June 2, 2021 • 45 mins
Liz Richards is Executive Director of the Delaware Cares Coalition for Paid Leave, which is a coalition of health, labor, faith, business, family and community organizations and advocates committed to passing Paid Family and Medical Leave in Delaware. Liz talks with Valerie and Carly about her work advocating for paid leave in Delaware, the research evidence supporting paid leave, and how scientists can support policy change surrounding paid leave.
Learn more about Delaware Cares here: https://www.decares.org/
Read Delaware Academy of Medicine / Delaware Public Health Association’s policy statement regarding Paid Family Medical Leave here: https://delamed.org/paid-family-medical-leave-statement/
Follow Delaware Cares on Twitter: @delawarecares
Follow Liz Richards on Twitter: @lizrr
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie Earnshaw (00:09):
Okay.
I'm Valerie Earnshaw.
Carly Hill (00:13):
I'm Carly hill.
Valerie Earnshaw (00:14):
and this is sex drugs, and science welcome
everybody to season two.
Carly Hill (00:20):
Good to be back!
Valerie Earnshaw (00:23):
one of our goals for this season is to
connect more with people who areapplying or using science in
some way outside of academia.
So, you know, like out there inthe real world.
This season, you're going tohear from scientists, who are
studying policies related to sexand drugs, and also advocates
and communities for helping tochange policies.
But then you're also going toget our regular programming
(00:44):
around sex and drugs science.
Carly Hill (00:46):
Yes.
So we're kicking off the seasonwith a conversation with Liz
Richards.
Liz is the executive director ofDelaware Cares, which is an
organization advocating for paidfamily and medical leave in
Delaware, which is our homestate.
So we thought Liz would be agreat person to talk to about
using science, to advocate forpolicy change and start
brainstorming about howscientists can support the
(01:08):
efforts of people trying to makechange.
Valerie Earnshaw (01:10):
So we taped this on April 30th and on May
5th, one of our local senators,Senator Sarah McBrideintroduced
the healthy Delaware familiesact to create a statewide paid
family and medical leaveinsurance program.
So, the bill is currently withcommittee.
So as Liz advises all of us onthe podcast, if you're a
(01:30):
resident of Delaware, and if yousupport this policy, now is a
good time for you to contactyour representative and let them
know that you support this veryscience-supported very
evidence-based bill.
So we hope that you enjoy thisepisode with Liz Richards.
(01:51):
Liz Richards.
Welcome to the show.
Liz Richards (01:54):
Thank you so much, Valerie.
It's great to be here.
Valerie Earnshaw (01:58):
So we are looking so forward to having a
conversation with you about theintersections of science and
policy and advocacy, but beforewe do our deep dive into that,
I'd love to get to know a littlebit more about your background.
You are a native Delawarean andyou grew up in Delaware and you
and Carly met each other in highschool at the famed Cab
(02:19):
Calloway, which is an arts highschool in Wilmington, right?
Carly Hill (02:22):
Cab Callaway school of the arts!
Valerie Earnshaw (02:26):
Cab Callaway School of the Arts, All right.
So I'm going to roll in with myfirst, like very hard hitting
question of the day, which iswhat was Carly like in high
school?
Liz Richards (02:34):
Oh, well, I would say that Carly's defining
feature then, which is Carly'sdefining feature now is her
smile that.
Valerie Earnshaw (02:42):
Aww!
Liz Richards (02:42):
The best smiles.
And I feel like I just rememberCarly always laughing at
something and always being acheerful light in the room.
Really!
Carly Hill (02:53):
Isn't that so lovely slash also much lovelier than I
think my high school selfdeserved, but I'll,
Liz Richards (03:01):
Well, I have to tell the podcast people because
I'm not sure they can see yoursmile and..
and it's, it's a good one.
And Cab Callaway was a bit of agoofy school in many ways and we
loved it for that reason.
And a big group of misfits.
Would you say Carly?
Carly Hill (03:15):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's just, uh, an amalgam ofpeople of all walks of life with
all interests and just like acool place to be.
I think a really uniqueexperience.
Liz Richards (03:27):
It was, I miss it.
I mean, I'm from Delaware, grewup here, have lived other places
and so happy to be back here forgood and c abs just down the
street from me now.
So I don't stray far away.
Carly Hill (03:41):
Well, I can say that in high school, Liz was the
absolute boss.
Not at all surprised to hearthat you're the executive
director of this coalition.
Delaware Cares.
Liz was always like in mocktrial and like debate and like,
just like I knew somehow thatLiz would be doing big things
like this.
Liz Richards (04:04):
That is very generous of you.
I feel like I was probablyoverextending myself in too many
clubs at the time.
That's all right.
Valerie Earnshaw (04:14):
Okay.
These answers are great.
I honestly thought you weregoing to say Carly's most
memorable traits were likeriding around on a unicycle
while play a ukulele becausethat's how I envisioned her
based on these stories fromthese time periods.
But.
Carly Hill (04:28):
I'm not saying it didn't happen.
Liz Richards (04:31):
Yeah.
She fit right in with that.
Yeah.
Valerie Earnshaw (04:33):
That was the vibe, right?
Yeah.
And then, yeah, I'm not at allsurprised to hear that you were
a boss, as Carly said, becausethe career trajectory today, it
really is quite boss-like Sofrom what Carly tells us, after
you graduated from Cab Calloway,you went on to American
University and you studiedpolitical science?
Liz Richards (04:52):
I did.
Yes.
And fun fact for some folks whomay or may not know the sponsor
of our bill, who w as a Delawarel egislator, Senator S arah
McBride.
We both went to AmericanUniversity and S arah was the
student body president.
I was the student body vicepresident.
So just kind of continued theCab Calloway.
I would say that I turned, weturned American university into
(05:15):
like a continuation of cabCalloway school for the arts.
So still Delaware pride all theway through.
Carly Hill (05:20):
Yes.
Valerie Earnshaw (05:21):
I love this.
Let's put a quick plug for SarahMcBride's book on my bookshelf.
Not here.
Carly Hill (05:28):
Also.
This might be the third orfourth time we've plugged this
book on the podcast.
We're going to have to...
Valerie Earnshaw (05:34):
We Sent a copy of the book to Carmen Loggy our
first guest.
Yeah.
I had just finished reading it,but anyway, she talks about her
experiences at Americanuniversity and It's like, it's
lovely.
It's where the book starts.
So you, You've known each othersince high school through
university and now you'reworking together.
Okay.
So that's a great background.
Liz Richards (05:52):
Yeah.
I assure your listeners herethat there were many years in
between where we were not goingto the same school or doing the
same thing, but it's kind ofcool that coming back to
Delaware and especially thistime doing this and working to
make changes and make people'slives better, it's been really
cool and really fun.
Valerie Earnshaw (06:12):
So it sounds like then there was a break.
So what were you doing betweenAmerican university?
And it sounds like coming backto Delaware, what was the
meantime?
Liz Richards (06:20):
I was working on, uh, political campaigns across
the country.
Valerie Earnshaw (06:24):
Oh, okay.
Liz Richards (06:25):
Yes.
Initially.
I mean a brief history of myresume, I guess immediately
after college, I worked at thedemocratic senatorial campaign
committee that was in 2012.
And so those were Senate racesacross the country.
But then I went on races in NewJersey and Wisconsin worked on
some governor's races and thengot into political organizing
(06:46):
and media in particular.
So making TV ads for progressivecandidates and causes, and then
in between all that, it's kindof hopping around.
The thing that really got me,where I am here is that in 2017,
I had managed a similarcoalition effort in Maryland to
pass a paid sick days law.
And when I came back to Delawarewas thinking, you know, I know
(07:09):
that paid family medical leaveis something that needs to
happen now.
And something that had kind ofbeen on the radar.
So that experience reallycatapulted my interest in paid
leave policies and got methinking and talking to people
about how it really impactsevery level of people's lives.
So there's been a lot of twistsand turns in between, but yeah,
it's good to be back inDelaware.
(07:30):
And I was saying before thepodcast started, I I've been in
Delaware for a while since I'vecome back, but just move
recently.
And I think everyone right nowwith the pandemic is kind of
doing a million things at onetime and power to everyone out
there because it's a lot.
Valerie Earnshaw (07:45):
Absolutely.
Well, Delaware is a great placeto be during that pandemic.
I'm going to make a plug for it.
I mean, between our parks andour beaches and good takeout,
food everywhere.
It's been a, it's been a solidplace to come home to.
Liz Richards (07:57):
Oh, most definitely.
What are your favorite takeoutplaces I'm gonna put you on the
spot.
Valerie Earnshaw (08:01):
All right.
So up the road from me, we'vegot daily vege, just like a
vegan place.
Liz Richards (08:07):
Is that on market street?
Valerie Earnshaw (08:09):
So there's one on Main street in Newark and
then up here in pike Creek.
So that's been one of my go-tospots during the pandemic.
Yeah.
How about you all?
What's your go-to pandemic food?
Carly Hill (08:24):
I got to go with my gyro place, my falafel gyro
place.
It's the Halaal Kebab house.
And it's behind where the BurgerKing used to be on Delaware
avenue and South Chapel.
There used to be a burger kingsomewhere abouts there
catty-corner to the seven 11.
It was once a little Caesar's,but is now the world's greatest
(08:45):
falafel kebab gyro place ever.
Liz Richards (08:49):
That's a glow up right there.
It is.
I'm going to go old school.
Like I've been getting a lot ofCapriotti's a lot of Italian and
subs hoagies really, but yeah, Imean, I've been going back to my
roots, a lot of potato chips,I've been consuming a lot of
potato chips over this pandemic,
Carly Hill (09:11):
It's a constant for me, like my whole life, but
definitely upped my chip game inthe pandemic.
Yeah.
Valerie Earnshaw (09:16):
We are really off track here listeners, but I
just want to say, I discoveredall dressed chips during the
pandemic, which is like acombination of barbecue and like
sea salt and vinegar orsomething.
And I didn't, you know, I'm nota super chip person, the husband
character slash roommate is achip person.
But I mean, if one of thosethings are open, it's going to
(09:37):
be empty.
Like I can relate to this chippandemic issue.
Liz Richards (09:42):
Did the flavors clash?
Valerie Earnshaw (09:44):
No.
They meld beautifully.
It's amazing.
I highly recommend it.
I think it's Canada's number oneship really in the bag says,
Liz Richards (09:55):
well, I'm in,
Carly Hill (09:57):
we'll have to have the undergrads do research on
that.
Yes.
To confirm.
Valerie Earnshaw (10:02):
Yeah.
