November 15, 2023 • 24 mins
Ever wondered how the medieval Church navigated gender diversity within its fold? Prepare yourself for an enlightening journey through the less-trodden paths of Church history, featuring tales of transgender saints and the societal repercussions of modern anti-trans legislation.
In this exceptional episode, we are privileged to host Professor Maeve Doyle, a seasoned scholar with profound insights into the medieval history of gender. Together, we uncover compelling stories of women who donned the masculinity cloak to join the Church, and saints depicted with intentional gender fluidity in religious artwork. From the intriguing story of St. Eugenia, celebrated on Christmas day, to the gender-fluid portrayal of Saint Athanasia and Christ's transcendence of the gender binary, we challenge and broaden your understanding of gender in the Church. As we delve into these historical narratives, we also emphasize the contemporary, highlighting recent research on the detrimental mental health effects of anti-trans laws and the crucial role of activism in safeguarding transgender youth. Join us, as we weave together past and present, history and activism, community and individual identity in this enlightening exploration of gender diversity in the Church.
Follow us on social @sexeddebunked or send us a message at sexeddebunked@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is Study Sessions brought to you by Sex
Ed, debunked In these mini-sodes.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
we'll discuss a myth suggested to us by listeners.
Like you, like what?
Speaker 1 (00:11):
you hear, want to hear more?
Follow us on Instagram,facebook and Twitter at Sex Ed
Debunked to suggest new myths.
Provide your own show notes andgive us ideas for what to talk
about next.
Now take some notes.
The study group is in session.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hi, this is Study Sessions, a bi-weekly Minnesota
by Sex Ed Debunked, where wetalk about topics brought to us
by you, our listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
On this week's study session and in light of the
Transgender Awareness Week,which goes from November 13th
through 19th, and also the TransDay of Remembrance coming up on
November 20th, we're going totalk about a really interesting
topic related to transgenderfolks, which is the topic of
transgender saints in thehistory of that.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
But first, because we know what's going on in this
country right now with all ofthe anti-trans and anti-gender
affirming legislation.
I did want to talk a bit aboutthe recent research around this
legislation, particularly in thearea of psychology.
The Monitor on Psychology,which is a magazine that reports
(01:17):
on recent research, reported onresearch in 2023 that is
suggesting that the veryexistence of these laws, even if
it's not in your state, isseriously impacting the health
and well-being of transgenderyouth and gender diverse youth.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
And that comes down to a lot of what we've talked
about on the show before, whichis anticipated Sigma and
minority effect, and anxiety isthe idea that, even if something
isn't affecting you directly,it is in fact affecting you if
you are a part of a minoritygroup.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, and this research actually goes a step
further, shannon.
What it's actually saying isthat the fact that these varied
discussions are even being hadso even if it's not a discussion
happening in your community orin your state, the fact that
across this country people aretalking about legislation that
is banning gender-affirming carefor youth and for trans youth
(02:19):
just the fact that discussionsare being had in the country is
having a detrimental impact.
But I do want to point out onething that the research is
showing is a protective factor,and that protective factor goes
around activism and speaking up.
That includes not just thetransgender youth, but the fact
(02:40):
that parents and caregivers andloved ones and siblings and
friends are speaking up in favorof transgender youth and gender
non-conforming folk.
So for the listeners of thepodcast who are frustrated and
just like we are frustrated bywhat's going on in this country
and the terrible negativelegislation that is trying to
(03:03):
strike down gender-affirmingcare, the best way thing you can
do to help the people that youlove is to show them that you
support them and to show themwith activism by saying hey, I
just wrote to my representativeor, when those conversations are
being had about thislegislation, to really actively
(03:24):
say no, because the research isshowing that activism and
speaking up is actually becoming, is actually a way to help
guard against some of thenegative mental health effects.
So, in other words, just likewe've talked to before, shannon,
you know you create a community.
Community can help thesetransgender kids.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Well, exactly and that's that is exactly what I
was going to say is that,unfortunately, you know, all of
this negative legislation andjust propaganda, basically is
being spread around.
But one of the positive effects, if you want to look at that,
is it is rallying peopletogether to stand up for our
trans brothers, sisters and ourwhole trans community.
(04:05):
And that doesn't necessarilymean that it is a positive,
because we'd love for us to justbe able to live freely as we
are.
But if you do need a way tolook for the silver linings in
what is otherwise a terrible,terrible political situation
right now, it is the fact thatcommunities are coming together
in support and protection forour trans friends.
