April 17, 2022 • 44 mins
Masturbation is often a taboo subject in marriage. People keep it hidden out of shame and fear of hurting their partner's feelings. And for some, a partner masturbating brings up deep feelings of shame. They feel that this is proof that they are not desired, and they feel deeply hurt that "my husband prefers his hand over me", or "my wife prefers her vibrator over me".
These feelings lead to efforts to ban masturbation from the marriage which just results in one partner hiding part of themselves. And, as we all know, trying to hide from your partner never turns out well.
Today I'm talking with Dr. Ari Tuckman on this important topic. Ari has a unique combination of skills. He is a psychologist, an expert on ADHD, and a Certified Sex Therapist. I think you'll enjoy this interesting show about sexuality and marriage.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's
therapist in San Francisco.
I wanna welcome you to sex loveand couple's therapy.
We all want to feel loved.
That's a universal desire, butsometimes instead of feeling
loving our relationships, feelconfusing, frustrating, and a
(00:27):
little crazy making The purposeof this podcast is to help you
clear up some of that confusionso that you and your partner can
find ways to make yourrelationship feel closer or
connect to do more loving.
So stay tuned.
We've got a lot of great stuffto talk about, and now let's go
talk about my three favoritetopics, sex love, and couples
(00:52):
therapy.
Well welcome everybody to sexlove and couples therapy.
And I couldn't be happier thanto tell you about our guest
today.
Dr.
Ari Tuckman, Ari has a uniquecombination of both an interest
in ADHD and is a certified sextherapist.
(01:15):
He's an international presenterauthor of four books on ADHD,
including his most recent one Dafter dark better sex life,
better relationship.
He has appeared on CNN andnational public radio and had
been quoted in the New Yorktimes, Boston globe, Washington
post and men's health.
And today amazingly Dr.
(01:36):
Tuckman is here with us on sexlove and couples therapy.
Ari, welcome.
Thanks so much for coming.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's my pleasure.
I'm always happy to talk aboutthis stuff.
So I'll take, I'll take mostoffers.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So I was wondering just to get started, um, you
know, becoming a certified sextherapist is no easy feat that
requires a lot of effort, a lotof study, a lot of training, a
lot of work and, and time andmoney.
And I'm wondering, and, but youalso have this very successful
(02:10):
kind of, and you're very wellknown, uh, around ADHD.
And I'm wondering kind of wherethose two things came from and
how they kind of come together.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, it, it is a good question.
So, I mean, I've been doingstuff with ADHD, especially ADHD
and adults, which is definitelyused to be a seriously
underserved population.
And now is just kind of mostlystill an underserved it's less
of an underserved, so we're notkilling it yet, but, um, you
(02:42):
know, so like a lot of what Idid for a lot of years was
really sort of focusing onadults of ADHD being more
effective in day to day life.
So just managing, you know, allthe responsibilities of
adulthood or in the case ofteens and kids, right?
So like, how do you keep trackof things?
How do you set priorities?
How do you get stuff done andstay organized?
And, you know, just all thatstuff, it's all important, it's
(03:04):
all good stuff, but kind of moreand more over, you know, those
20 years, I kind of got to apoint where I was like, you know
what?
This is op like, duh, right?
This is not just about theindividuals.
We're not, you know, we don'tlive on an island by ourselves.
We live with other people andwe're social creatures.
We, we depend on other people.
We want other people in ourlives and we want that to go
(03:28):
well.
So I became more and moreinterested in this sort of
relationship and the couplestherapy piece, as well as, you
know, family relationshipsbetween, you know, kids, teens,
and parents, but obviously a bigpart of relationships is
sexuality.
I mean, it's not the whole thinghopefully, but like that's an
important part.
(03:48):
And I kind of felt that by notaddressing that piece in a very
explicit and direct kind of away, it, I don't know, like that
I was sort of missing a prettygood lever, so to speak, to pull
, to help my individual andcouple's therapy clients kind of
do better.
Right.
Be happy or enjoy each othermore so that when the
(04:11):
inevitable, frustratingannoyances of like, I don't
know, you left the milk out andnow it's bad, right?
Like when that stuff comes up,they have a bit of, you know,
gas in the tank, a bit ofresilience, resilience to bounce
over the setback and keep going,feeling good about each other.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah.
No, I think one of the thingsthat I've, I've seen, um, is
that while that sexual part ofthe relationship is so critical,
it's the last thing that couplesare often willing or interested
in talking about even, even incouple's therapy.
Yeah.
You know, I, I find that I'malways the one who has to bring
(04:52):
that up.
Mm-hmm they almostnever bring up sex.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Unless it's kind of the core issue that's driving
them to, to therapy, but theydon't wanna bring that up.
And most interestingly is thatto me, is that many couples
therapists shy away frombringing up sex, which I think
is just crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah.
I know that I was gonna, thatwas actually gonna be the
response I had is like, youknow, in defense of the couples,
a lot of couples therapistsdon't bring it up either.
Oh.
Which is, is sort of crazy.
It's like, I don't know.
It's like being a childtherapist and not bringing up
school.
Right.
You know, or something like, Idon't know.
Like, um, so yeah, I mean, theproblem is a lot of couples
(05:33):
therapists, as insane as this isto say, have like minimal
training in sexuality beyondthis sort of general obvious.
Right.
But it, but yeah.
I mean, I think it is importantand it can feel really
vulnerable and intimate and hardto discuss.
And yet, like anything, if youcan't be specific and direct
(05:58):
about it, if you can't ask forwhat you want, if you can't hear
what your partner wants withoutfreaking out about it, um, um,
you know, probably doesn't go aswell.
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I think that's so true.
And I think, you know, as withall things that same
vulnerability and discomfort is,is extended to the, to the
therapist and he, or she isuncomfortable kind of bringing
these things up and talkingabout them and if they're
uncomfortable, how can theyexpect their, their clients to
(06:30):
the patients to kind of havethis comfortable discussion
about this and to normalize thisbehavior?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah.
It's so true.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Even
Speaker 1 (06:40):
That,
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Even beyond that, it kind of, it potentially sends
the message that, you know, likeif you're the, the couple there
and your therapist seems a bitweird and awkward about
sexuality, it kind of reinforcesthe idea of wow.
Sex really is hard to talkabout.
Look, even this seems a bitsqueamish about it, you know,
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So true.
Yeah.
No, I completely agree with you.
But, and then, so just talkingabout sex is hard, but then
talking about masturbationmm-hmm
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Way, it just takes it up another two searches.
It does.
So people will be willing totalk about sex if they have to,
but God, they don't want to talkabout masturbation.
Yeah.
And I have to tell you sex thetherapists, not sex therapists,
but regular therapists reallydon't want to talk about that.
Yeah.
It just is.
It's, there's too much going onthere in my experience with
(07:35):
couples, um, that question ofmasturbation really becomes is
really there, but it's notsomething that people are
talking about because often onepartner or the other is, is
masturbating and the otherpartner is unhappy about it or
has questions about it or hasfeelings about it, but they're
(07:57):
unable to talk about it.
And so everybody's a littleuncomfortable and, and, uh, at
the core part of that, and Ithink we, we were talking before
we got started, is this questionis, does my sexuality belong to
my partner?
Mm-hmm is, am Ionly a sexual person within the
(08:17):
marriage when we're together?
Or do I have a sexual identity,you know, separate of that or,
and sexual experience, that'sseparate of that.
And I'm not talking about, youknow, going out and sleep with,
with other people, but just doI, as a person have a sexual
identity separate from that whenI'm with my spouse or partner.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's
Speaker 1 (08:39):
A big question.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
and it
is.
And you know, so I think this iswhat makes talking about
masturbation so difficult, butalso I think so incredibly
interesting because right.
It, it sort of taps into thesemuch bigger, more universal sort
of dynamics and questions aboutrelationships, about how, you
(09:02):
know, a relationship is twoindividuals and it's also a
couple, right?
So it's three things and itcan't be one and it can't be
the, it can, it can't be toomuch of one and it can't be too
much of the other, you know?
So like how does that getbalanced out?
And in some ways, I mean, likethere are certain topics in life
that really become, uh, thesekind of places where you gotta
(09:25):
figure it out.
So mm-hmm,, youknow, things like, I don't know,
there are some bands I reallylike that my wife finds either
at best annoying or at worst,just born offensive.
Right.
But that's fine because I justdon't put it on the speaker and
I listen on my headphones or Ilisten at the gym and it's like,
not a problem.
Mm-hmm, but thenthere's other things in life
(09:47):
that are not quite as easy.
So things like how many kids arewe gonna have?
Right.
I can't decide to have threekids.
And my wife decides to have one.
I mean, I, if we wanna staytogether, um, in terms of money
that we spend or don't spend,right, a dollar spent is gone,
right.
You can't spend some of the, or,you know, spend it, but not
spend it.
And I think that sexuality andmasturbation it, it fits into
(10:10):
that as well.
In the sense of like, are wedoing it?
Are we not doing it?
And couples have to actuallycome to a decision, they need to
talk about it.
They need to understand eachother, understand themselves and
then come to a decision.
And I think that when theydon't, then you get either,
well, mostly what you get iskind of secret masturbation.
