December 21, 2025 • 52 mins
Ex-detective turned homeschooler Victoria Lenormand describes leaving a policing career as it shifted from service to force and recognizing the same pattern in her son’s early schooling. In this conversation, she explains how grading, labels, and constant assessment eroded confidence, and how home education replaced pressure with agency, learning by doing, and community built through shared interests rather than age-based classrooms.
🗓️ Recorded December 8, 2025. 📍 Tarragona, Spain
🔗 Relevant links
- https://geminidirections.co.uk/
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoria-lenormand-2129227b/
- https://www.instagram.com/geminidirections.co.uk/
- https://www.facebook.com/geminidirections
- https://amzn.eu/d/dZz1BqH
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jesper Conrad (00:10):
Today we're together with Victoria
Lynnormond, and she is in UK andwe are in Spain.
So, first of all, Victoria,wonderful to meet you.
And how's the weather in goodold UK?
Victoria Lenormand (00:23):
Uh-oh.
First of all, thank you forhaving me.
Thanks for the invite.
And yeah, it's a little chillyhere today.
It's bright, but it's chilly.
So it's a nice winter's day, Iwould say.
Approaching winter.
Jesper Conrad (00:34):
Yes, and as well here, but we will hit the beach
later as it's the water is cold,but uh it's still wonderful.
The sun is out, and we will goget some sunlight.
Victoria, I got an email askingif we wanted an and it was a
fun phrasing, ex-detectiveturned homeschooler.
(00:55):
And I was like, so what has youdetected earlier in life?
Which kind of detective?
Victoria Lenormand (01:03):
It's a lifelong learning experience,
isn't it?
But yeah, initially I was aprofessional police officer,
detective, investigator.
I spent 28 years over a courseof that part of my life when I
left school.
I wanted to be a writer.
That's all I wanted to do waswrite.
But I had some back surgerythat was a little unexpected,
and it kind of put paid to howmuch support I would have from
(01:26):
school.
I'd been previously a goodstudent, but kind of abandoned
at the point that I neededsurgery.
And it was going to take aboutthree months for me to be able
to be back in school.
And it was coming up to examtimes.
And I think that was when Ifirst started questioning what
does this mean?
I've worked hard all thisperiod, and now I'm going to be
(01:47):
graded and told that I'm notgoing to do very well because of
this huge period of absence.
And it was kind of making mefeel like my value was actually
being questioned through nofault of my own.
I needed surgery on my back.
That was it.
There was nothing I could doabout it.
I had to heal.
And it was going to take timebefore I was safe to be in that
collective student environmentagain.
(02:07):
So I get that happened young.
That definitely left its mark.
Although I changed directionfairly happily.
I joined police service.
I thought it would be a nice,varied career.
It's community-centric.
It would be giving back.
That changed.
And I changed.
That changed.
My second son arrived andwasn't fitting the narrative of
(02:31):
our education system at all.
So I think the old, the oldthoughts, the old questions
started to come up as I couldsee with him that he was
starting to equate his personalvalue to this grading system.
And that's what came back upagain for me.
And I felt really quite letdown that that was still
happening.
And in fact, it seemed to besignificantly worse.
(02:53):
I'd learned over time that thatwas not my value.
And I still question the valueof grading children in that way.
I just think it's unhelpful totheir well-being.
So that's what made me changedirection.
Change of service focus fromservice to force, which I didn't
align with.
And then my child being gradedlike three, age three, age four,
(03:19):
unwelcome, pathologizingbehavior as like autism and
sensory processing issues.
We've got all these diagnoses,and it really started to get me
questioning actually, what am Idoing here?
What am I doing?
I'm when I look at my child athome, I can see a very active,
creative little boy who's quitedetermined to go in this
(03:43):
direction.
And I think where he'sstruggling is that he doesn't
align with somebody else'sgoals.
And is that any different to mepolicing for all those years
with a community-centric goaland my organization changing
focus to a force goal?
So maybe there was something inthat.
Jesper Conrad (04:02):
To protect by force, if that's what it's
called now.
Victoria Lenormand (04:05):
I can't see how that could possibly work.
It just doesn't, it doesn't,it's not community-centric, and
it is not we're supposed toreflect our community.
There wasn't enough funding puttowards the strategies that
work really well, likerestorative justice and
community support, communitypolicing.
That just all stopped in favorof two people in a car, more in
(04:28):
a van, lots and lots of show offorce.
And I thought, not sure I'm onboard here.
In fact, pretty certain I'mnot.
I wonder how effective thatcould possibly be when you're
always going to be outnumbered.
I just wonder who's kiddingthemselves really.
Cecilie Conrad (04:43):
But are they kidding themselves though?
Or I'm afraid a lot of peopleactually believe in these
strategies.
Victoria Lenormand (04:50):
What people?
Cecilie Conrad (04:52):
Well, those who construct the school system,
those who make the decision thatwe will just uh show police
force rather than do preventivework.
People making decisions, and Ihope they believe in their
philosophy.
Because if they don't, wouldmost likely because be because
(05:13):
they didn't stop to think aboutit or didn't bother, or no, I
don't even want to think thatthrough.
Victoria Lenormand (05:20):
Yeah, that's I know it's hard, isn't it?
It's hard to look at thatreflection.
I mean it certainly was for meto think why is this happening?
Because I can't see the logic,the sense, or the reasoning
behind it.
It's not.
I was part of a very smallcommunity in the south of
England and then later on on asmall island community.
So community is the very basisof what policing has its roots
(05:44):
in.
It's about social justice atthe very beginning.
It was about balancing thatinjustice in in that field.
It was not, well, it certainlywasn't my training that we were
here for as an absolutely largeresort.
So why add it to the title?
If that's deliberate, itworries me.
If it's not deliberate, itequally worries me.
(06:05):
And I'm just concerned now.
I'm so concerned I can't lookin the mirror and align with it.
So I'm gonna have to move.
Jesper Conrad (06:13):
Victoria, was there during your service?
Didn't it change the name frompolice something to police
force?
Victoria Lenormand (06:21):
Exactly.
It changed from police service.
I joined a police service andit changed to police force about
five years before I left, fouror five years before I left.
So I wondered if it was justgoing to be in the name, and
then it didn't feel like it wasa name.
It felt like it was less it wasmore about budgets and saving
(06:42):
money, and rather thandelivering a service, then
delivering is something that wascheaper and more
cost-effective.
Jesper Conrad (06:48):
And interesting change in words, I must say.
Victoria Lenormand (06:53):
Yeah.
Jesper Conrad (06:53):
Yeah.
Victoria, some of the thingsyou talk about make me think on
my own life.
I like many other who ends upin homeschooling and
unschooling, etc., comes from aschool background.
I come from a public schoolbackground.
Yeah.
And it can be difficult for meto look at my life and say, what
(07:15):
comes from being brought up inthis and what is basically
human.
Sometimes I can question my ownoutcome-based focus in life.
Yes.
I want to produce, I feel moreproud when I've created
something than when I don'thave.
And when I have a negative lenson, oh, it's because it comes
(07:37):
from the school system,sometimes I then also judge, oh,
but yes, but your hobby iscarving spoons, and that's
outcome-based.
But it's also fun doing.
And there is diskeuteness in mymind where I cannot figure out
to totally figure out where Istand with it because outcome is
(07:59):
not bad.
But if we do it for the outcomeonly and not for enjoying the
process, then it's bad.
And sometimes we got just getconfused about oh, where am I
with this?
Is am I doing it because of theresult or am I doing it because
I enjoy the process?
Victoria Lenormand (08:16):
Yeah.
I was looking at my son througha similar thing.
Yeah.
Sorry, I missed that.
Cecilie Conrad (08:21):
No, I said maybe it's a little bit of both every
time.
Victoria Lenormand (08:24):
I was looking at my son at this
particular point.
I didn't have a bad career.
Like I say, I spent 28 years inthat service and until I felt
misaligned.
And I think that's always thekey.
Maybe something that came froma combination of that nature
nurture thing that you'redescribing.
What's my nature?
What am I drawn to?
(08:45):
What do I enjoy doing?
And then what I have the energyfor that that lights me up.
When I say the energy for thethings that light me up that I
genuinely want to go and do, andI watch that in my children,
the things that light them up,they learn with ease.
It's just easy.
They just float through it.
When it's somebody else's goal,which is where I'm picking up
(09:05):
on where you were before, iswhen it's someone else's goal,
you if this again, there'salmost an element of forcing
yourself because I should.
Now, don't get me wrong, thereare days when I don't want to do
the laundry and I won't.
But if it's piling up and itneeds doing, it's I'm I may not
be feeling like it, but it'sgoing to get done.
There are the fewer of thosemoments I have, the easier
things flow, the easier thingsgo for us.
(09:28):
Is that there are some days,yes, I have to bite the bullet a
little bit because there's anecessity.
But if it's not entirelynecessary, how often do we check
in with ourselves?
Is this a necessary thing?
Is this something I need to doright now?
Or can I take some rest?
Can I?
Because there's a lot to besaid for the productivity that
comes from rest.
(09:48):
If I force myself, it rarelygoes well.
If I'm rested and I want to doit, it's a whole different ball
game, isn't it?
Cecilie Conrad (09:57):
We've just completed, almost completed
months.
Wait a minute, September,October, December, four months,
more like four months process ofhelping our third child with
her first life's first exam.
Victoria Lenormand (10:12):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (10:13):
Children have decided that they want to go to
university, and in order to dothat in our country, you have to
do a university prep schoolthing.
It's a bit like high school,it's a bit different, a bit like
first year of college in yourcountry.
It's the school systems are notthe same in the different
cultures.
So they have to go through athree-year education in order to
(10:33):
get into university.
It's very hard to get aroundthat one.
So now they have to do thatafter being fully unschooled.
And for our third child, therewas the precursor that she had
to do a math exam.
So there's a placement test,and she failed the math part.
So she had to do the math part,and then she can do the
university prep school, and thenshe can do university.
This is all voluntary thingsthey want to do.
(10:56):
This child has decided early onin life that there were like
two things in academics.
So this is the three-year-olddeciding there's reading and
there's math.
And she really enjoyed reading.
Her logic at three was then Icannot like math because I have
to choose.
She didn't even know theconcept of dividing two numbers
(11:30):
four months ago.
Because she decided that's notfor me.
I don't like it.
I'm not doing it.
Forget it.
And I've never, you know, Idon't care much about that.
It's her choice, her life.
And so, but I also know, andI've been talking about math
many times in the context ofunschooling, because that's you
know, can they read?
What about math?
(11:50):
And do they have any friends?
They're like the three mainquestions.
And I've said, you know, youcan learn math in three or four
months when you're an adult, butyou can never relive your
childhood.
Nature happens only once inlife.
You can never win that back.
So why would we ruin theirchildhood with math and instead
of just letting them do itwhenever they feel like it?
(12:12):
And now we've done it.
It's been a voluntary process.