(04:30):
Yep, and so so kind of to getoff that note, which is, of
course, let's take it back andnot talk about what's going on
currently at all, because hey,what a nightmare, but instead
what we're going to talk aboutand again thinking about the
Transgender Day of Remembrance.
We are going to talk about someinteresting history about trans
and gender diversity in thechurch going way way back In the
(04:53):
church.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Exclamation point.
Exclamation point.
Exclamation point.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, in the church, cause for dramatic effect In the
church and then also going backto some like medieval history.
So huge shout out to ProfessorMaeve Doyle, who my mom,
christian, met during a writingseminar at Wesleyan.
But Maeve introduced this ideaof the medieval history of
gender and how fascinating it is.
(05:16):
So we're going to jump intothat and give you a really
interesting trans history lessonin this study session.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
With a caveat that this is just dipping our toes
into it, but, as some of ourlisteners know, I've gone
through, you know, 12 years ofCatholic school plus college, of
Catholic college, and I neverheard about trans saints or even
the idea of gender fluid saintsin the church and that just
kind of like blew my mind.
So, first of all, like whatProfessor Doyle researches is
(05:48):
art, history and sculpture.
And if you go through thesculpture, certain areas of the
world, particularly theByzantine Empire, there are
actually sculptures and artworkand on cathedrals themselves
portraying saints that arearguably gender fluid, meaning
(06:13):
that you cannot that part oftheir dress.
If you deconstruct how theartist has rendered the saint,
if you deconstruct it, part oftheir dress would be a
traditionally male dress andsome of it would be
traditionally female and theartists, arguably, are very
intentional in depicting thesesaints as really kind of gender
(06:36):
fluid.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
If you will.
Yeah, it's so interesting andwe know that you know, going
back to Shakespeare, whichobviously is not that far back,
but we know that there is anestablished history of men
passing as women, so it's notshocking that this might have
come from somewhere.
But there is even more when yougo even deeper into it, beyond
(06:58):
that right.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Well, the history behind it, interestingly, is
actually the other way.
It's actually women passing asmen, Right, and there was kind
of a recognition, certainly inthose medieval times,
pre-medieval times even, thatyou know, if you want to do
anything important, you had tobe male Sure.
(07:20):
So young women born cis-female.
If they wanted to be a monk, ifthey wanted to be a priest, if
they wanted to preach the wordof Christ, they had to dress in
the garb of a man.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, for those of us who were raised on the
problematic Disney adaptation ofMulan know very well that you
have to pass as male.
But what's interesting aboutthis particular history lesson
is it was women passing as maleand we could call that trans, we
can call that gender-bending,whatever you want to call it,
but passing as male to fit intothe church, which arguably this
(08:01):
day and age is the entity thatis most responsible for a lot of
trans discrimination.
And yet a lot of this transpassing and gender passing was
in service of the church.
To want to be a member of thechurch.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It's fascinating, isn't it?
And fascinating that a numberof these gender-bending folk
actually became saints in theCatholic Church.
So you know, in the CatholicChurch the process of becoming a
saint is a pretty big one andyou know, you have to prove that
you've had so many miracles andthis, that and the other thing.
(08:35):
So the fact that these saintsare recognized is another kind
of interesting little twist towhat we think of as Christianity
, right.
So I thought it was interesting.
So I was looking back to acouple of the saints that were
mentioned in some of the earlierwritings, and one story that
(08:59):
came out was this story about aRoman martyr named Eugenia.
And when you look at thesculpture I looked at the
picture of the sculpture whichis on a cathedral in Spain, and
the story of Eugenia is a borncisgender female, one of the
ones who you know wanted toportray as a male monk so she
(09:23):
could join the monastery.
And the story was that while amonk, a rich society person,
made advances upon Eugenia, themonk, and when those advances
were rebuffed, of course accusedthe monk of sexual assault.
(09:45):
Sure, so, in order to defend,had to actually tear open the
monks garbs to reveal, in fact,a female and the actual
depiction of the sculpture onthis part of the cathedral
actually shows the tearing openof the vestments, interesting To
(10:08):
not reveal the breast, but itwas definitely revealing the act
of opening.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Well, Ray, and oh yes , of course, I'll let you finish
, but what's interesting aboutthat being depicted in art is
that it is such an importantpart of the story and that is
how stories were told prior to areally high literacy rate was.
We have to show everythingthrough art and this was such an
important part of the story toshow that transition and that
reveal in the art.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Well, and here's the real curiosity, Shannon, when I
looked it up and I was lookingonline for this scene under the
Catholic online, it basicallysays this whole story is made up
, that there was a martyr, butthe rest of the story is a
romantic fictitious legend.
By the way, her feast day isDecember 25th.