(10:33):
Um, I was gonna say sometimesalso what you get is like, uh,
you know, okay.
Find sort of a resentfulcompliance of, I won't do it,
but boy, am I not happy aboutit?
Yes.
Um, and you know, the problemwith secret, whatever is it it's
often found out, right?
Most of us are not beingrecruited by the CIA for our,
(10:54):
you know, stealth skills.
And if you're with someoneenough, it's only a matter of
time before, you know, somehowsomething gets discovered.
Um, yeah.
And you know, now we've got aproblem and probably with
terrible timing of when it, andhow it came out, but now we have
two problems.
The one is you were doing thisthing, the other is you were
hiding it from me, you know, soright.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And not to, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think we
actually have three problems.
Yeah.
Because the other is that I'm, Ihave a lot of feelings about the
fact that I had to hide this.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yes,
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yes.
So I may be resentful or unhappyor whatever, uh, shameful,
because I'm maybe in, in therules of that marriage, I'm
lying to you.
Or so yeah.
I've got a lot of feelings thatI'm carrying around.
Everybody's got feelings aboutthis, but nobody's talking about
it.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, exactly.
And like everything that isn'ttalked about, like it, it makes
more problems.
Yeah.
So, but you know, this is whereit, it's hard.
I mean, the obvious advice isyou should talk about it, but
like the obvious advice also isyou should wake up at six in the
morning, go running and then youshould floss and then you should
eat kale.
Right.
(12:03):
So like the, the saying is theeasy part, but, but it's hard.
It is hard.
It's hard to have thoseconversations.
It, especially about things likesexuality that can feel so
vulnerable and that are so opento judgment, you know?
Like, is there something that'sinteresting to me that is gonna
(12:24):
freak you out and then you'regonna get judging and critical
about it.
Does it change how you see me ordoes your reaction change?
How I see you.
Right.
Um, but like that is life.
That is relationships.
Um, intimacy is not, you know,only telling me the parts of
you.
I like intimacy is also man.
There's some weird stuff aboutyou.
(12:44):
I totally don't get it, butthat's okay.
Cuz there's all the rest of youthat I really do love and
appreciate.
And you know, I can tolerateother stuff, you know, if we
handle it well.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah.
I think that's, that's reallytrue.
The interesting thing about, um,masturbation is that even
individually, maybe before I'min a relationship or when I'm a
kid or when I'm growing up, evenwhen I, if I'm not in a
relationship, there's all thisstigma and shame around this and
(13:20):
I'm wondering what your thoughtsare as to kind of what the
origin is to the shame that wecarry around us kind of
culturally around masturbating.
Why is it that it's okay to goout and sleep with men or women,
but not to kind of have to on,on your own?
(13:42):
Yeah.
I just, I just wondering whatyour thoughts are on that.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it, it'sdefinitely a true thing that,
you know, I mean, it kind ofcomes down to this idea that
sexuality is how dangerous, youknow, like there there's risk
there's, you know, problems comefrom, you know, too much
sexuality or something.
(14:05):
And I mean, it can like, ittotally can.
Mm-hmm people maketerrible, terrible decisions
about sexuality, but like, let'sbe honest, people make terrible
decisions, everything.
Right.
So sex is not really unique atall.
Like it's not, um, yeah, but youknow, but it's this kind of
basic distrust of sexuality.
And I think it comes out of thisidea that, you know, LA LA, LA,
(14:29):
LA LA, I'm not thinking aboutit.
It doesn't exist.
Right.
Like this idea that you can justsort of like make it go away.
And if you don't pay attentionto it, then somehow it just sort
of doesn't it ceases to exist,which is slightly true, maybe,
but mostly not.
Um, and you know, it sort of,unfortunately it creates this
very self-fulfilling prophecythat if you can't talk about
(14:51):
sexuality, if you can't thinkabout it in a clear and complete
way, I think it is more likelyto cause problems.
Yeah.
Um, you know, so I mean, this islike a basic thing.
Um, you know, folks who grow upin areas where they don't have,
where they have marginal sex edor, you know, just for, you
(15:11):
know, ineffective and inaccuratesex ed have higher rates of STDs
and higher rates of unplannedpregnancies.
So, you know, like even justthat one basic, you know, fact I
think tells a lot.
So, you know, the thing about itis sexuality, whether alone or
was someone else, right.
It's neither good nor bad.
It's a question of what do youdo with it?
(15:33):
Are you making reasonablechoices or you're making
responsible, respectful choicesabout what you do?
Um, and I think that, you know,certainly, yeah.
I mean, I think that that'swhere it gets so complicated is
that there's a stigma about eventalking or thinking about it.
So then people don't have thelanguage or the comfort to
(15:53):
really kind of figure this out.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Right.
And I think that makes a lot ofsense.
And also, as you were talkingabout earlier in talking about
sexuality in general or inmasturbation, there's this deep
fear that who I am or what I amor what I to be will not be
acceptable to my partner.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
And if I show my hand that it's gonna bring us, tear
us up, pull us apart rather thanhelp bring us together.
And so the safest thing is tojust keep part of who I am under
the covers kind of hidden.
And, but of course the result ofthat is that I don't get as
(16:39):
close as I want to be.
Cuz I, I crave this closeness,you know, I want to be close
with my partner to be open andconnected and attached and, and
loving.
And, but I'm afraid that if Ireally tell him or her who I am
at this dimension that like yousaid, though, I'll be judged.
(17:02):
Uh, I'll be, won't be acceptedand I'll be, you know, hurt and
disappointed that it turns out,ah, I can't have this thing I
want to have, you know?
Yeah.
And you're not the person, youknow, are you the person I
should be with, if you can'treally accept the person that I
really am.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And it's so difficult.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
It is.
But you know, the thing isyou're putting your finger on,
this is the dilemma of intimacy.
Yeah.
You know, we, we want it and yetwe're scared of it because
there's a risk, there's a greatcomfort in having it, that you
have this thing that you feelkind of uncertain or even
shameful about and you put itout there and your partner is
(17:45):
really supportive and wonderfulabout it.
We all hope for that.
But also the reality is ifyou're, you know, once you get
past the honeymoon phase, yourpartner's not gonna be okay with
everything, you know, and somestuff that you bring up might
tweak something in them fortheir own reasons.
So, you know, so real intimacyonce you've been around a while,
(18:10):
doesn't involve, you know, like,um, kind of validating
everything that is, that's afalse premise like that won't
happen.
Um, but that's okay.
You know, like that realintimacy comes from the ability
to be clear about who you areand to be able to self validate,
to say like, you know what I, Ifeel okay about this.
(18:31):
Even if my partner doesn't, youknow, so again, back to the kind
of dumb example of the bands, I,some of the bands I listen to,
like, I feel totally fine.
Like I understand all thecomplexities and the nuances and
why she has her concerns, but Ifeel totally fine about the
bands I listen to.
Um, but you know, this, thisalso then becomes, there's kind
(18:53):
of a distinction here betweenwhat do we feel and what do we
do?
So if I'm cranking up music thatshe hates, right.
That's not really respectful.
Um, I think by the same token,if she says, I forbid you from
listening to them, even byyourself, that's also not
respectful.
Right.
Right.
And the problem is, you know,mandates tend to result in at
(19:16):
best resentful compliance and atworst, you know, secret cheating
of whatever sort.
So, um, you know, so this iswhere it gets kind of
complicated.
And I think that, you know, ifyou're sort of, if you're
masturbating unplugged, so tospeak right, where you're, it's
just you and your fantasies, youknow, who's to know, right.
Like no one can prove anythingof what's going on in your head.
(19:39):
Now this thing kind of gets intothe porn topic.
And I can't believe we've almosthit 20 minutes without bringing
up porn in the topic ofmasturbation, but, but good
kudos to us, right.
Because masturbation and porn,not this same thing like they,
right.
Those need to be two separateconversations.
But, um, you know, the thingabout it is if your partner
finds your browser history,mm-hmm, all of a
(20:01):
sudden something is out on thetable right now, what your
partner thinks is on the tablemight not be the same thing as
what, you know, you are sort offocusing on, but like there,
there it is right there in a waythat's very hard to deny.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
But I think that I, I totally agree, um, that they are
not at all the same thing, butthey often come up together in
discussion between partners andyou know, this desire of one
partner to con control.
The masturbation of the otherpartner is really an interesting
(20:36):
phenomena.
Mm-hmm within therelationship.
And to me, and I'm wonderingwhat you think is that it's
driven by the sense that I'm notenough.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
That if you have to do that, that really means that
I'm not enough for you.
Mm-hmm.
And that, that is such anuncomfortable feeling to have of
not being enough, that the way Ideal with it is to forbid I'm
gonna manage it.
I'm gonna date.
And I'm going to make, which iswhat I really hate.
(21:11):
And I see happen.
I'm gonna make masturbation aform of cheating of infidelity.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
If you have to look at naked guys or naked girls,
then that's cheating.
That's really an and a extensionof this feeling of I'm not
enough, but it takes, it's ahard discussion working with
couples to help them look atthat.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah.
Well, and I think that, and Ithink that this is a really, I
think it's a great example.
That again goes way beyond justthis topic, but is really so
sort of present in many, manytopics with couples, but, you
know, so the question then is,so here is a thing that is
happening right.
