December 6, 2023 • 37 mins
Imagine if your childhood attachment styles were echoing in your adult relationships - intriguing thought, isn't it? Join us, Christine and Shannon Curley, as we demystify the world of attachment styles and reveal how they're not just confined to your early years. We're cracking open the research, and we promise you'll understand why Gen Z seems to be gravitating towards insecure attachment styles and why it's a trend worth noting.
We're going to navigate the terrain of four primary attachment styles - secure, anxious, avoidant dismissive, and avoidant fearful. We'll show you how these styles are formed during the early years and how they intricately weave into your adult relationships. Equipped with this knowledge, we bet you'll encounter some aha moments regarding your relationship patterns. And if you're curious about what an "insecure attachment style" means, we've got you covered. We also dissect the avoidant fearful style, highlighting the paradox of craving a relationship while being scared of getting hurt.
Ever thought about the impact of your attachment style on your behaviors and communication? We’re throwing light on that too! We stand by the importance of humility and adaptability in communication and believe firmly that it's possible to rise above your attachment style. As we prepare for the holiday season, remember to embrace grace and lean on your secure networks. And yes, we're also debunking myths surrounding sex and sexuality and stressing the necessity of inclusivity in our understanding. So let's challenge conventional wisdom, expand our horizons, and create healthier, more fulfilling relationships. This is going to be a journey of self-discovery you wouldn't want to miss!
Follow us on social @sexeddebunked or send us a message at sexeddebunked@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christine (00:03):
Hi, this is Sex.
Ed Debunked across-generational podcast
hosted by mother-daughter duo,christine and Shannon Curley.
Shannon (00:10):
Every episode we tackle a new myth about sex, sexuality
and pleasure, and use researchand expert insights to debunk
stereotypes and misinformationfrom the bedroom and beyond.
In 2022,.
We won the American Associationof Sexuality Educators,
counselors and Therapists Awardfor Best Podcasts and also
managed to not totally freak outour family and friends along
the way.
Christine (00:29):
We'll leave a healthy sex-positive, pleasure-focused
sex education backed by realresearch and real experience.
Shannon (00:34):
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter at Sex Ed
Debunked, or email us atsexeddebunkedcom to share your
sex miseducation tales and themyths you'd like to hear us
debunk.
Thanks for listening.
This is Sex.
Ed Debunked across-generational podcast about
sex education, sexual health,and that one time my therapist
told me to be more codependent.
Yeah, true story.
(00:56):
Her words not mine.
Yeah, is that what therapistsare saying now?
It's definitely not, and it'sdefinitely not what they should
be saying.
I think it was maybe just a badday, but it will always amuse
me that she was like hey, youknow that thing.
You guys hear about being bad,do more of it.
Oh well.
Christine (01:09):
Okay, we'll be calling her out today, like you
said, maybe just a bad day, butanyway, on this week's episode,
we're covering a topic that iskind of foundational to any
relationship attachment style.
Shannon (01:23):
Mm-hmm.
So I think a lot of people haveheard about attachment styles,
but one thing that's importantto note right off the bat is
that when we're talking aboutattachment styles for kids and
adults, we're talking aboutdifferent things.
So attachment styles forchildren is about how children
and parents interact, and that'slike early childhood.
And then in adulthood we talkabout attachment styles to
describe patterns of attachmentin romantic relationships, and
(01:46):
so there's kind of two takes onattachment styles, but that's
all derived from attachmenttheory right, mom.
Christine (01:54):
Well, it's attachment theory.
But essentially what the theoryis is your attachment style in
childhood translates to yourattachment style in adult
relationships.
So the myth we're debunkingtoday is attachment styles end
in childhood.
Shannon (02:11):
Yeah, and even beyond that, some of the research that
was kind of inspiring thisepisode.
Not your research, sorry.
What was inspiring this episodein kind of current events and
current reporting is that thatrelationship isn't necessarily
true.
There are things from yourchildhood that can affect your
romantic relationships, but thatdoesn't mean that there aren't
plenty of intervening factors inthe middle of childhood and
(02:32):
adulthood.
So something that wasinteresting that I read about
and again kind of inspired thisepisode is two articles.
One was an article that justsaid the headline was Gen Z has
insecure attachment styles.
Here's what to do about it asan entire generation.
Well, and it said that therewas a meta review that said,
compared with college studentsin the late 1980s, a much larger
(02:53):
proportion of students todayagree that they are quote,
comfortable without closeemotional relationships and the
different factors that theyattribute that to are having
less time to interact with otherpeople, having less trust with
other people, having more thingsdistracting them so they're not
as able to focus.
And then also, what I found wasinteresting, no relational
practice.
Quote unquote.
Christine (03:14):
So yeah, yeah, and the research too.
Shannon (03:18):
And what you think, when you think about COVID being
a really easy example, is likeyou're literally not practicing
real relationships with peopleif you're online all the time,
and COVID wasn't the start ofthis, but it definitely
exacerbated it.
And then the other article thatI saw that was similar said you
know, america's in its insecureattachment era was the name, so
thanks Taylor Swift for makingera a trendy term.
(03:38):
But social psychologist SarahConrath identified a 15%
decrease in secure attachmentbetween 1988 and 2011.
So just a lot of interestingmodern reports and studies that
point to the fact that newergenerations are seeing much
lower secure attachment styles.
Christine (03:58):
So I think, shannon, before we kind of get into
really what each adultattachment style means, I think
we need to kind of delve intothe real foundational background
of how the development and theidea of attachment styles in
children kind of came about.
Sure, yeah.
So back in the old days ofsocial psychology, a sociologist
(04:22):
called Mary Ainsworth developeda paradigm to test what she
called the strange situation,and what she was looking to
examine is how young toddlersreacted when a caregiver left
the room.
Shannon (04:42):
Also, I want to contextualize that when we say
the olden days, we are referringto the 1970s.
It's not, like you know, the19th century.
It was, it was.
It was 1970s ago, Sure, but youknow, just to be clear, we
didn't mean you know, the beforetimes we met, no, no.
Christine (05:00):
But but it's kind of it's kind of old in this in the
context of social psychologythat there was.
The evolution of psychology wasso much before that, you know,
psychoanalytical and aboutbehaviorism.
So social psychology is arelatively new science in
psychology.
So Mary Ainsworth developedthis what she called strange
(05:24):
situation and she had childrenin playing and having caregivers
present, and examined how thechildren would react both when
the caregiver left the room andthen when the caregiver came
back.
Shannon (05:43):
And I believe another element of that was a stranger
entered the room, not just withthe child, with the parent there
too, but testing that bond tobetween a stranger parent and
child Right.
Christine (05:54):
But the primary aspect in terms of attachment
style was looking to see how thechild reacted when the parent
was in the room, how the childreacted when the parents left
and how the child reacted whenthe parent came back.
So secure attachment prettymakes sense.
So the cure attachment actually, because the mom, caregiver is
(06:17):
seen as a secure base, the babyactually or toddler actually
gets upset when the, when thechild, when the mom leaves or
caregiver leaves, but on returnalmost immediately calms down.
So that describes somebody whois secure, kind of venturing out
and coming back, because theyalways know that someone's going
(06:40):
to come back.
The second style that wasobserved was a style called
avoidant and insecure and thatwould be a child that when whose
caregiver is not emotionallyavailable.
So that would be the child whodidn't even notice when the
(07:01):
caregiver left the room.
Shannon (07:03):
And another aspect of that again because part of this
was bringing a stranger into theroom is that they don't really
show any preference for theircaregiver over a stranger,
Exactly.
Christine (07:14):
The third style that they looked at was something
called anxious and insecure, andthat child was clingy.
That's the one who was anxiousand clinging to the caregiver
when they were leaving the roomVery, very guarded around
strangers and also when thecaregiver returned, would be
(07:36):
angry and upset.
Shannon (07:39):
Interesting and so like .
From you know I get.
Obviously you've done theresearch and you have your
perspective on this.
So your point of view why is itthat they're not comforted when
the parent returns?
Christine (07:49):
Because they are, the parent has not provided enough
of a secure base.
So that would be a parent whoperhaps might be inconsistent in
relationship, inconsistent inattention, consistent in
caregiving.
So that requires this wholeanxious like come back, come
(08:11):
back, because there's no trustand security that the caregiver
is going to come back.
Shannon (08:16):
Yeah, yeah that makes sense.
Christine (08:18):
And then there's a fourth right the fourth one is
called, has been termed asdisorganized, which is kind of
that.
