Olympian Kenneth Rooks on Resilience, Trusting Faith, and Chasing World Titles

Episode Transcript
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Kenneth Rooks (00:00):
The hardest part of the steeplechase is trying to finish
as fast as you can, especially that last lap. Trying
to get over those barriers when your legs are heavy
and you're really tired and you're hurting. The hardest part
mentally, it's just like any other race. Being mentally prepared
to make good decisions in the race, to respond well

(00:22):
to adversity if the race doesn't go as you expected
it to go, or just responding to the different physical
responses that your body has.

Rob Simmelkjaer (00:36):
Hey, everybody, and welcome to Set the Pace, the official
podcast of New York Road Runners, presented by Peloton. I'm
your host and the CEO of New York Road Runners,
Rob Simmelkjaer. And with me back from London here in
the United States of America, Peloton instructor, Becs Gentry. And
Becs, nice to have you back in the States.

Becs Gentry (00:56):
Hi. Yeah.

It must have been so nice for you to get
back and see-

It was.

... Austin and Tallulah. What was the reunion like?

Well, T was sound asleep because I got back late
on Sunday night but the Monday morning reunion was just
wonderful. I had to try my best not to cry
because you don't want to make them think that work
is bad or makes mommy sad when she's away. So
it was very much happiness and, " Here's all the bunnies
that I got you," so it was great. And honestly, I

(01:26):
think by the end of the day yesterday she was
like, "Are you going back to London soon?" Because I was
like her shadow, I just kept kissing her and hugging
her all day yesterday. So I think now she's... She's
at the daycare school today and she was quite happy to go,
so yes.

Glad you're back, mom-

Yeah. Glad you're back but-

Let's move on now. Yeah.

... good stuff to do, friends to see. Bye.

Well, that's beautiful. I know you had a good time over there-

Absolutely.

... being back in London but it's great to have
you back-

Thank you.

... in New York. And Becs, we've got lots going
on, of course, as we always do here in New
York. This weekend, one of our favorite races, at least
one of mine, on the annual calendar from New York
Road Runners, it's Harlem Week in Harlem. We've got the
Percy Sutton Harlem 5K coming up this weekend. A very

(02:17):
hilly course. We'll talk about that in a second. It's
a great but a hard 5K. Have you run that
course, Becs?

I haven't. No.

The hill in that... I forget what mile it is-

I can imagine.

I think it's either Mile 1 or maybe early in
Mile 2 where you go up toward Convent Avenue and
City College and that whole area. It's the steepest hill
I've ever run in a race. It really is something else-

Wow. Oh, boy.

... and I ran it kind of like at an easy
pace last year, but it's just very, very challenging. You get
to go downhill a lot from there. But man, that is a
hill so-

Okay. We've got to get up to go down.

That's how it works. That's how it works. So hope
everybody who's running this weekend is ready. Hope you've been
doing some hill repeats because you're going to need that
strength getting up that hill in Harlem this weekend. And
of course, we had a great guest last week on
the show, Patina Miller, Becs, talking about her role as
a mentor for our Run for the Future program. And

(03:18):
those young ladies will have their big finish at the
Percy Sutton Harlem 5K so Patina will be out there
with that entire Run for the Future cohort and they'll
be joined by about 5, 000 other runners for that
great race in Harlem. So we look forward to that.

Yeah. That sounds like a wonderful weekend and big shout
out to Patina and her wonderful team running it. Talking
of running and those who are training, how's your training going?

Well, yes, let's talk training. So this was really my
first week on the full Becs Plan. I'm just kind of
getting into it. We tape this podcast on Tuesdays as
everybody knows. I'll-

We have a spreadsheet. We have a spreadsheet, everyone.

Yes, I've got a spreadsheet now week by week from Becs,
exactly what she wants me to do. It's interesting. First,
I'll start by saying that we... The weather is always such
a factor and we had a lot of heat and
then we had a really nice, cool weekend this past
weekend around New York. Some beautiful, cool crisp mornings. It
felt like fall suddenly just came in around August 1st.

(04:24):
I'm sure everybody around here could relate to that from
last weekend. It was beautiful and I was able to
get some really nice runs. And part of what I find,
Becs, is that when it's time for me to do
either speed or especially a really good tempo workout, the
best place for me to get a tempo workout in
is inside of a race. If I can find a
race somewhere, where there's other people running and a race kind

(04:47):
of atmosphere, it's so much easier for me to keep
up some speed in that kind of environment versus out
there on a track by myself. So I did manage
to find a local run, part of a running series
in Connecticut that I ran on Saturday. It was great.
Had a really good six mile run, another six miles
on Sunday. But I started, did my first Becs- generated

(05:09):
speed workout today on the track. And whew, that was
tough. Becs had me doing six- mile repeats and she
wanted me to run at about a 6
and I got through about four, Becs. And then, I think I
slowed down a little bit after that. I'm working towards

(05:29):
it. I still got some work to do, I think, to be able
to manage that speed that many times. The air quality
wasn't great either. Today, we got an air quality alert-

I was going to say, the air quality has been pretty bad-

... going on.

