October 11, 2023 • 38 mins
Have you ever felt like you're at the crossroads of your faith and sexual identity? Are you struggling to reconcile the two? Today's episode takes us on the journey of debunking the myth that Coming Out and religion don't mix and we're fortunate to have Reverend Tracy Mehr-Muska, DMin, from Wesleyan University sharing invaluable insights and wisdom. She brings her first-hand experience counseling students who are grappling with their sexual identity within the sphere of their faith.
We're diving into the heart of Wesleyan University, exploring the dynamics of religion and LGBTQ identity amongst its students. Gone are the days when most students at Wesleyan identified with a religion. In stark contrast, over half of the student body now identifies as agnostic or atheist. In the midst of this shift, we explore how to celebrate both identities without losing hope in finding accepting and supportive spiritual communities. We also stir up the conversation on the relationship between the divine and oneself, and whether a religious community is inseparable from the divine.
Finally, brace yourself as we decode the interpretation and relevance of the Bible in affirming the LGBTQ community. We're thrilled to have Brian Blunt from Union Theological Seminary share that the Bible is a living word, capable of unveiling new understandings. He brings to light Jesus's ministry of radical love and inclusion, which counteracts any form of discrimination. As we wrap up our conversation, we spotlight various faith communities that uplift and celebrate the LGBTQ community and guide on how to identify genuinely inclusive spaces. This episode promises to be a revelation in itself, let's navigate these complex intersections together!
Follow us on social @sexeddebunked or send us a message at sexeddebunked@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hi, this is Sex Ed Debunked, a cross-generational
podcast hosted by motherdaughter duo, christine and
Shannon Curley.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Every episode, we tackle a new myth about sex,
sexuality and pleasure, and useresearch and expert insights to
debunk stereotypes andmisinformation from the bedroom
and beyond.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
In 2022, we won the American Association of
Sexuality Educators, Counselorsand Therapists Award for Best
Podcast and also managed to nottotally freak out our family and
friends along the way.
We believe in healthy,sex-positive, pleasure-focused
sex education, backed by realresearch and real experience.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter
at Sex Ed Debunked or email usat SexEdDeBunked at gmailcom to
share your sex miseducationtales and the myths you'd like
to hear us debunk.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hi, welcome to Sex.
Ed Debunked across-generational podcast about
sex positivity, sexual healthand my personal favorite
rendition of the Bachelor, whichis how many of the
ex-bachelorettes are now queerLove that.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Huge fan of that.
Pretty appropriate for anational coming out day huh.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
It is really great.
I really am enjoying the GoldenBachelor.
They're like super good.
Jerry, You're very cute.
You're very 70-something yearsold.
What I'm really loving is thesubplot of how many women,
specifically who have been onthe Bachelor series, are now
dating women of the same sex oridentifying as queer or whatever
.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm like this is the plot that no one expected, but
I'm really here for Didn't thereshow you already watched that
has that kind of a queerbachelorette that you were
telling me about?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, the ultimatum on, netflix decided to do a
queer version.
I think that they should justdo that for every single one of
their reality dating shows isintroduce a queer version.
Although I was saying yesterdayto my girlfriend that the show
Love is Blind.
The premise of it is you spendthe days in the pods and you
don't see each other until youdecide that you want to be
together.
It's great and whatever.
(01:50):
I'm like yeah, but that showwould be so much longer if it
was lesbians, because lesbianstalk for 12 hours on that.
Anyway, in one of the episodesthis woman goes oh my God, have
you ever been on a four-hourdate before?
The guy and my girlfriend and Iboth were like yeah, yeah,
that's every day we're dating.
Yeah, exactly.
So I think more is what I'msaying Netflix, if you can hear
(02:11):
me more.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
All right.
Well then, this week's episode,we're talking about a subject
that we're often brought up onthe show Coming Out, which is
about disclosure to family,friends or other persons in your
life about sexual orientation,gender diversity, maybe
relationship diversity.
But since this episode isscheduled to air on October 11th
(02:34):
, which is National Coming OutDay, we thought we'd discuss
Coming Out from a differentperspective and debunk the myth
that Coming Out and religiondon't mix.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Which is very similar to the myth we did, I think, a
couple seasons ago, which wasjust the idea of that being
LGBTQ and religion don't mix.
So a little education as we do.
National Coming Out Day wasfirst celebrated in 1988, which
actually seems really recent,but over 30 years later it's
still on our calendars.
It was first celebrated on theone-year anniversary of the 1987
(03:07):
National March on Washingtonfor lesbian and gay rights,
which was a day chosen to honorthe brave LGBTQ individuals who
decided to come out and liveopenly.
It started out as just sort ofan awareness event, like hey
look, gay people exist.
But now the meaning of NationalComing Out Day is really,
really relevant to the LGBTQcommunities themselves.
(03:30):
I myself have posted on NationalComing Out Day and I think
there's varying degrees ofComing Out on National Coming
Out Day, whether it's justcoming out officially or the
yearly reminder to your peoplelike hey, by the way, I identify
this way, yeah, it's reallyimportant and it can kind of run
the gamut right.
It can be a really big deal ofintroducing yourself, it can be
(03:54):
introducing your partner, it canbe a huge challenge or it can
be really easy, and it dependson who you are and where you are
in your journey.
But the importance of NationalComing Out Day, much like Pride
Month itself, is just to givefolks who identify with an LGBTQ
community an opportunity to saywho they really are and be
honest and truthful about whothey are and hopefully feel seen
(04:14):
and a part of a community indoing so.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, doing a little bit of research for this episode
, I actually found some recentarticles talking about the
difficulty that is still withthe older community, because, as
we talk about sexual fluidity,we have older folks who have
been known a certain way alltheir lives, which makes coming
out even trickier than, say, fora young person.
(04:39):
But one space in particularwhere coming out may still be
extremely difficult is aroundreligion and religious
communities.
Lgbtq folk may have a uniquestruggle when their church is
openly and expressly against whothey are and who they love, to
the extent of telling LGBT folkthey're damned to hell, which,
of course, is pretty harsh.
(05:01):
Yeah, I don't love that.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
No, not great.
Yeah, I mean it's a fear for areason.
It's one of the most longestablished spaces where being
gay is not okay.
I don't know, I've heard it allthe time the old Adam and Eve,
not Adam and Steve, but right.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Well, and to help us with this discussion, I
interviewed Reverend TracyMerremusca, who's the Protestant
chaplain at Wesleyan Universitywho regularly counsel students
about coming to terms with theirsexual identity and their
church, and I chatted with herbasically to see what her advice
was around religion and LGBTQand to speak about the idea that
(05:46):
sometimes young people feellike they have to well, all
people feel like they have tochoose between their religious
identity and their sexualidentity, so she really became
the perfect guest expert forthis spot.
So today we're welcoming aguest who is a reverend at
(06:08):
Wesleyan University.
I will call you Reverend Tracy,but what is your full?
Speaker 4 (06:12):
name.
I'm Reverend Tracy Merremusca.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Well, welcome to the podcast.
We're really excited to haveyou here and I know you're going
to provide a wealth ofinformation to our listeners.
So first, should I call youReverend or Tracy?
Tracy would be perfect, okay.
So, tracy, tell us a little bitabout your background as a
Reverend.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here,christine, and I think I want to
start by dispelling one mythabout me being an expert,
because I am very, verypassionate about issues of faith
and justice and how they relate, and I also want to acknowledge
my location as a cisgenderedwhite woman who's married to a
man, and I recognize that I haveblind spots related to that
(06:57):
identity.
But as far as my identity as aminister is concerned, I grew up
in a progressive Presbyterianchurch which was part of the
Presbyterian church USA and itwas a very affirming and
encouraging place.