This child, it's the secondtime in now our unschooling
journey.
This happens, so I did knowthis will happen.
She sat down, and this is goingfrom K to whatever, something
like 10, 11 IGCSE level, Ithink, maybe eight, I don't know
(12:35):
exactly.
It's a lot of man.
She did it all in four monthsand she did it while we had
festivals going on, herboyfriend flying in and out,
driving to different countries,all kinds of things.
This 17-year-old girl pushedher therself through something
(12:55):
like 10, 11, 12 years of math infour months.
She just passed the exam.
We haven't gotten the result,but I went through the questions
I can see of 120 points shecould get.
I she has at least 110.
So she's good.
She passed it.
This is motivation working foryou.
This is when you want to do it.
(13:15):
It's done, it's not hard.
And you go for your goal andyou choose to do so.
It might be at two o'clock inthe morning, it might be
canceling a movie night, itmight be whatever, having
sandwiches instead of fancymeals because now you're just
prioritizing this, and becauseyou want to do it, it becomes so
(13:40):
easy.
It's not a simple, it's notlike doing that, it's not
drinking, it's just and whenwhen she was finished and exam
was the next step, she told methe day before the exam, I'm
gonna miss this.
This was fun.
How why am I not doing mathtomorrow?
What what then what?
Victoria Lenormand (14:01):
Yeah, if you want to carry on.
So this is what we're saying touh to ours as well.
I mean, we have one our eldestwent through the school system,
went on to university, puthimself under all the pressure
that our kids put himself under.
We tried the whole, you know,it was right for him.
That's where he wanted to be.
Although, I have to say, hishis university studies,
(14:22):
everything that came frompredominantly an extracurricular
interest from the age of abouteight.
So he was going to school earlyfor choir and he loved to sing.
And then come secondary school,he found the drama in the
stage, and then he put the twotogether for musical theater and
found his love in life.
That was it, and it just flowedthe picking up an instrument
(14:44):
and teaching himself the wholething.
So most of it was he was achild who could be in that
environment, and it didn'treally phase him too much unless
somebody would question hiseffort on a particular subject
that clearly had a lower levelof interest in.
And you think, well, you'refollowing your interest, go
there.
It's fine.
When you're 18, 19, 20, peoplestop asking about what grade you
(15:09):
got in every subject and startasking about what interest you
have.
I assure you, this is whathappens.
Our youngest was literallybeing graded from the off.
It felt like colours.
No, check this, check this,check.
What they kept missing in hisand what he was missing was the
integration of that learning.
(15:29):
And that was the bit that wherewe had these diagnoses of
autism, sensory processingstuff.
He was, he was, unlike hisolder brother, he was not happy
in that environment.
It was not something he couldtolerate from the lighting to
the chaos to the switchingsubjects every 30 minutes.
I've just got into this, andshe's telling me to stop.
(15:50):
And I, but I've just got intoit, and now I'm interested, and
she wants me to stop and go dosomething else.
And I'm like, well, no, I wantto see what happened.
They asked me to come into theschool at one point.
Like in in literally the spaceof 10 minutes, they had the kids
sitting around in a circle.
Ah, that sounds nice.
They put these flowers incolored water, and they got this
(16:11):
science experiment going at theback of the room.
Well, my son is instantly drawnto that.
Is that what's happening withthe flowers?
And he can't focus on anythingelse at that point.
And it's just being marked downbecause he can't focus on
anything but what's happeningwith these flowers.
You've told me somethinggreat's going to happen with
these flowers.
I'm looking at the flowers now,I'm just watching them very
patiently.
And I'm thinking, we can markhim for patience, interest, we
(16:36):
could mark him for very positivethings.
But instead, what we're doingis crossing the fact that he
can't shift as quickly as youwant him to, age three, which
then made him welcome unwelcomein the next stage of your
system.
And I honestly thought, whatare we we're abandoning and
judging kids age three, and hedoesn't line up well and he
(16:58):
doesn't.
I'm thinking, I'm not surethese are things I value.
H three.
I just not sure these arethings I value at all.
And I I'm trying to have aconversation, I'm trying to be
reasonable about it because, inall fairness, I was kind of
stuck on I have to go to work,so you have to go to school
because I couldn't see what hewas going to do, age three,
(17:22):
while I was busy investigatingfraud.
Just couldn't understand.
And then I thought, I think Ineed to change something for
this one.
This one does not respond wellin that environment.
And over a couple of years, theeffect on his well-being was
marked.
And I couldn't undo thatwithout the redress that we had
(17:46):
was to completely withdraw.
I mean, he was at the point ofI have no value, I have no worth
here, I cannot get on therainbow.
I don't understand what thepoint is of half of this stuff.
All I'm being told is howimportant it is, and that I
can't do it day after day.
And I'm thinking that wouldpretty much affect anybody's
(18:08):
mental health to a point we talkabout mental health, but I'm
talking about his holisticwell-being here.
And the fact that our systemcould not pivot for me as a
child.
And then again, for my ownyoungest son, I thought, it's
maybe it's not for everybody.
And that's okay.
That started the process ofwhat are we going to do?
So we moved into it.
(18:29):
Wasn't an overnight thing.
I was agonizing over this forquite some time, is to answer
that question.
How are we going to provide youwith a roof over your head and
feed you properly and do all theMaslows, basic things that
parents put in to be thenurturing mother I want to be?
Jesper Conrad (18:48):
Sorry, let me interject the question right
here.
Victoria Lenormand (18:53):
Yeah.
Jesper Conrad (18:54):
What on this point, where you started
questioning how was yourperspective of homeschoolers?
How big a knowledge did youhave?
Did you have friends who wereit?
And where were you?
Because it it can be a big stepif you know no one, it can be a
smaller step if you havefriends who are doing it.
And homeschooling is bigger.
(19:16):
So where were you on the wholeis this an option for us kind of
thing?
Victoria Lenormand (19:21):
I was in the the homeschooling, what's that?
Home unschooling, homeeducation.
What is that?
I it's not even on my radar.
It's never been on my radar.
I don't have friends in mycircle that unschool, home
educate, any of those things.
And I thought, right, I I justdon't know.
But Montessori schooling hadbeen on my radar, which was a
(19:44):
little bit different.
Again, a lot kinder to oureldest son.
Our youngest didn't fit that,but he does like, you know, it
was a lot kinder to our eldestson.
So I started looking atalternative schooling options at
that particular point.
And the only thing that keptcoming up was this barrier of
autism and how unwelcome thatwas, unless you went down these
(20:05):
really specialist lines, whichreally didn't.
didn't seem to put the child atthe center of what was needed.
And I that was what got melooking at home education, you
know, education from the home.
And learning for me has alwaysbeen a lifelong thing.
(20:26):
Every day I learn somethingnew.
It's not going to stop whenyou're 16.
Maybe I could bring that valueto it and take the pressure off,
you know, because that wasreally clear to me, is the
pressure really needed to comeoff of my child that, and that
just wasn't going to happen inthat environment.
This goal orientation, ifyou're a bit sensitive to
pressure or you've gone so fardown a spiral, you are now very
(20:49):
sensitive to pressure.
Then, you know, I think thatthat was my focus at that point.
So I looked at local communityon the small island that I lived
on, that it wasn't huge.
And there's only so muchvariety on a small island
without traveling.
And then I understood how muchmy son likes experiential
learning, likes to be in it.
(21:09):
You know, he learns by doing somuch better.
That that integrated knowledge,I think, is the most valuable
rather than just, I just knowthis from a book, but I haven't
got a clue how to apply it.
So we we went, we started to godown that exploration when I
had a moment of we could try andrelook at our assets and how
(21:34):
they can work for us rather thanme working for assets.
So I flipped the script there,and then I flipped the script
from learning by the time you're16 and being exam and
goal-based to learning to knowwho you are and what you love,
and let's work from that, youknow, let's get you back into a
(21:54):
sense of self and your ownpersonal value.
So we changed the autismlanguage to a design, a human
design language of, you know,what do you love?
How do you work?
How does energy work for you?
What lights you up?
Let's discover that together.
And both my husband and Iwithdrew from the workplace,
redistributed our assets, rentedout our house and moved into
our motorhome and traveled forlike three years of let's go
(22:18):
find.
Let's go find what you'reinterested in.
Let's go show you that this isa really big world and not this
tiny small island that you thinkyou don't fit in.
There's going to be a place inthe world that you do.
When we weren't traveling inthe motorhome, we were lucky
enough.
I took retirement a littleearly, but I took early
retirement, decided to investthose funds in my child.
(22:40):
So it's been distributed tohis, you know, between him and
his brother.
They've got a very smallbusiness that they're looking,
they're working together, youknow, around a property.
Do they, you know, do theydevelop it?
How does that work?
How does it so the life skillsare dripping out of that?
And then we traveled.
We traveled with with, youknow, we've cruised, we've gone
(23:01):
in the motorhome, we've gone andtrained, and we've gone on, and
and we just keep going whereverhis interest is.
Right now, we're based inGlasgow.
Our eldest son went touniversity here, absolutely
loved it.
Our youngest fell in love withScotland.
It's the outdoorsy life.
It's the climbing, the walking,the hiking, it's the all the
activity that he loves, andparticularly rugby, scouting.
(23:24):
Suddenly that all came back.
When he started to like himselfa bit more, he wanted to
socialise again.
Whereas before he washermit-like, completely
withdrawn.
Now we're six years into ourunschooling journey.
We tried the what do we dofirst?
And we had some books at home.
And, you know, we started to gothrough the books until there
(23:45):
was resistance.
And I thought, I'm not going toforce it.
I'm not going to force it.
I don't believe in that.
So, what's going to happen if Ijust leave him with the day?
What's going to happen with histime?
How's he going to directhimself?
And he does.
He directs himself every day toright now, it's nutrition,
rugby.
It previously has been ancienthistory.
He's really interested in, wewere talking earlier about the
(24:08):
Romans, you know.
So we traveled to sites that hecould learn from, you know,
he's traveled to Greece to havea look at the ancient history
there, you know, desperatelywants to go to Egypt, but
timing's not right for us at themoment.
And it'll but he, I said thereare some things you can put on
your wish list for for later ofplaces that you want to see and
why you want to see it.
Maybe explore a little more ofwhat else you want to see.
(24:30):
But yeah, right now it's rugby.
He's uh so we're stationary inGlasgow, just as he's training
sort of four times a week, andhe's now on a rugby development
pathway because this is whathe's loving.
So it's a totally differentchange, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (24:46):
If you want to put Egypt on your list, then I
recommend August 27th.
There's a full solar eclipsethat will last for four minutes.
Victoria Lenormand (24:57):
Really?
2027, right?
Jesper Conrad (24:59):
2027, yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (25:00):
So you're 2027, excellent.
August 2027.
Jesper Conrad (25:05):
I've seen one on we saw one that was uh one and a
half or almost two minutes.
That's stunning.