In this case masturbation.
(21:59):
But, but what does it mean?
You know, so, so right.
You know, often, like you said,often they kind of first go to,
is this means I'm not for oursexual shared sexual experience.
Isn't enough.
That's an assumption.
Now, if your partner says,honey, the reason why I is
because you are not enough forme, or you're not hot enough or
(22:19):
you're not good enough or someright.
If they actually say that as areason, then okay.
Deal with that as a reason.
But my guess is probably not.
Right.
Yeah.
Almost never.
When I hear, when I have clientswho talk about masturbating,
almost never like ever, I don'tknow, has it happened once?
(22:39):
I don't know where they're like,yeah.
The reason why I is because I,my partner's not really that
good in bed.
Right.
That's not the thing thathappens.
So, so before we go kind arunning to conclusions, let's
actually find out like, stopmm-hmm, get your
head back on, find out actually,what is going on with your
partner?
Why do they do it?
(23:01):
How is it different from sharedexperiences?
What does it all mean?
Um, which is just goodrelationship advice of every
very kind, you know.
Um, so, you know, it's kind oflike the idea of like understand
the situation before you figureout what to do about it.
Because if you don't understandthe situation, you're gonna
apply the wrong solutions so tospeak.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah.
So I'm an EFT therapist and anEFT.
What we talk about is temp EMP,which is that there's a trigger
mm-hmm,, let's sayin this case, masturbation and I
have an emotional response tothat, but then there's also this
big part where I make meaning ofit.
Yeah.
Is I have a story that I tellabout what this means.
(23:46):
Sure.
And then I have this reaction orthis protective reaction, but I
think what you're saying, and Ithink is very true is we have to
get down to that story ofunderstanding, what do we see as
the meaning of this for both ofus okay.
For both partners so that we canreally get down to what, what is
(24:06):
actually happening as opposed tokind of this, this story I make
up on my own.
Well, if he's doing that, thatmeans I'm not enough or we're
not enough.
Yeah.
Or he doesn't love me or I'm notdesirable.
And, but I agree, it's, it's,it's almost never about the set
is like, it's just the same way.
(24:27):
There's this kind of belief,this myth that people cheat have
, it are unfaithful because thesex at home isn't good enough or
frequent enough and well, maybe5% at the time or 3% of the time
that might be the core issue.
(24:48):
Right.
But no, no,, that's not,what's going on 95% of the time.
It's not about, about that.
And, and the same thing here.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah.
Well, and the, you know, so thething of it is if, you know, if,
if you have the wrongunderstanding for what's
happening, you know, you're,you're gonna wind up with the
wrong, like I said, you're gonnawind up with the wrong
solutions.
Right?
Yeah.
So, you know, it's really hard,really, really hard for these
kind of sensitive vulnerablesubjects to actually like calm
(25:22):
your response enough to reallyactually be able to hear what
you're part is saying.
But, you know, part of it alsois it's, it can be hard for the
partner to reveal it partiallybecause of their own shame and
discomfort with it.
Or maybe they're not a hundredpercent clear inside themselves
about, you know, what are theydoing and why, and what does it
mean and what doesn't it and allthat.
(25:45):
Um, you know, but it also kindof become this thing.
If they, if the partner who gotcaught is concerned about their
other partner's response,they're probably gonna be less
honest.
Or as I say, you know, you can'tpunish honesty and expect the
truth, you know?
So if the, if the partner whocatches someone masturbating
(26:06):
either blows a up and gets angryor falls apart into tears and
you know, is kind of beatingthemselves up.
Both of those, nobody wantsthat, you know?
So that is likely to shut thepartner down, perhaps lead to
sort of false promises.
I'll never do it again, whichthey probably mean at the
moment.
Sometimes they're lying andthey're like, no, I don't mean
(26:26):
it.
I fricking know I'm gonna dothis again.
I'm just, I just don't want todeal with you right now.
But like, but you know,probably, you know, if you're
not a sociopath, right.
You mean it when you say it.
Right.
But you know, it's like if youtold your wife, okay, that from
now on, I'm going to every day,I'm waking up at 6:00 AM going
for a run, right?
Like, no, you're not right.
(26:47):
Let's all be honest.
That's not, don't like, youshouldn't say it and she
shouldn't believe it.
So, um, but you know, the otherside of this is especially in
couples that have kind of abigger, desired discrepancy as
it's called.
In other words, one person wouldlike to four times a week, the
other is more than happy withones.
It creates this terrible, no winsituation that either the one,
(27:10):
the higher desire partner iseither feels deprived all the
time, which is a setup fortrouble or worse.
Maybe, um, the lower desirepartner feels like they're
having sex.
They don't want right.
The best way to kill your sexlife is have sex.
You don't want, you know, andthen the hire desire partner
knows the low desire partner.
(27:30):
It's only showing up cuz theyhave to.
Yeah.
Right.
It's like, it's like the goingto the DMV to get your license
renewed.
Right.
Like, oh, that that's as excitedas you are about this.
Great.
Um, so, you know, I think to beable to have an honest
discussion and you know, I thinkthat this is often a thing that
doesn't happen, right?
(27:51):
Like this thing, if you cheatedon me, well, cheating implies
that there was a mutualunderstanding and agreement and
maybe there was, but you knowwhat, often there isn't right
there.
Isn't there hasn't been adiscussion.
Did they cheat?
I don't know.
It feels like it, but yourpartner may not feel the same
way.
So like, let's be clear on whatare we doing?
(28:12):
How does this all fit together?
Where do your, your desires andmy desires, where do they
intersect and where do theydiverge?
And really, really be honest.
And don't make agreements.
You can't keep
Speaker 1 (28:22):
As you, you, you kind of started that, that discussion
right now with, you know, let'shave an honest discussion, but
I'm wondering how do you, as a,as a sex therapist, as, as a
couple's therapist, help yourcouples learn how to have an
honest discussion.
I mean, what, how can we helppeople learn how to actually
talk about this instead of hidefrom it?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's about, it'sabout really being able to be
honest and vulnerable and to, tospeak from your own experience.
Mm-hmm and to beable to ask a lot of questions,
get curious about your partner'sexperience and a good way to
have void that is to talk ingeneralities or to make sweeping
(29:10):
generalizations.
All men, all women, all porn,all master, like that's a great
way to not talk about yourself.
You know what, it doesn't matterwhat other couples do.
It doesn't matter.
Like unless you're a policymaker or a something, right.
Like it does, does it matterwhat society is doing?
Um, you are two people togetherin one relationship.
(29:32):
It only matters what the two ofyou are doing.
Talk about yourself, right.
Be clear about how you feelabout what is interesting, what
feels uncomfortable.
Definitely the reasons why let'sget into the whys of this let's
really, really understand thesituation before we have any
discussion about what we'redoing about it.
(29:52):
Mm-hmm and, youknow, in terms of this, we can,
you know, we can't control whatour partner feels or thinks or
design, but we do have some, youknow, say on what they do or at
least we have some say on whatwe do, you know?
So, you know, I'm asking you,like, this makes me feel really
uncomfortable.
I'm asking that you don't dothis kind of a thing.
(30:15):
Um, right.
Okay.
You know, um, maybe, and thenfor the other partner either to
say, you know what, okay, fine.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll do that.
You know, like I accept the factthat I won't be listened to some
bands, you know, on the Sonos,in the kitchen in the morning.
Um, but, but you know, in otherways to say like, you know what,
like, I can't like, no, I can't,I, I can't, I'm not gonna agree
(30:38):
to that.
Like, I will not feel good aboutit.
I feel like I'm selling self outand I don't think I'm gonna be
able to stick to it.
So like let's again, no falseagreements back to the drawing
board.
Let's talk some more.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah.
No, I think that's very right.
If you don't mind already, I'mgonna press, I'm gonna push a
little bit on you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Do
Speaker 1 (30:56):
It.
How do we get people to bewilling?
Or how do we help people to bewilling to start that of talking
about themselves?
Mm-hmm, you know,where do you go to help them
kind of open up, begin to openup those that way, um, and take
and take that risk, the, thatvulnerable risk.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
So this is a cost of doing business.
If you wanna be in a satisfyinglong term relationship, this is
what it takes on this topic andmany others.
But if you can do it well onthis topic, you will carry those
skills to whatever the othertopics are.
(31:37):
So, you know, if you want anongoing, satisfying relationship
in general, if you want anongoing, satisfying sex life,
these are the conversations thatyou need to be able to have.
They're not fun all the time.
And, you know, we wish we didn'thave to, but like, this is
adulthood.
This is what really goodrelationships require.
(31:59):
But the good news is there's alot of benefit for it.
You know, it's like after you gofor a run, you don't always
wanna beforehand.
Hopefully you feel okay, fiveminutes in, but you know, like
you're better off for it.
You know, like that is a goodthing.
And all the rest of your day andall the rest of your week is
better for having done it.
So, you know, so I think toreally kind of remind yourself
(32:21):
of what the benefit is on theother side, even if you're just
sort of taking it on faith.
Um, but you know, like if, as acouple you keep kind of crashing
into the same rocks, which isoften the case.
