May 20, 2025 • 44 mins
Are you holding up everyone else at your own expense? In this episode, I talk with Noni Vaughn-Pollard, NDTR, MHC-LP about unlearning perfectionism and:
• Finding those safe spaces to receive support
• The unique challenges of sensitive black girls
• Giving yourself permission to be soft and sensitive when you need to
• The impact of superwoman syndrome
• Navigating internal and external messages that block your intuition and true calling
Noni is a mental health counselor and nutritionist in New York who focuses on empowering Black adolescent girls by boosting their self-esteem. She also supports sensitive adolescents & young adults of color dealing with anxiety, perfectionism, and relationship challenges.
Keep in touch with Noni:
• Website: https://www.rootsarttherapy.nyc/noni
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afroandappetite
• Email: noni@rootsarttherapy.nyc
Resources Mentioned:
• Nap Ministry: https://thenapministry.wordpress.com
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https://www.sensitivestories.com
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (00:00):
Within the Black community there's this
guilt that if I am doing well,I'm leaving somebody behind,
that if I'm focusing on myself,I'm neglecting my family and
friends.
To keep yourself stuck becauseother people are stuck, it
doesn't get you to where youwant to be.
(00:20):
So that's always thisinteresting balance of how do I
show up for other people but Istill show up for myself at the
same time.
April Snow (00:36):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host for the peoplewho live with hearts and eyes
wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author April Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:58):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withNoni Von Pollard about setting
down the pressure to be perfectat caring for everyone else,
finding those safe spaces toreceive support and recognizing
your gifts.
When you're a sensitive blackgirl focuses on empowering Black
(01:26):
adolescent girls by boostingtheir self-esteem.
She also supports sensitiveadolescents and young adults of
color dealing with anxiety,perfectionism and relationship
challenges.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind-the-scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
(01:46):
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in Well, nody.
(02:17):
Welcome back to the podcast.
I'm so excited to have you hereagain.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (02:21):
Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me
back.
I'm really happy that we get tochat again and maybe have a
little different of aconversation this time.
April Snow (02:28):
Me too.
Yeah, I'm excited to dive intothe work that you're doing now,
and so last time we talked aboutwe started off with your HSP
discovery story, which is whatwe usually start with.
But I want to dive a little bitdeeper this time and look at a
different part of yourexperience and that connects to
the work that you're doing now.
So I'm curious if you're opento sharing your experience
growing up as a sensitive Blackteen what that was like for you.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (02:50):
Yeah, I was just at my old high school
today, so I definitely have alot of memories that have
flooded back.
I remember feeling verymisunderstood.
I felt like what was interestingwas that I was such an
emotional person and sensorythings so like prevalent in my
mind, like the weather or, youknow, the day of the week or the
(03:12):
holiday season, like everythingwas just super big for me and I
would get a lot of commentsfrom people, even sometimes
within, like my inner circlethat I needed to just let it go.
I shouldn't linger on things, Iwas being too sensitive, I was
personalizing things a lot, so Ifelt like this was an issue for
(03:32):
me.
I didn't know how to correct itat the time or if I needed to,
but I think I was very worriedthat my sensitivity was going to
get in the way of futuresuccess as I became an adult and
I tried really hard to not showthat side of myself, but it
just always felt like I wasputting on like a costume that
didn't feel comfortable and,yeah, it was really hard.
(03:55):
I just felt like there wasalways something wrong that I
needed to like let go of, but Ijust didn't know how to do that
and nobody told me how to do it.
April Snow (04:04):
Right, you're just getting told just to get over it
, let it go.
That's not really helpful.
Like, what do you do with that?
You know you can't change howyour nervous system is
responding to your environment,how you're feeling, and it makes
sense that well, okay, I'mdoomed to feel this way forever,
can't change it.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (04:23):
Yeah, yeah.
I just thought like, oh my gosh, college and getting a job and
future relationships as an adult, like how am I going to do this
?
Because I'm such a sensitiveperson and I was just told that
was a weakness or that was goingto get in the way of me being
able to progress as a person.
So I was just very worriedabout my future, and I think
(04:43):
other people were worried too.
Like well, if she can't letthings go, or if she's always
holding onto her emotions, howis she going to be able to move
forward in life?
So I internalized that a lotgrowing up as a teen of like
there's something wrong with meand I need to figure this out,
otherwise there's going to beconsequences later on.
April Snow (05:02):
Right, you think this is just going to persist
and life is going to get harderbecause you hear how hard
college is and how hard it is tofind a job and be an adult.
It's like, well, how am Isupposed to do all of that when
I feel this way and other peopleare implying, or maybe being
explicit, that, oh, this is aproblem.
You know, you can't be thissensitive and be in the world.
(05:28):
That's pretty terrifying right,thinking like, oh, I'm going to
, just I'm going to struggle.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (05:35):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
When you just said that.
Yeah, that's what it felt like,like it's going to be a
struggle.
It's going to be really hardfor me to obtain the goals that
I want for myself because of whoI am.
April Snow (05:46):
Yeah, I imagine that's what leads you then.
I'm curious to hear how you gotthrough that.
But I think we'll get into thatthrough our conversation.
But I imagine that's a bigreason why you decided to work
with teen girls yourself.
You understand where you'recoming from.
I'm curious to hear more aboutthat.
What led you to this work?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (06:05):
understand where you're coming from.
I'm curious to hear more aboutthat.
What led you to this work?
Yeah, it kind of happened byaccident.
In a weird way.
I was doing a lot of like myinternships with teenagers.
I was getting paired with a lotof teen girls of color,
especially a lot of black teens,and I didn't have any
experience before like learninghow to do psychotherapy and
counseling with teenagers, but Ijust remember they would open
(06:27):
up so fast to me and I think,because they were talking to
someone that looked similar tothem, had a similar identity and
similar experiences as asensitive person, that they felt
it was a safe enough space andenvironment to be more
vulnerable.
And the more I was talking tothem, I realized like wow, a lot
of these things I say to thesegirls I didn't hear growing up.
(06:50):
Like that was just such asurreal experience of like oh,
this is what I wish.
I heard when I was a teen.
I wish someone was more patientwith me and I found myself
being very patient with thesegirls and the more I was patient
, the more I could see it wouldjust inspire them to start doing
certain things because theyknew like okay, like someone
(07:12):
believes in me, I can do thisstuff.
And that was like a realturning point where I was like,
oh, I really wish I had me whenI was younger to say, yeah, I
believe in you, you can do it,you can handle it.
That positive messaging itmeans a lot to the girls I work
with and I know it definitelywould have meant a lot to me
when I was younger.
April Snow (07:34):
Yeah, it's like you're speaking to your younger
self through them.
Yeah, how powerful that is to,instead of someone joining in
your despair to say, no, there'sanother way.
Right, it could actually beokay.
I mean that encouragement goesa long way first to be seen, but
then to be encouraged.
I'm curious, you know, asyou're giving them those
(07:55):
positive messages, what startsto shift.
Is there more hope?
Is there more possibility?
Do they feel you know moreworthy?
I'm just curious what happenswhen you hear something positive
versus something negative?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (08:12):
It feels like there's, from what I'm
seeing with the girls I workwith, there's more hope of, oh,
it's not going to be a struggle,or oh wait, like I've already
done a lot of amazing things.
That's something I've noticedtoo, and I focus on
perfectionism and anxiety withblack teen girls and a lot of
the times they come to methey're like I haven't
accomplished anything great, Ihaven't really struggled in my
(08:36):
life.
And I have to remind them, likeyou have been through things,
you have accomplished things,but maybe in your mind, because
it happened a little differentlyfor you, you don't think it's
worthy of any kind ofrecognition or praise.
And it's just interesting whenthey start to reflect on, oh,
like I have been able to dothings for myself or I know who
(08:57):
I am as a person.
I just never told anyone.
It seems like it gives a lot ofthem hope of like I know who I
am, I know what I want and aslong as I have that
encouragement to pursue it, Iseems like it gives a lot of
them hope of like I know who Iam, I know what I want and as
long as I have thatencouragement to pursue it, I
can do it and that's reallybeautiful to me to see is just a
girl who starts to reallybelieve in her own power of like
.
Oh wait, I'm not like anextrovert or I'm not like, you
(09:20):
know, other kids in my school,but I have a lot I can do and
there's a lot I can offer otherpeople the power of the reframe.
April Snow (09:30):
I mean because nothing's changing right.
You're still sensitive, you'restill potentially introverted,
you're still getting overwhelmedsometimes or having those big
feelings.
But it's just looking at itthrough a different lens, saying
like, oh, actually I am capable.
Yeah, there are things here Iam capable.
Yeah, there are things here Ican celebrate about myself and
(09:50):
it's not all bad.
I mean, that is such a powerfulrealization to have.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (09:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's very powerful and I think
it's interesting because I alsowork with parents, with Black
parents.
It's interesting because I alsowork with parents, with black
parents, and I can tell there'sa lot of projection happening of
like I know what it's like tobe a young black girl and
growing up it's very challenging.
