August 12, 2025 • 48 mins
Do you get overly attached to fictional characters, musicians, or other people who live in the public eye? In this episode, I talk with Lana Holmes, Psy.D., LCP about the pros and cons of parasocial relationships as well as:
• Why HSPs are more impacted by parasocial connections
• The purpose of parasocial relationships that serve as role models, provide a sense of belonging, or build self-esteem
• The downsides of forming attachments with fictional characters or public figures
• Ways parasocial relationships impact your real life connections and when it’s time to set boundaries
• Using your parasocial connections as clues to the values and traits you’re looking for in your real life connections
Dr. Lana is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist at the Center for Inclusive Therapy + Wellness. She's passionate about providing therapy that welcomes and celebrates marginalized, oppressed, and stigmatized communities. Her areas of clinical interest and expertise include: the intersection between mental health and spirituality, issues pertaining to BDSM, kink, and ethical non-monogamy; issues pertaining to BIPOC individuals, issues pertaining to LGBTQIA2S+ folx, trauma across the lifespan, life transitions, anxiety disorders, and depressive disorders. She currently has openings for online individual and couples therapy.
Keep in touch with Dr. Lana:
• Website: https://www.inclusivetherapywellness.com/lana
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lana-holmes-psy-d-348972186
• Email: inclusivetherapywellness@gmail.com
Resources Mentioned:
• Kink and Clinical Practice 101 Training: https://www.touchstoneinstitute.org/trainings/kink-and-clinical-practice-101-(self-paced)
• Luddite Club: https://www.theludditeclub.org
• Mass Communication and Parasocial Interaction Study: https://doi.org/10.1080/00332747.1956.11023049
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https://www.sensitivestories.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Lana Holmes (00:00):
We often overestimate the amount of
social support that people havehad in their lives or really
healthy human connection, andone of the positive things about
parasocial relationships is theidea that you can have a
positive role model, because Ican think of so many people who
(00:20):
have had that experience, wherethey're like I didn't know
anybody who had my life story ormy experience and I saw this
person who is a public figureand who's successful being who
they are and it made me feellike maybe I could make it or
maybe my life had meaning andpurpose and I wasn't doomed to
be whatever negative thingspeople told me.
April Snow (00:53):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk with DrLana Holmes about the impact of
(01:15):
parasocial relationships withyour favorite fictional
characters and public figures,such as musicians or actors, who
serve as your role models,provide a sense of belonging or
build self-esteem.
We also look at the sciencethat these attachments are
getting in the way of yourreal-life connections and what
to do about that.
Lana is a licensed clinicalpsychologist at the Center for
(01:36):
Inclusive Therapy and Wellness.
She's passionate aboutproviding therapy that welcomes
and celebrates marginalized,oppressed and stigmatized
communities.
Her areas of clinical interestand expertise include the
intersection between mentalhealth and spirituality, issues
pertaining to BDSM, kink andethical non-monogamy, issues
pertaining to BIPOC andLGBTQIA2S, plus folks trauma
(01:59):
across the lifespan, lifetransitions, anxiety and
depression.
She currently has openings forindividual and couples therapy
online.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
(02:22):
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
So welcome Lana.
(02:53):
I am so excited to have youback on the podcast.
Dr. Lana Holmes (02:56):
Hey, it's a pleasure to be back April.
Thank you for having me.
April Snow (02:59):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Listeners might remember youfrom episode 47, where you
talked about honoring yourthresholds as a Black HSP.
A lot of folks love thatconversation, but we're going in
a little bit of a differentdirection today, talking about
the HSP experience of parasocialrelationships.
So I'm wondering if you couldshare with listeners a little
(03:19):
bit about how we came about thisconversation today.
Dr. Lana Holmes (03:22):
Yes, thank you.
Yeah, so actually it startedfrom the last time that I was on
the podcast, because I rememberlooking at, I think, some of
your blog posts and newsletterswhere you were sharing how much
of a music fan that you were,and I can definitely relate to
that.
I'm a huge music fan and I thinkafter the last podcast episode
recording, we were talking aboutkind of that experience of
(03:45):
being a music fan and findingout that your favorite artist or
band has been accused ofsomething egregious and how,
within these different fancommunities, there could be a
discussion about, like, how todeal with it, but also people's
thoughts and feelings about it,and often, as I'm sure you know,
viewers and audience memberscan relate to is one of the
things people say.
As I'm sure you know viewersand audience members can relate
(04:05):
to, is one of the things peoplesay is like oh, you know, just
enjoy the music, like, don'tthink about what this person has
done, and it's like well, butthis like lives inside of me,
like this music and everythingthat means for my life.
It is a part of me, it's a partof so many memories that I've
formed and experiences I've hadthat it's a painful experience
(04:26):
to just extricate it, but thenalso like, how do I ethically,
morally, like face theseaccusations as a consumer?
April Snow (04:37):
exactly because you're right, it's in our DNA.
I mean, when I listen to oldCDs that I've kind of pulled out
of the archives of my storageunit or my back shed, it's like
oh, these are so wrapped up inmy memories, so when something
does come up, that's problematicand we'll get into that a
little bit more in a bit.
(04:58):
It's pretty heartbreaking,right.
It's like disorienting.
What do I do with this, right?
So, before we jump too far in,just for folks who may have not
heard this term parasocialrelationship because this is one
I only learned maybe a year ortwo ago Could you define it for
us before we go any further?
Dr. Lana Holmes (05:15):
Yeah, of social interaction dates back to a
peer-reviewed journal articlethat was co-written by Donald
Horton and R Richard Wohl orthat's my German pronunciation,
but it's probably Americanizedas Wohl in 1956.
And so, basically, a pair ofsocial interaction denotes
(05:38):
exposure to a public figure oreven a fictitious character that
elicits a socio-emotionalconnection from a viewer,
fictitious character thatelicits a socio-emotional
connection from a viewer, fan,follower or consumer.
Now, after repeated parasocialinteractions, a parasocial
relationship is formed in whichthe public figure or fictitious
character is regarded in a waysimilar to a loved one, with
(05:58):
deep emotional intimacy andpersonal identification.
But here's the rub, it'sone-sided.
And personal identification,but here's the rub, it's
one-sided.
so like, obviously, if it's afictitious character, that like
it just doesn't exist at all,but like if it is a real life
person who either their work islike themselves or their work is
(06:19):
related to, you know, creatingmusic or acting or et cetera is
that person doesn't know aboutthe emotional, psychological
connection that a fan or aviewer is making with them, even
if they're aware of it just asa general point of consciousness
.
It's not reciprocated, it's notlike oh yeah, I'm calling you
(06:40):
all the time or hanging out, I'mdeeply involved in your life.
April Snow (06:46):
Right, that's such a good point that it's at the
level of a loved one, so it's sodeeply emotionally entangled
for us as the I don't know thefan or the follower.
But right, the other person hasno idea.
Dr. Lana Holmes (07:03):
I mean, this seems kind of dangerous
emotionally speaking it can.
And I mean this is tricky.
I think one of the things thatI try to do when I talk about or
even think about parasocialrelationships is it's common,
because I think sometimes therecan be this like
self-righteousness when peopletalk about like oh my gosh,
that's like so stupid and weirdand like why would anybody do
that?
But I think everyone to somedegree, even if you're not
(07:28):
consciously aware of it, hasmade that kind of connection at
some point in their life.
I mean, think about when wewere kids.
I think a lot of us very easilylatched on to people on our
favorite kids' TV shows in avery deeply emotional way and
then you know we probably canrecall those conversations with
parents or teachers being likewell, you know, barney isn't
real sweetie.
April Snow (07:48):
You know like.
Dr. Lana Holmes (07:51):
Barney is not coming to your birthday party
and is not going to.
You know, be your best friend.
But even as we go through otherstages of development, there
can be those deep emotionalconnections and so it is quite
commonplace.
But I think it has more to dowith recognizing it and the
degree to which we engage inthat and the impact that has on
(08:15):
us.
April Snow (08:16):
Yeah, so what you're helping me realize is that
there are probably levels ofattachment.
Right, and some can be reallycasual and maybe some go as far
as being, you know, overlyenmeshed and a tie in.
It's funny when you said beingkids.
I remember being two years oldand my favorite show was Lassie
and I was so attached that Iwould get really upset about
(08:38):
taking a nap because I was soafraid of missing the show,
because I loved it so much andthat was my first parasocial
relationship.
Right now, now that I'mrealizing it and it's gone on
and you know, on throughout mylife, yeah, and I can imagine
HSPs particularly maybe beingmore likely to deeply attach.
Given our emotionalexpansiveness, responsiveness,
(09:02):
you know we tend to go deep inour interests and attachments.
Can we talk a little bit aboutthat, how an HSP might
experience these relationships?
Dr. Lana Holmes (09:13):
Yeah, no.
So it's interesting because, atleast for me, when I was
looking at available peerreviewed journal articles and
research on this, there hasn'tbeen anything that I've seen as
of today's recording thatspecifically focuses on.
HSPs and parasocialrelationships or parasocial
interactions.
However, like you were stating,one of the things I was like
(09:34):
well, because it's such anemotionally and psychologically
driven phenomenon, that orphenomenon, excuse me is the
fact that, like hsps, we areemotionally expansive people,
very emotionally attuned,empathic that there could be a
particular vulnerability for usof just kind of like
(09:55):
automatically, kind of becominglike really enveloped in the
parasocial paradigm yeah, it'strue, I was sharing with you
earlier how I've started torealize all the different types
of parasocial relationships Ihave personally and not really
realizing it before because itjust has seemed pretty natural.
April Snow (10:14):
And a big one is a musician which we share that
love for music and one of myfavorite musicians is Brandi
Carlile.
And I've noticed throughout mylife I've had my favorite
musician.
That's been like the number onespot.
It shifts as I shift.
