June 25, 2022 • 50 mins
Growing up with self-involved or emotionally immature parents can make childhood very hard. You may be well taken care of, have a stable home life, and get birthday parties, but still feel that something was really lacking in your childhood. If your parents are emotionally unable to really connect with you, then you may still grow up feeling emotionally empty.
In her landmark book Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, Dr. Lindsay Gibson explains how confusing it is for the child when their parent is so self-involved, that they can't really see, or respond to, the child's emotional needs.
We'll also talk about Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents and then carry that experience into their own marriages and with their own children. Dr. Gibson will talk about how you can recover from that experience to create happier and healthier relationships.
Please join us for this fascinating and important conversation.
Link to her books
Link to my website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's
therapist in San Francisco.
I wanna welcome you to sex loveand couple's therapy.
We all want to feel loved.
That's a universal desire, butsometimes instead of feeling
loving our relationships, feelconfusing, frustrating, and a
(00:28):
little crazy making the purposeof this podcast is to help you
clear up some of that confusionso that you and your partner can
find ways to make yourrelationship feel closer, more
connected, and more loving.
So stay tuned.
We've got a lot of great stuffto talk about, and now let's go
talk about my three favoritetopics, sex love, and couples
(00:52):
therapy.
Well, I'd like to welcometoday's guest Dr.
Lindsay Gibson.
I am incredibly excited to, tobe talking today with Dr.
Gibson, who is the author of thevery popular and, and I think
really very important book,adult children of emotionally
(01:12):
immature parents, how to healfrom distant rejecting or
self-involved parents.
Dr.
Gibson is a clinicalpsychologist in private
practice, and she specializes inindividual psychotherapy with
adult children of emotionallymature parents.
She's along with that book,she's also the author of
recovering from emotionallyimmature parents and self care
(01:34):
for adult children ofemotionally immature parents and
her recent book who you weremeant to be a guide defining or
recovering your life's purpose.
Dr.
Gibson lives in practices inVirginia Beach, Virginia, Dr.
Gibson.
Welcome, and thanks so much forcoming and talking with us
today.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh, it's a, it's a great honor to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I wanted to just take a second to make sure that, uh,
kind of, we all have aunderstanding of what we're
talking about today, and Iwonder if you wouldn't mind just
taking a, a moment or two tokind of set the frame for what
you mean by an emotionallyimmature parent.
What does that kind of, when yousay that phrase, what comes up
(02:17):
in your mind as a picture ofthat person?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I, I, I just wanna say before I get into that, that
I've made this my life's workmm-hmm because I
think it is so crucial to, uh,mental health and it all over
the world, because the impact ofemotional immaturity in a parent
(02:40):
on the child is far reaching.
Um, it is very subtle and oftenunseen, but it has a huge impact
on that person's emotional life,their sense of self-esteem and
their ability to have rewardingrelationships.
So what do we mean when we sayemotionally immature?
(03:02):
Well, emotional immaturity is,um, when something goes wrong in
that very specific line ofdevelopment, psychologically,
that has to do with managingyour emotions and integrating,
uh, your emotions into yourpersonality in such a way that
(03:22):
your emotions serve you instead,overwhelming you.
So something goes wrong, whetherit's, um, uh, you know, a
congenital or neurologicalproblem, or whether it's an
environmental problem, such asabuse, emotionally, immature,
people just don't grow upemotionally.
(03:45):
Now they may grow upintellectually.
Uh, they may be very smart.
They may be brilliant.
They may be, um, uh, you know,very effective leader.
They may be the head of a bigbusiness.
I mean, it doesn't impair theirfunctioning, but when it comes
to intimate relationships ofwhich, you know, parent child
(04:05):
relationships are, are like ahuge example of that.
They have a lot of troubleallowing other people to be
themselves and to set their ownlimits and their own boundaries.
Instead, the emotionallyimmature person, like the three
year old, um, wants you to beall theirs, uh, to mirror them,
(04:28):
to be just like them and makesthem feel secure, uh, to
regulate their emotionalstability for them.
And to make sure that youbolster their self-esteem.
I, I call that the emotionalimmature relationship system,
meaning that I expect you, ifI'm emotionally immature to
(04:50):
regulate me, my self-esteem myemotional stability.
And if you don't, that meansthat you don't love me.
Mm-hmm and it meansthat I have to pull away from
you, or I have to punish you,or, you know, something has to
go wrong, but that's just asketch of, uh, what happens in
people who are emotionallyimmature and you can apply all
(05:13):
of that to the way that a parentwould treat a child, right?
Like there would be, uh,impaired empathy.
Um, there would be, uh,quickness to anger or punish.
There would be that expectationthat the child hide themselves
mm-hmm um, andinstead mirror what the parent
(05:35):
wants to see.
So yeah.
Self development becomes verytricky with parents like that.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, no, you can imagine that.
I think that's a, a greatdescription.
It, the way I look at it fromthat description, it changes the
role of the child.
So in an, if I have a moremature parent, then the parent
feels themselves separate, bothseparate from the child, but
also the parent is in a sense inservice of the child yes.
And caring for them bothphysically and emotionally, but
(06:03):
in the parent that you justdescribed, the child is in
service of the parent.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Exactly.
Right.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And you can imagine how difficult that is for the
child to grow up in a world inwhich they are clearly
responsible for the care oftheir parents' kind of emotional
regulation and emotional needs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what a burden that places onthe child.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah.
And, you know, the tragic thingabout it is that the child is
not aware that they're carryinga burden because they have
always been in that predicament.
So it feels normal.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah.
And I was wondering, cuz I, Icompletely agree with you about
how important this work is.
Um, and the IM the tremendousimpact this has on so many
individuals as they grow up, youknow, I can imagine, uh,
parent's emotional maturity orimmaturity might exist on a
scale from, you know, um, subtleor mild to profound.
(07:05):
And I wonder how big a problemare we dealing with?
I mean, what kind of, do youhave a sense of what percentage
of parents might fall into oneof these categories of having
emotional and maturity thatmight have a substantial impact
on a child?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I don't have a feel for how many, I can just tell
you how popular the books been.
right.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I was gonna bring that up.
That the book has beenincredibly popular
Speaker 2 (07:35):
yeah.
So, um, my sense of it is thatwith, um, when I look at my
clientele, which is really thesource of, of my, uh, research,
my field research, right?
Um, yeah.
People who suffer from anxiety,um, and depression, but more so
anxiety.
(07:56):
Those are people that I find ahigh likelihood that they have
had some kind of experienceswith emotional, significant
emotionally immature people intheir past.
So I, I don't know the numbers,but I would say that this is
probably much more widespreadthan anybody would think.
(08:18):
Um, if we just, you know, usedthat term emotionally immature
appearance, I'm sure a lot ofpeople wouldn't consider that
they had those kinds of parentsuntil they understood what, what
, what they, uh, actually arelike,
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Well, I think there's a lot of value from my point of
view.
And I wonder what your thoughtis, is this using the term
emotionally immature parent, asopposed to a more, uh, technical
diagnosis of narcissisticpersonality disorder or be
borderline personality disorder.
And I wonder what your thoughtsare about using your more
(08:52):
umbrella term, as opposed tothose more kind of technical Def
uh, diagnoses.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah.
Well, it's kind of like allthose, um, diagnoses that you
just mentioned to my way ofthinking are indicators of
emotional immaturity.
Mm-hmm, like, I, Icome from a very developmental
perspective.
Right.
Um, that's how I was trained andthat's what has been born out in
, in my experience as well.
(09:18):
The diagnostic categories thatyou just mentioned, um, do fall
under what I consider thatumbrella term of emotional
immaturity.
And I wanted to keep it broadand, uh, a little bit undefined
that way mm-hmm,diagnostically because I didn't
want people to feel like theyhad to betray their parent by
(09:39):
giving them a, a right, you know, label pathological diagnosis,
a label.
Yeah.
Correct.
Yeah.
Um, and I also recognize thatthere are a bunch of different
types of people that are what Iwould consider to be emotionally
immature.
Um, but they may not necessarilymeet the DSM categories.
(09:59):
Mm-hmm, their, uh,criteria.
And they may actually appear tobe very nice people, very kindly
people they might even be seenas the favorite parent, um, in
the family.
But when you actually look atthe degree of their empathy,
their ability to, um, take otherpeople's needs into account and
(10:24):
their ability to engage in realemotional intimacy with other
people that is relationships ata, at a deeper, more profound
level, they really are immature.
So there just are a lot ofdifferent ways that a, a person
can formulate a personality andyet still have that under
(10:47):
structuring of immaturity.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah.
That's very interesting.
And, and I think that idea ofnot ha asking them to portray a
parent, I think it's veryimportant because even as
adults, even when, once we'reaware of kind of our parents'
limitations, there's atremendous resistance to really
kind of speaking badly or, oracknowledging some of those
(11:13):
issues.
And I thought one of the things,one of the quotes that I was
really impressed with from, fromthe book is this question of how
the child, how the adult childbegins to come to terms with the
kind of childhood he or she hadand how difficult that can be.