People don't believe in you, soyou have to have this tough
skin because otherwise, if youdon't have it, you can't move
(10:18):
forward, and that creates whatit seems like a lot of
perfectionism within the family,of like we need to show up in a
certain way to be successful,and then the kids feel guilty of
like well, I'm not like that.
And I know what that's like too,that I'm not this tough skin
person.
So getting guidance around howcan you actually maneuver
(10:40):
through life without having thisarmor on is just a lot of
unlearning.
So what you said about thereframing makes so much sense.
It's a lot of reframing of like.
What does success mean?
When you're a highly sensitiveperson, that can be different
for you.
April Snow (10:55):
Yeah, yeah, Unlearning, is it?
You know just kind of pullingaway those messages.
And the last time we talked,you talked about you know this
permission you give yourself tolive a softer life, and it makes
sense that that you get stuckin perfectionism.
You know what other choices doyou have, or do you think that
you have, and that's very realright.
(11:16):
You have to be tough.
I think you had shared beforethat you can find those pockets
of softness.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (11:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The pockets of softness, Ithink is what I definitely feel
as a teenager kind of protectedme a lot that I knew that I was
soft, like I love listening to,like movie soundtracks, I love
children's shows, I just likesoft, fun, playful things, and I
(11:44):
think that actually protectedme from certain things that
teens go through.
I didn't always feel this needto prove something to other
people.
It was like, well, I like thisand this makes me feel safe, so
I'm going to, I'm going to stickwith this.
So that was my thing.
But then sometimes people werelike, well, you're not really
like a teenager, becauseteenagers are supposed to want
(12:04):
to take a lot of risk and dosome weird stuff.
And I was just like that justdoesn't feel like me, I can't, I
can't do it.
April Snow (12:13):
Yeah, doesn't feel like me, I can't.
I can't do it.
Yeah, you just let yourself bewho you are, your own version of
a teenager.
But you're right, there's thatpressure because the teenagers
are usually pretty chaotic andyou're taking risks and you're
pushing limits.
But there's some way that yourealize, oh, I can do this my
own way.
How did you get get there?
Was it your parents or justsomething in yourself that you
(12:36):
were able to give yourself thatpermission?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (12:39):
I think part of it was from my parents.
My parents are in the film andtelevision world and so I grew
up with art like we always wentto art museums, we always went
to the movies.
I love drawing and painting andI love making my own movies,
like on my computer when I was akid, and I like making my own
songs.
I think being around a creativefamily made it normal to want
(13:02):
to engage with the arts orthings that were just more like
somatic things I could feel inmy body and so that was great.
It was always great being aroundparents who loved art, because
I know kids whose parents aremore scientific or into
financial work and I'm like Ihave no idea Seems like a
different world.
Everything's about facts, butyeah, I think my parents were
(13:25):
the ones that really supportedme in art.
But then also I would just likemaybe I would just see like a
character in a movie likeanother teenager was like
writing in a journal or theywould do something with their
friends or like some kind oflike role playing and stuff and
I would take inspiration fromthat.
I'm like, oh, I want to trythat for myself and see how that
(13:45):
feels.
So yeah, I was always superobservant.
I was always watching myenvironment and anything that I
thought was interesting I triedit for myself.
So I would find little pocketsof things that I liked.
April Snow (13:58):
I love that, yeah, on your Instagram, I love that
you share different charactersthat you relate to as a
sensitive person.
It's like, yes, I love that,because those are sometimes the
only way that you might seeyourself or part of your
temperament If you don't comefrom a family who's a little
more permission giving, who'smore soft or creative.
Yeah, there's those ways tofind it.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (14:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Actually, when you were justsaying about the characters, my
mom introduced me to thisJapanese filmmaker named Hayao
Miyazaki and he always had thesegirls that were just really
sensitive.
They're very emotional, butthey were also very ambitious.
They would have their ownbusinesses or they were very
protective of their family, likethey could get a lot done even
(14:43):
when they felt so muchemotionally.
I would see these charactersand I was like that feels like
me, like I have all these goals,I have all these dreams and I'm
very emotional because I'm sopassionate about things.
So I felt like they understood,even though they weren't real
people, but there was somethingthat resonated for me about
seeing them in those films.
(15:04):
Like that feels like me, like Ican identify with that.
April Snow (15:08):
Yeah, it's like, here's someone that's embodying
both sensitivity and passion andambition at the same time, and
I love that reframe that maybeit's not well, you're emotional
but also you're passionate,right.
That's such a positive spin onit, which is true as sensitive
people.
It's like, oh, I mean, howbeautiful of your mom to pass
(15:28):
that along to you.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (15:28):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know how she heard
about this Japanese director,but I mean she loves films from
other countries, so it was justit felt like such a gift that
she was like, hey, there's thisworld of characters that are not
, like you know, stereotypical,like Disney princesses or other
things in western culture that Iwould see, and it was just like
it just blew my mind and I wasso emotional watching these
(15:51):
movies oh, thank you, you felt.
You felt seen.
Yeah, yeah, I felt really seen.
It was just like I would alwayscry at the end of every, every
film he made, because it justspoke to me so much.
April Snow (16:04):
It's so powerful to see what's possible for a
sensitive person and just to bemore dynamic.
Especially you're getting thisexternal pressure is to put
yourself in this little box.
You know, be tough, be strong.
Whatever it is, it's like, no,I can be gooey on the inside
(16:24):
yeah, yeah it is.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (16:26):
It's pretty amazing because, yeah, I think
that's not.
I don't know if I guess inwestern culture we don't see
women and girls in that way,particularly like Black women
and girls.
It's like very like masculinecharacters that I would see on
TV and I was like that's not me.
I don't identify with someonewho's very aggressive and they
(16:47):
would always be portrayed aslike violent or just not
empathic and I was like that'snot me at all.
I don't identify with that.
April Snow (16:54):
Right, it's so limiting and I would say
probably all the Black HSPs I'vetalked to feel stuck in that
box of oh I can only be this oneway.
I can only be strong with thattough skin.
It's like no, there's more tome than that.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (17:09):
Yeah, definitely that resonates for me
.
It makes a lot, a lot of sense,yeah, exactly what you're
saying.
April Snow (17:14):
Like, no, I'm strong and I'm ambitious, but I'm also
soft and emotional and complex.
How reductive that is to havethat be the only example.
So you had to kind of lookoutside of you know what's
available here.
Okay, what other characters canI resonate with and that
actually speaks to me more?
I mean, would be great if that.
(17:35):
Well, I'm not sure if this istrue, but I would imagine I
would love to see that withsomeone that looks like me but,
this is maybe the next bestthing.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
And what, before we get intotalking about anxiety,
imperfections and more somethingthat came up as you were
talking I'm wondering, wondering, you know, you do you say to
(17:56):
that parent who has a sensitiveBlack girl and maybe doesn't
(18:19):
understand them, is theresomething that you would say to
maybe just give them someperspective or some reassurance,
if anything comes to mind?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (18:36):
if anything comes to mind.
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion.
I usually do tell parents thatnaturally, a lot of HSPs are
drawn to the arts and even ifI've had some kids that they
still like more of the sciences,but there's this like human
element they love about it oflike I want to help find cures
for diseases, to help otherpeople and making sure that
parents know that their child'sidea of a successful career or
(19:01):
life it can look different.
It's still successful for them,but yeah, it can come in a
different form and sometimesI'll just tell people about
different examples of you know,black women in different fields
that I've seen and their ownsuccess journey.
But yeah, there's a lot ofunlearning of being patient with
your kid and saying, okay, likemaybe I don't have all the
(19:22):
answers, because I know that's aprotective thing.
You want to make sure your kidis safe is that these kids have
really strong intuition, so ifthey feel pulled to something
it's for a reason, and that tolet them actually explore it
before you cut them off and go.
Oh wait, that might not workout for you Cause, yeah, I've
always felt that, when I was ateen too, that there were things
(19:45):
I wanted to explore.
But then when I was told, well,maybe that won't be a
successful path, it was like, ohokay, I'm not, I'm gonna just
give that up.
So yeah, just allowing them toexplore and also like trusting,
if they're not attached, thatthey'll find something else.
April Snow (20:01):
Yeah, it's such a good reminder that even as
teenagers, sensitive kids, havestrong intuition and they have
that passion, that commitment,and they may change their mind a
few times, but I mean, they'regoing to really put their all
into it and it may lookdifferent than what you hoped as
a parent or what you understandas a non-HSP human, but to
(20:25):
trust them.
What a good reminder.
Right, they know themselves sowell.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (20:30):
Right.
April Snow (20:31):
Yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (20:31):
And I remind parents and kids because
sometimes I work with themtogether in a space that it's
not working as a team, likethat's the point when other like
whether they're looking atcolleges or they're looking at
career options that the point isthat they work together as a
team so that the teenager knows,okay, like I can go explore
because my parent is going tosupport me in that exploration
(20:54):
process.
Instead of this, what I tend tosee a lot when I first work
with kids is this anxiety of Ican't disappoint mom and dad or
whoever else is in the family,because they're expecting this.
So I need to move the way thatthey're hoping I will.