But four minutes I I can't waitto experience it.
Everyone will come.
Cecilie Conrad (25:27):
I was thinking we talked in the beginning about
community.
You use the word community manytimes, and that's um main focus
and a passion for us.
And it's also one of the mainquestions that always circles
circulates around theunschooling.
Do they have any friends?
But it's also a questionunschoolers get.
(25:49):
What about community?
You're pulling your childrenout of the community, you're not
contributing, and you know, wehave the public schooling, you
probably have the same inEngland.
There's this high moral in ourcountry that you put your child
in the public schooling to bepart of the mix.
And if you take all theresourceful families, take their
children out of the publicschooling, well, then how are we
(26:13):
going to live together?
Which I'm I kind of like theidea, but my child is not a
lifting.
I need a word.
You know, the thing you use forcars when you lift it to change
the tire.
Yeah, it's like public school,the whole idea is broken, and my
child is not going to be thesolution or tool to solve it.
(26:33):
Yes, I find community.
I mean, who are we even?
And what can we?
There's no, it's like water,there's no life without
community.
There's no we all really needit, and we know so.
Some maybe more in theforefront of of cognition than
(26:54):
others, but we all know wedepend on each other.
If you would talk a bit,something fell in the other room
and I got distracted.
I'm sorry.
(27:42):
So, what are your thoughts?
And who are we as homeeducators community-wise?
Victoria Lenormand (27:52):
I think, I mean, it's not new, it's been
it's been around longer than Iever realized, that's for sure.
I I've I knew that when I firststarted exploring it, some
people have been drawn theirchildren on religious grounds,
and some people, and that youknow, communities had grown
here, and that some some peoplehad uh really butted up against
the system.
More and more people seem to behaving this special educational
(28:16):
needs diagnosis, you know, andand that these families are
pulling their children out indroves at the moment, which is
certainly over in the UK, it'scausing huge political unrest
that and greater levels ofcontrol as to what how home
educators educate.
And like you say, one of thosebig arguments is socialization.
(28:36):
Now, the funny thing is, when Italk, when I talk about autism,
socialization is one of thetriads of impairments, one of
the difficulties.
I'm watching my sonsuccessfully socialize with
people that he has sharedinterests with.
It's the way the schoolmeasures socialization that
makes it unsuccessful.
The idea that people, becausethey're the same age, should all
(28:59):
get along is utterlyridiculous.
None of us do that.
I don't go out and look foranother 52-year-old person and
go, hey, we've got everything incommon.
It does not work like that.
It goes out with I'm intoWarhammer.
I go and find the people thatare into Warhammer.
I this my son, not me.
I'm not into Warhammer, but heloves the building and the
painting and the arts and thecrafts and everything that go
(29:20):
with it.
And then he likes thecompetition and the chess-like
strategy moves and the fact thatit's all monsters and he loves
it.
So a little bit of magicalstuff as well in there at times.
So I love that.
I love watching his spark comeup like that.
But that's community, sharedinterest.
And the more diverse communityis, I get the school's argument,
(29:42):
they're absolutely correct.
The more diverse our communityis, the better.
But do you see school systemsembracing diversity?
Because I don't.
I see them othering anybody whodoes not fit the profile.
And the profile is a strictlymeasured thing.
It's not teachers, it's noteven schools, it's a system that
(30:02):
says this way, this is themeasurement.
And if we can't measure it, wedon't value it.
And that leaves the creativechildren.
Even Sir Ken Robinson wastalking about this, and his
services to education are beyondcompare, I think.
But Peter Gray talks about thevalue of play as the integrative
part of learning.
(30:22):
And I couldn't agree more withthese people.
Is if we've got creativechildren, how do you measure
that?
Their final drawing or all theeffort they put into getting it
the way they wanted it to be.
You know, we're not measuringthings.
We don't value it if we can'tmeasure it.
And I think we're the poorerfor that.
If we use that as this hugemetric beast that we've got
(30:42):
going on everywhere betweenhealth systems, policing
systems, you know, justicesystems, and our education
system.
There is so many systems somassively integrated that it's
hard to unpick yourself from it.
And that's been our challengeas well is that what is
community?
As you say, what is community?
(31:03):
Will has a larger communitythan most children his age,
because when we cruised, wecruised with an awful lot of
retired people, and he ended upwith about 80 grandparents on
the ship that he made friendswith, that he played games with,
that he valued and who valuedhim, who were a supportive,
(31:24):
wise, it was almost like anelders moment for me.
It was just wonderful, justthese people just sharing their
knowledge and sharing theirexperience.
And he was ballroom dancing atone point because he wanted to
support somebody who was missinga husband.
And I thought, this iswonderful.
This is community.
This is just as much communityas you know, going to school and
(31:44):
saying that, well, what theseother four-year-olds are like
you, five-year-olds are likeyou, you know, you you're all
the same age.
You're not alike, you're justthe same age.
That's not that's how weencourage community at school.
And if you speak to schoolabout social difficulties that
your child may be having, youknow, your playground moments
and your online bullying, thefirst thing the school will say
(32:06):
is, we're not here forfriendship.
Which is really interestingbecause when you say I'm
thinking of home educating, thefirst thing they say is, they
won't learn social skills.
And I'm thinking, well, they'renot really learning the peer
either.
Cecilie Conrad (32:19):
We always said that the social skills they can
learn only in school and nowhereelse, are social skills we
don't really want them to learn.
Yeah, with you.
Yeah.
How to find, how to fit, how tofit in, how to bully, how to
avoid bullying.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, so and also I think truecommunity, the kind of community
(32:42):
we need, and that we might bemorally obliged to contribute
to, is a network ofrelationships between real
people who can contribute withwhat lights them up, as you say,
who can contribute with thingsthey are good at, that they can
(33:02):
do with love, that they can dopassionately and therefore well.
That's what we need.
It's not about who can do it,it's about appreciating that
someone's doing it with love.
In a school setting, everyoneare all the time told what to do
and what outcome they are toaim for, and whether they did
that well or not.
(33:23):
That's not passion.
You're not going to learn whoyou are and what you're good at
to do things with passion in aschool setting because there is
no wiggle room.
Victoria Lenormand (33:33):
In fact, you can learn all the wrong things,
huh?
You can't.
My son was unwittingly learningall the wrong things that he
had no worth, that he had novalue.
I learned that I'm not good atmath, I'm great at English, I'm
not good at math.
Very similar to what you that'swhat I learned at school.
I'm investigating fraud.
That's not because I'm poor atmath, it's just nobody gave me
(33:53):
the links and connections tomake until I needed to.
And I was like, huh, I can doit like this.
Now I understand it.
And I think that disconnect ismore pronounced now than it ever
has been.
You know, our eldest son,again, high grades throughout
the schooling thing, still comesto me with okay, I'm exchanging
currency in this in thiscountry at the moment.
(34:14):
I'm trying to work out how muchto uh I'm thinking, yeah, it's
uh that's interesting, isn't it?
It's a very practical, groundedmath skill there that you're
struggling with, but you have anA in math.
Cecilie Conrad (34:26):
Victoria, your is very interesting.
Jesper Conrad (34:28):
Your own personal development choosing to
homeschool a child.
Yeah, what have happened inyour own perspective of looking
back at your life?
Have you rekindled your joy oflearning?
What what changes have therebeen?
Victoria Lenormand (34:46):
Yeah, it's uh I I think I'm I really check
in with my own goals now to makesure that they're mine, that
they're they're aligned with me.
There are things that I reallyI really care about.
I'm not gonna fib and say thatafter being in years of a
disciplined service, that I'mnot really loving the ability to
say no, thank you.
Yeah, no, thank you.
(35:07):
That's not for me.
That's okay.
But you know, but I'm trustingthat's somebody's, that's okay.
That it is somebody's gonnalight somebody up, it's just not
me.
And encouraging that in mychildren has been that's been
pivotal for us as a family toalign with even even our elders,
like I say, is getting highgrades in school, but wants to
(35:28):
be in musical theater.
The narrative that, and he washe, you know, he loved his
school.
He was you're not notcritiquing it in any way, shape,
or form, but the narrative waswith you know, yeah, is that a
career he can rely on?
You know, is it that's a dodgy,that's a dodgy industry.
And you think, is thereanything, something you can rely
on?
Is it this is lighting him up,and this is what he wants to do.
(35:52):
And he is now he's now livinghis very best life with a
contract on a on a cruise ship,traveling, which is what he
loves, and he's on the stagejust about every night doing
what he loves.
So consequently, a very, veryhappy person in his early 20s
because he's following thatpath.
He's not stressed out, going, Istudied all of this and I've
(36:14):
got to make a career of it, andI've done and I'm hating it, I'm
hating it.
And I'm thinking, I'm glad, I'mglad that's not your path right
now.
But things have a season, maybesome things have a season.
I try to tell the childrenyou'll meet people that might
hang around for a season andsome people that might be here
for life.
It they are when they're here,you know, that it is what it is.
(36:35):
It's don't be afraid to let goand never be afraid to change
something that isn't working foryou.
If it's not working, come backto where if you've got a nice
solid base here, which was whatI was most concerned about with
our young guest, is you havingthat solid base means you can
always completely rely on you toget this done.
(36:55):
Yes, community is important, Ibut you've got to know who you
are first to know what giftsyou're bringing to that
community, to look at where youcan exchange those gifts and
what you exchange it for.
It could be purely energetic,it could be financial.
There are many ways of buildingcommunity and sharing those
gifts.
But if your child doesn't knowwhat gift they're bringing and
(37:18):
they're just fitting a box, howlong do we go on before we
realize that box isn't us?
You know, it's actually no, um,you've put me over here, but I
I don't feel I belong there.
I'm wondering if that'sactually quite a big feeder for
our mental health crisis with alot of our young people at the
moment is the fact they don'tknow who they are.
Cecilie Conrad (38:20):
I think it is.
I think it's not even for justfor the young people.
I think a lot of people livethat life.
I think a lot of the crisis,the midlife crisis, all the
crises you hear about you'resupposed to have in your life.
Uh they're like planned out,like your years in school, you
do this exam, and then whenyou're 50, this crisis.
Victoria Lenormand (38:39):
And we've always made it a permissive
expectation, haven't we?
Of you're allowed to have amidlife crisis because we
recognize this happens.
Well, it probably would if Inever knew who I was.
Cecilie Conrad (38:49):
What if I just did what I wanted all along?
Do I have to retire before Itravel?
You know, there are all thesequestions.
Victoria Lenormand (38:57):
But that's the key, isn't it?
It's asking the question,giving yourself the space to ask
the question.
And I think that we get sobusy, maybe we just don't ask
anymore.
Jesper Conrad (39:09):
Besides not asking, then finding the time to
ponder and find it.
Cecilie Conrad (39:14):
I think it's exhausting sometimes to have to
rethink my life all the time.
And sometimes I love thatstructure, just to get up in the
morning, do something.