But I've been watching clips onYouTube of clips of old
concerts and just seeing theprogression of her career and
(10:36):
realizing like I feel proud ofher.
It's so funny Like a sister,like a sister Because I've seen
her go from.
We have kind of similarities inour backgrounds where she grew
up very poor with an alcoholicfather and has had to really
fight to progress in her lifeand I'm like, oh, I can really
relate to that.
(10:57):
So I think it makes me moresusceptible to attaching and I'm
like, oh, look, she's doing sogreat and she's getting more
notoriety and and I justappreciate how she lifts people
up along the way in that and Ithink there's like a values
connection as well.
So I'm just as I was thinkingabout our conversation, I was
like oh, this is really layeredfor me.
Dr. Lana Holmes (11:19):
It is, and I think thinking about the layers
of degrees.
Typically, if people envisionyou know someone who's involved
in a parasocial relationship,they think about the most
extreme case, which you know issomeone who's like, obsessed or
will frequently cross boundarieswith the object of the
parasocial relationship.
(11:39):
But for a lot of people it'sabout I can relate to you and I
think this is one of the reasonsagain, I approach this with
sensitivity, because I think weoften overestimate the amount of
social support that people havehad in their lives or really
(11:59):
healthy human connection.
And one of the positive thingsabout parasocial relationships
is the idea that you can have apositive role model, someone
that you relate to and you'relike, because I can think of so
many people who have had thatexperience where they're like.
I didn't know anybody who had mylife story, my experience, and
I saw this person who is apublic figure and who's
(12:22):
successful, being who they areand it made me feel like maybe I
could make it or maybe my lifehad meaning and purpose and I
wasn't doomed to be whatevernegative things people told me.
And also I mean you even thinkabout certain groups that
particularly think aboutmarginalized, oppressed and
stigmatized groups.
There are certain publicfigures where it's been this
like point of pride and esteemthat, like, this person is
(12:47):
succeeding and doing incrediblethings, which is a positive
representation of our community.
So, you know, that's like thoseare actually like not only
natural things that help usconnect to any fellow human
being, but also it's one of thepositive things, things about
that of people being able to say, oh, there are other folks out
(13:07):
there that I can relate to andit can be a source of
inspiration that can motivatepeople to make their own
accomplishments the layers ofthe parasocial relationship, or
sometimes it is a role model.
April Snow (13:23):
It's maybe some twinship, where you see yourself
reflected in another person andit's inspirational, it's
hopeful and those are incrediblypositive right, and maybe it
gives you something to keepmoving forward.
Mm-hmm, and I know there's alsoa downside, maybe a dark side.
Something I've seen for myselfis musicians I've grown up
(13:46):
loving.
Recently I've realized, oh,they have problematic politics
or there's been egregious actsthey've committed or some
controversy and I can'tethically support those
musicians anymore.
So can we talk a little bitabout the downsides?
We hinted at it already, butlet's go into that more.
What are the downsides offorming these attachments with
(14:07):
either fictional characters ormusicians or public figures?
Dr. Lana Holmes (14:11):
Yeah, no, definitely.
I think one of the things is,you know it can be people can
have a dependency on theparasocial relationship or the
parasocial, you know, publicfigure as a source of emotional
fulfillment, esteem or humanconnection.
Also, there can be an accurate,maladaptive understanding of
(14:32):
relationships.
So, specifically, relationshipsare characterized by, like the
willing act of participation ofboth parties and are reciprocal.
Like the willing act ofparticipation of both parties
and are reciprocal.
And so if people are just kindof like, oh, I'm idealizing this
person and the parasocialrelationship that, like
reforming it can kind of makepeople think like, oh well, you
know, this person just iseverything that I could ever
(14:55):
want and it's perfect, and it'skind of even within my control,
and that's how everyrelationship should be.
And it's like, and it's kind ofeven within my control, and
that's how every relationshipshould be, and it's like well,
no, like, people are alwaysgoing to have their own sense of
personal agency andrelationships are collaborative
and even really healthyrelationships are going to have
disagreements or conflict orpeople have different beliefs
(15:15):
and opinions, and so how can youwork through that instead of
being like you have to beeverything I could ever want or
need in a person, or else it'snot worth it.
April Snow (15:26):
It's really setting people up for failure in
relationships.
Dr. Lana Holmes (15:30):
Yeah, if it's not checked right, because I
think if you have thatself-awareness of like, this
person is a role model or aninspiration, but I know like
there is no interface between usthen you could kind of be like,
yeah, I'm looking for thosequalities and characteristics in
others, right, like.
But if it's kind of like no,you know, it always has to be
(15:50):
like this idealized version thatI've formed in my head.
That's when it can be reallyhard.
Also, you know, something thatcan be a risk too is placing
less effort in forming andmaintaining real life
relationships so kind of what wewere already talking about or
at least not prioritizing thoserelationships.
Also, another thing can bemaking the parasocial
(16:13):
relationship the center point ofone's identity or life or life,
and that can take a number offorms, like.
I've definitely seen examples ofpeople where it's like that is
who they are as a person, likethey love this public figure, or
like, and that's likeeverything that is.
(16:33):
But also I've seen exampleswhere people have devoted a lot
of money to their favoritepublic figure in a way where
it's like and I'm not justtalking about like a few things
here and there, or splurge, I'mtalking like repeatedly
dedicating a huge sum of moneyto their favorite public figure,
and sometimes people will actlike it's almost like pledging
(16:55):
fealty, you know where it's.
Like I must like, I have tolike show up for this person,
like anytime that they're like Ihave to like show up for this
person, like anytime thatthey're creating something I
have to, or going back to, likeif there's a public figure that
gets into trouble and has, youknow, any kind of allegations or
whatever lodged against them,there can be people who will.
(17:15):
I mean, I've heard stories ofpeople who took time off of work
, traveled across several statesor even to another country to
show their support to theirpublic figure.
And I'm like, oh, and there arepeople who are just like it's
like the sense of mission andone of the things I'll have is
I'm like, well, if there wassomebody in your family or your
(17:36):
friend group or community oreven in your place of work that
like needed that level ofsupport, you be like, yeah, I'm
dropping everything and helpingthis person out.
And usually the answer is no,because there have been like
high profile cases where it'sbeen pointed out like hey, you
know, this issue that thisperson is facing is a larger
scale issue that affects a lotof people who maybe don't have
(17:57):
the same kind of power andinfluence.
And may you know, if you reallyare concerned about it, like
maybe this could be anopportunity to get involved in
like this broader movement toaddress this issue.
And usually what will happen is, once it's resolved with, like
the public figure, people packup their stuff and go home.
April Snow (18:14):
What you said was interesting about how will you
show up for the people in yourlife?
The way you show up for thepeople in your life, the way you
show up for this person, youdon't know right, no and a
balance there there is such animbalance there and I think it's
an important point ofconsideration.
Dr. Lana Holmes (18:31):
I think the other kind of downside of
parasocial relationships, too,is, again, this is not common,
but it's when people crossinterpersonal boundaries, so
this can take the form of youknow, one of the examples I can
think of is like peoplebasically making inappropriate
(18:53):
communications or contact withtheir favorite public figure.
I can also think about and thishas happened a lot online in
particular like if there is afan base that loves a particular
public figure and somebodycriticizes that person or that
group or whatever.
There will be death threats orpeople who said, like you should
kill yourself.
(19:13):
It should never reach thatpoint of you know calling for
someone's death just becausethey don't like someone or they
have concerns about whatsomebody's saying or doing it
gets really extreme, yeah, andit becomes their whole
(19:33):
personality, really like.
April Snow (19:35):
This is my whole life is centering around this
person, this figure, this youknow, you know this character,
whatever it is yeah, that feelsreally dangerous.
Dr. Lana Holmes (19:45):
Yeah, it can feel really dangerous, but you
know, to balance it out in terms, of like some of the other
things we hadn't mentionedthat's on, you know, going back
to the positive sides is it canconnect people to other people.
So, again, like, one of thethings that's a concern is like,
like what's your in real lifesocial support network?
(20:07):
And there's been reallybeautiful stories of people who
said, like I was able to tapinto a subculture or into a fan
community of people where Iformed real life relationships
and, you know, felt a sense ofbelonging that wasn't just
focused on this particular pointof interest, but also abandoned
and other things you know, andso that it can kind of, in the
(20:30):
more healthy, adaptive side ofthings, be a bridge for people
to connect to other people wherethey're like well, this is
something we all have in commonand we all like, and so this can
break the ice and like help meto reach out to other people,
you know.
April Snow (20:43):
Right, it's a point of shared connection.
So the parasocial relationshipcould then be a pathway to in
real life connections andattachments.
So how do we find that balance?
How do we maybe start to detachfrom the public figure, set
some boundaries and then maybemove more into real life
connections?
Dr. Lana Holmes (21:04):
Yeah, so I think it really depends on the
person and on the amount ofsocial support in their life
right and their resources.
I think it's important torecognize that there's a
difference between being deeplymoved by somebody's work or by
(21:26):
you know their life story andversus becoming like a devotee
of them Right, so that there waslike that distinction and I
think what can be done is likeredirecting one's time and
energy to forming andmaintaining relationships in
real life.
So, for example, if there's anactor who played a character
(21:48):
that you admired for theircharisma or morality or
intelligence or kindness, youcan look for those traits in
people rather than just beinglike I just have to kind of
really like just focus on thisperson or this character as
being like the source of thosequalities, right?
April Snow (22:09):
That's really helpful to think about, because
there's a reason you're drawn tothis person or this character.
Right, it could be this actor,but in this specific role it's
like, yeah, what is it aboutthem?
What values do they have?
What traits do they have?
What experiences I love this.
Almost feels like a hack ofsorts, like a way to tap into
(22:30):
what you're looking for in yourrelationships.