(10:57):
But when I dug into the historyof the medieval artifacts from
the art history side of it showsthat there's a small village in
the north of Portugal with thename of St Eugenia that contains
a church with a painting of StEugenia dressed as a boy.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
So you're a racial be damned.
It happened.
A racial be damned.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Well, and you know like you can say something
online, like the Catholic onlinecan say something, but it's
actually there.
It's actually there, in thecountry of Portugal, that this
is how this saint was depicted.
So I think it's fascinating howthe artwork is a history, is a
(11:46):
carved history that cannot bedenied, no matter how you try to
write your way around it.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Well, and that leads into another interesting point,
because of course we have allthis artwork and we have all of
these religious pieces of artwhere we can see this very
interesting gender-bendyartistic representation, but it
also started to be proliferatedin text.
So from the fifth to the ninthcentury there was a lot of
(12:13):
detailing about saints,especially like Greek and
Mediterranean saints, and in thetexts these figures are
addressed by medieval authorsusing both male and female
pronouns interchangeably.
So you know, it's not just theart where you're left to
interpretation, but in fact inthe texts as well, they are
(12:33):
using male and female pronounsbecause that is what was
appropriate to them.
This is essentially non-binarywriting of male, sometimes
female, other times.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Well, which kind of goes that?
The striking part of thishistory, shannon, is.
It goes against what everyonekeeps like saying, what you hear
in the media now, like oh, thisis all something new.
Well, no, this is in the fifthcentury, the ninth century, the
medieval times, that there was arecognition of that.
There was no such thing as agender binary.
(13:05):
That gender was fluid.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
It was an acknowledgement that it was
fluid in saints.
Yeah, and in fact, some of theresearch that we read and we
relied really heavily onresearch for this episode
because we wanted to reallyunderstand it but a lot of the
research said, in fact, usinggender pronouns interchangeably
was pretty common at this pointand the misgendering is the
modern approach.
Misgendering and deciding thatit has to be one or the other is
(13:29):
actually the much more modernadaptation of these stories.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, and there was another saint that came across
from the Byzantine era calledSaint Athanasia, and this was
yet another saint born into ahigh social class, born as a
woman, actually married to a man, but when their children died,
(13:54):
they both took monastic vows andshe decided to present as a man
in order to get accepted intothe monastery, and it was
something that apparently I meanapparently it worked out,
because now she's ordained as asaint.
So clearly, like the issue theissue of being trans or changing
(14:16):
your gender expression was notan impediment to becoming a
saint, which anybody who'sbrought up in the Catholic
Church it's like.
Which is kind of how I was atthe Church center.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
And I do want to say, and just to caveat this like
you know, one of the mostproblematic standpoints of TERF
people is the idea that you'rechanging genders to have gender
privilege.
That is not, in any way, shapeor form, what we were referring
to in this episode and whenresearching this topic.
(14:51):
It's actually just the ideathat gender fluidity has existed
for a very, very, very, very,very long time.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
And it not only existed, but was acknowledged
and acknowledged, and some ofthese gender fluid folks are now
saints.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Well, and that is because the gender that they
identified with was so authenticthat it was not something that
was exposed.
It was simply who they were,because gender is fluid and who
you are is who you are, and youcan become a saint because of
who you are and not because ofthe genitalia you were assigned
at birth.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So so it turns out that themedieval folk might have been,
you know, much more tolerantthan we give them credit for and
much more accepting andinclusive than we might give
them credit for.
And you had a story too hereabout Alexander's great love.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
So, yeah, a couple of things and these are just a
couple of, you know, points thatI stumbled across in my
research, but first of all onethat's probably going to upset a
lot of people, but there issome in religious texts.
There is some some what's theword, I guess evidence or
support, and of course religioustexts are one of the more
(16:08):
interesting sort of tangenttangential things was the idea
that Christ himself was able toprovide sort of life force in a
way that a traditional femaleperson might, an additional
female body might, and so thereis a text that says that Christ
(16:29):
said drink daughter from my side, and this is part of medieval
Christian mysticism.
But he said drink daughter frommy side.
And being able to provide thatsort of life force is inherently
feminine in in the grand schemeof religious texts.
And this was really interestingbecause the research said you
know this, this quote, this idea, this story grants quote,
(16:52):
feminine bodily attributes toChrist, destabilizing
assumptions about his gender inmystical images and texts.
In fact, christ's capacity totranscend the gender binary,
like his ability to transcendthe binary of life and death,
underscores his divinity.
So almost the idea that Christexists outside of binaries and
(17:14):
outside dualities is why he isChrist in the first place.
