Jasmine Abrams: Pleasure & Sexual Health Research

Episode Transcript
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Valerie Earnshaw (00:13):
I'm Valerie Earnshaw.

Carly Hill (00:14):
I'm Carly Hill.

And this is Sex, Drugs and Science.
Today's conversation is with Dr.
Jasmine Abrams.
Jasmine is an AssistantProfessor of community health
sciences at Boston UniversitySchool of Public Health.
She is also the founder ofSpiceXperience and co-founder of
Research Unlimited.

(00:43):
All right, Jasmine, thank you somuch for joining us today.
We're thrilled, thrilled,thrilled to be able to talk to
you.

Carly Hill (00:49):
Yes

Jasmine Abrams (00:50):
Thank you guys for having me.
I'm excited to be here.
So we have about 1,000,005things that we actually want to
talk to you about today, but wethought that we could start with
some of your work on the strongBlack woman schema.
Mhmm.

And we were hoping that maybe we could just
kick it off by asking you, whatis the schema?
How did you become interested init?

Yeah, so I guess I'll start with how I became
interested in it.
Um, when I started graduateschool, my advisor was working
on a research study, examininggender roles among Black women.
And her ultimate goal was tocreate a measure of gender role
beliefs, specifically tailoredto Black women.

(01:34):
And I was just, you know, brighteyed and bushy tailed as we
often are when we start graduateschool.
And I, I said, uh, is thereanything I can help you with,
you know, I'm like here to be ofservice and she's like, well,
I'm doing this study and itwould be great if I had someone
to help me, you know, go to thedifferent community locations

(01:56):
and collect data.
And so I went around and, um, Ithink I was able to do the
majority of the focus groupswith her.
We had eight focus groups forthat study, 44 women all
together.
And the very last question onthe interview guide was what
does it mean to be a strongBlack woman?
But I noticed that in everysingle group, the women told us

(02:21):
before we ever asked thequestion.
So it was very clear to me whenwe were doing this study that
this is something that's veryimportant and central to the
identities of these women thatwe have been interviewing.
And from our analysis, it reallyappeared to me that the strong
Black woman schema not onlyserves as sort of this ideal

(02:46):
representation of womanhood, ofblack womanhood, but also sort
of like a psychological copingmechanism that wraps up in it,
resilience and independence andthese multiple forms of strength
and sort of matriarchalleadership, whether or not you

(03:07):
have children.
And what we also observed wasthat it helped to facilitate the
survival of families in thesurvival of communities.
It's something that women notedwas apparent in their sort of
for-mothers, their ancestors,their other women in their
communities and families thatthey looked up to.

(03:30):
And it seemed like it wasaspirational for most women, but
in the same breath, we alsocould see that women were
overwhelmed by assuming all ofthe roles and responsibilities
of a strong Black woman.
And so that sort of led to someof the later work we did with
the schema, just examining, sortof behaviors and other

(03:55):
psychological constructs that itwas related to.
That was a long answer.
Oh.

No, no, that's We're here for all of it.
So we were also looking throughthis work and, and observing
that it feels like it's, it's abit of this mixed bag, right?
So I was, um, reading some ofthe quotes in the original
article first off,congratulations on this being

(04:20):
like your first, you know, babygrad school project.
And it being such a greatarticle, beautifully written,
it's been well cited.
Like it's,

Thank you

I mean, that's amazing, but I was really struck
and, you know, there's thisquote from one of your
participants who she said,you're supposed to be a pack-man
to carry it all on your back foryourself and nobody else,
emotionally and physically, thatstrain can lead to resilience.
And I think that strength iswhat got us where we are.
So, but then she goes on to say,we had to be strong because when

(04:52):
we wanted to fall back, therewas nobody there to catch us.
And that, you know, this quotejust broke my heart because, you
know, to me, it was reallylovely recognizing the strength
of, you know, herself and hercommunity, but just this visual
that I had of her falling backwith this pack on her back and

(05:13):
nobody there to catch her, Ifelt it was really striking.

Yeah.
And it was, and being in theroom and hearing women sort of
affirm her, like, yes, you know,like I feel you, it was that was
one of the main reasons why Iwas like, we have to look at
whether or not this isassociated with depression.

(05:38):
Um, like we just have to, andeven how women engage with the
mental healthcare system,because the idea of being this
strong Black woman is like, wehad some of our participants
that internalize it the way youjust spoke about where it's
like, I don't have a choice, butto embody this role.

(05:59):
So I have to be this way.
And then we had some women thatwere also like, well, I have
support like tangible supportpeople that I could fall back
on, but I need to do it aloneand independently because I need
to be able to prove to myselfthat this is who I am.
And so in, in the paper, it sortof emerged as a theme that we

(06:21):
called, I think it wasobligatory and volitional
resilience or independence.
And it was just clear thatindependence is key to these
women and it can manifest indifferent forms depending on the
type of supportive resourcesthat women have.
There's actually been somereally interesting books written

(06:44):
in the more like lay communityabout how to love a strong Black
woman, like how, how can you bein a relationship with a woman
that maybe does not want to bevulnerable or, or
interdependent.
And those are some of the keyelements of being in a, a

(07:05):
healthy relationship.
So yeah, some of those thingsemerged too.

That's super interesting.
And I mean, we'll get there in alittle bit, but that seems to
relate to some of your, u m,your work with SpiceXperience.
Right.
I saw that.
So this is company.
I mean, we'll talk about it alittle bit more later, but I saw
that you do sort of individualconsultations with folks and

(07:33):
that this seems like it'd besomething that would come up in
conversation as folks are kindof navigating their
interpersonal relationships,romantic relationships.

Yeah.
It's interesting.
So SpiceXperience has focusedmore on like sex as an act
itself, and less so the sort ofemotional, psychological, even
spiritual aspects that come withengaging in sexual activity with

(08:08):
other humans.
So I don't, that's interestingto me, I think those things
definitely informed the way I,sort of consult with people and
do the workshops, but those areless of the concerns that come
up for women.
And I have some ideas about why,I can talk about them now or
later.
I don't know which one.

Yeah no, go for it.

Okay.
So interestingly, this whole,the, the reason why I founded
the company, like bare my soulhere a little bit.
So I was 25 when I had my firstorgasm and I was thinking,"What
in the hell?

(08:51):
Like, why didn't you tell methis was what I was supposed to
experiencing?"

Were you surprised?
Were you like, well, just stop.
Or did you think you werehaving, or, sorry, I'm so
interested.
Did you think you were havingorgasms the whole time and then
you had one and you were like,

Yeah, I thought so, I conflated like vaginal
lubrication with this must be,you know, this is an orgasm, I'm
enjoying it as pleasurable.
But when I actually had thefirst vaginal orgasm, I, my
socks were completely blown off.
And I was like, I just startedasking everyone, every woman,

(09:30):
like, have you had an orgasm,like just started asking people
in my friends circle.
And then that expanded to myfamily.
I was asking women older,younger, and I was floored at
the number of people who eithersaid no flat out, no.
Or I don't know.
And I knew for the women whotold me, I don't know, I'm like,

(09:53):
no.

So I love this because I feel like you're, if
you're 25, were you, where wereyou in your academic trajectory?
Were you in grad?
Where are you?

I was in grad school.

You're in grad school, picture her, has an
orgasm and then she's like, waita minute.
What else is happening?
And then you go do some fieldresearch figure out, because I
feel like if you have it earlierin life, you know, you're not
going to engage in the, like,you know, Q and A or the
qualitative inquiry of thoserounds, you necessarily know

(10:30):
that's a really great point.

Definitely grad school is sort of, and just the
training you get on sort of howyou should think about things
and question consistently, andsort of always be skeptical and
critical.
That was definitely in my brainat the time.
And like part of myconditioning.
So it was happening with myquestioning of people like you.

(10:56):
So you never had to have, do you, have you tried, what are you
doing to try?
How do you feel about it?
You know, and I started lookinginto the research literature to
find that it's like, in some ofthese studies, the majority of
women have never had an orgasmor do not orgasm during partner
sex.

(11:17):
And this is specifically forheterosexual women.
And so when I start digging alittle more into the literature,
there's some scholars whohypothesize that because women
naturally, I guess I'm airquoting naturally want to please
other people like their primarygoal is to make sure their

(11:42):
partners' pleased first.
They don't see the same sort oforgasm gap is what they're
calling it.
And with women who are lesbiansor women who are bisexual, but
they see it with women who areheterosexual, because the
priority is always on the man.
And so it goes back into some ofmy strong Black woman research

(12:03):
where it's like, the priority isalways someone, not myself.
Okay.
Yeah, its a little connected

Yes, totally connected.
That's amazing.
Well, the thing that I oftenthink about with my scholarship
or my research is that I havethese like stigma lenses on and
I can see stigma everywhere.
I'm like, there goes thesquirrel there's no, that
squirrel might be prejudicial.
Like, I don't know.
So, so I think once you,especially in grad school,

(12:29):
whatever lens, like you'reputting on, I think it's, it's,
um, you know, you're, you put onthe right lens or you're in the
right place when you see theseconnections with lots of other
things.

Yeah, yeah.

Circling back to the schema.
So, okay.
So it seems like one of theoutcomes of like really kind of
internalizing this strong Blackwoman schema might be the orgasm
gap and you mentioned,

So I have new data I have not analyzed it yet,
but I cannot wait to run theanalyses to see like we actually
collected data, um, that we haveour strong Black woman measure.
And then we also have measuresof like sexual pleasure, sexual
satisfaction.
So I cannot wait to see if it'sactually related.

Oh, we're gonna, we're gonna need a part
two for them to come learn moreabout it.

Yes!

