November 8, 2023 • 36 mins
Picture this: You just said "I do" and you're staring at the love of your life. Now what? We'll walk you through it in this episode of Sex Ed Debunked. To celebrate our sound engineer, Ezra's, wedding, we've compiled a heap of insights, research, and personal anecdotes on what it takes to build and maintain a successful marriage. We're talking about everything from being your partner's best friend to the power of routine communication, and the importance of understanding and responding to each other's feelings.
Have you ever wondered how some couples keep the spark alive? How do they navigate through the challenges and come out stronger on the other side? We're unmasking the secrets to making your relationship not just survive, but thrive. In this episode, we're breaking down the art of positive communication, the essence of overcoming the "honeymoon phase," and the tact of choosing your battles wisely. We'll also discuss the impact of negative comments and projection, and reveal ways to sprinkle positive feedback into your everyday conversations.
But there's more. We venture further into the love labyrinth, guiding you on how to cultivate a relationship pulsating with appreciation and gratitude. Discover why it's crucial to express gratitude to your partner regularly, why hobbies outside your relationship are essential for self-expansion, and the magic of shared adventures. We wrap things up with the role of open communication in understanding your partner's needs and the magic ingredients for maintaining a romantic and sexual connection in your relationship. So grab your headphones and tune in for an enlightening journey into the world of successful relationships.
Follow us on social @sexeddebunked or send us a message at sexeddebunked@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christine (00:03):
Hi, this is Sex Ed Debunked, a cross-generational
podcast hosted bymother-daughter duo, christine
and.
Shannon (00:09):
Shannon Curley.
Every episode we tackle a newmyth about sex, sexuality and
pleasure, and use research andexpert insights to debunk
stereotypes and misinformationfrom the bedroom and beyond In
2022,.
We won the American Associationof Sexuality Educators,
counselors and Therapists Awardfor Best Podcast and also
managed to not totally freak outour family and friends along
the way.
Christine (00:29):
We believe in healthy , sex-positive, pleasure-focused
sex education, backed by realresearch and real experience.
Shannon (00:34):
Follow us on Instagram, facebook or Twitter at Sex Ed
Debunked or email us atSexEdDeBunked at gmailcom to
share your sex miseducationtales and the myths you'd like
to hear us debunk.
Thanks for listening.
Hi, this is Sex.
Ed Debunked across-generational podcast about
sexual health, sex positivityand well wishes to our amazing
sound engineer, ezra, who'sgetting married this month.
Christine (00:56):
Woo-hoo, getting married in Nola, no less, that's
right.
Well, we were originallyplanning on doing this week's
episode about infidelity, and wewill have that episode coming
out in the next few weeks, sostay tuned.
But in honor of Ezra's upcomingnuptials, we thought we'd jump
into the research about whatmakes a successful marriage.
Shannon (01:17):
Yes, rather than focus on what makes a failed marriage,
we thought it might be nicer totalk about what makes a
successful marriage.
Isn't that nice of us?
And while not all marriages arethe same, there is definitely
some tried and true advice fromthe internet and beyond that
does set you up for maritalsuccess.
Christine (01:34):
That's true, and the reason it's far and wide is that
it works, and I can tell you assomeone who's been married for
37 plus years.
It's good to take advice whereyou can get it and always keep
working on your marriage.
Shannon (01:47):
And I can tell you, as someone who's witnessed that
marriage for 30 years, thatmarriage isn't always easy, but
it doesn't always have to behard either and it can be really
fun and a good marriage issomething really beautiful to
witness.
Christine (01:58):
Aw, thanks, shan.
Yeah, so, ezra, in honor ofyour wedding, let's jump into
the research on how to build amarriage that lasts.
Shannon (02:08):
And, unsurprisingly, of course, I did a nice little
dive into the interwebs.
But I did a mix of researchacross Reddit, the Gottman
Institute, other actualreputable psychological sources
and put together a list of whatseems to be the internet's
agreed upon advice.
So we will jump into that list.
But then, mom, you can jump inwith your research as we go
(02:29):
along.
Does that sound good?
Of course, cool.
So first up and I think we allhave heard this before but treat
your partner like they are yourfriend.
You often hear that yourpartner should be your best
friend, but what does thatreally mean?
To treat your partner like agood friend?
It's not just like let's hangout and go to the movies, but
it's also being nice to eachother.
(02:49):
This was actually one of thetop on Reddit.
They call it upvoting, but itwas one of the most upvoted
comments in the marriage sectionwas be nice, just be nice to
each other, and I think that'simportant.
It's like, yeah, you shouldlike your partner, not just love
them.
Christine (03:07):
Well, and when you and Chris threw us our 30th
anniversary party, that wasexactly what I said.
After all these years, I stilllike Dad, my husband and the
research actually bears this outthat I think the advice that
everybody hears is communication.
But the research bears out thatit's also this routine
(03:30):
communication, not just thecommunication over the big stuff
, but the quiet day-to-daycommunication that keeps you
connected and keeps that bondgoing.
So there's actually I found a2023 study that just came out
that said routine communicationwas highly related to the
(03:51):
day-to-day relationshipsatisfaction.
So it's not necessarily greatjob, it might just be so.
How was your day-to-day honey?
Shannon (04:03):
And that was actually one of the.
It's funny because that was oneof the things.
That was it the research forthe Gottman Institute, which
we've talked about Gottmanbefore, but Gottman's one of the
more well-known relationaltherapists, relational
institutes.
You can be Gottman Institutecertified in couples counseling.
But it said, expressinginterest is huge and saying how
(04:24):
was your day is such a minorthing.
But if that's your friend, youwant to know how their day was.
And it's funny because theroutine communication that
wasn't mentioned in thatresearch but that you're saying
that this research mentions thatI actually have a daily
notification on my phone to askmy partner how their day was,
because I don't want to forgetto ask that, Not because I'm not
already interested, but becauseestablishing that communication
(04:46):
and showing that constantinterest is an important part of
maintaining a healthyrelationship.
Christine (04:50):
Well, and I think what happens when you have been
in a longer-term relationshipthe flow of the day gets in the
way and then all of a sudden youcan get into that situation
where you're not noticing thatperson.
So routine communication saysto your partner I'm noticing you
and I still care what youreveryday looks like.
Shannon (05:09):
Absolutely, and I actually lead really well to the
second sort of mutually agreedupon between the therapists and
the internet nerds Top 10 thingsyou need for a successful
marriage is being responsive toyour partner's needs and
feelings, which really kind ofjust boils down to listening.
Christine (05:28):
Yeah, the research in this is really interesting.
The listening actually is abigger component than the
talking.
I think some of us inrelationships tend to be the one
to want to give advice or, incertain circumstances, maybe
solve a problem, but it'sactually just taking the time to
(05:48):
listen so that a person mightjust want an event.
Your partner might not want asolution.
Your partner might not want tohear your side of the story.
Your partner just might want tohave someone to give them a hug
and listen, and that's that.
And that shows that in thatcontext, the quality of the
(06:10):
communication matters more thanthe quantity.
Shannon (06:15):
And that's that.
Responsiveness is understandingthat your partner's needs and
feelings can change and shiftand what they might need from
you in the moment might bedifferent.
And sometimes it's as easy asasking when they start venting
to you okay, are you venting tome because you just need someone
to vent to you, or do you wantme to try to provide a solution?
Christine (06:34):
And I think, if you're learning communication
styles and we know as well, beenwith his lady for a while
However, communication styles dochange throughout your life
course and your needs changethroughout your life course, and
part of communication is havingthat radical honesty of saying
this is what I need right nowand being able to trust your
(06:57):
partner to give you what youneed in that moment.
Shannon (06:59):
Absolutely Three be physically affectionate.
You just mentioned it when wewere talking about needs and
feelings, but sometimes someonejust needs a hug.
Yes, Mm-hmm.
Christine (07:11):
And I found another study just published in 2023
that is talking aboutaffectionate touch, kind of like
the routine communication ofalong the same lines is like
this routine touching amongpartners.
So not, and despite the factthat this is sex ed debunked,
(07:31):
not sexual touching, buttouching that acknowledges that
your partner is there.
And the research shows that thenumber of affectionate touch is
actually very strong, relatednot just to sharing activities
in the present but yourintention to share positive
activities events in the future.
