Ep 101: Conscious Relating: From Solo Poly to Sex Magic with Dane Tomas

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
A lot of this started withtracking fears and shadows and

(00:06):
then going towards the ones thatI felt like I could dare to go
towards, yeah, and so I justwant to touch on something
underlying what you just said.
You know, we're afraid ofcertain elements of sexuality,
but we're really also afraid offeeling and raw emotion. And I
think that's why sexuality canbe challenging for men, because
we, you know, there's all thisconditioning around wanting to

(00:26):
be like a good lover or a goodwhatever.
Yo, yo, yo. Lovers. Welcome,welcome, welcome to sex, love
and everything in between, we'rethe O'Neills. You're here with
Meg and Jacob, andthis is the place we have really
uncensored conversations aboutsex, intimacy and relationships.

(00:47):
We're super excited you're here.
Enjoy this episode.
Hey, lovers, welcome, welcome.
Welcome to another episode ofsex, love and everything in
between. Meg is out at socialbrew with ocean. They're having
a day out. Got the house tomyself, so I thought I would

(01:09):
invite probably the our weirdestguest. And you know, I say that
with love, but this guy heresitting beside me. His name is
Dane Thomas, and welcome to theshow, bro. Hey bro, good to have
you here. I feel like we I saidthis to Meg when I read your
post, and like, I feel like wewould have been really good
friends at primary school. Ifeel like you were the way that

(01:30):
you write. It's like, I feellike I feel more understood
whenever I read your content.
And it's a crazy thing to saybecause you live a very, very
different way of or you've comethrough a journey that is very,
very different to mine,especially, you know, a lot of
this personal development worldor the Spiritual World, a lot of

(01:50):
your stuff, to me, was just likeeye opening. And I'm just going
to reference a few other brosthat have been, like, really
pivotal in my perspectiveshifts. You know, Tyron, who's a
good brother of yours, Dannyredbar and other guys. These
were guys that were in a sec,like, in the sexuality space
that was, like,terrifying to me, my fellow
like, slutty Viking kind ofdude, the slutty

(02:12):
Viking bros. And like, I wasterrified of all of you because
I because my understanding ofthe world was man, woman, dog,
two cars, house, working a jobfor 50 years. And then I started
to explore plant medicine. Andthen I got connected to like the
light, like light spirituality,this kind of floaty, just

(02:35):
surrendered to the universe. Andthen I started to explore this,
like I started to feel thedeeper stuff coming through for
me. And you guys were a realpermission slip for me to start
to explore desires that I in thepast would have labeled as
fucked up, gross, weird, gay,bi, all of those things. And

(02:58):
it's you know, and I stillreally love all of your posts,
because I can feel beneath yourcontent. There's this like,
there's this deeper, energetickind of undertone to what you're
saying. It's like, I'm sharingthis not from a place of I'm
right or I'm wrong, but I'msharing it from places like this
is what I've inquired with andwhere I'm currently at, and I
think it's so fucking important,especially with what's going on

(03:19):
in the world and with the riseof the the TRad wife, Trad life
movement and and I sometimesfeel a little bit like that's
what I want. And at times I'vegot to check myself, like, okay,
cool. Where am I still trying tohold on to or try to control my
life? So yeah, bro, it's so goodto have you here, and I think

(03:39):
you're going to give a reallywicked perspective on a way of
relating and sex andspirituality that we haven't had
on the show yet. So thanks forbeing here.
Love that super happy to behere. So I want to
just start straight, straight atthe the crux of you know, our
relating styles. Like, I'mmonogamous, I'm married, I've
got a kid. I live in thesuburbs. I have a dog. It's like

(04:03):
so class. I feel it's soclassic. But for me, it's really
fulfilling, and even from from aperspective, like it looks like
that. But for me, therelationship that Meg and I have
is is very deep, and we'veexplored many different worlds
and realms when it comes to ourrelationship. So for you, like
you've polyamory is how you youwould say poly. Or can you just

(04:28):
give us, give us a rundown oflike, relationship styles for
you and your relationship styleand how that how that looks. Or
can you give us a definition asbest you can? Yeah, and
it's tricky, because I feel likeI'm going to use a whole bunch
of buzzwords, and I, up untilvery recently, have avoided a
lot of those, and then foundmyself going, you know, it's
actually useful to use some ofthese categories, just for my

(04:50):
own clarity and alsocommunicating to people,
especially because I spend a lotof time in, like the tantra
world, and I've been kind oftraveling the world a lot the
last couple years at. Friend,events, festivals, yada yada
yada. So, at the risk ofsounding like a bunch of
buzzwords all at once, you know,but I would say currently, I see
myself as solo poly, which ishilarious when I wrote about

(05:13):
that, because some guys like,don't you just mean fucking
single, you know? Because it'slike from and really, I guess
for me, this, this stuff is,it's a lot deeper than the
structure, you know, like, Iknow that on the surface it's
like, I mean, really, what areyou there's really only three
possibilities of structure,right? There's monogamous, non

(05:36):
monogamous, slash poly, whichpeople would debate what those
mean. But let's just put thosetogether. And there's celibate.
And to me, all three of thosepaths are valid. I have embodied
all of them at different timesand and even sometimes it kind
of gets confusing to explain,because they kind of start to
merge and blend in me, not soblatantly split, you know, like

(05:58):
I technically am married, eventhough Mia lives in Berlin and
travels the world and we, youknow, romantically, pretty
complete, but we're stillsomething, you know. And we
journeyed about five years ofopen marriage. But some points
in time, inside that openmarriage, very monogamous
energies and moments and times,you know, and other times super

(06:22):
open poly coming back fromlovers houses and cuddling up
and going, Okay, I'm gonna havea sleepover with blah blah blah
on the weekend. Okay, I lovethat for you, or like, I'm not
happy that you're gonna do, youknow, all that stuff. But to me,
I don't know if that shitmatters that much. You know, to
me, it's just structure, youknow, it's like, whether you
drive a four wheel drive or ahatchback or a motorbike, like,

(06:46):
it's still transport, you know,and it's still how you get to
where you're going to go. And Ithink what's more important is
how we're doing love, and howwe're doing how we embody love,
and how we do relating, and allthat sort of stuff. But yeah, if
we want to put it in categories,the current mode, categories at
the current moment, I would, youknow, if forced to fill out a
quiz, be like, okay, solo polybest explains how I'm living.

(07:09):
And what that means to me isthat it's not really structured
around anyone else. So for along time, my poly experiences
were more of an open relatingwith a primary partner situation
where it's kind of like, okay, Iwant to connect with this
person, but I need to make surethat flows with my wife, you
know, which is very is a coolplace to be. And, you know, in

(07:32):
the last two years, fullytransitioning to like, cool. So
this is between me and me, Meand the universe and me and
whoever. And no one has vetopower over anything, no one you
know. So really, there's been aflattening of hierarchy. And you
know what kind of Americanrelationship nerds will call
relationship anarchy is closerto how I'm living, and it's it's

(07:56):
really about navigating love andsex and Eros in the moment. And
what's happened to me a lot fromliving this life is like the
categories start to melt, youknow, like there are friends
that I used to be lovers withthat we're not necessarily
sexual, but I fucking deeplylove these humans, like I would,
as much as I would a partner oranything else, you know. Yeah,

(08:20):
it's really the categories havemelted a lot for me over the
last few years, I guess is whatI'm trying
to say, Yeah. And it feels likeyou've, like, you said you've
embodied each of the styles oreach of the relationship
structures, which a lot ofpeople either they're like, I'm
this and I'm never going to bethat, but they've never actually

(08:40):
open themselves to to what thatcould be, or what, what could
they could learn. And I'm notlike, I've never done an open
relating style of relationshipwith Meg, you know, we've been
together 10 years, but we've hadlike, over the last few years,
we've had beautiful, beautifulexperiences where people could
call that open relating, and howwe speak, or how we move in

(09:01):
community. And that's where Ilike what you've said, like
this, there was some melting ofthe of the rigidity for me, of
like, what Monogamy was, yeah,and that's why I can't get
around these guys that arehectic monogamous, and they're
like, anyone that isn't yourwife is you're not allowed to
look you're not allowed to spendtime with the opposite sex.
Won't leave my woman in she'snot allowed to talk to another
man unless I'm in the room. Andthese quite hectic, kind of

(09:24):
rigid styles i i would identifyas monogamous, but I can't agree
with the conditions that they'veput on that monogamous structure
andand so this is where we get to,
you know, the reasons why peopleare doing things are more
interesting to me than what sortof category they put themselves