At the end of the year,there'll be an exam, and they
tell me I did well, and I can Ican comb back my hair, put up a
shiny dress, and have a glass ofchampagne, and then I can press
repeat and easy.
(39:34):
Yeah, no responsibility, nothinking, no personality, no
wiggle room.
It's not my fault in dog mealsbecause it's the system.
Oh I see, I see the draw.
Jesper Conrad (39:48):
Yeah, in my dark hours, I dream myself back to an
office job.
Cecilie Conrad (39:52):
Oh god, that's very dark hours.
Jesper Conrad (39:56):
I was just just let someone else decide.
Just give me a schedule.
Victoria Lenormand (40:01):
Well, because we're stationary now and
Will's got a bit more routinethat he has chosen, this
training program, you know, hishis scouting and explorer, you
know, interests.
You know, when when thatroutine started to come in, my
husband and I took some time torest a little bit, you know.
It's just like he doesn't needus right now.
(40:21):
I'm just gonna enjoy thismoment, you know.
But I'm actually not needed.
He's busy, he's doing histhing, and he's actually very
content and happy.
And I don't want to beumbrellaing that in any way.
I don't want to have ahelicopter, I don't want to
umbrella it.
I just want to check in, you'regood.
Those golden nugget moments,aren't they, at that point of
like, you're good, you're happy,tell me about your day.
You know, we've got plenty ofplaces where we connect during
(40:43):
the day, anyhow.
So I but it was it didn't takelong before both of us, so used
to working so hard, suddenlythought, oh boredom.
It's been a while since I'vebeen here.
I'm I'm actually bored.
I I don't think I've been boredsince I was a child, and that
was great, you know.
Not as a child, but now I'mlike I'm actually bored.
(41:04):
What am I gonna do next?
That's the next question, isn'tit?
What am I gonna do?
What's do I feel called todoing anything right now?
No, okay, just stay here then.
And then there was there wassome work that came up, and my
initial resistance was an alarmclock in the morning telling me
to get up and go off to thisparticular location for a reason
that I might not be connectedwith.
(41:26):
The overall work, yeah,potentially, you know, this is
supporting.
Young adults with autism in thecommunity to help live a more
independent life, life skills.
And I thought if he doesn'tneed me as much, I wouldn't mind
seeing if I can contributethere as well.
So let's go into that space andsee if I can contribute.
(41:47):
But it took quite a lot for meto put boundaries around that.
Initially, the employer didn'twant to know.
It's like I can't work Sunday.
Sunday's rugby.
And it's really important thatI'm there.
And no, I'm not going to beworking.
Oh, well, if you can't give meeverything, I don't want
anything from you.
And I thought, well, that'sfine.
You can sit in that.
That's not a problem.
You can sit in that.
Before they re-thought, I said,if you can't do Sunday, how
(42:10):
much flexibility have you gotthrough the rest of the week?
And I said, actually, the restof the week is fine.
It's just Sunday that issacrosanct.
That's not negotiable.
There's a boundary.
I have never put that kind ofboundary in before.
Shift work, everything else,I've never had that kind of
boundary.
And this time I did.
So it was good for me to dothat and then say, no, Sundays
(42:30):
are sacrosanct.
And I can offer you 20 hours aweek, fairly regularly, but I'm
trying it.
This is a trial for our family.
And if it doesn't work for myfamily, you're kind of on notice
as an employer that I won't bestaying.
My interest is in learning tosupport people with life skills,
but at the same time balancingmy family needs.
(42:54):
And if that goes out of kilta,no, I won't be doing it.
I need to find something.
And it suddenly changed theconversation with my employer.
Now running around a little bitmore after me saying, Is
everything okay?
Are you happy?
Are you this?
Are we going to be keeping you?
And you think, I'm a valuableasset.
Takes a lot, doesn't it, for usto say that kind of thing.
It's actually I'm a valuableasset.
(43:15):
I've spent the last six yearsteaching somebody with an autism
profile of a type to developlife skills and bits and be and
these children have gone throughschool, some of them have got
incredible exams, but can'tfunction in life.
You know, they're they'rebringing in the house and
bringing in all the adult thingsthat we have to consider, it's
(43:37):
overwhelmed and it's gotten toomuch.
So giving them the tools andthe abilities to do that is
something it's going to be aprocess.
And absolutely I'm interestedin that, but it has to balance.
Cecilie Conrad (43:48):
But isn't it?
Do you don't you think that thereason this so rarely happens,
what you just did, is the fearthat's so deeply installed in
the schooled person that I mean,I used to be that person.
I went to school for 23 yearsnon-stop from kindergarten
(44:08):
through university.
And so you come out and you'rejust so used to it has to be.
It's such a constant, and it'slike the teeth in your mouth.
You can't imagine not it's notthere.
And it's the same way the job,you have to have that job.
You just have to have it, youhave to make it work.
Take that out of the equationand make a personal choice.
(44:28):
It takes a lot of courage,yeah, and that's a courage you
don't develop if you don't havethe chance to grow up making
mistakes, being who you are, dowhat lights you up, do the whole
trust the process thing.
Yeah, I might let go right now.
I don't know what's going on,but I feel my way.
(44:49):
I have my intuition, I have myheart in front.
I I do know that I can thinktoo, but the brain is more like
a tool I use when I have a jobto do.
And sometimes I don't know whatI'm doing, so I'm gonna have to
wait and just all of that, thatkind of life strategy, is just
not something that's supportedat all in what the kids learn
(45:13):
all the way through the system.
So you come out, and the nextstep is to have a job, and then
at some point you'll be 40, andthere's the obligatory crisis,
and you know, there are thethings you're right, it's like a
treadmill, isn't it?
Victoria Lenormand (45:25):
It's almost like a factory turnout of uh
this state and this data andthis station.
It's almost scripted, you know.
If you if you partake at anearly stage, you it's almost
scripted for you.
Do you question what is not onthe sheet in front of you?
You know, do you or do youfocus so much on answering the
questions that have been posedthat you don't actually ask your
(45:48):
own?
And that becomes the challenge,doesn't it?
Is I found it when I wasworking, when I was policing
investigation for me is aboutasking questions gently.
It's about asking questionsabout what's serving and what
isn't, what's working and whatisn't.
Can we do that without bysaying, hey, there's a mistake
here, we can learn from that andmove on.
(46:10):
Why are we so reluctant tohonor the mistake process?
You know, the fact that we wentdown this line, it doesn't
work.
Let's try a different one.
Or let's look at what does workor who's doing it well.
Let's not there because thereare we know as you say, many
cultures, many countries, manyplaces.
This is where we're brilliant.
Is some people somewhere havedeveloped something wonderful,
(46:32):
and it's working so much better.
And nine times out of ten,these things that they've
developed that are wonderful arekinder for the community that
that serves.
The idea that we all fit in oneparticular space, that's just
doesn't work, it never has.
We're not we are brilliant inour diversity, but our schools
(46:55):
and our justice system and ourhealth system does not reflect
the diversity that we have, justdoesn't.
Yeah, and it's getting worse.
But we can hold it, like yousay.
With when you asked wherehomeschooling fits in that, for
me, we were the first.
We're part of a branch ofthings that are growing out of
(47:17):
broken systems.
So whether that's homeeducating or alternative
educating, that's more prevalentnow, maybe, than it ever has
been.
There are more people turningto alternative justice systems,
alternative health systems.
There will, and we're part ofthat alternative branch that's
coming up that gives peoplechoice.
You're talking your podcast isgoing to give people insight
(47:40):
into what it could look like.
And the fact that that is aswide and diverse as all of us,
that's amazing.
Cecilie Conrad (47:47):
But that is why we're podcasting, yeah,
basically, because we just wantto open some windows in that
box, and and then you can,whether you're inside the box or
not, you can peek through allthe holes and get some ideas
about what other options arethere out there.
What do people come up with andwhy, and and where did they
land, how did it go, how do theyfeel, and just so that if that
(48:11):
mainstream it has quite a lot ofcurrency, you know, mainstream
is hard, it's hard to changedirection from that.
You know, like you're on themotorway and and and everyone's
going fast and in thisdirection, you can't just turn
your you know, you'll die.
There has to be some sort of,but where are the exits?
And and so that's why we'refasting, basically.
(48:33):
That's why we're taking thetime, just to make sure the
other options are not a secret.
Yes, exactly.
You'll find it, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (48:43):
Yeah, Victoria, to find a place to round up.
I will try to, and it would beunfair to the long conversation,
but to kind of sum it up intogoing from false to service and
asking ourselves, what kind ofservice can I be to my
(49:05):
community?
I really like that uhperspective you put into my mind
there.
And then also turn it over toyou.
If people want to know moreabout your story, more about how
you are of service, is there away they can connect with you?
Do you have a home page?
How do they find you?
What service are you doing forthe world besides what you have
(49:26):
shared with us?
Victoria Lenormand (49:27):
Well, with our with our youngest son's
help, we've developed a smallbusiness called Gemini
Directions.
And there are there's awebsite, geminidirections.co.uk,
and you can find our book thatwe wrote.
So I finally did the writingthing I always wanted to do, and
I wrote the book, and I'mreally pleased with it.
But it gives an insight intothe journey of a fairly typical
(49:50):
family whose home education hadjust not been on the radar for
and how we got there.
So it documents our journeythere.
It documents the tools we usedand the thinking that came up
for us that may help supportother people in the direction
that they want to go in.
So that was the purpose ofwriting that book in the first
place.
And that's called the magic ofnot fitting in.
(50:11):
And you find it on our website,anyhow.
As well as that, we hold circlespaces around the full moon and
the new moon for some peoplewho are looking at making a bit
of a shift in themselves to say,I'm not asking questions and I
need a place to put this thatfeels safe.
We've made it accessible andonline for people so that you
(50:31):
know, especially for autismfamilies, one of the things we
discovered was the isolationthat came with that.
We can't go out, you couldn'tdo this, you were unwelcome in
places.
People come online in thejammies, and it's so much nicer.
No, no judgment, no nothing ina circle space.
And then there's there's aprocess, you know, we've we've
got different levels of coursesand community, and that is
(50:52):
developing around there.
So we have a parentingcommunity, like a send community
there that are looking atautism, things that are coming
up, parents sharing strategiesand information that they're
using without judgment.
Again, it's just sharedinformation of like, it's here
if you want it.
Or I just need to talk becauseI'm in a difficult place right
now.
(51:12):
I just need somewhere to putthat safe because that people
are reaching out to servicesthat aren't able to respond.
So it's trying to be a placewhere the community is the
parents that are have eitherbeen there or are going through
it and are supporting eachother.
So it grows there.
So there's kind of a holisticspiritual, metaphysical meets
(51:34):
the science, meets the need ofwe're growing something
different.
It's birthing somethingdifferent, and it's organic and
it's growing the way we are.
So it'll it will move andchange potentially as well.
And if people come in with aneed, they let me know and we
look at what we can do to meetit.