(11:33):
And especially if they werephysically well cared for it's
one thing, if you werephysically abused or de
deprived, and you can point tothat, but if you are physically
well cared for, it becomes moredifficult to really see it.
And the quote you had is beingwell cared for in non-emotional
(11:54):
areas can create confusion inpeople who grow up feeling
emotionally lonely.
They have overwhelming physicalevidence that their parents
loved and sacrificed for them,but they feel a painful lack of
emotional security and closenesswith their parents.
Yeah.
And that's such a, I see so manyof my clients who show that same
(12:16):
question or issue when I kind ofsuggest some questions about
their parents, they say, oh, no,no, no.
I was really well taken care of,you know, I went to the best
schools.
I went to summer camp, wetraveled and it's takes quite a
while for them to feelcomfortable enough to kind of
(12:37):
have that connection with ohyeah.
But there was this other part
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (12:41):
That I never felt.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And I still don't feel
Speaker 2 (12:46):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
And that points also to, uh,that thing about how do we, uh,
how do we learn to know whatwe're feeling?
Yeah.
Because we aren't born knowingwhat our feelings are.
We're born with a bunch ofsensations, um, bunch of, uh,
body experiences, but it reallydepends on the parent noticing
(13:13):
the child's, uh, emotionalreactions and then putting words
and names on those emotions.
So, uh, the emotionally immatureparent, not being very attuned,
um, to other people's emotionalexperiences is not gonna look at
their child and say, oh honey,you look like you're feeling
emotionally lonely.
(13:33):
Perhaps you're not gettingenough connection.
that's not gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Not gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so yes, they, they have thephysical sensations.
They have that, that feeling,but they would not be conscious
of it or in any way know what itwas connected to.
Right.
But, you know, I think one ofthe most, um, poignant and in
some ways, beautiful thingthough, Jacob is that apparently
(14:03):
we are wired for love.
Mm-hmm, apparentlywe're wired for a deep, true
connection with other people.
To me, that is the mostmarvelous attribute that
we have.
And when we don't get it, whenwe can't connect with somebody
at a deep enough level, it doessomething to us.
(14:27):
It's like, we're, we're missinga vital nutrient.
And of course, you know, in, inyour work, in, in your specialty
area, um, I'm sure that you'redealing with people all the time
who are essentially feeling likethey're missing essential
nutrients in theirrelationships.
Right.
But you might not have any ideawhat to call that.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Right?
No, that's so true.
And I think it's one of the moreheartbreaking moments of being a
couple's therapist.
When you see a couple of whichone partner is unable to kind of
take in the nutrients that theirO that their partners trying
desperately to give them.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Mm-hmm,,
they're so trying to love,
they're so loving them, but it'skind of goes past them.
It kind of goes through themwithout sticking.
And that kind of reminds me ofyou, the quote, that also from
your book that these people,these Cho adult children often
settle for emotional lonelinessin their relationships, because
(15:33):
it feels normal to them liketheir early home life.
And, and this just goes back towhat you were just saying about
the lack of attunement and thelack of reflection, accurate
reflection of what they'refeeling.
That they've never felt thatemotional fullness
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
And so they take that loneliness into their
relationships and they are stillnot able to feel those
nutrients.
And that's just heartbreakingsometimes.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, it really is because it's sort of like, how
do you, um, how do you increasethat receptive capacity in a
person who doesn't recognizewhat they're being given and is,
you know, sometimes, uh,confused or, um, threatened by
it.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
That makes a lot of sense that, that they might be
threatened by this, but I'mwondering as these children, oh,
first one last quick questionabout the emotionally immature
parent, and you talked about it,they might even be the favored
parent.
I wonder is your experience, Imean, not this isn't
quantitative or statistical, butjust your experience that this
(16:43):
tends to be more the father orthe mother.
Do you have a gender feel aboutthis?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
No, I really don't because every time I start to
think, oh, it's more the dad or,oh, it's more the mom, I get
another example of the opposite.
Right.
Um, and, and we're prettyfamiliar in, in therapy with
family dynamics where we have amother who, you know, may be
(17:11):
quite loving toward thechildren, may be, you know, more
gentle, have gentle person havea nicer temperament that
would be the, what I call thepassive emotionally immature
parent.
But when it comes right down toit, they're not gonna protect
that kid.
Mm-hmm from theother, uh, emotionally immature
parent who may be quiterejecting or even abusive.
(17:34):
Right.
Um, because their response, thepassive types response is to
sort of glide over things andteach the child to not make a
big deal about, uh, hurts orthings that happen.
And so you can have that kindof, of mother we're familiar
with, with mm-hmmthat, but then you can also have
(17:57):
the family situation where themother is maybe more
narcissistic, um, uh, entitledimperious, critical, uh,
perfectionistic.
And then you have a dad who sortof facilitates her running the
show.
He protects her, he makesexcuses for her.
(18:18):
He counsels the children to justgo along.
So mom doesn't get upset, youknow, so we can see in both of
those examples that this is akind of a passive, emotional
immaturity coming out in bothgendered parents.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Right.
You know, it's interesting whatyou, those descriptions also
really remind me of what we seein people who grew up in
alcoholic households.
And I'm wondering what, in yourmind, if any kind of connection
you make between, you know, um,growing up as a, a child of
(18:56):
alcoholism versus a, a child ofa immature emotionally immature
parent.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah.
Well, you can think of it as anykind of drug use, any kind of
abuse of intoxicants helps youfeel like you're coping.
Correct.
Um, it reduces stress, uh, ittakes pressure off and it makes
you feel okay.
(19:24):
Basically.
Mm-hmm,, that's,that's, that's the power behind
intoxicants, right?
Yeah.
So emotionally immature people,um, are often not up to the
tasks and the pressures and thestresses of adult life at an
emotional level.
And so they, uh, they reallyneed help in dealing with
(19:46):
stress.
And because like we've beensaying they have trouble taking
in support from other peoplebecause they're not used to it.
And they don't know quite whatto do with it.
Then it makes sense that theywould try to handle this on
their own, right.
Through some kind of substanceor some kind of activity, uh,
could be a lot of acting outthat goes on as well.
(20:07):
Mm-hmm, um, thathelps to calm them, or it helps
to center them or, um, sort ofbring them into alignment again.
So I think that there are a lotof similarities because
addiction is a way of copingwithout using support from other
people.
Um, right.
And without really looking atwhat the emotional issues are
(20:28):
underneath,
Speaker 1 (20:29):
That makes a lot of sense.
So I'm wondering as take, youknow, these emotionally, these
adult children, and we look atthem in relationships cuz they,
as they grow up and go intorelationships, I wonder how do
you see them dealing with the,both the joys and the challenges
and the difficulties?
(20:49):
What, what are they like aspartners for, you know, example,
how do they be, how do theyapproach relationships as they
grow up?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah.
Well, think about it in terms ofwhat they have, um, had to
practice and get good at intheir relationship in their
families, especially with theirparents.
Um, they have had to, uh,tolerate a one-sided
relationship with the parentwhere the parent is, um,
(21:20):
basically not aware of andtherefore not very interested in
what's going on inside thatchild.
So the child learns that mysubjective experience is not
important.
In fact, it causes problems.
It annoys people, it's it's, uh,a burden or nuisance to people.
(21:41):
So if I'm gonna have a closerelationship, then I need to
hide that.
And like you said earlier, servebe of service to the person that
, um, I'm getting into arelationship with.
So they go into relationshipsexpecting to do all the
emotional work that is, uh,they're gonna, they're gonna be
(22:05):
the one with empathy.
They're gonna be the one who,um, has to tell their partner
how to be a grownup, um, in, intheir parenting or how to take
responsibility or how to be moresensitive.
They're always workingemotionally, uh, to try to bring
their partner up to speed andthey expect relationships to be
(22:26):
frustrating.
Uh, they don't expectrelationships to be enriching.
I don't know how many peopleI've had, who will talk about,
um, they'll say things like,well, I know relationships, uh,
take a lot of work, right?
I'm thinking, no they don't.
Um, uh, yes, you have tomake effort to have a good
(22:47):
relationship and you have to beaware and you have to try and
all that.
But these are people who aretruly working at their
relationships, um, and notgetting very far.
So that feels normal to a personwho has had to take on the
responsibility of, uh, caringfor the emotional needs of their
(23:12):
parent, for instance.
And also, um, they have learnedthat you put other people first,
uh, that self-sacrifice is thehighest good in a relationship.
Now, interestingly, there's ashadow side to this underneath
that there is a lonely woundedneglected child, part of
(23:35):
themselves, right?
Who is hoping for a partner whowill finally finally give them
the love that they never got andwho will be sensitively attuned
to what they need without thereever having to ask for it.
You know, that for these adultchildren would be, oh, that just
(23:59):
the greatest good in terms ofwhat you could expect from a
relationship that I don't haveto tell you what I need.
You notice what I need and giveit to me.