Um, I don't know, like it mightbe that seeing a therapist
together can, you know, help youguys learn some better ways to
(32:42):
kind of manage the process alittle differently so that, you
know, those conversations gobetter.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Right?
No, I totally agree with that.
One of the ways I frame thiswith my couples is that one of
my jobs, or one of my primaryjob freely is to help them have
difficult conversations thatthey're having trouble doing on
their own.
Yes.
Cause as you said, they keepcrashing into that same rock.
(33:10):
And so we're, we're having adifficult conversation together.
The three of us and my job ishelp keep them present.
And here in that conversation,because it's so uncomfortable
that it's kind of like a peoplewant to escape or they, so
they'll, they'll either try notto have it or they'll, they'll
(33:34):
put up what I call Shaf, youknow, something to distract.
Yeah, sure.
So they'll, they'll, they'll,they'll throw something up.
That's totally unrelated, butjust let's, let's go do let's
you know, it's like, let's golook over here.
It's kinda like this direction and so we sit together
the three of us working veryslowly through a difficult
(33:54):
conversation.
Yeah.
And it, and everybody feels kindof uncomfortable, but like you
said, really better for theprocess.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah.
And I think I'm gonna highlighta word you use slowly.
Mm.
Bad conversations happenquickly.
Right.
Move quickly, betterconversations happen much more
slowly.
Right.
In that, you know, a couplewho's been around for a while.
Right?
Like they move quickly throughthe bad conversation cuz we all
(34:27):
know the script.
Right.
You know like, oh this is how itgoes here.
I say this.
And then you say that, and thenI do this and then you do that,
right?
Like you don't have to have theconversation cuz you already
know how it's gonna go.
So the trick is to really,really, really slow it down to,
down to call a timeout.
If you need it with, you know,the implicit agreement that you
(34:47):
will indeed come back, timeoutis not forever.
It's just for now.
Um, and to really try tounderstand the situation in a
better way to really kind ofkeep in mind what are my better
ways of responding?
Cause we all have the ease E badways.
Those are pretty ingrained.
Um, mm-hmm youknow, and you really be able to
kind of hang in there and findout what's going on with
(35:10):
yourself.
Find out what's going on withyour partner and to not read in
what isn't actually there.
You know?
And that's a lot of where we getourselves into trouble is we, we
start making assumptions thatare, are really not actually all
that true.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And I think, you know, in terms on a functional
level, like you said abouttaking breaks, this isn't a
problem that we have to solve.
It's like, okay, so last nightmy wife and I are working out,
you know?
Okay.
So some issue around taxes andyou know, so we had, we had to
solve that problem.
How big a check are we gonnawrite and what, from what
(35:45):
account?
Okay.
Mm-hmm but whenwe're talking about when, when
couples are talking about theirsex life, this is like an
ongoing conversation.
This is not let's solve thisproblem.
Come to an answer.
This is like, oh, I didn't knowthat.
Let's talk about that.
Let's you know, that curiosityand that slowness, like you
talked about is so hard to do,but so beneficial to, to see
(36:08):
this as, oh, let's slow thisdown.
What does that really mean?
What you just said?
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah.
That is
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Especially about sex, which is so especially
Speaker 1 (36:20):
About sex.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
It's so loaded.
There's so much kind of, I don'tknow, just sort of like implicit
knowledge about it, you know?
Yeah.
And then by implicit, what Imean is not always right.
But you know, all these kind ofsocietal messages, so it's like,
oh, I know what that means.
Do you no seriously, like, doyou know what that means?
And you know, there's alsosomething there of like having
(36:44):
your partner really sort ofquestion some stuff mm-hmm
might help youyourself, better understand it.
Right.
You know, what does this mean?
Does it mean anything thatthat's worth knowing?
Does it not like what's the dealhere to really, really kind of
understand it.
Um, and you know, nobody's gonnachallenge you to understand
(37:05):
yourself and what you do morethan your partner is.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yes.
Yes.
And my experience is also thatpeople besides wanted to solve
it, they want to bring it downto, well, what do we do?
What, you know, oh, so you wantme to, to do this?
Or you want me, you know, or Iwant this behavior in bed and
nine times outta 10, that's notreally what's going on.
What I really want to do is Iwant to talk to you about how it
(37:30):
feels to have sex with you, howI feel about our sex life, how
it feels like for us to betogether, you know, how I feel
about my own sex, sexuality andthe ways in which I'm kind of
happy or not happy.
It's not, not about we do movenumber 12 more often.
That's not the deal.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Right.
Well, I think it's also reallyimportant, you know, like, I
don't know, what does movenumber 12 mean?
You know, why is it interesting?
What is it about that versussomething else that seems
interesting to you or thatfeels, you know, like
uncomfortable to the otherperson?
Um, you know, because again,like that's the place where we
(38:08):
make tons of assumptions reallyquickly.
Oh, I know what that means.
Well, but, but do you, do you,um, yeah.
Yeah.
So, and that, I don't know, likein some ways I think it's that
willingness to explorewillingness to kind of let some
things evolve that keeps life in.
If you're gonna have sex withthe same person for like 40
(38:30):
years, you know, like a, alittle bit of a variety is
probably a helpful thing.
Um, you know, or otherwise youget into, this is kind of one of
my favorite lines, you know,from the, the lake great Robin
Williams where he said, youknow, I don't know what the big
deal is about same sex marriage,cuz you know, anybody who's been
married for a while knows it'sall the same sex anyway.
(38:55):
Right.
That's true in some way, likethere's the part of it.
That's kind of sad and there's apart of it.
That's actually kind of cool.
Right?
The part that's sad is if you'renot able to have these
discussions, it is the same sexand let's be honest.
It's not that much moreinteresting, you know, becomes
less interesting or over time ifyou're having exactly the same
sex every single time.
(39:16):
Um, the part that's kind of coolis it may be the same sex in a
sort of, I don't know, in thesense of what the camera might
capture, if you know what Imean, in terms of the acts that
are performed or something, butkind of emotionally or
interpersonally, it can be adifferent experience in it
physically.
It's a lot of the same kinds ofthings, you know, it's sort of
(39:38):
like, how do you show up in thatsexual experience?
What do you bring to it and howdo you and your partner
interact, cuz you can absolutelyhave sex with another person and
have like very little going onbetween.
It's like, you know, parallelplay.
It's like two people in the sameroom, but they really, really
connected and open and, andintimate.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
No, that's so true.
That's a great point.
Well, Ari, I, I wanna berespectful of your time and, and
start, uh, wrapping up cuz thisis, but I have to tell you, this
has been the fastest 40 minutes.
This has been such aninteresting discussion.
It just flew the time, just flewby, but I want to make a make,
take a second to make sure tomention kind of you actually
(40:21):
have, um, four books around, um,ADHD.
I mean one's a, one's a clinicalbook mm-hmm but I'm
just gonna mention the titles.
The most recent one is ADHDafter dark, better sex life and
better relationships.
Then this other one isunderstanding your brain, get
more done.
The ADHD executive functionworkbook, and lastly, more
(40:45):
attention, less deficit successstrategies for adults with ADHD.
And I just want to kind of, um,suggest to kind of listeners
that if you have a ADHD or, oryou have, um, a partner or a kid
or a friend and they're and yousee them struggling, um, that
these books are extraordinaryresources to helping people live
(41:06):
more successful, morecomfortable lives with while
accepting and actually throughaccepting and embracing and
understanding kind of how theirbrain works.
It's not like their brain isbad.
It's like, oh, I've gottaunderstand how, how my brain
works.
And if I understand that, then Ican make all, all kinds of
wonderful decisions andstrategies for managing.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah.
I mean I'm a firm believer ineducation and maybe cuz I'm a
little bit impatient by which, Imean I'm more than a little bit
impatient.
Um, like do not reinventthe wheel.
Right?
Smart people have come beforeyou people have figured out
really good ideas.
Don't figure it out the hardway.
Um, and you know, the wholepurpose of a diagnosis or a
(41:48):
label of any kind is it helps usunderstand situation, which
narrows us down to the thingsthat are gonna be most likely to
be helpful.
And yeah, you know, like mybooks are full of things that I
hope to be helpful.
There's lots of other good stuffout there.
Um, you know, the national ADHDorganization, chad.org, C H a
(42:10):
d.org, um, you know, there'slots of good inform, do not
struggle figuring it outyourself.
So, you know, for the personwith ADHD, for the partner also
equally, or if you're, you know,you got a kid, by the way, if
you have a kid with ADHD, goodchance, one of the parents has
ADHD.
So you know, a lot of parentsget a lot of adults get
(42:30):
diagnosed through their kids.
Um, that's interesting, butyeah, I mean, you know, take
this information, use it well sothat you're both happier.
And by the way, if you're thenon ADHD partner, you're not
listening to that blog orpodcast or, or reading the blog
or listen to the podcast orwebinar or book as a favor to
your partner, you're doing it asa favor to yourself.
(42:53):
You'll both be happier.
So, so yeah, so I appreciate youbringing this up cuz like I'm
all about knowledge andempowerment.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
And I think that the point you just made was so
important.
You're not doing it as a favorto them.
You're doing it as a favor toyourself.