Dr. Lana Holmes (22:32):
Right, yeah, and I mean it can be just like
kind of a impetus right for that, where you're like oh, you know
, I really want to find somebodywho is like that and again
realizing that like a characterwhether it's completely
fictitious, or like a characteryou read in a book or is being
portrayed in a film or atelevision show that you know
(22:57):
it's not going to be this likeidealized, perfectly formed
situation that you have completecontrol over, but you could go
like, yeah, you know it's notgoing to be this like idealized,
perfectly formed situation thatyou have complete control over,
but you could go like, yeah,you know, this is something for
me to hold on to as a positiveexample and that I can look for.
So I think there's that.
But I think also just going backto like basic interpersonal
skills and social skills andjust being like, well, realizing
(23:20):
that public figures are people,and I think sometimes, with the
way that we've all beenconditioned around fame and
celebrity and people who dopublic facing work is there's
kind of been this idea of like,well, it's what they signed up
for.
But I feel like over the pastcouple of decades, public
figures have been moretransparent over the fact that
they're like I didn't sign upfor this.
(23:42):
I didn't sign for my privacy tobe invaded or for people to be
rude to me or for people to dothings that are really scary and
upsetting, and so I think it'simportant for people not just to
make assumptions that, oh well,because you're doing public
facing work, that means that Iam entitled to do and say
whatever I want to you and youjust have to accept it.
Because I've also seen somelanguage where people who have
(24:05):
kind of been like well, if Ihave paid money for your work or
your services, then I can dowhatever I want and it's like
you owe me, like it'stransactional, it's like well no
.
So I think it's always importantto think about like would you
do this with any human being?
right is this like healthy,appropriate, ethical, lawful
(24:27):
behavior to do to anybody?
And if you're like, well, no,it wouldn't be then to be able
to like pull back and go, like,okay, well, what is the actual
real life exchange?
Right, you know what is theappropriate like point of
interface between me and thisperson, given that?
So, for example, if you go to aconcert and you meet your
(24:50):
favorite band, you know, and youget an autograph of being able
to be like that was a cool,casual, short-term interaction
I'm gonna hold with me for therest of my life.
But that doesn't mean like, andthis person is my best friend
now and I should get aninvitation to their wedding, or,
if I'm in financial trouble,like they should pay my bills,
(25:13):
you know, or things like that orhave the right to critique what
they do in their lives or theirpartners.
Because, like I think, with you,me being a music fan, how many
examples not just music,honestly, but even in acting of
like there have been fan basesthat, let's say, your favorite
actor or musician gets a partner, and there will be people who
(25:37):
as almost as if they werefriends yes, you know, just
saying like, I don't think thatthey're right for you.
And it's like, even with someexamples where it's like, okay,
yeah, this person has said, done, some things are really
upsetting.
Do is it appropriate for fansto be like we are going to make
petitions and right, you know,or or like dedicate opinion
(26:01):
pieces to say like you shouldn'tdate this person.
It's like no, that's a personalchoice.
And again, like that's crossinga line because you are not
directly involved in thatperson's life and you don't have
that kind of relationship whereyou have the right to say like
you shouldn't date this person.
And because we are your fans oryour followers or consumers,
(26:25):
then we are going to try to putpressure on you and yeah, yeah,
I mean, I've seen that so manytimes.
April Snow (26:34):
People do, they get attached, they maybe feel
protective or feel a sense ofaccess.
That is a little extreme.
Yeah, I remember access.
That is a little extreme, yeah,I remember.
So Trevor Hall is one of myfavorite musicians and I
(26:54):
remember seeing him when heyears ago, when he was just
playing in like small littlemusic shops, and I remember when
he started dating his wife andpeople were not everybody, but
some people were not happy aboutthat.
He was not going to be singleanymore, and you see this all
the time.
I see it in the queer communitytoo.
If, like, there's someone who'sbi or pansexual and they're
dating a woman but then theydate a man and then there's some
(27:15):
anger and emotion that getsbrought up.
There's just so many examplesof this right, where there's
that possessiveness or feelinglike you have a say over
someone's choices, it can bereally dangerous.
Dr. Lana Holmes (27:27):
Right, or how people can feel let down or feel
like my identity is contingentupon you making these certain
choices in your personal life,and it's like you are who you
are Like that's.
The other thing to consider islike, whoever you are, however
you identify, it's not going tochange just because this person
(27:49):
that you idolized may all of asudden make a decision that
contradicts your own personalidentity.
And so, yeah, when people arekind of like this and I've also
even seen it with fictitiouscharacters, I'm sure that you
followed up like how there havebeen like different literary
characters, some of them who'vebeen around for centuries, even
(28:10):
longer, where folks willspeculate about like well,
really, this is the identity ofthis person and you can tell
from all of these context clues.
And sometimes it's true,sometimes, like, given the
particular time period, thatcertain authors wrote characters
, they had to be very judiciousabout how they wrote them
(28:34):
because you know it wouldn'thave been published and there
would have been a huge backlashfor sure, however, the issue,
absolutely, but there are alsosome times where, you know,
there have been a number ofauthors that have been very
clear about like, their decisionmaking of like.
This is who this character isinspired by, this is who they're
(28:54):
supposed to be.
This is like my kind of sketchof their like, identity and
their choices, and there will bepeople who, even knowing that,
will be like no, no, no, no, no.
I know better than this authorabout like, who this person
really is, and there will beagain that possessiveness of
like.
This character has to be likeme.
This character has to representthis community, or else and
(29:17):
it's like can't you still lovethis character and get
inspiration from them, even ifthey're not like you?
April Snow (29:25):
yeah, exactly right, you get to still them, even if
they're not like you.
Yeah, exactly Right, you get tostill be yourself, even if this
character is different than youoriginally expected.
And I understand you knowthere's great disappointment.
That can happen and, as an HSP,I felt that disappointment,
whether someone I realized wasunethical, or I realized, maybe,
oh, they're actually not queerI really wanted them to be, or
(29:45):
it was unethical, or I realizedmaybe, oh, they're actually not
queer, I really wanted them tobe, because we need more queer
representation and there's alittle bit of heartbreak, right.
However, it's important to keepthat perspective in mind, of
it's okay.
Dr. Lana Holmes (29:57):
Right, it's okay, and I think, even though
for any of us that belong tomarginalized, oppressed and
stigmatized community becauseI'm know, I'm Black and I'm
bisexual and I'm- a woman youknow is, even though, yes, there
are always going to beprivileged or dominant groups
that, like you will frequentlysee represented in media or even
like kind of being lauded aspublic figures, there are still
(30:21):
people where you know, like Iknow, this character is me.
They were designed to representthis community that you could go
to, so that's another hack ofif you're like I wanted this
particular character to be justlike me because I just love them
so much, is it's like, well,are there characters that you
already know from the jump, likecome from your community, that
(30:44):
you could identify with from theget-go to get that need met,
instead of saying like, no, thischaracter, it has to be this
way, because I can think of justthinking about books, like
there are a number of charactersfrom different genres that are
now, you know, coming from mycommunities that I can look at
(31:04):
and go like, oh yeah, like Ialready know, because, trust me,
I understand there have beentimes in the past where I would
like kind of have that like, ohman, like it would be great to
see, like a black woman in thisbook and you know, doing these
kind of cool things.
But they're not there and youknow.
(31:25):
But at the same time, it's likenow, as an adult, like I can
find a lot of that literatureacross different genres where
it's like, oh, it's just here,like this is great, and I can
still love that other stuff forwhat it is yeah, right, it's
just having to look, maybe alittle longer, a little harder
for the characters that dorepresent you yeah yeah, but
(31:46):
yeah, we always.
April Snow (31:47):
I mean, I always wish like there's never enough
lesbian movies or shows, and soI'm always looking for that.
Dr. Lana Holmes (31:54):
I'm like, oh, can I just please have some more
, yeah, and I think sometimesthe feeling is like why isn't it
readily available?
Because I think, because whenyou, even when you're saying
that, like why aren't thereenough lesbian you know books or
shows, it's like I can think ofyou know, certain movies or
(32:14):
things that I grew up with, like, particularly I was a big, I've
always been a big lover ofindependent film and
particularly there was this kindof renaissance of independent
queer cinema.
I think it was like officiallycalled like the new queer cinema
in the early 90s that you knowkind of rippled out.
(32:35):
And so, even though, yes, likeit would be great for us to
catch up to the point where it'slike, oh, you know, know, it's
like happening at the samefrequency as like straight
characters at the same time,it's like it's not as if it
absolutely doesn't it's true,exist.
April Snow (32:54):
You're absolutely right, because there will be
times where I stumble uponsomething oh how did I not know
this existed, right, and so it'slike it's out there.
But you're right, it's not asout in front.
I have to do a little bit ofdigging, a little research, yeah
, which thankfully is not thathard these days.
Right, yeah, upon google orreddit or wherever you find your
(33:16):
information.
Dr. Lana Holmes (33:17):
Yeah, yeah, it's there yeah, or even if
there's a certain database.
So, like you know let's say youhave a streaming service of see
if you can use some of thosesearch tools to find the kind of
films or television shows thatlike feature, the kind of
characters that you're lookingfor, so that you can be able to
find that.
(33:38):
So it's just like.
I think it's just more aboutlike reframing it right instead
of just being like I have tolike whatever I get, like it has
to present me, or I have tokind of make it fit.
All of my needs is being ableto go like okay, well, is there
stuff out there like that?
I haven't even considered thatsearching for that I could get
(33:59):
that already was designed for meyou know?
April Snow (34:02):
yeah, exactly yeah.
So it sounds like doing alittle bit of research and
reflection.
Also, I hear an underlyingmessage today is diversify with
where you're connecting with.
Dr. Lana Holmes (34:15):
You know what you're attaching to a mixture of
in real life and parasocial,not just putting all your eggs
in one basket yeah, no, no,because I mean, even though,
like, I think also there's asense of like, positive emotions
that can be derived fromparasocial relationships.