Is that Christ does not Christ.
They do not exist in binariesor dualities and that's just
well.
I thought that was just such aninteresting point of view to
read about.
Is that Christ?
Christ is constantly divided,it def what's the word?
Destroying the binary Rightexactly is constantly going
(17:37):
beyond a binary.
It's constantly going beyondwhat is true and false.
I mean, so many of Christ'smiracles are going against what
we believe to be true, and so Ithought right, really, really
fascinating.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
It is, and you think about the stories of the life of
Christ, and he is constantlytrying to break down the norms.
Actually, when Christ allowedthe leper to come to him, when
Christ allowed the prostitute towash his feet, All of that was
about breaking down the socialnorms even of that time.
(18:11):
So it's not surprising to havea mystical writer here talk
about breaking other binariesand other norms as well, which
is pretty fascinating yeah it'sreally fascinating.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
We've talked about that too and obviously we've
done episodes where we've talkedabout religion and we've talked
about faith and we've talkedabout how Jesus was intended in
a lot of these texts to be kindof the ultimate rebel, right
Like breaking tradition andgoing outside.
Rightly erratical, Certainlyerratical, exactly.
But then the other story thatyou alluded to which I just
found interesting was Alexanderthe Great's most recorded lover
(18:48):
was a eunuch named Bogos, butthen in most of the many of the
writings after the historicaltext was translated into Bogo,
which is just a female character.
But most of this was just kindof, you know, done to normalize
or stabilize the gender binary.
But the truth is that, likethis lover of Alexander the
(19:09):
Great, that really was his mostrecorded lover, was in fact
transcending the gender binary.
And you know this was justaffirming the possibility of
there being something beyond thebinary, that this great warrior
, with these recorded storiesand again we've talked about it
Warriors were always sleepingwith people of all different
geniors.
They were just trying to get itwhere they could get it.
But this was the most profoundrelationship recorded Alexander
(19:33):
the Great's life and it doesbring up the question of the
number of times throughouthistory that we've heard of a
eunuch character, and was thateunuch a quote unquote eunuch,
or were they in fact atransgender person that they
were struggling to find aidentifier or a title for a
label for?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, and that's a fascinating point of view, and I
am certain that they are transresearchers out there looking at
that very issue as we speak.
And if you are a transresearcher, and you are
listening to this.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
We've reached out to us because we need to know more.
We have asked a lot ofquestions.
More, more, more.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yes, exactly, but so we hope you enjoyed this very
cursory dive into medieval artand sculpture in the Catholic
Church and elsewhere.
But it does evidence quiteclearly that being transgender
diverse and gender non-binary isnot a recent phenomenon, as
some have argued Right.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And we know that science is on the side of
transgender and gender diversefolk and I hope this episode
helps our listeners know thathistory is also on the side of
gender and gender folk.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
That's right.
Well said Shannon.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
History and science, and so do we have some good news
?
Yeah, do we have some good news?
We have a little bit of goodnews.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
We have a little.
I want to highlight a littlebit of good news from the sex
education front in two areas.
First of all, we do have agroup that's trying to develop
national sex education standardsand those standards which is
really cool is actually.
One of the highlights of thatis gender identity and
expression, and so we do havethat right there wants school
(21:13):
districts to start teachingabout gender identity and
expression and in the context ofgender roles and social norms
around gender roles, starting Kto 2.
Which is awesome.
The second piece of legislationthat actually I want, I hope
abroad Swath of you are aware of, because this has actually been
(21:36):
introduced in 2023 in ourfederal Congress and it's called
the Real Education and Accessfor Healthy Youth Act of 2023.
And the purpose behind that actis to one uphold the rights of
young people to make decisionsabout their bodies and health
(21:57):
and sexuality, which obviouslyis quite important, but also
looks to preserve the right togender affirming care, and right
now this bill is beingsponsored by I believe 33
senators and I think 50something members of the House
(22:20):
of Representatives.
So for you listeners out therewill post it on as a resource on
the sex had debunked page, butit's called the Real Education
and Access for Healthy Youth Actand if you call your
legislature or your staterepresentative, you can tell
them that this act is importantto you and gender affirming care
(22:41):
for youth is important to you.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Absolutely so.
Again, this is the TransAwareness Week and we are coming
up on the Trans Day ofRemembrance.
So, to our trans community, weare here for you and we have
about 20,000 listeners who alsoare here for you, and we will
continue to educate as much aswe can.
(23:05):
We are here and we'll have openears if there is anything else
we should be talking about, butwe are here for you and we fully
believe in the right to everysingle person to be exactly who
they are and express exactly whothey are, and we really hope
our listeners feel the same andthat more people will continue
to rally and show their supportin that way.
