October 31, 2024 • 49 mins
Join us live from the Citizens Stage at the TCS New York City Marathon Expo, presented by New Balance, for this interview with the incomparable George Hirsch, one of the founders of the Five-Borough Marathon. No one can talk about the history of running like George. He has the best stories about how running has grown from a niche sport into a worldwide phenomenon, how Fred Lebow managed the start lines way back when, and about some of the superstars of world running in their youth. Also, he has the best running meet-cute you've ever heard. Join Rob and Becs as they present George with the Abebe Bikila Award in the first part of this two-part episode of Set the Pace.
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Speaker 3 (00:00):
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Audio (00:39):
Thank you New York. Today, we're reminded of the power
of community and the power of coming together. Athletes, on
your mark. The first woman to finish for the second straight year
here in the New York City Marathon is Miki Gorman, a smiling
Miki Gorman. And why not, 2
(01:03):
at the emotion of Shalane Flanagan as she comes to
the line. Pointing to his chest, pointing to the USA
he so proudly wears across his chest. A great day
for Matt Kapusky.
Rob Simmelkjaer (01:19):
Hey everybody, and welcome to a special edition of Set
the Pace presented by Peloton. It is the official podcast
of New York Road Runners. I'm your host and the
CEO of New York Road Runners Rob Simmelkjaer, and we
are thrilled to be live at the TCS New York
City Marathon Expo presented by New Balance. It's the first
(01:42):
day Thursday of the expo and the energy is already
off the hook. We've got people milling about all over
this place at the Jacob Javits Center in Manhattan. They're
picking up their bibs, they are doing some shopping at
the expo, they're buying their new balance gear. We got
a nice audience here in the citizen stage, so welcome
to everybody out there listening, and I'm also thrilled to
(02:04):
welcome as I have each and every week the pleasure
of co- hosting with the lovely Becs Gentry. Hello Rebbeca.
Rebbeca Gentry (02:11):
Hi. Hello, hello. Hi everyone. Thank you for joining us
today on this beautiful New York day.
Rob Simmelkjaer (02:17):
It really is, and it's always a thrill to actually
see you in person. We don't get to do this
that often.
Rebbeca Gentry (02:23):
I'm just a floating head on a screen.
Rob Simmelkjaer (02:24):
For those who don't know, Becs is training for something
called The World wait-
Rebbeca Gentry (02:30):
The Great World Race.
Rob Simmelkjaer (02:31):
The Great World Race. She's running seven marathons on seven
continents in seven days later on this month, and the
amount of training she's doing for this is unthinkable. Someone
asked if she was running the marathon. I said, " Well,
that would be like a start of a training one
for her if she ran the TCS New York City Marathon."
Rebbeca Gentry (02:52):
It would, but I have FOMO as well. I'm very
envious of all of you running, in my personal opinion,
the best race in the world. So I'm very, very
envious but I'll be out there cheering for every single person
for sure.
Rob Simmelkjaer (03:06):
Well, we've got a special day today because we're not
doing just one, but we're doing multiple podcasts today. We've
got such great guests that we decided to break it
up into two different episodes. First up in our first episode
today will be someone who is known to pretty much
everyone who knows New York Road Runners and the TCS
(03:28):
New York City Marathon, someone who was there at the
beginning of what this race was and obviously has seen
it become what it is this global event, New York
Road Runners Board Chair Emeritus George Hirsch. George is receiving
a really prestigious award today called the Abebe Bikila Award.
(03:49):
It's an award that's been presented since 1978 and it's
given to someone who's made an outstanding contribution to the sport
of distance running. George is truly an icon in the
running industry. He's championed this sport for more than five
decades. From 2004 to 2023, he was the chair of our board
(04:09):
at New York Road Runners. Now he's chair emeritus. And
so not only will we talk to George, but we
also have the honor of giving him the Abebe Bikila
Award on the show. So that's coming up in just
a second. Then just as a tease Becs, we're going
to do another show right here after a short break,
we're going to return with yet another icon of the
sport of running five- time Olympic medalist, three- time gold
(04:32):
medalist in Paris Gabby Thomas will join us here. She's
not only a storied Olympian, she's also the grand marshal
of this year's TCS New York City Marathon. So we're
going to hear all about Gabby's life since Paris where
she won those three gold medals. So stay tuned for
that. That'll drop right after our episode with George. But
(04:52):
let's start by honoring the one and only George Hirsch.
And George, it's great to have you here on Set
the Pace and it's such a privilege to be able
to give you this award today. Welcome.
George Hirsch (05:03):
Thank you, Rob. Just great to be here with you and Becs.
Rob Simmelkjaer (05:07):
Well, George, you know, but I'll tell our audience this
award, the Abebe Bikila Award is named after Abebe Bikila two-
time Olympic marathon champion from Ethiopia. The award is given
to individuals who've made an outstanding contribution to the sport
of distance running. A lot of professional athletes have won
this award over the years, but many others have as
(05:28):
well because it's really all about people who've made a
big impact in the sport, especially in New York, especially
to New York Road Runners. George, clearly you qualify as
one of those people and we were so thrilled to
see you elected to receive this award this year. For
more than five decades, George has dedicated his life to
(05:48):
elevating this sport. He was a co- founder of the
New York City Marathon, served as chair of course of
Road Runners for many years, and he also did it
as a publisher. His background is in media. He was
the publisher of Runner's World Magazine, a magazine that so
many people know and love. Is there something that really
chronicles the sport of running and really played a role
(06:09):
in helping it grow? And he was a pretty good
runner as well. He ran 40 marathons, that number's right,
40 marathons and his all- time PR was in his
forties. We'll get to that in a little while. But George,
you've just been such an incredible icon. I would not
(06:29):
be sitting in this chair where I am today. This
sport, this organization of New York Road Runners, and certainly
this event, the TCS New York City Marathon, would not
be what it is if it were not for your
incredible vision, your contributions, your steadfast dedication to the sport,
to this organization, and to this event. So it is
(06:52):
really our pleasure to present you with this award today. Becs,
will you do the honors?
Rebbeca Gentry (07:00):
I'm very honored to do this. So George, it's such a pleasure to meet you. I
cannot wait for our conversation, but congratulations.
Rob Simmelkjaer (07:04):
Let's get a big round of applause here in the
audience for George Hirsch, the recipient of this year's Abebe
Bikila Award and so well deserved. So George, congratulations.
George Hirsch (07:17):
Thank you so much Rob for your overly generous comments
and Becs, I will cherish this. Thank you so much.
Rob Simmelkjaer (07:27):
So George, let's start. I want to start with you
at the start of all of this. 1976, it was
probably earlier than that, when someone first came to you
with this idea of taking this marathon, which had been
(07:48):
run in laps around Central Park for several years and said, "
I got an idea. Let's take this thing outside the
park and let's have folks run all five boroughs of the
City of New York." When you first heard that idea,
first of all, who was the first person you heard
it from and what was your reaction?
George Hirsch (08:09):
The first person I heard it from was a genuine
New York character named George Spitz. And George, he had
what in the old days we used to call a
full Rolodex. He worked in the city hall and the
audit department, but he knew everyone and he was a
(08:32):
political gadfly. He wrote letters to the editors of newspapers
and he used to run for office. He never intended
to win, but he just wanted to run and make
a statement about some issue or another. And he was
the first person that I heard the idea from. And
(08:54):
Rob, I thought, " That's a big idea." And I wasn't
enthusiastic about it at all. I thought, " How are they
going to pull this off?" Closing down five boroughs, New
York City? I thought, " Oh, come on."
Rob Simmelkjaer (09:11):
And at what point did you actually start to think, "
Wait a second, this is a crazy idea, but maybe
this could actually happen." What was the first glimmer of
this possibly working?
George Hirsch (09:25):
That was when this gentleman, George Spitz was in touch
with a bunch of people, and one of them was
a local politician, very influential named Percy Sutton. He was
the Manhattan borough president. And Percy began to embrace the
(09:48):
idea and he thought this could work. And he went
to two prominent real estate developers in the city, very civic-
minded, Jack and Lew Rudin. And up until then, Fred
Lebow, who was then the president of the New York
(10:10):
Road Runners. He was like, " Come on, we can't do
something like this." I remember Fred saying, " This could cost
big money. This might cost $ 15,000. How are we going
to find that?" And the Rudins agreed to Percy Sutton
(10:30):
to put up $ 25,000. And I was publishing a magazine
then called New Times, and I put in another 5,
000 at the time. And Percy invited Fred Lebow and me
to go down and see the then mayor of the
city of New York, a man named Abe Beame in
(10:53):
1976 in New York City was on the verge of
bankruptcy and crime was sky- high, and this was the
bicentennial of the United States. And our pitch to the
mayor was, let's do this to lift the spirit of
(11:16):
this beaten up city in conjunction with the toll ships
and see if we can do something that would just
help lift the community a little bit. The mayor bought
it and you know the rest of the story.