Well, okay.
So I'm going to take us on a, ona hard right turn from all dress
chips back to Delaware cares.
And then you, could you tell usa little bit about what the
current state of paid leave isin our state for like for family
and medical related reasons?
What, where do we stand inDelaware currently?
Liz Richards (10:21):
Sure! When people hear paid leave, they think of a
lot of different things becauseit doesn't necessarily mean one
thing.
Some people think of it.
If they talk about paid leave,they may be thinking, oh, I can
get a sick day.
I get paid a sick day.
Some people think, oh, that's myPTO or whatever.
Paid family and medical leavethough.
I think that most closelyrelates to FMLA.
(10:42):
Have you, either of you heard ofFMLA?
So that's the thing I think mostpeople are like, oh, I'm
familiar with FMLA don't we haveFMLA.
Yes.
It's a federal law that ensuresthat a worker won't get fired.
If they have to take an extendedperiod of leave, say to have a
child, or if they are seriouslyill, they need to be out for a
while.
It means that they won't losetheir job.
(11:02):
However, in Delaware, nearly 60%of Delawareans are not even
covered under FMLA and mind you,that is unpaid leave.
So that would mean you're outfor weeks and weeks and weeks at
a time, whether it's becauseyou're seriously, ill have a
child that you just gave birthto or welcomed into your family.
And that's unpaid.
(11:22):
So even among the 60% who don'thave access to it among the 40%
who do so many, just can'tafford to take several weeks off
when they're not getting apaycheck.
There are have been nine statesin the district of Columbia that
have passed laws similar to theone that we have developed here
in Delaware and are working topass that would ensure that all
(11:45):
workers have access to some sortof paid family and medical
leave.
So currently Delaware does nothave this.
It does for state, they passed alaw a few years back ensuring
that state workers can haveparental leave.
And that that would cover sothat if they have a child, they
can take paid parental leave,but that does not apply to
(12:05):
people across the board.
It does not include leave for aserious illness.
And it also doesn't includecaregiver leave, which has been
incredibly important during thepandemic.
There are so many people outthere who are acting as
caregivers to their familymember who is seriously ill or
is going through a sickness.
And I think we've seen a lot ofthat during COVID where people
will have to figure it outwithin their own household.
(12:27):
And it's a really big deal.
If you are acting basically as afull-time caregiver to somebody
AND trying to work at the sametime, trying to get, get a
paycheck.
So basically these laws thathave been passed in nine other
states and DC have created astate insurance fund to ensure
that everyone has access to paidfamily and medical leave when
(12:47):
they need it.
Delaware does not have thatright now.
And as a result, there's a lotof people out there that are in
a really tough spot, especiallyduring the pandemic.
And that's what we're trying todo.
Valerie Earnshaw (12:56):
Yeah, that's phenomenal.
I mean, I was digging around alittle bit on the research on
what are the benefits of paidleave.
And I mean, it's just such aslam dunk, you know, so I mean,
as you all cite in so many ofyour reports paid maternity and
paternity leave, paid parentalleave is associated with all
(13:16):
sorts of better outcomes forparents and babies, right?
Like longer breastfeeding,reduced morbidity and mortality,
even higher vaccination ratesfor babies I saw and then better
maternal health.
It looks to me like some of thebest research is on paid
parental leave.
But then also I saw some statson people without paid sick
leave are like three times morelikely to forego medical
(13:40):
treatment, which to me isbananas three times more likely
not to go get healthcare whenyou need that healthcare,
because you don't have thatleave.
And then they're like loved onesare one and a half or 1.6 times
less likely to get care as wellor more likely to forego care.
(14:00):
I guess that's the way that itwas phrased.
So like not only is the personless likely to get care of their
loved ones are less likely toget care because they can't
support them.
So if you just think throughlike the accumulating impacts on
health over a lifetime for likenot being able to get the care
when you need it, when you'resick, I mean, that's just
astronomical.
It's such a big issue.
Liz Richards (14:21):
That's exactly right.
And I think you hit the nail onthe head when you said one
problem compounds, the othercompounds, it's just stacking on
top of each other, all thesedifferent stresses.
You know, when someone is facingan illness, that's a big deal
and they should be focusing ontheir health.
They should be focusing ongetting better.
They shouldn't be focusing onhow am I going to pay my
electric bill this month?
(14:41):
Where am I going to like put mykids in school?
Like, how am I going to dealwith this?
And that's really what'shappening right now.
And we are benefiting from theresearch that's been done.
Other states that have passedthese k inds of laws, where it
does show, wow.
The d ifference i s reallystark.
And I think one other statisticthat I thought was particularly
interesting is that inCalifornia, they saw nursing
(15:02):
home usage go down becausebasically family caregivers can
have the time to care for aloved one.
If they need to transition to anew care system or anything like
that.
And it's something that,especially during the pandemic,
this has always been a need.
But during the pandemic, thepeople that I talked to have
just said, we really got to getthis done.
If it's not now, when is it?
(15:22):
And the data is there.
We actually, yesterday or twodays ago now the Delaware
academy of medicine and theDelaware public health
association put out a verystrong statement, supporting
paid family medical leave.
And that's just really what thedata has shown.
That it's something that helpsfamilies and keeps people
healthier.
Valerie Earnshaw (15:39):
I saw that come out.
I was like, this is tremendous.
This is a really big deal.
Congratulations.
Cause I'm sure that the advocacywork of your organization
probably had something to dowith that.
So it's phenomenal.
And I mean, so not only are ourlocal Delaware organizations on
board with this, also I thinkthe American Public Health
Association supports it.
The American Academy ofPediatrics supports it.
(16:01):
To me, you're the expert, but itlooks like the nuances of what
they recommend differ a littlebit between the different
statements, but across the boardhealth organizations are like,
they're like (16:11):
this is something that's important to have.
Liz Richards (16:14):
Absolutely.
And I think that we're startingto see people make those
connections between health andthe economy and our broader
social systems, becausecurrently I'm actually, while
I'm doing this, I'm getting mymaster's in public health.
And one of the things they talkabout a lot is the social
determinants of health, which isbasically in a nutshell is, you
know, you could be taking a tonof medications, you could be
(16:36):
going to the doctor every day,but if these structural
limitations are in your way,that are getting in the way of
your health, that is the stuffthat makes the biggest
difference.
So it's really, I think a signthat the public health community
is moving in that direction.
And they're really recognizingthat if we want to improve
people's outcomes and quality oflife, we have to address the
root causes of health problems.
(16:58):
And so that's really, I thinkwhere a lot of that's coming
from and we've had great leaderslike the Delaware Nurses
Association that was an earliersupporter in our coalition.
And the people that have reallybeen on the front lines are the
ones who really see the need forthis and want to get it done.
Valerie Earnshaw (17:14):
So Liz you've mentioned this a few different
times about how, you know,there's increased attention to
this right now during thecurrent pandemic.
So can you talk about how thepandemic has sort of shown a
light on this issue?
What are some of the things thatpeople have been experiencing
that would make their liveseasier if they had the ability
to take a longer leave or aleave at all?
Liz Richards (17:36):
Right.
Well, president Biden touched onthis last night in his state of
the union, but across the nationtwo and a half million women
have left the workforce.
And that's in large part becausethey have not been able to
square the demands of work andfamily, and a lot of that's
because there's things going onwith childcare.
(17:56):
But a lot of it too is a familymember who is sick and they need
to act as the primary caregiver.
We know that women are morelikely to be primary caregivers
in households.
And we also know that during thepandemic that has really, really
been exacerbated.
So that is where a lot of theurgency is coming from.
But it's also happened before,before I've talked to a lot of
(18:16):
women who, when they have a kidand they don't have paid family
and medical leave and they havea child and they have to be out
for an extended period of timeanyway, they're not going to
have any pay and no guarantee ofgetting their job back.
A lot of them just say, you knowwhat, I'm just leaving all
together.
And a lot of them would comeback if they had that option and
studies have shown that workersare more likely to come back
(18:39):
after taking leave if they haveit, if they have it paid.
So that's one thing.
And frankly, just the pandemichas highlighted the injustice of
the system.
There are a lot of healthcareworkers out there who are on the
front lines, who do not haveaccess to paid family medical
leave.
They are the ones that aretaking care of people in those
situations, but there's a lot ofCNAs and people that are working
(19:03):
in the healthcare system thatdon't have those benefits
themselves.
So I think that we owe it tothem.
We owe it to our communities tomake sure that everyone has the
ability to care for themselvesand their family when illness
strikes.
So we're really focusing onthat.
And frankly, this is an economicissue of making sure we can keep
people in the workforce, keeppeople going, because otherwise
(19:25):
we are going to continue to seethese trends where we lose women
in the workforce.
And we see people struggling tomake ends meet.
Valerie Earnshaw (19:34):
As I'm listening to you.
Like I'm typically like a glasshalf full optimist kind of
person, especially I think as astigma researcher, you have to
be because like, you know, ifyou thought that no change was
ever possible, it could be avery tough thing to research,
but as someone who's like notreally involved with political
(19:54):
systems, I mean, I vote, I do,you know, all of the.
Carly Hill (19:58):
your civic duties.
Valerie Earnshaw (20:00):
Civic duties,Yeah.
But beyond that, I think,especially, I don't know if it's
the case that this is an issuemore so in our current political
climate or our recent politicalclimate, I think it's really
easy for people to feeldisillusioned and that stuff
doesn't get done.
And then also when I layer intothis, like the gender issues,
(20:20):
and also after this to ask youabout some of the racial
inequity issues...
I feel like when there areissues that disproportionately
affect women and people ofcolor, it's like harder to get
traction on making change.
So how are you feeling in termsof optimism right now?
I mean, do you feel like there'spurchase?
That maybe there's anopportunity to make leave or to
(20:44):
make change?
It's great that some of ourpublic health association and
medical associations have thisweek been like, we need this,
but we've had our nationalassociations calling for this
for like 15 years.
So how optimistic are youfeeling as someone who's like in
the trenches of the issue?
Liz Richards (21:00):
I'm feeling more optimistic than ever that a
policy like this could happenand I'll tell you why.
Valerie Earnshaw (21:08):
Yes.
Liz Richards (21:09):
First of all, we have a legislature that I think
certainly in the Senateleadership who released a great
op-ed.
I think it was last week sayingthat this is the single most
impactful policy we could passin the wake of COVID-19.
I think that the Senate wants toget this done and I'm hopeful
that the house will as well.
And I think that the pandemichas kind of reset the political
(21:32):
agenda to a certain extent,certainly for the minds of
families who really are going tobe voting on these issues, I
truly believe.
