Jelani Kerr: Drug Policy, HIV & Racism

Dr. Jelani Kerr is an Associate Professor of Health Promotion and Behavioral Sciences at the University of Louisville School of Public Health and Information Sciences. Jelani and Valerie talk about what getting tenure means for them and doing research in community settings during the COVID-19 pandemic. Jelani describes how he got interested in HIV research, connects drug policy to the HIV epidemic in African American communities, gives a history lesson on the war on drugs, and describes why police brutality is a systemic problem. Carly and Valerie talk about Breonna Taylor, the #SayHerName campaign, and stereotypes underlying police brutality targeting Black women.

Read more about Jelani’s work here: https://louisville.edu/sphis/directory/jelani-kerr-phd-msph

Episode Transcript

Valerie (00:12):
I'm Valerie Earnshaw.

Carly (00:14):
I'm Carly Hill.

Valerie (00:15):
And this is Sex, Drugs and Science.
Today's conversation is with Dr.
Jelani Kerr.
Jelani is an associateprofessor, newly tenured, of
Health Promotion and BehavioralSciences at the University of
Louisville School of PublicHealth and Information Sciences.

(00:45):
So, Jelani.
I wanted to start off by givingyou like a big, huge
congratulations on your tenureand promotion.
And I also just got mine in thelast like week or so so, I feel
like this is like a recordingslash you know, tenure party.

Carly (01:05):
Yes.

Jelani (01:06):
Okay.
Congratulations.
Great.
We'll have to celebrate nexttime we see each other, if, uh,
I don't know.
What do you think that'll be?
I don't know, maybe in 2024 orsomething like that,

Valerie (01:21):
2024, we're going to throw the biggest tenure bash at
whatever conference we'reattending and everyone who's
listening is invited.
So we were actually talking alittle bit about tenure with
some of the research assistants,the undergrads in our lab who
help produce the show.
And they were saying that they,they aren't actually clear on

(01:42):
what tenure is.
So I'll just lay out there thattenure actually defined...
I looked it up.
I was like, how do peopleactually define this?
As an indefinite job post.
So you're essentially like, it'sreally hard for you to be fired
from your position at auniversity and, you know,
correct me if I'm wrong, but Ithink it's in part designed to

(02:04):
give faculty members like thesecurity to tackle, maybe
unpopular about importanttopics, like to take risks in
your scholarship, in teaching.
Is that your impression too, asto why we have the system?

Jelani (02:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's how it's alwaysbeen explained to me.
Like my mentor in grad school,he was thinking about tenure
was, this is the, yeah, this isthe opportunity to like really
do really interesting and reallyand if need be controversial
research and like saycontroversial truths that need

(02:42):
to be examined and explored anddiscussed, without any fear of
reprisal.
And so, you know, I think that,you know, that's how I've always
interpreted.

Carly (02:56):
Does that mean that you guys just like throughout your
career until this point, havejust had like a secret, like
lockbox sort of like all theseideas that you're like, just
waiting for, you know, thischance to like, all right now,
you know, now that I have thistenure, I can just like jump
out.
These are all the things that Iwanted to do, but I couldn't
like, Is that like, or is itsort of like now you get to dip
your toes in the water and likeallow yourself to sort of think

(03:17):
about some of those topics?

Jelani (03:22):
I think.
Okay.
So, okay.
So there are a couple of ways tolook at it.
So some people were just somepeople kind of thing, listen to
the academy as the place whereyou just need to say what you
need to say and just be boldwith whether you have tenure or
whether you, you know, don'tjust be courageous and say what
you need to say in every, youknow, I think, I think that's
fine as well.

(03:42):
And I think that's, I thinkthat's good.
And, but there is this, I mean,there are some level of politics
involved to where, you know, youmay have to, you be a little bit
more judicious and use a littlebit more wisdom with what you
say and how you say it beforeyou can really, you know, go out

(04:05):
there.
Because, you know, I mean, we,you know, we have families to
feed as well and you have to,you know, bills, you know, still
need to be paid and all of that.
And so, but I think I've alwaysseen tenures just be opportunity
to, if you, to just be morecomplete and more unfiltered

(04:28):
and, you know, in the thingsthat you want and need to say.
Now, I mean, I don't think thatmeans like going on top of, you
know, going on top of themountain with a megaphone, not
telling everybody really what'sup.

Valerie (04:41):
They don't want to know.

Jelani (04:45):
Right, right.
But I think it gives the, moreleeway to do that.
Like, is that how you feel?

Valerie (04:55):
Yeah, I do.
I do think that, I mean, youknow, and I think my lens here
is, you know, we both havelenses that I think we have
experienced the, you know,academia.
So for me also, like, as awoman, I noticed this last year
as my tenure case progressedthat I spoke up more and more so
like...one example would be thatI'm in a, or I was in a meeting

(05:23):
with this white man and he'smore senior than I am.
And the discussion was, or, youknow, there was a discussion and
we disagreed.
You know, I, there were thepeople in the room, like, I
dunno, I would probably say atthe beginning of the
conversation, it was like 60%probably agreed with me.
And 40% agreed with him.

(05:44):
Well, over the, you know, overthe course of the conversation,
he starts to get more heated andhe's, he's like starts to pace.
And I remember having thisthought process, like where is
my tenure case?
Because what happens at tenurematerials is it goes through
like first it's voted on in yourdepartment, then in the college,
then at the college, or then atthe university level for us.

(06:07):
And I was like, is he able tovote against my tenure case.
And I remember having thisthought process, like, Nope, all
clear.
And then I was like, okay, I'mgoing to just have this
conversation with him.
Like, I think if it, if I didn'tfeel like I had passed his
reach, that I would have likebeen more conciliatory or let

(06:31):
somebody else in the roomchampion that argument.
But I was like, no, I've gotthis.
Like, I have the power to like,have this conversation with
this, with this person whootherwise I think I would have
just been like, okay, whateveryou think, like, whatever.

Jelani (06:47):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
People are in the Academy.
Like some people in the Academycan be like weirdly pity.
Which is what you think would bekind of odd for an enterprise.
That's like this reallycharacterized, you know, by
intellect, you know how, if youwant you to describe it's

(07:08):
intellectuals or, you know,really smart people, you know,
you know, supposedly mature.
And, but that doesn't mean, youknow what...
I mean, I guess the humane thingis to say, you know, everybody's
human and they have their flawswith it is like it is, but I've
seen situations where it can beweirdly...
where thinking just to be weird,I will give this caveat.

(07:33):
It's not, I, I, haven'texperienced a great deal of
that, where I am, you know, atthe University of Louisville.
So I do want to say that they'vebeen pretty supportive so far.
And you know, like a lot ofplaces I think there are, you

(07:54):
know, there may be, there may besome weird characters every now
and then, but I think that'severywhere.

Carly (07:59):
Yeah.

Jelani (08:00):
Yeah.
And to tell the truth.
I think people in the Academycan be kind of just in general,
kind of weird anyway, and I'mnot, and I'm not excluding
myself from them either.

Valerie (08:10):
Oh yeah, no.

Carly (08:13):
I wasn't either.

Valerie (08:13):
The further I get, the weirder I think that I am like,
it's like a real...

Carly (08:18):
So what did you guys do to celebrate?
This is like a huge, huge deal.
I know it takes like a whole lotof, you know, stress and it's
all these different processes,like what'd you guys do to
celebrate in the pandemic?

Jelani (08:32):
Okay.
So there's really not much wecould do.
We couldn't get up and justthrow the part.
I think I went and got someKentucky fried chicken and just,
you know, I think they may have,I think there may have been it.
And like, no wait.
Me and my wife got something too.

(08:53):
I think, I think we may havegotten some takeout from a
restaurant or something, but youknow, it wasn't.
It was just kind of oh, okay.
I mean, I'm happy I have it, butwhen I first got it, I don't
know if it's hit me.
It was just kind of like, Oh,okay.
That's cool.
I got it.
You know?

Carly (09:08):
Right.

Valerie (09:10):
Well, first and foremost, I'm celebrating right
now with Jelani.
So...
and then also, my husband and Iwalked around Longwood Gardens,
which is my favorite place.
So it's, it's this garden kindof area close to where we lived,
which is they just have all ofthese flowers.
And so, you know, everyonewants, they're mostly walking

(09:33):
around with their masks on, soyeah.
So that was nice.

Jelani (09:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anytime it's a good time to gettenure, but with all that being
said, this is not a great timeto celebrate tenure.

Valerie (09:53):
Yeah.
It's not a great time tocelebrate tenure, but do you
feel like it's kind of like thebest time to get tenure?
I mean, like if, if ever you'regoing to feel a new level of job
security, like having thatcoming through during a
pandemic.