(07:53):
So this affectionate touch hasa dual purpose in the moment and
how you evaluate yourrelationship going forward.
Shannon (08:03):
Well, that's interesting because another one
of the articles that I read wastalking about those quote
unquote bids for connection iswhat that's referred to as it's
like when you want to be held oryou want to be touched in a
physical way, and interestinglythey did this survey of
newlyweds and their first liketwo years of marriage and the
(08:26):
responsiveness to bids forconnection in successful
marriages was 86% of the time,but for the unsuccessful couples
, the couples that got divorcedafter years of marriage, only
33% of the time were those bidsfor connection responded to.
Christine (08:43):
Yeah.
So affectionate touch has anumber of different layers.
One is responsiveness and theother is just kind of simply
just quietly touching yourpartner, like if your partner's
doing the dishes, just walkingup and touching their shoulder
and maybe grabbing a dish towel.
Back to that, our conversationsabout chore play right.
(09:03):
But one of the studies wasinteresting.
It was dealing with couplestherapy and couples that were
struggling with theirrelationship satisfaction and
the intervention was simplyasking them and requiring them
to touch each other more.
Shannon (09:21):
And to your point, simple things right, like when
you're driving in the cartogether, hold their hand while
you're driving.
Christine (09:27):
Unless you're driving , stick shift and then be you
know, but then Go over and touchmy hair while I'm driving, you
know.
Shannon (09:34):
Yeah, there's ways to display affection and yeah, I
just think that's it's a reallyimportant one and that's again
one of the things that theGottman Institute really focuses
on is the six second kiss oncea day.
They say you should try toengage in a six second kiss.
That's just like fully engagedand not distracted, and just
really focusing on that momentand then and there's similar
(09:55):
subject studies on the length ofthe hug as well.
Yeah, and there's.
I mean, of course there'sdifferent research and different
numbers and whatever, butthere's, like you know, seven
hugs a day is the appropriatenumber of hugs to feel like you
are filled by your physicaltouch.
And whether you believe it'sseven or five, or 10 or 20, the
point is, if you can establishthose physical connections, it
will improve your intimacy andit will improve your connection
(10:17):
to your partner.
Christine (10:18):
Well, and in this research study that I was
mentioning, shannon, what theyfound was that after this two
week intervention, where thecouples who were struggling just
learned how to touch each othermore in a non-sexual way, at
the end of that two week periodthey actually had more positive
evaluations of not just theirrelationship but their partner
(10:40):
too.
Shannon (10:41):
Mm-hmm yeah, it's interesting Moving into, I think
, something that we've certainlybrought up before on the
podcast.
But handling conflict andconflict's so interesting
because I remember one of thebiggest conversation points when
I was getting my masters incommunications was why we all
associate conflict withnegativity.
(11:02):
You know, conflict has anegative connotation.
People assume that conflict isbad, it means that you're
arguing, it means that you'refighting.
But the truth is that there issuch thing as positive conflict
and that just boils down to howyou communicate around conflict.
So, unsurprisingly, in asuccessful marriage you need to
know how to handle conflict in agentle and a positive way.
(11:22):
And Reddit, in its occasionalprofundity, said, of course,
pick your battles, let things go.
But then so many people upvoteddrop your ego.
If you are going to, you'regoing to deal with conflict.
There is never going to be arelationship in this world,
romantic or otherwise, where youdo not occasionally experience
conflict.
And if you can drop your egoand you can see yourself as a
(11:45):
teammate trying to work througha conflict with your partner,
then you can handle that in agentle and positive way.
Christine (11:52):
Well and actually relationships, research and
people who study counseling andclinical relationship work will
tell you that the absence ofconflict is really a problem,
because that usually means thatthere's a lack of communication
and probably some bubblingresentment over the lack of the
communication.
(12:12):
And, as we like to I love toquote Brene Brown choose the
uncomfortable conversation overresentment, and it's about
learning how to have aconversation around your
conflict rather than tapping itdown, tapping it down, tapping
it down and then letting itexplode, Because usually the
argument over leaving the emptymilk carton in the refrigerator
(12:37):
is not about the empty milkcarton in the refrigerator at
all.
Shannon (12:43):
Well, and to your point , if you are not having a
difficult conversation or you'reavoiding talking about
something because you know Idon't want to ruin things,
they're perfect, or I justdidn't want to upset them, think
about what that really means.
Because if you don't want toquote, unquote ruin things or
you don't want to upset them, isthat a safe space for
communication?
And if it's not, figure out away to build that safe space and
(13:04):
maybe that's gentle?
You know, and that's one of thewords that came up in this one
of the articles was gentlenessis figure out how to have a soft
, open and how to be gentle withyour communication about
conflict, because, of course, weall have our own relational
histories and our own, you know,of course.
Yeah reasons why, exactly?
Reasons why it's difficult tocommunicate about certain things
(13:26):
.
And personally, I've had thisproblem too, where I have, you
know, fought to preserve thehoneymoon stage for so long and
then realized that the reasonwhy I had to fight for the
honeymoon stage was because weweren't on a honeymoon.
There were things that werewrong and I was preserving it
and even in my most recentrelationship, that I am very
confident and very happy and Ihad to overcome that personal
hurdle of like, hey, wait, whyam I not talking about this?
(13:48):
And it wasn't because mypartner isn't trustworthy or
isn't supportive and hasn'tcreated a safe space.
It's because I was so used tocreating a fabricated honeymoon
phase that I fell into thathabit.
But for a successful marriageand a successful partnership,
you have to overcome thediscomfort and have the
difficult conversation, becauseit's what's going to pave the
way for positive conflict.
Christine (14:10):
Well, and I also, you know.
The other point is to chooseyour battles.
You know you don't want to havea battle over everything, but
you still have to have battlesoccasionally because you're two
different people living twodifferent lives and you know
you're going to havedisagreements and you're going
to have things that are notperfectly aligned.
Shannon (14:27):
Well, pick your battles so that you don't go to war
Exactly the ultimate war, right,womp, womp, womp.
But another one of the you knowagain, reddit's great for very
like commonplace summaries ofhow things can be managed.
But one of the comments waslearn how to count to 10.
Yeah, if you're about to blowup, learn how to count to 10,
(14:49):
because in those 10 very longseconds you give yourself the
platitude to decide not to havethat argument if it's not worth
it.
You know count to 10.
Okay, is this worth having aconflict over?
Am I really upset about thisthing that I'm about to blow up
over?
Is it really the milk cartonthat I'm upset about, or should
I take a deep breath and returnto this conversation later, when
I'm not mad about the milkcarton, but I want to talk about
(15:09):
what it is I'm actually upsetabout Well, and there's a real
important thing right there,shannon is.
Christine (15:14):
Sometimes, you know, difficult conversations need
their space, and it's similarthat you know.
Reddit says count to 10.
And when I took stressmanagement as part of my masters
, it was the stop method STOP,take a breath, observe and then
proceed.
And that is applicable to notjust your stress but also to how
(15:36):
to interact with a partner.
And to go back to Gottman'sresearch, gottman did some
research observing partners inrelationships and how they
interacted, and it was anobservational study, which means
they were counting the ways andthe phrases that the partners
used to each other and how theyspoke to each other.
(15:58):
And what Gottman found in thelongitudinal research when he
revisited those couples yearsdown the road is that the
couples that used the morenegative comments were more
likely to no longer be together.
So, while positive comments aregreat, refraining from stuff
(16:21):
that's negative is even moreimportant, because I think we've
talked about and I talk aboutthis in the context of
evolutionary psychology ourbrains are trained to remember
the negative Right.
So and negative has more impact.
Shannon (16:36):
Well, and I think there's two things to unpack a
little bit there.
One is that when you're withyour romantic partner, when
you're with an intimate partner,it's easier to say the negative
things because the filter thatyou would otherwise put on with
other people you don'tnecessarily have with your
intimate partner.
So you're more likely tocomplain and you're more likely
to have negative things andyou're more likely to project on
them frankly.
(16:56):
But two, it's not just intimaterelationships.
To your point, the brain ispredisposed to process
negativity and hold on to it.
And in fact, again in mycommunications research, we talk
about mean world syndrome allthe time, which is the news is
always talking about negativethings, and so we have this idea
that the world is so, sonegative.