I loved church and when Igraduated from high school, I
(07:18):
went to the Coast Guard Academyand that was a time for me that
was riddled really withdifficulty and I also during
that time experienced trauma andI realized that my faith for me
helped me persevere.
It was instrumental in mestaying centered, feeling well
and being able to get throughsome very difficult times.
(07:40):
So it was because of thatrecognition of how faith played
a role in my well being thatwhen I had an opportunity to go
to seminary and make this myfull time vocation, that's when
I knew I really that's what Ineeded to do.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So it's a really a true calling for you coming from
, not just from your whole lifeexperience.
So this was not something youweren't raised in a family of
ministers, right?
Speaker 4 (08:04):
In fact I became Presbyterian kind of by
happenstance, because it was thechurch with the best programs
closest to my house.
So and also I had I was amarine scientist, so really
being a minister wasn't evennecessarily on my radar screen.
But I ended up having a marinescientist dream job and it was
so fun and entertaining and itwas missing the element of
(08:26):
fulfillment.
And when I felt most fulfilledwas when I was journeying with
others who were struggling orwere having difficulty and
helping them find sources ofhope and helping them connect
with whatever it was that gavethem meaning and purpose.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
I kind of think that's an interesting dichotomy
marine scientist aka reference.
Well done, presbyterian.
I think you're an expert in alot of things now I know a
little bit about a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It may be an expert in nothing, but that's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It kind of weirdly reminds me of that Seinfeld
episode where George said he wasa marine biologist.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Yes, saying I'm a minister definitely doesn't work
as well.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So tell us how you ended up at Wesleyan.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
So I was doing clinical chaplaincy.
So I knew from the beginningthat I really genuinely felt
called to ministry in aninterfaith setting to people who
were in crisis or experiencinghardship or difficulty.
I loved my job.
I worked in hospice and then Iproceeded to get pregnant and
have two children and then tooksome time off.
So along the way a friend said,hey, this job at Wesleyan might
(09:39):
be great for you because it'spart time and has the summers
off, this job and chaplaincy.
And I said, oh, that soundsconvenient.
And I really applied for itinitially because it seemed to
work well with my schedule.
But I immediately fell in lovewith the students and with the
opportunity to help peoplediscover sources of strength and
support, to help studentsfigure out who they are, away
(10:02):
from their families of origin,and to help people figure out
what do they believe.
They maybe didn't realize thatthere were other ways of
thinking about faith and beliefand life and love and
relationships and gender and allof these things.
So it's been such a joy to beable to walk with people through
those periods of discernmentand questioning.
So how long have you been atWesleyan?
(10:25):
So I've been.
I was at Wesleyan for eightyears.
I left for a couple of yearsduring COVID to serve a local
church and then I my positionwas open and I reapplied for my
position because I really didmiss this time, especially after
COVID.
I think young adults, as manyhave heard, are struggling.
(10:48):
It's been hard for them in somevery, very unique ways, so I
just felt like it was where Ineeded to be.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Perfect, perfect.
Well, I'm so glad you're here.
I'm so new at Wesleyan and Iwas thrilled to meet you, almost
like my second week, yeah, soI'm glad to know you're here for
everyone.
So we are having you on thisepisode for a reason.
It's going to air on coming outday, which is October 11th,
(11:16):
national Coming Out of Day, and,as we know, coming out and
religion have a very complicatedrelationship, especially people
in certain communities.
Religious communities mighthave issues coming out to family
, friends and also community,which is really challenging.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe students that you're
(11:41):
interacting with these days atWesleyan and what kind of
conversations you have with themabout their experience.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Cool.
Thanks so much.
There are a lot of students whodo come, and I remember this
from my college days too.
I remember being shocked thatpeople listen to country music.
I'm from Jersey, but people inmy neighborhood didn't listen to
country music, so I'm from NewYork.
I can't do this.
I can't do this.
So I think it's just so helpingstudents recognize how much
(12:14):
more there is to the world thanmaybe what they knew growing up.
And what that does affordpeople is an opportunity to
really think more openly andmore expansively about who they
are and how they fit into theworld.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Now, I know that Wesleyan is considered a pretty
liberal university as far asuniversities go, but are you
still hearing concerns fromstudents about their LGBTQ
status and their relationshipwith religion?
Speaker 4 (12:46):
So I think what is a reality at Wesleyan is it is a
very inclusive place andstudents who are LGBTQAI
identified can come here andfind a very, very safe and happy
place to be, and in some casesthat might also liberate them
(13:08):
from the need to kind of jivethe relationship, if you would,
between their religious identityand Wesleyan, because it's very
OK to be here and to not be aperson of faith.
So students will come here andsay, ok, I no longer am a person
of faith or I no longersubscribe to that because I
don't need to or I don't want to, or it's too hard or it's too
(13:28):
complicated.
And that I think becomes a morecommon narrative is that people
come and they, instead ofwrestling with it or finding
their place in a safe and alife-giving community, they
might just set it aside whilethey're here.
I don't even want to say rejectit, but just setting it aside
(13:49):
while they're here.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Is that different from the experience of students?
Maybe that you talked to eightyears ago or 10 years ago when
you were interacting withstudents?
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Historically, I think we would find, especially at a
place like Wesleyan, which was areligious institution at one
point in its history.
Yeah, that's what I mean.
It was a method, yes.
So students came here with areligious identity and maybe
we're then in a place to figureout is this, does this still fit
for me, Is this who I am?
And now I think we're findingmore and more students actually
(14:21):
about half of our studentsself-identify as atheist or
agnostic, and they're comingwithout a tradition and saying
is there something that I'mmissing?
Is there a place I can connect?
Is there a spiritual orreligious community where I can
find belonging and purpose andconnection and I can feel
connected to something greaterthan myself?
(14:42):
So I do think that there mayhave been a bit of an evolution
that way.
I think there are definitelystudents, though, that, as they
set aside their religiousidentity that they grew up with,
it's still part of their beingand it's still something that
they're wrestling with, even ifthey're not actively trying to
(15:04):
figure out.
Where do I fit in with this?
How do I reconcile this?
And so what I hope to do ishave more people engage in that
conversation Instead of settingit aside, maybe saying, ok, well
, how can these two intersectingidentities both be celebrated
at once, instead of needing tocompartmentalize?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
That's fascinating because we do talk on the
podcast and indeed in psychology, about this concept of
intersectionality, where we havedifferent, competing identities
and some that are marginalizedand some that are privileged,
and what I'm hearing you say isthat both of these, for some of
these students, both of theseidentities are quite legitimate
(15:47):
and things that they care deeplyabout.
But for this period of time atWesleyan that they consider a
safer space or, like I like tosay in my class, as a brave
space, they're choosing to putthat religion aside, but yet
they're still coming to you andyou still have a job, even
though you said 50% are agnosticor atheist.
(16:08):
So that, I think, is where yourexperience with the Wesleyan
students can speak to our largeraudience on the podcast about
how you can find a spiritualityeven though you might not have a
particular religious identity.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Absolutely, and my message for your audience is
also to not give up hope.
The biggest thing I want tocommunicate to my students is
you do not have to choose.
There are spiritual andreligious communities that will
love you and appreciate you forexactly who you are, exactly who
(16:45):
you were created to be.
And yeah, sometimes findingthose communities of faith it's
a little bit of work and it's alittle bit annoying, and in
certain geographic areas it's alittle more difficult.
I think we're a little spoiledup here in Connecticut.
But the reality is thosecommunities exist and they
certainly can help people withtheir resilience, with their
(17:08):
holistic well-being, with theirsense of belonging and with a
sense of hope.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So do you feel that students have different
approaches based on thereligious tradition that they're
coming from, or differentconcerns?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yes.