Well, you've also though found, I mean, you
found these interesting impactson mental health for the schema,
right.
So I was particularlyinterested.
You had this really kind ofbalanced take on the association
with depressive symptoms.
So you had noted that it's sortof, the schema is associated
with atypical symptoms of mentalillness, like functional

(13:47):
depression.
I think you said that might gounnoticed or misdiagnosed.
I thought that was reallyinteresting.

Yeah.
I, you know, it's so funny thatyou ask this question because
just today I was just scrollingmy Instagram feed and a woman
that someone that is I'm friendswith posted, that she has she's,

(14:15):
she has high functioningdepression.
And I was like, huh, I neverheard it.
Where did that way?
And she's a Black woman in adoctoral program.
And she's like in a lot ofpeople don't understand that.
And she sort of goes on to justtell this story about how,
because she's such a highfunctioning person, people don't

(14:35):
understand that she could alsobe depressed simultaneously.
And I think that's the kind ofway that depression often
manifests for Black women islike their entire lives.
Don't just shut down.
Because in many instances theyfeel like I can't, my life can't
shut down.
Like I have, I'm the pulse andthe lifeblood of this whole

(14:58):
movement, like called life.
And if I falter or fall or can'tbe there for everyone, then who
will be, so yeah, I even heardthis, I was on a radio show
maybe about two years ago and awoman called in and she's like,
you know, we were talking aboutthe strong Black woman schema.

(15:19):
She's like, this is such aninteresting conversation.
You know, just last week I wasreally having like a really
rough breakdown.
And if I could have checkedmyself into a place I would
have, but I am a single motherand I'm the primary caretaker
for my father.
Who's, you know, an older adultwith a chronic illness.

(15:41):
And I, you know, in my thinkingabout, can I go and check myself
in somewhere?
My, the answer wasautomatically, no, because who's
going to take care of mychildren.
Who's going to take care of myfather without putting them in a
situation of, you know, maybebeing in some sort of system
that might be later hard to getthem out of.

(16:03):
So those are some of the reasonswhy I think it might manifest
differently.
And I was really privileged tohave a counseling psychologist
on that paper to be able tooffer some perspective about how
practitioners might, you know,differentially evaluate Black
women, or also work with them inthe context of depressive

(16:26):
symptomatology.

That's fantastic.
I mean, one of the things that Iwas thinking about as you were
describing this is that, youknow, who did we make our
depression screeners for?
Like who was the basis for thosescreeners?
And so if you know, we were notincluding Black women in those
samples, then we're going tomiss those experiences.

(16:50):
And I think that, you know,there's a push at the National
Institutes of Health when you'redoing your basic social and
behavioral science and allscience, really to make sure
that you have representativesamples so that we, when we
first create our screeners orwhen we develop our treatments,
that they, they work foreveryone that we catch all of

(17:10):
these kind of diverse symptoms,maybe in all the different ways
that they manifest.
And this seems like to me, areally good example of why
that's so important.

Yeah.
I think it, you know, you'remaking such a great point and I
think it's one of the moreobvious for us as scientists,
ways that sort of systemicracism has manifested in
academia and in science.
And it's interesting to me thatI think it was only the nineties

(17:42):
that the NIH came out with theguidance about, like, if you've
ever written an NIH grant, youknow, you have that section on
inclusion of women minorities.
And I think it's also children.
Um, but there there's thisawesome scholar, I believe it's
Lisa Bullock.
Y'all will have to fact checkme.

It's probably Lisa Bullock, she is the scholar
of all the great things, so,

Oh, amazing.
Yeah.
So I think it was her, but shewrote this incredible article
about, that the, just thelanguage of that statement.
Yeah.
Women and Minorities

Yes, That's the title of her article and
yeah,

Yeah, yeah.
Which doesn't account for thefact that women might also be
minorities, you know, like wecould be both.
And then she, I mean, just doessuch an incredible job of really
explaining why that'sproblematic in science.
But I think to your point, likethis is one example of why it's

(18:47):
problematic, even the thinkingaround who should be included
women and minorities and thennot even recognizing that we
should account for theintersections of those
identities as well.

Right.
And it, it seems like, you know,something, when we're reading
about this work with the, um,strong Black woman schema that
we both have, you know, theseoutcomes or these associations
that are leading towards, um,things that threaten women's
wellbeing, but then also there'sthis resilience thread.

(19:21):
Right?
So it seems like, you know, theperception that I'm a strong
person that I can carry this onmy back, That that might have
some positive impacts for womenas well.
So Is that something you'velooked at or that you think
about in your work

Yeah, it is something I think about.
I remember when I was puttingtogether this study.
So the study that came out ofabout strong Black woman and
depressive symptoms wasactually, it wasn't a thesis, it
wasn't a dissertation, it waslike something I decided to do
in the middle that I don't knowwhy my advisor did talk me off

(19:56):
that ledge, but, I did it I'mthankful that I did and that she
sort of supported me in doingit.
But when I was talking with oneof my other mentors at the time,
and I was telling him, you know,I'm interested to see if it's
related to this and that allthese negative outcomes.
And he, he questioned me andsaid," How do you feel about

(20:22):
further pathologizing Blackpeople with your science?" And I
was like,"Okay." I was like, ithadn't even occurred to me that
I was taking something that islargely viewed very positively
and held in a very high regardamong Black women and sort of

(20:45):
demonizing it in the literature.
But I, so for me it was likeimportant.
And I'm glad that you picked upon from my work that I'm trying
to sort of balance the narrativea bit.
Yeah.
That, yeah, it was justimportant for me to make sure I
had that thread of like womensee this as something that is

(21:07):
good and they see it assomething that has resulted in a
numerous a number of positiveoutcomes.
So that being said, I do, I aminterested in looking at more of
the positive outcomes associatedwith the schema also, so that
there is a little bit morebalanced in the literature, but
I'm really happy that people areseeing that there are some

(21:31):
issues associated with how wesort of characterize Black
womanhood and, and the actionsand responsibilities and roles
associated with that.
And I think it has like sort ofrecognizing that has sort of
contributed to the narrative ofself care among Black women.

(21:53):
That's becoming extremelypopular right now.
I would say among all women, butdefinitely among Black women,
this resurgence or insurgence ofself care.
And even now we're seeing peoplestart to quote Audre Lorde a
little bit more about this beinga political act, being able to
care for myself in the face ofsystemic racism and sexism and

(22:16):
racist sexism.
So it's really incredible to seethat while it does have some,
some negative outcomesassociated with it, people do
see it as a positive, a positivephenomenon that is empowering,
that gives them a source ofstrength and a source of pride,

(22:39):
which also came up in that firststudy.
We did like being able to beproud of who I am in spite of
all these"isms" that I might befacing.

Carly Hill (22:49):
Is that the hope that you had for the work
originally?
Like what was your original likedesired outcome when you were,
you know, coming out with this,you know, like, was it more like
to address these sort of, youknow, the negative repercussions
of this schema, you know, or, orwhere were you hoping that it
was going to kind of go?

Honestly there, so there's another quote in the,
the from the focus groups.
I think it's in that first paperthat I published in 2014, where
one of the participants said,"You know, it's overwhelming,
you're doing all of these thingsfor everyone else.

(23:33):
And you're constantly puttingyourself on the back burner that
after years and years, that'swhen you start to see health
problems come up, that's whenyou start to see, you know, all
of these issues manifest,because we're all of this time,
you put everyone in front ofyourself, you never attended to

(23:53):
yourself.
"And just the energy in the roomin that moment and the weight of
those comments, she saidsomething like, you know,
spiritual anorexia.
And I was just like,"Oh wow."And that for me, made me think,
like, it just set my brain onfire, like, Oh my goodness, is

(24:17):
this related to negative healthoutcomes?
Can this explain or, you know,is this a mediating factor or
moderating factor?
And how can we, like, I startedbecoming really interested, but
I noticed the literature waslacking on a definition.
Like, what is it characterizingit?
So I was happy that we weredoing those focus groups and
able to put that out first sothat we had the foundational

(24:41):
work to be able to explore whatoutcomes might be associated
with the construct.

Can I ask, I do a lot, or I've been thinking
lately about, you know, my ownposition in my research.
And most of that has been, youknow, as a woman, why aren't I
doing more sexism research?
And as someone living with achronic illness, I'm really
interested overall in chronicillness, stigma, an illness

(25:11):
stigma, but I am not doing likeresearch on stigma, experienced
by people with my specificchronic illness in part, because
like it bums me out and it'sscary.
Like when I look at statistics,like they just, they, they
bummed me out.
They make me sad and they, youknow, it's nerve wracking a
little bit.
So I'm just curious as to likewhat it, what it has been for

(25:34):
you as a Black woman to do thistype of research and engage and
these findings as you're doingthem, or as you're finding them,
I guess.

Yeah.
This is such a great questionthat I don't think is ever
really talked about outside oflike colleagues who share
similar experiences.
I'm thinking about when like the,#BlackInTheIvory hashtag came
out and everyone was sort ofrattling off their experiences

(26:06):
about what it's like to be aBlack person in academia.
And one of the things that Icontinue with even during this
sort of resurgence and themedia's newly focused attention
on systemic racism andoppression.

(26:29):
It's, I feel like it's heavierfor me because this is my work,
you know, like racism isengrained in the fabric of my
work.
Sexism is engrained in thefabric of my work and then to
turn on TV or get on socialmedia or have conversations with
family members or friends.

(26:50):
And then it's also the centraltheme and all of those things,
it feels sometimes it feels likesuffocating.
Like I want to talk aboutsomething else, you know, I want
not my entire world to besomething that is really sad and

(27:11):
discouraging to think about andlook at.
And I, I remember a couple ofyears ago I was writing a paper.
We haven't gotten the paperpublished just yet.
But the paper was aboutanticipatory race-related stress

(27:31):
and its impact on cardiovascularhealth.
And we were trying to think ofcreative ways to like start the
paper.
A lot of people will notice thatI often start my paper with
quotes.