But yeah, I remind it's kind oflike couples therapy in a weird
way.
It's like we're on the sameteam, like that's the point is
(21:15):
to make sure that the kid feelsthey can go explore what they're
interested in.
April Snow (21:19):
Yeah, seeing the same thing.
Yeah, it's just like a coupleright.
The more that you're trustedand that you're working together
, more is possible, right.
And when that child feels safeto explore and to follow their
passions, you know they're goingto be so much more successful
than trying to fight somethingthat isn't a good fit.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (21:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And when I was just answeringyour question before, I was
thinking about when I was atcollege as an undergrad and I
was studying nutrition and Ithought, oh, I really should be
in the science because I wastold that was like the best type
of career was to be in a STEMtype of career.
And I got to the end of collegeand I was like I'm just not
(22:03):
feeling it and I realized likemaybe it's not because I'm not
good at this, I'm just notinterested.
I was really interested inpsychology and I told my dad
like isn't this like the worstthing?
That I came through four yearsof school and I don't want to do
nutrition?
And he was like that's okay,it's okay if you change your
mind.
I was like what?
(22:24):
Like no, like don't you saylike oh, that's a disappointment
.
But no, he was like no, I feltthat way too and I was like oh.
So it was like hearing amessage like that of like it's
okay if you change your mind,it's okay if you don't want to
commit to this anymore.
It sounds like you know whatyou want.
And it really helped.
(22:44):
I was just like okay, yeah, Idon't think this is for me
anymore.
April Snow (22:49):
Yeah, it's such a good reminder to just push away
those messages that say you haveto do X, y, z.
It's like, well, what if I'mnot interested?
What if it's not a fit?
I had a very similar experience.
I studied plant biology becauseI thought there's a steady path
.
I always circle all thepsychology courses like longing
(23:10):
for them.
I thought, no, you need to bepractical.
But I never used that degreebecause I wasn't interested in
it.
I was like oh, and now I'm goingto go back to grad school and
actually study psychology.
Yes, it's such a good reminder,though, that follow your gut.
Even if it doesn't make senseright away or it doesn't seem
like the practical choice, itmight actually be.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (23:32):
Yeah.
That sticks out for me.
When you said I need to bepractical, that's what I thought
too, like no, I have to takeorganic chemistry and biochem
because, like people understandthose jobs or understand like
nutrition, like we're at ahospital, like, yeah, let's be
practical, let's not be likefantastical with helping people.
(23:52):
But I really felt pulled to thepsychology classes at school
and I was like this comes sonaturally to me, this is so easy
, and it was like my intuition'syeah, you should check this out
, you should look at psychology.
But then the other part of notwanting to disappoint people was
like no, that's not areasonable path.
(24:13):
You need to stick with science.
April Snow (24:14):
Yeah right, yeah, it's like that's the practical
choice, the typical route, andsaying, well, no, this is just
trying to put a square peg in around hole.
It's not going to work.
It's interesting that you know.
I think what you're sharingreminds me that there's all
these layers of messaging fromyourself to your family, to the
outside world, and you can gethooked into one.
(24:37):
It's like, well, if we justpause and check in with what's
really important.
And you know, when you checkedin with your dad, he's like,
yeah, that's totally okay.
It's like, oh right, it's fine,but we get stuck.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (24:54):
Yeah, it's confusing because it's like I
think, especially as an HSP thefear of upsetting someone or
someone being disappointed thatwas just me like one of the
worst feelings ever, and I thinkeven as an adult I still feel
that way, and so that was wheremy brain was as a younger person
(25:14):
.
Was I need to make sureeverybody's okay with me?
I need to be able to maintainthese relationships with friends
, family, teachers.
And it really was blocking outmy intuitive side, because I was
so tapped into what otherpeople were feeling and when I
would get a message of, likeit's not about what other people
(25:34):
want, it's about what you want,and I was like, oh yeah, who am
I doing this for?
Again, it was like a check in,like wait, no, it's not me.
Like, this is my path, this ismy life.
So I would hear that sometimesfrom people and it was like, oh
yeah, I forgot, like what I wasdoing this for, who I was doing
this for.
April Snow (25:55):
I know it's so easy to get locked in and the
intuition is just inaccessible.
So let's slow it down and checkin and see what's really true.
You're talking about, I think,anxiety that bubbles up during
those years and I'm wonderinghow, if you are a teen girl a
Black teen girl, maybe a Blacksensitive teen girl how it just
(26:19):
it seems impossible to unhookfrom anxiety.
I'm just wondering how can youdo that?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (26:30):
Yeah, from anxiety.
I'm just wondering how can youdo that?
Yeah, I think, yeah, I thinkthe support system is so
important in that moment.
And I've seen, even if they'renot getting it from home or from
friends, when they come totherapy and they talk to me,
it's like okay, somebody islistening to me about all these
anxious feelings that I'm havingand I get to like unfold this
anxiety so I can start to reallyhear my own self.
(26:51):
So that's.
I just have seen that reallyjust changes the trajectory for
a lot of girls I work with, thatthey have someone who's just
going to listen, not give a lotof criticism and judgment of
like you should do this or youshould focus on this, because
that's mostly what they hear andthat just feeds into the
(27:11):
anxiety of I'm not doing enough,I'm not good enough, I'm not
working hard enough, I'm notmaking people happy enough, and
coming into a space where it'slike you're not here to take
care of me, I'm here to takecare of you, and that I just
think, as a black teen, hsp,that's like it's kind of mind
blowing because you're justalways thinking I have to take
care of someone else.
It's not about me, it's aboutother people and therapy at
(27:35):
first is a little strangebecause like, oh, this feels
kind of selfish.
I've heard kids say that, likeit's selfish to talk about
yourself.
But they're not used to that.
They're not used to justspeaking for themselves instead
of thinking about what someoneelse needs from them yeah, you
give them a space to just seteverything down, even if it's
uncomfortable at first.
April Snow (27:54):
Eventually they realize oh, this is a space I
can be myself, I can let it allout.
You can actually receivesomething back.
I'm not need to worry abouteveryone else all the time.
I don't have to worry aboutbeing so tough keeping that
exterior on.
Yeah, it's a place that you canreceive that support and I
appreciate that you said youknow it doesn't have to come
(28:15):
from everywhere.
Even one person, a therapist,could make a difference.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (28:21):
Yeah, it absolutely does.
I mean, I think even for me myown therapy it's helped so much
but just the therapeuticrelationship of someone else
taking care of you and you notfeeling you have to go above and
beyond or overstep your ownboundaries to keep people um
connected to you.
It's just there's so muchunlearning that comes with that
(28:44):
and I always ask the kids likewhat do you want, what are your
favorite classes?
Like, what do you dream about?
So they're always like well, Idon't really think about like
this stuff I don't tell anyonewhat I want, because that might
not be what they want and justremembering that it's about
centering them in life.
And it's a beautiful thing towant to center other people
(29:06):
until you start to lose yourselfin other people's journeys and
you forget that it's not up toyou to figure out what everybody
else wants.
April Snow (29:16):
That's powerful, like, oh, I can actually think
about myself even a little bitin this one space for this
moment.
What a change.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (29:30):
Yeah, it's just like eye opening, like,
yeah, and it takes a while to.
I've noticed it takes it's likesometimes a few years just for
a teen to go.
Oh okay, it's about me, it'sabout my safety, it's about my
goals, my dreams, my future.
It can take a while andsometimes when I meet a kid it's
(29:50):
in the middle of a lot oftrauma, like especially a lot of
relationship trauma and workingthrough that of the grief of I
thought I did everything forthis person and then it all fell
apart.
It is really painful for teens,so it's just reminding them
like you could be the mostamazing, wonderful person and
also, maybe you can't fixeverybody's stuff, and that's
(30:13):
okay too.
April Snow (30:14):
Yeah, that's hard to sit with everything.
I worked so hard, I gave somuch.
Why didn't this work out?
Yeah, it's really hard and theperfect time to be able to lean
on someone else and have them beheld up, but it is.
It's a long process.
I appreciate that you said ittakes years, because it really
does.
(30:34):
There's a lot of you know.
Just to go back to that word,unlearning, there's a lot of
unlearning to do.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (30:40):
Yeah yeah, there's so much unlearning.
And I also wanted to add that Ithink within the Black
community I've heard this from alot of clients and I felt this
way that there's this guilt thatif I am doing well, I'm
leavinging my family and friendsand that's not a good thing and
(31:05):
that's really challenging,because you want to show
gratitude for your relationshipsbut also to keep yourself stuck
because other people are stuck.
It doesn't get you to where youwant to be.
So that's always like thisinteresting balance of how do I
show up for other people but Istill show up for myself at the
(31:26):
same time.
April Snow (31:27):
Stakes are high.
To take care of yourself andmaybe set down that
responsibility for a littlewhile, yeah, wow.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (31:35):
Yeah.
April Snow (31:37):
I mean that guilt as a sensitive person is high, but
then if you're a blacksensitive person, it's even
higher and you're compounding it.
I mean, how do is it just beingable to model it in therapy?
You know, experience it intherapy.