Now, the, the shadow side ofthis is that sometimes that part
can get very strong and a lot ofthe suppressed anger that they
(24:23):
have toward a parent who was notsensitive to their needs, who
didn't guess what they werefeeling or what they needed,
that anger comes up and getsexpressed toward that partner.
But they have no idea that itit's coming from an old source
of pain.
Right.
In addition to whatever thepartner's really doing.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Right.
But it right.
So the part, yeah, so thepartner really becomes this
constant source, which youtalked about frustration of why
don't they really see me?
Why don't they really understandwhat I need?
You know, they should know, andthey get there's this constant
anger at the partner ordissatisfaction without, as you
pointed out, recognizing thatthat dissatisfaction was
(25:07):
something or that loneliness andemptiness, they brought to the
relationship that this is partof them rather than at the
partner's, you know, failure.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
And yes.
And, and the other thing thatthey bring to the relationship,
I just wanna, um, mention hereis they bring a passivity about
asking for what they need orexplaining what they need.
Um, because if they ever did getsomething good from their
parent, it was probably when momor dad was having a good day or,
(25:40):
you know, feeling, uh, flushabout life and they gave gifts
or they, they, uh, read them astory or they did something kind
and sweet with them, but itwasn't because the child went to
them in a state of great needand the parent met the need.
It was that the parent wasfeeling good.
Right.
You know?
(26:00):
And so there's like this, acausal overflow of giving mm-hmm
.
Yeah.
And so the child learns thatI've gotta sit back and wait for
somebody to guess what I need,because when I ask for it, it
turns people off.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Right.
And to me, you know, the way Ilook at things that also
resonates with the question ofkind of this deep sense of shame
that they carry that, whichprevents them from actually
saying, yeah, I, I, I need thisfrom you.
I want this from you.
That, that, it's very hard forthem to feel that they have the
(26:38):
ability, the right, or that it'sgonna turn out well at all.
If they actually name howthey're feeling.
And that continues to be thisblock, because they both can't
name it or express it and theyexpect the partner to divine it,
to know it.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yes.
And that becomes, that becomesproof of love.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Right.
Right.
You expressed that really wellin the book, we said that they
believe if they want closeness,they must play a role that
always puts the other personfirst.
And then later the biggestrelationship downfall is being
overly sacrificing and thenbecoming resentful at how much
they do for the other.
(27:23):
Yes.
So it's this terrible dilemmathat they, that they find
themselves in all the time.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yes.
And they've also learned thatit's necessary to persevere.
That is you have to go for along time in between rewards.
Um, and it's, it's that wholething about intermittent
reinforcement, right?
That when you, when things arenot going the way you want them
(27:48):
to, you have to double down andendure until something shifts or
something changes.
And that willingness to perpersevere with unsatisfying
connections is one of the thingsthat, you know, holds people
together.
Mm-hmm,, um,unfortunately in a way that, uh,
(28:10):
it's kind of a, a hope that'smisplaced because the right the
situation is really not beingaddressed, but that's okay.
Because they've learned that ifI persevere long enough, mom
will be in a good mood or dadwill, uh, you know, uh, be happy
to see me or, you know, butit's, they're just too
(28:31):
accommodating and too hopefulabout things turning around on
their own.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
You can imagine these kind of, it's like these little
Oasis in the desert, but theyhave to travel for months, bet
from, from one water hole to thenext, they learned how to do
that as a child, you know?
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And, and they keep expecting that, oh yeah, just a
little longer, they'll be, we'llreach another water hole with my
husband or my wife, but theydon't.
And the last part of that isthat they then think that's the
failing of the partner, asopposed to their problem of
seeing the, the nutrients thatare already around them, that,
(29:14):
that they're always in a water,in a water hole at a Oasis.
And they just haven't figuredout how to see it and how to
drink from it.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yes.
Yeah.
And then there's, you know, uh,that other issue too, which is,
am I worthy?
Right.
Um, to be given these thingsthat that's a very deep one,
because a lot of timesemotionally mature parents give
their children that impressionthat they're not worthy.
(29:43):
Uh, they're not, um, even basicentitlements to, uh, being
treated with respect or havingboundaries observed or listening
or seeing, or noticing, youknow, some of these things, uh,
that the kids are not worthy ofthat kind of parental, uh,
emotional attention.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
And I'm wondering do, um, the children, when they grow
up, do they tend to marry peopleor get in relationship with,
with people that are kind ofreenactments of that childhood?
Do they, do they then getinvolved with other emotionally
immature people or how do theythen kind of seek out partners
(30:25):
in the world?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah.
I, I, I think that certainlyhappens a lot.
I mean, a lot of the people thatI would see for, um, basically
adjustment, uh, disorderspertaining to a marriage would
be that kind of thing, wherethey got involved with someone,
they accepted the premise thatthis is supposed to be a lot of
work.
(30:48):
Um, it's up to me to make a goodrelationship.
Uh you know, there'snothing, um, that I can do.
I just have to sort of, uh, youknow, endure this and then, you
know, a few years later, orwhenever along comes a person
who really does make aconnection with them.
And so the first choice might bea person who is like the family
(31:13):
shares.
A lot of those dynamics treatsthem very similarly to that.
Mm-hmm.
And then maybe in a laterrelationship, as they have
really kind of become consciousof, of the pain in that first,
um, right.
Uh, dysfunctional relationship,they become more conscious of
the pain and more self-aware.
(31:33):
They really are more emotionallyavailable for a good
relationship.
And they can, you know, end upwith a, a good person, but I've
seen a lot of people.
Um, these tended to be peoplewho had some saving graces in
their history, you know, likethey had a grandmother or they
had a teacher, or they had afriend's parent who kind of gave
(31:57):
them more attention andnurturing, um, than they
would've otherwise had.
And those people sometimesreally find good mates early,
right.
Are relatively early.
Um, and they, and they have goodrelationships that continue.
And it's really wonderful whenyou see how, you know, they have
(32:22):
good communication, they havegood empathy for each other.
They have fun with each other.
They feel safe with each other.
Those relationships with yourpartner can happen even, you
know, if you have emotionallyimmature parents and I'm sure it
has something to do with some oftheir, um, you know, kind of, uh
(32:42):
, saving experiences with, withnurturing people in their past.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Right, right.
It's it's so, that's sointeresting cuz we see that with
kids in lots of different waysthat who have had very difficult
, uh, childhoods or childhoodsof that are abusive or, um,
deprivation that, that oneteacher who paid attention to
them, mm-hmm thatone coach and may even have been
(33:09):
a relatively short relationship,has a profound impact on their
later life.
Mm-hmm to setting a, a model for how people are
supposed to interact with eachother.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah.
And the other interestingquestion, uh, about that is, is
it that they had those people oris it that they noticed that
they had those people?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Uh, yeah,
Speaker 2 (33:34):
That's a,
Speaker 1 (33:34):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah, because maybe, um, some of the other children
who didn't emotionally mature inthe same way, maybe they had
caring people too.
Right.
But for whatever reason,couldn't take it in or couldn't
um, couldn't recognize it.
It's we'll never know the answerto that one, but it it's
(33:56):
interesting.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
It's a, but it's a great point because sometimes no
matter what, someone's notavailable, not able to kind of
notice or see the things thatthey have that are gonna right
in front of them.
And, but that's just a, a signof how profoundly they've been
kind of damaged by that kind ofearly system.
(34:18):
Yes.
Of not really being, beingnoticed.
Yeah.
You know, I was wondering onelast thing about this topic.
I can imagine also, cuz youknow, I'm a, an EFT therapist is
we talk about attachment all thetime.
And sometimes what happens is ina family, a parent is able to
attune better to one child thanto another just cuz of either
(34:42):
circumstances or their personinnate personalities or what's
happened.
And so I can imagine it beingvery confusing that a child
might grow up, let's say there'stwo or three kids and they feel
emotionally lonely in a way atwhich their siblings don't.
That might be very, you can justimagine how painful that would
(35:04):
be for them to kind of feel thisway within that system.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yes, absolutely.
Um, what I have noticed a lotthough in the histories of my
clients is that that other childthat seems to get all the
parents attention, uh, that isvery much seen as the favorite
or kind of gets away with murderand, and my client grew up, um,
(35:32):
kind of having to, um, defer tothe needs of that sibling and so
forth.
A lot of times that closenesswith the emotionally immature
parent is not what we mean bycloseness mm-hmm,
um, it is more of an enmeshright where the parent sort of
(35:53):
sees a reflection of their ownchild self in that particular
child.
And then they become very mergedpsychologically with that child
and become indulgent.
And uh, mm-hmm,support a kind of an entitlement
, uh, in that child.
But of course the other kid hasno idea that's going on.
(36:16):
It just looks like, you know,that the parent loves that child
war.
So it's, you know, it'sincredibly painful and, and
incredibly confusing.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I bet, I bet what's their experience then as a
parent and having their ownchildren, I can imagine on one
hand they would have this greatjoy at being able to provide
their child with what theydidn't get.
