June 3, 2025 • 49 mins
Do you have mysterious fatigue or physical symptoms? In this episode, I talk with Audrey Burke, LMBT, SEP about the somatic impact of stress and trauma as well as:
• Connections between early life trauma, emotional dysregulation, and high sensitivity
• The different types of trauma present from birth through adulthood
• The long-term impact of adverse babyhood and childhood experiences
• How to increase resilience and begin healing through safe relationships
Audrey is a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, massage therapist and Transforming Touch practitioner based in Durham, North Carolina. As a highly sensitive person herself, she discovered somatic work through her own healing journey and found that somatic support was the missing piece in her path to mysterious health symptoms and feeling at home in her body. Now, she helps other highly sensitive people heal from shock trauma, developmental trauma, chronic stress, and nervous system dysregulation, supporting them in feeling safer in themselves and the world.
Keep in touch with Audrey:
• Website: http://www.restorativepresence.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/somaticswithaudrey
• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@somaticswithaudrey
Resources Mentioned:
• Somatic Healing Guide: https://www.restorativepresence.com
• Book a Session with Audrey: https://calendly.com/restorativepresence-1/
• Find a Local Touch Practitioner: https://coregulatingtouch.com
Thanks for listening! You can read the full show notes and sign up for my email list to get new episode announcements and other resources at:
https://www.sensitivestories.com
You can also follow "SensitiveStrengths" for behind-the-scenes content plus more educational and inspirational HSP resources:
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sensitivestrengths
- TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sensitivestrengths
- Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@sensitivestrengths
And for more support, attend a Sensitive Sessions monthly workshop: https://www.sensitivesessions.com. Use code PODCAST for 25% off.
If you have a moment, please rate and review the podcast, it helps Sensitive Stories reach more HSPs!
This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional.
Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Audrey Burke (00:00):
When these traumas happen in a relationship.
They really are best healedthrough a relationship, when
we're healing relational wounds,especially if you didn't get
the attunement you needed.
It's about having reparativeexperiences Now.
As an adult, working with apractitioner is super, super
important for these early wounds.
So often people withdevelopmental trauma have been
(00:24):
doing it all by themselves for areally long time.
April Snow (00:35):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:57):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withAudrey Berg about the connection
between early life trauma,emotional dysregulation and high
sensitivity, as well as how tostart the healing process at any
age.
Audrey is a somaticexperiencing practitioner,
massage therapist andtransforming touch practitioner
(01:17):
based in Durham, north Carolina.
As a highly sensitive personherself, she discovered somatic
work through her own healingjourney and found that somatic
support was a missing piece inher path to mysterious health
symptoms and feeling at home inher body.
Now she helps other HSPs healfrom shock, trauma,
developmental trauma, chronicstress and nervous system
(01:39):
dysregulation, supporting themin feeling safer in themselves
and the world For more HSPresources and to see behind the
scenes video from the podcast,join me on Instagram, tiktok or
YouTube at Sensitive Strengthsor sign up for my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
(02:03):
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Hi Audrey, welcome to thepodcast.
(02:33):
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Audrey Burke (02:35):
Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.
April Snow (02:36):
Thanks for having me , yeah of course, it's so lovely
to connect in person, real time.
I do want to start off byasking you about your HSP
discovery story.
If you remember how or when yourealized that you're highly
sensitive.
Audrey Burke (02:49):
Yeah, I love reflecting on this story and
like continuing to reflect on it.
So I didn't realize I was anHSP until I was about 34 years
old and it was during a timewhere I was feeling really
overwhelmed.
I had roommates and I wouldlook at my roommates and be like
(03:10):
why do they all seem okay andI'm like overwhelmed all the
time.
You know, my roommates werereally comfortable with like
having people sleep over andlike having events at the house
and I like that to some degree.
But I was like reaching mythresholds, yes, and it was even
there was some traffic noise bywhere we live and it was like
really bothering me and they allseemed fine and I was like why,
(03:33):
how am I different?
Like what's going on here?
And then there were a coupleevents.
Right after that one, I had adoctor's appointment with an
integrative doctor and when Iwent in he was asking me about
stress in my life and I was likewell, you know, I'm living with
roommates.
I just feel overwhelmed all thetime and I don't even know why
this word came out of my mouth.
But I just said I'm starting torealize I'm a really sensitive
(03:56):
person.
And he looked at me and waslike well, I could have told you
that.
Okay, so you know, we had aconversation about it and it
just really blew my mind that,you know, here I am 34 years old
and no one had ever pointedthat out to me before.
And then, shortly after that, Iwas looking for a new roommate
(04:18):
or just like a new livingsituation, and I met one woman
who was really lovely, like,lived in a quiet town like 30
minutes outside of the citywhere I lived in, and she fed me
this like nourishing dinner andhad like a cute cat, I mean the
whole environment was likeperfect.
And I was explaining to her whyI was looking for a new place to
(04:40):
live and she was like, oh, youmight be a highly sensitive
person, like I am one too.
And then she gave me the book.
I was like here you go, justkeep it.
April Snow (04:51):
Isn't that the way it happens?
Someone you meet by chance andthey change your whole life.
Here's the book.
Yeah, isn't it amazing?
And you know you're saying howno one ever told me I was
sensitive.
And and we don't realize,because this is the only
experience we know, this is theonly body we've lived in.
Then you start looking outsideof yourself and realizing oh,
(05:14):
something's different about me.
Why am I not reacting the sameway around life that my
roommates do?
Audrey Burke (05:22):
Yeah, and I think the confusing thing was like
some highly sensitive peoplewhen they're younger here often
like, oh, you're too sensitive,but I never heard that.
So like the word sensitive wasnowhere in my consciousness,
like I actually thought I waspretty tough, like, oh, I'm
tough, I can handle all thisstuff.
So I wasn't someone who wastold I was sensitive from a
young age.
April Snow (05:44):
It's funny because when I reflect back as well I
don't remember hearing that butI think a lot of times you just
you show up the way you need to,Yep Right.
And now, as you're saying, I'mwondering like, oh, maybe we
feel like we have to be so toughbecause things are impacting us
more and other people don'thave to be so tough to get
through the same experiences.
(06:06):
Yeah, it's amazing howsometimes we don't know until
much later.
I've met folks who didn'tdiscover it until their fifties
or sixties, or seventies even,and it's like, wow, I had no
idea.
Audrey Burke (06:19):
Yeah, this was a thing, it's just really
incredible, yeah, and justhearing that term really like
changed my sense of self, cause,like I always knew I was kind
of different, but having thewords to put to it, and now also
I felt like I had permission tonot keep up with everyone else,
or like permission to stay in,or permission to not have
roommates or like whatever thething I was like oh these needs
(06:42):
are totally valid, you know.
April Snow (06:43):
Exactly right.
Having that framework reallyhelps a lot.
Puts things in perspective likeoh okay, I'm different and now
I need to take care of thatdifference.
It's not a negative, it's justI need something a little
different.
That's okay.
Yeah, I love that.
So you mentioned, you know, notgrowing up hearing you were
sensitive or maybe evenconsidering that for yourself
(07:04):
but I'm wondering were thereearly influences that shaped
your sensitivity or your nervoussystem?
Audrey Burke (07:11):
Oh yeah, so I am a somatic experiencing
practitioner, so I very muchwork in the realm of trauma and
the interesting thing is there'ssome symptoms of PTSD, or
nervous system dysregulation,that look very similar to some
of the traits of being a highlysensitive person.
So for a bit there was thatquestion of like am I really a
(07:32):
highly sensitive person?
Or like, am I just dysregulatedor am I just traumatized?
And kind of what I've come torealize is like I do feel in my
bones I'm a highly sensitiveperson, like this is the way I
was born.
When I meet other highlysensitive people like you or
some of the kind of spokespeoplefor HSPs, like Elaine Aron or
(07:52):
Judith Orloff, I'm just like Ifeel like we are, we belong
together, there's a kinship.
There's a kinship.
But then on top of that I dohave various kinds of trauma
that I think have added to.
I don't even like using theword sensitivity now, because
I've reclaimed the wordsensitivity but has made me like
(08:14):
, maybe narrowed my window oftolerance or led me to come
overwhelmed more quickly.
I also was never someone whoconsidered myself as having
trauma, even though, like Iclearly had some traumatic
events.
I didn't really present the wayI thought someone with trauma
would present.
So I just assumed like, oh, I'mtough, I'm resilient, like
(08:36):
those things didn't affect me.
But as I've gotten into theworld of somatic experiencing,
I've learned about all thedifferent kinds of trauma and
also how they don't alwayspresent the way you think it
might look.
April Snow (08:49):
Yeah, it's true, you know a lot of times as
sensitive people we areexperiencing maybe little T
traumas at a big level, or evenbig T traumas on a different
scale, so our experiences don'talways match up what we expect.
I'm wondering if you're open tosharing what you thought
(09:10):
someone who's been throughtrauma should look like, just
for context.
Audrey Burke (09:14):
Yeah Well, I definitely thought of like war
veterans, like someone who hadlike shell shock, but I think I
had an image of someone whowasn't very high functioning,
like someone who had a hard timeleaving the house or a hard
time like holding down a job,and I was actually like over
functioning.
I was like an overachiever, butin my day to day life I was
(09:35):
very high functioning.
The funny thing is, lookingback, there actually were
periods where it wasoverwhelming to go outside, but
somehow I just still didn'tidentify with the word like
traumatized.
Like when I was in the yogaworld and there'd be trauma,
sensitive yoga.
I was like, oh, that's not forme, that's for other people.
April Snow (09:56):
Right when we don't fit into the box, and I think a
lot of HSPs relate to this.
Like we, sometimes we don'tfeel like we fit into the HSP
box, but we also might not fitinto the traumatic experiences
box.
And I want to get more intoyour specific specialty.
But before we do that, I'm justthinking about what the impact
of that is, of not being able torealize what you've been
(10:19):
through.
You know, to say, oh, I havehad these experiences, it has
impacted me, just not in the waythat I expected, because I'm
also an over-functioner.
So that's the direction I wentto and I was like, oh, I'm
Brazilian, I'm so tough and I'm,you know, I'm not so sensitive.
But then realizing, yes, thatis true, and kind of start to
(10:40):
unpack the impacts of thoseearly experiences, but, yeah, is
it important to be able torecognize, oh, this is trauma,
this is what I was experiencing.
Audrey Burke (10:51):
Yeah, in some ways I don't love the word trauma in
general because I think it'slike such a big word Some people
over-identify with it.
Some people under-identify withit, but really what it is is
just like nervous systemimprints.
Yes, great, under identify withit, but really what it is is
just like nervous systemimprints and, yes, great.