(09:45):
in. And so it's just as there's,you know, I don't know what to
call those dudes, but I don'treally like their vibe at all,
you know. And it's, it's kind oflike this flashback to, like,
fucking 39 Under Christianity,or, like, you know,
fundamentalist Islam, of like,the wife stays in the home. It's
like, is that David data, or isthat Shariah law? Like, what's

(10:06):
happening here? It sounds alittle bit,
you know, they overshot thelanding. It like the data
airport. They've just, theyreally landed
in fucking repression territory.
And it's the same as, like,there is so many spiritual
coaches and teachers andinfluencers, and they're like,
it's sacred union. And I'm like,okay, like, technically, you've
taken an idea that was meant tobe between you and, like, the

(10:28):
beloved, you know, you'requoting, like Rumi, and you
think it's about your boyfriend.
It's like, it's that's betweenyou and God, you know, yes. And
now it's like, sacred union canonly happen if you're, like,
married, and you sleep on a bedof rose petals. And it's like,
Bitch, sacred union is betweenyou and you, and you can share
that with another person, andyou can be with them for 20
years. But a lot of those ideasare just really being basically,

(10:51):
I mean, I did a post thismorning. My main beef, we've
kind of gone left already, butlet's just roll it. Yeah, it's
with spiritual materialism,right? Yes. And so it's where
someone takes a spiritualconcept and tries to make that
about 3d reality. And we seethis with like, I'm a goddess.
You worship the Goddess, andit's like tantric worship of the

(11:11):
goddess would be seeing thedivine in your partner, not
getting confused that she is, infact, a super This is a human
person, and I love her, andthat's great. And then when I,
you know, cultivate a certainlevel of devotion, I'm able to
see the universe through her.
But this, this kind ofmaterializing these concepts,
just takes us into, like, reallyweird places. And mostly people

(11:33):
are just doing it to justifywhat they already believe,
which, you know, David, dataconcepts turn into reinforcing
the 1950s I want my wifebarefoot and pregnant and having
eight kids, and we all drink rawmilk. And it's like, okay, what
is wrong with you people? Andwhy do you that's fine, but why
do you then need to kind of tryto legislate that for others?

(11:54):
And I think that's where, that'swhere the friction happens. But
I also just want to say just asthat is like a, to me, really
ignorant application ofmonogamy. There's plenty of
people out there doing quote,unquote polyamory, and it just
kind of means fucking around.

(12:16):
And, you know, using that tojustify being non committal,
which is not, is not even wrong,but it's like, it would be true
to be like, I just like to keepthings casual, you know, whereas
for me, polyamory is not reallythat casual. It's like a lot of
work, yes, and a lot of deepcommitment. So there's this

(12:37):
projection of, like, poly ispeople who can't commit. It's
like, is really, because I feellike I've committed to, like,
the advanced setting of lovingthe last fucking eight years.
So, you know, Itotally, and that's the thing.
Like, yeah, there's that ideaof, like, the poly, and I think
that's so it's so easy to smashthe poly community around. Like,
are you guys just not commit oravoid any like, you don't have

(12:58):
any direction. You're notwilling to, you know, commit to
anything. You're not willing tobe devoted. And it's like, I
don't actually believe that whenyou do go into the deeper
practice of it, that that's thetruth. And just watching some,
you know, some people online,and the way that they
communicate about Polly, it'sjust like, I don't you're trying
to teach something that I thinkyou've really fully like,

(13:21):
deepened with. Andhere's a tricky thing, because
it really is an emergent style.
So like monogamy, for good orbad, you can find a lot of
references, yes, and you have tokind of look hard to find really
good ones, but there's plenty ofthem, if you look right of
healthy relationships, andpeople who have unpacked what

(13:42):
that looks like and how to do itwell, poly and ethical, non
monogamy. You know, it's stillfringe, like it's growing, but
it's still really fringe. Andso, like, for me, I had to, and
I was lucky. I was inalternative communities of and I
had older, open relators andpoly people and relationship

(14:03):
anarchy people and whatever youwant to tantric, slutty people,
wild, just wild freed up peoplewho were fucking living very
differently to what I knew. Sothere was references of, I like
how they did that. I don't likehow such and such managed that.
Well, that was a mess, you know,I got to gather some of those,
but, but it's rarer. So, youknow. And it's one of the other

(14:24):
classic things, like polydoesn't work. I tried it once,
and it's okay. So did you trymonogamy once? And then you've
tried monogamy 15 times, and youstill only average at it, if
we're honest, you know, you'restill just about getting by. But
you tried poly once, and so thenthe system of poly is what's
broken. Really, at the end ofthe day, it's people's ability

(14:45):
to relate, people's ability tolove, people's ability to
navigate their own nervoussystem is what's going to
determine good relating,regardless of what little
category you you choose,you know? Yeah, what? So if we
were like, Let's bring somecontainment to this.
Conversations that we don't endup on the moon. But what were
some of the key things that youtook like that with deep
learnings, or that you feel yougot from Poly Emory that like,

(15:06):
for me, one of the things that Isee is like, you definitely have
to learn how to fuckingcommunicate, yeah. But what are
some of the key things thatyou've taken from your
experience with that kind ofrelationship?
I think one of the biggest onesfor me is learning to understand

(15:28):
the human nervous system, bothmy own and a partner, slash
partner slash lovers. Andbecause there's things people
can like ideologically believe,I believe we're allowed to be
free, Jacob, you're free to dowhatever you want. And then it's
like, Why the fuck did you dothat? I hate you. And it's like,
too when people do things tooquick, too fast, then triggers

(15:51):
happen a lot more, right? And soone thing I learned early on
was, like, a little trafficlight system for communication,
of like, with your partnertalking about, okay, I'm going
on a date with such and such andOkay, well, if you guys have a
cuddle and a make out, that'sgreen, I fully would celebrate
that. If you guys, like, I don'tknow, got naked together and

(16:15):
maybe had oral that would beyellow. It would be a little
stretch, but I'd be okay withit. If you go over there and
fuck her and don't come hometonight, that will be red for
me. That would be more than Icould handle. And I know that,
and so that that gives a sort ofreality of, like, Ah, don't.
Like, I didn't have a lot ofrules in my relationship with

(16:36):
Mia, but we basically had anunderstanding of, like, let's
just not red line each other'snervous systems. Yeah,
that's a great fact that couldbe any relationship. Let's not
red line each other's nervous.
And the only difference is, withkind of open relating and poly
you're getting, you'reincreasing, potentially, the
number of opportunities to dothat, because you're exposing
vulnerable things. But I meanraising two kids and running a

(16:59):
business together, you know,already that's, you've still got
the possibility for redliningeach other quite a lot, you
know, yeah, but that thing oflike, okay, potentially I'm
gonna go fuck someone else. Oh,that's a spike right there for
most people a lot of the time.
And so learning how to dancewith that and, and what's, you
know, learning what healthystretches, versus like, Yeah,

(17:20):
I'm okay with everything. Oh,that was way too much for me,
and it's it doesn't, you know,you don't just shrug it off the
next day it's going to besometimes hard to move through,
sometimes irreparable to movethrough. So like that for me,
that is deeper than like,communication skills, yes, epic.
But like understanding that thenervous system has capacity

(17:41):
limits. They can grow over time.
You know, there's things I wouldexperience now that five years
ago would have put me in apanic, or if I can, you know,
borderline psychotic, paranoidepisode. I'm like, Ah, I felt a
mild contraction when you saidyou wanted to spend the night
with him, and then I had aworkout and self pleasure, and

(18:02):
then it's gone, love that foryou guys. And it's like, ah,
that that would have been deathonce, and now it's like a minor
thing to process that might takeme 20 minutes, you know. And I'm
not saying that's I've becomesomething mortal like touch
wood. There's still things thatcould trigger me, but the
capacity has changed a lot overtime, and it's just
understanding that, yeah,there's like, a mental,

(18:24):
emotional side to it. But forme, kind of nervous system is is
king at the end of the day, whenwe're triggering potential
survival, fight, flight, freezetype responses if we go too
hard, too fast. And I thinkthat's what I see with, like,
young poly couples. Is it cool?
We're free to do whatever wewant, whenever we want. It's
like, Yeah, but like, do youcare about that guy? Because

(18:46):
that's gonna fuck with him alot. And there's, there'll be,
there's gonna be a limit, youknow, there's gonna be an amount
that is the right amount, theright time. And I think that's
where the skills you have todevelop,
yeah, for me even just likeapplying that to my
relationship. So I get to apoint sometimes where, like, my
nervous system has reached itswindow of tolerance, yep, and