Is that enough, or is theremore that you need to do to be
able to say it's okay to takecare of me?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (31:58):
I think modeling it in therapy is that's
one way to do it and I've alsobeen feeling, just in my
professional work, thatindividual therapy sometimes I'm
feeling like it's not hittingdifferent parts of a teenager
and I always love doing groupwork because I just find so much
strength and like multiplepeople working together to
(32:21):
figure something out.
So I've been investigating moreof that, Like how do I bring
mothers and daughters togetherso they can have these
conversations about what are theexpectations and the
relationships?
But yeah, like it's individualwork is great.
And then I also realized likecommunal effort and the strength
of the community is just soimportant and I think, because
(32:43):
Black girls are always expectedto grow up faster and to be
responsible more quickly thanother teenagers, that you can
get left behind as a teen girl.
You're going to have to figurethat out for yourself and it's
like, well, they're still kids,they're still trying to
understand and develop andmature, so they still need a lot
(33:03):
of support too.
And kids feel a lot of shameabout asking for help of like
well, I should know how to takecare of myself at a young age
and I remind them like it's okayif you don't you're still
really young, trying to figureit out and reminding them it's
okay if you need more of yourcommunity to help you.
April Snow (33:21):
Yeah, and it makes sense that being able to bring
that into a group setting, soyou get to work out those group
dynamics in a therapeuticsetting where you feel safe and
supported and there's room tomake mistakes and to talk it
through, kind of like try it onright and then be able to take
it out you need that, thatcommunity support, and you need
(33:44):
to be able to lean on multiplepeople and figure out how to
communicate in a group.
It makes sense while you'regravitating towards that work.
It's so powerful and soimportant.
Yeah, as you're talking aboutthis burden, to do it all on
your own.
Take care of everybody else, Iwonder.
(34:07):
I've heard you talk about thisconcept of superwoman syndrome.
I'm wondering if that is, ifwe're getting into that realm is
would that be what that is?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (34:18):
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I know that that's beenresearched a lot, especially
recently, about black womenfeeling they need to lift up the
community and their familiesand just like be the caretaker
for a lot of people for so longand seeing just so much
(34:48):
resentment and anger of likenobody took care of me when I
needed support or I was so busylifting up other people that
nobody said hey, like how is shedoing there?
Like how are you doing?
It's like you know, that's noteven a thought.
It's like no, you're justsupposed to be there to hold
other people up.
Kind of like you're thefoundation of a whole house and
that's a lot of pressure.
So it's just interesting thatit's not being normalized
(35:09):
anymore.
I think for younger generationsto be that superwoman of like
it's okay if you have needs,it's okay to have boundaries,
and that's hard, I think witholder generations of Black women
it can feel a little selfish oflike well, I didn't have that
opportunity to take care ofmyself or do things for myself.
I was responsible for otherpeople and how can you get to
(35:30):
just walk away and do your ownthing?
I've seen that a lot in my workand, yeah, the idea of self
care is just.
It's interesting how I've seenwith like a young teen girl it
can feel like such a selfishthing or it feels neglectful of
other people.
Like I should be able to givemy whole self every day to
(35:52):
everyone.
And then that's my fear is thatthey're going to turn into an
older woman who's very resentfuland there's a lot of grief of
what, like she didn't getgrowing up or not getting enough
support, and that doesn't feellike that should be normalized
to me anymore.
It just it seems unfair.
(36:13):
I think because of what Blackwomen have gone through for so
long, it's like it doesn't makesense that we should still be
responsible for everybody.
It's a lot to do for everybody.
April Snow (36:23):
It's a lot to do.
It's a lot to do.
I mean, like you say, in thepast, holding up whole
households.
That's a lot on a Black woman'sshoulders.
So I could see there's a lot ofintergenerational healing that
needs to happen.
If you're a young Black girl,you're getting the messages,
maybe from your elders, that youshould be hyper-independent,
you should be that superwoman,because that's what I did and
(36:43):
why should it be any different?
But yeah, it's hard.
You're trying to break that andsay, no, it's okay to self-care
, it's okay to have those softpockets of your life, it's okay
to take care of yourself for alittle while.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (36:55):
that, I imagine, is a really tough cycle
to break oh yeah, yeah, it's areally really tough cycle to
break, because it's not easy tolive as a black person in this
climate.
Yeah, yeah, and that's I think.
When I was younger, that waslike the fear that if I was soft
and sensitive, I was just sobreakable that my environment in
(37:19):
America was just going to pullme in half.
Because I'm not, I wasn't toughenough to be able to get
through all these differentracist, misogynistic
environments.
And, yeah, I realized thatwasn't true.
At first I internalized it oflike oh, I need to be a
superwoman so I can handle allof this pressure.
(37:40):
But as I got older and I had myown therapy, I realized, like
wait, I can actually like walkaway from that.
If that's not something I wantto be a part of, is this cycle.
I can create something else formyself.
And that for a long time didn'tfeel like an option of like well
, this is the way it's alwaysbeen, so you have to be this way
(38:00):
.
And then it was like, ah, but Idon't want to keep going in
this direction if it doesn'tmake me feel good and there's
risk to going off and doing yourown thing and not following
what other people have done.
But it's just also liberating.
It's like wait, I don't have tobe the super woman If this is
exhausting.
I don't want to be exhaustedanymore.
April Snow (38:20):
Yeah Right, you can actually be a human, which I
mean a super woman is not human.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (38:30):
It's like a made up character, right, and
it's like wait a minute.
Yeah, it's like wait a minute.
Yeah, like a super persondoesn't usually have needs.
April Snow (38:37):
Like they're just taking care of everybody else
exactly, and even those blackelder women.
They had to rest sometime,because you're saying they are
human.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (38:48):
Maybe they didn't show it or ask for help,
but they they, I'm sure, neededit as human beings yeah, yeah,
which I when I think I guessgrowing up observing it, I would
always see black women napping.
That was like, yeah, it was inthese like small moments.
I would see like sometimes mymom would just go take a nap.
(39:08):
That's something she's alwaysdone since I was a kid, but it
was in that.
It was like, in between thisreally hectic schedule with all
these different responsibilities, oh, let me just take a nap.
April Snow (39:20):
Yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (39:20):
And I think there is a.
I don't think she's a therapist, but like a someone who has
something called a nap ministry.
April Snow (39:27):
I was just thinking of her, yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (39:28):
Yeah, I forgot her name, but this black
woman who embraces napping likeit is a form of rest and it's an
ancestral form of rest, and Imean, from what I've read and
what I know, black women havebeen doing that for so long.
Like, throughout a very hecticand exhausting day, you find a
time to nap and I do that now,actually, when I think about it,
(39:51):
like I love naps, but for along time I thought napping was
lazy.
Was lazy like, no, like you'renot supposed to nap, you're
supposed to keep going until yougo to bed no, there's wisdom in
napping, yeah it's a restart.
April Snow (40:07):
it's a great restart , it's an amazing restart.
And just to see that you know,these really strong women are
also embracing naps.
It's like, oh yes, we needbreaks, right, we need rest, we
need to slow down, and maybethat was their acceptable
version of it.
But now you're like, well,let's expand that even further.
Sensitive girls of color whoare maybe struggling with
(40:39):
getting stuck in that superwomansyndrome or stuck in
perfectionism, or wanting totake up more space for
themselves is there a messagethat you could leave them with?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (40:45):
I think I would love to say you are going
to disappoint people, but thatdoesn't mean you're doing
something wrong or that what youwant is inappropriate.
It could mean that you're goingon a path that other people
don't agree with or maybe don'tfeel is important to them, but
what to me, real strength is issaying well, if it feels right
(41:08):
to me, then I'm going to keeppursuing that.
And it's also inspiring to seesomeone who is not so concerned
about what other people want forthem or need for them, but puts
themselves first and say, if Iwant to be happy, embodied and
just loving, that this is thepath that works the best for me
(41:28):
and that's how I can be the bestversion of myself.
I just have always found thatin black people just so
beautiful and so inspiring thatit's like you.
Just you do what feels right toyou.
That's really powerful.
April Snow (41:42):
Yeah trust yourself yeah and don't be afraid to lean
into those pockets of softnessand that support and doing
things differently.
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot ofit's needed.
Yeah, yeah it's needed well,noni, I just want to thank you
so much.
I feel like we could talk forhours, I know like I'm on a roll
(42:04):
, I could keep I know, I'm sadthat we're out of time.
there's so much more to say, andI just want to remind folks
that you do have a lot ofresources available on your
instagram, your website.
You mentioned that you offergroups, so if just want to
remind folks that you do have alot of resources available on
your Instagram, your website,you mentioned that you offer
groups, so if folks want tomaybe get in touch with you for
a future group, how could theydo that?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (42:22):
Well, one of my Instagram handle is at
Afro and Appetite, and if theywould like to reach out about
group work, you can email me atmy professional email, which is
noni, at rootsarttherapynyc.
April Snow (42:36):
Great, and I'll put that in the show notes for folks
as well.
Thank you so much, yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (42:40):
Thanks so much, April.