(17:16):
And of course there isnegativity in the world, but we
don't hear about the positiveand we retain the negative Right
.
And so, within and without ofyour relationships, inside and
outside of those relationships,that's how our brain works.
Christine (17:28):
Well, and you think about conversation, shannon.
Someone will say you know 10good things about you and one
minor criticism, and the thingthat we tend to remember is the
criticism.
Shannon (17:39):
Well, that's why they always say when you're
delivering feedback, you shoulddo the compliment sandwich right
.
This was really great.
We could work on this, but Iloved that Because even when you
do that, it doesn't matter howmany pieces of bread you put on
that they're going to rememberthe felling.
Christine (17:52):
Well, you know the compliment sandwich is a good
idea for, you know, anycommunication and intimate
relationships too.
You know, to make sure that youknow leading into your next
thing and expressing yourappreciation for your partner.
You know, appreciate the effortyour partner has been made.
Said, say you know I don't knowthis might be appropriate to me
(18:14):
not leaving messes around thehouse.
You know, say you appreciatethe effort, but maybe a little
bit more needs to be done.
Shannon (18:24):
Right, yeah, and again, like you know, the previous
point was avoid negativity, butthat doesn't mean that you don't
have to also express positivity.
Of course, of appreciation.
Right, and that was another one.
You know, a expressappreciation for your partner
came up across all of theresearch, all of the articles,
all of Reddit, you know, and itis, it's not, it's not hard, you
(18:45):
know, say thank you, you didthe dishes, thank you you poured
my coffee this morning, thankyou.
Christine (18:49):
Well, and that's another thing that I think,
shannon, you know, when you talkabout a new relationship,
everyone's quite attentive tothe new partner.
But once you get establishedand, yes, married, marriage,
marriage gets you to that pointwhere you know, sometimes you
forget the appreciation andsometimes you forget the
gratitude and going back tolooking with great interest at
(19:13):
the person that you married andseeing and being grateful for
the fact that you're going toget to live your life with this
person and share some fantasticadventures with them.
And you know to reiterate thatgratitude and that gratefulness
on the day to day will have ahuge impact on your relationship
satisfaction going forward.
Shannon (19:34):
Well, you've been married for 37 years.
How do you remind yourself toshow appreciation?
Because I think it's reallycommon to fall into this is the
way it is.
This is my person and you kindof get comfortable with the fact
that they're, you know, thereand they've always been there
and they're not going anywhere.
So how do you maintain thatattitude?
Christine (19:52):
Well, fortunately fortunately or unfortunately for
me, one of the things thatEsther Perrell would say about
you know, an appreciation foryour partner is distance.
And since I've been spending alot of my time in Connecticut
over the last few years, I haveproximate distance and so when
you leave a person and come backto them, you see them in a new
(20:13):
light.
But for those people who don'tleave their partner and come
back to them on a regular basis,like I do, you can still create
that distance in your mind.
And when you take a step backand even just walk to the
doorway of a room and look atyour partner from across the
room and look at them with neweyes and realize like wow, look
(20:36):
at the.
Look at the lilt of their smile, look at the glint in their eye
, look at the the you know theexpressiveness when I watch them
typing or when I watch theminteracting at work.
And it's that distance thatgives you that moment to say,
hey, you're pretty amazing andI'm really grateful that you're
in my life.
Shannon (20:56):
Yeah, I love that.
It's funny.
My girlfriend just moved inwith me and I find myself
already doing that where I'mlike like hey, over here doing
her job, but I'm like what acool person.
Christine (21:07):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and that's a great practice.
You know, for any relationship,whether it's a new relationship
, a new marriage or over acourse of several years.
And you know it's funny.
You know you mentioned, youknow, me and daddy have been
married a long time, but we havea lot of friends who have been
married a long time and theywould say the same thing.
You know keep appreciating thewonderful things that your
(21:28):
partner is in your life and youknow the fact that you get to
live an adventure with them.
Shannon (21:35):
Yeah, two pieces of Reddit feedback that I think
resonate with that.
One is remember that you areboth people and you are each
other's person, but you're alsoboth your own complex,
individual, unique person andsimilarly, you know it's good to
have your own thing.
You don't necessarily have togo get your PhD and live in a
different state, but you know,having your own hobbies, having
(21:58):
your own thing.
It's good to you know whetherit's playing sports or it's
going to an art club or you'rein a book club or whatever it is
.
If you each have your own sortof independent thing, it always
makes sure that there's a fresh,you know, topic of conversation
.
Christine (22:12):
Well, and in social psychology they will talk about
that as self expansion, theability to grow in the
relationship and also growoutside of the relationship.
I think too many relationshipsdon't do well because they are
expected.
They marry their partner andthey expect everything to be
exactly the same.
(22:33):
You know five, 10, 20 yearslater and that is it's just.
It's not going to work.
You want to change as peopleand you want to grow in your
relationship, and those thingsare really, really important to
making it last over the longterm.
Shannon (22:47):
Well, and I think that brings us back to you know one,
the conversation of beingteammates and being partners
like support each other throughthose explorations, support each
other through those hobbies.
It also brings us back to theconversation we had along like
many episodes ago, aboutcompersion and the importance of
supporting things that makeyour partner happy, even if
they're not necessarily yourthing, because that is what
(23:10):
allows them to continue thatself exploration, and if they're
continuing to explorethemselves, they're also opening
themselves up to new ways ofinteracting with you and being
your partner and being yourperson.
Yeah, that's so.
It's mutually beneficial.
Christine (23:23):
However, interestingly, the research also
shows that making time for funand laughter and shared positive
activities is equally importantto a long and satisfying
relationship.
Shannon (23:36):
Well, sure, yeah, that is that makes sense.
But again, because that's yourbest friend, right?
You should want to spend timetogether and you should want to
do fun, happy things.
But again, Reddit advice keepgoing on dates, keep planning
adventures together.
You know, like, just becauseyou're married doesn't mean that
you have to settle into themundane and you should find joy
in the mundane as well.
(23:57):
But that doesn't mean that youput aside the things like
planning adventures and going toconcerts and honestly, that's
something you and dad do reallywell is you, do you?
Obviously both are very busypeople, living your own busy
professional lives, but you planfun.
You go on trips, you go toparties, you go out to the bar
to watch the Patriots play.
(24:19):
It would be very easy to sit athome on your couch with your
feet up and just kind of take adeep breath at the end of the
day, which you do sometimes.
But you also make sure thatyou're doing fun things.
Christine (24:30):
Well, and I think that's an aspect when people ask
about what makes a marriagework, they'll say keep having
fun together.
Well, fun takes planning whenyou're attracted to busy people
with busy lives and planning ispart of the fun.
I mean, for me we always hadthat joke, shannon, growing up
right, that I was the keeper ofthe responsibility and daddy was
(24:51):
the keeper of the fun.
And it's kind of still that wayin a lot of ways, and it's
worked, because that way theresponsible things get taken
care of, but so does the funstuff.
Shannon (25:03):
As long as you know what you're both bring into the
table right.
Set realistic expectations andactually that is though that is
one of the things that was onthe list is set realistic
expectations.
You were.
There are small ways that youwill be able to influence and
impact your partner, but you arenot going to change your
partner at their core.
If they are intrinsically typeB and you are intrinsically type
(25:27):
A, you're just going to have tokind of figure out how to make
that work.
Christine (25:31):
Does that sound familiar?
Shannon (25:32):
I'm married to a type of Z, but but you know there is
a distinction between influenceand impact, and someone being
open to feedback and beingwilling to change parts of
themselves.
But you are not going to changeyour person to their core, so
you need to learn how to lovethem for who they are.
Christine (25:49):
Exactly, Exactly, and and that learning and that
emotional connection.
The research shows that whenyou build that emotional capital
you and your partner actuallythere's greater levels of
forgiveness, which means it's aprotective factor because you
know life happens, stuff's goingto get rough, there's going to
be things you need to deal with,but if you have, as what what
(26:11):
Gottman refers to as the Gottmanbank, full of emotional capital
, you have a greater capacityfor forgiveness and a greater
resilience for the tough timesthat are going to happen in any
long term relationship.
Shannon (26:26):
And then another one that kind of just makes sense,
but solve your solvable problems.