This is how you express and showboth love and connection, but
also how you are more successfuland HAPPI you're in that
relationship that you have withthat person.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
And how you support them.
Well, Ari Tuckman, thank you somuch.
This has been just great.
I really appreciate the time andthe discussion it's been
wonderful.
I, and um, I wish you all thebest you take care.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
All right, bye bye.
Well, that's our episode fortoday.
I hope you found it interestingand useful, but most of all, I'd
like to thank you for listening.
If you have a minute, please hitthe subscribe button and give us
a rating.
And I hope to see you again soonon another episode of sex, love
(43:55):
and couples therapy.
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's
therapist in San Francisco.
I wanna welcome you to sex loveand couple's therapy.
We all want to feel loved.
That's a universal desire, butsometimes instead of feeling
loving our relationships, feelconfusing, frustrating, and a
(00:27):
little crazy making The purposeof this podcast is to help you
clear up some of that confusionso that you and your partner can
find ways to make yourrelationship feel closer or
connect to do more loving.
So stay tuned.
We've got a lot of great stuffto talk about, and now let's go
talk about my three favoritetopics, sex love, and couples
(00:52):
therapy.
Well welcome everybody to sexlove and couples therapy.
And I couldn't be happier thanto tell you about our guest
today.
Dr.
Ari Tuckman, Ari has a uniquecombination of both an interest
in ADHD and is a certified sextherapist.
(01:15):
He's an international presenterauthor of four books on ADHD,
including his most recent one Dafter dark better sex life,
better relationship.
He has appeared on CNN andnational public radio and had
been quoted in the New Yorktimes, Boston globe, Washington
post and men's health.
And today amazingly Dr.
(01:36):
Tuckman is here with us on sexlove and couples therapy.
Ari, welcome.
Thanks so much for coming.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's my pleasure.
I'm always happy to talk aboutthis stuff.
So I'll take, I'll take mostoffers
Speaker 1 (01:49):
So I was wondering just to get started, um, you
know, becoming a certified sextherapist is no easy feat that
requires a lot of effort, a lotof study, a lot of training, a
lot of work and, and time andmoney.
And I'm wondering, and, but youalso have this very successful
(02:10):
kind of, and you're very wellknown, uh, around ADHD.
And I'm wondering kind of wherethose two things came from and
how they kind of come together.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, it, it is a good question.
So, I mean, I've been doingstuff with ADHD, especially ADHD
and adults, which is definitelyused to be a seriously
underserved population.
And now is just kind of mostlystill an underserved it's less
of an underserved, so we're notkilling it yet, but, um, you
(02:42):
know, so like a lot of what Idid for a lot of years was
really sort of focusing onadults of ADHD being more
effective in day to day life.
So just managing, you know, allthe responsibilities of
adulthood or in the case ofteens and kids, right?
So like, how do you keep trackof things?
How do you set priorities?
How do you get stuff done andstay organized?
And, you know, just all thatstuff, it's all important, it's
(03:04):
all good stuff, but kind of moreand more over, you know, those
20 years, I kind of got to apoint where I was like, you know
what?
This is op like, duh, right?
This is not just about theindividuals.
We're not, you know, we don'tlive on an island by ourselves.
We live with other people andwe're social creatures.
We, we depend on other people.
We want other people in ourlives and we want that to go
(03:28):
well.
So I became more and moreinterested in this sort of
relationship and the couplestherapy piece, as well as, you
know, family relationshipsbetween, you know, kids, teens,
and parents, but obviously a bigpart of relationships is
sexuality.
I mean, it's not the whole thinghopefully, but like that's an
important part.
(03:48):
And I kind of felt that by notaddressing that piece in a very
explicit and direct kind of away, it, I don't know, like that
I was sort of missing a prettygood lever, so to speak, to pull
, to help my individual andcouple's therapy clients kind of
do better.
Right.
Be happy or enjoy each othermore so that when the
(04:11):
inevitable, frustratingannoyances of like, I don't
know, you left the milk out andnow it's bad, right?
Like when that stuff comes up,they have a bit of, you know,
gas in the tank, a bit ofresilience, resilience to bounce
over the setback and keep going,feeling good about each other.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Yeah.
No, I think one of the thingsthat I've, I've seen, um, is
that while that sexual part ofthe relationship is so critical,
it's the last thing that couplesare often willing or interested
in talking about even, even incouple's therapy.
Yeah.
You know, I, I find that I'malways the one who has to bring
(04:52):
that up.
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Unless it's kind of the core issue that's driving
them to, to therapy, but theydon't wanna bring that up.
And most interestingly is thatto me, is that many couples
therapists shy away frombringing up sex, which I think
is just crazy.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Yeah.
I know that I was gonna, thatwas actually gonna be the
response I had is like, youknow, in defense of the couples,
a lot of couples therapistsdon't bring it up either.
Oh.
Which is, is sort of crazy.
It's like, I don't know.
It's like being a childtherapist and not bringing up
school.
Right.
You know, or something like, Idon't know.
Like, um, so yeah, I mean, theproblem is a lot of couples
(05:33):
therapists, as insane as this isto say, have like minimal
training in sexuality beyondthis sort of general obvious.
Right.
But it, but yeah.
I mean, I think it is importantand it can feel really
vulnerable and intimate and hardto discuss.
And yet, like anything, if youcan't be specific and direct
(05:58):
about it, if you can't ask forwhat you want, if you can't hear
what your partner wants withoutfreaking out about it, um, um,
you know, probably doesn't go aswell.
Right.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I think that's so true.
And I think, you know, as withall things that same
vulnerability and discomfort is,is extended to the, to the
therapist and he, or she isuncomfortable kind of bringing
these things up and talkingabout them and if they're
uncomfortable, how can theyexpect their, their clients to
(06:30):
the patients to kind of havethis comfortable discussion
about this and to normalize thisbehavior?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Yeah.
It's so true.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Even
Speaker 1 (06:40):
That,
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Even beyond that, it kind of, it potentially sends
the message that, you know, likeif you're the, the couple there
and your therapist seems a bitweird and awkward about
sexuality, it kind of reinforcesthe idea of wow.
Sex really is hard to talkabout.
Look, even this seems a bitsqueamish about it, you know,
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So true.
Yeah.
No, I completely agree with you.
But, and then, so just talkingabout sex is hard, but then
talking about masturbationmm-hmm
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Speaker 1 (07:13):
Way, it just takes it up another two searches.
It does.
So people will be willing totalk about sex if they have to,
but God, they don't want to talkabout masturbation.
Yeah.
And I have to tell you sex thetherapists, not sex therapists,
but regular therapists reallydon't want to talk about that.
Yeah.
It just is.
It's, there's too much going onthere in my experience with
(07:35):
couples, um, that question ofmasturbation really becomes is
really there, but it's notsomething that people are
talking about because often onepartner or the other is, is
masturbating and the otherpartner is unhappy about it or
has questions about it or hasfeelings about it, but they're
(07:57):
unable to talk about it.
And so everybody's a littleuncomfortable and, and, uh, at
the core part of that, and Ithink we, we were talking before
we got started, is this questionis, does my sexuality belong to
my partner?
Mm-hmm
(08:17):
marriage when we're together?
Or do I have a sexual identity,you know, separate of that or,
and sexual experience, that'sseparate of that.
And I'm not talking about, youknow, going out and sleep with,
with other people, but just doI, as a person have a sexual
identity separate from that whenI'm with my spouse or partner.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's
Speaker 1 (08:39):
A big question.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
And you know, so I think this iswhat makes talking about
masturbation so difficult, butalso I think so incredibly
interesting because right.
It, it sort of taps into thesemuch bigger, more universal sort
of dynamics and questions aboutrelationships, about how, you
(09:02):
know, a relationship is twoindividuals and it's also a
couple, right?
So it's three things and itcan't be one and it can't be
the, it can, it can't be toomuch of one and it can't be too
much of the other, you know?
So like how does that getbalanced out?
And in some ways, I mean, likethere are certain topics in life
that really become, uh, thesekind of places where you gotta
(09:25):
figure it out.
So mm-hmm,
there are some bands I reallylike that my wife finds either
at best annoying or at worst,just born offensive.
Right.
But that's fine because I justdon't put it on the speaker and
I listen on my headphones or Ilisten at the gym and it's like,
not a problem.
Mm-hmm
(09:47):
that are not quite as easy.
So things like how many kids arewe gonna have?
Right.
I can't decide to have threekids.
And my wife decides to have one.
I mean, I, if we wanna staytogether, um, in terms of money
that we spend or don't spend,right, a dollar spent is gone,
right.
You can't spend some of the, or,you know, spend it, but not
spend it.
And I think that sexuality andmasturbation it, it fits into
(10:10):
that as well.
In the sense of like, are wedoing it?
Are we not doing it?
And couples have to actuallycome to a decision, they need to
talk about it.
They need to understand eachother, understand themselves and
then come to a decision.
And I think that when theydon't, then you get either,
well, mostly what you get iskind of secret masturbation.
(10:33):
Um, I was gonna say sometimesalso what you get is like, uh,
you know, okay.
Find sort of a resentfulcompliance of, I won't do it,
but boy, am I not happy aboutit?
Yes.
Um, and you know, the problemwith secret, whatever is it it's
often found out, right?