April Snow (42:50):
Thanks so much for joining me and Noni for today's
conversation.
I hope you'll remember to giveyourself permission to rest and
care for yourself, and that it'sokay to receive as much support
as you're giving to everyoneelse.
And if you're interested inworking with Noni one-to-one or
attending one of her groups,you'll find her contact
information in the show notes.
(43:10):
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSB resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
(43:35):
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
Within the Black community there's this
guilt that if I am doing well,I'm leaving somebody behind,
that if I'm focusing on myself,I'm neglecting my family and
friends.
To keep yourself stuck becauseother people are stuck, it
doesn't get you to where youwant to be.
(00:20):
So that's always thisinteresting balance of how do I
show up for other people but Istill show up for myself at the
same time.
April Snow (00:36):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host for the peoplewho live with hearts and eyes
wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author April Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:58):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withNoni Von Pollard about setting
down the pressure to be perfectat caring for everyone else,
finding those safe spaces toreceive support and recognizing
your gifts.
When you're a sensitive blackgirl focuses on empowering Black
(01:26):
adolescent girls by boostingtheir self-esteem.
She also supports sensitiveadolescents and young adults of
color dealing with anxiety,perfectionism and relationship
challenges.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind-the-scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
(01:46):
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in Well, nody.
(02:17):
Welcome back to the podcast.
I'm so excited to have you hereagain.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (02:21):
Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me
back.
I'm really happy that we get tochat again and maybe have a
little different of aconversation this time.
April Snow (02:28):
Me too.
Yeah, I'm excited to dive intothe work that you're doing now,
and so last time we talked aboutwe started off with your HSP
discovery story, which is whatwe usually start with.
But I want to dive a little bitdeeper this time and look at a
different part of yourexperience and that connects to
the work that you're doing now.
So I'm curious if you're opento sharing your experience
growing up as a sensitive Blackteen what that was like for you.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (02:50):
Yeah, I was just at my old high school
today, so I definitely have alot of memories that have
flooded back.
I remember feeling verymisunderstood.
I felt like what was interestingwas that I was such an
emotional person and sensorythings so like prevalent in my
mind, like the weather or, youknow, the day of the week or the
(03:12):
holiday season, like everythingwas just super big for me and I
would get a lot of commentsfrom people, even sometimes
within, like my inner circlethat I needed to just let it go.
I shouldn't linger on things, Iwas being too sensitive, I was
personalizing things a lot, so Ifelt like this was an issue for
(03:32):
me.
I didn't know how to correct itat the time or if I needed to,
but I think I was very worriedthat my sensitivity was going to
get in the way of futuresuccess as I became an adult and
I tried really hard to not showthat side of myself, but it
just always felt like I wasputting on like a costume that
didn't feel comfortable and,yeah, it was really hard.
(03:55):
I just felt like there wasalways something wrong that I
needed to like let go of, but Ijust didn't know how to do that
and nobody told me how to do it.
April Snow (04:04):
Right, you're just getting told just to get over it
, let it go.
That's not really helpful.
Like, what do you do with that?
You know you can't change howyour nervous system is
responding to your environment,how you're feeling, and it makes
sense that well, okay, I'mdoomed to feel this way forever,
can't change it.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (04:23):
Yeah, yeah.
I just thought like, oh my gosh, college and getting a job and
future relationships as an adult, like how am I going to do this
?
Because I'm such a sensitiveperson and I was just told that
was a weakness or that was goingto get in the way of me being
able to progress as a person.
So I was just very worriedabout my future, and I think
(04:43):
other people were worried too.
Like well, if she can't letthings go, or if she's always
holding onto her emotions, howis she going to be able to move
forward in life?
So I internalized that a lotgrowing up as a teen of like
there's something wrong with meand I need to figure this out,
otherwise there's going to beconsequences later on.
April Snow (05:02):
Right, you think this is just going to persist
and life is going to get harderbecause you hear how hard
college is and how hard it is tofind a job and be an adult.
It's like, well, how am Isupposed to do all of that when
I feel this way and other peopleare implying, or maybe being
explicit, that, oh, this is aproblem.
You know, you can't be thissensitive and be in the world.
(05:28):
That's pretty terrifying right,thinking like, oh, I'm going to
, just I'm going to struggle.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (05:35):
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
When you just said that.
Yeah, that's what it felt like,like it's going to be a
struggle.
It's going to be really hardfor me to obtain the goals that
I want for myself because of whoI am.
April Snow (05:46):
Yeah, I imagine that's what leads you then.
I'm curious to hear how you gotthrough that.
But I think we'll get into thatthrough our conversation.
But I imagine that's a bigreason why you decided to work
with teen girls yourself.
You understand where you'recoming from.
I'm curious to hear more aboutthat.
What led you to this work?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (06:05):
understand where you're coming from.
I'm curious to hear more aboutthat.
What led you to this work?
Yeah, it kind of happened byaccident.
In a weird way.
I was doing a lot of like myinternships with teenagers.
I was getting paired with a lotof teen girls of color,
especially a lot of black teens,and I didn't have any
experience before like learninghow to do psychotherapy and
counseling with teenagers, but Ijust remember they would open
(06:27):
up so fast to me and I think,because they were talking to
someone that looked similar tothem, had a similar identity and
similar experiences as asensitive person, that they felt
it was a safe enough space andenvironment to be more
vulnerable.
And the more I was talking tothem, I realized like wow, a lot
of these things I say to thesegirls I didn't hear growing up.
(06:50):
Like that was just such asurreal experience of like oh,
this is what I wish.
I heard when I was a teen.
I wish someone was more patientwith me and I found myself
being very patient with thesegirls and the more I was patient
, the more I could see it wouldjust inspire them to start doing
certain things because theyknew like okay, like someone
(07:12):
believes in me, I can do thisstuff.
And that was like a realturning point where I was like,
oh, I really wish I had me whenI was younger to say, yeah, I
believe in you, you can do it,you can handle it.
That positive messaging itmeans a lot to the girls I work
with and I know it definitelywould have meant a lot to me
when I was younger.
April Snow (07:34):
Yeah, it's like you're speaking to your younger
self through them.
Yeah, how powerful that is to,instead of someone joining in
your despair to say, no, there'sanother way.
Right, it could actually beokay.
I mean that encouragement goesa long way first to be seen, but
then to be encouraged.
I'm curious, you know, asyou're giving them those
(07:55):
positive messages, what startsto shift.
Is there more hope?
Is there more possibility?
Do they feel you know moreworthy?
I'm just curious what happenswhen you hear something positive
versus something negative?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (08:12):
It feels like there's, from what I'm
seeing with the girls I workwith, there's more hope of, oh,
it's not going to be a struggle,or oh wait, like I've already
done a lot of amazing things.
That's something I've noticedtoo, and I focus on
perfectionism and anxiety withblack teen girls and a lot of
the times they come to methey're like I haven't
accomplished anything great, Ihaven't really struggled in my
(08:36):
life.
And I have to remind them, likeyou have been through things,
you have accomplished things,but maybe in your mind, because
it happened a little differentlyfor you, you don't think it's
worthy of any kind ofrecognition or praise.
And it's just interesting whenthey start to reflect on, oh,
like I have been able to dothings for myself or I know who
(08:57):
I am as a person.
I just never told anyone.
It seems like it gives a lot ofthem hope of like I know who I
am, I know what I want and aslong as I have that
encouragement to pursue it, Iseems like it gives a lot of
them hope of like I know who Iam, I know what I want and as
long as I have thatencouragement to pursue it, I
can do it and that's reallybeautiful to me to see is just a
girl who starts to reallybelieve in her own power of like
.
Oh wait, I'm not like anextrovert or I'm not like, you
(09:20):
know, other kids in my school,but I have a lot I can do and
there's a lot I can offer otherpeople the power of the reframe.
April Snow (09:30):
I mean because nothing's changing right.
You're still sensitive, you'restill potentially introverted,
you're still getting overwhelmedsometimes or having those big
feelings.
But it's just looking at itthrough a different lens, saying
like, oh, actually I am capable.
Yeah, there are things here Iam capable.
Yeah, there are things here Ican celebrate about myself and
(09:50):
it's not all bad.
I mean, that is such a powerfulrealization to have.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (09:56):
Yeah, yeah, it's very powerful and I think
it's interesting because I alsowork with parents, with Black
parents.
It's interesting because I alsowork with parents, with black
parents, and I can tell there'sa lot of projection happening of
like I know what it's like tobe a young black girl and
growing up it's very challenging.
People don't believe in you, soyou have to have this tough
skin because otherwise, if youdon't have it, you can't move
(10:18):
forward, and that creates whatit seems like a lot of
perfectionism within the family,of like we need to show up in a
certain way to be successful,and then the kids feel guilty of
like well, I'm not like that.
And I know what that's like too,that I'm not this tough skin
person.
So getting guidance around howcan you actually maneuver
(10:40):
through life without having thisarmor on is just a lot of
unlearning.
So what you said about thereframing makes so much sense.
It's a lot of reframing of like.
What does success mean?
When you're a highly sensitiveperson, that can be different
for you.