It's actually like almost likeinconsistent to the nth degree,
in the sense that that caregivermight shower with affection and
gifts and then on the next daycompletely ignore that, ignore
(08:42):
that child and, as a result, thechild's reaction in the
situation is kind of all overthe place and a little bit
unpredictable, which is why it'scalled disorganized.
Yeah, and attachment styles inchildren.
Shannon (08:55):
And another interesting thing about the disorganized
attachment style is that it'sone of the ones where they track
more changes and this is justbased on some of the research I
did but they track more changesbased on the age of the child.
So for a lot of attachmentstyles in children you kind of
witness it throughout theirlifespan and then they go into
adolescence and maturity andthen they transition sort of
(09:17):
into the romantic.
But for the disorganizedattachment style they're
different at age one maybe, thenthey are at age five, then they
are at age six, and that'sbecause of the way that their
relationship with their parentsshifts so much more seismically
really than the other attachmentstyles do.
There is more consistency inthe other three attachment
styles and then theinconsistency is mirrored more
(09:38):
throughout the years.
With a child who has adisorganized attachment style
Exactly.
Christine (09:43):
So the disorganized one is kind of the one that I
think researchers are having thehardest time really defining,
because it is disorganized,right.
Shannon (09:52):
So that's childhood, and while it is important to
note that you're not necessarilystuck with it forever which is
part of what our myth is todebunk today the research does
indicate that those patternsthat are established in
childhood do have an impact onadult relationships.
Christine (10:08):
They could, and that was John Volby and continued
Mary Ainsworth research in adultattachment styles and looked at
to see and looked researchedlongitudinally to see how the
attachment styles and childrenwould create would translate to
an adult emotional relationship.
And honestly, shen, that's whatwe hear when we hear, when you
(10:31):
read articles like that andthey're saying Incasive,
insecure Attachment.
They're not talking about Gen Zhaving insecure attachment as
children, they're talking abouthaving that attachment style in
their adult relationships.
Shannon (10:43):
And I want to say, just even fundamentally, part of the
reason.
So we briefly touched on theresearch that Gen Z has more
insecure attachment styles andwhatever.
Fundamentally, the reason whythis is problematic or scary or
disheartening is because thisattachment, the ability to make
emotional bonds to individualsand form meaningful
(11:04):
relationships, is a basiccomponent of human nature.
It is important, it is one ofthe most important hierarchical
needs is relationship building.
Christine (11:13):
Exactly.
And the other thing too is it'sinteresting as, in terms of
defining it, in adult attachmentstyles actually the language is
slightly different than thelanguages that are used and
which is kind of surprises me,like I think it's a little
insecure.
Attachment is something thatyou'll see in journalistic
(11:33):
writing because it's easier tounderstand, but the terms that
are used in social psychologyare still trying to track those
childhood attachment styles.
So obviously in adults youstart with with secure, like,
and let's just say off the batthat you know.
You looked at the percentages.
What's the current percentageof just secure attachment style?
Shannon (11:54):
55% of adults.
Report has secure attachment.
Christine (11:58):
Okay, so that's over half, which is good, and what
secure attachment means that isessentially, these are people
who enjoy long-termrelationships, have a lot less
trust issues because they'veexperienced trust in their
childhood, and they also havegreater self-esteem, enjoy
(12:19):
interacting with other peopleand also know how to reciprocate
feelings, which is kind of animportant element when we're
talking about adultrelationships, especially adult
romantic relationship.
Shannon (12:32):
Yeah, yeah, and we'll get into it in more detail.
But of course you can kind ofsee the immediate connection
between the disorganizedattachment style and that right,
because if that's constantlyinconsistent then it's gonna be
very hard for you toconsistently reciprocate
feelings.
Christine (12:46):
Right, right.
So what?
We I mean we all strive to asecure attachment style,
basically because we want ourrelationships to be healthy.
The next one that you hear alot about and I find, actually
that you hear so much about itthat you think it is the
majority which is the anxious,preoccupied attachment style.
Yeah, that's the anxious personthat's clingy.
(13:09):
That's the anxious personthat's overly dependent.
That's the person who doesn'tget a text back in 63 seconds
and freaks out.
Shannon (13:19):
yeah, Okay.
And again though the text backand forth, Yep, and attaching
that pattern to sort of theevolution of the style.
When they're a kid, they're notcomforted when their parents
return.
Even though their parent comesback or their caregiver comes
back and expresses love andaffection again, the child still
holds on to that feeling ofabandonment or that feeling of
being left behind.
(13:39):
So in adulthood, the way thatthat can manifest is feeling
distraught or feeling freakingout because your partner
disappears for a few minutes ora few hours, or whatever it is.
Christine (13:51):
And that's an important facet, Shannon, One of
the things that's very commonis being overly concerned with
the relationship itself andbeing overly concerned about
what their partner thinks ofthem.
So if this is a style, it'sgonna feel very maybe threatened
.
If you have other friends thatyou talk to, that you confide in
(14:12):
and feel like, well, how doesthat reflect on me?
And it does come from that lackof secure base and you can see
how that translates fromchildhood to adult relationships
.
Shannon (14:26):
Yeah, it also kind of feels like that self-fulfilling
prophecy of being afraid ofcoming close to other people,
worrying all the time abouttheir reciprocation of feelings
being very stressed out whencommunication isn't reciprocated
or whatever.
If you put too much weight intoall of that, then, yes, your
relationship won't work.
But is that a chicken or an eggthing, right?
Christine (14:47):
right.
It's almost like your behavioris gonna create the behavior
you're afraid of Right, butyou're also 100% correct that
this is only 20%.
Shannon (14:57):
Of people actually have anxious attachment styles, but
it's the one that is talkedabout the most in media,
especially yeah yeah, andanother one I think that's
talked about, probably the nextmost, is the idea of this
avoidant dismissive.
Christine (15:12):
This is your classic I don't want any commitment, I
don't want any attachment.
Shannon (15:17):
I don't need any relationship.
This is your stereotypical,non-committal male TV bro, and
it's not his fault, but this isthe style that is most
frequently attributed to I don'twant a relationship.
I'm just the hot bartender andI can get anyone I want.
Well, sure, when we really talkabout it, my mother never loved
me, but I'm still just a coolguy.
Christine (15:39):
Well, stereotypes aside, the research actually
does support that individualswith this avoided, dismissive
style do tend to be moreinterested in casual sex.
Casual attachments tend toengage in riskier sex, taking
those types of behaviors kind ofto the nth degree, and the idea
(15:59):
is that they have difficultywith close and intimate
relationships.
They don't know how to shareemotions and feelings and they
kind of are a parade of the ideaof actually being dependent on
anyone else.
Shannon (16:14):
You know, what's funny is this just reminded me of the
movie called how to Be Single,which is the flip side of
romantic relationships or, inthat case, lack thereof.
But there is a character in themovie how to Be Single that
again, basically, is exactly whoI was just describing.
Is this bartender who enjoyscasual sex because he doesn't
like there's attachments and hehas this whole.
(16:36):
He has this whole plan, thiswhole strategy, where he doesn't
keep more than one cup in hishouse because he doesn't want a
woman to be able to get herselfa cup of water and he turns the
water off so that she can'tshower there.
Like he says this whole thingand it's wild, but it's all
about, you know, doesn't want toshare his feelings or his
(16:57):
thoughts or his emotions, so hejust like, makes it about casual
sex and the first time that heactually connects to someone he
kind of freaks out becauseavoiding attachment is his style
.
And all of a sudden, when hecan't avoid someone, he's like
well, I guess this is it, Iguess we're in love, I guess we
should get married.
And she's like just becauseyou're finally working through
your attachment style doesn'tmean that you and I are supposed
to be, which is weirdly a kindof smart and profound point to
(17:21):
come out of the movie how to BeSingle.
Christine (17:23):
Yeah, very profound for a rom-com.
Shannon (17:26):
Truly though you know and it's, he's a bartender and
that you know one of the thingsthat the research will say about
this attachment style is thatsometimes it's the people who
overwork themselves, like workreally late hours and have
really crazy schedules, becausethey'll blame the lack of, you
know, connection and the lack ofemotional vulnerability on not
having the time, which, again tokind of go back to that article
(17:47):
about Gen Z that's one of thefactors they pointed to with the
quote unquote insecureattachment style was I don't
have time to develop thoserelationships, so well, and
that's why I think, shannon,that when they're talking about
the insecure attachment, Ireally think they are talking
about this avoidant dismissal.
Christine (18:01):
Totally, totally.
Yeah, I give, I don't have timefor a relationship.
I don't want to be dependent onanyone else.
I'm pursuing my whole lifegoals and you know what?
I can have some fun on the side, but I don't really run a
relationship.