Most of us are not beingrecruited by the CIA for our,
(10:54):
you know, stealth skills.
And if you're with someoneenough, it's only a matter of
time before, you know, somehowsomething gets discovered.
Um, yeah.
And you know, now we've got aproblem and probably with
terrible timing of when it, andhow it came out, but now we have
two problems.
The one is you were doing thisthing, the other is you were
hiding it from me, you know, soright.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
And not to, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think we
actually have three problems.
Yeah.
Because the other is that I'm, Ihave a lot of feelings about the
fact that I had to hide this.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yes,
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yes.
So I may be resentful or unhappyor whatever, uh, shameful,
because I'm maybe in, in therules of that marriage, I'm
lying to you.
Or so yeah.
I've got a lot of feelings thatI'm carrying around.
Everybody's got feelings aboutthis, but nobody's talking about
it.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, exactly.
And like everything that isn'ttalked about, like it, it makes
more problems.
Yeah.
So, but you know, this is whereit, it's hard.
I mean, the obvious advice isyou should talk about it, but
like the obvious advice also isyou should wake up at six in the
morning, go running and then youshould floss and then you should
eat kale.
Right.
(12:03):
So like the, the saying is theeasy part, but, but it's hard.
It is hard.
It's hard to have thoseconversations.
It, especially about things likesexuality that can feel so
vulnerable and that are so opento judgment, you know?
Like, is there something that'sinteresting to me that is gonna
(12:24):
freak you out and then you'regonna get judging and critical
about it.
Does it change how you see me ordoes your reaction change?
How I see you.
Right.
Um, but like that is life.
That is relationships.
Um, intimacy is not, you know,only telling me the parts of
you.
I like intimacy is also man.
There's some weird stuff aboutyou.
(12:44):
I totally don't get it, butthat's okay.
Cuz there's all the rest of youthat I really do love and
appreciate.
And you know, I can tolerateother stuff, you know, if we
handle it well.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
Yeah.
I think that's, that's reallytrue.
The interesting thing about, um,masturbation is that even
individually, maybe before I'min a relationship or when I'm a
kid or when I'm growing up, evenwhen I, if I'm not in a
relationship, there's all thisstigma and shame around this and
(13:20):
I'm wondering what your thoughtsare as to kind of what the
origin is to the shame that wecarry around us kind of
culturally around masturbating.
Why is it that it's okay to goout and sleep with men or women,
but not to kind of have to on,on your own?
(13:42):
Yeah.
I just, I just wondering whatyour thoughts are on that.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it, it'sdefinitely a true thing that,
you know, I mean, it kind ofcomes down to this idea that
sexuality is how dangerous, youknow, like there there's risk
there's, you know, problems comefrom, you know, too much
sexuality or something.
(14:05):
And I mean, it can like, ittotally can.
Mm-hmm
about sexuality, but like, let'sbe honest, people make terrible
decisions, everything.
Right.
So sex is not really unique atall.
Like it's not, um, yeah, but youknow, but it's this kind of
basic distrust of sexuality.
And I think it comes out of thisidea that, you know, LA LA, LA,
(14:29):
LA LA, I'm not thinking aboutit.
It doesn't exist.
Right.
Like this idea that you can justsort of like make it go away.
And if you don't pay attentionto it, then somehow it just sort
of doesn't it ceases to exist,which is slightly true, maybe,
but mostly not.
Um, and you know, it sort of,unfortunately it creates this
very self-fulfilling prophecythat if you can't talk about
(14:51):
sexuality, if you can't thinkabout it in a clear and complete
way, I think it is more likelyto cause problems.
Yeah.
Um, you know, so I mean, this islike a basic thing.
Um, you know, folks who grow upin areas where they don't have,
where they have marginal sex edor, you know, just for, you
(15:11):
know, ineffective and inaccuratesex ed have higher rates of STDs
and higher rates of unplannedpregnancies.
So, you know, like even justthat one basic, you know, fact I
think tells a lot.
So, you know, the thing about itis sexuality, whether alone or
was someone else, right.
It's neither good nor bad.
It's a question of what do youdo with it?
(15:33):
Are you making reasonablechoices or you're making
responsible, respectful choicesabout what you do?
Um, and I think that, you know,certainly, yeah.
I mean, I think that that'swhere it gets so complicated is
that there's a stigma about eventalking or thinking about it.
So then people don't have thelanguage or the comfort to
(15:53):
really kind of figure this out.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Right.
And I think that makes a lot ofsense.
And also, as you were talkingabout earlier in talking about
sexuality in general or inmasturbation, there's this deep
fear that who I am or what I amor what I to be will not be
acceptable to my partner.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (16:17):
And if I show my hand that it's gonna bring us, tear
us up, pull us apart rather thanhelp bring us together.
And so the safest thing is tojust keep part of who I am under
the covers kind of hidden.
And, but of course the result ofthat is that I don't get as
(16:39):
close as I want to be.
Cuz I, I crave this closeness,you know, I want to be close
with my partner to be open andconnected and attached and, and
loving.
And, but I'm afraid that if Ireally tell him or her who I am
at this dimension that like yousaid, though, I'll be judged.
(17:02):
Uh, I'll be, won't be acceptedand I'll be, you know, hurt and
disappointed that it turns out,ah, I can't have this thing I
want to have, you know?
Yeah.
And you're not the person, youknow, are you the person I
should be with, if you can'treally accept the person that I
really am.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
And it's so difficult.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
It is.
But you know, the thing isyou're putting your finger on,
this is the dilemma of intimacy.
Yeah.
You know, we, we want it and yetwe're scared of it because
there's a risk, there's a greatcomfort in having it, that you
have this thing that you feelkind of uncertain or even
shameful about and you put itout there and your partner is
(17:45):
really supportive and wonderfulabout it.
We all hope for that.
But also the reality is ifyou're, you know, once you get
past the honeymoon phase, yourpartner's not gonna be okay with
everything, you know, and somestuff that you bring up might
tweak something in them fortheir own reasons.
So, you know, so real intimacyonce you've been around a while,
(18:10):
doesn't involve, you know, like,um, kind of validating
everything that is, that's afalse premise like that won't
happen.
Um, but that's okay.
You know, like that realintimacy comes from the ability
to be clear about who you areand to be able to self validate,
to say like, you know what I, Ifeel okay about this.
(18:31):
Even if my partner doesn't, youknow, so again, back to the kind
of dumb example of the bands, I,some of the bands I listen to,
like, I feel totally fine.
Like I understand all thecomplexities and the nuances and
why she has her concerns, but Ifeel totally fine about the
bands I listen to
Um, but you know, this, thisalso then becomes, there's kind
(18:53):
of a distinction here betweenwhat do we feel and what do we
do?
So if I'm cranking up music thatshe hates, right.
That's not really respectful.
Um, I think by the same token,if she says, I forbid you from
listening to them, even byyourself, that's also not
respectful.
Right.
Right.
And the problem is, you know,mandates tend to result in at
(19:16):
best resentful compliance and atworst, you know, secret cheating
of whatever sort.
So, um, you know, so this iswhere it gets kind of
complicated.
And I think that, you know, ifyou're sort of, if you're
masturbating unplugged, so tospeak right, where you're, it's
just you and your fantasies, youknow, who's to know, right.
Like no one can prove anythingof what's going on in your head.
(19:39):
Now this thing kind of gets intothe porn topic.
And I can't believe we've almosthit 20 minutes without bringing
up porn in the topic ofmasturbation, but, but good
kudos to us, right.
Because masturbation and porn,not this same thing like they,
right.
Those need to be two separateconversations.
But, um, you know, the thingabout it is if your partner
finds your browser history,mm-hmm,
(20:01):
sudden something is out on thetable right now, what your
partner thinks is on the tablemight not be the same thing as
what, you know, you are sort offocusing on, but like there,
there it is right there in a waythat's very hard to deny.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
But I think that I, I totally agree, um, that they are
not at all the same thing, butthey often come up together in
discussion between partners andyou know, this desire of one
partner to con control.
The masturbation of the otherpartner is really an interesting
(20:36):
phenomena.
Mm-hmm
And to me, and I'm wonderingwhat you think is that it's
driven by the sense that I'm notenough.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
That if you have to do that, that really means that
I'm not enough for you.
Mm-hmm
And that, that is such anuncomfortable feeling to have of
not being enough, that the way Ideal with it is to forbid I'm
gonna manage it.
I'm gonna date.
And I'm going to make, which iswhat I really hate.
(21:11):
And I see happen.
I'm gonna make masturbation aform of cheating of infidelity.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
If you have to look at naked guys or naked girls,
then that's cheating.
That's really an and a extensionof this feeling of I'm not
enough, but it takes, it's ahard discussion working with
couples to help them look atthat.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah.
Well, and I think that, and Ithink that this is a really, I
think it's a great example.
That again goes way beyond justthis topic, but is really so
sort of present in many, manytopics with couples, but, you
know, so the question then is,so here is a thing that is
happening right.
In this case masturbation.
(21:59):
But, but what does it mean?
You know, so, so right.
You know, often, like you said,often they kind of first go to,
is this means I'm not for oursexual shared sexual experience.
Isn't enough.
That's an assumption.
