July 5, 2022 • 49 mins
What is ENM - Ethical Non Monogamy? What does ENM mean? How can you have a deep, meaningful, and secure relationship with multiple partners? These are the difficult questions that my guest Jessica Fern will answer.
The world has always treated poly relationships as second-class, not "real" relationships. But in her groundbreaking book, Jessica Fern shows how ENM relationships can carry the same deep meaning and provide secure attachment as monogamous relationships.
Jessica is a psychotherapist specializing in polyamory, and the author of the very successful and important book Poly Secure: Attachment, Trauma, and Consensual Nonmonogamy. Jessica will explain the basics of an ENM relationship and how to create secure attachments with multiple partners.
Here's a link to Jessica Fern's book
Here's a link to Jessica Fern's website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's
therapist in San Francisco.
I wanna welcome you to sex loveand couple's therapy.
We all want to feel loved.
That's a universal desire, butsometimes instead of feeling
loving our relationships, feelconfusing, frustrating, and a
(00:28):
little crazy making the purposeof this podcast is to help you
clear up some of that confusionso that you and your partner can
find ways to make yourrelationship feel closer, more
connected, and more loving.
So stay tuned.
We've got a lot of great stuffto talk about, and now let's go
talk about my three favoritetopics, sex love, and couples
(00:52):
therapy.
Hi, and welcome to sex love andcouples therapy.
I'm very, very pleased today tohave, as my guest, Jessica Fern,
Jessica is a psychotherapistpublic speaker and trauma and
relationship expert, and theauthor of what I think is an
(01:13):
extremely important book, polysecure attachment trauma and
consensual non-monogamy.
I just wanna kind of take asecond to set this up a little
bit in the sense that talkingabout attachment, cuz in my
experience, listening to otherpodcasts or interviews, when
people talk about polyamory,it's often around kind of the
(01:36):
mechanics.
Yeah.
You know, who sleeps with who,when, what happens, what's the
hierarchy, all this sort ofstuff.
And what to me is kind of avoyeuristic kind of approach.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And I really want to be try hard not to replicate
that.
Mm I'm hoping that what we cando is look at polyamory kind of
through the lens that you'vecreated in your book of, of
attachment.
But as you know, and as you talkabout your book, attachment
theory, especially adultattachment theory is based on
(02:10):
the assumption of monogamy.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And actually pathologizes polyamory as
evidence of a non-secureattachment.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
And I just thought that that was such an important
distinction that you've kind ofbrought up there and that you've
really, I, from my point of viewkind of broke a new ground in
extending attachment theory toinclude people in non-monogamous
relationships.
And I just think that's anextraordinary thing to do.
And it was just a wonderfuladdition.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Mm thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I wonder my
kind of last little setup is the
words polyamory mm-hmm consensual, non
monogamy are kind of tossedaround
Speaker 2 (03:00):
As synonymous, right?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah.
As synonymous.
Right.
And so for our discussion, Iwonder, I'm not asking you to
kind of do a full education, butif you could create a little bit
of a frame of what is it we'retalking about today, when you
say polyamory so that the guestskind of we're all on the same
page to start with.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Right.
Great.
Well, I'll say con yeah.
Consensual non-monogamy would bethe umbrella term for all the
different ways, which includespolyamory.
Um, but isn't limited topolyamory that there's more than
one sexual or romantic partnerand that consensual part is key,
everybody know.
Right.
Which is different thancheating.
(03:43):
Right.
Which would be non-consensualnon monogamy.
Right.
Um, so polyamorous specificallypeople who, you know, poly as
many and Amory as Amor lovewhere I'm having many loves
right.
Partners that I'm falling inlove with.
And so in that case, which isdifferent than people that might
(04:05):
do a version of non monogamywhere they might have one
partner that they're in lovewith and other partners that
they're more casual and sexualwith.
Right.
And there's many ways again todo it.
Right.
So polyamory is, yes.
I have multiple people I'm inlove with and multiple people
that I consider an attachmentbased kind of relationship.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Interesting.
That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, and, and kind of alast question.
If I think of myself, I viewmyself as a, a cisgender man.
So that's my kind of sexual, mygender identity.
Mm-hmm and mysexual identity, as I'm straight
though, I can imagine somewiggle room there for me.
(04:44):
Mm-hmm but I alsothink of let's call it my
relationship identity as beingmonogamous.
Yes.
My wife and I have been togetherfor 40 years in a monogamous
relationship.
So that's kind of what I'mattracted to and what I connect
with.
And I wonder when we think ofpolyamory or a polyamorous
(05:05):
person, where does polyamory fitin there?
Is that kind of baked in theway?
I might think of my, my genderidentity being baked in mm-hmm
or how do you seebeing what it means to be a
polyamorous person?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah.
And it's interesting cuz manypeople do like on certain dating
apps, you can identify aspolysexual as your sexual
orientation.
So some people are labeling itthat way that your orientation
is too more like one partner ormany.
I think of it as therelationship structure.
Right.
So you're saying right, youprefer the monogamous
(05:42):
relationship structure and likethings like sexual orientation
or gender.
I see it as existing on aspectrum, you know, with sort of
monogamy on one end polyamory onthe other.
And there's a lot going on inthe middle here.
It's not a rigid binary by anymeans.
And so as one of the things Ibring up in the book, which of
course is, you know, a can be acontentious topic for some
(06:07):
people, is that some peoplereally do feel like it's an iden
, it's a, an orientation forthem.
It's not just a lifestyle choicethat they're choosing.
Cuz I like it.
Or I align with it.
You know, they actually feellike this is fundamentally who
they are.
And so I see people that dopolyamory as a lifestyle choice
(06:28):
and I see people who deeply feellike there's no other way for
them to be it's an orientation.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Oh, that's so interesting that people can
exist on that spectrum.
That's very interesting.
I never thought of it quite thatway.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I don't wannatrivialize it, but I think of
it, like let's take somethinglike food choices, our diet,
right.
Mm-hmm so I have asevere gluten allergy, so I eat
paleo for medical reasons, but alot of people eat a paleolithic
diet because they want a certainphysique or they have a certain
(07:01):
philosophy.
Right.
And it's a choice mm-hmm but they might
then be vegetarian or eat wheator at other times.
Right.
So right in the same way, youknow, there can be things that
we step into because um, we wantto, and sometimes it's like,
that's the only choice I feellike I have
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Mm-hmm
and I'm wondering when you see
couples, cuz you, you seecouples who are polyamorous, I
guess my question is what dothey see as their challenge,
emotionally forming attachmentsin a polyamorous setting and
what do they get out of it?
What, what's the reward thatthey feel that they don't,
(07:40):
they're not getting from mononon monogamy from monogamy
rather
Speaker 2 (07:44):
From monogamy.
Yeah.
Well there's lots of rewards.
Oh right.
Yeah.
There's lots of rewards.
Just like you could probably sayyou have more than one friend in
your life or if people have morethan one child or more than one
pet right.
That like there's a lot ofrewards from the expansion of
our social experience.
(08:05):
Right.
Um, and in very few places inour life where we truly in a
mono experience.
Right, right.
So there's many benefits andrewards.
Um, you know, the research showsthat people identify that they
get more of their non-sexualneeds met.
So there might be certaininterests that are very
(08:25):
important to me, but my husbanddoes not share.
Wow, amazing.
I get to explore that interestor get it satisfied with another
partner.
You know, people identify ashaving more support in their
life, more love in their life.
Um, they report having moreopportunity to grow for better
or worse cause when youhave more partners, there's a
(08:48):
lot more mirrors being reflectedback at you.
Right.
And so it's harder to get awaywith your so to speak, you know,
mm-hmm soyou're, it's really become this
push you, people have to growin, in new ways in polyamory.
Right.
Monogamy doesn't always catalyzethat kind of growth.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Right.
And I, I, I would imagine thatthat's, if maybe they begin as a
couple and then, and move intopolyamory, I could imagine that
one of the fears or issues isthat, that growth that takes
place, that expansion that takesplace through polyamory can be a
threat.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
To that original relationship.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah.
And that's what I'm actuallywriting about this in my next
book.
Is, is that polyamory then?
Or is that just the process ofdifferentiation, right.
That, you know, if you look atthe stages like Ellen Bader's
work of going from symbiosis todifferentiation, a lot of
couples monogamous ones, don'tmake it through that.
(09:51):
Right.
right, right.
So right.
If you're not, no longerenacting codependent patterns,
we might not stay together.
Even if we were just you and me.
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yeah.
So you're right.
There's with more benefit.
Of course there comes certainrisks.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Right.
But I, but you can imagine thatthere's a real drive to find
those additional benefits thatthere's mm-hmm,
that's to engage or embark onthis path, the partners or the
individuals really have to feelthat there's something that they
they're looking for or wantingto get.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's not kind of satisfied in monogamy.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah.
And, and some to add a few moreto that, cuz that's sort of, I
first said what the surveyresearch has shown, but just
what my practice has shown is ofcourse there's sexual reasons
and there's nothing wrong withthat.
You know, that we might havewonderful sex with our spouse,
but there might be other sexstyles that our spouse has no
interest in kink would be a easyone.
(10:58):
Right.
Mm-hmm and someonefeels like, I really feel like I
need a kink exploration.
Well, great.
You can go have that.
Mm-hmm you don'thave to be denied that
experience, you know, or there'sa lot of monogamous couples that
don't have a lot of romance orsexuality, but they love their
family and they don't want thatright.