But I can also imagine themfeeling frustrated or unhappy
(36:48):
or, or, uh, what's the wordjealous as they see perhaps
their partner give their childthe kind of love and attention
and reflection that they neverreceived as a child.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, no, of course.
And that is, um, that's justhuman nature, you know,
I mean, um, yeah, youdon't even have an, have to have
an emotionally immature back, uh, parental background to, to
have that one Z you, because youknow, again, it's that thing
(37:25):
about, we all want to benoticed, we all wanna be loved
best.
We all wanna be special and thisis not narcissism.
It's just that we wanna be theapple of someone's eye.
Yeah.
It's the most wonderful feeling.
Right.
And so that could be hard, uh,when you have, uh, a little
(37:46):
person in the family that, youknow, has got your spouse
wrapped around their littlefinger or, you know, seems to
get a, a special tenderness thatmaybe you don't feel as often
from the spouse.
I mean, that's, that's justhard.
And so, you know, but thedifference is that the, the
(38:08):
person who's adequateadequately, emotionally mature
is able to enjoy through empathythat child's experience of
getting that attention.
So they can sort of sit back andsort of bask in the fact that,
you know, there's this goodthing going on between their
spouse and the child.
(38:30):
So that's possible.
And also, you know, when we'reemotionally adequate,
adequately, emotionally mature,nobody is totally emotionally
mature, but if we're adequately,emotionally mature, um, then we
can handle emotions likejealousy or envy.
Um, we can handle difficultemotions toward people that we
(38:53):
love because emotional maturitymeans that we have become
complex enough inside that wecan really pretty easily
tolerate conflicting emotions.
Mm-hmm like, I lovemy child and I'm jealous of the
attention that he gets or shegets.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, so, and you can rememberwhat your goal is, what you're,
(39:18):
what you're going after here andwith your child, you're trying
to raise, you know, a, a happyfunctional child.
And you realize that gettinginto a jealous, screaming match
is not gonna be consistent withthat goal.
And so we deal with our feelingsin a, you know, in a more mature
(39:41):
way and we accept them.
We're just like, you know, can'thelp, but I'm jealous
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Bothers me.
Right.
But yeah, it bothers me, but,and it's hard sometimes to
really carry both those ideasthat I have this great love for
this child and maybe I'm jealousof them or, or I also, if the
child is acting out, I love thischild.
I adore this child and they'redriving me crazy at the same
time.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
I
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Just, that's, that's maturity, that's maturity,
maturity, right.
That you can hold those twoideas in, in mind and not get
rid of, not have to get rid ofeither one of them.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Right.
And I just wanna jump on onething you said, which I thought
was very important, this conceptof adequately, emotionally
mature.
And I just wanna kind of expressthat people might think that,
oh, I've gotta kind of betotally emotionally mature, but
that's just not the case.
(40:34):
And no, none of us are, are thatwe just have to be able to kind
of see the other, the otherperson to really kind of not be
so focused on self, but be ableto open up to other person.
We still have, we still haveproblems.
We still have challenges.
There's things we do well,things we do badly, but the
(40:57):
benchmark is not so high.
We don't have to become perfect.
And I think people who aresuffering from this think that,
oh, I've gotta be, I've gottachange so much, but actually
there's a lot of opportunity inkind of modest or incremental
growth and change.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yes, absolutely.
Um, you know, that, uh, uh,concept by, um, Donald wincot
about the, the good enoughmother.
Good enough
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Parent.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Good
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Enough mother.
Totally.
That's just what I was thinkingabout.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Yeah.
Well, I, I heard once thatsomebody did research on that
and they, uh, I guess they codedmaternal behavior and then how
the kids turned out or, uh, didsome sort of research design
like that.
And what they found was that agood enough mother was good
enough.
(41:52):
Only 30% of the time.
Mm-hmm that was thekind of the cutoff mark.
Um, if you were good enough, 30%of the time the kid's gonna be
okay.
right.
Which I found enormouslyreassuring.
Reassuring.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah.
But totally.
You know, it's like, if youthink of, um, you know, if, if
you, if you think of a day andthen you think that 30% of your
waking hours are spent withsomeone who sees you, who
recognizes you, who thinks aboutyour feelings, uh, who can sit
(42:30):
down and be emotionallyintimate, listen to you about
what's really going on with you.
30% of the hours in your day arespent with a person who can do
that.
That's a lot, that's
Speaker 1 (42:42):
A
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Lot.
We, we don't spend 30% of ourwaking time with our therapists.
Right.
right.
So it's, it's enormouslyimpactful, uh, to be able to
even get a little bit of that.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Right.
And I think that's such animportant point because, um,
especially as parents, you know,if we look back, oh, I did this
so badly, I did that so badly.
I, I, you know, I, I shatteredhim or whatever, or her, but
those are kind of moments inwhich we weren't at our best,
(43:15):
but as long as we can say, oh,well I was a pretty good dad, at
least 30% of the time.
Mm-hmm that seemslike such a, a doable thing that
we can let ourselves off thehook for some of the ways in
which we were not less thanperfect as parents.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yes, yes.
Or
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Spouse or as partners.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Right.
Right.
Also people who have adequateempathy, you know, basically
they're able to put themselvesin the shoes of other people.
And that also means ourchildren, that if I see a look
on my child's face, that signalsme, that that child is in
distress or that child isfeeling unhappy.
I'm if I have adequate empathy,mm-hmm,, I'm moved
(43:59):
to do something about that.
Mm-hmm I moved toapproach the child to, um, ask
what's wrong, to give comfort,you know, to be, to show
curiosity and interest.
And if you are moved by empathyand the child and you listened
to the child and the child says,when you shouted at me, it made
(44:20):
me feel terrible.
Um, or it scared me.
You have empathy for that.
And then you will want toapologize.
Mm-hmm.
So the other part of it is thateven though we, we can't always
do the mature thing or, or dothe non-harmful thing, we can
(44:44):
fix it later, right.
By going back in and addressingthe feelings that remain from
that encounter.
And to me, that's like one ofthe most hopeful things about
all relationships is that youdon't just get one chance, uh,
to be attuned and EMPA andempathetic to your partner or to
(45:05):
your child.
You can create additionalopportunities to go back and do
some of that repair.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Right.
That's so true.
I just wanted, cuz we're gettingto the end of our time, I just
wanted to ask one, one kind oflast question or topic, which is
how do these people find helpfor recovering, for changing,
for growing what's the best,what's the best way for them to
kind of improve the situation?
(45:34):
Is it professional care or selfcare?
What works best?
What, what modalities work bestto help them?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah.
I think any kind of modalitythat seeks to put the person
back in touch with theiremotional experiences and
opening up about emotionallyintimate material.
I think those are the two thingsthat are the most helpful in
(46:00):
recovering from emotionallyimmature parents.
If, if we're, you know, talkingabout what kind of person do,
um, you know, things like, uh,yoga, uh, cognitive, behavioral
therapy, um, you know, there aremany different modalities and,
and things that help people.
Those are good, but the problemoccurred in that person's
(46:26):
emotional attachment.
Right.
And it occurred in their conceptof their self.
Okay.
So therapies and, and groupactivities, um, that support
getting to know yourself,especially your emotional self
are what I think is the mosteffective, uh, to getting to
(46:48):
where the problem occurred.
Yeah.
I think it's, I think it'senormously important and I
really like, um, emotionallyfocused therapy, which you just
mentioned.
Mm-hmm I reallylike that because it sort of
says, there's a reason whyyou're having the trouble you're
having and it has to do with howyour important people in your
(47:14):
life responded to your emotionalneeds, that whole emphasis and
the effects of shame on you.
Mm-hmm and thosekinds of, um, things that qua
your spirit, uh, that isenormously.
I always recommend to peoplethat they try some kind of EFT
oriented therapy and also, um,self-concept therapies loosely
(47:39):
mm-hmm, definedlike internal family systems.
Right.
I find to be enormously helpfultoo, because it gives you a way
of working with these differentparts of yourself.
Mm-hmm that may,you know, some parts may be, uh,
very wounded.
Other parts may be very mature.
There's usually that kind ofimbalance within the personality
(48:02):
, uh, because they had, on theone hand they had to grow up too
fast.
And on the other hand, uh, theyhave these unmet childhood needs
that really need to be addressedon an emotional level.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
Well, I have to tell you, thishas been, I can't believe, uh,
almost an hour has just zippedby this has been so interesting,
and this is such important workcuz as therapists, we see the
result of the parents' emotionalimmaturity in our office all day
long.
(48:35):
Mm-hmm, this is atheme that just comes up and
that we're dealing with on aregular basis and it causes such
pain and grief, but there's suchopportunity for people to change
and to have a much, uh, richerand, and healthier and happier
(48:57):
life with other people.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yes.
And the thing I love about, uh,this concept in therapy is that,
you know, when you get anexplanation for why you feel the
way you do mm-hmmand when your symptoms start to
make sense and when yourunhappiness starts to seem, uh,
(49:20):
explainable, it's amazing whatthat does to your sense of
efficacy, right?