So one more attachment style tocover that kind of flows from
that disorganized attachmentstyle we talked about with
regard to children is this ideaof avoidant and fearful.
(18:25):
So this is like the kind ofimperfect mix of you know,
someone who actually wants arelationship but it really has
no clue how to go about it.
So they have the negativeopinion of themselves as the
anxious person would.
They have distrust of otherpeople.
(18:45):
They do want a relationship,but they don't know how to go
about it and they're afraid ofgetting hurt.
So that's just like, wow,that's a lot going on.
Shannon (18:54):
Yeah, it's a lot, but it's also.
You know what that translatesto is.
This is often the person whotends to think that they don't
deserve that relationship.
They tend to think that, youknow, they have a deficit that
makes it hard for them tosustain that kind of
relationship.
So that's the kind of flip sideof it is they are not great at
developing relationships in asuper organic or natural way,
(19:17):
because their relationships whenthey were children weren't
developed in a super organic andnatural way.
Christine (19:23):
The biggest difference between the
dismissive and the fearful isthat the fearful folk actually
want a relationship.
They just don't know how to getfrom point A to point B because
they haven't had that modeledand it's part of their
upbringing.
Shannon (19:35):
Yeah right, I mean that's.
It's trust issues.
It's like a huge, huge trustissue, complex.
That makes a lot of sense,given the upbringing, and I
think it's fair to say it's theone that has kind of the least
research around it, because it'sthe smallest percentage.
It's only 5% of people fallinto that category according to,
like, the modern studies on it,but it does seem like it does
(19:57):
seem like the relationshipbetween childhood and adulthood,
with that style in particular,makes a lot of sense.
Well, there is work that needsto be worked through.
Christine (20:07):
I wonder, shannon to, if those numbers are a little
low when you think of theresearch that is out there that
describes that.
Your full avoidance stylethey're really looking at people
who have internal conflictsounds to me like more than 5%.
The overly dramatic in thecontext of relationships seems
like might be more than 5% andunpredictable in relationships.
(20:30):
So you know, those numbers Ithink are you know, these are
all just like general estimatesanyway, but it's important I
think, and part of the reasonwe're talking about this on the
podcast, is to be aware thatthese attachment styles are
actually valid, research basedways that people approach
(20:51):
relationships which are notnecessarily completely like
quote unquote their fault.
They're the result of certainpatterns.
Because they're result ofpatterns, that means these
patterns can be changed if youwant to change them.
Shannon (21:09):
Yeah, I mean in the last example, love bombing is
something that's reallyassociated with the fearful
attachment style, which makessense because it's I think we've
talked about it on the showbefore but it's that whole
slingshot theory where if youpull too far in one direction it
goes all the way in the other.
So you're afraid, so you pullback in one direction, then
you'll launch it and you lovebomb.
But the thing about that islike OK, if you're having
(21:32):
disorganized attachment styleand you love bomb, ok, love
bombing was wrong, but there areparts of that that are still
progress.
There are parts of yourwillingness to develop a
relationship like you don't wantto love bomb, obviously, but to
your point, within every styleof attachment there are ways to
work through that attachment,especially by acknowledging the
sources.
Now, by the same token, youcan't just blame your parents if
(21:56):
you end up having an attachmentstyle.
That's not great in adultrelationships, because you do
have the ability to work throughthose things if you identify
the problem.
Christine (22:03):
That's critical, shannon, because I do think
there are a lot.
I see a lot of stuff on variousFacebook groups that I'm a part
of that are just like, well,I'm anxious attachment, that's
what I am, and it's like, well,no, you can understand that
you're starting from that point.
But research does show thatrelationships impact the next
relationship.
(22:23):
You can tell a partner, hey,I've come from an anxious
attachment style that I'm reallyworried.
Can you text me more often?
Can you give me words ofaffirmation in the words of love
languages?
Can you do these things to helpme along and to meet somewhere
in the middle, and hopefullythere's an opportunity to grow
(22:47):
into a more secure attachmentstyle.
But it does just like we talkabout all the time on the show.
A lot of it has to do with withone, self-awareness and two,
being willing to communicatethat to a partner.
And three, a partner who iswilling to be receptive to it.
You know who's willing to putin the work to kind of meet in
the middle at some point.
(23:07):
Obviously a lot easier ifyou're working with one of the
partners that has a secureattachment style.
A little bit more complicatedwhen you're dealing with two of
the other.
You know one of the otherstyles.
Shannon (23:19):
Yeah, I saw an interesting post today and it's
funny because I saw this postafter we had already, you know,
decided to do this episode andit was actually about five steps
for building a securerelationship, and it was from
Queer Sex Therapy, which isanother.
I think they have a podcast,but they also have an Instagram
(23:41):
and whatever.
And one thing that I foundreally fascinating was it said
that one of the best ways tobuild a secure relationship is
to not get trapped in newrelationship energy in NRE,
which we've talked about on theshow before.
But it says new relationshipenergy offers the guise of
security, which can make it thatmuch more distressing when we
start to feel anxious as hell afew months in because you
(24:02):
basically tricked yourself intothinking everything was great
and then it's like well, thetruth is, after a few months,
your attachment style is goingto come out, whether it's the
best relationship or the worstrelationship or whatever.
So some of the pieces of advicethat they gave were one be a
little bit inconvenient.
When you have NRE, you kind ofcan find yourself being super
adaptable and flexible.
(24:22):
So you break your ownboundaries because you're
excited, but hold yourboundaries and even though it
might be like you want to spendall that time with someone.
It's going to be more securefor you in the long run if you
adapt to your usual boundariesand your usual thresholds versus
being hyper flexible andbuilding that as the expectation
for your relationship.
That's excellent advice.
Christine (24:41):
Actually, we do tend to make a lot of space for a new
relationship and along thoselines, before you go on to the
other recommendations, I want topoint out there's a very I
think it's actually abestselling book in the
polyamorous world ConsensualNominongamine World called
Polysecure by Jessica Fern, andthat's actually what she talks
(25:06):
about is you have to maintainyour existing relationship even
when NRE happens, and it'sinteresting that you have this
blog post here that's kind ofsaying the same things in the
context of kind of a monogamousrelationship, like maintain your
relationships with your friends, maintain your relationship
with your family, maintain yourrelationship with yourself.
(25:28):
Don't put everything else asidefor the new relationship.
Shannon (25:32):
No, exactly, and you hit it on the head because the
first one was being convenientDon't just spend over backwards
for your partner, and that waskind of the first one.
But the next one is schedulealone time.
Make sure you're still spendingtime with yourself so that you
don't lose yourself.
Yeah, keep your friendsinvolved.
Don't knock your friends out ofthe picture.
One of the things that'sinteresting about that even just
the last couple of things thatI just listed off is when we
think about stereotypically kindof what an unhealthy or an
(25:55):
abusive relationship is, a lotof times the things associated
with that are they isolate youfrom your friends, they isolate
you from yourself.
So, okay, on the opposite sideof that, don't relinquish those
parts of you.
Stay in touch with those partsof you.
And then, well, one thing kindof on the flip side of that
which I thought was lovely isyou're maintaining your
boundaries.
Don't be hyper flexible.
(26:16):
Be a little inconvenient.
Make sure you're still loopingin your friends, you keep those
circles going, but build ritualswith your new partner.
If that ritual is you go to themovies once a week, or you make
dinner once a week, or whateverit is, you can't do that, or
you make dinner once a week orwhatever it is, or you grab a
drink once a week, whatever itis, that makes sense for you, if
you establish a ritual thatgives you security, even when
there are things that you arenot secure about.
So, and then the last one,that's very smart advice, very
(26:38):
smart advice.
Well, and what I liked aboutthis post and again it's queer
sex therapy but what I likedabout this post is that the last
tip was to know what you don'tknow, like stay humble, and
you're not going to knoweverything about your partner.
There's going to be things thatcome up, there's going to be
surprises.
Same thing goes for you.
It goes both ways.
But if you maintain your senseof self and your independence a
little bit and you have yourboundaries and you stay true to
(26:59):
your thresholds, but you alsoestablish new rituals and new
scheduled things with yourpartner, then in a perfect world
, ideally, even as you get hitwith the things that you don't
know, there will be enough thatyou do know that you can still
feel secure.
Christine (27:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's really great advice and I would
like underline that advice evenmore that if you are a person
who is fortunate enough torecognize in yourself that you
actually have a secureattachment style, be sure to
give grace to a potentialpartner that might not be coming
from that background.
And as you learn more and moreabout a new person, you tend to
(27:33):
learn more about their familyand their upbringing and what
types of past experiencesthey've had with other
relationships.