To, they don't wanna divorce sothey can keep the structure of
(11:21):
the life they built the familythey have and yet still have
aspects of sex or romance intheir life.
Just not with each other.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Sometimes in my work I do a lot of work with couples
in which they feel sexuallydisengaged and maybe they've
been married for a while and thesex kind of goes away gradually
or suddenly from therelationship.
And couples tend to frame thatas a loss of desire.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (11:52):
And I often kind of push back on that, that framing
because what I, my kind of takeis that often sexual intimacy
goes away in, in a relationshipas a function of a loss of
emotional intimacy mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So they become they've pulled apart
emotionally.
And then to me, after the firstfew years, emotional intimacy
for me is the fuel for sexualintimacy.
Mm-hmm.
And so if the emotional intimacygoes, the sex follows, sometimes
it can take quite a bit ofdiscussion before they're
willing to see that.
(12:30):
Oh yeah.
Maybe, maybe it's not because Ino longer desire him or her
maybe it's that we feel distant
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And I'm wondering whether in your practice, I
don't in any way wannapathologize this.
Right.
But whether sometimes there's adesire to move to polyamory as a
way of not moving closer to themonogamous partner.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Right.
I think of course, does thatshow up, but I don't think
that's the norm.
Right.
Ah, okay.
Right.
I don't think that's the primarydrive.
Why people are doing it.
Yeah.
But have I seen that?
Of course.
But you know, there's so manythings, like I mostly agree with
what you're saying that yes.
(13:19):
Many times sexual intimacy haswaned because of there's this
emotional distance.
A lot of times too though,there's it's not even just
emotional distance.
It's emotional safety has beenlost.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Right.
And sometimes that can berepaired and sometimes it isn't
repairable.
Right.
And it's like, Ooh, we have tolook at that.
right.
Right.
Which is hard.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
But what's really fascinating isthat it's common that couples
open up and their sex drive foreach other just skyrockets.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
You know there's
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And what do you think that means?
What happens that that makesthat happen?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I think there can be something about, um, possession
and ownership.
Like once we feel free, like, ohwait, I don't own you.
And I can't just take you forgranted and I'm not in your
sexuality actually isn't mine,it's yours.
And you get to choose what youwanna do with it.
Wow.
Now that you're sexy and hot tome again, cuz I don't possess
(14:25):
you in the way that's justfamiliar and comfortable and
known.
Right.
So we become mysterious to eachother again.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Or conversely, I stop feeling like you are trying to
possess my sexual, my sexualityor exactly own me in that way.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
You know, I see a, a lot in, in couples that um, one
partner will be really upset ifthe other partner masturbates
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Mm-hmm
right.
It's almost like cheating.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
It's almost like cheating.
How,
Speaker 2 (14:59):
How dare you.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah.
How dare you?
How dare you have this sexualexperience without me without
get what you're saying that but I get what
you're saying is that if, if I'mfreed from either those sense of
being owned or having to ownsomebody else's sexuality, then
a lot of opportunity and feelinggets freed up.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think what starts tohappen too, is people enter into
these, whether it's dating appsor non monogamous communities
and there's just more dialoguearound sexuality mm-hmm
and so people sortof like erotic line of
intelligence starts to grow andthen you're like, oh, maybe we
should try this.
(15:41):
Or I tried this with someoneelse.
Never even thought it wassomething we would wanna do.
You know?
So it's sort of like, um, I'mgonna botch up that phrase.
The tide rises all the boats right, right.
So if someone might be doingsomething very different with a
new partner, um, they can bringback some of that new
intelligence to their originalrelationships.
(16:02):
Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And what do you think the challenges are as a couple
or an individual moves into thisnon-monogamous space?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean there's, there are abunch of challenges of course.
And um, you know, and polysecure, I talked about the
challenge of our attachment getsactivated.
Right.
And either it exposes aninsecure attachment that sort of
monogamy was buffering for us,um, or eclipsing for us, or we
(16:34):
were securely bonded andattached to our partner.
But moving into a differentrelationship structure creates
all this insecure attachmentthat wasn't there before, you
know?
Right.
Yeah.
That's really hard cuz that'snot just like, like attachment
isn't just theoretical oremotional.
I mean it's like primal nervoussystem.
it's the sense of like,am I safe and, and am I gonna
(16:57):
die or not like that's the levelthat gets activated with our
attachment system.
So there's lots of beauty ofthat.
We can have more attachments topeople, but obviously there can
be these attachment disruptionsthat I talk about there.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Um, and how do you, how do you talk to couples about
that are individuals about thatattachment disruption or that,
that sense of vulnerability thatcomes from moving beyond a
traditional monogamousrelationship?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we usually start to exploreof like, okay, where were you
getting your attachment securitybefore?
And you know, what do you neednow?
Right.
It might not be the same.
It usually has to change.
You know?
So people that were just relyingon the structure, I say, okay,
(17:45):
structure's important.
Mm-hmm and it cangive us a sense of security, but
that be the only place it has tobe that relational experience.
Are you available?
Are you responsive?
Are you attuned and vice versa?
Hmm.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
And I think you make a, in the book, a fascinating
kind of case about how, just tothat point, we tend to rely on
structure mm-hmm inthe relationship to provide, um,
a sense of safety and attachmentas opposed to actually those
relationship dynamics and, andfeeling close.
(18:25):
So we rely on, oh, well we'remarried, therefore we're close
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Versus
Speaker 1 (18:29):
As opposed versus right.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Do you ask me how I am at the end of the day?
Right.
Like, right.
Do you, do you even care how Iam at the end of the day?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And I thought that that was something that what he
talked about, I think have aquote here, when we rely on the
structure of our relationship,whether that is through being
monogamous with someone arepracticing hierarchical forms of
consensual, non, non monogamy.
We run the risk of forgettingthat secure attachment is an
embodied expression built uponhow we consistently respond and
(19:03):
attun to each other, notsomething that gets created
through structure and hierarchy.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah.
That was a, that was a great,
Speaker 2 (19:13):
That,
Speaker 1 (19:17):
That takes a lot.
I would imagine that takes a lotof kind of head and kind of
rethinking for people to kind ofget mm-hmm at the
beginning.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah.
Well I think they, theyintuitively get it right when
you point out, oh, you wererelying on the fact that you've
got kids together to feel safeand they oh yeah.
Right, right.
Versus how are you treating eachother, you know, especially
pieces around attunement andresponsiveness, you know, or,
(19:50):
um, Gottman's work aroundemotional bids.
Right.
People, they hear that andthey're like, oh yeah,
that, that hasn't beenhappening.
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That hasn' been happening.
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Within that, um, I was also interested in the way
you talked about the evolutionof polyamory
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (20:11):
And how the early models assumed a hierarchical
structure in which there was aprimary coupling at the center.
And these other relationshipskind of were like spokes off of
the center, but that the pairwere committed to protecting the
(20:31):
primary
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Over the meta MOS.
The other relationships.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Exactly.
Everything else is secondary,
Speaker 1 (20:41):
But that seems to be changing.
Yeah.
How, how is that changing?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah.
And so people still do that.
So if anyone's listening andthat's what you wanna do, that's
okay to do it.
Just let everyone know in who'scoming into your, you know,
dating sphere that that's thestyle you're doing.
But a lot of people have beentrying to dismantle this
hierarchy.
Mm-hmm and say, Idon't favor one person over the
other or privilege one personover the other, you know, and
(21:08):
they're calling itnon-hierarchical polyamory.
Of course I put, you know,caveats into that like, well,
there's always some form ofhierarchy.
Like the partner I've been withfor 10 years has a time
hierarchy that just the personI've been with for six months
just doesn't have right.
Mm-hmm right.
Where me and the 10 year partnerhave established rituals and
(21:30):
holidays and traditions andmemories that like, you know, I
just am not gonna have, or theperson I share a child with or a
house with which in my case istwo different people.
Right.
There's certain aspects ofprioritization, you know?
So even that switchprioritization investment is
(21:50):
maybe different than hierarchy.
Right.
Mm-hmm but a lot ofpeople are trying to challenge
hierarchy and make sure thatwhen there's been a primary
couple, that new partners thatcome in have a voice, they have
a say in how their relationshipwith that partner rolls out.
(22:10):
And they're just not at themercy of what their partner's
partner wants.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I can imagine that so that we have to create safety
all across the, the family unit,this expanded family unit.
So if I'm a, a newcomer yeah.
Lover, I have to feel like Ihave a place here.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Exactly.
There's space for you and whoyou're with to create your
version of a relationship.
Mm-hmm.
And so if I'm the old comer, if I've been there, I
also have to go, oh yeah, I haveto make some space for you too,
you know, and include you in.
Right.
And not just say, oh, yield tohow I've been doing things with
(22:56):
this person all these years.
Yeah.
So there's, there's give andtake.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
How does that get navigated?
Because that strikes me as a, asa, you know, as a big ask for at
least it would be when I thinkabout myself.
Yeah.
You know, that would be a bigask for me.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Right, right.
yeah.
Yeah.
And so right.
When, when couples are startingfrom a marriage, I'm like,
don't, don't undo your hierarchyovernight.
It's just not, it's too much ofa shock, you know, so phase it.
Right.
Okay.
You know, and this, you might ormight not find people that are
(23:36):
willing to do that with you, butyou will find other people that
also have a full life and theydon't have five or six days a
week that they're available toyou either, you know, mm-hmm
um, but in thatoriginal relationship, yeah.