Rebbeca Gentry (11:34):
Well, I can't even get my head around how that
would've gone down back in 1976 with a city that was
how it was. So first of all, thank you from
a running perspective, thank you and everybody else that was
involved. But what I want to talk about is Fred because
to a lot of runners today, I think we all
(11:56):
know and we hear Fred's name and he's very much
a big figure in today's world associated with the TCS New
York City Marathon. What was your first thoughts of Fred
as a person because you became friends with him?
George Hirsch (12:11):
Yeah, Fred and I were very close. So Fred Lebow
was a Holocaust survivor and he was a colorful personality.
At the time I first met him, he was doing
knockoffs in the garment center and he started to run
(12:34):
because he wanted to get fit for tennis, and he
never became a particularly good runner, but he loved running
and he joined the club. And at that point, the leader
in the organization was a man named Ted Corbitt, who
had been the first president of the New York Road Runners.
(12:58):
He had been an Olympic marathon runner. He was someone
we all looked up to and admired. And Fred jumped
in and started using his business skills, his promotion skills,
and he and a guy named Vince Chiappetta were the founders
of the first New York City Marathon in Central Park
(13:22):
in 1970. And that race was small, 127 starters, very
small deal, and it went on for five years and it
kept growing at a time when running was taking off.
It was the beginning of what we all then called
the running boom. And Fred was media savvy. He was
(13:49):
a promoter. The media loved him because they always knew
they could get a story out of Fred and he
knew how to build an event. And once the Mayor
greenlighted this, Fred found his life's work.
Rob Simmelkjaer (14:11):
So take me George, to the starting line of the
first five burro marathon. I'll never really go there. So
I want to go there with you for a second
and what that moment was like, what your expectations were
for the event. What was that day like and some
(14:34):
things that people might be surprised to hear about the
first time the runners crossed the Verrazano Bridge to start
this race?
George Hirsch (14:44):
So back then there was one really famous marathon runner
and he had won the Olympic marathon and he was
an American, and his name was Frank Shorter. And Frank
stayed with me the night before the marathon. Fred knew
that he had to get Frank Shorter if this race
(15:05):
was going to get the attention of the media, and
he convinced Frank to do it. And Frank said, " Well,
I'll come just to see if there's any chance they
can close this city down to run a marathon." And
Frank and I drove out to the start that morning
(15:25):
and 2000 people, nothing like what we're going to see
Sunday with 50, 000 plus. So it wasn't all that organized,
it wasn't what it is. We could jog around out
at the start. And as we began to line up,
Fred walked along the front line of the marathon and
(15:48):
people who didn't look like they were very good runners, he
would just push them to the back. I'm talking about
guys with basketball shoes who might've weighed 240 pounds, and
Fred would say, " You don't belong up here in the front."
And he would pull the better runners to make sure
they were in the front row. And of course, no
(16:09):
chips back then. Everyone's time was from the starter's gun.
And I remembered it as thinking this is a bigger
deal than I thought it would ever be. There were
helicopters overhead, the tugboats were spraying water. Looking down from
(16:35):
the Verrazano Bridge, it was like a big- time event
even in year one. And by the time we crossed
the bridge into Brooklyn and all of a sudden there
are people on the sidewalks, both sides, and it was like, this thing's going to work. Yep.
Rebbeca Gentry (16:58):
I love that. And I love the shock. What do you say? There were people on the
sidewalks and now today it's just expected. And I think-
George Hirsch (17:05):
Now it's unbelievable.
Rebbeca Gentry (17:06):
We say in whatever city you're running a marathon, whether
it's New York, whether it's Boston, people are expected to
come out. If somebody tells me they're in New York
or Boston when the marathons on and they're not cheering, I'm like, "
I'm good. Don't need to talk to you anymore." But let's
go back to, we were just talking before we came
(17:28):
on stage about the course changes. And so it went
from laps of Central Park, by the way, you're all
welcome that that is not the case anymore. And then
you told us about how there was a very fun moment
where the course just popped into the Bronx and I
(17:50):
want you to share with everybody the story about that
because it was magnificent.
George Hirsch (17:53):
Yeah. So the very first year there was a five borough
marathon. It was essential that the course at least got
into all five boroughs and it crossed the Willis Avenue
Bridge, which a lot of you know now, and at
the 20- mile mark, it ran around a lamppost in
(18:18):
the Bronx. It entered the Bronx for, I don't know,
20 or 50 yards, and that was it. And those of us who
were running the race that first year, we grabbed the
lamppost and spun ourselves around. I see a gentleman nodding.
He remembered. And all of a sudden we're running back
(18:41):
against those who were still coming behind us. And the
first winner of the race who went on to win
this race the first four times, Bill Rodgers had opened
up a sizable lead on Frank Shorter, the other big
champion of the day. And as Bill was running back
(19:05):
now toward the city, he passed Frank and Frank knew
that Bill was going to win the race, and he said, "
Congratulations Bill." As they passed each other. And at that
point, the torch in marathon running was passed. The first
(19:29):
five years or so of the 1970s, the top marathon
runner in the world was Frank Shorter. And from that
day in the New York City Marathon, the top runner
in the world became Bill Rodgers. He won New York
four times as I said, he went on to win
Boston four times. So it was at that moment after the
(19:53):
lamppost in the Bronx that the course changed. We opened up
more distance in the Bronx thereafter. Yeah.
Rebbeca Gentry (20:06):
I don't know about anyone who's run the marathon before, but that
visual in my mind of those two running legends, just
sort of Frank Sinatra style, holding onto a lamppost, going
around the corner and getting on with their marathon for
another six or so miles was absolutely phenomenal. And that
Willis Avenue Bridge, that was one of my personal darkest
moments of the New York City Marathon because I think
(20:30):
where it is in the race, where it is now,
the distance wise, I was solo and it was very
dark. So I wish I'd have had that thought in
my mind. And even if it wasn't the same lamppost
for all of you who are about to run it
now, when you go into the Bronx and you see
a lamppost and you're in the pain of the 20
miles, just laugh. Just have that image in your mind
of these two amazing runners just grabbing the lamppost, just
(20:53):
that's going to help you get through. So thank you.
George Hirsch (20:54):
A further answer to your question is there was one
other course change, and that was from the first year to the
second year.
Rebbeca Gentry (21:03):
This blew my mind, everyone. Are you ready?
George Hirsch (21:05):
Very first year, the race when it crossed into Manhattan
over the Queensboro Bridge, it immediately went over to the
little path along the FDR Drive between the FDR Drive
and the river. And of course, there weren't many runners
and they were spread out, but there were no spectators
(21:29):
of course. And it didn't take long for Fred Lebow
and the organizers to figure out that this race had
to come up First Avenue. So year two, they changed
the course. And as those of you who run the
course know, it's the most intense part of the race
(21:50):
from a crowd perspective, that 60th Street on up to
90th Street on First Avenue is just, it's just a
wall of sound now, but it was dead quiet in
year one and that had to be changed.
Rebbeca Gentry (22:08):
Wow.
Rob Simmelkjaer (22:08):
I can't imagine that's a narrow path you're talking about
going up the East River. So yes, that's a big
change. That was a most necessary change. George, since I've
been here and gotten to know you, one thing I
know is how important the history is of the marathon
to you. You really believe that this history needs to
(22:28):
be preserved. You do such a great job of telling
these stories. You stayed very close with a lot of
these runners from the early days that we talk about
the Frank Shorter's and the Bill Rodgers. And now, our winners
now are big stars. They're making pretty big money. They're
fedded all over the city. They're on late night television
(22:51):
when they win our races. But you told me some
stories about back then, a guy would win or finish
in the top three of the race and might not
even have a cab fare to get home necessarily after
the race. You talked about you and one of the
top runners back during those years having a moment like that.
