April 22, 2022 • 37 mins
Why is it so hard to say "I forgive you"? Is it really possible to forgive someone who's hurt you? If you forgive does that mean that you condone bad behavior? What are the steps to forgiveness?
In this fascinating discussion with Dr. Fred Luskin, the world-recognized expert on forgiveness, we'll learn the steps to forgiveness and why it's important to forgive. And, most important, how forgiveness actually frees us from the prison of our own anger.
Here's a link to:
- Dr. Luskin's excellent book on forgiveness
- His 9 point forgiveness process
- My article on 5 Steps to a Real Apology
My name is Jacob Brown, and I'm a Couples Therapist in San Francisco. To find out more about me:
Thanks for listening and please leave us a review, comment, or rating.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's
therapist in San Francisco.
I wanna welcome you to sex loveand couple's therapy.
We all want to feel loved.
That's a universal desire, butsometimes instead of feeling
loving our relationships, feelconfusing, frustrating, and a
(00:27):
little crazy making the purposeof this podcast is to help you
clear up some of that confusionso that you and your partner can
find ways to make yourrelationship feel closer, more
connect, to do more loving.
So stay tuned.
We've got a lot of great stuffto talk about, and now let's go
talk about my three favoritetopics, sex love, and couples
(00:52):
therapy.
So welcome to sex love andcouple therapy.
And today we have a really,really interesting topic to
explore the question offorgiveness.
Forgiveness is such aninteresting and complex topic,
(01:12):
and it's something that comes upin therapy and, and between
partners and couples all thetime and today to help us
explore that, that topic.
I have Dr.
Luskin Fred is the director ofthe Stanford university
forgiveness projects, a seniorconsultant in health promotion
at Stanford university and aprofessor at the Institute for
transpersonal psychology, aswell as an affiliate faculty
(01:35):
member of the greater goodscience center.
Fred is best known, I thinkperhaps for the kind of the
Bible on for forgiveness that hewrote called for forgive for
good, a proven per prescriptionfor health and happiness, as
well as stress for good 10proven life skills for health
and happiness.
So I'd like to welcome today,Dr.
(01:56):
Fred Luskin, Fred, thanks somuch for joining me.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You know, before we get into forgiveness itself, I
wonder are in my experience,people choose dissertation
topics or research areas, bothfor the intellectual curiosity
or the interest in a topic, butoften there's also something
kind of personal that draws themto the area.
And I'm wondering what drew youto the topic of forgiveness?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
A few things, um, always had a longstanding
interest in spiritual practicesin life purpose in like, what
are we doing here?
And found that the I'm gonna saythe spiritual barely religious
(02:44):
and answers were the mostsatisfying to me.
And so when I had to come upwith a dissertation topic, it
was in the nineties when therewas a, a modest reconciliation
between science and religion.
And so I wanted to show that avirtue like from the spiritual
(03:07):
end could be shown throughscience to be valuable on the
material end.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Ah,
Speaker 2 (03:14):
And, and when I started to do this, there was
almost none there, there were ahandful of, of studies, nothing
on compassion or love or hope orgratitude or anything.
And I chose forgiveness becauseI couldn't choose compassion.
Like compassion was the firstquality that came to my mind,
(03:34):
but there were no studies oncompassion.
Interesting.
And even at Stanford, as adoctoral student, you can't
create a field.
So I chose forgiveness becauseat the time I did my
dissertation, there were threestudies in the domain of
forgiveness.
So I wasn't inventing a field.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
That's so interesting.
I really appreciate that idea offinding that it intersection of
science and spirituality.
It's so interesting also becausethat's changed so much since you
started that in the, in thenineties and that's now become
quite a huge field inunderstanding that
neurophysiology and how ourbodies respond to kind of
(04:16):
mindfulness and meditation.
The, these are really bigchanges that have happened in
our field.
While, for example, I'm an EFTtherapist and the whole question
changed in orientation towardskind of relational that we exist
in a relation with anotherperson.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Of course,
Speaker 1 (04:34):
It's hard to believe that that was a radical notion.
Not that many years ago,
Speaker 2 (04:38):
It's still somewhat of a radical notion that we have
responsibilities to other peoplethat other people feelings
matter as much as ours do thatour humanity is defined by being
empathic to others and generous.
I don't think that's that big inthe merit and family world.
(05:00):
It's still more are about whatthe self wants.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I think that's, that's very true.
And, and I think that manytherapists may, you know, even
couple therapists havedifficulties.
They wanna make it verytransactional.
They shy away from the emotionsthat come up rather than seeing
these emotions as thecommunication, the vehicle for
exchanging connection andattachment.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Of course,
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I I'd like to kind of talk a little bit about
forgiveness.
And I guess my first question isthat forgiveness is really, to
me, quite a complex concept.
And I wonder from your point ofview, what does forgiveness
mean?
What does it actually mean toforgive someone?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Um, you free yourself of the burden of your resentment
or self pity from not being atpeace with your own life.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
That's such an important perspective.
And I think when I was readingyour materials, it's woven
throughout is this idea that inforgiving, let's say my partner,
I'm really doing that as anexercise for my own benefit.
You know, I'm not, it may bealso for the benefit of the
(06:18):
relationship, but I'm not doingit to change him or her.
I'm doing it to let, let's go ofthat pain that I feel that I
carry with me.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I'm not, I'm not sure it's that explicitly
transactional, as much as werecognize that a at some level
we made up the grudge mm-hmm that it simply
events and people, and we mademeaning out of it.
And we held onto a certain kindof meaning that imprisoned us.
(06:53):
So what we're doing is taking akey and letting ourselves out of
a prison that we created
Speaker 1 (07:00):
And how do we do that?
Cuz we, cuz you're absolutelyright.
We've, let's say there's aninjury, you know, and the, the
typical one for forgivenessmight be infidelity, but it
could be, um, so many otherthings that happen in, in a
relationship, small, large, andwe develop that GRU.
We make meaning this, that, thathe or she didn't come home or sh
(07:22):
they were flirting with someoneor actually had an affair with
someone or let us down in someway.
And we make meaning and makethat grudge from this meaning,
what does it mean?
Or how do I let go of thatgrudge?
How do I, how do I look at thatevent and change to the meeting
that I've given to that event?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I mean, there's a number of things.
First has to be, um, someresponsibility for oneself that,
um, the other day I was coachingan old student who, um, was
really upset because of oldpartners in fidelity.
(08:02):
And, and I, I, I told them thatthe biggest error that they made
was thinking that the partnersinfidelity caused their
excessive emotional reaction andthat they were two separate
things, right?
The partner was unfaithful andthat's clearly true.