So one thing I often haveconversations with students
about is this idea that we havetwo relationships.
We have a relationship with thedivine in some cases, if we're
talking about more traditionalparadigms of religion, maybe
with God, the language manypeople use and then, separately,
(17:46):
we have a relationship with aninstitution or with a religious
paradigm, and what I invitestudents to do is try to break
those two things apart.
For many of us, when we weregrowing up, those things were
completely connected.
We can't imagine a relationshipwith the divine apart from a
religious community, maybe thatwe were a part of, but those are
two separate things.
So, celebrating thatrelationship with the divine and
(18:08):
then figuring out what are yourvalues, what do you need, who
makes you feel safe, and thenfinding the paradigm, the
community, the structure withinto which you can plug in and
then deepen your relationshipwith the divine.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
A lot of these students are really.
They're exploring identity onso many different levels, and it
sounds like you're asking toexplore your religious identity
too, and I wouldn't know whereto start.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
It's a hard question and I think the first question I
ask basically is who is God toyou and how do you relate to God
?
And you need to know the answerwithout stopping.
Why does it matter?
And I think, asking people toreflect on those questions.
We hear so often this ideas.
I'm spiritual but not religious.
(19:00):
I think in some cases thosethat's those are folks who are
saying I do believe there'ssomething bigger than myself and
the institutions have been Nota helpful way for me to
associate with that right likeor to Completely.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I mean I am, I am full confession.
A lot of our listeners knowthis.
I am from a Roman Catholictradition Straight through my
first 12 years of college.
So I took theology, philosophy,and you know, for a large part
of my growing up, you know youdid have, you know God is a
loving God, but then you alsohave it.
(19:38):
You know you do XYZ and you'regoing to hell an internal
demotion.
So those things were reallyhard to coexist and and I think
as a result both of both of myWell, you know, I would say my
one, my daughter Shannon, Ithink she would confess to this
too is probably in that range ofspiritual.
My son, I think he's probablymore like the 50% of Wesleyan
(20:02):
students at this point becauseyou know, being raising Children
in the Catholic Church, you arefocusing a lot on the
institution and the rules, andI'm sure there are other
Religions that are similar.
But the Roman Catholic ChurchCertainly has a certain
reputation in that area and I'msure at Wesleyan you do come
(20:22):
across students from thatbackground and when we talk
about Christianity specificallyand we talk about Jesus, the
last thing Jesus would do isshame people publicly.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
And yet our Institution sometimes get in
this habit of shaming people, orthis Frazeology love the sin
and hate the sinner, which Ifind incredibly offensive.
I agree.
So, in terms of Christianity, Ido have students say well, how
my church taught me X.
And here this scripture, righthere, says this how can you say
(20:57):
that it's okay for me to be meand still be Christian if the
scripture says this?
And I could just spend a Fewseconds talking about that
Please please, please, listeners.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Love, love the nerdy.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
I'm not an expert on scripture, but here's how I
understand scripture to Work inin my life.
I think the scriptures relatedto sexuality are often
overplayed, and so I saw thatthere are over 30,000 verses of
scripture.
Less than 10 of them deal withsame gender sexual activity.
(21:33):
Of those, it's specificallyabout forced sexual relations
that have to do with power.
So if now, if that's theparadigm with which we're making
rules about how of who we canlove and who we can marry,
that's really limited window,right.
(21:55):
Also, I review the scriptureswith all of my heart as a
Presbyterian, we take them very,very seriously.
And also they were written in aspecific time in a specific
place, in a specific context fora specific population of people
.
And I think it's also importantto remember that there are some
parts that are descriptive, thatdescribe what was happening in
(22:17):
the time, that are notProscriptive.
Meaning oh, it's not, it doesn'tmean that this is the, this is
what needs to be happening forthe rest of eternity, but for
this time and place this is veryrelevant, besides the fact that
it was written and transcribedby human beings who had biases
and had their own opinions aboutthings, all men presumably,
(22:39):
just aside Presumption, but Ireally embrace.
Brian Blunt of UnionTheological Seminary said this
in a lecture to that I went tomany, many years ago.
But it stuck with me that theBible and I think this applies
to other scriptures as well, butI don't, I'm not gonna speak
for other religious traditionsthe Bible is a living word that
(22:59):
God can reveal to me newunderstandings and new
interpretations if I prayerfullyengage it and I am earnest in
my Wanting to understand.
I think to say that the Bibleis fixed and God can't do
anything about it to me limitsGod's power.
So I think it's actuallyoffensive to say that the Bible
is literal and one-dimensionaland, taking the Bible literally,
(23:22):
I get very excited about allthis.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
As a legal scholar, it makes me think like, just
like the Constitution.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Just one amendment.
You could write many books on,but the idea for me is that the
Bible and If you are looking totake it literally, it's really
hard to do that because thereare inherent contradictions
Within it that make taking itliterally impossible.
So what I do tend to do is lookat the general themes,
(23:54):
especially of Jesus's life inministry love and justice, hope
for the oppressed, radicalinclusion and love, and so to me
, to discriminate against peoplefor any reason would be
Antithetical to what Iunderstand to be Jesus's life in
ministry.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Well, and it's always ironic that I think that if you
know, people have said you know, if Jesus Christ was alive
today, he would be shunned as aradical because he was a radical
even in his own time and histeaching.
So even if, if you're not ofthe religious faith to accept
Jesus Christ as our Lord andSavior, as is want to say,
(24:31):
you're still talking about a manwho was preaching something
that was really radical and Ilove how you position that.
As you know, radical ininclusivity, radical love, and I
assume that's pretty much whatyou're telling a lot of your
students.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Yes, and I know from personal experience how damaging
shame can be, and and no oneshould be ashamed for who they
are or how they were created,and Because religion has
provided some consolation in mylife, I want people who are open
(25:05):
to Exploring it to be able toaccess it as well.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I think it's really interesting that we talk about
so much of this shame and Ialmost feel like, as a chaplain,
it wouldn't be that difficultfor you to just like find
passages from the teachings thatwere exactly the opposite, that
(25:33):
were so inclusive, that were,you know, letting the leper in,
letting the prostitute, you know, wash his feet, like all of
these things would say thatanytime we act from a position
of shame, we are acting contraryto the teachings in the Bible,
and I had really thought aboutit that way of Jesus preaching
(25:53):
not shame.
I mean, we talk about the loveaspect, but the fact that you
know not shame is part of it ispretty huge.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
I think yes and celebrating our belovedness,
celebrating the reality thatwe're all children of God, like
these are all things that no onecan take away from us, even a
leader in a church who has someopinion about same gender
relationships.
Well, you're so right.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
There's a difference between the what would you say
the divine and the institution.
So tell me what kind ofconcrete advice you give to
these students who are coming inlooking for looking for a
lifeline.
It sounds like a way back tosome spiritual part of
themselves.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yes, well, before I get to that question, I also
just want to talk a little bitmore about the shame idea, which
is another podcast episodealtogether about sex positivity
in general.
Like, when we look at biblicalrelationships, how hard it would
be to apply them to what we'reliving today.
So if I'm a woman who's havingfertility problems, my husband,
(26:59):
if he were to go and have sexwith my best friend and father a
few children with her, thatwould not be okay, right and
like that was just totally whatused to happen.
So trying to apply biblicalrelationships and biblical mores
related to intimacy to the waywe live today is just not
possible.
And when people were gettingmarried, when they were 12 years
(27:22):
old, would I say that theyshould have sex before marriage?