And when you talk to them, theseare the things they're most
concerned about.
But I would also say that Iagree with your point, that care
has been undervalued for a long,long time.
Especially when we talk about onthe national level, they are,
(21:54):
have been doing, pushing theline, that care is
infrastructure.
I n a new infrastructure packagethat they've been pushing.
They've been reiterating thatit's not just about building
roads and bridges.
It's about making sure thatfamilies at home can continue
working, that t hey, we have theinfrastructure at home to have a
workforce that can be healthyand keep going.
So I think that in the comingdays and weeks, we're going to
(22:17):
see a lot more coming from ourlawmakers, which is really
exciting because it's reallyjust something t hat their
voters are demanding and they listened to their constituents.
And that's what we've beenfocusing on.
We've also been engaging,unusual communities that you may
not think would be on board.
We've been engaging child abuseprevention communities.
(22:38):
We've been engaging domesticviolence prevention communities.
And I think everyone is comingtogether because it really just
does touch every part of oureconomy and our workforce a nd
our life.
So we are building a broadcoalition and showing that t
here's a real desire to get thisdone now.
Valerie Earnshaw (22:54):
I think Carly, you were remarking on what a
broad coalition this was.
Did you have any,
Carly Hill (23:01):
Right Yeah, that was actually was one of my questions
that I was just curious for myown knowledge really is just,
what does it look like when allthese stakeholders come together
and sort of like, you know,especially the faith-based,
that's an interesting thing thatwe haven't really talked about
on the show being, you know,sex, drugs and science religion
doesn't come up often.
So can you tell me a little bitmore about that?
Liz Richards (23:21):
Yeah.
If you think about when someonewould need paid family medical
leave, we're talking abouthaving a child, maybe it's end
of life.
Maybe it's someone who's reallysick.
A lot of those situations aresituations where people turn to
their faith community.
They call up their pastor, theycall up their priest.
They talk to folks.
And I think that that's kind ofthe stop of where a lot of this
(23:43):
community help comes from.
We did a segment with RabbiRobinson over from down in
Wilmington, and he was wonderfuland talked about how these
connections really overlap.
Communities of faith were alsoinvolved in the paid sick days
effort when I was doing that inMaryland.
And I think that that is reallywhere a lot of that comes from.
And when you talk to people andkind of explain the issue they
(24:04):
immediately get in.
And I think that there's a lotof people out there who, you
know, me as a person of faith,believe that this is something
that ties in with their beliefsand ties in with what they want
to get done.
And I think that it's beenreally inspiring to see everyone
coming together for this.
And in terms of like the, thenuts and bolts of how it
happens.
I mean, it's really like a fieldcampaign.
(24:25):
Getting back to my campaigntraining.
It's you talk to people, youexplain what it is.
You, you make your pitch, youhear what they have to say.
You hear what they think aboutit and why it would matter to
them.
It's not like a, oh, okay, letme just send out a notice.
And everyone get on board.
It is really, it takes a lot ofwork and it takes a lot of
conversations.
And then, you know, with eachnew group that comes on, we
(24:46):
basically talk together weekly,talk about our plans, take
actions, get things happening,because I think we are all
focused on the same thing, Itmakes it a lot easier.
There are some coalitions thatare pretty broad and they work
on a number of things-- Becausewe are kind of laser focused on
paid family medical leave.
I think everyone has somethingdifferent to contribute.
(25:07):
So it's been really, reallygreat and exciting and we're
going forward every day and newthings are happening.
So it's really cool.
Carly Hill (25:15):
That's awesome.
So how do, how can, how canscientists sort of help with
these grassroots efforts withthese sort of, like you said,
knocking around, going back toyour campaign roots, you know,
how can we as scientists helpyou and others like you?
Liz Richards (25:30):
Well, one thing that if any Delaware scientists
are listening to this that wouldlike to contribute their
expertise and skills.
One of the best things to do isto contact your legislator and
you can do that a number of waysyou can reach out directly, but
there's also opportunities totestify.
And that could be throughwritten testimony and in public
(25:50):
in-person testimony.
I mean, right now it's virtual,but when this bill does go
through, there is an opportunityto basically for every, every
Delawarean, but I thinkparticularly for scientists who
focus on the broad implicationsthat have an effect on everybody
to kind of share your knowledgeand share why you think this is
important.
So that's one thing I think theother thing that you can do is
(26:13):
do research on this, frankly, Iknow Valerie, you referenced a
number of studies that we workwith that research every day we
are using it.
And all these policies arereally rooted in that research
and science.
And I think that it could bemore expansive, frankly.
I think there's a lot of placesto investigate that haven't been
done yet.
And so continuing to explore theimpact on families, continuing
(26:37):
to have a better understandingon how this affects health
outcomes, I think is reallyhelpful as we develop these
policies and make the case forwhy the specifics of it are so
important too, because as ageneral policy, it's important.
But when we get into the nittygritty of, you know, what should
the wage replacement level beand why does that matter?
And why is it important thatevery worker is covered, not
(27:00):
just workers that work at abusiness, 50 employees and more.
I think all of those thingsreally help us have a full
understanding of how thisimpacts families and improves
health.
Valerie Earnshaw (27:10):
So this is super helpful.
I mean, this is like, this isreally great to hear as someone
who does science that hopefully,maybe sometimes it has
implications for changes thatpeople are actually trying to
make.
So, so one thing that I'm reallyinterested in, what you're
saying is that the research isout there, you're using the
research.
First, just a small question.
(27:31):
Like where do you find theresearch?
Like, are you on, I go to Googlescholar, like, do you go to, do
you find the peer reviewedpapers?
Or do you read summaries?
Like where do you access theresearch?
Liz Richards (27:41):
Well, I read summaries most of the time,
there's different organizationsat the national level that have
really been helping coordinatethis.
And frankly we coordinatetogether and they kind of have
led the research and coordinatedwith different groups and really
dug in.
So there are experts on thenational level who really know
the ins and outs and are franklythe ones that are helping really
(28:02):
write the laws.
Concurrently while we arewriting the state law, there's a
federal proposal that's on thetable.
It hasn't been introduced yet,but there's really a whole paid
leave network, essentially ofpeople that have been working on
this issue for decades now,longer than I have for sure, and
have been really hammering awayat it.
I mean, a lot of the studiesthat I've read and referenced to
(28:24):
go back to the nineties or theeighties, some of them, you
know, especially when you'retalking about maternity leave
and of course we are focused onparental leave because we know
that it's important for mothersand fathers to have access to
paid leave when a child is born,frankly, it also takes
experimentation.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
The more states that do this, the more research that
can be done on how the policiesactually have an effect.
Because right now it's a lot oflike, okay, well, this business
did this and we're doing a pilotstudy or something like that.
But as we pass more policies,we'll have a more full
understanding of how we can bothpass the laws, but then improve
them over time and make thingscontinue to make things workable
(29:03):
and better for families.
Valerie Earnshaw (29:05):
So to me, it sounds like one thing that could
be useful for scientists doingwork in any area is to make sure
or think about ways that ifyou're doing research that's
relevant to an organization andwhat they're doing out there in
the world, that maybe you shouldtry to make sure it crosses
their desk.
You know, like either byconnecting with whoever that
(29:28):
leader in the field is in yourfield, that you know, is doing
policy relevant work or who isworking in these groups, like
get it to them so they caninclude it in the reports or
reach out to the Liz's of theworld and just say, Hey, I live
down the street from you, I'm atthe university of Delaware.
I did this thing.
Maybe it's helpful for you.
I don't know.
But for us just publishing inour journal is not enough.
(29:51):
Usually it might, you know,maybe, but we need to be
thinking about how can we get itinto these, like into these
summaries?
Or how can we, how can we becommunicating directly with the
groups that we think could useit?
And maybe we need to be morethoughtful.
I think scientists, aren'talways great about reaching out
and being like,"Hey Liz, youknow, I did this little study,
(30:12):
maybe it's useful for you".
Carly Hill (30:13):
Or like you said to Liz, it's not like you just like
send out a bulletin to everyonein the state.
And you're like, cool, we're acoalition now everybody's on
board.
Like you have to, you know, so,and that's kind of what we as
scientists, I think that we'reguilty of doing is saying like,
okay, we did that paper.
It's out there, it's yourresponsibility to go look at it
and do whatever you want withit.
Like, my, my work is done.
I think that's kind of the linkwe're missing.
There is like, how do we get itto, to the Liz's?
(30:36):
And like, do we, you know, maybeit is as simple as like just
going out and doing it yourself,you know, sending the email with
the paper attached or doingwhatever and sort of getting
better at that as a sciencecommunity.
Liz Richards (30:48):
Absolutely.
I mean, I, it would be thrillingto me if that would happen.
And I know it does.
Like, I will also say that, youknow, as I'm taking public
health classes, like I'mlearning how to read scientific
papers, but the people in theadvocacy world, which is where I
kind of sit, I dabble in thepolicy side.
I mean, it's, it's allinterconnected, but, but there
(31:08):
are people that specialize incertain parts of it and the
advocacy folks, we all rely oneach other.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
There's no use in research that is never acted on.
So that's the, what we're doing.
And in my public health, I'mgoing to, I'm going to Johns
Hopkins for public health rightnow...
Valerie Earnshaw (31:25):
Oh is that, you know, you decided to like
really settle on your PublicHealth education.
You're like"oh just go to thisschool.
I t's like close by.."
Liz Richards (31:34):
Online! It's all online.
So it's fun.
Valerie Earnsha (31:37):
Congratulations That's tremendous.
Carly Hill (31:39):
yeah!
Valerie Earnshaw (31:39):
Public health degree at Hopkins.
That's l ike really phenomenal.
So.
Liz Richards (31:44):
Thank you! I appreciate it.
It's been really interesting andreally cool to do while this is
all going on.
But I guess what I was justthinking was that I'm always the
one that's boiling it down,trying to make it, I'm trying to
be the in-between between theresearchers and the people,
because we really, this is aboutcommunicating to a very large
(32:04):
number of people.
And so a lot of my fellowstudents at Hopkins are doctors,
or they are doing research orthey are doing these things.
And I always feel like theperson in the room knows the
talking point version of a lotof things, but I'm delving more
into the other side and viceversa.
So I felt like a fish out ofwater, but more and more, I
think it's important to, to knowthe science behind it and to
(32:27):
understand why those studies aredone the way they are.
But also understanding from myperspective, like what I live
and breathe is the translatingand the advocacy to make sure
that it's accessible toeverybody and to make sure that
we can actually get things done.