(23:26):
So that is another episode ofSex Ed Debunked.
That is our study session.
We'll be back next week with afull episode and, as usual, if
you have any questions, topics,comments, concerns, weird quotes
, funny sex stories, whateveryou've got that you want to
share with us, we are atsexeddebunkedcom and all socials
at sexeddebunked.
(23:46):
Thanks everyone for listeningand have a great week.
Bye now.
This is Study Sessions brought to you by Sex
Ed, debunked In these mini-sodes.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
we'll discuss a myth suggested to us by listeners.
Like you, like what?
Speaker 1 (00:11):
you hear, want to hear more?
Follow us on Instagram,facebook and Twitter at Sex Ed
Debunked to suggest new myths.
Provide your own show notes andgive us ideas for what to talk
about next.
Now take some notes.
The study group is in session.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Hi, this is Study Sessions, a bi-weekly Minnesota
by Sex Ed Debunked, where wetalk about topics brought to us
by you, our listeners.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
On this week's study session and in light of the
Transgender Awareness Week,which goes from November 13th
through 19th, and also the TransDay of Remembrance coming up on
November 20th, we're going totalk about a really interesting
topic related to transgenderfolks, which is the topic of
transgender saints in thehistory of that.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
But first, because we know what's going on in this
country right now with all ofthe anti-trans and anti-gender
affirming legislation.
I did want to talk a bit aboutthe recent research around this
legislation, particularly in thearea of psychology.
The Monitor on Psychology,which is a magazine that reports
(01:17):
on recent research, reported onresearch in 2023 that is
suggesting that the veryexistence of these laws, even if
it's not in your state, isseriously impacting the health
and well-being of transgenderyouth and gender diverse youth.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
And that comes down to a lot of what we've talked
about on the show before, whichis anticipated Sigma and
minority effect, and anxiety isthe idea that, even if something
isn't affecting you directly,it is in fact affecting you if
you are a part of a minoritygroup.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, and this research actually goes a step
further, shannon.
What it's actually saying isthat the fact that these varied
discussions are even being hadso even if it's not a discussion
happening in your community orin your state, the fact that
across this country people aretalking about legislation that
is banning gender-affirming carefor youth and for trans youth
(02:19):
just the fact that discussionsare being had in the country is
having a detrimental impact.
But I do want to point out onething that the research is
showing is a protective factor,and that protective factor goes
around activism and speaking up.
That includes not just thetransgender youth, but the fact
(02:40):
that parents and caregivers andloved ones and siblings and
friends are speaking up in favorof transgender youth and gender
non-conforming folk.
So for the listeners of thepodcast who are frustrated and
just like we are frustrated bywhat's going on in this country
and the terrible negativelegislation that is trying to
(03:03):
strike down gender-affirmingcare, the best way thing you can
do to help the people that youlove is to show them that you
support them and to show themwith activism by saying hey, I
just wrote to my representativeor, when those conversations are
being had about thislegislation, to really actively
(03:24):
say no, because the research isshowing that activism and
speaking up is actually becoming, is actually a way to help
guard against some of thenegative mental health effects.
So, in other words, just likewe've talked to before, shannon,
you know you create a community.
Community can help thesetransgender kids.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Well, exactly and that's that is exactly what I
was going to say is that,unfortunately, you know, all of
this negative legislation andjust propaganda, basically is
being spread around.
But one of the positive effects, if you want to look at that,
is it is rallying peopletogether to stand up for our
trans brothers, sisters and ourwhole trans community.
(04:05):
And that doesn't necessarilymean that it is a positive,
because we'd love for us to justbe able to live freely as we
are.
But if you do need a way tolook for the silver linings in
what is otherwise a terrible,terrible political situation
right now, it is the fact thatcommunities are coming together
in support and protection forour trans friends.
(04:30):
Yep, and so so kind of to getoff that note, which is, of
course, let's take it back andnot talk about what's going on
currently at all, because hey,what a nightmare, but instead
what we're going to talk aboutand again thinking about the
Transgender Day of Remembrance.
We are going to talk about someinteresting history about trans
and gender diversity in thechurch going way way back In the
(04:53):
church.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Exclamation point.
Exclamation point.
Exclamation point.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yeah, in the church, cause for dramatic effect In the
church and then also going backto some like medieval history.
So huge shout out to ProfessorMaeve Doyle, who my mom,
christian, met during a writingseminar at Wesleyan.
But Maeve introduced this ideaof the medieval history of
gender and how fascinating it is.