Probably not right, but likethe fact that people Maybe not
get married before 12.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
But if now people are getting married at 35 and 40 or
choosing to not get married forwhatever reason, to say that
they don't deserve intimacy tome seems unreasonable.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
So anyway, that's a whole different subject.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
But let's get back to your question about what advice
to like.
I don't mind going down thoserabbit holes, tracy, because I
think it's really important,because the more we you know,
this is all, this podcast allabout sex positivity and trying
to let go of what you know thesocial expectations are, and it
kind of goes to your point oflike.
We shouldn't be looking at theBible as a literal document.
It's not some recipe, how tohow you know the rules of life.
(28:12):
It's more about the broaderthemes.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Right and it's so life giving and so encouraging
and so positive.
But if it's read that way, sowhat advice do I give?
I again, I invite people toreally look seriously at their
relationship with the divine andwhat that means for them, and
(28:37):
and trying to break that awayfrom the institution.
And that does not mean that wedon't grieve, and that's an
important part.
There are some communities offaith that you're never going to
convince them of all of what Ijust shared about scriptural
authority and context.
And to be to leave that faithcommunity is a source of pain
(29:00):
for many, many people, so I'mnot diminishing that by any
means.
And also there is an invitationto grieve that and also find a
community that uplifts andcelebrates who you are, and so I
do spend time working withstudents through that.
What does it mean to you knowespecially as you know a person
(29:23):
I don't identify as Catholic,but a lot of times Catholic
people do is very much who youare to say, oh, what does it
mean for me to say I'm notCatholic anymore or I now attend
this other church?
So in my Protestant church wehad people we call the affiliate
members because they wereCatholic parishioners who
weren't ready to not be Catholicanymore and it was like we
(29:45):
didn't care.
We're like, we don't care whatyou call yourself.
Be an affiliate member, be afull member, we don't care.
It was just an opportunity forthem to feel loved and to not
feel like they had to givesomething up or disappoint their
great grandmother, who died, orwhatever reasons for which we
feel connected to our spiritualand religious identity.
(30:06):
It is hard to let that go.
So that's one piece of advice Igive.
The second is just talking tostudents about scripture and
what it means to them and invitethem to think differently about
how it can be interpreted.
And also I invite students toenter into spiritual or
religious life in kind of safeways.
(30:28):
Okay, and so what does thatmean?
It could mean the Unitarian,universalist Church, for
instance.
It is a.
It's a church that welcomeseverybody.
I went to service one time andI have Jewish people there and
Christian people there andBuddhist people here, secular
humanists here.
And you can just be together incommunity and kind of work
through what do I believe andwhere do I fit in?
(30:48):
And it is generally speaking ofan amazingly safe place for
LGBTQAI identified people.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
That's Unitarian, universalist.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
And the United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian
Church USA also have open andaffirming churches as do the
Episcopal Church and otherProtestant denominations.
One of my students said theother day but how do I know
which one?
And I think that is a veryvalid question.
So I tell students, you tell mewhere you're doing your
(31:20):
internship or where you'respending your summer and I will
send you a list of churches andI can look for those buzzwords
on their website about Biblebased or scriptures and heresy
or other things that I kind ofknow might make it a place
that's less safe.
Or I might look for indicatorslike the congregational church
has a designation open andaffirming ONA, and I'll be able
(31:43):
to look for churches.
Well, which ones are ONAchurches or in the Presbyterian
church, which ones are more likecongregations or covenant
network of Presbyteriancongregations.
Those are two designations thatchurches can have that indicate
that they're open and affirming.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Okay.
So if people were not in, youknow we're not going to be
emailing you for the informationof what church to go to.
They're looking for a codecalled ONA.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
ONA opened and affirming and the thing that's a
little intimidating, but thebeauty of live stream services
is people really can attendservices anywhere, right, so
it's.
You don't get the community, youdon't get that in person
singing maybe, or the music orthe fellowship but that could be
(32:33):
also a safe entryway is to findone of these open and affirming
congregations that can be asafe place to land.
I also say sometimes it's assimple as looking for a pride
flag hanging outside and I thinkagain, in different geographic
reasons, different geographicareas, there may be more or less
(32:53):
safe to fly a pride flag, but Ido invite students to, even as
simply as that, as you'redriving around town, keep your
eye out for those flags and seewhere those flags are or how
there's, how they're celebratingPride month.
For instance, I just spoke to astudent the other day who's like
it seems so unfair that I haveto go through this process to
(33:15):
find a place that will accept meand I say, yes, it is unfair.
I'm sorry that that is stillthe reality, that there are
Christian churches where LGBTQ,ai people don't feel safe and
that sucks, frankly, and thereare some that do.
So you know.
(33:36):
I just hope that students mightfind that incentive to take
that extra effort to say this isimportant to me and I'm going
to do to make this effort,because it takes some work.
It takes some work and it takessome vulnerability to find a
community that's a good fit.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
But, tracy, I think you know it's kind of goes right
back to the thing you said atthe beginning of this interview,
that you don't have to choose.
It's just going to take alittle effort, and I do.
You know the whole idea ofidentity exploration on all
levels takes effort to figureout.
So I think you're at leasttelling our listeners that you
(34:13):
can do this.
If you want to live a spirituallife and live a life closer to
the divine, there's a path foryou.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Amen, we preach it, christine Preach it.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
We're going to try, because you know it's a myth
that coming out in religiondon't mix.
But they can mix and I thinkyou beautifully gave our
listeners some hope, which is, Ithink, what you wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Yes, and if I could just end, with a quote, so I
wrote it down so I wouldn't getit wrong.
1 John, chapter 4, god is love,and whoever abides in love
abides in God and God abides inthem.
And I believe that that is true.
It is truly all about love, andif someone finds love with
someone in the same genderrelationship, I think the divine
(35:00):
is smiling.
I think God wants love tospread and God wants love to be
shared, and however that happensis a gift.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to join the podcast
today.
I know that it's going to bewell received by our listeners
and I really, really lovetalking to you.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
I'm so happy.
Thank you so much for invitingme and I'm just so grateful for
the time and for the invitationto be here today.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Well, and maybe we'll have you back to talk more
about sex and pleasure in theBible.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Well, thank you to Reverend Tracy Merremusca for
that perspective.
Obviously, I was not a part ofthat interview, so it was really
interesting to listen to itafter the fact.
But you know, I think it justcomes back to the idea that,
even though it might bedifficult to find your place in
multiple spaces especiallyspaces that you know have a long
(36:06):
history of being difficult tobe yourself in, both religion
and in LGBTQ, both spaces thatare hard sometimes, I think, to
you know really fully find youridentity within.
There is hope for that andthere is a way to find a way to
be comfortable with youridentity LGBTQ, religious and
otherwise.
As a side note, there is a greatepisode about this exact
(36:29):
concept in the series SexEducation, which we talk about
all the time On this show.
But actually a lot of the lastseason, which just wrapped up,
is tackling the idea of identity, sexual identity and religion.
So if this is a topic that isof interest to you, I also
highly encourage you to watchseason four of Sex Education on
Netflix.
(36:49):
Again, we're just promoingNetflix next week, but it is.
It does tackle this exact ideaand how to find that sort of
harmony between your identitiesand your life.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
All right, well, wonderful and, as we like to say
, that's another myth, that's abad one.
So thanks to our guests andthank you to our listeners for
tuning in and tuning next weekfor another episode of Sex I
Debunked and remember to submitthe myths and topics you'd like
us to discuss.
We want to know what you wantto learn about and have a good
(37:23):
national coming out there.
That's right.
Take care everyone.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Bye now.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Thanks for tuning in for this week's episode of Sex I
Debunked During the course ofour podcast.