So that's what I'm working on.
Valerie Earnshaw (32:44):
Couldn't love it more.
I mean, I think it's an allhands on deck, you know, like we
need the...
So for...
The reason you, I think, bringup doctors in particular is that
a lot of people who are MDs goback after they get their MD to
get an MPH, a Master's in PublicHealth, which I don't know, it's
like a glutton for punishmenttype.
(33:05):
So that's why, especially at aplace like Hopkins, which is one
of our top schools, publichealth in the nation, you're
going to see a lot of likedoctors in your Master's
classes, but Liz, the otherthing that I'm like reflecting
one as you're talking is that assomeone who's working in the
advocacy field, you're seeinggaps, you're seeing gaps in the
(33:25):
research that if you had answersto certain questions, you'd be
able to do better advocacy.
So, can we hover for a moment onthat and brainstorm together
about if you're seeing gaps?
How can you tell researchersabout those?
You know, how can we buildconnections?
Is it that we need to getresearchers at the table to be
(33:46):
learning about that together?
I think in general, a lot ofscientists are like, here is my
program of research.
I'm doing this study.
Here's what interests me.
But a lot of people areinterested in doing science that
is helpful for communities.
So, so from your perspective, assomeone who's straddling this,
like, you know, taking coursesand your MPH and learning about
(34:08):
this process, but also someonewho looks around and sees gaps
in the research, what are yourthoughts on how we can engage
scientists to address some ofthese things that aren't being
currently addressed?
Liz Richards (34:21):
It's an interesting question, because I
think all it takes is outreach.
Sometimes it's figuring out whothat person is and you have no
idea.
Like, I'm sure there's plenty ofpeople out there right now in
Delaware who may be interestedor researching around these
areas who just have never heardof the Delaware Cares Coalition
before.
And that's largely because weonly started this year, we're
(34:43):
brand new, but it goes bothways.
And I think that the willingnessto do that kind of outreach, the
willingness to tailor yourresearch to something that other
people are working on.
And frankly just like continuingto work on something that's
already begun rather than goingoff in a different direction on
something completely new.
Although that's great too,frankly, but I'm every day
(35:06):
connecting with new people andit's a lot.
And I think that it's reallyjust a matter of asking.
It's kind of a terrible answer,
Valerie Earnshaw (35:12):
I t hink t hat's a great answer,and I
think, I mean, that was sort ofan unfair question b ecause I'm
asking the only n on-scientiston the call to tell me.
Liz Richards (35:22):
It's funny.
I asked my cousin this questionthough, c ause she is a r
esearcher.
She happened to also get herMBA, but she's getting her
doctorate in public health inCalifornia.
And I asked her a similarquestion.
I'm like, okay, so you do athesis, you write it and where
does it go?
I have no idea.
And she's like, oh, that's thedistribution phase.
(35:42):
And I'm like, okay, what isthat?
U m, because I've asked myselfthe same question, many times
there are specific questions anddata points that I have
wondered.
And I've asked like some of thenational experts that they have
that data point and they'relike, no, we don't.
And it's really like a resourceallocation question for, I think
a lot of things.
I mean, frankly research andscience is not always cheap.
(36:05):
And I think it's a matter ofprioritizing the questions you
want to answer in many cases.
But I think that if you havethat and there's the willingness
and the people that want to doit, it's really just a matter of
connecting them.
And maybe there's more things wecan be doing to do that because
I don't know if a current like,system for it.
Do you?
Valerie Earnshaw (36:23):
So at some universities there are, and
university of Delaware hassomething like this, like
community engagement groups.
And the idea is that communityfolks who have questions or want
to learn about something can goto this like Center and then the
Center will engage people at theUniversity and like vice versa.
Like if you're a universityperson, you can go to the center
(36:45):
and say, I'm doing research inpaid leave and I want to, and
then ideally that person wouldsort of like go find Liz, and
then they would be a matchmaker.
But in, you know, in realitythough, for me as a scientist,
living in Delaware, I have triedto just like show up at groups.
So I show up to the Delaware HIVPlanning Council.
(37:08):
I mean, I've had some conflictswith the meetings, but I try to
sit on working groups.
And I also show up for thechanging perceptions work group
of our like Behavioral HealthConsortium, which is really
focused on like the substanceuse epidemic in Delaware.
We're like the second state withthe highest rates of opioid
(37:29):
overdose deaths.
So I try to just show up tothose, but I also have to say
that I'm more able to do thatnow as like, as a tenured person
who has a bit more flexibilityin my time, although I did do it
pre tenure, but anyway, I'mjust, I'm sensitive to the fact
that people have a lot going onand it's sometimes showing up to
(37:50):
a lot of meetings where you'renot always getting research
done, but you're learning andyou're connecting that, that
takes time.
But I also just like, love it.
I love like learning aboutwhat's going on in the state and
you know, I see, like, researchideas everywhere.
So yeah,
Liz Richards (38:08):
I think that making connections is the
coolest part.
And I will say that I'll tellyou one of the most interesting
intersectional questions thatcame up recently.
There's someone in our coalitionwho is in the coalition in a
different capacity, but theywork a lot on gun violence
prevention.
And they said, if we're notgoing to protect people from gun
(38:29):
violence, we need to make surethey can take paid leave when
they get shot.
Wow.
That was like, whoa.
U h, and she said that thepeople that are being most
impacted by gun violence arealso the ones who are not likely
to have paid family medicalleave.
And she's met people who, youknow, a family member gets shot
(38:49):
and someone is taking unpaidtime to go and care for them or
to see them in the hospital.
And I think that that has beenone of the more interesting
things of this, those kinds ofaha moments when you're like,
wow, I wouldn't have made thatconnection myself.
And I think I only did becauseshe brought it up and it made a
lot of sense.
I'm glad that you're doing thatbecause the more we talked to
(39:09):
each other about those kinds ofthings, the more we can really
connect the dots,
Valerie Earnshaw (39:14):
What a smart observation.
I mean, Delaware is, yeah.
Wilmington has high, high, highrates of gun violence,
especially towards youth.
Like my husband works, in a highschool in Delaware and his
students have experienced gunviolence.
They witnessed gun violence.
Their families are affected bygun violence.
So, wow.
That really, that really is agreat, I mean, that's a sad and
(39:37):
important observation.
Liz Richards (39:38):
But it also shows the to make it on the positive
side, it shows the breadth ofpositive changes we can make if
we do fix this problem.
And I think that there've been alot of those moments where I
will say it's also stressfulunderstanding how much of a
difference it could make becauseyou're like"we have to do this.
(39:59):
We have to get this done".
But the more people who can kindof feel that urgency and that
like light under their seat?
You know, that kind of thing,that is what will make the
difference and where we canreally mobilize people to make
change.
Valerie Earnshaw (40:13):
So we've talked a little bit about the
process of coalition building ofgetting the stakeholders at the
table.
Okay.
So now you have yourstakeholders and let's pretend
you've got the research.
Like you have all these gapsfilled in.
What next, like, what do you do?
How do you go engage with Dover,I guess, which is our state
Capitol?
Like how do you level that upthe, like, up the chain.
(40:35):
And I know you said you're moreon the advocacy side, but I'm
just, I'm curious as to how thathappens.
Liz Richards (40:41):
Well and that's the part that I know very well,
frankly.
I mean, that's the advocacy partthat's basically, and we use the
research to form the coalitiontoo.
Like when we're talking topeople about, this is why you
should care about this issue.
This is why you should join.
The research is already there.
That's already helping us atevery step of the way, but
basically a number of theorganizations within our
(41:02):
coalition have are powerful intheir own right.
And they all are already talkingto lawmakers about a number of
priorities for them.
The cool thing about a coalitionis the strength in numbers.
It's like, it's not just thateach of us do this.
We are all speaking together inone voice that we want to get
this done.
And having said that there weresome groups that are still
outside our coalition who werepushing just as hard, the AARP,
(41:24):
for example, this is their toppriority of the year.
And they are a huge power playerin Dover because it's a huge
constituency in Delaware.
They get a lot done, they do alot of wonderful work.
And so it's basically talking tolawmakers in Dover, you know,
the people who are heading theseorganizations, but the other
piece of it is communicatingwith those lawmakers
(41:46):
constituents back home, makingphone calls, knocking on doors.
I mean, that's not reallyhappening right now because of
the pandemic, but engagingdifferent communities, having
public events like publicinformation.
Um, a lot of that happens onsocial media.
We are kind of getting the wordout and a lot of it is engaging
existing networks.
So a lot of the groups in ourcoalition have a number of
(42:08):
members that are payingattention to what they're doing
and what they care about.
So when the bill gets released,which is actually going to be in
a couple of days, it's planningto be introduced, sneak peak,
surprise, surprise.
There will be a action alertthat goes out and says, contact
your legislator.
This is the time it's released.
We need to let everyone knowthat you want to see this
(42:28):
happen.
So really the most effectivepeople to pass a policy are a
legislator's constituents.
The more they hear from thoseconstituents, the more they're
like, okay, if I want to keep myjob, I better do what they tell
me to do.
So that is what we are doing.
And I will also say that one ofthe challenges of paid leave as
a policy is that we're often upagainst a monied lobby that is
(42:53):
pushing against it.
We may not have as much money asthem, but we have the people on
our side.
And so what we are reallyfocused on is the people power
side of it, making sure that welift up those voices, share the
stories of people who have beenimpacted by this.
And frankly, you know, promotebusiness owners who do support
this and do see the value andunderstand that is actually the
(43:15):
most cost-effective way toprovide a brand new benefit to
their employees that will savethem money by reducing turnover.
And that will really improvemorale.
There's just what the studiesshow and get their employees
back sooner.
If they take leave.
Valerie Earnshaw (43:31):
Well, Liz, as someone who myself lives with a
chronic illness and someone whowould want to take time off for
loved ones, if they were to getsick and just like, as a human
being in Delaware, I'm reallygrateful that you're doing this
work.
So thank you for doing it.
Thanks for talking about it withus today.
It sounds like you're on trackto like put yourself out of a
(43:53):
job.
So I'm really excited to seewhat next great things you do
after, after you accomplish thisgoal with your MPH.
And we hope that you'll comeback, you know, maybe next
summer and tell us what newthings are on your horizon.
So thank you so much.
Liz Richards (44:09):
Thank you.
And Carly, Valerie, just, thishas been great.
I've really enjoyed talking toboth of you and what a great
podcast.
Thank you.
Valerie Earnshaw (44:20):
Thanks to the Stigma and Health Inequities Lab
at the University of Delawarefor their help at the podcast,
including Sarah Lopez, MollyMarine, James Wallace, and
Ashley Roberts.