And, as I've said, it's notjust childhood, it's past
relationships that inform thenext one.
And it's up to you in some ways, to you know, if you are a bit
more secure, to kind of helpthat other person along and
recognize it and maybe even askthe questions that need to be
(27:56):
asked, especially if you thinkthat you know your potential
partner might be one of theavoidant, dismissive ones.
I think you might want to findthat out kind of early on,
before you realign your entireschedule to accommodate this
person who might not actuallywant to be into that type of
relationship anyway, you know,yeah, so there's a lot of this
(28:19):
is about awareness and likecommunication, like you said.
Shannon (28:24):
Yeah, no, it's interesting and it's funny.
You know, looking at thedifferent studies, depending on
what study you look at,somewhere between 55 and 70% of
participants say that theirattachment style is still what
it was when they were a child,and then like 30-ish percent say
that it's changed.
But just because you identifywith a certain attachment style
does not mean that you cannotmove beyond that attachment
(28:46):
style or learn to be flexiblewithin your attachment style or,
as you were pointing out, justkind of like making the changes
and the upgrades basically youneed to make to maintain a
healthy relationship and wetalked about this before the
episode.
But it's similar to like a lovelanguage you might have a
certain language but you can beflexible with that and you can
be flexible with which languageyou speak to your partner and
(29:07):
they can be flexible with thelanguage they speak back.
Christine (29:10):
You know, and I think another thing to point out to
everybody is you know we all dowant healthy, secure
relationships and I think forthose people who are in anxious,
preoccupied and avoidant andfearful in particular, part of
this is cultivating that youdeserve that secure relationship
(29:30):
, totally Believing that you canget there and believing that
those relationships are possiblefor you.
Because I think what troublesme when I see so many people
posting about I'm anxious, I'mavoidant, like they think that
that is who they are and that'swhat they're stuck with, and
part of that is then believingthat maybe you're not entitled
(29:51):
to a beautiful, healthy, securerelationship and we're all
entitled to that and we're allentitled to have that feeling of
security and trust and intimacyin our relationships.
Shannon (30:04):
Yeah, I mean it wouldn't be a sex-debunked
episode if we didn't mentionfood or sports.
So I'm going to go with food onthis one.
You know, you can know, thatyou are sensitive to dairy, but
that doesn't mean you don't getto pop a lactate and enjoy some
cheese every once in a while.
You can be aware, without beingdoomed, that's true.
Christine (30:23):
You can be aware of it and you can make
accommodations in relationships.
That just because you're alactate intolerant doesn't mean
you don't get to eat.
You can still have beautiful,you can still eat, right.
That's what milk is for, that'sright.
I love, actually, that actuallyworks.
That you can still have agourmet, you know, beautifully
(30:43):
cultivated meal, even though youhave this one thing that might
impact the fact that you can'thave cheese, which is, of course
, very, very simple, which is,of course, a tragedy, so sorry.
Shannon (30:56):
Now, while we're on the subject of things that are
funny, I did want to mention twoadditional studies that I
stumbled across in my researchfor this episode that just kind
of made me laugh.
One of them is that there isalso a relationship between
attachment styles and peoplebeing attached to their pets.
Yeah, yeah.
So, to no surprise, the anxiousattached pet owners exhibit a
(31:22):
heightened need for proximityand concern about losing their
pets, while avoidantly attachedowners seek independence and
fear the loss of personalautonomy for things like having
to get home to take care oftheir dog.
So I didn't go this deep intothe research, but I'm going to
go out on a limb here and saythat dogs are probably the
better pet fit for the anxiousattached and avoid attached and
(31:46):
cats would be avoided.
Christine (31:48):
Avoidant attached.
Shannon (31:49):
Yeah, and I guess if you're really self, I guess if
you're really secure, you canjust have something like a
turtle that is there when youneed it and is it going to make
you feel?
Christine (31:58):
better.
So, as you know, we have twocats and a dog.
What does that say about ourattack?
Maybe?
Shannon (32:03):
you're secure.
Maybe it evens out.
We'll have to look into moreresearch on that and let you
know, but I did find that veryfunny and then, kind of tying
into that initial research thatwe talked about about Gen Z and
whatever, there is a study thatcame out recently about
attachment styles influencingthe tendency to form emotional
bonds with smartphones, whichindividuals with anxious
(32:25):
attachment styles tend to formstronger emotional bonds with
their smartphones.
They're also more likely to usesocial media.
Interestingly, though, secureattachment folks also use social
media a lot, and that's because, to them, it's an extension of
their secure interpersonalidentity.
Christine (32:41):
They use it differently.
They use it very differently,right.
Shannon (32:44):
They use it in different ways.
But I did think it wasinteresting, if not mildly
disturbing, that there is enoughresearch to have a study with
actual support for therelationship between your phone
and your attachment style.
But then again, not surprisingat all, because we have a lot of
research about things like cellphone brain drain and the way
that your cognitive energy isdrained by your attention to
your cell phone.
(33:04):
I make myself feel better aboutit by thinking my phone's just
my friend.
Christine (33:09):
Well, let's see along those lines.
However, last week we talked alittle bit about the new
research from the sexualityconference I went to.
There was actually someresearch presented about
attachments with models who dovideo camming and actually
talking about the feelings of ina positive way, as a little
(33:32):
step forward for people who haveavoidant dismissive styles or
avoidant fearful styles to startdeveloping relationships.
As we talk about these articlesthat say Gen Z is insecure
because they don't have therelationship skills, there's
actually a little bit ofdeveloping research saying that
(33:52):
interactions with webcam modelsand stuff is actually, weirdly,
a step in the right directionbecause they're actually
interacting with live humans.
Shannon (34:03):
That reminds me of the movie her, her, the movie her
with Maquin Phoenix and kind ofI mean Walk in Phoenix yeah,
he's just walking right along.
But similar like yeah, she's avoice on a phone, but she
teaches him a lot more aboutrelationships and feeling heard.
Ultimately, the attachmentdoesn't work out super great.
(34:23):
Spoiler alert.
But there is something to besaid for even temporary secure
relationships, still helping youmake your way towards a secure
relationship.
Christine (34:32):
Yeah, and these webcam models actually, you know
, the better ones, the ones whohave a more successful career,
actually cultivate how tocommunicate and develop a
connection with people.
That the research suggests isnot entirely fate, that it
actually is grounded in a needto create a connection.
(34:52):
Whether it's the deep level ofintimate connection that the
viewers think they're getting,that's questionable.
But there actually is amotivation to create connection,
because creating connectionwith clients brings the clients
back and brings them back in andwatching, but not in a
necessarily negative ornefarious way, something that
(35:13):
the research is suggesting couldpotentially be a positive thing
.
Shannon (35:18):
So, yeah, Well, this one this reference goes out to
my millennial listeners outthere but ever since, you know,
napoleon Dynamite and Kip and LaFonda met online and
established a beautifulrelationship and things got
pretty serious.
I've always believed in thepower of building a secure
attachment through the internet.
Christine (35:37):
Well, you know, media literacy, it's a thing, it's
important.
Shannon (35:41):
It's important.
So that is it for the episodeon attachment styles.
You know we're going into theholidays.
You're going to be around yourfamily.
You're going to be around thepeople that maybe I don't know
did this to you.
That's kidding.
Give them some grace, but alsogive them some grace.
We know it all is joking aside.
I mean, the holidays can be areally tough time for a lot of
folks, especially our LGBTQcommunity.
(36:03):
So give yourself some grace,give yourself some patience and
lean on the secure networks youdo have in your life and that'll
all help you towards buildingsecure attachment.
Christine (36:14):
Very well framed.
Shannon, Lean on your securepeople.
So I guess we need to say thatthat's another myth Night night,
sleep well.
Shannon (36:27):
Attachment style Actually, that reminds me.
My attachment style isdefinitely that I still have my
baby blanket on my bed, which Ithink is normal, because I know
at least four people that dothat.
I still have T yeah, see, thereyou go.
I got butter.
Christine (36:39):
We're all, we're good , we're good, yeah, he still has
Teddy.
So we're all there.
So we're there, yeah.
Shannon (36:47):
So thanks for joining us this week with another study
session.
We are wishing you a happy,healthy holiday season with the
people who make you feel themost secure and most loved.
If you've got any other mythsyou'd like us to debunk or
topics you'd like us to cover,you know where to find us at Sex
Ed Debunked on all the socials,or shoot us an email at
sexeddebunkedcom.
Christine (37:04):
Take care everyone.
Happy holidays.
I know Thanks for tuning in forthis week's episode of Sex Ed
Debunked During the course ofour podcast.