It's like there are things thatyou can kind of get out of the
way, and some of that is ispre-relationships, so you'd hope
you had it sorted by the timeyou married as or?
we're sure you already talkedabout it, but it is important
and it's funny because this issomething that comes up on like
(26:46):
every dating show, right?
It's like these dating showsthat are like married at first
sight, love is blind.
Whatever it is, the ultimatumit's always.
The thing that ruins therelationship is that they get
married on the spot and thenthey're like oh, by the way, do
you have a 401k?
And they're like Nope.
They're like Cool, do you wantto have kids?
Nope, yeah, that's the one thatI've been really good to talk
(27:08):
about yeah.
Or like oh, by the way, I go tochurch four times a week.
You're cool with that, right?
Nope, I'm an atheist.
Like.
These are the things that aresolvable problems If you address
them right away, and bysolvable I do mean don't get
married, but have thoseconversations early.
And, more importantly than thatand this goes into the don't
change thing, like you can'tchange someone thing but if you
(27:29):
have that conversation and theanswer you get is not the answer
you want, don't get there Now,Jan, this is supposed to be a
positive thing.
Christine (27:40):
Ezra has already made the decision.
Shannon (27:42):
Right.
But my point is I have and thisis probably something that comes
up in every type ofrelationship, but it is
something I have absolutelyheard a lot in the queer
community is especially aroundhaving kids, and it's like
you're not going to convincesomeone that they want to have
kids if they don't want to havekids, and that's a really big
one.
But you're also not going toconvince someone who you know
spends their money as soon asthey get it that they should
(28:04):
have a 401k and you're not goingto convince someone that is
devoutly religious that theyshouldn't be.
You know there are fundamentalthings and again, I know this
isn't Ezra and Tess Well wishesto you both.
But it is really important tomention in the context of
getting married is that thereare immovable objects that you
have to be realistic about andbe honest about.
(28:26):
So, as much as relationshipsare about communication and
they're about compromise andthey're about meeting each other
halfway, also, be honest withyourselves about what it is that
you're going to get out of yourrelationship and know what you
can and cannot change.
Christine (28:38):
Yeah, and you know what, shannon, there are the
same.
Similar issues will come up inthe context of a marriage, in
the sense of sometimes problemscan be solved pretty easily and
just take them head on and solvethem.
You know, like, like you know,there are couples these days and
I know it's kind of trendy whohave made a decision, if one
(29:01):
person snores and the otherperson doesn't, to just like OK,
we'll have separate bedrooms,and you know what?
That's OK if it solves yourproblem, right?
Shannon (29:11):
I mean, one of the pieces of Reddit advice was get
two separate blankets for thebed, so you stop arguing over
stealing the blanket at night.
But even like you know, we havea toothbrush holder in our
house that is not big enough tohold the toothbrush container.
Well, let's just get a biggerone instead of like getting
frustrated every time you put itin the toothbrush thing, like,
how about just get a biggerholder?
(29:32):
And those are.
Christine (29:33):
Those are easy ones.
Shannon (29:34):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like OK, you don't likewhole milk and I like skim milk,
whatever, we'll just get awhole milk.
I don't care, like there's justthere again and that's the most
minor battle to not fight.
But it's true, solve yourselfup with problems.
Christine (29:47):
That's good advice.
Ok, what do we have next?
Shannon (29:50):
I don't know what do we have.
Oh well, you know what we havenext.
The most important of all,welcome to Sex at Debunk, the
show where we tell you to havesex.
There you go.
You got to have sex if you'regoing to have a good marriage,
or at least you have to practiceintimacy and connection.
And truly the research doesshow, and also the anecdotal
(30:11):
evidence shows and Reddit showsand every article shows that you
got to maintain that romanticsexual connection and chemistry
if you want to have a successfulmarriage.
Christine (30:21):
And let's parse that out a little bit, shannon
because, we're not talking about.
We're not talking about lookingoutside and and and counting and
marking down how many how manydays a week or how many days a
month.
What we're talking about isachieving a level of sexual
satisfaction, and the researchshows sexual satisfaction, when
(30:42):
it's measured subjectively bythe partners in the relationship
and they have the same levelsof sexual satisfaction, it is
highly, highly correlated withrelationship satisfaction.
Not all the time, sometimes ityou know.
There are other thingsobviously that weigh into
relationship satisfaction, butthere are a couple of things
(31:02):
under sexual satisfaction tokeep in mind.
One is a topic that we talkedabout when we talked about Emily
Nagoski's book Come as you Arewho, by the way, is coming out
with a new book in Januarycalled Come Together, which I
can't wait Right now.
But she has a concept and sheuses a concept called sexual
communal strain, and that isunderstanding that if your
(31:26):
sexual motive is for pleasure,you are going to end up more
satisfied than if your sexualmotive is to reach an end goal.
It also is an understandingthat sometimes one person is
more in the mood than other, andsometimes you give your partner
what you need, what they need,and that's okay Because that's
part of the communal strengthbetween a relationship.
Shannon (31:49):
Yeah, and I mean again, that goes back to good
communication.
It goes back to being honest.
One of the you know posts onReddit said the only secret you
should keep in your relationshipis a present.
Christine (32:01):
It's like although let's talk about it One of the
other, our friends who have alsobeen married over 30 years.
When we asked them the otherday, you know what's the secret?
The answer for the guy actuallywas radical honesty.
And you know, sexualcommunication communication
about what you like and want anddesire can sometimes be an
(32:23):
uncomfortable conversation, butthe honesty about what you want
and need in your body is really,really important to achieve
that.
Sexual communication, sexualsatisfaction.
So radical honesty in allthings.
And the sexual communicationdoesn't have to be, you know, in
the middle of when you'reengaging in sexual activity.
(32:45):
In fact, the research showsthat it probably shouldn't be 10
to 10.
You know, in terms of you knowif you're going to be critical,
but on the other hand, there'sbeautiful nonverbal
communication that can be reallypositive.
That can be simply moving yourpartner's hand into one place or
(33:05):
another, simply saying you know, I love what you did two
minutes ago, can you do it again?
And once again focusing on thepositive and focusing on the
aspects of your partner and thatof your activity with your
partner that you appreciate andthat you love.
And Sexy, sexy time is goodrelationship time.
Shannon (33:28):
It is I mean, this is your person that you want to be
with forever and you want toexperience all the good things
with, and sex is one of the bestthings.
If you do it, you know theright way, right, as we said a
few weeks ago, which iscommunication-based,
pleasure-focused, open, honestconnection.
Christine (33:46):
And fun and fun, fun.
Have your sexy time, be playfultime and realize it could be a
time to laugh and a time tosmile and a time to cuddle and
all of those things are part ofa really good, sexy, healthy
marital relationship Exactly.
Shannon (34:07):
So today's myth was less of a myth.
It was more of a list that wehope our friend and our
colleague Ezra will keep in mindas he embarks on this next
chapter of his life.
But not that we're concerned.
We're fully confident, ezra,that you will continue to be
kind, be honest, be open,communicate and appreciate who
you are.
Yeah, yeah, truly.
(34:28):
We absolutely wish the best toEzra and Tess and we can't wait
to see what their beautiful lifeturns into and, most
importantly, how their beautifuldog, frida, fares.
And all of this.
Christine (34:39):
We want pictures.
Yeah, so, ezra and Tess, theminute and the day of your
marriage will be, and yourwedding day will be, a day that
you're filled with lots ofemotions.
Take those emotions and bringthem with you every day and
remember to take a step back andsee the wonderful human that
(34:59):
you married.
Shannon (35:01):
So, for better or for worse, richer or poorer,
sickness and health that'sanother myth.
Put to bed A marital bed yeah,the marital bed, exactly,
exactly.
So Ezra's going to roll hiseyes listening to that one.
Thanks to our listeners fortuning in.
We hope that you got someuseful insights out of that.
(35:23):
We will be back next week withanother study session and stay
tuned.
We will be bringing on newguests in the coming weeks and
we will, in fact, be doing thatepisode about infidelity.
We'll also be talking aboutparody culture, sexual
communication and more in theupcoming weeks.
Christine (35:38):
Take care everyone.
Thanks for listening.
Bye now.
Thanks for tuning in for thisweek's episode of Sex Ed
Debunked During the course ofour podcast.
