Also when
she first played time number 112.
Otherwise she would have donesomething else.
She's smart.
(35:53):
She had a lot of options andyet there was just I need my
daily how to train my dragon,yeah, and one thing in the sofa,
yeah.
So she did that and and I think, yes.
So that's one side.
We're basically chill.
The other side is it's morelike, on a more abstract and
(36:16):
deconstructed way, we can thinkabout.
So are there any poisonousarrows here?
Is there anything that'sactually unhealthy, anything
that's actually too overwhelmingor intruding?
There's no doubt that thealgorithms and all the extensive
(36:37):
psychological research that isbehind some of the ways things
are presented to us, it'simpossible to not succumb to it,
to the fascination, and maybethat's not how we want to spend
our time, or maybe that's nothow we want to spend our time
right now, but it can be veryhard to stop to spend our time
(37:03):
right now, but it can be veryhard to stop um, so that would
be the poisonous arrow kind ofthing have any interactions with
things that are a little, canspiral out of control, and how
do we navigate it?
that's one thing I think isimportant.
And then the.
The other element is some sortof life design kind of thought
(37:23):
process.
So how do I want my life tolook?
What circles, what elements doI get a lot of stories from the
screen and do I like gettingstories, but do I also get the
exercise?
Do I also get the conversations?
Do I also get the music?
Do I also get the shared meals?
(37:46):
So all the elements that I want, are they all actually present?
And if they are not, ifsomething's out of balance?
If you're having a big,elaborate, seven course shared
meal three times a day, maybeyou're slightly overdoing it.
That would take you nine hoursof cooking and three hours of
(38:07):
cleaning, and you know you'renever doing anything.
But that so even sounds amazing.
Actually it isn't, and in a way, this the screen again it's.
I'm putting too many things inthe same bucket, but yeah,
that's the only way to talkabout it in a short way, but
that, of course, the lifebalance, life design
(38:28):
conversation can be held.
Are we gaming at three in themorning and we still think we're
getting up at that seveno'clock sunrise hike.
Does that make sense?
And we're maybe nine?
Do we need more than five hoursof sleep?
I mean, there are things likethat, that and that's.
Jesper Conrad (38:45):
That's leveled, respectful conversations, not
strict rules and judgment I haveone point also, which is one of
the biggest problems I see withscreens, is the judgment that
we parents put on it and what Ioften see.
We do never question thescreens when we are using time
(39:08):
together with our children.
On the screens it's most oftena and let me be a little
provocative here it's most oftena I do not want to be together
with my kids right now.
I would prefer they didsomething.
I would vote as intellectual Ifthey were sitting and playing
chess.
I would be a proud unschoolingdad.
(39:28):
But if they're sitting with ascreen, why do I do not want to
be together with them?
Cecilie Conrad (39:33):
Maybe even playing chess.
Jesper Conrad (39:34):
Maybe even playing chess with them, then I
can judge the value of whatthey're doing.
I can look down at it.
Where my question is?
Just so, if you think yourchild is using too much time on
the screen, maybe you shouldspend more time together with
your child.
Yeah, that's of course it's alittle rough, I know it, but I
(39:55):
do not see people judge whattheir children are doing on the
screen when they are doing ittogether with them, maybe just
being more together.
And and if you do not want tobe together with them, maybe
they should be free under thewhat you can live with in your
(40:15):
life, of the what they are doingand seeing on the screens no,
but also, as I said in thebeginning, if you're actually
worried, just speak that worryinstead of speaking a judgment
or rule.
Cecilie Conrad (40:27):
To say this worries me.
I've been at.
I mean, I'm really trying to bereally unschooling and really
free and open around thesethings because we've I've made
so many mistakes.
I'm sorry, I can say it again.
I'm sorry but sometimes I evensay to not that they're quite
old, our kids now, so not somuch any longer.
(40:49):
But I have said I know thatthis is wrong, that this is not
my philosophy, that it's notyour freedom and it's not, it's
not objectively right, but rightnow it makes me feel so
uncomfortable I I need us tounplug things now for a few
hours and do something else, thepoint just being you, you're
(41:10):
actually the parent, you are theadult we're allowed to say stop
, it's just your reasoningaround it.
Sometimes.
If it's actually just worry andthere's no good reason other
than that, maybe that could bethe sole argument.
I'm sorry, but I'm from adifferent generation.
I don't understand these thingsand it makes me uncomfortable,
(41:31):
and today I can't handle it.
Can we please unplug for awhile?
I need us to do something else.
It's about me.
There's nothing wrong with yourgames.
There's nothing wrong with yourgames.
There's nothing wrong with you.
Please, can we go on a hike?
And actually, you know kids cancooperate and will want to
cooperate If you don't use itnine times a day.
(41:53):
That would be unfair.
Heidi Schrum (41:56):
Kind of more on the unschooling bit is when
we're thinking about, like, whatwe want to do with our days,
just like right now, likeregular to do that.
So we're we're kind of like,okay, should we just like go and
(42:30):
like see this play, and just belike, okay, we're going to go
see this play and let's see ifthey like it or not.
Because a lot, a lot of timeswhen we do things they're like
like, oh, this is so fun.
But I think I guess more of myquestion around is like, um,
exposing kids versus followingtheir interests and I guess,
doing both um, but like, how doyou guys, how have you navigated
(42:55):
that throughout the years?
Jesper Conrad (42:56):
I think there's a danger in unfolding where
people forget themselves and letchildren be in the lead.
The parents are the parents,the parents are the caretakers.
The parents are moving in adirection and, of course, you
(43:17):
are respecting your children andwhat they want and like, but a
child shouldn't be in charge ofa family.
They're too young.
Yeah, so I think that sometimesunschooling can be in a way
where people, instead of seeingit as self-motivated that there
(43:38):
is a venture forward, energy inthe child and you follow along
with that, that they sometimeslet the child be in the lead and
be like oh so what do you wantto do today?
And the question is is it thechild who should figure out
these things?
Isn't it maybe a quite big loadof responsibility to put on a
(44:01):
child that is five years old orseven?
I mean, that's not fair either.
Cecilie Conrad (44:06):
Right, I think the whole exposure idea and it
might not be what you mean, butwhen in the unschooling
community we talk about exposingour children to things, yeah, I
think it's a reminiscence fromthe idea of schooling and now
that we're not schooling them,we need to expose them to things
.
That's like, then that becomesour responsibility.
(44:29):
And when I, when I think abouthow life unfolds, I'm pretty
sure most people be attracted tothe things they need in their
life.