But you can find us there.
It's an offering.
Jesper Conrad (51:54):
I love it.
Victoria, thanks a lot for yourtime.
It was wonderful chatting toyou today.
Victoria Lenormand (52:00):
Brilliant.
Thank you ever so much.
Thank you.
It's been great.
It was fun.
Today we're together with Victoria
Lynnormond, and she is in UK andwe are in Spain.
So, first of all, Victoria,wonderful to meet you.
And how's the weather in goodold UK?
Victoria Lenormand (00:23):
Uh-oh.
First of all, thank you forhaving me.
Thanks for the invite.
And yeah, it's a little chillyhere today.
It's bright, but it's chilly.
So it's a nice winter's day, Iwould say.
Approaching winter.
Jesper Conrad (00:34):
Yes, and as well here, but we will hit the beach
later as it's the water is cold,but uh it's still wonderful.
The sun is out, and we will goget some sunlight.
Victoria, I got an email askingif we wanted an and it was a
fun phrasing, ex-detectiveturned homeschooler.
(00:55):
And I was like, so what has youdetected earlier in life?
Which kind of detective?
Victoria Lenormand (01:03):
It's a lifelong learning experience,
isn't it?
But yeah, initially I was aprofessional police officer,
detective, investigator.
I spent 28 years over a courseof that part of my life when I
left school.
I wanted to be a writer.
That's all I wanted to do waswrite.
But I had some back surgerythat was a little unexpected,
and it kind of put paid to howmuch support I would have from
(01:26):
school.
I'd been previously a goodstudent, but kind of abandoned
at the point that I neededsurgery.
And it was going to take aboutthree months for me to be able
to be back in school.
And it was coming up to examtimes.
And I think that was when Ifirst started questioning what
does this mean?
I've worked hard all thisperiod, and now I'm going to be
(01:47):
graded and told that I'm notgoing to do very well because of
this huge period of absence.
And it was kind of making mefeel like my value was actually
being questioned through nofault of my own.
I needed surgery on my back.
That was it.
There was nothing I could doabout it.
I had to heal.
And it was going to take timebefore I was safe to be in that
collective student environmentagain.
(02:07):
So I get that happened young.
That definitely left its mark.
Although I changed directionfairly happily.
I joined police service.
I thought it would be a nice,varied career.
It's community-centric.
It would be giving back.
That changed.
And I changed.
That changed.
My second son arrived andwasn't fitting the narrative of
(02:31):
our education system at all.
So I think the old, the oldthoughts, the old questions
started to come up as I couldsee with him that he was
starting to equate his personalvalue to this grading system.
And that's what came back upagain for me.
And I felt really quite letdown that that was still
happening.
And in fact, it seemed to besignificantly worse.
(02:53):
I'd learned over time that thatwas not my value.
And I still question the valueof grading children in that way.
I just think it's unhelpful totheir well-being.
So that's what made me changedirection.
Change of service focus fromservice to force, which I didn't
align with.
And then my child being gradedlike three, age three, age four,
(03:19):
unwelcome, pathologizingbehavior as like autism and
sensory processing issues.
We've got all these diagnoses,and it really started to get me
questioning actually, what am Idoing here?
What am I doing?
I'm when I look at my child athome, I can see a very active,
creative little boy who's quitedetermined to go in this
(03:43):
direction.
And I think where he'sstruggling is that he doesn't
align with somebody else'sgoals.
And is that any different to mepolicing for all those years
with a community-centric goaland my organization changing
focus to a force goal?
So maybe there was something inthat.
Jesper Conrad (04:02):
To protect by force, if that's what it's
called now.
Victoria Lenormand (04:05):
I can't see how that could possibly work.
It just doesn't, it doesn't,it's not community-centric, and
it is not we're supposed toreflect our community.
There wasn't enough funding puttowards the strategies that
work really well, likerestorative justice and
community support, communitypolicing.
That just all stopped in favorof two people in a car, more in
(04:28):
a van, lots and lots of show offorce.
And I thought, not sure I'm onboard here.
In fact, pretty certain I'mnot.
I wonder how effective thatcould possibly be when you're
always going to be outnumbered.
I just wonder who's kiddingthemselves really.
Cecilie Conrad (04:43):
But are they kidding themselves though?
Or I'm afraid a lot of peopleactually believe in these
strategies.
Victoria Lenormand (04:50):
What people?
Cecilie Conrad (04:52):
Well, those who construct the school system,
those who make the decision thatwe will just uh show police
force rather than do preventivework.
People making decisions, and Ihope they believe in their
philosophy.
Because if they don't, wouldmost likely because be because
(05:13):
they didn't stop to think aboutit or didn't bother, or no, I
don't even want to think thatthrough.
Victoria Lenormand (05:20):
Yeah, that's I know it's hard, isn't it?
It's hard to look at thatreflection.
I mean it certainly was for meto think why is this happening?
Because I can't see the logic,the sense, or the reasoning
behind it.
It's not.
I was part of a very smallcommunity in the south of
England and then later on on asmall island community.
So community is the very basisof what policing has its roots
(05:44):
in.
It's about social justice atthe very beginning.
It was about balancing thatinjustice in in that field.
It was not, well, it certainlywasn't my training that we were
here for as an absolutely largeresort.
So why add it to the title?
If that's deliberate, itworries me.
If it's not deliberate, itequally worries me.
(06:05):
And I'm just concerned now.
I'm so concerned I can't lookin the mirror and align with it.
So I'm gonna have to move.
Jesper Conrad (06:13):
Victoria, was there during your service?
Didn't it change the name frompolice something to police
force?
Victoria Lenormand (06:21):
Exactly.
It changed from police service.
I joined a police service andit changed to police force about
five years before I left, fouror five years before I left.
So I wondered if it was justgoing to be in the name, and
then it didn't feel like it wasa name.
It felt like it was less it wasmore about budgets and saving
(06:42):
money, and rather thandelivering a service, then
delivering is something that wascheaper and more
cost-effective.
Jesper Conrad (06:48):
And interesting change in words, I must say.
Victoria Lenormand (06:53):
Yeah.
Jesper Conrad (06:53):
Yeah.
Victoria, some of the thingsyou talk about make me think on
my own life.
I like many other who ends upin homeschooling and
unschooling, etc., comes from aschool background.
I come from a public schoolbackground.
Yeah.
And it can be difficult for meto look at my life and say, what
(07:15):
comes from being brought up inthis and what is basically
human.
Sometimes I can question my ownoutcome-based focus in life.
Yes.
I want to produce, I feel moreproud when I've created
something than when I don'thave.
And when I have a negative lenson, oh, it's because it comes
(07:37):
from the school system,sometimes I then also judge, oh,
but yes, but your hobby iscarving spoons, and that's
outcome-based.
But it's also fun doing.
And there is diskeuteness in mymind where I cannot figure out
to totally figure out where Istand with it because outcome is
(07:59):
not bad.
But if we do it for the outcomeonly and not for enjoying the
process, then it's bad.
And sometimes we got just getconfused about oh, where am I
with this?
Is am I doing it because of theresult or am I doing it because
I enjoy the process?
Victoria Lenormand (08:16):
Yeah.
I was looking at my son througha similar thing.
Yeah.
Sorry, I missed that.
Cecilie Conrad (08:21):
No, I said maybe it's a little bit of both every
time.
Victoria Lenormand (08:24):
I was looking at my son at this
particular point.
I didn't have a bad career.
Like I say, I spent 28 years inthat service and until I felt
misaligned.
And I think that's always thekey.
Maybe something that came froma combination of that nature
nurture thing that you'redescribing.
What's my nature?
What am I drawn to?
(08:45):
What do I enjoy doing?
And then what I have the energyfor that that lights me up.
When I say the energy for thethings that light me up that I
genuinely want to go and do, andI watch that in my children,
the things that light them up,they learn with ease.
It's just easy.
They just float through it.
When it's somebody else's goal,which is where I'm picking up
(09:05):
on where you were before, iswhen it's someone else's goal,
you if this again, there'salmost an element of forcing
yourself because I should.
Now, don't get me wrong, thereare days when I don't want to do
the laundry and I won't.
But if it's piling up and itneeds doing, it's I'm I may not
be feeling like it, but it'sgoing to get done.
There are the fewer of thosemoments I have, the easier
things flow, the easier thingsgo for us.
(09:28):
Is that there are some days,yes, I have to bite the bullet a
little bit because there's anecessity.
But if it's not entirelynecessary, how often do we check
in with ourselves?
Is this a necessary thing?
Is this something I need to doright now?
Or can I take some rest?
Can I?
Because there's a lot to besaid for the productivity that
comes from rest.
(09:48):
If I force myself, it rarelygoes well.
If I'm rested and I want to doit, it's a whole different ball
game, isn't it?
Cecilie Conrad (09:57):
We've just completed, almost completed
months.
Wait a minute, September,October, December, four months,
more like four months process ofhelping our third child with
her first life's first exam.
Victoria Lenormand (10:12):
Yeah.
Cecilie Conrad (10:13):
Children have decided that they want to go to
university, and in order to dothat in our country, you have to
do a university prep schoolthing.
It's a bit like high school,it's a bit different, a bit like
first year of college in yourcountry.
It's the school systems are notthe same in the different
cultures.
So they have to go through athree-year education in order to
(10:33):
get into university.
It's very hard to get aroundthat one.
So now they have to do thatafter being fully unschooled.
And for our third child, therewas the precursor that she had
to do a math exam.
So there's a placement test,and she failed the math part.
So she had to do the math part,and then she can do the
university prep school, and thenshe can do university.
This is all voluntary thingsthey want to do.
(10:56):
This child has decided early onin life that there were like
two things in academics.
So this is the three-year-olddeciding there's reading and
there's math.
And she really enjoyed reading.
Her logic at three was then Icannot like math because I have
to choose.
She didn't even know theconcept of dividing two numbers
(11:30):
four months ago.
Because she decided that's notfor me.
I don't like it.
I'm not doing it.
Forget it.
And I've never, you know, Idon't care much about that.
It's her choice, her life.
And so, but I also know, andI've been talking about math
many times in the context ofunschooling, because that's you
know, can they read?
What about math?
(11:50):
And do they have any friends?
They're like the three mainquestions.
And I've said, you know, youcan learn math in three or four
months when you're an adult, butyou can never relive your
childhood.
Nature happens only once inlife.
You can never win that back.
So why would we ruin theirchildhood with math and instead
of just letting them do itwhenever they feel like it?
(12:12):
And now we've done it.
It's been a voluntary process.
This child, it's the secondtime in now our unschooling
journey.
This happens, so I did knowthis will happen.
She sat down, and this is goingfrom K to whatever, something
like 10, 11 IGCSE level, Ithink, maybe eight, I don't know
(12:35):
exactly.
It's a lot of man.
She did it all in four monthsand she did it while we had
festivals going on, herboyfriend flying in and out,
driving to different countries,all kinds of things.