George Hirsch (23:09):
The sport was amateur then, and that meant if you received
money as an elite runner, you could not participate in
the Olympic Games. So I'll tell you, it's no longer
a secret, but I can tell you now, I negotiated
with both Shorter and to Rodgers in 1976 to get under
(23:35):
the table payments in an envelope cash, $ 2, 000 each.
And it was sort of done back then, but no
one was supposed to have known about it. And needless
to say, a runner couldn't earn a living. They had
to have a line of running clothes or have a
(23:57):
running store or something like that, but it wasn't a profession.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:04):
Wow. How much has changed? That leads me into, we've
talked a lot about other people and running and you
have been involved in running for six decades.
George Hirsch (24:16):
Yeah.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:16):
About right?
George Hirsch (24:17):
That's fair. That's fair.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:18):
Rob said you've run 40 marathons. Your PR at age
44 was 2
George Hirsch (24:26):
All correct.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:28):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Round of applause for that 2:38 at age 44.
Rob Simmelkjaer (24:32):
Just stopped for a moment, right? I mean, that's just incredible.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:35):
Unreal.
Rob Simmelkjaer (24:36):
That's a legitimately fast time at age 44.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:40):
Yes, before super shoes and before GPS watches and all
of the other stuff that seems to have all of the
gels and nutrition-
George Hirsch (24:48):
We didn't know anything.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:50):
Exactly. Well, you clearly knew a lot more than you're
letting on, but I want to know George. I'm somebody
who wants to run until the day I am no
longer on this planet, and that's how I train. I
train for longevity. How have you done it? I know
you're not running, I know you promised your wife at
75, that that would be your last one, but you
(25:12):
ran for so long and you enjoyed it. So can
you share with us what it is about running that
kept the spark there for you?
George Hirsch (25:20):
Yeah, I guess first off, I've been pretty lucky in
that I haven't had major, I've had injuries, running injuries
like all of us, but I haven't had any that
have been really serious. So I've been extremely lucky and
(25:41):
I enjoy fitness. I still do. I haven't run today,
but I hope to later today at least to put
a few miles on the treadmill. And in more recent
years, I've been mixing up my training and doing a
little more cross- training. As Rob knows, a few months
(26:03):
ago, I started boxing and I'm really enjoying it because
the old days, I never did enough upper body work.
And boxing is great for your shoulders and working the
big bag and the speed bag and you get a
great workout.
Rebbeca Gentry (26:22):
Yeah, you do. I used to do boxing so I know. I feel-
George Hirsch (26:24):
Oh you know.
Rebbeca Gentry (26:25):
Yeah. And it's great for the cardio. You obviously have
years of cardio, so it must be... But you don't
seem like somebody who gets stressed easily, but I'm sure
it helps let out some of the stresses on that bag.
George Hirsch (26:37):
I think fitness helps us in all of that. I
try not to overly stress on stuff because life is
life and when you get to my age, you learn
you can normally turn the page and move on. Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer (26:54):
I remember last summer when I got injured, I was
trying to run the Chicago Marathon, my knees started bothering
me and it was so funny telling George, " Well, George,
I wanted to run this marathon but my knee hurts.
I'm not going to make it. I can't do it."
I'm talking to George who's run 40 marathons, he's 80- something years
old, and he's looking at me like, " Really, Rob? I
(27:16):
think you can probably figure it out. You'll recover, you'll
get better." And I wasn't really sure at the time,
but sure enough, a year later I kept running and
did feel better and was able to run in Berlin.
What advice do you have for people to keep going
and have that kind of longevity in the sport? Because
you hear people all the time saying, " Oh, my knees,
(27:39):
my hip, my whatever. I had to stop running" and
you're someone who never stopped running really.
George Hirsch (27:47):
Yeah. And listen, Rob ran Berlin and he ran a
PR of 3
still improving. And he's a perfect example when he gets
to be my age, he's going to be doing it
for sure. What is the advice? I think the advice
(28:11):
is, it's like a marathon. We can't say how important
a taper is. And maybe in all of the cycle
of the year, you've got to do some downtime. We're
(28:31):
all busy and don't try to push yourself through it.
Our work situations can be very demanding and maybe you
say to yourself, " I'm not going to run this marathon
this year" or " I'm just going to pass." And take
the long view would be my be my basic advice and you'll
(28:56):
hold up much better.
Rebbeca Gentry (28:58):
That's beautiful advice and something that I am going to
quote you on that because at Peloton I say that
a lot to runners, unless you are an Olympian, who
is getting paid the big bucks as we know, it's
our hobby and our hobbies should be what make us
happy and it shouldn't be stressful. We shouldn't be forcing
(29:19):
ourselves to get out there for the run. If it
works, beautiful. If it doesn't, it's tomorrow. There's always tomorrow.
So I selfishly want to know a little bit about
your relationship with one of my idols, a female runner
who has inspired me a huge amount, and that is
Joan, Joan Benoit Samuelson. I think we all know first
woman to win, what? 1984 she won. And you've run
(29:44):
a lot of miles with Joan, you've run a lot
of marathons. A very specific marathon, you ran more or
less alongside her all the way. What is your relationship like-
George Hirsch (29:53):
I wish it were all way, but yes it's true. It the
1979 Boston Marathon, I started off and maybe, and I
was talking to a woman at the start, not Joan,
and she was telling me what she was hoping to
(30:14):
do that day, and I gave her the standard Boston
advice that it's all downhill in the beginning, so let's
go very easy. And probably a minute or two into
the race, this other woman comes up alongside of us
and she's like a kid. She was a college student
(30:38):
at the time, Joan Benoit. And we all introduced ourselves,
this is Sue, this is Joan. I'm George. Joni and
I knew who each other were a little bit. And
we started running together. And I remembered at a certain point
(30:58):
our friend Sue dropped back. And as we're heading into
Wellesley, we keep hearing second woman, you're the second woman.
Now listen, that was pretty heady for me to think
that I was the second woman in the Boston Marathon.
(31:20):
It was extraordinary. And up ahead of us was America's
then best marathon runner who won this award last year,
Patti Catalano Lyons and Patti Lyons Catalano. And she was
(31:40):
the first American woman to ever break 2
marathon. She was the real deal. And we didn't see
her, but we kept hearing, " Second woman, Patti's up ahead,
Patti's up ahead." And as we were going into Wellesley,
I remembered saying to Joni, " It's going to get really
(32:03):
noisy because all these college women come out and they
go crazy for the first women in the race." I said, "
It's going to get really noisy. So let me tell
you something. I came through here last year with Miki.
It was a woman named Miki Gorman, and you and
(32:26):
I are on faster pace today, and she won the
race." And Joni looked up at me and she said, " George, you made
my day." I'll never forget it. And it was a
chilly sort of rainy day. And after we got through
the halfway and we started heading into the hills, she
took off. She had a long sleeve shirt and she
(32:49):
whipped it off and tossed it aside as if to
say, now it's time to let's get going. And she
left me in the hills and off she went. And
I remembered we were getting into Boston and I was
really not processing mentally where I was and I was
(33:12):
getting depressed and you know the bad patches you go
through in a marathon. And all of a sudden, my
now dear friend Sue comes back up and tells what
is of course the greatest lie that we all tell
each other, " George, you're looking great." And we all hear
(33:35):
that. We all yell it out a thousand times on
Sunday and you want to believe it. And back then,
people line the course with transistor radios. And now we're
hearing that Bill Rodgers won the Boston Marathon, which he
(33:55):
always did. And then we're hearing Joan Benoit has just
passed Patty Catalano and Sue and I are bumping our
fists. And this is really crazy because Patty was a real
friend of mine and I've known Joan for an hour
(34:16):
and a half. But somehow or other you run a
race or part of it, you know what I mean? You run
part of a race with someone and you're in it
together. And it was like, " Go Joan." And Joan passed. And I
remember we came down into the finish shoot and there
(34:38):
was Joan and she had a wreath on her head
and Sue and I finished together and the three of
us were hugging. And as I wrote in a piece
that I wrote in Runner's World right after that, I said, "
And there we were the first, third and fourth women
in the Boston Marathon."
Rob Simmelkjaer (34:58):
That's a great story. Love that story.
Rebbeca Gentry (34:58):
I love that. And I am going to be asking you to find some photos of that as well.