You know, I think re rewordingit helps people relate to it
maybe a little bit more, but Ido think it's important.
(11:13):
I think a lot of peopledownplay what they've been
through because they're like oh,other people have it worse.
Yes, but your nervous systemisn't so much focused on what
other people have been through.
It's on, like, what your body'sexperienced.
And even if other people havemaybe had it worse, like your
body, processing what it's beenthrough is still really
(11:35):
important.
And another thing that Iprobably did in my own journey
was there's probably times whereI was overriding my capacity,
like putting myself insituations that were maybe
really outside my window oftolerance, but I'm just like
telling myself I can handle it,when maybe I could have backed
off and that would have beenbetter for me.
April Snow (11:56):
I feel like that's a common experience for us as
sensitive people needing to pushbeyond our limits.
Are you open to sharing anexample of what you mean by?
I'm pushing myself outside ofmy window of tolerance for folks
who don't know what that means?
Audrey Burke (12:09):
Oh yeah, yeah, a clear time in my life I remember
well.
An important part of my storyis I did have what I call a
nervous system like breakdownabout 11 years ago when I was
living in Bologna, italy, andthen I came back to the US
because I wanted to be aroundlike practitioners who spoke
English and I landed in SanFrancisco where my aunt lived,
(12:30):
and San Francisco is still notthe ideal environment for me to
be reducing the amount ofstimulation on my system.
But I was really into yoga andI'm like I'm a super yogi, like
I can handle anything, but Iwould find myself inside her
apartment where you could hearbuses and cars and I would have
(12:52):
to wear headsets all the time,listening to like music therapy.
And I still like had to get ajob.
I think at the time I wasnannying but I'd have to like go
out onto the streets and likefind my way to these jobs on my
iPhone and some of it was.
I just had to do it out ofnecessity.
But basically, our window oftolerance is the amount of
(13:12):
stimulation we can handlewithout becoming overwhelmed or
shutting down.
And I think, as highlysensitive people, our window
like because we're taking in somuch more.
Not necessarily that our windowof tolerance is smaller, but
we're taking in so much more,we're filling it.
Window of tolerance is smaller,but we're taking in so much
more.
April Snow (13:28):
We're filling it up quicker.
Audrey Burke (13:29):
We're filling it up quicker, and so we reach that
point of overwhelm faster.
But then, if you've experiencedtrauma in your life, that
window of tolerance startsshrinking, and so then you're
hitting that point of overwhelmas well.
April Snow (13:45):
Yeah, that's really helpful visual for me to think
of and I like that distinction.
It's not that we have a smallerwindow of tolerance, innately
as sensitive people, it's justwe're filling up that bucket
quicker so we reach overwhelmmore easily.
Yeah, so let's talk about theshrinking.
So okay, just as a sensitiveperson, my window of tolerance
(14:06):
is the same size, same capacityas another person.
But if I've had a sensitiveperson, my window of tolerance
is the same size, same capacityas another person.
But if I've had a traumaticexperience, then it gets smaller
.
I'm hitting overwhelm faster.
What could contribute to that?
Because we talked about thatshell shock kind of the
stereotype of trauma which Ialso held for a long time, like
oh, it's war, it's a caraccident, it's something more
extreme.
But are there other types oftrauma that could shrink our
(14:32):
window that we may not thinkabout or identify with?
Audrey Burke (14:36):
Yeah, so I've learned there's all different
kinds of trauma and I can checkoff a lot of the boxes.
There is even starting withlike ancestral trauma.
So some people will say thatwhat you're like two generations
before you experienced is alsoaffecting your nervous system.
So if your grandparents were inlike the Holocaust, like when
(14:59):
you're born, your system mightalready be more sensitive to
certain things or have lessresiliency to stress to certain
things or have less resiliencyto stress.
Also, events around your birth,even while you're in your
mother's womb those things canaffect your nervous system.
A big piece of the work I do isaround that really early
developmental trauma, likethings that happen in the first
(15:20):
three years of your life, andthat's particularly important
because that is when yournervous system and your brain
and your immune system and allof these things are forming, and
so it can.
What we often see is thatpeople who had ruptures in those
earliest years of their lifearen't getting like a solid
foundation of their nervoussystem to begin with.
April Snow (15:42):
Right, yeah, so you're not on steady ground, so
your window of tolerance mightbe immediately smaller,
potentially, and I think it's animportant reminder that we are
impacted by the nervous systemsof generations before us,
because, let's say, you'reinside of your mother's womb,
(16:02):
you're taking on her nervoussystem, but then your mother was
impacted by your grandmotherand so on, and just then, how
the interactions, there's somuch shaping that happens even
before you're born, exactly,yeah, yeah.
I want to see if you haveanything else to share before I
ask you another question aboutthis.
Audrey Burke (16:24):
Yeah, I was just kind of soaking in what you just
said of yeah, another questionabout this.
Yeah, I was just kind ofsoaking in what you just said of
, yeah, even just the stuff fromgenerations prior.
But then I was also thinkingabout as your parents are
raising you.
It's through their nervoussystems that your systems
learning how to regulate.
So we co regulate before we canself regulate.
And so if your parents neverhad experiences of really
(16:47):
attuned co regulation when theythey were children, it's likely
then that you're not going toget it.
So it passes down that way too.
April Snow (16:54):
Right, I don't think people realize, you know, just
seeing.
Sometimes folks say like, oh,let your kid cry it out or
they'll take care of themselves.
I'm like no, they need yournervous system, they need to
borrow your regulation or tolearn how to regulate through
you.
I don't think a lot of folksreally understand that.
Audrey Burke (17:11):
Yeah, yeah, no, exactly Exactly what you just
said.
Yeah, and that can cause quitea ripple effect throughout your
life.
Yeah, the image I kind of likeis if those earliest years, if
you're building like a house,it's like the foundation of the
house.
You want a strong foundationand then everything you build on
top of that.
You know all your braindevelopment, the development of
(17:33):
your personality and all of thatis going to build on top of
that.
And then also when weexperience traumas later in life
, how well you respond to thosetraumas will be based on that
kind of baseline nervous systemregulation you have.
I've heard a number of teacherssay if you experience like
(17:53):
shock trauma later in life anddon't recover that quickly from
it, it's probably because youhad those earlier ruptures where
if someone did have thatbaseline regulation, if they
experienced a trauma, they mightbe able to like do a few
somatic therapy sessions orprocess it with their family and
kind of move through it kind ofquickly.
(18:15):
But if you had those earlierruptures it's going to take you
a lot longer to heal from thoselater shock traumas.
April Snow (18:22):
It makes sense.
It sounds like it could becumulative over the lifespan,
yeah, and perhaps could indicatewhy maybe your window of
tolerance seems smaller, but youcan't think of a trauma you've
personally experienced.
It could be because you'veinherited something through the
(18:43):
lineage of your family, or therewas some type of misattunement
or dysregulation happening withyour parent relationship or
caregiver relationship.
It seems like there's so manysubtle or sneaky ways this could
impact you.
Audrey Burke (18:58):
There's also a big category of trauma around
medical trauma and so if you hadhospitalizations when you were
really young or even older and Ithink a lot of people don't
think of that category as oftenthere's also what we call social
trauma, which is, you know, forany people who's part of a
(19:20):
minority group.
Whether you're a woman,probably, if you're a sensitive
person, if of yeah, like gender,gender identity, if you're
queer, if you're poor, becauseof your race, because of your
religion, all of those littlediscriminations you experience
on a daily basis lead your bodyto feel like there's a threat
(19:41):
present.
So social trauma is alsosomething that maybe people
don't realize, because it's notone big event, it's something
really subtle that's happeningover time.
April Snow (19:50):
Right where you have to learn to be hypervigilant at
a certain level.
Yes, that really would degradeyour sense of safety over time,
yes, and really shrink yourwindow, yeah, yeah.
So, talking about the differenttypes of trauma, you mentioned
birth trauma, which I love and Iknow this is an area you work
(20:10):
in.
I'd love to talk about that alittle bit more because I don't
think folks know a lot aboutthis area, particularly because
we don't remember the events.
And I've heard you talk aboutsomething called adverse
babyhood experiences and I'veheard of ACEs adverse childhood
experiences which is linked totraumas you've experienced in
childhood.
But I'm wondering if you couldshare with the babyhood pieces,
(20:34):
yeah, if you could define thatfor us.
Audrey Burke (20:36):
Yeah, yeah, I'd be happy to.
Yeah.
So a lot of people are familiarwith that ACE study, which is
the adverse childhoodexperiences study, and you could
go online.
There's like 10 questions, butthe thing about that study is
that it's only that list of 10questions and it's not all
inclusive to all the kinds oftrauma.
I think the ACE studies foranything that happened to you
(20:56):
before you're 18.
Yeah, I believe so.
So the adverse babyhoodexperiences study was a term
coined by Veronique Mead.
She is a former family physicianand then later ended up
becoming a somatic therapist andnow she blogs on a blog called,
I think it's, chronic illnessand trauma studies.
(21:17):
She's also recovering fromchronic fatigue, but she's
looked into like over a thousanddifferent research studies on
the connection between chronicillness and trauma.
She's actually coined eightdifferent categories of trauma,
but one of them is this adversebabyhood experiences, and she's
come up with a list of 10different things that could
(21:37):
potentially disrupt the baby'snervous system during those
first three years of life.
Yeah, and you can go to her blogto read like all the details of
all the things, but it includesit actually includes any loss
or trauma experienced by themother, so that could be like
anywhere in the mother's life.
So if the mother experiencedtrauma any point in her life,
(22:01):
like that's going to affect thebaby.
It also includes things like ifthere's a lack of support for
the mother in the two yearsbefore she gets pregnant, while
she's pregnant, after birthincludes like complications
during birth for either motheror for baby.
And the thing too about theseadverse babyhood experiences is
(22:22):
like a lot of things that arenormalized in our culture now
are like not actually normal forthe nervous system.
So like now, hospital birthsare like very routine,
c-sections are very routine andthey've become normalized, but
like actually for the nervoussystem those things are not
normal.
April Snow (22:39):
No, they're very I mean, the words come into mind.
It's violent, it seems.
I haven't personally givenbirth, but just seeing friends
go through the process it's veryintense, it's very stressful on
your body, on your nervoussystem.
And so what you're saying isthere's so many instances where
this trauma could be introducedand impact the baby's nervous
(23:02):
system long before the baby evenis conceived.
And then through the birthingprocess and into the first few
years of life.
Quite a large window there.
Audrey Burke (23:12):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It's been really interesting asI was going through this
somatic experiencing training.