What do, how many nights a weekdo we need to feel like we're
still in the relationship thatwe're invested in
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
You know, and how much what's the minimum, what's
the maximum and just sort ofstarting with that kind of
question.
And usually what happens is youhave to say, well, time is
limited.
So it can't always be aboutquantity.
We have to really look at thequality mm-hmm
right.
What are we doing with those twoor three nights that we have,
(24:18):
right.
Is it actually fulfilling to us?
Are we doing what matters,right.
Or are we kind of checked outand like in default mode?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
But I was thinking that I have a kind of, if I take
the attachment quizzes, mm-hmm, I have kind of a
mix of kind of a, a secure andsomewhat anxious attachment
style.
That's who I am.
Okay.
And that anxiety, that anxiouspart of me gets reflected in how
(24:52):
I ask or need my in this case.
Cause I'm married my wife todemonstrate to me my importance
to her.
Yeah.
You know, cause to demonstratehow, how we're connected, how
we're in love, how we're, howwe're a couple, how I'm
(25:13):
important to her as she is to me.
And I was wondering as that in apolyamorous arrangement, it must
be difficult or challenging tofind ways to, to feel, to
demonstrate how important theother person is to you and be
(25:38):
also at the same time,demonstrating that you have
needs that they're not meeting
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yes.
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
It does.
And it's really interesting too,that there's a invisible tension
in monogamy that we all know noone person can meet all of my
needs, but when I'm in monogamy,the expectation is that all of
my needs will get met here.
Or I just never, ever in my lifewill get those other needs needs
(26:11):
met.
Right.
So that's that tension.
I know you can't meet all ofthem cuz you're a different
person and I love you.
And now I just have to sacrificecertain needs.
Right.
So there's something paradoxicalor beautiful that happens is you
open up and you go, oh, I canget some of these needs out
there.
And then you just feel so muchmore accepting and appreciative
(26:32):
of what you're getting in thatoriginal relationship.
Like you, people start valuingwhat's there more, cause they're
not focusing anymore on what I'mnot getting from here.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And I think, yeah, no, I think that's exactly
right.
That makes a lot of sense.
And, and I think that, thatwhat, I'm not getting that, what
you call that invisible tensionin monogamy is something that
couples have a tremendoustrouble talking about.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah.
Because they're afraid if, if Ireally start to talk about what
I feel like I'm not getting,that's gonna cause more problems
so better that I just kind oflock that away.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Exactly.
Right.
And it's, it's tricky.
Uh, Terry real talks about, Ithink this relationship
reckoning, do you know thatconcept?
Mm-hmm from himsort of like right.
You know, whatever the cutoffis.
We're like, okay, I need 80% ofmy needs met to consider this a
fulfilling relationship.
And then I kind of have to havethis reckoning of yeah.
(27:37):
That 20% just not gonna happenhere.
But I think what you're gettingat is when we start to allow
ourselves, to be honest, theremight be deal breakers that we
didn't wanna ever admit, youknow?
Right.
And that's the, the danger,right?
Oh, there might be a dealbreaker in here for me actually.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Right.
Yeah.
And so we, instead we keep quietabout it, then risk actually
talking about what might be adeal breaker.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Right.
Cause I don't wanna getdivorced.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I don't want to get divorced.
I don't want, I don't want to, Idon't want to blow this up.
So I'll just not talk about it.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
And that is, I think what really happens that's the,
the energy behind emotionaldistance mm-hmm is
I start to accumulate more andmore items that I'm not talking
about.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, exactly.
This withholding, this sort ofyeah.
Containing exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
But hopefully with the discussion that leads to
non-monogamy I get a chance totalk about some stuff that have
always wanted to talk about,
Speaker 2 (28:44):
And this is what couples say.
They're like, this has been thehardest year, usually in this
first year similar.
I I think very similar to havinga newborn you're like, this was
really hard, but I like havemore love in my life cuz I, you
know, than ever.
And they're like, this year hasbeen so hard, but we are more
honest, we're more connected andwe're more intimate than we've
(29:05):
ever been.
Cuz we're talking about all thethings we weren't talking about.
Yeah.
I mean, I it's a bumper stickerfor me at this point.
like how many times Ihear couples say it.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
And when couples then feel that freedom and have those
conversations they'd never hadbefore I wonder, do they ever
then feel more connected andmove away from non-monogamy and
back to monogamy?
Or is that pretty unlikely?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Usually not.
Yeah.
I mean of course people go backto monogamy, you know, sometimes
they're like, you know, it just,they tried it, they like didn't
know and they wanted to try itand it wasn't what they wanted
once they tried it and they goback mm-hmm often,
no, they say that and they aremoving forward where they're
like, no, this like this isgiving us that level of intimacy
(29:56):
and honesty and yeah.
And, and what the other peoplethat have entered their lives
are doing, they wouldn't wannagive up either.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I was think I was thinking about, you know, I was
talking about just now my, mykind of attachment style and how
I remember that you had atraumatic childhood.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I'm not gonna kind of press you to talk about that.
But I also had a traumaticchildhood mm-hmm
and I can see how my childhoodtrauma helped shape the
direction of my attachment needsand my attachment style and kind
of where I, where I lie on thatspectrum.
(30:39):
Right.
Between monogamy and, andnon-monogamy.
Yeah, that's really prettyclear.
And I wonder, and I'm notlooking to for any details, but
I wonder whether for yourselfmm-hmm you, you
understand kind of where it all,where this came from and how
this fits into you as a person.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Absolutely.
And I think the caveat is, thisis such a good example.
You and I right here of likeeveryone can have trauma and it
might put them in eitherdirection.
So we couldn't, I don't wantanyone to conclude that, oh,
trauma makes someone polyamorousor it makes them monogamous cuz
it's like, we can go in eitherway.
Yeah.
And I don't, I can see it's sofascinating that cuz I had many
(31:24):
different step families,different, um, losses,
different, you know, forChristmas holiday there would be
three or four differenthouseholds that I'd have to go
to I never had a singularfamily existence.
And so I didn't think of ituntil I opened up from my first
marriage that I had an easiertime navigating multiple
(31:48):
partners, cuz I already had theskills to navigate multiple
family systems and almost insome ways multiple universes,
like I knew I'm a shape shifterbecause of my trauma.
Right.
and I can go in and outof different scenarios cuz I had
all of that experience.
Whereas my husband at the timewho had both parents still
(32:10):
together, very nuclear, youknow, intact family, like he
didn't know how to do thesetransitions from his date to
coming home.
Right.
It was harder.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, I mean I feel likeit's actually benefited me now
is how I narrate it when I thinkabout it.
(32:31):
Mm-hmm yeah, yeah.
But absolutely my, my nervoussystem knows multiple parental
figures.
So I'm like, yeah, give me a,give me multiple romantic
attachment figures.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah.
That's so great.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So, so the opposite of my reaction and my existence,
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
In fact you taught me this wonderful word, which I'd
never heard before.
Poly saturated,
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Poly saturated.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yes.
It's such a great term.
The idea is I think you definedit as when the idea of an
additional relationship feelsmore exhausting and exciting.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I didn't come up or cointhat word.
It's a word known in the nonmonogamous world, but yes.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
That, that was, it was a new one to me.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, good.
Right.
And some people are saturated atnone.
Let alone one
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Right.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Right.
Yeah.
Um,
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yeah.
And I think, I think that's areally kind of, uh, generous way
of looking at it that yeah.
We all have our saturationlevel.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah.
And what I, what I did bring tothat, which was different, was
like, well, is, is it partnerpoly saturation or let's look at
your life saturation.
Right?
Because there's times in lifefor so many factors that you
couldn't take on another partnercuz you're, you know, have a
(34:00):
newborn or you have an illnessor a parent that's now at your
house or it's a pandemic.
Right.
So many different things thatlife can be saturating as well.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
That pandemic question is really interesting.
I wonder how that must have beena real challenge for polyamorous
, uh, individuals or couples.
How do I navigate I'm so used tokind of so much coming in and
now I'm stuck on the couch athome.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Exactly.
And maybe with not my favoritepartner.
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Right.
Yeah.
I think the polyamorous nonmonogamous, you know, is very,
that's also was not very seen,you know, how hard it was, um,
for people to feel isolated,especially under the more
intense times of quarantine andlockdown.
Right.
You know that, um, and having tonavigate well, okay.
(34:55):
Let's say we have a couple thatlives together and they have
partners outside of the house.
Well, your partner is a, youknow, a school teacher and is a
more high risk situation than mypartner who works at home, but
it feels really unfair that Iget to see them and you don't
get, you know, like where wehave to stagger.
Okay.
You see your partner, then wewait two weeks.
(35:15):
I mean, it's just, Ugh, reallycomplicated,
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Really complicated.
So much harder.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Right.
My partners immune compromiseyours isn't you know, like it
was just really, however, somepeople, they moved in together
and it created something thatwould not have happened and they
were great for it.
Right.
Oh, let's have that partner movein.
You know,
Speaker 1 (35:40):
They create a new bubble that includes,
Speaker 2 (35:42):
That includes.
Right.
And that was beautiful or okay.
Even if we're not moving intogether, we are creating a, you
know, our pod with this partner,who's now liked helping us with
the kids.
You know, there was a lot ofthings too that were really
lovely and surprising.
Um, or I had a couple that like,oh, we're enforced monogamy.