To your self esteem and to yourhope for having, you know,
better relationships and abetter life with other people.
So it's very, very importantthat we, we get the story
straight and, and we understandwhat's happened to us.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Absolutely.
That's I, I couldn't agree withyou more well, Dr.
Lindsay Gibson, thank you somuch for taking the time to stop
in and talk with us today.
Uh, that was a fascinatingdiscussion and I really wanna
thank you, not only for talkingto us, but also for your work,
which I think is a, an importantcontribution.
So thanks again.
(50:02):
And I hope you have a wonderfulday.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Thank you so much for having me
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Well, that's our episode for today.
I hope we found it interestingand useful, but most of all, I'd
like to thank you for listening.
If you have a minute, please hitthe subscribe button and give us
a rating.
And I hope to see you again soonon another episode of sex, love
and couples therapy.
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's
therapist in San Francisco.
I wanna welcome you to sex loveand couple's therapy.
We all want to feel loved.
That's a universal desire, butsometimes instead of feeling
loving our relationships, feelconfusing, frustrating, and a
(00:28):
little crazy making the purposeof this podcast is to help you
clear up some of that confusionso that you and your partner can
find ways to make yourrelationship feel closer, more
connected, and more loving.
So stay tuned.
We've got a lot of great stuffto talk about, and now let's go
talk about my three favoritetopics, sex love, and couples
(00:52):
therapy.
Well, I'd like to welcometoday's guest Dr.
Lindsay Gibson.
I am incredibly excited to, tobe talking today with Dr.
Gibson, who is the author of thevery popular and, and I think
really very important book,adult children of emotionally
(01:12):
immature parents, how to healfrom distant rejecting or
self-involved parents.
Dr.
Gibson is a clinicalpsychologist in private
practice, and she specializes inindividual psychotherapy with
adult children of emotionallymature parents.
She's along with that book,she's also the author of
recovering from emotionallyimmature parents and self care
(01:34):
for adult children ofemotionally immature parents and
her recent book who you weremeant to be a guide defining or
recovering your life's purpose.
Dr.
Gibson lives in practices inVirginia Beach, Virginia, Dr.
Gibson.
Welcome, and thanks so much forcoming and talking with us
today.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh, it's a, it's a great honor to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
I wanted to just take a second to make sure that, uh,
kind of, we all have aunderstanding of what we're
talking about today, and Iwonder if you wouldn't mind just
taking a, a moment or two tokind of set the frame for what
you mean by an emotionallyimmature parent.
What does that kind of, when yousay that phrase, what comes up
(02:17):
in your mind as a picture ofthat person?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I, I, I just wanna say before I get into that, that
I've made this my life's workmm-hmm
think it is so crucial to, uh,mental health and it all over
the world, because the impact ofemotional immaturity in a parent
(02:40):
on the child is far reaching.
Um, it is very subtle and oftenunseen, but it has a huge impact
on that person's emotional life,their sense of self-esteem and
their ability to have rewardingrelationships.
So what do we mean when we sayemotionally immature?
(03:02):
Well, emotional immaturity is,um, when something goes wrong in
that very specific line ofdevelopment, psychologically,
that has to do with managingyour emotions and integrating,
uh, your emotions into yourpersonality in such a way that
(03:22):
your emotions serve you instead,overwhelming you.
So something goes wrong, whetherit's, um, uh, you know, a
congenital or neurologicalproblem, or whether it's an
environmental problem, such asabuse, emotionally, immature,
people just don't grow upemotionally.
(03:45):
Now they may grow upintellectually.
Uh, they may be very smart.
They may be brilliant.
They may be, um, uh, you know,very effective leader.
They may be the head of a bigbusiness.
I mean, it doesn't impair theirfunctioning, but when it comes
to intimate relationships ofwhich, you know, parent child
(04:05):
relationships are, are like ahuge example of that.
They have a lot of troubleallowing other people to be
themselves and to set their ownlimits and their own boundaries.
Instead, the emotionallyimmature person, like the three
year old, um, wants you to beall theirs, uh, to mirror them,
(04:28):
to be just like them and makesthem feel secure, uh, to
regulate their emotionalstability for them.
And to make sure that youbolster their self-esteem.
I, I call that the emotionalimmature relationship system,
meaning that I expect you, ifI'm emotionally immature to
(04:50):
regulate me, my self-esteem myemotional stability.
And if you don't, that meansthat you don't love me.
Mm-hmm
you, or I have to punish you,or, you know, something has to
go wrong, but that's just asketch of, uh, what happens in
people who are emotionallyimmature and you can apply all
(05:13):
of that to the way that a parentwould treat a child, right?
Like there would be, uh,impaired empathy.
Um, there would be, uh,quickness to anger or punish.
There would be that expectationthat the child hide themselves
mm-hmm
(05:35):
wants to see.
So yeah.
Self development becomes verytricky with parents like that.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, no, you can imagine that.
I think that's a, a greatdescription.
It, the way I look at it fromthat description, it changes the
role of the child.
So in an, if I have a moremature parent, then the parent
feels themselves separate, bothseparate from the child, but
also the parent is in a sense inservice of the child yes.
And caring for them bothphysically and emotionally, but
(06:03):
in the parent that you justdescribed, the child is in
service of the parent.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Exactly.
Right.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
And you can imagine how difficult that is for the
child to grow up in a world inwhich they are clearly
responsible for the care oftheir parents' kind of emotional
regulation and emotional needs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what a burden that places onthe child.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah.
And, you know, the tragic thingabout it is that the child is
not aware that they're carryinga burden because they have
always been in that predicament.
So it feels normal.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah.
And I was wondering, cuz I, Icompletely agree with you about
how important this work is.
Um, and the IM the tremendousimpact this has on so many
individuals as they grow up, youknow, I can imagine, uh,
parent's emotional maturity orimmaturity might exist on a
scale from, you know, um, subtleor mild to profound.
(07:05):
And I wonder how big a problemare we dealing with?
I mean, what kind of, do youhave a sense of what percentage
of parents might fall into oneof these categories of having
emotional and maturity thatmight have a substantial impact
on a child?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
I don't have a feel for how many, I can just tell
you how popular the books been.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
I was gonna bring that up.
That the book has beenincredibly popular
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So, um, my sense of it is thatwith, um, when I look at my
clientele, which is really thesource of, of my, uh, research,
my field research, right?
Um, yeah.
People who suffer from anxiety,um, and depression, but more so
anxiety.
(07:56):
Those are people that I find ahigh likelihood that they have
had some kind of experienceswith emotional, significant
emotionally immature people intheir past.
So I, I don't know the numbers,but I would say that this is
probably much more widespreadthan anybody would think.
(08:18):
Um, if we just, you know, usedthat term emotionally immature
appearance, I'm sure a lot ofpeople wouldn't consider that
they had those kinds of parentsuntil they understood what, what
, what they, uh, actually arelike,
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Well, I think there's a lot of value from my point of
view.
And I wonder what your thoughtis, is this using the term
emotionally immature parent, asopposed to a more, uh, technical
diagnosis of narcissisticpersonality disorder or be
borderline personality disorder.
And I wonder what your thoughtsare about using your more
(08:52):
umbrella term, as opposed tothose more kind of technical Def
uh, diagnoses.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah.
Well, it's kind of like allthose, um, diagnoses that you
just mentioned to my way ofthinking are indicators of
emotional immaturity.
Mm-hmm,
perspective.
Right.
Um, that's how I was trained andthat's what has been born out in
, in my experience as well.
(09:18):
The diagnostic categories thatyou just mentioned, um, do fall
under what I consider thatumbrella term of emotional
immaturity.
And I wanted to keep it broadand, uh, a little bit undefined
that way mm-hmm,
want people to feel like theyhad to betray their parent by
(09:39):
giving them a, a right, you know, label pathological diagnosis,
a label.
Yeah.
Correct.
Yeah.
Um, and I also recognize thatthere are a bunch of different
types of people that are what Iwould consider to be emotionally
immature.
Um, but they may not necessarilymeet the DSM categories.
(09:59):
Mm-hmm,
And they may actually appear tobe very nice people, very kindly
people they might even be seenas the favorite parent, um, in
the family.
But when you actually look atthe degree of their empathy,
their ability to, um, take otherpeople's needs into account and
(10:24):
their ability to engage in realemotional intimacy with other
people that is relationships ata, at a deeper, more profound
level, they really are immature.
So there just are a lot ofdifferent ways that a, a person
can formulate a personality andyet still have that under
(10:47):
structuring of immaturity.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
Yeah.
That's very interesting.
And, and I think that idea ofnot ha asking them to portray a
parent, I think it's veryimportant because even as
adults, even when, once we'reaware of kind of our parents'
limitations, there's atremendous resistance to really
kind of speaking badly or, oracknowledging some of those
(11:13):
issues.
And I thought one of the things,one of the quotes that I was
really impressed with from, fromthe book is this question of how
the child, how the adult childbegins to come to terms with the
kind of childhood he or she hadand how difficult that can be.