And you had an excessive,emotional reaction, which is
(08:25):
yours to deal with.
And you, at this point, it hasnothing to do with the
infidelity.
It's it's, you have a problem.
It's like you have a growth onyour arm or you have diabetes
and, and you need to take careof your problem, which is
excessive reactivity tosomething that happened in the
(08:48):
past.
That doesn't excuse thebehavior, but it, it puts the
attention where it can actuallyhelp.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It's interesting.
You SA talked about not excusingthe behavior.
And I think in my experience,working with clients that line
or that misconception, thatforgiveness is also condoning or
accepting.
And I just gonna read there'sone quick little thing that you
(09:17):
wrote when you talked about acase history with a, a patient
named Dolores, you say shesuffered under the misconception
that forgiving skip meantcondoning his actions, or it
meant forgetting what hadhappened.
And I think that that's, that'sso important and such a powerful
statement because I see thatagain and again, with my couples
(09:42):
where the barrier to forgivenessis if I forgive him or her, that
means what, what they did wasokay.
Can you talk a, a little bitabout how that forgiveness
doesn't mean condoning or, and Idon't have forget if I forgive,
Speaker 2 (09:57):
If it's okay.
You don't need to forgive it.
It's that simple.
So if a behavior is okay, it'sokay.
So just move on.
There's not, there's no issuethere.
The problem is there arebehaviors that we know are not
okay.
Right.
And that's where forgivenesscomes into place.
So it's just mental nonsensewhen they tell you, um, well,
(10:20):
you know, if I forgive him, itmakes an okay.
Nothing makes drowning a kid.
Okay.
But you can still forgive it.
And, and nothing makes, youknow, any of the really horrible
things that human beings do.
Okay.
So it's, it's just not nonsenseto distract themselves from the
work of forgiveness, which is,there are certain things in this
(10:43):
life that certainly are likeCarly, wrong, spiritually,
wrong, interpersonally, wrong.
Just, they're just not inharmony and we have to deal with
them.
That's one.
So there's an acceptance ofthat.
Like mm-hmm,, Ihave to deal with these
experiences and I can stay miredin anger or resentment of self
(11:09):
pity because some of thathappened to me, or I can
recognize that here's anexperience that wasn.
Okay.
But I still have to wake uptomorrow morning and figure out
what to do with that.
So the okayness is somewhatirrelevant, but let's just say,
it's not okay.
(11:30):
What makes forgiveness sopowerful is we don't lose our
moral compass and we don't loseour ability to do concern, but
we recognize that our beingupset about something endlessly
doesn't improve either thesituation for us or anybody else
(11:50):
in this world.
It just keeps us stuck.
We're not, we're not making agreat case for, you know, you
know, the American, whatever.
We're simply being cranky humanbeings.
And, and, and, and we make itseem like so powerful and
righteous, and it's none ofthose things.
The second thing is, um, um,it's, again, it's a non, it's a,
(12:15):
it's a topology.
You can't forget bad things,
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Right?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
So it's stupid to even talk about it.
What you can do is remember itdifferently.
And that's what forgiveness is.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I like that because I also read one more quick thing
that you wrote forgiving.
Someone does not mean forgettingor appro of the hurtful event in
the past.
Rather it means letting go ofyour hurt and anger and not
making someone else endlesslyresponsible for your emotional
wellbeing.
(12:49):
And I think that's such animportant point that, and yet,
and it sounds so simple rightnow, as we talk about it and so
clear and so obvious, but thatis also so difficult for, for
people to sometimes rememberthat I am forgiving this person,
that's this, this bad behaviorso that I can get on with my
(13:13):
life and I can move forward.
Doesn't mean that I, I have tostay friends with them.
It doesn't mean that I have tostay married to them, but it
does mean that I get the freedomto move forward with my life,
rather than being stuck in thatrepetitive cycle.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
When we were contemplating all this, the, the
question that came up is what doyou do with dead people?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So if they're dead, does that mean you can't move
on?
Mm-hmm cause if, if some of thethings you were saying were
true, it's up, time's up, butclearly with dead people, you're
making the whole thing up, causethey're gone well, that it's all
a mental thing with forgiveness.
And, and it also shows to me howpoorly you're being educated as
(14:04):
a therapist, that forgivenessbeing, if not, I'm not gonna say
the most important, butcertainly among the top five
human qualities for healing, thefact that it's ignored in
therapeutic training, right.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Just,
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Just shows the inadequacy of it.
And the I'm gonna say the hardego level of not wanting to
admit that when not dissenterthe universe, so crappy things
happen and therapists make theirmoney off of people, endlessly
exploring their woundedness
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So, so forgiveness is not good for business in that
way.
You know, it's no different thanthe doctor who prescribes pills
and not exercise because that's,that's how they profit
Speaker 1 (14:55):
In my graduate program.
I don't remember spending anytime on the concept of
forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Exactly.
And I didn't either.
I have, so I have 3000 for anMFT and then 3000 for a PhD.
So I have 6,000 supervisedhours.
I'm gonna say one of them wasspent on forgiveness and
compassion combined.
(15:24):
And so that's an inadequateeducation.
And so therapists are not beingwell trained.
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
No, I agree.
and I think thatwe, as a society, don't value
the concept of forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
In fact, we see forgiveness as somehow being
weak.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I know because it's actually too strong for people
to handle.
Yeah.
It's saying that really crappythings might have happened to me
and, and having worked with allsorts of horror in this world.
Right.
Really crappy things do happen.
(16:05):
Do
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Happen?
No question about it.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
No, BSing that for a second.
No.
So it is tough right there tojust hold that.
Then the even harder question iswho's responsible from my
experience now, is it them?
Or is it me?
(16:28):
Well, both of those realizationstake a lot of guts and strength
to say really bad things hashappened.
And I'm now responsible for mylife, which includes that
painful thing.
Right?
Then you work on the story thatyou tell about what all this is
about.
(16:48):
And so those three things take alot of work and a lot of effort
and a lot of maturity.
So of course they're not gonnabe easily promoted.
They're high level skills.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
They're very, they are high level skills.
And they do take a lot of workin that because a lot goes into
that concept.
The ability to forgive a lotgoes into understanding kind of
my relationship to what happenedboth before and after my
relationship I feelings and howI've responded to this.
And I, I even, it, it comes upin a broader kind of social
(17:21):
setting or cultural setting.
When we think about countrieslike South Africa and, you know,
truth and reconciliation orRwanda after the genocide or
Wanda mm-hmm thathere we've had whole nations
find a path not to forget, butto forgive
Speaker 2 (17:45):
You see what a difference it makes.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yes.