Mhm they are beautiful.

If the journal does not say, like, please no
stop, then, you know, it flies.
But in this particular paper, Iwas trying to think of like a
quote or some creative way.
And I thought, why don't we justlist, like, make the first page
a list of names of people whohave experienced, um, like

(28:14):
police brutality.
Cause that was what was trendingin the media at the time.
And I remember like working onthat first page and starting to
type up the names and I think Iwas maybe like 10 names in and
it was like, I was just floodedwith emotion.
Like couldn't even fit like, no,okay.

(28:34):
Let's not do this.
Delete, delete, delete.
This is like really heavy andoverwhelming.
Yeah.
So I think to answer yourquestion in a shorter way, it's
overwhelming sometimes.
It's exhausting.
Sometimes it's deeplydisheartening sometimes, but I

(28:59):
also feel like I am and in anincredible position of privilege
to be able to do this work, um,I'm sort of hopeful because the
work is being done and likegoing back to read articles that

(29:19):
were written about Black people,not by Black people in the
sixties or fifties or forties.
And I'm like, my God, thankfullywe are now on the scene and able
to contribute to theconversation.
So in that way, I'm like, itmakes me feel hopeful, that we
have a voice in science, aemerging voice, but yeah, it can

(29:44):
be rough.

Well, even in hearing you talk about it, I
think that I'm able to recognizemy own privilege and why I don't
feel like I have to do thesexism research.
Cause there's, you know, there'sa bunch of White ladies.
I mean, there's just a bunch ofwomen.
Like there's not as much of likea pipeline issue.
Like there's, there's, I feellike I can, I can sit back and I

(30:07):
can study something else becauseI think that there's great
scholarship out there on that.
I mean, I also think thatthere's great scholarship
already in the areas that I'mdoing scholarships.
So I don't know, but you know, Ithink when, it's a different
ball game, when you feel maybeyou like, no, I need to, I need

(30:27):
to contribute here and I need tolike represent these experiences
and make sure that this, thatthe science is accurate.
And, um, so I, so for me, that'sdefinitely a point of privilege
that I don't have to, you know,do, or IBD research, which is my
chronic illness.
That's still very small, but Ifeel like, you know, that's

(30:49):
doing okay, but at least for thesexism research more generally,
I feel like there's a lot ofhands on deck for that.

Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that.
It's, interesting.
A few weeks ago, my projectmanager for the study I have
going on in Haiti about stigma,um, was talking to me.
She said, she, we, so we're inthe coding phase of qualitative
research and some of theseinterviews are really heavy.

(31:19):
One of them, where we're talkingto women about accessing care
and experiences related tostigma, and maybe why they
aren't accessing care for the,those who choose to, have babies
at home instead of in hospitalor clinical setting.
And one of our participantssaid,"I would rather die at

(31:40):
home."

Wow.

And that's just like a microcosm of what we were
reading and encountering inthese interviews.
And she, my project manager did,all of the interviews and focus
groups.
So I like called her when I gotto that particular transcript.

(32:03):
And I'm like,"Oh my goodness."Like, this is like, Whoa, you
know, what were you thinkingwhen they said this?
And just sort of reflecting theparent.
She said, she had actuallytalked with her therapist about
it.
And her therapist was like,"Wereyou getting therapy while you
were doing these interviews?"And she was saying,"I wish I had

(32:26):
participated in some sort oftherapeutic practice while I was
doing these focus groups andinterviews because it did weigh
very heavily on me." And so itmakes me think about like doing,
doing my work in general withwomen of African ancestry and
often on topics that are heavy.

(32:49):
And about the role of therapyin, in this work, you know, it's
something that I don't thinkcomes up much, but I'm like,
damn, that wouldn't be importantto do.
I guess we should be in therapyafter this.

Well, I came really late to the realization.
So into some insight into whyI'm currently doing a project
that I'm doing and Carly workswith me on this.
So I have, um, you know, it'scalled a K01 study, so it's
several hundred thousand dollarsinto this research project and
it's all on substance usedisorders and families.

(33:28):
And, you know, I felt like I wascoming at this from like a very
scientific, like, you know,standpoint, like this is the
stigma literature, this is thedisclosure literature, and this
is what we need based on theliterature.
Right.
And then I- you know, one of myneighbors was asking me about it
and I just was like, hit in theface by, Oh yeah.
Maybe I have landed on thisresearch project because of all,

(33:51):
you know, the substance usedisorders that have unfolded in
my family and me just, you know,trying to figure that out in
some sort of way.
And, but it was just funny thatit was, you know, two years into
the project.
It's definitely a research isme-search moment.

Yeah.
And like we say that all thetime, at least in grad school, I
remember saying it all the timeamongst my peers, but I'm like,
it still rings true throughlike, even into my career.
The research is me search isdefinitely still happening.
Yes.

All right.
Well, we know, um, that you'vebeen doing some mixed methods
work or some mixed methodmethods, research focused on,
uh, sexual pleasure among Blackwomen and its relationships with
sexual behavior.
And so this is some maybe hotoff the press, this stuff, but
we were hoping that you might beable to share some of what

(34:50):
you've been finding, superexcited.

Carly Hill (34:55):
I'm on the edge of my seat right now, I'm serious.

So, okay.
Can I share how I got into this?

We want to know all of it.
How you got into it?
What you've done, tell us all ofthis,

Carly Hill (35:07):
Take us back to the top of the TED talk and walk us
through.

So, okay.
I mentioned before, like I hadmy first orgasm, when I was 25
and that sort of set off thisinformal research in my own
social network, like what what'sgoing on with you?
Have you ever had one of thoselet you know, and then looking
into the scientific literatureand it was at that point, it was

(35:32):
just mere curiosity.
Like people Googling randomthings.
It was like that sort of thing,nothing.
I was thinking about turninginto like a scientific interest
or anything like that until Iwas getting close to graduating.
This was at VCU and we werehiring a faculty member like to

(35:57):
join the department.
So we were doing interviews andI was attending all the job
talks because I was going tohave to give a job talk soon and
wanting to see what ones looklike.
And one of the job talks I wentto, um, her name is Tyranny.
I think her last name isLaurence.

(36:18):
Um, but I remember her firstname because she said, My first
name is Tiffany or Tyranny, likethe government.

Well done

That name will stick with me forever.
But she did her presentation andI've noticed as a person that
researches HIV and sexualbehavior, that it makes other
scientists who are not in thesex research world, sometimes
uncomfortable when I talk aboutsex.
And so I just l ove the way shestarted her presentation.

(36:49):
She said,"You know, I'm a sexresearcher, and today we're g
oing t o talk about sex, butwe're not g oing t o talk about
sex i n the way that mostresearchers talk about sex.
Most researchers tell you what'sbad about sex, the STDs,
unintended pregnancy, trauma.
I'm going to be talking to youabout how good sex is for you."

(37:11):
And I was like, say more! So shegoes through this amazing
presentation about how theylooked at.
They essentially prescribed sexto women with depression,
diagnose

I love this, prescribe sex.
They prescribed it.
This group has more sex.
This group just keep doing whatyou're doing.
Essentially

We want you guys to have sex three times a week,
and then they paired it.
They did another,arm-on-the-trial where it was
like, we want these participantsto do sex and exercise three
times a week.
This group does just exercise.
So long story short, theparticipants who were having sex

(37:57):
three times a week, like overhalf of them reduce their
depressant depression symptoms.
And, and I'm maybe misquotingher article.
This is what I remember fromlike the findings or something

(38:17):
similar to this.
So a lot of people wereexperiencing lower depression
symptoms.
And then several people in thestudy actually came off their
depressive medication.

Wow.

Like, wow, we can prescribe sex to be a thing,
you know, so this should be athing.
And I just, like, I rememberwanting to know who were her
participants.
And I looked up the studyafterwards and I saw that it

(38:51):
wasn't a very diverse sample interms of racial, ethnic
background.
And so I started looking intothe literature and I was floored
there.
At that time, there were maybetwo studies on Black women's
sexual pleasure, like explicit.

And you were in grad school in the 2010s
right or?
Right.
Or this is like 2014, 2014 twostudies.
Wow.
Okay.

I was like, but then you Google or, you know,
search EBSCO host or Pub Med orwhatever your preferred database
is.
And you can find ample studieson Black women in HIV, Black
woman in STDs, Black women inchildhood sexual trauma, Black

(39:40):
women and unintended pregnancy,like all the negative outcomes
that we associate with sex,plenty of research on Black
women.
But when we think about sex asmedicine or sex is, something
good for us or how Black womenare experiencing pleasure,
sexual satisfaction, we'reunderrepresented in studies with

(40:02):
women in general.
And then there are almost nostudies exclusively focused on
Black women in particular,

If you're doing your little Google Scholar
search near it like Black womenand sex, you're never going to
have sex again.
Like.

Exactly, exactly! The literature is
extremely fragmented and onesided when it comes to Black
women's sexual health.

Hmm.
Okay.
So you're noticing then at thispoint in grad school, that there
is a pretty significant gap inthe literature.

Yeah.
And I was like, okay, dang, thissucks, but I'm doing this thing.
And I know that people are like,if you, you know, you want to
get tenure, you need to likefocus on a thing.
And what changed was I got this,fellowship opportunity at Yale

(40:57):
and my mentor there.
I was like working on likeputting together a project and
he just sort of stopped me.
And he's like,"You don't seemvery excited about this.
Well, tell me what does exciteyou?" And so I started telling
him about this stuff and he'slike,"This sounds great.
Why don't you do this?"And I'mlike,"Well, it doesn't, it's not
what I've been doing." And he'slike,"Well, can you connect it?"