We did do some sessions aroundpre and perinatal trauma and I
remember one practice group Iwas in was just kind of the
memory of these bright lights,like just as you're being born,
being like blinded by thesebright lights in a hospital.
(23:34):
And some of my teachers havesaid that planned C-sections are
not great for the nervoussystem, Emergency C-sections a
little less so, because the babyactually needs some amount of
stress to help build theirnervous system.
Like there's needs some amountof stress to help build their
nervous system, Like there's acertain amount of stress that's
healthy and like the baby'sprogrammed to like want to get
through the vaginal canal andlike some of that struggle to
(23:55):
get through like helps build ahealthy nervous system.
And so C-section babies kind ofmiss out on that biological
process where an emergencyC-section baby still has to
struggle a little bit.
April Snow (24:08):
Right.
So there's more of a naturalprocess there, where you build a
little bit of resilience you'rewired for that instead of just
all of a sudden being pulled outwith no warning.
Audrey Burke (24:21):
Yep, yep.
And then there's also likebeing put in an incubator if you
have to spend time in the NICUanother one of her categories
just like any separation fromthe mother, whether right after
the birth, like ideally, youwant a baby to be able to like
come up the mother's chest andlie on her chest for a while
after birth, and that doesn'talways get to happen.
(24:42):
Another thing I might say aboutsome of these adverse babyhood
experiences and adversechildhood experiences in general
is it's not always bad thingsthat happen.
Sometimes it's like the goodthings that didn't get to happen
.
April Snow (24:54):
Oh you know, yeah, can you say more about that?
Audrey Burke (24:57):
Yeah, well because , especially when I think of
developmental trauma, somepeople are like, well, I don't
have it because, like my parentswere loving and you know we had
food to eat.
Because, like my parents wereloving and you know we had food
to eat, I lived in a safe homeand it's like okay, maybe
nothing overtly really badhappened, like physical abuse or
, you know, living in a homewhere there was violence, but
maybe you didn't get enough ofthe good stuff which your system
(25:19):
also needs to develop.
Well, Right.
April Snow (25:23):
It's like.
This is like my constant HSPconundrum Like it could have
been better, there could havebeen more right.
I'm always so grief stricken bythat when it's like it could
have been better.
Yeah, it's like I think a lot oftimes you're right that, and I
see this a lot with my therapyclients like, oh, my trauma was
fine.
It's like, well, let's look alittle closer right, Because,
(25:47):
yes, you could have had all yourphysical needs provided and
even some of your emotionalneeds, If there was a
misattunement with the parent orthey just didn't understand you
or see you or give you kind ofjust what you needed.
There's still a loss there.
Audrey Burke (26:01):
Yeah, yeah, and I think of that especially with
highly sensitive people, becauseI think most of us did not get
the emotional attunement that weneeded.
I mean, I didn't even know Iwas a highly sensitive person
until I was 34.
So I didn't even have thatmirroring of like you are highly
sensitive and this is how youwork with it.
I really don't have anymemories of going to my parents
with like emotions and havingthem help me through that
(26:24):
experience.
April Snow (26:26):
So, even though that's not like a big T trauma,
you're missing out on thatattunement, which is so
essential for development, andthen we miss those opportunities
during those developmentalstages to be our full selves, to
have that full understandingand twinship, and mirroring that
.
We really need to really feelsolid in ourselves, yeah, yeah.
Audrey Burke (26:52):
Exactly, and that's something that we see so
often in people withdevelopmental traumas, having
that like weak sense of self orsomething with their perception
of self.
April Snow (27:03):
I mean this is really putting a lot of pieces
together for me with a lot ofcommon HSP struggles.
Is that, you know, lacking thatsolid sense of confidence or
kind of just trying to live theway other people live instead of
saying, no, this is who I am,this is what I need, and feeling
really solid and certain inthat, yeah, yeah.
Audrey Burke (27:25):
I see that very often as well.
Yeah, Now one thing.
I do want to give a littledisclaimer because I don't want
people to think like if they hadone of these adverse babyhood
experiences, that they're likedoomed for life.
Yes, yeah, just because you hadone of these doesn't
necessarily mean it traumatizedyou In some ways.
It can be like a little bitrandom where in a family you
(27:46):
have one kid who is traumatizedin like a family system, and
another is completely fine.
So just because you've had oneof these experiences doesn't
necessarily mean you're going toget chronic illness, right,
right, good to clarify that,yeah, because I know myself I
was hearing this in the past Imight start to feel worried that
this means I'm gonna get sickor something.
(28:10):
And also what the kind of theseadverse childhood lists don't
list for is there could also belike positive childhood
experiences that serve asantidotes to this stuff.
So if you do have positiveexperiences in your childhood,
it helps you be more resilient.
So even if you've had some ofthese experiences, you can
overcome them.
I mean children, really whatthey need is like at least one
(28:33):
adult who like really loves themand really supports them, and
it might not be a parent, itcould be a teacher at school or
a grandparent or a friend'sparent, and so just want to give
that little disclaimer.
April Snow (28:47):
Yeah, it's not an automatic sentence, right?
So you're saying you knowthere's experiences during early
childhood or during adolescencethat can counteract those
traumatic babyhood experiences?
Yeah, what if, though, we'renow in adults and we didn't
necessarily get that inchildhood?
(29:08):
Is there anything we can do nowon our own?
Audrey Burke (29:12):
Yeah, well, so those last words I just like my
attention on your own.
That's the tricky part, becausewhen these traumas happen in a
relationship, they really arebest healed through a
relationship.
Traumas happen in arelationship, they really are
best healed through arelationship.
And I so often people askingfor, like I want to learn some
somatic experiencing, like giveme exercises, and I'm like this
isn't really something you do athome by yourself, right?
(29:35):
I mean there are some practicesthat are helpful, but when we're
healing these relational woundsand like, especially around the
attunement, if you didn't getthe attunement you needed, it's
about having reparativeexperiences, like receiving
attunement as adults to helpheal some of these wounds.
Or if you never receivedco-regulation that you needed,
(29:56):
it's about having your system beable to receive co-regulation
now as an adult.
So I think working with apractitioner is super, super
important for these early wounds.
So often people withdevelopmental trauma have been
doing it all by themselves for areally long time.
April Snow (30:16):
Yeah, I mean, when you've been through these
experiences, it seems safer tobe alone because you've been
hurt in relationship, yeah, yeah.
But I agree with you, and I'veexperienced this myself, that
healing does only happen inrelationships, because that's
where it started, and I've seenthis with clients too.
When we move from that solowork to that relational work,
(30:40):
things start moving a lot faster.
And you know, even doing bodywork and somatic work, it's so
much more powerful, impactful.
So how do we bridge that gap?
You're saying you can work witha practitioner.
I wonder if you could say alittle bit more about that, what
that looks like.
Audrey Burke (31:00):
Yeah Well, I'm a big fan of somatic therapy.
Obviously, I'm trained insomatic experiencing.
There's also other kinds oftrauma therapy, like sensory
motor psychotherapy, but I dothink when you're working with
trauma, having some somaticapproach, something that
includes the body, is superhelpful, especially for those
developmental traumas thathappen before the age of three,
(31:20):
like you're not going to haveconscious memories of those
events.
They're stored in your limbicsystem, which speaks the
language of sensation, so thosememories are stored in our body
speaks the language of sensation, so those memories are stored
in our body.
I do think touch is a reallyhelpful intervention for
developmental trauma because,again, often touch was the
missing piece of like, nothaving enough touch, not having
(31:43):
enough co-regulation throughtouch.
So you might look for apractitioner who uses touch in
their practice.
I'm a licensed massage therapist, so I touch people.
There are some counselors whoalso use touch, but it really
depends on what state they livein.
Like some state boards arestricter around touch than
others.
So I've studied with StevenTerrell.
(32:04):
He also co-teaches with someonenamed Kathy Kane.
They have a website calledco-regulating touchcom where you
can look up all thepractitioners who've trained
with them.
So that's a great resource.
But of course, some peopledon't feel comfortable with
touch.
Maybe they have boundaryviolations, and so you can do
this work without touch as well.
April Snow (32:24):
So you can really meet yourself where you're at.
Yeah, depending on what youreally need.
Audrey Burke (32:29):
And some people might need to do some work
around boundaries before they'recomfortable receiving touch.
So they know, if I get on amassage table and there's
something I don't like, I canspeak up about it.
April Snow (32:41):
That does bring me to the question of when we're
pursuing a practitioner thatdoes touch.
So let's say we're working witha massage therapist, because my
massage therapist is trained insomatic experiencing, so I know
she's working through that lens.
But can I also find value inkind of a more traditional
massage therapist who's maybenot looking through the somatic
(33:04):
healing lens?
Does it work either way at somelevel?
Audrey Burke (33:09):
I think there's definitely differences.
I do think there's a lot ofbenefit to getting massage, but
it's a little bit different whenit's a somatic, experiencing
practitioner who's doing touchwork.
There's going to be a differentlevel of attunement and they're
also like when I do thetransforming touch work I do,
I'm really connecting with, likethe infant parts and I'm like
(33:33):
really attuning to the body morethan a massage therapist would
when they're just, you know,doing manipulations to your
muscles.
April Snow (33:42):
Right, yeah, I just wanted to ask that question.
I can imagine if someone's juststarting they might be like oh,
I can go get a massage startingthey might be like, oh, I can
go get a massage, but there'slevels.
Audrey Burke (33:57):
Yeah, I still think a massage is helpful for
nervous system regulation but Idon't know if it will quite heal
those like relational wounds,unless it's an amazing massage
therapist, right, but generallyalso, you know massage
therapists it's a little bittricky the scope of practice.
You know they're not.
It's a little bit tricky, thescope of practice.
You know they're not reallyallowed to hold space for too
much emotional experience, likethey can let you have your
(34:19):
emotion but they can't processit with you.
April Snow (34:22):
Right, right.
So then you're again holding iton your own.
Yeah, I mean, to me that couldfeel almost re-traumatizing,
like here I am repeating thiscycle and I'm on my own again.
Potentially so helpful to havespace where you can let those
emotions come out however theyneed to.
(34:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm wondering.
You know you've talked aboutyour love of somatic work and
we're seeing the healing effectsof it and just the
transformative nature of somaticwork, but I'm wondering what
led you personally to doing thistype of work?
You've hinted at it already.
I'm wondering we could spend alittle more time there to see
(35:06):
how it's connected for you.
Audrey Burke (35:09):
Yeah, I'm happy to talk about my story.
So, as I mentioned, I had anervous breakdown about 11 years
ago.
I was living in Italy at thetime and I'm not quite sure what
like the last trigger was.
I did get a bad cold.