We have limited time together,which means that, unfortunately,
many identities, groups andmovements may not be represented
(35:59):
each week.
The field of sexuality andgender orientations, identities
and behaviors are changing andgrowing rapidly, and we remain
committed to being as inclusiveas possible.
Shannon (36:09):
Please remember that all of us, including us, are
learning in this area and mayoccasionally slip up.
We ask that we all continue tobe kind to one another so that
we can create a truly inclusiveand accepting environment.
As always, if you have anyquestions or comments, please
feel free to reach out to us atSex Ed Debunked on Instagram,
Facebook and Twitter.
Christine (36:29):
Sex Ed Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media in
Providence, rhode Island.
Our sound producer is EzraWinters, with production
assistance from Shea Weintraub.
Hi, this is Sex Ed Debunked, a cross-generational
podcast hosted bymother-daughter duo, christine
and.
Shannon (00:09):
Shannon Curley.
Every episode we tackle a newmyth about sex, sexuality and
pleasure, and use research andexpert insights to debunk
stereotypes and misinformationfrom the bedroom and beyond In
2022,.
We won the American Associationof Sexuality Educators,
counselors and Therapists Awardfor Best Podcast and also
managed to not totally freak outour family and friends along
the way.
Christine (00:29):
We believe in healthy , sex-positive, pleasure-focused
sex education, backed by realresearch and real experience.
Shannon (00:34):
Follow us on Instagram, facebook or Twitter at Sex Ed
Debunked or email us atSexEdDeBunked at gmailcom to
share your sex miseducationtales and the myths you'd like
to hear us debunk.
Thanks for listening.
Hi, this is Sex.
Ed Debunked across-generational podcast about
sexual health, sex positivityand well wishes to our amazing
sound engineer, ezra, who'sgetting married this month.
Christine (00:56):
Woo-hoo, getting married in Nola, no less, that's
right.
Well, we were originallyplanning on doing this week's
episode about infidelity, and wewill have that episode coming
out in the next few weeks, sostay tuned.
But in honor of Ezra's upcomingnuptials, we thought we'd jump
into the research about whatmakes a successful marriage.
Shannon (01:17):
Yes, rather than focus on what makes a failed marriage,
we thought it might be nicer totalk about what makes a
successful marriage.
Isn't that nice of us?
And while not all marriages arethe same, there is definitely
some tried and true advice fromthe internet and beyond that
does set you up for maritalsuccess.
Christine (01:34):
That's true, and the reason it's far and wide is that
it works, and I can tell you assomeone who's been married for
37 plus years.
It's good to take advice whereyou can get it and always keep
working on your marriage.
Shannon (01:47):
And I can tell you, as someone who's witnessed that
marriage for 30 years, thatmarriage isn't always easy, but
it doesn't always have to behard either and it can be really
fun and a good marriage issomething really beautiful to
witness.
Christine (01:58):
Aw, thanks, shan.
Yeah, so, ezra, in honor ofyour wedding, let's jump into
the research on how to build amarriage that lasts.
Shannon (02:08):
And, unsurprisingly, of course, I did a nice little
dive into the interwebs.
But I did a mix of researchacross Reddit, the Gottman
Institute, other actualreputable psychological sources
and put together a list of whatseems to be the internet's
agreed upon advice.
So we will jump into that list.
But then, mom, you can jump inwith your research as we go
(02:29):
along.
Does that sound good?
Of course, cool.
So first up and I think we allhave heard this before but treat
your partner like they are yourfriend.
You often hear that yourpartner should be your best
friend, but what does thatreally mean?
To treat your partner like agood friend?
It's not just like let's hangout and go to the movies, but
it's also being nice to eachother.
(02:49):
This was actually one of thetop on Reddit.
They call it upvoting, but itwas one of the most upvoted
comments in the marriage sectionwas be nice, just be nice to
each other, and I think that'simportant.
It's like, yeah, you shouldlike your partner, not just love
them.
Christine (03:07):
Well, and when you and Chris threw us our 30th
anniversary party, that wasexactly what I said.
After all these years, I stilllike Dad, my husband and the
research actually bears this outthat I think the advice that
everybody hears is communication.
But the research bears out thatit's also this routine
(03:30):
communication, not just thecommunication over the big stuff
, but the quiet day-to-daycommunication that keeps you
connected and keeps that bondgoing.
So there's actually I found a2023 study that just came out
that said routine communicationwas highly related to the
(03:51):
day-to-day relationshipsatisfaction.
So it's not necessarily greatjob, it might just be so.
How was your day-to-day honey?
Shannon (04:03):
And that was actually one of the.
It's funny because that was oneof the things.
That was it the research forthe Gottman Institute, which
we've talked about Gottmanbefore, but Gottman's one of the
more well-known relationaltherapists, relational
institutes.
You can be Gottman Institutecertified in couples counseling.
But it said, expressinginterest is huge and saying how
(04:24):
was your day is such a minorthing.
But if that's your friend, youwant to know how their day was.
And it's funny because theroutine communication that
wasn't mentioned in thatresearch but that you're saying
that this research mentions thatI actually have a daily
notification on my phone to askmy partner how their day was,
because I don't want to forgetto ask that, Not because I'm not
already interested, but becauseestablishing that communication
(04:46):
and showing that constantinterest is an important part of
maintaining a healthyrelationship.
Christine (04:50):
Well, and I think what happens when you have been
in a longer-term relationshipthe flow of the day gets in the
way and then all of a sudden youcan get into that situation
where you're not noticing thatperson.
So routine communication saysto your partner I'm noticing you
and I still care what youreveryday looks like.
Shannon (05:09):
Absolutely, and I actually lead really well to the
second sort of mutually agreedupon between the therapists and
the internet nerds Top 10 thingsyou need for a successful
marriage is being responsive toyour partner's needs and
feelings, which really kind ofjust boils down to listening.
Christine (05:28):
Yeah, the research in this is really interesting.
The listening actually is abigger component than the
talking.
I think some of us inrelationships tend to be the one
to want to give advice or, incertain circumstances, maybe
solve a problem, but it'sactually just taking the time to
(05:48):
listen so that a person mightjust want an event.
Your partner might not want asolution.
Your partner might not want tohear your side of the story.
Your partner just might want tohave someone to give them a hug
and listen, and that's that.
And that shows that in thatcontext, the quality of the
(06:10):
communication matters more thanthe quantity.
Shannon (06:15):
And that's that.
Responsiveness is understandingthat your partner's needs and
feelings can change and shiftand what they might need from
you in the moment might bedifferent.
And sometimes it's as easy asasking when they start venting
to you okay, are you venting tome because you just need someone
to vent to you, or do you wantme to try to provide a solution?
Christine (06:34):
And I think, if you're learning communication
styles and we know as well, beenwith his lady for a while
However, communication styles dochange throughout your life
course and your needs changethroughout your life course, and
part of communication is havingthat radical honesty of saying
this is what I need right nowand being able to trust your
(06:57):
partner to give you what youneed in that moment.
Shannon (06:59):
Absolutely Three be physically affectionate.
You just mentioned it when wewere talking about needs and
feelings, but sometimes someonejust needs a hug.
Yes, Mm-hmm.
Christine (07:11):
And I found another study just published in 2023
that is talking aboutaffectionate touch, kind of like
the routine communication ofalong the same lines is like
this routine touching amongpartners.
So not, and despite the factthat this is sex ed debunked,
(07:31):
not sexual touching, buttouching that acknowledges that
your partner is there.
And the research shows that thenumber of affectionate touch is
actually very strong, relatednot just to sharing activities
in the present but yourintention to share positive
activities events in the future.
(07:53):
So this affectionate touch hasa dual purpose in the moment and
how you evaluate yourrelationship going forward.
Shannon (08:03):
Well, that's interesting because another one
of the articles that I read wastalking about those quote
unquote bids for connection iswhat that's referred to as it's
like when you want to be held oryou want to be touched in a
physical way, and interestinglythey did this survey of
newlyweds and their first liketwo years of marriage and the
(08:26):
responsiveness to bids forconnection in successful
marriages was 86% of the time,but for the unsuccessful couples
, the couples that got divorcedafter years of marriage, only
33% of the time were those bidsfor connection responded to.
Christine (08:43):
Yeah.
So affectionate touch has anumber of different layers.