(41:18):
And I was like, can I, so I, Istarted to look into the
research literature to see whathad been done in the area of
sexual satisfaction, sexualpleasure, and HIV prevention.
And there were some studies thathave been done, none really with
Black women, like Black womenwere maybe a small percentage of

(41:42):
people in a study or like sexualpleasure may have been
mentioned, but wasn't the focus.
So I was like, this is anopportunity.
And I was encouraged by mymentor to take advantage of it.
So I got some pilot funding andthat's how we ended up with this
mixed methods study.

(42:02):
So amazing experience.

Sounds like it , Did this mentor happen to be
the Dr.
Trace Kershaw?

Yes!

He is so great.
So I did a postdoc up at Yaleand, um, he was the head of the
program of the postdoc programor head of the postdoc program.
And he's, I mean, he's just aphenomenal mentor and he's very
like low key.
You wouldn't expect that.
He'd be the person, you know,saying, go ahead, go study

(42:34):
pleasure.

Yes!

That's amazing

Trace is incredible.
Like, I just don't have words todescribe how encouraging and
inspiring,affirming, likeresourceful, supportive.
He's literally all the goodthings of a mentor.
And I have no idea how, becausehe does this for so many people,

(43:01):
like, like talking to mycolleagues, I'm like, yeah,
just, you know, have my meetingwith Trace.
And they're like, Oh, I just metwith Trace.
And I'm like,

Yeah.
And as I like level up a littlebit in my own career, I realized
how little time people reallyget for mentoring.
And he, and, you know, folkslike him do so much and it's
just so much work.
And he, and there's just so suchlittle like recognition for it.

(43:32):
Maybe we need, maybe we need tofigure out what kind of awards,
because you know, mentorshipawards we can nominate Trace
for.

I love that.

Okay.
Well, we'll have our follow-up.
Our follow-up episode is goingto focus on your, the findings
that you were talking aboutearlier, plus, you know, our
adventure story about nominatingTrace for all of the awards.

I love it.
Yes, yes, yes.
He deserves it.

Okay.
So you have, so you have yourencouragement, you got your
funding to do your pilot study.
So what did you decide to do?

So I wanted to start off just, I guess, I don't
know what part of my trainingthis came from, but making sure
you're speaking the samelanguage as your participants is
something that I guess maybeit's for my qualitative.
Yeah.
I'm sure it's for my qualitativetraining.
Like making sure the way yourunderstanding of phenomenon is,

(44:29):
or rather making sure you have agood sense of how your
participants or your targetpopulation understands the
phenomenon before you try tointervene on it.
Like how do they evenconceptualize it, define it,
characterize it.
And so that was step one, likefiguring out how do women define

(44:52):
sexual pleasure?
How do they achieve it withthemselves, with a partner?
What barriers do they have toachieving it?
What helps them to achieve it?
Would they be open and topleasure, focus programming?
What would set programming looklike?
What might be barriers toparticipating in said

(45:14):
programming?
So that was the qualitativestudy.
And we, I mean, it was such aphenomenal experience to be able
to sit with women for an hour toan hour and a half and talk
about good sex, like a greatexperience.

And I love this too, because like, I feel
like Carly and I like ourstudies.
I mean, maybe our recent one isslightly less of a bummer, but
at least, you know, Carly'straveled like all over the state
of Delaware Asking people.
Tell me about, um, tell me aboutall the times when people have
treated you like, you know, likedirt because of your HIV or
because like, yeah.

(45:58):
And those interviews are solike, well, Carly you should
share.

Carly Hill (46:02):
I was just g oing t o say I'm pretty like high key
right now.
Like trying to get my pitch toJasmine here, just to see if she
needs anyone to do, qualitativedata collection for her.
Like, cause that sounds likeideal.
Yeah, absolutely.
W hat a complete 180 fromhonestly, like I feel like
qualitative data collection a nda lot of, y ou k now, social

(46:24):
science stuff is like, can bekind of a downer.
A nd to be honest, you know,like it's, b ecause like you
said, y ou got to understandthose downs in order to decide
where to intervene, to have tomake it most, you know, like, u
h, impactful, I guess, but like,God, t hat w as I'm so jealous
right now, honestly, l ike thatwas probably the coolest thing
to do

More fun for the researcher and probably like
a way better pitch for theparticipants, like

Right.
Yes.
Yes.
It, honestly, it ended up, itfelt like very much like, like
girlfriends just chatting withother girlfriends.
Like we had some pretty lightlike ease them into the topic
questions.
And then once the ice wasbroken, it was like, laughter

(47:12):
and wait wait wait, no, let meexplain it.
You know, it was like a reallygood time and people seem to
really enjoy themselves.
A lot of the participants werelike, please send us whatever
you publish on this.
Like we're really interested inknowing what happens with study.
So yeah, we ended up, we did thequalitative part and the

(47:35):
quantitative part, is prettyexploratory, but definitely
informed by the qualitativefindings.
Um, we wanted to see are some ofthese aspects of sexual pleasure
connected to risk behaviors forHIV in a way that's protective.

Oh Oh

Carly Hill (48:00):
Spicy

Eactly, Exactly!

You know, already you're on really good
grounds, right?
Because like depressive symptomsare bad for HIV risk behaviors.
I'd meant, you know, if we have,if we have worse mental health
symptoms than we might beengaging and more sex without
condoms or other things likethat.
So if yeah.
Okay.
So for having more pleasurablesex, then maybe we're feeling

(48:30):
better and we're also, you know,engaging in more behaviors to
take care of ourselves becausewe feel good.

Yeah.
And one of the things thatreally emerged, and this is
consistent with women of otherracial, ethnic backgrounds with
regard to sexual satisfactionand pleasure is that the women
in my study were saying, well, Ifeel most pleasure when I'm
having sex with someone that I'mlike very comfortable with that

(49:00):
I've known for some time.
Like we have sort of a historyto our relationship.
And to me what's implied aboutthis comfort and vulnerability.
They also started to mentionsome of that too.
What might be implied is thatthey may be spending more

(49:24):
exclusive time with thisparticular person to build that
comfort, which lowers your risk.
If you're having sex with lesspeople, or even one person, your
risk is definitely lower.
So I'm thinking we might see thesexual satisfaction and sexual
pleasure with a main partnerwould be related to lower

(49:48):
numbers of sexual partners.
We are thinking that it's goingto also be related to decreased
condom use, which of course is arisk factor.
But I think it's definitelyimportant.
And I feel like this is it'srarely explored in the
literature.
Like the sort of sequelae ofcondom use is for most people

(50:11):
that are using them.
Like they use them prettyconsistently in the beginning
and then it gets choppy and thenthe condoms disappear.
Right.
And then it's sort of the courseover a relationship that stands
the test of time.
And so I feel like that's notcaptured in the literature.
Like it's more so like what canwe do to get people, to use

(50:32):
condoms and get them to use themall the time?
And the reality is that as thecomfort level increases with a
partner and generally time alsoin a relationship, the
likelihood for condom use goesdown.
So yeah.

Yeah.
Well, even as researchers, Ifeel like we don't do a great
job, even thinking aboutpleasure and condoms in the same
mix, you know, I mean, peoplewill kind of give lip service to
like, Oh, people don't want touse condoms cause it doesn't
feel as good.
And then there's some sort ofeye roll and it's usually
presented by, you know, someresearcher who probably hasn't
used condoms himself in like 40years.

Exactly!

Yeah.
So like there's just, it's, it'sjust interesting that there's
just, there's not a very fullconversation about it

Agreed.
I think it's very clear thatthat's one of the main barriers
to condom use is the narrativeabout, well, it doesn't feel as
good as sex without a condom.
And I remember doing a search onthe abstracts of AIDS, I think
2018, the conference.
And there was one presentationthat explicitly had pleasure,

(51:45):
like.

Oh wow So AIDS is our huge, huge, huge, huge,
huge conference.
And so for a conference about,you know, a disease that is
largely related to sexualbehavior for there to be one
abstract that mentioned pleasureIs pretty wild.
Yeah.

Mind boggling, mind boggling.
How can we met talk aboutpleasure in the context of sex
like this is, I feel like it's,it has to be part of the
conversation.
So I'm, I'm happy that I'm ableto do some work that is starting

(52:25):
to draw, draw it into the biggerpicture of sexual health.
Also more broadly defined.

So where do you, where do you hope that this
research is going to take you?
Do you hope to kind of buildtowards interventions that are
pleasure-focused that are morelike realistic, what people are
hoping for in their sexuallives?

Yes.
So you guys couldn't see it, butI'm like rapidly shaking my
hands.
But yes, that's the dream.
So it's Spice, the company,emerged out of,"I don't have
patience for research to give methe green light with helping

(53:09):
women have more pleasurable sex.
So I'm just gonna start doing iton the side." It's happening.
It's a thing.
And then I'm like,"Okay.
And then I'll also do theresearch." So you know that at
some point can also make this apart of my professional work.
I don't know if you guys haveheard this statistic, but,"Oh,

(53:33):
from like bench to bedside or,you know, from idea
conceptualization, your firstinitial research study to
actually having something thatthe people, the masses can put
their hands on and use theaverage timeline is 17 years."

Yeah.
That's like a career! If you'redoing it one at a time, maybe,
maybe you do that twice.
So yeah.
I mean when you've got somethingthat's like, you know, I mean,
it'll be great for you tocontinue to test it and get
those data in and people willbelieve you and it'll become

(54:12):
wider, you know?
But at the very least, if weknow that women who are having
more sex are feeling lessdepressed, you know, then that's
enough reason it feels like togo out and do this.
So how much evidence do we needjust to kind of jump in and do
the thing is the good question.

I'm like this is good for people.
Good sex is good.
And people need to have it,people who want to have it need
to have it.