This 17-year-old girl pushedher therself through something
(12:55):
like 10, 11, 12 years of math infour months.
She just passed the exam.
We haven't gotten the result,but I went through the questions
I can see of 120 points shecould get.
I she has at least 110.
So she's good.
She passed it.
This is motivation working foryou.
This is when you want to do it.
(13:15):
It's done, it's not hard.
And you go for your goal andyou choose to do so.
It might be at two o'clock inthe morning, it might be
canceling a movie night, itmight be whatever, having
sandwiches instead of fancymeals because now you're just
prioritizing this, and becauseyou want to do it, it becomes so
(13:40):
easy.
It's not a simple, it's notlike doing that, it's not
drinking, it's just and whenwhen she was finished and exam
was the next step, she told methe day before the exam, I'm
gonna miss this.
This was fun.
How why am I not doing mathtomorrow?
What what then what?
Victoria Lenormand (14:01):
Yeah, if you want to carry on.
So this is what we're saying touh to ours as well.
I mean, we have one our eldestwent through the school system,
went on to university, puthimself under all the pressure
that our kids put himself under.
We tried the whole, you know,it was right for him.
That's where he wanted to be.
Although, I have to say, hishis university studies,
(14:22):
everything that came frompredominantly an extracurricular
interest from the age of abouteight.
So he was going to school earlyfor choir and he loved to sing.
And then come secondary school,he found the drama in the
stage, and then he put the twotogether for musical theater and
found his love in life.
That was it, and it just flowedthe picking up an instrument
(14:44):
and teaching himself the wholething.
So most of it was he was achild who could be in that
environment, and it didn'treally phase him too much unless
somebody would question hiseffort on a particular subject
that clearly had a lower levelof interest in.
And you think, well, you'refollowing your interest, go
there.
It's fine.
When you're 18, 19, 20, peoplestop asking about what grade you
(15:09):
got in every subject and startasking about what interest you
have.
I assure you, this is whathappens.
Our youngest was literallybeing graded from the off.
It felt like colours.
No, check this, check this,check.
What they kept missing in hisand what he was missing was the
integration of that learning.
(15:29):
And that was the bit that wherewe had these diagnoses of
autism, sensory processingstuff.
He was, he was, unlike hisolder brother, he was not happy
in that environment.
It was not something he couldtolerate from the lighting to
the chaos to the switchingsubjects every 30 minutes.
I've just got into this, andshe's telling me to stop.
(15:50):
And I, but I've just got intoit, and now I'm interested, and
she wants me to stop and go dosomething else.
And I'm like, well, no, I wantto see what happened.
They asked me to come into theschool at one point.
Like in in literally the spaceof 10 minutes, they had the kids
sitting around in a circle.
Ah, that sounds nice.
They put these flowers incolored water, and they got this
(16:11):
science experiment going at theback of the room.
Well, my son is instantly drawnto that.
Is that what's happening withthe flowers?
And he can't focus on anythingelse at that point.
And it's just being marked downbecause he can't focus on
anything but what's happeningwith these flowers.
You've told me somethinggreat's going to happen with
these flowers.
I'm looking at the flowers now,I'm just watching them very
patiently.
And I'm thinking, we can markhim for patience, interest, we
(16:36):
could mark him for very positivethings.
But instead, what we're doingis crossing the fact that he
can't shift as quickly as youwant him to, age three, which
then made him welcome unwelcomein the next stage of your
system.
And I honestly thought, whatare we we're abandoning and
judging kids age three, and hedoesn't line up well and he
(16:58):
doesn't.
I'm thinking, I'm not surethese are things I value.
H three.
I just not sure these arethings I value at all.
And I I'm trying to have aconversation, I'm trying to be
reasonable about it because, inall fairness, I was kind of
stuck on I have to go to work,so you have to go to school
because I couldn't see what hewas going to do, age three,
(17:22):
while I was busy investigatingfraud.
Just couldn't understand.
And then I thought, I think Ineed to change something for
this one.
This one does not respond wellin that environment.
And over a couple of years, theeffect on his well-being was
marked.
And I couldn't undo thatwithout the redress that we had
(17:46):
was to completely withdraw.
I mean, he was at the point ofI have no value, I have no worth
here, I cannot get on therainbow.
I don't understand what thepoint is of half of this stuff.
All I'm being told is howimportant it is, and that I
can't do it day after day.
And I'm thinking that wouldpretty much affect anybody's
(18:08):
mental health to a point we talkabout mental health, but I'm
talking about his holisticwell-being here.
And the fact that our systemcould not pivot for me as a
child.
And then again, for my ownyoungest son, I thought, it's
maybe it's not for everybody.
And that's okay.
That started the process ofwhat are we going to do?
So we moved into it.
(18:29):
Wasn't an overnight thing.
I was agonizing over this forquite some time, is to answer
that question.
How are we going to provide youwith a roof over your head and
feed you properly and do all theMaslows, basic things that
parents put in to be thenurturing mother I want to be?
Jesper Conrad (18:48):
Sorry, let me interject the question right
here.
Victoria Lenormand (18:53):
Yeah.
Jesper Conrad (18:54):
What on this point, where you started
questioning how was yourperspective of homeschoolers?
How big a knowledge did youhave?
Did you have friends who wereit?
And where were you?
Because it it can be a big stepif you know no one, it can be a
smaller step if you havefriends who are doing it.
And homeschooling is bigger.
(19:16):
So where were you on the wholeis this an option for us kind of
thing?
Victoria Lenormand (19:21):
I was in the the homeschooling, what's that?
Home unschooling, homeeducation.
What is that?
I it's not even on my radar.
It's never been on my radar.
I don't have friends in mycircle that unschool, home
educate, any of those things.
And I thought, right, I I justdon't know.
But Montessori schooling hadbeen on my radar, which was a
(19:44):
little bit different.
Again, a lot kinder to oureldest son.
Our youngest didn't fit that,but he does like, you know, it
was a lot kinder to our eldestson.
So I started looking atalternative schooling options at
that particular point.
And the only thing that keptcoming up was this barrier of
autism and how unwelcome thatwas, unless you went down these
(20:05):
really specialist lines, whichreally didn't.
didn't seem to put the child atthe center of what was needed.
And I that was what got melooking at home education, you
know, education from the home.
And learning for me has alwaysbeen a lifelong thing.
(20:26):
Every day I learn somethingnew.
It's not going to stop whenyou're 16.
Maybe I could bring that valueto it and take the pressure off,
you know, because that wasreally clear to me, is the
pressure really needed to comeoff of my child that, and that
just wasn't going to happen inthat environment.
This goal orientation, ifyou're a bit sensitive to
pressure or you've gone so fardown a spiral, you are now very
(20:49):
sensitive to pressure.
Then, you know, I think thatthat was my focus at that point.
So I looked at local communityon the small island that I lived
on, that it wasn't huge.
And there's only so muchvariety on a small island
without traveling.
And then I understood how muchmy son likes experiential
learning, likes to be in it.
(21:09):
You know, he learns by doing somuch better.
That that integrated knowledge,I think, is the most valuable
rather than just, I just knowthis from a book, but I haven't
got a clue how to apply it.
So we we went, we started to godown that exploration when I
had a moment of we could try andrelook at our assets and how
(21:34):
they can work for us rather thanme working for assets.
So I flipped the script there,and then I flipped the script
from learning by the time you're16 and being exam and
goal-based to learning to knowwho you are and what you love,
and let's work from that, youknow, let's get you back into a
(21:54):
sense of self and your ownpersonal value.
So we changed the autismlanguage to a design, a human
design language of, you know,what do you love?
How do you work?
How does energy work for you?
What lights you up?
Let's discover that together.
And both my husband and Iwithdrew from the workplace,
redistributed our assets, rentedout our house and moved into
our motorhome and traveled forlike three years of let's go
(22:18):
find.
Let's go find what you'reinterested in.
Let's go show you that this isa really big world and not this
tiny small island that you thinkyou don't fit in.
There's going to be a place inthe world that you do.
When we weren't traveling inthe motorhome, we were lucky
enough.
I took retirement a littleearly, but I took early
retirement, decided to investthose funds in my child.
(22:40):
So it's been distributed tohis, you know, between him and
his brother.
They've got a very smallbusiness that they're looking,
they're working together, youknow, around a property.
Do they, you know, do theydevelop it?
How does that work?
How does it so the life skillsare dripping out of that?
And then we traveled.
We traveled with with, youknow, we've cruised, we've gone
(23:01):
in the motorhome, we've gone andtrained, and we've gone on, and
and we just keep going whereverhis interest is.
Right now, we're based inGlasgow.
Our eldest son went touniversity here, absolutely
loved it.
Our youngest fell in love withScotland.
It's the outdoorsy life.
It's the climbing, the walking,the hiking, it's the all the
activity that he loves, andparticularly rugby, scouting.
(23:24):
Suddenly that all came back.
When he started to like himselfa bit more, he wanted to
socialise again.
Whereas before he washermit-like, completely
withdrawn.
Now we're six years into ourunschooling journey.
We tried the what do we dofirst?
And we had some books at home.
And, you know, we started to gothrough the books until there
(23:45):
was resistance.
And I thought, I'm not going toforce it.
I'm not going to force it.
I don't believe in that.
So, what's going to happen if Ijust leave him with the day?
What's going to happen with histime?
How's he going to directhimself?
And he does.
He directs himself every day toright now, it's nutrition,
rugby.
It previously has been ancienthistory.
He's really interested in, wewere talking earlier about the
(24:08):
Romans, you know.
So we traveled to sites that hecould learn from, you know,
he's traveled to Greece to havea look at the ancient history
there, you know, desperatelywants to go to Egypt, but
timing's not right for us at themoment.
And it'll but he, I said thereare some things you can put on
your wish list for for later ofplaces that you want to see and
why you want to see it.
Maybe explore a little more ofwhat else you want to see.
(24:30):
But yeah, right now it's rugby.
He's uh so we're stationary inGlasgow, just as he's training
sort of four times a week, andhe's now on a rugby development
pathway because this is whathe's loving.
So it's a totally differentchange, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (24:46):
If you want to put Egypt on your list, then I
recommend August 27th.
There's a full solar eclipsethat will last for four minutes.
Victoria Lenormand (24:57):
Really?
2027, right?
Jesper Conrad (24:59):
2027, yeah.
Victoria Lenormand (25:00):
So you're 2027, excellent.
August 2027.
Jesper Conrad (25:05):
I've seen one on we saw one that was uh one and a
half or almost two minutes.
That's stunning.
But four minutes I I can't waitto experience it.
Everyone will come.
Cecilie Conrad (25:27):
I was thinking we talked in the beginning about
community.
You use the word community manytimes, and that's um main focus
and a passion for us.
And it's also one of the mainquestions that always circles
circulates around theunschooling.
Do they have any friends?
But it's also a questionunschoolers get.