Rob Simmelkjaer (35:10):
Unbelievable and exemplary of where you've been. You're almost like
Forrest Gump in a way of running. You've been in
so many places, in so many rooms and races and
connected with so many of the greats of the sport that
you really have seen it all through your own eyes.
And you mentioned writing and the role that you as
(35:33):
a journalist have played in sport. We have a journalism
award at New York Road Runners, we just gave it
out yesterday at our media luncheon to a gentleman named
Chris Chavez who was this year's recipient. He's the editor of
Cityist Magazine. Many of us know him. And that award
is named after George Hirsch. And it's because of your
(35:55):
contributions as a journalist to this sport running Runner's World
Magazine, all the things you did really put running in
the mainstream of society. And I'm just curious now, George,
you talked about that running boom of the seventies. How
do you think running has stayed culturally relevant all these
(36:17):
years? And what do you think about what's going on
now? Because we have a running boom of our own
happening now, as you can see looking around our expo,
as you can see from the fact that our races
are all sold out in New York. What do you think
is behind running, staying relevant, and continuing to grow in
its popularity?
George Hirsch (36:37):
I think right now we are in the third running
boom, and I think it's bigger than either of the
ones that came before. I truly believe it. I think
there's a few catalysts for it. The pandemic obviously caused an
awful lot of people who were forced to stay at
(36:58):
home. They couldn't go to work, they couldn't get out
of their house to do much, but they could go
out and run and boy did they. And we're getting
more entries, not just for the marathon, but for all
of the roughly 40 to 50 events that we put on each
(37:20):
year. They're all sold out now. The demand is huge.
And also, I think the other thing that has totally
transformed the sport, you mentioned Joni, she was a pioneer
is and Kathrine Switzer, who's going to be here later
(37:41):
today, women in the sport, that first five borough marathon when
I said there were 2000 people, 100 were women. Now
we're seeing at our races often 50/50 and sometimes even
(38:02):
more women than men. That's just driven this sport and
I think it's huge. I think this sport even has
a long way to go. And it's not just a
sport, it's an activity. It's a way of life and
it's a lifestyle. And I think that's what's important. And
(38:26):
then people like Galloway, the Galloway method, he came along
and he gave us permission to do some walking during
a marathon. That was unheard of when I talked about
1969 and 1970s. No one would dare stop and walk. Now
(38:48):
you can incorporate it into really quite a respectable marathon,
walking a minute every five minutes or every mile or
whatever your Galloway program is. So I think all of these
things have made running more accessible. And the more people
(39:12):
see, there'll be maybe two million people on the streets
out there on Sunday. And a lot of them are
going to say, " I could do that maybe next year."
Rob Simmelkjaer (39:26):
That's absolutely right. And you nailed it. I talk about
that all the time. The way this sport has grown,
what's been driving it and the role of women, no
question about it. And one story that I have to
ask you to talk about, there's no interview with you,
George is complete without talking about a very special woman
(39:48):
to you in your life and your late wife, Shay. And
Shay, of course, if you know George, and you've known George
for a long time, you know how important Shay was
in your life and she was a runner. You met
her at a race. That's my understanding. And so running
has been such a big part of your life and
(40:11):
perhaps no more so than the day you met Shay.
George Hirsch (40:16):
Well, thank you for that. My wife Shay passed away
10 years ago, and I think about her every day.
So back in 1988, I was asked by NBC to do
commentary for the Olympic Games, which I had done in
'84 and subsequently in Barcelona in '80, in '92. And the Olympic
(40:44):
trials for the men's marathon was held at the New
Jersey Waterfront Marathon in conjunction with the people's race. So
to do my homework, my job then I was publisher
of Runner's World, but I was doing commentary for the
(41:05):
games in Seoul, Korea. And so I went out to
the marathon the day before Standard Expo. This is what
it was. It wasn't this big, it was a much
smaller race. But you know the routine, there were seminars
(41:26):
not on like this. And I was standing at the
Runner's World booth and this woman walked by and she
had this beautiful smile and blue eyes and dark hair.
And I just took a look at her and it
(41:47):
was palpable. And she kept walking so I followed her.
And I came up to her and I just said, "
Hi, how are you?" And she said to me, " Are
you George Hirsch?" And I would've said yes under any
circumstances at that point. And she said, " You did me
(42:11):
a favor and I want to thank you for it." And
I said, " Well, what was that?" And she said, " Well,
some months ago, a friend of mine asked you to
send a training program from Runner's World Magazine to me
because I'm training and tomorrow I'm running my first marathon." You have
(42:33):
to remember, there were no online, there was nothing. So
it was something that I had put in the mail and
it wasn't an unusual request and I hadn't given it
a lot of thought. I remembered the friend who requested
it, didn't know who I sent it to. And I said, "
Well, great. What are you looking for?" And she said, "
(42:54):
Well... Like every one of you who runs your first marathon... " Well
just to finish." And then she said, But you know,
I wouldn't mind coming back and running the New York
City Marathon this fall and seeing if I could qualify
for Boston." I said, " What do you need?" She said, " Well, I
(43:15):
just turned 40 and I need 3
Well, how would you like to have dinner with me
tonight?" And she said, " Well, thank you but no." So
I wanted to prolong the conversation. So I walked her
out to her car at the race headquarters hotel out
(43:39):
there and kept the conversation going. Next morning, I have
a big breakfast with friends and so on. And I
go to the race and the elite runners, the Olympic
marathon trials started 15 minutes before the people's race and
(44:01):
I'm there for that. And I have to confess, I
had lost all interest in that. And they start, and
I walk into this sea of, I think it was 3,
500 people. And you know what it's like. There was no way
I was going to find her. And the gun goes
off. And I waited until every last person crossed the
(44:25):
starting line, and I started to jog, looking to my
left, looking to my right, looking, looking, looking. Finally, at
five miles, there she is, she's up ahead of me.
She's listening to her tunes. And I came up alongside
of her, Rob, and I'm trying to be super cool,
(44:50):
and I said, " Hi." And she said, " What are you
doing here?" And I said, " Well, actually, I was looking
for you." And we started... I have to tell you
this. It was a period for a number of reasons,
(45:11):
including I remembered a broken shoulder that I had. I
hadn't run a marathon for four years. Anyway, we start
running together and then the next thing you know, it's
life stories and we're talking and we get to, I don't know, 23,
(45:31):
24 miles. She says, " I'm really getting tired." And I said, "
Well, welcome to the marathon. This is what you're supposed
to be." And we went quiet. 3 hours, 37 minutes
and one second later, she crosses the finish line. I
(45:53):
step aside because I don't have a number. And off
she goes, by now she knew where I worked or
whatever. And so I got to work early the next day, which
I used to do. I don't anymore. And the phone
rang and she said, " I just calling to thank you
(46:17):
because now I'm qualified for the Boston Marathon thanks to
you. Is there any chance I could take you to
lunch this weekend? Any chance?" And anyway, it was a
little more complicated after that. And she was moving from New Jersey
(46:38):
back to Idaho where she lived, and it took a
while but the next year we got married. So that's it.
Rebbeca Gentry (46:46):
Yeah. The joys of being a race director to chase
your love.
Rob Simmelkjaer (46:54):
Absolutely. Still, I've heard it from you a number of
times. I haven't heard a better love story then that
in a race. And I think it really sums up
the role running has had in your life. And of
course, you've had an incredible role in the life of
running and the growth of running. And our organization here
(47:14):
at New York Road Runners, our event here at the TCS
New York Center Marathon, George, congratulations again on this award
today. Such a privilege to present it to you. So
great to have you here on Set The Pace, you have your own
podcast by the, which we should tell people about.
George Hirsch (47:30):
Yeah, with Amby Burfoot, it's called Running
Sport. And I'm often on the same side that Becs and
Rob are on and it's fun doing this.
Rob Simmelkjaer (47:44):
Yep, it really is. You do a great job. George,
thank you so much for being with us. Congratulations. Thank
you for everything you've done for New York Road Runners,
for the TCS New York City Marathon, and we will
see you soon. Thank you very much.
George Hirsch (48:01):
Thank you. And thanks Becs, and thanks Rob. I'm honored to
be on your program.
Rob Simmelkjaer (48:07):
Thank you. All right, well this has been amazing. Now,
for those here live with us, we're going to take
a 15- minute break. Gabby Thomas is in the building.
I have seen Gabby. She's backstage.
Rebbeca Gentry (48:18):
Go and tell everyone else in the expo.