So where were you at in your career trajectory
when you started SpiceXperience?

I believe when I had the idea to start it, I was
in the second year of the tenuretrack at the university I was
previously at, University ofMaryland Baltimore County.
And, I didn't feel ready to doit then, like it was an idea and

(55:12):
I wanted to, but I said,"No, I'mnot going to do it." And then my
third year, I actually hiredsome people to hold my feet to
the fire and so it launched in2018, which was my third year on
the tenure track.
Yes.
And oh my God, what a labor oflove it was.

What did that look like for you?
I mean, people are usually like,just to put this in context, if
you're on the tenure track, youtypically have maybe six years
where you're publishing orperishing, to kind of call it.
So you're trying to publish alot.
You're trying to rock yourteaching, so you get good
teaching evaluations.

(55:56):
And I think some people don'treally know that at the end of
those six years in these typesof jobs, you submit this dossier
and you basically like you're upfor marriage essentially.
Right?
So you either get promoted andyou get tenure or you can lose
your jobs.
So you got the pressure of that,which is a lot of work.

(56:17):
And now you're founding thiscompany.
So what did that look like foryou?
Like on a day to day, were yousleeping?

So I will say right, like up to the launch,
like in those weeks, like up tothe launch, I was not, I was not
sleeping much and it wasextremely stressful.
Thankfully I launched in thesummer.
So I have a nine month contract,had with the university, And I
launched in the summerintentionally so that my

(56:51):
workload would be lighter.
I wouldn't be teaching duringthat time.
And even with the lighterworkload, it was still a very
intense endeavor, but I've felt,I felt pretty good about what I
was doing and where I was going,because when I was in graduate

(57:13):
school, I started my firstcompany with a colleague,
Research Unlimited.
And in my first year on thetenure track, we participated in
a startup accelerator.

Oh, wow!

Yes, it was so cool.
So I got all the sort ofbusiness foundations,
start-up-a-company foundationsfrom that experience, Lighthouse
Labs in Richmond, Virginia.
So I was driving to Richmond atleast once, sometimes twice a
week from Baltimore, which isonly four hours.

(57:50):
Okay.
On a bad day with DC traffic,six.
So not like doing a companywhere I didn't have to go
somewhere else every week, itfelt like,"Oh, this is at least
a little bit easier."

I can do it from my kitchen.

Yeah, exactly.
This was where it was happening,in my dining room.
So yeah, it felt like this is alighter lift in comparison to
what I was doing previously, butstill a very, a very intense
experience.

You know, it seems like it would be really
fulfilling, you know, when youwere talking about that, that
lag that we have like 17 years,right?
So like you have this idea, youstart like gathering the data,
you pilot it, you apply forfunding.
You don't get your funding, youapply again, you don't get it,
you know, and then eventually 17years later or whatever, it

(58:50):
impacts people's lives.
Right.
But here, you've got this thingwhere, you know, you're saying
you have workshops, you haveparties and you have these
individual consultations and youcan see the impact of your work
right there.
And you can innovate too asyou're going along, right?
Because you're not like held bya research protocol or something

(59:11):
like that.
So has it been a nice, I wouldassume it'd be like a nice
balance.
Does it feel like that?
Or do you draw energy from?

Definitely it's so fulfilling.
It is a lot of work to try anddo both, but I cannot even begin
to describe the level offulfillment, especially once
clients start telling you whatchanges have manifested in their
lives after taking part in theworkshops.

(59:43):
Somebody told me they were like," I got a picture of a baby."
And they were like,"This is myson who was conceived the night
after I attended that workshop."

Oh my God.
Look at you, that's amazing!

I know! I'm like,"Oh my God I've helped
create a human!" And yeah peopletelling me things like,'You
saved my marriage," or"This isthe best sex my husband and I
have had in years." It was like-

Valerie Earnshaw (01:00:17):
-it was better than a p-value of less than.05.

Jasmine Abrams (01:00:22):
Yeah, it was much better than that! Yes.

That's awesome.
Better than a significantresult.

Yeah, it was so affirming and it just sort of
like made me feel like, yes,this is hard, it's laborious,
but it was worth it.
It was worth it.

It's funny, because I circling back to Trace
and, when I was leaving mypostdoc to go off for, you know,
first faculty job, I think atthe time I was like,"I wanna
write a book.
I wanna write like a memoir." Idon't know why I felt like I had
things to memoir about, but, andI recently actually had to write

(01:01:02):
like a thousand word bio ofmyself and it was so painful
that I'm like,"Why would I everwrite a memoir?" But anyway, I
was like,"Trace, how would thatbe seen in academia if I did
something like that?" And he waslike,"Well, it's fine.
As long as you're acingeverything else, like
research-wise, essentially.
He's like,"So, you know, if itdoesn't come across as a

(01:01:24):
distraction." And so to me, itwas really, it felt like the
message of like,"Okay, you cando it, but you really need to be
acing it at work so that peopledon't think like,"Oh, she's not,
she's not performing where sheshould be, because she's, she's
got this other thing that she'sdoing."

Yeah, I definitely would say that would
ring true for people who areinterested in academic
entrepreneurship, unless yourgoal...
And this is, I'm actuallyworking on something new.
People are like,"How many LLCsdo you have?
What's going on?"

Carly Hill (01:02:00):
I can't, I already lost count.

So working on something new and I'm doing this
webinar so I can introduce it topeople.
And I've been working on theslides the last few days, and
one of the things I'm tellingpeople is,"It's so important for
us to think of ourselves as anentrepreneurial enterprise, even
if our only goal is to be thegreatest academic of all time.

(01:02:26):
Like still think of yourself asa business.
Like you are an entity and yourcareer is a business entity and
it should function as such." Andwhen I think about myself in
that way, I don't see myself aswedded to academia.

Oh okay, you have options.
You're a whole person.

Exactly! Which academics are like,"Oh my God,
what is that?" A whole person,how?

Not just a publishing machine, what?
A publishing machine who standsin front of students and says

(01:03:09):
facts?

Yeah, so oh my goodness.
Oh, I have like so much I cansay about this one.
Okay, so when we would introducedoctoral students at UMBC to our
program, we do this likefaculty-student exchange, and
they would always ask facultylike,"What's some advice you

(01:03:30):
have for us starting out?" And Ialways say,"Do something outside
of academia that makes you feellike a valued individual."

Wow.

(01:03:40):
Do something that you're good at outside of this, because it's
so easy for us when this is ouronly thing to attach our self
worth and our value andacademia, science is built on
criticism and being critical ofother people's work.

(01:04:02):
And so there's rejection andcritique at every turn.
And if you, one don't handlethat well, or two, don't have
something outside of this, it'svery easy to get lost in
imposter syndrome, get lost in,"I'm not enough.
I'm not doing as good as thatperson.

(01:04:23):
I could be doing more there, butmy to do list is never gonna
end." Like it's so easy to getlost in all of the perils of
academia if you don't havesomething that's feeding you
outside of it I think.
That's my 2 cents.

Oh my gosh.
Give you all of the cents.
I mean, it's paralyzing, I'veseen faculty who are paralyzed
by it.
Like they just can't respond toreviewer critiques, you know?
And I think all of us go throughlike the phases of like,"Oh,
this reviewer is the dumbest youknow, like they're the worst!"

(01:04:58):
And then it's like,"I'm theworst.
I'm terrible." And then finallyyou, like, you respond to the
reviewer of your work and you'relike,"I'll move on in my life."
But I think some people justlike, it's really hard to move
past the,"I'm the dumbest or,you know, I didn't think of
this, I didn't do this right.
Or I think it can be reallychallenging, but the fact that

(01:05:20):
you encouraged people to findsomething where they feel
valued, like that word inparticular just really strikes
me.
Because I think especially forgrad students, we do such a poor
job, making sure that peoplefeel valued.
Like, I just think that that's areally important thing.

(01:05:41):
Yeah.
So to encourage people to get itfrom elsewhere.
And then now as far kind oflike, you know, on the other
side of things, making surethat, you know, once again,
we're like the Trace Kershaw'sand we're valuing the mentees in
front of us as much as we can.
I think.
Yeah.

Yeah, I think that's important too.
Like from the perspective ofbeing a mentor to other people,
definitely thinking about it.
I always try to like preface myfeedback with like,"I'm doing
this out of love.
You know, like if I did not careabout you or your success, you

(01:06:19):
would have gotten like,"Thislooks great" or like,"Your job
talk is fantastic." You go outon your job talk and get
ridiculed by other scientists.
Like, no, no I'm going toridicule you at home.
And then when you go out, you'llbe prepared for whatever foolery
someone tries to throw at you.

Yeah.
That's really, oh right.
Well maybe I'll look back withmore kindness and compassion at
some of the foolery, you know inmy direction as a graduate.

But that's also like the like seventh thing I can
think of from this interviewthat you said that like, is so
like mind blowing to me.
But then when I think about it,I'm like,"Well, duh." You know,
but like, I just never thoughtabout it like that, but it makes
sense.
And it's like, well, well, whyare we not, you know, why are we
not having these conversations?
But like, you know, it seems sosimple.

(01:07:13):
Like, you know, just valuepeople, but it's also like you
know, just, I watched the two ofyour faces like,"Whoa, you said,
you know what now?" Like, youknow, coming back to it's like.
You know, and I had the samereaction, but then it's like,
well, yeah, yeah.
You know?
Or like, how do we not talkabout pleasure with HIV?
Like, well, yeah, hang on.
Like, what are we not doing?

(01:07:33):
This is like this whole, thetheme of this whole entire
interview for me right now.
But anyway...

