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June 24, 2020 77 mins

Dr. Seven Tomek is a neuroscientist who recently earned her PhD at Arizona State University. She talks with Valerie and Carly about her research on opioids and social behavior, how she became interested in a region of the brain called the insula, and why she prefers rat participants to human participants. Seven shares her underdog story of how she became a neuroscientist, and Valerie reports on how Seven’s Instagram page expanded her research assistants’ minds about what a neuroscientist can look like. Scott from the Gin Blossoms, Seven's friend, leaves a message for Carly and Valerie and they debate quitting their jobs to become roadies.

Read IFL Science's coverage of Seven’s work here: https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/rats-love-their-friends-more-than-sugar-but-less-than-heroin/
Follow her on Instagram @seventomek and Twitter @SevenTomek

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Valerie (00:00):
I'm Valerie Earnshaw.

Carly (00:09):
And I'm Carly Hill.

Valerie (00:10):
And this is Sex, Drugs and Science.
Today's conversation is withSeven Tomek, who recently earned
her PhD at Arizona StateUniversity.
So we're really excited to talkto you about, you know, all

(00:36):
things Seven essentially.

Seven (00:37):
Very cool.
There's this one time I did athing called vinyl voices where
I told a story, and then Iplayed a music, a song on vinyl.
And, um, I started it out.
I thought I was telling a joke,but no one thought it was funny.
So I started out by saying like,"Hey guys, I'm Seven.
I'm white trash," or somethinglike that.
And like, nobody laughed.
And then it got reallyuncomfortable for the whole rest
of the thing.
I was like,"Sorry.
Here's my song,".

Carly (00:59):
So do you want a redemption right now?
Like, do you want this to beyour redemption?
Would you like to do likeanother answer down just a one
liner right now?

Seven (01:06):
Yeah.
I, well, I was going to startout the same way.
Be like,"Hey, I'm Seven.
I'm white trash,".
So I don't really think I canredo it.

Carly (01:12):
Yeah.
Okay.
That's fair.
Yeah.

Seven (01:14):
Yeah.
I just don't learn my lesson.

Carly (01:15):
So there you go.
I like it.

Seven (01:17):
It's a tough road.
Hard.
It's hard to be me.

Valerie (01:19):
Well, you're also our first neuroscientist.
Given your diverse identitiesand so I, I'm both excited and
also like super nervous andintimidated to talk to you about
your science.
I was reading it this morningand I was like, how do we even,
have a degree in the same field.

(01:41):
It's like reading Greek.
I was like, I'm a psychologist,you're a psychologist.
And it's just, like, totallydifferent.
Yeah.

Seven (01:49):
I wrote it and I don't understand it either.
That's not true...I'm justkidding.

Valerie (01:54):
I think that you do.
Yeah, no, it's like, I have toread it like with like the
glossary, you know, like thedictionary open.
But anyway, I was like, I wastotally impressed doing our
Google, you know, Google Scholarbackground, because I was like,
when I left grad school, I hadlike one little baby paper, and
you have like a very full,robust CV.
And you just graduated.

(02:15):
I mean, you just defended yourPhD a couple of months ago.
So I was super impressed.

Seven (02:19):
Oh yeah, that's awesome.
I kept, I kept thinking if Ijust kept publishing and
publishing and publishing and itlet me leave, but they never
ever would let me leave so...

Valerie (02:29):
Well, I think that's the problem when you're too
good, and when you're toouseful, is that they try to keep
you forever.
So if you had been like me and alittle less good.
Like all right, you're ready togo.

Seven (02:40):
I've met you.
You're definitely very good.
So, yes.

Valerie (02:42):
Moderate, but yeah.

Seven (02:47):
No, I read a lot.

Valerie (02:48):
Yeah.
So, so I was trying to wrap myhead around some of, some of the
science pieces.
So, so starting with, it lookslike some of, you know, your,
your in the, in the earlierresearch that you were doing
within your lab suggests thatopioids change people's social
behavior, right?
So they change how peopleinteract with other people.

(03:10):
So I thought that we could askyou a little bit about that.
So, in what ways does, do doopioids change people's
interactions with other people?

Seven (03:19):
Well, when I was at UNCW and really working with the
human population, a lot ofpeople were struggling, um, to
restore relationships withfamily members, relationships
with friends.
Um, and it was one of the majorcomplaints in treatment.
And we just didn't have any wayto measure that in rats.
And so what I tried to do isfind a way to measure it in rats
so that we could make drugresearch, pre- clinically, more

(03:40):
translational to humans.
And that was my ultimate goal.
But the way I think it doeschange the behavior, aside from
just what I've noticed, or ifany of you..
Do either of, you know, anyopioid addicts firsthand?
And you can kind of see thechanges from if you knew them
before they used to now, likehow they're just not the same
person.
And some of those deficitsaren't permanent.

(04:01):
Research indicates that a lot ofthat recovers in six months,
three months depending, but someof these behaviors change
forever.
And it's kind of like what, whyfires together?
Wires together is like theneuroscience thing.

Valerie (04:14):
Okay.

Seven (04:14):
So I was trying to find a way to change it.
And there's a brain region thatI think is responsible and
implicated in this.
And that's what I really focusedon...
was, it's called the insula.
And it's the part of your brainthat makes you decide that you
want a sandwich or you're, it'scraving it's emotion.
There's a lot of emotionalattachment to it.

Valerie (04:36):
Okay.

Seven (04:36):
It's really been studied in taste aversion and like food
aversions and stuff, but it's ahuge part of drug addiction, but
it's also where your empathylies in your brain.
It's where your, your moodstates, your feelings.
So it's all really intertwined.

Carly (04:52):
So Seven when you're talking about some of the things
that, you know, you said likesome of the behaviors might go
away while you're in, you know,this, this act of using, and you
know, when you stop, some ofthese things come back in three
to six months.
What are some of the things, youknow, when you said that, um,
some of the, the socialbehaviors that don't come back?
What is it?
What are some of those things?

Seven (05:10):
Well, the behaviors that do come back, um, there's some
evidence that certain parts ofyour brain had to revascularize
a little bit, or they, they showin like, um, fr F F MRI studies
that they're shrunk.
Some of those regain theirnormal volume, some normal
functionality, but that's morebased on like physiological,
like looking at the brainregions.

(05:32):
As far as behaviors, I don'tknow if you guys are familiar
with a lot of stimulant studies,but there's actually evidence
that people that have beenrecovered for a really, really
long time still can't make wisecognitive choices.
And so that part of theirdecision making is flawed,
seemingly permanently, which ispretty, pretty crazy.
There's a task called theWisconsin Card Sorting Test, and

(05:57):
there's cards that are goodcards and bad cards, and it's
like risk and reward.
And they will keep picking thebad card, even if they know
better.
And they can tell you, like,this is not a good card, but
they can't stop themselves frommaking this choice.
And that's kind of, they try torelate that to making bad
choices in life, you know, likeyou just can't do it.
You can't make a good choice tosave your life.

Carly (06:19):
Yeah.
Interesting.

Valerie (06:20):
So when I was doing some of my background reading, I
mean, it looked like from what Iwas reading that drugs in
general, or, you know, opioidsspecifically, they impact the
brain in a way that makes usfeel euphoric and curbs pain.
But then in addition to doing it, it just seems like there are
these, these other actions, oradditional actions that are

(06:43):
happening on the brain thatmight affect both, you know,
behavior, but also other things.

Seven (06:48):
Right.
Well, and it kind of, so we havea very natural cycle in our
brain of survival of needingfood, needing sex, needing
water, needing all of thesethings.
And what opioids do is they kindof trick your brain into
thinking it's part of that loopof needing it to survive, that
reward feedback loop.
So when people really feel likethey will die, if they do not

(07:08):
get their, their drugs, theyreally feel like they will die.
I mean, it's part of that rewardfeedback loop.
So it's really rewires the brainin a very compelling way that's
hard to change.

Valerie (07:19):
I feel like there's so many different ways to study
opioids, to study addiction.
Why, what made you decide towant to study it with rats, or
to just study an animal animalmodels, or focus on the brain?

Seven (07:34):
Yeah, well, um, there are some really amazing, um,
clinical researchers that get todo like these huge clinical
studies, but they're usually,um, they have a ton of money.
They have a ton of accolades,um, and you can do all kinds of
research at all kinds ofuniversities, but it really
boils down to you're handing outsurveys.
And then you're trying toextrapolate all those

(07:54):
information from the survey.
And there's no human that willlet you drill into their brain
voluntarily, even though they'redoing really cool stuff in
Europe right now, but there aretwo different, I wrote a letter
to the lady, if she's letting mehelp her.
And she didn't write me backso...

Valerie (08:08):
Yet, wait until she hears this, we'll send it to
her.

Speaker 3 (08:12):
So I did it for my under or not for my master's
degree, I did a lot of humanresearch looking more at like
marijuana and other kind ofbehaviors, but it was just
surveys.
And it was hard to get thesurveys passed through IRB,
which blew my mind.
It was hard to do.

Valerie (08:29):
Yeah, we have, we always go to it's called full
board review.
So an IRB is like the ethicalgroup that we have to tell that
we're doing the study anddescribe it to them.
And then they can either sayyes, this study, the benefits of
this study outweigh the risks,or they might say, or they could
say no, the risks associatedwith this study don't.
And when you're working withfolks with substance use

(08:52):
disorders or experiencingaddiction, there's a lot of
concerns over the yeah...therisks that people associated
with those surveys.
So, we also survey a lot ofpeople, and interview a lot of
people and more typically go,you know, to the full board
meetings...
Which essentially means theythey're, they're worried that
it's more risky than, you know,than a lot of different type of

(09:15):
survey research, especially.
So, yeah.

Seven (09:18):
Right.
Well, and there's also aninteresting, so a lot of the
people that do opioid researchin humans, um, the way they have
to do it, because you can't bedrug naive...you have to have
had some experience with opioidsor it's unethical to give you
opioids.
And there's all these othercompounds that really make it
hard to kind of look atcausational relationships.
So they still do a lot of reallycool stuff with what they do,

(09:39):
but when you take a rat and Ihave control over every part of
its context of use.
I have control over everythingelse that's getting, you know,
its food, its water intake.
Then I can more clearly seewhat's happening with what I'm
trying to do.
B ut there's a lot of, I waslooking at clinical trials.
S o there's a brand new, fordepression, there's a brand new
ketamine inhalant that's mostlyhelp with short or depression,

(10:03):
but the depression has beentreatment resistant.
Like you can't just go getketamine to like, not be
depressed anymore.
You have to have try toeverything.
But what's crazy is when they dothese clinical trials, they take
people, put them on a brand newantidepressant that they've
never had along with theketamine.
And then say the ketamine is 30%more effective on treatment, but
it's...I have all these issueswith, well, what about the new

(10:24):
antidepressant you gave them?
And what if that was, or allthese other ones that they've
tried, that it's going to havesome longterm changes in their
brain?
Like, is this really effective?
It is an effective treatment,but t he way they do the
clinical trials, like if I couldjust do it on rats, I'd feel
better about.