We have limited time together,which means that, unfortunately,
many identities, groups andmovements may not be represented
each week.
The field of sexuality andgender orientations, identities
and behaviors are changing,growing rapidly, and we remain
committed to being as inclusiveas possible.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Please remember that all of us, including us, are
learning in this area and mayoccasionally slip up.
We ask that we all continue tobe kind to one another so that
we can create a truly inclusiveand accepting environment.
As always, if you have anyquestions or comments, please
feel free to reach out to us atsexeddebunked on Instagram,
Facebook and Twitter.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Sex I Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media in
Providence, rhode Island.
Our sound producer is EzraWinters, with production
assistance from Shea Weintraub.
Hi, this is Sex Ed Debunked, a cross-generational
podcast hosted by motherdaughter duo, christine and
Shannon Curley.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Every episode, we tackle a new myth about sex,
sexuality and pleasure, and useresearch and expert insights to
debunk stereotypes andmisinformation from the bedroom
and beyond.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
In 2022, we won the American Association of
Sexuality Educators, Counselorsand Therapists Award for Best
Podcast and also managed to nottotally freak out our family and
friends along the way.
We believe in healthy,sex-positive, pleasure-focused
sex education, backed by realresearch and real experience.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter
at Sex Ed Debunked or email usat SexEdDeBunked at gmailcom to
share your sex miseducationtales and the myths you'd like
to hear us debunk.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hi, welcome to Sex.
Ed Debunked across-generational podcast about
sex positivity, sexual healthand my personal favorite
rendition of the Bachelor, whichis how many of the
ex-bachelorettes are now queerLove that.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Huge fan of that.
Pretty appropriate for anational coming out day huh.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
It is really great.
I really am enjoying the GoldenBachelor.
They're like super good.
Jerry, You're very cute.
You're very 70-something yearsold.
What I'm really loving is thesubplot of how many women,
specifically who have been onthe Bachelor series, are now
dating women of the same sex oridentifying as queer or whatever
.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I'm like this is the plot that no one expected, but
I'm really here for Didn't thereshow you already watched that
has that kind of a queerbachelorette that you were
telling me about?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, the ultimatum on, netflix decided to do a
queer version.
I think that they should justdo that for every single one of
their reality dating shows isintroduce a queer version.
Although I was saying yesterdayto my girlfriend that the show
Love is Blind.
The premise of it is you spendthe days in the pods and you
don't see each other until youdecide that you want to be
together.
It's great and whatever.
(01:50):
I'm like yeah, but that showwould be so much longer if it
was lesbians, because lesbianstalk for 12 hours on that.
Anyway, in one of the episodesthis woman goes oh my God, have
you ever been on a four-hourdate before?
The guy and my girlfriend and Iboth were like yeah, yeah,
that's every day we're dating.
Yeah, exactly.
So I think more is what I'msaying Netflix, if you can hear
(02:11):
me more.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
All right.
Well then, this week's episode,we're talking about a subject
that we're often brought up onthe show Coming Out, which is
about disclosure to family,friends or other persons in your
life about sexual orientation,gender diversity, maybe
relationship diversity.
But since this episode isscheduled to air on October 11th
(02:34):
, which is National Coming OutDay, we thought we'd discuss
Coming Out from a differentperspective and debunk the myth
that Coming Out and religiondon't mix.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Which is very similar to the myth we did, I think, a
couple seasons ago, which wasjust the idea of that being
LGBTQ and religion don't mix.
So a little education as we do.
National Coming Out Day wasfirst celebrated in 1988, which
actually seems really recent,but over 30 years later it's
still on our calendars.
It was first celebrated on theone-year anniversary of the 1987
(03:07):
National March on Washingtonfor lesbian and gay rights,
which was a day chosen to honorthe brave LGBTQ individuals who
decided to come out and liveopenly.
It started out as just sort ofan awareness event, like hey
look, gay people exist.
But now the meaning of NationalComing Out Day is really,
really relevant to the LGBTQcommunities themselves.
(03:30):
I myself have posted on NationalComing Out Day and I think
there's varying degrees ofComing Out on National Coming
Out Day, whether it's justcoming out officially or the
yearly reminder to your peoplelike hey, by the way, I identify
this way, yeah, it's reallyimportant and it can kind of run
the gamut right.
It can be a really big deal ofintroducing yourself, it can be
(03:54):
introducing your partner, it canbe a huge challenge or it can
be really easy, and it dependson who you are and where you are
in your journey.
But the importance of NationalComing Out Day, much like Pride
Month itself, is just to givefolks who identify with an LGBTQ
community an opportunity to saywho they really are and be
honest and truthful about whothey are and hopefully feel seen
(04:14):
and a part of a community indoing so.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Yeah, doing a little bit of research for this episode
, I actually found some recentarticles talking about the
difficulty that is still withthe older community, because, as
we talk about sexual fluidity,we have older folks who have
been known a certain way alltheir lives, which makes coming
out even trickier than, say, fora young person.
(04:39):
But one space in particularwhere coming out may still be
extremely difficult is aroundreligion and religious
communities.
Lgbtq folk may have a uniquestruggle when their church is
openly and expressly against whothey are and who they love, to
the extent of telling LGBT folkthey're damned to hell, which,
of course, is pretty harsh.
(05:01):
Yeah, I don't love that.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
No, not great.
Yeah, I mean it's a fear for areason.
It's one of the most longestablished spaces where being
gay is not okay.
I don't know, I've heard it allthe time the old Adam and Eve,
not Adam and Steve, but right.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Well, and to help us with this discussion, I
interviewed Reverend TracyMerremusca, who's the Protestant
chaplain at Wesleyan Universitywho regularly counsel students
about coming to terms with theirsexual identity and their
church, and I chatted with herbasically to see what her advice
was around religion and LGBTQand to speak about the idea that
(05:46):
sometimes young people feellike they have to well, all
people feel like they have tochoose between their religious
identity and their sexualidentity, so she really became
the perfect guest expert forthis spot.
So today we're welcoming aguest who is a reverend at
(06:08):
Wesleyan University.
I will call you Reverend Tracy,but what is your full?
Speaker 4 (06:12):
name.
I'm Reverend Tracy Merremusca.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Well, welcome to the podcast.
We're really excited to haveyou here and I know you're going
to provide a wealth ofinformation to our listeners.
So first, should I call youReverend or Tracy?
Tracy would be perfect, okay.
So, tracy, tell us a little bitabout your background as a
Reverend.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
Thank you so much.
I'm so excited to be here,christine, and I think I want to
start by dispelling one mythabout me being an expert,
because I am very, verypassionate about issues of faith
and justice and how they relate, and I also want to acknowledge
my location as a cisgenderedwhite woman who's married to a
man, and I recognize that I haveblind spots related to that
(06:57):
identity.
But as far as my identity as aminister is concerned, I grew up
in a progressive Presbyterianchurch which was part of the
Presbyterian church USA and itwas a very affirming and
encouraging place.
I loved church and when Igraduated from high school, I
(07:18):
went to the Coast Guard Academyand that was a time for me that
was riddled really withdifficulty and I also during
that time experienced trauma andI realized that my faith for me
helped me persevere.
It was instrumental in mestaying centered, feeling well
and being able to get throughsome very difficult times.
(07:40):
So it was because of thatrecognition of how faith played
a role in my well being thatwhen I had an opportunity to go
to seminary and make this myfull time vocation, that's when
I knew I really that's what Ineeded to do.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So it's a really a true calling for you coming from
, not just from your whole lifeexperience.
So this was not something youweren't raised in a family of
ministers, right?
Speaker 4 (08:04):
In fact I became Presbyterian kind of by
happenstance, because it was thechurch with the best programs
closest to my house.