It's a, it's, it's such apowerful, um, experience.
It's such a powerful changeagent in the world to be able to
forgive
Speaker 2 (17:58):
One practice that we, that we all can do.
And even as therapists is justsimply ask clients, um, like
what's keeping you for, I beinghappy now, right?
Like what are you holding ontowith blame that stops you from
seeing the beautiful world thatyou're in right this moment and
(18:20):
you'll hear their grudges.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Right there.
Yeah.
My mother didn't love me.
My ex was a bomb.
Um, my identity group is, ismistreated, whatever it is, but
you see right there that they'retelling you that they're
sacrificing their happiness tohold onto a grudge.
They won't like to hear that,but you can see it right there.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Right.
And there's, there's this valuethat we place, I think on
righteous anger,
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Like it's really helpful short term to be
righteously angry.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
The problem is, is if you're righteously angry for a
decade,
Speaker 2 (19:02):
It's just anger.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
It's just anger.
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
And, and you know enough about the brain that the
brain on anger does not makegood decisions.
And so that that's not the brainyou want guiding your ship.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
So what do you think makes it so difficult for
people, especially Americans,let's say to even consider the
concept of forgiveness.
I mean, why do people, when youbring it up to them, at least
initially until they understandit more kind of rebel against it
and push back?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, they're not being asked to very often.
So that's part of it.
And there's very littleeducation, as we mentioned, even
from therapists aroundforgiveness.
So it's, it's not an equalplayer at the table.
Mm-hmm, but thebiggest is the sense of self
(19:56):
wants to hold onto its dominionand its resentments for all the
ways the world didn't honor thatsense of self.
So, you know, it, the simple,the car cut me a off the
girlfriend dis to me, the, Idon't know all the ways that our
(20:18):
centrality in our own narrativeis challenged.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So that's a great way of looking at it that the sense
of self holds on to this orresist the forgiveness because
that diminishes their sense ofSan neutrality and power.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
That's it.
And it doesn't want, it doesn'twanna see reality, which is we
don't have that much power andwe're quite vulnerable.
So we create grievances andanger and all these other things
to obscure reality.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
That's so interesting.
And, and to use the term, I, Iapologize.
I've forgotten exactly the termnow.
Um, but it's the kind of theequivalent of unreasonable
expectations,
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Unenforceable rules.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
There we go.
Thank you very much that one ofthe things that leads us into
this, the meaning we make andthe anger that comes up over the
, over these terrible thingsthat happen to us and to others
in the world is that there's a,that ego sense of self wants to
be able to enforce some codebehavior.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
And I also think that there's a belief that if I can't
enforce that behavior, if thatbehavior, if goes on, it says
something about me in, in that Iget upset because if, if he does
that to me, or she does that to,it's saying something about who
I am and my power and my kind ofworth.
(21:53):
And so we reject strongly thatidea that I, I am, I can't
control their behavior.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I mean, I, I might emphasize the fear of
vulnerability more.
Hmm.
I that's what I think, I mean,that's just my take on it that
we really don't wanna recognizehow uncertain and we are and how
much threat there is.
And like, at the other level, wedon't wanna recognize how much
(22:26):
we have to be grateful for andhow much goodness there is.
Cuz the ego wants to stay in avery narrow, like controlling
position.
And so it both asserts its falseauthority and refuses to honor
all the goodness that it'sgiven.
(22:46):
I mean the Buddhist have thatwonderful practice of, you know,
just think of a something youeat and just think of the
thousands of people's labor whohad to do something to get that
apple right in front of you.
Like you, you, we have no cluewhat the reducing valves that
(23:07):
we're putting on this world andoh, unforgiveness is simply the
result of those reducing valves.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
And I think that, that, that concept of gratitude
Yeah.
And recognizing kind of where wefit into the chain of the world
and gratitude for all the thingsthat exist in our life is
another incredibly powerful andincredibly underutilized power
in, in, in healing and infinding happiness in the world.
(23:39):
But again, it's something thatpeople at first blush often push
back sense of gratitude.
And we, we started talking aboutcompassion along with
forgiveness.
I believe that there's a linkbetween forgiveness and self
compassion
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And, and even more important than that compassion
for others.
I think you can hearthat.
I don't hear to like traditionalways of thinking, but I, in some
of the couple stuff that I'vedone, I, I try to get people to
(24:16):
recognize what an absolute painin the they are and what an
amazing thing is that theirpartners still shows up.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Uh, so true.
That's so true
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Lady.
You are some piece of work andthe fact that this guy is still
here trying, I don't know howyou could be anything but
thankful, right?
Because I'm not interested inrampaging, egos just attacking
each other.
And um, so the compassion, the,what we do to others that makes
(24:50):
them react and feel pain.
That's a big part of this kindof expansion.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
This is a little tangential, but I think one of
the kind of battles in the waydifferent people look at therapy
is that culturally we're verymuch aimed at the individual
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Exactly
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Being separate.
And there's this whole ethos andmythology about, I have to
become my own individual personin reality, from my point of
view that I look at the worldthrough.
And when I think about thecouples that I sit with, the
real challenge is learning howto be vulnerable, to be open and
(25:40):
to be, uh, attached.
That's so much harder to do thanto be separate.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
No question.
It seems when you look at adevelopmental psychologist, you
have to be separate first andthen you can reduce those
boundaries to become attached.
Like, like even Steven Covey,you know, he refers to that
evolution from dependent to inthen, then to interdependent
(26:09):
that, that, um, like you have tohave some sort of coherent self
mm-hmm and then youcan join with, with someone
else.
But you've met therapeuticpatients who are just such a
mess mm-hmminternally they can't join with
anybody easily.
(26:30):
But just being that independentself is never gonna make people
happy.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Right.
Right.
Cause I can have two veryindependent people, but if they
can't, if they're unable to jointogether in, in that marriage,
if they're just living asindependent people together,
that's not really happiness.
That's not really marriage.
That's just, that's a, that's asmall slice of what's available
(26:59):
to them.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I mean, in, in the couple, this work that I've
done, I mean, I do see thatthere is a developmental process
that people learn through aloving partner to get over
themselves a little bit.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And to accommodate another point of view.
And that is really hard work.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah.
It's really hard work.
And often couples can't can'tmanage that.
I know, you know, just kind offrom my life, my wife and I both
came to the marriage with somedifficulty in that area
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Who doesn't
Speaker 1 (27:41):
who doesn't.
But there was some thing aboutthe combination of the two of us
that allowed us to work throughit, to stay together and, and to
really surrender to that kind ofcoming together.
Right.