Carly (10:40):
Right.

Seven (10:40):
And then I can pick their brains and see, you can, you can
like take the brains out oftheir skulls and look at them
under a microscope and see,

Valerie (10:47):
Okay, well, I love that you're highlighting this because
one of the things that I tell tomy, to my undergrads, when I
teach a research methods class,and it's in human
development/family sciences.
So they're very much doing, youknow, studies with humans and
like, studies with humans isreally hard.
It's risky, and it'schallenging, and there's a lot

(11:07):
of variables going on.
And so anyone who tells youthat, you know, studies with
humans is easy is wrong.
I mean, it's just, it can bereally challenging for a lot of
those reasons.

Seven (11:19):
You never do what they're told.
Actually, part of my...
Ever, ever.
Part of my master's work withmarijuana expectancy effects
amongst undergrads is I didn'twant, I didn't believe them.
So I had an implicit measure,and an explicit measure because
I'm like,"Okay, this I'm goingto compare the two to see if
y'all are lying," so...

Carly (11:34):
Yup.

Valerie (11:34):
And what did you find?

Seven (11:34):
There was like, it became more of a study of the implicit
measure than it did of theexpectancy effects.

Valerie (11:44):
Okay.

Seven (11:44):
Um, it was really, the implicit measures were able to
predict more behaviors than likethe IAT, which was really cool.
I don't know.
It gets into a whole other ballof wax, but...

Valerie (11:54):
Yeah, for sure.

Seven (11:56):
I did find that females use marijuana more to, uh,
distress and men use it more tohave a good time.

Valerie (12:01):
Okay.
Well ladies have a lot to bestressed about maybe.
So...

Seven (12:06):
The men that are trying to have a good time.
I know.

Valerie (12:08):
Full circle.
Yeah.
So, so you're in clinical psychthen, and then you decide, okay,
I want to, I want to go back andget a, more of a neuroscience
degree.

Seven (12:21):
Right.

Valerie (12:21):
Okay.

Seven (12:22):
Yeah.
Kind of checked all the boxesand it really made my
neuroscience research moretranslational because a lot of
people have no experience withhumans.

Valerie (12:31):
Oh, okay.

Seven (12:32):
Their entire career is looking at one single molecule
or one, like, dopamine cascade.
I feel like when you look atthat in a whole organism, it's
going to change.
You know, whereas if I kind oflook at things more as like a
whole organism of behavior.

Valerie (12:47):
Yeah.
No, that makes total sense.
Well, I was, um, I was spendinga good amount of time on IFL
science today, looking at yourlike references to your past
work.
And it was really cool.
Cause there was, there was theone article that it looked like
you had seen, right.
Describing this like paradigmwith how to look at social

(13:08):
behaviors with rats.
And then there was a secondarticle in which, you know, they
were talking about how you sawthat, thought,"Hey, let's add
opioids,", And then it wassummarizing what you found.

Seven (13:20):
Yeah.
But it was so cool.
I mean, that was actually thepinnacle of my excitement in
academia was that I f'ing lovescience was like, having my name
in one of their articles was socool.

Valerie (13:28):
No, that is so cool.
Yeah.
You could pretty much retirenow.
I mean...

Carly (13:32):
Yeah, I think...you've peaked.
W e're g ood.
Yeah.

Seven (13:36):
One of the things that my boss hated about me is I would
find articles about everythingand be like,"Let's add drugs,".
I mean, that was kind of my,like, I would send him text
messages of,"Oh, look at, lookat this.
This is what humans are doing.
Let's add drugs,".

Carly & Valerie (13:49):
Yeah.

Seven (13:49):
It got annoying after a while.
I'm sure.

Valerie (13:51):
Well, that's pretty much how I go through my life as
like a stigma researcher.
I'm like,"Oh, you know, overthere that's because of stigma,
and that's because of stigma,"and that, and then it just, it
really ends up being, uh, youknow, sad news bears lends to
life.
But I think that's how, youknow, when like you're excited
about something that you seewhen you see it everywhere and
you want to study it everywhere.

(14:12):
Like I think that's how you knowthat you're onto something.

Seven (14:15):
Yeah.
That's definitely true.
I actually, ever since I've metyou every time I see something
related, I was like I say,"That's stigma,".
I mean, I I've, I talk aboutlike the ideas that we had to
come up with for, you know,awareness and stuff.
So you're, you've been talkedabout amongst the Phoenix area.

Valerie (14:31):
Oh nice.
That's good.
When I come, they'll be readyfor me.

Seven (14:36):
I'll b e so r eady.

Valerie (14:38):
So in that first article, it looked like in the
first,"I f'ing love science"article.
It looked like the kind ofparadigm they were working with
was one rat in a tube...
I'm like nervous I'm going toget this wrong.
So there was one rat stuck in atube and then there's another
rat.
And that rat you train to getthe other, the stuck rat, Out.

(15:01):
Is that right?

Seven (15:02):
We don't even train it.
It just...

Valerie (15:03):
Oh it just...

Seven (15:04):
Yeah, like couldn't figure out the tube i s in
distress.
It just, it figures out how toget it out.
And it's crazy because it'll tryall these different things and
then eventually learn to flipthe door open.

Valerie (15:15):
Oh cool.
Okay.

Seven (15:17):
After they learn, they learn faster and faster every
day.
So some rats never learned somerats, never care.
Like they, I mean, I guessthere's a lot like humans, you
know, some, we all help eachother to a different degree.

Valerie (15:27):
Okay.

Seven (15:27):
But there's some really cool...so the woman who invented
this paradigm, she's atUniversity of Chicago...
And she found that a rat willsave a rat and knows versus one
that doesn't and one that lookslike them versus one that
doesn't.

Valerie (15:39):
Huh!

Seven (15:40):
This is really consistent with like bystander effect
and...

Valerie (15:43):
Yeah.

Seven (15:43):
Stuff.
And so the similarities are justbananas.
I don't know.
I think it's crazy.

Carly (15:48):
Wow.
Yeah.

Valerie (15:51):
That is bananas.
And then it, you know, if I'mfollowing the thread of the
science correctly, you didexactly what you just said.
You texted your boss, boss andyou're like,"Let's throw opioids
on this,".
Right?

Seven (16:01):
Yup.
But then we didn't have any ofthe equipment to do it
because...

Valerie (16:05):
Okay.

Seven (16:06):
So, uh, opioids are heroin.
I mean, that's usually what Iused...

Valerie (16:11):
What you used, mhm.

Seven (16:11):
But I, yeah, never personally, but the rest...

Valerie (16:14):
In the study...

Carly (16:14):
Right.

Seven (16:14):
They, u h, it's a very contextual drug.
So part of the reason we have alot of the knowledge that we
have is like in Vietnam era, abunch of that's the...
Tons of drugs overseas.
They came back, did way less andstill overdosed and people
trying to figure out why thiswas.
And it's very contextual.
So where you are, when you takethe drug, who you're with when

(16:36):
you take the drug, your bodystarts to have these, u m,
autonomic responses when youstart getting ready to take it.
So environment matters.
And if I had the r ats save in adifferent environment, they do
drugs and it could change the motivations.

Valerie (16:50):
Oh, okay.

Seven (16:51):
I called up my pops.
And I told my dad that he had tomodify all these med, PC boxes.
They're the operant boxes youput the rats in.

Valerie (16:59):
Oh, okay.

Seven (17:00):
And they cost like 80 grand for like 12 of them.
It's ridiculous.

Valerie (17:04):
Wow.

Seven (17:04):
And so my pops, my South Dakota pops, he extended them
all by like 40%, so that the ratcould self-administer drugs, and
save the rat in the sameenvironment.
And I'm pretty sure he stoppedanswering my phone calls after
we did this project because itwas, like, a ton of work.
And, but he made it possible.
So it was really cool.

Valerie (17:22):
Is he in the acknowledgement section of the
article?

Seven (17:27):
Mhm.

Valerie (17:27):
Yup, that's amazing.

Seven (17:27):
He's unbelievable because when I was thinking of ways to
do it, I'm like, well, let's putlike foil right here.
I mean, it's just stupid stuff,but he made it really legit, you
know?
So it was cool.

Valerie (17:36):
That's awesome.
What's his background that hewas prepared to modify rat
experiment boxes for you?

Seven (17:42):
He's like, he's like, this is gonna sound really,
especially South Dakota of me,but he's a gunsmith, but he's
like a genius.

Valerie (17:50):
Okay.

Seven (17:50):
Mostly he's just this crazy old bearded man in the
woods that builds shit.

Valerie (17:54):
You said he gave you your name, right?

Seven (17:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Valerie (17:58):
He gave you Seven?

Seven (17:59):
He's the hippie part of the hippie Catholic phenomenon
that is me.
So...

Valerie (18:02):
Amazing.
Y eah.
Okay.
So then, s o, so if I'mfollowing the thread, then it's,
you, you are able to have therat self-administer h eroin in
the box w ith t he, with theother r at that's in the t ube.
So how are they selfadministering heroin?
What does that look like?

Seven (18:21):
Yeah.
Well, first they, they, we dolike baseline saving.
So they rescue the rat every dayfor like two weeks.

Valerie (18:26):
Okay.

Seven (18:27):
So now we can see if they'll do it, how long it takes
them to do it.

Valerie (18:31):
Okay.

Seven (18:31):
Then they self-administer heroin for two weeks.
So they get a little port thatwe surgically put in their inner
skin...

Valerie (18:37):
Okay.

Seven (18:37):
It goes subcutaneously to their jugular vein.
So I put a catheter in thejugular vein, and they nose
poke.
And the nose poke is like ainfrared beam.
And when their nose breaks thebeam, they get an infusion of
heroin and heroin and they loveit.
So don't be sad for them.
They have the best time of theirlives.

(18:58):
They get better medical carethan most humans I know.

Valerie (19:00):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
They have the best time.
They party hard.
And then after they're dependenton heroin, which is like a
threshold of pressing, or nosepoking, some people have levers,
we have nose pokes.
They, um, then I put them backin the chamber with their friend
and with hooked up the heroin,and then they have an hour to
save their friend again.
So either thee save theirfriend, cause they can do both.

(19:23):
They don't have to pick, theycould get some heroin and then
open the door or they could, youknow, but they just, most of
them don't, they don't...
In the first study, none of themsaved their friend.
It was just, they'd rather justhang out and do drugs, and look
at them.

Valerie (19:39):
So their little friend is distressed in the tube next
to them, and they're nose pokingon the, on the red infrared.
Okay.
Got it.
That's pretty striking that,overall.
Cause it sounds like this islike a really well used
paradigm, and that these, youknow, under standard conditions,
the rats go save their littlefriends.
I was reading somewhere.
I don't know if this is true,but they were like,"Rats are

(20:00):
even more helpful than humans,"and that's true.
But there, yeah, it was, it justseemed remarking remarkable that
they could like figure out howto do it and then be super
motivated to find their friends,and then to add heroin to the
mix.
And they're just hanging out,not saving their friends.
Yeah.
Okay.