(36:02):
And they were sort of jokingabout that, but they used, you
know, a solid year to just focuson, well, let's work on our
secure attachment.
Let's use this as time
Speaker 1 (36:13):
For the last thing I wanna talk about is just what
you just said.
Let's work on our secureattachment.
Yeah.
And I wonder from your point ofview, especially in a, in a
polyamorous setting, how do Iwork on my secure attachment and
my ability for me to feelsecurely attached to you or us
(36:34):
together, how does that work?
That I get to earn whatsometimes referred to as earned
attachment
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Exactly.
The earned secure attachment.
So there's two parts, right?
Like two wings to that or twosides of the coin.
And, and one of them is secureattachment with self, you know,
is really working on like beingmy own rock.
Right.
And what are the ways I need tobe feeling more in my own skin,
(37:02):
you know, in my own center,right.
Working through my ownattachment wounds from
childhood.
Right.
So that becomes a huge thingthat's usually needed, um, is,
is feeling more secure insideone's self.
And then yeah, as I lay out inthe book, like here's the
different steps or things youcan try out, you know, that are
(37:25):
ways to cultivate this with yourpartner, but a lot of it's not
to oversimplify it, but it'ssort of like, what do you need
to feel safe and valued andloved and what do I need to feel
safe and valued and loved, youknow, and desired and, and
negotiating and navigating allof that.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
And so having that discussion
Speaker 2 (37:49):
With a lot of discussion.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And usually not always, butusually in monogamy, there's a
lot of that gets bypassed andthere's just assumptions.
Yeah.
And expectations that were nevermade explicit.
So there it's really aboutmaking all of this explicit.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
When you see couples that move into non monogamy,
does it ever feel like onepartner is dragging the other
Speaker 2 (38:15):
that's a
great question.
Yeah.
That definitely happens.
And it's hard, you know, whenyou, yeah.
I mean, usually it, there arecertain times where both people
are like, oh, this is a greatidea.
You know?
Or they already were maybeswingers, you know, or they'd
have a threesome, they bring athird and it was more sexual.
And then they meet someone theyhave feelings for.
(38:36):
And they're like, let's, let'stry this.
Right.
Um, but yes, there's absolutelytimes when one person is like,
this is what I am, or this iswhat I need and the other would
never have chosen it.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Right.
You
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Know?
And so I really work to slowdown and not have that reluctant
partner be dragged into it.
Right.
Quite, you know, cuz it's like,that's, that's gonna terminate
this relationship because it'sgonna traumatize that partner
too much.
Right.
So how do we go through periodsof experimenting with certain
(39:10):
things, you know, to see if thisother partner does actually
wanna do this.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah.
Which a lot of times, one thingI see though is the initial
reluctant partner.
They think it's impossible.
They'll, they'll never findanyone.
They'll never have feelings orattraction for anyone.
How could you go out and havefeelings for someone else and
still have feelings for me athome.
And it, once they find someone,they have feelings for it
(39:38):
suddenly like it uploads andthey're like, oh I get it
now?
Like, like I just had feelingsand I came home and still had
feelings for you.
It can ha like they need theexperience, you know, just,
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Oh, that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah.
And it, yeah,
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah.
To know that they could have,like you just said feelings for
this new person and still havefeelings for the old person.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Exactly.
Right.
It like, it can't be theoreticalor conceptual.
They have to go through it.
And what's hard is sometimesthat takes six or nine months
before you actually findsomeone.
Sure.
You know so yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah.
And I wonder whether that'sthat's a, that six or nine
months is, is the finding orwhether that's really six or
nine months for me to be reallyopen to finding, you know, that
it takes a while just to cuz weare taught so clearly that you
can't do this.
Yeah.
You know that you can't havefeelings of closeness for two
(40:38):
people.
You can't really be emotionallyinvolved with more than one
person.
You can't love more than one.
That's kind of baked into ourkind of culture.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah.
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
And it's a huge shift to think, oh I can love you and
I can love you.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's and that's one of thechapters in my next book too, is
like honoring the paradigmshift.
Right.
right.
Like, oh this is a new paradigm.
And it just takes a while tokind of OnRamp to that.
Like it's not an instant processjust as we would know, you know,
if you decided to change fieldsand wanted to become a chemist,
(41:18):
right.
You wouldn't be a chem, youknow, chemistry expert in the
first few years even.
Right.
right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
And when you see people making this shift, is
there a gender difference thatyou tend to see?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Yeah.
Women initiate, opening up.
I see more than men.
If we're talking about a same,uh, you know, more hetero
relationship.
Um, of course I think, you know,gay relationships have been
doing non monogamy forever andit, and it's kind of right.
Speaked into that dynamic thatin some ways yeah.
(41:59):
Versions of it have beenexpected for a long time, you
know, but not in straighthetero, you know, Monon,
normative relationships.
So normally I do see womeninitiating the opening up
process and then usually womenhave a lot easier time finding
partners.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
And so there's this, I do mention it in the book.
There's a privilege swap.
Yeah.
That suddenly happens.
And the man's like, wait aminute, this is not fun or easy,
you know?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Yeah.
And why do you think it's tendsto be the woman who opens up?
What's your view on that?
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah.
I think women are usually theones that are initiating growth
in relationships.
Anyway.
That's what we see.
They're the ones that say, let'sgo to therapy, let's read this
book.
Let's go to this workshop.
Right.
Mm-hmm it's womenthat are normally, you know,
the, the spearheads of, of thegrowth they're often because of
gender issues also doing more ofthe emotional labor in the
(42:59):
relationship.
So
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
The, so there you go.
They're the ones that are gonnasay, you know what?
I want this, or there's aproblem here.
Maybe there's a solution orlet's try this, you know, mm-hmm
and I've seen itfunny enough.
I've seen it even in there'sbeen moments or relationships
I've seen, the woman doesn'teven wanna be non monogamous,
but she tells her husband to be,but it comes from her.
(43:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He might have been complaining,you know, but she's the one who
came up with the idea.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Oh, I see.
I get it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And but if, if a couples movesthis way, the woman may be more
likely to be the initiator.
What do you think is the, theman's hesitance?
Yeah.
What's what's the, is it a fear?
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah.
There's usually, well, sometimesit's fear of losing their
partner.
Right.
Mm-hmm of a lot ofinsecurities can get shown up
that you haven't had to face.
Oh, what if someone else isbetter than me?
What if he makes more money thanme?
Right.
He has more status than me.
His penis is bigger than mine.
(44:09):
Like all of that.
Suddenly now the maleinsecurities get really fierce.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Activated yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Activated.
Right.
That you haven't ever bethinking about any of that, you
know?
Um, right.
So right.
Once you committed however longago that then those fears could,
you know, abate so to speak.
Um, so a lot of it getsreactivated and then sometimes
it's just disbelief.
Like, can I actually findsomeone, you know, who's gonna
(44:39):
want me if I'm only availabletwice a month.
And I mean, now at this point,I'm like, there is some, there
is more than one person whowants your situation.
trust me.
You think you have the mostobscure kink, there's four other
people in a hundred mile radiuswho want the same thing on
(45:00):
Tuesdays.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so lastly, you mentioned acouple times that you're writing
a new book and what's the newbook about
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Yeah.
So the new book is called polywise.
Um, hopefully it will be outwithin a year.
Um, and it's basically, youknow, me looking at the, okay,
what's going on in thistransition that couple wanna do
this, but it's so hard.
Right, right.
And it's not just jealousy.
(45:36):
It's not just get better atmaking your agreements more
clear.
Those are important, but it'snot, that's not sufficient.
And attachment was one thing onthe list.
And so this book is the othersort of five or six things on
that list
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Of oh, interesting
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Of, here's why it's hard and here's what, you know,
you can do.
Yeah.
So one is like, how do younavigate a paradigm shift?
That's a big undertaking.
Mm-hmm,, you know,living from a different
orientation completely torelationship and life, um,
partners who neverdifferentiated.
So oh wow.
You're having to go through anentire differentiation process
(46:14):
and face challenges ofcodependency.
so different.
Things like that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
That's so interesting.
So it's, it's, it's all the,like you said, all the non kind
of, um, attachment issues be,and there's a ton of those.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
There's a few of them , right?
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Sort of like looking at theroots and there's, you know,
five or six different rootissues that that couples are
experiencing.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah.
And have you, have you beensurprised at the level of
success that you're that secure?
Uh, poly secure has gotten, Imean, cuz it's kinda a lot of
press
Speaker 2 (46:54):
It's blown me away Away.
I mean I knew some people wouldappreciate it, but you know, I
just, I feel like, I, I thinkI've said this before, like I
was just the cook that made themeal that people were hungry
for.
Like, you know, that, thatpeople in this community, um, in
(47:15):
this lifestyle and thisorientation were, you know,
needing something like that.
And that's a credit too, to myeditor, my publisher who knew
this book was needed, you know?
Um, but yeah, even mainstreampeople are, I mean, they're not
trashing the book, it blows meaway, you know, they're, they're
recommending the book.
Right.
It's yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
That's great.
But yeah, but that, that has tokind of stretch the boundaries
of how you see yourself.
Cuz now you're now suddenlyyou're a, a, a highly successful
sought after author, not just asa therapist that kind of, that
kind of expands your world.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's there's for better orworse because there's like for
better,
Speaker 1 (47:58):
For
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Worse.
Right.