So I'm sure my daughter waswatching that movie all the time
because she's actually really,really passionate about dogs and
(44:50):
and her whole thing is thatshe's very special around that.
And that movie is aboutconnecting with beings of
another gene pool and and Ithink that was the reason, so
she's attracted to that and thatwill become her career and
that's the whole thing.
And I think everyone actuallywill figure out what they are
(45:10):
attracted, what makes sense forthem in life, what's important.
And we're all different, we allhave different interests and
different passions and you can'tknow and you don't need to take
your kids and put them in 2 000different contexts during their
childhood, because then, onlyand only then, will they find
the one of them.
(45:30):
That's right, they will find it.
They will find it.
Sure, you can keep them at home, you can just do whatever, just
dinner, you know it's notimportant, they will figure it
out.
They're very's not important,they will figure it out.
They're very, very young rightnow.
They will figure it out.
So that's one thing.
This whole exposure idea becomesa little bit like setting the
scene, like you should go, dothings you think are fun to do,
(45:53):
do things you like doing, and ifyou don't feel like doing them,
don't do them, except if youfeel like you have to for some
reason.
Like the good old doing thedishes argument, you know you
feel like eating from a cleanplate next time, so you do the
dishes now.
So of course there are thingslike that, but really I mean
exposure.
(46:14):
I think it's bullshit, andespecially these years, we all
have the internet in our backpocket, so if you ask a question
about snails you can answer itright away.
You don't need to do a lot ofexposure, you just need to be
together and follow yourinterests and feel your
heartbeat and feel all this.
I'd really like to know moreabout that, and usually it's not
(46:37):
.
It doesn't feel like education.
It doesn't feel like education.
It doesn't feel like, um, Iwant to learn.
It's more like, oh, I'm there,you know, I wonder, tell me more
.
And and it it becomes thisconversation.
Jesper Conrad (46:50):
Unschooling is a conversation style that takes 18
, 20, 25 years, yeah, so yeahthat's the one thing.
Cecilie Conrad (46:59):
And then the other part of the answer, I
think, is we've always beenlooking for common ground, like
for shared interests.
For what?
What do we really like to dotogether?
We're very good at going forlong hikes.
We really like becoming really,really tired and thirsty
together.
It unwinds everything.
Everybody gets to talk witheveryone and oh, it's so nice to
(47:22):
do so that and not everyoneloves that.
I know someone who lives innorway and they just don't like
skiing and it's just too bad,you know, because it's actually
a really good option if you livethere, but none of them like it
, so they don't do it, which isfair.
You think everyone in norwaygoes skiing all the time.
Actually they don't.
So, find whatever works and andwe do it like we have a few
(47:46):
things we like to do all of us,and then we have with all of our
kids.
We have like so there's thisthing I like to do with this
daughter and then there's thatthing I like to do with that son
, and we find these things and Ilike doing it.
I'm not doing it for exposureor education or any other
strategic.
I do it because I like doing it.
It makes me happy.
(48:07):
But that is exposure.
I mean, if you want to havethat mindset, that is the reason
we're pilgriming Shakespearetoday.
I mean it's because there'ssomething we like doing together
.
Jesper Conrad (48:21):
Yeah, yeah, we are trying to round this episode
up and we would really like totake another chat with you
Before we say a proper goodbye.
I want to say what one of ourgood friends said to us before
we started traveling.
She said beware of the six,seven month crisis, because six
(48:48):
months, yeah many people you goin.
It's always adventure, it's allnew and you have so much wow,
stuff is happening.
But after stuff has happenedfor some time, you get down to
the oath.
There's also the everyday lifeand it's not fun all the time
you actually have to cutfingernails, but then you forget
that life in in one place whereyou have one circle where you
(49:13):
live your everyday life.
that's not always fun either, sodon't think that life will be
all glamorous for the rest ofthe time you're traveling.
There's good days and there'sbad days, and many have a crisis
around half a year because thenit becomes everyday life and
it's not so fantastic anymore.
Cecilie Conrad (49:33):
Maybe you're tired at that point you run
pretty fast and that's when Isaid we've had some pauses.
We've had pauses At least inthe afternoon.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, where wedidn't do a lot, yeah, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (49:45):
Yeah, so remember the pauses, remember to have
fun, and the world is really,really a wonderful place to hang
out.
Andrew and Heidi, thank you fortaking the time to ask us these
questions, and sorry we talk somuch.
Yeah, I look forward to hearingmore questions, so let's find a
(50:06):
new time and date.
We'll just do it on email, andhave you already created an
Instagram for your friends tofollow you, and if then share it
with us, then we can put it inthe show notes so people can
follow along?
Yeah, if then share it with us,then we can put it in the show
notes so people can follow along.
Andrew Schrum (50:23):
Yeah, that sounds great.
We're kind of waiting till outof work to think through all of
that and get the right thinggoing, whether it's a blog or
just social or whatever.
But this has been awesome.
Thank you so much for takingtime and it really has.
We'll continue to follow you.
Yes, thank you so much.
Let's talk again and we willtalk again it was fun.
Cecilie Conrad (50:42):
It was great Bye-bye.
Jesper Conrad (50:43):
Thank you All right Thanks.
So today we are together with Heidi and Andrew
Schrum, and the reason we arehere is because Cecilia and I
had been doing some talks inDanish and I wrote about them
and Heidi reached out to me andsaid oh, are you doing some in
English?
At some point it could be goodto ask some questions, and then
I thought why not invite them ona podcast episode?
(00:23):
And then we just take all thequestions you have right now.
So first of all, a warm welcome.
It is nice to see you both.
Heidi Schrum (00:31):
Nice to see you guys too.
We are about to embark on ourown traveling journey in about a
month.
We have two kids five and sevenand we've been following you
guys for about a month.
We have two kids five and sevenand we've been following you
guys for about a year now andreally enjoy all the podcasts
that you guys put out, and soyou're also unschoolers, but
(00:55):
also just getting to the pointwhere we're getting more
questions asked to us abouteducation with our kids, and it
it's has become a little more ofa challenge, and so we're just
trying to like figure out ourwording and how to explain our
life and us embarking on thisfull-time travel.
(01:16):
There's lots of questionscoming from other people and,
since following you guys, it'sbeen like a huge inspiration for
us, and our first question iswhat is some general information
you guys could give us, like us?
Andrew Schrum (01:33):
just first starting out, something that
maybe took you five years tofigure out through your journey.
Or, um, you know something youwish you would have thought
about before you left.