I think also it's important tounderstand of like you need
(34:40):
people in your life to be ableto, like, give you love and
support and show up for you, andI think if there's this kind of
reliance on like I will, I feellike I can only get that of
being able to, you know, branchout and, in fact, like I would
say, like my key take-homemessage for people is parasocial
(35:04):
relationships are common.
They can help us betterunderstand our emotional,
interpersonal needs.
Still, you know, for long-term,comprehensive social and
emotional fulfillment, it'simportant to have supportive,
real life relationships and ifthat's a struggle, it's
important to get the help thatyou need to find that which can
(35:26):
come from a licensed mentalhealth professional, for example
.
How we communicate with eachother, meet with each other,
(35:47):
it's often taken for grantedthat people have the kind of
ability, skills and resourcesjust to like form relationships
or that, like already peoplecame into the world with a
baseline of healthy support andthere are so many people, as I'm
sure you can relate, who didn'thave that, and I mean there are
lots of people.
I think, whenever there's somekind of controversy that erupts
around a public figure, wherethere's so many people who are
(36:09):
like this was like I didn't havelike a healthy parental figure
in my life, so this person, youknow, kind of became that
surrogate for me.
Or you know, I had strugglesmaking friends growing up, so
like I was able to take comfortin this cast of characters that
became like friends for me.
So I think it's important tohave that kind of care and
(36:30):
compassion for people that,instead of just kind of
castigating them and saying, oh,like, why would you do that?
That's so just gross of beingable to go like, yeah, well,
what, how are people not showingup in your life?
Because, also, even when itcomes to the number of people
that I've worked with when itcomes to trauma, there are a
(36:52):
number of people who are like,people are scary and they're
just like the idea of having aclose relationship to someone is
horrifying, because what if Iget brutalized again, exactly,
and so I think it's important tothink about that of like.
Has there been something that'shappened that has made reliable,
(37:13):
trustworthy, healthy supporthard to find?
And if that is the case, ifthat's why parasocial
relationships seem so appealing,how can we help you to like,
get these really like strong,reciprocal, affirming
relationships in your life?
You know and I think that's abroader question, not only on an
(37:34):
individual level, but I thinkabout how can we have the kind
of social infrastructure in oursocieties again that make that
more possible?
Because I think you know, we'veheard the news about the
loneliness crisis and about howpeople, particularly in
adulthood, are like how do Imake friends, you know?
And so I think it's a broaderquestion where it's like how can
(37:56):
we connect to each other againas people in real life?
April Snow (37:59):
Exactly.
People are hungry for aconnection, and this uptick in
parasocial relationships, or theintensity of it, is a byproduct
of that, and so parasocialrelationships can tell you not
just what you're looking for inreal life, but what maybe you're
not looking for right.
Tells you a lot about howcomfortable, safe you feel in
relationship and maybe is a clueto what you've been through in
(38:21):
the past.
So I'm hearing to have lots ofcompassion for maybe, the people
in your life who have strongparasocial relationships, but
also for yourself.
Dr. Lana Holmes (38:31):
Yeah, for yourself, because I think there
can be the assumption thatpeople you know just have
everything that they need andthat they just willfully are not
accessing it.
Now, is that the case?
Sometimes, yes, but I thinkwhen I think about you know,
(38:51):
whether it be personal lifeexperiences or you know, any of
the clinical cases that I'veworked with there are so many
people who are like I came intothe world without the tools and
resources that I would need toaccomplish this and there was
nobody that taught me how to dothis, so I had to make do with
what was available and howpainful it can be when people
(39:15):
are like but you didn't knowthat, you didn't know how to do
that, you didn't know that thatwas wrong, and it's like no, I
didn't, and no one came in withsolutions.
No one came in with guidance oreven alternatives.
It was just like don't do this.
But then it's like what do Ihave?
Right, right.
April Snow (39:33):
What goes in its place, Right.
So if people are realizing, oh,something might be missing or
I'm struggling with connection,yeah.
Getting support from atherapist right.
Dr. Lana Holmes (39:45):
Spending time in community yeah yeah, yeah,
but yeah, and that's definitelylike the on the more personal
scale of things.
But I think a longer termquestion and pursuit is like
I've kind of had daydreams oflike what would it be like for a
licensed mental healthprofessional sociologists,
anthropologists like to cometogether and be like yeah, how
(40:07):
can we create these kind ofspaces that would naturally
allow people to form andmaintain relationships?
Because I think we were talkingbefore we got recording, about,
like we are both ladies of acertain age and so we, I think,
are part of certain generationof people or multiple
(40:29):
generations of people really whoremember what it was like,
where it's like you had nochoice but to be face to face
with people and how there weremultiple opportunities to
connect with folks.
And now a lot of those thingshave kind of gradually
deteriorated to the point whereyou can't just easily be like
yeah, you know, there are allthese different places where I
can meet people and strike upconversations and find
(40:53):
commonalities and, you know, beable to build relationships from
there.
There are lots of people whoare like I don't have that, it's
not readily available in myarea or I didn't grow up in that
world, so that feels moreforeign and distant than trying
to connect with people throughdigital means or through media.
April Snow (41:14):
Yeah, exactly, a lot of those public spaces or
points of connection havedissolved.
And you're right, there aresome folks who are younger than
us who never have lived withthat experience, so maybe don't
even know where to start.
Dr. Lana Holmes (41:27):
Yeah, no, and so, basically, I guess what I'm
saying is like I don't know, andI think it's important for all
of us to try to figure out whatare the solutions that we can
implement, not only on a moreindividual, personal scale, but
like how can you know?
Like I said, people in all thefields I previously mentioned be
(41:50):
able to go like, yeah, how canwe find, like in real life, low
tech or or no-tech ways ofconnecting people?
April Snow (41:58):
Yeah, exactly Right.
This is a bigger systemic issueof how our communities, our
culture is set up.
It's so overly digital now?
Dr. Lana Holmes (42:11):
Yeah, no, and I mean I've seen some people make
predictions which I can seethis happening of almost there
being a countercultural movementtowards people going like yeah,
let me actually devote moretime to meeting people in real
life and being able to connectand socialize without, you know,
(42:33):
any digital devices or digitalthings to do.
And I mean there already havebeen examples of that, like I
heard about the Luddite Club,which was started at a Brooklyn
high school and now severalchapters across the US at
different high schools, and Ithink there are like one or two
undergraduate universitychapters of it as well, and so
that's a really great example ofpeople going like well, how can
(42:55):
we do this, likeconscientiously, create this
experience?
And you know so far the kind offirsthand accounts of people
who completed it, and the youngpeople who completed said they
were like oh, this is incredible.
Yeah, this is such a greatexperience and it's really
relatively simple.
You know, like it's not like ohwell, this is going to be very
(43:17):
expensive or time consuming.
It's just more about makingthese little tweaks and finding
alternatives.
April Snow (43:24):
Yeah, I'm seeing that pop up around me as well.
Just people gathering at a cafeor on the beach and just
reading together or justspending time together.
No phones, devices, you knowpeople are really looking for
that it's.
We were talking about kind ofthe nostalgia of the 90s before
we hopped on and yeah, I thinkyou were implying this too, like
(43:45):
part of that is that drawl ofliving in a time without
constantly being in front of ascreen.
Dr. Lana Holmes (43:52):
Yeah, no connection and still being able
to get things done the way thatyou need to, because I think
whenever there's a hugetechnological leap, it's almost
hard to think about what lifewas before it or how you did
things.
But it's like we did it.
People were able to do all thethings that we heavily rely on
technology to do now.
Before without it, four withoutit, and there were again so
(44:21):
many places and spaces forpeople to be able to connect and
that you didn't have to beconstantly aware of every single
thing that was happening in theworld at every moment and you
still were well informed, youknow so right, exactly, yeah,
now we're kind of hyper informed, hyper tapped in it's.
April Snow (44:36):
It's like you don't need that to build relationships
and connections.
No, no, yeah.
Well, lana, we're just aboutout of time, so I just want to
thank you for everything thatyou shared today.
It's been really eye-openingfor me to look a little bit
deeper into this.
I don't know if that's theright word, but just this
(45:03):
presence of parasocialrelationships and what it means
about how we're living as humanstoday.
Yeah, I appreciate you comingback on and diving into this
topic with me.
It's an even more personal onethat I realized and something I
want you to think about, andI'll be sure to link all of your
resources, your website, yourcontact information for folks.
You have some continuingeducation resources.
I'm wondering if you could tellfolks a little bit about
working with you if they'reinterested.
Dr. Lana Holmes (45:21):
Yes, so I am a licensed clinical psychologist.
I'm licensed both in the stateof Georgia, but also I have
SIPAC licensure to see peoplewho are in all SIPAC member
states and primarily my workrevolves around doing both
individual and couple slashrelationship therapy.
Also, I have a kink andclinical practice 101 continuing
(45:42):
education course.
That is a beginner's levelcourse designed for licensed
mental health practitioners thatare interested in working with
folks who are involved in thekink and BDSM communities but
they don't know what to do.
They maybe feel kind of lost inthe sauce about how to work
(46:02):
with people in these populations.
So I have that available as aself-paced course on the website
for the Touchstone Instituteand yeah, and so like, yeah, if
people are interested in signingup for that, there's the link.
And then if people areinterested in working with me
for individual or couple slashrelationship teletherapy, I also
have the link to my practiceswebsite.
April Snow (46:22):
Beautiful.
Yeah, all those links will bein the show notes for folks.
Thanks so much for joining meand Lana for today's
conversation.
What I hope you'll take away isthat deeply connecting with
your favorite musicians, actors,authors, public figures or
(46:42):
fictional characters can be ahelpful way to understand more
about yourself and the types ofrelationships that you want to
build in your real life, andalso perhaps lead to connections
with other people who shareyour interests.