(19:09):
the woman that I deeply love isnow the person I resent out of
everyone, like, why am I even inthis relationship? Why is she
asking me to fill her waterbottle again? Why is she doing
it's like, Ah, I have reached mycapacity, yes, and I could only
imagine that in a polyrelationship, there would be
like, maybe it might not be asdeveloped, like, as drip fed. It
might be that, like you said,the spikes. Do you feel that

(19:32):
there is any of that kind of,like, drip feed that can slowly
infiltrate a poly relationshiplike that? There's, there's
different approaches, you know,and like one, I dabble with
different words and borrow fromeach of them. And one is more
like, yeah, it's like the, let'scall it the trauma, informed
nervous system, lots ofcommunication, having our little

(19:52):
spreadsheets of who's seeing whowhen, kind of all that. Like
California poly, you know, yeah,very nerdy Cali poly. And then
there's kind of more like. Amystery school, wild, free
Tantra poly, which is like, I'mjust gonna throw myself on the
altar and let myself be crackedopen to love or whatever, you
know and that they both canwork. And what has worked for me

(20:13):
better is having an awareness ofboth sides and mixing and
matching, and because one sideis working off, let's carefully
try to navigate and berespectful and not trigger each
other and have a kind ofpsychological awareness and lots
of conversations. And it'sskillful, but can be exhausting
in itself. Like I had someonefirst kind of tantra babe I

(20:37):
dated in like, 2012 2013 and shewas like, Well, I'm going to be
dating you. And I was like, No,I am on a mission. I didn't need
to be sitting around with allyou probably people having your
little fucking meetings tomanage emotions. I assume what
you guys are like, what a mess.
You know, I was like, my hungryentrepreneur era, and I knew
that that style of having littleprocess meetings all the time. I
was like, What the hell is wrongwith you people? I hate those.

(20:57):
Yeah, and I have a little moretolerance and enjoyment, even
for that now, but also becauseit's not my only method. Like I
can source myself in deepconnection to nature, to spirit,
to self, you know, like, I'vehad multiple deaths in my life
in the last few years, and I'vereally tried to use those to

(21:20):
help open me into, like,surrender, you know. And after
having, like, a best friend die,my dad die, a mentor die, really
trying to be with those thingsthat kind of fucking tore me
open, you know, compared to thatbeing upset that someone I'm
with is sleeping over at someoneelse's house, it just seems kind
of small. It's like, oh, it'slike a minor inconvenience, you

(21:41):
know, it's like, they, they'regoing to be alive and well,
tomorrow we'll cuddle in themorning like, no big deal. But
it's because some part of me hasgotten better at sourcing itself
in, like, the void or whatever,or in God, or in connection to,
you know, being this, you'vegot the what I'm trying to
understand and just correct meif I'm wrong, is, like, you're

(22:04):
able to source what you needwithout going to that person.
Largely,yes, like, I'm not saying I've,
like, transcended my need forhuman connection and care.
That's still very important.
But, and I learned this fromother people who, who I've
witnessed them because, like,Oh, she really kind of handles a
lot of this herself, and weprocess what we need to process,

(22:25):
but there's a deep selfconnection and reliance. And I
feel like that's also a partwhere, you know, people were
jumping in open, relating andpoly, and it's like, why that's
I think so for me, I want tomeet all of myself and be as
unlimited of an expression of ahuman being as I possibly can,

(22:49):
right? And so facing triggersaround jealousy and insecurity
is like, cool. That's that's onthe track of the that's the
mountain I want to climb anyway.
So this process is helping mespeed up my growth. You know?
This is not primarily someonewhose goal is to, like, build a
family, build a business, haveus like, my main goal is not
like stable structure. My maingoal is like spiritual evolution

(23:12):
in life, you know. And so I seethis as a speeder upper of that.
So that's and it still doesn'tmean I'm down for every trigger
every time, like, I still managewhat I'm available for, but that
puts me very different thanwhen, you know, like, I have
friends who are like, just hadtheir second kid. They're like,
Why do you even do it? And I'mlike, Okay, it's gonna be kind

(23:33):
of hard to transplant into yourthis would not support your
world right now. You know, thiswould be the worst thing you
guys could do right now for me,because one of my, not one of
my, the goal is to kind of beGod, if you like, is to be
connected to, you know, the one,yeah, and to live, you know, as

(23:53):
humanly possible, to bring thatthrough my life. This speeds
that up. This is, this is partof that practice. So that gives
me a much bigger reason than,like, me and the wife want to
spice things up a bit. It'slike, Yay, you know, like,
under Ray, yeah, let's go tobras and things, yeah.
Is like, is the juice go? Is thejuice worth the squeeze? You

(24:15):
know, it's like, if that's allyou really want, like, try some
handcuffs or something, youknow, like, you don't need to
fuck someone else. Maybe, maybeyou do. I don't know. I
feel like you know that it'syour path, and you're not going
to force it on anyone else,either. I can feel that like
you're very clear, like, if youwant to under, if you if you
want to have a conversationaround it, I'm going to speak to
it. I can be a bit cheeky onlineand throw, you know, throw out

(24:35):
the bait. But like, for me, it'slike you're doing this primarily
for yourself, not for anyoneelse. Yes,
and you know, I do see anddesire that there is the
potential for embodied spiritualcommunity where where

(24:57):
relationship style is more.
Consciously chosen, and whereyou know that that mixture of
all these different styles iskind of speeding up growth and
creating more magicinterconnection, etc, which is,
is not the same as I wanteveryone monogamous to like,
it's not that, yeah, but I dohave a desire to, I guess,

(25:19):
deconstruct some of theassumptions that are built into
mainstream society. And I thinkthis is where the kind of poly
mono argument, you know, whichonline it can be in that format,
which I don't really agree with.
But one of the reasons thatpeople who really identify with

(25:40):
monogamy and traditionalstructure. Who get can be
unbidden on their high horse aremissing is you guys are in the
privileged position. You live ina society that's built for you.
And you know, if you fill out aform or like someone's fucking
dying in a hospital bed orwhatever, it's like, cool. So
you're the husband, and it'slike, no, I'm a member of a
seven part poly pod who, youknow, these fuckers could have

(26:02):
loved each other for 17 yearsand be deeply. It's like, Hmm,
system doesn't recognize that.
It's like, yeah, save acertificate from a priest. It's
like, okay, let's, let's justunravel.
I was a priest last week. Thisweek. I'm not, you know
what I mean, like, basicallywhat it's like, anything when
the structure is supporting ourmode of being, we tend to not

(26:26):
need to question the structure.
And as soon as you start dancingoutside of it, you're like, hang
on a minute. This isn't fair.
It's like, if I'm in awheelchair, suddenly I get very
aware that there's not a lot oframps. If I'm not, it's like,
steps, they're great.
Yeah, I think that the awarenesspiece, like, yeah. And I like,
what you said around like, yeah,creating a space where you could

(26:47):
essentially, like, a communityor something, where you could go
and explore the different, like,what's beneath all these
structures, yeah? That, for meis like, yeah, that's something
that I feel like, with the withthe community that I've got here
on the Gold Coast, and we'vereally, like, nurtured and loved
up on the last few years.
There's people that I have adeep relationship with that is

(27:07):
that isn't really like, it's notthat we we go out on dates or
make out or fuck even, it'senergetically, like we're
intimate, like I know thingsabout you, I yeah, I share, and
I've shared experiences with youthat are deeply intimate, that
have nothing to do with aphysical sensation or a
friction,which to, you know, kind of
whatever these guys were usinghis example for, to those guys,

(27:27):
that's already a radical levelof openness, yeah.
So for me, that was, and Ididn't realize it that, because
I've done the erotic blueprint.
And for me, I'm an energeticwhatever that is, yeah. And for
me, like feeling is, like theenergetic experience is so
important. For me, you'reenergetically non monogamous.
Energetically non monogamous.
Yes, I'm fringe. Finallycategories, bro, don't no one

(27:50):
can understand me. I'm sodifferent.
Get your energy back over there.
But for me, that was, uh, like,that gave me an understanding,
like, oh, like, I really likethe energetic depth, or, like,
even the conversations we werehaving, like, I've only met you
once at our friend's wedding,and then we were standing there
talking about some radical shitwithout even asking, you know,

(28:12):
how your day was. There was thisreally cool. And for me, like,
that level of like, energeticalignment at the in the where
we're where we're going withthese conversations like this is
exciting for me, yeah? And it'ssomething that like feeds me.
And I'm like, I feel like, Ileave feeling like, filled up
after these sort ofconversations. And I'm finding
that the more I open to thosemoments, the more range I have,

(28:38):
yeah, for life, yeah. Ratherthan being like, you know, no
day and I have to talk aboutwhat we said we're going to talk
about, which was this, this andthis. And I had a series of
questions, this, this and this,and I and we, you know, that
wouldn't actually serve where mywhere I want to go, or what I
want to experience in this life.
So I think, yeah, I'm really,really liking that. Love that
one. The thing just popped in myhead is, like, probably about

(29:01):
two, maybe three years ago, wasin a situation where married and
have a girlfriend, and my wifeand girlfriend are best friends,
and I'm at a party in Byron, notreally with them. They're there,
but they're doing their ownthing. I'm just cuddled up in
the corner all night with twogirls, three girls, different
people, holding hands, talking.
Not nothing sexual is happening,but there's a lot of intimates.