Or you learned along the wayand you're like, oh, I wish I
would have done this differently, anything like that.
Jesper Conrad (01:50):
Oh, I have a good one for that and it is tied a
little into the whole all thequestions.
First I experienced thequestions change a little.
Or what changed a little whenwe started traveling.
Was this move from oh so it's alittle weird, you guys are
(02:11):
unschooling what's going on andyou're homeschooling to how
fascinating that you're going ona journey with your kids.
We always wanted that ourselves.
That changed.
First I was a little mesmerizedby it.
I was like, but hey, it's thesame thing I'm doing.
Why is it all of a suddeninteresting now before you
(02:34):
thought it was weird?
But I think it is because it iseasier for people to say to
themselves I cannot do this,whereas sometimes the lifestyle
we have led have been a tone inpeople's eyes where they kind of
can have felt that our lifechoices were somehow diminishing
(03:02):
what they did with their life.
And for us it hasn't been thatgoal at all.
We are not living our life tosay to other people you should
live differently.
We live our life because welike it.
But one thing I wish I couldhave done differently is that I
think I need to start used a lotof time explaining myself, a
(03:25):
lot of time not talking down,kind of finding all that was bad
with the culture we were in thesociety and saying to people
praising the unschooling choiceand the world schooling choice,
by talking negatively about theschools and to school your kids,
(03:45):
where I today actually try tofind a difference between.
Is it just a polite question?
You know, normally when peopleyou say, hey, what are you doing
?
Oh, you're traveling, oh, thatsounds exciting.
It is sometimes just small talkand not an invitation to talk
(04:06):
for three hours.
Sometimes I have talked forthree hours and be part of that
was to strengthen my ownarguments and thoughts.
Where today I'm a little morechilled, I would rather hear
about other people and talk withthem about their thoughts.
And then I had to claimunschooling is the best in the
(04:28):
world and if you put yourchildren to school, you
shouldn't, et cetera, et cetera.
Can I say?
Cecilie Conrad (04:34):
something.
Yeah, please.
It's clear that world schoolingis less frowned upon than
unschooling.
People are very overwhelmed byoh, that's an adventure.
I wish I could do that.
So it changes.
And also, if you don't mindthat people make up their own
ideas about what you're doing, Imean, they can project all
(04:55):
sorts of things into the wordworld schooling and you don't
have to you know, they don'thave to all understand.
For the first I don't, maybethree or four years even we were
unschooling, based inCopenhagen, the same city as my
in-laws, my mother-in-law.
She thought I was sitting atthe dining table with the kids
three hours a day with a beltand some books, and I didn't
(05:18):
correct her.
She was happy, felt safe.
I was happy, felt safe.
No one got hurt.
I was happy, felt safe, no onegot hurt.
I didn't laugh at her.
She never asked, and when shefigured out they had been home
educated for so long, sherealized that they were doing
good.
So it was just the form wasdifferent.
So yeah, but I think I'manswering a different question
(05:40):
than the one you asked.
And the one you asked Iunderstood as what, what would
you wish you had known, or what,what have you figured out that
could be explained now so wedon't have to go make the same
mistake.
I think the main thing is thatin preparing for the change from
(06:02):
a home-based life to a nomadiclife, there's a lot of thought
process, and you know you thinkabout it so much and you imagine
what it could be like and allkinds of things from water
bottles to higher education.
You know it's all going onthere and, in reality, life
changes all the time.
You know, you can't know and Ican't know what you need two
(06:26):
years from now and what willlook like for you you would have
to come up with what most sense.
All the time.
You're freeing yourself from arestriction of having to stay in
one place or being dependent ona house and and you're you're
going to have to grow some.
You know you're going to haveto grow some.
You know you're going to haveto be able to hold some
(06:47):
insecurity and you're going tohave to solve a lot of problems
you didn't see coming.
Not necessarily big anddevastating problems, just
situations, okay.
Okay, that one I don't know.
I mean, and can you prepare?
No, you can't prepare for that.
You can prepare for beingflexible, know being okay.
I'm going to have to solve someproblems that I can't imagine
(07:09):
right now.
Not hard, I've never had likedevastating anything I'm just
saying when it unfolds,everything changes.
So I think it's a waste of timeto try to prepare so much for it
, because your kids will growand they have personalities.
And you will grow and you havepersonalities and you will meet
(07:33):
people and you will fall in lovewith places and you will hate
other places and and you willsometimes book something for
three months and hate stayingthere, maybe even leave.
I mean, there's so many thingsthat can happen and I needed to
buy a bus to feel secure.
You need to get out of there,you need to get started and, and
(07:53):
we need very much needed tosell that bus again.
The bus was a I mean, I don'tknow it.
No, no, no it was a mistake,but it was a ticket out more
than it was a traveling vehicle.
Yeah, and, and it's veryexpensive to get out yeah, but I
.
Jesper Conrad (08:08):
That's why I say that's what I needed for my, for
my security in it.
What I've learned during thelast five years is that's
basically what cecilia is sayingoh yeah, but the first five,
seven, oh yeah.
We have traveled a long timenow.
No, what I've learned is thatit is really good to have wi-fi.
(08:29):
I have the wi-fi everywhere.
The styling is good when it'saligned, but it's also when I
look back at how we traveledthen I think, yeah, do you
remember your big first wi-fisolution the panic solution
where I had five different cardswith 20 devices.
Cecilie Conrad (08:52):
Yeah, I remember that okay oh, oh yeah I mean,
that's actually a story in thewrong way.
Yeah, I'm not knowing whatyou're venturing into, trying to
prepare and just mega failingoh, oh, I mega failed, so I
bought a satellite Doing itwould have been better.
Jesper Conrad (09:09):
A big satellite that cost a lot of money.
I never used it.
It cost a lot of money and whenI was ready to put it out, I
was thinking about where are weactually as people?
Oh, we are where other peopleare.
One thing that is common forwhere people are is that there's
(09:30):
mobile coverage, and if I'm ina place without mobile coverage
it's because I do not want towork.
Only place in all of Europe andMexico and the States I've had
shitty Wi-Fi on the mobile is inUK.
Cecilie Conrad (09:49):
It's over.
Jesper Conrad (09:50):
I bought last summer.
I bought the styling in UKbecause I couldn't understand
why they have so shitty mobilecoverage.
Cecilie Conrad (09:59):
Actually.
Jesper Conrad (10:00):
Now we know.
Cecilie Conrad (10:02):
To be fair.
Yeah, I mean England is growingon me.