If you're interested in workingwith Dr Lana, go to
inclusivetherapywellnesscom.
Slash Lana L-A-N-A or head tothe show notes for more
(47:05):
resources.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSB resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist.
Recommendations, reviews andratings are also helpful and
appreciated for behind thescenes content and more hsp
resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow sensitive
strengths on instagram, tiktokand youtube.
(47:25):
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
We often overestimate the amount of
social support that people havehad in their lives or really
healthy human connection, andone of the positive things about
parasocial relationships is theidea that you can have a
positive role model, because Ican think of so many people who
(00:20):
have had that experience, wherethey're like I didn't know
anybody who had my life story ormy experience and I saw this
person who is a public figureand who's successful being who
they are and it made me feellike maybe I could make it or
maybe my life had meaning andpurpose and I wasn't doomed to
be whatever negative thingspeople told me.
April Snow (00:53):
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the
people who live with hearts andeyes wide open.
I'm your host, psychotherapistand author, april Snow.
I invite you to join me as Ideep dive into rich
conversations with fellow highlysensitive people that will
inspire you to live a morefulfilling life as an HSP
without all the overwhelm.
In this episode, I talk with DrLana Holmes about the impact of
(01:15):
parasocial relationships withyour favorite fictional
characters and public figures,such as musicians or actors, who
serve as your role models,provide a sense of belonging or
build self-esteem.
We also look at the sciencethat these attachments are
getting in the way of yourreal-life connections and what
to do about that.
Lana is a licensed clinicalpsychologist at the Center for
(01:36):
Inclusive Therapy and Wellness.
She's passionate aboutproviding therapy that welcomes
and celebrates marginalized,oppressed and stigmatized
communities.
Her areas of clinical interestand expertise include the
intersection between mentalhealth and spirituality, issues
pertaining to BDSM, kink andethical non-monogamy, issues
pertaining to BIPOC andLGBTQIA2S, plus folks trauma
(01:59):
across the lifespan, lifetransitions, anxiety and
depression.
She currently has openings forindividual and couples therapy
online.
For more HSP resources and tosee behind the scenes video from
the podcast, join me onInstagram, tiktok or YouTube at
Sensitive Strengths or sign upfor my email list.
Links are in the show notes andat sensitivestoriescom.
(02:22):
And just a reminder that thisepisode is for educational
purposes only and is notintended as a substitute for
treatment with a mental healthor medical professional.
Let's dive in.
So welcome Lana.
(02:53):
I am so excited to have youback on the podcast.
Dr. Lana Holmes (02:56):
Hey, it's a pleasure to be back April.
Thank you for having me.
April Snow (02:59):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Listeners might remember youfrom episode 47, where you
talked about honoring yourthresholds as a Black HSP.
A lot of folks love thatconversation, but we're going in
a little bit of a differentdirection today, talking about
the HSP experience of parasocialrelationships.
So I'm wondering if you couldshare with listeners a little
(03:19):
bit about how we came about thisconversation today.
Dr. Lana Holmes (03:22):
Yes, thank you.
Yeah, so actually it startedfrom the last time that I was on
the podcast, because I rememberlooking at, I think, some of
your blog posts and newsletterswhere you were sharing how much
of a music fan that you were,and I can definitely relate to
that.
I'm a huge music fan and I thinkafter the last podcast episode
recording, we were talking aboutkind of that experience of
(03:45):
being a music fan and findingout that your favorite artist or
band has been accused ofsomething egregious and how,
within these different fancommunities, there could be a
discussion about, like, how todeal with it, but also people's
thoughts and feelings about it,and often, as I'm sure you know,
viewers and audience memberscan relate to is one of the
things people say.
As I'm sure you know viewersand audience members can relate
(04:05):
to, is one of the things peoplesay is like oh, you know, just
enjoy the music, like, don'tthink about what this person has
done, and it's like well, butthis like lives inside of me,
like this music and everythingthat means for my life.
It is a part of me, it's a partof so many memories that I've
formed and experiences I've hadthat it's a painful experience
(04:26):
to just extricate it, but thenalso like, how do I ethically,
morally, like face theseaccusations as a consumer?
April Snow (04:37):
exactly because you're right, it's in our DNA.
I mean, when I listen to oldCDs that I've kind of pulled out
of the archives of my storageunit or my back shed, it's like
oh, these are so wrapped up inmy memories, so when something
does come up, that's problematicand we'll get into that a
little bit more in a bit.
(04:58):
It's pretty heartbreaking,right.
It's like disorienting.
What do I do with this, right?
So, before we jump too far in,just for folks who may have not
heard this term parasocialrelationship because this is one
I only learned maybe a year ortwo ago Could you define it for
us before we go any further?
Dr. Lana Holmes (05:15):
Yeah, of social interaction dates back to a
peer-reviewed journal articlethat was co-written by Donald
Horton and R Richard Wohl orthat's my German pronunciation,
but it's probably Americanizedas Wohl in 1956.
And so, basically, a pair ofsocial interaction denotes
(05:38):
exposure to a public figure oreven a fictitious character that
elicits a socio-emotionalconnection from a viewer,
fictitious character thatelicits a socio-emotional
connection from a viewer, fan,follower or consumer.
Now, after repeated parasocialinteractions, a parasocial
relationship is formed in whichthe public figure or fictitious
character is regarded in a waysimilar to a loved one, with
(05:58):
deep emotional intimacy andpersonal identification.
But here's the rub, it'sone-sided.
And personal identification,but here's the rub, it's
one-sided.
so like, obviously, if it's afictitious character, that like
it just doesn't exist at all,but like if it is a real life
person who either their work islike themselves or their work is
(06:19):
related to, you know, creatingmusic or acting or et cetera is
that person doesn't know aboutthe emotional, psychological
connection that a fan or aviewer is making with them, even
if they're aware of it just asa general point of consciousness
.
It's not reciprocated, it's notlike oh yeah, I'm calling you
(06:40):
all the time or hanging out, I'mdeeply involved in your life.
April Snow (06:46):
Right, that's such a good point that it's at the
level of a loved one, so it's sodeeply emotionally entangled
for us as the I don't know thefan or the follower.
But right, the other person hasno idea.
Dr. Lana Holmes (07:03):
I mean, this seems kind of dangerous
emotionally speaking it can.
And I mean this is tricky.
I think one of the things thatI try to do when I talk about or
even think about parasocialrelationships is it's common,
because I think sometimes therecan be this like
self-righteousness when peopletalk about like oh my gosh,
that's like so stupid and weirdand like why would anybody do
that?
But I think everyone to somedegree, even if you're not
(07:28):
consciously aware of it, hasmade that kind of connection at
some point in their life.
I mean, think about when wewere kids.
I think a lot of us very easilylatched on to people on our
favorite kids' TV shows in avery deeply emotional way and
then you know we probably canrecall those conversations with
parents or teachers being likewell, you know, barney isn't
real sweetie.
April Snow (07:48):
You know like.
Dr. Lana Holmes (07:51):
Barney is not coming to your birthday party
and is not going to.
You know, be your best friend.
But even as we go through otherstages of development, there
can be those deep emotionalconnections and so it is quite
commonplace.
But I think it has more to dowith recognizing it and the
degree to which we engage inthat and the impact that has on
(08:15):
us.
April Snow (08:16):
Yeah, so what you're helping me realize is that
there are probably levels ofattachment.
Right, and some can be reallycasual and maybe some go as far
as being, you know, overlyenmeshed and a tie in.
It's funny when you said beingkids.
I remember being two years oldand my favorite show was Lassie
and I was so attached that Iwould get really upset about
(08:38):
taking a nap because I was soafraid of missing the show,
because I loved it so much andthat was my first parasocial
relationship.
Right now, now that I'mrealizing it and it's gone on
and you know, on throughout mylife, yeah, and I can imagine
HSPs particularly maybe beingmore likely to deeply attach.
Given our emotionalexpansiveness, responsiveness,
(09:02):
you know we tend to go deep inour interests and attachments.
Can we talk a little bit aboutthat, how an HSP might
experience these relationships?
Dr. Lana Holmes (09:13):
Yeah, no.
So it's interesting because, atleast for me, when I was
looking at available peerreviewed journal articles and
research on this, there hasn'tbeen anything that I've seen as
of today's recording thatspecifically focuses on.
HSPs and parasocialrelationships or parasocial
interactions.
However, like you were stating,one of the things I was like
(09:34):
well, because it's such anemotionally and psychologically
driven phenomenon, that orphenomenon, excuse me is the
fact that, like hsps, we areemotionally expansive people,
very emotionally attuned,empathic that there could be a
particular vulnerability for usof just kind of like
(09:55):
automatically, kind of becominglike really enveloped in the
parasocial paradigm yeah, it'strue, I was sharing with you
earlier how I've started torealize all the different types
of parasocial relationships Ihave personally and not really
realizing it before because itjust has seemed pretty natural.
April Snow (10:14):
And a big one is a musician which we share that
love for music and one of myfavorite musicians is Brandi
Carlile.
And I've noticed throughout mylife I've had my favorite
musician.
That's been like the number onespot.
It shifts as I shift.
But I've been watching clips onYouTube of clips of old
concerts and just seeing theprogression of her career and
(10:36):
realizing like I feel proud ofher.
It's so funny Like a sister,like a sister Because I've seen
her go from.
We have kind of similarities inour backgrounds where she grew
up very poor with an alcoholicfather and has had to really
fight to progress in her lifeand I'm like, oh, I can really
relate to that.
(10:57):
So I think it makes me moresusceptible to attaching and I'm
like, oh, look, she's doing sogreat and she's getting more
notoriety and and I justappreciate how she lifts people
up along the way in that and Ithink there's like a values
connection as well.
So I'm just as I was thinkingabout our conversation, I was
like oh, this is really layeredfor me.