I had a really bad cough forthree weeks and then it was like
after that, all these somaticsymptoms started, and Veronica
(35:29):
Mead actually talks about that.
Often, like before chronicillness starts, there's like one
trigger and maybe you've had alot of stuff leading up to it,
but it's like one virus orsomething that like kicks you
over into the more chronicillness.
So at that time I startedhaving more somatic symptoms
that were really affecting myeveryday life, like irritable
(35:50):
bowel syndrome.
I didn't get my period for likefour years.
I lost like 30 pounds and waslike having a hard time putting
it back on.
There was a period where it waslike hard to go outside in
Bologna, italy, just likeoverwhelmed by the smells
outside and the exhaust andeverything.
So that was what really kind ofsent me on my healing path and
(36:14):
I didn't find somaticexperiencing for like five years
.
I tried like doctors andacupuncture and yoga and
meditation retreats and allthese things.
And then I finally landed in theoffice of a somatic
experiencing practitioner andshe did do touch in her practice
and it was after that firstsession that I just felt this
huge like sigh of relief.
I was like, oh yeah, this islike what I thought therapy
(36:37):
would be and like this is whatmy body needs yeah, it often is
that search right, trying to putthe pieces together on your own
, like it's overwhelming.
April Snow (36:47):
Honestly, there's so many different types of healing
work out there, somatic andnon-somatic, like what's going
to stick, what's going to work,and five years is a long time to
be searching.
Audrey Burke (37:02):
Yeah, and that was like one of the most
overwhelming parts too, was likefeeling like I was holding that
whole process by myself, liketrying different diets and
trying different supplements anddifferent doctors, and not
feeling like I had someone likeholding that with me Right.
Yeah, it can feel really kindof scary and overwhelming.
April Snow (37:23):
You're saying something important, which is
often our body will tell us whatwe need by sending out those
symptoms, and we may not alwaysknow what it's telling us, but
it's telling us something.
So, you might have a mysterioussymptom, physical symptom or
health issue.
So in your process you weregoing in, blind, looking,
(37:44):
searching, and I remember doingthe same thing 15, 20 years ago.
I'm going to the naturopath,I'm going to the acupuncturist,
I'm going to the therapist, I'mdoing, you know, body work, I'm
getting acupressure, I'm gettingcolonics, so many things I've
tried and then finally settledon okay, I'm doing functional
medicine, I'm doing somatic work.
This is what I, this is whatworks.
(38:04):
But if you're, let's say, forthe listener who's just starting
their own process, they'rehaving maybe some mysterious
symptoms or some emotionaldysregulation.
Knowing what you know now, howcan we start the healing process
?
Audrey Burke (38:21):
knowing what I know now.
Well, I think like one of themost helpful things for me was
just like asking a lot ofquestions, like when I would go
to practitioners to like evenasking them like who do you
recommend, rather than having toget on the computer and search
for practitioners, but likeasking people that you already
(38:41):
trust.
Maybe it's an acupuncturist orsomething like who do you
recommend for therapy?
Or do you know a doctor?
Because they often like will benetworks, so that's definitely
helped.
I think also just like trustingyour gut, which I know is
sometimes hard if you have notyet done somatic work, like
that's like kind of this catch22.
Yeah, because I've had negativeexperiences with therapists
(39:02):
before and it was like I didn'tyet have the ability to be like
oh, this doesn't feel good,maybe I should find a new
therapist.
But the best of your ability,like trust your gut and at least
maybe try multiple people andthat way you can compare them.
Because I just went to onetherapist and worked with her
for two years and it probablywasn't the best fit and in
hindsight I wish I had likeshopped around a little bit.
(39:24):
I didn't even know that wassomething people did.
I just thought if I found onetherapist, like all therapists
were good, but they're not allgood.
And they're not all.
They don't all understand highsensitivity.
April Snow (39:36):
Exactly, yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying
is really important because,having done a lot of consults
with people, I always encouragethem take a moment.
What we've talked about, checkin with your gut, talk to some
other people, because peopledon't know that they can shop
around.
No one tells you that and noone realizes that there are bad
(39:57):
therapists out there.
There are bad practitioners whoI don't think intentionally,
but they may just not be a goodfit, right?
Or, as you're saying, they maynot understand high sensitivity
and that could really turn youdown the wrong path.
Because, then you're focusing onthe wrong piece of information
or you're not implementing acritical piece of the puzzle.
Audrey Burke (40:21):
Exactly.
April Snow (40:22):
Yeah, let's say you're sensitive and you do have
trauma.
We need to hold both of thoseat once, not only focus on the
trauma.
Audrey Burke (40:28):
Yeah, yeah, and that brings up another good
point.
If you do feel like you have ahistory of trauma, like you'll
want to interview the person,well, because there might be
people who say they're liketrauma informed, but it's like
no, which training did you doand are you certified and how
many years of experience do youhave?
And like you can even ask themdo you have personal experience
with trauma?
April Snow (40:53):
Like maybe they won't go into the whole story,
but at least that way you know,like maybe they've done their
own work in this field.
Yes, those are great questionsand I just to give people
permission it's okay to askthose questions.
This person is going to beholding your mental or physical
health in their hands.
Ask the questions, even if ithas to be through an email, if
you're not comfortable doing itverbally.
It's okay to see if they canactually support you, if they
(41:14):
understand you.
Audrey Burke (41:17):
Yeah, and this is where the internet comes in
handy.
Or even like chat GBT.
You can ask chat GBT like I'mabout to have a call with a new
therapist, like what questionsshould I ask?
April Snow (41:26):
Yes, exactly, it's a great support to get you to
find the right fit for whatyou're looking for, what you're
needing.
Yeah, I love that.
Well, anything else here beforewe start to wrap up our
conversation?
Audrey Burke (41:41):
Audrey.
Well, one thing I feel like Ididn't really touch on that I
would like to talk about is justkind of where the root of these
syndromes are from, which areoften rooted in those early
childhood experiences is withour nervous system.
The like gas and brake systemstop working properly.
(42:03):
And what I mean by that is likethe gas is the sympathetic part
of your nervous system.
It's like what mobilizes you tolike get up in the morning, or
like run or fight if you need to, and then the break is your
parasympathetic or helping youto settle back down.
And what happens with thesesyndromes is like the gas and
brakes start not functioningoptimally, so you either get
(42:24):
stuck on on or you get stuck onoff.
There can also be situationswhere the gas and brake are on
at the same time, which willlook like people who are just
fluctuating between those twoextremes of being like in panic
and then shut down.
And this is where the somaticwork comes in, really helpful to
help get our system regulatedagain and to help get the gas
(42:46):
and the brake working again.
April Snow (42:48):
That's such a good piece to know like, oh, you
could be stuck in these systemsand it doesn't have to be that
way.
Right, there can be healingwork that pulls you out of that
you can find more equanimity.
Yeah, so love that.
Audrey Burke (43:04):
And I do think it's still important to like see
some medical doctors to ruleout anything that actually might
be medical, like maybe you'reexperiencing fatigue, it's like
well, it could be low vitamin D,it could be anemia, it could be
it could be.
So I think it's a good idea tolike get checked out medically
to make sure there's nothingmajorly obvious going on.
(43:24):
But I do think trying outsomatic work specifically
focused on like regulation,regulation, regulation Well,
even if you have a medical issue, being more regulated will
probably help you deal with that.
And then, if it isn't a medicalissue, if it's more of this
syndrome that doesn't have likea medical root cause but it's
(43:44):
more from nervous systemsdysregulation, the regulation,
somatic work might really helpwith those symptoms.
April Snow (43:52):
Because I always think about how our body only
has so many ways to expressitself.
So it could be a nutrientdeficiency, it could be a
nervous system dysregulationissue.
But it's good to check that out, to really sift through and see
what is the problem here or theroot cause, and what do I need
to support myself.
(44:12):
And oftentimes it's amulti-prong approach, but good
to know, because anxiety itcould be you know I need more
magnesium or it could be oh, Iam burnt out.
Audrey Burke (44:24):
Yeah, there's a lot of different ways to get
there yeah, and I do thinkhaving that what you say
multi-pronged approach ishelpful, because I see people
sometimes like in one camp wherethey're like just going the
medical route and they reallywant like a specific diagnosis,
and other people who are just inthe somatic route and they're
like so focused on, like youknow, healing something
(44:46):
energetically and it's like,well, maybe it's a medical issue
.
So I think having thatmultidiscipline approach is
really helpful.
April Snow (44:55):
All right.
It's a holistic, full body,full system approach.
Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah.
Thank you for that.
So much good information todayand you shared a lot of great
resources.
I'll make sure I share those inthe show notes for folks, along
with your website, your socialmedia.
You also have a free somatichealing guide for folks.
I'll share that as well, and Ijust want to thank you so much
(45:16):
for being here today, audrey.
This is one of my favoritetopics to talk about and I feel
like you added a lot of nuanceto it, so I appreciate that.
Audrey Burke (45:24):
Yeah Well, I love talking about this topic and it
was a pleasure to talk toanother highly sensitive person
about it Same.
April Snow (45:31):
I know it adds some nuance to the conversation,
which I really appreciate.
And before we go, though, Iknow that you offer one-to-one
work online for folks who maybeare ready to start working with
a practitioner.
Can you tell folks a little bitmore about what that might look
like if they were to work withyou online?
Audrey Burke (45:47):
Yeah, and I do see people in person as well.
I'm in Durham, durham, northCarolina.
But for the online work it canlook a few different ways.
It really depends on the personand what their goals are.
Sometimes we're doing moredialogue based work, where I
might be asking them to try somedifferent exercises so we can
(46:08):
see how the body responds, whichmight be like bringing our
awareness outward, lookingaround the room.
Sometimes it was bringing ourawareness inwards.
What are we noticing in the body?
We're tracking things likesensation and image and impulses
the body wants to have.
But then I can also do thistransforming touch work online,
which is a lot quieter.
(46:28):
That work is specificallytargeted towards developmental
trauma, so it makes sense thatthere wouldn't be as many words,
because just like you'reworking with a baby, wouldn't be
?
Maybe you're singing to them,but a baby is like pre cognitive
, pre verbal.
So with that I might beinviting the person to either
imagine that I have touched onthem or we might be bringing our
(46:49):
awareness to different parts ofthe body.
And I also do the transformingtouch work online, which is more
targeted towards developmentaltrauma.
So that work is a lot quieterand you know, I'm just bringing
my awareness and my intention tovarious points on the person's
body, but the main goal of justhelping them to co-regulate.
April Snow (47:09):
Beautiful, and that sounds like that could be a safe
way to enter into that work,where you're then in charge of
the touch for yourself.
Audrey Burke (47:17):
I love that.