(05:16):
So we're going to jump intothat and give you a really
interesting trans history lessonin this study session.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
With a caveat that this is just dipping our toes
into it, but, as some of ourlisteners know, I've gone
through, you know, 12 years ofCatholic school plus college, of
Catholic college, and I neverheard about trans saints or even
the idea of gender fluid saintsin the church and that just
kind of like blew my mind.
So, first of all, like whatProfessor Doyle researches is
(05:48):
art, history and sculpture.
And if you go through thesculpture, certain areas of the
world, particularly theByzantine Empire, there are
actually sculptures and artworkand on cathedrals themselves
portraying saints that arearguably gender fluid, meaning
(06:13):
that you cannot that part oftheir dress.
If you deconstruct how theartist has rendered the saint,
if you deconstruct it, part oftheir dress would be a
traditionally male dress andsome of it would be
traditionally female and theartists, arguably, are very
intentional in depicting thesesaints as really kind of gender
(06:36):
fluid.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
If you will.
Yeah, it's so interesting andwe know that you know, going
back to Shakespeare, whichobviously is not that far back,
but we know that there is anestablished history of men
passing as women, so it's notshocking that this might have
come from somewhere.
But there is even more when yougo even deeper into it, beyond
(06:58):
that right.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Well, the history behind it, interestingly, is
actually the other way.
It's actually women passing asmen, Right, and there was kind
of a recognition, certainly inthose medieval times,
pre-medieval times even, thatyou know, if you want to do
anything important, you had tobe male Sure.
(07:20):
So young women born cis-female.
If they wanted to be a monk, ifthey wanted to be a priest, if
they wanted to preach the wordof Christ, they had to dress in
the garb of a man.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Well, for those of us who were raised on the
problematic Disney adaptation ofMulan know very well that you
have to pass as male.
But what's interesting aboutthis particular history lesson
is it was women passing as maleand we could call that trans, we
can call that gender-bending,whatever you want to call it,
but passing as male to fit intothe church, which arguably this
(08:01):
day and age is the entity thatis most responsible for a lot of
trans discrimination.
And yet a lot of this transpassing and gender passing was
in service of the church.
To want to be a member of thechurch.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
It's fascinating, isn't it?
And fascinating that a numberof these gender-bending folk
actually became saints in theCatholic Church.
So you know, in the CatholicChurch the process of becoming a
saint is a pretty big one andyou know, you have to prove that
you've had so many miracles andthis, that and the other thing.
(08:35):
So the fact that these saintsare recognized is another kind
of interesting little twist towhat we think of as Christianity
, right.
So I thought it was interesting.
So I was looking back to acouple of the saints that were
mentioned in some of the earlierwritings, and one story that
(08:59):
came out was this story about aRoman martyr named Eugenia.
And when you look at thesculpture I looked at the
picture of the sculpture whichis on a cathedral in Spain, and
the story of Eugenia is a borncisgender female, one of the
ones who you know wanted toportray as a male monk so she
(09:23):
could join the monastery.
And the story was that while amonk, a rich society person,
made advances upon Eugenia, themonk, and when those advances
were rebuffed, of course accusedthe monk of sexual assault.
(09:45):
Sure, so, in order to defend,had to actually tear open the
monks garbs to reveal, in fact,a female and the actual
depiction of the sculpture onthis part of the cathedral
actually shows the tearing openof the vestments, interesting To
(10:08):
not reveal the breast, but itwas definitely revealing the act
of opening.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Well, Ray, and oh yes , of course, I'll let you finish
, but what's interesting aboutthat being depicted in art is
that it is such an importantpart of the story and that is
how stories were told prior to areally high literacy rate was.
We have to show everythingthrough art and this was such an
important part of the story toshow that transition and that
reveal in the art.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Well, and here's the real curiosity, Shannon, when I
looked it up and I was lookingonline for this scene under the
Catholic online, it basicallysays this whole story is made up
, that there was a martyr, butthe rest of the story is a
romantic fictitious legend.
By the way, her feast day isDecember 25th.
(10:57):
But when I dug into the historyof the medieval artifacts from
the art history side of it showsthat there's a small village in
the north of Portugal with thename of St Eugenia that contains
a church with a painting of StEugenia dressed as a boy.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
So you're a racial be damned.
It happened.
A racial be damned.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Well, and you know like you can say something
online, like the Catholic onlinecan say something, but it's
actually there.
It's actually there, in thecountry of Portugal, that this
is how this saint was depicted.