(29:23):
A lot of just like, Oh, I'vealways liked this person. Here
we are just smooshed up on thecouch watching the evening and,
you know. And I come home thatnight and I'm hanging out with
Mia and Maz, and they're kind oflike, lovingly teasing me again.
Oh, you got to have your littleCancerian slutty cuddles all
night. So happy for you, babe.
And I'm like, oh my god, this isamazing. And I guess because the

(29:46):
world we've been navigating is,you know, the tricky part is
like, okay, fucking someone elseis still kind of a deal that we
need to work through. But thatleaves a reality where cuddles
and hand holding and eyecontact, which 10 years. Before
in the relationship I was inwould have been like you fucking
did you sat at a party withanother woman, holding hands and
talking all night, like, whatthe fuck you know? Would it be

(30:08):
so unacceptable? And I had thismoment of this just gratitude,
of like, Ah, it's not just aboutthis sex thing and they it's
like for that type of intimacyto be freely available, and no
one is shamed or triggered orthreatened by it. In fact, it's,
you know, they were teasing me,but they were loving me. Like,
oh, you're getting what. That'swhat you need, isn't I'm like,

(30:30):
That's what I mostly need, is alot of Cuddles, you know? And it
was like, Oh, my God, I'm justallowed to be myself, you know?
And like, Yeah, nothing eroticinvolved. But because Eros and
more challenging things havebeen navigated, that leaves
these small intimacies thatwould be radical for a lot of
people really available. And itwas like, Ah, I don't I could

(30:53):
never go back to a world wherethat wasn't welcome and
celebrated. You know, that wouldbe not, that would be
detrimental to my life.
Yeah. Well, put, man, I thinkthat like, I'm just thinking of
like, the the extreme, let'scall it the extreme right, like,
where guys can't even like,they'll shake a hand, but they
can't even like, like, that'sthe extent of like, friendship.

(31:14):
Like, we shake hands. Like,yeah, don't look in my eyes for
too long. Yeah, yeah. And that,that is a, you know, for me,
because men's work is my primaryservice to the world, it's like,
we create intimacy at thesemen's events, which is so crazy,
because by the end of it,everyone's like running around,
like, cuddling, jumping on eachother. There's like, guys just

(31:35):
like, huddled up around a fire,or, like, just Army. I was like,
oh, intimacy is such animportant piece that we're
missing or that we're enforcingon one other person our entire
life,like the demand for one person
to provide all of that when, asfar as we know, we're pretty
much built for like littlehunter gatherer bands that will
be touching all the time,sitting around, leaning on each

(31:57):
other. You know that that levelof group regulation and
connection is what we're builtfor, and we wonder why we're
all, you know, two parents, twokids sitting in front of the
television set working 50 hoursa week, where it's like, Why do
I feel like something's missing?
It's like we're deeplyconnected, like, as like, social
primates, you know? And it'slike, if you look at someone

(32:19):
else, I'll hate you. And it'slike, okay, that's not healthy.
It's funny that you say thatbecause, like, when we have,
because I'm I love having peopleat the house, and that's my
thing. And Meg has wasn't,didn't grow up like that as
much, but she's now, like,really, like, we love having
people in the house because itcreates a different structure
for intimacy to occur. Yeah, andwhether that's just one other

(32:40):
person, whether it's a man orwoman, or we have like five
people over all of a suddenthere's a whole new dynamic for
intimacy to reveal itself,whether it's like, instead of
Meg and I eating dinner and thensitting down and watching
another episode, so boom, theboard games come out, yeah, or
the guitar comes out, or we'reat the back and or on the jiu
jitsu mats and we're rollingaround, and it's like, It's all

(33:01):
of these things that we start todo that create more connection,
yeah, and that. And I thinkthere's a what I'm learning from
from you and from other peoplethat have opened my eyes to
this, this other structure,which I I've never really
experienced, but I've only seenit's like, Oh, this isn't about
me going and fucking someoneelse, just to say that I've done

(33:21):
it so I've now done the polything. No, I don't want to do
it. It's like, can I just openmy aperture a little and, like,
widen my lens and be like, Cool,all right, I actually want to
hold this person, say, I want togive this guy a hug, or I want
to, like, pick this woman up andspin her around and, like, at
the party. Or I want to, I wantto go and have a deep
conversation around this topicwith this person. And that's not
going to mean anything otherthan I'm following what feels

(33:43):
good. Itjust means many loves. You know,
polyamory technically meansloving many, which could look so
many different ways. Yeah,yeah. Epic, man, you cool to
shift gears. Fuck yeah. Let's doit. I feel complete sex magic. A
this is something I've beenwanting to, like, I think read
so much about yourself. I wantto there's a selfish part of me
for this podcast. Like, I needto understand what sex magic is

(34:05):
for you. Because, like, when Igot into and there's a whole
heap of podcasts, if you want togo back and list, like, Listen
Meg, like, surprised me with asex dungeon once and like, it
put me it red lined me at aspecific point when I was bent
over tied to this horse. Butlike for me, like sex magic, I,
you know, I explored but play, Iexplored self pleasure

(34:27):
practices. And I started to dothat because I because Meg was
having a sexual awakening, so tospeak, and she was exploring
this wider range of pleasure.
And I was like, whatever she'sexperiencing, and how that's
translating into her radiance,into her business success, and
into the the woman that she'sbringing me like, I want to

(34:49):
explore this. I can see thatthere's value in this. And I
want to explore my own sexualitya little more. Yeah, and like,
from like having a wank on thetoilet to then Tran, you know,
to. Up leveling to running abath, lighting candles and using
oils and different things andlike touching other parts of my
body, non erogenous zones, andfeeling all of this new

(35:10):
sensitivity come online that wasfucking earth shattering for me.
But I'd love to know, like, kindof give us the rundown on sex
magic, because I feel it goes somuch more than just, you know,
learning how to touch yourselfand what it can mean for like
manifestation or creation inyour life.
So where to start? Really, weknow what sex is. Magic, for me,

(35:32):
is about intentional creation ofresults, you know. And so when
we bring sexuality and magictogether. It's about using
erotic activation, sexuality forintentional purposes, so that
could be self connection, thatcould be connection to a greater

(35:54):
whole, like the cosmos, youknow, like, I run something
called church group, selfpleasure ritual. And you know,
church should be a little bitcheeky, but it's also like,
through this practice, we'reconnecting to the divine. We
don't need a, you know, prieston stage to do that for us. We
can go direct through the body.
We can use it fortransformation. We can use it
for manifestation. We can use itfor healing. We can use it for

(36:16):
connection, community, etc. Soreally, that can look a lot of
different ways. Like it could becandles in the bath. You could
still have a wank on the toilet,you know, and still be sex
magic. I will often take mygoals and in my self pleasure
practice. And so how that mightlook is, firstly, a stage of
just connecting to the body, andusually, like, yes, a more

(36:39):
holistic approach. So touchingwhole body would be part of
that, not just straight for thecock, but also, there's nothing
wrong with that either. Soreally connecting to the body
and finding like activation andarousal with no real focus other
than the body, and then at acertain point, like once, there
is a what in chaos magic, theywould call Gnosis. Once you're

(37:03):
starting to enter like a blissstate or an altered state, then
you might look at images, recitea mantra, hold a picture in your
mind, and you know, from aslightly more scientific point
of view, or just grounding it inwhat's actually happening. What
you're really doing is using thestate that you're the fact that
you're super impressionableduring arousal, to essentially

(37:25):
drop a goal or an image orintention from like the
conscious body of mind deep intothe deep unconscious. So it's a
bit like you might use hypnosis,but in my opinion, 10 times
stronger. You know, because weall come hard wired with the
fact that we have an arousalcircuitry, and most of us have
played with it a lot of timesalready. So there's, there's a

(37:47):
pretty fast path to getting intoan altered state through
sexuality, and that can be usedto, yeah, imprint essentially,
essentially, for me, there's agoal of something that I want,
if I can run it through my wholebody and that arousal bliss
state is still there, then I'mpretty congruent with that
thing. Sometimes, if you'recalling in something big, you're