Jelani (10:03):
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.

Carly (10:08):
That's just more of a r eason t hat you guys are both g
oing t o have to celebrate oncethis pandemic is over in 2024.

Valerie (10:14):
2024, whatever, fill in the b lank conference.

Jelani (10:18):
Yeah.
I know, I know.

Valerie (10:21):
Have you thought about how, you know, post-tenure life
might look for you as comparedto pre-tenure life, either like
the projects that you're goingto take on or just how your life
is going to like your stresslevels or anything, or what do
you hope for?

Jelani (10:39):
So my main thing was just, okay now, now I, I'm a
little more unfettered in how Isay what I want to say.
Not that I didn't say what Iwanted to say, but I'm now, you
know, now I feel a little moreunfettered in doing that.
To me, that's the biggest,that's the biggest change.
You know, I still plan on, youknow, I still plan on doing the

(11:02):
work.
I still plan on.
I mean, they may ask me to takemore and more administrative
roles.
I kind of want to just w whichis fine.
My real passion right now isresearch.

Valerie (11:16):
Well, you're good at it and we need it, so...
Oh, that's so nice.
Thank you.
I appreciate it.
I don't know what I'm doing.
Oh man.
We entirely disagree with youafter spending all week deep
diving on your research.

Carly (11:30):
Yeah, respectfully disagree on that one.

Valerie (11:32):
I actually went reading through it.
I was like, this is like areally lovely coherent line of
like studies and I could totallystructure a really nice hope,
hopefully what you think is areally nice interview.

Jelani (11:46):
Well, I appreciate it.
Well, I'll take that back.
I don't know what I'm doing, butI don't know what I'm doing.

Carly (11:50):
You got to fake it till you make it, you know.

Valerie (11:52):
He's made it.

Carly (11:54):
Oh, I know.
That's what, yeah.
So now you can stop faking it.
You can just keep rolling.

Jelani (11:57):
Yeah.
I say they have to say, I don'twant to, I think that's a
sentiment that a lot of peoplehave.
Like we're working on, we'reworking on it and we can have
our areas, areas of expertise.
Right.
A lot of this is just feelingyour way through kind of like
knowing the direction.

(12:18):
Some of this is feeling your waythrough the dark.

Valerie (12:21):
I understand.
I think, I think you're totallyright.
I think that getting a PhD issort of like signing up to just
always be figuring stuff out.
You pretty much have just shownthat, like you can figure it
out.
And now like with each, unlessyou just want to do like the
same type of study over and overand over again, like you're
always going to have to navigatelike new, totally new things.

(12:44):
Or you're going to have tofigure out like, how am I going
to do this study during apandemic now?

Jelani (12:48):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.

Carly (12:55):
Same.

Jelani (12:57):
Yeah.
So how do you, how are you guysfeeling about doing research and
during the pandemic?

Valerie (13:06):
Yeah, so...

Jelani (13:08):
Especially primary, especially data collection, like
going out there a nd collectingsurveys a nd...

Valerie (13:14):
Collecting data in the clinic or out in the community
setting.
So the main project that we havegoing on is the next phase has
us going back into our localmethadone clinic and doing an
intervention, essentially withpeople who, you know, have a
history of opioid use disordersor thinking about disclosing

(13:36):
that to someone new and thefirst time for the first time.
And then, you know, walking themthrough this intervention, then
they come back after a month andtell us that how it's going for
them.
And, you know, I should reallyclarify here that by we, I mean,
Carly.
Carly is, you know, out in theclinic.
And so, yeah, we've had a coupleconversations.

(13:56):
So Carly, how do you, how do youfeel about starting back up, and
what are your thoughts?

Carly (14:02):
I mean, I, so I'm in a position where I've been stuck
inside the house since January.
So like I'm super pumped to getback into a routine where like I
get to leave the house for work,but, I understand that, you
know, there's gonna, it's gonnalook a little bit different,
some of the interviews and howit's going to be structured and
there's going to be somedifferent things we're going to

(14:23):
have to...
I think it's going to be one ofthose, like roll with the
punches things like kinda tryingto figure out space and like the
logistics of all of it.
But you know, I see a lot ofplus sides to it too.
So I mean, selfishly, I'm superexcited to get back out there if
we're allowed, but, that'skinda, I guess, up in the air
right now.

Valerie (14:43):
Yeah.
I think we're going to be ableto get back in there, but I'm
really worried about puttingCarly in there.
Like I don't feel great that atall.
So I think that's, we're justgonna have to keep our eye.
Like, I, I feel like this a lotwith Carly actually.
Cause like, you know, I'm likeCarly, will you just stay home?
Or, you know, with work-wiselike, if you're not feeling

(15:05):
well, just stay home.
And Carly's like such a hardworker and she likes to get out
of the house and I'm like, Carlytake a sick day.
And she's like, no, I just hadsurgery yesterday.
So it's today.
Like I can do it.

Carly (15:17):
She's making it sound way more serious than it actually
is.

Valerie (15:21):
I don't think that I am.
Anyway.
It's, you know, she's a superhard worker and I feel like I'm
that like, we can, we can wait amonth.

Carly (15:27):
And I'm like, please let me out of the house for the love
of God please.

Jelani (15:34):
Well, first I understand, I have a GA who is,
you know, who the like that,like she's ready, she's ready to
go.
And I'm kinda like, and you know, she's taken all the
precautions, social distance,but she is ready to mean.
She we're like, okay, it's timeto, go into community to
collect, but she's ready to go.
You know?

(15:55):
And you know, and I'm, I'm, I'malso to an extent, I'm kinda
talking to her to see that,well, you know, we may have to
do some things online lists.
But she says, it's good to seepeople who are just really
excited and you know, that's,that's who you like, that's
great.
That's who you want.

Valerie (16:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.

Jelani (16:17):
So I think you're doing something right, Carly.

Carly (16:19):
Well, yeah, but I feel super grateful to get to do the
work.
I think that it's reallyinteresting being in a methadone
clinic all day is something thatnot a lot of people, you know,
can say, and I sort of have theluxury of like being, having
everything from the bird's eyeview, you know, without actually
having to, you know, be in thethick of it.
So it's been a fantasticexperience.
So I, I can't wait to get back,but you know, I'm also all right

(16:41):
with waiting, I guess.

Valerie (16:43):
That's the pandemic.
Yeah.
Well, I was just going to takeus back and rewind a little bit
to some of your, um, to some ofyour early work and sort of ask
you about how you initially gotstarted working with, it looks
like a lot of, a lot of yourwork is at this intersection of

(17:03):
HIV prevention and treatmentstigma, and then often among
African American youth.
So we were sort of wondering,you know, why this population of
focus, why, why focus on HIVspecifically and stigma.
Sort of, how did you get intothis area?

Jelani (17:22):
So, I grew up, so I grew up in the eighties and nineties
when the HIV epidemic was first,was first coming to our
attention and first kind of...
And the first time we're seeingjust this rapid escalation of
HIV cases and, you know, andjust some of my formative years

(17:46):
just kind of seeing that and,you know, and I've met people
and I've known people and, whoknow have been living with HIV
and know some friends who havedied with it.
And so that, that's part of themotivation, but it's also the
fact that it's, it is, it is acondition that is acquired.

(18:10):
And if we look at, if we look at, uh, like a lot of other
diseases, like there's such arandomness to cancer, that, in
some respects, I almost feelhelpless to really address it.
You know, or, you know, heartdisease to an, heart disease to

(18:34):
an extent, but I mean, to me,that just didn't, that, they
just didn't really...You know, Ijust wasn't jazzed about that,
you know.

Valerie (18:44):
Fair.

Jelani (18:44):
And yeah.
And so I w ill look a t, so Iwas interested in mental health.
I was interested in HIV and HIVin a lot of ways is kind of all,
it is kind of meets at theintersection of a lot of these
different types of social marginalizations.

(19:07):
U m, so if you look at, if youlook at, l ike class issues like
HIV, that directly informs howHIV operates.
If you look at racism,homophobia, transphobia, just
all in all of these, y ou k now,a ll sexism, all of these-isms.