Rob Simmelkjaer (48:20):
We'll be out in a moment. Olympic gold medalist Gabby
Thomas will be back on stage with us in just
a couple of minutes. For those online, thanks for listening.
You can just find the next episode because it's going
to be right after this one on Set the Pace.
Thank you for joining us.
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Audio (00:39):
Thank you New York. Today, we're reminded of the power
of community and the power of coming together. Athletes, on
your mark. The first woman to finish for the second straight year
here in the New York City Marathon is Miki Gorman, a smiling
Miki Gorman. And why not, 2
(01:03):
at the emotion of Shalane Flanagan as she comes to
the line. Pointing to his chest, pointing to the USA
he so proudly wears across his chest. A great day
for Matt Kapusky.
Rob Simmelkjaer (01:19):
Hey everybody, and welcome to a special edition of Set
the Pace presented by Peloton. It is the official podcast
of New York Road Runners. I'm your host and the
CEO of New York Road Runners Rob Simmelkjaer, and we
are thrilled to be live at the TCS New York
City Marathon Expo presented by New Balance. It's the first
(01:42):
day Thursday of the expo and the energy is already
off the hook. We've got people milling about all over
this place at the Jacob Javits Center in Manhattan. They're
picking up their bibs, they are doing some shopping at
the expo, they're buying their new balance gear. We got
a nice audience here in the citizen stage, so welcome
to everybody out there listening, and I'm also thrilled to
(02:04):
welcome as I have each and every week the pleasure
of co- hosting with the lovely Becs Gentry. Hello Rebbeca.
Rebbeca Gentry (02:11):
Hi. Hello, hello. Hi everyone. Thank you for joining us
today on this beautiful New York day.
Rob Simmelkjaer (02:17):
It really is, and it's always a thrill to actually
see you in person. We don't get to do this
that often.
Rebbeca Gentry (02:23):
I'm just a floating head on a screen.
Rob Simmelkjaer (02:24):
For those who don't know, Becs is training for something
called The World wait-
Rebbeca Gentry (02:30):
The Great World Race.
Rob Simmelkjaer (02:31):
The Great World Race. She's running seven marathons on seven
continents in seven days later on this month, and the
amount of training she's doing for this is unthinkable. Someone
asked if she was running the marathon. I said, " Well,
that would be like a start of a training one
for her if she ran the TCS New York City Marathon."
Rebbeca Gentry (02:52):
It would, but I have FOMO as well. I'm very
envious of all of you running, in my personal opinion,
the best race in the world. So I'm very, very
envious but I'll be out there cheering for every single person
for sure.
Rob Simmelkjaer (03:06):
Well, we've got a special day today because we're not
doing just one, but we're doing multiple podcasts today. We've
got such great guests that we decided to break it
up into two different episodes. First up in our first episode
today will be someone who is known to pretty much
everyone who knows New York Road Runners and the TCS
(03:28):
New York City Marathon, someone who was there at the
beginning of what this race was and obviously has seen
it become what it is this global event, New York
Road Runners Board Chair Emeritus George Hirsch. George is receiving
a really prestigious award today called the Abebe Bikila Award.
(03:49):
It's an award that's been presented since 1978 and it's
given to someone who's made an outstanding contribution to the sport
of distance running. George is truly an icon in the
running industry. He's championed this sport for more than five
decades. From 2004 to 2023, he was the chair of our board
(04:09):
at New York Road Runners. Now he's chair emeritus. And
so not only will we talk to George, but we
also have the honor of giving him the Abebe Bikila
Award on the show. So that's coming up in just
a second. Then just as a tease Becs, we're going
to do another show right here after a short break,
we're going to return with yet another icon of the
sport of running five- time Olympic medalist, three- time gold
(04:32):
medalist in Paris Gabby Thomas will join us here. She's
not only a storied Olympian, she's also the grand marshal
of this year's TCS New York City Marathon. So we're
going to hear all about Gabby's life since Paris where
she won those three gold medals. So stay tuned for
that. That'll drop right after our episode with George. But
(04:52):
let's start by honoring the one and only George Hirsch.
And George, it's great to have you here on Set
the Pace and it's such a privilege to be able
to give you this award today. Welcome.
George Hirsch (05:03):
Thank you, Rob. Just great to be here with you and Becs.
Rob Simmelkjaer (05:07):
Well, George, you know, but I'll tell our audience this
award, the Abebe Bikila Award is named after Abebe Bikila two-
time Olympic marathon champion from Ethiopia. The award is given
to individuals who've made an outstanding contribution to the sport
of distance running. A lot of professional athletes have won
this award over the years, but many others have as
(05:28):
well because it's really all about people who've made a
big impact in the sport, especially in New York, especially
to New York Road Runners. George, clearly you qualify as
one of those people and we were so thrilled to
see you elected to receive this award this year. For
more than five decades, George has dedicated his life to
(05:48):
elevating this sport. He was a co- founder of the
New York City Marathon, served as chair of course of
Road Runners for many years, and he also did it
as a publisher. His background is in media. He was
the publisher of Runner's World Magazine, a magazine that so
many people know and love. Is there something that really
chronicles the sport of running and really played a role
(06:09):
in helping it grow? And he was a pretty good
runner as well. He ran 40 marathons, that number's right,
40 marathons and his all- time PR was in his
forties. We'll get to that in a little while. But George,
you've just been such an incredible icon. I would not
(06:29):
be sitting in this chair where I am today. This
sport, this organization of New York Road Runners, and certainly
this event, the TCS New York City Marathon, would not
be what it is if it were not for your
incredible vision, your contributions, your steadfast dedication to the sport,
to this organization, and to this event. So it is
(06:52):
really our pleasure to present you with this award today. Becs,
will you do the honors?
Rebbeca Gentry (07:00):
I'm very honored to do this. So George, it's such a pleasure to meet you. I
cannot wait for our conversation, but congratulations.
Rob Simmelkjaer (07:04):
Let's get a big round of applause here in the
audience for George Hirsch, the recipient of this year's Abebe
Bikila Award and so well deserved. So George, congratulations.
George Hirsch (07:17):
Thank you so much Rob for your overly generous comments
and Becs, I will cherish this. Thank you so much.
Rob Simmelkjaer (07:27):
So George, let's start. I want to start with you
at the start of all of this. 1976, it was
probably earlier than that, when someone first came to you
with this idea of taking this marathon, which had been
(07:48):
run in laps around Central Park for several years and said, "
I got an idea. Let's take this thing outside the
park and let's have folks run all five boroughs of the
City of New York." When you first heard that idea,
first of all, who was the first person you heard
it from and what was your reaction?
George Hirsch (08:09):
The first person I heard it from was a genuine
New York character named George Spitz. And George, he had
what in the old days we used to call a
full Rolodex. He worked in the city hall and the
audit department, but he knew everyone and he was a
(08:32):
political gadfly. He wrote letters to the editors of newspapers
and he used to run for office. He never intended
to win, but he just wanted to run and make
a statement about some issue or another. And he was
the first person that I heard the idea from. And
(08:54):
Rob, I thought, " That's a big idea." And I wasn't
enthusiastic about it at all. I thought, " How are they
going to pull this off?" Closing down five boroughs, New
York City? I thought, " Oh, come on."
Rob Simmelkjaer (09:11):
And at what point did you actually start to think, "
Wait a second, this is a crazy idea, but maybe
this could actually happen." What was the first glimmer of
this possibly working?
George Hirsch (09:25):
That was when this gentleman, George Spitz was in touch
with a bunch of people, and one of them was
a local politician, very influential named Percy Sutton. He was
the Manhattan borough president. And Percy began to embrace the
(09:48):
idea and he thought this could work. And he went
to two prominent real estate developers in the city, very civic-
minded, Jack and Lew Rudin. And up until then, Fred
Lebow, who was then the president of the New York
(10:10):
Road Runners. He was like, " Come on, we can't do
something like this." I remember Fred saying, " This could cost
big money. This might cost $ 15,000. How are we going
to find that?" And the Rudins agreed to Percy Sutton
(10:30):
to put up $ 25,000. And I was publishing a magazine
then called New Times, and I put in another 5,
000 at the time. And Percy invited Fred Lebow and me
to go down and see the then mayor of the
city of New York, a man named Abe Beame in
(10:53):
1976 in New York City was on the verge of
bankruptcy and crime was sky- high, and this was the
bicentennial of the United States. And our pitch to the
mayor was, let's do this to lift the spirit of
(11:16):
this beaten up city in conjunction with the toll ships
and see if we can do something that would just
help lift the community a little bit. The mayor bought
it and you know the rest of the story.