Yeah yeah, it depends on theperson, you know what feels
safest to their system.
True, For some people it does.
Yeah yeah absolutely Well.
April Snow (47:26):
Lots of great resources.
Thank you so much, Audrey.
I really appreciate it.
All right, Great to meet you,April.
Thanks for having me.
Yes, it was fun to meet you aswell.
Thanks for joining me andAudrey for today's conversation.
What I hope you remember isthat, no matter what you've been
(47:51):
through, you can still feelwhole again by surrounding
yourself with the people youfeel safe with and being sure to
soak up whatever positiveexperiences are happening around
you.
Find Audrey's free somatichealing guide on her website,
restorativepresencecom, as wellas more information on working
with her one-to-one, whetherit's online or in person, in
North Carolina.
Links are in the show notes.
(48:17):
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSB resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, TikTokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
(48:38):
Thanks for listening.
When these traumas happen in a relationship.
They really are best healedthrough a relationship, when
we're healing relational wounds,especially if you didn't get
the attunement you needed.
It's about having reparativeexperiences Now.
As an adult, working with apractitioner is super, super
important for these early wounds.
So often people withdevelopmental trauma have been
(00:24):
doing it all by themselves for areally long time.
April Snow (00:35):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
(00:57):
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk withAudrey Berg about the connection
between early life trauma,emotional dysregulation and high
sensitivity, as well as how tostart the healing process at any
age.
Audrey is a somaticexperiencing practitioner,
massage therapist andtransforming touch practitioner
(01:17):
based in Durham, north Carolina.
As a highly sensitive personherself, she discovered somatic
work through her own healingjourney and found that somatic
support was a missing piece inher path to mysterious health
symptoms and feeling at home inher body.
Now she helps other HSPs healfrom shock, trauma,
developmental trauma, chronicstress and nervous system
(01:39):
dysregulation, supporting themin feeling safer in themselves
and the world For more HSPresources and to see behind the
scenes video from the podcast,join me on Instagram, tiktok or
YouTube at Sensitive Strengthsor sign up for my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
(02:03):
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
Hi Audrey, welcome to thepodcast.
(02:33):
I'm so excited to have you heretoday.
Audrey Burke (02:35):
Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.
April Snow (02:36):
Thanks for having me , yeah of course, it's so lovely
to connect in person, real time.
I do want to start off byasking you about your HSP
discovery story.
If you remember how or when yourealized that you're highly
sensitive.
Audrey Burke (02:49):
Yeah, I love reflecting on this story and
like continuing to reflect on it.
So I didn't realize I was anHSP until I was about 34 years
old and it was during a timewhere I was feeling really
overwhelmed.
I had roommates and I wouldlook at my roommates and be like
(03:10):
why do they all seem okay andI'm like overwhelmed all the
time.
You know, my roommates werereally comfortable with like
having people sleep over andlike having events at the house
and I like that to some degree.
But I was like reaching mythresholds, yes, and it was even
there was some traffic noise bywhere we live and it was like
really bothering me and they allseemed fine and I was like why,
(03:33):
how am I different?
Like what's going on here?
And then there were a coupleevents.
Right after that one, I had adoctor's appointment with an
integrative doctor and when Iwent in he was asking me about
stress in my life and I was likewell, you know, I'm living with
roommates.
I just feel overwhelmed all thetime and I don't even know why
this word came out of my mouth.
But I just said I'm starting torealize I'm a really sensitive
(03:56):
person.
And he looked at me and waslike well, I could have told you
that.
Okay, so you know, we had aconversation about it and it
just really blew my mind that,you know, here I am 34 years old
and no one had ever pointedthat out to me before.
And then, shortly after that, Iwas looking for a new roommate
(04:18):
or just like a new livingsituation, and I met one woman
who was really lovely, like,lived in a quiet town like 30
minutes outside of the citywhere I lived in, and she fed me
this like nourishing dinner andhad like a cute cat, I mean the
whole environment was likeperfect.
And I was explaining to her whyI was looking for a new place to
(04:40):
live and she was like, oh, youmight be a highly sensitive
person, like I am one too.
And then she gave me the book.
I was like here you go, justkeep it.
April Snow (04:51):
Isn't that the way it happens?
Someone you meet by chance andthey change your whole life.
Here's the book.
Yeah, isn't it amazing?
And you know you're saying howno one ever told me I was
sensitive.
And and we don't realize,because this is the only
experience we know, this is theonly body we've lived in.
Then you start looking outsideof yourself and realizing oh,
(05:14):
something's different about me.
Why am I not reacting the sameway around life that my
roommates do?
Audrey Burke (05:22):
Yeah, and I think the confusing thing was like
some highly sensitive peoplewhen they're younger here often
like, oh, you're too sensitive,but I never heard that.
So like the word sensitive wasnowhere in my consciousness,
like I actually thought I waspretty tough, like, oh, I'm
tough, I can handle all thisstuff.
So I wasn't someone who wastold I was sensitive from a
young age.
April Snow (05:44):
It's funny because when I reflect back as well I
don't remember hearing that butI think a lot of times you just
you show up the way you need to,Yep Right.
And now, as you're saying, I'mwondering like, oh, maybe we
feel like we have to be so toughbecause things are impacting us
more and other people don'thave to be so tough to get
through the same experiences.
(06:06):
Yeah, it's amazing howsometimes we don't know until
much later.
I've met folks who didn'tdiscover it until their fifties
or sixties, or seventies even,and it's like, wow, I had no
idea.
Audrey Burke (06:19):
Yeah, this was a thing, it's just really
incredible, yeah, and justhearing that term really like
changed my sense of self, cause,like I always knew I was kind
of different, but having thewords to put to it, and now also
I felt like I had permission tonot keep up with everyone else,
or like permission to stay in,or permission to not have
roommates or like whatever thething I was like oh these needs
(06:42):
are totally valid, you know.
April Snow (06:43):
Exactly right.
Having that framework reallyhelps a lot.
Puts things in perspective likeoh okay, I'm different and now
I need to take care of thatdifference.
It's not a negative, it's justI need something a little
different.
That's okay.
Yeah, I love that.
So you mentioned, you know, notgrowing up hearing you were
sensitive or maybe evenconsidering that for yourself
(07:04):
but I'm wondering were thereearly influences that shaped
your sensitivity or your nervoussystem?
Audrey Burke (07:11):
Oh yeah, so I am a somatic experiencing
practitioner, so I very muchwork in the realm of trauma and
the interesting thing is there'ssome symptoms of PTSD, or
nervous system dysregulation,that look very similar to some
of the traits of being a highlysensitive person.
So for a bit there was thatquestion of like am I really a
(07:32):
highly sensitive person?
Or like, am I just dysregulatedor am I just traumatized?
And kind of what I've come torealize is like I do feel in my
bones I'm a highly sensitiveperson, like this is the way I
was born.
When I meet other highlysensitive people like you or
some of the kind of spokespeoplefor HSPs, like Elaine Aron or
(07:52):
Judith Orloff, I'm just like Ifeel like we are, we belong
together, there's a kinship.
There's a kinship.
But then on top of that I dohave various kinds of trauma
that I think have added to.
I don't even like using theword sensitivity now, because
I've reclaimed the wordsensitivity but has made me like
(08:14):
, maybe narrowed my window oftolerance or led me to come
overwhelmed more quickly.
I also was never someone whoconsidered myself as having
trauma, even though, like Iclearly had some traumatic
events.
I didn't really present the wayI thought someone with trauma
would present.
So I just assumed like, oh, I'mtough, I'm resilient, like
(08:36):
those things didn't affect me.
But as I've gotten into theworld of somatic experiencing,
I've learned about all thedifferent kinds of trauma and
also how they don't alwayspresent the way you think it
might look.
April Snow (08:49):
Yeah, it's true, you know a lot of times as
sensitive people we areexperiencing maybe little T
traumas at a big level, or evenbig T traumas on a different
scale, so our experiences don'talways match up what we expect.
I'm wondering if you're open tosharing what you thought
(09:10):
someone who's been throughtrauma should look like, just
for context.
Audrey Burke (09:14):
Yeah Well, I definitely thought of like war
veterans, like someone who hadlike shell shock, but I think I
had an image of someone whowasn't very high functioning,
like someone who had a hard timeleaving the house or a hard
time like holding down a job,and I was actually like over
functioning.
I was like an overachiever, butin my day to day life I was
(09:35):
very high functioning.
The funny thing is, lookingback, there actually were
periods where it wasoverwhelming to go outside, but
somehow I just still didn'tidentify with the word like
traumatized.
Like when I was in the yogaworld and there'd be trauma,
sensitive yoga.
I was like, oh, that's not forme, that's for other people.
April Snow (09:56):
Right when we don't fit into the box, and I think a
lot of HSPs relate to this.
Like we, sometimes we don'tfeel like we fit into the HSP
box, but we also might not fitinto the traumatic experiences
box.
And I want to get more intoyour specific specialty.
But before we do that, I'm justthinking about what the impact
of that is, of not being able torealize what you've been
(10:19):
through.
You know, to say, oh, I havehad these experiences, it has
impacted me, just not in the waythat I expected, because I'm
also an over-functioner.
So that's the direction I wentto and I was like, oh, I'm
Brazilian, I'm so tough and I'm,you know, I'm not so sensitive.
But then realizing, yes, thatis true, and kind of start to
(10:40):
unpack the impacts of thoseearly experiences, but, yeah, is
it important to be able torecognize, oh, this is trauma,
this is what I was experiencing.
Audrey Burke (10:51):
Yeah, in some ways I don't love the word trauma in
general because I think it'slike such a big word Some people
over-identify with it.
Some people under-identify withit, but really what it is is
just like nervous systemimprints.
Yes, great, under identify withit, but really what it is is
just like nervous systemimprints and, yes, great.
You know, I think re rewordingit helps people relate to it
maybe a little bit more, but Ido think it's important.
(11:13):
I think a lot of peopledownplay what they've been
through because they're like oh,other people have it worse.
Yes, but your nervous systemisn't so much focused on what
other people have been through.
It's on, like, what your body'sexperienced.
And even if other people havemaybe had it worse, like your
body, processing what it's beenthrough is still really
(11:35):
important.
And another thing that Iprobably did in my own journey
was there's probably times whereI was overriding my capacity,
like putting myself insituations that were maybe
really outside my window oftolerance, but I'm just like
telling myself I can handle it,when maybe I could have backed
off and that would have beenbetter for me.
April Snow (11:56):
I feel like that's a common experience for us as
sensitive people needing to pushbeyond our limits.
Are you open to sharing anexample of what you mean by?
I'm pushing myself outside ofmy window of tolerance for folks
who don't know what that means?