Cause yeah, there's been a wholelearning curve on my end of like
whoa, abundance issues now.
Like I can't quotemyself.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
That's great.
Yeah.
So Jessica, thank you so muchfor talking with me today.
That's been so interesting and Ithink the work you're doing is
so great and so important tokind of de-stigmatize and expand
and acknowledge attachmentopportunities live are exist
well beyond just monogamy.
Yeah.
That, and I think that really isgonna help tons and tons of
(48:31):
people.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah.
You're so welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
That's our episode for today.
I hope you found it interestingand useful, but most of all, I'd
like to thank you for listening.
If you have a minute, please hitthe subscribe button and give us
a rating.
And I hope to see you again soonon another episode of sex, love
and couples therapy.
Hi, my name is Jacob Brown and I'm a couple's
therapist in San Francisco.
I wanna welcome you to sex loveand couple's therapy.
We all want to feel loved.
That's a universal desire, butsometimes instead of feeling
loving our relationships, feelconfusing, frustrating, and a
(00:28):
little crazy making the purposeof this podcast is to help you
clear up some of that confusionso that you and your partner can
find ways to make yourrelationship feel closer, more
connected, and more loving.
So stay tuned.
We've got a lot of great stuffto talk about, and now let's go
talk about my three favoritetopics, sex love, and couples
(00:52):
therapy.
Hi, and welcome to sex love andcouples therapy.
I'm very, very pleased today tohave, as my guest, Jessica Fern,
Jessica is a psychotherapistpublic speaker and trauma and
relationship expert, and theauthor of what I think is an
(01:13):
extremely important book, polysecure attachment trauma and
consensual non-monogamy.
I just wanna kind of take asecond to set this up a little
bit in the sense that talkingabout attachment, cuz in my
experience, listening to otherpodcasts or interviews, when
people talk about polyamory,it's often around kind of the
(01:36):
mechanics.
Yeah.
You know, who sleeps with who,when, what happens, what's the
hierarchy, all this sort ofstuff.
And what to me is kind of avoyeuristic kind of approach.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
And I really want to be try hard not to replicate
that.
Mm I'm hoping that what we cando is look at polyamory kind of
through the lens that you'vecreated in your book of, of
attachment.
But as you know, and as you talkabout your book, attachment
theory, especially adultattachment theory is based on
(02:10):
the assumption of monogamy.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
And actually pathologizes polyamory as
evidence of a non-secureattachment.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
And I just thought that that was such an important
distinction that you've kind ofbrought up there and that you've
really, I, from my point of viewkind of broke a new ground in
extending attachment theory toinclude people in non-monogamous
relationships.
And I just think that's anextraordinary thing to do.
And it was just a wonderfuladdition.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Mm thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
words polyamory mm-hmm
monogamy are kind of tossedaround
Speaker 2 (03:00):
As synonymous, right?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Yeah.
As synonymous.
Right.
And so for our discussion, Iwonder, I'm not asking you to
kind of do a full education, butif you could create a little bit
of a frame of what is it we'retalking about today, when you
say polyamory so that the guestskind of we're all on the same
page to start with.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Right.
Great.
Well, I'll say con yeah.
Consensual non-monogamy would bethe umbrella term for all the
different ways, which includespolyamory.
Um, but isn't limited topolyamory that there's more than
one sexual or romantic partnerand that consensual part is key,
everybody know.
Right.
Which is different thancheating.
(03:43):
Right.
Which would be non-consensualnon monogamy.
Right.
Um, so polyamorous specificallypeople who, you know, poly as
many and Amory as Amor lovewhere I'm having many loves
right.
Partners that I'm falling inlove with.
And so in that case, which isdifferent than people that might
(04:05):
do a version of non monogamywhere they might have one
partner that they're in lovewith and other partners that
they're more casual and sexualwith.
Right.
And there's many ways again todo it.
Right.
So polyamory is, yes.
I have multiple people I'm inlove with and multiple people
that I consider an attachmentbased kind of relationship.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Interesting.
That's great.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, and, and kind of alast question.
If I think of myself, I viewmyself as a, a cisgender man.
So that's my kind of sexual, mygender identity.
Mm-hmm
though, I can imagine somewiggle room there for me.
(04:44):
Mm-hmm
relationship identity as beingmonogamous.
Yes.
My wife and I have been togetherfor 40 years in a monogamous
relationship.
So that's kind of what I'mattracted to and what I connect
with.
And I wonder when we think ofpolyamory or a polyamorous
(05:05):
person, where does polyamory fitin there?
Is that kind of baked in theway?
I might think of my, my genderidentity being baked in mm-hmm
polyamorous person?
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Yeah.
And it's interesting cuz manypeople do like on certain dating
apps, you can identify aspolysexual as your sexual
orientation.
So some people are labeling itthat way that your orientation
is too more like one partner ormany.
I think of it as therelationship structure.
Right.
So you're saying right, youprefer the monogamous
(05:42):
relationship structure and likethings like sexual orientation
or gender.
I see it as existing on aspectrum, you know, with sort of
monogamy on one end polyamory onthe other.
And there's a lot going on inthe middle here.
It's not a rigid binary by anymeans.
And so as one of the things Ibring up in the book, which of
course is, you know, a can be acontentious topic for some
(06:07):
people, is that some peoplereally do feel like it's an iden
, it's a, an orientation forthem.
It's not just a lifestyle choicethat they're choosing.
Cuz I like it.
Or I align with it.
You know, they actually feellike this is fundamentally who
they are.
And so I see people that dopolyamory as a lifestyle choice
(06:28):
and I see people who deeply feellike there's no other way for
them to be it's an orientation.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Oh, that's so interesting that people can
exist on that spectrum.
That's very interesting.
I never thought of it quite thatway.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I don't wannatrivialize it, but I think of
it, like let's take somethinglike food choices, our diet,
right.
Mm-hmm
paleo for medical reasons, but alot of people eat a paleolithic
diet because they want a certainphysique or they have a certain
(07:01):
philosophy.
Right.
And it's a choice mm-hmm
then be vegetarian or eat wheator at other times.
Right.
So right in the same way, youknow, there can be things that
we step into because um, we wantto, and sometimes it's like,
that's the only choice I feellike I have
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Mm-hmm
couples, cuz you, you seecouples who are polyamorous, I
guess my question is what dothey see as their challenge,
emotionally forming attachmentsin a polyamorous setting and
what do they get out of it?
What, what's the reward thatthey feel that they don't,
(07:40):
they're not getting from mononon monogamy from monogamy
rather
Speaker 2 (07:44):
From monogamy.
Yeah.
Well there's lots of rewards.
Oh right.
Yeah.
There's lots of rewards.
Just like you could probably sayyou have more than one friend in
your life or if people have morethan one child or more than one
pet
That like there's a lot ofrewards from the expansion of
our social experience.
(08:05):
Right.
Um, and in very few places inour life where we truly in a
mono experience.
Right, right.
So there's many benefits andrewards.
Um, you know, the research showsthat people identify that they
get more of their non-sexualneeds met.
So there might be certaininterests that are very
(08:25):
important to me, but my husbanddoes not share.
Wow, amazing.
I get to explore that interestor get it satisfied with another
partner.
You know, people identify ashaving more support in their
life, more love in their life.
Um, they report having moreopportunity to grow for better
or worse
(08:48):
lot more mirrors being reflectedback at you.
Right.
And so it's harder to get awaywith your so to speak, you know,
push you, people have to growin, in new ways in polyamory.
Right.
Monogamy doesn't always catalyzethat kind of growth.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Right.
And I, I, I would imagine thatthat's, if maybe they begin as a
couple and then, and move intopolyamory, I could imagine that
one of the fears or issues isthat, that growth that takes
place, that expansion that takesplace through polyamory can be a
threat.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
To that original relationship.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah.
And that's what I'm actuallywriting about this in my next
book.
Is, is that polyamory then?
Or is that just the process ofdifferentiation, right.
That, you know, if you look atthe stages like Ellen Bader's
work of going from symbiosis todifferentiation, a lot of
couples monogamous ones, don'tmake it through that.
(09:51):
Right.
So right.
If you're not, no longerenacting codependent patterns,
we might not stay together.
Even if we were just you and me.
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yeah.
So you're right.
There's with more benefit.
Of course there comes certainrisks.
Absolutely.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Right.
But I, but you can imagine thatthere's a real drive to find
those additional benefits thatthere's mm-hmm,
that's to engage or embark onthis path, the partners or the
individuals really have to feelthat there's something that they
they're looking for or wantingto get.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
That's not kind of satisfied in monogamy.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Yeah.
And, and some to add a few moreto that, cuz that's sort of, I
first said what the surveyresearch has shown, but just
what my practice has shown is ofcourse there's sexual reasons
and there's nothing wrong withthat.
You know, that we might havewonderful sex with our spouse,
but there might be other sexstyles that our spouse has no
interest in kink would be a easyone.
(10:58):
Right.
Mm-hmm
need a kink exploration.
Well, great.
You can go have that.
Mm-hmm
experience, you know, or there'sa lot of monogamous couples that
don't have a lot of romance orsexuality, but they love their
family and they don't want thatright.
To, they don't wanna divorce sothey can keep the structure of
(11:21):
the life they built the familythey have and yet still have
aspects of sex or romance intheir life.
Just not with each other.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Sometimes in my work I do a lot of work with couples
in which they feel sexuallydisengaged and maybe they've
been married for a while and thesex kind of goes away gradually
or suddenly from therelationship.