I actually love England.
I think they To be fair.
Yeah, I mean England is growingon me.
I actually love England.
I think they're great over here.
Maybe they can even have theirgreat in their name.
Jesper Conrad (10:10):
Oh yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (10:12):
Covering was really bad.
It is really bad over here, itjust is.
The mobile covering is reallybad In a lot of cases, even in
the big cities.
It shocks us every time we gohere.
But the real reason was I wasgoing on, and on and on and on
and on and on about I wanted togo to Scotland and because the
(10:33):
covering is so bad even downhere, even inside London, Jesper
was like panicking we cannot goup to Scotland.
That's too risky.
There will be no Wi-Fi.
We have to take our money.
It's fair enough, so it's notfor.
Andrew Schrum (10:45):
Netflix, you know it's too risky.
Cecilie Conrad (10:45):
There will be no Wi-Fi.
We have to take our money.
Andrew Schrum (10:47):
It's fair enough.
So it's not for Netflix, youknow, it's for work.
Cecilie Conrad (10:48):
So yeah, so we bought the Starlink After a day.
Oh man, we can drizzle littlestories here.
So one day we wake up in aforest and it's really epically
beautiful because Englandactually really is it's lush and
there's the sea stream and thesoil is nice to walk on with our
bare feet and we've just beenon an amazing festival.
(11:09):
We're really tired, overwhelmed, happy, grateful, and we're
just going to spend the day inthis forest, you know, coming
down after a big, big, hugefestival.
Jesper Conrad (11:19):
But I have a meeting.
Cecilie Conrad (11:19):
And yes, but just have a simple call.
It's not a big deal.
You know he can work.
We can walk a little bit withthe dogs.
It's nice, except, yeah,there's just shite covering.
He cannot work so we have toleave.
He's panicking.
We're packing up really quickly.
Everything is chaos.
When we don't do it nicely inthe van, it becomes very, very
(11:41):
chaotic.
It's not like there's no grad.
Either it's good or it'shorrible.
So it became horrible and wehad to drive real fast because
he had this meeting.
It was a quite.
All meetings are important.
You're having a meeting withanother person and you're you
know you should show up.
So yeah, anyway, we drive tothe nearest city happens to be
what's the name of it.
It's even a joke in a show stokeand we part at needles parking
(12:08):
and it's just, I mean the vibethere, it's just it was terrible
it can be worse, but it wasreally bad and I was like fuck
it.
And we bought the stanley thesame day yeah and then oh.
Jesper Conrad (12:20):
But then we drove to scotland where it was
mountains, mountains andwaterfalls and I had top Wi-Fi
and I was just so happy.
Cecilie Conrad (12:29):
You were the happiest?
No, but really it was thathaving to leave that forest that
day was just no.
Jesper Conrad (12:37):
But to sum it up, because we talk a lot even on
just one question sorry, but itis that you can think so much
before you can be so afraid, youcan have so many insecurities
about what will happen.
It's just life.
It will be okay.
If you have a credit card, youwill be fine.
(12:59):
Mobile phone and a credit card,no.
Cecilie Conrad (13:02):
But really, I mean solve the problems when
they are actually there.
I think that's one, onetakeaway.
We prepared a lot for a lot ofthings.
We had never been thinking alot, and it's not like we were
prepped at all, but it's.
It's actually been a lot of thepreparation.
This has just been in vain yeahit was just that was just not
(13:24):
the way to do it and we couldn'thave known, because it's quite
different to live nomadically.
It's quite different fromliving a stable life in a one
location and it's different frombeing on vacation, even a
longer one, like a gap year,backpack, whatever, something.
It's different when it becomesjust your reality and that
different reality has all sortsof different settings and and we
(13:47):
change, our needs change, ourdreams change, our kids change,
and so I feel it's more like thepreparation might be more in
the down, the lines of how muchinsecurity can we hold?
How do we make sure we talkabout things before we panic?
How do we make sure we get some?
You're going to hate me forsaying this.
(14:10):
This is one we haven't solved.
Andrew Schrum (14:12):
It's a good way.
Cecilie Conrad (14:13):
How do we get pauses?
Jesper Conrad (14:15):
Oh yeah, I would love that.
Cecilie Conrad (14:18):
And we get what?
Jesper Conrad (14:19):
Some pauses.
Heidi Schrum (14:20):
Time to work.
How do you stop and think?
Cecilie Conrad (14:21):
and feel Am I panifying this styling thing
because I'm having one bad dayin Stoke or actually needing it?
So with this, we knew itbecause we had been talking
about it for a long time.
Andrew Schrum (14:33):
I think, the next question.
It kind of continues on, butone of our older son, who's
seven, is not interested in thisjourney.
Our younger son, who's five,he's a, you know, he's a big
extrovert, happy to do whatever,make friends in a heartbeat,
and and we're kind of, you knowwe're, we're both in that, that
(14:56):
mindset as well.
Heidi Schrum (14:56):
Heidi and I was ready to experience anything and
everything everything, but ourseven-year-old is basically
refusing to go, and so we arejust kind of ignoring it and
just kind of proceeding as we goand he's he's one to be set in
(15:18):
his ways anyway.
So we're looking at thisopportunity as like a really
good thing for him and to likereally grow on this, being more
flexible and but also beingmindful of his personality.
But that's been like one bigquestion mark for us is like
(15:41):
just the resistance, and we'renot really sure how to navigate
it and just go forward with it.
Andrew Schrum (15:48):
And we've done a couple of trips.
You know we did a three, fourweek trip to Guatemala and we
did a five week trip to Mexicoto kind of test the waters and
they did great right Like theyadapted and they got along.
So we know that that is likelygoing to happen and it's all
going to be fine.
Jesper Conrad (16:10):
But the lead up to it is still challenging to
know every time we mention it.
I'm not going you know, ofcourse, but there is, yeah.
So it can be difficult how weas adults talk about these
things with our kids, because ifwe are saying we will travel
for a long time or we will sellour house or whatever, it's
(16:30):
their world, they have a shorterperspective than us.
So I would always see, if I cannot downplay it, not to cheat
them in any way, but also to notscare them.
I also believe there's no bigreason to talk a lot about death
with kids.
It's the same.
Let them be in their moment andin the focus.
(16:53):
And if it's really, reallyterrible for him, then it's also
not a good life for you.
And then you will figure out tochange your circumstances to
make it a good life for you, andthen you will think how to
change your circumstances tomake it a good life for everyone
.