Rebbeca Gentry (11:34):
Well, I can't even get my head around how that
would've gone down back in 1976 with a city that was
how it was. So first of all, thank you from
a running perspective, thank you and everybody else that was
involved. But what I want to talk about is Fred because
to a lot of runners today, I think we all
(11:56):
know and we hear Fred's name and he's very much
a big figure in today's world associated with the TCS New
York City Marathon. What was your first thoughts of Fred
as a person because you became friends with him?
George Hirsch (12:11):
Yeah, Fred and I were very close. So Fred Lebow
was a Holocaust survivor and he was a colorful personality.
At the time I first met him, he was doing
knockoffs in the garment center and he started to run
(12:34):
because he wanted to get fit for tennis, and he
never became a particularly good runner, but he loved running
and he joined the club. And at that point, the leader
in the organization was a man named Ted Corbitt, who
had been the first president of the New York Road Runners.
(12:58):
He had been an Olympic marathon runner. He was someone
we all looked up to and admired. And Fred jumped
in and started using his business skills, his promotion skills,
and he and a guy named Vince Chiappetta were the founders
of the first New York City Marathon in Central Park
(13:22):
in 1970. And that race was small, 127 starters, very
small deal, and it went on for five years and it
kept growing at a time when running was taking off.
It was the beginning of what we all then called
the running boom. And Fred was media savvy. He was
(13:49):
a promoter. The media loved him because they always knew
they could get a story out of Fred and he
knew how to build an event. And once the Mayor
greenlighted this, Fred found his life's work.
Rob Simmelkjaer (14:11):
So take me George, to the starting line of the
first five burro marathon. I'll never really go there. So
I want to go there with you for a second
and what that moment was like, what your expectations were
for the event. What was that day like and some
(14:34):
things that people might be surprised to hear about the
first time the runners crossed the Verrazano Bridge to start
this race?
George Hirsch (14:44):
So back then there was one really famous marathon runner
and he had won the Olympic marathon and he was
an American, and his name was Frank Shorter. And Frank
stayed with me the night before the marathon. Fred knew
that he had to get Frank Shorter if this race
(15:05):
was going to get the attention of the media, and
he convinced Frank to do it. And Frank said, " Well,
I'll come just to see if there's any chance they
can close this city down to run a marathon." And
Frank and I drove out to the start that morning
(15:25):
and 2000 people, nothing like what we're going to see
Sunday with 50, 000 plus. So it wasn't all that organized,
it wasn't what it is. We could jog around out
at the start. And as we began to line up,
Fred walked along the front line of the marathon and
(15:48):
people who didn't look like they were very good runners, he
would just push them to the back. I'm talking about
guys with basketball shoes who might've weighed 240 pounds, and
Fred would say, " You don't belong up here in the front."
And he would pull the better runners to make sure
they were in the front row. And of course, no
(16:09):
chips back then. Everyone's time was from the starter's gun.
And I remembered it as thinking this is a bigger
deal than I thought it would ever be. There were
helicopters overhead, the tugboats were spraying water. Looking down from
(16:35):
the Verrazano Bridge, it was like a big- time event
even in year one. And by the time we crossed
the bridge into Brooklyn and all of a sudden there
are people on the sidewalks, both sides, and it was like, this thing's going to work. Yep.
Rebbeca Gentry (16:58):
I love that. And I love the shock. What do you say? There were people on the
sidewalks and now today it's just expected. And I think-
George Hirsch (17:05):
Now it's unbelievable.
Rebbeca Gentry (17:06):
We say in whatever city you're running a marathon, whether
it's New York, whether it's Boston, people are expected to
come out. If somebody tells me they're in New York
or Boston when the marathons on and they're not cheering, I'm like, "
I'm good. Don't need to talk to you anymore." But let's
go back to, we were just talking before we came
(17:28):
on stage about the course changes. And so it went
from laps of Central Park, by the way, you're all
welcome that that is not the case anymore. And then
you told us about how there was a very fun moment
where the course just popped into the Bronx and I
(17:50):
want you to share with everybody the story about that
because it was magnificent.
George Hirsch (17:53):
Yeah. So the very first year there was a five borough
marathon. It was essential that the course at least got
into all five boroughs and it crossed the Willis Avenue
Bridge, which a lot of you know now, and at
the 20- mile mark, it ran around a lamppost in
(18:18):
the Bronx. It entered the Bronx for, I don't know,
20 or 50 yards, and that was it. And those of us who
were running the race that first year, we grabbed the
lamppost and spun ourselves around. I see a gentleman nodding.
He remembered. And all of a sudden we're running back
(18:41):
against those who were still coming behind us. And the
first winner of the race who went on to win
this race the first four times, Bill Rodgers had opened
up a sizable lead on Frank Shorter, the other big
champion of the day. And as Bill was running back
(19:05):
now toward the city, he passed Frank and Frank knew
that Bill was going to win the race, and he said, "
Congratulations Bill." As they passed each other. And at that
point, the torch in marathon running was passed. The first
(19:29):
five years or so of the 1970s, the top marathon
runner in the world was Frank Shorter. And from that
day in the New York City Marathon, the top runner
in the world became Bill Rodgers. He won New York
four times as I said, he went on to win
Boston four times. So it was at that moment after the
(19:53):
lamppost in the Bronx that the course changed. We opened up
more distance in the Bronx thereafter. Yeah.
Rebbeca Gentry (20:06):
I don't know about anyone who's run the marathon before, but that
visual in my mind of those two running legends, just
sort of Frank Sinatra style, holding onto a lamppost, going
around the corner and getting on with their marathon for
another six or so miles was absolutely phenomenal. And that
Willis Avenue Bridge, that was one of my personal darkest
moments of the New York City Marathon because I think
(20:30):
where it is in the race, where it is now,
the distance wise, I was solo and it was very
dark. So I wish I'd have had that thought in
my mind. And even if it wasn't the same lamppost
for all of you who are about to run it
now, when you go into the Bronx and you see
a lamppost and you're in the pain of the 20
miles, just laugh. Just have that image in your mind
of these two amazing runners just grabbing the lamppost, just
(20:53):
that's going to help you get through. So thank you.
George Hirsch (20:54):
A further answer to your question is there was one
other course change, and that was from the first year to the
second year.
Rebbeca Gentry (21:03):
This blew my mind, everyone. Are you ready?
George Hirsch (21:05):
Very first year, the race when it crossed into Manhattan
over the Queensboro Bridge, it immediately went over to the
little path along the FDR Drive between the FDR Drive
and the river. And of course, there weren't many runners
and they were spread out, but there were no spectators
(21:29):
of course. And it didn't take long for Fred Lebow
and the organizers to figure out that this race had
to come up First Avenue. So year two, they changed
the course. And as those of you who run the
course know, it's the most intense part of the race
(21:50):
from a crowd perspective, that 60th Street on up to
90th Street on First Avenue is just, it's just a
wall of sound now, but it was dead quiet in
year one and that had to be changed.
Rebbeca Gentry (22:08):
Wow.
Rob Simmelkjaer (22:08):
I can't imagine that's a narrow path you're talking about
going up the East River. So yes, that's a big
change. That was a most necessary change. George, since I've
been here and gotten to know you, one thing I
know is how important the history is of the marathon
to you. You really believe that this history needs to
(22:28):
be preserved. You do such a great job of telling
these stories. You stayed very close with a lot of
these runners from the early days that we talk about
the Frank Shorter's and the Bill Rodgers. And now, our winners
now are big stars. They're making pretty big money. They're
fedded all over the city. They're on late night television
(22:51):
when they win our races. But you told me some
stories about back then, a guy would win or finish
in the top three of the race and might not
even have a cab fare to get home necessarily after
the race. You talked about you and one of the
top runners back during those years having a moment like that.
George Hirsch (23:09):
The sport was amateur then, and that meant if you received
money as an elite runner, you could not participate in
the Olympic Games. So I'll tell you, it's no longer
a secret, but I can tell you now, I negotiated
with both Shorter and to Rodgers in 1976 to get under
(23:35):
the table payments in an envelope cash, $ 2, 000 each.