I love this cause Carly can be on me, you
know, as co-hosts being like,"Wait, what are you guys doing
in science and academia?
What is that about?" WellJasmine, you know, thinking
about things that people dostrangely in academia, you

(01:07:59):
received some nice and I thinkvery well deserved attention.
I think for series of tweetsthat you posted at the beginning
of June, and you know, it was aseries of them.
I'd love to read the last one inthe series, because it was so
beautifully written.
Before we started this call,Carly and I had a whole

(01:08:19):
conversation about what abeautiful writer you are.
And I feel like we could justlike, you know, it's like, it's
poetic.
So not only in your articles, doyou have all these really great
quotes that we were like,"Thiswoman is a poet, but then also
in your tweets.
So the last tweet you wrote was,"Keep in mind that the
plantation has been on fire forus.

(01:08:41):
And that for most, it is a legitdaily struggle to do our work.
We appreciate you reaching out,but we'd appreciate it more if
you helped us put the fire out."So, and just for context, you
know, your first tweet of thisseries was that many of my Black
friends and I have gottenmessages from White colleagues
asking about our wellbeing andhow they can help.

(01:09:03):
And then you go on from there...

Mhm.

So, a.
Beautifully written.
I think this could be calledviral because, you know, I don't
know what the threshold forviral is, but it feels like this
went viral.
Yeah?

Yeah.
It did.
I think it's like the actualdefinition of viral.

When I saw like, checked my Twitter.
Like later that day I was like,"Oh wow, like a hundred people
liked it.
And at that time I maybe onlyhad like a hundred and some odd
followers.

Oh, wow!

I use Twitter very sparingly.
And then I think I like went tosleep, got on the next day.
And I was like,"Oh my goodness!"Like it, it caught, I don't know
what it caught, but it caughtsomething.
It was off to the races, like15,000 likes I think it had.

(01:09:57):
Hundreds of reshares and thenpeople are reaching out to me,
like to ask me things about it.
And I'm like,"Ohh-kay." I didn'tknow it was going to turn into
all of this.
This was like venting during mycoffee.

Like, oh my gosh, if this is you venting
during your coffee, and this islike the level of prose that you
put out, like I need to see likewhat the prose you put out when
you're actually like there andlike writing.
And, oh my gosh.
Yeah.

Let me just say thank you so much.
As it, I think I was in, it wasprobably the first year on the
tenure track where I realized Iwas like,"I am a writer."

Oh yeah!

Like a big part of academia.
I mean, we all are as academics,like if you're an academic, you
are a writer.
Like you write papers, you writegrants, you write proposals, you
write syllabi, you are a writer.
We spend so much time writing.
And honestly, I, I love poetry.

(01:10:59):
Some of the women, like the mosthighly esteemed women in my life
are poets.
So it means a lot to me that youwould call me a poet.
I'm like, oh yeah, thank you!

Absolutely.
Yeah, us and, you know, 15thousand other people
apparently.
I think they would agree.

And you're our favorite type of poet cause
you're a scientist-poet.
So like, you know, look at thatintersection.

Yes! Even though science tries to like squeeze
every ounce of creativity now.

We see it! It's in your articles.
We see it there.
I mean, you've got the like,especially your discussion
section.
They're gorgeous.
I mean, they're just there,that's where you get a little
more latitude and you can seeyou like using that latitude of
it.
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.
I've had that as a critique ofmy writing.
"Like this is too poetic."

Okay, I like get this type of stuff too.
And I always feel like not, no.
Okay.
No one calls me poetic.
I should say that, but I just,this kind of like,"Your voice
isn't right for science." And Ithink that's not fair.
I think, you know, this is yourvoice.
This is how you're saying thingsand it is right for science.
And I struggle with this alittle bit as a mentor too.

(01:12:11):
Cause I have a, a student who islike quite poetic in his prose
and I'm always like,"Well thisis his voice, you know?" And,
but yeah, it's who you are.
It's how you speak.
And we should make room inscience for that.
I think for the diversity ofvoices that we all have.

(01:12:33):
Yeah.
So within this tweet you say,"You know, we appreciate you
reaching out, but we'dappreciate it even more if you
helped us put the fire out." Sowhat are ways that people can
help put the fire out?

Yeah.
You know, this is a greatquestion, Valerie.
I am in the process of trying topitch an op-ed of 101 ways like
that tweet inspired me andanother colleague, like we just
went on a tangent and juststarted writing out like things

(01:13:09):
that can be done at the systemslevel or institutional level,
things that can be done at aninterpersonal level between
colleagues or even at anindividual level.
And like structurally, one ofthe things we talked about were
actually making long-terminvestments in dismantling

(01:13:32):
systemic racism.
We've seen a lot of the liketweets and other commentaries
about universities who aresending out these sort of
statements of solidarity.
And we're like,"Yeah, that'sfantastic.
Thanks.
Where's your action plan?
What are you actually going todo to create lasting sustainable

(01:13:55):
change?
And how are you going to divestin like systems that center
white supremacy essentially?"And yeah, I mean the list is so
it's 101 things and the factthat we could come up with 101

(01:14:16):
things, and there were thingsthat we removed from the list,
so it was longer and we sort ofpicked which what would make
101.
And I even, I sent it out tosome of my mentors and they
added, they had things to add.
So it's like, you know, one ofthe things that I say is to

(01:14:38):
consider this list sort of likean actionable, like a request
for action, but also, oh, whatdid I call it?
It was something reallygood...When you're telling me
I'm a poet.
So like now I have to give yousome receipts.

(01:14:59):
It was an indictment.
Consider it a rolling indictmentand an urgent request for
actionable like change.
And so, yeah, even like at theindividual level, educating

(01:15:20):
yourself about systemic racism,educating yourself about ways in
which you've benefited frombeing a White person, it
generally, or specifically inthe academy, engaging your
colleagues more.
A lot of times, I reallyappreciate the term inclusion

(01:15:41):
when we talk about diversity andinclusion, because a lot of
times what happens is we'reexcluded.
Sometimes I think intentionally,and sometimes I think it's not
so intentional, it's a functionof the systems that are, systems
and traditions that are inplace.
And we don't get invited to, youknow, X thing afterward where

(01:16:04):
people come up with,"Oh, we'regoing to do this really cool
grant." Yeah, some of these moreinformal things, and the list
goes on and on and on and on.
But like in my tweet, I offereda few different specific
examples, like just inviting usto co-author something where
it's if we share interests orinviting us to be a consultant

(01:16:29):
on your grant or aco-investigator or one of the
things that I love, I sawsomeone who I think had read the
tweets and they sort of said,"This is what I'm going to do."
And they said,"I'm not going toparticipate in any more papers
or conference presentations withall white authors.

(01:16:52):
I'm not going to, um, be, ifI've already been like a guest
speaker at a particular event,and they're requesting me again,
I'm going to offer that, youknow, I'm going to recommend the
name of another scholar of colorthat has expertise in the area".
And those are some of the thingsthat I think are AMAZING ways to

(01:17:14):
show up, you know, like, yeah,if you're having an opportunity
for an interview or a speakingengagement and you've done tons
of them offer it to someoneelse.
If you notice that the onlypeople that have ever done this
particular keynote have beenWhite, offer it to someone else
or recommend another scholar.
So those are some small ways,but definitely universities have

(01:17:38):
a lot of heavy lifting thatneeds to be done, for faculty,
for staff, for students, and notjust graduate students like on
down the pipeline and even, youknow, for undergrads and, even
our non degree seeking students,like there's so much work to be

(01:18:00):
done at all of these differentlevels.
And I'm encouraged because I dothink some universities are
putting forth, actionable,actionable plans.
And you know, I hate to say itlike this, but I think it's
trending and people are gonnajump on the trend.

Hey you know, if that's what gets change, then
let's, you know, make it supercool.

Right, it's the latest thing everyone's doing
it.
Please join in.

If it works then, whatever, right.

Yeah, so I'm happy.
I'm happy to see even in mydepartment at Boston University,
I can see my colleagues reallywrestling with some of these
topics.
And I also appreciate thosecolleagues who recognize that
it's not the job of Blackfaculty members to show up and
educate, to show up and provideany recommendations.

(01:18:55):
As one of my colleagues says,she's like,"You have the data."

Oh yeah.

Any more data, you don't need any more
anecdotal experiences, you haveeverything you need to start to
build change.
Like you don't, you don't needany more information to start
right.

Start today,

Just do it.

Okay.
So we could definitely turn thisinto a podcast, sleepover and
talk to you all night, but forsure, I probably should let you
go.
Where are some ways, where aresome places where people can
come find your work?
So you have your BU(BostonUniversity) website, you've got
a website for SpiceXperience,and as well as Research
Unlimited and Tuzo designs,which we also dug up that your a

(01:19:49):
co-founder of.

Yes.

People can also find you on Twitter.
Where else should, where shouldfolks look?

Yeah, I have my personal website also.
It's www.drjasmineabrams.com.
I'm also on, like you mentionedTwitter and Instagram at Dr.
Jasmine Abrams and yeah, myemail is abramsja@bu.edu.

(01:20:17):
So I'm very accessibleindividual, happy to chat and
fraternize with all differentkinds of folks.
So I welcome people reaching outand I'm also really excited,
I'll have to send it to you soyou can share with your
audience, but I'm working onputting out some materials

(01:20:39):
related to increasingproductivity in academia.
And this is mostly for earlycareer folks and, uh, sort of
senior level grad students andpostdocs.
So I'm really excited.
Like that's my next big thing.
And I just, I can't wait.
I can't wait to release it.

Well, you're going to be a great person to do
that.
I just found your Instagramright before we started.
And I saw one of your recentposts, so you had three first
authored papers accepted in oneweek, which is I don't know
anyone who's had that.
So you're like, yeah, bronze,silver, gold, racking it up.
And all, not only did you havethree papers accepted in one

(01:21:20):
week, but all three paperslooked super interesting and I
was and were ones that I'd wantto read, which also is amazing.
And I needed it all.