(19:29):
A nd, I'm like, this is where,like all of these things kind of
feed into HIV.
And then the fact that it, itaffected so many, it affects, so
many, African Americans so manypeople a nd, u m, I am, just
being younger and just m y kindof g etting wind of the stats
and just seeing how it, how itis and I'm, and I'm, I'm just

(19:53):
like, how is this, how's this,Hey, we have to do something
about this, especially becauseit's not fully explained, y ou
know.
The disparity, the ramp i n thedisparity rate, excuse me, the
disparity around HIV just cannotbe fully explained by the
behavior e ither.
They're just not, you, can't not, you can't just tell people
to change this b ehavior, changethat behavior and expect to

(20:15):
address these disparities.
It won't work because there area lot of social determinants
that help drive t hem.
Or there's something that'sreally u nfeasible in this.
That's a bit why I've gotinterested in, and the work that
I did, in, especially in gradschool kind of help.
Those are some of the projectsand some of the w ork f or the G

(20:36):
A that, u m, I started my careeroff with.
So, that's a, that's a bit o fhow I, how I was interested i n.
So all of those things c ometogether and that's how I'm,
that's now why I'm working inthe HIV field.

Valerie (20:55):
And just to underscore that, I mean, you said that you
can't explain these, thesedifferences that we see in the
data between how, you know, withhigher rates of HIV, among
African Americans than, thanwhite Americans is.
It's not just the behaviors.
So what, you know, so part ofwhat science has shown is that,

(21:18):
like people are using condoms inpretty similar rates.
It's not that like one groupversus the other is aging and
all of these like really riskysex related or drug use
behaviors.
It seems to be more like, um,you know, what you're saying is
these social determinants.
So things like, things like youknow, stigma as a social

(21:41):
determinant, but also just theidea that there's like, there's
more of HIV in some networksthan there are in others, just
like right now is COVID like,there's just more COVID in some
places than others.
So if like you go out to arestaurant in some places in the
US right now, you're just morelikely to get COVID then if you

(22:01):
were to go out to a restaurantin a different location.

Jelani (22:04):
Yeah.
Pretty, yeah, pretty much.
And I'm hoping that at somepoint we can get away from the
conversation about, you know,just focusing on behaviors,
because in my opinion, we'vebeen fed that for years, for
decades actually.
And, you know, and it's notreally brought us to where we

(22:24):
want to be or where we need tobe.
And so, you know, like a lot ofthings in health, these things
have a foundational structure.
Like a lot of inequities andheal from these things have a
foundational structure.
So, and I'm hoping that in thepublic health field, and
especially when we startedtalking and then the policy

(22:46):
fields, we can start taking aneye to those things because they
, they can be addressed, theycan be addressed in other
countries.

Valerie (22:58):
What are some of those things that you would like to,
you would like to see theconversation move in the
direction of?

Speaker 3 (23:05):
So first I, I do think that there needs to be
like just more resources putinto healthcare, just healthcare
in general.
And I think that would, I thinkthat would give people greater
access to tools that you needfor HIV prevention, whether it's
HIV testing or whether it's kindof used, or just being able to

(23:29):
go to the doctor and just talkand get counseling around like
sexual, sexual behavior andlike, what is, what does it mean
to be vulnerable to HIV and whatthat means?
So there are definitely, we cando in the healthcare field and
eh.
Am I allowed to say, we need auniversal, we need universal.

(23:53):
Yeah.
I mean a universal healthcare.

Valerie (23:56):
Absolutely.

Jelani (23:57):
Right.
And not, not as we'veconstructed it today, even with
the Affordable Care Act.
You know, I can, I can talk tohim.
I can talk a lot about some ofthe deficiencies with even our
most with even my, what appearsto be our most liberal approach

(24:17):
to healthcare.
And I think we're eminently ableto address that and we have the
resources to address that, butwe don't have the political
wheel and that's simply.
I think it's developing, butit's just simply not there
anyway.
I tend to go off on tangents.

Valerie (24:38):
I'm so with you, because I was having this
conversation with a friend lastnight, and at the end of the
conversation, I knew, I mean, itwas, it was, it was couched in
COVID.
I was like, I just don't thinkthat people in the states care
about health.
You know what I mean?
Like if we care, if health wasthe thing that we cared about,
we would have universal healthcare, we would be making wildly

(25:00):
different decisions when it cameto COVID.
I was like, I just think thatmaybe, like, I just don't know
that we care about health in thesame way.
And I mean, I shouldn't say we,cause I care about health, I'm
doing what I do, but like, youknow, I don't, you know, I don't
know if it's politics or what,but like, to me, health is so

(25:21):
foundational.
Like if you don't have health,you don't have anything, you
know, so.
Yeah,

Jelani (25:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know if this isstaggering that we have over a
hundred thousand people deadfrom COVID and that's probably
under the numbers that we havenow.
They're probably underreportedand it just seems like nobody

(25:47):
cares anymore.

Valerie (25:48):
Y eah.

Jelani (25:49):
Like, no, it's just business as usual.
It's like it's is it'sfrightening.
It's frightening.
It wasn't anyway, what's goingon?
What's going on?
Anyway.
Okay.
Your original question was howto be addressing HIV?

Valerie (26:05):
Yeah.
That's alright.
I think it's all connected.

Jelani (26:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so I think that universal,uh, universal healthcare would
be, would be a good thing.
I do.
I do think that, the way weeducate young people about sex
matters.
Comprehensives that the scienceshows that comprehensive sex
education works.

(26:29):
I understand why people may not,may not want it to go in that
direction, but, um, you know,social decision making gives, uh
, is an interesting thing.
If you're in favor of abstinenceonly education, but I can
understand that, you know, I'm a, you know, I'm a believer, I'm
a, you know, I was born again ata, you know, at a young age.

(26:49):
So I think, so I can definitelyunderstand that.
But at the same time, like foryoung people, for young people,
or if any, I'm not even going tosay if, if individuals are
interested in having sex, givingthem, or if they're not
interested in having sex, thentelling them how to protect

(27:09):
themselves, won't facilitatethat.
And that's just what theinvestors, what the data is is.

Valerie (27:16):
Yeah.
That's a really good point.
I've never, I've never thoughtabout it from that perspective,
but yeah, if they're not goingto do it, they're not going to
do it.
It's not gonna, they're notgonna be like, Oh, that's how
it's done.
Okay.

Carly (27:27):
Yeah.

Jelani (27:28):
R ight, right, right.

Valerie (27:30):
N o, t hat's n ot g oing t o h appen.
O kay.

Jelani (27:31):
Right, right.
Yeah.
C ause a lot of r easons wherethey are just kind of, when
people, when some people makethat decision, like a lot of
levels a re for really likepersonal reasons that they feel
strongly about.
And so, you know, a teachertalking to somebody about how to
protect themselves won'tnecessarily like give them to
change their mind o r when theydo decide that if they do get to

(27:55):
the point where they decide,okay, I want to do this.
Now they have the knowledge.

Valerie (27:57):
Right.
Yeah.
There's no student in thatclassroom who's like, I've been
just waiting for this teacher totell me about what a condom is.
And now that I have this,especially like in the internet
age, like now let me have thisinformation, put this condom on
this banana.
It's going to happen.
Right.
Zero times I think.

Jelani (28:18):
Oh yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Let's see, what else?
I think that, well, if we wantto get into my research, I've
this has started this, thismight be like, this might be
like starting with the pointfrom where the, where it should
end, but what I strongly believethat we need to reexamine drug

(28:41):
policies right here.
Not reexamine.
Look, we need to stop thiswarranty.
We need to legalize some stuff.

Valerie (28:48):
Okay.
Yeah.

Jelani (28:48):
A lot of people w ere just going to jail for things
that I'm not sure should beillegal.
Specifically, y ou k now,specifically drug charges, for
the development of the drugwars, y ou k now, not, you know.
There, there h ave been a lot ofarguments about his intent.

(29:11):
Not even k now, even the, u m,even the history of it and how
it's affected people of color,African Americans.
A lot of it, I think that justplain old, just plain old
getting rid of the prohibitionon it would keep people from

(29:33):
going to jail so often.
And if we can keep more people,more black people in the
community, there are farreaching to effects that m aking
not only, not only address HIVin the community, but also, y ou
k now, i mprove t hat in my, inmy opinion, improve the

(29:54):
wellbeing and the health ofAfrican Americans in this
country in general.

Carly (30:02):
Absolutely.

Jelani (30:04):
So.

Valerie (30:05):
Could we delve a little bit into the intentionality of
the war on drugs?

Jelani (30:10):
Okay.
Sure, sure.
So the history lesson for today.
So in my, in the article thereare you gather referencing is we
talk about drug war, HIVinequities model.
And I do, and I give a briefhistory about what's the drug

(30:32):
war.
How did they, you know, how did,how did it start and where did
the cover?
And we know that there are some,we know there was messaging
around drugs that began in the20, early 20th century, maybe
even a little bit before that,or even before the early 20th
century, but a lot of the focuson the war on drugs like rape.