... but that's why I'm such a big advocate of
the tread because you get on and you set it
and that's the speed you're at. It takes a lot
of energy to keep checking that watch and it's somehow
disheartening sometimes when you are in an area where perhaps the signal isn't
as strong as it could be. And it's not quite

(06:01):
registering, it's taking a second, and then you might overcook
yourself trying to hit that pace when, actually, you are
physically running that pace. It's just the technology hasn't caught
up to you. And so, that's why I do love
hitting these workouts on the tread when you can.

I think I'm going to do that starting next week. I agree. It's easier.
It's more exact. You can dial in exactly the speed
you need and then you just got to keep up with
the darn belt, right? So you just do it that way-

Yeah. Exactly.

So I think I'll do that-

Your lower back would tell you if you're not.

Yeah. I mean, the good news is I feel great so-

Good.

... I think I'm going to... The other thing that's big about
my new plan with Becs is that Becs has me running, at least
if I follow the plan exactly, six days a week.
I've never really run six days a week. I've ran
four days a week when I was training for Berlin.
Becs, what's your thinking around the number of days of

(06:58):
running versus rest for folks out there? And what do
you think is optimal for most people, especially if they're
trying to achieve a PR?

Yeah. The thing is, and I said this to you
Rob, I will over- prescribe rather than under- prescribe somebody
to run because there's always going to be variables in
our weeks when life gets in the way. And so,
I'd rather have you look at your personal, your professional,
and your running schedule and just see how cohesive they can

(07:27):
all be. Rather than worrying that you've only got four
or five days of running and trying to squish everything
in and over- stressing yourselves. If you see six days,
you get six done, fantastic. But I will say that on the
flip side of that is, yes, there's six days of
running in there. Three of them are... Well, one is
your long run, which is the most important and that's

(07:49):
the last one you ever drop of your whole week.
Then, you have Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, three other days
of easy miles. And this is so important for runners
to understand easy miles. Your easy pace is a whole lot
different to your marathon pace, your goal marathon pace. And

(08:10):
so, that is just supposed to be a really pleasurable
run that you can pop out with friends. You can
run to the bakery. You can do... Run to get
some chores done. I'm not hoping that you're going to
be drenched in sweat and couldn't walk into your local
grocery store if that's where you needed to end your 40-
minute run. It's just something to think about, to add
into your day to just get some steady pace in. They are

(08:31):
the ones that you drop if you need to because
you can walk. Say, you're going to have a day
with family walking around a theme park or you're going to
a city and... They are the ones that you can reduce, drop
if you need. If you're going for a PR, you
want to keep the speed work in and you want
to keep the long runs in. If you're not going
for a PR, drop the speed work, keep the easy

(08:52):
runs. So this is when you got to talk to
your, coach. But every-

That makes so much sense.

Yeah. It's really going to be... Four days is the bare
minimum of what I would expect people to be running
if they're taking it seriously because that's what you really
want your body to adapt to. Because this is stress
on your body and you don't want to jump into
a long distance race and surprise your poor body and
expect it to function well the next day. Because trust
me, it won't function well the next day. You may

(09:18):
complete the race and you may do it in a good
time for you. But the week or two after that,
your body's not going to be happy with you. And
that's not cool because you probably have 101 other things that
you have to do in that week after. So yeah, we've
got those six days, Rob, as a safety net. I feel like I
know you well enough that you're a pretty driven human.

(09:41):
Then, I think you're going to be doing everything you
can to get them in. There's going to probably be
one or two little texts that I get of like, "
I just am slammed."

There's a couple of days that are hard for me, yeah.

Yeah.

Especially when I'm traveling from this Connecticut to the city and there's commute time and all that involved-

Exactly. And we will work them... That's why you have a coach to work it out. I'm the one who sits in front
of that spreadsheet. It's one of the thousands of spreadsheets
you have in your life that you don't have to
be in control of and will adapt on the fly
as and where we need.

I love it. I love it. Well, that's great advice. So yeah,
she's got me out there working the track this morning.
I'm going to get on that treadmill next week or
maybe even this week to try to get another speed
run in. So we'll keep you posted and we hope
all this is good advice for you too, as you
all are out there training for New York, many of

(10:31):
you. Maybe Chicago, maybe Berlin, but we are into it
now. Most people are into their marathon training plans if
they're running New York as we sit here in the
first week of August. So it's coming. We're excited for
you. Well, Becs, we've got a great, great guest coming
up today. We've been so lucky to have all of

(10:51):
the kind of incredible running talent that's out there in
Provo, Utah. We've spoken to most of them. Of course,
we've spoken to Conner Mantz and Clayton Young, the incredible
American Marathon duo. They train out in Provo, Utah under
the coaching of Ed Eyestone, the great BYU coach. We've had Coach Eyestone
on the show as well, talked to him. And so,

(11:13):
today, we've got another member of that superstar crowd out
there in Utah. This one though is not a marathoner.
He specializes in the steeplechase. That's right and he's on
his way to the world championships in Tokyo. Kenneth Rooks
is going to be on the show today. And you
know, Becs, I can't wait to just find out more about

(11:35):
the steeplechase and what it is and why they're jumping over
this barrier into a pool of water and-

Yeah. He's going to explain-

... how they run with the left feet-

Oh my gosh. I mean, it's just mind- boggling to
me. I'm from the countryside and you'll hear our conversation
divert a little bit. Man, I'm not going to give
it away because I think it was pretty funny. There
was a real professional runner versus countryside girl here having
a conversation.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was great.