The good recommendations is moreice cream, more cake, more fun,
(17:14):
but also to focus on what hewill get more of and not what he
will get less of.
Sometimes, when we talk withour kids about these changes, we
use an adult perspective.
That is just like, oh, pleaseunderstand, it will be so cool
for you and it's like, no, notin my mind.
I will know from my friends,from my house, from my things.
(17:36):
Then just take it step by step.
We had a little restrictionfrom one of our kids in the
start and he was also young.
I mean, sometimes we need totake care how we talk.
Cecilie Conrad (17:53):
I think, at least for us.
It was also a big matrix ofvalues and ideas leading up to
choosing to travel full time andwe knew that there would be
benefits and there would be pain.
(18:17):
You know there would be, for allof us and at the end we decided
it's going to be worth it.
We've been doing our best tomake them feel safe and feel
seen and feel happy and andwe've done good and we've failed
(18:37):
, you know, in both.
And I think it would have beenthe same had we lived in one
place.
There would have been greatelements of that and there would
have been downsides.
And that would have been thesame had we lived in one place.
There would have been greatelements of that and there would
have been downsides, and thatwould have been a different way
of failing.
So, it was this one and we toldwe had one who really protested
(19:00):
as well and we had to tell himI'm sorry, I know it's not right
for you, but as a collectivethere is more right than wrong
in this and we're going.
You have to come.
Yeah, and there was protest, butat the end of the day we were
the adults.
We made the decision and we didpromise we'll do our very best
(19:22):
to make sure that you get whatyou need in your life, and we'll
see how it goes.
And it's different now.
To make sure that you get whatyou need in your life and we'll
see how it goes.
And it's different now.
It's been more than half of hislife, so it's yeah, but but at
the time it wasn't an easychoice to make.
Yeah, it was not.
But once it was made, it wasyou know.
(19:42):
Then you just move forward.
You're like, yeah, I hear you,I hear approach, I know it's not
right for you.
As unschoolers it's hard tomake a choice against what your
child wants, because that's notthe modus, that's not what you
usually do, but sometimes you do, sometimes you have to for some
reason.
Heidi Schrum (20:05):
Relagging again.
Andrew Schrum (20:06):
Shoot, you lost your.
Cecilie Conrad (20:09):
Maybe we go into some of that, oh there you are
hi, I mean, we should just go ona little yeah, yeah, we will go
on.
Heidi Schrum (20:21):
I think that how did your, how did your child
change over time?
How long did the protests last?
Or what changes did you see?
How did that go?
Cecilie Conrad (20:38):
We're talking about more than half of the life
of someone who's now 13.
How did that change?
A lot of things change fromyour 6 to your 13.
Yeah and how much has to dowith where we live or where we
don't live and how much has todo with, you know, growing up.
(20:58):
It's a lot of things we talk alot about it we've talked.
We talked about it today again.
We've done a lot of differentthings and sometimes there can
still be some frustration, andsometimes it's been.
I remember a lot ofconversations on beaches.
Like you know, had we stayed,you wouldn't have been at the
(21:22):
beach today.
Andrew Schrum (21:23):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (21:24):
We live in a country where there are like
nine beach days a year and wherewe used to live in a country
that's very cold.
So and and all the things, allthe things added up that we have
experienced together that wewouldn't have had we not
traveled.
Child is growing and realizesthat it's not been like me, with
(21:47):
my index finger at the beachsaying, hey, I told you so uh
that it's just been more like anall-around.
You know, we've been on thebeach every day for the past
month and this is november.
You know, people are wearingwoolen socks and and they
they're all down with the fluand here you are swimming with
(22:07):
your siblings.
This is great.
And then there could be aconversation yeah, but still you
know.
And then there can be anotherfrom our side yeah, but this is,
you know.
This is the math.
It adds up.
It's better we're payingsomething for this, but at the
end of the day, this is the lifewe do want on an everyday basis
(22:29):
that's a big choice well, butit doesn't look like no, no, it
looks like you know.
Jesper Conrad (22:35):
You just press, repeat every morning.
Cecilie Conrad (22:37):
So, but it's, that's a choice too, and when
you're full-time traveling.
You're making choices all thetime.
I don't even know where I'msleeping tonight.
I mean it is yeah yeah, I'm justsaying I have to make choices
all the time, I have to makeplans, that I have to come up
with a new plan and people wholive more in a mainstream way
(23:01):
I'm trying to say this with allthe respect, but they don't have
to make these choices.
They don't realize they'remaking a choice, but they are
making a choice the sacrificinga lot of things to have that
comfort and safety and routinekind of life and and I hope that
that's what they want I meanthe amount of sunsets.
Jesper Conrad (23:20):
I've seen, together with my family, the
amounts of waterfalls, the hikes, the days on beaches, the
beauty and the people, and thepeople I have lived.
I'm 50 now and I'm like, in thelast seven years I have lived
so much more intensely.
(23:41):
Sorry, I was right over.
Cecilie Conrad (23:45):
No, no, no, everybody understood it yeah.
Like when you take the lettersof a word and you scramble them
and you can still read them.
Andrew Schrum (23:53):
It's the same.
Jesper Conrad (23:55):
No, but it I mean the amount of hours and time
I've gotten together with mychildren in this different way
of living.
I don't know, andrew, if youalready work from home or you
have changed it, but imaginebeing at the beach.
I mean, I've had days where Ihad.
Cecilie Conrad (24:16):
I'm actually really tired of the beach.
Jesper Conrad (24:17):
Yeah, you can get really tired of sand everywhere
, but having a meeting and thenafter the meeting being like, oh
, I think I will run down andjump in the water together with
my kids, oh my God, theexperiences, the joys we have
had Sometimes.
What I long for now is thepeace and quiet because my
(24:40):
everyday life is it will nothappen.
It's okay, yeah, and one thing.
Cecilie Conrad (24:53):
You just have peace and quiet.
While I did that long walk witheveryone yeah, like three or
four hours I did a really goodproject.
Jesper Conrad (25:01):
I really wanted it and I'm not finished with it.
I will do more yeah so, no,sorry, yeah.
So that's it.
But hit, I will do more yeah,so, no, sorry, yeah.
So so that's it, but hit uswith more questions.
Andrew Schrum (25:10):
Yeah, I mean, maybe I'll just probe you a
little bit on on your work andand how much?
How much do you work?
And I guess the question kindof stems around.
I've been working my wholeadult life and I just put in my
notice and I'm going to free themind for a little bit, and but
I've been in busy mind mode for,you know, a decade or more and
(25:32):
I work in marketing as well.