Carly Hill (44:30):
Thanks to city girl for the music.
As always be sure to check usout on Instagram at Sex, Drugs,
Science, and stay up to date onnew episodes by clicking
subscribe.
Valerie Earnshaw (44:38):
Thanks to all of you for listening.
(45:08):
[inaudible].
Okay.
I'm Valerie Earnshaw.
Carly Hill (00:13):
I'm Carly hill.
Valerie Earnshaw (00:14):
and this is sex drugs, and science welcome
everybody to season two.
Carly Hill (00:20):
Good to be back!
Valerie Earnshaw (00:23):
one of our goals for this season is to
connect more with people who areapplying or using science in
some way outside of academia.
So, you know, like out there inthe real world.
This season, you're going tohear from scientists, who are
studying policies related to sexand drugs, and also advocates
and communities for helping tochange policies.
But then you're also going toget our regular programming
(00:44):
around sex and drugs science.
Carly Hill (00:46):
Yes.
So we're kicking off the seasonwith a conversation with Liz
Richards.
Liz is the executive director ofDelaware Cares, which is an
organization advocating for paidfamily and medical leave in
Delaware, which is our homestate.
So we thought Liz would be agreat person to talk to about
using science, to advocate forpolicy change and start
brainstorming about howscientists can support the
(01:08):
efforts of people trying to makechange.
Valerie Earnshaw (01:10):
So we taped this on April 30th and on May
5th, one of our local senators,Senator Sarah McBrideintroduced
the healthy Delaware familiesact to create a statewide paid
family and medical leaveinsurance program.
So, the bill is currently withcommittee.
So as Liz advises all of us onthe podcast, if you're a
(01:30):
resident of Delaware, and if yousupport this policy, now is a
good time for you to contactyour representative and let them
know that you support this veryscience-supported very
evidence-based bill.
So we hope that you enjoy thisepisode with Liz Richards.
(01:51):
Liz Richards.
Welcome to the show.
Liz Richards (01:54):
Thank you so much, Valerie.
It's great to be here.
Valerie Earnshaw (01:58):
So we are looking so forward to having a
conversation with you about theintersections of science and
policy and advocacy, but beforewe do our deep dive into that,
I'd love to get to know a littlebit more about your background.
You are a native Delawarean andyou grew up in Delaware and you
and Carly met each other in highschool at the famed Cab
(02:19):
Calloway, which is an arts highschool in Wilmington, right?
Carly Hill (02:22):
Cab Callaway school of the arts!
Valerie Earnshaw (02:26):
Cab Callaway School of the Arts, All right.
So I'm going to roll in with myfirst, like very hard hitting
question of the day, which iswhat was Carly like in high
school?
Liz Richards (02:34):
Oh, well, I would say that Carly's defining
feature then, which is Carly'sdefining feature now is her
smile that.
Valerie Earnshaw (02:42):
Aww!
Liz Richards (02:42):
The best smiles.
And I feel like I just rememberCarly always laughing at
something and always being acheerful light in the room.
Really!
Carly Hill (02:53):
Isn't that so lovely slash also much lovelier than I
think my high school selfdeserved, but I'll,
Liz Richards (03:01):
Well, I have to tell the podcast people because
I'm not sure they can see yoursmile and..
and it's, it's a good one.
And Cab Callaway was a bit of agoofy school in many ways and we
loved it for that reason.
And a big group of misfits.
Would you say Carly?
Carly Hill (03:15):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It's just, uh, an amalgam ofpeople of all walks of life with
all interests and just like acool place to be.
I think a really uniqueexperience.
Liz Richards (03:27):
It was, I miss it.
I mean, I'm from Delaware, grewup here, have lived other places
and so happy to be back here forgood and c abs just down the
street from me now.
So I don't stray far away.
Carly Hill (03:41):
Well, I can say that in high school, Liz was the
absolute boss.
Not at all surprised to hearthat you're the executive
director of this coalition.
Delaware Cares.
Liz was always like in mocktrial and like debate and like,
just like I knew somehow thatLiz would be doing big things
like this.
Liz Richards (04:04):
That is very generous of you.
I feel like I was probablyoverextending myself in too many
clubs at the time.
That's all right.
Valerie Earnshaw (04:14):
Okay.
These answers are great.
I honestly thought you weregoing to say Carly's most
memorable traits were likeriding around on a unicycle
while play a ukulele becausethat's how I envisioned her
based on these stories fromthese time periods.
But.
Carly Hill (04:28):
I'm not saying it didn't happen.
Liz Richards (04:31):
Yeah.
She fit right in with that.
Yeah.
Valerie Earnshaw (04:33):
That was the vibe, right?
Yeah.
And then, yeah, I'm not at allsurprised to hear that you were
a boss, as Carly said, becausethe career trajectory today, it
really is quite boss-like Sofrom what Carly tells us, after
you graduated from Cab Calloway,you went on to American
University and you studiedpolitical science?
Liz Richards (04:52):
I did.
Yes.
And fun fact for some folks whomay or may not know the sponsor
of our bill, who w as a Delawarel egislator, Senator S arah
McBride.
We both went to AmericanUniversity and S arah was the
student body president.
I was the student body vicepresident.
So just kind of continued theCab Calloway.
I would say that I turned, weturned American university into
(05:15):
like a continuation of cabCalloway school for the arts.
So still Delaware pride all theway through.
Carly Hill (05:20):
Yes.
Valerie Earnshaw (05:21):
I love this.
Let's put a quick plug for SarahMcBride's book on my bookshelf.
Not here.
Carly Hill (05:28):
Also.
This might be the third orfourth time we've plugged this
book on the podcast.
We're going to have to...
Valerie Earnshaw (05:34):
We Sent a copy of the book to Carmen Loggy our
first guest.
Yeah.
I had just finished reading it,but anyway, she talks about her
experiences at Americanuniversity and It's like, it's
lovely.
It's where the book starts.
So you, You've known each othersince high school through
university and now you'reworking together.
Okay.
So that's a great background.
Liz Richards (05:52):
Yeah.
I assure your listeners herethat there were many years in
between where we were not goingto the same school or doing the
same thing, but it's kind ofcool that coming back to
Delaware and especially thistime doing this and working to
make changes and make people'slives better, it's been really
cool and really fun.
Valerie Earnshaw (06:12):
So it sounds like then there was a break.
So what were you doing betweenAmerican university?
And it sounds like coming backto Delaware, what was the
meantime?
Liz Richards (06:20):
I was working on, uh, political campaigns across
the country.
Valerie Earnshaw (06:24):
Oh, okay.
Liz Richards (06:25):
Yes.
Initially.
I mean a brief history of myresume, I guess immediately
after college, I worked at thedemocratic senatorial campaign
committee that was in 2012.
And so those were Senate racesacross the country.
But then I went on races in NewJersey and Wisconsin worked on
some governor's races and thengot into political organizing
(06:46):
and media in particular.
So making TV ads for progressivecandidates and causes, and then
in between all that, it's kindof hopping around.
The thing that really got me,where I am here is that in 2017,
I had managed a similarcoalition effort in Maryland to
pass a paid sick days law.
And when I came back to Delawarewas thinking, you know, I know
(07:09):
that paid family medical leaveis something that needs to
happen now.
And something that had kind ofbeen on the radar.
So that experience reallycatapulted my interest in paid
leave policies and got methinking and talking to people
about how it really impactsevery level of people's lives.
So there's been a lot of twistsand turns in between, but yeah,
it's good to be back inDelaware.
(07:30):
And I was saying before thepodcast started, I I've been in
Delaware for a while since I'vecome back, but just move
recently.
And I think everyone right nowwith the pandemic is kind of
doing a million things at onetime and power to everyone out
there because it's a lot.
Valerie Earnshaw (07:45):
Absolutely.
Well, Delaware is a great placeto be during that pandemic.
I'm going to make a plug for it.
I mean, between our parks andour beaches and good takeout,
food everywhere.
It's been a, it's been a solidplace to come home to.
Liz Richards (07:57):
Oh, most definitely.
What are your favorite takeoutplaces I'm gonna put you on the
spot.
Valerie Earnshaw (08:01):
All right.
So up the road from me, we'vegot daily vege, just like a
vegan place.
Liz Richards (08:07):
Is that on market street?
Valerie Earnshaw (08:09):
So there's one on Main street in Newark and
then up here in pike Creek.
So that's been one of my go-tospots during the pandemic.
Yeah.
How about you all?
What's your go-to pandemic food?
Carly Hill (08:24):
I got to go with my gyro place, my falafel gyro
place.
It's the Halaal Kebab house.
And it's behind where the BurgerKing used to be on Delaware
avenue and South Chapel.
There used to be a burger kingsomewhere abouts there
catty-corner to the seven 11.
It was once a little Caesar's,but is now the world's greatest
(08:45):
falafel kebab gyro place ever.
Liz Richards (08:49):
That's a glow up right there.
It is.
I'm going to go old school.
Like I've been getting a lot ofCapriotti's a lot of Italian and
subs hoagies really, but yeah, Imean, I've been going back to my
roots, a lot of potato chips,I've been consuming a lot of
potato chips over this pandemic,
Carly Hill (09:11):
It's a constant for me, like my whole life, but
definitely upped my chip game inthe pandemic.
Yeah.
Valerie Earnshaw (09:16):
We are really off track here listeners, but I
just want to say, I discoveredall dressed chips during the
pandemic, which is like acombination of barbecue and like
sea salt and vinegar orsomething.
And I didn't, you know, I'm nota super chip person, the husband
character slash roommate is achip person.
But I mean, if one of thosethings are open, it's going to
(09:37):
be empty.
Like I can relate to this chippandemic issue.
Liz Richards (09:42):
Did the flavors clash?
Valerie Earnshaw (09:44):
No.
They meld beautifully.
It's amazing.
I highly recommend it.
I think it's Canada's number oneship really in the bag says,
Liz Richards (09:55):
well, I'm in,
Carly Hill (09:57):
we'll have to have the undergrads do research on
that.
Yes.
To confirm.
Valerie Earnshaw (10:02):
Yeah.
Well, okay.
So I'm going to take us on a, ona hard right turn from all dress
chips back to Delaware cares.
And then you, could you tell usa little bit about what the
current state of paid leave isin our state for like for family
and medical related reasons?
What, where do we stand inDelaware currently?
Liz Richards (10:21):
Sure! When people hear paid leave, they think of a
lot of different things becauseit doesn't necessarily mean one
thing.