Which has made it so that, youknow, we're together for 41
years.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And happily,
Speaker 2 (28:03):
And you become, you become more that way.
Mm-hmm.
And, and the thing that I keepon saying is you never, would've
gotten there if you couldn'tforgive each other.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
It's impossible.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
If you also not only couldn't forgive each other, but
also couldn't recognize and begrateful for what each of, of
you gives to the other.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And these are, um, these arehigher order skills, you know, I
think one of the reasons like,like your education in my mind
was deficient was a lot oftherapists haven't gotten to
these levels either of, yeah.
It's not just working out whatwas bad, it's cultivating these
(28:50):
growth oriented ideas so that,you know, you could give up a
part of yourself, she could giveup a part of herself, you could
respect the other, you can heartheir feedback and take it in.
Those are high level skills,
Speaker 1 (29:05):
You know, there's this tendency reduce things down
to, if I just get better atthese kind of lower level
transactional skills, if we, youknow, if we just figure out how
to kind of talk differently, youknow, talk that, but that's not
really gonna get you where youneed to go.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And you know, those, those wonderful study, I
messages that showed that theyhave no impact.
Right.
Cause our non-verbal sooverwhelms the simple language.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
It doesn't matter if I say, I feel, if everything
else is saying, I hate you, I'mangry and hate you.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
It's your fault that this is your fault.
Right?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
That's so true in my experience.
And what we learn to do as inemotionally focused therapy is
really kind of slow the processway, way down, give space to
share that full range of feelingboth the way I I'm connecting
with you.
And also the way in which I amterrified to connect with you.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I know it's quite something, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It's just amazing.
And it's, that's why, what makesit such a wonderful and amazing
experience to sit down withcouples and see them try to work
this out.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I know
Speaker 1 (30:24):
One of the reasons I love working with couples is
here.
You have these two people whoreally adore each other who
really love each other whoreally want to be close and
they're trying and trying, butthey can't do it, find a way to
do it on their own.
And, and my job is to help themdo what they really already want
to do, which is to find a way tofeel safe and close with each
(30:49):
other.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
It's good work.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah.
It's great work.
It's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I mean, I'll just, I'll just offer again that I
think explicit training andforgiveness is a crucial P piece
of that when they, when they doresearch on what are the, what
are the things that allow longterm marriages to succeed?
Forgiveness is always there,
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Right?
Yeah.
Because we're, we're alwaysinjuring each other.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Always,
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You know, I, so I tell my clients all the time
that the goal is not to learnhow to not fight, cuz that's an
impossible goal.
The goal is to learn how to mendthe rift, how to, how to come
back together.
H how to, how to kind of forgiveand accept
Speaker 2 (31:38):
And Gottman's idea of repair being so essential.
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Right.
We have to repair.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
We can't just try to get hope that they will forget.
We have to repair.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And I, again, I would focus on my need to offer
repair, which is the opposite ofthe grievance, which is it's
your fault.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
But the relationship prospers, when I recognize I
want this to work.
And so I have to reach out pastmy smallness and try to offer a
repair.
I won't do that if I don't havesome forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
And then lastly, I just want to make sure our, our
listeners are aware that youhave, uh, in your book on
forgiveness, uh, forgive forgood, a proven prescription for
health and happiness.
And I'm gonna put a link to yourbooks on the show notes, but in
that you have a nine pointprocess or forgiveness process,
(32:46):
which I th and I'm gonna have alink to that, of the show notes
as well, about how people canstart thinking about and moving
towards forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You know, you asked me before, like how do you do
it?
And I was gonna respond to youvery simply.
Just like, if you really askedme that question as a person, I
would say, well, first justrelax.
Mm-hmm like take adeep breath.
Um, let go, quiet down center,open your heart up.
(33:18):
Think of someone love, like justquiet there.
And then when you quiet askyourself, like, is it true that
the world really always has togive me what I want or has to be
the way I want.
And then from that quiet place,you'd recognize that no, it
doesn't always have to work outthe way you want or be the way
you want.
(33:39):
And then I'd of them.
If that's true, then, then howdo you cope with the stuff
that's on your plate?
That wasn't the way you wanted.
And that, that would be my 32ndkind of like, this is what we're
talking about.
We're going inside and wassaying, it hurt it.
Wasn't the way you wanted.
(33:59):
And you, you don't need to staybitter about that.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
To me, what's amazing is how hard it is for people to
hear what you just said andaccept it and to think of
letting go.
That is such a difficult conceptfor people to get.
It's so fascinating how, howhard we will hold on to the, at
bitterness until we die, thatthe things you've hit on.
(34:26):
And, and then we'll close is,are really kind of essential.
This idea of compassion forothers.
Mm-hmm andcompassion for self mm-hmm
.
This combination is what makesfor, for kind of the closeness
that we're, that we're alllooking for to both love and to
feel loved
Speaker 2 (34:46):
And gratitude and gratitude for when, for what
other people do for us.
And, and what the last two lastthings I'll say.
So you can hear my fullcurmudgeon, um, is that
gratitude is not what you see inFacebook or LinkedIn.
Gratitude is an active humility.
(35:08):
It is not ever a like announcingthe self.
The, the researchers ongratitude are clear that it's a
humble appreciation of goodnessdelivered to us that we cause
like, that's what gratitude is.
It's a, it's a self transcendingquality.
(35:30):
The, that, um, the, the secondpiece is when people ask me
about self forgiveness, myresponse is, yeah, there's
simply too much of it.
And that I think the world needsa lot less self forgiveness
because we let ourselves off thehook all the time for terrible
(35:51):
behavior.
Right?
I think there's way too much ofthat.
And um, most people don't thinkof that when they think of
self-forgiveness, but it'sself-forgiveness is, is
acknowledging our terriblebehavior in the same way that we
acknowledge other people's.
And then we make peace byoffering a sincere apology when
(36:16):
possible and amends.
Otherwise it doesn't meananything.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I'll also put a link in here or send you, I have an
article about the five steps toa, a sincere and meaningful
apology.
Exactly.
Everything you just said iscovered in that, because we are
trained from our earliest daysin these fake apologies that I,
if I, you say, I'm sorry, that'ssupposed to take care of it.
(36:41):
And I'm sorry, does is just likethe first small step, but it's
all the other thatacknowledgement that acceptance
that reparation,
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Hey, I'm sorry.
You feel bad, which is an antiapology.
Oh,
Speaker 1 (36:56):
That's like, that's like when some, a celeb gets on
and says, I'm sorry, I made youuncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I will screw you guy.
You know
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Exactly.
Hey Jacob, I gotta go.
And
Speaker 1 (37:10):
It was great talking to you.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
It was delightful.