(38:08):
going to move like grief orshame or a blockage that, you
know, I wouldn't have thatblockage just to touch myself,
to touch myself. But as soon asit's like my business has
achieved this, or I've called inthis partner, or this has
happened, the journey suddenlytakes this different flavor of
like, oh, well, you got to workthat through. And you might be
crying, or you might be comingagainst, you know, finding

(38:29):
yourself closing. And then Iwould use breath and movement to
reopen and run that thing allthe way through. And so this can
be done a million differentways, like I do a lot of
different ritual practices,exercises. But essentially, I
feel like people a long time agoknew about this, and sex has
kind of become this kind of junkfood thing for the most part of

(38:50):
like, you know, what's red tubeand jerk off, or, like, whatever
it is. But as as Tantra alsoteaches, you know, these states
can be used to get us into muchmore high states of
consciousness. So there's also asense of like, this is part of I
teach with ista as well, whichInternational School, Temple
arts, that world, which callsitself shamanic Tantra. It's

(39:14):
almost like what Ayahuascashamans are doing with
Ayahuasca. We're doing with Erosas our primary medicine. And so
the more skillful we get withopening the body into different
states, the more differentthings we can use it for. And
healing is a big one as well.
Like healing past trauma,healing past life trauma,

(39:35):
healing anything. You know, itcan be done really quickly and
really easily in like a onehour, to our bodywork session,
which I would also see that assex magic as well. Yeah,
cool. And sex magical is insomething just do by yourself.
You can do it with apractitioner, and then you can
also do it with your partner.
I'm assuming partner,I run group things, which the
first is not necessarily agroup, or do you have everyone

(39:58):
touching? If. Other, like,church. Thing I mentioned is,
like a solo practice in groupthat
even, even just that terrifiesme, as for most people, and it's
like, yeah, like, that idea ofbeing in, like, being in a
circle, yeah, and being guidedinto a sex magic practice and
like, being unless I would feel,like, if you talk about the

(40:18):
body, I can feel the closure oflike, people might see me do
something that isn't normal,yeah, feel that I'm like, Oh,
wow, that'sa And so imagine, like, let's
say you went to four of those.
You know, imagine the differencein your life if you've reached a
place where, like, Oh, myconnection to self and my erotic

(40:40):
current is strong enough that Icould be in a room with other
people, and I'm neither ashamedof what they think, nor am I
like lusting after. It's likeI'm just connected in myself,
and I'm at ease. You know,there's something around
reconnecting. Because if youthink of like, you know, we talk
chakras, it's lower chakrastuff, you know, base and
sacral. We have a lot of shame,guilt, fear around those levels

(41:04):
of our being. And once thatstarts to move out, we move
through the world differently,you know. And this can be done
without, you know, no one'sgonna touch anyone, fuck anyone,
do anything, really. And I knowthis is considered weird, but
some I reached a point where I'mlike, it's kind of weird that we
don't have that, yeah? Like,because sexuality is innocent,

(41:26):
you know,yeah, and for me, like, my
upbringing, sexuality was thedevil, right? It was literally
that it was, it was the devil.
We don't talk about it, wedon't, we don't, we don't
approach it. And it's not, youknow it's, it doesn't happen
here, yeah. And it's like, it'sfunny, because you get it with
certain age, like, I think it ishappening here still. It's just

(41:46):
pushed really deep into theshadows. The priest did what
it's like when? Why does thiskeep happening? It's like, well,
maybe because you guys created areligious system that shames
something that is part of us,yes, and that is dysfunctional,
you know? And so bad thingshappen. Yeah,

(42:06):
sex at dawn was a book that Iread and that, yeah, that kind
of showed me that, ah, this isfucking shady. What's going on
here? Like, yeah, the TV, the TVchannels, they were promoting
the happy Christian family,moral Christian values. And then
they also owned all the pornchannels, right? And that was,

(42:26):
and they were selling them tosell to both sides, yeah? And
the porn was making, like, fivetimes more than the TV, and the
Christians are watching, and theChristians will, and it was the
men that were watching. It was,yeah, and it's crazy to to can,
and I was like, Holy fuck. Itwas a mind blowing moment for

(42:47):
me. I'm like, oh, so my desireand my lust and this, this, this
pleasure state that this is notbad. I don't need to force this
into the down deep within me andhide it or go in and watch porn
in the darkness, I can, I canfind a way to be with this
energy that doesn't require meto hide it.
Yeah, and, you know, I just wantto be clear, like where I'm

(43:10):
standing or what I'm kind ofadvocating for, is not the
position that like justsplashing sexual energy
everywhere unconsciously, isnot. That's not the world that I
see as the solution either.
That's that's actually somethingthat happens because we're quite
immature with it, you know. Andpeople, let's say people,

(43:32):
finally get the early stages ofa little bit of sexual
liberation. Then it's like,everyone wants to fuck everyone.
Everything's running everywhere.
And it's like, okay, well,essentially, what you've
essentially, what you've got tolook at is like, Okay, so we've
reached, like, a sort of earlyteens level of maturity. Here.
You've done one tantricworkshop. Now you're a kind of
tantric fuck boy. That's great,but we can't stop. We can't stop

(43:54):
at that level. Yes, and youknow, we're not trivializing
abuse, trauma, harm that hascome from the unconscious
channeling of sexual appetite.
So there's, there is, there is alogical and sane reason in the
early stages of these Abrahamicreligions of putting some rules

(44:16):
on that stuff. Yeah, theyweren't insane. They weren't
evil. There was a Mrs. My readon it as kind of a religion
history nerd, like there was anevolution happening where we're
wanting to move from maybe morepagan earth based would have
been more erotically connectedreligions that were a little

(44:38):
more dark for one of a betterword, not evil, but more
connected to the darker, denseras this sort of Christian style
frame comes in, which is muchmore like, you know, there is a
higher consciousness beingcalled by that stuff. But I
guess because of the level ofawareness integration, whatever
it was done really violently.

(44:59):
So. Like, okay, we're killingall the witches, we're shaming
all the fertility cults. We'remurdering all the whatever, you
know. And so this is pushing ofit into shadow. But this desire
to add consciousness andconnection to like the one I
think was, is a functional partof spiritual evolution on the
planet. It's just that it wasdone in like a repression, like

(45:21):
a harsh father kind of form,when actually, we could
integrate, like, Team Christianand team which into one
synthesized thing, you'd have afunctional
society. Yeah, yeah, makesperfect sense. Yeah. I think
about like, yeah. Like, deeproots, tall tree. I think it's
like, you cut the roots off thetree that's growing to the sky.

(45:41):
It's going to fall, fall overeventually, yeah. And that's
what I feel like, the thatreaching, and I did like I had,
like the the psychedelicexperiences, like, I now
understand what it feels like.
This feels like unconditionallove. Oh, my God. And then for
two years, you know, drinkingmedicine, ah. And then I drank
medicine, and it went, wore it,yeah, all the way down, right,
yeah. And I was like, What thefuck. And that was kind of the

(46:04):
we've shown you this, but nowwe're going to show you this,
yeah. And that was a realconfronting, but necessary part
of the journey for me is like,have to go back in and find
this, this connection. And,yeah, far out, man. Like, I
think you've really, yeah, Iwould say, like, my first 10,
1315, years of spiritual journeywas ascension based, yeah. And

(46:28):
then in my 30s, started toidentify, ah, I'm not that in my
body. I'm not that connected tomy sexuality. I don't really
know how to channel and useemotions. Well, I've been more
like regulating them with, like,witness consciousness and, you
know, intelligence and focus andwhatnot. And then, okay, we have
to unlock the descent journey.
And then now I would saythere's, there's a reasonable

(46:53):
marriage of both, like, I couldstill work that more, but like,
they are both somewhat inharmony. And it's like, but it's
tricky to find the descent ones,because all of the dominant
spiritual practices you firstfind, you know, meditation,
Christianity, Abraham, Hicks,whatever it is, you know, it's
all about, like, shout outto Abraham here. Love that

(47:13):
stuff, you know.
But it's like, Yes, great. Youguys are so conscious, but at
some point you're gonna have tostick something up your ass,
because you guys are reallyfucking repressed and blocked.
You're gonna have to open up.
It's, there's no, there's no,there's no skipping it. You
know, it's so funny when thatcame around, like, to put in
something, when I had to, like,I was like, I have to put

(47:34):
something in my ass. Like, itcame to, like, this is the time
I'm like, fuck what the fuck Imean,
I don't know if you've ever satthere, like, on asset or stone
or just in a whimsical moment oflike, Isn't it crazy that, like,
some parts of the body are like,Oh, the crown so holy, and other
parts like, Oh, that's a badpart of the body. That part's