One is responsiveness and theother is just kind of simply
just quietly touching yourpartner, like if your partner's
doing the dishes, just walkingup and touching their shoulder
and maybe grabbing a dish towel.
Back to that, our conversationsabout chore play right.
(09:03):
But one of the studies wasinteresting.
It was dealing with couplestherapy and couples that were
struggling with theirrelationship satisfaction and
the intervention was simplyasking them and requiring them
to touch each other more.
Shannon (09:21):
And to your point, simple things right, like when
you're driving in the cartogether, hold their hand while
you're driving.
Christine (09:27):
Unless you're driving , stick shift and then be you
know, but then Go over and touchmy hair while I'm driving, you
know.
Shannon (09:34):
Yeah, there's ways to display affection and yeah, I
just think that's it's a reallyimportant one and that's again
one of the things that theGottman Institute really focuses
on is the six second kiss oncea day.
They say you should try toengage in a six second kiss.
That's just like fully engagedand not distracted, and just
really focusing on that momentand then and there's similar
(09:55):
subject studies on the length ofthe hug as well.
Yeah, and there's.
I mean, of course there'sdifferent research and different
numbers and whatever, butthere's, like you know, seven
hugs a day is the appropriatenumber of hugs to feel like you
are filled by your physicaltouch.
And whether you believe it'sseven or five, or 10 or 20, the
point is, if you can establishthose physical connections, it
will improve your intimacy andit will improve your connection
(10:17):
to your partner.
Christine (10:18):
Well, and in this research study that I was
mentioning, shannon, what theyfound was that after this two
week intervention, where thecouples who were struggling just
learned how to touch each othermore in a non-sexual way, at
the end of that two week periodthey actually had more positive
evaluations of not just theirrelationship but their partner
(10:40):
too.
Shannon (10:41):
Mm-hmm yeah, it's interesting Moving into, I think
, something that we've certainlybrought up before on the
podcast.
But handling conflict andconflict's so interesting
because I remember one of thebiggest conversation points when
I was getting my masters incommunications was why we all
associate conflict withnegativity.
(11:02):
You know, conflict has anegative connotation.
People assume that conflict isbad, it means that you're
arguing, it means that you'refighting.
But the truth is that there issuch thing as positive conflict
and that just boils down to howyou communicate around conflict.
So, unsurprisingly, in asuccessful marriage you need to
know how to handle conflict in agentle and a positive way.
(11:22):
And Reddit, in its occasionalprofundity, said, of course,
pick your battles, let things go.
But then so many people upvoteddrop your ego.
If you are going to, you'regoing to deal with conflict.
There is never going to be arelationship in this world,
romantic or otherwise, where youdo not occasionally experience
conflict.
And if you can drop your egoand you can see yourself as a
(11:45):
teammate trying to work througha conflict with your partner,
then you can handle that in agentle and positive way.
Christine (11:52):
Well and actually relationships, research and
people who study counseling andclinical relationship work will
tell you that the absence ofconflict is really a problem,
because that usually means thatthere's a lack of communication
and probably some bubblingresentment over the lack of the
communication.
(12:12):
And, as we like to I love toquote Brene Brown choose the
uncomfortable conversation overresentment, and it's about
learning how to have aconversation around your
conflict rather than tapping itdown, tapping it down, tapping
it down and then letting itexplode, Because usually the
argument over leaving the emptymilk carton in the refrigerator
(12:37):
is not about the empty milkcarton in the refrigerator at
all.
Shannon (12:43):
Well, and to your point , if you are not having a
difficult conversation or you'reavoiding talking about
something because you know Idon't want to ruin things,
they're perfect, or I justdidn't want to upset them, think
about what that really means.
Because if you don't want toquote, unquote ruin things or
you don't want to upset them, isthat a safe space for
communication?
And if it's not, figure out away to build that safe space and
(13:04):
maybe that's gentle?
You know, and that's one of thewords that came up in this one
of the articles was gentlenessis figure out how to have a soft
, open and how to be gentle withyour communication about
conflict, because, of course, weall have our own relational
histories and our own, you know,of course.
Yeah reasons why, exactly?
Reasons why it's difficult tocommunicate about certain things
(13:26):
.
And personally, I've had thisproblem too, where I have, you
know, fought to preserve thehoneymoon stage for so long and
then realized that the reasonwhy I had to fight for the
honeymoon stage was because weweren't on a honeymoon.
There were things that werewrong and I was preserving it
and even in my most recentrelationship, that I am very
confident and very happy and Ihad to overcome that personal
hurdle of like, hey, wait, whyam I not talking about this?
(13:48):
And it wasn't because mypartner isn't trustworthy or
isn't supportive and hasn'tcreated a safe space.
It's because I was so used tocreating a fabricated honeymoon
phase that I fell into thathabit.
But for a successful marriageand a successful partnership,
you have to overcome thediscomfort and have the
difficult conversation, becauseit's what's going to pave the
way for positive conflict.
Christine (14:10):
Well, and I also, you know.
The other point is to chooseyour battles.
You know you don't want to havea battle over everything, but
you still have to have battlesoccasionally because you're two
different people living twodifferent lives and you know
you're going to havedisagreements and you're going
to have things that are notperfectly aligned.
Shannon (14:27):
Well, pick your battles so that you don't go to war
Exactly the ultimate war, right,womp, womp, womp.
But another one of the you knowagain, reddit's great for very
like commonplace summaries ofhow things can be managed.
But one of the comments waslearn how to count to 10.
Yeah, if you're about to blowup, learn how to count to 10,
(14:49):
because in those 10 very longseconds you give yourself the
platitude to decide not to havethat argument if it's not worth
it.
You know count to 10.
Okay, is this worth having aconflict over?
Am I really upset about thisthing that I'm about to blow up
over?
Is it really the milk cartonthat I'm upset about, or should
I take a deep breath and returnto this conversation later, when
I'm not mad about the milkcarton, but I want to talk about
(15:09):
what it is I'm actually upsetabout Well, and there's a real
important thing right there,shannon is.
Christine (15:14):
Sometimes, you know, difficult conversations need
their space, and it's similarthat you know.
Reddit says count to 10.
And when I took stressmanagement as part of my masters
, it was the stop method STOP,take a breath, observe and then
proceed.
And that is applicable to notjust your stress but also to how
(15:36):
to interact with a partner.
And to go back to Gottman'sresearch, gottman did some
research observing partners inrelationships and how they
interacted, and it was anobservational study, which means
they were counting the ways andthe phrases that the partners
used to each other and how theyspoke to each other.
(15:58):
And what Gottman found in thelongitudinal research when he
revisited those couples yearsdown the road is that the
couples that used the morenegative comments were more
likely to no longer be together.
So, while positive comments aregreat, refraining from stuff
(16:21):
that's negative is even moreimportant, because I think we've
talked about and I talk aboutthis in the context of
evolutionary psychology ourbrains are trained to remember
the negative Right.
So and negative has more impact.
Shannon (16:36):
Well, and I think there's two things to unpack a
little bit there.
One is that when you're withyour romantic partner, when
you're with an intimate partner,it's easier to say the negative
things because the filter thatyou would otherwise put on with
other people you don'tnecessarily have with your
intimate partner.
So you're more likely tocomplain and you're more likely
to have negative things andyou're more likely to project on
them frankly.
(16:56):
But two, it's not just intimaterelationships.
To your point, the brain ispredisposed to process
negativity and hold on to it.
And in fact, again in mycommunications research, we talk
about mean world syndrome allthe time, which is the news is
always talking about negativethings, and so we have this idea
that the world is so, sonegative.
(17:16):
And of course there isnegativity in the world, but we
don't hear about the positiveand we retain the negative Right
.
And so, within and without ofyour relationships, inside and
outside of those relationships,that's how our brain works.
Christine (17:28):
Well, and you think about conversation, shannon.
Someone will say you know 10good things about you and one
minor criticism, and the thingthat we tend to remember is the
criticism.
Shannon (17:39):
Well, that's why they always say when you're
delivering feedback, you shoulddo the compliment sandwich right
.
This was really great.
We could work on this, but Iloved that Because even when you
do that, it doesn't matter howmany pieces of bread you put on
that they're going to rememberthe felling.
Christine (17:52):
Well, you know the compliment sandwich is a good
idea for, you know, anycommunication and intimate
relationships too.