Maybe we can meet up in SA Alitosometime.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I would love that.
Thank you, Fred.
Take care and have a great day.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Bye bye.
Thank bye.
Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Well, that's our episode for today.
I hope we found it interestingand useful, but most of all, I'd
like to thank you for listening.
If you have a minute, please hitthe subscribe button and give us
a rating.
And I hope to see you again soonon another episode of sex, love
and couples therapy.
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's
therapist in San Francisco.
I wanna welcome you to sex loveand couple's therapy.
We all want to feel loved.
That's a universal desire, butsometimes instead of feeling
loving our relationships, feelconfusing, frustrating, and a
(00:27):
little crazy making the purposeof this podcast is to help you
clear up some of that confusionso that you and your partner can
find ways to make yourrelationship feel closer, more
connect, to do more loving.
So stay tuned.
We've got a lot of great stuffto talk about, and now let's go
talk about my three favoritetopics, sex love, and couples
(00:52):
therapy.
So welcome to sex love andcouple therapy.
And today we have a really,really interesting topic to
explore the question offorgiveness.
Forgiveness is such aninteresting and complex topic,
(01:12):
and it's something that comes upin therapy and, and between
partners and couples all thetime and today to help us
explore that, that topic.
I have Dr.
Luskin Fred is the director ofthe Stanford university
forgiveness projects, a seniorconsultant in health promotion
at Stanford university and aprofessor at the Institute for
transpersonal psychology, aswell as an affiliate faculty
(01:35):
member of the greater goodscience center.
Fred is best known, I thinkperhaps for the kind of the
Bible on for forgiveness that hewrote called for forgive for
good, a proven per prescriptionfor health and happiness, as
well as stress for good 10proven life skills for health
and happiness.
So I'd like to welcome today,Dr.
(01:56):
Fred Luskin, Fred, thanks somuch for joining me.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
You're welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You know, before we get into forgiveness itself, I
wonder are in my experience,people choose dissertation
topics or research areas, bothfor the intellectual curiosity
or the interest in a topic, butoften there's also something
kind of personal that draws themto the area.
And I'm wondering what drew youto the topic of forgiveness?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
A few things, um, always had a longstanding
interest in spiritual practicesin life purpose in like, what
are we doing here?
And found that the I'm gonna saythe spiritual barely religious
(02:44):
and answers were the mostsatisfying to me.
And so when I had to come upwith a dissertation topic, it
was in the nineties when therewas a, a modest reconciliation
between science and religion.
And so I wanted to show that avirtue like from the spiritual
(03:07):
end could be shown throughscience to be valuable on the
material end.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Ah,
Speaker 2 (03:14):
And, and when I started to do this, there was
almost none there, there were ahandful of, of studies, nothing
on compassion or love or hope orgratitude or anything.
And I chose forgiveness becauseI couldn't choose compassion.
Like compassion was the firstquality that came to my mind,
(03:34):
but there were no studies oncompassion.
Interesting.
And even at Stanford, as adoctoral student, you can't
create a field.
So I chose forgiveness becauseat the time I did my
dissertation, there were threestudies in the domain of
forgiveness.
So I wasn't inventing a field.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
That's so interesting.
I really appreciate that idea offinding that it intersection of
science and spirituality.
It's so interesting also becausethat's changed so much since you
started that in the, in thenineties and that's now become
quite a huge field inunderstanding that
neurophysiology and how ourbodies respond to kind of
(04:16):
mindfulness and meditation.
The, these are really bigchanges that have happened in
our field.
While, for example, I'm an EFTtherapist and the whole question
changed in orientation towardskind of relational that we exist
in a relation with anotherperson.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Of course,
Speaker 1 (04:34):
It's hard to believe that that was a radical notion.
Not that many years ago,
Speaker 2 (04:38):
It's still somewhat of a radical notion that we have
responsibilities to other peoplethat other people feelings
matter as much as ours do thatour humanity is defined by being
empathic to others and generous.
I don't think that's that big inthe merit and family world.
(05:00):
It's still more are about whatthe self wants.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I think that's, that's very true.
And, and I think that manytherapists may, you know, even
couple therapists havedifficulties.
They wanna make it verytransactional.
They shy away from the emotionsthat come up rather than seeing
these emotions as thecommunication, the vehicle for
exchanging connection andattachment.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Of course,
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I I'd like to kind of talk a little bit about
forgiveness.
And I guess my first question isthat forgiveness is really, to
me, quite a complex concept.
And I wonder from your point ofview, what does forgiveness
mean?
What does it actually mean toforgive someone?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Um, you free yourself of the burden of your resentment
or self pity from not being atpeace with your own life.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
That's such an important perspective.
And I think when I was readingyour materials, it's woven
throughout is this idea that inforgiving, let's say my partner,
I'm really doing that as anexercise for my own benefit.
You know, I'm not, it may bealso for the benefit of the
(06:18):
relationship, but I'm not doingit to change him or her.
I'm doing it to let, let's go ofthat pain that I feel that I
carry with me.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I'm not, I'm not sure it's that explicitly
transactional, as much as werecognize that a at some level
we made up the grudge mm-hmm
events and people, and we mademeaning out of it.
And we held onto a certain kindof meaning that imprisoned us.
(06:53):
So what we're doing is taking akey and letting ourselves out of
a prison that we created
Speaker 1 (07:00):
And how do we do that?
Cuz we, cuz you're absolutelyright.
We've, let's say there's aninjury, you know, and the, the
typical one for forgivenessmight be infidelity, but it
could be, um, so many otherthings that happen in, in a
relationship, small, large, andwe develop that GRU.
We make meaning this, that, thathe or she didn't come home or sh
(07:22):
they were flirting with someoneor actually had an affair with
someone or let us down in someway.
And we make meaning and makethat grudge from this meaning,
what does it mean?
Or how do I let go of thatgrudge?
How do I, how do I look at thatevent and change to the meeting
that I've given to that event?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I mean, there's a number of things.
First has to be, um, someresponsibility for oneself that,
um, the other day I was coachingan old student who, um, was
really upset because of oldpartners in fidelity.
(08:02):
And, and I, I, I told them thatthe biggest error that they made
was thinking that the partnersinfidelity caused their
excessive emotional reaction andthat they were two separate
things, right?
The partner was unfaithful andthat's clearly true.
And you had an excessive,emotional reaction, which is
(08:25):
yours to deal with.
And you, at this point, it hasnothing to do with the
infidelity.
It's it's, you have a problem.
It's like you have a growth onyour arm or you have diabetes
and, and you need to take careof your problem, which is
excessive reactivity tosomething that happened in the
(08:48):
past.