Seven (20:18):
So Peggy Mason found out, she's the one who invented the
paradigm.
She wasn't able to, um, letanimals self-administer, but she
passively gave animals, drugs,which is just giving them an
injection.
So she gave him an injection ofa beta blocker and they still
saved their friends.
And then she gave rats, ananxiolytic, I don't know which
one it was.
But they stopped saving theirfriends, but would still open

(20:40):
the door for chocolate.
So they wouldn't open the doorfor a conspecific, but would for
a treat.

Valerie (20:46):
So what's an angiolytic?

Seven (20:49):
An anxiety medication.

Valerie (20:50):
Oh, okay!

Seven (20:52):
So beta blockers...
still safe anxiety meds.
You're on your own.
I'll still get a treat.

Valerie (20:58):
Okay.

Seven (20:59):
And you think about how many people, I mean, obviously
this isn't a direct translationcause there's a lot of work to
be done.

Valerie (21:04):
Sure.

Seven (21:04):
But aside from the individuals, you know, opioid
users that we're talking about,but how many people are on
antianxiety medications, youknow what I mean?
It's like,

Valerie (21:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
So when you, I mean, youprobably had hypothesized that
this could be the case, right?

Seven (21:19):
Yeah.

Valerie (21:20):
But were you surprised that on your first study, like
zero of the r ats helped theirfriends?
That's really striking.

Seven (21:27):
Well, and especially because there's kind of like
mixed results with Peggy Masonstuff...

Valerie (21:32):
Okay.

Seven (21:32):
But heroin is obviously a lot more reinforcing and
rewarding than, u h, antianxietymedication or...On beta
blockers, they're good once in awhile but...

Valerie (21:41):
Yeah.

Seven (21:41):
Not very rewarding.

Valerie (21:44):
Yeah.

Seven (21:45):
Long game, but yeah.
It's um, it's pretty crazy, butheroin is powerful.

Valerie (21:51):
Yeah.
Okay.
So then it looked like you wereinterested in trying to reverse
it.
Right?
So how did you start thinkingabout how can we turn around
these effects?

Seven (22:04):
Well, there's a researcher out of Columbia named
Nasir Naqvi.
Have you guys ever heard of him?
So he, I don't even think he'sin....
I think he's a neurologist.
I don't even know that he's aneuroscientist.

Valerie (22:15):
Okay.

Seven (22:15):
He was working with human patients.
And a lot of individuals thathad strokes in their insula were
no longer addicted to nicotine.
Like just immediately, nolonger, no cravings.
Wasn't hard to quit.
Didn't have any side effects.
And so he saw this correlationand he started to publish meta
analysis on it.
And then that kind of took on alife.

(22:38):
Other people started testingthis theory.
And so when I started readinghis papers because the insula is
not really studied in addiction,it's, there's like a bit of
pathway for the last 40 yearsthat people have just been
beating to death.
And obviously we haven't curedaddiction yet.
So probably not exactly justthat pathway, you know?

Valerie (22:55):
Right.

Seven (22:55):
So I was really interested in the insula.

Valerie (22:58):
O kay.

Seven (22:58):
For me, for it to be involved in drug use, and
involved in social emotionalbehavior, it almost felt like I
was making it up because...

Valerie (23:06):
It could be too good.
Yeah.

Seven (23:08):
There's no such place.

Valerie (23:09):
Right.

Seven (23:10):
So that was exciting.
So once this region becameobvious that it was implicated
in both things, I was trying toconverge, that was the one so...

Valerie (23:19):
Great!

Seven (23:20):
Now to do some dreads.

Valerie (23:22):
Yeah.
So what is that?
What, cause when I was readingabout it, I saw kind of a
genetic activation of this partof the brain.
So what is that?
The dreads part?

Seven (23:33):
Yeah.
So dreads, this is cool.
I've actually been instructed to s ay, c all it voodo magic,
and I'm not allowed to call itthat anymore, but I am done with
school.
These people don't have anypower over me.

Carly (23:41):
Yeah!

Valerie (23:41):
Okay.

Seven (23:46):
It's a...we take a virus.
In this case, we took, an AAV,which is, uh, a human
adeno-associated virus.
And on this virus, we pack allkinds of things.
We pack a mutant receptor thatdoesn't react to anything else
in the body.
So there's nothing in your brainthat could make this receptor
fire.
Um, we put a promoter on thisvirus so that this, mutant

(24:07):
receptor goes into the righttype of cell.
And then we put a fluorescence,so that you can see it in a
microscope after we chop up thebrain.
And so I injected this directlyinto the insula on both sides of
the rat and I use an atlas to,for brain regions and stuff.
And they heal up, it takes abouttwo weeks for the virus to
express in the brain.
And then when I give them aninjection of CNO, then all of

(24:29):
the neurons will burst fire, andthey reconnect.
So it's basically, you can useit, you can inhibit neurons if
you use a different type ofvirus, not a virus, but sorry, a
promoter, like there's differenttypes of mutant receptors.
There's inhibitory, there'sexcitatory.
So I use an excitatory one, andit worked.
So it was very cool.

Valerie (24:48):
So, so you're kind of like turning on parts of his
brain part, you know, parts ofthe brain that when we looked at
them in FMI studies, which iskind of like taking a scan of
the brain, those were kind ofturned off before.

Seven (25:01):
Right.
And they were...

Valerie (25:01):
Kind of.

Seven (25:02):
I mean, I, I didn't look at cell death.
So in fact, I've talked aboutthis in a conference and I say,
well, when that, when that partof the brain is damaged due to
drugs, then a lot of puristswill be like,"Well, did you look
and see if it was damaged?
Do you know?".

Valerie (25:15):
Okay.

Seven (25:15):
And I did not look at cell death or, or cytokines or
anything like that.
So t o tell you that they weredead, but they stopped the
behavior.
And then once they were burstfiring, the behavior for the
most part resumed, not to fulllevels, but way more than
control.
So it was still really exciting.

Valerie (25:33):
So the behavior...
You're, you inject this into thebrain, things start firing and
then they start saving theirfriends again.
That is pretty amazing.

Seven (25:42):
Yeah.
And it also really led...
Cause a lot of people arespeculating that the insula is
not really part of the addictionpathway or not that important in
these processes.
A lot of people say that this,this isn't a true measure of
prosocial behavior, empathy inrats.
And it's kind of like, well, ifwe're looking at just A plus B
equals C, something's happening,that's reversible.
So I don't know.

(26:02):
I felt pretty good about it.

Valerie (26:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
That's amazing that there's somuch debate in the field, like
that there's so much that wedon't know like that, that is
really interesting.
Cause like I study stigma,right.
And I feel like almost all mypapers are...
People experience morediscrimination.
They're treated worse by otherpeople, that makes them

(26:25):
depressed and then they eitherdon't take their medications, or
they use more substances or, youknow, they, they feel some sort
of bad or have some sort of badhealth outcomes.
So it's like, it's really notlike super debatable.
So it's really interesting thatyou're in this field where
there's a lot of debate andspeculation and it's really kind
of like unsettled.

Seven (26:44):
It's so open to interpretation.
I mean, even when I firststarted talking about this and
using the word empathy andpeople got hung up on the word
"empathy", so I would start outtalks by saying, asking the
audience what they thoughtempathy meant.
And whatever they all said.
I'm like,"Yes, you're allcorrect.
Now let's move on from that.
Like I don't care.
It's not the point for me.
The point is that we'remeasuring this behavior,"...

Valerie (27:04):
Okay,

(27:04):
...empathetic.
However you want to call it,because there's huge papers just
written on the beginnings ofempathy and what it really
means.
And like looking at, you know,primate studies and stuff.
And to me it was just, a wordthat sums up helping somebody
that's in distress or like,cause emotional contagion is
really what it is in animals.

Valerie (27:23):
Ah, okay.
That's interesting.
H mm.
So how can you, how would youthink about translating this to
humans?

Seven (27:33):
Yeah.

Valerie (27:33):
What would that all look like?

(27:35):
Well, there's um, initially I was thinking like kind of
targeted medications, like if wecould...

Valerie (27:39):
Okay.

(27:40):
The insula is really involved in, like I said, taste aversion
and stuff.
That's really what it's beenstudied.
And so I was even thinking likeif I was going to go back and do
more projects, which I don'teven know if I'm allowed back
there anymore...but if I had togo back, it would be like maybe
using like anti-nauseamedications or different things.
And seeing if that changes anyof the behaviors, or restores
any of these behaviors insteadof the burst firing type of

(28:02):
stuff.

Valerie (28:03):
Okay.

(28:03):
And then maybe try it in humans with like, you know,
pretests on empathy andprosocial after they've been in
recovery as part of theirtreatment or something.
And then try some of these, youknow, anti-nausea medications or
stuff with taste aversion, andsee if that changes their
ratings...
Would be interesting.
But there's a person in, Imentioned her in passing, in

(28:25):
Europe who has all these studiesin Europe and Asia, where
they're actually putting amicrochip in the nucleus
accumbens, which is the big partof dopamine and addiction
research.
And it's kind of acting likethat remote, you know, for
changing...
It's like deep brainstimulation, but it's portable,
and it doesn't have to be hookedup to a machine and it costs

(28:45):
like a hundred thousand dollarsto do it.
But they're getting participantsfinally to try it for all kinds
of...
Parkinson's, or addiction.
That would be really cool to doit in the insula.
I actually wrote to her and Isaid,"I'd modulate the
insula...it's there,".
And like I said, she never wroteme back...

Carly (29:03):
Yet.

Valerie (29:03):
Yet.

(29:03):
But that would be really cool...
To actually try to modulate in ahuman, for the purposes of what
I'm trying to do with addiction.
Because based on a ll the strokestuff, like I still think that
if the insulin is completelytaken out or like destroyed
that...they won't be addicted,so...

Valerie (29:19):
Okay.

Seven (29:19):
And I tried to do this with lesions, but my first set
of lesions went too far past andother ones are too small.

Valerie (29:26):
O kay.

(29:26):
N ow it takes about six or seven months t o study.
And after the second one, mycommittee was just like,"Okay,
you can tap out, you're fine,".
Do something else.
Yeah.

Valerie (29:36):
Or, or you can wrap it up with the data that you have,
you mean?

(29:40):
Yeah.
Well it, I was really okay withthe first data, but they wanted
me to redo it.
And then the second data was incomplete opposite of the first
data...

Valerie (29:51):
Oh wow.

(29:52):
But the lesions were way, way smaller.
Some of them, I couldn't evensee them on the microscope.
Like I had to have people whoare way better on the scope,
come look.

Valerie (29:58):
Okay.