April Snow (10:55):
Yeah, yeah, Unlearning, is it?
You know just kind of pullingaway those messages.
And the last time we talked,you talked about you know this
permission you give yourself tolive a softer life, and it makes
sense that that you get stuckin perfectionism.
You know what other choices doyou have, or do you think that
you have, and that's very realright.
(11:16):
You have to be tough.
I think you had shared beforethat you can find those pockets
of softness.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (11:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
The pockets of softness, Ithink is what I definitely feel
as a teenager kind of protectedme a lot that I knew that I was
soft, like I love listening to,like movie soundtracks, I love
children's shows, I just likesoft, fun, playful things, and I
(11:44):
think that actually protectedme from certain things that
teens go through.
I didn't always feel this needto prove something to other
people.
It was like, well, I like thisand this makes me feel safe, so
I'm going to, I'm going to stickwith this.
So that was my thing.
But then sometimes people werelike, well, you're not really
like a teenager, becauseteenagers are supposed to want
(12:04):
to take a lot of risk and dosome weird stuff.
And I was just like that justdoesn't feel like me, I can't, I
can't do it.
April Snow (12:13):
Yeah, doesn't feel like me, I can't.
I can't do it.
Yeah, you just let yourself bewho you are, your own version of
a teenager.
But you're right, there's thatpressure because the teenagers
are usually pretty chaotic andyou're taking risks and you're
pushing limits.
But there's some way that yourealize, oh, I can do this my
own way.
How did you get get there?
Was it your parents or justsomething in yourself that you
(12:36):
were able to give yourself thatpermission?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (12:39):
I think part of it was from my parents.
My parents are in the film andtelevision world and so I grew
up with art like we always wentto art museums, we always went
to the movies.
I love drawing and painting andI love making my own movies,
like on my computer when I was akid, and I like making my own
songs.
I think being around a creativefamily made it normal to want
(13:02):
to engage with the arts orthings that were just more like
somatic things I could feel inmy body and so that was great.
It was always great being aroundparents who loved art, because
I know kids whose parents aremore scientific or into
financial work and I'm like Ihave no idea Seems like a
different world.
Everything's about facts, butyeah, I think my parents were
(13:25):
the ones that really supportedme in art.
But then also I would just likemaybe I would just see like a
character in a movie likeanother teenager was like
writing in a journal or theywould do something with their
friends or like some kind oflike role playing and stuff and
I would take inspiration fromthat.
I'm like, oh, I want to trythat for myself and see how that
(13:45):
feels.
So yeah, I was always superobservant.
I was always watching myenvironment and anything that I
thought was interesting I triedit for myself.
So I would find little pocketsof things that I liked.
April Snow (13:58):
I love that, yeah, on your Instagram, I love that
you share different charactersthat you relate to as a
sensitive person.
It's like, yes, I love that,because those are sometimes the
only way that you might seeyourself or part of your
temperament If you don't comefrom a family who's a little
more permission giving, who'smore soft or creative.
Yeah, there's those ways tofind it.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (14:20):
Yeah, yeah.
Actually, when you were justsaying about the characters, my
mom introduced me to thisJapanese filmmaker named Hayao
Miyazaki and he always had thesegirls that were just really
sensitive.
They're very emotional, butthey were also very ambitious.
They would have their ownbusinesses or they were very
protective of their family, likethey could get a lot done even
(14:43):
when they felt so muchemotionally.
I would see these charactersand I was like that feels like
me, like I have all these goals,I have all these dreams and I'm
very emotional because I'm sopassionate about things.
So I felt like they understood,even though they weren't real
people, but there was somethingthat resonated for me about
seeing them in those films.
(15:04):
Like that feels like me, like Ican identify with that.
April Snow (15:08):
Yeah, it's like, here's someone that's embodying
both sensitivity and passion andambition at the same time, and
I love that reframe that maybeit's not well, you're emotional
but also you're passionate,right.
That's such a positive spin onit, which is true as sensitive
people.
It's like, oh, I mean, howbeautiful of your mom to pass
(15:28):
that along to you.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (15:28):
Yeah, yeah, I don't know how she heard
about this Japanese director,but I mean she loves films from
other countries, so it was justit felt like such a gift that
she was like, hey, there's thisworld of characters that are not
, like you know, stereotypical,like Disney princesses or other
things in western culture that Iwould see, and it was just like
it just blew my mind and I wasso emotional watching these
(15:51):
movies oh, thank you, you felt.
You felt seen.
Yeah, yeah, I felt really seen.
It was just like I would alwayscry at the end of every, every
film he made, because it justspoke to me so much.
April Snow (16:04):
It's so powerful to see what's possible for a
sensitive person and just to bemore dynamic.
Especially you're getting thisexternal pressure is to put
yourself in this little box.
You know, be tough, be strong.
Whatever it is, it's like, no,I can be gooey on the inside
(16:24):
yeah, yeah it is.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (16:26):
It's pretty amazing because, yeah, I think
that's not.
I don't know if I guess inwestern culture we don't see
women and girls in that way,particularly like Black women
and girls.
It's like very like masculinecharacters that I would see on
TV and I was like that's not me.
I don't identify with someonewho's very aggressive and they
(16:47):
would always be portrayed aslike violent or just not
empathic and I was like that'snot me at all.
I don't identify with that.
April Snow (16:54):
Right, it's so limiting and I would say
probably all the Black HSPs I'vetalked to feel stuck in that
box of oh I can only be this oneway.
I can only be strong with thattough skin.
It's like no, there's more tome than that.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (17:09):
Yeah, definitely that resonates for me
.
It makes a lot, a lot of sense,yeah, exactly what you're
saying.
April Snow (17:14):
Like, no, I'm strong and I'm ambitious, but I'm also
soft and emotional and complex.
How reductive that is to havethat be the only example.
So you had to kind of lookoutside of you know what's
available here.
Okay, what other characters canI resonate with and that
actually speaks to me more?
I mean, would be great if that.
(17:35):
Well, I'm not sure if this istrue, but I would imagine I
would love to see that withsomeone that looks like me but,
this is maybe the next bestthing.
Yeah, absolutely yeah.
And what, before we get intotalking about anxiety,
imperfections and more somethingthat came up as you were
talking I'm wondering, wondering, you know, you do you say to
(17:56):
that parent who has a sensitiveBlack girl and maybe doesn't
(18:19):
understand them, is theresomething that you would say to
maybe just give them someperspective or some reassurance,
if anything comes to mind?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (18:36):
if anything comes to mind.
Yeah, that's a really goodquestion.
I usually do tell parents thatnaturally, a lot of HSPs are
drawn to the arts and even ifI've had some kids that they
still like more of the sciences,but there's this like human
element they love about it oflike I want to help find cures
for diseases, to help otherpeople and making sure that
parents know that their child'sidea of a successful career or
(19:01):
life it can look different.
It's still successful for them,but yeah, it can come in a
different form and sometimesI'll just tell people about
different examples of you know,black women in different fields
that I've seen and their ownsuccess journey.
But yeah, there's a lot ofunlearning of being patient with
your kid and saying, okay, likemaybe I don't have all the
(19:22):
answers, because I know that's aprotective thing.
You want to make sure your kidis safe is that these kids have
really strong intuition, so ifthey feel pulled to something
it's for a reason, and that tolet them actually explore it
before you cut them off and go.
Oh wait, that might not workout for you Cause, yeah, I've
always felt that, when I was ateen too, that there were things
(19:45):
I wanted to explore.
But then when I was told, well,maybe that won't be a
successful path, it was like, ohokay, I'm not, I'm gonna just
give that up.
So yeah, just allowing them toexplore and also like trusting,
if they're not attached, thatthey'll find something else.
April Snow (20:01):
Yeah, it's such a good reminder that even as
teenagers, sensitive kids, havestrong intuition and they have
that passion, that commitment,and they may change their mind a
few times, but I mean, they'regoing to really put their all
into it and it may lookdifferent than what you hoped as
a parent or what you understandas a non-HSP human, but to
(20:25):
trust them.
What a good reminder.
Right, they know themselves sowell.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (20:30):
Right.
April Snow (20:31):
Yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (20:31):
And I remind parents and kids because
sometimes I work with themtogether in a space that it's
not working as a team, likethat's the point when other like
whether they're looking atcolleges or they're looking at
career options that the point isthat they work together as a
team so that the teenager knows,okay, like I can go explore
because my parent is going tosupport me in that exploration
(20:54):
process.
Instead of this, what I tend tosee a lot when I first work
with kids is this anxiety of Ican't disappoint mom and dad or
whoever else is in the family,because they're expecting this.
So I need to move the way thatthey're hoping I will.
But yeah, I remind it's kind oflike couples therapy in a weird
way.
It's like we're on the sameteam, like that's the point is
(21:15):
to make sure that the kid feelsthey can go explore what they're
interested in.
April Snow (21:19):
Yeah, seeing the same thing.
Yeah, it's just like a coupleright.
The more that you're trustedand that you're working together
, more is possible, right.