Now, if your partner says,honey, the reason why I is
because you are not enough forme, or you're not hot enough or
(22:19):
you're not good enough or someright.
If they actually say that as areason, then okay.
Deal with that as a reason.
But my guess is probably not.
Right.
Yeah.
Almost never.
When I hear, when I have clientswho talk about masturbating,
almost never like ever, I don'tknow, has it happened once?
(22:39):
I don't know where they're like,yeah.
The reason why I is because I,my partner's not really that
good in bed.
Right.
That's not the thing thathappens.
So, so before we go kind arunning to conclusions, let's
actually find out like, stopmm-hmm,
head back on, find out actually,what is going on with your
partner?
Why do they do it?
(23:01):
How is it different from sharedexperiences?
What does it all mean?
Um, which is just goodrelationship advice of every
very kind, you know.
Um, so, you know, it's kind oflike the idea of like understand
the situation before you figureout what to do about it.
Because if you don't understandthe situation, you're gonna
apply the wrong solutions so tospeak.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Yeah.
So I'm an EFT therapist and anEFT.
What we talk about is temp EMP,which is that there's a trigger
mm-hmm,
have an emotional response tothat, but then there's also this
big part where I make meaning ofit.
Yeah.
Is I have a story that I tellabout what this means.
(23:46):
Sure.
And then I have this reaction orthis protective reaction, but I
think what you're saying, and Ithink is very true is we have to
get down to that story ofunderstanding, what do we see as
the meaning of this for both ofus okay.
For both partners so that we canreally get down to what, what is
(24:06):
actually happening as opposed tokind of this, this story I make
up on my own.
Well, if he's doing that, thatmeans I'm not enough or we're
not enough.
Yeah.
Or he doesn't love me or I'm notdesirable.
And, but I agree, it's, it's,it's almost never about the set
is like, it's just the same way.
(24:27):
There's this kind of belief,this myth that people cheat have
, it are unfaithful because thesex at home isn't good enough or
frequent enough and well, maybe5% at the time or 3% of the time
that might be the core issue.
(24:48):
Right.
But no, no,
It's not about, about that.
And, and the same thing here.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Yeah.
Well, and the, you know, so thething of it is if, you know, if,
if you have the wrongunderstanding for what's
happening, you know, you're,you're gonna wind up with the
wrong, like I said, you're gonnawind up with the wrong
solutions.
Right?
Yeah.
So, you know, it's really hard,really, really hard for these
kind of sensitive vulnerablesubjects to actually like calm
(25:22):
your response enough to reallyactually be able to hear what
you're part is saying.
But, you know, part of it alsois it's, it can be hard for the
partner to reveal it partiallybecause of their own shame and
discomfort with it.
Or maybe they're not a hundredpercent clear inside themselves
about, you know, what are theydoing and why, and what does it
mean and what doesn't it and allthat.
(25:45):
Um, you know, but it also kindof become this thing.
If they, if the partner who gotcaught is concerned about their
other partner's response,they're probably gonna be less
honest.
Or as I say, you know, you can'tpunish honesty and expect the
truth, you know?
So if the, if the partner whocatches someone masturbating
(26:06):
either blows a up and gets angryor falls apart into tears and
you know, is kind of beatingthemselves up.
Both of those, nobody wantsthat, you know?
So that is likely to shut thepartner down, perhaps lead to
sort of false promises.
I'll never do it again, whichthey probably mean at the
moment.
Sometimes they're lying andthey're like, no, I don't mean
(26:26):
it.
I fricking know I'm gonna dothis again.
I'm just, I just don't want todeal with you right now.
But like, but you know,probably, you know, if you're
not a sociopath, right.
You mean it when you say it.
Right.
But you know, it's like if youtold your wife, okay, that from
now on, I'm going to every day,I'm waking up at 6:00 AM going
for a run, right?
Like, no, you're not right.
(26:47):
Let's all be honest.
That's not, don't like, youshouldn't say it and she
shouldn't believe it.
So, um, but you know, the otherside of this is especially in
couples that have kind of abigger, desired discrepancy as
it's called.
In other words, one person wouldlike to four times a week, the
other is more than happy withones.
It creates this terrible, no winsituation that either the one,
(27:10):
the higher desire partner iseither feels deprived all the
time, which is a setup fortrouble or worse.
Maybe, um, the lower desirepartner feels like they're
having sex.
They don't want right.
The best way to kill your sexlife is have sex.
You don't want, you know, andthen the hire desire partner
knows the low desire partner.
(27:30):
It's only showing up cuz theyhave to.
Yeah.
Right.
It's like, it's like the goingto the DMV to get your license
renewed.
Right.
Like, oh, that that's as excitedas you are about this.
Great.
Um, so, you know, I think to beable to have an honest
discussion and you know, I thinkthat this is often a thing that
doesn't happen, right?
(27:51):
Like this thing, if you cheatedon me, well, cheating implies
that there was a mutualunderstanding and agreement and
maybe there was, but you knowwhat, often there isn't right
there.
Isn't there hasn't been adiscussion.
Did they cheat?
I don't know.
It feels like it, but yourpartner may not feel the same
way.
So like, let's be clear on whatare we doing?
(28:12):
How does this all fit together?
Where do your, your desires andmy desires, where do they
intersect and where do theydiverge?
And really, really be honest.
And don't make agreements.
You can't keep
Speaker 1 (28:22):
As you, you, you kind of started that, that discussion
right now with, you know, let'shave an honest discussion, but
I'm wondering how do you, as a,as a sex therapist, as, as a
couple's therapist, help yourcouples learn how to have an
honest discussion.
I mean, what, how can we helppeople learn how to actually
talk about this instead of hidefrom it?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's about, it'sabout really being able to be
honest and vulnerable and to, tospeak from your own experience.
Mm-hmm
get curious about your partner'sexperience and a good way to
have void that is to talk ingeneralities or to make sweeping
(29:10):
generalizations.
All men, all women, all porn,all master, like that's a great
way to not talk about yourself.
You know what, it doesn't matterwhat other couples do.
It doesn't matter.
Like unless you're a policymaker or a something, right.
Like it does, does it matterwhat society is doing?
Um, you are two people togetherin one relationship.
(29:32):
It only matters what the two ofyou are doing.
Talk about yourself, right.
Be clear about how you feelabout what is interesting, what
feels uncomfortable.
Definitely the reasons why let'sget into the whys of this let's
really, really understand thesituation before we have any
discussion about what we'redoing about it.
(29:52):
Mm-hmm
you know, we can't control whatour partner feels or thinks or
design, but we do have some, youknow, say on what they do or at
least we have some say on whatwe do, you know?
So, you know, I'm asking you,like, this makes me feel really
uncomfortable.
I'm asking that you don't dothis kind of a thing.
(30:15):
Um, right.
Okay.
You know, um, maybe, and thenfor the other partner either to
say, you know what, okay, fine.
Yeah.
I'll, I'll do that.
You know, like I accept the factthat I won't be listened to some
bands, you know, on the Sonos,in the kitchen in the morning.
Um, but, but you know, in otherways to say like, you know what,
like, I can't like, no, I can't,I, I can't, I'm not gonna agree
(30:38):
to that.
Like, I will not feel good aboutit.
I feel like I'm selling self outand I don't think I'm gonna be
able to stick to it.
So like let's again, no falseagreements back to the drawing
board.
Let's talk some more.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah.
No, I think that's very right.
If you don't mind already, I'mgonna press, I'm gonna push a
little bit on you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Do
Speaker 1 (30:56):
It.
How do we get people to bewilling?
Or how do we help people to bewilling to start that of talking
about themselves?
Mm-hmm
kind of open up, begin to openup those that way, um, and take
and take that risk, the, thatvulnerable risk.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
So this is a cost of doing business.
If you wanna be in a satisfyinglong term relationship, this is
what it takes on this topic andmany others.
But if you can do it well onthis topic, you will carry those
skills to whatever the othertopics are.
(31:37):
So, you know, if you want anongoing, satisfying relationship
in general, if you want anongoing, satisfying sex life,
these are the conversations thatyou need to be able to have.
They're not fun all the time.
And, you know, we wish we didn'thave to, but like, this is
adulthood.
This is what really goodrelationships require.
(31:59):
But the good news is there's alot of benefit for it.
You know, it's like after you gofor a run, you don't always
wanna beforehand.
Hopefully you feel okay, fiveminutes in, but you know, like
you're better off for it.
You know, like that is a goodthing.
And all the rest of your day andall the rest of your week is
better for having done it.
So, you know, so I think toreally kind of remind yourself
(32:21):
of what the benefit is on theother side, even if you're just
sort of taking it on faith.
Um, but you know, like if, as acouple you keep kind of crashing
into the same rocks, which isoften the case.
Um, I don't know, like it mightbe that seeing a therapist
together can, you know, help youguys learn some better ways to
(32:42):
kind of manage the process alittle differently so that, you
know, those conversations gobetter.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Right?
No, I totally agree with that.
One of the ways I frame thiswith my couples is that one of
my jobs, or one of my primaryjob freely is to help them have
difficult conversations thatthey're having trouble doing on
their own.
Yes.
Cause as you said, they keepcrashing into that same rock.
(33:10):
And so we're, we're having adifficult conversation together.