(47:56):
evil, that's dirty, stay awayfrom it. And it's like, you
know, and it's coated in thekids. You're like, oh, poo,
haha, you know? It's like, fromday one, it's like, that's the
bad part, you know? And it'slike, ah, we've been on this
planet for half a million years,and we still think that some
parts are divine, and some partsare not, like, that's fucking
insane. You know, feet aredirty, don't touch. And it like,

(48:19):
yes, obviously practical, butit's but it was like, okay, so
walking on the earth is dirty,so the earth is dirty. So, like,
nature is dirty, so indigenouscultures are dirty. So, you
know, there's, there's a It'snot that hard to follow it and
find, like, oh, there's kind ofa colonial patriarchal thread in
all of this fucking shit. Like,damn it, yeah, now
and now, we've got a cansanitizer at the front of every

(48:43):
fucking store, and, like, it oneveryone's bench. It's, like,
everything's about like, makingsure that we're clean. Yeah, and
that personally does my head in.
And that was, like, my journeywith, like, unlocking, like, I
had some pretty somaticexperiences with, like, self
pleasure and bar playing, like,learning what it meant to open,
yeah, and like, surrender, whichwas so foreign to me. And it's,

(49:06):
you know,I think there's three or four
paths that open up all thisstuff that's in the shadow, and
definitely sex is one of them.
But for me, at the end of theday, it's death. You know, death
is the one. It's like, birth anddeath are the biggest truths.
You know, you've had kids.
That's a huge initiation, right?

(49:27):
Yeah, there's only one otherthat's as big, if not bigger
than that, which is, like, theone when you leave the planet,
you know? And it's like, we'reso death negative in our
culture, like we just don't wantto deal with that. And that,
yes, is the physical, practicalof death. Like, you know, put
them in of, don't look at itkind of thing. But it's also

(49:49):
egoic death, letting go ofcontrol, you know, and like, if
we look at the ass and theasshole, a lot of it is to do
with, like, you know, whensomeone gets hanged or whatever,
they shit themselves, there's a,there's a letting go. Of
control. There's a surrender,and it's, there's a shame around
all that. And it's really closeto, you know, the fear of death,
the fear of ego, death. Like, Iremember growing up, this is so

(50:12):
wild, my biggest fear was, like,I don't want to go to jail,
because if I go to jail, befucked in the ass, you know, and
that would obviously mean thatI'm gay, and I don't want to be
I'm not gay. It's like a 13years like, Where does this come
from? Like, that would be theworst thing, and I'm afraid of
it. And it was really ironic,because I got in lots of trouble
with the law, and always thisfear was like, fuck, am I gonna
get in jail and get fucked inthe ass? Because I really don't

(50:32):
want that, because I'm not gay,okay? And it's just like, what
has happened to my How did thisget coded into me? Like, it's so
strange that that was, like, theworst. That was the fate worse
than death, you know,yeah, yeah. So, like, the idea
of, and that was, like, such aterror, like, I was so scared of
being gay, that's another like,the idea was, like, it was like,
it was like, it was worse thandeath, yeah. And I think for

(50:53):
like, suicide is pretty strongin the men. For men, it's a
pretty fucked up thing thathappens a lot for men in there
between their, like, mid 20s andmid 40s. A lot like, it's fucked
up. And I think for me, it has alot to do with the shame, yeah.
And from what I've experiencedin the men's work space, in the

(51:14):
processes that we provide, like,a lot of stuff tracks back to,
like, sexuality, yeah, and notbeing able to explore that
appropriately. And I think for alot of men, myself included,
like I said that that churchself pleasures, but that what
that scares me, yeah? And I'mpretty open, compared to, you
know, a lot of the men, and ifwe're going to add some value

(51:37):
here, in regards to some stuffthat people can take away,
because I want to kind of frameit is, like, if a guy wants to
explore this, how does he goabout it? If he's, if he, if
he's, like, straight, like, thisstraight dude that's, like,
always done what he's alwaysdone. And he's like, kind of,
he's feeling the pool to explorethis, where I can feel those
deeper desires and is scared ofthem. What is, what are some

(51:59):
steps that he can take if we'regoing to put the teacher hat on
you? Yeah. I mean, in real life,this would be very tailored to
where, what where someone is atin their journey. But I think
for me, a lot of this startedwith tracking fears and shadows

(52:19):
and then going towards the onesthat I felt like I could dare to
go towards, yeah, and so I justwant to touch on something
underlying what you just said.
You know, we're afraid ofcertain elements of sexuality,
but we're really also afraid offeeling and raw emotion. And I
think that's why sexuality canbe challenging for men, because
we, you know, there's all thisconditioning around wanting to

(52:40):
be like a good lover or a goodwhatever, but the journey to
actually having that is aboutsurrender and being able to open
and being able to, like, surfthe currents of like, wild
emotion and energy, which is, bydefinition, if we're going to
use these terms, the feminine.
And so the practical approachis, on some level, you need to

(53:05):
find a way to integrate, quote,unquote, your feminine which we
could debate whether that's evena good label, but by which I
mean emotion, feeling Eros,being out of control, letting go
of control, letting go of power,although ironically, power is on
the other side. So like, itdepends where you're at. But

(53:25):
like, feeling feelings, beingwith feelings would be a start.
So like, you know, depending onhow early in the journey, like,
I think men's work and men'sgroups are really a good start
that's not already there. Of,like, being able to talk about
feelings is a good start. Butthen the next step is being able
to actually connect to andexpress feelings. And then I

(53:46):
think if someone is ready to gointo the sexuality space, I
think Tantra workshops are areally good start. If you're
really scared beginner, I thingsare good because then there's
nothing going to be there that'sreally that scary. It's just,
you know, I think things likeself pleasure without agenda is

(54:07):
really good. So, like, you know,we're all trained to kind of
visualize, you know, since I wasin high school, it's like, oh,
this girl that I want to fuck atschool, the teacher that I want
to fuck at school, or whateverimprobable scenario that makes
me aroused. You know, yes, the,you know, this, this pop star,
it's like, okay, a 13 year oldboy, you're never gonna get
that. But I understand why it'sexciting. All that is sort of a

(54:29):
barrier to the to the realthing. By the real thing, I
mean, like, you know, standingin the bathroom with the door
closed and doing 20 minutes, or10 minutes of just self, touch,
like legs, belly, body,breathing, feeling what's there,
and me just meeting what'sthere. I think is really where
it's at. You know, if you're asuper mask achiever, fit bro,

(54:51):
dude, you got to find someopposites. You know, if you're a
kickboxer, fucking take up yinyoga. You know, it's like, it's
just, it's almost laughablysimple, but it's like, Bay. The
game for me is integratingopposites. Yeah, so if I'm a
super cognitive genius fuckingcrypto trader, you gotta find a
way to feel your feelings. Goget a fucking Tantra massage. If

(55:12):
that's too much massage and bodywork, you know, just whatever
you know you're lacking in,start leaning into it. And it
doesn't have to be. It's anothermask thing. You don't have to
fucking skydive and throwyourself into things that are
getting scare the shit out ofyou. It can be gradual, but I
would say self pleasure. Dancesounds hilarious, you know. But

(55:34):
like dance, non linear movement,things that are going to open
up, flow, a really good place tostart. Yeah,
that's, that's so, yeah, I loveit because, like, we have a lot
of guys come through the men'scircles. They come to the
retreat since, like, there's,like, yeah, how do I keep in? We
did this this year, we actuallybrought in a whole lot of more
creative arts into the actualmen's retreat. So it wasn't just

(55:56):
the wrestling and the breathwork and the and the and the,
you know, the kind of, the spikein the shame circle and all this
crazy stuff, you know, webrought in, we had a brother
come in, and we did dance onemorning, and all the guys were,
like, so enlivened. And I think,you know, dance is such a for
me. What's really unlocked thatpart for me is like, singing,

(56:16):
yeah, singing has been huge.
Like, none of this is actuallyabout, like, there's no, there's
no sex, it's, it's like there'senergy flowing and like, I
think, like, what I'm learningmore and more is around, like
the energetics, rather than itbeing, I have to do it this way,
yes, and this is the path. It'sfrom to work from the opposite,
some from, from kind of firstprinciples. You know, the way I

(56:38):
look at it is that we are all ofit. And, you know, there's in a
lot of, like, spiritualcommunity, there's like, a
really reinforcing of, like,gender identity and norms, and
that's fine, like, if you didn'treally get to anchor those in
your life, it's probably good toinhabit them and feel what it
feels like to be. I finally feellike a man, you know, great.