(29:58):
So, but I'll still, it's still consistent with the literature
because if the insula isdestroyed, they're no longer
addicted, but people withsmaller insula or with lesioned
insula have addiction problemsand depression problems.
And so it still fits.

Valerie (30:13):
So if I'm getting this right, so this was your
dissertation project.

(30:17):
Yeah.

Valerie (30:17):
And you were, you were putting lesions in the, in the
rat's brains.
And then looking to see how thatwould affect addiction?

Seven (30:28):
Both saving and they're pressing.
So I use the same paradigm...

Valerie (30:32):
Oh, okay.

(30:32):
...quinolinic acid into the insula.

Valerie (30:36):
Okay.

(30:36):
Just to, all it does is cause cell death in that region.

Valerie (30:39):
Got it.

(30:40):
But it was...
My first acid ones went too farpast the insula, and they
reduced their, they slowed down,they still use ultimately the
same amount, but they sloweddown their intake compared to
controls and no difference insaving.
But that makes sense, causethere's a floor effect with
heroin, right?
Like, if you're already notgoing to save with heroin, if
you don't have pro socialcenter, you're probably not

(31:01):
continuing not to save kind ofthing.

Valerie (31:03):
Okay.
Yeah.

(31:03):
I didn't want them to be using drugs anymore.
So, so they use less, at a lessrate.
But then when I did it again,and made the lesions too small
where they didn't take out thewhole insula, they actually
increased their intake.

Valerie (31:16):
Okay.
Interesting.

(31:19):
But it was a huge mess.
I mean, it's not, it's so much,like there's a couple of rats
that use a ton.
It was like, it's just not evenuseful.
It was just, it was two years'worth of work for nothing.

Valerie (31:31):
Well that's...yeah.
That's science, right?
Yeah.

Seven (31:37):
No.

Valerie (31:38):
So, okay.
So you've wrapped up the PhD.
What's next for Seven?

Seven (31:44):
I'm trying to find a job in the worst market in the
world.

Valerie (31:47):
A nd it's j ust the worst market in the world.

Carly (31:51):
It couldn't be worse!

(31:51):
Bad timing.

Valerie (31:51):
Yeah.

(31:52):
So Home Depot is like, really cool.
I might go work there, and justwrite"Doc" on my apron.

Valerie (31:57):
Well, if you do go work at Home Depot, you're going to
be able to construct the coolestrat boxes for your experiments
ever.

Carly (32:05):
Yeah!

(32:05):
When people come in for just garden parts, I'll be like,
"Let's talk about the studyyou're going to do with it,".

Valerie (32:09):
Yes!

(32:11):
I have an idea.
Let's do it.

Valerie (32:13):
Well, okay.
So we met at this training,Innovation Impact, and it was
sort of designed to...
Hopefully none of them arelistening to me, butcher, you
know, the description...
But it was sort of designed totake folks who were doing
research in these traditionalacademic centers, and to push
them into thinking about likedoing, taking different routes.
So, you know, joining startupsor, or, small businesses and

(32:36):
doing, you know, research inthese different settings.
So has that inspired you to sortof like think differently, or to
think broadly about whatdirection you want your research
to go, or your career to go?

Seven (32:46):
Well, what I really want to do is...
Have you, are you familiar withthe Medical Science Liaison?

Valerie (32:51):
A little bit, but tell us more.

Seven (32:54):
That's, I kind of feel like with all my little...
Okay, when I was trying to workin clinical, when I was seeing
patients, I realized that Iwasn't going to make a global
impact.
So then I'm like,"Well maybeI'll go pre-clinically and I can
make a more global impact,".
And that was also not true.
So, and then I did the Yalething and it's like, I have all
these little pieces.
Well, an MSL is somebody who,they're called key opinion

(33:16):
leaders or thought leaders.
And so you have a region, andyou talk to all the researchers,
doctors, clinicians,practitioners, everybody,
policymakers, and you kind of,um, synthesize this information
and take it back to pharma.
So that they can come up with anew molecule, or a new
direction, or make sure that themedications that are
representing are being utilizedhow they're supposed to be.

(33:40):
And so this is, I've been tryinglike crazy to get an MSL job.
Because most academics, the,they actually, most of them hate
my guts because we'll go toconferences, and in a nice
way...And we'll go toconferences and there'll be
somebody that they're really,really impressed with.
And they'll talk to them aboutthe one molecule they study, for
example, and I will be talkingto them about Alice Cooper, and

(34:02):
like this movie, or thisadventure or whatever.
And then I ended up getting joboffers for postdocs or whatever,
because I'm a social being,whereas a lot of people in
academia just really aren't.
And so the MSL role is reallydesigned around being like,
cultivating relationships andmaintaining them and talking
about science.
And those are my favoritethings.

Valerie (34:19):
Yeah.
You would definitely rock a jobat the intersection of all of
those things.
I'm sure.

(34:27):
I hoping it's really, really good.

Valerie (34:27):
That's another good reason to get out of academia.
Yeah.

Seven (34:31):
Like stupid.
Like it would be like, I wouldgo from welfare to well.

Valerie (34:35):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Well, anything in the, in thepharmaceutical company or in the
pharmaceutical world.
Well, it's interesting too,cause I think like in academia,
there's this idea that there'slike...you're a good researcher
if you're like in academia andthen you're, it's like, it's
bad.
It's for, you're like going tothe dark side, if you go into
industry or if you go intopharmaceuticals or something.

(34:57):
And like I've never, totally nottotally understand that.
Maybe it's because like my bodyis dependent on pharmaceuticals
to stay alive?
I take some pretty heavy like,medications to, to be well.
And so I'm like super gratefulto the pharmaceuticals for, for
that.
But I mean, I do having abackground in the opioid

(35:17):
epidemic, I also understand sortof the bad things that happen
within pharmaceuticals, but...

Seven (35:23):
Well, and that's one of the things too, like...I would
never be involved with sales orthere's, there's this, this rule
book called The Pharma Code...
Of even, for example, if there'sa drug that, it's on like the
prescription for what it does,but then, you know, based on all
these studies that you've read,that it also reduces craving.
You can't even tell thepractitioner that you know it
reduces craving.

(35:43):
Like they have to bring it upand then you can talk about it,
but you can't even mention itbecause the rules are so strict.
Which is, I mean, it just showsthat it's not like a shady"Come
take our drugs.
We promise you the world," kindof thing.

Valerie (35:55):
Right.

(35:55):
It's very, super regulated where you could go to jail.
If you say the wrong thing.
It's...

Valerie (36:02):
Okay.

(36:02):
Pretty crazy.

Valerie (36:02):
That is crazy, yeah.

(36:03):
I want this job so bad.

Valerie (36:04):
Well let's, yeah.
Let's get you there.
But...
So well, speaking of AliceCooper, we did a deep dive on
lots of your social mediathreads.
And we saw this picture of youshowing a brain to Alice Cooper.
Right?
Can you tell us everything aboutthis photo?

(36:25):
Where were you?
What was the makeup on your faceabout?
What was the brain about?

Seven (36:30):
Yeah, I tried so hard.
My vanity tried so hard not tomake that happen.
Like Patrick...

Valerie (36:36):
No, I think you look good.

(36:36):
...from Seinfeld was there, and the picture of me and
Patrick Warburton, I looked likethe biggest dumb ass cause I got
this...
It was, I was so, but so...

Valerie (36:43):
It was perfect.
It was what you had to wear towhatever this event was, which
hopefully we'll hear about.
Yeah.

Seven (36:48):
Well, s o in our lab we have a human brain in a
refrigerator and this, well wehave a few, but this woman was a
woman who died in her forties ofalcoholism, so...

Valerie (36:56):
Wait, hold on.
I thought you were going to tellme that this was a fake brain in
the...
This is like a real, this is areal person?
Okay.
I thought it was like one ofthose like foam brains.

Seven (37:06):
No, it was real.
B ut I would tell them, I wouldtell, like for example, Robby
Krieger from The Doors, and likethe best guitarist in the
history of our gen...
of our mankind...

(37:14):
Yeah.
...
looking at it.
And he, I told him"It's a realbrain," and he's like,"Okay,",
and he holds it and he's like,"This feels real,".
And I'm like,"I just told ya,".
And he was like...
And I was like,"No, it's real,".

Carly (37:25):
How, how did that situation, though?
I need like, how...

Valerie (37:29):
Yeah, so like did you take the brain...

Carly (37:32):
In what world did that happen?

Valerie (37:32):
Did you take the brain to like a concert, or like an
event?
You're like,"All right, AliceCooper is in town.
Let me get my...
brain..."?

Carly (37:36):
Is that like, you're like,"Let me get my phone, keys,
wallet, brain," like...

Valerie (37:43):
"I've got my makeup done.
I've got my brain,"...

(37:43):
I've done some pretty weird shit with that brain.
But no, this actually wasn'teven the weirdest.
Well, so one of my really goodfriends is Alice Cooper's
photographer.
Like photographs, his family andhis kids and his wife.
And like all of his likestraight jacket stuff for School
of Rock.

Valerie (37:58):
Okay.

(37:58):
And so he was doing this event, and it had a theme.
And so she wanted me to comedress as like a mad scientist.
And I mentioned the brand and hewas like,"Yes, bring the
brain,".
But up where they were doingthe, cause it was like a
fundraiser.
He has like this celebritytournament.
Up where he was doing photoswith everyone, with all of his
rockstar friends.
So people sit in line to getphotos with him.

(38:18):
And so I was hanging out by himwith the brain, and then some
people would come over and Iwould teach them about addiction
in the brain.
And so, I got to hang out withall the rock stars.
It was really cool, but I have,because all my friends are rock
stars.
Like my closest friends have thecraziest connections.
When I think about like, I'm onedegree of separation from all
these people I idolize.
It like blows my mind.
Like I'm gonna see if I can findit.

(38:39):
My, my friend Rachael is withlike Johnny Depp in this one
picture.
And I'm saying,"Okay,".

Carly (38:43):
So I'm hearing that I'm now two degrees of separation
from all...
I significantly, by having thisconversation right now, I have
really cut down my degrees ofseparation.

(38:52):
We're closer than Kevin Bacon.
This is a big deal.

Seven (38:57):
But, uh, I, it was, it was super fun because I'm a huge
music fan, audio file.
The lead singer of CheapTrick...

Carly (39:04):
Y eah.

(39:04):
So he was in a band.
I didn't recognize him, but Itold him, c ause I l oved the
music, but I just never knewwhat the lead singer looked
like.
And so I went up to him and I'mlike,"I know you're in a band.
I just, I'm not sure whichband,".
And he's like,"Oh, CheapTrick,".
H e w as like,"I w ant y ou to...".
He started singing it.
And I was like,"Oh, good job o nbeing good at music," And he's
like,"Good job at being good atscience.
And I was like,"Okay, we'refriends now,".

Valerie (39:23):
That's amazing.

(39:24):
That was really fun.