And it was sort of done back then, but no
one was supposed to have known about it. And needless
to say, a runner couldn't earn a living. They had
to have a line of running clothes or have a
(23:57):
running store or something like that, but it wasn't a profession.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:04):
Wow. How much has changed? That leads me into, we've
talked a lot about other people and running and you
have been involved in running for six decades.
George Hirsch (24:16):
Yeah.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:16):
About right?
George Hirsch (24:17):
That's fair. That's fair.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:18):
Rob said you've run 40 marathons. Your PR at age
44 was 2
George Hirsch (24:26):
All correct.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:28):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Round of applause for that 2:38 at age 44.
Rob Simmelkjaer (24:32):
Just stopped for a moment, right? I mean, that's just incredible.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:35):
Unreal.
Rob Simmelkjaer (24:36):
That's a legitimately fast time at age 44.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:40):
Yes, before super shoes and before GPS watches and all
of the other stuff that seems to have all of the
gels and nutrition-
George Hirsch (24:48):
We didn't know anything.
Rebbeca Gentry (24:50):
Exactly. Well, you clearly knew a lot more than you're
letting on, but I want to know George. I'm somebody
who wants to run until the day I am no
longer on this planet, and that's how I train. I
train for longevity. How have you done it? I know
you're not running, I know you promised your wife at
75, that that would be your last one, but you
(25:12):
ran for so long and you enjoyed it. So can
you share with us what it is about running that
kept the spark there for you?
George Hirsch (25:20):
Yeah, I guess first off, I've been pretty lucky in
that I haven't had major, I've had injuries, running injuries
like all of us, but I haven't had any that
have been really serious. So I've been extremely lucky and
(25:41):
I enjoy fitness. I still do. I haven't run today,
but I hope to later today at least to put
a few miles on the treadmill. And in more recent
years, I've been mixing up my training and doing a
little more cross- training. As Rob knows, a few months
(26:03):
ago, I started boxing and I'm really enjoying it because
the old days, I never did enough upper body work.
And boxing is great for your shoulders and working the
big bag and the speed bag and you get a
great workout.
Rebbeca Gentry (26:22):
Yeah, you do. I used to do boxing so I know. I feel-
George Hirsch (26:24):
Oh you know.
Rebbeca Gentry (26:25):
Yeah. And it's great for the cardio. You obviously have
years of cardio, so it must be... But you don't
seem like somebody who gets stressed easily, but I'm sure
it helps let out some of the stresses on that bag.
George Hirsch (26:37):
I think fitness helps us in all of that. I
try not to overly stress on stuff because life is
life and when you get to my age, you learn
you can normally turn the page and move on. Yeah.
Rob Simmelkjaer (26:54):
I remember last summer when I got injured, I was
trying to run the Chicago Marathon, my knees started bothering
me and it was so funny telling George, " Well, George,
I wanted to run this marathon but my knee hurts.
I'm not going to make it. I can't do it."
I'm talking to George who's run 40 marathons, he's 80- something years
old, and he's looking at me like, " Really, Rob? I
(27:16):
think you can probably figure it out. You'll recover, you'll
get better." And I wasn't really sure at the time,
but sure enough, a year later I kept running and
did feel better and was able to run in Berlin.
What advice do you have for people to keep going
and have that kind of longevity in the sport? Because
you hear people all the time saying, " Oh, my knees,
(27:39):
my hip, my whatever. I had to stop running" and
you're someone who never stopped running really.
George Hirsch (27:47):
Yeah. And listen, Rob ran Berlin and he ran a
PR of 3
still improving. And he's a perfect example when he gets
to be my age, he's going to be doing it
for sure. What is the advice? I think the advice
(28:11):
is, it's like a marathon. We can't say how important
a taper is. And maybe in all of the cycle
of the year, you've got to do some downtime. We're
(28:31):
all busy and don't try to push yourself through it.
Our work situations can be very demanding and maybe you
say to yourself, " I'm not going to run this marathon
this year" or " I'm just going to pass." And take
the long view would be my be my basic advice and you'll
(28:56):
hold up much better.
Rebbeca Gentry (28:58):
That's beautiful advice and something that I am going to
quote you on that because at Peloton I say that
a lot to runners, unless you are an Olympian, who
is getting paid the big bucks as we know, it's
our hobby and our hobbies should be what make us
happy and it shouldn't be stressful. We shouldn't be forcing
(29:19):
ourselves to get out there for the run. If it
works, beautiful. If it doesn't, it's tomorrow. There's always tomorrow.
So I selfishly want to know a little bit about
your relationship with one of my idols, a female runner
who has inspired me a huge amount, and that is
Joan, Joan Benoit Samuelson. I think we all know first
woman to win, what? 1984 she won. And you've run
(29:44):
a lot of miles with Joan, you've run a lot
of marathons. A very specific marathon, you ran more or
less alongside her all the way. What is your relationship like-
George Hirsch (29:53):
I wish it were all way, but yes it's true. It the
1979 Boston Marathon, I started off and maybe, and I
was talking to a woman at the start, not Joan,
and she was telling me what she was hoping to
(30:14):
do that day, and I gave her the standard Boston
advice that it's all downhill in the beginning, so let's
go very easy. And probably a minute or two into
the race, this other woman comes up alongside of us
and she's like a kid. She was a college student
(30:38):
at the time, Joan Benoit. And we all introduced ourselves,
this is Sue, this is Joan. I'm George. Joni and
I knew who each other were a little bit. And
we started running together. And I remembered at a certain point
(30:58):
our friend Sue dropped back. And as we're heading into
Wellesley, we keep hearing second woman, you're the second woman.
Now listen, that was pretty heady for me to think
that I was the second woman in the Boston Marathon.
(31:20):
It was extraordinary. And up ahead of us was America's
then best marathon runner who won this award last year,
Patti Catalano Lyons and Patti Lyons Catalano. And she was
(31:40):
the first American woman to ever break 2
marathon. She was the real deal. And we didn't see
her, but we kept hearing, " Second woman, Patti's up ahead,
Patti's up ahead." And as we were going into Wellesley,
I remembered saying to Joni, " It's going to get really
(32:03):
noisy because all these college women come out and they
go crazy for the first women in the race." I said, "
It's going to get really noisy. So let me tell
you something. I came through here last year with Miki.
It was a woman named Miki Gorman, and you and
(32:26):
I are on faster pace today, and she won the
race." And Joni looked up at me and she said, " George, you made
my day." I'll never forget it. And it was a
chilly sort of rainy day. And after we got through
the halfway and we started heading into the hills, she
took off. She had a long sleeve shirt and she
(32:49):
whipped it off and tossed it aside as if to
say, now it's time to let's get going. And she
left me in the hills and off she went. And
I remembered we were getting into Boston and I was
really not processing mentally where I was and I was
(33:12):
getting depressed and you know the bad patches you go
through in a marathon. And all of a sudden, my
now dear friend Sue comes back up and tells what
is of course the greatest lie that we all tell
each other, " George, you're looking great." And we all hear
(33:35):
that. We all yell it out a thousand times on
Sunday and you want to believe it. And back then,
people line the course with transistor radios. And now we're
hearing that Bill Rodgers won the Boston Marathon, which he
(33:55):
always did. And then we're hearing Joan Benoit has just
passed Patty Catalano and Sue and I are bumping our
fists. And this is really crazy because Patty was a real
friend of mine and I've known Joan for an hour
(34:16):
and a half. But somehow or other you run a
race or part of it, you know what I mean? You run
part of a race with someone and you're in it
together. And it was like, " Go Joan." And Joan passed. And I
remember we came down into the finish shoot and there
(34:38):
was Joan and she had a wreath on her head
and Sue and I finished together and the three of
us were hugging. And as I wrote in a piece
that I wrote in Runner's World right after that, I said, "
And there we were the first, third and fourth women
in the Boston Marathon."
Rob Simmelkjaer (34:58):
That's a great story. Love that story.
Rebbeca Gentry (34:58):
I love that. And I am going to be asking you to find some photos of that as well.
Rob Simmelkjaer (35:10):
Unbelievable and exemplary of where you've been. You're almost like
Forrest Gump in a way of running. You've been in
so many places, in so many rooms and races and
connected with so many of the greats of the sport that
you really have seen it all through your own eyes.