The three of us and my job ishelp keep them present.
And here in that conversation,because it's so uncomfortable
that it's kind of like a peoplewant to escape or they, so
they'll, they'll either try notto have it or they'll, they'll
(33:34):
put up what I call Shaf, youknow, something to distract.
Yeah, sure.
So they'll, they'll, they'll,they'll throw something up.
That's totally unrelated, butjust let's, let's go do let's
you know, it's like, let's golook over here.
It's kinda like this direction
the three of us working veryslowly through a difficult
(33:54):
conversation.
Yeah.
And it, and everybody feels kindof uncomfortable, but like you
said, really better for theprocess.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah.
And I think I'm gonna highlighta word you use slowly.
Mm.
Bad conversations happenquickly.
Right.
Move quickly, betterconversations happen much more
slowly.
Right.
In that, you know, a couplewho's been around for a while.
Right?
Like they move quickly throughthe bad conversation cuz we all
(34:27):
know the script.
Right.
You know like, oh this is how itgoes here.
I say this.
And then you say that, and thenI do this and then you do that,
right?
Like you don't have to have theconversation cuz you already
know how it's gonna go.
So the trick is to really,really, really slow it down to,
down to call a timeout.
If you need it with, you know,the implicit agreement that you
(34:47):
will indeed come back, timeoutis not forever.
It's just for now.
Um, and to really try tounderstand the situation in a
better way to really kind ofkeep in mind what are my better
ways of responding?
Cause we all have the ease E badways.
Those are pretty ingrained.
Um, mm-hmm
kind of hang in there and findout what's going on with
(35:10):
yourself.
Find out what's going on withyour partner and to not read in
what isn't actually there.
You know?
And that's a lot of where we getourselves into trouble is we, we
start making assumptions thatare, are really not actually all
that true.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
And I think, you know, in terms on a functional
level, like you said abouttaking breaks, this isn't a
problem that we have to solve.
It's like, okay, so last nightmy wife and I are working out,
you know?
Okay.
So some issue around taxes andyou know, so we had, we had to
solve that problem.
How big a check are we gonnawrite and what, from what
(35:45):
account?
Okay.
Mm-hmm
couples are talking about theirsex life, this is like an
ongoing conversation.
This is not let's solve thisproblem.
Come to an answer.
This is like, oh, I didn't knowthat.
Let's talk about that.
Let's you know, that curiosityand that slowness, like you
talked about is so hard to do,but so beneficial to, to see
(36:08):
this as, oh, let's slow thisdown.
What does that really mean?
What you just said?
Oh, I didn't know that.
Yeah.
That is
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Especially about sex, which is so especially
Speaker 1 (36:20):
About sex.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
It's so loaded.
There's so much kind of, I don'tknow, just sort of like implicit
knowledge about it, you know?
Yeah.
And then by implicit, what Imean is not always right.
But you know, all these kind ofsocietal messages, so it's like,
oh, I know what that means.
Do you no seriously, like, doyou know what that means?
And you know, there's alsosomething there of like having
(36:44):
your partner really sort ofquestion some stuff mm-hmm
Right.
You know, what does this mean?
Does it mean anything thatthat's worth knowing?
Does it not like what's the dealhere to really, really kind of
understand it.
Um, and you know, nobody's gonnachallenge you to understand
(37:05):
yourself and what you do morethan your partner is.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Yes.
Yes.
And my experience is also thatpeople besides wanted to solve
it, they want to bring it downto, well, what do we do?
What, you know, oh, so you wantme to, to do this?
Or you want me, you know, or Iwant this behavior in bed and
nine times outta 10, that's notreally what's going on.
What I really want to do is Iwant to talk to you about how it
(37:30):
feels to have sex with you, howI feel about our sex life, how
it feels like for us to betogether, you know, how I feel
about my own sex, sexuality andthe ways in which I'm kind of
happy or not happy.
It's not, not about we do movenumber 12 more often.
That's not the deal.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Right.
Well, I think it's also reallyimportant, you know, like, I
don't know, what does movenumber 12 mean?
You know, why is it interesting?
What is it about that versussomething else that seems
interesting to you or thatfeels, you know, like
uncomfortable to the otherperson?
Um, you know, because again,like that's the place where we
(38:08):
make tons of assumptions reallyquickly.
Oh, I know what that means.
Well, but, but do you, do you,um, yeah.
Yeah.
So, and that, I don't know, likein some ways I think it's that
willingness to explorewillingness to kind of let some
things evolve that keeps life in.
If you're gonna have sex withthe same person for like 40
(38:30):
years, you know, like a, alittle bit of a variety is
probably a helpful thing.
Um, you know, or otherwise youget into, this is kind of one of
my favorite lines, you know,from the, the lake great Robin
Williams where he said, youknow, I don't know what the big
deal is about same sex marriage,cuz you know, anybody who's been
married for a while knows it'sall the same sex anyway.
(38:55):
Right.
That's true in some way, likethere's the part of it.
That's kind of sad and there's apart of it.
That's actually kind of cool.
Right?
The part that's sad is if you'renot able to have these
discussions, it is the same sexand let's be honest.
It's not that much moreinteresting, you know, becomes
less interesting or over time ifyou're having exactly the same
sex every single time.
(39:16):
Um, the part that's kind of coolis it may be the same sex in a
sort of, I don't know, in thesense of what the camera might
capture, if you know what Imean, in terms of the acts that
are performed or something, butkind of emotionally or
interpersonally, it can be adifferent experience in it
physically.
It's a lot of the same kinds ofthings, you know, it's sort of
(39:38):
like, how do you show up in thatsexual experience?
What do you bring to it and howdo you and your partner
interact, cuz you can absolutelyhave sex with another person and
have like very little going onbetween.
It's like, you know, parallelplay.
It's like two people in the sameroom, but they really, really
connected and open and, andintimate.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
No, that's so true.
That's a great point.
Well, Ari, I, I wanna berespectful of your time and, and
start, uh, wrapping up cuz thisis, but I have to tell you, this
has been the fastest 40 minutes.
This has been such aninteresting discussion.
It just flew the time, just flewby, but I want to make a make,
take a second to make sure tomention kind of you actually
(40:21):
have, um, four books around, um,ADHD.
I mean one's a, one's a clinicalbook mm-hmm
just gonna mention the titles.
The most recent one is ADHDafter dark, better sex life and
better relationships.
Then this other one isunderstanding your brain, get
more done.
The ADHD executive functionworkbook, and lastly, more
(40:45):
attention, less deficit successstrategies for adults with ADHD.
And I just want to kind of, um,suggest to kind of listeners
that if you have a ADHD or, oryou have, um, a partner or a kid
or a friend and they're and yousee them struggling, um, that
these books are extraordinaryresources to helping people live
(41:06):
more successful, morecomfortable lives with while
accepting and actually throughaccepting and embracing and
understanding kind of how theirbrain works.
It's not like their brain isbad.
It's like, oh, I've gottaunderstand how, how my brain
works.
And if I understand that, then Ican make all, all kinds of
wonderful decisions andstrategies for managing.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah.
I mean I'm a firm believer ineducation and maybe cuz I'm a
little bit impatient by which, Imean I'm more than a little bit
impatient.
Um,
Right?
Smart people have come beforeyou people have figured out
really good ideas.
Don't figure it out the hardway.
Um, and you know, the wholepurpose of a diagnosis or a
(41:48):
label of any kind is it helps usunderstand situation, which
narrows us down to the thingsthat are gonna be most likely to
be helpful.
And yeah, you know, like mybooks are full of things that I
hope to be helpful.
There's lots of other good stuffout there.
Um, you know, the national ADHDorganization, chad.org, C H a
(42:10):
d.org, um, you know, there'slots of good inform, do not
struggle figuring it outyourself.
So, you know, for the personwith ADHD, for the partner also
equally, or if you're, you know,you got a kid, by the way, if
you have a kid with ADHD, goodchance, one of the parents has
ADHD.
So you know, a lot of parentsget a lot of adults get
(42:30):
diagnosed through their kids.
Um, that's interesting, butyeah, I mean, you know, take
this information, use it well sothat you're both happier.
And by the way, if you're thenon ADHD partner, you're not
listening to that blog orpodcast or, or reading the blog
or listen to the podcast orwebinar or book as a favor to
your partner, you're doing it asa favor to yourself.
(42:53):
You'll both be happier.
So, so yeah, so I appreciate youbringing this up cuz like I'm
all about knowledge andempowerment.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
And I think that the point you just made was so
important.
You're not doing it as a favorto them.
You're doing it as a favor toyourself.
This is how you express and showboth love and connection, but
also how you are more successfuland HAPPI you're in that
relationship that you have withthat person.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
And how you support them.
Well, Ari Tuckman, thank you somuch.
This has been just great.
I really appreciate the time andthe discussion it's been
wonderful.
I, and um, I wish you all thebest you take care.
Thanks again.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
All right, bye bye.
Well, that's our episode fortoday.
I hope you found it interestingand useful, but most of all, I'd
like to thank you for listening.
If you have a minute, please hitthe subscribe button and give us
a rating.
And I hope to see you again soonon another episode of sex, love
(43:55):
and couples therapy.
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