Dr. Lana Holmes (11:19):
It is, and I think thinking about the layers
of degrees.
Typically, if people envisionyou know someone who's involved
in a parasocial relationship,they think about the most
extreme case, which you know issomeone who's like, obsessed or
will frequently cross boundarieswith the object of the
parasocial relationship.
(11:39):
But for a lot of people it'sabout I can relate to you and I
think this is one of the reasonsagain, I approach this with
sensitivity, because I think weoften overestimate the amount of
social support that people havehad in their lives or really
(11:59):
healthy human connection.
And one of the positive thingsabout parasocial relationships
is the idea that you can have apositive role model, someone
that you relate to and you'relike, because I can think of so
many people who have had thatexperience where they're like.
I didn't know anybody who had mylife story, my experience, and
I saw this person who is apublic figure and who's
(12:22):
successful, being who they areand it made me feel like maybe I
could make it or maybe my lifehad meaning and purpose and I
wasn't doomed to be whatevernegative things people told me.
And also I mean you even thinkabout certain groups that
particularly think aboutmarginalized, oppressed and
stigmatized groups.
There are certain publicfigures where it's been this
like point of pride and esteemthat, like, this person is
(12:47):
succeeding and doing incrediblethings, which is a positive
representation of our community.
So, you know, that's like thoseare actually like not only
natural things that help usconnect to any fellow human
being, but also it's one of thepositive things, things about
that of people being able to say, oh, there are other folks out
(13:07):
there that I can relate to andit can be a source of
inspiration that can motivatepeople to make their own
accomplishments the layers ofthe parasocial relationship, or
sometimes it is a role model.
April Snow (13:23):
It's maybe some twinship, where you see yourself
reflected in another person andit's inspirational, it's
hopeful and those are incrediblypositive right, and maybe it
gives you something to keepmoving forward.
Mm-hmm, and I know there's alsoa downside, maybe a dark side.
Something I've seen for myselfis musicians I've grown up
(13:46):
loving.
Recently I've realized, oh,they have problematic politics
or there's been egregious actsthey've committed or some
controversy and I can'tethically support those
musicians anymore.
So can we talk a little bitabout the downsides?
We hinted at it already, butlet's go into that more.
What are the downsides offorming these attachments with
(14:07):
either fictional characters ormusicians or public figures?
Dr. Lana Holmes (14:11):
Yeah, no, definitely.
I think one of the things is,you know it can be people can
have a dependency on theparasocial relationship or the
parasocial, you know, publicfigure as a source of emotional
fulfillment, esteem or humanconnection.
Also, there can be an accurate,maladaptive understanding of
(14:32):
relationships.
So, specifically, relationshipsare characterized by, like the
willing act of participation ofboth parties and are reciprocal.
Like the willing act ofparticipation of both parties
and are reciprocal.
And so if people are just kindof like, oh, I'm idealizing this
person and the parasocialrelationship that, like
reforming it can kind of makepeople think like, oh well, you
know, this person just iseverything that I could ever
(14:55):
want and it's perfect, and it'skind of even within my control,
and that's how everyrelationship should be.
And it's like, and it's kind ofeven within my control, and
that's how every relationshipshould be, and it's like well,
no, like, people are alwaysgoing to have their own sense of
personal agency andrelationships are collaborative
and even really healthyrelationships are going to have
disagreements or conflict orpeople have different beliefs
(15:15):
and opinions, and so how can youwork through that instead of
being like you have to beeverything I could ever want or
need in a person, or else it'snot worth it.
April Snow (15:26):
It's really setting people up for failure in
relationships.
Dr. Lana Holmes (15:30):
Yeah, if it's not checked right, because I
think if you have thatself-awareness of like, this
person is a role model or aninspiration, but I know like
there is no interface between usthen you could kind of be like,
yeah, I'm looking for thosequalities and characteristics in
others, right, like.
But if it's kind of like no,you know, it always has to be
(15:50):
like this idealized version thatI've formed in my head.
That's when it can be reallyhard.
Also, you know, something thatcan be a risk too is placing
less effort in forming andmaintaining real life
relationships so kind of what wewere already talking about or
at least not prioritizing thoserelationships.
Also, another thing can bemaking the parasocial
(16:13):
relationship the center point ofone's identity or life or life,
and that can take a number offorms, like.
I've definitely seen examples ofpeople where it's like that is
who they are as a person, likethey love this public figure, or
like, and that's likeeverything that is.
(16:33):
But also I've seen exampleswhere people have devoted a lot
of money to their favoritepublic figure in a way where
it's like and I'm not justtalking about like a few things
here and there, or splurge, I'mtalking like repeatedly
dedicating a huge sum of moneyto their favorite public figure,
and sometimes people will actlike it's almost like pledging
(16:55):
fealty, you know where it's.
Like I must like, I have tolike show up for this person,
like anytime that they're like Ihave to like show up for this
person, like anytime thatthey're creating something I
have to, or going back to, likeif there's a public figure that
gets into trouble and has, youknow, any kind of allegations or
whatever lodged against them,there can be people who will.
(17:15):
I mean, I've heard stories ofpeople who took time off of work
, traveled across several statesor even to another country to
show their support to theirpublic figure.
And I'm like, oh, and there arepeople who are just like it's
like the sense of mission andone of the things I'll have is
I'm like, well, if there wassomebody in your family or your
(17:36):
friend group or community oreven in your place of work that
like needed that level ofsupport, you be like, yeah, I'm
dropping everything and helpingthis person out.
And usually the answer is no,because there have been like
high profile cases where it'sbeen pointed out like hey, you
know, this issue that thisperson is facing is a larger
scale issue that affects a lotof people who maybe don't have
(17:57):
the same kind of power andinfluence.
And may you know, if you reallyare concerned about it, like
maybe this could be anopportunity to get involved in
like this broader movement toaddress this issue.
And usually what will happen is, once it's resolved with, like
the public figure, people packup their stuff and go home.
April Snow (18:14):
What you said was interesting about how will you
show up for the people in yourlife?
The way you show up for thepeople in your life, the way you
show up for this person, youdon't know right, no and a
balance there there is such animbalance there and I think it's
an important point ofconsideration.
Dr. Lana Holmes (18:31):
I think the other kind of downside of
parasocial relationships, too,is, again, this is not common,
but it's when people crossinterpersonal boundaries, so
this can take the form of youknow, one of the examples I can
think of is like peoplebasically making inappropriate
(18:53):
communications or contact withtheir favorite public figure.
I can also think about and thishas happened a lot online in
particular like if there is afan base that loves a particular
public figure and somebodycriticizes that person or that
group or whatever.
There will be death threats orpeople who said, like you should
kill yourself.
(19:13):
It should never reach thatpoint of you know calling for
someone's death just becausethey don't like someone or they
have concerns about whatsomebody's saying or doing it
gets really extreme, yeah, andit becomes their whole
(19:33):
personality, really like.
April Snow (19:35):
This is my whole life is centering around this
person, this figure, this youknow, you know this character,
whatever it is yeah, that feelsreally dangerous.
Dr. Lana Holmes (19:45):
Yeah, it can feel really dangerous, but you
know, to balance it out in terms, of like some of the other
things we hadn't mentionedthat's on, you know, going back
to the positive sides is it canconnect people to other people.
So, again, like, one of thethings that's a concern is like,
like what's your in real lifesocial support network?
(20:07):
And there's been reallybeautiful stories of people who
said, like I was able to tapinto a subculture or into a fan
community of people where Iformed real life relationships
and, you know, felt a sense ofbelonging that wasn't just
focused on this particular pointof interest, but also abandoned
and other things you know, andso that it can kind of, in the
(20:30):
more healthy, adaptive side ofthings, be a bridge for people
to connect to other people wherethey're like well, this is
something we all have in commonand we all like, and so this can
break the ice and like help meto reach out to other people,
you know.
April Snow (20:43):
Right, it's a point of shared connection.
So the parasocial relationshipcould then be a pathway to in
real life connections andattachments.
So how do we find that balance?
How do we maybe start to detachfrom the public figure, set
some boundaries and then maybemove more into real life
connections?
Dr. Lana Holmes (21:04):
Yeah, so I think it really depends on the
person and on the amount ofsocial support in their life
right and their resources.
I think it's important torecognize that there's a
difference between being deeplymoved by somebody's work or by
(21:26):
you know their life story andversus becoming like a devotee
of them Right, so that there waslike that distinction and I
think what can be done is likeredirecting one's time and
energy to forming andmaintaining relationships in
real life.
So, for example, if there's anactor who played a character
(21:48):
that you admired for theircharisma or morality or
intelligence or kindness, youcan look for those traits in
people rather than just beinglike I just have to kind of
really like just focus on thisperson or this character as
being like the source of thosequalities, right?
April Snow (22:09):
That's really helpful to think about, because
there's a reason you're drawn tothis person or this character.
Right, it could be this actor,but in this specific role it's
like, yeah, what is it aboutthem?
What values do they have?
What traits do they have?
What experiences I love this.
Almost feels like a hack ofsorts, like a way to tap into
(22:30):
what you're looking for in yourrelationships.
Dr. Lana Holmes (22:32):
Right, yeah, and I mean it can be just like
kind of a impetus right for that, where you're like oh, you know
, I really want to find somebodywho is like that and again
realizing that like a characterwhether it's completely
fictitious, or like a characteryou read in a book or is being
portrayed in a film or atelevision show that you know
(22:57):
it's not going to be this likeidealized, perfectly formed
situation that you have completecontrol over, but you could go
like, yeah, you know it's notgoing to be this like idealized,
perfectly formed situation thatyou have complete control over,
but you could go like, yeah,you know, this is something for
me to hold on to as a positiveexample and that I can look for.
So I think there's that.