So I've been getting constantlypinged all day for 40, 50, 60
hours a week and and I'm aboutto be free of that, which is
very exciting.
But but also, you know, I'm alittle worried about, like,
where's my mind going to go.
But I know that I'm going tofind this great thing.
I'm going to find whatever Iwant to do.
Next, I'm going to spend moretime with my kids.
Jesper Conrad (25:55):
Don't do that.
Find a project.
Cecilie Conrad (25:59):
It would drive Jesper insane.
That doesn't mean it woulddrive you insane.
Jesper Conrad (26:04):
Yeah, actually, jesper, watch it there.
Yeah, I will watch it.
No, no, so there's this fun,it's like I can't stand still.
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (26:12):
Like you, literally have to tie me to a
sofa.
Yes, sir, cannot not haveprojects.
No, you just can't do it mymind and he comes up with
another, one and another andthey're like these monstrous
huge things.
I'm like what, what?
Yeah, yeah, what are that?
Jesper Conrad (26:29):
yeah, you know, it's fine, that's how you
function yes but everyone arenot like you no, but I will say
about going out of that.
The mindset, the busy, busymindset, oh my god, it's
difficult.
I'm not, I'm not sure I plan tonot sure you've ever done it,
have you?
I've tried for a year at somepoint where I've worked a little
(26:51):
, oh, back then.
So my experience is I actuallygot depressed.
Yeah, literally my personality,my every day for 30 years or
something, had been both myidentity someone who works and
(27:14):
do work thing and get money andidentify the money thing with a
pat on the shoulder.
That is like hey, yes, butyou're really good.
And the great thing about aproject is you can finish a part
of a task and then you can giveyourself two thumbs up, and if
you get money on top it's evenbetter.
(27:35):
But playing a game with yourchildren, nobody gives you money
or something.
So there's something in mymindset that has really
difficulties, where I'm waybetter at just ticking boxes and
saying, oh, yes, but you'redoing great, than relaxing in
the presence.
So what I've done is that oneof the best thing I've done is
(27:56):
something my wonderful wife hasbeen doing for years and I've
met more women than men doing it.
It's knitting.
I tried, I was really shit at it, but I've started half spoons
and I really love it, and Istarted also taking in a music
instrument.
So if you plan to tone downyour amount of work, I'm like
(28:18):
get a hobby because you yeah,you have been in a mode of
learning and being in thisproject phase where you tick
stuff off and, if you it, sodetox for that or like a cold
turkey on.
That is unhealthy I cannotrecommend.
I would rather change it outwith something that you can do
(28:39):
together play music, have fun,and actually one of the best
thing I've done is the the woodcarving.
I make spoons and people ask meif I should do other than
spoons and I'm like you're crazy.
I like spoons and they're good.
Cecilie Conrad (28:55):
It's a good thing to yeah and they don't
presence because we don't needmore than the 50 spoons we
already have yeah right thatgreat.
Jesper Conrad (29:07):
No, so be afraid and accept that it is a big
change.
Cecilie Conrad (29:11):
Yeah, notice who you are.
You're not necessarily likeJesper.
Andrew Schrum (29:17):
You might enjoy it.
Yeah, true Cool.
Cecilie Conrad (29:23):
If you feel like you need something to feel
important, you can have my 565emails.
Andrew Schrum (29:29):
Yeah yeah, I.
Heidi Schrum (29:34):
I hope that I'm sincerely not going to miss the
emails, but yeah, I'm sure thatwho knows, this is a different
question off that topic, but how, how do you guys go about with
screens and how have youapproached gaming and just the
whole screen thing in general?
Jesper Conrad (29:52):
We have tried all the different ways.
We have changed our mind on itmultiple, multiple times, some
of our earlier podcasts.
Then one of the things a quoteis a woman called Darcia Naves
(30:15):
who talked about you know, morenature tribes where people have
seen them letting the kids playwith the weapons, with the bow
and arrow and everything.
And then they were asked so whyare you letting them play with
the weapons?
And they said, oh, of coursethey need to know because this
will be their future work.
So of course they need to beable to handle it, but we do not
let them play with the poisonedarrows Comes for later.
(30:37):
So what I took out of that isasking myself so what is the
poisoned arrows of the screensthat is a question about?
Am I in dialogue with mychildren?
Do I interest myself whatthey're doing?
Am I sharing the experiencewith them?
Do I actually give them ascreen?
(30:57):
Sometimes to pacify them?
I have done that.
I've been like, oh, dad want tomake food without being
interrupted, and I don't havethe presence of mind to be there
when they and and I mean themess a five-year-old can make
and all these things sometimesI've just been like, oh, here's
the ipad.
(31:17):
Am I proud of that?
No, is it normal?
Yes, do I recommend it,depending on where you are in
your life?
Back Back then, for me at thatpoint it was the right thing.
No it was not.
It was what I had the mind andpresence of doing.
I would wish I had had morepresence of mind, but I didn't.
Cecilie Conrad (31:39):
We have done all the different things.
We've had rules.
We've had no rules.
We've had conversations.
I'm actually currently I don'tknow.
You said you heard the podcast.
Are you reading the blog aswell?
I think the last yeah things Iread wrote yeah screens and that
whole conversation, because Ithink everybody talk about it
(32:00):
all the time and there's a lotof worry around the parents and
there's a lot of blame and shamegoing on in the relation with
the kids and I don't know.
I mean, I think what I mostlysee is that it's been great what
(32:21):
the screens are contributingwith.
Contributing with it's a verynarrow-minded thing to like, not
narrow-minded, but very puttinga lot of things in the same
bucket when you say the screenand yeah and that's yes we have
to deconstruct that, we have totalk about it in a more nuanced
way, but ingeneral, what I see is we've had
(32:47):
so much conflict around thisand it's not been worth it, and
we've had so much worry andthere was actually nothing to
worry about.
We've had so many unnecessaryproblems and then we've had a
few things that we actually hadto change and, I think, stopping
(33:07):
to think about that a littlebit first and to have some level
, actual conversations with thechildren.
Also, if you're worried, that'sfair you know, you have a
nightmare, You're afraid.
You wake up in the night, You'reafraid.
It's an emotion.
It's all right If you'reworried.
It's okay to be worriedactually, and there's a lot of
(33:30):
the whole mainstreamconversation about it.
There's a lot of oh, theybecome addicted and all these
things.
Andrew Schrum (33:37):
It goes on, and on, and on and actually what
they're doing.