(25:49):
What about community?
You're pulling your childrenout of the community, you're not
contributing, and you know, wehave the public schooling, you
probably have the same inEngland.
There's this high moral in ourcountry that you put your child
in the public schooling to bepart of the mix.
And if you take all theresourceful families, take their
children out of the publicschooling, well, then how are we
(26:13):
going to live together?
Which I'm I kind of like theidea, but my child is not a
lifting.
I need a word.
You know, the thing you use forcars when you lift it to change
the tire.
Yeah, it's like public school,the whole idea is broken, and my
child is not going to be thesolution or tool to solve it.
(26:33):
Yes, I find community.
I mean, who are we even?
And what can we?
There's no, it's like water,there's no life without
community.
There's no we all really needit, and we know so.
Some maybe more in theforefront of of cognition than
(26:54):
others, but we all know wedepend on each other.
If you would talk a bit,something fell in the other room
and I got distracted.
I'm sorry.
(27:42):
So, what are your thoughts?
And who are we as homeeducators community-wise?
Victoria Lenormand (27:52):
I think, I mean, it's not new, it's been
it's been around longer than Iever realized, that's for sure.
I I've I knew that when I firststarted exploring it, some
people have been drawn theirchildren on religious grounds,
and some people, and that youknow, communities had grown
here, and that some some peoplehad uh really butted up against
the system.
More and more people seem to behaving this special educational
(28:16):
needs diagnosis, you know, andand that these families are
pulling their children out indroves at the moment, which is
certainly over in the UK, it'scausing huge political unrest
that and greater levels ofcontrol as to what how home
educators educate.
And like you say, one of thosebig arguments is socialization.
(28:36):
Now, the funny thing is, when Italk, when I talk about autism,
socialization is one of thetriads of impairments, one of
the difficulties.
I'm watching my sonsuccessfully socialize with
people that he has sharedinterests with.
It's the way the schoolmeasures socialization that
makes it unsuccessful.
The idea that people, becausethey're the same age, should all
(28:59):
get along is utterlyridiculous.
None of us do that.
I don't go out and look foranother 52-year-old person and
go, hey, we've got everything incommon.
It does not work like that.
It goes out with I'm intoWarhammer.
I go and find the people thatare into Warhammer.
I this my son, not me.
I'm not into Warhammer, but heloves the building and the
painting and the arts and thecrafts and everything that go
(29:20):
with it.
And then he likes thecompetition and the chess-like
strategy moves and the fact thatit's all monsters and he loves
it.
So a little bit of magicalstuff as well in there at times.
So I love that.
I love watching his spark comeup like that.
But that's community, sharedinterest.
And the more diverse communityis, I get the school's argument,
(29:42):
they're absolutely correct.
The more diverse our communityis, the better.
But do you see school systemsembracing diversity?
Because I don't.
I see them othering anybody whodoes not fit the profile.
And the profile is a strictlymeasured thing.
It's not teachers, it's noteven schools, it's a system that
(30:02):
says this way, this is themeasurement.
And if we can't measure it, wedon't value it.
And that leaves the creativechildren.
Even Sir Ken Robinson wastalking about this, and his
services to education are beyondcompare, I think.
But Peter Gray talks about thevalue of play as the integrative
part of learning.
(30:22):
And I couldn't agree more withthese people.
Is if we've got creativechildren, how do you measure
that?
Their final drawing or all theeffort they put into getting it
the way they wanted it to be.
You know, we're not measuringthings.
We don't value it if we can'tmeasure it.
And I think we're the poorerfor that.
If we use that as this hugemetric beast that we've got
(30:42):
going on everywhere betweenhealth systems, policing
systems, you know, justicesystems, and our education
system.
There is so many systems somassively integrated that it's
hard to unpick yourself from it.
And that's been our challengeas well is that what is
community?
As you say, what is community?
(31:03):
Will has a larger communitythan most children his age,
because when we cruised, wecruised with an awful lot of
retired people, and he ended upwith about 80 grandparents on
the ship that he made friendswith, that he played games with,
that he valued and who valuedhim, who were a supportive,
(31:24):
wise, it was almost like anelders moment for me.
It was just wonderful, justthese people just sharing their
knowledge and sharing theirexperience.
And he was ballroom dancing atone point because he wanted to
support somebody who was missinga husband.
And I thought, this iswonderful.
This is community.
This is just as much communityas you know, going to school and
(31:44):
saying that, well, what theseother four-year-olds are like
you, five-year-olds are likeyou, you know, you you're all
the same age.
You're not alike, you're justthe same age.
That's not that's how weencourage community at school.
And if you speak to schoolabout social difficulties that
your child may be having, youknow, your playground moments
and your online bullying, thefirst thing the school will say
(32:06):
is, we're not here forfriendship.
Which is really interestingbecause when you say I'm
thinking of home educating, thefirst thing they say is, they
won't learn social skills.
And I'm thinking, well, they'renot really learning the peer
either.
Cecilie Conrad (32:19):
We always said that the social skills they can
learn only in school and nowhereelse, are social skills we
don't really want them to learn.
Yeah, with you.
Yeah.
How to find, how to fit, how tofit in, how to bully, how to
avoid bullying.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, so and also I think truecommunity, the kind of community
(32:42):
we need, and that we might bemorally obliged to contribute
to, is a network ofrelationships between real
people who can contribute withwhat lights them up, as you say,
who can contribute with thingsthey are good at, that they can
(33:02):
do with love, that they can dopassionately and therefore well.
That's what we need.
It's not about who can do it,it's about appreciating that
someone's doing it with love.
In a school setting, everyoneare all the time told what to do
and what outcome they are toaim for, and whether they did
that well or not.
(33:23):
That's not passion.
You're not going to learn whoyou are and what you're good at
to do things with passion in aschool setting because there is
no wiggle room.
Victoria Lenormand (33:33):
In fact, you can learn all the wrong things,
huh?
You can't.
My son was unwittingly learningall the wrong things that he
had no worth, that he had novalue.
I learned that I'm not good atmath, I'm great at English, I'm
not good at math.
Very similar to what you that'swhat I learned at school.
I'm investigating fraud.
That's not because I'm poor atmath, it's just nobody gave me
(33:53):
the links and connections tomake until I needed to.
And I was like, huh, I can doit like this.
Now I understand it.
And I think that disconnect ismore pronounced now than it ever
has been.
You know, our eldest son,again, high grades throughout
the schooling thing, still comesto me with okay, I'm exchanging
currency in this in thiscountry at the moment.
(34:14):
I'm trying to work out how muchto uh I'm thinking, yeah, it's
uh that's interesting, isn't it?
It's a very practical, groundedmath skill there that you're
struggling with, but you have anA in math.
Cecilie Conrad (34:26):
Victoria, your is very interesting.
Jesper Conrad (34:28):
Your own personal development choosing to
homeschool a child.
Yeah, what have happened inyour own perspective of looking
back at your life?
Have you rekindled your joy oflearning?
What what changes have therebeen?
Victoria Lenormand (34:46):
Yeah, it's uh I I think I'm I really check
in with my own goals now to makesure that they're mine, that
they're they're aligned with me.
There are things that I reallyI really care about.
I'm not gonna fib and say thatafter being in years of a
disciplined service, that I'mnot really loving the ability to
say no, thank you.
Yeah, no, thank you.
(35:07):
That's not for me.
That's okay.
But you know, but I'm trustingthat's somebody's, that's okay.
That it is somebody's gonnalight somebody up, it's just not
me.
And encouraging that in mychildren has been that's been
pivotal for us as a family toalign with even even our elders,
like I say, is getting highgrades in school, but wants to
(35:28):
be in musical theater.
The narrative that, and he washe, you know, he loved his
school.
He was you're not notcritiquing it in any way, shape,
or form, but the narrative waswith you know, yeah, is that a
career he can rely on?
You know, is it that's a dodgy,that's a dodgy industry.
And you think, is thereanything, something you can rely
on?
Is it this is lighting him up,and this is what he wants to do.
(35:52):
And he is now he's now livinghis very best life with a
contract on a on a cruise ship,traveling, which is what he
loves, and he's on the stagejust about every night doing
what he loves.
So consequently, a very, veryhappy person in his early 20s
because he's following thatpath.
He's not stressed out, going, Istudied all of this and I've
(36:14):
got to make a career of it, andI've done and I'm hating it, I'm
hating it.
And I'm thinking, I'm glad, I'mglad that's not your path right
now.
But things have a season, maybesome things have a season.
I try to tell the childrenyou'll meet people that might
hang around for a season andsome people that might be here
for life.
It they are when they're here,you know, that it is what it is.
(36:35):
It's don't be afraid to let goand never be afraid to change
something that isn't working foryou.
If it's not working, come backto where if you've got a nice
solid base here, which was whatI was most concerned about with
our young guest, is you havingthat solid base means you can
always completely rely on you toget this done.
(36:55):
Yes, community is important, Ibut you've got to know who you
are first to know what giftsyou're bringing to that
community, to look at where youcan exchange those gifts and
what you exchange it for.
It could be purely energetic,it could be financial.
There are many ways of buildingcommunity and sharing those
gifts.
But if your child doesn't knowwhat gift they're bringing and
(37:18):
they're just fitting a box, howlong do we go on before we
realize that box isn't us?
You know, it's actually no, um,you've put me over here, but I
I don't feel I belong there.
I'm wondering if that'sactually quite a big feeder for
our mental health crisis with alot of our young people at the
moment is the fact they don'tknow who they are.
Cecilie Conrad (38:20):
I think it is.
I think it's not even for justfor the young people.
I think a lot of people livethat life.
I think a lot of the crisis,the midlife crisis, all the
crises you hear about you'resupposed to have in your life.
Uh they're like planned out,like your years in school, you
do this exam, and then whenyou're 50, this crisis.
Victoria Lenormand (38:39):
And we've always made it a permissive
expectation, haven't we?
Of you're allowed to have amidlife crisis because we
recognize this happens.
Well, it probably would if Inever knew who I was.
Cecilie Conrad (38:49):
What if I just did what I wanted all along?
Do I have to retire before Itravel?
You know, there are all thesequestions.
Victoria Lenormand (38:57):
But that's the key, isn't it?
It's asking the question,giving yourself the space to ask
the question.
And I think that we get sobusy, maybe we just don't ask
anymore.
Jesper Conrad (39:09):
Besides not asking, then finding the time to
ponder and find it.
Cecilie Conrad (39:14):
I think it's exhausting sometimes to have to
rethink my life all the time.
And sometimes I love thatstructure, just to get up in the
morning, do something.
At the end of the year,there'll be an exam, and they
tell me I did well, and I can Ican comb back my hair, put up a
shiny dress, and have a glass ofchampagne, and then I can press
repeat and easy.
(39:34):
Yeah, no responsibility, nothinking, no personality, no
wiggle room.
It's not my fault in dog mealsbecause it's the system.
Oh I see, I see the draw.