But I think also just going backto like basic interpersonal
skills and social skills andjust being like, well, realizing
(23:20):
that public figures are people,and I think sometimes, with the
way that we've all beenconditioned around fame and
celebrity and people who dopublic facing work is there's
kind of been this idea of like,well, it's what they signed up
for.
But I feel like over the pastcouple of decades, public
figures have been moretransparent over the fact that
they're like I didn't sign upfor this.
(23:42):
I didn't sign for my privacy tobe invaded or for people to be
rude to me or for people to dothings that are really scary and
upsetting, and so I think it'simportant for people not just to
make assumptions that, oh well,because you're doing public
facing work, that means that Iam entitled to do and say
whatever I want to you and youjust have to accept it.
Because I've also seen somelanguage where people who have
(24:05):
kind of been like well, if Ihave paid money for your work or
your services, then I can dowhatever I want and it's like
you owe me, like it'stransactional, it's like well no
.
So I think it's always importantto think about like would you
do this with any human being?
right is this like healthy,appropriate, ethical, lawful
(24:27):
behavior to do to anybody?
And if you're like, well, no,it wouldn't be then to be able
to like pull back and go, like,okay, well, what is the actual
real life exchange?
Right, you know what is theappropriate like point of
interface between me and thisperson, given that?
So, for example, if you go to aconcert and you meet your
(24:50):
favorite band, you know, and youget an autograph of being able
to be like that was a cool,casual, short-term interaction
I'm gonna hold with me for therest of my life.
But that doesn't mean like, andthis person is my best friend
now and I should get aninvitation to their wedding, or,
if I'm in financial trouble,like they should pay my bills,
(25:13):
you know, or things like that orhave the right to critique what
they do in their lives or theirpartners.
Because, like I think, with you,me being a music fan, how many
examples not just music,honestly, but even in acting of
like there have been fan basesthat, let's say, your favorite
actor or musician gets a partner, and there will be people who
(25:37):
as almost as if they werefriends yes, you know, just
saying like, I don't think thatthey're right for you.
And it's like, even with someexamples where it's like, okay,
yeah, this person has said, done, some things are really
upsetting.
Do is it appropriate for fansto be like we are going to make
petitions and right, you know,or or like dedicate opinion
(26:01):
pieces to say like you shouldn'tdate this person.
It's like no, that's a personalchoice.
And again, like that's crossinga line because you are not
directly involved in thatperson's life and you don't have
that kind of relationship whereyou have the right to say like
you shouldn't date this person.
And because we are your fans oryour followers or consumers,
(26:25):
then we are going to try to putpressure on you and yeah, yeah,
I mean, I've seen that so manytimes.
April Snow (26:34):
People do, they get attached, they maybe feel
protective or feel a sense ofaccess.
That is a little extreme.
Yeah, I remember access.
That is a little extreme, yeah,I remember.
So Trevor Hall is one of myfavorite musicians and I
(26:54):
remember seeing him when heyears ago, when he was just
playing in like small littlemusic shops, and I remember when
he started dating his wife andpeople were not everybody, but
some people were not happy aboutthat.
He was not going to be singleanymore, and you see this all
the time.
I see it in the queer communitytoo.
If, like, there's someone who'sbi or pansexual and they're
dating a woman but then theydate a man and then there's some
(27:15):
anger and emotion that getsbrought up.
There's just so many examplesof this right, where there's
that possessiveness or feelinglike you have a say over
someone's choices, it can bereally dangerous.
Dr. Lana Holmes (27:27):
Right, or how people can feel let down or feel
like my identity is contingentupon you making these certain
choices in your personal life,and it's like you are who you
are Like that's.
The other thing to consider islike, whoever you are, however
you identify, it's not going tochange just because this person
(27:49):
that you idolized may all of asudden make a decision that
contradicts your own personalidentity.
And so, yeah, when people arekind of like this and I've also
even seen it with fictitiouscharacters, I'm sure that you
followed up like how there havebeen like different literary
characters, some of them who'vebeen around for centuries, even
(28:10):
longer, where folks willspeculate about like well,
really, this is the identity ofthis person and you can tell
from all of these context clues.
And sometimes it's true,sometimes, like, given the
particular time period, thatcertain authors wrote characters
, they had to be very judiciousabout how they wrote them
(28:34):
because you know it wouldn'thave been published and there
would have been a huge backlashfor sure, however, the issue,
absolutely, but there are alsosome times where, you know,
there have been a number ofauthors that have been very
clear about like, their decisionmaking of like.
This is who this character isinspired by, this is who they're
(28:54):
supposed to be.
This is like my kind of sketchof their like, identity and
their choices, and there will bepeople who, even knowing that,
will be like no, no, no, no, no.
I know better than this authorabout like, who this person
really is, and there will beagain that possessiveness of
like.
This character has to be likeme.
This character has to representthis community, or else and
(29:17):
it's like can't you still lovethis character and get
inspiration from them, even ifthey're not like you?
April Snow (29:25):
yeah, exactly right, you get to still them, even if
they're not like you.
Yeah, exactly Right, you get tostill be yourself, even if this
character is different than youoriginally expected.
And I understand you knowthere's great disappointment.
That can happen and, as an HSP,I felt that disappointment,
whether someone I realized wasunethical, or I realized, maybe,
oh, they're actually not queerI really wanted them to be, or
(29:45):
it was unethical, or I realizedmaybe, oh, they're actually not
queer, I really wanted them tobe, because we need more queer
representation and there's alittle bit of heartbreak, right.
However, it's important to keepthat perspective in mind, of
it's okay.
Dr. Lana Holmes (29:57):
Right, it's okay, and I think, even though
for any of us that belong tomarginalized, oppressed and
stigmatized community becauseI'm know, I'm Black and I'm
bisexual and I'm- a woman youknow is, even though, yes, there
are always going to beprivileged or dominant groups
that, like you will frequentlysee represented in media or even
like kind of being lauded aspublic figures, there are still
(30:21):
people where you know, like Iknow, this character is me.
They were designed to representthis community that you could go
to, so that's another hack ofif you're like I wanted this
particular character to be justlike me because I just love them
so much, is it's like, well,are there characters that you
already know from the jump, likecome from your community, that
(30:44):
you could identify with from theget-go to get that need met,
instead of saying like, no, thischaracter, it has to be this
way, because I can think of justthinking about books, like
there are a number of charactersfrom different genres that are
now, you know, coming from mycommunities that I can look at
(31:04):
and go like, oh yeah, like Ialready know, because, trust me,
I understand there have beentimes in the past where I would
like kind of have that like, ohman, like it would be great to
see, like a black woman in thisbook and you know, doing these
kind of cool things.
But they're not there and youknow.
(31:25):
But at the same time, it's likenow, as an adult, like I can
find a lot of that literatureacross different genres where
it's like, oh, it's just here,like this is great, and I can
still love that other stuff forwhat it is yeah, right, it's
just having to look, maybe alittle longer, a little harder
for the characters that dorepresent you yeah yeah, but
(31:46):
yeah, we always.
April Snow (31:47):
I mean, I always wish like there's never enough
lesbian movies or shows, and soI'm always looking for that.
Dr. Lana Holmes (31:54):
I'm like, oh, can I just please have some more
, yeah, and I think sometimesthe feeling is like why isn't it
readily available?
Because I think, because whenyou, even when you're saying
that, like why aren't thereenough lesbian you know books or
shows, it's like I can think ofyou know, certain movies or
(32:14):
things that I grew up with, like, particularly I was a big, I've
always been a big lover ofindependent film and
particularly there was this kindof renaissance of independent
queer cinema.
I think it was like officiallycalled like the new queer cinema
in the early 90s that you knowkind of rippled out.
(32:35):
And so, even though, yes, likeit would be great for us to
catch up to the point where it'slike, oh, you know, know, it's
like happening at the samefrequency as like straight
characters at the same time,it's like it's not as if it
absolutely doesn't it's true,exist.
April Snow (32:54):
You're absolutely right, because there will be
times where I stumble uponsomething oh how did I not know
this existed, right, and so it'slike it's out there.
But you're right, it's not asout in front.
I have to do a little bit ofdigging, a little research, yeah
, which thankfully is not thathard these days.
Right, yeah, upon google orreddit or wherever you find your
(33:16):
information.
Dr. Lana Holmes (33:17):
Yeah, yeah, it's there yeah, or even if
there's a certain database.
So, like you know let's say youhave a streaming service of see
if you can use some of thosesearch tools to find the kind of
films or television shows thatlike feature, the kind of
characters that you're lookingfor, so that you can be able to
find that.
(33:38):
So it's just like.
I think it's just more aboutlike reframing it right instead
of just being like I have tolike whatever I get, like it has
to present me, or I have tokind of make it fit.
All of my needs is being ableto go like okay, well, is there
stuff out there like that?
I haven't even considered thatsearching for that I could get
(33:59):
that already was designed for meyou know?
April Snow (34:02):
yeah, exactly yeah.
So it sounds like doing alittle bit of research and
reflection.
Also, I hear an underlyingmessage today is diversify with
where you're connecting with.
Dr. Lana Holmes (34:15):
You know what you're attaching to a mixture of
in real life and parasocial,not just putting all your eggs
in one basket yeah, no, no,because I mean, even though,
like, I think also there's asense of like, positive emotions
that can be derived fromparasocial relationships.
I think also it's important tounderstand of like you need
(34:40):
people in your life to be ableto, like, give you love and
support and show up for you, andI think if there's this kind of
reliance on like I will, I feellike I can only get that of
being able to, you know, branchout and, in fact, like I would
say, like my key take-homemessage for people is parasocial
(35:04):
relationships are common.
They can help us betterunderstand our emotional,
interpersonal needs.
Still, you know, for long-term,comprehensive social and
emotional fulfillment, it'simportant to have supportive,
real life relationships and ifthat's a struggle, it's
important to get the help thatyou need to find that which can
(35:26):
come from a licensed mentalhealth professional, for example
.