And you mentioned writing and the role that you as
(35:33):
a journalist have played in sport. We have a journalism
award at New York Road Runners, we just gave it
out yesterday at our media luncheon to a gentleman named
Chris Chavez who was this year's recipient. He's the editor of
Cityist Magazine. Many of us know him. And that award
is named after George Hirsch. And it's because of your
(35:55):
contributions as a journalist to this sport running Runner's World
Magazine, all the things you did really put running in
the mainstream of society. And I'm just curious now, George,
you talked about that running boom of the seventies. How
do you think running has stayed culturally relevant all these
(36:17):
years? And what do you think about what's going on
now? Because we have a running boom of our own
happening now, as you can see looking around our expo,
as you can see from the fact that our races
are all sold out in New York. What do you think
is behind running, staying relevant, and continuing to grow in
its popularity?
George Hirsch (36:37):
I think right now we are in the third running
boom, and I think it's bigger than either of the
ones that came before. I truly believe it. I think
there's a few catalysts for it. The pandemic obviously caused an
awful lot of people who were forced to stay at
(36:58):
home. They couldn't go to work, they couldn't get out
of their house to do much, but they could go
out and run and boy did they. And we're getting
more entries, not just for the marathon, but for all
of the roughly 40 to 50 events that we put on each
(37:20):
year. They're all sold out now. The demand is huge.
And also, I think the other thing that has totally
transformed the sport, you mentioned Joni, she was a pioneer
is and Kathrine Switzer, who's going to be here later
(37:41):
today, women in the sport, that first five borough marathon when
I said there were 2000 people, 100 were women. Now
we're seeing at our races often 50/50 and sometimes even
(38:02):
more women than men. That's just driven this sport and
I think it's huge. I think this sport even has
a long way to go. And it's not just a
sport, it's an activity. It's a way of life and
it's a lifestyle. And I think that's what's important. And
(38:26):
then people like Galloway, the Galloway method, he came along
and he gave us permission to do some walking during
a marathon. That was unheard of when I talked about
1969 and 1970s. No one would dare stop and walk. Now
(38:48):
you can incorporate it into really quite a respectable marathon,
walking a minute every five minutes or every mile or
whatever your Galloway program is. So I think all of these
things have made running more accessible. And the more people
(39:12):
see, there'll be maybe two million people on the streets
out there on Sunday. And a lot of them are
going to say, " I could do that maybe next year."
Rob Simmelkjaer (39:26):
That's absolutely right. And you nailed it. I talk about
that all the time. The way this sport has grown,
what's been driving it and the role of women, no
question about it. And one story that I have to
ask you to talk about, there's no interview with you,
George is complete without talking about a very special woman
(39:48):
to you in your life and your late wife, Shay. And
Shay, of course, if you know George, and you've known George
for a long time, you know how important Shay was
in your life and she was a runner. You met
her at a race. That's my understanding. And so running
has been such a big part of your life and
(40:11):
perhaps no more so than the day you met Shay.
George Hirsch (40:16):
Well, thank you for that. My wife Shay passed away
10 years ago, and I think about her every day.
So back in 1988, I was asked by NBC to do
commentary for the Olympic Games, which I had done in
'84 and subsequently in Barcelona in '80, in '92. And the Olympic
(40:44):
trials for the men's marathon was held at the New
Jersey Waterfront Marathon in conjunction with the people's race. So
to do my homework, my job then I was publisher
of Runner's World, but I was doing commentary for the
(41:05):
games in Seoul, Korea. And so I went out to
the marathon the day before Standard Expo. This is what
it was. It wasn't this big, it was a much
smaller race. But you know the routine, there were seminars
(41:26):
not on like this. And I was standing at the
Runner's World booth and this woman walked by and she
had this beautiful smile and blue eyes and dark hair.
And I just took a look at her and it
(41:47):
was palpable. And she kept walking so I followed her.
And I came up to her and I just said, "
Hi, how are you?" And she said to me, " Are
you George Hirsch?" And I would've said yes under any
circumstances at that point. And she said, " You did me
(42:11):
a favor and I want to thank you for it." And
I said, " Well, what was that?" And she said, " Well,
some months ago, a friend of mine asked you to
send a training program from Runner's World Magazine to me
because I'm training and tomorrow I'm running my first marathon." You have
(42:33):
to remember, there were no online, there was nothing. So
it was something that I had put in the mail and
it wasn't an unusual request and I hadn't given it
a lot of thought. I remembered the friend who requested
it, didn't know who I sent it to. And I said, "
Well, great. What are you looking for?" And she said, "
(42:54):
Well... Like every one of you who runs your first marathon... " Well
just to finish." And then she said, But you know,
I wouldn't mind coming back and running the New York
City Marathon this fall and seeing if I could qualify
for Boston." I said, " What do you need?" She said, " Well, I
(43:15):
just turned 40 and I need 3
Well, how would you like to have dinner with me
tonight?" And she said, " Well, thank you but no." So
I wanted to prolong the conversation. So I walked her
out to her car at the race headquarters hotel out
(43:39):
there and kept the conversation going. Next morning, I have
a big breakfast with friends and so on. And I
go to the race and the elite runners, the Olympic
marathon trials started 15 minutes before the people's race and
(44:01):
I'm there for that. And I have to confess, I
had lost all interest in that. And they start, and
I walk into this sea of, I think it was 3,
500 people. And you know what it's like. There was no way
I was going to find her. And the gun goes
off. And I waited until every last person crossed the
(44:25):
starting line, and I started to jog, looking to my
left, looking to my right, looking, looking, looking. Finally, at
five miles, there she is, she's up ahead of me.
She's listening to her tunes. And I came up alongside
of her, Rob, and I'm trying to be super cool,
(44:50):
and I said, " Hi." And she said, " What are you
doing here?" And I said, " Well, actually, I was looking
for you." And we started... I have to tell you
this. It was a period for a number of reasons,
(45:11):
including I remembered a broken shoulder that I had. I
hadn't run a marathon for four years. Anyway, we start
running together and then the next thing you know, it's
life stories and we're talking and we get to, I don't know, 23,
(45:31):
24 miles. She says, " I'm really getting tired." And I said, "
Well, welcome to the marathon. This is what you're supposed
to be." And we went quiet. 3 hours, 37 minutes
and one second later, she crosses the finish line. I
(45:53):
step aside because I don't have a number. And off
she goes, by now she knew where I worked or
whatever. And so I got to work early the next day, which
I used to do. I don't anymore. And the phone
rang and she said, " I just calling to thank you
(46:17):
because now I'm qualified for the Boston Marathon thanks to
you. Is there any chance I could take you to
lunch this weekend? Any chance?" And anyway, it was a
little more complicated after that. And she was moving from New Jersey
(46:38):
back to Idaho where she lived, and it took a
while but the next year we got married. So that's it.
Rebbeca Gentry (46:46):
Yeah. The joys of being a race director to chase
your love.
Rob Simmelkjaer (46:54):
Absolutely. Still, I've heard it from you a number of
times. I haven't heard a better love story then that
in a race. And I think it really sums up
the role running has had in your life. And of
course, you've had an incredible role in the life of
running and the growth of running. And our organization here
(47:14):
at New York Road Runners, our event here at the TCS
New York Center Marathon, George, congratulations again on this award
today. Such a privilege to present it to you. So
great to have you here on Set The Pace, you have your own
podcast by the, which we should tell people about.
George Hirsch (47:30):
Yeah, with Amby Burfoot, it's called Running
Sport. And I'm often on the same side that Becs and
Rob are on and it's fun doing this.
Rob Simmelkjaer (47:44):
Yep, it really is. You do a great job. George,
thank you so much for being with us. Congratulations. Thank
you for everything you've done for New York Road Runners,
for the TCS New York City Marathon, and we will
see you soon. Thank you very much.
George Hirsch (48:01):
Thank you. And thanks Becs, and thanks Rob. I'm honored to
be on your program.
Rob Simmelkjaer (48:07):
Thank you. All right, well this has been amazing. Now,
for those here live with us, we're going to take
a 15- minute break. Gabby Thomas is in the building.
I have seen Gabby. She's backstage.
Rebbeca Gentry (48:18):
Go and tell everyone else in the expo.
Rob Simmelkjaer (48:20):
We'll be out in a moment. Olympic gold medalist Gabby
Thomas will be back on stage with us in just
a couple of minutes. For those online, thanks for listening.
You can just find the next episode because it's going
to be right after this one on Set the Pace.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
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