That doesn't excuse thebehavior, but it, it puts the
attention where it can actuallyhelp.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
It's interesting.
You SA talked about not excusingthe behavior.
And I think in my experience,working with clients that line
or that misconception, thatforgiveness is also condoning or
accepting.
And I just gonna read there'sone quick little thing that you
(09:17):
wrote when you talked about acase history with a, a patient
named Dolores, you say shesuffered under the misconception
that forgiving skip meantcondoning his actions, or it
meant forgetting what hadhappened.
And I think that that's, that'sso important and such a powerful
statement because I see thatagain and again, with my couples
(09:42):
where the barrier to forgivenessis if I forgive him or her, that
means what, what they did wasokay.
Can you talk a, a little bitabout how that forgiveness
doesn't mean condoning or, and Idon't have forget if I forgive,
Speaker 2 (09:57):
If it's okay.
You don't need to forgive it.
It's that simple.
So if a behavior is okay, it'sokay.
So just move on.
There's not, there's no issuethere.
The problem is there arebehaviors that we know are not
okay.
Right.
And that's where forgivenesscomes into place.
So it's just mental nonsensewhen they tell you, um, well,
(10:20):
you know, if I forgive him, itmakes an okay.
Nothing makes drowning a kid.
Okay.
But you can still forgive it.
And, and nothing makes, youknow, any of the really horrible
things that human beings do.
Okay.
So it's, it's just not nonsenseto distract themselves from the
work of forgiveness, which is,there are certain things in this
(10:43):
life that certainly are likeCarly, wrong, spiritually,
wrong, interpersonally, wrong.
Just, they're just not inharmony and we have to deal with
them.
That's one.
So there's an acceptance ofthat.
Like mm-hmm,
experiences and I can stay miredin anger or resentment of self
(11:09):
pity because some of thathappened to me, or I can
recognize that here's anexperience that wasn.
Okay.
But I still have to wake uptomorrow morning and figure out
what to do with that.
So the okayness is somewhatirrelevant, but let's just say,
it's not okay.
(11:30):
What makes forgiveness sopowerful is we don't lose our
moral compass and we don't loseour ability to do concern, but
we recognize that our beingupset about something endlessly
doesn't improve either thesituation for us or anybody else
(11:50):
in this world.
It just keeps us stuck.
We're not, we're not making agreat case for, you know, you
know, the American, whatever.
We're simply being cranky humanbeings.
And, and, and, and we make itseem like so powerful and
righteous, and it's none ofthose things.
The second thing is, um, um,it's, again, it's a non, it's a,
(12:15):
it's a topology.
You can't forget bad things,
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Right?
Speaker 2 (12:20):
So it's stupid to even talk about it.
What you can do is remember itdifferently.
And that's what forgiveness is.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I like that because I also read one more quick thing
that you wrote forgiving.
Someone does not mean forgettingor appro of the hurtful event in
the past.
Rather it means letting go ofyour hurt and anger and not
making someone else endlesslyresponsible for your emotional
wellbeing.
(12:49):
And I think that's such animportant point that, and yet,
and it sounds so simple rightnow, as we talk about it and so
clear and so obvious, but thatis also so difficult for, for
people to sometimes rememberthat I am forgiving this person,
that's this, this bad behaviorso that I can get on with my
(13:13):
life and I can move forward.
Doesn't mean that I, I have tostay friends with them.
It doesn't mean that I have tostay married to them, but it
does mean that I get the freedomto move forward with my life,
rather than being stuck in thatrepetitive cycle.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
When we were contemplating all this, the, the
question that came up is what doyou do with dead people?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (13:39):
So if they're dead, does that mean you can't move
on?
Mm-hmm cause if, if some of thethings you were saying were
true, it's up, time's up, butclearly with dead people, you're
making the whole thing up, causethey're gone well, that it's all
a mental thing with forgiveness.
And, and it also shows to me howpoorly you're being educated as
(14:04):
a therapist, that forgivenessbeing, if not, I'm not gonna say
the most important, butcertainly among the top five
human qualities for healing, thefact that it's ignored in
therapeutic training, right.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Just,
Speaker 2 (14:22):
Just shows the inadequacy of it.
And the I'm gonna say the hardego level of not wanting to
admit that when not dissenterthe universe, so crappy things
happen and therapists make theirmoney off of people, endlessly
exploring their woundedness
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So, so forgiveness is not good for business in that
way.
You know, it's no different thanthe doctor who prescribes pills
and not exercise because that's,that's how they profit
Speaker 1 (14:55):
In my graduate program.
I don't remember spending anytime on the concept of
forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Exactly.
And I didn't either.
I have, so I have 3000 for anMFT and then 3000 for a PhD.
So I have 6,000 supervisedhours.
I'm gonna say one of them wasspent on forgiveness and
compassion combined.
(15:24):
And so that's an inadequateeducation.
And so therapists are not beingwell trained.
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
No, I agree.
the concept of forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Not at all.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
In fact, we see forgiveness as somehow being
weak.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
I know because it's actually too strong for people
to handle.
Yeah.
It's saying that really crappythings might have happened to me
and, and having worked with allsorts of horror in this world.
Right.
Really crappy things do happen.
(16:05):
Do
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Happen?
No question about it.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
No, BSing that for a second.
No.
So it is tough right there tojust hold that.
Then the even harder question iswho's responsible from my
experience now, is it them?
Or is it me?
(16:28):
Well, both of those realizationstake a lot of guts and strength
to say really bad things hashappened.
And I'm now responsible for mylife, which includes that
painful thing.
Right?
Then you work on the story thatyou tell about what all this is
about.
(16:48):
And so those three things take alot of work and a lot of effort
and a lot of maturity.
So of course they're not gonnabe easily promoted.
They're high level skills.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
They're very, they are high level skills.
And they do take a lot of workin that because a lot goes into
that concept.
The ability to forgive a lotgoes into understanding kind of
my relationship to what happenedboth before and after my
relationship I feelings and howI've responded to this.
And I, I even, it, it comes upin a broader kind of social
(17:21):
setting or cultural setting.
When we think about countrieslike South Africa and, you know,
truth and reconciliation orRwanda after the genocide or
Wanda mm-hmm
find a path not to forget, butto forgive
Speaker 2 (17:45):
You see what a difference it makes.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yes.
It's a, it's, it's such apowerful, um, experience.
It's such a powerful changeagent in the world to be able to
forgive
Speaker 2 (17:58):
One practice that we, that we all can do.
And even as therapists is justsimply ask clients, um, like
what's keeping you for, I beinghappy now, right?