How we communicate with eachother, meet with each other,
(35:47):
it's often taken for grantedthat people have the kind of
ability, skills and resourcesjust to like form relationships
or that, like already peoplecame into the world with a
baseline of healthy support andthere are so many people, as I'm
sure you can relate, who didn'thave that, and I mean there are
lots of people.
I think, whenever there's somekind of controversy that erupts
around a public figure, wherethere's so many people who are
(36:09):
like this was like I didn't havelike a healthy parental figure
in my life, so this person, youknow, kind of became that
surrogate for me.
Or you know, I had strugglesmaking friends growing up, so
like I was able to take comfortin this cast of characters that
became like friends for me.
So I think it's important tohave that kind of care and
(36:30):
compassion for people that,instead of just kind of
castigating them and saying, oh,like, why would you do that?
That's so just gross of beingable to go like, yeah, well,
what, how are people not showingup in your life?
Because, also, even when itcomes to the number of people
that I've worked with when itcomes to trauma, there are a
(36:52):
number of people who are like,people are scary and they're
just like the idea of having aclose relationship to someone is
horrifying, because what if Iget brutalized again, exactly,
and so I think it's important tothink about that of like.
Has there been something that'shappened that has made reliable,
(37:13):
trustworthy, healthy supporthard to find?
And if that is the case, ifthat's why parasocial
relationships seem so appealing,how can we help you to like,
get these really like strong,reciprocal, affirming
relationships in your life?
You know and I think that's abroader question, not only on an
(37:34):
individual level, but I thinkabout how can we have the kind
of social infrastructure in oursocieties again that make that
more possible?
Because I think you know, we'veheard the news about the
loneliness crisis and about howpeople, particularly in
adulthood, are like how do Imake friends, you know?
And so I think it's a broaderquestion where it's like how can
(37:56):
we connect to each other againas people in real life?
April Snow (37:59):
Exactly.
People are hungry for aconnection, and this uptick in
parasocial relationships, or theintensity of it, is a byproduct
of that, and so parasocialrelationships can tell you not
just what you're looking for inreal life, but what maybe you're
not looking for right.
Tells you a lot about howcomfortable, safe you feel in
relationship and maybe is a clueto what you've been through in
(38:21):
the past.
So I'm hearing to have lots ofcompassion for maybe, the people
in your life who have strongparasocial relationships, but
also for yourself.
Dr. Lana Holmes (38:31):
Yeah, for yourself, because I think there
can be the assumption thatpeople you know just have
everything that they need andthat they just willfully are not
accessing it.
Now, is that the case?
Sometimes, yes, but I thinkwhen I think about you know,
(38:51):
whether it be personal lifeexperiences or you know, any of
the clinical cases that I'veworked with there are so many
people who are like I came intothe world without the tools and
resources that I would need toaccomplish this and there was
nobody that taught me how to dothis, so I had to make do with
what was available and howpainful it can be when people
(39:15):
are like but you didn't knowthat, you didn't know how to do
that, you didn't know that thatwas wrong, and it's like no, I
didn't, and no one came in withsolutions.
No one came in with guidance oreven alternatives.
It was just like don't do this.
But then it's like what do Ihave?
Right, right.
April Snow (39:33):
What goes in its place, Right.
So if people are realizing, oh,something might be missing or
I'm struggling with connection,yeah.
Getting support from atherapist right.
Dr. Lana Holmes (39:45):
Spending time in community yeah yeah, yeah,
but yeah, and that's definitelylike the on the more personal
scale of things.
But I think a longer termquestion and pursuit is like
I've kind of had daydreams oflike what would it be like for a
licensed mental healthprofessional sociologists,
anthropologists like to cometogether and be like yeah, how
(40:07):
can we create these kind ofspaces that would naturally
allow people to form andmaintain relationships?
Because I think we were talkingbefore we got recording, about,
like we are both ladies of acertain age and so we, I think,
are part of certain generationof people or multiple
(40:29):
generations of people really whoremember what it was like,
where it's like you had nochoice but to be face to face
with people and how there weremultiple opportunities to
connect with folks.
And now a lot of those thingshave kind of gradually
deteriorated to the point whereyou can't just easily be like
yeah, you know, there are allthese different places where I
can meet people and strike upconversations and find
(40:53):
commonalities and, you know, beable to build relationships from
there.
There are lots of people whoare like I don't have that, it's
not readily available in myarea or I didn't grow up in that
world, so that feels moreforeign and distant than trying
to connect with people throughdigital means or through media.
April Snow (41:14):
Yeah, exactly, a lot of those public spaces or
points of connection havedissolved.
And you're right, there aresome folks who are younger than
us who never have lived withthat experience, so maybe don't
even know where to start.
Dr. Lana Holmes (41:27):
Yeah, no, and so, basically, I guess what I'm
saying is like I don't know, andI think it's important for all
of us to try to figure out whatare the solutions that we can
implement, not only on a moreindividual, personal scale, but
like how can you know?
Like I said, people in all thefields I previously mentioned be
(41:50):
able to go like, yeah, how canwe find, like in real life, low
tech or or no-tech ways ofconnecting people?
April Snow (41:58):
Yeah, exactly Right.
This is a bigger systemic issueof how our communities, our
culture is set up.
It's so overly digital now?
Dr. Lana Holmes (42:11):
Yeah, no, and I mean I've seen some people make
predictions which I can seethis happening of almost there
being a countercultural movementtowards people going like yeah,
let me actually devote moretime to meeting people in real
life and being able to connectand socialize without, you know,
(42:33):
any digital devices or digitalthings to do.
And I mean there already havebeen examples of that, like I
heard about the Luddite Club,which was started at a Brooklyn
high school and now severalchapters across the US at
different high schools, and Ithink there are like one or two
undergraduate universitychapters of it as well, and so
that's a really great example ofpeople going like well, how can
(42:55):
we do this, likeconscientiously, create this
experience?
And you know so far the kind offirsthand accounts of people
who completed it, and the youngpeople who completed said they
were like oh, this is incredible.
Yeah, this is such a greatexperience and it's really
relatively simple.
You know, like it's not like ohwell, this is going to be very
(43:17):
expensive or time consuming.
It's just more about makingthese little tweaks and finding
alternatives.
April Snow (43:24):
Yeah, I'm seeing that pop up around me as well.
Just people gathering at a cafeor on the beach and just
reading together or justspending time together.
No phones, devices, you knowpeople are really looking for
that it's.
We were talking about kind ofthe nostalgia of the 90s before
we hopped on and yeah, I thinkyou were implying this too, like
(43:45):
part of that is that drawl ofliving in a time without
constantly being in front of ascreen.
Dr. Lana Holmes (43:52):
Yeah, no connection and still being able
to get things done the way thatyou need to, because I think
whenever there's a hugetechnological leap, it's almost
hard to think about what lifewas before it or how you did
things.
But it's like we did it.
People were able to do all thethings that we heavily rely on
technology to do now.
Before without it, four withoutit, and there were again so
(44:21):
many places and spaces forpeople to be able to connect and
that you didn't have to beconstantly aware of every single
thing that was happening in theworld at every moment and you
still were well informed, youknow so right, exactly, yeah,
now we're kind of hyper informed, hyper tapped in it's.
April Snow (44:36):
It's like you don't need that to build relationships
and connections.
No, no, yeah.
Well, lana, we're just aboutout of time, so I just want to
thank you for everything thatyou shared today.
It's been really eye-openingfor me to look a little bit
deeper into this.
I don't know if that's theright word, but just this
(45:03):
presence of parasocialrelationships and what it means
about how we're living as humanstoday.
Yeah, I appreciate you comingback on and diving into this
topic with me.
It's an even more personal onethat I realized and something I
want you to think about, andI'll be sure to link all of your
resources, your website, yourcontact information for folks.
You have some continuingeducation resources.
I'm wondering if you could tellfolks a little bit about
working with you if they'reinterested.
Dr. Lana Holmes (45:21):
Yes, so I am a licensed clinical psychologist.
I'm licensed both in the stateof Georgia, but also I have
SIPAC licensure to see peoplewho are in all SIPAC member
states and primarily my workrevolves around doing both
individual and couple slashrelationship therapy.
Also, I have a kink andclinical practice 101 continuing
(45:42):
education course.
That is a beginner's levelcourse designed for licensed
mental health practitioners thatare interested in working with
folks who are involved in thekink and BDSM communities but
they don't know what to do.
They maybe feel kind of lost inthe sauce about how to work
(46:02):
with people in these populations.
So I have that available as aself-paced course on the website
for the Touchstone Instituteand yeah, and so like, yeah, if
people are interested in signingup for that, there's the link.
And then if people areinterested in working with me
for individual or couple slashrelationship teletherapy, I also
have the link to my practiceswebsite.
April Snow (46:22):
Beautiful.
Yeah, all those links will bein the show notes for folks.
Thanks so much for joining meand Lana for today's
conversation.
What I hope you'll take away isthat deeply connecting with
your favorite musicians, actors,authors, public figures or
(46:42):
fictional characters can be ahelpful way to understand more
about yourself and the types ofrelationships that you want to
build in your real life, andalso perhaps lead to connections
with other people who shareyour interests.
If you're interested in workingwith Dr Lana, go to
inclusivetherapywellnesscom.
Slash Lana L-A-N-A or head tothe show notes for more
(47:05):
resources.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe to the Sensitive
Stories podcast so you don'tmiss our upcoming conversations.
Reviews and ratings are alsohelpful and appreciated For
behind-the-scenes content andmore HSB resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist.
Recommendations, reviews andratings are also helpful and
appreciated for behind thescenes content and more hsp
resources.
You can sign up for my emaillist or follow sensitive
strengths on instagram, tiktokand youtube.
(47:25):
Check out the show notes orsensitivestoriescom for all the
resources from today's episode.
Thanks for listening.
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