So and also I had I was amarine scientist, so really
being a minister wasn't evennecessarily on my radar screen.
But I ended up having a marinescientist dream job and it was
so fun and entertaining and itwas missing the element of
(08:26):
fulfillment.
And when I felt most fulfilledwas when I was journeying with
others who were struggling orwere having difficulty and
helping them find sources ofhope and helping them connect
with whatever it was that gavethem meaning and purpose.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
I kind of think that's an interesting dichotomy
marine scientist aka reference.
Well done, presbyterian.
I think you're an expert in alot of things now I know a
little bit about a lot of things.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It may be an expert in nothing, but that's okay.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
It kind of weirdly reminds me of that Seinfeld
episode where George said he wasa marine biologist.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Yes, saying I'm a minister definitely doesn't work
as well.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
So tell us how you ended up at Wesleyan.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
So I was doing clinical chaplaincy.
So I knew from the beginningthat I really genuinely felt
called to ministry in aninterfaith setting to people who
were in crisis or experiencinghardship or difficulty.
I loved my job.
I worked in hospice and then Iproceeded to get pregnant and
have two children and then tooksome time off.
So along the way a friend said,hey, this job at Wesleyan might
(09:39):
be great for you because it'spart time and has the summers
off, this job and chaplaincy.
And I said, oh, that soundsconvenient.
And I really applied for itinitially because it seemed to
work well with my schedule.
But I immediately fell in lovewith the students and with the
opportunity to help peoplediscover sources of strength and
support, to help studentsfigure out who they are, away
(10:02):
from their families of origin,and to help people figure out
what do they believe.
They maybe didn't realize thatthere were other ways of
thinking about faith and beliefand life and love and
relationships and gender and allof these things.
So it's been such a joy to beable to walk with people through
those periods of discernmentand questioning.
So how long have you been atWesleyan?
(10:25):
So I've been.
I was at Wesleyan for eightyears.
I left for a couple of yearsduring COVID to serve a local
church and then I my positionwas open and I reapplied for my
position because I really didmiss this time, especially after
COVID.
I think young adults, as manyhave heard, are struggling.
(10:48):
It's been hard for them in somevery, very unique ways, so I
just felt like it was where Ineeded to be.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
Perfect, perfect.
Well, I'm so glad you're here.
I'm so new at Wesleyan and Iwas thrilled to meet you, almost
like my second week, yeah, soI'm glad to know you're here for
everyone.
So we are having you on thisepisode for a reason.
It's going to air on coming outday, which is October 11th,
(11:16):
national Coming Out of Day, and,as we know, coming out and
religion have a very complicatedrelationship, especially people
in certain communities.
Religious communities mighthave issues coming out to family
, friends and also community,which is really challenging.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe students that you're
(11:41):
interacting with these days atWesleyan and what kind of
conversations you have with themabout their experience.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Cool.
Thanks so much.
There are a lot of students whodo come, and I remember this
from my college days too.
I remember being shocked thatpeople listen to country music.
I'm from Jersey, but people inmy neighborhood didn't listen to
country music, so I'm from NewYork.
I can't do this.
I can't do this.
So I think it's just so helpingstudents recognize how much
(12:14):
more there is to the world thanmaybe what they knew growing up.
And what that does affordpeople is an opportunity to
really think more openly andmore expansively about who they
are and how they fit into theworld.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Now, I know that Wesleyan is considered a pretty
liberal university as far asuniversities go, but are you
still hearing concerns fromstudents about their LGBTQ
status and their relationshipwith religion?
Speaker 4 (12:46):
So I think what is a reality at Wesleyan is it is a
very inclusive place andstudents who are LGBTQAI
identified can come here andfind a very, very safe and happy
place to be, and in some casesthat might also liberate them
(13:08):
from the need to kind of jivethe relationship, if you would,
between their religious identityand Wesleyan, because it's very
OK to be here and to not be aperson of faith.
So students will come here andsay, ok, I no longer am a person
of faith or I no longersubscribe to that because I
don't need to or I don't want to, or it's too hard or it's too
(13:28):
complicated.
And that I think becomes a morecommon narrative is that people
come and they, instead ofwrestling with it or finding
their place in a safe and alife-giving community, they
might just set it aside whilethey're here.
I don't even want to say rejectit, but just setting it aside
(13:49):
while they're here.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Is that different from the experience of students?
Maybe that you talked to eightyears ago or 10 years ago when
you were interacting withstudents?
Speaker 4 (14:00):
Historically, I think we would find, especially at a
place like Wesleyan, which was areligious institution at one
point in its history.
Yeah, that's what I mean.
It was a method, yes.
So students came here with areligious identity and maybe
we're then in a place to figureout is this, does this still fit
for me, Is this who I am?
And now I think we're findingmore and more students actually
(14:21):
about half of our studentsself-identify as atheist or
agnostic, and they're comingwithout a tradition and saying
is there something that I'mmissing?
Is there a place I can connect?
Is there a spiritual orreligious community where I can
find belonging and purpose andconnection and I can feel
connected to something greaterthan myself?
(14:42):
So I do think that there mayhave been a bit of an evolution
that way.
I think there are definitelystudents, though, that, as they
set aside their religiousidentity that they grew up with,
it's still part of their beingand it's still something that
they're wrestling with, even ifthey're not actively trying to
(15:04):
figure out.
Where do I fit in with this?
How do I reconcile this?
And so what I hope to do ishave more people engage in that
conversation Instead of settingit aside, maybe saying, ok, well
, how can these two intersectingidentities both be celebrated
at once, instead of needing tocompartmentalize?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
That's fascinating because we do talk on the
podcast and indeed in psychology, about this concept of
intersectionality, where we havedifferent, competing identities
and some that are marginalizedand some that are privileged,
and what I'm hearing you say isthat both of these, for some of
these students, both of theseidentities are quite legitimate
(15:47):
and things that they care deeplyabout.
But for this period of time atWesleyan that they consider a
safer space or, like I like tosay in my class, as a brave
space, they're choosing to putthat religion aside, but yet
they're still coming to you andyou still have a job, even
though you said 50% are agnosticor atheist.
(16:08):
So that, I think, is where yourexperience with the Wesleyan
students can speak to our largeraudience on the podcast about
how you can find a spiritualityeven though you might not have a
particular religious identity.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Absolutely, and my message for your audience is
also to not give up hope.
The biggest thing I want tocommunicate to my students is
you do not have to choose.
There are spiritual andreligious communities that will
love you and appreciate you forexactly who you are, exactly who
(16:45):
you were created to be.
And yeah, sometimes findingthose communities of faith it's
a little bit of work and it's alittle bit annoying, and in
certain geographic areas it's alittle more difficult.
I think we're a little spoiledup here in Connecticut.
But the reality is thosecommunities exist and they
certainly can help people withtheir resilience, with their
(17:08):
holistic well-being, with theirsense of belonging and with a
sense of hope.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So do you feel that students have different
approaches based on thereligious tradition that they're
coming from, or differentconcerns?
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yes.
So one thing I often haveconversations with students
about is this idea that we havetwo relationships.
We have a relationship with thedivine in some cases, if we're
talking about more traditionalparadigms of religion, maybe
with God, the language manypeople use and then, separately,
(17:46):
we have a relationship with aninstitution or with a religious
paradigm, and what I invitestudents to do is try to break
those two things apart.
For many of us, when we weregrowing up, those things were
completely connected.
We can't imagine a relationshipwith the divine apart from a
religious community, maybe thatwe were a part of, but those are
two separate things.