Carly (39:24):
Yeah.
I don't mean to brag, but I didmake Pete Townshend laugh once.
So I mean, I got that going forme.
So you're now officially onedegree of separation.
Yeah, no, like, it's all myresume already.
It's it's why Valerie hired me.

(39:38):
How'd you meet Pete Townshend?

Carly (39:40):
Went to his book signing and made him laugh.
Yeah, it was, it was like acool, it was like a fan club
thing.
One of my dad's friends was ahooligan, and got us into this
private thing he did at theMuseum of Anthropology at
Philadelphia one night.
And he played a private set forus, like just him on his guitar.
And then, so I know his stuff.
Yeah.
I was like, number one though.

(40:00):
And I, I made him laugh and Ididn't see a whole lot of other
people make them laugh.
Pete Townshend's not a funnyguy, you know?
So...

Seven (40:05):
Yeah, well done.

Carly (40:07):
Thank you.

Valerie (40:09):
Did you finger gun him?

Carly (40:11):
You know what, Valerie, I probably did.
I probably really did.

Valerie (40:14):
Probably did.

Carly (40:14):
Yeah.
With the finger guns, yup.

Valerie (40:16):
One of Carly's...
I don't know what I would callit, best stories...

Carly (40:21):
So the first time now I'll, I'll make it quick, the, I
was like a, I was the underdog.
I came back to school like afterreally I essentially...
Flunking out and like Valeriewas kind enough to take a shot,
you know, with me being like the, my GPA, like might not have
even been one.
Anyway, she, has me in and I,you know, am lucky to be

(40:43):
involved with this like StigmaLab, which is so cool.
And like, she's doing all thecoolest things on campus.
So I go into another professor'soffice hours and I see Valerie
there, Doctor Earnshaw at thetime, who is in this, you know,
this other professor's office.
And I wasn't expecting to seeher at all.
And I'm not the most un-awkwardperson in the world.
So I see Valerie, the person whohas just hired me for like the

(41:05):
greatest opportunity of mylife...
And what do I say to her?
I see her in the office.
So I'm like,"Hey friend," and Igive her finger guns and was
just like,"Why are you this way?
Why are you this way?".
My second impression on Valeriewas that I said,"Hey friend,"
and shot her the finger guns.
So...

(41:21):
That's probably when you clinched it, right there.

Carly (41:22):
Probably.

Valerie (41:22):
That was...
Yeah.
Now I'm like,"Let's make apodcast in three years.
Let's do this,".

(41:30):
She saw your whole future flash before her eyes.

Valerie (41:33):
Yes.
Absolutely.

Carly (41:33):
It was with the finger guns.

Valerie (41:34):
Yeah, it was w ith, w hen I was finger gunned.
Well, that's interesting.
So Carly identifies a little bitof an underdog.
I think o f y ou Seven as alittle bit of an underdog for
academic settings.
I mean, do you think of yourselfthat way also?
Or...

Seven (41:48):
Fully.
So I'm a single mom...a brokesingle mom of two kids.
Two, well, one's a kid and one'sa wild animal.
I don't know how I'm gonnasurvive this quarantine.
My son's four and his name isBear, which...

Valerie (42:01):
Yeah.

(42:02):
...didn't really think the long one on that one, cause he's
a wild animal.
But I started community collegeat 25.
I don't remember even showing upto high school, but I know I
graduated with like,pre-algebra.
So my, my eighth grader is nowin like calculus or something,
you know, it's just, that's howbelow...
I mean, I think they finallyjust to get rid of me for high

(42:23):
school, was like"Just takepre-algebra in summer and then
you can go,"

Valerie (42:26):
Okay.

(42:27):
I was, challenged.

Valerie (42:29):
You're like,"And launched,".

Carly (42:32):
Yeah.

Valerie (42:32):
Why were you not into school?

(42:33):
W hat's t hat?

Valerie (42:33):
Where you just not into it?
Were you...

(42:36):
Yeah, it was just not a culture in my family.
Like, a lot of kids were likelooking to go to colleges.
I was working at Taco John's,you know, and I'm like,"I'm
good, got a job, got a car...".

Valerie (42:47):
Got this pre-calc, or this pre-algebra under my belt,
so...

(42:50):
Yeah, I'm set for life.
And i t actually, so mydaughter's father is an opioid
addict.
He's been incarcerated a bunchhe's been, but he's a trust fund
opioid addict, which is the bestkind.
Because they c ould just keepcoming back.

Valerie (43:05):
Okay.

(43:06):
So I was in a custody battle and he's actually the last
couple of years has been okay,but it's kind of cyclical.

Valerie (43:12):
Sure.

(43:12):
So we were in a custody battle, I didn't have
electricity for months during myundergrad.
And I'm sitting on the ground ina parking lot, waiting for this
court ordered family courtpsychologist to show up and she
pulls up in a vintage Jaguar.
It was like forest green.
And she gets out of the car andshe's weari ng like 1500 dollar
shoes that I knew they wereexpensive.
Cause I watch Sex in the Cityall the time.
And I was like,"Whoa, what am Idoing?".

(43:37):
But part of it was too that atthe, at the time I was either
going to be a psychologist, orgo into family law.
And then I figured if the statepaid for my education, it was
like tricking them into payingmy attorney's fees.
So it was this very long,hardworking revenge plan.

Valerie (43:50):
Okay.

Carly (43:51):
But that is brilliant though.
It is!

Valerie (43:55):
Wait, so that was college years.
So you were in communitycollege, but you got your degree
from ASU, ASU, right?

(44:01):
Right.
So...

Valerie (44:01):
Okay, so you transferred over...

(44:01):
And my French professor, I actually, she came to my, like
PhD party and I guess lectureher course every like twice a
semester.
A nd so my first ever psychprofessor is still a million
years later.
Like in my corner, it was likecommunity college was the best
thing I ever did.
And then I turned out to bereally good at school because I
was really obnoxious.

(44:22):
So like my lowest score was like112% and I would argue it up l
ike t he o ne.
..

Valerie (44:27):
Okay.

(44:27):
So I was obnoxious.

Valerie (44:28):
So what was it about, so was it, you landed in this
psych class and you really, youloved it?
Is that, is that how you likewent down this psychology tunnel
or, or what was it about thatexperience?

Seven (44:43):
I think a lot of it is just how my brain works, where
it didn't seem overly...
I mean, until I got into likethe molecular bio classes at the
PhD level with no biologyhistory, that I realized that
maybe I made a terrible mistake.
But a lot of it was prettyintuitive.
And I started to feel,especially because you know,
that whole white trash dragon onmy back is that I was getting a
lot of accolades and kind of, Iwas trying to make my identity

(45:06):
more academically successfulthan broke single mom with two
kids kind of thing.
So a lot of it was perception,formation, and just trying to be
, um, change my stars a littlebit so, and not be broke, which
I took the really long game andthat, because, uh, one of my
good friends just became a PA.

Valerie (45:24):
Wow.
Yeah.

(45:25):
So she went to, she got her undergrad degree and then she
did a year of classwork and thena year of clinicals and then she
was making six figures.
And then I still had like, watchme go to school for more and be
miserable.
And this is awesome and I makegood choices.

Valerie (45:41):
Yeah.
I remember I was, I grad...
I graduated at the same time asmy best friend from college.
We were roommates.
She's amazing.
And she started going, workingin retail and um, so at some
point in graduate school, likeshe moved into Philly, she moved
into this like gorgeous highrise apartment, like looking
over the art museum.

(46:02):
And I was like,"I think, maybe Itook the wrong direction,".

(46:06):
Right.

Valerie (46:06):
Yeah.
It's definitely not.
Yeah.
It's definitely not thedirection to go for, you know,
fame and money.
But I feel like you don't knowthat when you're an undergrad,
you don't know.
I mean, it's so much education.
And I think that there's alsothis thing that, people like
affluent people go into it.
Right?
Like wealthy people go into it,wealthy people get their

(46:28):
PhDs,and then t hey, they havelike this family money.
And then, s o it just kind ofperpetuates t his like,"Oh,
academics have all this,".
Yeah.

(46:37):
Yeah.
They don't know how to be broke.
That's for sure.
I'm like Artful Dodger.
I'm so good at being broke atthis point that I still do.
I mean, well, the seveneconomics that I alluded to,
it's kind of...I can justify anypoor spending behavior because
I'm broke before and brokeafter.
So at least I'm going to bebroke with the experience.
And so I just, I just do mything and it all works out one

(46:57):
way or another.
So...

Carly (46:58):
That's how I justify traveling too.
I'm like,"Look, I'm going to bebroke either way.
But like one of these situationsleave me broke with
experiences," So...

Valerie (47:08):
Yeah.
Broke in Thailand.

Carly (47:09):
Yeah.
Right.
Exactly.

(47:11):
I spent a month in Israel with no plan and no money.
Well, also Italy.
And then I like slept in trainstations a nd on bridges and,
but it was amazing.
And I had the best time.
I just, I got buddy passed therec ause I used to be a pilot or
okay.
That's an exaggeration.
I was getting my p ilot'slicense.

Valerie (47:28):
Okay.

(47:28):
And so I got my 30 hours up until, like, you're supposed to
do your solo flight at thispoint.
A nd I was like,"No, I'm notthat good at this.
I'm not going to d o i t bymyself,".
So my flight instructor at thetime went on to become a
commercial pilot.
And so he buddy passed me to allthese different, weirdly, only
"I" countries like Italy,Ireland, and Israel, not on

(47:48):
purpose.
But y es, I went there with no,literally no money, and just
made it work.
And it was awesome.

Carly (47:56):
That's awesome.

Valerie (47:57):
That is awesome.

(48:00):
So fun.

Valerie (48:00):
So, so yeah, I mean, you definitely feel like you
break the mold or at least theperceived mold for, so for
academics.
So when you, um, did you feellike there's like space for you
when you got to grad school orwhen you, you know, in your
master's program and your PhD?
Like, did you feel like you fitin, in those spaces with your

(48:20):
background or did you feeldifferent in any way?

(48:24):
I mean, I'm the type of person who kind of just meshes in any
scenario.
I'm very adaptable, but any sortof incongruencies weren't really
my background, was more than Iwas a decade older than
everybody.

Valerie (48:35):
Oh, okay.

(48:35):
When I watched people acting like you're a decade, especially
as a mom and I was like,"No!".

Valerie (48:41):
Yeah.

(48:42):
Or, I mean, I lived far from campus, cause I bought my house
before I even ever startedschool.
And so I commuted far and I'dhave to commute a lot.
Like when I'm running six hourheroin sessions, it's like, I go
put the heroin ruts in and thenget my kids ready for school and
then go get the commute back andforth or sleep in the parking
garage or whatever you gotta do.
And it's like, um, I just kindaran in my own orbit.
And so some of my friends areactually more of the more

(49:06):
faculty, older people in my agedemographic really than my peers
, just cause I gotta get thekids to school.
And like I actually had a partyonce, invited people to my
house.
Well, no, I went to first topreface this...
I went to a party at someone'shouse and they were having a
Harry Potter party, which isreally, really cute.
I like the idea, but people werelike, like slamming vodka, and

(49:27):
it was just like, it felt verymuch like, I guess what I
thought college maybe would havebeen like had I been there in my
early 20s...