And it worked well, but he is an absolute legend.
And yes, I was in awe. That was a really great
conversation so I'm very excited for everyone to hear it.

Yeah. So I can't wait to hear from our steeplechase champion,
Kenneth Rooks. And then, for today's member moment, a little
bit later on, Meb interviewed Ottilia Demeter who PR- ed
in the 2021 TCS New York City Marathon while wearing a
shirt that said, " I am running with a brain tumor.
What is your superpower?" Her incredible story and her superpower,

(12:36):
and that is a superpower if there ever was one,
is coming up a little bit later. And then, Meb
will return with his mile- by- mile countdown to the 2025
TCS New York City Marathon. Today, it's all about his
best advice for taking on Brooklyn's big five- mile stretch
down 4th Avenue, Miles 3 through 7, long, flat, and

(12:58):
full of energy. That's coming up as well.

Try the Peloton app for free and access classes for
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(13:23):
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We are based in New York City, of course. But
somehow, Provo, Utah keeps making its way onto the show.
That's where today's guest, Kenneth Rooks, trains alongside past Set
the Pace guests and Olympic marathoners, Conner Mantz and Clayton
Young. All under the guidance of the legendary coach, Ed
Eyestone, who's also been on the show. Kenneth is a 25- year-

(14:02):
old steeplechase runner who shot to international prominence with a
surprise silver medal at the 2024 Paris Olympics. A native
of small town, Washington, and a BYU alum. He's built an
astonishing resume over the last couple of years, NCAA champion,
Olympic medalist, and now a three- time US champion. He

(14:23):
is getting ready to represent Team USA at the World
Championships in Tokyo and he joins us just days after
winning his third straight steeplechase title at the USA Track
and Field Championships. Kenneth, it's great to have you on
the show. Welcome.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Honored to be here and talk about
it with you.

What a resume. I mean, I feel like it's kind
of come about and gone off the charts in the
past year. But before we dive in to how you've
gotten to where you are, Kenneth, please, can you explain
to our listeners what is the steeplechase?

Yeah. So the steeplechase, it's not very well known in
part because it's not really run in high school very
often. It's mainly run collegiately and professionally and in the
Olympics. But it's 3, 000 meters or seven and a
half laps around a 400- meter track and seven of

(15:22):
those laps have five barriers that you have to hurdle
or jump over. And one of those barriers, each lap
has this water pit after it, which... All the barriers
in the water pit makes it fun and also interesting
to watch. But yeah, so we get our feet wet

(15:44):
once a lap as we're going over the water jump
but that's the steeplechase.

It's super cool to watch. I actually did watch it
in Paris-

So did I. Yeah.

... last year and it was really... I mean, I love it. I've always
thought it's the most intriguing thing. I'm obviously from England
and I always think of it as something that may
have come from the farmlands or people jumping over fences
and... Just something in that elk and I, shamefully, don't know the

(16:16):
history and how steeplechase was born. But in my mind,
it was from farmland. I don't know.

Yeah. Well, I think you're right. Well, the steeplechase name
comes from running from a steeple to a steeple or
from a church to a church across the country, hopping
over things and running through whatever. They also have a
steeplechase for horses-

That would get-

... and that one's more like cross country. So steeplechase
on the track is-

That was it. That's more my upbringing, was definitely countryside and horses.
So yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.

Kenneth, I watched it in Paris too and I really
have to ask about the feet being wet, right? I
mean, you jump over this barrier, you're running through a
small pond, and then you got to come out and run
the rest of the lap. What is that like? I
mean, how do you react? You get used to it obviously. But is

(17:10):
there a technique? Is there a strategy or a way you just learned
to deal with running with wet shoes?

Well, part of... I mean, just running with wet shoes
is trying to make sure you have good shoes that
shed water well. And the shoes that they make these
days do a really good job at shedding water. So
you're not holding extra water in your shoes, it doesn't
feel like your feet are sloshing around. I actually don't

(17:40):
really feel that much of a difference. I run without
socks but my shoes are really good. My feet don't
slide around. It doesn't feel that much different running with a
wet foot or a dry foot actually.

Wow.

Wow.

That's fascinating.

Okay.

You know I-

So you have essentially deleted what most runners would... Like,
most street runners, I would say, would think is the
hardest part of the steeplechase AKA the wet feet. So what
is the hardest part of the steeplechase for you both
mentally and physically?

Well, I mean, physically, I mean, the hardest part of
the steeplechase is trying to finish as fast as you
can, especially that last lap. Trying to get over those
barriers when your legs are heavy and you're really tired
and you're hurting. That's probably the hardest thing is just,
like, staying relaxed and focused on the technique, so that

(18:38):
you can get over as cleanly and smoothly. Like, you
know that you're not through until you get over that
last barrier so that's probably the hardest part physically. I
mean, the hardest part mentally, it's just like any other
race. Getting ready for it. Being mentally prepared to make

(19:00):
good decisions in the race, to respond well to adversity
if the race doesn't go as you expected it to
go, or just responding to the different physical responses that
your body has during the race. Yeah. It's the hardest
thing mentally. Yeah. Getting over those barriers, you just got

(19:21):
to have confidence and just go for it. I've done
enough practice that it feels like running. It's become more
natural to me just hurdling and jumping over those barriers.