(30:54):
Or a lot of the messaging arounddrugs and, and how it's been.
And, and the nature of thatmessaging in the of beginning of
the earliest 20th century, it'sa guy, um, Harry Anslinger, um,
uh, you know, it was, you know,the government administrator
tasked with, at one point he wastasked with helping to execute

(31:15):
alcohol prohibition.
So.

Valerie (31:20):
Very successful career.
Legacy.

Jelani (31:24):
Right, right.
So he's t asked w ith t his kindof at a point where the tide is
kind of turning around howpeople think about how people
think about alcohol.
And so even here he a nswered, you k now, at one point he's kind
of like, you know, listen, marijuana i s n ot t hat really,
really not that big of a deal.
You know, we don't need toreally p ull that w eight, but
they in prohibition wasrepealed.

(31:46):
T hat's a ll you g uy.
So you have this guy who has agovernment agency really that
serves no purpose.

Valerie (31:52):
Okay.
That's interesting.
His initial stance is marijuana,no big deal, but you know, I'm
in charge of this agency, that'sreally focused on alcohol.
So then his agency is shut downand he's got nothing to do.

Jelani (32:05):
Right, right, right.
I mean, like, they, like, thinkabout it this time.
People like drugs or not reallystigmatized drug use is not
really stigmatized.

Valerie (32:15):
Oh yeah.
There's like morphine use in thewake of world.
Sorry of the civil war.
There's like a lot of people, uh, yeah.
I was doing a deep, uh, somewhathistory, dive myself on the
history of like, like opioidwaves in the US cause this is
like just, we're kind of in thelatest, y ou k now, wave of
opioid years.
Add more in the past.

(32:37):
Oh y eah.
Like cocaine i n our Coca Cola.

Jelani (32:41):
Right, right, right.
And, you know, in Housewives orjust, you know, just taking,
taking a little, hit a of opiumjust every now and again.
You know, and it's really not abig deal, but, um, there is kind
of a, like during this timethere is kind of a growing
sentiment culturally around druguse, but a lot of it is time,

(33:05):
but a lot of the messagingaround around drugs, especially
promoted by Anslinger is thisidea that the drug, the drug use
has kind of racialized somarijuana.
So the Mexicans are doingmarijuana.

(33:25):
And, you know, and the agentsare promoting, are promoting
opium and they're bringing it towhere our neighbor and the black
people are promoting heroin.
And he really had this big thingwith, by JS Singers and trying
to break up the JS.
Yeah.
And so,

Valerie (33:45):
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean, someone who's reallyprofoundly racist wants to take
down JS.

Jelani (33:51):
Yeah.
He's trying, he's trying to,he's trying to keep black people
from, I mean, this is like arudimentary explanation of it,
but like on something like, he'sjust trying to keep black people
and white people from, frominteracting with each other, I
think so a large extent to, toprevent miscegenation.
And, and so, and so he, youknow, he's just going after JS

(34:16):
and in this JS court and tryingto keep you from going to it
because the black people aredoing, you know, the white
people are using and like, he,he, he really goes after Billy
Holiday.

Valerie (34:30):
Yeah.
Okay.

Jelani (34:33):
Yeah.
So I read her autobiography andshe, and even back then, she's
talking, she's talking to meabout why are we, why are we
paying, analyzing in a legalsense?
People who are using people whohave addiction issues.
Cause she, she went throughthese long periods of life.
She went through these periodsof like trying to quit, trying

(34:55):
to quit and then, you know, andthen, and then, you know, using
again and like, no, Anthony wasjust at her, you know.
Right, right.
And so that's how we startedthinking.
That's how we start thinkingabout drugs in a racial sense.
Okay.

(35:16):
So then we get to, you know, sothen we take this into the Nixon
administration.

Valerie (35:24):
I'm so glad that you're leading the history lesson.
Cause I, I was going to start uswith Nixon.
So this is, this is reallygreat.
Cause we went back like, youknow, decades before when I
cheated it.
Yeah.
Okay.
So now we read Nixon, which iswhere a lot of people start with
the war on drugs conversation.

Jelani (35:42):
Right, right.
So

Valerie (35:44):
I'm glad we're talking to you.

Jelani (35:47):
Well, I'm happy to be talking to y'all too.
So Nixon, Nixon, he he'sactually the person who in the
national center, a presidentialpoliticians started saying like,
we need to prosecute this war ondrugs as public enemy number
one.

(36:07):
In reality, my, in the, in thecultural, in the cultural
gestalt, nobody is really caringthat much.

Valerie (36:15):
Oh really?
Okay.
So he's like stirring the pot?

Jelani (36:18):
Right?
Right.
I mean, it's a part of whatpolitics is, I think, and I
think some people are better atthis than others is putting your
issues out on the front linewhen, you know, prioritizing
your issues within the nationalconversation because that's what
gets legislated.
Well, what drug use womennecessarily in the national

(36:43):
conference conversation likethat?
Um, you know, according,according to the sources I've
looked at.
But, you know, but he does starttalking about this war on drugs
and he dedicates some resourcesto it.
But you know, I'm not sayingthat what he does, what he did
is benign, but his war on drugs,a lot of it is rhetorical.

(37:08):
Yeah.
A lot of it is, you know, a lotof it is just talking about it.
It's not really until we get tothe eighties to when we get the
drug war that we know it, as weknow it today out out, let me...
And that's under Reagan.
But let me back up about Nixonfor one...
Because there is, there is onething there's a, there's a, um,

(37:31):
he did have a staff member,somebody, a member of his
cabinet come out and say, youknow listen the reason we
started talking to John or withme, the reason we started
talking about drugs is becauseit's kind of a backlash to the
Civil rights movement and to amp, towards giving the...into the,
into the antiwar movement.

Valerie (37:49):
Right.

Jelani (37:49):
So kind of says, listen, we can't make it illegal for you
to be against the Vietnam war orto be Black.
But since some people, but nowsince we think that, you know,
some of the protestors and quoteunquote hippies are using
marijuana and you know, and so,you know, we think black people
are using drugs too.

(38:09):
We'll just incar...we'll justincarcerate them.
We can't make a deal.
We can't make being Black orbeing anti-war legal, but we can
make drugs.
And yeah.
And that's kind of the impetusor from his perspective, that's
the impetus for that to be fair.
There have been other peoplefrom his cabinet who said, no,
that's not the case, but Bettyis out there.

(38:31):
We have to, and we have to be awhip, you know, we do have to
deal with it.
Right.

Valerie (38:36):
Yeah.
It's definitely gotten someattention of late.
Like I remember, I mean...
As I, as I dig throuh, that'swhat often comes up as you like
dig through that.
Um, you know, some of thereporting on it is, and that's
why, you know, and I think we'reon drugs.
My mind goes to Nixon because Ithink of those quotes.
So it's interesting to hear, youknow, what was going on earlier

(38:57):
and then also to think like, Oh,it was largely, largely
rhetorical until the eightieswhen we get some of these
policies that you've writtenabout, you know, in some of your
work and how just how superdamaging they are.

Jelani (39:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, and it's also worthnoting that this shows us where
we can make, we can make theargument that the drug war is
racist in intent.
And, and here's the, you know,here's the data to kind of show

(39:30):
it.
Yeah.

Valerie (39:32):
Yeah.
That's interesting too, because,um, I was doing some thinking
for I had to prep somethinglately where I had to talk
through the purpose of stigmaand, you know, one of the
purposes of stigma, especiallyfor racism is to oppress, right.
And so if the drug war is astructural manifestation of
racism, essentially, then it'sdoing a really good job

(39:54):
oppressing.
So it's not, you know, stigmaserves a function and often, you
know, it kind of varies more orless sometimes I think with like
how purposeful people are and,you know, having the, in
enacting those functions, like,you know, the function of stigma

(40:16):
with something like HIV or COVIDis like, you know, to keep
people away.
It's like this disgust reaction.
Well, that might be like, youknow, less purposeful, but this
struggle where, I mean, that'sreally on purpose.
That's like a purposefuloppression example

Jelani (40:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think so.
And just as we've, as we've gonethrough now this time through
democratic and republican,republican administrations, um,
but we've just seen this thingcontinuously be prosecuted, um,
like mass incarceration beginsin the eighties, and it

(40:50):
escalates up until today.
Allow this because of, you know,drug changes in drug policy at
the federal and state level.
You know, and just these gettough on crime policies.
Now they have been againsupported by presidents and, and

(41:11):
Congress members in bothparties.
So, you know, it's, it's justbeen a lot of, you know, there's
just been a lot of, a lot ofpoliticians coming up and
working and just trying to oneup each other, who's going to be
tough on crime.
Who's going to be tougher ondrugs, to the point where, you
know, to the point where we,when we start thinking about it,

(41:34):
or at least when I startedthinking about it like this,
this makes sense.
Why are we dealing withaddiction using, using the
criminal justice apparatus,right.