(11:33):
And especially if they werephysically well cared for it's
one thing, if you werephysically abused or de
deprived, and you can point tothat, but if you are physically
well cared for, it becomes moredifficult to really see it.
And the quote you had is beingwell cared for in non-emotional
(11:54):
areas can create confusion inpeople who grow up feeling
emotionally lonely.
They have overwhelming physicalevidence that their parents
loved and sacrificed for them,but they feel a painful lack of
emotional security and closenesswith their parents.
Yeah.
And that's such a, I see so manyof my clients who show that same
(12:16):
question or issue when I kind ofsuggest some questions about
their parents, they say, oh, no,no, no.
I was really well taken care of,you know, I went to the best
schools.
I went to summer camp, wetraveled and it's takes quite a
while for them to feelcomfortable enough to kind of
(12:37):
have that connection with ohyeah.
But there was this other part
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (12:41):
That I never felt.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And I still don't feel
Speaker 2 (12:46):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
And that points also to, uh,that thing about how do we, uh,
how do we learn to know whatwe're feeling?
Yeah.
Because we aren't born knowingwhat our feelings are.
We're born with a bunch ofsensations, um, bunch of, uh,
body experiences, but it reallydepends on the parent noticing
(13:13):
the child's, uh, emotionalreactions and then putting words
and names on those emotions.
So, uh, the emotionally immatureparent, not being very attuned,
um, to other people's emotionalexperiences is not gonna look at
their child and say, oh honey,you look like you're feeling
emotionally lonely.
(13:33):
Perhaps you're not gettingenough connection.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Not gonna happen.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so yes, they, they have thephysical sensations.
They have that, that feeling,but they would not be conscious
of it or in any way know what itwas connected to.
Right.
But, you know, I think one ofthe most, um, poignant and in
some ways, beautiful thingthough, Jacob is that apparently
(14:03):
we are wired for love.
Mm-hmm,
connection with other people.
To me, that is the mostmarvelous attribute
we have.
And when we don't get it, whenwe can't connect with somebody
at a deep enough level, it doessomething to us.
(14:27):
It's like, we're, we're missinga vital nutrient.
And of course, you know, in, inyour work, in, in your specialty
area, um, I'm sure that you'redealing with people all the time
who are essentially feeling likethey're missing essential
nutrients in theirrelationships.
Right.
But you might not have any ideawhat to call that.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Right?
No, that's so true.
And I think it's one of the moreheartbreaking moments of being a
couple's therapist.
When you see a couple of whichone partner is unable to kind of
take in the nutrients that theirO that their partners trying
desperately to give them.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Mm-hmm,
they're so loving them, but it'skind of goes past them.
It kind of goes through themwithout sticking.
And that kind of reminds me ofyou, the quote, that also from
your book that these people,these Cho adult children often
settle for emotional lonelinessin their relationships, because
(15:33):
it feels normal to them liketheir early home life.
And, and this just goes back towhat you were just saying about
the lack of attunement and thelack of reflection, accurate
reflection of what they'refeeling.
That they've never felt thatemotional fullness
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (15:52):
And so they take that loneliness into their
relationships and they are stillnot able to feel those
nutrients.
And that's just heartbreakingsometimes.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, it really is because it's sort of like, how
do you, um, how do you increasethat receptive capacity in a
person who doesn't recognizewhat they're being given and is,
you know, sometimes, uh,confused or, um, threatened by
it.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
That makes a lot of sense that, that they might be
threatened by this, but I'mwondering as these children, oh,
first one last quick questionabout the emotionally immature
parent, and you talked about it,they might even be the favored
parent.
I wonder is your experience, Imean, not this isn't
quantitative or statistical, butjust your experience that this
(16:43):
tends to be more the father orthe mother.
Do you have a gender feel aboutthis?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
No, I really don't because every time I start to
think, oh, it's more the dad or,oh, it's more the mom, I get
another example of the opposite.
Right.
Um, and, and we're prettyfamiliar in, in therapy with
family dynamics where we have amother who, you know, may be
(17:11):
quite loving toward thechildren, may be, you know, more
gentle, have gentle person havea nicer temperament
would be the, what I call thepassive emotionally immature
parent.
But when it comes right down toit, they're not gonna protect
that kid.
Mm-hmm
parent who may be quiterejecting or even abusive.
(17:34):
Right.
Um, because their response, thepassive types response is to
sort of glide over things andteach the child to not make a
big deal about, uh, hurts orthings that happen.
And so you can have that kindof, of mother we're familiar
with, with mm-hmm
(17:57):
the family situation where themother is maybe more
narcissistic, um, uh, entitledimperious, critical, uh,
perfectionistic.
And then you have a dad who sortof facilitates her running the
show.
He protects her, he makesexcuses for her.
(18:18):
He counsels the children to justgo along.
So mom doesn't get upset, youknow, so we can see in both of
those examples that this is akind of a passive, emotional
immaturity coming out in bothgendered parents.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Right.
You know, it's interesting whatyou, those descriptions also
really remind me of what we seein people who grew up in
alcoholic households.
And I'm wondering what, in yourmind, if any kind of connection
you make between, you know, um,growing up as a, a child of
(18:56):
alcoholism versus a, a child ofa immature emotionally immature
parent.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah.
Well, you can think of it as anykind of drug use, any kind of
abuse of intoxicants helps youfeel like you're coping.
Correct.
Um, it reduces stress, uh, ittakes pressure off and it makes
you feel okay.
(19:24):
Basically.
Mm-hmm,
intoxicants, right?
Yeah.
So emotionally immature people,um, are often not up to the
tasks and the pressures and thestresses of adult life at an
emotional level.
And so they, uh, they reallyneed help in dealing with
(19:46):
stress.
And because like we've beensaying they have trouble taking
in support from other peoplebecause they're not used to it.
And they don't know quite whatto do with it.
Then it makes sense that theywould try to handle this on
their own, right.
Through some kind of substanceor some kind of activity, uh,
could be a lot of acting outthat goes on as well.
(20:07):
Mm-hmm
to center them or, um, sort ofbring them into alignment again.
So I think that there are a lotof similarities because
addiction is a way of copingwithout using support from other
people.
Um, right.
And without really looking atwhat the emotional issues are
(20:28):
underneath,
Speaker 1 (20:29):
That makes a lot of sense.
So I'm wondering as take, youknow, these emotionally, these
adult children, and we look atthem in relationships cuz they,
as they grow up and go intorelationships, I wonder how do
you see them dealing with the,both the joys and the challenges
and the difficulties?
(20:49):
What, what are they like aspartners for, you know, example,
how do they be, how do theyapproach relationships as they
grow up?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah.
Well, think about it in terms ofwhat they have, um, had to
practice and get good at intheir relationship in their
families, especially with theirparents.
Um, they have had to, uh,tolerate a one-sided
relationship with the parentwhere the parent is, um,
(21:20):
basically not aware of andtherefore not very interested in
what's going on inside thatchild.
So the child learns that mysubjective experience is not
important.
In fact, it causes problems.
It annoys people, it's it's, uh,a burden or nuisance to people.
(21:41):
So if I'm gonna have a closerelationship, then I need to
hide that.
And like you said earlier, servebe of service to the person that
, um, I'm getting into arelationship with.
So they go into relationshipsexpecting to do all the
emotional work that is, uh,they're gonna, they're gonna be
(22:05):
the one with empathy.
They're gonna be the one who,um, has to tell their partner
how to be a grownup, um, in, intheir parenting or how to take
responsibility or how to be moresensitive.
They're always workingemotionally, uh, to try to bring
their partner up to speed andthey expect relationships to be
(22:26):
frustrating.
Uh, they don't expectrelationships to be enriching.
I don't know how many peopleI've had, who will talk about,
um, they'll say things like,well, I know relationships, uh,
take a lot of work, right?
I'm thinking, no they don't.
Um,
(22:47):
relationship and you have to beaware and you have to try and
all that.
But these are people who aretruly working at their
relationships, um, and notgetting very far.
So that feels normal to a personwho has had to take on the
responsibility of, uh, caringfor the emotional needs of their
(23:12):
parent, for instance.
And also, um, they have learnedthat you put other people first,
uh, that self-sacrifice is thehighest good in a relationship.
Now, interestingly, there's ashadow side to this underneath
that there is a lonely woundedneglected child, part of
(23:35):
themselves, right?
Who is hoping for a partner whowill finally finally give them
the love that they never got andwho will be sensitively attuned
to what they need without thereever having to ask for it.
You know, that for these adultchildren would be, oh, that just
(23:59):
the greatest good in terms ofwhat you could expect from a
relationship that I don't haveto tell you what I need.
You notice what I need and giveit to me.
Now, the, the shadow side ofthis is that sometimes that part
can get very strong and a lot ofthe suppressed anger that they
(24:23):
have toward a parent who was notsensitive to their needs, who
didn't guess what they werefeeling or what they needed,
that anger comes up and getsexpressed toward that partner.
But they have no idea that itit's coming from an old source
of pain.
Right.
In addition to whatever thepartner's really doing.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Right.