You know, to make sure that youknow leading into your next
thing and expressing yourappreciation for your partner.
You know, appreciate the effortyour partner has been made.
Said, say you know I don't knowthis might be appropriate to me
(18:14):
not leaving messes around thehouse.
You know, say you appreciatethe effort, but maybe a little
bit more needs to be done.
Shannon (18:24):
Right, yeah, and again, like you know, the previous
point was avoid negativity, butthat doesn't mean that you don't
have to also express positivity.
Of course, of appreciation.
Right, and that was another one.
You know, a expressappreciation for your partner
came up across all of theresearch, all of the articles,
all of Reddit, you know, and itis, it's not, it's not hard, you
(18:45):
know, say thank you, you didthe dishes, thank you you poured
my coffee this morning, thankyou.
Christine (18:49):
Well, and that's another thing that I think,
shannon, you know, when you talkabout a new relationship,
everyone's quite attentive tothe new partner.
But once you get establishedand, yes, married, marriage,
marriage gets you to that pointwhere you know, sometimes you
forget the appreciation andsometimes you forget the
gratitude and going back tolooking with great interest at
(19:13):
the person that you married andseeing and being grateful for
the fact that you're going toget to live your life with this
person and share some fantasticadventures with them.
And you know to reiterate thatgratitude and that gratefulness
on the day to day will have ahuge impact on your relationship
satisfaction going forward.
Shannon (19:34):
Well, you've been married for 37 years.
How do you remind yourself toshow appreciation?
Because I think it's reallycommon to fall into this is the
way it is.
This is my person and you kindof get comfortable with the fact
that they're, you know, thereand they've always been there
and they're not going anywhere.
So how do you maintain thatattitude?
Christine (19:52):
Well, fortunately fortunately or unfortunately for
me, one of the things thatEsther Perrell would say about
you know, an appreciation foryour partner is distance.
And since I've been spending alot of my time in Connecticut
over the last few years, I haveproximate distance and so when
you leave a person and come backto them, you see them in a new
(20:13):
light.
But for those people who don'tleave their partner and come
back to them on a regular basis,like I do, you can still create
that distance in your mind.
And when you take a step backand even just walk to the
doorway of a room and look atyour partner from across the
room and look at them with neweyes and realize like wow, look
(20:36):
at the.
Look at the lilt of their smile, look at the glint in their eye
, look at the the you know theexpressiveness when I watch them
typing or when I watch theminteracting at work.
And it's that distance thatgives you that moment to say,
hey, you're pretty amazing andI'm really grateful that you're
in my life.
Shannon (20:56):
Yeah, I love that.
It's funny.
My girlfriend just moved inwith me and I find myself
already doing that where I'mlike like hey, over here doing
her job, but I'm like what acool person.
Christine (21:07):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and that's a great practice.
You know, for any relationship,whether it's a new relationship
, a new marriage or over acourse of several years.
And you know it's funny.
You know you mentioned, youknow, me and daddy have been
married a long time, but we havea lot of friends who have been
married a long time and theywould say the same thing.
You know keep appreciating thewonderful things that your
(21:28):
partner is in your life and youknow the fact that you get to
live an adventure with them.
Shannon (21:35):
Yeah, two pieces of Reddit feedback that I think
resonate with that.
One is remember that you areboth people and you are each
other's person, but you're alsoboth your own complex,
individual, unique person andsimilarly, you know it's good to
have your own thing.
You don't necessarily have togo get your PhD and live in a
different state, but you know,having your own hobbies, having
(21:58):
your own thing.
It's good to you know whetherit's playing sports or it's
going to an art club or you'rein a book club or whatever it is
.
If you each have your own sortof independent thing, it always
makes sure that there's a fresh,you know, topic of conversation
.
Christine (22:12):
Well, and in social psychology they will talk about
that as self expansion, theability to grow in the
relationship and also growoutside of the relationship.
I think too many relationshipsdon't do well because they are
expected.
They marry their partner andthey expect everything to be
exactly the same.
(22:33):
You know five, 10, 20 yearslater and that is it's just.
It's not going to work.
You want to change as peopleand you want to grow in your
relationship, and those thingsare really, really important to
making it last over the longterm.
Shannon (22:47):
Well, and I think that brings us back to you know one,
the conversation of beingteammates and being partners
like support each other throughthose explorations, support each
other through those hobbies.
It also brings us back to theconversation we had along like
many episodes ago, aboutcompersion and the importance of
supporting things that makeyour partner happy, even if
they're not necessarily yourthing, because that is what
(23:10):
allows them to continue thatself exploration, and if they're
continuing to explorethemselves, they're also opening
themselves up to new ways ofinteracting with you and being
your partner and being yourperson.
Yeah, that's so.
It's mutually beneficial.
Christine (23:23):
However, interestingly, the research also
shows that making time for funand laughter and shared positive
activities is equally importantto a long and satisfying
relationship.
Shannon (23:36):
Well, sure, yeah, that is that makes sense.
But again, because that's yourbest friend, right?
You should want to spend timetogether and you should want to
do fun, happy things.
But again, Reddit advice keepgoing on dates, keep planning
adventures together.
You know, like, just becauseyou're married doesn't mean that
you have to settle into themundane and you should find joy
in the mundane as well.
(23:57):
But that doesn't mean that youput aside the things like
planning adventures and going toconcerts and honestly, that's
something you and dad do reallywell is you, do you?
Obviously both are very busypeople, living your own busy
professional lives, but you planfun.
You go on trips, you go toparties, you go out to the bar
to watch the Patriots play.
(24:19):
It would be very easy to sit athome on your couch with your
feet up and just kind of take adeep breath at the end of the
day, which you do sometimes.
But you also make sure thatyou're doing fun things.
Christine (24:30):
Well, and I think that's an aspect when people ask
about what makes a marriagework, they'll say keep having
fun together.
Well, fun takes planning whenyou're attracted to busy people
with busy lives and planning ispart of the fun.
I mean, for me we always hadthat joke, shannon, growing up
right, that I was the keeper ofthe responsibility and daddy was
(24:51):
the keeper of the fun.
And it's kind of still that wayin a lot of ways, and it's
worked, because that way theresponsible things get taken
care of, but so does the funstuff.
Shannon (25:03):
As long as you know what you're both bring into the
table right.
Set realistic expectations andactually that is though that is
one of the things that was onthe list is set realistic
expectations.
You were.
There are small ways that youwill be able to influence and
impact your partner, but you arenot going to change your
partner at their core.
If they are intrinsically typeB and you are intrinsically type
(25:27):
A, you're just going to have tokind of figure out how to make
that work.
Christine (25:31):
Does that sound familiar?
Shannon (25:32):
I'm married to a type of Z, but but you know there is
a distinction between influenceand impact, and someone being
open to feedback and beingwilling to change parts of
themselves.
But you are not going to changeyour person to their core, so
you need to learn how to lovethem for who they are.
Christine (25:49):
Exactly, Exactly, and and that learning and that
emotional connection.
The research shows that whenyou build that emotional capital
you and your partner actuallythere's greater levels of
forgiveness, which means it's aprotective factor because you
know life happens, stuff's goingto get rough, there's going to
be things you need to deal with,but if you have, as what what
(26:11):
Gottman refers to as the Gottmanbank, full of emotional capital
, you have a greater capacityfor forgiveness and a greater
resilience for the tough timesthat are going to happen in any
long term relationship.
Shannon (26:26):
And then another one that kind of just makes sense,
but solve your solvable problems.
It's like there are things thatyou can kind of get out of the
way, and some of that is ispre-relationships, so you'd hope
you had it sorted by the timeyou married as or?
we're sure you already talkedabout it, but it is important
and it's funny because this issomething that comes up on like
(26:46):
every dating show, right?
It's like these dating showsthat are like married at first
sight, love is blind.
Whatever it is, the ultimatumit's always.
The thing that ruins therelationship is that they get
married on the spot and thenthey're like oh, by the way, do
you have a 401k?
And they're like Nope.
They're like Cool, do you wantto have kids?
Nope, yeah, that's the one thatI've been really good to talk
(27:08):
about yeah.
Or like oh, by the way, I go tochurch four times a week.
You're cool with that, right?
Nope, I'm an atheist.