Cecilie Conrad (33:41):
It's quite entertaining, it's quite fun,
it's quite exploring.
No-transcript, it's quiteintelligent.
Actually, when I hear theirconversations about their games,
(34:01):
I can hardly understand it, butI can hear that there's a lot
of brainpower going on behindthe scenes here, a lot of
strategy, a lot of I mean I cancome up with some sort of words
that could legitimize it andsound like education or sound
like, I don't know, know, likeit's speaking.
Education is around it, andthat's not what I'm trying to do
(34:24):
.
I'm just saying to be bored, noone, no, no one.
And it's children and adultslike we don't like to be bored,
so we do something.
It's not boring, otherwise wedo something else.
And and this means these gamesand movies and shows and youtube
(34:47):
channels and all the things,all the chatting with friends
what else do they do?
I don't know all the things.
There must be something in it,because why would they do it?
I have a child who when she wasI want to say two years, but
maybe she was three actually shewould watch the same movie how
(35:09):
to train your dragon every day,every day, every day, for four
months.
I mean, I would have to leavethe room sometimes because I was
like she would watch that movieand jump in the sofa and I
don't know why that movie had tobe played more than a hundred
(35:32):
times before she had absorbedeverything she needed from it.
I could come up with, but it'snot relevant right now.
I'm just saying there must havebeen something in it Also when
she first played time number 112.
Otherwise she would have donesomething else.
She's smart.
(35:53):
She had a lot of options andyet there was just I need my
daily how to train my dragon,yeah, and one thing in the sofa,
yeah.
So she did that and and I think, yes.
So that's one side.
We're basically chill.
The other side is it's morelike, on a more abstract and
(36:16):
deconstructed way, we can thinkabout.
So are there any poisonousarrows here?
Is there anything that'sactually unhealthy, anything
that's actually too overwhelmingor intruding?
There's no doubt that thealgorithms and all the extensive
(36:37):
psychological research that isbehind some of the ways things
are presented to us, it'simpossible to not succumb to it,
to the fascination, and maybethat's not how we want to spend
our time, or maybe that's nothow we want to spend our time
right now, but it can be veryhard to stop to spend our time
(37:03):
right now, but it can be veryhard to stop um, so that would
be the poisonous arrow kind ofthing have any interactions with
things that are a little, canspiral out of control, and how
do we navigate it?
that's one thing I think isimportant.
And then the.
The other element is some sortof life design kind of thought
(37:23):
process.
So how do I want my life tolook?
What circles, what elements doI get a lot of stories from the
screen and do I like gettingstories, but do I also get the
exercise?
Do I also get the conversations?
Do I also get the music?
Do I also get the shared meals?
(37:46):
So all the elements that I want, are they all actually present?
And if they are not, ifsomething's out of balance?
If you're having a big,elaborate, seven course shared
meal three times a day, maybeyou're slightly overdoing it.
That would take you nine hoursof cooking and three hours of
(38:07):
cleaning, and you know you'renever doing anything.
But that so even sounds amazing.
Actually it isn't, and in a way, this the screen again it's.
I'm putting too many things inthe same bucket, but yeah,
that's the only way to talkabout it in a short way, but
that, of course, the lifebalance, life design
(38:28):
conversation can be held.
Are we gaming at three in themorning and we still think we're
getting up at that seveno'clock sunrise hike.
Does that make sense?
And we're maybe nine?
Do we need more than five hoursof sleep?
I mean, there are things likethat, that and that's.
Jesper Conrad (38:45):
That's leveled, respectful conversations, not
strict rules and judgment I haveone point also, which is one of
the biggest problems I see withscreens, is the judgment that
we parents put on it and what Ioften see.
We do never question thescreens when we are using time
(39:08):
together with our children.
On the screens it's most oftena and let me be a little
provocative here it's most oftena I do not want to be together
with my kids right now.
I would prefer they didsomething.
I would vote as intellectual Ifthey were sitting and playing
chess.
I would be a proud unschoolingdad.
(39:28):
But if they're sitting with ascreen, why do I do not want to
be together with them?
Cecilie Conrad (39:33):
Maybe even playing chess.
Jesper Conrad (39:34):
Maybe even playing chess with them, then I
can judge the value of whatthey're doing.
I can look down at it.
Where my question is?
Just so, if you think yourchild is using too much time on
the screen, maybe you shouldspend more time together with
your child.
Yeah, that's of course it's alittle rough, I know it, but I
(39:55):
do not see people judge whattheir children are doing on the
screen when they are doing ittogether with them, maybe just
being more together.
And and if you do not want tobe together with them, maybe
they should be free under thewhat you can live with in your
(40:15):
life, of the what they are doingand seeing on the screens no,
but also, as I said in thebeginning, if you're actually
worried, just speak that worryinstead of speaking a judgment
or rule.
Cecilie Conrad (40:27):
To say this worries me.
I've been at.
I mean, I'm really trying to bereally unschooling and really
free and open around thesethings because we've I've made
so many mistakes.
I'm sorry, I can say it again.
I'm sorry but sometimes I evensay to not that they're quite
old, our kids now, so not somuch any longer.
(40:49):
But I have said I know thatthis is wrong, that this is not
my philosophy, that it's notyour freedom and it's not, it's
not objectively right, but rightnow it makes me feel so
uncomfortable I I need us tounplug things now for a few
hours and do something else, thepoint just being you, you're
(41:10):
actually the parent, you are theadult we're allowed to say stop
, it's just your reasoningaround it.
Sometimes.
If it's actually just worry andthere's no good reason other
than that, maybe that could bethe sole argument.
I'm sorry, but I'm from adifferent generation.
I don't understand these thingsand it makes me uncomfortable,
(41:31):
and today I can't handle it.
Can we please unplug for awhile?
I need us to do something else.
It's about me.
There's nothing wrong with yourgames.
There's nothing wrong with yourgames.
There's nothing wrong with you.
Please, can we go on a hike?
And actually, you know kids cancooperate and will want to
cooperate If you don't use itnine times a day.
(41:53):
That would be unfair.
Heidi Schrum (41:56):
Kind of more on the unschooling bit is when
we're thinking about, like, whatwe want to do with our days,
just like right now, likeregular to do that.
So we're we're kind of like,okay, should we just like go and
(42:30):
like see this play, and just belike, okay, we're going to go
see this play and let's see ifthey like it or not.
Because a lot, a lot of timeswhen we do things they're like
like, oh, this is so fun.