Those barriers, Kenneth. And the other thing about them is
they're not like hurdles where if you hit one, they
fall over and you can just kind of keep going
or run through them. Those are solid barriers. They are
not moving for anybody, right? So if you hit one
of those things, you're going down, it would seem to me.

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely and I have gone down before. And
yeah, I've also had some bruises from hitting those barriers.
Yeah. When we practice, most of the time actually we'll
use hurdles just to reduce the amount of possible injury
if we mess up in practice. But yeah, those barriers,

(20:15):
they... I mean, it allows you to step on them
which is good for the water jump because I step
on the barrier and push off on the water jump
so I can get a little further out. That way,
I can just keep one foot wet, one foot dry
going over the water jump. But yeah, it's nerve wracking
if you hit one.

Yeah. How high are they?

They're three feet for the men and they're 30 inches
for the women.

Oh, wow. Wow. I always wondered that because I've seen
a lot of you guys push off the back one
and then as you say, it gives you much more
of a projection past the deeper water to hop on
out on the other side and keep your stride, I suppose.

Yeah.

But that... Wow. Okay. Three feet, that's a lot higher
than a hurdle, right?

Well, it's the same height as the 400 hurdles for
both men and women.

Okay. Wow. It seems higher. I don't know why. Maybe because they're wider-

I think it's the way it looks. It's so broad. It's so wide-

It's so broad. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. My goodness.

This is really interesting.

Wow.

I-

Yeah. I know-

... I was fascinated by it in Paris. I really was.

Same.

Yeah. It's fascinating to watch. And Kenneth, I know that
you started running in middle school as so many elite
runners do. But I got to figure you weren't there in
6th grade, 7th grade thinking, " I'm going to be in
the steeplechase someday. That's the event I really want to
run in." How did you come to the steeplechase? What
was the progression of events and distances for you?

Definitely in middle school I didn't think I was going
to be running the steeplechase, let alone being in the
Olympics for sure. I actually started the steeplechase in college.
I didn't do anything with it in high school. But
when I was getting recruited to run at BYU, Ed Eyestone, my coach,
and he is still my coach now, he thought that

(22:03):
I'd be good at it. And that was partially because I'd
played some other sports. I played basketball in high school
and I grew up playing baseball and soccer. And so,
because of the nature of playing multiple sports, he's noticed
that usually those kind of athletes are a little bit
more athletic. They take to the hurdling better. And I
had learned a little bit of the hurdle technique in high

(22:26):
school, just because I worked out with the hurdle group a
little bit my freshman year in high school. But yeah,
getting into college, I took to the technique and the hurdling
really quickly. It was new to me. My favorite event
in high school was The Mile and I did not like
the two mile and the steeplechase is a little bit
shorter than two miles. So I was unsure about how

(22:49):
that would play out but I was curious. I wanted
to try it out and Coach Eyestone had faith that I
could be good at it. And I tried it out
my freshman year in college and I had a good
first steeplechase and I kept getting better and better. And
at the end of the year, I actually ended up
qualifying for nationals collegially in the steeplechase. So it was a cool

(23:13):
progression and had a lot of success as a freshman
just out of high school. And then... I mean, I've
continued to get better from there.

Wow. It's been a journey for you and I think
it's not totally unusual in the US. I have been here
eight years and I still get my head around this
longevity that people have, especially for your age. You've just
been going since middle school all the way through to where
you're at now. Aside from, you did take a couple

(23:44):
of years off, right? Partway through your college time at BYU,
you decided to take a break from competition and serve
a mission in Uganda for your church which is just... I
have so much admiration for that. And talk about what
that did for you, focusing your life on service and
your faith instead of competitive sports.

Yeah. Well, my faith is very important to me, especially my
faith in Jesus Christ. It's more important to me than
anything else in my life. And so, I was more
than willing to take a two- year hiatus, two- year
break from competitive running and from school to focus on

(24:32):
serving others and serving God. As a missionary, my main
purpose was to invite others to come into Christ. It
was really cool to be a missionary and see how
that helped lift others and bring them hope. And it
brought me hope as well. It changed me as it
was really cool to serve others regardless of whether they

(24:53):
accepted our message or not. Yeah. I mean, I just...
I also just trusted that during that time, I... There
was a lot of other teammates that I had had
when I was at BYU that had been missionaries and
they had gotten out of shape. I got out of shape too.
But they were able to get back into shape after

(25:15):
coming back from the mission. I mean, I got out of
shape. I gained 25 pounds in the first nine months
of being a missionary. And then, I mean, I... That was
the most... I hit 170. Right now, I'm like 142-
ish right now.

What was the biggest challenge of staying in shape while
you were on that mission?

Yeah. Well, it's a lot of unfamiliar food. A lot of oily, starchy,
high calorie foods, and it was great. And it's also
stressful too and I wasn't necessarily taking as much time
to exercise. I was trying to exercise for about 30
minutes a day because that's kind of what the routine
was for us. So it was a lot less exercise than

(25:56):
I was used to, even though we didn't have a
car. We were walking everywhere. Although there was at one
point later on our mission, we ended up getting a
car but I knew I was going to get out
of shape. I tried to run when I could. If
there was other missionaries I was with and they wanted
to go run, we'd go run for the 25 to
30 minutes. But I did hurt myself twice when I

(26:18):
was out there.