Some people think of it.
If they talk about paid leave,they may be thinking, oh, I can
get a sick day.
I get paid a sick day.
Some people think, oh, that's myPTO or whatever.
Paid family and medical leavethough.
I think that most closelyrelates to FMLA.
(10:42):
Have you, either of you heard ofFMLA?
So that's the thing I think mostpeople are like, oh, I'm
familiar with FMLA don't we haveFMLA.
Yes.
It's a federal law that ensuresthat a worker won't get fired.
If they have to take an extendedperiod of leave, say to have a
child, or if they are seriouslyill, they need to be out for a
while.
It means that they won't losetheir job.
(11:02):
However, in Delaware, nearly 60%of Delawareans are not even
covered under FMLA and mind you,that is unpaid leave.
So that would mean you're outfor weeks and weeks and weeks at
a time, whether it's becauseyou're seriously, ill have a
child that you just gave birthto or welcomed into your family.
And that's unpaid.
(11:22):
So even among the 60% who don'thave access to it among the 40%
who do so many, just can'tafford to take several weeks off
when they're not getting apaycheck.
There are have been nine statesin the district of Columbia that
have passed laws similar to theone that we have developed here
in Delaware and are working topass that would ensure that all
(11:45):
workers have access to some sortof paid family and medical
leave.
So currently Delaware does nothave this.
It does for state, they passed alaw a few years back ensuring
that state workers can haveparental leave.
And that that would cover sothat if they have a child, they
can take paid parental leave,but that does not apply to
(12:05):
people across the board.
It does not include leave for aserious illness.
And it also doesn't includecaregiver leave, which has been
incredibly important during thepandemic.
There are so many people outthere who are acting as
caregivers to their familymember who is seriously ill or
is going through a sickness.
And I think we've seen a lot ofthat during COVID where people
will have to figure it outwithin their own household.
(12:27):
And it's a really big deal.
If you are acting basically as afull-time caregiver to somebody
AND trying to work at the sametime, trying to get, get a
paycheck.
So basically these laws thathave been passed in nine other
states and DC have created astate insurance fund to ensure
that everyone has access to paidfamily and medical leave when
(12:47):
they need it.
Delaware does not have thatright now.
And as a result, there's a lotof people out there that are in
a really tough spot, especiallyduring the pandemic.
And that's what we're trying todo.
Valerie Earnshaw (12:56):
Yeah, that's phenomenal.
I mean, I was digging around alittle bit on the research on
what are the benefits of paidleave.
And I mean, it's just such aslam dunk, you know, so I mean,
as you all cite in so many ofyour reports paid maternity and
paternity leave, paid parentalleave is associated with all
(13:16):
sorts of better outcomes forparents and babies, right?
Like longer breastfeeding,reduced morbidity and mortality,
even higher vaccination ratesfor babies I saw and then better
maternal health.
It looks to me like some of thebest research is on paid
parental leave.
But then also I saw some statson people without paid sick
leave are like three times morelikely to forego medical
(13:40):
treatment, which to me isbananas three times more likely
not to go get healthcare whenyou need that healthcare,
because you don't have thatleave.
And then they're like loved onesare one and a half or 1.6 times
less likely to get care as wellor more likely to forego care.
(14:00):
I guess that's the way that itwas phrased.
So like not only is the personless likely to get care of their
loved ones are less likely toget care because they can't
support them.
So if you just think throughlike the accumulating impacts on
health over a lifetime for likenot being able to get the care
when you need it, when you'resick, I mean, that's just
astronomical.
It's such a big issue.
Liz Richards (14:21):
That's exactly right.
And I think you hit the nail onthe head when you said one
problem compounds, the othercompounds, it's just stacking on
top of each other, all thesedifferent stresses.
You know, when someone is facingan illness, that's a big deal
and they should be focusing ontheir health.
They should be focusing ongetting better.
They shouldn't be focusing onhow am I going to pay my
electric bill this month?
(14:41):
Where am I going to like put mykids in school?
Like, how am I going to dealwith this?
And that's really what'shappening right now.
And we are benefiting from theresearch that's been done.
Other states that have passedthese k inds of laws, where it
does show, wow.
The d ifference i s reallystark.
And I think one other statisticthat I thought was particularly
interesting is that inCalifornia, they saw nursing
(15:02):
home usage go down becausebasically family caregivers can
have the time to care for aloved one.
If they need to transition to anew care system or anything like
that.
And it's something that,especially during the pandemic,
this has always been a need.
But during the pandemic, thepeople that I talked to have
just said, we really got to getthis done.
If it's not now, when is it?
(15:22):
And the data is there.
We actually, yesterday or twodays ago now the Delaware
academy of medicine and theDelaware public health
association put out a verystrong statement, supporting
paid family medical leave.
And that's just really what thedata has shown.
That it's something that helpsfamilies and keeps people
healthier.
Valerie Earnshaw (15:39):
I saw that come out.
I was like, this is tremendous.
This is a really big deal.
Congratulations.
Cause I'm sure that the advocacywork of your organization
probably had something to dowith that.
So it's phenomenal.
And I mean, so not only are ourlocal Delaware organizations on
board with this, also I thinkthe American Public Health
Association supports it.
The American Academy ofPediatrics supports it.
(16:01):
To me, you're the expert, but itlooks like the nuances of what
they recommend differ a littlebit between the different
statements, but across the boardhealth organizations are like,
they're like (16:11):
this is something that's important to have.
Liz Richards (16:14):
Absolutely.
And I think that we're startingto see people make those
connections between health andthe economy and our broader
social systems, becausecurrently I'm actually, while
I'm doing this, I'm getting mymaster's in public health.
And one of the things they talkabout a lot is the social
determinants of health, which isbasically in a nutshell is, you
know, you could be taking a tonof medications, you could be
(16:36):
going to the doctor every day,but if these structural
limitations are in your way,that are getting in the way of
your health, that is the stuffthat makes the biggest
difference.
So it's really, I think a signthat the public health community
is moving in that direction.
And they're really recognizingthat if we want to improve
people's outcomes and quality oflife, we have to address the
root causes of health problems.
(16:58):
And so that's really, I thinkwhere a lot of that's coming
from and we've had great leaderslike the Delaware Nurses
Association that was an earliersupporter in our coalition.
And the people that have reallybeen on the front lines are the
ones who really see the need forthis and want to get it done.
Valerie Earnshaw (17:14):
So Liz you've mentioned this a few different
times about how, you know,there's increased attention to
this right now during thecurrent pandemic.
So can you talk about how thepandemic has sort of shown a
light on this issue?
What are some of the things thatpeople have been experiencing
that would make their liveseasier if they had the ability
to take a longer leave or aleave at all?
Liz Richards (17:36):
Right.
Well, president Biden touched onthis last night in his state of
the union, but across the nationtwo and a half million women
have left the workforce.
And that's in large part becausethey have not been able to
square the demands of work andfamily, and a lot of that's
because there's things going onwith childcare.
(17:56):
But a lot of it too is a familymember who is sick and they need
to act as the primary caregiver.
We know that women are morelikely to be primary caregivers
in households.
And we also know that during thepandemic that has really, really
been exacerbated.
So that is where a lot of theurgency is coming from.
But it's also happened before,before I've talked to a lot of
(18:16):
women who, when they have a kidand they don't have paid family
and medical leave and they havea child and they have to be out
for an extended period of timeanyway, they're not going to
have any pay and no guarantee ofgetting their job back.
A lot of them just say, you knowwhat, I'm just leaving all
together.
And a lot of them would comeback if they had that option and
studies have shown that workersare more likely to come back
(18:39):
after taking leave if they haveit, if they have it paid.
So that's one thing.
And frankly, just the pandemichas highlighted the injustice of
the system.
There are a lot of healthcareworkers out there who are on the
front lines, who do not haveaccess to paid family medical
leave.
They are the ones that aretaking care of people in those
situations, but there's a lot ofCNAs and people that are working
(19:03):
in the healthcare system thatdon't have those benefits
themselves.
So I think that we owe it tothem.
We owe it to our communities tomake sure that everyone has the
ability to care for themselvesand their family when illness
strikes.
So we're really focusing onthat.
And frankly, this is an economicissue of making sure we can keep
people in the workforce, keeppeople going, because otherwise
(19:25):
we are going to continue to seethese trends where we lose women
in the workforce.
And we see people struggling tomake ends meet.
Valerie Earnshaw (19:34):
As I'm listening to you.
Like I'm typically like a glasshalf full optimist kind of
person, especially I think as astigma researcher, you have to
be because like, you know, ifyou thought that no change was
ever possible, it could be avery tough thing to research,
but as someone who's like notreally involved with political
(19:54):
systems, I mean, I vote, I do,you know, all of the.
Carly Hill (19:58):
your civic duties.
Valerie Earnshaw (20:00):
Civic duties,Yeah.
But beyond that, I think,especially, I don't know if it's
the case that this is an issuemore so in our current political
climate or our recent politicalclimate, I think it's really
easy for people to feeldisillusioned and that stuff
doesn't get done.
And then also when I layer intothis, like the gender issues,
(20:20):
and also after this to ask youabout some of the racial
inequity issues...
I feel like when there areissues that disproportionately
affect women and people ofcolor, it's like harder to get
traction on making change.
So how are you feeling in termsof optimism right now?
I mean, do you feel like there'spurchase?
That maybe there's anopportunity to make leave or to
(20:44):
make change?
It's great that some of ourpublic health association and
medical associations have thisweek been like, we need this,
but we've had our nationalassociations calling for this
for like 15 years.
So how optimistic are youfeeling as someone who's like in
the trenches of the issue?
Liz Richards (21:00):
I'm feeling more optimistic than ever that a
policy like this could happenand I'll tell you why.
Valerie Earnshaw (21:08):
Yes.
Liz Richards (21:09):
First of all, we have a legislature that I think
certainly in the Senateleadership who released a great
op-ed.
I think it was last week sayingthat this is the single most
impactful policy we could passin the wake of COVID-19.
I think that the Senate wants toget this done and I'm hopeful
that the house will as well.
And I think that the pandemichas kind of reset the political
(21:32):
agenda to a certain extent,certainly for the minds of
families who really are going tobe voting on these issues, I
truly believe.
And when you talk to them, theseare the things they're most
concerned about.
But I would also say that Iagree with your point, that care
has been undervalued for a long,long time.
Especially when we talk about onthe national level, they are,
(21:54):
have been doing, pushing theline, that care is
infrastructure.
I n a new infrastructure packagethat they've been pushing.
They've been reiterating thatit's not just about building
roads and bridges.