But I think I guess more of myquestion around is like, um,
exposing kids versus followingtheir interests and I guess,
doing both um, but like, how doyou guys, how have you navigated
(42:55):
that throughout the years?
Jesper Conrad (42:56):
I think there's a danger in unfolding where
people forget themselves and letchildren be in the lead.
The parents are the parents,the parents are the caretakers.
The parents are moving in adirection and, of course, you
(43:17):
are respecting your children andwhat they want and like, but a
child shouldn't be in charge ofa family.
They're too young.
Yeah, so I think that sometimesunschooling can be in a way
where people, instead of seeingit as self-motivated that there
(43:38):
is a venture forward, energy inthe child and you follow along
with that, that they sometimeslet the child be in the lead and
be like oh so what do you wantto do today?
And the question is is it thechild who should figure out
these things?
Isn't it maybe a quite big loadof responsibility to put on a
(44:01):
child that is five years old orseven?
I mean, that's not fair either.
Cecilie Conrad (44:06):
Right, I think the whole exposure idea and it
might not be what you mean, butwhen in the unschooling
community we talk about exposingour children to things, yeah, I
think it's a reminiscence fromthe idea of schooling and now
that we're not schooling them,we need to expose them to things
.
That's like, then that becomesour responsibility.
(44:29):
And when I, when I think abouthow life unfolds, I'm pretty
sure most people be attracted tothe things they need in their
life.
So I'm sure my daughter waswatching that movie all the time
because she's actually really,really passionate about dogs and
(44:50):
and her whole thing is thatshe's very special around that.
And that movie is aboutconnecting with beings of
another gene pool and and Ithink that was the reason, so
she's attracted to that and thatwill become her career and
that's the whole thing.
And I think everyone actuallywill figure out what they are
(45:10):
attracted, what makes sense forthem in life, what's important.
And we're all different, we allhave different interests and
different passions and you can'tknow and you don't need to take
your kids and put them in 2 000different contexts during their
childhood, because then, onlyand only then, will they find
the one of them.
(45:30):
That's right, they will find it.
They will find it.
Sure, you can keep them at home, you can just do whatever, just
dinner, you know it's notimportant, they will figure it
out.
They're very's not important,they will figure it out.
They're very, very young rightnow.
They will figure it out.
So that's one thing.
This whole exposure idea becomesa little bit like setting the
scene, like you should go, dothings you think are fun to do,
(45:53):
do things you like doing, and ifyou don't feel like doing them,
don't do them, except if youfeel like you have to for some
reason.
Like the good old doing thedishes argument, you know you
feel like eating from a cleanplate next time, so you do the
dishes now.
So of course there are thingslike that, but really I mean
exposure.
(46:14):
I think it's bullshit, andespecially these years, we all
have the internet in our backpocket, so if you ask a question
about snails you can answer itright away.
You don't need to do a lot ofexposure, you just need to be
together and follow yourinterests and feel your
heartbeat and feel all this.
I'd really like to know moreabout that, and usually it's not
(46:37):
.
It doesn't feel like education.
It doesn't feel like education.
It doesn't feel like, um, Iwant to learn.
It's more like, oh, I'm there,you know, I wonder, tell me more
.
And and it it becomes thisconversation.
Jesper Conrad (46:50):
Unschooling is a conversation style that takes 18
, 20, 25 years, yeah, so yeahthat's the one thing.
Cecilie Conrad (46:59):
And then the other part of the answer, I
think, is we've always beenlooking for common ground, like
for shared interests.
For what?
What do we really like to dotogether?
We're very good at going forlong hikes.
We really like becoming really,really tired and thirsty
together.
It unwinds everything.
Everybody gets to talk witheveryone and oh, it's so nice to
(47:22):
do so that and not everyoneloves that.
I know someone who lives innorway and they just don't like
skiing and it's just too bad,you know, because it's actually
a really good option if you livethere, but none of them like it
, so they don't do it, which isfair.
You think everyone in norwaygoes skiing all the time.
Actually they don't.
So, find whatever works and andwe do it like we have a few
(47:46):
things we like to do all of us,and then we have with all of our
kids.
We have like so there's thisthing I like to do with this
daughter and then there's thatthing I like to do with that son
, and we find these things and Ilike doing it.
I'm not doing it for exposureor education or any other
strategic.
I do it because I like doing it.
It makes me happy.
(48:07):
But that is exposure.
I mean, if you want to havethat mindset, that is the reason
we're pilgriming Shakespearetoday.
I mean it's because there'ssomething we like doing together
.
Jesper Conrad (48:21):
Yeah, yeah, we are trying to round this episode
up and we would really like totake another chat with you
Before we say a proper goodbye.
I want to say what one of ourgood friends said to us before
we started traveling.
She said beware of the six,seven month crisis, because six
(48:48):
months, yeah many people you goin.
It's always adventure, it's allnew and you have so much wow,
stuff is happening.
But after stuff has happenedfor some time, you get down to
the oath.
There's also the everyday lifeand it's not fun all the time
you actually have to cutfingernails, but then you forget
that life in in one place whereyou have one circle where you
(49:13):
live your everyday life.
that's not always fun either, sodon't think that life will be
all glamorous for the rest ofthe time you're traveling.
There's good days and there'sbad days, and many have a crisis
around half a year because thenit becomes everyday life and
it's not so fantastic anymore.
Cecilie Conrad (49:33):
Maybe you're tired at that point you run
pretty fast and that's when Isaid we've had some pauses.
We've had pauses At least inthe afternoon.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, where wedidn't do a lot, yeah, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (49:45):
Yeah, so remember the pauses, remember to have
fun, and the world is really,really a wonderful place to hang
out.
Andrew and Heidi, thank you fortaking the time to ask us these
questions, and sorry we talk somuch.
Yeah, I look forward to hearingmore questions, so let's find a
(50:06):
new time and date.
We'll just do it on email, andhave you already created an
Instagram for your friends tofollow you, and if then share it
with us, then we can put it inthe show notes so people can
follow along?
Yeah, if then share it with us,then we can put it in the show
notes so people can follow along.
Andrew Schrum (50:23):
Yeah, that sounds great.
We're kind of waiting till outof work to think through all of
that and get the right thinggoing, whether it's a blog or
just social or whatever.
But this has been awesome.
Thank you so much for takingtime and it really has.
We'll continue to follow you.
Yes, thank you so much.
Let's talk again and we willtalk again it was fun.
Cecilie Conrad (50:42):
It was great Bye-bye.
Jesper Conrad (50:43):
Thank you All right Thanks.
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