But it right.
So the part, yeah, so thepartner really becomes this
constant source, which youtalked about frustration of why
don't they really see me?
Why don't they really understandwhat I need?
You know, they should know, andthey get there's this constant
anger at the partner ordissatisfaction without, as you
pointed out, recognizing thatthat dissatisfaction was
(25:07):
something or that loneliness andemptiness, they brought to the
relationship that this is partof them rather than at the
partner's, you know, failure.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
And yes.
And, and the other thing thatthey bring to the relationship,
I just wanna, um, mention hereis they bring a passivity about
asking for what they need orexplaining what they need.
Um, because if they ever did getsomething good from their
parent, it was probably when momor dad was having a good day or,
(25:40):
you know, feeling, uh, flushabout life and they gave gifts
or they, they, uh, read them astory or they did something kind
and sweet with them, but itwasn't because the child went to
them in a state of great needand the parent met the need.
It was that the parent wasfeeling good.
Right.
You know?
(26:00):
And so there's like this, acausal overflow of giving mm-hmm
Yeah.
And so the child learns thatI've gotta sit back and wait for
somebody to guess what I need,because when I ask for it, it
turns people off.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Right.
And to me, you know, the way Ilook at things that also
resonates with the question ofkind of this deep sense of shame
that they carry that, whichprevents them from actually
saying, yeah, I, I, I need thisfrom you.
I want this from you.
That, that, it's very hard forthem to feel that they have the
(26:38):
ability, the right, or that it'sgonna turn out well at all.
If they actually name howthey're feeling.
And that continues to be thisblock, because they both can't
name it or express it and theyexpect the partner to divine it,
to know it.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yes.
And that becomes, that becomesproof of love.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Right.
Right.
You expressed that really wellin the book, we said that they
believe if they want closeness,they must play a role that
always puts the other personfirst.
And then later the biggestrelationship downfall is being
overly sacrificing and thenbecoming resentful at how much
they do for the other.
(27:23):
Yes.
So it's this terrible dilemmathat they, that they find
themselves in all the time.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yes.
And they've also learned thatit's necessary to persevere.
That is you have to go for along time in between rewards.
Um, and it's, it's that wholething about intermittent
reinforcement, right?
That when you, when things arenot going the way you want them
(27:48):
to, you have to double down andendure until something shifts or
something changes.
And that willingness to perpersevere with unsatisfying
connections is one of the thingsthat, you know, holds people
together.
Mm-hmm,
(28:10):
it's kind of a, a hope that'smisplaced because the right the
situation is really not beingaddressed, but that's okay.
Because they've learned that ifI persevere long enough, mom
will be in a good mood or dadwill, uh, you know, uh, be happy
to see me or, you know, butit's, they're just too
(28:31):
accommodating and too hopefulabout things turning around on
their own.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
You can imagine these kind of, it's like these little
Oasis in the desert, but theyhave to travel for months, bet
from, from one water hole to thenext, they learned how to do
that as a child, you know?
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And, and they keep expecting that, oh yeah, just a
little longer, they'll be, we'llreach another water hole with my
husband or my wife, but theydon't.
And the last part of that isthat they then think that's the
failing of the partner, asopposed to their problem of
seeing the, the nutrients thatare already around them, that,
(29:14):
that they're always in a water,in a water hole at a Oasis.
And they just haven't figuredout how to see it and how to
drink from it.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yes.
Yeah.
And then there's, you know, uh,that other issue too, which is,
am I worthy?
Right.
Um, to be given these thingsthat that's a very deep one,
because a lot of timesemotionally mature parents give
their children that impressionthat they're not worthy.
(29:43):
Uh, they're not, um, even basicentitlements to, uh, being
treated with respect or havingboundaries observed or listening
or seeing, or noticing, youknow, some of these things, uh,
that the kids are not worthy ofthat kind of parental, uh,
emotional attention.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
And I'm wondering do, um, the children, when they grow
up, do they tend to marry peopleor get in relationship with,
with people that are kind ofreenactments of that childhood?
Do they, do they then getinvolved with other emotionally
immature people or how do theythen kind of seek out partners
(30:25):
in the world?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
Yeah.
I, I, I think that certainlyhappens a lot.
I mean, a lot of the people thatI would see for, um, basically
adjustment, uh, disorderspertaining to a marriage would
be that kind of thing, wherethey got involved with someone,
they accepted the premise thatthis is supposed to be a lot of
work.
(30:48):
Um, it's up to me to make a goodrelationship.
Uh
I just have to sort of, uh, youknow, endure this and then, you
know, a few years later, orwhenever along comes a person
who really does make aconnection with them.
And so the first choice might bea person who is like the family
(31:13):
shares.
A lot of those dynamics treatsthem very similarly to that.
Mm-hmm
And then maybe in a laterrelationship, as they have
really kind of become consciousof, of the pain in that first,
um, right.
Uh, dysfunctional relationship,they become more conscious of
the pain and more self-aware.
(31:33):
They really are more emotionallyavailable for a good
relationship.
And they can, you know, end upwith a, a good person, but I've
seen a lot of people.
Um, these tended to be peoplewho had some saving graces in
their history, you know, likethey had a grandmother or they
had a teacher, or they had afriend's parent who kind of gave
(31:57):
them more attention andnurturing, um, than they
would've otherwise had.
And those people sometimesreally find good mates early,
right.
Are relatively early.
Um, and they, and they have goodrelationships that continue.
And it's really wonderful whenyou see how, you know, they have
(32:22):
good communication, they havegood empathy for each other.
They have fun with each other.
They feel safe with each other.
Those relationships with yourpartner can happen even, you
know, if you have emotionallyimmature parents and I'm sure it
has something to do with some oftheir, um, you know, kind of, uh
(32:42):
, saving experiences with, withnurturing people in their past.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
Right, right.
It's it's so, that's sointeresting cuz we see that with
kids in lots of different waysthat who have had very difficult
, uh, childhoods or childhoodsof that are abusive or, um,
deprivation that, that oneteacher who paid attention to
them, mm-hmm
(33:09):
a relatively short relationship,has a profound impact on their
later life.
Mm-hmm
supposed to interact with eachother.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah.
And the other interestingquestion, uh, about that is, is
it that they had those people oris it that they noticed that
they had those people?
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Uh, yeah,
Speaker 2 (33:34):
That's a,
Speaker 1 (33:34):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Yeah, because maybe, um, some of the other children
who didn't emotionally mature inthe same way, maybe they had
caring people too.
Right.
But for whatever reason,couldn't take it in or couldn't
um, couldn't recognize it.
It's we'll never know the answerto that one, but it it's
(33:56):
interesting.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
It's a, but it's a great point because sometimes no
matter what, someone's notavailable, not able to kind of
notice or see the things thatthey have that are gonna right
in front of them.
And, but that's just a, a signof how profoundly they've been
kind of damaged by that kind ofearly system.
(34:18):
Yes.
Of not really being, beingnoticed.
Yeah.
You know, I was wondering onelast thing about this topic.
I can imagine also, cuz youknow, I'm a, an EFT therapist is
we talk about attachment all thetime.
And sometimes what happens is ina family, a parent is able to
attune better to one child thanto another just cuz of either
(34:42):
circumstances or their personinnate personalities or what's
happened.
And so I can imagine it beingvery confusing that a child
might grow up, let's say there'stwo or three kids and they feel
emotionally lonely in a way atwhich their siblings don't.
That might be very, you can justimagine how painful that would
(35:04):
be for them to kind of feel thisway within that system.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yes, absolutely.
Um, what I have noticed a lotthough in the histories of my
clients is that that other childthat seems to get all the
parents attention, uh, that isvery much seen as the favorite
or kind of gets away with murderand, and my client grew up, um,
(35:32):
kind of having to, um, defer tothe needs of that sibling and so
forth.
A lot of times that closenesswith the emotionally immature
parent is not what we mean bycloseness mm-hmm
um, it is more of an enmeshright where the parent sort of
(35:53):
sees a reflection of their ownchild self in that particular
child.
And then they become very mergedpsychologically with that child
and become indulgent.
And uh, mm-hmm,
, uh, in that child.
But of course the other kid hasno idea that's going on.
(36:16):
It just looks like, you know,that the parent loves that child
war.
So it's, you know, it'sincredibly painful and, and
incredibly confusing.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I bet, I bet what's their experience then as a
parent and having their ownchildren, I can imagine on one
hand they would have this greatjoy at being able to provide
their child with what theydidn't get.
But I can also imagine themfeeling frustrated or unhappy
(36:48):
or, or, uh, what's the wordjealous as they see perhaps
their partner give their childthe kind of love and attention
and reflection that they neverreceived as a child.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
Yeah, no, of course.
And that is, um, that's justhuman nature, you know,
an emotionally immature back, uh, parental background to, to
have that one Z you, because youknow, again, it's that thing
(37:25):
about, we all want to benoticed, we all wanna be loved
best.
We all wanna be special and thisis not narcissism.
It's just that we wanna be theapple of someone's eye.