Audrey Burke (12:09):
Oh yeah, yeah, a clear time in my life I remember
well.
An important part of my storyis I did have what I call a
nervous system like breakdownabout 11 years ago when I was
living in Bologna, italy, andthen I came back to the US
because I wanted to be aroundlike practitioners who spoke
English and I landed in SanFrancisco where my aunt lived,
(12:30):
and San Francisco is still notthe ideal environment for me to
be reducing the amount ofstimulation on my system.
But I was really into yoga andI'm like I'm a super yogi, like
I can handle anything, but Iwould find myself inside her
apartment where you could hearbuses and cars and I would have
(12:52):
to wear headsets all the time,listening to like music therapy.
And I still like had to get ajob.
I think at the time I wasnannying but I'd have to like go
out onto the streets and likefind my way to these jobs on my
iPhone and some of it was.
I just had to do it out ofnecessity.
But basically, our window oftolerance is the amount of
(13:12):
stimulation we can handlewithout becoming overwhelmed or
shutting down.
And I think, as highlysensitive people, our window
like because we're taking in somuch more.
Not necessarily that our windowof tolerance is smaller, but
we're taking in so much more,we're filling it.
Window of tolerance is smaller,but we're taking in so much
more.
April Snow (13:28):
We're filling it up quicker.
Audrey Burke (13:29):
We're filling it up quicker, and so we reach that
point of overwhelm faster.
But then, if you've experiencedtrauma in your life, that
window of tolerance startsshrinking, and so then you're
hitting that point of overwhelmas well.
April Snow (13:45):
Yeah, that's really helpful visual for me to think
of and I like that distinction.
It's not that we have a smallerwindow of tolerance, innately
as sensitive people, it's justwe're filling up that bucket
quicker so we reach overwhelmmore easily.
Yeah, so let's talk about theshrinking.
So okay, just as a sensitiveperson, my window of tolerance
(14:06):
is the same size, same capacityas another person.
But if I've had a sensitiveperson, my window of tolerance
is the same size, same capacityas another person.
But if I've had a traumaticexperience, then it gets smaller
.
I'm hitting overwhelm faster.
What could contribute to that?
Because we talked about thatshell shock kind of the
stereotype of trauma which Ialso held for a long time, like
oh, it's war, it's a caraccident, it's something more
extreme.
But are there other types oftrauma that could shrink our
(14:32):
window that we may not thinkabout or identify with?
Audrey Burke (14:36):
Yeah, so I've learned there's all different
kinds of trauma and I can checkoff a lot of the boxes.
There is even starting withlike ancestral trauma.
So some people will say thatwhat you're like two generations
before you experienced is alsoaffecting your nervous system.
So if your grandparents were inlike the Holocaust, like when
(14:59):
you're born, your system mightalready be more sensitive to
certain things or have lessresiliency to stress to certain
things or have less resiliencyto stress.
Also, events around your birth,even while you're in your
mother's womb those things canaffect your nervous system.
A big piece of the work I do isaround that really early
developmental trauma, likethings that happen in the first
(15:20):
three years of your life, andthat's particularly important
because that is when yournervous system and your brain
and your immune system and allof these things are forming, and
so it can.
What we often see is thatpeople who had ruptures in those
earliest years of their lifearen't getting like a solid
foundation of their nervoussystem to begin with.
April Snow (15:42):
Right, yeah, so you're not on steady ground, so
your window of tolerance mightbe immediately smaller,
potentially, and I think it's animportant reminder that we are
impacted by the nervous systemsof generations before us,
because, let's say, you'reinside of your mother's womb,
(16:02):
you're taking on her nervoussystem, but then your mother was
impacted by your grandmotherand so on, and just then, how
the interactions, there's somuch shaping that happens even
before you're born, exactly,yeah, yeah.
I want to see if you haveanything else to share before I
ask you another question aboutthis.
Audrey Burke (16:24):
Yeah, I was just kind of soaking in what you just
said of yeah, another questionabout this.
Yeah, I was just kind ofsoaking in what you just said of
, yeah, even just the stuff fromgenerations prior.
But then I was also thinkingabout as your parents are
raising you.
It's through their nervoussystems that your systems
learning how to regulate.
So we co regulate before we canself regulate.
And so if your parents neverhad experiences of really
(16:47):
attuned co regulation when theythey were children, it's likely
then that you're not going toget it.
So it passes down that way too.
April Snow (16:54):
Right, I don't think people realize, you know, just
seeing.
Sometimes folks say like, oh,let your kid cry it out or
they'll take care of themselves.
I'm like no, they need yournervous system, they need to
borrow your regulation or tolearn how to regulate through
you.
I don't think a lot of folksreally understand that.
Audrey Burke (17:11):
Yeah, yeah, no, exactly Exactly what you just
said.
Yeah, and that can cause quitea ripple effect throughout your
life.
Yeah, the image I kind of likeis if those earliest years, if
you're building like a house,it's like the foundation of the
house.
You want a strong foundationand then everything you build on
top of that.
You know all your braindevelopment, the development of
(17:33):
your personality and all of thatis going to build on top of
that.
And then also when weexperience traumas later in life
, how well you respond to thosetraumas will be based on that
kind of baseline nervous systemregulation you have.
I've heard a number of teacherssay if you experience like
(17:53):
shock trauma later in life anddon't recover that quickly from
it, it's probably because youhad those earlier ruptures where
if someone did have thatbaseline regulation, if they
experienced a trauma, they mightbe able to like do a few
somatic therapy sessions orprocess it with their family and
kind of move through it kind ofquickly.
(18:15):
But if you had those earlierruptures it's going to take you
a lot longer to heal from thoselater shock traumas.
April Snow (18:22):
It makes sense.
It sounds like it could becumulative over the lifespan,
yeah, and perhaps could indicatewhy maybe your window of
tolerance seems smaller, but youcan't think of a trauma you've
personally experienced.
It could be because you'veinherited something through the
(18:43):
lineage of your family, or therewas some type of misattunement
or dysregulation happening withyour parent relationship or
caregiver relationship.
It seems like there's so manysubtle or sneaky ways this could
impact you.
Audrey Burke (18:58):
There's also a big category of trauma around
medical trauma and so if you hadhospitalizations when you were
really young or even older and Ithink a lot of people don't
think of that category as oftenthere's also what we call social
trauma, which is, you know, forany people who's part of a
(19:20):
minority group.
Whether you're a woman,probably, if you're a sensitive
person, if of yeah, like gender,gender identity, if you're
queer, if you're poor, becauseof your race, because of your
religion, all of those littlediscriminations you experience
on a daily basis lead your bodyto feel like there's a threat
(19:41):
present.
So social trauma is alsosomething that maybe people
don't realize, because it's notone big event, it's something
really subtle that's happeningover time.
April Snow (19:50):
Right where you have to learn to be hypervigilant at
a certain level.
Yes, that really would degradeyour sense of safety over time,
yes, and really shrink yourwindow, yeah, yeah.
So, talking about the differenttypes of trauma, you mentioned
birth trauma, which I love and Iknow this is an area you work
(20:10):
in.
I'd love to talk about that alittle bit more because I don't
think folks know a lot aboutthis area, particularly because
we don't remember the events.
And I've heard you talk aboutsomething called adverse
babyhood experiences and I'veheard of ACEs adverse childhood
experiences which is linked totraumas you've experienced in
childhood.
But I'm wondering if you couldshare with the babyhood pieces,
(20:34):
yeah, if you could define thatfor us.
Audrey Burke (20:36):
Yeah, yeah, I'd be happy to.
Yeah.
So a lot of people are familiarwith that ACE study, which is
the adverse childhoodexperiences study, and you could
go online.
There's like 10 questions, butthe thing about that study is
that it's only that list of 10questions and it's not all
inclusive to all the kinds oftrauma.
I think the ACE studies foranything that happened to you
(20:56):
before you're 18.
Yeah, I believe so.
So the adverse babyhoodexperiences study was a term
coined by Veronique Mead.
She is a former family physicianand then later ended up
becoming a somatic therapist andnow she blogs on a blog called,
I think it's, chronic illnessand trauma studies.
(21:17):
She's also recovering fromchronic fatigue, but she's
looked into like over a thousanddifferent research studies on
the connection between chronicillness and trauma.
She's actually coined eightdifferent categories of trauma,
but one of them is this adversebabyhood experiences, and she's
come up with a list of 10different things that could
(21:37):
potentially disrupt the baby'snervous system during those
first three years of life.
Yeah, and you can go to her blogto read like all the details of
all the things, but it includesit actually includes any loss
or trauma experienced by themother, so that could be like
anywhere in the mother's life.
So if the mother experiencedtrauma any point in her life,
(22:01):
like that's going to affect thebaby.
It also includes things like ifthere's a lack of support for
the mother in the two yearsbefore she gets pregnant, while
she's pregnant, after birthincludes like complications
during birth for either motheror for baby.
And the thing too about theseadverse babyhood experiences is
(22:22):
like a lot of things that arenormalized in our culture now
are like not actually normal forthe nervous system.
So like now, hospital birthsare like very routine,
c-sections are very routine andthey've become normalized, but
like actually for the nervoussystem those things are not
normal.
April Snow (22:39):
No, they're very I mean, the words come into mind.
It's violent, it seems.
I haven't personally givenbirth, but just seeing friends
go through the process it's veryintense, it's very stressful on
your body, on your nervoussystem.
And so what you're saying isthere's so many instances where
this trauma could be introducedand impact the baby's nervous
(23:02):
system long before the baby evenis conceived.
And then through the birthingprocess and into the first few
years of life.
Quite a large window there.
Audrey Burke (23:12):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It's been really interesting asI was going through this
somatic experiencing training.
We did do some sessions aroundpre and perinatal trauma and I
remember one practice group Iwas in was just kind of the
memory of these bright lights,like just as you're being born,
being like blinded by thesebright lights in a hospital.
(23:34):
And some of my teachers havesaid that planned C-sections are
not great for the nervoussystem, Emergency C-sections a
little less so, because the babyactually needs some amount of
stress to help build theirnervous system.
Like there's needs some amountof stress to help build their
nervous system, Like there's acertain amount of stress that's
healthy and like the baby'sprogrammed to like want to get
through the vaginal canal andlike some of that struggle to
(23:55):
get through like helps build ahealthy nervous system.
And so C-section babies kind ofmiss out on that biological
process where an emergencyC-section baby still has to
struggle a little bit.
April Snow (24:08):
Right.
So there's more of a naturalprocess there, where you build a
little bit of resilience you'rewired for that instead of just
all of a sudden being pulled outwith no warning.
Audrey Burke (24:21):
Yep, yep.