Oh, no.

I tried to race somebody a few months before getting
back from being a missionary or someone challenged me to
race just like a little sprint-

Race another missionary or a local person-

Another missionary.

Okay.

Another missionary. Yeah. And it was just Monday on one of
our days off and we'd been playing some soccer or
whatever. And afterward, they wanted to race me so I
raced and I tried a little too hard to win
and pulled my hamstring. So then, I couldn't run for
the last two months of my mission at all because
I pulled it pretty bad and I had to heal up

(26:53):
from that. I also... About six months out, I tripped
and fell and landed on a rock, burst my knee,
and then I had to hobble around for a few
weeks while that was healing and stuff. Yeah. It was fun.

(27:14):
But ultimately, I didn't answer part of your question. You
said, how did my mission help me? Being a missionary
is wonderful. There's a lot of positive things but there's
a lot of adversity that you face as well. And
so, I think my mission has also helped teach me
how to respond to adversity. And especially being a missionary,

(27:34):
how I respond with my faith to overcome some of
the adversity I face and that... That taught me with the
adversity I faced in my life, but also just the
adversity I faced with running as well.

Mm- hmm. Wow.

It makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

It does. It really does.

So what was the process like, Kenneth, of getting back
into the swing of things when you came back from
that mission? How hard was that? How hard did you
have to work? And also, I'm curious when you first
kind of ended up in Ed Eyestone's program. You went
to BYU so did you go right to Provo from that mission?

Yeah. So I went to BYU for one year before
I was a missionary and then I was a missionary. Then,
I came back. And because of the success that I
had before, everyone was like, " All right. Kenneth's going to
be great. He's going to get back in shape quickly,"
or was hopeful that I could get back in shape
quickly and... I did. There were some other missionaries that

(28:34):
got back a little bit quicker than me. I got
back in July and I was... I got back into
shape probably around January. January, February is when I was
back to like, " Okay. I'm fit again. I'm traveling and
competing for the team." And so, it was hard, especially

(28:56):
that first six months, especially getting back with my hurt
hamstring. And I had... Because my hamstring was hurt, I
had a max speed. I could only go 7
pace the first week. That was as fast as my
legs allowed me to go. I couldn't run any faster speed-
wise. And so, I had to let my hamstring heal
and I also had to get back into shape. I

(29:17):
remember the first workout that I did in the fall just
at the end of August with the team. The coach told me, "
All right. Let's see if you can go hang with
these guys for four miles at 5
were doing an eight miles at 5
went the first mile with them at 5
then second mile, I lost contact, went like 5

(29:42):
and then I went like 6
I ran 6
than a mile and a half with them at 5
then, I kept getting back into shape just slowly and
I just... Your body remembers eventually because you've been there

(30:02):
before. And 11 months after my mission actually, I was
able to be in good enough shape that I ran
faster than I did before. I was a missionary in
the steeplechase and I got 6
So I got back into shape relatively quickly but it
was a struggle. But that's just how it is-

It takes time. It definitely takes time. But I mean, it sounds like
you had so much goodness in your mission that kind
of carried through to giving you extra strength to keep
going. And I'm sure there were days where there was
sort of the competitor in you was like, " No, I

(30:46):
just want to hang with them for more than a
mile and I want to be there now," and a
little bit of impatience. But as you said, your faith
gives you that strength to believe it will come with
time, with work, with patience. And talking of that, you
kept your coaching faith, let's say, in Ed, which is

(31:09):
super cool. I think it's a really lovely part of
your story that even after you turned pro, you chose
to continue living and training in Provo and alongside your
BYU teammates as part of the Run Elite. And you've
got some epic, epic pals in your group. I mean,
you're a legend, then you've got Clayton, you've got Conner,
you've got one of my really good friends, Keira D'Amato

(31:30):
with you. So how has Ed's coaching shaped you as
an athlete and as a person with these awesome people too?

Yeah. I love training here in Provo and it's been
cool to see how our group has grown, especially over
this last year. Well, some of the guys like Conner
and Clayton, I was actually teammates with them in college
before they ran professionally. Clayton in 2019, my freshman year,

(32:02):
he was his senior year. And then, I was teammates
with Conner before and after I got back from my mission at BYU.
And it's an honor to train with them. Honestly, they
inspire me and it's been cool to have people like
Keira or Courtney Frerichs or just whoever it is coming

(32:23):
out recently. Dan Michalski, he got second in the steeplechase,
he came out here in May. But it's been cool
to see that group grow and all of the athletes that
I train with inspire me and we're all a little
different in the way our strengths are. And it's awesome
we can train together and push each other. But Ed

(32:45):
Eyestone has really lifted my vision, helped me have a
lot of confidence as a runner and as an athlete.
I look up to him a lot. He is a
very good example of balancing the things in his life
with also running and I think that's really valuable. And he is

(33:09):
also aware of all of our strengths and weaknesses. And
that's one thing that I appreciate about Coach Eyestone is
he helps us train to our strengths and helps us
race plan and race to our strengths. I feel his
love for us. We also call him Easy E. He's

(33:29):
a little bit more relaxed of a coach. But also,
he's also focused on putting the work in, keeping us
accountable too. Yeah. We love Coach Eyestone and he's also
just been there before with his success. He's a two-
time Olympian. And so, especially not something that has always

(33:55):
given me strength. I mean, now that I have been
an Olympian as well and a medalist, but just trusting
in his experience as well has been helpful. If my
mindset's going a little bit astray, he does a good
job at bringing me back to like, " Okay. Let's focus
on the process. Let's focus on what we can control.