Like what are you holding ontowith blame that stops you from
seeing the beautiful world thatyou're in right this moment and
(18:20):
you'll hear their grudges.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Right there.
Yeah.
My mother didn't love me.
My ex was a bomb.
Um, my identity group is, ismistreated, whatever it is, but
you see right there that they'retelling you that they're
sacrificing their happiness tohold onto a grudge.
They won't like to hear that,but you can see it right there.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Right.
And there's, there's this valuethat we place, I think on
righteous anger,
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Like it's really helpful short term to be
righteously angry.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
The problem is, is if you're righteously angry for a
decade,
Speaker 2 (19:02):
It's just anger.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
It's just anger.
Right.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
And, and you know enough about the brain that the
brain on anger does not makegood decisions.
And so that that's not the brainyou want guiding your ship.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
So what do you think makes it so difficult for
people, especially Americans,let's say to even consider the
concept of forgiveness.
I mean, why do people, when youbring it up to them, at least
initially until they understandit more kind of rebel against it
and push back?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, they're not being asked to very often.
So that's part of it.
And there's very littleeducation, as we mentioned, even
from therapists aroundforgiveness.
So it's, it's not an equalplayer at the table.
Mm-hmm
(19:56):
wants to hold onto its dominionand its resentments for all the
ways the world didn't honor thatsense of self.
So, you know, it, the simple,the car cut me a off the
girlfriend dis to me, the, Idon't know all the ways that our
(20:18):
centrality in our own narrativeis challenged.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So that's a great way of looking at it that the sense
of self holds on to this orresist the forgiveness because
that diminishes their sense ofSan neutrality and power.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
That's it.
And it doesn't want, it doesn'twanna see reality, which is we
don't have that much power andwe're quite vulnerable.
So we create grievances andanger and all these other things
to obscure reality.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
That's so interesting.
And, and to use the term, I, Iapologize.
I've forgotten exactly the termnow.
Um, but it's the kind of theequivalent of unreasonable
expectations,
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Unenforceable rules.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
There we go.
Thank you very much that one ofthe things that leads us into
this, the meaning we make andthe anger that comes up over the
, over these terrible thingsthat happen to us and to others
in the world is that there's a,that ego sense of self wants to
be able to enforce some codebehavior.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (21:30):
And I also think that there's a belief that if I can't
enforce that behavior, if thatbehavior, if goes on, it says
something about me in, in that Iget upset because if, if he does
that to me, or she does that to,it's saying something about who
I am and my power and my kind ofworth.
(21:53):
And so we reject strongly thatidea that I, I am, I can't
control their behavior.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
I mean, I, I might emphasize the fear of
vulnerability more.
Hmm.
I that's what I think, I mean,that's just my take on it that
we really don't wanna recognizehow uncertain and we are and how
much threat there is.
And like, at the other level, wedon't wanna recognize how much
(22:26):
we have to be grateful for andhow much goodness there is.
Cuz the ego wants to stay in avery narrow, like controlling
position.
And so it both asserts its falseauthority and refuses to honor
all the goodness that it'sgiven.
(22:46):
I mean the Buddhist have thatwonderful practice of, you know,
just think of a something youeat and just think of the
thousands of people's labor whohad to do something to get that
apple right in front of you.
Like you, you, we have no cluewhat the reducing valves that
(23:07):
we're putting on this world andoh, unforgiveness is simply the
result of those reducing valves.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
And I think that, that, that concept of gratitude
Yeah.
And recognizing kind of where wefit into the chain of the world
and gratitude for all the thingsthat exist in our life is
another incredibly powerful andincredibly underutilized power
in, in, in healing and infinding happiness in the world.
(23:39):
But again, it's something thatpeople at first blush often push
back sense of gratitude.
And we, we started talking aboutcompassion along with
forgiveness.
I believe that there's a linkbetween forgiveness and self
compassion
Speaker 2 (23:56):
And, and even more important than that compassion
for others.
I don't hear to like traditionalways of thinking, but I, in some
of the couple stuff that I'vedone, I, I try to get people to
(24:16):
recognize what an absolute painin the they are and what an
amazing thing is that theirpartners still shows up.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Uh, so true.
That's so true
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Lady.
You are some piece of work andthe fact that this guy is still
here trying, I don't know howyou could be anything but
thankful, right?
Because I'm not interested inrampaging, egos just attacking
each other.
And um, so the compassion, the,what we do to others that makes
(24:50):
them react and feel pain.
That's a big part of this kindof expansion.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
This is a little tangential, but I think one of
the kind of battles in the waydifferent people look at therapy
is that culturally we're verymuch aimed at the individual
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Exactly
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Being separate.
And there's this whole ethos andmythology about, I have to
become my own individual personin reality, from my point of
view that I look at the worldthrough.
And when I think about thecouples that I sit with, the
real challenge is learning howto be vulnerable, to be open and
(25:40):
to be, uh, attached.
That's so much harder to do thanto be separate.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
No question.
It seems when you look at adevelopmental psychologist, you
have to be separate first andthen you can reduce those
boundaries to become attached.
Like, like even Steven Covey,you know, he refers to that
evolution from dependent to inthen, then to interdependent
(26:09):
that, that, um, like you have tohave some sort of coherent self
mm-hmm
else.
But you've met therapeuticpatients who are just such a
mess mm-hmm
anybody easily.
(26:30):
But just being that independentself is never gonna make people
happy.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Right.
Right.
Cause I can have two veryindependent people, but if they
can't, if they're unable to jointogether in, in that marriage,
if they're just living asindependent people together,
that's not really happiness.
That's not really marriage.
That's just, that's a, that's asmall slice of what's available
(26:59):
to them.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I mean, in, in the couple, this work that I've
done, I mean, I do see thatthere is a developmental process
that people learn through aloving partner to get over
themselves a little bit.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
And to accommodate another point of view.
And that is really hard work.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah.
It's really hard work.
And often couples can't can'tmanage that.
I know, you know, just kind offrom my life, my wife and I both
came to the marriage with somedifficulty in that area
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Who doesn't
Speaker 1 (27:41):
But there was some thing aboutthe combination of the two of us
that allowed us to work throughit, to stay together and, and to
really surrender to that kind ofcoming together.
Right.
Which has made it so that, youknow, we're together for 41
years.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And happily,
Speaker 2 (28:03):
And you become, you become more that way.
Mm-hmm
And, and the thing that I keepon saying is you never, would've
gotten there if you couldn'tforgive each other.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
It's impossible.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
If you also not only couldn't forgive each other, but
also couldn't recognize and begrateful for what each of, of
you gives to the other.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And these are, um, these arehigher order skills, you know, I
think one of the reasons like,like your education in my mind
was deficient was a lot oftherapists haven't gotten to
these levels either of, yeah.