Valerie (41:46):
We don't do it for cancer patients for not like,
Oh, you have cancer, let's getyou to jail, you know?

Jelani (41:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, like calling, I mean,like you think police officers
to process to try to deal withaddiction, just, it makes, it
makes me it's outside of theperfect, right.
That's like me calling a doctorif I hear somebody beating a
woman in the apartment.
Like, what is he gonna do?

Valerie (42:12):
Let me grab my stethoscope.
I'm on my way.

Jelani (42:15):
I don't know.
I don't know.
I mean, it just makes no sense.
It doesn't make total sense.
So, yeah.
So, you know, so I'm just hopingthat at some point we can like
just kind of get to the pointwhere we can at least marijuana
legalize marijuana.
And for people who havedifferent addiction, different

(42:39):
types of addictions, especiallysome of the harder drugs that we
can really like buttress ourtreatment, um, apparatus as
well, because remember duringthis time where there were mass
incarceration is going up andwe're putting more money into
prisons and law enforcement,they're, they're cutting money
from social services.

Valerie (43:01):
Right.
Yeah.
That's where it's coming from.
Yeah.

Jelani (43:05):
Right.
So, I mean, it's, it's just odd.
Like you're, you're going tolike, like you lock people up
for addiction, but then you takeaway the thing that's going to
help them get off theiraddiction.
And so, you know, so there's,there's just all of this.
And then when we, and then whatas it relates to HIV

(43:29):
specifically, like there are afew ways that this makes Black
communities more vulnerable toHIV.
One of the first things that wetalked, one of the first things
is that know just what happenswhen people are over policed and
they're giving longer sentencesfor similar crimes, more serious

(43:53):
charges.
You know, when you do that, youextract just a lot of, you
extract a lot of black men outof, out of the community.
And, you know, that can knowthat can do some peculiar things
too, like sexual networkingdynamics.

Valerie (44:15):
That's like a really light way to say that.
When you take out all the menand you put them in, in prison
that just, you know, does somestrange things to how people are
having sex with each other.
Okay.
So what does it do?

Jelani (44:29):
So, so the way to talk about this is like, there are
just not enough man to go aroundafter you, after you take so
many of them out of any, out ofany community.
Okay.
And if you take away so manythat first of all, that disrupts

(44:50):
a lot of monogamousrelationships.
And monogamy does help undermineHIV.

Valerie (44:57):
Absolutely.

Jelani (45:00):
So you're breaking, so you're breaking up these
relationships.
And I think this would happenjust in any community.
L ike if there are like largenumbers of women, you have a lot
of heterosexual men.
This can be in any community.
Some people may take advantageof i t.

Valerie (45:24):
Yeah.
It's just been, I'm a socialpsychologist, there's the power
of the situation at play.

Jelani (45:31):
Right, right.
And there that can, um, youknow, some people may, some
people may do that.

Valerie (45:39):
You have some people having sex with multiple
partners because...

Jelani (45:44):
Yeah.
Right now.
Yeah.
So you may have, we call itsexual concurrency.

Valerie (45:48):
R ight.

Jelani (45:48):
So that's all t hat, y ou k now, a nd that's a, b ut
the literature on this is a bitmixed.
So like, so I've seen somearticles that kind of say, well,
you know, sexual concurrentsexual concurrency is a really
good way to spread a spread, anydisease, any sexually

(46:11):
transmitted disease earlier,faster and more, more
prominently within a community.
A nd n ow o bviously i n one ortwo studies that are kind of
like, well, you know, the effects of that m ay b e, you
know, maybe a little bit may notbe as high as we think, but, but
you know, that it is somethingthat, y ou k now, we need to

(46:33):
look at.
Okay.
So you may have more sexualconcurrency.
Sometimes, u m, again, canhappen i n any community and
just take me out of it, butthere's like, well, what does
that mean for like, u h, forlike, for women's ability to
like s ay, to engage in sexualnegotiation, from a p osition,

(46:55):
from a position of power.
From a position of a greaterpower, y ou k now?
So, s o, so that's one thing forpeople who are living with i t,
t hat's one, that's one way thatit can make communities more
vulnerable to HIV.
Another way is that if y ou're,if you put a lot of people in a
prison.
Like when they get out, the wayour society is structured, we

(47:18):
are people who are, u h, peoplewho are, who have a history of
incarceration.
U m, t hey're kind of, thepenalties for remain after you
get out.
So, so there are l ess access tojobs.
There are less access to socialprovisions, things like housing
a nd things like, b ut all ofthese things you just need to

(47:40):
eat and be healthy, eat l ive,have a place to stay, be
healthy.
U m, and you put people with,and you put people at greater
risk for poverty when you dothat.
And there is a, there is a verystrong relationship between
poverty and HIV.
There's a r elationship.

(48:01):
There's a strong relationshipbetween poverty and like any
disease, but we're placing morepeople i n poverty.
And access to h ealth c are canbe a little...
They don't care.
It can be t empered in thatsituation.
If you undermine people's accessto h ealthcare.
Well, one of the main, one ofthe main things that's really

(48:23):
helping to drive HIV rates downright now is the strategy of
trying to test people early, get them promptly, treated a nd
promptly into care and, andmaking sure people are engaged
in care, m onitored, a nd care,and are given access to
antiretrovirals, which are drugsthat help address HIV.

(48:45):
And the drugs and themedications have gotten a lot
better over time.
U m, more effective.
And to the point t o where viralsuppression can be so low to the
point where you, wheretransmission is g oing t o go
down.

Valerie (49:00):
Right.

Jelani (49:01):
Well, if people are having trouble accessing
healthcare, and most people geth ealthcare from their jobs...
is g oing t o prevent them fromgetting t here.
Now maybe they can, maybe theycan access around white, b ut we
s till need to buttress likethis.

Valerie (49:19):
Red and white is like some extra support, funding to
help get people connected intocare.
But yeah, I mean, you still haveall of these hoops, you know,
often that you need to navigate.
And there, there areorganizations out there that
really, I mean, one of theprimary things that they do is
just like help people figure outhow to like access, um, services
through Ryan White and thingslike that.

(49:40):
So it's not, it takes a goodamount of, you know, what we
might call like health literacyor understanding of how to get
through the system to access allof that.
So, yeah, I mean, circling backto what you were saying earlier,
if we had universal health carethen anyone could just access
their HIV meds.
And you know what you're saying,essentially, like if you take

(50:01):
your HIV medication, itessentially like keeps the
virus, the virus circulating inyour blood so low that it's
undetectable.
And if it's so low that it'sundetectable when you run a
test, then it's like, it'sreally hard.
Some would say you're just notgoing to pass it on to other
people.

Jelani (50:20):
Right.
Right.
Right.
And so, I mean, so though, sothose are just a couple of the,
to where our drug policy hasthis reverberating effect
through Black communities.
It makes people more, morevulnerable to HIV.
You know, some through in someof these are through pathways or
behavior and some of the beadsare just in pathways with access

(50:43):
to care and, you know, and thestress and the social and the
stress, stress and the stigmaand social marginalization of
maybe not only being HIVpositive, but also being, but
also having a history ofincarceration.
Which, for which, for somereason, people who are living

(51:04):
with HIV, are more likely to beincarcerated.
Not quite, not quite sure why,but there is this relationship
between those, you know, betweenthose two just mere
incarceration and HIV.

Valerie (51:18):
Like a, you know, there's a lot of attention right
now to intersectionalintersectional stigma.
So living with, you know,multiple characteristics, maybe
that might be stigmatized oroppressed in some sort of way.
And this just strikes me as likea really heavy stigma storm when
you add, you know, that racismthat people experience and then

(51:38):
stigma associated maybe withsubstance use, depending on the
substance that they're using.
And then like when you add inincarceration and then HIV.
I mean, that's such a pronouncedstigma storm.
I mean, what does di, have you,do you talk to people about
their experiences of stigma,sort of at the intersection of

(52:00):
all of those things?
Do have you done work there?
Or a lot of, it sounds like whatyou're talking about is really
though, like structural issuesthat people face.
Is that mostly what you focuson?

Jelani (52:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so we do, so I have a, um,well, she's not my student, but
she's working on, herdissertation is on that topic.
Yeah.
Especially I see the, she, theshe's a social worker in the
School of Global Public Healthand she's worked on some

(52:34):
efforts.