Valerie (49:35):
Ah, Sure.

Seven (49:35):
Then I had a party and I'm spinning vinyl and I'm
making, um, like, specialcocktails that I looked up all
these recipes and it's very,it's just way different, you
know?
And...

Valerie (49:46):
Yeah.

(49:46):
It's a different, they're just not my tribe, you know?

Carly (49:50):
Yeah.

Valerie (49:50):
Fair.
Yeah.
No, that is fair.
I didn't even, you know, I justgave my, one of my PhD students
like a pep talk the other day.
I was like, because she justfinished, um, Comps and now
she's doing her proposal, likeher dissertation proposal.
And then she wants to put in apostdoc grant, and then she's
gonna have to analyze the data.
I hope she's not listening tothis actually...

(50:10):
She's going to have to analyzethat data.
And then she's going to have todefend it, and maybe she'll be
out on the job market.
And I was like, and she had madethis comment around like,"Yeah,
one really stressful thing hasdone and now I have to do the
next, really stressful, bigthing,".
And I was like,"Yeah, welcome toacademia,".
But that is, I mean, it isuniquely, I think stressful, and

(50:30):
a lot in grad school and tolayer in two kids is, is a lot.
So that would definitely setthat grad school's experience
apart.

(50:41):
They're going to need a lot of therapy.
I actually there was a point,like, and I'm qualified, but I
still make them...
No.
They, there was a point where,cause initially I started going
to school for my daughter.
Like I wanted to give, you know,it was a big part of it.
She was three, I think.
She just turned 15 no.
She was three when I started.
And um, there became a pointwhere I realized that I was
doing it instead of, you know, Ikept saying I was doing it for

(51:02):
my kids, but it was a detrimentto my kid.
You know, it was at theirexpense in a lot of ways, even
just when I'm just crabby andgrumpy and like, you know, like
trying to do something and myson keeps chucking pillows at my
computer, you know?
And just like, and this is howchild abuse happens.
Like I get it.
No.

Valerie (51:21):
Yeah.
Well that sounds like prettymuch every household during
COVID quarantine, though.
Right now.

(51:27):
When they closed the parks.
Well, and now even, cause I takehim walking or like all the time
and just try to run him out, runhis energy out.

Valerie (51:33):
Yeah.

(51:33):
It's a hundred degrees here now.

Carly (51:35):
Yeah.

Valerie (51:35):
Oh gosh.
Okay.

(51:36):
Yeah.
This is not, it's not a thing.
So now I'm just gonna...

Carly (51:39):
You guys are a couple of weeks behind us, right?
So you guys l ike just startedlike full quarantine, right?
I have a couple of cousins outthere your way.
And that's what they weresaying.
N o, i t's j ust that, they werea few weeks behind us.
So you're like just getting inthe thick of it.
Right?

(51:54):
Well, they haven't really made too many rules, so they did shut
down, like salons and stuff.
But there's, I mean, I still getall my takeout food and do
everything.
Like there's not rules that youreally have to stay home.
It's just a suggestion.
But they're actually openingthings up again, May 15th.
So i t w as just k ind o f thewild west where they just are
like...

Carly (52:13):
Y up.
With the finger guns.

(52:15):
Like you're on your own.
Our governor has a lot of vestedinterests in a lot of
businesses.
Like his wife owns blow dry barsand stuff.
So I have a feeling they'regoing to be opened up quick
because he needs some, somemoney.

Carly (52:25):
Money.
Right.

(52:26):
So it's very political.

Valerie (52:28):
That's fair.
So do you, you've been inArizona.
Were you born?
No.
You weren't born and raised inArizona?

(52:34):
No, I'm a South Dakota girl.

Valerie (52:36):
So how did you land in Arizona?

(52:39):
My parents drove me out here, the middle of my beginning of my
senior year, which made merealize that as good as I
thought I was at sports in SouthDakota, I was in fact not that
good at sports.

Carly (52:50):
You play lacrosse?

(52:51):
A reality check and ego check...I can't even imagine how
big my head would be if I stilllived in South Dakota b ecause I
was l ike a baller there.
I was so...
I was such a brat.
No, I moved here, got an egocheck, you know, worked at
Mobile and Home Depot.
And then, u h, yeah, I startedcommunity college at 25.

Valerie (53:10):
Okay.

(53:10):
Almost a decade later.

Valerie (53:11):
Do you hope to stay in Arizona?

(53:14):
I'll go anywhere I can get an MSL job.
In fact, there was one I wasinterviewing for, which was like
Mississippi/Alabama.
And I'm trying to get mydaughter to this pep talk that
this could happen.
And I was like,"So look, thesehow you can get like a seven
bedroom mansion for$150,000 inAlabama,".

Valerie (53:30):
Yep.
Totally.

(53:31):
I tried.

Valerie (53:32):
Well, we're going to have to get you this MSL Job in
Delaware.
We need more Seven in this areaof the country.
Yeah.

Seven (53:38):
I'll make sure that Scott, well, the guy from the
Gin Blossoms, he'll come seeyou.
And you can make him laugh too,cause he's easy to make laugh.

Carly (53:47):
Heck yeah!

Valerie (53:47):
Oh, that's perfect.
Well, that'll be all Carly.

Carly (53:50):
Do you pronounce...?
How do you pronounce your son'smiddle name?

(53:53):
Avett.

Carly (53:54):
Avett.
That's, okay.
That's a, yeah.
So no, I was just saying I wasa, I'm a huge Avett Brothers
fan, and I was listening to"Talkon Indolence" before this, that,
that was...
I pick a pump up jam before eachpodcast, but that one felt like
the right one.
Cause it's like, you know, we'veall been stuck in our house for
some time now, doing all thethings, you know...
But anyway, that was one of thethings, but that was to say that

(54:15):
both the Avett Brothers, and whowas the other one you just
said..had just been to, the Bobat UD.
So if there's ever a reason tocome up to Delaware, it's for
the fantastic music scene wehave in this little bubble right
here.

Valerie (54:29):
Yeah, that's what Delaware is.

Carly (54:29):
Yeah, I mean like science is cool and all, but like more
importantly, we did get that.
Leave your brothers to come tous.
So...

(54:35):
That's me.
So yeah, my son is named afterthe Avett brothers, as I'm sure
you guys have put it together.

Carly (54:40):
Yeah.

(54:41):
They're so good...

Carly (54:42):
So good.

(54:42):
Have you heard"A Perfect Space"?

Carly (54:46):
Yes, I've heard"A Perfect Space".
But have you heard theRobinsville, the"Robinsville
sessions"?

(54:51):
I don't think I have.

Carly (54:52):
That's the album.
I'm going to email that to youafter this.
That's the one, I'll, you mighthave.
Yeah.
We'll, we'll sort it out.
I'll email you, but you have tolisten to that.
It's just like a live recordingthat they did of...
It's like a whole album in itsentirety, but includes all the
little like blurbs that they doin between each piece.

Seven (55:09):
So when Seth Avett started cheating on his wife
with the woman from Dexter....

Carly (55:12):
Yup.

(55:13):
But well, they're still dreamy.

Carly (55:16):
Yup.

(55:16):
I,them, and then I've been on a Smashing Pumpkins kick lately.
And Billy Corgan looked at mystory.
And so I screenshotted that, andthat's my newest new favorite
thing.

Carly (55:26):
Yes!

Valerie (55:26):
T hat is amazing!

(55:28):
I know.
So we're basically, he doesn'tknow it yet, but we're on the
way to be friends.

Carly (55:31):
Right?

Valerie (55:31):
Yeah.
And now we're one step away fromBilly Corgan as well.

Carly (55:35):
Yeah.
That's awesome.

(55:37):
I'll send you the screenshot now.
It was yeah, Billy, the SmashingPumpkins.
Like I started listening totheir discography from the
beginning.

Carly (55:43):
Yeah.

(55:43):
And"Gish" holds up.
It's like very like grungy,like, cause I was mostly"Mellon
Collie and the Infinite Sadness"and"Siamese Dream".

Carly (55:50):
Right.

(55:51):
But there's a moment in time right now for"Gish".

Carly (55:53):
Yeah.
That's fair.
That's fair.

(55:59):
Yes.

Carly (55:59):
We're going to have a lot of back and forth email, I
think.
There are so many music things.

(56:04):
I'm down.

Carly (56:04):
That's what I was like, talking with Valerie before we
started, and I was just like,"SoI creeped real deep into, into
Seven's Instagram,".

Valerie (56:12):
I think all of our RA's did.

Carly (56:12):
They really did.
They really d id.

Valerie (56:16):
Yeah.
Basically I was like,"We'regoing to interview Dr.
Seven Tomek.
Here's her, you know, go lookher up at ASU.
Also check her Instagram page,".
And then they came back withlike all sorts of questions
about, cause I think that youkind of like blew their mind
about what, what a science, a,what a scientist looks like, but

(56:36):
then specifically like, what aneuroscientist looks like.
Cause I think that they had thislike older, white man picture in
their mind.
And then they're like,"How isthis woman a, like a
neuroscientist?" which was apretty amazing, you know,
moment.

(56:50):
That's awesome.

Valerie (56:51):
Oh man.
Yeah.

Seven (56:52):
I'm definitely old and white, but I'm not quite the man
part.
So...

Valerie (56:56):
Aw, you're not old, cause we're the same age.
So...yeah.

(56:56):
Man, when my daughter tells me I'm not cool anymore, I'm like,
"But I am,".

Valerie (57:04):
Yeah, no, I think we've got like a whole lab of RAs who
would...

Carly (57:07):
Yeah, no.

Valerie (57:07):
Come bring up your coolness factor.

(57:07):
Awesome.

Carly (57:11):
Yeah.
For sure.

(57:11):
I love your lab.
I'm definitely coming to...
Well, if I don't get a job, I'mgoing to do the stray cat thing
and just show up.
So...

Carly (57:16):
Also Delaware has tax free shopping.
I'm just saying people can'twrap their minds around that.
But like what it says on theprice, we pay.
And there is no trick about it.
Like, so all I'm saying is thatmight be all you need to know to
move up to Delaware.

Seven (57:31):
I think I'm single handedly keeping the economy
alive with my poor, like, onlinechoices.
I just do.
I've been doing the, Like itKnow it app on, Instagram.
And so I see shoes and you clickon the shoes and then it shows
you the link to buy the shoes.
And I'm like,"Well that'sconvenient,".

Carly (57:45):
Right.

(57:45):
Like, what are they trying to do to me?