So I think it's fascinating howthe artwork is a history, is a
(11:46):
carved history that cannot bedenied, no matter how you try to
write your way around it.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Well, and that leads into another interesting point,
because of course we have allthis artwork and we have all of
these religious pieces of artwhere we can see this very
interesting gender-bendyartistic representation, but it
also started to be proliferatedin text.
So from the fifth to the ninthcentury there was a lot of
(12:13):
detailing about saints,especially like Greek and
Mediterranean saints, and in thetexts these figures are
addressed by medieval authorsusing both male and female
pronouns interchangeably.
So you know, it's not just theart where you're left to
interpretation, but in fact inthe texts as well, they are
(12:33):
using male and female pronounsbecause that is what was
appropriate to them.
This is essentially non-binarywriting of male, sometimes
female, other times.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Well, which kind of goes that?
The striking part of thishistory, shannon, is.
It goes against what everyonekeeps like saying, what you hear
in the media now, like oh, thisis all something new.
Well, no, this is in the fifthcentury, the ninth century, the
medieval times, that there was arecognition of that.
There was no such thing as agender binary.
(13:05):
That gender was fluid.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
It was an acknowledgement that it was
fluid in saints.
Yeah, and in fact, some of theresearch that we read and we
relied really heavily onresearch for this episode
because we wanted to reallyunderstand it but a lot of the
research said, in fact, usinggender pronouns interchangeably
was pretty common at this pointand the misgendering is the
modern approach.
Misgendering and deciding thatit has to be one or the other is
(13:29):
actually the much more modernadaptation of these stories.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
Yeah, and there was another saint that came across
from the Byzantine era calledSaint Athanasia, and this was
yet another saint born into ahigh social class, born as a
woman, actually married to a man, but when their children died,
(13:54):
they both took monastic vows andshe decided to present as a man
in order to get accepted intothe monastery, and it was
something that apparently I meanapparently it worked out,
because now she's ordained as asaint.
So clearly, like the issue theissue of being trans or changing
(14:16):
your gender expression was notan impediment to becoming a
saint, which anybody who'sbrought up in the Catholic
Church it's like.
Which is kind of how I was atthe Church center.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
And I do want to say, and just to caveat this like
you know, one of the mostproblematic standpoints of TERF
people is the idea that you'rechanging genders to have gender
privilege.
That is not, in any way, shapeor form, what we were referring
to in this episode and whenresearching this topic.
(14:51):
It's actually just the ideathat gender fluidity has existed
for a very, very, very, very,very long time.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
And it not only existed, but was acknowledged
and acknowledged, and some ofthese gender fluid folks are now
saints.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Well, and that is because the gender that they
identified with was so authenticthat it was not something that
was exposed.
It was simply who they were,because gender is fluid and who
you are is who you are, and youcan become a saint because of
who you are and not because ofthe genitalia you were assigned
at birth.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Yeah, yeah.
So so it turns out that themedieval folk might have been,
you know, much more tolerantthan we give them credit for and
much more accepting andinclusive than we might give
them credit for.
And you had a story too hereabout Alexander's great love.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
So, yeah, a couple of things and these are just a
couple of, you know, points thatI stumbled across in my
research, but first of all onethat's probably going to upset a
lot of people, but there issome in religious texts.
There is some some what's theword, I guess evidence or
support, and of course religioustexts are one of the more
(16:08):
interesting sort of tangenttangential things was the idea
that Christ himself was able toprovide sort of life force in a
way that a traditional femaleperson might, an additional
female body might, and so thereis a text that says that Christ
(16:29):
said drink daughter from my side, and this is part of medieval
Christian mysticism.
But he said drink daughter frommy side.
And being able to provide thatsort of life force is inherently
feminine in in the grand schemeof religious texts.
And this was really interestingbecause the research said you
know this, this quote, this idea, this story grants quote,
(16:52):
feminine bodily attributes toChrist, destabilizing
assumptions about his gender inmystical images and texts.
In fact, christ's capacity totranscend the gender binary,
like his ability to transcendthe binary of life and death,
underscores his divinity.
So almost the idea that Christexists outside of binaries and
(17:14):
outside dualities is why he isChrist in the first place.
Is that Christ does not Christ.
They do not exist in binariesor dualities and that's just
well.
I thought that was just such aninteresting point of view to
read about.
Is that Christ?
Christ is constantly divided,it def what's the word?
Destroying the binary Rightexactly is constantly going
(17:37):
beyond a binary.
It's constantly going beyondwhat is true and false.
I mean, so many of Christ'smiracles are going against what
we believe to be true, and so Ithought right, really, really
fascinating.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
It is, and you think about the stories of the life of
Christ, and he is constantlytrying to break down the norms.