(56:59):
And, oh, I'm so feminine. I'm awoman, you know, awesome. But
from like, a soul point of view,or from a spirit point of view,
you're fucking everything. Andfrom that first, you know, day
of like, Oh, got a little dick.
He's a boy Where's blue.
Shouldn't be crying, you know,it's like, it's like, it's all
loaded in so quickly and sodeeply that you can be 50 years

(57:20):
old and haven't cracked the codethat, like, spoiler alert,
you're all of it. And like, howdo we get to a world where,
like, dancing and singing, like,even the fact I'm like, Yes,
take up some feminine practiceslike singing. Like, how the fuck
is that inherently what? What inwhat way has that been linked
to, like, biology and alsogender. That's fucking insane,

(57:41):
yes, but what because the guy inhow much to like growing up
like, it was so confusing to methat, like, all the girls would
love the guy singing and playingguitar, even though something in
me was, like, gay, you know, oh,and like, why is it because,
like, this feelings, becausethere's vulnerability, and it's
like, I'm going to be as toughas I can possibly be, and in my,

(58:03):
like, pre teen logic, that wouldmake me more attractive to women
because I'm doing a good, youknow, a good performance of
masculinity. I guess I wouldn'tuse that language, you know, but
like, I'm doing a good job ofpretending that I'm really
masculine, so therefore womenwho are feminine would want me.
Yeah, and then in my 20s and30s, and even more in my 40s,

(58:24):
the more I've embraced all thesethings that I like taboo or
opposite or whatever, the moresecure I feel in myself, which I
am in a male body. So and I'd belike, Oh, you're such a such and
such type of man. I'm like, it'sfunny, because I just started
doing all the things that Iwasn't really meant to do as a

(58:45):
man, and I've become more full,which has made me more of a man.
Like, it's a the categories area mess, is what I'm trying to
say, yeah and yes. Exploringthem and anchoring the side that
you were supposed to is great,but unlocking the side that you
were not supposed to is going togive you massive returns. You
know,man, I just like, I love that

(59:06):
because, like, I kind of trackancient culture as, like, my
reference point, or culture in,in a sense, like these things
that have rich, rich culture,and I look at like African
culture, or I look at like,even, like, my lineage is back
to Ireland, and the Irishculture they'd seen. They never
stopped. They never shut up.

(59:27):
They don't shut up. Sing it, andit's like, there's such a beauty
to it. And they had arelationship with this, yeah,
with almost the mystery. Andthey would sing to it. They'd
like, they went through, youknow, really hard times, and
song was what they did toalchemize it, yeah? And that's
the way they move their grief.
And I think that that's a bigpart that's missing from a lot
of people's lives is like thesepractices that aren't masculine

(59:50):
or feminine. They're just a wayof moving Yeah, energy, yeah.
And that like at funerals, whenpeople like, don't. Let
themselves make noise or, orthey don't like, have songs that
allow energy to move, like movethrough the space. It becomes
this, we sterilize ourexistence. Yeah, and it's, it's
a bit of a tragedy in my in myopinion, it's,

(01:00:15):
it's such a thick layer ofrepression. And, you know, I'm
sure you're across this. It'skind of like the conscious, not
even conscious, like the hypermasculine, alpha bro, kind of
internet, podcasty world, youknow, yes, like, you know, rate
cheeks and what's your bodycount, all that stuff. Oh, it's
like, it's like they've refinedfragility to like a badge of

(01:00:40):
honor, you know, yes, of like,like, if I get pussy, I'm a
hero. But if she said, and it'dbe like, anyone who's had more
than three partners, is like,run through and I'm like, what
you want someone who's not evengood in bed, is that, what,
because you're so fuckingfragile that you need to be,
like, dominant. And it's justlike, it's like this inversion,

(01:01:01):
you know, of like, the thingthat we say it is, is what it's
not. It's like this, I'm analpha male. It's like, you're
bro, you're fucking terrified.
And to just loop back to wherewe started, you know, that world
has a real shamey Look atpolyamory, and it's mostly along
lines of, like, anyone who letstheir Bitch Fuck another man is
like, not a man. And it's like,oh, you have no idea the skill

(01:01:22):
and the embodiment and theability to meet your own
emotions that will be requiredto do that. But it's just such
an interesting inversion. Forme. It's almost like, if someone
tells you something isn'tmasculine, go do that thing and
get comfortable with it, and youwill, ironically be more
masculine. Yeah,that is the funniest bit. And
then you become and then thatthen attracts like. For me, what

(01:01:45):
I've found when I've when I'vedone that, I'm like, I'm gonna
go and do the thing that I'm notmeant to do, and when I've done
it, I then it's not a big dealanymore. Oh my god. And then I
can, then the relaxation that Ifeel in my nervous system, I
then become a space for morelike more of what I wanted in
the first place. So aboutseven years ago, I did a
workshop that was all men. And Ididn't really know this, but I

(01:02:08):
kind of had a clue, but I didn'tknow that. Basically, the bulk
of the week, in various forms,was us learning cock massage on
each other, right? Yeah, so Iprobably gave like 12 cock
massages that week, you know?
And I'm a lot more I'm still notreally super gay in my actual

(01:02:29):
sexual appetites, right? I wouldsay there's, there's little
percentages of, like, queernessand fluidity that has come into
my identity over time. But thenthis was really not the case,
like I was pretty much astraight dude who's into Tantra
and into this and that, but, youknow, whatever I'm going for,
I've gotten wasn't that, youknow, and I remember driving out

(01:02:50):
with the guy that I drove inwith, I was like, Do you feel
like, more gay or less gay thanwhen we got there? And it was
just like, we just laughed,because it was like, it was such
a shadow had been lifted. Oflike, you know, really teenage
stories. Of, like, if I do this,I'm gonna become gay, you know.
And, like, the funniest thingis, like, there was one gay dude

(01:03:13):
and everyone else was very, verystraight. So even though we were
doing body work and touchinggenitals, you know, we had like,
little kind of a temple nightone evening, and it was so it
was just dude sitting around. Itwas the same as, like, dude
sitting around with beer withoutthe beer, like there was
nothing. Wasn't like we were alllike cuddling and making out or
something. It was like justdudes sitting there being very

(01:03:36):
normal hetero dude bros, exceptwe had done like, some nature
ritual and then, like a cockmassage ritual that that
afternoon, but it hadn't openedup any like, gayness, which,
which, at the time, which soundsit's even hilarious that I'm
saying this, because it's awhile ago now, but at the time,
there was something in me waslike, Oh, this didn't, like,

(01:03:56):
make us, like we're not suddenlyleaning over and making out
because I gave you body worklike there's nothing so not so.
What was so wild was, in a way,nothing about my essence and my
desires had changed at all. Theonly thing that was different
was I had less stories aroundmale bodies being around each
other and genitals and touch. Itwas just like, Oh. Like, if I

(01:04:17):
want to be like a tantric healerperson, I'm going to touch
Janet, like, I opened up. I waslike, Okay, well, I'm going to
work with men and women. I'donly been like, I will only work
with women. And it's like, yeah,that's because you're still
personally invested in like,what does this mean? And as I
was driving away, I was like,ah, it literally means nothing.
It just means that the fearsthat I had as a sort of 13 year

(01:04:39):
old, 16 year old, were veryimmature. Like, what if we have
to sit next to each other? Maybethat's gay, you know, and it's
like there was that. So that wasthe level of intelligence that
was coming out of my body, oflike, well, if we do that,
that'd be gay, and then I don'twant to be gay because, because
what other school boys are gonnalaugh at you and bully you? It
wasn't even about like,sexuality. It was just about
like. Or being shamed or beingcategorized, yeah? And we drove

(01:05:03):
away and I was like, oh, like,Am I more gay less? It just
doesn't, just doesn't make anysense anymore that that was even
a thing. You know, it's not likethat story is actually just
dissolved. They just weren'tlinked together.
Yeah, just like nothing aboutthat was gay or not, in fact,
just that that line of thinkingand questioning just is really

(01:05:23):
childish, like it was just like,ah, like, if gay is someone who
was sexually attracted to andhas sex with other men, it's
like, I am not more that I'm notless that I'm just not really in
that dialog. And it was like,ah. So the main thing that
happened was those narrativesgot freed out of my body, I

(01:05:44):
guess, which was like, Oh,that's not what I thought it
would do, yeah. That'sum, that was like, for me, when
I put, when I got a butt plugand put in my ass, I was like,
What is this gonna make what iswhat does this now make me?
Right? And it literally like, Iwas like, nothing, nothing. It
doesn't make me anything, yeah,I was like, Ah, cool, all right,