And when that child feels safeto explore and to follow their
passions, you know they're goingto be so much more successful
than trying to fight somethingthat isn't a good fit.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (21:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And when I was just answeringyour question before, I was
thinking about when I was atcollege as an undergrad and I
was studying nutrition and Ithought, oh, I really should be
in the science because I wastold that was like the best type
of career was to be in a STEMtype of career.
And I got to the end of collegeand I was like I'm just not
(22:03):
feeling it and I realized likemaybe it's not because I'm not
good at this, I'm just notinterested.
I was really interested inpsychology and I told my dad
like isn't this like the worstthing?
That I came through four yearsof school and I don't want to do
nutrition?
And he was like that's okay,it's okay if you change your
mind.
I was like what?
(22:24):
Like no, like don't you saylike oh, that's a disappointment
.
But no, he was like no, I feltthat way too and I was like oh.
So it was like hearing amessage like that of like it's
okay if you change your mind,it's okay if you don't want to
commit to this anymore.
It sounds like you know whatyou want.
And it really helped.
(22:44):
I was just like okay, yeah, Idon't think this is for me
anymore.
April Snow (22:49):
Yeah, it's such a good reminder to just push away
those messages that say you haveto do X, y, z.
It's like, well, what if I'mnot interested?
What if it's not a fit?
I had a very similar experience.
I studied plant biology becauseI thought there's a steady path
.
I always circle all thepsychology courses like longing
(23:10):
for them.
I thought, no, you need to bepractical.
But I never used that degreebecause I wasn't interested in
it.
I was like oh, and now I'm goingto go back to grad school and
actually study psychology.
Yes, it's such a good reminder,though, that follow your gut.
Even if it doesn't make senseright away or it doesn't seem
like the practical choice, itmight actually be.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (23:32):
Yeah.
That sticks out for me.
When you said I need to bepractical, that's what I thought
too, like no, I have to takeorganic chemistry and biochem
because, like people understandthose jobs or understand like
nutrition, like we're at ahospital, like, yeah, let's be
practical, let's not be likefantastical with helping people.
(23:52):
But I really felt pulled to thepsychology classes at school
and I was like this comes sonaturally to me, this is so easy
, and it was like my intuition'syeah, you should check this out
, you should look at psychology.
But then the other part of notwanting to disappoint people was
like no, that's not areasonable path.
(24:13):
You need to stick with science.
April Snow (24:14):
Yeah right, yeah, it's like that's the practical
choice, the typical route, andsaying, well, no, this is just
trying to put a square peg in around hole.
It's not going to work.
It's interesting that you know.
I think what you're sharingreminds me that there's all
these layers of messaging fromyourself to your family, to the
outside world, and you can gethooked into one.
(24:37):
It's like, well, if we justpause and check in with what's
really important.
And you know, when you checkedin with your dad, he's like,
yeah, that's totally okay.
It's like, oh right, it's fine,but we get stuck.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (24:54):
Yeah, it's confusing because it's like I
think, especially as an HSP thefear of upsetting someone or
someone being disappointed thatwas just me like one of the
worst feelings ever, and I thinkeven as an adult I still feel
that way, and so that was wheremy brain was as a younger person
(25:14):
.
Was I need to make sureeverybody's okay with me?
I need to be able to maintainthese relationships with friends
, family, teachers.
And it really was blocking outmy intuitive side, because I was
so tapped into what otherpeople were feeling and when I
would get a message of, likeit's not about what other people
(25:34):
want, it's about what you want,and I was like, oh yeah, who am
I doing this for?
Again, it was like a check in,like wait, no, it's not me.
Like, this is my path, this ismy life.
So I would hear that sometimesfrom people and it was like, oh
yeah, I forgot, like what I wasdoing this for, who I was doing
this for.
April Snow (25:55):
I know it's so easy to get locked in and the
intuition is just inaccessible.
So let's slow it down and checkin and see what's really true.
You're talking about, I think,anxiety that bubbles up during
those years and I'm wonderinghow, if you are a teen girl a
Black teen girl, maybe a Blacksensitive teen girl how it just
(26:19):
it seems impossible to unhookfrom anxiety.
I'm just wondering how can youdo that?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (26:30):
Yeah, from anxiety.
I'm just wondering how can youdo that?
Yeah, I think, yeah, I thinkthe support system is so
important in that moment.
And I've seen, even if they'renot getting it from home or from
friends, when they come totherapy and they talk to me,
it's like okay, somebody islistening to me about all these
anxious feelings that I'm havingand I get to like unfold this
anxiety so I can start to reallyhear my own self.
(26:51):
So that's.
I just have seen that reallyjust changes the trajectory for
a lot of girls I work with, thatthey have someone who's just
going to listen, not give a lotof criticism and judgment of
like you should do this or youshould focus on this, because
that's mostly what they hear andthat just feeds into the
(27:11):
anxiety of I'm not doing enough,I'm not good enough, I'm not
working hard enough, I'm notmaking people happy enough, and
coming into a space where it'slike you're not here to take
care of me, I'm here to takecare of you, and that I just
think, as a black teen, hsp,that's like it's kind of mind
blowing because you're justalways thinking I have to take
care of someone else.
It's not about me, it's aboutother people and therapy at
(27:35):
first is a little strangebecause like, oh, this feels
kind of selfish.
I've heard kids say that, likeit's selfish to talk about
yourself.
But they're not used to that.
They're not used to justspeaking for themselves instead
of thinking about what someoneelse needs from them yeah, you
give them a space to just seteverything down, even if it's
uncomfortable at first.
April Snow (27:54):
Eventually they realize oh, this is a space I
can be myself, I can let it allout.
You can actually receivesomething back.
I'm not need to worry abouteveryone else all the time.
I don't have to worry aboutbeing so tough keeping that
exterior on.
Yeah, it's a place that you canreceive that support and I
appreciate that you said youknow it doesn't have to come
(28:15):
from everywhere.
Even one person, a therapist,could make a difference.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (28:21):
Yeah, it absolutely does.
I mean, I think even for me myown therapy it's helped so much
but just the therapeuticrelationship of someone else
taking care of you and you notfeeling you have to go above and
beyond or overstep your ownboundaries to keep people um
connected to you.
It's just there's so muchunlearning that comes with that
(28:44):
and I always ask the kids likewhat do you want, what are your
favorite classes?
Like, what do you dream about?
So they're always like well, Idon't really think about like
this stuff I don't tell anyonewhat I want, because that might
not be what they want and justremembering that it's about
centering them in life.
And it's a beautiful thing towant to center other people
(29:06):
until you start to lose yourselfin other people's journeys and
you forget that it's not up toyou to figure out what everybody
else wants.
April Snow (29:16):
That's powerful, like, oh, I can actually think
about myself even a little bitin this one space for this
moment.
What a change.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (29:30):
Yeah, it's just like eye opening, like,
yeah, and it takes a while to.
I've noticed it takes it's likesometimes a few years just for
a teen to go.
Oh okay, it's about me, it'sabout my safety, it's about my
goals, my dreams, my future.
It can take a while andsometimes when I meet a kid it's
(29:50):
in the middle of a lot oftrauma, like especially a lot of
relationship trauma and workingthrough that of the grief of I
thought I did everything forthis person and then it all fell
apart.
It is really painful for teens,so it's just reminding them
like you could be the mostamazing, wonderful person and
also, maybe you can't fixeverybody's stuff, and that's
(30:13):
okay too.
April Snow (30:14):
Yeah, that's hard to sit with everything.
I worked so hard, I gave somuch.
Why didn't this work out?
Yeah, it's really hard and theperfect time to be able to lean
on someone else and have them beheld up, but it is.
It's a long process.
I appreciate that you said ittakes years, because it really
does.
(30:34):
There's a lot of you know.
Just to go back to that word,unlearning, there's a lot of
unlearning to do.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (30:40):
Yeah yeah, there's so much unlearning.
And I also wanted to add that Ithink within the Black
community I've heard this from alot of clients and I felt this
way that there's this guilt thatif I am doing well, I'm
leavinging my family and friendsand that's not a good thing and
(31:05):
that's really challenging,because you want to show
gratitude for your relationshipsbut also to keep yourself stuck
because other people are stuck.
It doesn't get you to where youwant to be.
So that's always like thisinteresting balance of how do I
show up for other people but Istill show up for myself at the
(31:26):
same time.
April Snow (31:27):
Stakes are high.
To take care of yourself andmaybe set down that
responsibility for a littlewhile, yeah, wow.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (31:35):
Yeah.
April Snow (31:37):
I mean that guilt as a sensitive person is high, but
then if you're a blacksensitive person, it's even
higher and you're compounding it.
I mean, how do is it just beingable to model it in therapy?
You know, experience it intherapy.
Is that enough, or is theremore that you need to do to be
able to say it's okay to takecare of me?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (31:58):
I think modeling it in therapy is that's
one way to do it and I've alsobeen feeling, just in my
professional work, thatindividual therapy sometimes I'm
feeling like it's not hittingdifferent parts of a teenager
and I always love doing groupwork because I just find so much
strength and like multiplepeople working together to
(32:21):
figure something out.