Valerie (52:34):
So is she going to call it the stigma storm.
Is that the name of herdissertation?

Jelani (52:38):
Well, I'mma call her up and I'm gonna tell her by the
way.
Valerie says...

Valerie (52:44):
As a committee member or...
Alright, sorry.
I didn't mean to cut you off.
So continue.
So you have somebody workfocusing on that a little bit.

Jelani (52:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And so that's, that's being metthere.
That information is beinganalyzed right now.
So we're hoping to know more andI can give you a more robust
answer.
But yeah.
But yeah, well, I do think thatthe, the, the nature of stigma,

(53:13):
especially stigma around HIVjust overlaps with other types
of stigmas as well.
You know, is, like you cannot,it hard to disentangle, um, the
stigma around HIV with thestigma around sexual and gender
minorities, but you just can'treally, you can't really

(53:35):
disentangle that.
But I'm hoping that we can bringattention to recognizing that
for as a considerable subgroupof people who are living with
HIV, you can't disentangle, um,that, uh, that stigma, the
stigma around like having ahistory of incarceration as
well.
I did some, I did this, asmaller study have had about 30

(53:58):
people in it.
You know, and this is a, a studylike that is usually used to
like step up to inform, to likehelp scale up for a bigger
study.
So it helps people recognize,Hey, there may be something here
let's do something bigger orlet's fund something bigger
where that can be recognized.

(54:19):
And then that's like, there wasa, uh, dailies, I think, these
correlations, or they just tosee if there were relationships
between stigma, around being astigma around living with HIV.
And stigma around, um, having ahistory of incarceration.
So with a small study, it lookslike there is, it looks like

(54:42):
there is an association betweenthe two.

Valerie (54:46):
So if I experience more of one then I also experienced
more of the other?

Jelani (54:50):
Not necessarily that, but just that, they're the
relationship that if you putthese two together, they're kind
of, they can kind of work intandem.

Valerie (55:01):
Got it.
Okay.

Jelani (55:02):
Yeah.
So, and, and w eather and theways in which t hey means we're
still, we're still g oing t ohave to figure out, I think t
he, I think the K award c an,even though the K award with
HIV, negative people or people who don't have their HIV status
confirmed positive may get, u h,I think that'd be an interesting

(55:23):
question to explore there.

Valerie (55:26):
Yeah.
So the K award is a big deal.
It just came, that also camethrough this summer.
So you're having a big summer,right?
The K award is a big act.
It's pretty big research grantin that and, and can still say
facilitate some training, whichis great.
Cause as we talked aboutearlier, we're like always
training, but it'll protect, youknow, most of your time to

(55:47):
engage in your scholarship overthe next couple of years.
So, we'd love to hear more aboutthat and what you're, what
you're doing and what you'refocusing on within that project.

Jelani (55:58):
Okay.
Well, so the K award focuses on,or the research arm of the K
focuses on people who have ahistory of incarceration and HIV
testing behavior and how thatrelates to various types of
stigma.
African Americans, 18 to 24 yearold, 18 to 24 years old.

(56:19):
Why, why that age group?
Because that's a year where alot of people enter into
corrections or are put undercorrectional control, but it's
also a time where, we're seeinga lot, we're seeing people

(56:40):
contract HIV.
So, um, and so for the reasons Iexplained earlier in the
podcast, I think it's importantto look at who look at HIV
testing behavior for peopleafter they get out.
So that we've established thatthis is a group that may be at

(57:02):
elevated vulnerability.
So if so, what is, what are someof the things that are going to
inform their participation inthe, in the continuum of care,
getting tested for HIV?
And if they're positive going,going on to, see a doctor and,
and get, and take theirprescriptions.

(57:24):
And so we're looking at that.
We're also looking at people'sattitudes towards the courts and
people's attitudes towards intheir interactions with the
police.

Valerie (57:35):
Oh, that's interesting.
What do you, what are youthinking, your, do you have any
hypotheses about what you thinkyou're going to find, or is it
more exploratory?

Jelani (57:43):
It's more exploratory, it's more exploratory.
I wouldn't be surprised if wefound that people have a
negative people have a negativeview, especially given.
Right.
Right.
I mean, I think we can safelysay that during this moment
where we're seeing a lot ofAfrican American individuals, a

(58:06):
lot of Black individuals whohave been subject to, you know,
what has been described aspolice brutality.
Prescription bait, you know, Ithink is, I think it's fair.
Um,

Valerie (58:20):
I mean it's caught on camera.
It looks brutal.

Jelani (58:23):
Right, right.
Yeah.
It's all right.
So forth.
Researchers tend to temper theirwords.

Valerie (58:30):
Yeah.
Like this whole conversation,like, you're just...
One of the things I've beenthinking about lately is that in
getting tenure, I'm like, I feellike I'm, I've gotten very good
at like playing the game.
You know what I mean?
Like, you know, the rules of thegame, you know, you like, so I
can, you know, I can hear, youknow, your ear, a lot of your,

(58:51):
like your scientist coming outand like, you know, maybe it's
brutal.
Some evidence suggests it couldbe brutal.

Jelani (58:58):
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, that's how we weretrained to talk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it's like, here's thescience, but we can't really
know for sure.
We're 99% sure.
But we have to leave at 1%.
So we'd say, so we temper outlanguage a little bit, whereas,

(59:20):
and I don't know, in terms ofreally seeing and part of the
really advocating for policiesthat we in changes that we want
to see.
I, I don't know if that's alwaysa good thing because like, in
terms of the messaging, I thinkmost people understand, like
this is proven, this is policebrutality.

Valerie (59:39):
Right.

Jelani (59:40):
When, when you add a bunch of extra words to it and
that really, it kind of keeps itfrom you kind of filters the
message or doubles the message.
So the opinion of joining methat a lot of these things are
police brutality or these thingsare police brutality.
And, and remember I'm inLouisville.
So, you know, Breonna Taylor wehad.
Yeah.

(01:00:03):
And so now we're collecting,we're collecting data here and,
you know, that's, that'shappened.
A woman was, you know, a womanwas invaded and, and police came
to the wrong house and shattershe's dead.
And there's been no real, in myopinion, nobody's really like

(01:00:24):
where there's been there haven'tbeen any type of accountability
that I would like to see, nor amI confident that they'll happen.

Valerie (01:00:31):
Right.

Jelani (01:00:32):
Right.
Which brings me to another case,which brings me to another,
another point.
And I hope I'm not talking toomuch, but you'll stop me.
Right.
Which brings me to another pointthat we're doing a lot, you
know, we've been screaming aboutthis for years, you know, for

(01:00:52):
years, like we, I grew up withlike, just an, just an idea of,
you know, I'm going to have tobe a little more wary about the
police than other people.
You know, and, another side, I'mnot quite sure how we got to the
point where people think thatprotesting police brutality is

(01:01:14):
the same thing as protestingpolice, but just don't.

Valerie (01:01:17):
Yeah, no, that's a really good point.
Yeah.
It's totally different.
Those are two.
Yeah.

Jelani (01:01:22):
Right, right.
And I'm, and I'm not, and Idon't think that, and I think
there are dishonest actors whoare promoting that, who are
promoting that narrative, butfor their own, for their own
means, but you know, such as thesuch as the history.
But I think that, you know, I'malways had I've always had, I

(01:01:44):
always had the kind of thing,like, alright, you know, like
you, you gotta call them things.
You gotta call them things gowrong.
There's nothing wrong with that,but I, interactions are not
always positive.
And yeah.
And it does.
Yeah.
Getting back to the research.

Valerie (01:02:05):
Here's the interesting thing, you know, because like, I
think that we're scientists andwe're people, right.
Those two experiences are reallyintertwined.
And I think that, um, you know,our experiences as people can be
a real strength for our, youknow, perspectives as
scientists.
And so I think like one of thethings I'm hoping to do more

(01:02:26):
like, you know, with tenure isto like bring more of all of
myself to science.
And, but I do think that there'slike there for some people
there's, there's some pushbackabout that.
Like, it makes us less objectiveif we bring our experiences to
it.
Like, I, I also, I think thatthat is like a critique of it,

(01:02:48):
but I don't know that anyone hasever told like a white man.
Like if you have, you, have youbring your perspective to this,
like you're not being objective.
Like I think that that like ismore targeted towards certain
people.
But anyway, I think that those,I think it's hard, maybe

(01:03:09):
impossible to separate that.
And I think all we can do is behonest in our science, you know,
which is actually something thatwe learned from Sam Friedman
earlier this summer on anotherepisode.
He's like scientific objectivitymight be bullshit.
He said, be honest with our, youknow, with our endeavor, but I'm

(01:03:32):
not sure that I would say it'sthat it's bullshit.
But I do think that we're asscientists, we're full people
and we get, you know, we bringeverything to the plate, so.