It's about making sure thatfamilies at home can continue
working, that t hey, we have theinfrastructure at home to have a
workforce that can be healthyand keep going.
So I think that in the comingdays and weeks, we're going to
(22:17):
see a lot more coming from ourlawmakers, which is really
exciting because it's reallyjust something t hat their
voters are demanding and they listened to their constituents.
And that's what we've beenfocusing on.
We've also been engaging,unusual communities that you may
not think would be on board.
We've been engaging child abuseprevention communities.
(22:38):
We've been engaging domesticviolence prevention communities.
And I think everyone is comingtogether because it really just
does touch every part of oureconomy and our workforce a nd
our life.
So we are building a broadcoalition and showing that t
here's a real desire to get thisdone now.
Valerie Earnshaw (22:54):
I think Carly, you were remarking on what a
broad coalition this was.
Did you have any,
Carly Hill (23:01):
Right Yeah, that was actually was one of my questions
that I was just curious for myown knowledge really is just,
what does it look like when allthese stakeholders come together
and sort of like, you know,especially the faith-based,
that's an interesting thing thatwe haven't really talked about
on the show being, you know,sex, drugs and science religion
doesn't come up often.
So can you tell me a little bitmore about that?
Liz Richards (23:21):
Yeah.
If you think about when someonewould need paid family medical
leave, we're talking abouthaving a child, maybe it's end
of life.
Maybe it's someone who's reallysick.
A lot of those situations aresituations where people turn to
their faith community.
They call up their pastor, theycall up their priest.
They talk to folks.
And I think that that's kind ofthe stop of where a lot of this
(23:43):
community help comes from.
We did a segment with RabbiRobinson over from down in
Wilmington, and he was wonderfuland talked about how these
connections really overlap.
Communities of faith were alsoinvolved in the paid sick days
effort when I was doing that inMaryland.
And I think that that is reallywhere a lot of that comes from.
And when you talk to people andkind of explain the issue they
(24:04):
immediately get in.
And I think that there's a lotof people out there who, you
know, me as a person of faith,believe that this is something
that ties in with their beliefsand ties in with what they want
to get done.
And I think that it's beenreally inspiring to see everyone
coming together for this.
And in terms of like the, thenuts and bolts of how it
happens.
I mean, it's really like a fieldcampaign.
(24:25):
Getting back to my campaigntraining.
It's you talk to people, youexplain what it is.
You, you make your pitch, youhear what they have to say.
You hear what they think aboutit and why it would matter to
them.
It's not like a, oh, okay, letme just send out a notice.
And everyone get on board.
It is really, it takes a lot ofwork and it takes a lot of
conversations.
And then, you know, with eachnew group that comes on, we
(24:46):
basically talk together weekly,talk about our plans, take
actions, get things happening,because I think we are all
focused on the same thing, Itmakes it a lot easier.
There are some coalitions thatare pretty broad and they work
on a number of things-- Becausewe are kind of laser focused on
paid family medical leave.
I think everyone has somethingdifferent to contribute.
(25:07):
So it's been really, reallygreat and exciting and we're
going forward every day and newthings are happening.
So it's really cool.
Carly Hill (25:15):
That's awesome.
So how do, how can, how canscientists sort of help with
these grassroots efforts withthese sort of, like you said,
knocking around, going back toyour campaign roots, you know,
how can we as scientists helpyou and others like you?
Liz Richards (25:30):
Well, one thing that if any Delaware scientists
are listening to this that wouldlike to contribute their
expertise and skills.
One of the best things to do isto contact your legislator and
you can do that a number of waysyou can reach out directly, but
there's also opportunities totestify.
And that could be throughwritten testimony and in public
(25:50):
in-person testimony.
I mean, right now it's virtual,but when this bill does go
through, there is an opportunityto basically for every, every
Delawarean, but I thinkparticularly for scientists who
focus on the broad implicationsthat have an effect on everybody
to kind of share your knowledgeand share why you think this is
important.
So that's one thing I think theother thing that you can do is
(26:13):
do research on this, frankly, Iknow Valerie, you referenced a
number of studies that we workwith that research every day we
are using it.
And all these policies arereally rooted in that research
and science.
And I think that it could bemore expansive, frankly.
I think there's a lot of placesto investigate that haven't been
done yet.
And so continuing to explore theimpact on families, continuing
(26:37):
to have a better understandingon how this affects health
outcomes, I think is reallyhelpful as we develop these
policies and make the case forwhy the specifics of it are so
important too, because as ageneral policy, it's important.
But when we get into the nittygritty of, you know, what should
the wage replacement level beand why does that matter?
And why is it important thatevery worker is covered, not
(27:00):
just workers that work at abusiness, 50 employees and more.
I think all of those thingsreally help us have a full
understanding of how thisimpacts families and improves
health.
Valerie Earnshaw (27:10):
So this is super helpful.
I mean, this is like, this isreally great to hear as someone
who does science that hopefully,maybe sometimes it has
implications for changes thatpeople are actually trying to
make.
So, so one thing that I'm reallyinterested in, what you're
saying is that the research isout there, you're using the
research.
First, just a small question.
(27:31):
Like where do you find theresearch?
Like, are you on, I go to Googlescholar, like, do you go to, do
you find the peer reviewedpapers?
Or do you read summaries?
Like where do you access theresearch?
Liz Richards (27:41):
Well, I read summaries most of the time,
there's different organizationsat the national level that have
really been helping coordinatethis.
And frankly we coordinatetogether and they kind of have
led the research and coordinatedwith different groups and really
dug in.
So there are experts on thenational level who really know
the ins and outs and are franklythe ones that are helping really
(28:02):
write the laws.
Concurrently while we arewriting the state law, there's a
federal proposal that's on thetable.
It hasn't been introduced yet,but there's really a whole paid
leave network, essentially ofpeople that have been working on
this issue for decades now,longer than I have for sure, and
have been really hammering awayat it.
I mean, a lot of the studiesthat I've read and referenced to
(28:24):
go back to the nineties or theeighties, some of them, you
know, especially when you'retalking about maternity leave
and of course we are focused onparental leave because we know
that it's important for mothersand fathers to have access to
paid leave when a child is born,frankly, it also takes
experimentation.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
The more states that do this, the more research that
can be done on how the policiesactually have an effect.
Because right now it's a lot oflike, okay, well, this business
did this and we're doing a pilotstudy or something like that.
But as we pass more policies,we'll have a more full
understanding of how we can bothpass the laws, but then improve
them over time and make thingscontinue to make things workable
(29:03):
and better for families.
Valerie Earnshaw (29:05):
So to me, it sounds like one thing that could
be useful for scientists doingwork in any area is to make sure
or think about ways that ifyou're doing research that's
relevant to an organization andwhat they're doing out there in
the world, that maybe you shouldtry to make sure it crosses
their desk.
You know, like either byconnecting with whoever that
(29:28):
leader in the field is in yourfield, that you know, is doing
policy relevant work or who isworking in these groups, like
get it to them so they caninclude it in the reports or
reach out to the Liz's of theworld and just say, Hey, I live
down the street from you, I'm atthe university of Delaware.
I did this thing.
Maybe it's helpful for you.
I don't know.
But for us just publishing inour journal is not enough.
(29:51):
Usually it might, you know,maybe, but we need to be
thinking about how can we get itinto these, like into these
summaries?
Or how can we, how can we becommunicating directly with the
groups that we think could useit?
And maybe we need to be morethoughtful.
I think scientists, aren'talways great about reaching out
and being like,"Hey Liz, youknow, I did this little study,
(30:12):
maybe it's useful for you".
Carly Hill (30:13):
Or like you said to Liz, it's not like you just like
send out a bulletin to everyonein the state.
And you're like, cool, we're acoalition now everybody's on
board.
Like you have to, you know, so,and that's kind of what we as
scientists, I think that we'reguilty of doing is saying like,
okay, we did that paper.
It's out there, it's yourresponsibility to go look at it
and do whatever you want withit.
Like, my, my work is done.
I think that's kind of the linkwe're missing.
There is like, how do we get itto, to the Liz's?
(30:36):
And like, do we, you know, maybeit is as simple as like just
going out and doing it yourself,you know, sending the email with
the paper attached or doingwhatever and sort of getting
better at that as a sciencecommunity.
Liz Richards (30:48):
Absolutely.
I mean, I, it would be thrillingto me if that would happen.
And I know it does.
Like, I will also say that, youknow, as I'm taking public
health classes, like I'mlearning how to read scientific
papers, but the people in theadvocacy world, which is where I
kind of sit, I dabble in thepolicy side.
I mean, it's, it's allinterconnected, but, but there
(31:08):
are people that specialize incertain parts of it and the
advocacy folks, we all rely oneach other.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
There's no use in research that is never acted on.
So that's the, what we're doing.
And in my public health, I'mgoing to, I'm going to Johns
Hopkins for public health rightnow...
Valerie Earnshaw (31:25):
Oh is that, you know, you decided to like
really settle on your PublicHealth education.
You're like"oh just go to thisschool.
I t's like close by.."
Liz Richards (31:34):
Online! It's all online.
So it's fun.
Valerie Earnsha (31:37):
Congratulations That's tremendous.
Carly Hill (31:39):
yeah!
Valerie Earnshaw (31:39):
Public health degree at Hopkins.
That's l ike really phenomenal.
So.
Liz Richards (31:44):
Thank you! I appreciate it.
It's been really interesting andreally cool to do while this is
all going on.
But I guess what I was justthinking was that I'm always the
one that's boiling it down,trying to make it, I'm trying to
be the in-between between theresearchers and the people,
because we really, this is aboutcommunicating to a very large
(32:04):
number of people.
And so a lot of my fellowstudents at Hopkins are doctors,
or they are doing research orthey are doing these things.
And I always feel like theperson in the room knows the
talking point version of a lotof things, but I'm delving more
into the other side and viceversa.
So I felt like a fish out ofwater, but more and more, I
think it's important to, to knowthe science behind it and to
(32:27):
understand why those studies aredone the way they are.
But also understanding from myperspective, like what I live
and breathe is the translatingand the advocacy to make sure
that it's accessible toeverybody and to make sure that
we can actually get things done.
So that's what I'm working on.
Valerie Earnshaw (32:44):
Couldn't love it more.
I mean, I think it's an allhands on deck, you know, like we
need the...
So for...
The reason you, I think, bringup doctors in particular is that
a lot of people who are MDs goback after they get their MD to
get an MPH, a Master's in PublicHealth, which I don't know, it's
like a glutton for punishmenttype.