It's not just working out whatwas bad, it's cultivating these
(28:50):
growth oriented ideas so that,you know, you could give up a
part of yourself, she could giveup a part of herself, you could
respect the other, you can heartheir feedback and take it in.
Those are high level skills,
Speaker 1 (29:05):
You know, there's this tendency reduce things down
to, if I just get better atthese kind of lower level
transactional skills, if we, youknow, if we just figure out how
to kind of talk differently, youknow, talk that, but that's not
really gonna get you where youneed to go.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And you know, those, those wonderful study, I
messages that showed that theyhave no impact.
Right.
Cause our non-verbal sooverwhelms the simple language.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
It doesn't matter if I say, I feel, if everything
else is saying, I hate you, I'mangry and hate you.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
It's your fault that this is your fault.
Right?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
That's so true in my experience.
And what we learn to do as inemotionally focused therapy is
really kind of slow the processway, way down, give space to
share that full range of feelingboth the way I I'm connecting
with you.
And also the way in which I amterrified to connect with you.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I know it's quite something, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It's just amazing.
And it's, that's why, what makesit such a wonderful and amazing
experience to sit down withcouples and see them try to work
this out.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
I know
Speaker 1 (30:24):
One of the reasons I love working with couples is
here.
You have these two people whoreally adore each other who
really love each other whoreally want to be close and
they're trying and trying, butthey can't do it, find a way to
do it on their own.
And, and my job is to help themdo what they really already want
to do, which is to find a way tofeel safe and close with each
(30:49):
other.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
It's good work.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Yeah.
It's great work.
It's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
I mean, I'll just, I'll just offer again that I
think explicit training andforgiveness is a crucial P piece
of that when they, when they doresearch on what are the, what
are the things that allow longterm marriages to succeed?
Forgiveness is always there,
Speaker 1 (31:14):
Right?
Yeah.
Because we're, we're alwaysinjuring each other.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Always,
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You know, I, so I tell my clients all the time
that the goal is not to learnhow to not fight, cuz that's an
impossible goal.
The goal is to learn how to mendthe rift, how to, how to come
back together.
H how to, how to kind of forgiveand accept
Speaker 2 (31:38):
And Gottman's idea of repair being so essential.
Right.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Right.
We have to repair.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
We can't just try to get hope that they will forget.
We have to repair.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
And I, again, I would focus on my need to offer
repair, which is the opposite ofthe grievance, which is it's
your fault.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
But the relationship prospers, when I recognize I
want this to work.
And so I have to reach out pastmy smallness and try to offer a
repair.
I won't do that if I don't havesome forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
And then lastly, I just want to make sure our, our
listeners are aware that youhave, uh, in your book on
forgiveness, uh, forgive forgood, a proven prescription for
health and happiness.
And I'm gonna put a link to yourbooks on the show notes, but in
that you have a nine pointprocess or forgiveness process,
(32:46):
which I th and I'm gonna have alink to that, of the show notes
as well, about how people canstart thinking about and moving
towards forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
You know, you asked me before, like how do you do
it?
And I was gonna respond to youvery simply.
Just like, if you really askedme that question as a person, I
would say, well, first justrelax.
Mm-hmm
Um, let go, quiet down center,open your heart up.
(33:18):
Think of someone love, like justquiet there.
And then when you quiet askyourself, like, is it true that
the world really always has togive me what I want or has to be
the way I want.
And then from that quiet place,you'd recognize that no, it
doesn't always have to work outthe way you want or be the way
you want.
(33:39):
And then I'd of them.
If that's true, then, then howdo you cope with the stuff
that's on your plate?
That wasn't the way you wanted.
And that, that would be my 32ndkind of like, this is what we're
talking about.
We're going inside and wassaying, it hurt it.
Wasn't the way you wanted.
(33:59):
And you, you don't need to staybitter about that.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
To me, what's amazing is how hard it is for people to
hear what you just said andaccept it and to think of
letting go.
That is such a difficult conceptfor people to get.
It's so fascinating how, howhard we will hold on to the, at
bitterness until we die, thatthe things you've hit on.
(34:26):
And, and then we'll close is,are really kind of essential.
This idea of compassion forothers.
Mm-hmm
This combination is what makesfor, for kind of the closeness
that we're, that we're alllooking for to both love and to
feel loved
Speaker 2 (34:46):
And gratitude and gratitude for when, for what
other people do for us.
And, and what the last two lastthings I'll say.
So you can hear my fullcurmudgeon, um, is that
gratitude is not what you see inFacebook or LinkedIn.
Gratitude is an active humility.
(35:08):
It is not ever a like announcingthe self.
The, the researchers ongratitude are clear that it's a
humble appreciation of goodnessdelivered to us that we cause
like, that's what gratitude is.
It's a, it's a self transcendingquality.
(35:30):
The, that, um, the, the secondpiece is when people ask me
about self forgiveness, myresponse is, yeah, there's
simply too much of it.
And that I think the world needsa lot less self forgiveness
because we let ourselves off thehook all the time for terrible
(35:51):
behavior.
Right?
I think there's way too much ofthat.
And um, most people don't thinkof that when they think of
self-forgiveness, but it'sself-forgiveness is, is
acknowledging our terriblebehavior in the same way that we
acknowledge other people's.
And then we make peace byoffering a sincere apology when
(36:16):
possible and amends.
Otherwise it doesn't meananything.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
I'll also put a link in here or send you, I have an
article about the five steps toa, a sincere and meaningful
apology.
Exactly.
Everything you just said iscovered in that, because we are
trained from our earliest daysin these fake apologies that I,
if I, you say, I'm sorry, that'ssupposed to take care of it.
(36:41):
And I'm sorry, does is just likethe first small step, but it's
all the other thatacknowledgement that acceptance
that reparation,
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Hey, I'm sorry.
You feel bad, which is an antiapology.
Oh,
Speaker 1 (36:56):
That's like, that's like when some, a celeb gets on
and says, I'm sorry, I made youuncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
I will screw you guy.
You know
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Exactly.
Hey Jacob, I gotta go.
And
Speaker 1 (37:10):
It was great talking to you.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
It was delightful.
Maybe we can meet up in SA Alitosometime.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
I would love that.
Thank you, Fred.
Take care and have a great day.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Bye bye.
Thank bye.
Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
Well, that's our episode for today.
I hope we found it interestingand useful, but most of all, I'd
like to thank you for listening.
If you have a minute, please hitthe subscribe button and give us
a rating.
And I hope to see you again soonon another episode of sex, love
and couples therapy.
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