And couples tend to frame thatas a loss of desire.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (11:52):
And I often kind of push back on that, that framing
because what I, my kind of takeis that often sexual intimacy
goes away in, in a relationshipas a function of a loss of
emotional intimacy mm-hmm
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So they become they've pulled apart
emotionally.
And then to me, after the firstfew years, emotional intimacy
for me is the fuel for sexualintimacy.
Mm-hmm
And so if the emotional intimacygoes, the sex follows, sometimes
it can take quite a bit ofdiscussion before they're
willing to see that.
(12:30):
Oh yeah.
Maybe, maybe it's not because Ino longer desire him or her
maybe it's that we feel distant
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (12:39):
And I'm wondering whether in your practice, I
don't in any way wannapathologize this.
Right.
But whether sometimes there's adesire to move to polyamory as a
way of not moving closer to themonogamous partner.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Right.
I think of course, does thatshow up, but I don't think
that's the norm.
Right.
Ah, okay.
Right.
I don't think that's the primarydrive.
Why people are doing it.
Yeah.
But have I seen that?
Of course.
But you know, there's so manythings, like I mostly agree with
what you're saying that yes.
(13:19):
Many times sexual intimacy haswaned because of there's this
emotional distance.
A lot of times too though,there's it's not even just
emotional distance.
It's emotional safety has beenlost.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Right.
And sometimes that can berepaired and sometimes it isn't
repairable.
Right.
And it's like, Ooh, we have tolook at that.
Right.
Which is hard.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
But what's really fascinating isthat it's common that couples
open up and their sex drive foreach other just skyrockets.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
You know there's
Speaker 1 (13:57):
And what do you think that means?
What happens that that makesthat happen?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I think there can be something about, um, possession
and ownership.
Like once we feel free, like, ohwait, I don't own you.
And I can't just take you forgranted and I'm not in your
sexuality actually isn't mine,it's yours.
And you get to choose what youwanna do with it.
Wow.
Now that you're sexy and hot tome again, cuz I don't possess
(14:25):
you in the way that's justfamiliar and comfortable and
known.
Right.
So we become mysterious to eachother again.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Or conversely, I stop feeling like you are trying to
possess my sexual, my sexualityor exactly own me in that way.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
You know, I see a, a lot in, in couples that um, one
partner will be really upset ifthe other partner masturbates
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Mm-hmm
It's almost like cheating.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
It's almost like cheating.
How,
Speaker 2 (14:59):
How dare you.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah.
How dare you?
How dare you have this sexualexperience without me without
get what you're saying that
you're saying is that if, if I'mfreed from either those sense of
being owned or having to ownsomebody else's sexuality, then
a lot of opportunity and feelinggets freed up.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And I think what starts tohappen too, is people enter into
these, whether it's dating appsor non monogamous communities
and there's just more dialoguearound sexuality mm-hmm
intelligence starts to grow andthen you're like, oh, maybe we
should try this.
(15:41):
Or I tried this with someoneelse.
Never even thought it wassomething we would wanna do.
You know?
So it's sort of like, um, I'mgonna botch up that phrase.
The tide rises all the boats
So if someone might be doingsomething very different with a
new partner, um, they can bringback some of that new
intelligence to their originalrelationships.
(16:02):
Right.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
And what do you think the challenges are as a couple
or an individual moves into thisnon-monogamous space?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean there's, there are abunch of challenges of course.
And um, you know, and polysecure, I talked about the
challenge of our attachment getsactivated.
Right.
And either it exposes aninsecure attachment that sort of
monogamy was buffering for us,um, or eclipsing for us, or we
(16:34):
were securely bonded andattached to our partner.
But moving into a differentrelationship structure creates
all this insecure attachmentthat wasn't there before, you
know?
Right.
Yeah.
That's really hard cuz that'snot just like, like attachment
isn't just theoretical oremotional.
I mean it's like primal nervoussystem.
(16:57):
die or not like that's the levelthat gets activated with our
attachment system.
So there's lots of beauty ofthat.
We can have more attachments topeople, but obviously there can
be these attachment disruptionsthat I talk about there.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Um, and how do you, how do you talk to couples about
that are individuals about thatattachment disruption or that,
that sense of vulnerability thatcomes from moving beyond a
traditional monogamousrelationship?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we usually start to exploreof like, okay, where were you
getting your attachment securitybefore?
And you know, what do you neednow?
Right.
It might not be the same.
It usually has to change.
You know?
So people that were just relyingon the structure, I say, okay,
(17:45):
structure's important.
Mm-hmm
that be the only place it has tobe that relational experience.
Are you available?
Are you responsive?
Are you attuned and vice versa?
Hmm.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
And I think you make a, in the book, a fascinating
kind of case about how, just tothat point, we tend to rely on
structure mm-hmm
a sense of safety and attachmentas opposed to actually those
relationship dynamics and, andfeeling close.
(18:25):
So we rely on, oh, well we'remarried, therefore we're close
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Versus
Speaker 1 (18:29):
As opposed versus right.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Do you ask me how I am at the end of the day?
Right.
Like,
Do you, do you even care how Iam at the end of the day?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
And I thought that that was something that what he
talked about, I think have aquote here, when we rely on the
structure of our relationship,whether that is through being
monogamous with someone arepracticing hierarchical forms of
consensual, non, non monogamy.
We run the risk of forgettingthat secure attachment is an
embodied expression built uponhow we consistently respond and
(19:03):
attun to each other, notsomething that gets created
through structure and hierarchy.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah.
That was a, that was a great,
Speaker 2 (19:13):
That,
Speaker 1 (19:17):
That takes a lot.
I would imagine that takes a lotof kind of head and kind of
rethinking for people to kind ofget mm-hmm
beginning.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah.
Well I think they, theyintuitively get it right when
you point out, oh, you wererelying on the fact that you've
got kids together to feel safeand they oh yeah.
Right, right.
Versus how are you treating eachother, you know, especially
pieces around attunement andresponsiveness, you know, or,
(19:50):
um, Gottman's work aroundemotional bids.
Right.
People, they hear that andthey're like, oh yeah,
that, that hasn't beenhappening.
Right.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That hasn' been happening.
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Within that, um, I was also interested in the way
you talked about the evolutionof polyamory
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (20:11):
And how the early models assumed a hierarchical
structure in which there was aprimary coupling at the center.
And these other relationshipskind of were like spokes off of
the center, but that the pairwere committed to protecting the
(20:31):
primary
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Over the meta MOS.
The other relationships.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Exactly.
Everything else is secondary,
Speaker 1 (20:41):
But that seems to be changing.
Yeah.
How, how is that changing?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Yeah.
And so people still do that.
So if anyone's listening andthat's what you wanna do, that's
okay to do it.
Just let everyone know in who'scoming into your, you know,
dating sphere that that's thestyle you're doing.
But a lot of people have beentrying to dismantle this
hierarchy.
Mm-hmm
other or privilege one personover the other, you know, and
(21:08):
they're calling itnon-hierarchical polyamory.
Of course I put, you know,caveats into that like, well,
there's always some form ofhierarchy.
Like the partner I've been withfor 10 years has a time
hierarchy that just the personI've been with for six months
just doesn't have right.
Mm-hmm
Where me and the 10 year partnerhave established rituals and
(21:30):
holidays and traditions andmemories that like, you know, I
just am not gonna have, or theperson I share a child with or a
house with which in my case istwo different people.
Right.
There's certain aspects ofprioritization, you know?
So even that switchprioritization investment is
(21:50):
maybe different than hierarchy.
Right.
Mm-hmm
hierarchy and make sure thatwhen there's been a primary
couple, that new partners thatcome in have a voice, they have
a say in how their relationshipwith that partner rolls out.
(22:10):
And they're just not at themercy of what their partner's
partner wants.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
I can imagine that so that we have to create safety
all across the, the family unit,this expanded family unit.
So if I'm a, a newcomer yeah.
Lover, I have to feel like Ihave a place here.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Exactly.
There's space for you and whoyou're with to create your
version of a relationship.
Mm-hmm
And so if I'm the old comer
also have to go, oh yeah, I haveto make some space for you too,
you know, and include you in.
Right.
And not just say, oh, yield tohow I've been doing things with
(22:56):
this person all these years.
Yeah.
So there's, there's give andtake.
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
How does that get navigated?
Because that strikes me as a, asa, you know, as a big ask for at
least it would be when I thinkabout myself.
Yeah.
You know, that would be a bigask for me.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Right, right.
Yeah.
And so right.
When, when couples are startingfrom a marriage, I'm like,
don't, don't undo your hierarchyovernight.
It's just not, it's too much ofa shock, you know, so phase it.
Right.
Okay.
You know, and this, you might ormight not find people that are
(23:36):
willing to do that with you, butyou will find other people that
also have a full life and theydon't have five or six days a
week that they're available toyou either, you know, mm-hmm
What do, how many nights a weekdo we need to feel like we're
still in the relationship thatwe're invested in
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Right.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
You know, and how much what's the minimum, what's
the maximum and just sort ofstarting with that kind of
question.
And usually what happens is youhave to say, well, time is
limited.
So it can't always be aboutquantity.
We have to really look at thequality mm-hmm
right.
What are we doing with those twoor three nights that we have,
(24:18):
right.
Is it actually fulfilling to us?
Are we doing what matters,right.
Or are we kind of checked outand like in default mode?