And willing to bet for all the listeners that
they're really poetic andbeautiful and super engaging to
read, which I think is a coolthing in science.
It makes me people want to read,you know, your stuff and it's
not so dry, but like also threein one week is really
outstanding.

Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I'm, when I have thoseacceptances, I actually posted a
happy dance to Instagram.
so people could see how thrilledI was.
Like it, so let me give a littlebackstory, collectively those
papers were rejected 10 times,yup.

So thanks for sharing that.
So a lot of rejection on the wayto our happy dance week.

Yes! Like that, that, I mean, that would be what
I would love to highlight mostabout.
We got, like I got all thosepapers at the same time is the
only reason it happened isbecause even when people were
telling me that the work was notpublishable, I believed that it
was, and I kept fighting for itto be published.

(01:22:44):
Like one of those papers inparticular, I think had been
submitted at least six times.
And I did put it down for a fewyears and picked it back up.
But I knew when even when I putit down, I knew it was
temporary.
Like I'm going to put it down soI can get a fresh perspective
later down the line, but thiswill be published.

(01:23:04):
I am determined.

I just would like to hover for one moment
before we do wrap on the ideathat, what does it mean that
reviewers are saying that workon, you know, so much of your
work is on Black women.
I saw one of the papers thisweek was, you know, young,
younger, Black women.
I mean the colorism paper, whatdoes it mean that our work with

(01:23:27):
Black women isn't publishable?
Like what is that that's really,you know, that's really
something there.

I'm telling you.
And honestly, oh my God.
I wonder, I probably could do,this could be a study, like
analyzing those reviews ofrejected papers.
Like, I can't tell you how manytimes we were told,"This is a
well written paper,but...[silence]

Go ahead and finish that thought.
Yeah you know,

Yeah.
Yeah.
Like if the methodology isn'tflawed, then why is the work?
Why can't it be accepted?

Yeah.
The other one that really getsunder my skin when I work with,
you know, most of thepopulations that I work with are
like,"Oh, this is interesting,but maybe it should go to a
specialty journal", which islike,"I'm sorry, what is it
about my science maybe withblack women or whatever
population that I'm workingwith, that isn't important
enough for just the overalljournal.

(01:24:32):
Like, you know, why not just thebig public health journal,
right?

No, that's an excellent point.
That's an excellent point.
And it's something that I'vequestioned.
I think when you experience likeracism and sexism, it becomes a
lens through which you filteryour life and you then wonder if
like anything you'reexperiencing, like, is this like
because I'm Black?
Would this be happening to me ifI were doing research, not on

(01:25:03):
Black people, or if I were aWhite person doing research on
Black people.
And so those are definitelyquestions I've had when
submitting my research andgetting reviews back.
I don't know.
I guess I don't know that I'llever know.

Well, you know, I think a lot of the
stigmas and the patterns, somaybe someday we'll have to do
the study where we investigatethe pattern, you know, like
investigate this feedback thatpeople get and look at what the
pattern is and then we'll havesome more insights.
Well, when our RAs were doingresearch on you for the episode,

(01:25:41):
cause they, you know, ourresearch assistants do some
digging around into folks.
And then, you know, we frame upsome of our interview questions.
In their language they describedyou as a Renaissance woman and
as a complete badass.

Oh, my God!

We wanted to leave on that and say, you know,
I really admire what you'redoing in your career.
I think our whole lab reallyadmires and looks up to it.

Absolutely!

And especially how you're bringing so much of
yourself to it, like as ascientist, as an entrepreneur
and as the researcher, or as ourresearch assistants says it's
just like a complete badass.
So we're just feel really luckythat we can be in the same field
as you, and that you're outthere doing this amazing

(01:26:28):
science.
So thank you for all of that.

And again, if you ever need anyone to help you out
with some qualitativeinterviewing, I'm probably going
to be free.
Maybe Valerie will likely lendme, I think, after this whole
conversation.
But seriously, thank you so muchfor talking with us today.
Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you guys.
I appreciate you so much.
I appreciate this platform forbeing able to have normal,
everyday conversations aboutscience and about us being whole
people doing science.
So thank you so much.
I appreciate your work in doingthis.
I know it's not easy.
Like you mentioned being, youknow, an academic and being on

(01:27:08):
timelines.
I appreciate you putting yourlove and energy into something
that may not get you, you know,an extra checkmark toward a
tenure promotion.

Well, I mean, if all of that, this podcast,
does is bring us into contactwith people like you then I mean
like amazing.

Thank you so much.
I'm honored.
I really am.
Thank you.

(01:27:36):
[transition music]

Carly.

Valerie!

I've realized the second biggest risk of
hosting this podcast with all ofthese amazing guests.
The first biggest risk is you'regoing to leave, but the second
biggest risk is all of the RAsare going to leave.
I am worried after, at the end,listening to Dr.
Abrams, that they are all goingto transfer to Boston University

(01:28:09):
to go work with her and Scottand Kim Nelson.

I mean, I don't know that it gets a whole lot better
than this, except for this, thisone might be a threat.
I'll be honest with you.
If Dr.
Abrams is listening and sheknows she ever needs anyone, she
knows where to find me.

But also just not quite sure how we landed on
in our first inaugural seasonthree people from Boston
University who are also doingsuch stellar research.

I know I'm in the wrong part of the world here, I
guess.

Not statistically likely that, but
that's okay.
Okay.
Well, one of the things that theresearch assistants wanted us to
talk a little bit more aboutafter listening to this and also
, just kind of reflecting onwhat's been going on this summer
with the Black Lives Mattermovement is they were wondering
about what's the racial, ethnicmakeup of faculty members in

(01:29:04):
academia.
So I pulled some stats from theNational Center for Education
Statistics.
And so I'm going to start withthe rank of professor.
So professors just fullprofessors, are faculty members
who have reached sort of thehighest rank within academia,

(01:29:24):
there's, there's no morepromotions to be had.
They have tenure and havingtenure essentially means that
it's very hard to fire them.
So highest rank faculty.
Okay.
So 54% of tenured professors areWhite men, 54.

(01:29:45):
So over half, you know,nationally of our tenured
professors are white men andthen 27% are White women.
So that gives us a whopping 81%of professors who are White,
White men, mostly, and alsoWhite women.
So I've got to say, I knew whenI went to pull these statistics

(01:30:07):
that they were going to be bad,but they were actually worse
than I thought that they weregoing to be.

Yeah, I am on the same page with you on that one.
That is disgusting honestly, butis really the only word for it.
Yeah.

2% of our faculty nationally are Black
men.
2% are Black women weighing inat 4% Black faculty members, 2%
are Latinx men to 1% sorry, ourLatinx women giving us 3% Latinx
professors.

(01:30:44):
And I can't like, I can't even,you know, with that statistic
with how rapidly growing thatportion of our population is so
that was really striking for me.
And then we've got 8% AsianPacific Islander men and 3%
Asian Pacific Islander women.
I'm clocking in at 11%, AsianPacific Islander total.

(01:31:08):
So that's full professor.
So that's kind of like the, youknow, like I said, that's the
highest ranking folks on campus.
So then I looked at assistantprofessors.
So assistant professors arenewer to the field.
Cause here's the other issue isthat our full professors are
probably also maybe a little bitolder.

(01:31:28):
We know that our as a nation,our socio-demographics are like
shifting.
So I thought, okay, so maybe thenumbers might look a little bit
different if we look atassistant professor, so here 34%
White men and 38% White women.
So we're clocking in here atassistant professor with 72%

(01:31:51):
White faculty members.
So it's, you know, there's lessWhite men percentage wise and
there's more White womenpercentage-wise here, but still
it's, you know, it'spredominantly White folks at
this stage as well.
And then when we start lookingat the numbers for Black and

(01:32:14):
Latinx faculty members they're,depressingly similar to
professor.
I mean, rather than 2%representation, it goes up to
like three or 4% at thisassistant professor rank.
And again, this assistantprofessor rank, you know, these
folks are, they're just startingin the professor track.
They're not tenured.
Tenure is like this, like Isaid, it's, it's really hard to

(01:32:35):
fire you.
So these are folks who haven'tprogressed that far yet, but,
so, so not a good situation.

No.

The other thing that I thought was
interesting in some articleshave made a point to pull out
this point is that our facultydon't reflect the undergraduate
population anymore.
So even with, you know,assistant professors is slightly

(01:33:07):
better, at least for gender,maybe, I don't know?
It's still terrible.
I'm not, let's just reign backslightly, but, you know, so they
also have some statistics forlike overall across like all
faculty ranks.
So across all faculty ranks,it's 76% of all faculty members
were White, but only 55% ofundergraduates were White.

(01:33:29):
So we've got this really bigdifference between what the
undergraduates look like andwhat our faculty look like.
So we're kind of, we're movingto this point, where our the
faculty who are teachingundergraduates really don't well
represent the undergrads thatthey are, you know, the folks
who, that they are, who they areteaching.
And I should mention all thesedata from 2017.

(01:33:51):
So they're not, you know,

Not super old.
You know, t hat's sort of, youknow, such a strong, like 81%,
you know, of these tenuredfaculties are White.
Like I don't have all theconfidence in the world from,
you know, 2017 to 2020 that,that really l eaped up to where
it should be.
So I'm sure that they're equallyas depressing, right?