So, celebrating thatrelationship with the divine and
(18:08):
then figuring out what are yourvalues, what do you need, who
makes you feel safe, and thenfinding the paradigm, the
community, the structure withinto which you can plug in and
then deepen your relationshipwith the divine.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
A lot of these students are really.
They're exploring identity onso many different levels, and it
sounds like you're asking toexplore your religious identity
too, and I wouldn't know whereto start.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
It's a hard question and I think the first question I
ask basically is who is God toyou and how do you relate to God
?
And you need to know the answerwithout stopping.
Why does it matter?
And I think, asking people toreflect on those questions.
We hear so often this ideas.
I'm spiritual but not religious.
(19:00):
I think in some cases thosethat's those are folks who are
saying I do believe there'ssomething bigger than myself and
the institutions have been Nota helpful way for me to
associate with that right likeor to Completely.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
I mean I am, I am full confession.
A lot of our listeners knowthis.
I am from a Roman Catholictradition Straight through my
first 12 years of college.
So I took theology, philosophy,and you know, for a large part
of my growing up, you know youdid have, you know God is a
loving God, but then you alsohave it.
(19:38):
You know you do XYZ and you'regoing to hell an internal
demotion.
So those things were reallyhard to coexist and and I think
as a result both of both of myWell, you know, I would say my
one, my daughter Shannon, Ithink she would confess to this
too is probably in that range ofspiritual.
My son, I think he's probablymore like the 50% of Wesleyan
(20:02):
students at this point becauseyou know, being raising Children
in the Catholic Church, you arefocusing a lot on the
institution and the rules, andI'm sure there are other
Religions that are similar.
But the Roman Catholic ChurchCertainly has a certain
reputation in that area and I'msure at Wesleyan you do come
(20:22):
across students from thatbackground and when we talk
about Christianity specificallyand we talk about Jesus, the
last thing Jesus would do isshame people publicly.
Speaker 4 (20:35):
And yet our Institution sometimes get in
this habit of shaming people, orthis Frazeology love the sin
and hate the sinner, which Ifind incredibly offensive.
I agree.
So, in terms of Christianity, Ido have students say well, how
my church taught me X.
And here this scripture, righthere, says this how can you say
(20:57):
that it's okay for me to be meand still be Christian if the
scripture says this?
And I could just spend a Fewseconds talking about that
Please please, please, listeners.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Love, love the nerdy.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
I'm not an expert on scripture, but here's how I
understand scripture to Work inin my life.
I think the scriptures relatedto sexuality are often
overplayed, and so I saw thatthere are over 30,000 verses of
scripture.
Less than 10 of them deal withsame gender sexual activity.
(21:33):
Of those, it's specificallyabout forced sexual relations
that have to do with power.
So if now, if that's theparadigm with which we're making
rules about how of who we canlove and who we can marry,
that's really limited window,right.
(21:55):
Also, I review the scriptureswith all of my heart as a
Presbyterian, we take them very,very seriously.
And also they were written in aspecific time in a specific
place, in a specific context fora specific population of people
.
And I think it's also importantto remember that there are some
parts that are descriptive, thatdescribe what was happening in
(22:17):
the time, that are notProscriptive.
Meaning oh, it's not, it doesn'tmean that this is the, this is
what needs to be happening forthe rest of eternity, but for
this time and place this is veryrelevant, besides the fact that
it was written and transcribedby human beings who had biases
and had their own opinions aboutthings, all men presumably,
(22:39):
just aside Presumption, but Ireally embrace.
Brian Blunt of UnionTheological Seminary said this
in a lecture to that I went tomany, many years ago.
But it stuck with me that theBible and I think this applies
to other scriptures as well, butI don't, I'm not gonna speak
for other religious traditionsthe Bible is a living word that
(22:59):
God can reveal to me newunderstandings and new
interpretations if I prayerfullyengage it and I am earnest in
my Wanting to understand.
I think to say that the Bibleis fixed and God can't do
anything about it to me limitsGod's power.
So I think it's actuallyoffensive to say that the Bible
is literal and one-dimensionaland, taking the Bible literally,
(23:22):
I get very excited about allthis.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
As a legal scholar, it makes me think like, just
like the Constitution.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
Just one amendment.
You could write many books on,but the idea for me is that the
Bible and If you are looking totake it literally, it's really
hard to do that because thereare inherent contradictions
Within it that make taking itliterally impossible.
So what I do tend to do is lookat the general themes,
(23:54):
especially of Jesus's life inministry love and justice, hope
for the oppressed, radicalinclusion and love, and so to me
, to discriminate against peoplefor any reason would be
Antithetical to what Iunderstand to be Jesus's life in
ministry.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Well, and it's always ironic that I think that if you
know, people have said you know, if Jesus Christ was alive
today, he would be shunned as aradical because he was a radical
even in his own time and histeaching.
So even if, if you're not ofthe religious faith to accept
Jesus Christ as our Lord andSavior, as is want to say,
(24:31):
you're still talking about a manwho was preaching something
that was really radical and Ilove how you position that.
As you know, radical ininclusivity, radical love, and I
assume that's pretty much whatyou're telling a lot of your
students.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Yes, and I know from personal experience how damaging
shame can be, and and no oneshould be ashamed for who they
are or how they were created,and Because religion has
provided some consolation in mylife, I want people who are open
(25:05):
to Exploring it to be able toaccess it as well.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
I think it's really interesting that we talk about
so much of this shame and Ialmost feel like, as a chaplain,
it wouldn't be that difficultfor you to just like find
passages from the teachings thatwere exactly the opposite, that
(25:33):
were so inclusive, that were,you know, letting the leper in,
letting the prostitute, you know, wash his feet, like all of
these things would say thatanytime we act from a position
of shame, we are acting contraryto the teachings in the Bible,
and I had really thought aboutit that way of Jesus preaching
(25:53):
not shame.
I mean, we talk about the loveaspect, but the fact that you
know not shame is part of it ispretty huge.
Speaker 4 (25:59):
I think yes and celebrating our belovedness,
celebrating the reality thatwe're all children of God, like
these are all things that no onecan take away from us, even a
leader in a church who has someopinion about same gender
relationships.
Well, you're so right.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
There's a difference between the what would you say
the divine and the institution.
So tell me what kind ofconcrete advice you give to
these students who are coming inlooking for looking for a
lifeline.
It sounds like a way back tosome spiritual part of
themselves.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
Yes, well, before I get to that question, I also
just want to talk a little bitmore about the shame idea, which
is another podcast episodealtogether about sex positivity
in general.
Like, when we look at biblicalrelationships, how hard it would
be to apply them to what we'reliving today.
So if I'm a woman who's havingfertility problems, my husband,
(26:59):
if he were to go and have sexwith my best friend and father a
few children with her, thatwould not be okay, right and
like that was just totally whatused to happen.
So trying to apply biblicalrelationships and biblical mores
related to intimacy to the waywe live today is just not
possible.
And when people were gettingmarried, when they were 12 years
(27:22):
old, would I say that theyshould have sex before marriage?
Probably not right, but likethe fact that people Maybe not
get married before 12.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Right.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
But if now people are getting married at 35 and 40 or
choosing to not get married forwhatever reason, to say that
they don't deserve intimacy tome seems unreasonable.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
So anyway, that's a whole different subject.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
But let's get back to your question about what advice
to like.
I don't mind going down thoserabbit holes, tracy, because I
think it's really important,because the more we you know,
this is all, this podcast allabout sex positivity and trying
to let go of what you know thesocial expectations are, and it
kind of goes to your point oflike.
We shouldn't be looking at theBible as a literal document.
It's not some recipe, how tohow you know the rules of life.
(28:12):
It's more about the broaderthemes.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
Right and it's so life giving and so encouraging
and so positive.