And then there's also likebeing put in an incubator if you
have to spend time in the NICUanother one of her categories
just like any separation fromthe mother, whether right after
the birth, like ideally, youwant a baby to be able to like
come up the mother's chest andlie on her chest for a while
after birth, and that doesn'talways get to happen.
(24:42):
Another thing I might say aboutsome of these adverse babyhood
experiences and adversechildhood experiences in general
is it's not always bad thingsthat happen.
Sometimes it's like the goodthings that didn't get to happen
.
April Snow (24:54):
Oh you know, yeah, can you say more about that?
Audrey Burke (24:57):
Yeah, well because , especially when I think of
developmental trauma, somepeople are like, well, I don't
have it because, like my parentswere loving and you know we had
food to eat.
Because, like my parents wereloving and you know we had food
to eat, I lived in a safe homeand it's like okay, maybe
nothing overtly really badhappened, like physical abuse or
, you know, living in a homewhere there was violence, but
maybe you didn't get enough ofthe good stuff which your system
(25:19):
also needs to develop.
Well, Right.
April Snow (25:23):
It's like.
This is like my constant HSPconundrum Like it could have
been better, there could havebeen more right.
I'm always so grief stricken bythat when it's like it could
have been better.
Yeah, it's like I think a lot oftimes you're right that, and I
see this a lot with my therapyclients like, oh, my trauma was
fine.
It's like, well, let's look alittle closer right, Because,
(25:47):
yes, you could have had all yourphysical needs provided and
even some of your emotionalneeds, If there was a
misattunement with the parent orthey just didn't understand you
or see you or give you kind ofjust what you needed.
There's still a loss there.
Audrey Burke (26:01):
Yeah, yeah, and I think of that especially with
highly sensitive people, becauseI think most of us did not get
the emotional attunement that weneeded.
I mean, I didn't even know Iwas a highly sensitive person
until I was 34.
So I didn't even have thatmirroring of like you are highly
sensitive and this is how youwork with it.
I really don't have anymemories of going to my parents
with like emotions and havingthem help me through that
(26:24):
experience.
April Snow (26:26):
So, even though that's not like a big T trauma,
you're missing out on thatattunement, which is so
essential for development, andthen we miss those opportunities
during those developmentalstages to be our full selves, to
have that full understandingand twinship, and mirroring that
.
We really need to really feelsolid in ourselves, yeah, yeah.
Audrey Burke (26:52):
Exactly, and that's something that we see so
often in people withdevelopmental traumas, having
that like weak sense of self orsomething with their perception
of self.
April Snow (27:03):
I mean this is really putting a lot of pieces
together for me with a lot ofcommon HSP struggles.
Is that, you know, lacking thatsolid sense of confidence or
kind of just trying to live theway other people live instead of
saying, no, this is who I am,this is what I need, and feeling
really solid and certain inthat, yeah, yeah.
Audrey Burke (27:25):
I see that very often as well.
Yeah, Now one thing.
I do want to give a littledisclaimer because I don't want
people to think like if they hadone of these adverse babyhood
experiences, that they're likedoomed for life.
Yes, yeah, just because you hadone of these doesn't
necessarily mean it traumatizedyou In some ways.
It can be like a little bitrandom where in a family you
(27:46):
have one kid who is traumatizedin like a family system, and
another is completely fine.
So just because you've had oneof these experiences doesn't
necessarily mean you're going toget chronic illness, right,
right, good to clarify that,yeah, because I know myself I
was hearing this in the past Imight start to feel worried that
this means I'm gonna get sickor something.
(28:10):
And also what the kind of theseadverse childhood lists don't
list for is there could also belike positive childhood
experiences that serve asantidotes to this stuff.
So if you do have positiveexperiences in your childhood,
it helps you be more resilient.
So even if you've had some ofthese experiences, you can
overcome them.
I mean children, really whatthey need is like at least one
(28:33):
adult who like really loves themand really supports them, and
it might not be a parent, itcould be a teacher at school or
a grandparent or a friend'sparent, and so just want to give
that little disclaimer.
April Snow (28:47):
Yeah, it's not an automatic sentence, right?
So you're saying you knowthere's experiences during early
childhood or during adolescencethat can counteract those
traumatic babyhood experiences?
Yeah, what if, though, we'renow in adults and we didn't
necessarily get that inchildhood?
(29:08):
Is there anything we can do nowon our own?
Audrey Burke (29:12):
Yeah, well, so those last words I just like my
attention on your own.
That's the tricky part, becausewhen these traumas happen in a
relationship, they really arebest healed through a
relationship.
Traumas happen in arelationship, they really are
best healed through arelationship.
And I so often people askingfor, like I want to learn some
somatic experiencing, like giveme exercises, and I'm like this
isn't really something you do athome by yourself, right?
(29:35):
I mean there are some practicesthat are helpful, but when we're
healing these relational woundsand like, especially around the
attunement, if you didn't getthe attunement you needed, it's
about having reparativeexperiences, like receiving
attunement as adults to helpheal some of these wounds.
Or if you never receivedco-regulation that you needed,
(29:56):
it's about having your system beable to receive co-regulation
now as an adult.
So I think working with apractitioner is super, super
important for these early wounds.
So often people withdevelopmental trauma have been
doing it all by themselves for areally long time.
April Snow (30:16):
Yeah, I mean, when you've been through these
experiences, it seems safer tobe alone because you've been
hurt in relationship, yeah, yeah.
But I agree with you, and I'veexperienced this myself, that
healing does only happen inrelationships, because that's
where it started, and I've seenthis with clients too.
When we move from that solowork to that relational work,
(30:40):
things start moving a lot faster.
And you know, even doing bodywork and somatic work, it's so
much more powerful, impactful.
So how do we bridge that gap?
You're saying you can work witha practitioner.
I wonder if you could say alittle bit more about that, what
that looks like.
Audrey Burke (31:00):
Yeah Well, I'm a big fan of somatic therapy.
Obviously, I'm trained insomatic experiencing.
There's also other kinds oftrauma therapy, like sensory
motor psychotherapy, but I dothink when you're working with
trauma, having some somaticapproach, something that
includes the body, is superhelpful, especially for those
developmental traumas thathappen before the age of three,
(31:20):
like you're not going to haveconscious memories of those
events.
They're stored in your limbicsystem, which speaks the
language of sensation, so thosememories are stored in our body
speaks the language of sensation, so those memories are stored
in our body.
I do think touch is a reallyhelpful intervention for
developmental trauma because,again, often touch was the
missing piece of like, nothaving enough touch, not having
(31:43):
enough co-regulation throughtouch.
So you might look for apractitioner who uses touch in
their practice.
I'm a licensed massage therapist, so I touch people.
There are some counselors whoalso use touch, but it really
depends on what state they livein.
Like some state boards arestricter around touch than
others.
So I've studied with StevenTerrell.
(32:04):
He also co-teaches with someonenamed Kathy Kane.
They have a website calledco-regulating touchcom where you
can look up all thepractitioners who've trained
with them.
So that's a great resource.
But of course, some peopledon't feel comfortable with
touch.
Maybe they have boundaryviolations, and so you can do
this work without touch as well.
April Snow (32:24):
So you can really meet yourself where you're at.
Yeah, depending on what youreally need.
Audrey Burke (32:29):
And some people might need to do some work
around boundaries before they'recomfortable receiving touch.
So they know, if I get on amassage table and there's
something I don't like, I canspeak up about it.
April Snow (32:41):
That does bring me to the question of when we're
pursuing a practitioner thatdoes touch.
So let's say we're working witha massage therapist, because my
massage therapist is trained insomatic experiencing, so I know
she's working through that lens.
But can I also find value inkind of a more traditional
massage therapist who's maybenot looking through the somatic
(33:04):
healing lens?
Does it work either way at somelevel?
Audrey Burke (33:09):
I think there's definitely differences.
I do think there's a lot ofbenefit to getting massage, but
it's a little bit different whenit's a somatic, experiencing
practitioner who's doing touchwork.
There's going to be a differentlevel of attunement and they're
also like when I do thetransforming touch work I do,
I'm really connecting with, likethe infant parts and I'm like
(33:33):
really attuning to the body morethan a massage therapist would
when they're just, you know,doing manipulations to your
muscles.
April Snow (33:42):
Right, yeah, I just wanted to ask that question.
I can imagine if someone's juststarting they might be like oh,
I can go get a massage startingthey might be like, oh, I can
go get a massage, but there'slevels.
Audrey Burke (33:57):
Yeah, I still think a massage is helpful for
nervous system regulation but Idon't know if it will quite heal
those like relational wounds,unless it's an amazing massage
therapist, right, but generallyalso, you know massage
therapists it's a little bittricky the scope of practice.
You know they're not.
It's a little bit tricky, thescope of practice.
You know they're not reallyallowed to hold space for too
much emotional experience, likethey can let you have your
(34:19):
emotion but they can't processit with you.
April Snow (34:22):
Right, right.
So then you're again holding iton your own.
Yeah, I mean, to me that couldfeel almost re-traumatizing,
like here I am repeating thiscycle and I'm on my own again.
Potentially so helpful to havespace where you can let those
emotions come out however theyneed to.
(34:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm wondering.
You know you've talked aboutyour love of somatic work and
we're seeing the healing effectsof it and just the
transformative nature of somaticwork, but I'm wondering what
led you personally to doing thistype of work?
You've hinted at it already.
I'm wondering we could spend alittle more time there to see
(35:06):
how it's connected for you.
Audrey Burke (35:09):
Yeah, I'm happy to talk about my story.
So, as I mentioned, I had anervous breakdown about 11 years
ago.
I was living in Italy at thetime and I'm not quite sure what
like the last trigger was.
I did get a bad cold.
I had a really bad cough forthree weeks and then it was like
after that, all these somaticsymptoms started, and Veronica
(35:29):
Mead actually talks about that.
Often, like before chronicillness starts, there's like one
trigger and maybe you've had alot of stuff leading up to it,
but it's like one virus orsomething that like kicks you
over into the more chronicillness.
So at that time I startedhaving more somatic symptoms
that were really affecting myeveryday life, like irritable
(35:50):
bowel syndrome.
I didn't get my period for likefour years.
I lost like 30 pounds and waslike having a hard time putting
it back on.
There was a period where it waslike hard to go outside in
Bologna, italy, just likeoverwhelmed by the smells
outside and the exhaust andeverything.
So that was what really kind ofsent me on my healing path and
(36:14):
I didn't find somaticexperiencing for like five years
.
I tried like doctors andacupuncture and yoga and
meditation retreats and allthese things.