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
But I was thinking that I have a kind of, if I take
the attachment quizzes, mm-hmm,
mix of kind of a, a secure andsomewhat anxious attachment
style.
That's who I am.
Okay.
And that anxiety, that anxiouspart of me gets reflected in how
(24:52):
I ask or need my in this case.
Cause I'm married my wife todemonstrate to me my importance
to her.
Yeah.
You know, cause to demonstratehow, how we're connected, how
we're in love, how we're, howwe're a couple, how I'm
(25:13):
important to her as she is to me.
And I was wondering as that in apolyamorous arrangement, it must
be difficult or challenging tofind ways to, to feel, to
demonstrate how important theother person is to you and be
(25:38):
also at the same time,demonstrating that you have
needs that they're not meeting
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Yes.
Does that make any sense?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
It does.
And it's really interesting too,that there's a invisible tension
in monogamy that we all know noone person can meet all of my
needs, but when I'm in monogamy,the expectation is that all of
my needs will get met here.
Or I just never, ever in my lifewill get those other needs needs
(26:11):
met.
Right.
So that's that tension.
I know you can't meet all ofthem cuz you're a different
person and I love you.
And now I just have to sacrificecertain needs.
Right.
So there's something paradoxicalor beautiful that happens is you
open up and you go, oh, I canget some of these needs out
there.
And then you just feel so muchmore accepting and appreciative
(26:32):
of what you're getting in thatoriginal relationship.
Like you, people start valuingwhat's there more, cause they're
not focusing anymore on what I'mnot getting from here.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And I think, yeah, no, I think that's exactly
right.
That makes a lot of sense.
And, and I think that, thatwhat, I'm not getting that, what
you call that invisible tensionin monogamy is something that
couples have a tremendoustrouble talking about.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Yeah.
Because they're afraid if, if Ireally start to talk about what
I feel like I'm not getting,that's gonna cause more problems
so better that I just kind oflock that away.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Exactly.
Right.
And it's, it's tricky.
Uh, Terry real talks about, Ithink this relationship
reckoning, do you know thatconcept?
Mm-hmm
You know, whatever the cutoffis.
We're like, okay, I need 80% ofmy needs met to consider this a
fulfilling relationship.
And then I kind of have to havethis reckoning of yeah.
(27:37):
That 20% just not gonna happenhere.
But I think what you're gettingat is when we start to allow
ourselves, to be honest, theremight be deal breakers that we
didn't wanna ever admit, youknow?
Right.
And that's the, the danger,right?
Oh, there might be a dealbreaker in here for me actually.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Right.
Yeah.
And so we, instead we keep quietabout it, then risk actually
talking about what might be adeal breaker.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
Right.
Cause I don't wanna getdivorced.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
I don't want to get divorced.
I don't want, I don't want to, Idon't want to blow this up.
So I'll just not talk about it.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
And that is, I think what really happens that's the,
the energy behind emotionaldistance mm-hmm
I start to accumulate more andmore items that I'm not talking
about.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Yeah, exactly.
This withholding, this sort ofyeah.
Containing exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
But hopefully with the discussion that leads to
non-monogamy I get a chance totalk about some stuff that have
always wanted to talk about,
Speaker 2 (28:44):
And this is what couples say.
They're like, this has been thehardest year, usually in this
first year similar.
I I think very similar to havinga newborn you're like, this was
really hard, but I like havemore love in my life cuz I, you
know, than ever.
And they're like, this year hasbeen so hard, but we are more
honest, we're more connected andwe're more intimate than we've
(29:05):
ever been.
Cuz we're talking about all thethings we weren't talking about.
Yeah.
I mean, I it's a bumper stickerfor me at this point.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
And when couples then feel that freedom and have those
conversations they'd never hadbefore I wonder, do they ever
then feel more connected andmove away from non-monogamy and
back to monogamy?
Or is that pretty unlikely?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Usually not.
Yeah.
I mean of course people go backto monogamy, you know, sometimes
they're like, you know, it just,they tried it, they like didn't
know and they wanted to try itand it wasn't what they wanted
once they tried it and they goback mm-hmm
no, they say that and they aremoving forward where they're
like, no, this like this isgiving us that level of intimacy
(29:56):
and honesty and yeah.
And, and what the other peoplethat have entered their lives
are doing, they wouldn't wannagive up either.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
I was think I was thinking about, you know, I was
talking about just now my, mykind of attachment style and how
I remember that you had atraumatic childhood.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I'm not gonna kind of press you to talk about that.
But I also had a traumaticchildhood mm-hmm
and I can see how my childhoodtrauma helped shape the
direction of my attachment needsand my attachment style and kind
of where I, where I lie on thatspectrum.
(30:39):
Right.
Between monogamy and, andnon-monogamy.
Yeah, that's really prettyclear.
And I wonder, and I'm notlooking to for any details, but
I wonder whether for yourselfmm-hmm
understand kind of where it all,where this came from and how
this fits into you as a person.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Absolutely.
And I think the caveat is, thisis such a good example.
You and I right here of likeeveryone can have trauma and it
might put them in eitherdirection.
So we couldn't, I don't wantanyone to conclude that, oh,
trauma makes someone polyamorousor it makes them monogamous cuz
it's like, we can go in eitherway.
Yeah.
And I don't, I can see it's sofascinating that cuz I had many
(31:24):
different step families,different, um, losses,
different, you know, forChristmas holiday there would be
three or four differenthouseholds that I'd have to go
to
And so I didn't think of ituntil I opened up from my first
marriage that I had an easiertime navigating multiple
(31:48):
partners, cuz I already had theskills to navigate multiple
family systems and almost insome ways multiple universes,
like I knew I'm a shape shifterbecause of my trauma.
Right.
all of that experience.
Whereas my husband at the timewho had both parents still
(32:10):
together, very nuclear, youknow, intact family, like he
didn't know how to do thesetransitions from his date to
coming home.
Right.
It was harder.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, I mean I feel likeit's actually benefited me now
is how I narrate it when I thinkabout it.
(32:31):
Mm-hmm
But absolutely my, my nervoussystem knows multiple parental
figures.
So I'm like, yeah, give me a,give me multiple romantic
attachment figures.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Yeah.
That's so great.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So, so the opposite of my reaction and my existence,
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
In fact you taught me this wonderful word, which I'd
never heard before.
Poly saturated,
Speaker 2 (33:00):
Poly saturated.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yes.
It's such a great term.
The idea is I think you definedit as when the idea of an
additional relationship feelsmore exhausting and exciting.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I didn't come up or cointhat word.
It's a word known in the nonmonogamous world, but yes.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
That, that was, it was a new one to me.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Yeah, good.
Right.
And some people are saturated atnone.
Let alone one
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Right.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Right.
Yeah.
Um,
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Yeah.
And I think, I think that's areally kind of, uh, generous way
of looking at it that yeah.
We all have our saturationlevel.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah.
And what I, what I did bring tothat, which was different, was
like, well, is, is it partnerpoly saturation or let's look at
your life saturation.
Right?
Because there's times in lifefor so many factors that you
couldn't take on another partnercuz you're, you know, have a
(34:00):
newborn or you have an illnessor a parent that's now at your
house or it's a pandemic.
Right.
So many different things thatlife can be saturating as well.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
That pandemic question is really interesting.
I wonder how that must have beena real challenge for polyamorous
, uh, individuals or couples.
How do I navigate I'm so used tokind of so much coming in and
now I'm stuck on the couch athome.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Exactly.
And maybe with not my favoritepartner.
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Right.
Yeah.
I think the polyamorous nonmonogamous, you know, is very,
that's also was not very seen,you know, how hard it was, um,
for people to feel isolated,especially under the more
intense times of quarantine andlockdown.
Right.
You know that, um, and having tonavigate well, okay.
(34:55):
Let's say we have a couple thatlives together and they have
partners outside of the house.
Well, your partner is a, youknow, a school teacher and is a
more high risk situation than mypartner who works at home, but
it feels really unfair that Iget to see them and you don't
get, you know, like where wehave to stagger.
Okay.
You see your partner, then wewait two weeks.
(35:15):
I mean, it's just, Ugh, reallycomplicated,
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Really complicated.
So much harder.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Right.
My partners immune compromiseyours isn't you know, like it
was just really, however, somepeople, they moved in together
and it created something thatwould not have happened and they
were great for it.
Right.
Oh, let's have that partner movein.
You know,
Speaker 1 (35:40):
They create a new bubble that includes,
Speaker 2 (35:42):
That includes.
Right.
And that was beautiful or okay.
Even if we're not moving intogether, we are creating a, you
know, our pod with this partner,who's now liked helping us with
the kids.
You know, there was a lot ofthings too that were really
lovely and surprising.
Um, or I had a couple that like,oh, we're enforced monogamy.
(36:02):
And they were sort of jokingabout that, but they used, you
know, a solid year to just focuson, well, let's work on our
secure attachment.
Let's use this as time
Speaker 1 (36:13):
For the last thing I wanna talk about is just what
you just said.
Let's work on our secureattachment.
Yeah.
And I wonder from your point ofview, especially in a, in a
polyamorous setting, how do Iwork on my secure attachment and
my ability for me to feelsecurely attached to you or us
(36:34):
together, how does that work?
That I get to earn whatsometimes referred to as earned
attachment
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Exactly.
The earned secure attachment.
So there's two parts, right?
Like two wings to that or twosides of the coin.