(33:05):
So that's why, especially at aplace like Hopkins, which is one
of our top schools, publichealth in the nation, you're
going to see a lot of likedoctors in your Master's
classes, but Liz, the otherthing that I'm like reflecting
one as you're talking is that assomeone who's working in the
advocacy field, you're seeinggaps, you're seeing gaps in the
(33:25):
research that if you had answersto certain questions, you'd be
able to do better advocacy.
So, can we hover for a moment onthat and brainstorm together
about if you're seeing gaps?
How can you tell researchersabout those?
You know, how can we buildconnections?
Is it that we need to getresearchers at the table to be
(33:46):
learning about that together?
I think in general, a lot ofscientists are like, here is my
program of research.
I'm doing this study.
Here's what interests me.
But a lot of people areinterested in doing science that
is helpful for communities.
So, so from your perspective, assomeone who's straddling this,
like, you know, taking coursesand your MPH and learning about
(34:08):
this process, but also someonewho looks around and sees gaps
in the research, what are yourthoughts on how we can engage
scientists to address some ofthese things that aren't being
currently addressed?
Liz Richards (34:21):
It's an interesting question, because I
think all it takes is outreach.
Sometimes it's figuring out whothat person is and you have no
idea.
Like, I'm sure there's plenty ofpeople out there right now in
Delaware who may be interestedor researching around these
areas who just have never heardof the Delaware Cares Coalition
before.
And that's largely because weonly started this year, we're
(34:43):
brand new, but it goes bothways.
And I think that the willingnessto do that kind of outreach, the
willingness to tailor yourresearch to something that other
people are working on.
And frankly just like continuingto work on something that's
already begun rather than goingoff in a different direction on
something completely new.
Although that's great too,frankly, but I'm every day
(35:06):
connecting with new people andit's a lot.
And I think that it's reallyjust a matter of asking.
It's kind of a terrible answer,
Valerie Earnshaw (35:12):
I t hink t hat's a great answer,and I
think, I mean, that was sort ofan unfair question b ecause I'm
asking the only n on-scientiston the call to tell me.
Liz Richards (35:22):
It's funny.
I asked my cousin this questionthough, c ause she is a r
esearcher.
She happened to also get herMBA, but she's getting her
doctorate in public health inCalifornia.
And I asked her a similarquestion.
I'm like, okay, so you do athesis, you write it and where
does it go?
I have no idea.
And she's like, oh, that's thedistribution phase.
(35:42):
And I'm like, okay, what isthat?
U m, because I've asked myselfthe same question, many times
there are specific questions anddata points that I have
wondered.
And I've asked like some of thenational experts that they have
that data point and they'relike, no, we don't.
And it's really like a resourceallocation question for, I think
a lot of things.
I mean, frankly research andscience is not always cheap.
(36:05):
And I think it's a matter ofprioritizing the questions you
want to answer in many cases.
But I think that if you havethat and there's the willingness
and the people that want to doit, it's really just a matter of
connecting them.
And maybe there's more things wecan be doing to do that because
I don't know if a current like,system for it.
Do you?
Valerie Earnshaw (36:23):
So at some universities there are, and
university of Delaware hassomething like this, like
community engagement groups.
And the idea is that communityfolks who have questions or want
to learn about something can goto this like Center and then the
Center will engage people at theUniversity and like vice versa.
Like if you're a universityperson, you can go to the center
(36:45):
and say, I'm doing research inpaid leave and I want to, and
then ideally that person wouldsort of like go find Liz, and
then they would be a matchmaker.
But in, you know, in realitythough, for me as a scientist,
living in Delaware, I have triedto just like show up at groups.
So I show up to the Delaware HIVPlanning Council.
(37:08):
I mean, I've had some conflictswith the meetings, but I try to
sit on working groups.
And I also show up for thechanging perceptions work group
of our like Behavioral HealthConsortium, which is really
focused on like the substanceuse epidemic in Delaware.
We're like the second state withthe highest rates of opioid
(37:29):
overdose deaths.
So I try to just show up tothose, but I also have to say
that I'm more able to do thatnow as like, as a tenured person
who has a bit more flexibilityin my time, although I did do it
pre tenure, but anyway, I'mjust, I'm sensitive to the fact
that people have a lot going onand it's sometimes showing up to
(37:50):
a lot of meetings where you'renot always getting research
done, but you're learning andyou're connecting that, that
takes time.
But I also just like, love it.
I love like learning aboutwhat's going on in the state and
you know, I see, like, researchideas everywhere.
So yeah,
Liz Richards (38:08):
I think that making connections is the
coolest part.
And I will say that I'll tellyou one of the most interesting
intersectional questions thatcame up recently.
There's someone in our coalitionwho is in the coalition in a
different capacity, but theywork a lot on gun violence
prevention.
And they said, if we're notgoing to protect people from gun
(38:29):
violence, we need to make surethey can take paid leave when
they get shot.
Wow.
That was like, whoa.
U h, and she said that thepeople that are being most
impacted by gun violence arealso the ones who are not likely
to have paid family medicalleave.
And she's met people who, youknow, a family member gets shot
(38:49):
and someone is taking unpaidtime to go and care for them or
to see them in the hospital.
And I think that that has beenone of the more interesting
things of this, those kinds ofaha moments when you're like,
wow, I wouldn't have made thatconnection myself.
And I think I only did becauseshe brought it up and it made a
lot of sense.
I'm glad that you're doing thatbecause the more we talked to
(39:09):
each other about those kinds ofthings, the more we can really
connect the dots,
Valerie Earnshaw (39:14):
What a smart observation.
I mean, Delaware is, yeah.
Wilmington has high, high, highrates of gun violence,
especially towards youth.
Like my husband works, in a highschool in Delaware and his
students have experienced gunviolence.
They witnessed gun violence.
Their families are affected bygun violence.
So, wow.
That really, that really is agreat, I mean, that's a sad and
(39:37):
important observation.
Liz Richards (39:38):
But it also shows the to make it on the positive
side, it shows the breadth ofpositive changes we can make if
we do fix this problem.
And I think that there've been alot of those moments where I
will say it's also stressfulunderstanding how much of a
difference it could make becauseyou're like"we have to do this.
(39:59):
We have to get this done".
But the more people who can kindof feel that urgency and that
like light under their seat?
You know, that kind of thing,that is what will make the
difference and where we canreally mobilize people to make
change.
Valerie Earnshaw (40:13):
So we've talked a little bit about the
process of coalition building ofgetting the stakeholders at the
table.
Okay.
So now you have yourstakeholders and let's pretend
you've got the research.
Like you have all these gapsfilled in.
What next, like, what do you do?
How do you go engage with Dover,I guess, which is our state
Capitol?
Like how do you level that upthe, like, up the chain.
(40:35):
And I know you said you're moreon the advocacy side, but I'm
just, I'm curious as to how thathappens.
Liz Richards (40:41):
Well and that's the part that I know very well,
frankly.
I mean, that's the advocacy partthat's basically, and we use the
research to form the coalitiontoo.
Like when we're talking topeople about, this is why you
should care about this issue.
This is why you should join.
The research is already there.
That's already helping us atevery step of the way, but
basically a number of theorganizations within our
(41:02):
coalition have are powerful intheir own right.
And they all are already talkingto lawmakers about a number of
priorities for them.
The cool thing about a coalitionis the strength in numbers.
It's like, it's not just thateach of us do this.
We are all speaking together inone voice that we want to get
this done.
And having said that there weresome groups that are still
outside our coalition who werepushing just as hard, the AARP,
(41:24):
for example, this is their toppriority of the year.
And they are a huge power playerin Dover because it's a huge
constituency in Delaware.
They get a lot done, they do alot of wonderful work.
And so it's basically talking tolawmakers in Dover, you know,
the people who are heading theseorganizations, but the other
piece of it is communicatingwith those lawmakers
(41:46):
constituents back home, makingphone calls, knocking on doors.
I mean, that's not reallyhappening right now because of
the pandemic, but engagingdifferent communities, having
public events like publicinformation.
Um, a lot of that happens onsocial media.
We are kind of getting the wordout and a lot of it is engaging
existing networks.
So a lot of the groups in ourcoalition have a number of
(42:08):
members that are payingattention to what they're doing
and what they care about.
So when the bill gets released,which is actually going to be in
a couple of days, it's planningto be introduced, sneak peak,
surprise, surprise.
There will be a action alertthat goes out and says, contact
your legislator.
This is the time it's released.
We need to let everyone knowthat you want to see this
(42:28):
happen.
So really the most effectivepeople to pass a policy are a
legislator's constituents.
The more they hear from thoseconstituents, the more they're
like, okay, if I want to keep myjob, I better do what they tell
me to do.
So that is what we are doing.
And I will also say that one ofthe challenges of paid leave as
a policy is that we're often upagainst a monied lobby that is
(42:53):
pushing against it.
We may not have as much money asthem, but we have the people on
our side.
And so what we are reallyfocused on is the people power
side of it, making sure that welift up those voices, share the
stories of people who have beenimpacted by this.
And frankly, you know, promotebusiness owners who do support
this and do see the value andunderstand that is actually the
(43:15):
most cost-effective way toprovide a brand new benefit to
their employees that will savethem money by reducing turnover.
And that will really improvemorale.
There's just what the studiesshow and get their employees
back sooner.
If they take leave.
Valerie Earnshaw (43:31):
Well, Liz, as someone who myself lives with a
chronic illness and someone whowould want to take time off for
loved ones, if they were to getsick and just like, as a human
being in Delaware, I'm reallygrateful that you're doing this
work.
So thank you for doing it.
Thanks for talking about it withus today.
It sounds like you're on trackto like put yourself out of a
(43:53):
job.
So I'm really excited to seewhat next great things you do
after, after you accomplish thisgoal with your MPH.
And we hope that you'll comeback, you know, maybe next
summer and tell us what newthings are on your horizon.
So thank you so much.
Liz Richards (44:09):
Thank you.
And Carly, Valerie, just, thishas been great.
I've really enjoyed talking toboth of you and what a great
podcast.
Thank you.
Valerie Earnshaw (44:20):
Thanks to the Stigma and Health Inequities Lab
at the University of Delawarefor their help at the podcast,
including Sarah Lopez, MollyMarine, James Wallace, and
Ashley Roberts.
Carly Hill (44:30):
Thanks to city girl for the music.
As always be sure to check usout on Instagram at Sex, Drugs,
Science, and stay up to date onnew episodes by clicking
subscribe.
Valerie Earnshaw (44:38):
Thanks to all of you for listening.
(45:08):
[inaudible].
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