Oh yeah, for sure.
Tenure is a very slow process,you know, it takes like a year,
you know, just with your stuffunder review for you to read a
level up.
Um, yeah.
And I think, you know, one thingI think I'd like to underscore
from the conversation that wehad with our research assistants
with our undergrads was thattenure really is a powerful

(01:34:41):
thing to get.
And I think if you listen backto the episode with, Dr.
Stephanie Chaudoir, she talked alot about what she felt like she
was able to advocate for oncampus before tenure versus
after tenure.
Like she called her tenure arace car, and she she's like,
where's this baby taking me.
And, you know, she's really beenable to use that power to

(01:35:02):
advocate for change on campus.
And so if you know, 54% of thechange makers on your campus are
the people who are able toreally feel empowered to make
change at those highest levelsare White men.
I mean, it can be, there's a lotof, you know, White men out
there making great change andwho are great advocates, but the

(01:35:23):
more diversity that we getwithin those circles, the better
in terms of making change oncampuses.
For sure.

Absolutely.
So, you know and to that effectto kind of highlight what Dr.
Abrams was just talking about orhow, you know, we forced her to
talk about her Twitter.
Cause it's so amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:35:43):
Yeah.
We asked her for permission totalk about it.
Yeah.

But, you know, so one of the things that you guys
heard her talk about was this101, you know, this list off all
the ways that, you know, peoplecould do better, especially in
academia.
Um, and so the RAs just wantedus to kind of spend a little bit
more time talking about this.
So you heard us read one of hertweets, but I just wanted to

(01:36:09):
highlight, sort of what helpedbirth, that list of 101 that,
you know, it's not out yet, butwe're sitting on the edge of our
seats waiting for it.
And so she says many of my Blackfriends and I have gotten
messages from White colleaguesasking about our wellbeing and
how they can help.
Rather than burden us with yourguilt, invite us to co-author
papers and grants with you,invite us to be on the symposium

(01:36:31):
or be the guest speaker.
And, you know, it really just,just goes from there and it's
this like huge call to actionthat, you know, what it was
retweeted 4,400 times, it gotover 15,000 likes.
Like it sort of took on thislife of its own.
And you know, can't wait to seewhere the, you know, what the

(01:36:55):
final list of a hundred, right.
Well, because, you know, fromall this, l ike that was, y ou k
now, my favorite is when shesaid, like we had to trim it
down.
It's not like we were scrapingthe barrel for 101 things.
Like we had way more than weneeded and we had to kind of
reign it in.

Yeah.
And I really love, I just lovethat because I feel like it's a
moment in time where people arelike, I don't know what to do.
And just the fact that she'slike easily 101 different
things, here you go.
No problem.
Like probably came up with themin one sitting.
So I love that because I love aproblem when there's like,
actually there's a ton of stuffthat you can do to contribute to

(01:37:30):
solutions.
And so I think that it's likesuch a really smart framing to
say, like here's 101 ways tosolve it.

Right.
For that 82% of, you know, theWhite tenured faculty, like,
hey, actually here is a wholelist!

Right?

No more excuses.
Like, here we go.

Yeah.
Well, it was funny too, becauseone of the things, when we were
talking with our researchassistants that they, I don't
think that they totally realizedbefore some recent conversations
that they've had with faculty oncampus is how much of a faculty
member's career depends onpapers and grants, especially,

(01:38:12):
you know, at certainuniversities.
So by specifically calling oncolleagues to invite their Black
colleagues or colleagues who arePeople of Color to coauthor
papers and grants, I mean,that's really like what people
need to be promoted.

(01:38:32):
So it's like it's a veryactionable and we should always
be seeking representation, likediverse, you know,
representation on our, on oursymposia, on our coauthors and
on our coauthored papers and onour grants, it just makes for
better science.
I think we could argue.

Absolutely.
You know, just even like thevote in favor of our contract
renewals, tenure and promotion,the situs in your papers, like,
and, you know, like I even said,you know, when we were recording
with her, like everything thatshe says at first, you're like
all of these profound statementsjust seem so once she says them,

(01:39:12):
you're like, well, duh, you knowwhat I mean?
Like, yeah.
Like, why are we not doing thisnow?
You know?
And it's just, it's amazing.
But either way, just the factthat this tweet really, you know
, took on a life of its own andled to, you know, I can't wait
to see this final product andthis final list of 101 things.

Yeah.
Well, just to, you know, fullysatisfy maybe the RAs, is some
of the other specific thingsthat she said was, you know, I
alluded to this a little bit,but invite us to collaborative
meetings.
So, you know, for me, I organizesymposia for meetings, which
means that I'll invite, youknow, like three or four
different speakers to cometogether and give presentations

(01:39:50):
all on the same topics.
So this is a call for me to makesure that those symposia, like
those speakers that I invite arediverse.
She also called on folks to saysomething or, or speak up at
faculty meetings when somethinggoes awry, like when someone

(01:40:11):
says something that'sinsensitive or maybe, you know,
discriminatory rather than justcoming around to check in on,
you know their faculty membersor their friends of color, you
know, like after the meeting.
And I was like, yup, need to do,need to do much better at that.

And I love the way she says it too.
Like the, say something inparenthesis instead of secretly
coming by our office later.
And it's like, you knowwell-intentioned, but at the
same time, like it, you know,honestly, what good is it at
that point, if you didn't, youknow, speak up then.
And I think that that'ssomething that, you know, again,

(01:40:49):
a lot of the 82% I'ms sure, youknow, if anyone's listening,
like do a littleself-examination and ask
yourself if that would be yourapproach.
Cause I think up until thenthat, you know, or it's so easy
to think that you're doing goodthere, right?.
And you're being supportivethere, but it's like, no, you
can, you can, here's the 101ways you can do better than
secretly c oming t o my officeafterwards, y ou k now?

Yeah.
And I mean, I do, you know, Icheck in on people like,
especially with, you know, withthe events of the past couple of
months, I'll like check in on mycolleagues and be like,"Hey, you
know, how are you doing mentalhealth check?" And I just was
like, that was a really goodcomment for me to read.
Cause I was like, Oh yeah, mylike colleagues do not really
need my social support rightnow.

(01:41:33):
What they need for me to do islike something of action on
campus to like make campusbetter for them or make their
jobs better for them.
So that was a really, it was areally good one.
And I mean, it also speaks tolike, you're making yourself
feel better by this becauseyou're like, Oh, you know, I've
checked in on you.
But what we really just need isfor you to like take some

(01:41:53):
action.
Yeah.
Another one that I really liked,but she said to share strategies
for having a successful career.
I thought this one was likereally good because there's
just, it also to me like speaksto this idea of like networking
and old boys club.

(01:42:14):
Like I think that there's justlike, there's some institutional
wisdom that sometimes gets likepassed down or shared or like
tricks for how to do somethings, but then academia that
like, if you're not on the golfcourse or if you're not, like if
you're not at the bar, likehaving the beer with all of the
men or at one of theinstitutions that I was at, it

(01:42:34):
was like the cigar bar.
So like, if you don't go to thecigar bar to, you know, get
these, have these conversations,like you might not actually
learn, like, how exactly did you, um, like get participants for
this study?
Or how exactly did you framethat part of your grant that was
so successful?
So like a lot of that comes outin conversation.

(01:42:55):
I think so making it, makingthose conversations more open
and maybe more strategic I thinkis a great recommendation.

Right.

Then she drops the bomb of like, just pay us
the same.
Yeah.
So we're just going to leavethat one there.
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Pay for the extra service thatpeople participate in.
And I think this is a really bigone too.
I think again, one of theconversations we just had with
our undergraduate researchassistants was that they didn't

(01:43:28):
quite realize that serviceactivities, which can be like
being a member of a committee oncampus for diversity and
inclusion, or maybe like servingon extra, like students theses
or being a mentor to extrastudents on color of color on

(01:43:50):
campus or things that, thosethings aren't really super well
recognized and rewarded inacademia again, because the
thing you're going to getpromoted on in a lot of places,
not every place, but in a lot ofplaces is just your papers and
your grants.
So if you're spending like 20%of your time in these like
diversity and inclusion circles,and you're really like
advocating for change, likethat's awesome, but it's taking

(01:44:13):
away from doing activities thatare the ones that are going to
get you promoted, which isawful.
And it doesn't really like leadto change on campuses included.

Yeah, exactly.

Promote work on social media and just like,
you know, as you said earlier,just promote them.
Like when you look at that,which I think, you know, we can
hover there for a moment and saythat we've got lots of research
from, they call them vignettestudies that like, if people see
two applications, sameapplication, one application has

(01:44:47):
a sound or has a name thatsounds like a Black person.
And the other one has a namethat sounds like a White person
that that White person's morelikely to be hired and to be
promoted all sorts of things.
And so it's, you know, it's,it's a short recommendation, but
it's quite weighty to just, youknow, promote, promote people at

(01:45:08):
the same rates that you would ifthey were White.
So yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.
So we can't, you know, again, wecan't wait to see if these like
101 tips and we're reallygrateful that she is, you know,
spending time using her voice topublish them while at the same
time sort of realizing and beingcognizant that she shouldn't

(01:45:37):
have to, she should be able tolike spend her time, writing her
papers and grants and...

to get that tenure,

even if this does inform a paper, which we
hope that it does.
It's still like more work thatshe has to be doing to try to
change the system when sheshould just be doing her work on
like sexual pleasure and lovelythings.
That's right.

Right.
Yeah.

A huge, thanks to the Stigma and Health
Inequities Lab at the Universityof Delaware, please all of you
stay at Delaware and to not goto Boston university to work
with Dr.
Abrams, we really, reallyappreciate that.
Thank you to McKenzie Sarnak.
This episode was researched bySaray Lopez and Alissa Leung,
and the episode was edited byKristina Holsapple.

And as always, thanks to City Girl for the
music.
You guys can follow us onInstagram at"Sex, Drugs,
Science", as a reminder there'sno"and" in there, for any more
updates about the podcast.
And if you guys are interestedin staying up to date with Dr.
Abrams, which you are follow heron both Twitter and Instagram at
Dr.
Jasmine Abrams.

And thanks to all of you for listening.

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