We have limited time together,which means that, unfortunately,
many identities, groups andmovements may not be represented
(37:25):
each week.
The field of sexuality andgender orientations, identities
and behaviors are changing andgrowing rapidly, and we remain
committed to being as inclusiveas possible.
Shannon (37:35):
Please remember that all of us, including us, are
learning in this area and mayoccasionally slip up.
We ask that we all continue tobe kind to one another so that
we can create a truly inclusiveand accepting environment.
As always, if you have anyquestions or comments, please
feel free to reach out to us atSex Ed Debunked on Instagram,
facebook and Twitter.
Christine (37:55):
Sex Ed Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media in
Providence, Rhode Island.
Our sound producer is EzraWinters, with production
assistance from Shea Winter.
Hi, this is Sex.
Ed Debunked across-generational podcast
hosted by mother-daughter duo,christine and Shannon Curley.
Shannon (00:10):
Every episode we tackle a new myth about sex, sexuality
and pleasure, and use researchand expert insights to debunk
stereotypes and misinformationfrom the bedroom and beyond.
In 2022,.
We won the American Associationof Sexuality Educators,
counselors and Therapists Awardfor Best Podcasts and also
managed to not totally freak outour family and friends along
the way.
Christine (00:29):
We'll leave a healthy sex-positive, pleasure-focused
sex education backed by realresearch and real experience.
Shannon (00:34):
Follow us on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter at Sex Ed
Debunked, or email us atsexeddebunkedcom to share your
sex miseducation tales and themyths you'd like to hear us
debunk.
Thanks for listening.
This is Sex.
Ed Debunked across-generational podcast about
sex education, sexual health,and that one time my therapist
told me to be more codependent.
Yeah, true story.
(00:56):
Her words not mine.
Yeah, is that what therapistsare saying now?
It's definitely not, and it'sdefinitely not what they should
be saying.
I think it was maybe just a badday, but it will always amuse
me that she was like hey, youknow that thing.
You guys hear about being bad,do more of it.
Oh well.
Christine (01:09):
Okay, we'll be calling her out today, like you
said, maybe just a bad day, butanyway, on this week's episode,
we're covering a topic that iskind of foundational to any
relationship attachment style.
Shannon (01:23):
Mm-hmm.
So I think a lot of people haveheard about attachment styles,
but one thing that's importantto note right off the bat is
that when we're talking aboutattachment styles for kids and
adults, we're talking aboutdifferent things.
So attachment styles forchildren is about how children
and parents interact, and that'slike early childhood.
And then in adulthood we talkabout attachment styles to
describe patterns of attachmentin romantic relationships, and
(01:46):
so there's kind of two takes onattachment styles, but that's
all derived from attachmenttheory right, mom.
Christine (01:54):
Well, it's attachment theory.
But essentially what the theoryis is your attachment style in
childhood translates to yourattachment style in adult
relationships.
So the myth we're debunkingtoday is attachment styles end
in childhood.
Shannon (02:11):
Yeah, and even beyond that, some of the research that
was kind of inspiring thisepisode.
Not your research, sorry.
What was inspiring this episodein kind of current events and
current reporting is that thatrelationship isn't necessarily
true.
There are things from yourchildhood that can affect your
romantic relationships, but thatdoesn't mean that there aren't
plenty of intervening factors inthe middle of childhood and
(02:32):
adulthood.
So something that wasinteresting that I read about
and again kind of inspired thisepisode is two articles.
One was an article that justsaid the headline was Gen Z has
insecure attachment styles.
Here's what to do about it asan entire generation.
Well, and it said that therewas a meta review that said,
compared with college studentsin the late 1980s, a much larger
(02:53):
proportion of students todayagree that they are quote,
comfortable without closeemotional relationships and the
different factors that theyattribute that to are having
less time to interact with otherpeople, having less trust with
other people, having more thingsdistracting them so they're not
as able to focus.
And then also, what I found wasinteresting, no relational
practice.
Quote unquote.
Christine (03:14):
So yeah, yeah, and the research too.
Shannon (03:18):
And what you think, when you think about COVID being
a really easy example, is likeyou're literally not practicing
real relationships with peopleif you're online all the time,
and COVID wasn't the start ofthis, but it definitely
exacerbated it.
And then the other article thatI saw that was similar said you
know, america's in its insecureattachment era was the name, so
thanks Taylor Swift for makingera a trendy term.
(03:38):
But social psychologist SarahConrath identified a 15%
decrease in secure attachmentbetween 1988 and 2011.
So just a lot of interestingmodern reports and studies that
point to the fact that newergenerations are seeing much
lower secure attachment styles.
Christine (03:58):
So I think, shannon, before we kind of get into
really what each adultattachment style means, I think
we need to kind of delve intothe real foundational background
of how the development and theidea of attachment styles in
children kind of came about.
Sure, yeah.
So back in the old days ofsocial psychology, a sociologist
(04:22):
called Mary Ainsworth developeda paradigm to test what she
called the strange situation,and what she was looking to
examine is how young toddlersreacted when a caregiver left
the room.
Shannon (04:42):
Also, I want to contextualize that when we say
the olden days, we are referringto the 1970s.
It's not, like you know, the19th century.
It was, it was.
It was 1970s ago, Sure, but youknow, just to be clear, we
didn't mean you know, the beforetimes we met, no, no.
Christine (05:00):
But but it's kind of it's kind of old in this in the
context of social psychologythat there was.
The evolution of psychology wasso much before that, you know,
psychoanalytical and aboutbehaviorism.
So social psychology is arelatively new science in
psychology.
So Mary Ainsworth developedthis what she called strange
(05:24):
situation and she had childrenin playing and having caregivers
present, and examined how thechildren would react both when
the caregiver left the room andthen when the caregiver came
back.
Shannon (05:43):
And I believe another element of that was a stranger
entered the room, not just withthe child, with the parent there
too, but testing that bond tobetween a stranger parent and
child Right.
Christine (05:54):
But the primary aspect in terms of attachment
style was looking to see how thechild reacted when the parent
was in the room, how the childreacted when the parents left
and how the child reacted whenthe parent came back.
So secure attachment prettymakes sense.
So the cure attachment actually, because the mom, caregiver is
(06:17):
seen as a secure base, the babyactually or toddler actually
gets upset when the, when thechild, when the mom leaves or
caregiver leaves, but on returnalmost immediately calms down.
So that describes somebody whois secure, kind of venturing out
and coming back, because theyalways know that someone's going
(06:40):
to come back.
The second style that wasobserved was a style called
avoidant and insecure and thatwould be a child that when whose
caregiver is not emotionallyavailable.
So that would be the child whodidn't even notice when the
(07:01):
caregiver left the room.
Shannon (07:03):
And another aspect of that again because part of this
was bringing a stranger into theroom is that they don't really
show any preference for theircaregiver over a stranger,
Exactly.
Christine (07:14):
The third style that they looked at was something
called anxious and insecure, andthat child was clingy.
That's the one who was anxiousand clinging to the caregiver
when they were leaving the roomVery, very guarded around
strangers and also when thecaregiver returned, would be
(07:36):
angry and upset.
Shannon (07:39):
Interesting and so like .
From you know I get.
Obviously you've done theresearch and you have your
perspective on this.
So your point of view why is itthat they're not comforted when
the parent returns?
Christine (07:49):
Because they are, the parent has not provided enough
of a secure base.
So that would be a parent whoperhaps might be inconsistent in
relationship, inconsistent inattention, consistent in
caregiving.
So that requires this wholeanxious like come back, come
(08:11):
back, because there's no trustand security that the caregiver
is going to come back.
Shannon (08:16):
Yeah, yeah that makes sense.
Christine (08:18):
And then there's a fourth right the fourth one is
called, has been termed asdisorganized, which is kind of
that.
It's actually like almost likeinconsistent to the nth degree,
in the sense that that caregivermight shower with affection and
gifts and then on the next daycompletely ignore that, ignore
(08:42):
that child and, as a result, thechild's reaction in the
situation is kind of all overthe place and a little bit
unpredictable, which is why it'scalled disorganized.
Yeah, and attachment styles inchildren.
Shannon (08:55):
And another interesting thing about the disorganized
attachment style is that it'sone of the ones where they track
more changes and this is justbased on some of the research I
did but they track more changesbased on the age of the child.
So for a lot of attachmentstyles in children you kind of
witness it throughout theirlifespan and then they go into
adolescence and maturity andthen they transition sort of
(09:17):
into the romantic.
But for the disorganizedattachment style they're
different at age one maybe, thenthey are at age five, then they
are at age six, and that'sbecause of the way that their
relationship with their parentsshifts so much more seismically
really than the other attachmentstyles do.