Valerie (57:48):
Yeah.
That's how I have tried both...
What is it?
The like the, not theAllbirds...
The, the Rothys and, the, theshoes that are like slippers...
I'll come back to them.

Carly (58:00):
Oh wait, the Vibrams?
Are you talking about the toeshoes?

Valerie (58:03):
No, not the toe shoes.

(58:04):
Please don't tell me Crocs...

Valerie (58:04):
No, come on...

Carly (58:06):
Okay, so don't say toe shoes with that kind of scornful
tone there...Simmer down.
But...

Valerie (58:14):
You have toe shoes?

Carly (58:14):
I did.
Maybe.

Valerie (58:16):
Oh, that's a yes.

Carly (58:16):
Maybe.

(58:16):
I did...

Carly (58:18):
I don't know.
There's no photo evidence.
I don't know.

Valerie (58:21):
I can't even do like the toe socks.
Like, just like the separation.

(58:24):
Oh, I know what you're talking about.
Yes, those are so...they're likealien shoes.

Carly (58:28):
Yeah.
No.

Valerie (58:28):
Yes!

Carly (58:29):
They're...great if you don't have very high arches.
Guys.

Valerie (58:33):
We're learning so much about each other.
I've also...
this also, this conversationreally does also underscore for
me, what I should now recognizeto be the biggest risk of doing
this podcast...which is thatCarly is going to realize how
much cooler my colleagues are.
And she's going to like quit andmove across the country to
Phoenix, to go work with them.

(58:53):
She's like,"No problem.
Let's, let's study rats,".
So I've got this, she's going tofinger gun you.
You're going to fall for it.
It's going to be a sciencehappily ever after.

(59:04):
It's going to be a plot twist.
Cause she's going to show up andI'll be like,"Well, I'm
unemployed.
So let's go to a rock show,".

Carly (59:11):
That's not a plot twist.

Valerie (59:11):
She'll be like,"Thank you for everything,".

Carly (59:11):
Yeah.
Unfortunately, I want to tellValerie she's wrong because I
really do love my job.
But it sounds like that actuallyis a pretty sweet gig, so...

Seven (59:17):
I call it Seven's Canyon and Coffee Tour.
So I'll show you all the redrocks, all the coffee, and all
the tequila.

Valerie (59:23):
I feel like, the next podcast that I record with,
Carly, or the next Zoom meetingwe have...
I'm going to like, see like Bearrunning across the background.
I'll be like,"Where are you?".
She'll just be like,"Maybe I'min Arizona,".

Carly (59:35):
Or like the next podcast just begins with like,"So this
week's podcast should also beconsidered my two week notice.
I live in Arizona now.
That's what we do,".

(59:45):
You can have Bear say it.
It's cuter coming from a kid.
And he does like, just repeatwhatever you say, especially if
it's a bad word.

Carly (59:51):
Yeah.

Valerie (59:51):
That's for sure.

Carly (59:52):
This is my effing last week.

Seven (59:56):
Yeah.
Before I knew that Tiger Kingwas what Tiger King was, I
thought it was going to belike...I didn't know, it was
just trashy documentary.
I thought it was gonna be allanimals and stuff.
And so I put on the firstepisode and Bear learned some
new words before I realized Ishould shut it off.
So he was saying this, everybodythat we ran into contact with...

Carly (01:00:15):
That bitch Carol Baskins.
Yeah.

Valerie (01:00:16):
I guess i t's good it's quarantine time then...
Limit..

(01:00:18):
He uses them correctly.
He's kind of averageintelligence, but he uses swear
words correctly.
So I'm really proud of that.

Valerie (01:00:26):
Okay.
Good for him.
He is, he is the son of adoctor, now.

Carly (01:00:29):
That is true.

Valerie (01:00:31):
Yeah.
Are your kids proud of you thatyou wrapped up?
Like do they understand likewell you're...
No.
Okay.

(01:00:37):
I think Azalea is, is feeling like a different, weird kind of
pressure.
Cause I have her at a very, veryhard school.
So when I was learning basicmath from the beginning..
Like you have to test in themath classes at community
college and I didn't know youhad to do this.
So I showed up and they're like,"Multiply and divide
fractions,".
And I'm like,"I don't know howto do that,".

Valerie (01:00:56):
And now you have your PhD.

(01:00:56):
Yeah.
I had to learn all the math, butI had to learn from basic math,
and take a math every semesteruntil I graduated And so she's
at a really hard she's at like,it's one of the top 50 schools
in the country.
It was like top 10.
But they changed the ratingprocess.

Valerie (01:01:10):
Okay.

(01:01:10):
Because they were dominating the ratings...
It's the BASIS schools.
I don't know if you're familiar.
And so she is like in eighthgrade and she's taking physics
and chemistry and calculus andall this stuff.
And I think she hates me alittle bit and she's like,"I
don't want to be a doctor,".
And I'm like,"You don't have tobe.
But this way, no matter what youdo, it's in your brain.
You can use it or not use it,".

(01:01:31):
She's brilliant.
She's a savant as an artist.
She's an incredible artist, andshe's more published than a lot
of my peers.
She's done the cover oftextbooks, journals,
international posters.

Carly (01:01:42):
Wow.

Valerie (01:01:42):
That's incredible.

(01:01:42):
And she started doing them when she was like single digits,
you know?
Like it's just crazy to thinkabout...but she's probably going
to be an artist in some way.
But an artist that knowsphysics, which...

Carly (01:01:54):
I went to an art high school, that's number two in t
he state for science.
So there, there you go, go.
Y eah.

Valerie (01:02:01):
You guys will be pretty a dynamite team.

Carly (01:02:03):
Yeah, I think, yep.
I'm going to go...

(01:02:06):
Step one, find a job.

Carly (01:02:09):
Once you find a job, let me know.
I'm joining you there.

(01:02:12):
Well, she might, she would be able to speak to the fact that
everyone else had pitched X forthis Yale thing.
And mine was literally just a 10minute or two minute plea a job.
At the very end, I was like,"Okay.
Somebody hire me,".
That was like my last slide andit's like"Give me a job,".

Valerie (01:02:24):
No, it's fantastic.
The only reason it didn'twork...cause cause you were
still a year out fromgraduating.
My two minutes was like,"And, Idon't think I'm going to do
this,".
So I thought here is also wentover much better than mine.
You're like,"I'll work withanybody here,".
And I was like,"I think, I thinkI came here and realized I am
going a different direction,".
But actually what is coolestsomebody from that project, I

(01:02:46):
don't know if you can rememberArden...the guy who was doing
the Pill Smart.

(01:02:50):
Yeah.

Valerie (01:02:50):
Yeah.
So he reached out and anyway, Iwas helping him a little bit
with his application this weekbecause he thinks that, I mean,
it's, it's actually a reallysmart idea.
He thinks that the, um...he'screated this pill dispenser,
which is like a really sleekdesign.
So adolescents who are usingmedications could, could use
this dispenser.

(01:03:11):
Like no one would know, likeit's, you know...it's totally
different to get out like yourorange pill bottle as like a 13
year old versus like this sleekthing that could be a cell phone
or something.

(01:03:21):
Yeah.

Valerie (01:03:22):
So anyway, I was talking with him, I was helping
him figure out how he could likelook at how that might reduce
concerns around stigma.
So that, and it...
So it definitely has had animpact.
I also came back from that and Imade my whole lab do like a
design day, which was so muchfun.
Like we covered the lab withlike all sorts of like

(01:03:42):
intervention ideas.
So it got me thinking reallydifferently about how to do
science, even in the context of,even in the context of academia.
But, and it established somecool connections.

(01:03:53):
That's awesome.

Valerie (01:03:54):
Including this one.
But yeah, so, but it is cool because I could go a lot of
different directions, but yeah,you pitched a job and I pitched
an"oops".

Seven (01:04:03):
You know, who I'm still in touch with from that is,
Peter Low.
Do you remember him?

Valerie (01:04:08):
I'm not sure.

(01:04:08):
He's the lions rock guy whose daughter was addicted to
opioids.
And so he left Sega.
He was a Sega Genesis VP.
And then he went on to do lion'srock.

Valerie (01:04:17):
Yes! Yeah, yeah.
I do remember his presentation.
I was thinking of the students.
You kept in touch with one ofthe, like the big deal
presenters who came on.
Of course you did.
That's awesome.

(01:04:25):
I actually have an idea to pitch him on a job for me too,
but I'm waiting for thequarantine...

Valerie (01:04:29):
You should!

Seven (01:04:31):
There's a photo that I have where I'm holding like a
vintage Gibson guitar.

Valerie (01:04:35):
Okay.

(01:04:35):
And he sent me a photo of him, in the eighties...he was in like
a rock band playing the sameguitar I was holding.
And then, so we just, every timethere's like new music, which I
have a feeling it's going to be,our new thing.

Carly (01:04:49):
Yeah.
Hoping so.

(01:04:49):
I want to teach a class at this record store by my house,
where I basically relatemusicians from across
generations.
Like, there's, uh, like MuddyWaters and LeadBelly, like
Nirvana covered Leadbelly andthen bands that are influenced
by Nirvana.
And I kind of want to do thiswhole over the ages connection

(01:05:12):
between all of them.
Or how like Radiohead got suedby, The Hollies for their song.
And then Lana Del Ray got suedby Radiohead, but that was a new
thing.
Songs that he's musicians that Ilove.
And so I want to, kind of teachthe background about the
musicians, the connections, andthen play it all on vinyl.
And that's probably what I'mgoing to do instead of get a

(01:05:33):
job.

Carly (01:05:33):
One of my coworkers sons, goes to Harvard and he's taking
a class called from Bach toBeyonce right now.
And she shared the playlist,like the Spotify.
They didn't have to buy atextbook or anything.
They just had to buy like aSpotify Premium.
Yeah.
Like a subscription.
And there's this podcast thatlike, and then you're, you're
and, all you have to do is like,you have to listen to the whole

(01:05:53):
thing and then you have to makethe connection between all of
them.
And they're like really funky.
Like not actually really there'slike Druids.
Yeah.
It's it's, it's wild.

Seven (01:06:03):
That's cool.
See, that'd be right up myalley.
I stuff like that.
And I love when I hear songsthat remind me of other songs,
and then I'll find like anobscure article where they were
somehow weirdly influenced on itbecause they were in the back of
a bus in Melbourne.
Someone showed them the song orwhatever.
I love stuff like that.
Like the stories, the whole VH1,Behind the Music was my jam back
in the day.

Carly (01:06:22):
That and Pop-Up Video.

(01:06:22):
I learned so much.

Carly (01:06:26):
Me too.

Valerie (01:06:29):
Well, I feel like, you'd lose like the vinyl aspect
of it, but I would totally readthat book.
Like describe it, like, youknow, like tying all these
people together.
I think it'd be superinteresting.
And Nelly run the dissertation.
I mean, you could probably pumpthat out in a week or two.
Right?

Seven (01:06:44):
Well, I started writing my memoir to avoid writing my
dissertation.