Actually, when Christ allowedthe leper to come to him, when
Christ allowed the prostitute towash his feet, All of that was
about breaking down the socialnorms even of that time.
(18:11):
So it's not surprising to havea mystical writer here talk
about breaking other binariesand other norms as well, which
is pretty fascinating yeah it'sreally fascinating.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
We've talked about that too and obviously we've
done episodes where we've talkedabout religion and we've talked
about faith and we've talkedabout how Jesus was intended in
a lot of these texts to be kindof the ultimate rebel, right
Like breaking tradition andgoing outside.
Rightly erratical, Certainlyerratical, exactly.
But then the other story thatyou alluded to which I just
found interesting was Alexanderthe Great's most recorded lover
(18:48):
was a eunuch named Bogos, butthen in most of the many of the
writings after the historicaltext was translated into Bogo,
which is just a female character.
But most of this was just kindof, you know, done to normalize
or stabilize the gender binary.
But the truth is that, likethis lover of Alexander the
(19:09):
Great, that really was his mostrecorded lover, was in fact
transcending the gender binary.
And you know this was justaffirming the possibility of
there being something beyond thebinary, that this great warrior
, with these recorded storiesand again we've talked about it
Warriors were always sleepingwith people of all different
geniors.
They were just trying to get itwhere they could get it.
But this was the most profoundrelationship recorded Alexander
(19:33):
the Great's life and it doesbring up the question of the
number of times throughouthistory that we've heard of a
eunuch character, and was thateunuch a quote unquote eunuch,
or were they in fact atransgender person that they
were struggling to find aidentifier or a title for a
label for?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, and that's a fascinating point of view, and I
am certain that they are transresearchers out there looking at
that very issue as we speak.
And if you are a transresearcher, and you are
listening to this.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
We've reached out to us because we need to know more.
We have asked a lot ofquestions.
More, more, more.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Yes, exactly, but so we hope you enjoyed this very
cursory dive into medieval artand sculpture in the Catholic
Church and elsewhere.
But it does evidence quiteclearly that being transgender
diverse and gender non-binary isnot a recent phenomenon, as
some have argued Right.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
And we know that science is on the side of
transgender and gender diversefolk and I hope this episode
helps our listeners know thathistory is also on the side of
gender and gender folk.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
That's right.
Well said Shannon.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
History and science, and so do we have some good news
?
Yeah, do we have some good news?
We have a little bit of goodnews.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
We have a little.
I want to highlight a littlebit of good news from the sex
education front in two areas.
First of all, we do have agroup that's trying to develop
national sex education standardsand those standards which is
really cool is actually.
One of the highlights of thatis gender identity and
expression, and so we do havethat right there wants school
(21:13):
districts to start teachingabout gender identity and
expression and in the context ofgender roles and social norms
around gender roles, starting Kto 2.
Which is awesome.
The second piece of legislationthat actually I want, I hope
abroad Swath of you are aware of, because this has actually been
(21:36):
introduced in 2023 in ourfederal Congress and it's called
the Real Education and Accessfor Healthy Youth Act of 2023.
And the purpose behind that actis to one uphold the rights of
young people to make decisionsabout their bodies and health
(21:57):
and sexuality, which obviouslyis quite important, but also
looks to preserve the right togender affirming care, and right
now this bill is beingsponsored by I believe 33
senators and I think 50something members of the House
(22:20):
of Representatives.
So for you listeners out therewill post it on as a resource on
the sex had debunked page, butit's called the Real Education
and Access for Healthy Youth Actand if you call your
legislature or your staterepresentative, you can tell
them that this act is importantto you and gender affirming care
(22:41):
for youth is important to you.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Absolutely so.
Again, this is the TransAwareness Week and we are coming
up on the Trans Day ofRemembrance.
So, to our trans community, weare here for you and we have
about 20,000 listeners who alsoare here for you, and we will
continue to educate as much aswe can.
(23:05):
We are here and we'll have openears if there is anything else
we should be talking about, butwe are here for you and we fully
believe in the right to everysingle person to be exactly who
they are and express exactly whothey are, and we really hope
our listeners feel the same andthat more people will continue
to rally and show their supportin that way.
(23:26):
So that is another episode ofSex Ed Debunked.
That is our study session.
We'll be back next week with afull episode and, as usual, if
you have any questions, topics,comments, concerns, weird quotes
, funny sex stories, whateveryou've got that you want to
share with us, we are atsexeddebunkedcom and all socials
at sexeddebunked.
(23:46):
Thanks everyone for listeningand have a great week.
Bye now.
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