And then I finally landed in theoffice of a somatic
experiencing practitioner andshe did do touch in her practice
and it was after that firstsession that I just felt this
huge like sigh of relief.
I was like, oh yeah, this islike what I thought therapy
(36:37):
would be and like this is whatmy body needs yeah, it often is
that search right, trying to putthe pieces together on your own
, like it's overwhelming.
April Snow (36:47):
Honestly, there's so many different types of healing
work out there, somatic andnon-somatic, like what's going
to stick, what's going to work,and five years is a long time to
be searching.
Audrey Burke (37:02):
Yeah, and that was like one of the most
overwhelming parts too, was likefeeling like I was holding that
whole process by myself, liketrying different diets and
trying different supplements anddifferent doctors, and not
feeling like I had someone likeholding that with me Right.
Yeah, it can feel really kindof scary and overwhelming.
April Snow (37:23):
You're saying something important, which is
often our body will tell us whatwe need by sending out those
symptoms, and we may not alwaysknow what it's telling us, but
it's telling us something.
So, you might have a mysterioussymptom, physical symptom or
health issue.
So in your process you weregoing in, blind, looking,
(37:44):
searching, and I remember doingthe same thing 15, 20 years ago.
I'm going to the naturopath,I'm going to the acupuncturist,
I'm going to the therapist, I'mdoing, you know, body work, I'm
getting acupressure, I'm gettingcolonics, so many things I've
tried and then finally settledon okay, I'm doing functional
medicine, I'm doing somatic work.
This is what I, this is whatworks.
(38:04):
But if you're, let's say, forthe listener who's just starting
their own process, they'rehaving maybe some mysterious
symptoms or some emotionaldysregulation.
Knowing what you know now, howcan we start the healing process
?
Audrey Burke (38:21):
knowing what I know now.
Well, I think like one of themost helpful things for me was
just like asking a lot ofquestions, like when I would go
to practitioners to like evenasking them like who do you
recommend, rather than having toget on the computer and search
for practitioners, but likeasking people that you already
(38:41):
trust.
Maybe it's an acupuncturist orsomething like who do you
recommend for therapy?
Or do you know a doctor?
Because they often like will benetworks, so that's definitely
helped.
I think also just like trustingyour gut, which I know is
sometimes hard if you have notyet done somatic work, like
that's like kind of this catch22.
Yeah, because I've had negativeexperiences with therapists
(39:02):
before and it was like I didn'tyet have the ability to be like
oh, this doesn't feel good,maybe I should find a new
therapist.
But the best of your ability,like trust your gut and at least
maybe try multiple people andthat way you can compare them.
Because I just went to onetherapist and worked with her
for two years and it probablywasn't the best fit and in
hindsight I wish I had likeshopped around a little bit.
(39:24):
I didn't even know that wassomething people did.
I just thought if I found onetherapist, like all therapists
were good, but they're not allgood.
And they're not all.
They don't all understand highsensitivity.
April Snow (39:36):
Exactly, yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying
is really important because,having done a lot of consults
with people, I always encouragethem take a moment.
What we've talked about, checkin with your gut, talk to some
other people, because peopledon't know that they can shop
around.
No one tells you that and noone realizes that there are bad
(39:57):
therapists out there.
There are bad practitioners whoI don't think intentionally,
but they may just not be a goodfit, right?
Or, as you're saying, they maynot understand high sensitivity
and that could really turn youdown the wrong path.
Because, then you're focusing onthe wrong piece of information
or you're not implementing acritical piece of the puzzle.
Audrey Burke (40:21):
Exactly.
April Snow (40:22):
Yeah, let's say you're sensitive and you do have
trauma.
We need to hold both of thoseat once, not only focus on the
trauma.
Audrey Burke (40:28):
Yeah, yeah, and that brings up another good
point.
If you do feel like you have ahistory of trauma, like you'll
want to interview the person,well, because there might be
people who say they're liketrauma informed, but it's like
no, which training did you doand are you certified and how
many years of experience do youhave?
And like you can even ask themdo you have personal experience
with trauma?
April Snow (40:53):
Like maybe they won't go into the whole story,
but at least that way you know,like maybe they've done their
own work in this field.
Yes, those are great questionsand I just to give people
permission it's okay to askthose questions.
This person is going to beholding your mental or physical
health in their hands.
Ask the questions, even if ithas to be through an email, if
you're not comfortable doing itverbally.
It's okay to see if they canactually support you, if they
(41:14):
understand you.
Audrey Burke (41:17):
Yeah, and this is where the internet comes in
handy.
Or even like chat GBT.
You can ask chat GBT like I'mabout to have a call with a new
therapist, like what questionsshould I ask?
April Snow (41:26):
Yes, exactly, it's a great support to get you to
find the right fit for whatyou're looking for, what you're
needing.
Yeah, I love that.
Well, anything else here beforewe start to wrap up our
conversation?
Audrey Burke (41:41):
Audrey.
Well, one thing I feel like Ididn't really touch on that I
would like to talk about is justkind of where the root of these
syndromes are from, which areoften rooted in those early
childhood experiences is withour nervous system.
The like gas and brake systemstop working properly.
(42:03):
And what I mean by that is likethe gas is the sympathetic part
of your nervous system.
It's like what mobilizes you tolike get up in the morning, or
like run or fight if you need to, and then the break is your
parasympathetic or helping youto settle back down.
And what happens with thesesyndromes is like the gas and
brakes start not functioningoptimally, so you either get
(42:24):
stuck on on or you get stuck onoff.
There can also be situationswhere the gas and brake are on
at the same time, which willlook like people who are just
fluctuating between those twoextremes of being like in panic
and then shut down.
And this is where the somaticwork comes in, really helpful to
help get our system regulatedagain and to help get the gas
(42:46):
and the brake working again.
April Snow (42:48):
That's such a good piece to know like, oh, you
could be stuck in these systemsand it doesn't have to be that
way.
Right, there can be healingwork that pulls you out of that
you can find more equanimity.
Yeah, so love that.
Audrey Burke (43:04):
And I do think it's still important to like see
some medical doctors to ruleout anything that actually might
be medical, like maybe you'reexperiencing fatigue, it's like
well, it could be low vitamin D,it could be anemia, it could be
it could be.
So I think it's a good idea tolike get checked out medically
to make sure there's nothingmajorly obvious going on.
(43:24):
But I do think trying outsomatic work specifically
focused on like regulation,regulation, regulation Well,
even if you have a medical issue, being more regulated will
probably help you deal with that.
And then, if it isn't a medicalissue, if it's more of this
syndrome that doesn't have likea medical root cause but it's
(43:44):
more from nervous systemsdysregulation, the regulation,
somatic work might really helpwith those symptoms.
April Snow (43:52):
Because I always think about how our body only
has so many ways to expressitself.
So it could be a nutrientdeficiency, it could be a
nervous system dysregulationissue.
But it's good to check that out, to really sift through and see
what is the problem here or theroot cause, and what do I need
to support myself.
(44:12):
And oftentimes it's amulti-prong approach, but good
to know, because anxiety itcould be you know I need more
magnesium or it could be oh, Iam burnt out.
Audrey Burke (44:24):
Yeah, there's a lot of different ways to get
there yeah, and I do thinkhaving that what you say
multi-pronged approach ishelpful, because I see people
sometimes like in one camp wherethey're like just going the
medical route and they reallywant like a specific diagnosis,
and other people who are just inthe somatic route and they're
like so focused on, like youknow, healing something
(44:46):
energetically and it's like,well, maybe it's a medical issue
.
So I think having thatmultidiscipline approach is
really helpful.
April Snow (44:55):
All right.
It's a holistic, full body,full system approach.
Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah.
Thank you for that.
So much good information todayand you shared a lot of great
resources.
I'll make sure I share those inthe show notes for folks, along
with your website, your socialmedia.
You also have a free somatichealing guide for folks.
I'll share that as well, and Ijust want to thank you so much
(45:16):
for being here today, audrey.
This is one of my favoritetopics to talk about and I feel
like you added a lot of nuanceto it, so I appreciate that.
Audrey Burke (45:24):
Yeah Well, I love talking about this topic and it
was a pleasure to talk toanother highly sensitive person
about it Same.
April Snow (45:31):
I know it adds some nuance to the conversation,
which I really appreciate.
And before we go, though, Iknow that you offer one-to-one
work online for folks who maybeare ready to start working with
a practitioner.
Can you tell folks a little bitmore about what that might look
like if they were to work withyou online?
Audrey Burke (45:47):
Yeah, and I do see people in person as well.
I'm in Durham, durham, northCarolina.
But for the online work it canlook a few different ways.
It really depends on the personand what their goals are.
Sometimes we're doing moredialogue based work, where I
might be asking them to try somedifferent exercises so we can
(46:08):
see how the body responds, whichmight be like bringing our
awareness outward, lookingaround the room.
Sometimes it was bringing ourawareness inwards.
What are we noticing in the body?
We're tracking things likesensation and image and impulses
the body wants to have.
But then I can also do thistransforming touch work online,
which is a lot quieter.
(46:28):
That work is specificallytargeted towards developmental
trauma, so it makes sense thatthere wouldn't be as many words,
because just like you'reworking with a baby, wouldn't be
?
Maybe you're singing to them,but a baby is like pre cognitive
, pre verbal.
So with that I might beinviting the person to either
imagine that I have touched onthem or we might be bringing our
(46:49):
awareness to different parts ofthe body.
And I also do the transformingtouch work online, which is more
targeted towards developmentaltrauma.
So that work is a lot quieterand you know, I'm just bringing
my awareness and my intention tovarious points on the person's
body, but the main goal of justhelping them to co-regulate.
April Snow (47:09):
Beautiful, and that sounds like that could be a safe
way to enter into that work,where you're then in charge of
the touch for yourself.
Audrey Burke (47:17):
I love that.
Yeah yeah, it depends on theperson, you know what feels
safest to their system.
True, For some people it does.
Yeah yeah absolutely Well.
April Snow (47:26):
Lots of great resources.
Thank you so much, Audrey.
I really appreciate it.
All right, Great to meet you,April.
Thanks for having me.
Yes, it was fun to meet you aswell.
Thanks for joining me andAudrey for today's conversation.
What I hope you remember isthat, no matter what you've been
(47:51):
through, you can still feelwhole again by surrounding
yourself with the people youfeel safe with and being sure to
soak up whatever positiveexperiences are happening around
you.
Find Audrey's free somatichealing guide on her website,
restorativepresencecom, as wellas more information on working
with her one-to-one, whetherit's online or in person, in
North Carolina.
Links are in the show notes.
(48:17):
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSB resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow Sensitive
Strengths on Instagram, TikTokand YouTube.
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
(48:38):
Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.