Carly (01:06:46):
Yes!

Valerie (01:06:46):
Okay.

(01:06:49):
"Get in Bitches, We're Going on an Adventure".

Carly (01:06:51):
Yeah.

Valerie (01:06:51):
I love that.

My memoir is called"Inflamed: When Immune Systems Attack". (01:06:51):
undefined
Yours is better.

(01:06:58):
Yeah.

Valerie (01:06:58):
Get in Bitches.
I love that.
It's like, when does it comeout?

Seven (01:07:03):
When I get a more interesting life, for sure.

Carly (01:07:05):
Doubtful.

Valerie (01:07:06):
How can, I don't know how it gets more interesting?
Yeah.
You've got wild animals in thehouse.

Seven (01:07:12):
Yeah.
Well, you know the, there's myfriend that takes photos, who's
Alice Cooper's photographer.
So she took a picture of me andher husband's van with the
flames.
And that's the cover of the, ofwe set it look like a novel
cover, which is how it allstarted.
And then when I was reallyavoiding writing, I started to
like the chapter out.
I was like a crazy person, butI'm not actually going to do it.
S

Carly (01:07:32):
Did you read Keith Richard's life?
That's the name of hisautobiography.
You should do that.
That was like, as someone thatalmost exclusively reads rock
and roll autobiographies.
Read that one.
It's the best one.

Seven (01:07:45):
Yeah.
I've been reading a lot of drugbooks lately, but really good
drug books like...

Carly (01:07:49):
Well, it's Keith Richards.
So it's a drug book, and anautobiography actually.
It's both things at one time.

Seven (01:07:54):
T hat, t hat actually is true.
My education would fit tworockstars.
So maybe I'll specialize inthose next.

Carly (01:07:59):
There you go.

Valerie (01:08:00):
There you go.

Seven (01:08:00):
I'm never dating another one, but I will specialize in
writing about them.

Carly (01:08:03):
Fair enough.

Valerie (01:08:05):
Fair.

Seven (01:08:05):
There's a book called"How to Change Your Mind" by
Michael...
What's his last name?
His first name is Michael.

Valerie (01:08:10):
Will can look it up.

Seven (01:08:12):
"How to Change Your Mind?" It's about like how these
labs started studying, shrooms,hallucinogens, Pollen Michael
Pollen.
P-O-L-L-E-N.

Valerie (01:08:20):
Yeah.
Okay.

Seven (01:08:21):
And, it's very educational, but written in a
way that feels very...

Valerie (01:08:27):
Expectable.

Seven (01:08:27):
Yeah.
And like, almost like you'rereading a fiction book.
I t has that draw to it, whereyou are really interested.
And then"Dreamland", which Ithink I was telling you about
before...
The Sam Quinones opioid book.

Valerie (01:08:40):
Yup.
Worth a read.
Okay.

Seven (01:08:43):
Yeah.

Valerie (01:08:44):
Yeah.
That's great.
Well, Seven, thank you so muchfor taking this time during
quarantine time, to chat with usand to, I'm glad you were able
to step away from the crazyanimals in your household...

Seven (01:08:57):
I thought my dog was going to make an appearance.
Huxley.
Hux.
I'm actually shocked he didn't.

Valerie (01:09:05):
Yeah.
I thought I saw you like,petting him.

Seven (01:09:06):
Come here, Huxley.

Valerie (01:09:06):
Oh, this is great...first dog appearance on
the podcast.

Carly (01:09:14):
It is! And just so all the listeners know, Huxley is
super handsome.

Valerie (01:09:19):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Seven (01:09:19):
He's a little crazy though, which we're struggling
with.
C ause h e w as great with us,but strangers h e's real weird
with...
H e's from the pound.

Carly (01:09:27):
Yup.

Seven (01:09:28):
He had a hard life.

Carly (01:09:28):
I have a Huxley except for he doesn't have any white on
his face.
He has white on the chest, butotherwise they look exactly the
same.

Seven (01:09:37):
Yeah.
He's a, as soon as I sit down onthe couch, he thinks he's
allowed to sit on my lap.
So I was shocked he didn't try.

Carly (01:09:41):
It's like, they need emotional support dogs.
Like that's what I say about mydog all the time.
Like"You need an emotionalsupport dog,".

Seven (01:09:48):
He's, a stage five clinger, for sure.

Carly (01:09:50):
Yes.
Yes.
Perfect.

Valerie (01:09:54):
Oh man.
Well, we're all hands on deck ongetting you a job, but only
getting you a job in Delaware orPhilly or Maryland.
Yeah.
I mean you would take somethingat Hopkins, right?
So...

Seven (01:10:04):
Don't threaten me with a good time.

Valerie (01:10:19):
All right.
A huge, thanks to Seven, forjoining us for the podcast.
It was a great conversation.

Carly (01:10:25):
It was a great conversation.

Valerie (01:10:27):
I feel like Seven is just one of these people who has
like, sort of a gravitationalpull to them, which I feel like
I can say as someone with a PhDin social psychology...
That that's like a thing.
I'm going to put that out there.

Carly (01:10:43):
I think she's effortlessly cool.

Valerie (01:10:44):
Effortlessly.
Cool.
Oh my gosh.
She is.

Carly (01:10:47):
That should be her new tagline.

Valerie (01:10:48):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that that's just,you know, not always what you
expect from a neuroscientist.

Carly (01:10:54):
Nope.

Valerie (01:10:54):
Nope.
Yeah.
Well, we had part of theconversation with Seven, was
about economics.
And I made a comment about howacademics don't make a lot or
something of those vein.
And I think it's reallyimportant to temper that,
especially at this of like hugeeconomic instability.

(01:11:17):
So what I would probably, youknow, say if I could go back in
time, is that, academics as awhole are super well off.
And I feel very, very, very,very, very lucky to, work at a
university, especially in themidst of COVID.
In addition to that, I thinkthat there is a lot more

(01:11:40):
variability among, you know,jobs with people who had PhD
than I thought that there wasbefore I got into grad school.
So it wasn't until I got intograd school that I realized some
things like, how hard the jobmarket was going to be after I
left.

(01:12:01):
I also didn't realize that thereare a lot of that...
There's a sizable number ofpeople with PhDs who struggle
financially, who, struggle toget a job at a university or
maybe in a, a research settingand kind of stitch together
employment...doing mayberesearch contracts or teaching

(01:12:22):
contracts with universities.
So before I started grad school,I didn't realize that.
And that is, that's, you know,something that sometimes tumbles
around my mind when we talkabout job earnings with people,
with PhDs.

Carly (01:12:36):
I think especially, you know, with the title like
neuroscientist.

Valerie (01:12:41):
Yeah.
I should get snatched up.
Yeah.
It's funny.
Cause we interviewed someone tojoin her lab the other week and
she was saying that she's satthrough like a whole
presentation in one of herclasses from a professor telling
her like, this is why youshouldn't get your PhD.

Carly (01:12:54):
Right.
Exactly.

Valerie (01:12:55):
And I think that's because so many people with PhDs
hit this moment and then...
When they're looking for jobsand they're really struggling to
find a job and they worry aboutother people joining the field
and having sort of a similarstruggle.
But overall people with PhDs,you know, rocking it
economically.

(01:13:16):
So, you know, it shoulddefinitely temper that
conversation with that...

Carly (01:13:19):
Set the record straight.

Valerie (01:13:21):
Set the record straight.
All right.
So luckily Seven has come to therescue to get us out of this
conversation about jobinsecurity and PhDs, with a
video.
Let me pull it up and I'm goingto hold it up to the screen.
Just tell the listeners whatyou're seeing.

Carly (01:13:43):
What?
Is that Scott from the GinBlossoms?

Valerie (01:13:45):
It is Scott from the Gin Blossoms.
N ow l et's just hold tightthere...
There is a full 30 second videocoming at ya.
Ready?

Carly (01:13:53):
Yes!

Valerie (01:13:53):
Are you buckled in?

(01:13:57):
Yes! I am...

Valerie (01:13:57):
As usual, r ight?

Scott (01:14:00):
Hey Carly and Val, it's Scott from the currently
quarantined Gin Blossoms.
And just wanted to say hello andhope you are well.
I think I'm, well, I don't know.
I'm, I'm waiting to get myantibody test back, but, I wish,
I wish that was a joke too, butyou know, and nowadays it's just

(01:14:24):
, you can never be too safe.
So anyway, have a good summer!

Carly (01:14:32):
Oh, that's the best thing that's ever happened to me in my
whole life!

Valerie (01:14:36):
It's definitely the highlight of the whole pandemic.

Carly (01:14:41):
Yeah.
The whole entire thing.

Valerie (01:14:42):
The whole entire thing.
I have so many mixed feelingsabout this.
Okay.
A) I'm bummed that he had to getan antibody test.
I hope that he's well.

Carly (01:14:49):
R ight.

Valerie (01:14:50):
So that's, that's you know,"Hey, reminder that we're
in pandemic," but B) Scott fromthe Gin Blossoms knows our
names...

Carly (01:15:00):
Yeah! And said them out loud...

Valerie (01:15:02):
And said them out loud...

Carly (01:15:02):
On a video...

Valerie (01:15:02):
And it's recorded.
We h ave proof.

Carly (01:15:04):
Yup.

Valerie (01:15:06):
Amazing.
And I have questions aboutwhether we should be quitting
our jobs and becoming roadies.
Is roadie still like a thing?

Carly (01:15:17):
Yeah.
Also, what is the question?
Because to me, there is noquestion.
We're obviously going to go beroadies for the Gin Blossoms.

Valerie (01:15:25):
I t's it's too bad.
If anyone actually is listeningto this podcast, that we're not
g oing t o be able to do itanymore because we are going to
just be following the GinBlossoms around...

Carly (01:15:34):
But catch us on the next tour.

Valerie (01:15:36):
For sure.
Yeah.
No, I mean, we pretty much havepeaked for the podcast, for the
career, for the life.
So...

Carly (01:15:44):
Yeah.
No, it's only downhill fromhere.
But thank you, Scott.

Valerie (01:15:49):
Yes! And...

Carly (01:15:52):
And Seven.

Valerie (01:15:52):
Thank you, Seven.
Not only for talking to us, andhaving such a great
conversation, but also for, youknow, sending us this video and
making our whole COVID pandemicexperience.

Carly (01:16:04):
Yes!

Valerie (01:16:04):
The highlight of...

Carly (01:16:06):
Eternally grateful.

Valerie (01:16:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, thank you.
Thank you.
Big thanks to the Stigma andHealth Inequities Lab at the
University of Delaware for theirhelp with the podcast, including
Natalie Brousseau, Alissa Leung,and Saray Lopez.
A special thanks to ChristinaHolsapple, who researched this
episode.

Carly (01:16:27):
And as always, thanks to City Girl for the music.

Valerie (01:16:30):
And thanks to all of you for listening.
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