So I've been investigating moreof that, Like how do I bring
mothers and daughters togetherso they can have these
conversations about what are theexpectations and the
relationships?
But yeah, like it's individualwork is great.
And then I also realized likecommunal effort and the strength
of the community is just soimportant and I think, because
(32:43):
Black girls are always expectedto grow up faster and to be
responsible more quickly thanother teenagers, that you can
get left behind as a teen girl.
You're going to have to figurethat out for yourself and it's
like, well, they're still kids,they're still trying to
understand and develop andmature, so they still need a lot
(33:03):
of support too.
And kids feel a lot of shameabout asking for help of like
well, I should know how to takecare of myself at a young age
and I remind them like it's okayif you don't you're still
really young, trying to figureit out and reminding them it's
okay if you need more of yourcommunity to help you.
April Snow (33:21):
Yeah, and it makes sense that being able to bring
that into a group setting, soyou get to work out those group
dynamics in a therapeuticsetting where you feel safe and
supported and there's room tomake mistakes and to talk it
through, kind of like try it onright and then be able to take
it out you need that, thatcommunity support, and you need
(33:44):
to be able to lean on multiplepeople and figure out how to
communicate in a group.
It makes sense while you'regravitating towards that work.
It's so powerful and soimportant.
Yeah, as you're talking aboutthis burden, to do it all on
your own.
Take care of everybody else, Iwonder.
(34:07):
I've heard you talk about thisconcept of superwoman syndrome.
I'm wondering if that is, ifwe're getting into that realm is
would that be what that is?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (34:18):
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I know that that's beenresearched a lot, especially
recently, about black womenfeeling they need to lift up the
community and their familiesand just like be the caretaker
for a lot of people for so longand seeing just so much
(34:48):
resentment and anger of likenobody took care of me when I
needed support or I was so busylifting up other people that
nobody said hey, like how is shedoing there?
Like how are you doing?
It's like you know, that's noteven a thought.
It's like no, you're justsupposed to be there to hold
other people up.
Kind of like you're thefoundation of a whole house and
that's a lot of pressure.
So it's just interesting thatit's not being normalized
(35:09):
anymore.
I think for younger generationsto be that superwoman of like
it's okay if you have needs,it's okay to have boundaries,
and that's hard, I think witholder generations of Black women
it can feel a little selfish oflike well, I didn't have that
opportunity to take care ofmyself or do things for myself.
I was responsible for otherpeople and how can you get to
(35:30):
just walk away and do your ownthing?
I've seen that a lot in my workand, yeah, the idea of self
care is just.
It's interesting how I've seenwith like a young teen girl it
can feel like such a selfishthing or it feels neglectful of
other people.
Like I should be able to givemy whole self every day to
(35:52):
everyone.
And then that's my fear is thatthey're going to turn into an
older woman who's very resentfuland there's a lot of grief of
what, like she didn't getgrowing up or not getting enough
support, and that doesn't feellike that should be normalized
to me anymore.
It just it seems unfair.
(36:13):
I think because of what Blackwomen have gone through for so
long, it's like it doesn't makesense that we should still be
responsible for everybody.
It's a lot to do for everybody.
April Snow (36:23):
It's a lot to do.
It's a lot to do.
I mean, like you say, in thepast, holding up whole
households.
That's a lot on a Black woman'sshoulders.
So I could see there's a lot ofintergenerational healing that
needs to happen.
If you're a young Black girl,you're getting the messages,
maybe from your elders, that youshould be hyper-independent,
you should be that superwoman,because that's what I did and
(36:43):
why should it be any different?
But yeah, it's hard.
You're trying to break that andsay, no, it's okay to self-care
, it's okay to have those softpockets of your life, it's okay
to take care of yourself for alittle while.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (36:55):
that, I imagine, is a really tough cycle
to break oh yeah, yeah, it's areally really tough cycle to
break, because it's not easy tolive as a black person in this
climate.
Yeah, yeah, and that's I think.
When I was younger, that waslike the fear that if I was soft
and sensitive, I was just sobreakable that my environment in
(37:19):
America was just going to pullme in half.
Because I'm not, I wasn't toughenough to be able to get
through all these differentracist, misogynistic
environments.
And, yeah, I realized thatwasn't true.
At first I internalized it oflike oh, I need to be a
superwoman so I can handle allof this pressure.
(37:40):
But as I got older and I had myown therapy, I realized, like
wait, I can actually like walkaway from that.
If that's not something I wantto be a part of, is this cycle.
I can create something else formyself.
And that for a long time didn'tfeel like an option of like well
, this is the way it's alwaysbeen, so you have to be this way
(38:00):
.
And then it was like, ah, but Idon't want to keep going in
this direction if it doesn'tmake me feel good and there's
risk to going off and doing yourown thing and not following
what other people have done.
But it's just also liberating.
It's like wait, I don't have tobe the super woman If this is
exhausting.
I don't want to be exhaustedanymore.
April Snow (38:20):
Yeah Right, you can actually be a human, which I
mean a super woman is not human.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (38:30):
It's like a made up character, right, and
it's like wait a minute.
Yeah, it's like wait a minute.
Yeah, like a super persondoesn't usually have needs.
April Snow (38:37):
Like they're just taking care of everybody else
exactly, and even those blackelder women.
They had to rest sometime,because you're saying they are
human.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (38:48):
Maybe they didn't show it or ask for help,
but they they, I'm sure, neededit as human beings yeah, yeah,
which I when I think I guessgrowing up observing it, I would
always see black women napping.
That was like, yeah, it was inthese like small moments.
I would see like sometimes mymom would just go take a nap.
(39:08):
That's something she's alwaysdone since I was a kid, but it
was in that.
It was like, in between thisreally hectic schedule with all
these different responsibilities, oh, let me just take a nap.
April Snow (39:20):
Yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (39:20):
And I think there is a.
I don't think she's a therapist, but like a someone who has
something called a nap ministry.
April Snow (39:27):
I was just thinking of her, yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (39:28):
Yeah, I forgot her name, but this black
woman who embraces napping likeit is a form of rest and it's an
ancestral form of rest, and Imean, from what I've read and
what I know, black women havebeen doing that for so long.
Like, throughout a very hecticand exhausting day, you find a
time to nap and I do that now,actually, when I think about it,
(39:51):
like I love naps, but for along time I thought napping was
lazy.
Was lazy like, no, like you'renot supposed to nap, you're
supposed to keep going until yougo to bed no, there's wisdom in
napping, yeah it's a restart.
April Snow (40:07):
it's a great restart , it's an amazing restart.
And just to see that you know,these really strong women are
also embracing naps.
It's like, oh yes, we needbreaks, right, we need rest, we
need to slow down, and maybethat was their acceptable
version of it.
But now you're like, well,let's expand that even further.
Sensitive girls of color whoare maybe struggling with
(40:39):
getting stuck in that superwomansyndrome or stuck in
perfectionism, or wanting totake up more space for
themselves is there a messagethat you could leave them with?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (40:45):
I think I would love to say you are going
to disappoint people, but thatdoesn't mean you're doing
something wrong or that what youwant is inappropriate.
It could mean that you're goingon a path that other people
don't agree with or maybe don'tfeel is important to them, but
what to me, real strength is issaying well, if it feels right
(41:08):
to me, then I'm going to keeppursuing that.
And it's also inspiring to seesomeone who is not so concerned
about what other people want forthem or need for them, but puts
themselves first and say, if Iwant to be happy, embodied and
just loving, that this is thepath that works the best for me
(41:28):
and that's how I can be the bestversion of myself.
I just have always found thatin black people just so
beautiful and so inspiring thatit's like you.
Just you do what feels right toyou.
That's really powerful.
April Snow (41:42):
Yeah trust yourself yeah and don't be afraid to lean
into those pockets of softnessand that support and doing
things differently.
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot ofit's needed.
Yeah, yeah it's needed well,noni, I just want to thank you
so much.
I feel like we could talk forhours, I know like I'm on a roll
(42:04):
, I could keep I know, I'm sadthat we're out of time.
there's so much more to say, andI just want to remind folks
that you do have a lot ofresources available on your
instagram, your website.
You mentioned that you offergroups, so if just want to
remind folks that you do have alot of resources available on
your Instagram, your website,you mentioned that you offer
groups, so if folks want tomaybe get in touch with you for
a future group, how could theydo that?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (42:22):
Well, one of my Instagram handle is at
Afro and Appetite, and if theywould like to reach out about
group work, you can email me atmy professional email, which is
noni, at rootsarttherapynyc.
April Snow (42:36):
Great, and I'll put that in the show notes for folks
as well.
Thank you so much, yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard (42:40):
Thanks so much, April.
April Snow (42:50):
Thanks so much for joining me and Noni for today's
conversation.
I hope you'll remember to giveyourself permission to rest and
care for yourself, and that it'sokay to receive as much support
as you're giving to everyoneelse.
And if you're interested inworking with Noni one-to-one or
attending one of her groups,you'll find her contact
information in the show notes.
(43:10):
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSB resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, tiktokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
(43:35):
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
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