There is more consistency inthe other three attachment
styles and then theinconsistency is mirrored more
(09:38):
throughout the years.
With a child who has adisorganized attachment style
Exactly.
Christine (09:43):
So the disorganized one is kind of the one that I
think researchers are having thehardest time really defining,
because it is disorganized,right.
Shannon (09:52):
So that's childhood, and while it is important to
note that you're not necessarilystuck with it forever which is
part of what our myth is todebunk today the research does
indicate that those patternsthat are established in
childhood do have an impact onadult relationships.
Christine (10:08):
They could, and that was John Volby and continued
Mary Ainsworth research in adultattachment styles and looked at
to see and looked researchedlongitudinally to see how the
attachment styles and childrenwould create would translate to
an adult emotional relationship.
And honestly, shen, that's whatwe hear when we hear, when you
(10:31):
read articles like that andthey're saying Incasive,
insecure Attachment.
They're not talking about Gen Zhaving insecure attachment as
children, they're talking abouthaving that attachment style in
their adult relationships.
Shannon (10:43):
And I want to say, just even fundamentally, part of the
reason.
So we briefly touched on theresearch that Gen Z has more
insecure attachment styles andwhatever.
Fundamentally, the reason whythis is problematic or scary or
disheartening is because thisattachment, the ability to make
emotional bonds to individualsand form meaningful
(11:04):
relationships, is a basiccomponent of human nature.
It is important, it is one ofthe most important hierarchical
needs is relationship building.
Christine (11:13):
Exactly.
And the other thing too is it'sinteresting as, in terms of
defining it, in adult attachmentstyles actually the language is
slightly different than thelanguages that are used and
which is kind of surprises me,like I think it's a little
insecure.
Attachment is something thatyou'll see in journalistic
(11:33):
writing because it's easier tounderstand, but the terms that
are used in social psychologyare still trying to track those
childhood attachment styles.
So obviously in adults youstart with with secure, like,
and let's just say off the batthat you know.
You looked at the percentages.
What's the current percentageof just secure attachment style?
Shannon (11:54):
55% of adults.
Report has secure attachment.
Christine (11:58):
Okay, so that's over half, which is good, and what
secure attachment means that isessentially, these are people
who enjoy long-termrelationships, have a lot less
trust issues because they'veexperienced trust in their
childhood, and they also havegreater self-esteem, enjoy
(12:19):
interacting with other peopleand also know how to reciprocate
feelings, which is kind of animportant element when we're
talking about adultrelationships, especially adult
romantic relationship.
Shannon (12:32):
Yeah, yeah, and we'll get into it in more detail.
But of course you can kind ofsee the immediate connection
between the disorganizedattachment style and that right,
because if that's constantlyinconsistent then it's gonna be
very hard for you toconsistently reciprocate
feelings.
Christine (12:46):
Right, right.
So what?
We I mean we all strive to asecure attachment style,
basically because we want ourrelationships to be healthy.
The next one that you hear alot about and I find, actually
that you hear so much about itthat you think it is the
majority which is the anxious,preoccupied attachment style.
Yeah, that's the anxious personthat's clingy.
(13:09):
That's the anxious personthat's overly dependent.
That's the person who doesn'tget a text back in 63 seconds
and freaks out.
Shannon (13:19):
yeah, Okay.
And again though the text backand forth, Yep, and attaching
that pattern to sort of theevolution of the style.
When they're a kid, they're notcomforted when their parents
return.
Even though their parent comesback or their caregiver comes
back and expresses love andaffection again, the child still
holds on to that feeling ofabandonment or that feeling of
being left behind.
(13:39):
So in adulthood, the way thatthat can manifest is feeling
distraught or feeling freakingout because your partner
disappears for a few minutes ora few hours, or whatever it is.
Christine (13:51):
And that's an important facet, Shannon, One of
the things that's very commonis being overly concerned with
the relationship itself andbeing overly concerned about
what their partner thinks ofthem.
So if this is a style, it'sgonna feel very maybe threatened
.
If you have other friends thatyou talk to, that you confide in
(14:12):
and feel like, well, how doesthat reflect on me?
And it does come from that lackof secure base and you can see
how that translates fromchildhood to adult relationships
.
Shannon (14:26):
Yeah, it also kind of feels like that self-fulfilling
prophecy of being afraid ofcoming close to other people,
worrying all the time abouttheir reciprocation of feelings
being very stressed out whencommunication isn't reciprocated
or whatever.
If you put too much weight intoall of that, then, yes, your
relationship won't work.
But is that a chicken or an eggthing, right?
Christine (14:47):
right.
It's almost like your behavioris gonna create the behavior
you're afraid of Right, butyou're also 100% correct that
this is only 20%.
Shannon (14:57):
Of people actually have anxious attachment styles, but
it's the one that is talkedabout the most in media,
especially yeah yeah, andanother one I think that's
talked about, probably the nextmost, is the idea of this
avoidant dismissive.
Christine (15:12):
This is your classic I don't want any commitment, I
don't want any attachment.
Shannon (15:17):
I don't need any relationship.
This is your stereotypical,non-committal male TV bro, and
it's not his fault, but this isthe style that is most
frequently attributed to I don'twant a relationship.
I'm just the hot bartender andI can get anyone I want.
Well, sure, when we really talkabout it, my mother never loved
me, but I'm still just a coolguy.
Christine (15:39):
Well, stereotypes aside, the research actually
does support that individualswith this avoided, dismissive
style do tend to be moreinterested in casual sex.
Casual attachments tend toengage in riskier sex, taking
those types of behaviors kind ofto the nth degree, and the idea
(15:59):
is that they have difficultywith close and intimate
relationships.
They don't know how to shareemotions and feelings and they
kind of are a parade of the ideaof actually being dependent on
anyone else.
Shannon (16:14):
You know, what's funny is this just reminded me of the
movie called how to Be Single,which is the flip side of
romantic relationships or, inthat case, lack thereof.
But there is a character in themovie how to Be Single that
again, basically, is exactly whoI was just describing.
Is this bartender who enjoyscasual sex because he doesn't
like there's attachments and hehas this whole.
(16:36):
He has this whole plan, thiswhole strategy, where he doesn't
keep more than one cup in hishouse because he doesn't want a
woman to be able to get herselfa cup of water and he turns the
water off so that she can'tshower there.
Like he says this whole thingand it's wild, but it's all
about, you know, doesn't want toshare his feelings or his
(16:57):
thoughts or his emotions, so hejust like, makes it about casual
sex and the first time that heactually connects to someone he
kind of freaks out becauseavoiding attachment is his style
.
And all of a sudden, when hecan't avoid someone, he's like
well, I guess this is it, Iguess we're in love, I guess we
should get married.
And she's like just becauseyou're finally working through
your attachment style doesn'tmean that you and I are supposed
to be, which is weirdly a kindof smart and profound point to
(17:21):
come out of the movie how to BeSingle.
Christine (17:23):
Yeah, very profound for a rom-com.
Shannon (17:26):
Truly though you know and it's, he's a bartender and
that you know one of the thingsthat the research will say about
this attachment style is thatsometimes it's the people who
overwork themselves, like workreally late hours and have
really crazy schedules, becausethey'll blame the lack of, you
know, connection and the lack ofemotional vulnerability on not
having the time, which, again tokind of go back to that article
(17:47):
about Gen Z that's one of thefactors they pointed to with the
quote unquote insecureattachment style was I don't
have time to develop thoserelationships, so well, and
that's why I think, shannon,that when they're talking about
the insecure attachment, Ireally think they are talking
about this avoidant dismissal.
Christine (18:01):
Totally, totally.
Yeah, I give, I don't have timefor a relationship.
I don't want to be dependent onanyone else.
I'm pursuing my whole lifegoals and you know what?
I can have some fun on the side, but I don't really run a
relationship.
So one more attachment style tocover that kind of flows from
that disorganized attachmentstyle we talked about with
regard to children is this ideaof avoidant and fearful.
(18:25):
So this is like the kind ofimperfect mix of you know,
someone who actually wants arelationship but it really has
no clue how to go about it.
So they have the negativeopinion of themselves as the
anxious person would.
They have distrust of otherpeople.
(18:45):
They do want a relationship,but they don't know how to go
about it and they're afraid ofgetting hurt.
So that's just like, wow,that's a lot going on.
Shannon (18:54):
Yeah, it's a lot, but it's also.
You know what that translatesto is.
This is often the person whotends to think that they don't
deserve that relationship.
They tend to think that, youknow, they have a deficit that
makes it hard for them tosustain that kind of
relationship.