Jelani (01:03:42):
Okay.
Okay, cool.
Well, yeah, I would agree withit.
But, but yeah.
It's yeah, I agree with that.
So, okay.
I'll talk about the police thinga little more then.
Um, so yeah, just so you know, Ithink I like a lot of African

(01:04:03):
American men.
There's just been a lot ofsuspicion and when you're
growing up and some of the, someof the experiences that you have
can validate that don't get mewrong.
I have positive experiences withpolice and just you know met
some really cool people, youknow, have friends over, you
know, whatever.
But, well, what the, you know,I'd be lying if I said that, you

(01:04:27):
know, they've all been positive.
Can I be lying if I say, Ididn't think there was some
things that were race based.
I think I've been in anenvironment where liker, like
where harassment of Black peoplefor it has been used as a
cottage industry for, as arevenue stream for attack.

(01:04:48):
And, you know, and it's like, ifyou're like my, my friend, I
don't know why, you know whatI'm saying?
Like, we're sitting hereliterally on our property doing
nothing and you know, so why,why are we even talking?
I have business here.
Why aren't we talking?
Why are we interacting?
But this is why I actually livehere.

(01:05:10):
And what are you not?
And what are you doing?
I didn't call you.
Who's asking you to come here?
Anyway then.
And so, you know, and you know,I have friends who, you know,
suffer police brutality, um,family members, you know, just
really awful stuff.
It's so sad.
You know, I mean like actualphysical police brutality.

Valerie (01:05:35):
Oh wow.
Yeah.

Jelani (01:05:36):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, we've, we've beenhere and I'm seeing, you know,
I'm seeing just the use of force, um, for, on our people.
I'm like, Hmm.
That's like, why, why don't getme wrong?
I do recognize that people havelike, people have jobs end there
and there's danger in it.

(01:05:56):
And I do recognize that therehas been driven, but I think
that a lot of the ways thatpeople are being...
a lot of the ways that peopleare being trained, they're not
like this isn't a problem of badapples, right?
This isn't a problem with badapples.
The people are actually trained.
I think people are actuallytrained to be more aggressive

(01:06:18):
than they need, you know, thenthey need to be.
And so like if people were beingtrained in a way that is
obviously costly forcommunities, then can we really
blame them?
Or can you blame the fact thatthey're getting so much training
across the camp that we'veinstitutionalized training

(01:06:38):
across the country, our port,like this is a system wide
problem.
This isn't a problem with badapples.
It's just a lot.
This is a wide problem.
We go after, but there's a lotof proactive policing in areas
where it's not warranted.
Right.
So Malcolm Gladwell talks aboutthis in his book, in his book,

(01:06:58):
"Talking to Strangers" and hereally makes this really
interesting point in that likehis, the police officer's
interaction with Sandra Bland.
Yeah.
He may have been a little moreaggressive than he needed to be,
but this is what he's trained todo this in a way that police

(01:07:20):
officers are across the countryare trained to do this.
And even, and even if you have,even if you have people who are
a little more, who are morereasonable in their execution of
how they do, and I met them,I've met people who have been
very reasonable in theirexecution.
They're still, they're still thefake bads.

(01:07:41):
People are trained in a way thatreally, that is appropriate in
some instances, but notappropriate in others.

Valerie (01:07:52):
Absolutely.
Yeah.

Jelani (01:07:53):
Yeah.
And I think, and I think the, Ithink the breadth of the
situations where things may beinappropriate or it's just too
large,

Valerie (01:08:06):
If it was a couple bad apples, we wouldn't see a
pattern of effects, you know?
I mean, there's like, there'sjust a pattern of things
happening and you know, there'sstarting to be better research
on, right?
Like, you know, even just takingthe, what is that the need of
the neck thing that stranglespeople to death?

(01:08:27):
Like if you don't, you know,that's just like one a, that's
like a systemic systemic thing.
Like people are taught to dothat.
And then they do that.
And then people, people die.
I mean, so don't teach people todo that.
It's just like one, maybe amillion examples, but that's a,
it is, it's a training thing.
It's culture thing.
It's like, that's, that's not abad apple thing so much as a way

(01:08:47):
we've people have learned how todo things.

Jelani (01:08:50):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so it just makes no sense.
Again, another one of thosethings that I just think makes
no sense.
Okay.
Sorry.
So where are we?
I forgot what we are...

Valerie (01:09:09):
Well, we were asking you a little bit about your K
award, maybe for an a, if we'rethinking a little bit about
positionality, maybe I'll, I'llask you, you know, what is it
like for you as an AfricanAmerican man to who's had these
experiences with the criminaljustice system and who has had,
you know, family membersaffected by HIV and all of this,

(01:09:31):
how is it like for you to, to dothis type of research?

Jelani (01:09:37):
So let me clarify.
Not necessarily family members,but like good friends were like
good friends, but like real lifefriends.

Valerie (01:09:48):
O kay.

Jelani (01:09:48):
Well.
Well.
I don't want t o say goodfriends, b ut friends.
Y ou k now, f olks who I've mett hrough m et through the course
of my work and you know, justliving, y ou know.
But what we, u m, so how does my, how d id my position a s a n
African American man informedit?

Valerie (01:10:07):
Yeah.
Just what is it like?
Is it like, does it feel reallyinvigorating to do this research
?
Like, do you feel like, yes, I'mdoing it.
Do you feel exhausted and tiredby it?
Like, like he can't turn off.
I have a lot of feelings aboutdoing sexism research, for
example, it like bums me out.
I'll be tired.

Jelani (01:10:23):
Yeah.
I'm kind of, I'm actually kindof energized about it because
it's, it's like, I feel like I'min some small way, finding
something that I think is wrong.
In some small way, I think thatis like, this is, this is a big
elephant.
My piece, my small piece is totackle this part of it now.

(01:10:47):
And hopefully it can bemeaningful.
Cause some people in somerespects, hopefully we can save
lives on a larger, on a largerlevel.
So for the most part, it isenergizing.
So you know, when you're behindyour computer at one o'clock in

(01:11:07):
the morning doing it and youknow, your wife would look at me
like, what are you doing?
I mean, that's why it's stillenergizing, but it's still, you
know, for that being said, itcan still be pretty...
I mean, it's like, this ispainful to see, yeah.
This is painful to see.
These are literally issues oflife and death and it's, it's

(01:11:28):
just painful to see.

Valerie (01:11:30):
Yeah, it is.

Jelani (01:11:39):
I mean, there was research on this where this is
like passively traumatizing.

Valerie (01:11:43):
Okay.

Carly (01:11:43):
Absolutely.

Valerie (01:11:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
We're glad that you're doing thework because I don't think it is
a small way.
I, I, I mean, I'm in the fieldbecause I think that there is,
uh, you know, there's definitelypower and understanding, you
know?
I mean, it takes it from a placeof like, you know, people say
that this is how it works, butyou know, they're making that

(01:12:08):
up.
Like it takes it out of thatsort of like gray zone and into
like, no, this, this is how itworks.
And if you, if you can show thatthis is how these things work,
then that gives power to changeit.
You know, that gives an evidencebase to create better policies
to do better things.
I mean, it gives more attentionto these issues.

(01:12:28):
So I think it's a big monsterway to do it.
I think it's fantastic.
So maybe I'm biased cause I'm,you know, I'm in the trenches
here with you doing the samething.
And so I'm trying to findmeaning at all, but...

Jelani (01:12:43):
Y eah, I'm glad you're here.
You're doing really importantwork.

Valerie (01:12:47):
I think we both are.
Yeah.
I think we're glad to be in thetrenches.
I was just going to say, isthere anything else that we
didn't ask you about that weshould have, or did we, did we

(01:13:08):
cover a good amount of ground?

Jelani (01:13:12):
I think we covered some good ground.
I feel like I have to put thisdisclaimer.
Okay.
All police officers are not bad.
I don't want it to getmisconstrued with positive
interactions, but like wedefinitely there definitely have
a system wide problem.
And what is our grief?

(01:13:34):
You know what scandal is aboutthis isn't just what has some
individual actors have done, butjust the way the system
operates, like this is awful,this is a prison.

Carly (01:13:45):
Absolutely.

Valerie (01:13:47):
We're going to underline and bold that in our
transcript.

Jelani (01:13:54):
Okay.
I'm so happy to be here.