(34:17):
Let's go out and just take advantage of the wonderful
opportunity we have in front of us." So yeah, I
love Coach Eyestone.

That's so funny. That's so funny. Sorry, Rob. But to
hear someone like Ed Eyestone be called Easy E with
the repertoire of athletes he has, has had, and as
you say, his personal career is like, I don't feel
like... Not knowing him, I don't feel like there'll be

(34:45):
anything easy about what he prescribes and maybe that is
his USP, his shining light, is that he's human. He
gets it. And he isn't this insane level of push
to you and your teammates. He's like, " You know what?
If I'm going to be nice about it and let
them live and let them roll with it, it's going

(35:06):
to have the best outcome." And clearly, he knows what
he's doing.

Yeah, yeah. He does. He also gives us space to
kind of... When we go race or when we work
out, he leaves some room for us to make it
into a masterpiece, I guess. That's not necessarily the best
way I... I've explained it before a little differently having

(35:31):
a conversation with someone. But he helps empower us, I guess, is a simple way of-

Yeah. He makes it your own and-

Yeah.

Yeah. I love that. Love that-

I wonder with this group, Kenneth, you've got these incredible
marathoners training with you, you've got people at your distance.
How does that work? How are you all training together?
Are you still going out and, like you described before,
trying to stay with Conner Mantz or Clayton Young for
a little stretch of time? Because You don't need to

(35:59):
run the distances they're running. But is it good for you
to go try to hang with them for a few
miles for the 3K that you're running?

Yeah. It is good for me. I mean, it depends
on what the focus of the workout is. It depends
on where we're at in the season. But sometimes our
workouts overlap and sometimes with the marathoners, they do more volume
than we do. So sometimes we'll go out and we'll
do part of the workout with them if we're doing something

(36:29):
on the road. So like, for example, if we're doing
maybe... They're doing three by three mile, maybe we'll do
two by three mile with them and try and stay closer to
where they're at or... Although it's really hard to stay
close to Conner. Conner does his thing. He's always out

(36:52):
there doing his thing when we get into the tempo
stuff and the longer stuff. Yeah. Sometimes, especially when we
do that, it's kind of nerve wracking to be like...
Coach is like, " All right. Go with them. Go with
Clayton or Casey Clinger or Conner for this period of

(37:12):
time at the start," and... Anyways, it... But to answer
your question a little bit better, we also sometimes will...
Sometimes what they do, we'll come over to the track.
So if we do 400s on the track, sometimes occasionally,

(37:34):
Conner and Clayton will do something like, " We'll need to
do 400s on the track, we'll do it with them,"
or we do 10 by 400 and then maybe like 8
by 200-

Get him into your-

... we're all just like in line-

... get him into your domain a little bit, right?
Get them off the road onto the track where you
can hang with them a little bit more. I'm sure
that feels good.

Yeah. It does. It does feel good. Or even if
we do a 10 by K, that's one we'll typically do together.

That's awesome.

When we get into steeple stuff, we're doing our thing.
When they get into marathon specific stuff, they do their
thing. But even if we aren't necessarily doing the exact
thing together, we usually meet around the same time.

Yeah. I love that. Okay. It will be remiss of us... Before
we part ways today, we'd be remiss to not talk
about the upcoming world championships in Tokyo. It's a mere
few weeks away really in reality. You've probably got it
down to the day. But you are known for having
this incredible patient racing style. You have a really strong

(38:37):
and confident finishing kick. Have you got a strategy for
your racing going into the world? Talk us through what's going through
your mind.

Well, I had a strategy going into the Olympics last year.
But that strategy of how we'd run that race, we kind
of formulated a little closer to the games. Right now,
getting ready for Tokyo, we haven't formulated that strategy yet
but I know that I can trust my kick. Ultimately,

(39:08):
I feel confident in a slow or a fast race.
And so, that's... One thing we'll do with our training
is to make sure that we're ready for those fast
paces that we know we're going to experience at the
World Championships this year. And our training in the steeplechase

(39:34):
specific stuff that we'll do will be to get ready
for that and the paces we'll be running will be... When
we hop into the race, it's not something that we
haven't experienced before, that we're familiar with. I mean, strategy-
wise, I know my kick is going to be there.
If it goes out slow, it's... I got to make

(39:57):
sure that I'm up towards the front before a move
is made. Because when it's slow and it's a wind-
up, it's better to be towards the front of the
move than toward the back. Because if you're toward the
back when it's slow and then it's a fast finish, it's just a

(40:17):
lot harder to respond as quickly to the move. And
I mean, the same could be said whenever a move
is made. But yeah, I mean, going out fast, we'll see.
I mean, last year at the Olympics, I was in
last place almost for the first half of the race
because it was going out fast. And it slowed down

(40:37):
and I was able to move myself up into position
for that finishing kick. And ultimately when it's fast, you
just have to go. Whether you're in the back or
in the middle or the front, just staying as relaxed
as possible. And so, those will be some of the
things that I'll think about getting ready for the World
Championships. But it'll be based a lot off of experience

(41:03):
I've had in the past and I honestly think that
the... Like, for example, last year, all my races getting
ready for the Olympics helped me have the experience I
needed to be ready to make the move that I
made at the Olympics just because I had... In all
of my races leading up to that, I had been
ready to make a really hard move with 800 to

(41:25):
go. And I didn't necessarily make that hard move at
the Olympics with 800 to go. I made it a little bit later.
Yeah. Just relying on the experience. And Coach Eyestone and I, we'll
talk about it and figure out a good race plan.
But definitely want to be in position to be kicking
for a medal again this year.