(01:06:05):
like, my own finger, isn't thatgay? It's like, You're gay with
this. How would that work? Whatdoes that even mean, you know?
And it just like, it just like,like, it just made me like, kind
of chuckle. Ah, okay, cool,yeah. And now then I just went
about my life, yeah? And Idefinitely had more openness and
sensitivity to feeling all thosethings once I like, tune, to and
I was like, Oh, my, yeah, I canfeel better. But it's like, oh,

(01:06:25):
I didn't that story that Ithought it was going to amplify
or or make me that no longerexists, yeah.
And it's to me this, really,this is where it's at, you know,
to kind of link it back to thesex magic, tantra, polyamory,
all these things, what I'minterested in, beyond these
concepts, is the somatic, theliving, of something in the

(01:06:47):
body. You know, that's moreinteresting to me than, like,
yes, conceptually, I'mpolyamory, but you're like,
fucking all shut down andyou've, you know, or, you know,
monogamous people this or that.
It's like, what people canembody is much more relevant to
who I would want to be aroundthan what category they've
decided they're in or what theyidentify you know, I'm this kind

(01:07:08):
of spiritual person. It's like,oh Lord, just like, and I think
there's something for me that,you know, we're really in the
Age of Spiritual materialism,where we get these concepts and
we just make them part of ourpersonality. Our personality. We
build a business out of it. And,you know, I do this is, I'm not
shaming the whole thing, but ifI really deeply tune into what
spirituality is, it's actuallythe stripping away of concepts,

(01:07:31):
you know, not the collecting oflike, I've got this cool idea,
this sophisticated idea. I'mactually a tantrum baby. I'm a
Lemurian. Preach there. So it'slike, okay, you're fucking
mentally ill. But let's just putthat aside. I'm interested in
what I can embody, and differentpractices have opened me up more
and like, from that point ofview, like working on my
deadlift has changed me as muchas putting things in my ass or

(01:07:56):
eye gazing with like, they'veall done things to me that have
made me different, and some ofthem are not categorized as,
like spiritual, but for me as aagain, with this integration of
the shadow, like I was not anathlete or a gym person or
whatever. So in my 30s, I tookup, like, getting into weight
training and facing a lot oflike fears of like, the people I
used to hate were the ones, youknow, the jocks were my enemy.

(01:08:19):
And so if I lift weights, youknow, if I, if I lift a heavy
weight, will I become a jock?
And it's like, that's the sameas, like, if you stick something
your ass, will you become it'sso childish. And as soon as I
started doing it was like, Oh myGod. Like, I'm stronger, I'm
fitter, I feel better, I'm moreembodied. It's like, Yeah, that.
That is spiritual practice, youknow,

(01:08:40):
love it. Love a man. I'm feelingclose to complete. Is there
anything else that you feel weneed to traverse, or anything
else that's sort of sittingthere?
Um, nothing burning, if I'mhonest, I feel like we covered
some really good ground. Yeah,yeah. I
think yeah. Just want to, like,reiterate with the the
conversation that we've had, ifanyone's listening like, this

(01:09:00):
is, this is like beyond like,for me, this is like, taking a
look at what's beneath a lot ofthe stuff that's being shared
online right now. Yeah, but it'ssort of going another, another
layer deeper, and there's goingto be more and more layers. But
like, if you're someone who isidentified with something and it
becomes like, rigid, like, justlike, what Dane said is, like,
what's the opposite of that? Andcan you go and engage with it,

(01:09:21):
and find a way to meet it, tosee that it's not going to
actually change who youinherently are. At your core,
it's Yeah, and I guess, I guessthis is because, for me, like, I
work with wealth, I work withsexuality, I work with kind of,
like magic, slash the occult. Iwork a lot with, like Soul and
soul purpose. There's a, youknow, Shadow Work. There's this
collection of all these things.
But really, it stems from abelief that the really, the goal

(01:09:45):
is wholeness. Yeah, you know,the goal is not to be good. The
goal is not to win. The goal isnot to do all these things that
we're kind of conditioned intowhich are kind of quite lopsided
things. The goal for me is just,can I become more whole every.
Day every year that I'm aliveand that that, because that's
not what everyone is taught orwhat they're working towards,

(01:10:06):
that can produce someinteresting results. Like, he
just took up dance, but Ithought he was a kickboxer, and
it's like, yeah, the dude istrying to become more of a whole
being, yeah? And that also takesout, like, let's say you are
taking on these things that area little bit the opposite. You
don't have to become the best atthem. Yes, you know, you might
be the jujitsu Black Belt whotakes up fucking contact dance

(01:10:29):
or whatever as just as a littlecounterbalance, yeah, or the,
you know, the IT nerd who getsin a little bit intersexuality.
You don't have to become thetantra guru. But, like, there's
a such a high return on like,just one little droplet of that
in your potion will make you aricher, deeper human being. And
I think I know we haven't reallybeen talking from this point of

(01:10:50):
view, but I know it's there. Andwhen it comes to sex,
relationships, attraction, likethe polarity conversation is the
one that's popular, but there'sa deeper power than polarity,
which is wholeness. And like,wholeness is the most attractive
thing, and it also gets you moreease at polarity. Because if
I'm, if I'm all of it, sure youcan DOM me. I'm not cool. I'll

(01:11:12):
be you a little. I'll scream anddo what you tell me, actually,
now I'm going to Dom You.
Actually, I can be light.
Actually, I'm dark, actually,I'm in my mask. Actually, I'm
kind of feminine, like it's allavailable. So polarity is very
easy if you are not afraid to beall of yourself. But that
wholeness when it comes toattraction, both sexual, but
also, like business friends,whatever. Like people who are

(01:11:36):
fully developed are reallyenjoyable to be around, yes,
like, because we all inherentlywant that deep down, I think so
that that's, I think that's thefinal bit I want to drop, is
like, like, self actualization,becoming whole, realizing that
the soul or the essence of us iseverything. It's not a man or a
woman or a light or a dark or agoody or a baddie or whatever.

(01:11:59):
It's fucking everything. Andthat's, that's where I'm trying
to come from.
Fuck yeah. Thanks for sharing,man, this has been, yeah, I feel
like I've, I've taken so muchfrom this. So we've got a few
things coming up, bro, if youwanted to plant the seed, we put
everything in the show notes, ofcourse. But is there anything

(01:12:20):
that you want to invite peopleinto or share a little bit about
your work? Yeah, Igot a few things on the cook
that'll be all around for 2025so I have something called
permission, which is amentorship for conscious
leaders, people who want to,like, make a ripple in the
world, particularly around theenergy of, like, maybe you've
got something amazing, butyou're a little bit afraid to
get canceled, or you don't wantto be too much. Want to be too

(01:12:42):
much, or you you know you're ata certain level, but if you go
to the next level, it'll bescary. Like, I'm really good at
that, and I'm really good atsupporting people in that. So
that's called permission, andit's a it's an ongoing and I
also have something called thedark field, which is more 100
bucks a month, and it's aconnection to sex magic, self,
pleasure meditation, etc, likeevery month we do online, uh,

(01:13:04):
ritual. So for people who wantto connect more to that magical,
dark side, but not really darkside, like wholeness, that's
that's there. You can follow meon Instagram. I share all my
stuff there, and I just put outa song called magic is real,
which, you know, if you want tojust get the little microdose
and maybe change your worldviewa little bit, that's on Spotify,

(01:13:28):
you can listen to that. We'regoing to put all those in the
show notes. Man, so good toconnect and spend a bit of time
with you. Man, I feel like,Yeah, this is the beginning of,
yeah, a lot of coolconversations and yeah, a deeper
relationship. So, bro, Iappreciate you making the trip
down the mountain and, uh, forsharing your wisdom with us.
Thank you for having me, blessup, beautiful people, peace, yo,
yo, yo. Thank you so much fortuning in to another episode of

(01:13:53):
sex, love and everything inbetween. Now, if you'd like to
stay connected with Meg and I,you can head on over to
Instagram and follow me at theJacob O'Neal and where can
people find you lover,at B dot. Meg, dot. O amazing.
And yeah, guys, check out theshow notes for all other

(01:14:14):
information in regards to whatwe've got coming up. And yeah,
we're super, super grateful thatyou guys for taking the time to
listen in to this podcast. Ifyou do have any topics or any
questions like I said, hit us upon Instagram, and we'll see what
we can do. Apart from that, havea beautiful, beautiful rest of
your day. Thanks for being here.
Big, big. Love you.

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Ep 101: Conscious Relating: From Solo Poly to Sex Magic with Dane Tomas

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