And, and one of them is secureattachment with self, you know,
is really working on like beingmy own rock.
Right.
And what are the ways I need tobe feeling more in my own skin,
(37:02):
you know, in my own center,right.
Working through my ownattachment wounds from
childhood.
Right.
So that becomes a huge thingthat's usually needed, um, is,
is feeling more secure insideone's self.
And then yeah, as I lay out inthe book, like here's the
different steps or things youcan try out, you know, that are
(37:25):
ways to cultivate this with yourpartner, but a lot of it's not
to oversimplify it, but it'ssort of like, what do you need
to feel safe and valued andloved and what do I need to feel
safe and valued and loved, youknow, and desired and, and
negotiating and navigating allof that.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
And so having that discussion
Speaker 2 (37:49):
With a lot of discussion.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And usually not always, butusually in monogamy, there's a
lot of that gets bypassed andthere's just assumptions.
Yeah.
And expectations that were nevermade explicit.
So there it's really aboutmaking all of this explicit.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
When you see couples that move into non monogamy,
does it ever feel like onepartner is dragging the other
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yeah.
That definitely happens.
And it's hard, you know, whenyou, yeah.
I mean, usually it, there arecertain times where both people
are like, oh, this is a greatidea.
You know?
Or they already were maybeswingers, you know, or they'd
have a threesome, they bring athird and it was more sexual.
And then they meet someone theyhave feelings for.
(38:36):
And they're like, let's, let'stry this.
Right.
Um, but yes, there's absolutelytimes when one person is like,
this is what I am, or this iswhat I need and the other would
never have chosen it.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Right.
You
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Know?
And so I really work to slowdown and not have that reluctant
partner be dragged into it.
Right.
Quite, you know, cuz it's like,that's, that's gonna terminate
this relationship because it'sgonna traumatize that partner
too much.
Right.
So how do we go through periodsof experimenting with certain
(39:10):
things, you know, to see if thisother partner does actually
wanna do this.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yeah.
Which a lot of times, one thingI see though is the initial
reluctant partner.
They think it's impossible.
They'll, they'll never findanyone.
They'll never have feelings orattraction for anyone.
How could you go out and havefeelings for someone else and
still have feelings for me athome.
And it, once they find someone,they have feelings for it
(39:38):
suddenly like it uploads andthey're like, oh
now?
Like, like I just had feelingsand I came home and still had
feelings for you.
It can ha like they need theexperience, you know, just,
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Oh, that makes so much sense.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yeah.
And it, yeah,
Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah.
To know that they could have,like you just said feelings for
this new person and still havefeelings for the old person.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Exactly.
Right.
It like, it can't be theoreticalor conceptual.
They have to go through it.
And what's hard is sometimesthat takes six or nine months
before you actually findsomeone.
Sure.
You know
Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah.
And I wonder whether that'sthat's a, that six or nine
months is, is the finding orwhether that's really six or
nine months for me to be reallyopen to finding, you know, that
it takes a while just to cuz weare taught so clearly that you
can't do this.
Yeah.
You know that you can't havefeelings of closeness for two
(40:38):
people.
You can't really be emotionallyinvolved with more than one
person.
You can't love more than one.
That's kind of baked into ourkind of culture.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Yeah.
Right.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
And it's a huge shift to think, oh I can love you and
I can love you.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Exactly.
Yeah.
It's and that's one of thechapters in my next book too, is
like honoring the paradigmshift.
Right.
Like, oh this is a new paradigm.
And it just takes a while tokind of OnRamp to that.
Like it's not an instant processjust as we would know, you know,
if you decided to change fieldsand wanted to become a chemist,
(41:18):
right.
You wouldn't be a chem, youknow, chemistry expert in the
first few years even.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
And when you see people making this shift, is
there a gender difference thatyou tend to see?
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Yeah.
Women initiate, opening up.
I see more than men.
If we're talking about a same,uh, you know, more hetero
relationship.
Um, of course I think, you know,gay relationships have been
doing non monogamy forever andit, and it's kind of right.
Speaked into that dynamic thatin some ways yeah.
(41:59):
Versions of it have beenexpected for a long time, you
know, but not in straighthetero, you know, Monon,
normative relationships.
So normally I do see womeninitiating the opening up
process and then usually womenhave a lot easier time finding
partners.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
And so there's this, I do mention it in the book.
There's a privilege swap.
Yeah.
That suddenly happens.
And the man's like, wait aminute, this is not fun or easy,
you know?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Yeah.
And why do you think it's tendsto be the woman who opens up?
What's your view on that?
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah.
I think women are usually theones that are initiating growth
in relationships.
Anyway.
That's what we see.
They're the ones that say, let'sgo to therapy, let's read this
book.
Let's go to this workshop.
Right.
Mm-hmm
the, the spearheads of, of thegrowth they're often because of
gender issues also doing more ofthe emotional labor in the
(42:59):
relationship.
So
Speaker 1 (43:01):
Right.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
The, so there you go.
They're the ones that are gonnasay, you know what?
I want this, or there's aproblem here.
Maybe there's a solution orlet's try this, you know, mm-hmm
I've seen it even in there'sbeen moments or relationships
I've seen, the woman doesn'teven wanna be non monogamous,
but she tells her husband to be,but it comes from her.
(43:25):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He might have been complaining,you know, but she's the one who
came up with the idea.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Oh, I see.
I get it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And but if, if a couples movesthis way, the woman may be more
likely to be the initiator.
What do you think is the, theman's hesitance?
Yeah.
What's what's the, is it a fear?
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah.
There's usually, well, sometimesit's fear of losing their
partner.
Right.
Mm-hmm
that you haven't had to face.
Oh, what if someone else isbetter than me?
What if he makes more money thanme?
Right.
He has more status than me.
His penis is bigger than mine.
(44:09):
Like all of that.
Suddenly now the maleinsecurities get really fierce.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Activated yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Activated.
Right.
That you haven't ever bethinking about any of that, you
know?
Um, right.
So right.
Once you committed however longago that then those fears could,
you know, abate so to speak.
Um, so a lot of it getsreactivated and then sometimes
it's just disbelief.
Like, can I actually findsomeone, you know, who's gonna
(44:39):
want me if I'm only availabletwice a month.
And I mean, now at this point,I'm like, there is some, there
is more than one person whowants your situation.
You think you have the mostobscure kink, there's four other
people in a hundred mile radiuswho want the same thing on
(45:00):
Tuesdays.
Speaker 3 (45:07):
Yeah,
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, so lastly, you mentioned acouple times that you're writing
a new book and what's the newbook about
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Yeah.
So the new book is called polywise.
Um, hopefully it will be outwithin a year.
Um, and it's basically, youknow, me looking at the, okay,
what's going on in thistransition that couple wanna do
this, but it's so hard.
Right, right.
And it's not just jealousy.
(45:36):
It's not just get better atmaking your agreements more
clear.
Those are important, but it'snot, that's not sufficient.
And attachment was one thing onthe list.
And so this book is the othersort of five or six things on
that list
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Of oh, interesting
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Of, here's why it's hard and here's what, you know,
you can do.
Yeah.
So one is like, how do younavigate a paradigm shift?
That's a big undertaking.
Mm-hmm,
orientation completely torelationship and life, um,
partners who neverdifferentiated.
So oh wow.
You're having to go through anentire differentiation process
(46:14):
and face challenges ofcodependency.
Things like that.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
That's so interesting.
So it's, it's, it's all the,like you said, all the non kind
of, um, attachment issues be,and there's a ton of those.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
There's a few of them , right?
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Sort of like looking at theroots and there's, you know,
five or six different rootissues that that couples are
experiencing.
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Yeah.
And have you, have you beensurprised at the level of
success that you're that secure?
Uh, poly secure has gotten, Imean, cuz it's kinda a lot of
press
Speaker 2 (46:54):
It's blown me away Away.
I mean I knew some people wouldappreciate it, but you know, I
just, I feel like, I, I thinkI've said this before, like I
was just the cook that made themeal that people were hungry
for.
Like, you know, that, thatpeople in this community, um, in
(47:15):
this lifestyle and thisorientation were, you know,
needing something like that.
And that's a credit too, to myeditor, my publisher who knew
this book was needed, you know?
Um, but yeah, even mainstreampeople are, I mean, they're not
trashing the book, it blows meaway, you know, they're, they're
recommending the book.
Right.
It's yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
That's great.
But yeah, but that, that has tokind of stretch the boundaries
of how you see yourself.
Cuz now you're now suddenlyyou're a, a, a highly successful
sought after author, not just asa therapist that kind of, that
kind of expands your world.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
There's there's for better orworse because there's like for
better,
Speaker 1 (47:58):
For
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Worse.
Right.
Cause yeah, there's been a wholelearning curve on my end of like
whoa, abundance issues now.
Like
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
That's great.
Yeah.
So Jessica, thank you so muchfor talking with me today.
That's been so interesting and Ithink the work you're doing is
so great and so important tokind of de-stigmatize and expand
and acknowledge attachmentopportunities live are exist
well beyond just monogamy.
Yeah.
That, and I think that really isgonna help tons and tons of
(48:31):
people.
So thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah.
You're so welcome.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
That's our episode for today.
I hope you found it interestingand useful, but most of all, I'd
like to thank you for listening.
If you have a minute, please hitthe subscribe button and give us
a rating.
And I hope to see you again soonon another episode of sex, love
and couples therapy.
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