Absolutely.

Great.

Yeah. Well, you've got the best coach out there. You've
got, really, a tremendous resume. Congrats. So we didn't even
talk about your US championship, you just got out in
Eugene. So congrats on that and you're-

Thank you.

You seem to be really in peak, peak condition for
this run in Tokyo. So wish you all the best
of luck at the World Championships. Bring back some hardware
to Provo-

Yeah. And enjoy it-

They got quite a collection out there, so I know
they are expecting big things. Wish you luck and enjoy
yourself over there.

Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. I'll enjoy myself.

Good.

That's why we do it, right?

Exactly.

That's the idea.

Exactly.

Absolutely. All right. Great to have you and-

Thank you, Kenneth.

... yet another-

Thank you, guys-

... elite athlete on Set the Pace, Kenneth Rooks. New
York Road Runners is a nonprofit organization with a vision
to build healthier lives and stronger communities through the transformative
power of running. The support of members and donors like
you helps us achieve our mission to transform the health
and wellbeing of our communities through inclusive and accessible running

(42:50):
experiences, empowering all to achieve their potential. Learn more and
contribute at nyrr. org/ donate. After surviving cancer, Ottilia Demeter
took up running. And her first race ever, the New
York Road Runner's Mini 10 K, was an experience that
left her eager to continue. She was later diagnosed with

(43:11):
a type of brain tumor which slowed her down physically
but didn't stop her from running. In 2021, Ottilia ran the
New York City Marathon wearing a shirt that read, " I
am running with a brain tumor. What is your superpower?"
And along the course, she met another runner with the
same condition. Even on that hot day, she ran her
fastest marathon time. And now, she works as a certified

(43:34):
running coach and injury prevention specialist, leading training for the
Forest Park Runners Club and Team QCP.

Meb (43:42):
Thanks, Rob. Ottilia, welcome to Set the Pace podcast. How
are you doing today?

Ottilia Demeter (43:49):
I am doing okay. And first of all, I'd like
to thank you for the opportunity to be here today.
Honestly, I was terrified when I got the request and for a moment I
was... Thought about saying no. But then, I overcame the
initial shock and I thought someone maybe needs to hear

(44:10):
what I'm going to say.

Meb (44:13):
We are all excited to hear your story and congratulations
being a survivor. After surviving cancer, you made the decision
to start running. Can you take us back to that
moment and share what running represented to you at that time?

Okay. Let's go back to 2009. We often like to
think we are invincible until something happens that shakes us
through the core. That's when you realize that you are
just as fragile as anyone else. When I received the
news that I had cancer, I was in complete shock.

(44:52):
I felt sorry for myself. But deep down, I knew
I wouldn't let this define me. Long story short, running
didn't play a big part in my life at that
moment. A year later, after I was cancer- free, I
knew I needed a fresh start. I wanted to escape

(45:14):
my old life. So I packed my stuff, I packed
my bag, and then I ended up in New York
just four months after my last surgery. And all alone
in this massive city, running was the only thing that
brought me relief. And slowly, I fell in love with it.

Meb (45:38):
Amazing. Just incredible.

Yeah. It is.

Meb (45:40):
And how was your first race with the NYRR Mini 10
K? What was that experience like for you and being
new into the city?

Yeah. So yes, the Mini 10 K, I remember that
race very well. I was both excited and nervous. I
had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know
a lot about running. But I had connected with some
runners on Facebook and the Mini was the first time

(46:14):
we met in person. I was so happy. I believe
it was my happiest race ever. I ran it for
a while, every year for a while. But then, life
got busier. But still, the Mini will always have a

(46:34):
special place in my heart.

Meb (46:37):
Amazing. So 2009, you moved to New York and you had
diagnosed. And in 2021, you ran the New York City
Marathon while living with that brain tumor and wore the
shirt that said, " I am running with a brain tumor. What
is your superpower?" What were the feeling as you step
into the starting line knowing that people would see it?

We were in the middle of marathon training when I
found out that I had brain tumor. And I am
a very strong woman, but I needed time to process
that news. For a while, I thought I wouldn't be able to
run the marathon because I wasn't sure that I could
recover mentally. I mean, how do you deal with something

(47:21):
like that? But as usual, I came to terms with it
and deciding to wear that shirt that I did was
extremely difficult. I wasn't sure I should let people know
about my condition. It felt so vulnerable. But I also

(47:44):
realized that I couldn't keep it inside, it was too
heavy a burden to carry alone. Plus, I wanted to
others see that we can be strong enough to face
difficult challenges. So I put on the shirt, I walked
out the door. And yes, I was nervous. But I

(48:06):
knew there was no turning back and it was one
of the best decisions I ever made. The support and
the love from the running community were incredible. I met
people with similar conditions. They walk up to me. They

(48:27):
share their stories with me. And it made me realize
that I wasn't alone in this and it was a
huge boost. With every mile, I felt like the weight
is getting lighter. And the 2021 marathon was one of
the hottest ones. People were really struggling. Some dropped out, others

(48:53):
cramped up. I ended up cutting off more than an
hour of my previous time. And when I crossed the
finish line... Sorry. I knew I was going to be
okay. Whatever comes in my way, I will take it

(49:14):
on and come out stronger.