So that's the kind of flip sideof it is they are not great at
developing relationships in asuper organic or natural way,
(19:17):
because their relationships whenthey were children weren't
developed in a super organic andnatural way.
Christine (19:23):
The biggest difference between the
dismissive and the fearful isthat the fearful folk actually
want a relationship.
They just don't know how to getfrom point A to point B because
they haven't had that modeledand it's part of their
upbringing.
Shannon (19:35):
Yeah right, I mean that's.
It's trust issues.
It's like a huge, huge trustissue, complex.
That makes a lot of sense,given the upbringing, and I
think it's fair to say it's theone that has kind of the least
research around it, because it'sthe smallest percentage.
It's only 5% of people fallinto that category according to,
like, the modern studies on it,but it does seem like it does
(19:57):
seem like the relationshipbetween childhood and adulthood,
with that style in particular,makes a lot of sense.
Well, there is work that needsto be worked through.
Christine (20:07):
I wonder, shannon to, if those numbers are a little
low when you think of theresearch that is out there that
describes that.
Your full avoidance stylethey're really looking at people
who have internal conflictsounds to me like more than 5%.
The overly dramatic in thecontext of relationships seems
like might be more than 5% andunpredictable in relationships.
(20:30):
So you know, those numbers Ithink are you know, these are
all just like general estimatesanyway, but it's important I
think, and part of the reasonwe're talking about this on the
podcast, is to be aware thatthese attachment styles are
actually valid, research basedways that people approach
(20:51):
relationships which are notnecessarily completely like
quote unquote their fault.
They're the result of certainpatterns.
Because they're result ofpatterns, that means these
patterns can be changed if youwant to change them.
Shannon (21:09):
Yeah, I mean in the last example, love bombing is
something that's reallyassociated with the fearful
attachment style, which makessense because it's I think we've
talked about it on the showbefore but it's that whole
slingshot theory where if youpull too far in one direction it
goes all the way in the other.
So you're afraid, so you pullback in one direction, then
you'll launch it and you lovebomb.
But the thing about that islike OK, if you're having
(21:32):
disorganized attachment styleand you love bomb, ok, love
bombing was wrong, but there areparts of that that are still
progress.
There are parts of yourwillingness to develop a
relationship like you don't wantto love bomb, obviously, but to
your point, within every styleof attachment there are ways to
work through that attachment,especially by acknowledging the
sources.
Now, by the same token, youcan't just blame your parents if
(21:56):
you end up having an attachmentstyle.
That's not great in adultrelationships, because you do
have the ability to work throughthose things if you identify
the problem.
Christine (22:03):
That's critical, shannon, because I do think
there are a lot.
I see a lot of stuff on variousFacebook groups that I'm a part
of that are just like, well,I'm anxious attachment, that's
what I am, and it's like, well,no, you can understand that
you're starting from that point.
But research does show thatrelationships impact the next
relationship.
(22:23):
You can tell a partner, hey,I've come from an anxious
attachment style that I'm reallyworried.
Can you text me more often?
Can you give me words ofaffirmation in the words of love
languages?
Can you do these things to helpme along and to meet somewhere
in the middle, and hopefullythere's an opportunity to grow
(22:47):
into a more secure attachmentstyle.
But it does just like we talkabout all the time on the show.
A lot of it has to do with withone, self-awareness and two,
being willing to communicatethat to a partner.
And three, a partner who iswilling to be receptive to it.
You know who's willing to putin the work to kind of meet in
the middle at some point.
(23:07):
Obviously a lot easier ifyou're working with one of the
partners that has a secureattachment style.
A little bit more complicatedwhen you're dealing with two of
the other.
You know one of the otherstyles.
Shannon (23:19):
Yeah, I saw an interesting post today and it's
funny because I saw this postafter we had already, you know,
decided to do this episode andit was actually about five steps
for building a securerelationship, and it was from
Queer Sex Therapy, which isanother.
I think they have a podcast,but they also have an Instagram
(23:41):
and whatever.
And one thing that I foundreally fascinating was it said
that one of the best ways tobuild a secure relationship is
to not get trapped in newrelationship energy in NRE,
which we've talked about on theshow before.
But it says new relationshipenergy offers the guise of
security, which can make it thatmuch more distressing when we
start to feel anxious as hell afew months in because you
(24:02):
basically tricked yourself intothinking everything was great
and then it's like well, thetruth is, after a few months,
your attachment style is goingto come out, whether it's the
best relationship or the worstrelationship or whatever.
So some of the pieces of advicethat they gave were one be a
little bit inconvenient.
When you have NRE, you kind ofcan find yourself being super
adaptable and flexible.
(24:22):
So you break your ownboundaries because you're
excited, but hold yourboundaries and even though it
might be like you want to spendall that time with someone.
It's going to be more securefor you in the long run if you
adapt to your usual boundariesand your usual thresholds versus
being hyper flexible andbuilding that as the expectation
for your relationship.
That's excellent advice.
Christine (24:41):
Actually, we do tend to make a lot of space for a new
relationship and along thoselines, before you go on to the
other recommendations, I want topoint out there's a very I
think it's actually abestselling book in the
polyamorous world ConsensualNominongamine World called
Polysecure by Jessica Fern, andthat's actually what she talks
(25:06):
about is you have to maintainyour existing relationship even
when NRE happens, and it'sinteresting that you have this
blog post here that's kind ofsaying the same things in the
context of kind of a monogamousrelationship, like maintain your
relationships with your friends, maintain your relationship
with your family, maintain yourrelationship with yourself.
(25:28):
Don't put everything else asidefor the new relationship.
Shannon (25:32):
No, exactly, and you hit it on the head because the
first one was being convenientDon't just spend over backwards
for your partner, and that waskind of the first one.
But the next one is schedulealone time.
Make sure you're still spendingtime with yourself so that you
don't lose yourself.
Yeah, keep your friendsinvolved.
Don't knock your friends out ofthe picture.
One of the things that'sinteresting about that even just
the last couple of things thatI just listed off is when we
think about stereotypically kindof what an unhealthy or an
(25:55):
abusive relationship is, a lotof times the things associated
with that are they isolate youfrom your friends, they isolate
you from yourself.
So, okay, on the opposite sideof that, don't relinquish those
parts of you.
Stay in touch with those partsof you.
And then, well, one thing kindof on the flip side of that
which I thought was lovely isyou're maintaining your
boundaries.
Don't be hyper flexible.
(26:16):
Be a little inconvenient.
Make sure you're still loopingin your friends, you keep those
circles going, but build ritualswith your new partner.
If that ritual is you go to themovies once a week, or you make
dinner once a week, or whateverit is, you can't do that, or
you make dinner once a week orwhatever it is, or you grab a
drink once a week, whatever itis, that makes sense for you, if
you establish a ritual thatgives you security, even when
there are things that you arenot secure about.
So, and then the last one,that's very smart advice, very
(26:38):
smart advice.
Well, and what I liked aboutthis post and again it's queer
sex therapy but what I likedabout this post is that the last
tip was to know what you don'tknow, like stay humble, and
you're not going to knoweverything about your partner.
There's going to be things thatcome up, there's going to be
surprises.
Same thing goes for you.
It goes both ways.
But if you maintain your senseof self and your independence a
little bit and you have yourboundaries and you stay true to
(26:59):
your thresholds, but you alsoestablish new rituals and new
scheduled things with yourpartner, then in a perfect world
, ideally, even as you get hitwith the things that you don't
know, there will be enough thatyou do know that you can still
feel secure.
Christine (27:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's really great advice and I would
like underline that advice evenmore that if you are a person
who is fortunate enough torecognize in yourself that you
actually have a secureattachment style, be sure to
give grace to a potentialpartner that might not be coming
from that background.
And as you learn more and moreabout a new person, you tend to
(27:33):
learn more about their familyand their upbringing and what
types of past experiencesthey've had with other
relationships.
And, as I've said, it's notjust childhood, it's past
relationships that inform thenext one.
And it's up to you in some ways, to you know, if you are a bit
more secure, to kind of helpthat other person along and
recognize it and maybe even askthe questions that need to be
(27:56):
asked, especially if you thinkthat you know your potential
partner might be one of theavoidant, dismissive ones.
I think you might want to findthat out kind of early on,
before you realign your entireschedule to accommodate this
person who might not actuallywant to be into that type of
relationship anyway, you know,yeah, so there's a lot of this
(28:19):
is about awareness and likecommunication, like you said.
Shannon (28:24):
Yeah, no, it's interesting and it's funny.
You know, looking at thedifferent studies, depending on
what study you look at,somewhere between 55 and 70% of
participants say that theirattachment style is still what
it was when they were a child,and then like 30-ish percent say
that it's changed.