Jesper Conrad (39:48):
Yeah, in my dark hours, I dream myself back to an
office job.
Cecilie Conrad (39:52):
Oh god, that's very dark hours.
Jesper Conrad (39:56):
I was just just let someone else decide.
Just give me a schedule.
Victoria Lenormand (40:01):
Well, because we're stationary now and
Will's got a bit more routinethat he has chosen, this
training program, you know, hishis scouting and explorer, you
know, interests.
You know, when when thatroutine started to come in, my
husband and I took some time torest a little bit, you know.
It's just like he doesn't needus right now.
(40:21):
I'm just gonna enjoy thismoment, you know.
But I'm actually not needed.
He's busy, he's doing histhing, and he's actually very
content and happy.
And I don't want to beumbrellaing that in any way.
I don't want to have ahelicopter, I don't want to
umbrella it.
I just want to check in, you'regood.
Those golden nugget moments,aren't they, at that point of
like, you're good, you're happy,tell me about your day.
You know, we've got plenty ofplaces where we connect during
(40:43):
the day, anyhow.
So I but it was it didn't takelong before both of us, so used
to working so hard, suddenlythought, oh boredom.
It's been a while since I'vebeen here.
I'm I'm actually bored.
I I don't think I've been boredsince I was a child, and that
was great, you know.
Not as a child, but now I'mlike I'm actually bored.
(41:04):
What am I gonna do next?
That's the next question, isn'tit?
What am I gonna do?
What's do I feel called todoing anything right now?
No, okay, just stay here then.
And then there was there wassome work that came up, and my
initial resistance was an alarmclock in the morning telling me
to get up and go off to thisparticular location for a reason
that I might not be connectedwith.
(41:26):
The overall work, yeah,potentially, you know, this is
supporting.
Young adults with autism in thecommunity to help live a more
independent life, life skills.
And I thought if he doesn'tneed me as much, I wouldn't mind
seeing if I can contributethere as well.
So let's go into that space andsee if I can contribute.
(41:47):
But it took quite a lot for meto put boundaries around that.
Initially, the employer didn'twant to know.
It's like I can't work Sunday.
Sunday's rugby.
And it's really important thatI'm there.
And no, I'm not going to beworking.
Oh, well, if you can't give meeverything, I don't want
anything from you.
And I thought, well, that'sfine.
You can sit in that.
That's not a problem.
You can sit in that.
Before they re-thought, I said,if you can't do Sunday, how
(42:10):
much flexibility have you gotthrough the rest of the week?
And I said, actually, the restof the week is fine.
It's just Sunday that issacrosanct.
That's not negotiable.
There's a boundary.
I have never put that kind ofboundary in before.
Shift work, everything else,I've never had that kind of
boundary.
And this time I did.
So it was good for me to dothat and then say, no, Sundays
(42:30):
are sacrosanct.
And I can offer you 20 hours aweek, fairly regularly, but I'm
trying it.
This is a trial for our family.
And if it doesn't work for myfamily, you're kind of on notice
as an employer that I won't bestaying.
My interest is in learning tosupport people with life skills,
but at the same time balancingmy family needs.
(42:54):
And if that goes out of kilta,no, I won't be doing it.
I need to find something.
And it suddenly changed theconversation with my employer.
Now running around a little bitmore after me saying, Is
everything okay?
Are you happy?
Are you this?
Are we going to be keeping you?
And you think, I'm a valuableasset.
Takes a lot, doesn't it, for usto say that kind of thing.
It's actually I'm a valuableasset.
(43:15):
I've spent the last six yearsteaching somebody with an autism
profile of a type to developlife skills and bits and be and
these children have gone throughschool, some of them have got
incredible exams, but can'tfunction in life.
You know, they're they'rebringing in the house and
bringing in all the adult thingsthat we have to consider, it's
(43:37):
overwhelmed and it's gotten toomuch.
So giving them the tools andthe abilities to do that is
something it's going to be aprocess.
And absolutely I'm interestedin that, but it has to balance.
Cecilie Conrad (43:48):
But isn't it?
Do you don't you think that thereason this so rarely happens,
what you just did, is the fearthat's so deeply installed in
the schooled person that I mean,I used to be that person.
I went to school for 23 yearsnon-stop from kindergarten
(44:08):
through university.
And so you come out and you'rejust so used to it has to be.
It's such a constant, and it'slike the teeth in your mouth.
You can't imagine not it's notthere.
And it's the same way the job,you have to have that job.
You just have to have it, youhave to make it work.
Take that out of the equationand make a personal choice.
(44:28):
It takes a lot of courage,yeah, and that's a courage you
don't develop if you don't havethe chance to grow up making
mistakes, being who you are, dowhat lights you up, do the whole
trust the process thing.
Yeah, I might let go right now.
I don't know what's going on,but I feel my way.
(44:49):
I have my intuition, I have myheart in front.
I I do know that I can thinktoo, but the brain is more like
a tool I use when I have a jobto do.
And sometimes I don't know whatI'm doing, so I'm gonna have to
wait and just all of that, thatkind of life strategy, is just
not something that's supportedat all in what the kids learn
(45:13):
all the way through the system.
So you come out, and the nextstep is to have a job, and then
at some point you'll be 40, andthere's the obligatory crisis,
and you know, there are thethings you're right, it's like a
treadmill, isn't it?
Victoria Lenormand (45:25):
It's almost like a factory turnout of uh
this state and this data andthis station.
It's almost scripted, you know.
If you if you partake at anearly stage, you it's almost
scripted for you.
Do you question what is not onthe sheet in front of you?
You know, do you or do youfocus so much on answering the
questions that have been posedthat you don't actually ask your
(45:48):
own?
And that becomes the challenge,doesn't it?
Is I found it when I wasworking, when I was policing
investigation for me is aboutasking questions gently.
It's about asking questionsabout what's serving and what
isn't, what's working and whatisn't.
Can we do that without bysaying, hey, there's a mistake
here, we can learn from that andmove on.
(46:10):
Why are we so reluctant tohonor the mistake process?
You know, the fact that we wentdown this line, it doesn't
work.
Let's try a different one.
Or let's look at what does workor who's doing it well.
Let's not there because thereare we know as you say, many
cultures, many countries, manyplaces.
This is where we're brilliant.
Is some people somewhere havedeveloped something wonderful,
(46:32):
and it's working so much better.
And nine times out of ten,these things that they've
developed that are wonderful arekinder for the community that
that serves.
The idea that we all fit in oneparticular space, that's just
doesn't work, it never has.
We're not we are brilliant inour diversity, but our schools
(46:55):
and our justice system and ourhealth system does not reflect
the diversity that we have, justdoesn't.
Yeah, and it's getting worse.
But we can hold it, like yousay.
With when you asked wherehomeschooling fits in that, for
me, we were the first.
We're part of a branch ofthings that are growing out of
(47:17):
broken systems.
So whether that's homeeducating or alternative
educating, that's more prevalentnow, maybe, than it ever has
been.
There are more people turningto alternative justice systems,
alternative health systems.
There will, and we're part ofthat alternative branch that's
coming up that gives peoplechoice.
You're talking your podcast isgoing to give people insight
(47:40):
into what it could look like.
And the fact that that is aswide and diverse as all of us,
that's amazing.
Cecilie Conrad (47:47):
But that is why we're podcasting, yeah,
basically, because we just wantto open some windows in that
box, and and then you can,whether you're inside the box or
not, you can peek through allthe holes and get some ideas
about what other options arethere out there.
What do people come up with andwhy, and and where did they
land, how did it go, how do theyfeel, and just so that if that
(48:11):
mainstream it has quite a lot ofcurrency, you know, mainstream
is hard, it's hard to changedirection from that.
You know, like you're on themotorway and and and everyone's
going fast and in thisdirection, you can't just turn
your you know, you'll die.
There has to be some sort of,but where are the exits?
And and so that's why we'refasting, basically.
(48:33):
That's why we're taking thetime, just to make sure the
other options are not a secret.
Yes, exactly.
You'll find it, yeah.
Jesper Conrad (48:43):
Yeah, Victoria, to find a place to round up.
I will try to, and it would beunfair to the long conversation,
but to kind of sum it up intogoing from false to service and
asking ourselves, what kind ofservice can I be to my
(49:05):
community?
I really like that uhperspective you put into my mind
there.
And then also turn it over toyou.
If people want to know moreabout your story, more about how
you are of service, is there away they can connect with you?
Do you have a home page?
How do they find you?
What service are you doing forthe world besides what you have
(49:26):
shared with us?
Victoria Lenormand (49:27):
Well, with our with our youngest son's
help, we've developed a smallbusiness called Gemini
Directions.
And there are there's awebsite, geminidirections.co.uk,
and you can find our book thatwe wrote.
So I finally did the writingthing I always wanted to do, and
I wrote the book, and I'mreally pleased with it.
But it gives an insight intothe journey of a fairly typical
(49:50):
family whose home education hadjust not been on the radar for
and how we got there.
So it documents our journeythere.
It documents the tools we usedand the thinking that came up
for us that may help supportother people in the direction
that they want to go in.
So that was the purpose ofwriting that book in the first
place.
And that's called the magic ofnot fitting in.
(50:11):
And you find it on our website,anyhow.
As well as that, we hold circlespaces around the full moon and
the new moon for some peoplewho are looking at making a bit
of a shift in themselves to say,I'm not asking questions and I
need a place to put this thatfeels safe.
We've made it accessible andonline for people so that you
(50:31):
know, especially for autismfamilies, one of the things we
discovered was the isolationthat came with that.
We can't go out, you couldn'tdo this, you were unwelcome in
places.
People come online in thejammies, and it's so much nicer.
No, no judgment, no nothing ina circle space.
And then there's there's aprocess, you know, we've we've
got different levels of coursesand community, and that is
(50:52):
developing around there.
So we have a parentingcommunity, like a send community
there that are looking atautism, things that are coming
up, parents sharing strategiesand information that they're
using without judgment.
Again, it's just sharedinformation of like, it's here
if you want it.
Or I just need to talk becauseI'm in a difficult place right
now.
(51:12):
I just need somewhere to putthat safe because that people
are reaching out to servicesthat aren't able to respond.
So it's trying to be a placewhere the community is the
parents that are have eitherbeen there or are going through
it and are supporting eachother.
So it grows there.
So there's kind of a holisticspiritual, metaphysical meets
(51:34):
the science, meets the need ofwe're growing something
different.
It's birthing somethingdifferent, and it's organic and
it's growing the way we are.
So it'll it will move andchange potentially as well.
And if people come in with aneed, they let me know and we
look at what we can do to meetit.
But you can find us there.
It's an offering.
Jesper Conrad (51:54):
I love it.
Victoria, thanks a lot for yourtime.
It was wonderful chatting toyou today.
Victoria Lenormand (52:00):
Brilliant.
Thank you ever so much.
Thank you.
It's been great.
It was fun.
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