Valerie (01:14:08):
So in this episode, Jelani mentioned Breonna Taylor,
because you know, in part,because she was from Louisville.
So inspired by the Say Her Namemovement, we wanted to dedicate
this rap to Breonna.

Carly (01:14:23):
Yeah.
So to tell you guys a little bitmore about Breonna Taylor, she
was a 26 year old EMT who waskilled when police officers
executing a no knock warrant inthe middle of the night, killed
her in her apartment inLouisville, Kentucky, Breonna
was known to her friends andfamily as someone who loved
playing board games, phase 10and skip over her favorites.
She loved being with her familywhen she wasn't working

(01:14:43):
tirelessly as an EMT, working tohelp others in our community.
And then on June 5th, what wouldhave been Breonna Taylor's 27th
birthday, many people use thehashtag say her name to remember
her and to raise awareness abouther case to Say Her Name
movement also brings awarenessto other Black women who similar
stories may not have garnered asmuch national attention.

Valerie (01:15:08):
So I was digging around in the peer reviewed academic
literature, as I often do whenI'm trying to, you know,
understand something further.
And I found this really amazingarticle by Michelle Jacobs.
It was written in 2017 and it'stitled"The Violent State Black

(01:15:28):
Women's Invisible StruggleAgainst Police Violence".
My original plan was just toread you the full 67 pages of
the article, but Carly told methat we might not have enough
space on Sprout to host all.

Carly (01:15:43):
Right.
That was the only reason, butyes,

Valerie (01:15:46):
Yeah, that's he only reason.
But I thought maybe what wecould do is talk through some of
the things in this article thatreally stuck out to me.

Carly (01:15:55):
Yeah.
Which there were a lot of them.

Valerie (01:15:58):
So many.
Yeah.
Okay.
So the first thing is just aquote from Dr.
Jacobs.
I mean she says"Black women aresubjected to every type of law
enforcement violence imaginable.
The most severe violence causesdeath, but Black women are
routinely brutalized by theviolence or by the police in
ways that do not cause death,".

(01:16:20):
So that to me was reallystriking because you know, we're
talking about Breonna Taylor andthere's a lot of conversation
around, we don't talk enoughabout women who have been killed
by police.
And that's like at one end ofthe spectrum.
So just this idea that there isthis routine brutalization

(01:16:41):
that's happening all the timethat we're not really talking
about was really alarming toknow, to think about.
So she then goes on to say thatthe relationship between Black
women and the state was birthedin violence.
I was just like, what a quote.

Carly (01:16:59):
Right.

Valerie (01:16:59):
Yeah.
Birthed in violence.
I thought that was reallyamazing.
So she took a historical view tounderstand stereotypes that
promote violence towards Blackwomen and or shape, how react to
black women who are experiencingviolence.
And she focused in on threestereotypes, which I thought
were really interesting.
So the first is that Black womenare promiscuous and are of low

(01:17:22):
moral character.
So again, this is a stereotype.
So this stereotype promotes thebelief that Black women are
responsible for being raped.
They're responsible for beingsexually assaulted.
This sort of like she asked forit mentality.
So that was the first one.
The second one, the secondstereotype was that Black women

(01:17:43):
are liars.
So, uh, they're not crediblewhen they do report that they
have been victimized.
So that, so they're not, youknow, right.
They're not credible.
They're not believed becausethey're liars.
Sorry.
Even talking about this makes mefeel queasy.
Like reading the stereotypes is,is these are awful awful

(01:18:06):
stereotypes.

Carly (01:18:07):
Y eah.

Valerie (01:18:08):
Okay.
And then the third was Blackwomen as manlike and overly
aggressive.
So basically I think the ideahere is that, um, with these,
that Black women are used toviolence, so it's not as harmful
to her or to them.
So basically it's like a toolfor taking away empathy.
And I was really struck by howtogether these stereotypes to

(01:18:29):
serve, to blame Black women fortheir own victimization and then
to go on to dehumanize theirexperiences of pain so that, you
know, generally society doesn'tneed to take it seriously.

Carly (01:18:42):
Right.

Valerie (01:18:43):
So it's just like, all of these working in concert are
dangerous and terrible and awfuland yeah.

Carly (01:18:50):
Absolutely.

Valerie (01:18:53):
So the brilliant Dr.
J acobs then goes on to discussdifferent ways that Black women
experience violence from thepolice.
So she of course gets intomurder and she discusses
killings from police officers at length.
But then she starts digging intosexual assaults and violence

(01:19:14):
from police officers.
And this is, this was reallyhard to read.
So she spotlighted a case ofDaniel Holtzclaw, who was an
Oklahoma police officer who wasconvicted in 2016 of raping 13
women on duty.
So this all happened just in asix month span i n 2014.

(01:19:35):
And apparently he targeted womenwho he thought would be
vulnerable.
And he told them that no onewould believe him because he's a
police officer.
And if we c ircle back to thestereotypes of Black women, like
it fits right in there, right.
Like black women as promiscuousand o f low moral character.
So that's why they arerape-apable in his mind.

(01:19:56):
Right.
And then Black women as liars.
So he's telling them like, well,if you go to the police, like if
you tell anyone you're not going t o be believed.

Carly (01:20:04):
Right.

Valerie (01:20:04):
Because people think you're liars.

Carly (01:20:06):
Y eah.

Valerie (01:20:07):
And so then she pepper, you know, she peppers through
all of these other examples justto really drive home like this
isn't an anomaly.
This wasn't like a, a one badapple scene with killings that
we're seeing that this is, thisis a systemic issue.

Carly (01:20:22):
Exactly.

Valerie (01:20:23):
It was really concerning to me, Carly, like
when she was ranting about theDaniel Holtzclaw case, she was
like, this got lots of attentionand really brought the issue to
light.
This was in 2016 and I'membarrassed.
I didn't know about it.
Did you?
I mean...

Carly (01:20:37):
Yeah.
You know, I, I do remember, Ithink it passed through, you
know, maybe one of my Redditnews pages, but, I, you know,
wouldn't have been able to pullthat from memory without being
reminded of it right now, butwhat's crazier to me is that,
you know, all of this, all ofhis charges happened in the six
months span in 2014.

(01:20:57):
And at that point, you know,he'd been on the force for a
little bit that like, to me, Ijust wonder, you know, how, how
deep does it run with thatperson let alone, like you're
saying, you know, it's a wholesystemic thing.
It's, this is not something thatjust happened once.
And that's why, you know, she'swriting about it.
It's like, this is, this is aproblem.
And this is what, you know, thereality is for Black women and

(01:21:20):
the legal system in general inthis country.

Valerie (01:21:24):
Yeah.
It feels to me like we'regetting a little bit of light on
this issue with Breonna Taylor.
Um, but it just feels like aniceberg to me.
Like, it feels like these coupleof killings at the top or like
these, these sexual assaults andthese rapes that we know of
about.

Carly (01:21:42):
R ight.

Valerie (01:21:43):
A re floating above the water, but it just feels like
what's under the water.
It could sink the Titanic.
I mean.

Carly (01:21:51):
Y eah.

Valerie (01:21:51):
It feels really large.

Carly (01:21:53):
Right.

Valerie (01:21:55):
You know, and I think that the only, the only bright
spot in this maybe for me is, isthat we have Jelani on our team.
Right?

Carly (01:22:04):
Absolutely.

Valerie (01:22:04):
We have...Yeah.
People like Jelani, who isfocused on these issues.
Who is, thinking deeply aboutthe criminal justice system,
about its intersections withracism and stigma and issues of
health equity.
And you know, that he has otherscholars as well, who are doing

(01:22:26):
this type of research, includingthis brilliant Michelle Jacobs,
that we were really excited to,you know, read more of her work.
So, so hopefully, you know,science is like always the
solution to me.
So I'm hopeful that with Jelanion our team and with some of
these others scientists on ourteam, that we can make some

(01:22:46):
progress in this direction andlight up the icebergs so that we
can all see how big it reallyis.

Carly (01:22:51):
Me too.
Yeah.

Valerie (01:22:55):
Thanks to the Stigma and Health Inequities Lab at the
University of Delaware,including McKenzie Sarnak and
Saray Lopez.
This episode was researched byKristina Holsapple and Alyssa
Leung.
And the episode was edited byKristina Holsapple.

Carly (01:23:10):
Thanks to City Girl for the music f or the podcast.
And you guys can follow us onInstagram a t Sex Drugs Science
for updates, or if you have anycomments, questions, or
concerns, you can email us [e-mail].
That's sex drugs, the letter Nscience at gmail.com.

Valerie (01:23:29):
Thanks to all of you for listening.