Meb (49:17):
You are definitely stronger. And people say, " Do the hard
thing," and you ran the marathon. You inspire people en
route. And to come across the finish line, you know can
do anything and be the powerful woman that you are
and we are so delighted that you shared that. You had the courage
to wear that shirt and people come up to you looking
as a role model to a trailblazer. But now, you

(49:40):
are currently training runners for the Forest Park Runners, for
the 2025 TCS New York City Marathon. What is the most
important advice you give your marathon runners?

It's hard because I think we should talk about many
things. But I think the most important thing is to
respect your training plan and that says everything. There are
so many social runs, invites from other clubs. And those
are fun, I know. But those are all additional miles

(50:14):
that are not included in your training plans and could
hold a lot of potential dangers like running more than
you should, running at someone else's pace. Those are little
things that add up and it could lead fatigue or
injury eventually. As my mentor, Coach Faith, told me one day, "

(50:41):
The earth wouldn't stop spinning if you don't show up
your face at every corner in New York City," and
that is very true.

Meb (50:51):
Just great. You inspire not just runners, but non- runners
as well. I'm pretty sure. I know sometimes we get
discouraged but to put in perspective to what you have
gone through or what you're going through is amazing. So your advice is
not only to the runners, but to the everyday human
being. You have taken on ultra running which asks a

(51:16):
lot of both body and mind, a lot of demand.
What drives you to those long distances and what do
you find yourself learning either about running or about yourself
during those long runs?

Ultra running is a whole different mindset. If one thing
I'm strong in, it's my mental toughness. Life made me
strong. Ultra running is a mental game and I absolutely
love the challenge it presents. It shows me how amazing

(51:50):
the human spirit is, how much we are capable of,
and it makes me feel incredibly strong. I believe I
can overcome my brain tumor more or anything as life
throws at me. Running is like a magical thing that

(52:16):
could save lives and I truly believe it has already
saved mine.

Meb (52:22):
Wow. Just incredible. You're a true champion, true hero of
life, and we are so grateful to have you here.
But running is therapy and for you to come to
a strange big city like New York where the running
community embraced you and to be able to help a little bit. But
for you to wear that, " I'm running with brain tumor.
What's your superpower?", you're a super human being and keep

(52:44):
doing what you're doing . and we're so delighted you are
with us as a member moment-

Thank you.

Meb (52:47):
... and best wishes as you continue with life.

Thank you. Pleasure was mine.

Now, it's time for today's Meb Minute.

Meb (52:56):
Thanks, Rob. Welcome back to my mile by mile countdown
to the 2025 TCS New York City Marathon. This week, we are
counting down two Mile 3 to 7 in Brooklyn. Mile
3, long, flat down 4th Avenue begins. Overall, Brooklyn segment
remains steady and runnable and a few minor undulations. This

(53:19):
is where you need to take that all in and time
to pay attention for pacing. I tell most people that
I meet that New York City Marathon is more like 23-
mile run because the first going up the hill and
down the hill, you don't worry about the pace. But
now Mile 3 to 7, you need to get to that
pace of rhythm to be able to get into a

(53:39):
good cadence and be able to just be yourself. Hey,
coach have got you ready to this point? Now, it's
time to get that rhythm. You haven't built up lactic
acid going up the hill or the downhill, now the
time to analyze and say, " Hey, what's my goal? I
want to hit those goals and paces." Mile 3 to
4, I remember sometimes you forget things. You are so in a rush

(54:00):
to get to the starting line of the TCS New
York City Marathon. In 2011, I remember I'm supposed to
have my Breathe Right on my nose. But unfortunately, I
realized it toward the end of Mile 2 that I
am going to Mile 3, my Breathe Right was in
my shoes. But you can't stop and untie your shoes, you

(54:20):
just got to deal with the circumstance and keep running,
getting through your rhythm, and I did that. And regardless
if the Breathe Right is on your nose, on your
feet, you can still a PR because you've been trained for
this. And my 47, 4th Avenue corridor, it is packed, crowd
tunnel, especially near the park slope. And Mile 7, viewing

(54:42):
favorite spots like 4th Avenue on Garfield Place. It's all
about soaking it all in. Just be in the moment, be
present. You still got a long way to go, but
it's time to evaluate your rhythm.

All right, everybody, that does it for another episode of
Set the Pace. We want to thank our amazing guest
today, the steeplechaser, Kenneth Rooks and Ottilia Demeter, New York
Road Runners member. If you like the episode, make sure
you subscribe. Give us a thumbs up on YouTube. Share
it. Tell your friends. We'd love to have more folks
join us here week in and week out as well.
Good luck to everybody out there. Marathon training season, it's

(55:17):
in full effect. Enjoy the miles. We'll see you next week.

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