Like.
These are the things that aresolvable problems If you address
them right away, and bysolvable I do mean don't get
married, but have thoseconversations early.
And, more importantly than thatand this goes into the don't
change thing, like you can'tchange someone thing but if you
(27:29):
have that conversation and theanswer you get is not the answer
you want, don't get there Now,Jan, this is supposed to be a
positive thing.
Christine (27:40):
Ezra has already made the decision.
Shannon (27:42):
Right.
But my point is I have and thisis probably something that comes
up in every type ofrelationship, but it is
something I have absolutelyheard a lot in the queer
community is especially aroundhaving kids, and it's like
you're not going to convincesomeone that they want to have
kids if they don't want to havekids, and that's a really big
one.
But you're also not going toconvince someone who you know
spends their money as soon asthey get it that they should
(28:04):
have a 401k and you're not goingto convince someone that is
devoutly religious that theyshouldn't be.
You know there are fundamentalthings and again, I know this
isn't Ezra and Tess Well wishesto you both.
But it is really important tomention in the context of
getting married is that thereare immovable objects that you
have to be realistic about andbe honest about.
(28:26):
So, as much as relationshipsare about communication and
they're about compromise andthey're about meeting each other
halfway, also, be honest withyourselves about what it is that
you're going to get out of yourrelationship and know what you
can and cannot change.
Christine (28:38):
Yeah, and you know what, shannon, there are the
same.
Similar issues will come up inthe context of a marriage, in
the sense of sometimes problemscan be solved pretty easily and
just take them head on and solvethem.
You know, like, like you know,there are couples these days and
I know it's kind of trendy whohave made a decision, if one
(29:01):
person snores and the otherperson doesn't, to just like OK,
we'll have separate bedrooms,and you know what?
That's OK if it solves yourproblem, right?
Shannon (29:11):
I mean, one of the pieces of Reddit advice was get
two separate blankets for thebed, so you stop arguing over
stealing the blanket at night.
But even like you know, we havea toothbrush holder in our
house that is not big enough tohold the toothbrush container.
Well, let's just get a biggerone instead of like getting
frustrated every time you put itin the toothbrush thing, like,
how about just get a biggerholder?
(29:32):
And those are.
Christine (29:33):
Those are easy ones.
Shannon (29:34):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like OK, you don't likewhole milk and I like skim milk,
whatever, we'll just get awhole milk.
I don't care, like there's justthere again and that's the most
minor battle to not fight.
But it's true, solve yourselfup with problems.
Christine (29:47):
That's good advice.
Ok, what do we have next?
Shannon (29:50):
I don't know what do we have.
Oh well, you know what we havenext.
The most important of all,welcome to Sex at Debunk, the
show where we tell you to havesex.
There you go.
You got to have sex if you'regoing to have a good marriage,
or at least you have to practiceintimacy and connection.
And truly the research doesshow, and also the anecdotal
(30:11):
evidence shows and Reddit showsand every article shows that you
got to maintain that romanticsexual connection and chemistry
if you want to have a successfulmarriage.
Christine (30:21):
And let's parse that out a little bit, shannon
because, we're not talking about.
We're not talking about lookingoutside and and and counting and
marking down how many how manydays a week or how many days a
month.
What we're talking about isachieving a level of sexual
satisfaction, and the researchshows sexual satisfaction, when
(30:42):
it's measured subjectively bythe partners in the relationship
and they have the same levelsof sexual satisfaction, it is
highly, highly correlated withrelationship satisfaction.
Not all the time, sometimes ityou know.
There are other thingsobviously that weigh into
relationship satisfaction, butthere are a couple of things
(31:02):
under sexual satisfaction tokeep in mind.
One is a topic that we talkedabout when we talked about Emily
Nagoski's book Come as you Arewho, by the way, is coming out
with a new book in Januarycalled Come Together, which I
can't wait Right now.
But she has a concept and sheuses a concept called sexual
communal strain, and that isunderstanding that if your
(31:26):
sexual motive is for pleasure,you are going to end up more
satisfied than if your sexualmotive is to reach an end goal.
It also is an understandingthat sometimes one person is
more in the mood than other, andsometimes you give your partner
what you need, what they need,and that's okay Because that's
part of the communal strengthbetween a relationship.
Shannon (31:49):
Yeah, and I mean again, that goes back to good
communication.
It goes back to being honest.
One of the you know posts onReddit said the only secret you
should keep in your relationshipis a present.
Christine (32:01):
It's like although let's talk about it One of the
other, our friends who have alsobeen married over 30 years.
When we asked them the otherday, you know what's the secret?
The answer for the guy actuallywas radical honesty.
And you know, sexualcommunication communication
about what you like and want anddesire can sometimes be an
(32:23):
uncomfortable conversation, butthe honesty about what you want
and need in your body is really,really important to achieve
that.
Sexual communication, sexualsatisfaction.
So radical honesty in allthings.
And the sexual communicationdoesn't have to be, you know, in
the middle of when you'reengaging in sexual activity.
(32:45):
In fact, the research showsthat it probably shouldn't be 10
to 10.
You know, in terms of you knowif you're going to be critical,
but on the other hand, there'sbeautiful nonverbal
communication that can be reallypositive.
That can be simply moving yourpartner's hand into one place or
(33:05):
another, simply saying you know, I love what you did two
minutes ago, can you do it again?
And once again focusing on thepositive and focusing on the
aspects of your partner and thatof your activity with your
partner that you appreciate andthat you love.
And Sexy, sexy time is goodrelationship time.
Shannon (33:28):
It is I mean, this is your person that you want to be
with forever and you want toexperience all the good things
with, and sex is one of the bestthings.
If you do it, you know theright way, right, as we said a
few weeks ago, which iscommunication-based,
pleasure-focused, open, honestconnection.
Christine (33:46):
And fun and fun, fun.
Have your sexy time, be playfultime and realize it could be a
time to laugh and a time tosmile and a time to cuddle and
all of those things are part ofa really good, sexy, healthy
marital relationship Exactly.
Shannon (34:07):
So today's myth was less of a myth.
It was more of a list that wehope our friend and our
colleague Ezra will keep in mindas he embarks on this next
chapter of his life.
But not that we're concerned.
We're fully confident, ezra,that you will continue to be
kind, be honest, be open,communicate and appreciate who
you are.
Yeah, yeah, truly.
(34:28):
We absolutely wish the best toEzra and Tess and we can't wait
to see what their beautiful lifeturns into and, most
importantly, how their beautifuldog, frida, fares.
And all of this.
Christine (34:39):
We want pictures.
Yeah, so, ezra and Tess, theminute and the day of your
marriage will be, and yourwedding day will be, a day that
you're filled with lots ofemotions.
Take those emotions and bringthem with you every day and
remember to take a step back andsee the wonderful human that
(34:59):
you married.
Shannon (35:01):
So, for better or for worse, richer or poorer,
sickness and health that'sanother myth.
Put to bed A marital bed yeah,the marital bed, exactly,
exactly.
So Ezra's going to roll hiseyes listening to that one.
Thanks to our listeners fortuning in.
We hope that you got someuseful insights out of that.
(35:23):
We will be back next week withanother study session and stay
tuned.
We will be bringing on newguests in the coming weeks and
we will, in fact, be doing thatepisode about infidelity.
We'll also be talking aboutparody culture, sexual
communication and more in theupcoming weeks.
Christine (35:38):
Take care everyone.
Thanks for listening.
Bye now.
Thanks for tuning in for thisweek's episode of Sex Ed
Debunked During the course ofour podcast.
We have limited time together,which means that, unfortunately,
many identities, groups andmovements may not be represented
(35:59):
each week.
The field of sexuality andgender orientations, identities
and behaviors are changing andgrowing rapidly, and we remain
committed to being as inclusiveas possible.
Shannon (36:09):
Please remember that all of us, including us, are
learning in this area and mayoccasionally slip up.
We ask that we all continue tobe kind to one another so that
we can create a truly inclusiveand accepting environment.
As always, if you have anyquestions or comments, please
feel free to reach out to us atSex Ed Debunked on Instagram,
Facebook and Twitter.
Christine (36:29):
Sex Ed Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media in
Providence, rhode Island.
Our sound producer is EzraWinters, with production
assistance from Shea Weintraub.
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