But just because you identifywith a certain attachment style
does not mean that you cannotmove beyond that attachment
(28:46):
style or learn to be flexiblewithin your attachment style or,
as you were pointing out, justkind of like making the changes
and the upgrades basically youneed to make to maintain a
healthy relationship and wetalked about this before the
episode.
But it's similar to like a lovelanguage you might have a
certain language but you can beflexible with that and you can
be flexible with which languageyou speak to your partner and
(29:07):
they can be flexible with thelanguage they speak back.
Christine (29:10):
You know, and I think another thing to point out to
everybody is you know we all dowant healthy, secure
relationships and I think forthose people who are in anxious,
preoccupied and avoidant andfearful in particular, part of
this is cultivating that youdeserve that secure relationship
(29:30):
, totally Believing that you canget there and believing that
those relationships are possiblefor you.
Because I think what troublesme when I see so many people
posting about I'm anxious, I'mavoidant, like they think that
that is who they are and that'swhat they're stuck with, and
part of that is then believingthat maybe you're not entitled
(29:51):
to a beautiful, healthy, securerelationship and we're all
entitled to that and we're allentitled to have that feeling of
security and trust and intimacyin our relationships.
Shannon (30:04):
Yeah, I mean it wouldn't be a sex-debunked
episode if we didn't mentionfood or sports.
So I'm going to go with food onthis one.
You know, you can know, thatyou are sensitive to dairy, but
that doesn't mean you don't getto pop a lactate and enjoy some
cheese every once in a while.
You can be aware, without beingdoomed, that's true.
Christine (30:23):
You can be aware of it and you can make
accommodations in relationships.
That just because you're alactate intolerant doesn't mean
you don't get to eat.
You can still have beautiful,you can still eat, right.
That's what milk is for, that'sright.
I love, actually, that actuallyworks.
That you can still have agourmet, you know, beautifully
(30:43):
cultivated meal, even though youhave this one thing that might
impact the fact that you can'thave cheese, which is, of course
, very, very simple, which is,of course, a tragedy, so sorry.
Shannon (30:56):
Now, while we're on the subject of things that are
funny, I did want to mention twoadditional studies that I
stumbled across in my researchfor this episode that just kind
of made me laugh.
One of them is that there isalso a relationship between
attachment styles and peoplebeing attached to their pets.
Yeah, yeah.
So, to no surprise, the anxiousattached pet owners exhibit a
(31:22):
heightened need for proximityand concern about losing their
pets, while avoidantly attachedowners seek independence and
fear the loss of personalautonomy for things like having
to get home to take care oftheir dog.
So I didn't go this deep intothe research, but I'm going to
go out on a limb here and saythat dogs are probably the
better pet fit for the anxiousattached and avoid attached and
(31:46):
cats would be avoided.
Christine (31:48):
Avoidant attached.
Shannon (31:49):
Yeah, and I guess if you're really self, I guess if
you're really secure, you canjust have something like a
turtle that is there when youneed it and is it going to make
you feel?
Christine (31:58):
better.
So, as you know, we have twocats and a dog.
What does that say about ourattack?
Maybe?
Shannon (32:03):
you're secure.
Maybe it evens out.
We'll have to look into moreresearch on that and let you
know, but I did find that veryfunny and then, kind of tying
into that initial research thatwe talked about about Gen Z and
whatever, there is a study thatcame out recently about
attachment styles influencingthe tendency to form emotional
bonds with smartphones, whichindividuals with anxious
(32:25):
attachment styles tend to formstronger emotional bonds with
their smartphones.
They're also more likely to usesocial media.
Interestingly, though, secureattachment folks also use social
media a lot, and that's because, to them, it's an extension of
their secure interpersonalidentity.
Christine (32:41):
They use it differently.
They use it very differently,right.
Shannon (32:44):
They use it in different ways.
But I did think it wasinteresting, if not mildly
disturbing, that there is enoughresearch to have a study with
actual support for therelationship between your phone
and your attachment style.
But then again, not surprisingat all, because we have a lot of
research about things like cellphone brain drain and the way
that your cognitive energy isdrained by your attention to
your cell phone.
(33:04):
I make myself feel better aboutit by thinking my phone's just
my friend.
Christine (33:09):
Well, let's see along those lines.
However, last week we talked alittle bit about the new
research from the sexualityconference I went to.
There was actually someresearch presented about
attachments with models who dovideo camming and actually
talking about the feelings of ina positive way, as a little
(33:32):
step forward for people who haveavoidant dismissive styles or
avoidant fearful styles to startdeveloping relationships.
As we talk about these articlesthat say Gen Z is insecure
because they don't have therelationship skills, there's
actually a little bit ofdeveloping research saying that
(33:52):
interactions with webcam modelsand stuff is actually, weirdly,
a step in the right directionbecause they're actually
interacting with live humans.
Shannon (34:03):
That reminds me of the movie her, her, the movie her
with Maquin Phoenix and kind ofI mean Walk in Phoenix yeah,
he's just walking right along.
But similar like yeah, she's avoice on a phone, but she
teaches him a lot more aboutrelationships and feeling heard.
Ultimately, the attachmentdoesn't work out super great.
(34:23):
Spoiler alert.
But there is something to besaid for even temporary secure
relationships, still helping youmake your way towards a secure
relationship.
Christine (34:32):
Yeah, and these webcam models actually, you know
, the better ones, the ones whohave a more successful career,
actually cultivate how tocommunicate and develop a
connection with people.
That the research suggests isnot entirely fate, that it
actually is grounded in a needto create a connection.
(34:52):
Whether it's the deep level ofintimate connection that the
viewers think they're getting,that's questionable.
But there actually is amotivation to create connection,
because creating connectionwith clients brings the clients
back and brings them back in andwatching, but not in a
necessarily negative ornefarious way, something that
(35:13):
the research is suggesting couldpotentially be a positive thing
.
Shannon (35:18):
So, yeah, Well, this one this reference goes out to
my millennial listeners outthere but ever since, you know,
napoleon Dynamite and Kip and LaFonda met online and
established a beautifulrelationship and things got
pretty serious.
I've always believed in thepower of building a secure
attachment through the internet.
Christine (35:37):
Well, you know, media literacy, it's a thing, it's
important.
Shannon (35:41):
It's important.
So that is it for the episodeon attachment styles.
You know we're going into theholidays.
You're going to be around yourfamily.
You're going to be around thepeople that maybe I don't know
did this to you.
That's kidding.
Give them some grace, but alsogive them some grace.
We know it all is joking aside.
I mean, the holidays can be areally tough time for a lot of
folks, especially our LGBTQcommunity.
(36:03):
So give yourself some grace,give yourself some patience and
lean on the secure networks youdo have in your life and that'll
all help you towards buildingsecure attachment.
Christine (36:14):
Very well framed.
Shannon, Lean on your securepeople.
So I guess we need to say thatthat's another myth Night night,
sleep well.
Shannon (36:27):
Attachment style Actually, that reminds me.
My attachment style isdefinitely that I still have my
baby blanket on my bed, which Ithink is normal, because I know
at least four people that dothat.
I still have T yeah, see, thereyou go.
I got butter.
Christine (36:39):
We're all, we're good , we're good, yeah, he still has
Teddy.
So we're all there.
So we're there, yeah.
Shannon (36:47):
So thanks for joining us this week with another study
session.
We are wishing you a happy,healthy holiday season with the
people who make you feel themost secure and most loved.
If you've got any other mythsyou'd like us to debunk or
topics you'd like us to cover,you know where to find us at Sex
Ed Debunked on all the socials,or shoot us an email at
sexeddebunkedcom.
Christine (37:04):
Take care everyone.
Happy holidays.
I know Thanks for tuning in forthis week's episode of Sex Ed
Debunked During the course ofour podcast.
We have limited time together,which means that, unfortunately,
many identities, groups andmovements may not be represented
(37:25):
each week.
The field of sexuality andgender orientations, identities
and behaviors are changing andgrowing rapidly, and we remain
committed to being as inclusiveas possible.
Shannon (37:35):
Please remember that all of us, including us, are
learning in this area and mayoccasionally slip up.
We ask that we all continue tobe kind to one another so that
we can create a truly inclusiveand accepting environment.
As always, if you have anyquestions or comments, please
feel free to reach out to us atSex Ed Debunked on Instagram,
facebook and Twitter.
Christine (37:55):
Sex Ed Debunked is produced by Trailblaze Media in
Providence, Rhode Island.
Our sound producer is EzraWinters, with production
assistance from Shea Winter.
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