But if it's read that way, sowhat advice do I give?
I again, I invite people toreally look seriously at their
relationship with the divine andwhat that means for them, and
(28:37):
and trying to break that awayfrom the institution.
And that does not mean that wedon't grieve, and that's an
important part.
There are some communities offaith that you're never going to
convince them of all of what Ijust shared about scriptural
authority and context.
And to be to leave that faithcommunity is a source of pain
(29:00):
for many, many people, so I'mnot diminishing that by any
means.
And also there is an invitationto grieve that and also find a
community that uplifts andcelebrates who you are, and so I
do spend time working withstudents through that.
What does it mean to you knowespecially as you know a person
(29:23):
I don't identify as Catholic,but a lot of times Catholic
people do is very much who youare to say, oh, what does it
mean for me to say I'm notCatholic anymore or I now attend
this other church?
So in my Protestant church wehad people we call the affiliate
members because they wereCatholic parishioners who
weren't ready to not be Catholicanymore and it was like we
(29:45):
didn't care.
We're like, we don't care whatyou call yourself.
Be an affiliate member, be afull member, we don't care.
It was just an opportunity forthem to feel loved and to not
feel like they had to givesomething up or disappoint their
great grandmother, who died, orwhatever reasons for which we
feel connected to our spiritualand religious identity.
(30:06):
It is hard to let that go.
So that's one piece of advice Igive.
The second is just talking tostudents about scripture and
what it means to them and invitethem to think differently about
how it can be interpreted.
And also I invite students toenter into spiritual or
religious life in kind of safeways.
(30:28):
Okay, and so what does thatmean?
It could mean the Unitarian,universalist Church, for
instance.
It is a.
It's a church that welcomeseverybody.
I went to service one time andI have Jewish people there and
Christian people there andBuddhist people here, secular
humanists here.
And you can just be together incommunity and kind of work
through what do I believe andwhere do I fit in?
(30:48):
And it is generally speaking ofan amazingly safe place for
LGBTQAI identified people.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
That's Unitarian, universalist.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
And the United Church of Christ and the Presbyterian
Church USA also have open andaffirming churches as do the
Episcopal Church and otherProtestant denominations.
One of my students said theother day but how do I know
which one?
And I think that is a veryvalid question.
So I tell students, you tell mewhere you're doing your
(31:20):
internship or where you'respending your summer and I will
send you a list of churches andI can look for those buzzwords
on their website about Biblebased or scriptures and heresy
or other things that I kind ofknow might make it a place
that's less safe.
Or I might look for indicatorslike the congregational church
has a designation open andaffirming ONA, and I'll be able
(31:43):
to look for churches.
Well, which ones are ONAchurches or in the Presbyterian
church, which ones are more likecongregations or covenant
network of Presbyteriancongregations.
Those are two designations thatchurches can have that indicate
that they're open and affirming.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Okay.
So if people were not in, youknow we're not going to be
emailing you for the informationof what church to go to.
They're looking for a codecalled ONA.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
ONA opened and affirming and the thing that's a
little intimidating, but thebeauty of live stream services
is people really can attendservices anywhere, right, so
it's.
You don't get the community, youdon't get that in person
singing maybe, or the music orthe fellowship but that could be
(32:33):
also a safe entryway is to findone of these open and affirming
congregations that can be asafe place to land.
I also say sometimes it's assimple as looking for a pride
flag hanging outside and I thinkagain, in different geographic
reasons, different geographicareas, there may be more or less
(32:53):
safe to fly a pride flag, but Ido invite students to, even as
simply as that, as you'redriving around town, keep your
eye out for those flags and seewhere those flags are or how
there's, how they're celebratingPride month.
For instance, I just spoke to astudent the other day who's like
it seems so unfair that I haveto go through this process to
(33:15):
find a place that will accept meand I say, yes, it is unfair.
I'm sorry that that is stillthe reality, that there are
Christian churches where LGBTQ,ai people don't feel safe and
that sucks, frankly, and thereare some that do.
So you know.
(33:36):
I just hope that students mightfind that incentive to take
that extra effort to say this isimportant to me and I'm going
to do to make this effort,because it takes some work.
It takes some work and it takessome vulnerability to find a
community that's a good fit.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
But, tracy, I think you know it's kind of goes right
back to the thing you said atthe beginning of this interview,
that you don't have to choose.
It's just going to take alittle effort, and I do.
You know the whole idea ofidentity exploration on all
levels takes effort to figureout.
So I think you're at leasttelling our listeners that you
(34:13):
can do this.
If you want to live a spirituallife and live a life closer to
the divine, there's a path foryou.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
Amen, we preach it, christine Preach it.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
We're going to try, because you know it's a myth
that coming out in religiondon't mix.
But they can mix and I thinkyou beautifully gave our
listeners some hope, which is, Ithink, what you wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Yes, and if I could just end, with a quote, so I
wrote it down so I wouldn't getit wrong.
1 John, chapter 4, god is love,and whoever abides in love
abides in God and God abides inthem.
And I believe that that is true.
It is truly all about love, andif someone finds love with
someone in the same genderrelationship, I think the divine
(35:00):
is smiling.
I think God wants love tospread and God wants love to be
shared, and however that happensis a gift.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to join the podcast
today.
I know that it's going to bewell received by our listeners
and I really, really lovetalking to you.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
I'm so happy.
Thank you so much for invitingme and I'm just so grateful for
the time and for the invitationto be here today.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Well, and maybe we'll have you back to talk more
about sex and pleasure in theBible.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Well, thank you to Reverend Tracy Merremusca for
that perspective.
Obviously, I was not a part ofthat interview, so it was really
interesting to listen to itafter the fact.
But you know, I think it justcomes back to the idea that,
even though it might bedifficult to find your place in
multiple spaces especiallyspaces that you know have a long
(36:06):
history of being difficult tobe yourself in, both religion
and in LGBTQ, both spaces thatare hard sometimes, I think, to
you know really fully find youridentity within.
There is hope for that andthere is a way to find a way to
be comfortable with youridentity LGBTQ, religious and
otherwise.
As a side note, there is a greatepisode about this exact
(36:29):
concept in the series SexEducation, which we talk about
all the time On this show.
But actually a lot of the lastseason, which just wrapped up,
is tackling the idea of identity, sexual identity and religion.
So if this is a topic that isof interest to you, I also
highly encourage you to watchseason four of Sex Education on
Netflix.
(36:49):
Again, we're just promoingNetflix next week, but it is.
It does tackle this exact ideaand how to find that sort of
harmony between your identitiesand your life.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
All right, well, wonderful and, as we like to say
, that's another myth, that's abad one.
So thanks to our guests andthank you to our listeners for
tuning in and tuning next weekfor another episode of Sex I
Debunked and remember to submitthe myths and topics you'd like
us to discuss.
We want to know what you wantto learn about and have a good
(37:23):
national coming out there.
That's right.
Take care everyone.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Bye now.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Thanks for tuning in for this week's episode of Sex I
Debunked During the course ofour podcast.
We have limited time together,which means that, unfortunately,
many identities, groups andmovements may not be represented
each week.
The field of sexuality andgender orientations, identities
and behaviors are changing,growing rapidly, and we remain
committed to being as inclusiveas possible.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Please remember that all of us, including us, are
learning in this area and mayoccasionally slip up.
We ask that we all continue tobe kind to one another so that
we can create a truly inclusiveand accepting environment.
As always, if you have anyquestions or comments, please
feel free to reach out to us atsexeddebunked on Instagram,
Facebook and Twitter.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Sex I Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media in
Providence, rhode Island.
Our sound producer is EzraWinters, with production
assistance from Shea Weintraub.
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