Yeah.
It's the most wonderful feeling.
Right.
And so that could be hard, uh,when you have, uh, a little
(37:46):
person in the family that, youknow, has got your spouse
wrapped around their littlefinger or, you know, seems to
get a, a special tenderness thatmaybe you don't feel as often
from the spouse.
I mean, that's, that's justhard.
And so, you know, but thedifference is that the, the
(38:08):
person who's adequateadequately, emotionally mature
is able to enjoy through empathythat child's experience of
getting that attention.
So they can sort of sit back andsort of bask in the fact that,
you know, there's this goodthing going on between their
spouse and the child.
(38:30):
So that's possible.
And also, you know, when we'reemotionally adequate,
adequately, emotionally mature,nobody is totally emotionally
mature, but if we're adequately,emotionally mature, um, then we
can handle emotions likejealousy or envy.
Um, we can handle difficultemotions toward people that we
(38:53):
love because emotional maturitymeans that we have become
complex enough inside that wecan really pretty easily
tolerate conflicting emotions.
Mm-hmm
attention that he gets or shegets.
Yeah.
Right.
Um, so, and you can rememberwhat your goal is, what you're,
(39:18):
what you're going after here andwith your child, you're trying
to raise, you know, a, a happyfunctional child.
And you realize that gettinginto a jealous, screaming match
is not gonna be consistent withthat goal
And so we deal with our feelingsin a, you know, in a more mature
(39:41):
way and we accept them.
We're just like, you know, can'thelp, but I'm jealous
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Bothers me.
Right.
But yeah, it bothers me, but,and it's hard sometimes to
really carry both those ideasthat I have this great love for
this child and maybe I'm jealousof them or, or I also, if the
child is acting out, I love thischild.
I adore this child and they'redriving me crazy at the same
time.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
I
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Just, that's, that's maturity, that's maturity,
maturity, right.
That you can hold those twoideas in, in mind and not get
rid of, not have to get rid ofeither one of them.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Right.
And I just wanna jump on onething you said, which I thought
was very important, this conceptof adequately, emotionally
mature.
And I just wanna kind of expressthat people might think that,
oh, I've gotta kind of betotally emotionally mature, but
that's just not the case.
(40:34):
And no, none of us are, are thatwe just have to be able to kind
of see the other, the otherperson to really kind of not be
so focused on self, but be ableto open up to other person.
We still have, we still haveproblems.
We still have challenges.
There's things we do well,things we do badly, but the
(40:57):
benchmark is not so high.
We don't have to become perfect.
And I think people who aresuffering from this think that,
oh, I've gotta be, I've gottachange so much, but actually
there's a lot of opportunity inkind of modest or incremental
growth and change.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Yes, absolutely.
Um, you know, that, uh, uh,concept by, um, Donald wincot
about the, the good enoughmother.
Good enough
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Parent.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Good
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Enough mother.
Totally.
That's just what I was thinkingabout.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Yeah.
Well, I, I heard once thatsomebody did research on that
and they, uh, I guess they codedmaternal behavior and then how
the kids turned out or, uh, didsome sort of research design
like that.
And what they found was that agood enough mother was good
enough.
(41:52):
Only 30% of the time.
Mm-hmm
Um, if you were good enough, 30%of the time the kid's gonna be
okay.
Which I found enormouslyreassuring.
Reassuring.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Yeah.
But totally.
You know, it's like, if youthink of, um, you know, if, if
you, if you think of a day andthen you think that 30% of your
waking hours are spent withsomeone who sees you, who
recognizes you, who thinks aboutyour feelings, uh, who can sit
(42:30):
down and be emotionallyintimate, listen to you about
what's really going on with you.
30% of the hours in your day arespent with a person who can do
that.
That's a lot, that's
Speaker 1 (42:42):
A
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Lot.
We, we don't spend 30% of ourwaking time with our therapists.
Right.
So it's, it's enormouslyimpactful, uh, to be able to
even get a little bit of that.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
Right.
And I think that's such animportant point because, um,
especially as parents, you know,if we look back, oh, I did this
so badly, I did that so badly.
I, I, you know, I, I shatteredhim or whatever, or her, but
those are kind of moments inwhich we weren't at our best,
(43:15):
but as long as we can say, oh,well I was a pretty good dad, at
least 30% of the time.
Mm-hmm
we can let ourselves off thehook for some of the ways in
which we were not less thanperfect as parents.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yes, yes.
Or
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Spouse or as partners.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Right.
Right.
Also people who have adequateempathy, you know, basically
they're able to put themselvesin the shoes of other people.
And that also means ourchildren, that if I see a look
on my child's face, that signalsme, that that child is in
distress or that child isfeeling unhappy.
I'm if I have adequate empathy,mm-hmm,
(43:59):
to do something about that.
Mm-hmm
what's wrong, to give comfort,you know, to be, to show
curiosity and interest.
And if you are moved by empathyand the child and you listened
to the child and the child says,when you shouted at me, it made
(44:20):
me feel terrible.
Um, or it scared me.
You have empathy for that.
And then you will want toapologize.
Mm-hmm
So the other part of it is thateven though we, we can't always
do the mature thing or, or dothe non-harmful thing, we can
(44:44):
fix it later, right.
By going back in and addressingthe feelings that remain from
that encounter.
And to me, that's like one ofthe most hopeful things about
all relationships is that youdon't just get one chance, uh,
to be attuned and EMPA andempathetic to your partner or to
(45:05):
your child.
You can create additionalopportunities to go back and do
some of that repair.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Right.
That's so true.
I just wanted, cuz we're gettingto the end of our time, I just
wanted to ask one, one kind oflast question or topic, which is
how do these people find helpfor recovering, for changing,
for growing what's the best,what's the best way for them to
kind of improve the situation?
(45:34):
Is it professional care or selfcare?
What works best?
What, what modalities work bestto help them?
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yeah.
I think any kind of modalitythat seeks to put the person
back in touch with theiremotional experiences and
opening up about emotionallyintimate material.
I think those are the two thingsthat are the most helpful in
(46:00):
recovering from emotionallyimmature parents.
If, if we're, you know, talkingabout what kind of person do,
um, you know, things like, uh,yoga, uh, cognitive, behavioral
therapy, um, you know, there aremany different modalities and,
and things that help people.
Those are good, but the problemoccurred in that person's
(46:26):
emotional attachment.
Right.
And it occurred in their conceptof their self.
Okay.
So therapies and, and groupactivities, um, that support
getting to know yourself,especially your emotional self
are what I think is the mosteffective, uh, to getting to
(46:48):
where the problem occurred.
Yeah.
I think it's, I think it'senormously important and I
really like, um, emotionallyfocused therapy, which you just
mentioned.
Mm-hmm
says, there's a reason whyyou're having the trouble you're
having and it has to do with howyour important people in your
(47:14):
life responded to your emotionalneeds, that whole emphasis and
the effects of shame on you.
Mm-hmm
your spirit, uh, that isenormously.
I always recommend to peoplethat they try some kind of EFT
oriented therapy and also, um,self-concept therapies loosely
(47:39):
mm-hmm,
Right.
I find to be enormously helpfultoo, because it gives you a way
of working with these differentparts of yourself.
Mm-hmm
very wounded.
Other parts may be very mature.
There's usually that kind ofimbalance within the personality
(48:02):
, uh, because they had, on theone hand they had to grow up too
fast.
And on the other hand, uh, theyhave these unmet childhood needs
that really need to be addressedon an emotional level.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah.
Thank you for that.
Well, I have to tell you, thishas been, I can't believe, uh,
almost an hour has just zippedby this has been so interesting,
and this is such important workcuz as therapists, we see the
result of the parents' emotionalimmaturity in our office all day
long.
(48:35):
Mm-hmm
that we're dealing with on aregular basis and it causes such
pain and grief, but there's suchopportunity for people to change
and to have a much, uh, richerand, and healthier and happier
(48:57):
life with other people.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yes.
And the thing I love about, uh,this concept in therapy is that,
you know, when you get anexplanation for why you feel the
way you do mm-hmm
make sense and when yourunhappiness starts to seem, uh,
(49:20):
explainable, it's amazing whatthat does to your sense of
efficacy, right?
To your self esteem and to yourhope for having, you know,
better relationships and abetter life with other people.
So it's very, very importantthat we, we get the story
straight and, and we understandwhat's happened to us.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Absolutely.
That's I, I couldn't agree withyou more well, Dr.
Lindsay Gibson, thank you somuch for taking the time to stop
in and talk with us today.
Uh, that was a fascinatingdiscussion and I really wanna
thank you, not only for talkingto us, but also for your work,
which I think is a, an importantcontribution.
So thanks again.
(50:02):
And I hope you have a wonderfulday.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
Thank you so much for having me
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Well, that's our episode for today.
I hope we found it interestingand useful, but most of all, I'd
like to thank you for listening.
If you have a minute, please hitthe subscribe button and give us
a rating.
And I hope to see you again soonon another episode of sex, love
and couples therapy.
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